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Carlton said: Thanks for your many answers to questions related to SDA history and theology. I agree with you on most things. I am particularly interested in two things:
Tom said: Thank you. Adventist Reform is for those like you, who want to know more about the Gospel, church history, and doctrine.
It is for those who understand that the SDA’s are not willing to tell the truth about much of anything.
It is for those who want to go forward to the New Covenant, not backwards to the Old Covenant.
Carlton said: 1. Where can I find statistics on the "Millions have gone through this same journey of spiritual discovery and disappointment." regarding the no. of people leaving the SDA church (in N. America?). ref: Index » Adventist Reform - Tom Norris » Leaving the SDA Church.
Tom Norris replied: Today, the SDA’s are unable to grow in North America because their doctrines are so convoluted, Old Covenant, and wrong.
In fact, the SDA’s are viewed in a very negative light, with the loudest criticism coming from former members.
See the following links that speak to this question:
Decline in attendance
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ndance.htm
membership decline
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ecline.htm
Attendance statistics
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … istics.htm
Future trends in the SDA church
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … church.htm
Carlton asked: 2. Isn't it the case that "the sabbath was made for man", is a reference to creation and Adam as a representative of mankind?
Consequently, the prophecy of Hosea 2:1 - 11 (specifically v11) fulfilled almost word for word in Colossians 2:8 - 16 (particularly v16) cannot refer to the weekly Sabbath since the weekly Sabbath is not, and never has been, "her" (Israel's) Sabbath. In other words, isn't it the case that God, speaking through Hosea, prophesied that Israel's Sabbaths would be put to an end and isn't it the case that Paul in Colossians 2:14 - 16 documents fulfillment and the implications of that fulfillment?
Tom replied: In the passage you cite, Jesus refers primarily to the original Sabbath that he made at Creation. He is not referring to the OC Sabbath of Moses, which was a temporary or “tutor” Sabbath of the Jews.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
As for the OT book of Hosea; there is a passage that predicts God will punish Israel for worshipping false Gods.
Hos. 2:11 “I will also put an end to all her gaiety,
Her feasts, her new moons, her sabbaths
And all her festal assemblies.
Hos. 2:12 “I will destroy her vines and fig trees,
Of which she said, ‘These are my wages
Which my lovers have given me.’
And I will make them a forest,
And the beasts of the field will devour them.
Hos. 2:13 “I will punish her for the days of the Baals
When she used to offer sacrifices to them
And adorn herself with her earrings and jewelry,
And follow her lovers, so that she forgot Me,” declares the LORD.
Here is depicted the destruction of Judaism, and the end of Israel as a Nation. So too the end of the Old Covenant Sabbath of Moses.
Moreover, the reference to “her Sabbaths” is a reference to the 7th day of the Moral law, even as it also includes all the ceremonial laws as well as the Temple and Levitical Priesthood. The passage is saying that Israel will be so totally destroyed, including their fields, that it will never exist again the way it was in the OT.
OT Judaism was destroyed in 70 AD. The Romans ended the Nation of Israel, including their Temple and religion. The Jewish Nation did not come back on the world scene until after WWII, -but not OC Judaism. It was destroyed when the Temple was razed. It could only come back if the Temple is rebuilt.
While the OC Sabbath of the Jews can be viewed as destroyed, that does not apply to the NC Sabbath of Christ, which is very different. Such a doctrine came to light in the 1st century, even as this same doctrine will return to the repentant church in the last days.
Note that the OT does not instruct the NT. Jesus clearly teaches a doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath for the church. One that is very different from what Moses taught.
What Jesus teaches in the Gospels about the New Covenant Sabbath is truth for the church, regardless what we think the OT may or may not say. What Jesus teaches in the Gospels about the Sabbath, or anything, cannot be trumped by the OT or any NT writer. The word of Christ is Gospel truth, not the word of Hosea.
As for Colossians, it does not say what many claim:
Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —
Col. 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance 2belongs to Christ.
This passage does not teach that there is no Sabbath doctrine for the church. Rather, it says no one is to “judge” how church members are observing the Sabbath and some of the festivals, like Passover. Nor should anyone, like the Judaizers in the church, pass judgment on how the Sabbath is observed.
Thus there is no Sabbath Police in the NT. Nor are there any rules or laws that prevent activity or work on the Sabbath, as in Judaism. Jesus gives all that follow him an exemption from the prohibition against work contained in the 4th Commandment.
This passage in Colossians actually shows there is a doctrine of the Sabbath for the church. It does not teach that there is no Sabbath for the church, nor does it explain or define the NC Sabbath. All must go to the Gospels for such instruction; directly to the Lord of the Sabbath.
The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242
Paul is not the Lord of the Sabbath. If anyone wants to understand the active and reformed Sabbath of Christ, they must go to Jesus in the Gospels and learn this true doctrine directly from him.
The Reformed Sabbath of Christ
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228
Carlton asked: 3. Isn't what you describe as "silly", regarding the discussion of the distinction and relevance of the moral and ceremonial laws, the basis of the discussion at the council at Jerusalem in Acts 15?
Tom said: Unfortunately, I often have to deal with those who ask useless, repetitive, and silly questions, designed not to find truth, but promote error and false doctrine. I find such questions silly and not serious. Don’t take this personally. Those to whom such remarks are directed get the point.
Here is an example of me using the word “silly”. I make no apologies for this word or for calling this religious charlatan a “con man.”
Tom Norris said: As for Amazing facts, they should be ashamed for teaching so much false doctrine and silly myth. Doug Batchlor is neither a theologian nor an Adventist historian. Rather, he is a smooth talker that finds comfort in the Old Covenant confusion of the SDA's. He is nothing more than a religious con man: a paid performer and public relations man that is following a cultic script written by the 20th century SDA's.”
Such wolves in sheep’s clothing do not deserve smooth words or congratulations for leading people away from the Gospel. Those who understand the Gospel must condemn them for all to see, so that the sheep may be warned.
Carlton said: I humbly request that having read your threads on the subject that we frame this as a Bible discussion. I am not interested in how wrong SDA doctrine is, or the historical development of the SDA theology. This might help people with similar questions.
Tom said: I make no apologies for promoting Adventist Reform and trying to save the dying and confused Advent Movement. The Adventists have much truth, and in fact, they are responsible for correcting the great error of post-millennialism, which the entire church has now correctly rejected thanks to Adventism.
Few people give the Adventist Movement proper credit for their correct doctrine about the 2nd Coming, which no had support in the early 19th century. Thus what all denominations teach today about the 2nd Coming is a basic result of the Advent Movement.
The SDA’s are also correct to claim that Sunday is a very false doctrine and that only the 7th day can be the Lord’s Day for the church.
They are even correct about the State of the Dead, which is doctrine that played a role in the Reformation, specifically by the great Reformer, Martin Luther, as he attacked the error of purgatory and indulgences. But few know this fact.
Luther and the State of the Dead
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=236
All must understand that the many errors of the SDA’s do not nullify or remove the truths that they discovered. In order for the Advent community to go forward, they must hold onto what is true and remove what is false.
The Advent Movement is all about the end of the world; such an eschatological emphasis is correct and timely.
They also predicted that at the end of time, the church would repent and understand the Gospel, just before the Great Time of Trouble.
Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.
Rev. 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;
The Advent mission to prepare the church for the 2nd Coming is noble and heaven sent. Too bad they failed so miserably to understand the Gospel and eschatology correctly. Today they don’t even understand the Judgment or the Sabbath correctly, even though these are their most featured doctrines.
Carlton said: Forgive me for pointing out my view that there is no such thing as a silly question or discussion. The sincere searcher after truth will have questions. Those of us that have a desire to impart our understanding of scripture should encourage sincere enquiry regardless of how "silly" it might appear.
Tom said: Like I said, there are many who are not sincere. I have had discussions with those who are very dishonest about the basic facts of the Gospel Story. They don’t ask honest questions, but rather, they are trying to defend false doctrine and attack the Gospel. You are not in this category, so don’t worry.
Ask whatever you like about theology and church history.
Carlton said: Might I also point out that if you disagree with me, or my understanding, I will not call you or your position names. I do welcome disagreement though - it forces me to revisit the scriptures.
Tom said: Good to hear that you are an honest seeker for Gospel truth. But don’t think for a moment that Jesus or the Apostles did not “call people names.” This takes place whenever the genuine Gospel is preached or taught. Why? Because the Gospel attracts critics and enemies, and they need to be dealt with in a public manner, just as Jesus and Paul demonstrate in the NT.
Jesus used very harsh language against those, like the Pharisees, who refuted his Gospel. (See Matt 23, etc).
Jesus called the Jewish leaders many nasty names, in public, for all to hear, such as: hypocrites, fools, blind guides, brood of vipers, murderers, liars, etc.
Paul also branded the Judaizers with a very insulting name that featured only a small part of their false doctrine. Thus he called them the “Circumcision Party.” But this was not what they called themselves.
Why?
Because this was an insulting name, one that made reference to a painful and private religious practice, - one which was viewed with disdain and horror by the Gentiles. It was a very derogatory and disrespectful name, and Paul knew this fact. He was trying to discredit them because they were attacking his Gospel.
Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.
Gal. 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Paul was not content to just label this wayward church group as the “so called” Circumcision experts. No, he also called them “dogs” and “evil workers” because they were promoting a false Gospel as well as a false, painful, and unnecessary, circumcision in order to be saved.
He also called them “rebellious, empty talkers, and deceivers.”
So much for thinking it wrong to call people names within the context of a Gospel discussion. It is obviously not. Neither Jesus nor Paul were making any errors by calling out their enemies with insults and fitting names.
The NT shows that “name calling” is not only practiced by Jesus and Paul, and the other apostles, but that it is necessary to identify the “empty talkers” and the enemies of the Gospel for all to see.
Eph. 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands —
Phil. 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
Phil. 3:3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
Titus 1:10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
Titus 1:11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.
Only those who dig in their heels and fight the Gospel get called bad names. This is what Jesus and the NT teaches and this is what I try to follow. However, I try to refrain from calling people “dogs” and “liars,” but it is clear that such names were used in defense of the Gospel.
But don’t worry. You do not seem to be an enemy of the Gospel, but rather, a seeker for truth, even one under persecution by the SDA’s. Ask any questions you want. I doubt there will be any need to call you out for being dishonest with the Word.
Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Carlton said: Finally, to be fair to you since I have your biography, I have been dis-fellowshipped from the SDA church for "not keeping my private views to myself". I still attend the SDA church, in my view the closest to the truth of the Bible. Everything I believe is based solely on personal Bible study. I do not have any theological training.
Tom said: I have theological training and many years of study into Adventism. The SDA church does not allow free speech, nor do they want to hear any correction from anyone. They have become great deceivers, enemies of Christ, full of arrogance, false doctrine, and legalism. Yes. They are even liars, teaching doctrines they know to be false. (Note the harsh language, it is intentional, biblical, and appropriate.)
I am amazed you still go to an SDA church after they dis-fellowshiped you. However, perhaps you can help them understand Gospel Reform?
Today, there are far more former SDA’s not in church, then there are members in North America. So welcome to this large crowd of those who have been forced to leave Adventism because of so much error and corruption. (Although you have not gone far).
Even though my name is still on the church books, I refuse to attend an SDA church or support them in any way. They have far too much false doctrine and corruption.
I suggest you seriously consider Adventist Reform; it represents the correct path for the Adventism.
Adventist Reform Agenda
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=11
Carlton said: I pray that God continues to bless your ministry as I feel that you are trying to effect a reformation in the hearts and minds of all believers.
Tom replied: Thank you for your questions and your support. The end of the world is closer than ever, and so too is our inevitable death. Now is no time to ignore the Gospel or eschatology or to become confused about how to obtain Eternal Life.
It is time for the Advent Movement to go forward…
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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Carlton said: Thanks very much for your lucid and verbose response. I appreciate and understand the appropriateness of calling people by their names following full discussion. I do note that Jesus' name calling occurred at the end of his ministry not at the beginning.
Tom replied: It is wrong to assume that Jesus only got tough on his critics at the end of his ministry. It was really something that took place from the very beginning and all through his short ministry.
In fact, Mark 2 contains the first Sabbath debate, while Mark 3.5 shows Jesus getting angry with the unbelieving Jews very early on in his ministry. And Mark 3.6 shows the Jews plotting to “destroy” Jesus and his Gospel.
Do not think for a moment that Jesus was free from the anger and hate of the Jews until the end of his ministry. No. No. From the beginning of the Gospel, there were enemies that attacked it.
Moreover, the Sabbath debates started very early and so too the plots to “destroy Jesus.” Thus the Jews became angry from the start, and Jesus also became “angry” and fought back from the start.
So too, should those today who promote the genuine Gospel of Christ. They must also defend the Gospel with tough talk and passion against those who hate and distort the Gospel.
Mark 2:24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”
Mark 2:25 And He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry;
Mark 2:26 how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?”
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man nor the Sabbath.
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Mark 3:1 He entered again into a synagogue; and a man was there whose hand was withered.
Mark 3:2 They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him.
Mark 3:3 He said to the man with the withered hand, “Get up and come forward!”
Mark 3:4 And He *said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to kill?” But they kept silent.
Mark 3:5 After looking around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, He *said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored.
Mark 3:6 The Pharisees went out and immediately began conspiring with the Herodians against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.
Notice how Christ became “angry” with the whole crowd. The Gospels record that Jesus “looked around at them with anger.” What does this mean for us today? It means we too should be angry with those, like Doug Batchelor, who fight against the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath.
We too should be angry in defense of the Gospel, pointing out in public the errors of those who are fighting against God and his Gospel.
This is no time for smooth words. The world is close to Judgment, and close to the return of Christ.
It is time for the paradigm of the Three Angels Messages, to go forward.
It is time for the Adventist Community to get “angry” at their religious leaders for teaching a false view of the Sabbath, and a worthless doctrine about the Gospel. In fact, the SDA leaders have been deceiving everyone for years about Ellen White and church history. Enough is enough. For all those who seek truth, and want Eternal Life, it is enough. The SDA leaders are to be repudiated and condemned, just like Jesus and Paul demonstrate in the NT. They are enemies of Christ, just like the Jews they emulate.
Carlton said: My main reason for responding though is, in response to the connection between Hosea 2:11 and Colossians 2:16 you said:
"Here is depicted the destruction of Judaism, and the end of Israel as a Nation. So too the end of the Old Covenant Sabbath of Moses."
My follow up question is what Sabbath did Moses have? The 7th Day weekly Sabbath was not attributed to him but to the ten commandments on stone. Israel's sabbaths that were to be done away with (in terms of legal requirement to keep them) even though it is good to keep Israel's holidays in comparison to Pagan holidays.
So back to the point. You seem to suggest that there was a 7th Day Moses' sabbath that has done away with. Could you help me to understand this point more.
Tom said: The Old Covenant Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, which is also referred to part of the Law of Moses, was CHANGED by Christ into a new and active 7th day Sabbath. While the 7th day was holy in the OC, with a forced rest, not so in the NC.
All will have to study the teachings of Christ to understand his view of the Sabbath. What the SDA’s have been teaching, is not fully correct. They do have the right day, but not the correct doctrine. Let all condemn what the SDA’s teach about the Sabbath (and many other things). They are dead wrong, just like the Jews they emulate.
The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228
SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836
The Jews hated Jesus for making such a change to the Sabbath law and to the Priesthood, and thus they rejected not only the reformed Gospel Sabbath, but the entire Gospel as well.
If you study the Gospels without the many myths of the SDA’s, it will become apparent what Jesus is doing with the Sabbath. He is not changing it to Sunday, or in any way promoting what the SDA’s teach. (They have embraced the Sabbath of the Jews and the Old Covenant, not the NC Sabbath of Christ, for which they must repent.)
Nor does Christ promote this utter nonsense called NCT (New Covenant Theology), which teaches that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath and thus abolished the weekly day of worship, changing it into an Every Day spiritual Sabbath of rest. Of course this myth is promoted by those who meet every Sunday. Which underscores the hypocrisy of this anti-Sabbatarian crowed, who is so passionate for false doctrine.
NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
Carlton said: Re my attendance at church every Sabbath; I feel it far better to attempt reform from within than from without.
Tom said: I felt the same way at one time and worked from within the SDA church for many years. But this can only go so far, because if you really promote the Gospel, you will be asked to leave. And many have done just that.
Moreover, those who promote Gospel Reform in the SDA church have no legal standing to do so any more than did Paul, who was thrown out of the synagogue for his Gospel views.
Paul then set up a Gospel venue, right next door to the synagogue so that he could continue to promote his correct views. Of course the Jews caused trouble and chased Paul out of town, but even so, the Gospel precedent has been set for our edification. The Gospel is not to be stopped because of those who repudiate it. It must still be preached.
The SDA’s are great at persecuting their critics and sending away those who try to bring them the Gospel. (Dr. Ford is a good example.) Do not be fooled by the SDA’s. They can be as mean and nasty as the Jews.
Why? Because like the Jews, they also hate the Gospel. Those who understand and embrace the Gospel are not to be controlled or silenced by those who don’t.
Carlton said: I have been very tempted to set up on my own (there is no real alternative in the UK but there are a number of tiny sabbath keeping congregations growing up of ex SDAs.
Tom said: Go for it! The Gospel is not to be stopped by the SDA’s. Go forward and promote New Covenant Adventism.
Adventist Reform is the proper path for the honest at heart within the SDA Community
Adventist Reform - Tom Norris
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=11
Carlton said: Many thanks for the references to the problems of SDA membership. I want to attempt to show the leaders that while they ignore the exodus they jeopardize the future of the world church.
Tom said: Ha! Don’t not be fooled by the Gospel hating SDA’s. They have rejected the Gospel with both hands, and they have no plans to repent. They are corrupt and full of double-talk.
So I think you are wasting your time trying to educate the SDA leaders about anything, much less the Gospel. They don’t want to hear any criticism of their many false doctrines, nor will they tolerate any such instruction any more than did the Sabbath keeping, tithe paying, 1st century Jews.
Glacier View was a great opportunity for the SDA’s to remove their many myths and false doctrines. Here was a time when the top scholars of the church argued for truth and honesty in both doctrine and church history. But the leaders voted for myth and error. Then they exiled Dr. Ford and wrote a false creed called the 27 Fundamentals.
Nothing has changed since 1980. The SDA leaders have no intention of repenting for what they did at Glacier View. Thus they stand guilty and condemned, blind to the Gospel and self-destructing for all to see.
Carlton said: If they are interested in having a future they have to stop sweeping things under the carpet. I am aware of many members that want to seriously address the issues. They want to talk not be silenced.
Tom replied: Millions have left the SDA’s after Glacier View. Most all are tired of the endless double-talk, corruption, and error. This is why the church cannot grow in North America or Europe. It only grows in third world countries, where people do not have the knowledge or education to know what they are doing. So the SDA’s prey on those who don’t know any better, selling damaged goods that have been rejected in America and Europe.
I live close to the SDA headquarters. I have met with the leaders over the years. It is a waste of time. They don’t understand the Gospel, nor do they want to try. They are just like the 1st century Jews.
Carlton said: One final thing. You mentioned Doug Bachelor. Allow me to relate an interaction I had with him when he came to the UK.
Tom replied: Doug Bachelor is a Gospel hating Jew. So too Clifford Goldstein. Both men are great legalists, enemies of Christ who pretend they support him.
No one should be fooled by these confused, self-serving agents of deception, they are paid by the church to teach false doctrine.
I have had many interactions with Goldstein, who is a very dishonest man. He has refused to have a public discussion about the issues with Tom Norris, and so too the creepy Doug Batchelor. These men are great double-talkers and full of false doctrine, let all beware.
Carlton said: I was most disappointed. He was fully aware that the members are distributing the final events DVD unaware that what they are inadvertently doing is promoting the rapture and was not prepared to let people know, revise the DVD, or remove the error from circulation.
Tom said: Those who hate the Gospel will always disappoint those who do. Amazing Facts should be called “Amazing Errors & Myths. There is almost no truth to anything that the SDA’s are saying today. And Amazing Facts is the worst of the worst. All those who embrace the genuine Gospel must repudiate and condemn such error.
In conclusion, it is time for all in the SDA Community to wake up and understand that Adventism has gone very bad and corrupt.
It is time for a new Adventist Movement that understands and embraces the genuine Gospel, which includes the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris, for New Covenant Adventism
Offline
Tom said some time ago on this thread:
5. NCT is based on the myth that Paul is the Lord of the Sabbath.
So Col 2:16, 17 are not inspired words. You have this conflict between Jesus and Paul. Paul was commissioned by Jesus to spread His Gospel after visions and instruction by Jesus Himself for three years in the Arabia desert.
First note how Jesus commissioned Paul, that is if you believe Paul's words:
Acts 26: 2 “On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[a] ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’
“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
and further about Paul and how he received the Gospel he was to spread:
Gal 1:11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.
18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.
You demean Paul by your remark. He was to be shown "new stuff" that had not been given to the other apostles as he promised He and the Holy Spirit would do. Your remark borders on blasphemy, and yes I know what the word means as you should:
: great disrespect shown to God or to something holy
: something said or done that is disrespectful to God or to something holy
I was shocked to see your comment. Christ's remarks of being Lord of the Sabbath means He has authority over it and can determine how it is used, exhalted or fulfilled. Christ was still under the Old Law and in order to be our Savior had to obey the Decalogue, centerpiece of the Old Covenant, until all was accomplished and fulfilled.
Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
What did Christ mean on the cross, "It is finished."?
Col 2: 16, 17 says what happened to the Sabbath. Paul is declaring what he was shown by Jesus. If you don't believe that you make yourself more important than Paul and even Jesus who gave him that passage. I pity you, but it has revealed your problem and possibly SDAs in general. Paul is not taken seriously by either of you. Certainly no REFORM can be based on that!!! WOW!!!!
Last edited by bob_2 (10-01-13 2:36 am)
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Bob, why don’t you stick to your NCT thread? You have your hands full trying to get some points on that thread. Do you think it wise to keep attacking AR when your own position is in such trouble?
You act like the Republicans, who can’t seem to comprehend that they lost the last election. So they deny it and pretend they should be in charge anyway. They are delusional and so too are you.
Bob said: Tom said some time ago on this thread: 5. NCT is based on the myth that Paul is the Lord of the Sabbath.
Tom replied: Yes. This observation is accurate. Those who support NCT do so under the false assumption that Jesus did not fully articulate or teach a NC Sabbath doctrine for the church.
Armed with this fiction, they then look to Paul, who has said almost nothing about the Sabbath. But the few words he speaks is twisted into a very specific, full blown doctrine of the Sabbath, which is not taught anywhere in the Bible, much less by Christ, the Lord and defender of the Sabbath.
Let all understand: Jesus teaches an active, 7th day, Sabbath for the church in the Gospels. There are scores of texts that deal specifically with the Sabbath, which is true doctrine for the church.
Bob 2 said: So Col 2:16, 17 are not inspired words.
Tom said: First, while Paul is inspired by the Holy Spirit, you are not. So you are having a hard time understanding what he says about anything, much less the Sabbath.
Second, no one speaks with more authority about the Gospel or the Sabbath then Jesus. So let’s get this fact straight.
Paul is a servant of Jesus. He is not free to invent any doctrine, nor was he given a different Gospel or any different doctrine from what all the apostles were taught by Christ.
If anyone wants to understand the NC Sabbath, they must go the creator of this doctrine, which is Jesus, not Paul.
Third, any who tries to do an end run around Christ and the Gospels, ignoring what he teaches about the Sabbath or anything, are anti-Christ.
Those who run to Paul, thinking he teaches something that they want to hear, are self-condemned. They are running from Christ on purpose, deliberately avoiding the many passages where Jesus teaches his reformed, NC Sabbath. Such behavior is wretched and wrong.
1Cor. 1:11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you.
1Cor. 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”
1Cor. 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
1Cor. 3:4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men?
1Cor. 3:5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.
1Cor. 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one, which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Paul is clear that Jesus defines the Gospel, which includes what he teaches about the NC Sabbath. Not Paul. Jesus lays the “foundation” for all Gospel teaching, including the doctrine of the Sabbath. Those who refuse to go to Jesus and learn the Gospel Sabbath from him, are not following Christ. They are only confused pretenders, who think Paul is the Lord of the Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: You have this conflict between Jesus and Paul.
Tom replied: Ha! NCT has set up a great conflict between Christ and Paul over the Sabbath. They pretend Paul is the Lord of the Sabbath, while at the same time, they pretend Jesus has nothing to say in the matter.
Then they claim Paul supports their Every Day Sabbath nonsense, case closed. Jesus is ignored and marginalized, as if his Sabbath teaching do not exist and do not count.
Such blasphemy and manipulation of the Word is outrageous. NCT is anti-Christ double-talk for the trite and stupid who can’t read the Gospels correctly. Those who embrace this poison are lost.
Bob 2 said: Paul was commissioned by Jesus to spread His Gospel after visions and instruction by Jesus Himself for three years in the Arabia desert.
Tom said: You are wasting your time trying to show that Paul is the Lord of the Gospel or the Sabbath. He is neither. Jesus is the head theologian of the church, not Paul, Peter, or James. Only Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath and its original creator when the world was made. Those who fail to listen to what Jesus teaches, are doomed.
Bob 2 said: First note how Jesus commissioned Paul, that is if you believe Paul's words:
Tom said: This proves nothing about NCT; much less that Paul is superior to Jesus. Note that Jesus “commissioned” Paul. Much like he did to many others during his ministry. It is the superior who commissions the inferior. Jesus is superior to Paul in every way possible, including what he teaches about the Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: You demean Paul by your remark.
Tom replied: Wrong. I support what Christ teaches, who is superior to Paul. And I also support Paul, who agrees that Jesus is superior to all. You support neither Christ nor Paul.
It is the NCT crowd that demeans Christ at every opportunity, pretending he has nothing to teach about the Sabbath, when that is not the case whatsoever. Then they try to elevate Paul as an authority on the Sabbath, when he only says a few words.
Such evil and dishonest manipulation of the NT speaks volumes about this confused group, many of which are former SDA’s.
Bob 2 said: ‘He was to be shown "new stuff" that had not been given to the other apostles as he promised He and the Holy Spirit would do.
Tom said: Wrong. Paul was shown no new Gospel doctrine as you claim. Where do you get these absurd positions? There is only one Gospel, and one Gospel Sabbath, and it is the one that Christ teaches in the Gospels.
Those who do not believe this point are not Christians. They are only pretending and wasting their time. They have no hope at the Judgment because they have repudiated the Gospel of Christ. Sad.
Bob 2 screamed: Your remark borders on blasphemy, and yes I know what the word means, as you should:
: great disrespect shown to God or to something holy
: something said or done that is disrespectful to God or to something holy
Tom replied: Get over yourself. You don’t know the Gospel or the teachings of Christ. Sorry to be the one to tell you. I suggest that you retire from religious discussion until you can get a better grasp on Gospel doctrine and hermeneutics. You are wasting everyone’s time with your repetition of error and silly nonsense.
Bob 2 said: Christ's remarks of being Lord of the Sabbath means He has authority over it and can determine how it is used, exhalted or fulfilled.
Tom said: This was no useless “remark” as you pretend. Rather, Jesus was telling the Jews that he had full authority to make changes to the Sabbath. This is the context of his “remark.”
Jesus is not saying that he does not have anything to teach about the Sabbath, or that he is going to send everyone to Paul to understand the NC Sabbath. No. He is saying that all should pay careful attention to what he teaches about the Sabbath.
When will you repent and take Jesus seriously, listening to what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath?
Bob 2 said: Christ was still under the Old Law and in order to be our Savior had to obey the Decalogue, centerpiece of the Old Covenant, until all was accomplished and fulfilled.
Tom said: Sorry Bob, but your spin on the Gospel Story is absurd and outrageous. There is no hope for you if you continue to take such liberties with the NT. I know that the SDA’s trained you well to manipulate the Bible to make it say what you want to hear, but such dishonest methodology will not result in Gospel truth.
Bob 2 said: What did Christ mean on the cross, "It is finished."?
Tom said: He did not mean the Sabbath was finished, which is what you want to hear.
Bob 2 said: Col 2: 16, 17 says what happened to the Sabbath.
Tom replied: Here we go again with Paul being the Lord of the Sabbath. Those who think Paul explains “what happened to the Sabbath,” much less in this very short passage, have fallen not only from grace, they have also fallen away from reality and into anti-Gospel delusions.
Bob 2 said: Paul is declaring what he was shown by Jesus.
Tom said: The text does not say what you claim about the Sabbath, much less does it “explain” the NC Sabbath of Christ. All must go to Jesus in the Gospels to get a detailed articulation of the Gospel Sabbath from Christ. And it will take much more than two verses!
Those who refuse to learn the NC Sabbath from Christ, are not followers of Christ. They are only pretenders, leading others away from Christ. NCT is anti-Christ garbage.
However, Adventist Reform is based on the Gospel teachings of Christ. Paul also supports this same Gospel. Those who want Eternal Life must follow Christ, including what he teaches about the Gospel Sabbath.
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, your remarks really don't help. Christ Himself told the disciples He had much more to tell them that they could not bear.
Luke 24:44 He said to them,
“This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
and also note:
John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Do you believe Tom that if Jesus had said that the Sabbath was not going to have the role it had where a person was put to death for not honoring it, that the disciples could bear that?? To say, nothing in the writing Apostles had already been stated by Jesus, is to call Jesus a liar, "....more than you can now bear". Tom you are wrong on this point and do not know what you are saying. No where does Jesus or the Apostles hint at a Reformed Sabbath.
Last edited by bob_2 (10-01-13 8:06 pm)
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Bob 2 said: Tom, your remarks really don't help. Christ Himself told the disciples He had much more to tell them that they could not bear.
Tom replied: It was the Gnostics that claimed Jesus taught a secret Gospel. Thus they wrote new Gospels, full of myth and error. Have you become a Gnostic?
You need to understand that the four Gospels contain the genuine NC teachings of Christ. They are full and complete, with no new doctrines to come in the future as you pretend.
Deny this and you deny Christ.
There were no secret doctrines given to mankind after the cross, much less about the Sabbath or the Judgment.
Sorry.
Bob 2 asked: Do you believe Tom that if Jesus had said that the Sabbath was not going to have the role it had where a person was put to death for not honoring it, that the disciples could bear that??
Tom said: Jesus taught his NC Sabbath from the very beginning of his ministry. The apostles seemed fine with it. It was the Jewish leaders that went crazy.
Stop trying to change the Gospel Story to make it fit with NCT error.
Bob 2 said; To say, nothing in the writing Apostles had already been stated by Jesus, is to call Jesus a liar, "....more than you can now bear".
Tom said: Bob, you are a fool and a liar. You have no business trying to pretend you are a theologian. You are not. You don’t know what you are saying, nor do you have any idea what Jesus teaches or why.
Bob 2 said: Tom you are wrong on this point and do not know what you are saying. No where does Jesus or the Apostles hint at a Reformed Sabbath.
Tom replied: Sorry Bob. One of us is lost in the woods, and it is not me. I suggest that you stick to your confused thread about NCT and continue to make a fool of yourself in your own section.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Subject: 7 Irrefutable Points Prove the IJ FALSE!
Question from Carlton: Although I agree with most of your IJ “irrefutables,” - (I do reserve judgment on the "celestial judgment" point, Daniel 7:26). We can discuss that another time.) I cannot see that the New Testament supports your irrefutable point 7:
Tom Norris Answered: First off, let’s understand the context and background of these 7 Points.
This list was used in a short debate with an SDA Evangelist, Herb Kersten, who claimed he could defend and rehabilitate the IJ. Of course, he could do no such thing. He ran away for all to see, refusing to address any of these 7 Points.
Here are the links below:
IJ Discussion: Tom Norris & Herb Kersten
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1173
Tom Norris vs Herb Kersten
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … s-herb.htm
For Tom Norris
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … rris-1.htm
Second, these 7 Points can each STAND ALONE. In other words, it does not take a combination to prove the IJ false. No. It only takes the first point to prove this theological fact. And thus the debate is over before it begins, even if there were no other points.
All 6 points, disprove the IJ, with the exception of #7. This last point is really guilt by association, and does not in and of itself, disprove the IJ. But it makes a necessary point. Moreover, it is irrefutable that there is a long list of false doctrines associated with the IJ.
But even so, I admit #7 does not prove the IJ wrong, just that it keeps bad company. So the IJ is proven wrong 6 X’s and not 7. Either way, it is dead and disproven many times over.
I repeat: the IJ is disproven by the 1st point alone, without needing additional help. And so too all the other points, except #7, which is also true, but it does not really disprove the IJ. It only proves what bad company it keeps.
Here are the 7 Points:
** 7 Irrefutable Points Proving the IJ False **
1. Jesus does not support the SDA interpretation of Dan 8:14; He embraces another view, which all that follow Christ must also embrace.
2. The Pre-Advent Judgment of the Church cannot be in the OT or the book of Daniel. If the PAJ exists at all, which it does, it must be found in the NT. Only the NT can define Gospel doctrine for the church, not the OT.
3. The PAJ of the last church is found in Rev 3: 14. It is not found in the OT book of Daniel as the SDA’s claim. Here is the true doctrine of the Pre-Advent Judgment, which applies to every church and denomination today, including the SDA’s!
4. Neither the OT nor the NT supports a “Celestial Judgment” (IJ) to examine the believer’s sanctification. There is no such Judgment in the Bible. The IJ is an error, and no amount of double-talk from the SDA’s can change the theological or historical facts.
5. No serious scholars or historians support the IJ, nor has any church or denomination ever embraced this teaching, except for the SDA’s, and most of them now repudiate this doctrine, including their best scholars, like Dr. Ford and Raymond Cottrell. The SDA’s are being very dishonest to pretend otherwise.
6. While Traditional, Takoma Park Adventism defines the IJ as a fundamental “pillar” of the Advent Movement, anchored in Rev 14: 7. This was never true. Not one Pioneer, including Ellen White or Uriah Smith ever made such a claim. In fact, there is no such “pillar” in any of the Three Angels Messages, nor is this doctrine the reason why Adventists exist, as many have been indoctrinated.
The doctrine of the 2nd Coming as the Day of Judgment is the reason why the Advent Movement came into existence. Rev 14: 7 was only interpreted as being the Judgment of the 2nd Coming. The later developing IJ, (1857) had zero to do with the doctrinal development of any the Three Angels Messages, which pillars had already been erected by 1847.
7. The doctrine of the IJ is associated with long list of additional false, legalistic doctrines from the SDA’s, such as tithing, OC Sabbath keeping, Jewish food laws and perfectionism, just to name a few.
The IJ is not a stand-alone error, but one of many that must also be repudiated.
The IJ repudiates the Gospel and marginalizes the 2nd Coming, which is the real Judgment pillar in the 1st Angels Message. It refutes the Gospel and the Foundational pillars of Historic Adventism, which means it must be repudiated by anyone who claims to embrace the Three Angels Messages.
Q1. Can you let me know some more of the 'false' doctrines of SDAs?
Tom replied: The SDA’s are full of error about the Law and the Gospel. Which is why their view of the Sabbath is also false, and so too their views on eschatology. Sunday laws do not start the Time of Trouble as they teach.
While they are correct to claim there must be a “pre-Advent Judgment,” they are wrong to think it is the IJ. The real PAJ has eluded them.
Moreover, the SDA’s are wrong about the Lord’s Supper. They use grape juice, which is not the same as wine, which is the only drink authorized for the Eucharist by Christ. The Adventist doctrine of abstinence, which controls their practice of the Lord’s Supper, is not only very wrong, it is Muslim doctrine and they do not even know it.
This is a rather long list, but it keeps growing because the modern SDA’s have also embraced an OC, tithe based, hierarchical, Roman Catholic organizational system, which is against the Gospel. They are very wrong to practice tithe, as if it was a NC doctrine. Such error further proves they don’t understand the New Covenant.
Then to underscore how OC they think, they also teach that it is wrong for a woman to be ordained. In other words, they think only a man can be a genuine Pastor (or Priest) and only a man can be the head of the SDA church. Such outdated, Old Covenant views are outrageous, sexist, and against the Gospel.
Women's Ordination
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=880
About the only doctrine the modern SDA’s have correct is the State of the Dead. But even so, they have no idea that this teaching was a Reformation doctrine, promoted by Luther.
The SDA’s also have many false and confused views about church history and the Reformation, including their own church history, which they have failed to fully or honestly disclose. Thus the SDA’s are very dishonest and manipulative, full of corruption, fraud, and false doctrine.
No doubt there are more errors and false doctrines that could be named, but this long list is sufficient to make the point.
No wonder the SDA’s are confused, divided, and self-destructing; they need to REPENT before it is too late.
Too bad they are acting like the Jews, who also pretended that they had no false doctrine and also refused to embrace the Gospel.
The Top 10 Reforms the SDA Church Needs Per Tom Norris
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=982
Q2. Although the tithing system of the SDA church is unbiblical. According to Deut 14:29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
Don't we Christians still have an obligation to take care of the stranger, fatherless and widow as suggested in James 1:27?
Therefore isn't the concept of tithing still a good concept as opposed to a 'false' doctrine? Isn't it the basis for charitable work still practiced at heart by the true Christian?
Answer: First off, the Old Testament does not instruct the New Testament. Just because the Jews practiced circumcision and Temple sacrifices, that does make it doctrine for the New Covenant Church.
Moreover, many Old Covenant teachings, like tithe and the Levitical Priesthood, were banished and not permitted to be part of Church doctrine.
Who is anyone to change What Christ and his apostles teach?
Second, the “concept” of tithe is against the Gospel. Period. Which is why the apostolic church never practiced it as the dishonest SDA’s teach.
The SDA’s are making fools of themselves with this nonsense and doctrinal fraud. But the Adventists, like most others, love money, and they make $$ BILLIONS on the false doctrine of NC tithe. So they have chosen money over the Gospel. Just like the Jews.
No Eternal Life for anyone who is so foolish to embrace the OC doctrine of tithe. They are only proving that they do not understand the Gospel.
Let me also point out that the SDA tithe does not go to help anyone but those in leadership position. Tithe is for church pastors and leaders, not for the poor.
Thus while the SDA’s have brought in $$ BILLIONS and BILLIONS from tithe, they only help themselves. They have no record of helping the poor or anyone but themselves. They are perhaps the most unhelpful denomination. Very selfish and self-serving.
Tithe Unequal
Tithe is for a two-class system: The higher class, the Levites, received financial support and honor from the lower class. This was the way the OC worked.
Thus tithe supports a separate priesthood, a class of elites that are empowered to speak for God and control religion. This class ended up oppressing the people, rejecting the Gospel, and killing the Messiah. This is the end result of tithe.
The SDA’s have also ended up doing the same thing. Tithe in the church is evil and wrong. It empowers a handful of men to control everyone and all doctrine. It is a recipe for disaster. Just look around and see what has happened to the SDA’s. There is no free speech or free press within Adventism. Everything is controlled, censored, and manipulated by those in charge so that they stay in charge.
The SDA’s are wretched and ruined, rebels against the Gospel of Christ.
The Fraud of Church Tithing
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=239
The church cannot have two classes, or even two theological factions. All are Priests in the NC. Both men and women. All are equal in Christ and Priests of God. With such full equality, there can be no tithe, which is designed to support an unequal, two –class religious system.
It is not worthwhile to pretend tithe in the church is a good thing. Tithe is very false and very bad. Those who practice it, are proving that they do not understand nor embrace the Gospel. They are only supporting rebellion against the Gospel.
Tithe is dangerous anti-Christ doctrine that supports an anti-Gospel system. The Jews and now the SDA’s have proven this for all to see.
Furthermore, this idea that tithe is needed to fund the church is absurd. Why? Because the Church was started, and prospered, WITHOUT TITHE. So church history sets the precedent and proves that tithe is not needed, even as it was never promoted or practiced by the apostolic church.
Contrary to the false teaching of the SDA’s, the church never practiced tithe or in any way promoted this Old Covenant doctrine. The Adventists have been lying to people for generations with this utter nonsense that claims Jesus and the Church embraced tithe.
The love of money creates great liars. Congratulation SDA’s, you are one of the most dishonest, anti-Gospel denominations in the world.
Tithe in the NC, - IS UTTERLY FALSE. It never happened. The NT is clear on this point and thus the SDA’s need to tell the truth and repent for their false and outrageous doctrine of tithe. A doctrine that proves they are following the OC and not the NC.
Those who teach such myth and error about the Gospel, whether about tithe or anything else, will not enter the kingdom of God.
At this point, the SDA’s are locked out of the Kingdom of God. And so they shall remain unless and until they confess their many errors, including tithe, and repent, embracing Gospel Reform.
Q3. How can Sabbath keeping be a false doctrine?
Tom replied: Old Covenant Sabbath Keeping, while true doctrine for the Jews, is not correct doctrine for anyone living under the New Covenant.
Those who try to keep the Sabbath Law today, like the SDA’s, have fallen from grace. They are Judaizers, Legalists, and anti-Christ. Let no one think otherwise.
How does the Church know that OC Sabbath keeping is wrong? Because this is what Jesus teaches in the Gospels. Over and over he teaches a very different Sabbath from the Law of Moses and the 4th Commandment.
In fact, Jesus refutes the OC Sabbath and gives an exemption from the rules against work in the 4th Commandment to those that follow him. In addition, he teaches an active and working 7th day Sabbath. Not a resting Sabbath like in the OC.
See: The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228
While the SDA’s teach that all in the church must obey the Moral law and “keep” the Sabbath holy by refraining from work, this is NOT what Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath teaches. This is what the enemies of Christ taught, NOT CHRIST.
The SDA’s are following Moses and the Law, when they should be following Christ and his Gospel. These are two very different paradigms.
Carlton asked: Has the 4th commandment been abolished or changed?
Tom replied: Yes. Yes. Yes. Jesus, as the self-proclaimed Lord and Protector of the Sabbath, changed and reformed the doctrine of the 7th day for all to see in the Gospels. HE DID NOT REMOVE THE DOCTRINE OF THE SABBATH. But he did REFORM IT.
Why do you think the Jews were so outraged with his reformed Gospel Sabbath? Why do you think there are so many detailed debates about the Sabbath in the Gospels?
Jesus, as the Son of God and the Creator of the original Sabbath, changed and reformed the OC Sabbath into a NC DOCTRINE for all to see in the Gospels. Which is why you don’t see the church embracing the OC Sabbath of Moses and the Jews. They embraced the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ, which did not prevent any work on the 7th day.
Let all understand; The rules against working on the Sabbath have been REMOVED by Christ. While the OC Sabbath was holy and forced all but the Levites to “rest” on the 7th day, not so with the NC Sabbath, which is not a holy day, and does not feature rest.
However, the Sabbath is still the 7th day. And it is still a memorial to Creation and now, also to the Gospel. It is still a day for the congregation to meet. Sunday is a false Sabbath and so too what the SDA’s practice.
In the NC, Jesus is holy, not the 7th day. What he teaches about the Sabbath, is what the church must also believe.
It is time for the church to repent and embrace the Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
Question: Where in the book of Acts do we see an example of your doctrine of effectively: worshiping on Sabbath and work if you want on Sabbath?
Tom replied: Good question! However there is no such thing as a Tom Norris doctrine. We are discussing the Gospel Sabbath OF CHRIST, the self-proclaimed Lord and Defender of this weekly doctrine.
Here is the answer:
When Paul preached the Gospel to the Jews in Antioch, (on the Sabbath) both the Gentiles and Jews wanted to hear more.
Acts 13:14 But going on from Perga, they arrived at Pisidian Antioch, and on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down.
Acts 13:15 After the reading of the Law and the Prophets the synagogue officials sent to them, saying, “Brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it.”
Acts 13:40 “Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:
Acts 13:41 ‘BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL, AND PERISH;
FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS,
A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE, THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.’”
Acts 13:42 As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath.
Acts 13:43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.
The next Sabbath, the whole town turned out to hear the Gospel on the 7th day Sabbath. Proving that 1) the Sabbath still existed after the cross, contrary to what some claim. And 2) that the Sabbath was part of the Gospel Story.
Paul could have easily said: Come back next Sunday and learn more about the Gospel. But he did not. Paul linked the 7th day Sabbath of Christ with the Gospel. Not the 7th day Sabbath doctrine of Moses and the Jews, but the NC Sabbath of
Christ.
Acts 13:44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.
Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.
Here is some context for Paul’s remark about letting no one “act as your judge” about the Sabbath. This is exactly what the Jews were doing in front of the Gentiles. They were judging how Paul viewed the 7th day as well as many other things. They were cursing him for breaking the law and for teaching that Jesus was the Messiah.
Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —
Acts 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
The “word of God” obviously included the Sabbath of Christ. Not the OC doctrine, but the NC version, which was so Gospel friendly for the Gentiles.
What kind of Sabbath doctrine was Paul promoting? Was it the OC Sabbath where it was wrong to light fires or travel, or do any work whatsoever? Or was it the NC Sabbath of Christ, were none of those rules were in effect? And where the whole town was free to go back to their homes and work on the 7th day?
If Paul had been preaching the OC Sabbath, the Jews would not have become so angry. But he was not. He was promoting the blood of the New Covenant (and a working Sabbath), which the Jews considered “unclean.” Thus the insults and condemnations of the Gospel were very public.
Heb. 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
If Paul were supporting the OC Sabbath; he would have had to warn the town that it is wrong for them to work on the 7th day. He would have to tell them to go home and put out their fires and stop cooking, and stop doing any and all work, because this is what the 4th Commandment teaches. (This is what the SDA’s would say.)
But Paul says no such thing. There is zero mention of resting or not working on the Sabbath. There was no such OC instruction, even as the 7th day Sabbath was acknowledged as being part of the Gospel Story.
Acts 13:47 “For so the Lord has commanded us,
‘I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES,
THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.’”
Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Acts 13:49 And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region.
The “word of the Lord” included hearing the Gospel on the 7th Day Sabbath. It did not feature the OC Sabbath, with its many rules against work, but the active NC Sabbath of Christ.
Of course the Jews were outraged at the Gospel, as well as this so called New Covenant that embraced so much error, even Sabbath Breaking. They would not stand for this…
Acts 13:50 But the Jews incited the devout women of prominence and the leading men of the city, and instigated a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district.
Acts 13:51 But they shook off the dust of their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium.
Acts 13:52 And the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
The Gospels are full of Jesus’ NC Sabbath teaching. The rest of the NT also supports his active and reformed, 7th day Lord’s Day.
Question: Sabbath is a day of rest isn't it? Not a day of worship.
Tom Replied: In the OC, the Sabbath featured forced rest, under pain of death. No fires, no cooking, not even gathering sticks for fire. So harsh was the 4th Commandment, that at least one person was put to death by Moses for Sabbath breaking. (The Levites had a working Sabbath).
But the day also featured congregational and temple services. And of course, we see Jesus preaching the Gospel every 7th day, on the Sabbath. He did this to show that the Sabbath is still a day for congregational meetings under the NC.
In the OC, there was an exception to these harsh OC rules. The Levites were exempt from obeying the 4th Commandment. Why? Because they had to work on the Sabbath to keep the Temple services active, etc.
Thus there were two very different doctrines of the 7th day for the OC Jews. Misunderstand this point, and the NC Sabbath teachings of Christ will not be understood.
Question: There seems to be no biblical evidence for your interpretation of what you call the NC Sabbath. Please direct me to a biblical explanation or evidence for this so called NC Sabbath.
Tom replied: The Gospels contain numerous passages where Jesus defines, promotes, and defends his active and reformed 7th day doctrine of the Sabbath. Here is all the “evidence” anyone needs to understand this Gospel doctrine.
In fact, the Gospels show Jesus often in debate with the Jews about his controversial view of the Sabbath. His new view stunned and angered them. Most of them rejected the NC Sabbath, and refused the Gospel.
What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath is Gospel truth for the church. Only a blind person could miss all this written evidence.
Q4. Wasn't it the case that the "Jewish food laws" were given in the context of health? Isn't this desire of God echoed in 3 John 2:
Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
Tom replied: The Jews had many dietary laws in addition to the prohibition against pork, shellfish, etc. No doubt there is a health basis for all this instruction, but this is not explicitly stated.
Listen to how a Modern Jews views these OC laws.
Why Do We Observe the Laws of Kashrut?
Many modern Jews think that the laws of kashrut are simply primitive health regulations that have become obsolete with modern methods of food preparation. There is no question that some of the dietary laws have some beneficial health effects. For example, the laws regarding kosher slaughter are so sanitary that kosher butchers and slaughterhouses have been exempted from many USDA regulations.
However, health is not the only reason for Jewish dietary laws. Many of the laws of kashrut have no known connection with health. To the best of our modern scientific knowledge, there is no reason why camel or rabbit meat (both treif) is any less healthy than cow or goat meat.
In addition, some of the health benefits to be derived from kashrut were not made obsolete by the refrigerator. For example, there is some evidence that eating meat and dairy together interferes with digestion, and no modern food preparation technique reproduces the health benefit of the kosher law of eating them separately.
In recent years, several secular sources that have seriously looked into this matter have acknowledged that health does not explain these prohibitions. Some have suggested that the prohibitions are instead derived from environmental considerations.
For example, a camel (which is not kosher) is more useful as a beast of burden than as a source of food. In the Middle Eastern climate, the pig consumes a quantity of food that is disproportional to its value as a food source. But again, these are not reasons that come from Jewish tradition.
The short answer to why Jews observe these laws is: because the Torah says so. The Torah does not specify any reason for these laws, and for a Torah-observant, traditional Jew, there is no need for any other reason. Some have suggested that the laws of kashrut fall into the category of "chukkim," laws for which there is no reason. We show our obedience to G-d by following these laws even though we do not know the reason. Others, however, have tried to ascertain G-d's reason for imposing these laws.
In his book "To Be a Jew" (an excellent resource on traditional Judaism), Rabbi Hayim Halevy Donin suggests that the dietary laws are designed as a call to holiness.
The ability to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil, pure and defiled, the sacred and the profane, is very important in Judaism. Imposing rules on what you can and cannot eat ingrains that kind of self control, requiring us to learn to control even our most basic, primal instincts.
Donin also points out that the laws of kashrut elevate the simple act of eating into a religious ritual. The Jewish dinner table is often compared to the Temple altar in rabbinic literature. A Jew who observes the laws of kashrut cannot eat a meal without being reminded of the fact that he is a Jew.
Kashrut: Jewish Dietary Laws
http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm
Carlton asked: Has pork, for example, even though it provides energy for the body, become as healthy as lamb or beef?
Tom replied: The ancient world had many religions, and food laws played a part in them all. The Jews had some of the most complex of these types of rules as part of their OC religion.
Religious Dietary Restrictions
http://eatocracy.cnn.com/2010/07/20/cla … trictions/
However, regardless of any health issues, we have to understand how these laws were changed when the NC replaced and superseded the OC. This is the real issue, not health.
Let all understand it was very “unhealthy” to accept the Gospel. Many who did were persecuted and some even killed. So good health is not to be considered above Gospel doctrine. Nor is it the point of the Gospel here on earth. Accepting the Gospel was a most unhealthy thing.
John 15:20 “Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
As for the health benefits of pork versus Lamb, Lamb has a higher fat content and will clog your arteries a little faster than pork.
LAMB
Average per 100g: 156 calories, 8.3g fat. Health rating: **
Lamb is one of the fattiest meats, with the leanest cuts twice as fatty as their beef equivalent. However, there is a lot of variation, with lean leg steaks providing just 5.2 pc fat and lean breast 11 pc.
Lamb is one of the best absorbed sources of iron and a rich supply of zinc. An average serving has more than the Recommended Daily Allowance (RDA) of vitamin B12, needed for healthy red blood cells.
PORK
Average per 100g: 123 calories, 4g fat. Health rating: ****
Technically a red meat, lean pork is almost as low in fat as chicken. Escalopes contain 1.7 pc fat compared with 1.1 pc in chicken breasts. However, streaky spare ribs are much fattier at 13.5 pc.
Pork has a lower proportion of artery-clogging saturates than lamb or beef but is not as high in the unsaturated type as chicken. Its zinc and iron content is intermediate between poultry and red meat.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic … z2g33aWeYM
Lamb vs Pork
http://www.twofoods.com/compare/query/bGFtYg==/cG9yaw==
In fact, it is much more healthy to be a vegetarian, which was not promoted in either Judaism or the Christian Church. Neither was Jesus a vegetarian.
I am a vegetarian, but not because of religion. Only for health reasons. There is no sin in eating pork, even though it is not the most healthy food.
While the OC is full of very complex and demanding food laws, the NC is not. The Jew were constantly focused on their distinctive and rigid food laws and rituals, but not Christians.
In the NC, Food and Religion are no longer joined together. And when they were connected, it became wrong and very divisive.
Gal. 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.
Gal. 2:13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.
Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
Food was at the center of the great Gospel debate that is featured in Galatians. Those Jews who retreated back to the rules of the OC were not only wrong, they had betrayed the Gospel.
In the NC, food is no longer part of the religious rules. Listen to Jesus and Paul make this Gospel point:
Matt. 6:25 “For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?
John 6:27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man
will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
John 6:55 “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
1Cor. 6:13 Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will do away with both of them. Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body.
1Cor. 8:8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.
The OC food regulations were temporary. They went away when the 1st century Gospel Reformation took place.
Heb. 9:9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience,
Heb. 9:10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
In the NC, there are very little to no food laws.
Here is a profound way to understand why there is no longer any clean or unclean foods.
In addition to food laws, the OC declared that blood was awful, and very unclean. Even in spite of the fact it was used in the Temple Services. Both animal and human blood were unclean and untouchable.
Thus, a women became “unclean” once a month, even as the drinking of animal blood or eating it in meat, was strictly forbidden as unclean.
Lev. 15:19 ‘When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening.
Lev. 12:2 “Speak to the sons of Israel, saying: ‘When a woman gives birth and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean for seven days, as in the days of her menstruation she shall be unclean.
Lev. 3:17 ‘It is a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwellings: you shall not eat any fat or any blood.’”
Lev. 17:10 ‘And any man from the house of Israel, or from the aliens who sojourn among them, who eats any blood, I will set My face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people.
Lev. 17:14 “For as for the life of all flesh, its blood is identified with its life. Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, ‘You are not to eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off.’
While blood is unclean in the OC, it is not in the NC. In fact, it is blood that saves, and gives Eternal Life in the NC. So how can it be “unclean”?
Thus, what was unclean in the OC is now clean and salvific in the NT.
Those Jews who refused to go forward and embrace the NC, viewed the blood of Christ as ‘UNCLEAN.” They were going to stick with the OC, which would also include all the food laws as well.
Heb. 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
But this is all wrong for any that want to follow the
Gospel. The NC has no food laws, much less any distinction between clean and unclean. It is not against blood. Rather, those who embrace the Gospel drink red wine as the symbol of Christ’s blood. A symbol that is CLEAN for them, but unclean for the OC Jews.
Luke 22:20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
John 6:54 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:55 “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
John 6:56 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
The OC Jews were outraged by such talk of Jesus blood, which they considered unclean, as all Jews were instructed. But the NC is not like the OC, there are many major differences, and food laws are one of them.
Eph. 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
Eph. 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
The NC rejoices in the blood of Christ. There is nothing “unclean” about it. What was once viewed as very unclean, is now viewed in the opposite light. Blood no longer means condemnation, rather it means Eternal Life in the NC.
Thus all food is clean in the NC. It may not be healthy, but it is clean. One can eat a pig every day, and no sin is being committed as the OC Jew and the SDA assumes.
While all foods are clean, not all foods are healthy. We must choose food that is healthy, as religion plays no part in diet under the NC.
Heb. 13:9 Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, through which those who were so occupied were not benefited.
Here the author states that those in the OC, who followed the rules about food, “were not benefited ” anyway. Which is why the OC was temporary, replaced by something much better.
Listen to Jesus:
Mark 7:14 After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, “Listen to Me, all of you, and understand:
Mark 7:15 there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man.
Mark 7:16 [“If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”]
Mark 7:17 When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable.
Mark 7:18 And He said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,
Mark 7:19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.)
Mark 7:20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.
Mark 7:21 “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
Mark 7:22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.
Mark 7:23 “All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”
Paul understands this teaching from Christ:
Rom. 14:14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom. 14:15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
Rom. 14:16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
Rom. 14:17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Here are two good posts from Sal:
Clean and unclean foods
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -foods.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -foods.htm
Carlton asked: Doesn't 2 Corinthians 6:17: Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,--include unclean meat?
Tom replied: No. Paul knows that 1) Jesus has made all foods clean. And 2) that Peter had also been instructed again on this point when the Gentiles came into the church.
The Gentiles would not have been able to join the church if they had to follow the OC food laws and endure the painful rite of circumcision. Thus all these Jewish things, including OC Sabbath keeping, was banished from the NC on purpose.
It was the secret plan of God to invite the Gentiles into the Church. Part of that plan was to replace the OC with the NC, which is very different from the law based OC.
Carlton asked: Is Leviticus 3:17 prohibiting the eating of fat or blood no longer advisable?
Tom replied: Today, we live in the New Covenant. We do not live in the ancient world, or under the Old Covenant. Consequently, we are not to seek instruction and guidance from the OT about food or anything else. No, no. We are not OC Jews. Rather, we are to follow what Christ teaches in the New Covenant.
What does Jesus teach about eating? We must follow what he teaches. Period.
The SDA’s have a made a great mistake to think that they are guided by, and must obey, the Old Covenant laws of the Jews. Jesus does not teach such a point, and in fact condemns most of what the SDA’s teach, including their silly food laws.
Carlton asked: In Acts 15 isn't the prohibition of "meats offered to idols" another way of identifying unclean meats, given that Noah only sacrificed 'clean' animals to God? Isn't that also the reason why Paul would eat [clean] meats sacrificed to idols (1 Corinthians 10)?
Tom said: The great Gospel debate that took place in the apostolic church is very interesting. The first thing that stands out are how the leaders of the church, (James) were so wrong about the Gospel, and had to be condemned by Paul.
As far as Acts 15, I note that James (who was confused about the Gospel) tried to walk a fine line between letting the Gentiles not be circumcised, but yet, wanting them to adopt some Jewish distinctive. Thus he gives his own personal judgment, which is not the same as inspired Gospel truth from Jesus.
Acts 15:19 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
Acts 15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
James judgment is suspect and so too his theology. Jesus does not teach what James promoted in Acts 15 as it relates to food. But at least James repudiated circumcision, which was at the heart of the debate.
The doctrine of circumcision would have prevented the spread of the church, stopping it dead in its tracks. The Gentiles hated such a doctrine and few were interested in such a painful OC rite.
Gal. 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.
Gal. 2:13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.
To understand Galatians is to understand the Gospel. The SDA’s have never understood this book, which took center stage in the great 1888 Gospel debate. If they did, they would not promote OC food laws and other Jewish doctrines, like tithe or OC Sabbath keeping.
Carlton said: Before you lambast me for misrepresenting Paul's teaching of 1 Corinthians 10. It indeed does not say, only eat 'clean' animals offered to idols, but the implication, I believe, is, clean animals are sanctioned by God, therefore if a Gentile offers lamb to an idol it doesn't affect the constituency of the meat making it unclean, it is therefore, with a clear conscience, suitable to eat. If however, your brother might take offence, don't eat it to cause him to stumble at what he might perceive to be hypocrisy.
Tom said: Any food offered to idols was considered “unclean.” Because it was offered to idols. Also, any meat that was not killed in a certain, Kosher, manner.
Paul knew there was no such thing in the NC as clean and unclean food, nor were the many Gentile idols real. He was trying to keep this issue from causing problems in the church between those who knew that there was no such thing as another gods, and the Gentiles who thought them real.
1Cor. 8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
1Cor. 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
1Cor. 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
1Cor. 8:7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Cor. 8:8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.
Carlton asked: So to get back to the point. Clean meats are sacrificed to God, that is the food for the priests. That is the point you made regarding working on Sabbath.
Tom said: First off, the OC Priests were Jews. We live in the NC, and we are NC Priests. Very different paradigms. The NC does not follow or practice OC doctrines or rituals.
Second, the point being made about the Priests is that they had an EXEMPTION from the rules against working on the Sabbath. This became the theological basis for Christ’s NC Sabbath doctrine, which was also based on a new doctrine, which the Protestants called the Priesthood of all believers.
Carlton said: Priests work on Sabbath, priests ate meats sacrificed to God! Christians should eat priestly food.
Tom said: We in the NC are not to follow the OC, much less mimic what the Levites practiced. (They also practiced ritual circumcision.) We are to follow Jesus, our High Priest and apostle from God. He teaches the NC, not the OC.
What is the definition of “priestly food” in the NC?
John 6:51 “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
John 6:54 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:55 “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
Carlton said: Eating pork is not a sin, nevertheless isn't it the case that it is not as healthy as biblically designated clean meat? Even science tells us that it is 'dangerous':
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic … -pork.aspx
Tom said: Like I said above, Pork is healthier then Lamb, which is very high in fat. But neither one is very healthy. But again, it is not wrong to eat any such food, including shellfish, etc.
In the NC, food is not an issue like it was in the OC. If you want to be healthy, then Vegan is the best way to go. But religion plays no role in our food selection today.
John 6:27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man
will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
John 6:55 “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform
Offline
Carlton said: You have correctly identified the problems of the IJ. You have also correctly identified SDA organizational problems.
Tom said: Glad to see that you have moved away from the IJ and tithe. Congratulations, you are on your way to fully entering the NC, if you continue to press on and understand the Sabbath and food laws correctly.
However, not only has Adventist Reform easily disproven the IJ, - many times over, it has also located and supplied the true doctrine of the Pre-Advent Judgment. This is an important milestone in Gospel Eschatology and should not be overlooked.
It is not enough to point out false doctrine. Gospel Truth must replace whatever is false. And this is what has taken place with the IJ/PAJ and, tithe, and the Sabbath.
Not only has the IJ been proven wrong, again, - and Dr. Ford vindicated, - but also the truth about the PAJ has been discovered in the NT, where it belongs.
Here is important eschatological truth for the church. Let all rejoice!
The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227
Understanding the Pre- Advent Judgment
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1154462379
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1154462379
Carlton said: At the same time though you go on to judge OC Sabbath Law keepers as anti-Christ judging the in contradiction of Paul's advice. You also appear to have swallowed much of the errors of modern bible versions.
Tom replied: Did you forget? It was the OC Sabbath keepers that repudiated and killed Christ. Thus the Jewish Sabbath keepers that were loyal to the 4th Commandment became the original anti-Christ’s.
Paul has given no advice to anyone to promote a false version of the Gospel Story, much less to pretend the Jews did not reject Christ.
I note that Paul (Saul) was also very anti-Christ until he repented, so I think you must have misunderstood something.
The Gospel Story is clear. It was the Sabbath keeping, tithe paying, Jews that repudiated and killed Christ. They were great “liars” according to Jesus, and the first ones to be against Christ. Thus they were the first to be anti-Christ, and to deny Jesus was the Son of God.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father.
John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
1John 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
Let all understand that the SDA’s mimic Judaism by rejecting the Gospel and clinging to many OC doctrines. And like the Jews, they have also persecuted those, like Dr. Ford, who explained truth to them. The SDA’s, like the Jews, are great liars and anti-Christ rebels.
So how can the SDA’s not be viewed like the faithless, legalistic Jews?
How can they not be labeled as anti-Christ, just like the Jews? Had the SDA’s been around in the 1st century, they would have stood firm with the Jews, loudly rejecting Jesus new view of the 7th day.
The SDA’s elevate the Law above the Gospel. They are dead set against the Sabbath teachings of Jesus; even as they pretend to be serving God by keeping the 7th day. This makes them great, anti-Christ liars, as well as Judaizers.
As for the various Bible versions, understand that if the one passage in question were removed, the outcome would still be the same. There are no, no, no unclean foods in the NC. Period!
In fact, this passage from Christ states there are no clean or unclean foods without the final verse, which is just a summary of the passage.
We will take a look at this as well.
Carlton said: It has been useful corresponding with you but there are crucial points where I see thus saith the Lord and they are lacking or occasionally (e.g. Acts 15 misappropriated to James instead of the Holy Spirit) mistaken.
Tom said: I have enjoyed your questions, and will respond in detail to your follow up questions.
We are dealing with a large and complex topic, with a very large database; it is impossible to cover all the points in a few posts.
Carlton said: Have a great Sabbath and I hope you can provide some more scriptures and consider some of the things that I have pointed out. Not believe but consider.
Tom said: You have asked some good questions, which deserve a response. (See answers below.) However, I don’t think you are clear about the NC Sabbath, or about food and drink as yet.
We must all remain open to Gospel correction and adjustment as the evidence warrants. Thus the search for truth in the Word is an ongoing and “noble” process for all that follow Christ.
Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
So if you have some truth to share, I am interested. This is the proper attitude for all that follow Christ.
Matt. 13:52 And Jesus said to them, “Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings out of his treasure things new and old.”
Carlton said: God bless you and your family and ministry and I hope that you not only understand but experience the following:
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Specifically the making of twain.
Tom replied: Those who embrace the Gospel are not OC Jews, but NC Christians. This is the “new man” that Paul speaks about this in Ephesians.
Eph. 2:17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR;
Eph. 2:18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
Eph. 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,
Eph. 2:20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
Thank you for supporting the search for Gospel truth within the Adventist Apocalyptic. The Advent Movement is in shambles today, all because the legalistic, OC leaders refuse to repent and embrace the NC.
I am glad you have come to understand that the IJ is false doctrine and so too tithe, which also includes how the SDA’s are organized.
Continue to seek Gospel Truth.
If this response is too long for the All Experts system, the full answer can be found on the Adventist of Tomorrow site.
Here are your follow up questions and answers by Tom Norris:
1. Carlton Responds About Tithe Error:
Carlton said: Tom, there is much truth here but you seem to have such vehement opposition to the Old Covenant.
Tom said: First, the NC always and forever trumps the OC. The NC is superior to the OC in every way possible, which is to say that no one who follows Christ can remain under the OC. Not even a little bit. To do so is to reject Christ and the NC.
So yes, when it comes to the Gospel, the OC has no standing. NONE! Thus all who embrace Christ must understand this fact and “vehemently” oppose the OC, which has been abolished.
Anyone who thinks otherwise does not fully understand the Gospel or the Reformation, much less the book of Galatians, which features the Two Covenants.
Second, Christians are either under the OC or not. There is no hybrid position. It is one or the other.
The correct answer is they are not, not, not under the OC. Not even 1% or 5% or 10%, much less 50% or more as the SDA’s teach. Any who think otherwise, like the SDA’s, who are full of OC doctrine, have fallen from grace. They are not under the NC, but the OC.
Consequently, they are as lost as were the 1st century Jews who also refused the NC, thinking it their mission to protect OC law.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
John 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
Luke 13:34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!
Luke 13:35 “Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!’”
This great sin of refusing to give up the OC not only ruined the Jews, it also plagued and divided the early church, as well as becoming the theological foundation for the Roman Catholic Church.
Sadly, the SDA’s, who claim to be Protestant, also allowed the OC to confuse them and lead them to embrace a false and worthless Gospel, along with many outrageous doctrines such as tithe, the IJ, and a false view of the Sabbath, etc.
The SDA’s have rejected the lessons from the Gospels and from the book of Galatians, as well as the Reformation and from their own 1888 Gospel debate, which featured the book of Galatians and focused on the difference between the Two Covenants.
Gal. 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.
Gal. 2:13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.
Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
Gal. 2:15 “We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;
Gal. 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
The book of Galatians records this historic Gospel debate between those Jewish Christians that wanted to combine some of the OC with the NC. Paul correctly declared that the OC was only temporary and was now abolished.
Misunderstand this debate, which the SDA’s have done, and the Gospel will not be properly understood; it will become worthless, even as many OC doctrines are elevated above the NC teachings of Christ.
Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a 1atutor.
Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
This passage means that Judaism, INCLUDING both the Moral and Ceremonial laws, has been abolished, replaced by the NC, and the teachings of Christ. No food laws. No tithe. No OC Sabbath keeping.
Paul correctly calls for NC freedom in the church. He condemns those Pharisees that tried to keep the OC laws alive and make it part of NC doctrine. He understood that there could be no tithe, circumcision, or a separate priesthood. Nor could there be an OC Sabbath where it was sinful to work on the 7th day. Such a doctrine is part of the OC, not the NC.
Gal. 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
Gal. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal. 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
The doctrine of tithe, or OC Sabbath keeping would also fit this passage. Those who practice any OC doctrine today, are “under obligation to keep the whole law.” Which, of course, is impossible.
Such legalism severs all from Christ. Which explains why the SDA’s have “fallen from Grace.” Christ is of “no benefit” to them until they repent of their many OC ways and only embrace NC doctrine.
Paul was “vehement” in his opposition of the OC in the church. We should all have the same attitude. Those that don’t, - have embraced a false Gospel.
I repeat, those Jews in the 1st century that rejected Christ, did so because they refused to let go of the OC, which included the Sabbath Law, tithing, and the Temple services, etc. The Jews choose Moses and the OC Law over Christ, and thus they refused to follow the NC.
John 9:28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses.
John 9:29 “We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where He is from.”
This Gospel debate between the Old and New Covenants erupted again during the Reformation. Although the RCC had developed a hybrid Gospel, full of OC doctrines, including a separate Priesthood, Luther realized this was all wrong.
Luther understood the difference between the OC and the NC. He realized, like Paul in Galatians, that there can be no OC laws in the NC. Rome disagreed, and so too the foolish SDA’s.
In fact, Luther correctly claimed the key to understanding the genuine Gospel was the ability to separate and distinguish the OC from the NC. A point, which the RCC and the SDA’s refuse to do. This is the correct basis for all Protestant doctrine.
"We believe, teach, and confess that the distinction of the Law and of the Gospel, as a most excellently clear light, is to be retained with special diligence in the Church of God, in order that the Word of God, agreeably to the admonition of St. Paul, may be rightly divided. "
(The Formula of Concord, 1576.)
"This difference between the Law and the Gospel is the height of knowledge in Christendom. Every person and all persons who assume or glory in the name of Christian should know and be able to state this difference. If this ability is lacking, one cannot tell a Christian from a heathen or a Jew; of such supreme importance is this differentiation. This is why St. Paul so strongly insists on a clean-cut and proper differentiating of these two doctrines."
Martin Luther, Sermon On Galatians, 1532
Those who think any part of the OC is valid today, are very wrong. They do not understand the NC Gospel of Christ. The SDA’s are blind to the Gospel, which is why they still teach OC food laws and tithe, etc. And they don’t want to be healed. Pity.
See also:
Law & Gospel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1122
Carlton said: It is true that we are not under the Old Covenant, but God's Old Covenant Laws were not arbitrary.
Tom said: Yes, the OC was very arbitrary. God arbitrarily choose Abraham as the first Jew.
Deut. 14:2 “For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
The OC was indeed “arbitrary” and “temporary.” But even if it were not, it does not matter. The OC is ABOLISHED. Replaced 100% by the NC Gospel.
Heb. 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
If you want to grasp the Gospel and receive Eternal Life, you must let go of the OC and only embrace the NC with both hands.
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Gal. 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
The Spirit is leading no one today to embrace Jewish food laws, tithing, and OC Sabbath keeping. The SDA’s have been following a FALSE CHRIST and a FALSE SPIRIT for many years.
Carlton argued: The purpose of the tithe was only partly to support Levites that had no inheritance. SDA pastors and presidents have lots of inheritance and therefore were not to benefit from gifts from members.
Tom replied: The OC is over. So it makes no difference how the ancient details of tithe worked. We must not let anything in the OC control or guide our NC lives. Rather, we must look to Jesus and the NC for all instruction and doctrine.
There is zero basis for OC tithing in the NC church. It is a great sin that proves the Gospel is not understood or embraced. Those who tithe do not know Christ or his Gospel. They are anti-Christ, just like the first tithers.
Carlton said: Nevertheless, the book of Acts support of the fatherless and widows continues, even though it appears that there was some discrimination practiced:
Acts 6:1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
Tom replied: First, there was no tithing used in the early church for any reason, much less to take care of the members.
So this passage in Acts 6 gives no encouragement to the practice of tithe in the church. It did not happen here or anywhere in the NT, so it is too late to embrace such false doctrines today.
Second, the NC does not forget the poor, which Jesus predicted would “always” be a problem, even until the end of time.
Luke 6:20 And turning His gaze toward His disciples, He began to say, “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
Matt. 26:11 “For you always have the poor with you; but you do not always have Me.
The NT records collections being taken for the poor, even as the Jerusalem leaders reminded the local Gentile churches not to forget the poor. I note that by poor, they meant poor church members. The church did not indiscriminately feed the poor. No. They only helped those in the church.
However, no tithing is ever associated with helping the poor in the NT. Why? Because this OC doctrine was banished from the church along with the Levites. Tithe does not fit in the NC.
The SDA’s are the world’s greatest liars about tithe. What they teach is absurd, outrageous, and very wrong. Shame on this greedy, anti-Christian cult that is following in the unbelieving, OC, footsteps of the Jews.
Rom. 15:26 For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.
Gal. 2:10 They only asked us to remember the poor — the very thing I also was eager to do.
Tithing has zero to do with helping the poor in the church. There was no such doctrine in the early church and there can be no such doctrine today. Those who think otherwise will not enter the Kingdom of God.
Carlton said: Where does this ministration to widows come from? It comes from understanding the spirit of the law relating to tithe from the Old Covenant.
Tom replied: Stop! Christians are not under any “spirit of the law.” Those who talk that way, do not understand the Gospel correctly. In fact, there is no such phrase or “spirit” in the entire Bible. So you have made up something that does not exist.
Why? In order to follow the OC? Big mistake.
The Gospel Story is not to be filled with myths and made-up phrases or doctrines. Many do this, and they confuse themselves by believing their own fiction and false assumptions.
Rom. 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom. 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Rom. 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Rom. 8:15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”
Eph. 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Let all understand that there is no such thing as a “Spirit of law” in the church, as many assume. But if there were; it would be called a “spirit of slavery.” In fact, it was the Circumcision Party, the Judaizers in the early church that would have embraced such an evil spirit.
Phil. 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
Phil. 3:3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
Phil. 3:4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:
Phil. 3:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
Phil. 3:6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.
Phil. 3:7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
Phil. 3:8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
Phil. 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
Did you see it? V 3. Here Paul compares those who have the true “spirit of God” versus those “dogs” in the church who were promoting the “spirit of slavery.” Those who live by the law do not understand the Gospel. They have a very wrong spirit.
Phil. 3:3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
Let all beware the Law. It is not a friend, as the SDA’s teach, but an enemy of the Gospel. The OC equals death, not Eternal Life. This is what all SDA’s are going to receive; Eternal Death if they don’t wake up and repent.
Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”
1John 4:6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
Tithing in the church is only practiced by those who have THE SPIRIT OF ERROR.
Carlton said: When you rightly condemn the misuse of the tithes within the SDA church ought you to not point out the importance of looking after the vulnerable?
Tom said: First, we were not discussing how the church is to take care of its members.
Second, like I said, the SDA church does not use any tithe money for the poor or needy. So there is no connection to the doctrine of tithe with the poor in the SDA church, much less in the apostolic church. This is why it was not brought up.
However, the church is required to take care of its members needs. But the reason this does not happen in the SDA church is because of tithe, which goes to pay the leaders before anything else. Thus robbing the local church of their resources, leaving them unable to help the local members. This is all wrong.
This is why a hierarchy is evil and not allowed in the NC. The entire SDA organizational system is an insult to both God and man. It is OC, not NC. It is not a “servant” organization, but one that demands that the local church take care of the leaders needs.
Thus the organization grows rich, (the SDA’s are worth about $35 Billion), while the local churches stagnate, and the members struggle and have no help whatsoever from the church. The SDA’s do not help the poor, but they will make you poor by their constant greed and demand for more money and to pay a double-tithe and offering, etc. There is no end to their greed.
This is all wrong, proving the SDA’s do not know the Gospel. The local church must be owned by the members, and controlled by the members; even as it is for the members benefit and well-being.
The members are to be assisted and helped by the church in every way, not the other way around where they work to build up the church for those who own and control it. The members do not exist to serve the leaders, or build an Empire, much less to be controlled by them and led into false doctrine.
Luke 22:25 And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’
Luke 22:26 “But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant.
The church is to keep its resources for its members. They are not to support hierarchical Empire building, much less allow some distant group of men in Rome or Silver Spring to own and control them, setting all the rules and persecuting those who do not obey their false doctrines.
The early church set up the proper organizational pattern, and this is what must take place in the Advent Movement as part of Gospel Reform. If the SDA’s can’t be reformed, then NC Adventism will move forward without the OC variety.
This is what Adventist Reform is all about. Making the transition from OC to NC Adventism. I hope you will join this much-needed improvement.
Carlton said: You didn't appear to address this point of looking after the fatherless and widows being based on the principle (I called it "concept") of tithing.
Tom said: Forget the doctrine of tithe and anything associated with it. Tithe was never, never, never, practiced by the early church, (not even in concept form), nor did it fit with the NC paradigm where all are equal. And yet, the early church figured out a way to take care of the widows, etc. We must follow the NC, not the OC.
Acts 2:43 Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles.
Acts 2:44 And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;
Acts 2:45 and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
Acts 4:33 And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.
Acts 4:34 For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales
Acts 4:35 and lay them at the apostles’ feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.
No tithe in the early church. Only sharing among equals.
In conclusion, there can be no tithe, or anything like it in the NC. It is totally wrong and only underscores how confused and wrong the SDA’s have become about the law and the Gospel.
If Paul were alive today, he would call the SDA’s many bad names, even “dogs,” because they are just like the Judaizers in Paul’s day, who also tried to combine and blend the OC with the NC, thus creating a false and worthless Gospel.
Carlton Sabbath response #1
Carlton stated: So Sabbath Law keepers are anti-Christ? 4th Commandment keepers are anti-Christ?
Tom said: Yes! Why so surprised? The Gospel Story is clear that it was the Sabbath keeping Jews that rejected the Gospel and killed Christ. They were the first ones to become anti-Christ. (How could you miss this?)
Acts 3:13 “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him.
Acts 3:14 “But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,
Acts 3:15 but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses.
Carlton responded: This is quite a remarkable statement.
Tom said: I agree. The Sabbath keeping Jews rejecting their Messiah is a very ironic, sad, and strange part of the Gospel Story. But facts often seem strange, -because myth is often viewed as truth.
The Jews refused to let go of their many laws, including and especially the Sabbath law of the 4th Commandment as well as their Levitical Priesthood. The Jews choose the OC Law over the Gospel, and so too have the tithe paying, Sabbath keeping, SDA’s.
In fact, anyone that embraces the 4th Commandment today, by not working on the 7th or 1st day of the week, has rejected Christ’s NC Gospel. While they may not understand what they are doing, nonetheless, they are acting just like the 1st century Jews who also refused to embrace Jesus’, active and reformed, NC Sabbath.
Carlton said: Its a pity you do not support this statement with scripture because as interesting as your explanations are, I think we need some thus saith the Lord, and some Bible quotations to back it up. For now I will take that statement as your opinion.
Tom replied: That statement, while admittedly harsh, is one of Gospel fact. It is not my opinion. Why? Because it follows the Gospel Story. The Jews were the first anti-Christs. They killed Christ and attacked the infant church. They became “hostile” to both God and man. And so they are to this very day!
1Th. 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,
1Th. 2:15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men,
The NT is clear that Jesus’ NC, working view of the 4th Commandment was officially and brutally rejected by the Jews. Why? Because Christ taught a very different view of the Priesthood that required the total deconstruction of thousands of years of God given law and tradition. To even begin to embrace Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath, the Levites and the High Priest would also have to be removed, and so too the Temple.
This was too much for the Jewish leadership to accept. Jesus was overturning the OC by design. But the Jews resisted, especially those who made a living from Judaism. They refused to embrace this radical NC view and continued to embrace the teachings of Moses that it was sinful to work on the Sabbath, under penalty of death. They continued to support an Elite class of Levitical Priests, as well as the Temple and all it’s OC activity.
The Gospels records many bitter and long running debates between Jesus and the Jews. Most of them featured the Sabbath. See: John 5, 7, 9 and 10 for example.
Let all understand: the Sabbath keeping Jews rejected the Gospel and rejected Jesus’ NC view of an active, 7th day Sabbath where all were free from the guilt and sin of the 4th Commandment Law. Then they killed him and tried to wipe out the infant church.
Thus the Jews were bitterly anti-Christ. They chose the Law over Christ. So too have the SDA’s. They are acting very much like the Jews, even to the extent of setting up a tithe based hierarchy, following Jewish food laws, and practicing OC, Sabbath Keeping. (It’s a miracle that they don’t also insist on ritual circumcision, for which we should all be thankful. Ouch!)
Wow! How can the SDA’s not be considered anti-Christ? They are just like the faithless Jews! They even persecute those members, like Dr. Ford, who speak the truth about the Gospel.
I think you need to step back and take a fresh view of church history and the NT. The Gospel Story that is in the public domain is so full of myths and false assumptions that few can see the details with any worthwhile clarity.
The Gospel Story needs to be better understood. It is a remarkable set of doctrines that have yet to be fully understood by the church today.
But here is a true point that must be understood. Anyone who clings to the Moral Law, tithe, and food laws, as well as one false doctrine after another is not, not, not, following Christ. They are anti-Christ, regardless if they claim otherwise.
The SDA’s do not follow Jesus or his NC, 7th day Gospel Sabbath. They are great liars about God, dead set against Christ and his NC Gospel Sabbath.
Carlton said: I have to say not only do I disagree with this opinion, it seems that the Apostle Paul in Romans 9, 10 and 11 would also disagree with you.
Tom said: Paul well understood that the Jews were against Christ. He never said otherwise. Moreover, Paul teaches that a true Jew is one who has the saving Gospel faith of Abraham. Not one born a Jew and who embraces the law and becomes anti-Christ.
Rom. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
Rom. 9:7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
Rom. 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
Paul teaches that the Jews killed Christ, thus they are “hostile” to “all men” and destined for the “wrath” of God. “They are not pleasing to God.”
1Th. 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.
1Th. 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,
1Th. 2:15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men,
1Th. 2:16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.
Carlton said: If we NC Christians are grafted into the tree that the Jews were a part of, how can Sabbath keeping messianic Jews be anti-Christ?
Tom replied: The Jews practiced all manner of OC rituals and doctrines, including ritual circumcision and the slaughter of animals, etc. So what? Does this mean the church must follow the OC? Hardly. Your assumption is false.
The SDA’s have influenced many to think that the OC is of equal standing with the NC. They teach that there are many things taught in the OT that are binding in the NC, such as tithe, the 10 C’s, and food laws. But such views are 100% wrong, even dangerous, because anyone that thinks this way does not understand the Protestant Gospel correctly.
The OC, while the context for the NC, does not control the NC. The NC has been “grafted” into OC Judaism, which was itself grafted on the earlier vine, which included those before Abraham. The NC Church has replaced OC Judaism. There is to be no blending of the OC with the NC, (which is the definition of RCC theology).
Moreover, Jesus is the true vine for all Christians, not Judaism.
John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
Furthermore, Paul makes it clear that the Jews were “broken off” and removed from the “olive tree,” which is the Kingdom of God. The Gentiles were grafted in their place.
Rom. 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Rom. 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Rom. 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
Rom. 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom. 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom. 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
The Jews, the “natural branches” have been “cut off” from the Kingdom of God. Why? Because they were anti-Christ. They killed Christ and have yet to repent.
As for the Sabbath, this fundamental creation based doctrine is still the 7th day in the NC. But this is not the same doctrine as the 4th Commandment of the OC, which prohibits work. Some of the Sabbath doctrine still stands in the church. But not the OC doctrine that Christ reformed.
As for the Messianic Jews today, they are very confused. Most are Judaizers. I have been to these Semitic based churches where they prance around the Law (literally) and practice tithe, as well as OC Sabbath keeping. They do not fully understand nor embrace the Gospel; they have too much law in their theology, even as their eschatology makes no sense.
Listen to their OC view of the Sabbath:
SHOULD WE OBSERVE THE SABBATH?
Do you keep the Sabbath? - Yes, we observe the Sabbath. From the time of creation the Adonai set aside sundown Friday to sundown Saturday as a gift of physical rest to us. We should accept the holy gift with joy. Just as our Orthodox and Conservative Jewish bothers and sisters do.
http://www.messiahassembly.com/shabbot.asp
See also:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index … 616AAb2eBn
Note that this group happily embraces the Sabbath of Moses, calling it a “gift” that should be accepted like it was in the OC. This is all wrong. Jesus does not teach such a Sabbath, proving that these people are Judaizers, just like their forefathers.
Paul and Luther would curse them to hell for their false Gospel, and so too the SDA’s that also think the same way.
Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
The Messianic Jews do not understand the Gospel or the NC Sabbath any better than the confused SDA’s. Both are blind, mired in the ditch of legalism and faulty hermeneutics.
A Biblical and Messianic View of the Shabbat
http://www.bethshechinah.com/Articles/0 … at_01.html
Regardless, if anyone thinks they are not allowed to work on the 7th day, as the 4th Commandment teaches, they are anti-Christ. They are taking a position directly opposed to Christ, the Lord of the NC Sabbath. They are in harmony with those who killed Christ, the great Sabbath Breaker.
Carlton asked: Surely, you are not seriously suggesting that Jews will start to work on Sabbath before they cease being anti-Christ.
Tom replied: Yes! And so too the SDA’s! The Jews had better REPENT and embrace the active Gospel Sabbath of Christ if they have any hope of Eternal Life. Thy have a lot to be sorry for, including the promotion of a false view of the 7th day Sabbath.
So yes, if anyone believes in the genuine Christ, they must also embrace what he teaches about the 7th day. If any Jew (or SDA) refuses, they remain a “broken branch.” Removed from the Kingdom of God, destined for wrath.
Jesus does not teach a resting Sabbath. Rather, he teaches a very active, 7th day where it is no longer sinful to work. Anyone that refutes Christ’s NC view, and embraces OC Sabbath keeping instead, has repudiated Christ and the Gospel.
So yes, those sheep that follow the genuine Christ of the Gospels must be very active on the 7th day. They cannot embrace Sunday, nor hold the same view of the Sabbath as the original enemies of Christ, and still think they are not also enemies of the Gospel.
Those who try to keep the 7th day Sabbath holy by not working are following the Jews, which were the first to become anti-Christ. Sadly, both the Jews and the SDA’s fit this description. Thus they must both repent and only embrace the active and reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ. They must repent of tithing and a hierarchical organizational system, and many other false things.
The Jews have a hard time comprehending the Gospel, which is why they killed their Messiah. Even to this very day, they see things through the perspective of law; even as they embrace their law based history as if it were not temporary.
If the Messianic Jews don’t repent of their false views of the Sabbath Law, and other doctrines, they will not be saved. They do not understand the Gospel correctly or what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath or tithe. They think they do, but they are as far off as are the SDA’s who also think they have no error and understand the Sabbath correctly.
Jesus had an impossible time trying to teach the Jews the Gospel Sabbath. They refused and fought back, becoming the first ones to get the title “anti-Christ.” And so they are today. They still don’t understand the law and the Gospel clearly or correctly, nor do they want to. They are anti-Christ, even though they claim to support Jesus.
Carlton said: I would suggest the reason they were temporarily cast off (Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Tom said: Judaism was not “temporarily cast” away, but permanently removed, replaced by the NC Church. This will never change; regardless how many Jews embrace the Gospel at the end of time.
Moreover, Paul has redefined a Jew as one who has the faith of Abraham, which means that the Gentiles are viewed as spiritual Jews by heaven. A Jew by birth is no longer a true Jew in the NC.
Carlton said: in comparison to Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away his people, which he foreknew...) was not due to the way they kept Sabbath but their lack of faith in Jesus Christ.
Tom replied: Jesus preached a very different doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath to the Jews. This controversial view reflected his Gospel as well as the NC concept of the Priesthood of all believers.
Those who believed in Christ, also believed in his NC doctrine of the Sabbath, which was based on a new view of the Priesthood.
Most Jews rejected Christ and his Gospel, which also included what he taught about the Sabbath.
Jesus Sabbath doctrine played a large role in his Gospel ministry. It was a dividing doctrine that subordinated the Law to the Gospel. It called for a decision about Christ.
Rom. 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
To reject what Christ taught about the Sabbath is to reject the Gospel. To reject his NC view of the Sabbath is to deny him and have no faith in his Gospel teachings.
No one should give the Jews a pass for what they have done. Nor do the SDA’s get a pass either. They must all repent or remain doomed.
Here is a scathing review of the Messianic Jews. It is full of truth.
A SCRIPTURAL VIEW OF MESSIANIC JUDAISM; Exposing the heresy of the demonic Messianic Jew movement
http://www.bethelministries.com/MESSIANIC_JEWS.htm
Carlton said: To therefore identify Sabbath Law as the identifying mark of anti-Christ doesn't seem to harmonize with 1 John where the characteristics of anti-Christ are outlined.
Tom said: There are a number of “anti-Christ’s” in the NT. The first were the Jews. They rejected the Gospel teachings of Christ and killed him. Then they attacked the infant church and tried to wipe it out. Paul was part of this original anti-Christ movement.
Acts 22:4 “I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and putting both men and women into prisons,
Acts 22:5 as also the high priest and all the Council of the elders can testify. From them I also received letters to the brethren, and started off for Damascus in order to bring even those who were there to Jerusalem as prisoners to be punished.
The second anti-Christ group was the Pharisees in the church. They wanted to blend the OC law with the NC Gospel. Circumcision was only one of their incorrect doctrines that they wanted the Gentiles Christians to embrace. Food laws were also a large point for them as well.
Paul lambasts this group, including some of the leading apostles that became involved in this false movement.
Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
As church history went forward, there were “many antichrists,” even as many Gnostics were inserting various myths into the Gospel Story.
1John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
2John 7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Today, there is a long list of those that can be called anti-Christ. All who teach false doctrine about Christ, and “deceive” others about the Gospel Story, can be defined as anti-Christ.
This not only includes the Jews, who to this day, refuse to embrace Jesus as the Messiah, but also the Mormons, SDA’s, and many others that teach legions of false doctrine.
Carlton's #2 Sabbath Response.
Carlton asked: Where were the rules against working on Sabbath removed?
Tom replied: The Gospels are full of Jesus debating with the Jews over the Sabbath. His fundamental teaching overturned the rules about work contained in the 4th Commandment.
Jesus taught a very active, working Sabbath, while the Jews held firm to their OC traditions where work was prohibited.
Jesus’ doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath removed the rules against work that are contained in the 4th Commandment. THIS is why the Jews became so angry and accused him of Sabbath breaking, which was a capitol offense.
Luke 13:10 And He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.
Luke 13:11 And there was a woman who for eighteen years had had a sickness caused by a spirit; and she was bent double, and could not straighten up at all.
Luke 13:12 When Jesus saw her, He called her over and said to her, “Woman, you are freed from your sickness.”
Luke 13:13 And He laid His hands on her; and immediately she was made erect again and began glorifying God.
Luke 13:14 But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, “There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day.”
Over and over we see this pattern:
John 5:9 Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk. Now it was the Sabbath on that day.
John 5:10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
The Gospels are full of Jesus efforts to reform the 7th day Sabbath. Those that can’t see all this instruction are spiritually blind and need healing from Christ before they can understand.
Carlton said: Priestly work (i.e temple ministry) is not what the principle of the 4th commandment is concerned about.
Tom said: Correct. The 4th Commandment was for the non-priests, which was the vast majority. Only the Levites were exempted from the rules of the Sabbath law. They had to work on the 7th day.
Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
Matt. 12:7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Because the NC considers all who accept Christ as also Priests of God, they too are exempt from the rules of the 4th Commandment. While the Gospels are very clear about this, few people really read the NT so as to learn from Christ.
Most read the Bible with so many false assumptions and myths from the various denominations, that they have no idea what Jesus is really teaching and what he is not. The Sabbath is a good case in point. Few have any idea what Jesus teaches about the 7th day, least of all the SDA’s or the M Jews. This is why most think Sunday is the Sabbath and think this doctrine is about rest, not activity and work.
Carlton said: The spirit of the law is not go to church and then go to the factory, office or mall to work.
Tom replied: Correct. No OC Jew would think like this.
However, do you understand what you just said?
We are not OC Jews. Since when are Christians under Law? Or even the “spirit of the law,” which is referred to as the “spirit of slavery” by Paul?
Here is why the Jews became so angry: Jesus was teaching a view of the Sabbath that was clearly against the Law. He never denied such a charge, and in fact explained his new doctrine in detail so as to excuse his law breaking.
The doctrine of the NC Sabbath follows the “spirit of Christ,” which is also the “spirit of truth.” It does not, not, not, follow the law, which is why the Jews became so enraged with Christ. Any today that claim it wrong to work on the 7th day Sabbath, have embraced the “spirit of error,” not the “spirit of truth or Christ.”
1John 4:6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
Rom. 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
The very fact that every denomination today has a false and absurd view of the Sabbath should tell you something is very wrong with the church. Let all BEWARE.
Carlton said: When you class all work as priestly work, in my view you make a mistake and do not see the purpose of the spirit of the 4th commandment:
Tom replied: The “spirit of the law” does not govern any NC doctrine, much less the Sabbath. Rather, it is Jesus, and the “spirit of truth” that controls and defines all Gospel doctrine, - including and especially the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment.
Jesus is the original creator of the Sabbath; its’ Lord and Protector. To believe in him, is to embrace what he teaches about all doctrine, - including the Sabbath. Those who do not, are not following Christ or God, regardless what they think or claim.
Jesus is the one who taught that his NC Sabbath allowed for any and all good works. Not just a few types of works, as some assume.
In fact, Jesus was careful to heal no one on the Sabbath that could not wait until the next day. (A man born blind, or a woman hunched over for 18 years, etc).
In other words, Jesus dramatic, public healings on the Sabbath were not those of necessity or emergency. But those of choice. Why? To teach a new doctrine of the Sabbath.
Jesus was a healer; not a Levite. There was no exemption in the law for anyone to heal on the Sabbath, unless it was an emergency.
Jesus never healed any emergency case on the Sabbath. He was teaching the Jews the Gospel Sabbath, where good works and activity would replace the OC obsession with forced rest and inactivity.
Matt. 12:11 And He said to them, “What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out?
Matt. 12:12 “How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
Carlton said: Have a day of rest; take the opportunity to fellowship with God's people in public worship (Heb 10:25, Acts 13:42 - 44).
Tom said: Stop! The NC Sabbath is no longer a day of rest. Jesus teaches an active, working Sabbath, which the Jews rejected.
There is a group that promotes so-called New Covenant Theology (NCT), which features a “resting” doctrine of the Sabbath. They claim Jesus is our Sabbath Rest, 7 days a week, and thus the weekly Sabbath is abolished. But yet this group goes to church each Sunday. They teach utter nonsense.
NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
I have had endless discussions with this trite and lazy crowd that claims, “Jesus is our Rest.” But Jesus teaches no such doctrine. And they have not been able to show otherwise.
In the NC Sabbath, there is still fellowship with God’s people on the 7th day, but no rules against work or play; no forced rest. No guilt for working or playing on the NC Sabbath. NONE!
The 7th Day is no longer “holy.” Those who claim otherwise are legalists and Judaizers. They are against the genuine Christ and God the Father. They are anti-Christ.
Carlton said: All the ministry that Christ performed on Sabbath was in fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah 61:
Tom replied: The Messiah was the fulfillment of prophecy. He taught the Gospel, healed the blind, and saved those who were under the law.
Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal. 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
Gal. 4:5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Gal. 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
He also taught a NC doctrine of the Sabbath as part of his Gospel. No passage in Isaiah refutes what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath in the four Gospels.
Carlton said: If you can show where Jesus did some carpentry on Sabbath or encouraged his disciples to do some fishing, tax collecting or building work on Sabbath then you can say that the Gospel does indeed teach that Christ abolished the laws prohibiting work on Sabbath. Until then I assume this is you opinion again.
Tom replied: Ha! I don’t have to show any such thing. Rather, the teachings of Jesus, and the reaction of the Jews, is all the proof anyone needs to understand Jesus’ view of the Gospel and the Sabbath.
Jesus was not teaching fishing, farming, or carpentry to the Jews. His mission was to teach the Gospel and die on the cross to bring in NC salvation for all mankind.
Mark 1:17 And Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men.”
Matt. 9:37 Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.
Matt. 9:38 “Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest.”
Jesus was working to develop the NC Church, 7 days a week. This work was as much like working on the water or in the fields, except it was to save souls for the Kingdom of God. And there was no resting on this mission.
John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
Note that Jesus is calling for his followers to focus on work, even as he associates “not working” with darkness and evil.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
Heaven designed the church, not only for the Jews, but also for the Gentiles. Had Jesus been preaching the Gospel directly to the Gentiles, he would have had no problem explaining that they could light fires and do all manner of work on the 7th day.
They would have shrugged, because this is what they were doing all along. In fact, the Romans were on an 8-day week at this time. The 8th day was for Shopping at the Market. But not the Jews. They knew that if they allowed healings, and more travel, and let people light fires to cook on the Sabbath and harvest food from the fields, etc., that there would be no end to such Sabbath breaking. All this was against the OC Jewish Sabbath law.
So the Jews understood what Jesus NC Sabbath entailed. It would open the floodgates for the unclean Romans to enter the Kingdom of God and violate the Sabbath every week, even as they violated the Jewish food laws. They hated this strange NC idea that would ruin Judaism.
Don’t think for a second that the Jews misunderstood what Jesus was saying about the Sabbath. They understood and hated it on many levels, even as many react the same way today.
In fact, a number of people have written me to say that they are stunned to hear such about Gospel friendly doctrine of Sabbath. It seems “too good to be true.” They wondered where it has been hiding all these years.
Others claim such a working Sabbath is from the devil, and so too Tom Norris. This is a normative response from those mired in the OC.
John 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.
John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”
The Gentiles had no such doctrine as a non-working Sabbath day. They would have had no problem hearing that they could work on the 7th day. It was the OC Jews that viewed such behavior as sinful and wrong, an insult to God, worthy of condemnation and wrath.
The NC Sabbath of Christ explains why the first Gentile Christians, who were Roman soldiers, did not have a Sabbath problem. They were never asked or required to stop working on the 7th day in honor of the 4th Commandment. Nor would any tax collectors, farmers, or fishermen be required to stop their work on the 7th day. Such a myth is popular with the SDA’s, but it is fiction nonetheless.
To join the NC church was not the same as becoming a Jew. Not at all.
Carlton said: You also say that he reformed the OC Sabbath law, but actually did he simply live the way the law was meant to be applied?
Tom replied: This is an incorrect argument from the NCT crowd. Jesus was a great Sabbath breaker.
While the 1st century Jews were corrupt, it is a great mistake to think that Jesus was trying to reform the OC. He was not. He was launching the NC, which is a very different and opposing paradigm.
The Jews were not wrong to view the Sabbath law of the 4th Commandment as prohibiting work. This is clearly what it teaches. Moses set the precedent by condemning a Sabbath breaker to death for all the Jews to see. In fact, God told him to do it. Thus for thousands of years, the Jews followed their Sabbath law, and took it very seriously.
Jesus’ teaching about the Sabbath was the opposite of what the Jews expected from their Messiah. He actually repudiated what Moses taught about the 4th Commandment, and taught a very controversial and surprising view which shocked and divided the Jews.
The Gospels record debate after Sabbath debate between Jesus and the Jews. Thus there is no excuse for all the error and myths that are now associated with the Sabbath. It is time for the church to read the Gospels and stop embracing silly myths and false assumptions.
Carlton said: As the law giver he knew what was intended and understood how it was corrupted, the way I see it he simply lived in harmony with the OC laws, particularly the 10 commandments according to the spirit of the law.
Tom replied: Jesus created the first Sabbath. It was not like the OC Sabbath whatsoever. Neither Adam nor Eve were under the Old Covenant, which did not exist at this time. Thus Jesus’ view of the Sabbath was not the non-working doctrine of the Jews. He knew what he was doing, and why.
I repeat, Jesus view of the Sabbath goes back to the first Sabbath, which was made, not for the OC Jew, but for all mankind.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Jesus view of the Sabbath is not compatible with the OC Law. He knew what he was doing, even as he also claimed that God his Father had taught him this new, active view, of the 7th day.
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
Carlton said: Where, for example, we have a duty to break the law at times … Similarly if we need to feed someone it is okay to cook, purchase food in order to feed a stranger that we encounter on Sabbath.
Tom replied: The law does not like to be broken at all, for any reason. So while there may be reasons for breaking the law, this is hardly the definition of law.
Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”
Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.”
Second, any Jew (non-Levite) in the OC who tried to light a fire on the Sabbath and cook food was guilty of death. Period. There is at least one instance of this, so it is not speculation.
Ex. 31:14 ‘Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex. 31:15 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.
So forget this idea that it was fine to light a fire or “purchase food,” etc if you had guests on Sabbath. This is utter nonsense. Such “intentional” miss-behavior and law breaking would lead to death in the OC.
Num. 15:29 ‘You shall have one law for him who does anything unintentionally, for him who is native among the sons of Israel and for the alien who sojourns among them.
Num. 15:30 ‘But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Num. 15:31 ‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt will be on him.’”
Watch what happens in the OC to someone who chose to break the Sabbath law. God told Moses to put this Sabbath breaker to death. This was the law and the will of God.
Num. 15:32 Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day.
Num. 15:33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation;
Num. 15:34 and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him.
Num. 15:35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.”
Num. 15:36 So all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him 1to death with stones, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.
Note that this was the first time this had happened. V 34. Here was legal precedent for Sabbath Breaking in Judaism; God told Moses to punish the Sabbath breaker by death. V 35.
God is the one who invented the OC, even as the same God replaced it with the NC when the time was right.
God was not playing games in the OC. The 4th Commandment was serious business, and this idea that an OC Jew can work on the Sabbath, or do the things Jesus was doing, is not true. Only the Levites could work on the 7th day and not be guilty of sin. Jesus was not a Levite.
Carlton's #3 Sabbath response
Carlton said: Do you really believe that the WORK referred to in Acts 13:41 is labor/employment or is it the work of the Holy Spirit in the world at that time - establishing the gospel. It is certainly not an example that we can do manual labor or office work on Sabbath. I just don't see it.
Tom said: No. The preaching of the Gospel is the “work” in Acts 13: 41.
Acts 13:41 ‘BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL, AND PERISH;
FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS,
A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE, THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.’”
My point was this: when Paul preached the Gospel to the Gentiles on the Sabbath day, he did not lecture them about OC Sabbath keeping. He did not send them away with a warning to put out their fires and not do any cooking or work for the rest of the day, until sundown. No way.
Nor did he pay attention to the OC Sabbath restrictions about travel or cooking, etc. Thus the people came out again on the next Sabbath to hear the Gospel, absent any OC Sabbath rules against work, etc.
Acts 13:42 As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath.
Acts 13:44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.
No OC Jew would do such a thing. The Gentiles were natural Sabbath breakers, which was no problem for Paul, because he understood the active, NC Sabbath of Christ.
In addition, I understand that it is very difficult for anyone who has lived under the OC, to “see” the NC Sabbath of Christ. The Jews had a very difficult time with this. In fact, Jesus teaches that those who understand his Gospel, only do so with the miraculous help of God.
Matt. 16:15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Matt. 16:16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Matt. 16:17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
All SDA’s have been raised under the OC. We have all been brainwashed into believing myths and errors about the Gospel, especially about the Sabbath. The #1 doctrine of the SDA’s.
To pivot from the OC 7th day Sabbath, where work is sinful and the Day considered holy to God, to the active and free NC Sabbath of Christ is difficult, even impossible for many. Most Jews could not do it. They had too much invested into the Law and their traditions. They refused to give up the OC so that they could embrace the NC.
Some tried to have both the OC and the NC. This was the Circumcision Party that Paul condemns. The SDA’s are very much like this group.
Carlton said: Incidentally, you use a modern Bible and all modern bibles inaccurately translate Acts 13:42. The KJV shows the true rendition:
Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Clearly, from the KJV Jews and Gentiles worshipped together. It doesn't harmonize with your NC Sabbath for Gentiles and Jewish converts and OC for the non messianic Jews.
Tom said: There was a class of Gentiles, called the “God Fearers” who associated themselves with the Jews. They worshipped at the synagogue, but did not become circumcised.
Acts 10:1 Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,
Acts 10:2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God-fearer
http://www.crosswalk.com/faith/bible-st … -fear.html
http://www.hornes.org/theologia/rich-lu … the-gospel
The Gospel Story can be understood from any translation. If not, something is wrong with the person reading the NT; not with the translators.
Carlton said: You are right that there is a tendency for Jews and legalistic SDA's to only see the letter of the law with regard to Sabbath whereas Jesus taught a more insightful approach to Sabbath keeping.
Tom replied: Jesus Sabbath was much more than “insightful.” It was radical and revolutionary. It was a living, weekly, metaphor of the Gospel and Christ’s authority and pre-existence. It was also the doctrine that stunned and enraged the Jews, sending him to the cross. So insightful does not do this divisive doctrine justice.
The OC Sabbath was very legalistic and strict. “Complete rest” was the will of God. No work allowed, including no fire, harvesting, or cooking, etc.
Ex. 35:1 Then Moses assembled all the congregation of the sons of Israel, and said to them, “These are the things that the LORD has commanded you to 1do:
Ex. 35:2 “For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.
Ex. 35:3 “You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day.”
Let all understand: Jesus did away with all these OC Sabbath rules. Thus it is no longer sinful to work; or light a fire, cook food, shop at the store or eat in a restaurant on the 7th day. All work or play is now allowed on the NC Sabbath.
Misunderstand the NC Sabbath and the Gospel will also remain a mystery. This is what most all have done.
Carlton's #4 Sabbath response
Carlton said: I asked a genuine question. I only see Sabbath as a day of rest and congregational worship in the New Testament.
Tom said: I understand why you are perplexed. So too were the Jews. They too thought they understood the Sabbath. How could they possibly be wrong about this law?
They were very wrong about the Sabbath and so too the entire church at the end of time. Look around.
While you may think you see a valid Sabbath doctrine in the church that features “rest” in the NT, your mind is playing tricks on you. Why? Because there is no such doctrine in the NC.
We have all been brainwashed to believe that Sabbath equals “rest,” just like in the OC. However, such a view is OC not NC. The church is NC.
While the 7th day is most definitely for “congregational worship,” Jesus does not, not, not, teach a resting Sabbath. That is the OC view of the Sabbath.
Jesus does not teach what the SDA’s claim he does about the Sabbath. Not even close. So who are you going to follow? Jesus or the Gospel hating Jews and SDA’s?
Carlton said: I want to see this go-to-work-if-you-want and rather than show me, you say only a blind person could miss it.
Tom said: My remark about the blind is “code” for misunderstanding the NC Sabbath. It is a reference to a long and heated Sabbath debate between Jesus and the Jews, who claimed they could not see or understand what Jesus was teaching about the 4th Commandment.
The irony of this debate is evident, because it started with an amazing miracle whereby Jesus healed a man (on the Sabbath) who had been born blind from birth. As a result, the man was thrown out of Judaism for listening to Christ.
The debate ended with the healed and now sighted man embracing Jesus and his NC Sabbath, while the Jews remained blind to everything they had seen.
John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
John 9:36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”
John 9:37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.”
John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
So there is a running pun taking place here about the blind. Jesus calls those who refuse to see his reformed Sabbath “blind.”
The Jews were so busy trying to protect the Law, that they failed to “see” the Gospel, which was right in front of their face. But the blind man did see and embrace Christ, while the educated leaders could see nothing but darkness. They remained blind and in the dark.
The Gospel teaches that those who are spiritually blind, cannot “see” the Gospel of Christ or his NC Sabbath doctrine. Even if Jesus were to stand right in front of them and do the most spectacular miracles, like healing a man born blind, they refused to “see” and believe.
John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”
John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”
Carlton said: Well in your view I am blind, because I have missed it.
Tom said: Those Jews that could not comprehend what Jesus was teaching about the NC Sabbath, were called “blind” by him. So it is not my view, but Jesus view. I agree with him.
Those today, who fail to “see” Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath, are spiritually blind. This cannot be refuted.
John 9:26 So they said to him, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?”
John 9:27 He answered them, “I told you already and you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?”
John 9:28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but awe are disciples of Moses.
John 9:29 “We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, awe do not know where He is from.”
John 9:30 The man answered and said to them, “Well, here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes.
John 9:31 “We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.
John 9:32 “Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind.
John 9:33 “If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.”
John 9:34 They answered him, “You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?” So they put him out.
Jesus declares the Jewish leaders blind because they refused to embrace his NC Sabbath. The were proud that they were following Moses and the OC, even as they excommunicated the healed blind man who could now see much better then all the religious leaders.
Then Jesus teaches that he is the Good Shepherd. His sheep must carefully follow him, not the blind religious leaders, who refuse to let Christ heal them.
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
At the end of this Sabbath debate, the Jews were left blind, divided, and confused about Christ and his very different NC Sabbath.
John 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.
John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”
John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”
Carlton said: This is uncharacteristic of your usually verbose responses.
Tom said: I am not here as a replacement for Bible study. All must go the Gospels and study what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath, or anything else.
The Gospels are full of such discussion, especially the book of John; there a long passages about the Sabbath in John 5, 7, 9, and 10. How can anyone with good spiritual eyesight miss all this?
Carlton said: In the absence of the evidence I was seeking I have to assume that it is your opinion that, because I am blind, I do not see.
Tom said: The Gospels are full of Jesus active and reformed, NC Sabbath teaching. Only a blind person could miss all this Gospel instruction from the head theologian of the Church.
Matt. 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Carlton's Food response:
Carlton said: I didn't know what an escalope was so I looked in the dictionary. It is a thin slice of meat, is it any wonder it is less fatty than chicken breast? Which is certainly not thin. Similarly did you miss the fat content of streaky ribs? Much fattier than lamb. So your statements here are misleading. Pork is not healthier than lamb just because there is less fat in a pig's eye that a lamb's brain.
Tom said: There is to be no debate about food in the NC. The Gospel is not about food.
Luke 12:23 “For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing.
John 6:55 “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
1Cor. 8:8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.
Pork is not sinful to eat, and neither is any food in the NC. As for health, that is another issue, not related to religious laws. Don’t confuse the two as the SDA’s have done.
Carlton said: Nevertheless, the key point is that God did not give Israel arbitrary laws. Even the rabbit meat has a scientific basis:
Tom said: No. God did give arbitrary and temporary laws to the Jews.
Moreover, the real point is this: There are no OC food laws in the NC. NONE! Food has been disconnected from religion in the NC. But if you like to eat rabbits, go for it. Those who want to eat pork or shell fish, can do so without guilt. The health issue is a different topic from religion.
I am vegan. Not for religious reasons, but for health reasons. I have seen those who eat Lamb have many heart problems. All of which could have been avoided had they figured out how to eat properly.
Carlton said: Science has taken a long time to catch up with God's health laws.
Tom replied: Science proves that eating lamb will shorten your life and cause major heart problems. Such a fact disproves your point.
Lamb is not health food for those living in the 21st century. While it may have been fine in the ancient world, where people did not live long anyway, it is poison for today’s lifestyle.
The Gospel is not about health laws. Sorry if you think this way. The legalistic SDA’s have taught many myths.
While I do not deny that God wants us to have good health and that there are numerous OC laws that govern health, as there are also laws about gravity and such. The Gospel is not about health or law, or gravity. Faith in Christ is not about food. Eternal Life is not about food.
Carlton said: Nevertheless, the principle for the Christian is to learn the spirit of the law.
Tom replied: No, no, no. The Christian is not, not, not under the “spirit if law.” This is all wrong. The Christian is to learn and obey the spirit of Christ.
Gal. 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?
Carlton stated: God's dietary laws are not arbitrary. We NC Christians have to learn to trust the guidance of the OC - if we follow it we have a better length and quality of life.
Tom said: Wrong. The OC does not instruct the NC. Moses does not trump Christ, nor does any dietary laws from the OC apply to the church.
Those who follow and trust in the OC will end up outside the Kingdom of God. They stand under the law and under the condemnation of Paul in Galatians.
Do not confuse health with religion. They are two very different paradigms. This is what the Circumcision Party did and so too the SDA’s.
Carlton's #2 food response
Carlton said: You have spent quite a bit of time looking at blood in the OC and new covenant but it makes no sense.
Tom said: The point of all these passages was to show that while blood was symbolically and spiritually unclean in the OC, it is clean and salvific in the NC. Did you miss this point?
In the OC, blood, as well as food, and the Sabbath, etc, are viewed very different from the NC.
Carlton said: In the new covenant the blood of Christ for the Christian is taken symbolically in wine (how do you know whether it was old or new wine).
Tom said: The symbol of blood in the OC is unclean and very bad. Not so in the NC. Do you understand this?
Also, new wine is alcoholic. Why would you think otherwise? This SDA myth that wine in the Bible was grape juice is absurd and laughable. There was no such item as non-fermented grape juice in the 1st century. Grape juice naturally turns into wine immediately. This happens right away, and thus “new wine” is still fermented wine. Listen to Jesus explain this:
Luke 5:37 “And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.
Luke 5:38 “But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.
See also:
The SDA Scandal of Abstinence
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=238
All wine in the Bible is fermented, regardless if new or old. Jesus drank real wine, as did all the Jews. The SDA’s are making fools of themselves with their utter nonsense and fiction about wine.
Carlton said: Given your emphasis on "New" one might presume that it is more likely to be new wine. There is nothing in scripture, which proves this though. This section of your response would make more sense if instead of symbolic blood at the last supper Jesus offered real blood. This however is preposterous!
Tom said: While the OC Jews had many laws, we are dealing with the religious meaning of food and drink.
No doubt there were health and cultural reasons also associated with these laws, but the point to understand is about religious symbolism, not health.
Luke 22:20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.
Carlton said: Similarly, I do not see how you can talk about the offence Jews take from "blood", or the 70 disciples in John 6 who could face what they thought was cannibalism (eat His flesh) and drinking blood. They were rightly offended, as would you be; nevertheless like all things scriptural our purposes is to understand the principles being taught by Jesus.
Tom said: First, The Jews were not rightly offended. And to say so, is to reprimand Christ and correct him.
The reason why the Jews were shocked is because they were not spiritual minded. They were only thinking in a literal and legalistic manner. The symbolism went right over their heads.
Jesus was never speaking about cannibalism, but he was saying some very positive, radical, and shocking things about blood when he knew how the OC viewed blood as unclean and very bad.
Jesus was not asking anyone to drink real blood; he was making a point that there was a major change in the way “blood” was to be understood and viewed.
John 6:54 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:55 “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
John 6:56 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
Carlton said: We are to eat his body and drink his blood often in communion with the saints. If when a person looks in the cup they see real blood, my advice would be not to drink it, and flee as fast as you can! Blood is still unhealthy for consumption, as is too much Old wine!
Tom said: Real blood or human flesh would not be symbolism. Thus bread and wine are needed as symbols for Jesus death on the cross. Just as the OC had ceremonial and symbolic laws, so too the NC.
Blood in the OC was physically and spiritually unclean. Not so in the NC, where one can eat un-Kosher food and not be sinning. Blood is also celebrated in the NC with symbolic red wine; neither is it unclean.
The OC has no power, symbolism, or control over the NC. There must be a clear-cut distinction between these Two Covenants.
Most all Christians today have a blend of the OC with the NC. This colossal error has created a worthless and very confused view of the Gospel. Which explains why the church cannot understand the NC Sabbath correctly. They are blind to the Gospel, naked and unsaved in the real Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
The SDA’s are one of the worst and they have spread their OC based legalism around the world, fooling many people along the way, including themselves.
Carlton's # 3 food response
Carlton said: Do you see the dishonesty here? Again because you use a modern Bible version you quote, in parentheses, the false doctrine that you have been supporting in your article. Yet, all of the words in parentheses have no basis in scripture whatever. They are the words of men.
Tom replied: This is not an issue about a bad translation, and for the record, the KJV is not the most accurate translation. It is one of the worst actually. This is yet another SDA myth.
The SDA’s need to use such an outdated translation in order to try and pretend the IJ valid. But such word games are pointless. There are many very good translations and thus there is no reason for anyone to think their views can only be upheld with a certain translation. If so, it is not a very good doctrine.
Carlton said: The fact that you quote them without scrutiny means that you have accepted the false doctrine of the translators passed off as scripture. Either you have been deceived or you are knowingly continuing the deception. I hope it is the former.
Tom replied: It is so easy today to read numerous translations, and to check out the Greek or Hebrew.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-versions/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations
https://bible.org/seriespage/translations
http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/
Carlton said: If when you realize that translators are falsely adding their interpretation to scripture I hope you get on the side of better health, rather than promote eat whatever you want.
Tom said: If Paul did not want the Gentiles to be condemned, by their more educated fellow Christians, for thinking idols were real, what do you think he would say to those today who declare in the 21st century that they must use a certain approved Bible translation?
Wow! Paul would not be pleased.
Rom. 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
Rom. 14:2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
1Cor. 8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
1Cor. 8:7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Cor. 8:8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.
1Cor. 8:9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
There is no reason to pretend that a Christian must only read a certain Bible translation, or that some one who likes this or that translation is making an error. This is absurd, outrageous, and cultic. Those who think this way are passing false judgment on many people for no reason.
So I say again: If Paul instructed the 1st century church to not pass judgment against the uneducated and wrong opinions of the Gentile believers regarding food and idols, what would he say about their using different translations today?
Carlton stated: I will reiterate: Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. The food we eat does not determine our salvation, however it does help us to be healthy.
Tom said: This passage does not support your case for OC food laws in the church. Rather, it supports the truth that no foods or people are unclean in the NC.
Listen to Paul’s clear instruction about food to the Gentiles in Corinth and learn:
1Cor. 10:23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.
1Cor. 10:25 Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience’ sake;
Did you see it? All food is lawful. Eat ANYTHING sold in the Gentile Market Place. Read this over and over until you can process proper doctrine.
1Cor. 10:26 FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD’S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS.
1Cor. 10:27 If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience’ sake.
Do you see it? There are no forbidden foods in the NC.
1Cor. 10:28 But if anyone says to you, “This is meat sacrificed to idols,” do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience’ sake;
1Cor. 10:29 I mean not your own conscience, but the other man’s; for why is my freedom judged by another’s conscience?
1Cor. 10:30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks?
1Cor. 10:31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
1Cor. 10:32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;
Carlton said: I am sure you already know that SDA's are one of the 4 healthiest people groups on the planet.
Tom replied: First off, the SDA’s should be praised for embracing a health message. They did not invent it, but borrowed it from others.
Second, James White understood that health and religion were not to be joined. Thus the Battle Creek San did not allow SDA doctrine to be promoted. Rather, the San was “undenominational.” This was a secret to its success.
Third: The SDA’s are no longer very healthy. Only a minority is vegetarian, with only a small fraction, Vegan, which is the correct path to genuine health and long life.
In fact, the SDA’s are in love with cheese, eggs, and junk food. Most of their recipes are not healthy; nor do they reflect the same nutritional metrics, as did Kellogg in Battle Creek.
Fourth: The SDA’s are no longer leaders in the Health Movement. Their health publications are virtually bankrupt, and have been so for decades. They have no vegetarian restaurants, nor do they embrace exercise. The SDA Health Message is a bad joke. Look around and see how unhealthy, obese, and unfit most SDA’s have become. So let’s stop kidding ourselves.
Carlton said: This is no accident. It is because whether SDA's understand it or not, God's dietary laws are the best pattern for living - scientifically proven.
Tom said: The early church embraced healing and good health, but NOT vegetarianism, which is the healthiest diet. Neither was Jesus a vegetarian.
So you need to re-think these issues. Lamb is not health food today, but yet it was part of the Jewish diet. So “God’s OC dietary laws” are temporary and not the best for mankind today.
Carlton quoted: To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not... James 4:17
Tom replied: This passage is often misused to place people under the OC. Thanks to this passage, the SDA’s often teach that smoking is sinful, and so too bad eating, such as “unclean” foods. But this is wrong.
The context is “arrogant boasting” about the future and getting rich; not eating food or anything else:
James 4:13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.”
James 4:14 Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.
James 4:15 Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”
James 4:16 But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.
James 4:17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.
Carlton's #4 food response
Carlton said: Tom, sorry you have been deceived by the modern translators of Mark 7:19. Jesus did not declare all foods clean. The translators of modern bibles want us to believe that.
Tom replied: Wrong. If this one text were removed, the passage still makes the same point. And so too many, many other passages in the NT. Including the story about Peter in Acts, -when the Gentiles first came into the church.
In fact, Peter was shown “unclean” food in a vision from God and ordered to call it clean. What more do you need to see? There is no translation problem here is there?
Acts 10:9 On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray.
Acts 10:10 But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance;
Acts 10:11 and he *saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground,
Acts 10:12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air.
Acts 10:13 A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!”
Acts 10:14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.”
Acts 10:15 Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.”
Acts 10:16 This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.
Read the rest of the story about how an “unclean” (uncircumcised, with a diet of unclean food) Roman Soldier becomes the first Gentile Christian. Peter fully understood what Jesus had previously taught: that there was no such thing as unclean food or people in the NC.
Acts 10:28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.
Those that refused to let go of the OC, made trouble for the Gentiles. They wanted them to change their diet and become circumcised as part of joining the church. This was the problem that Galatians addresses.
I repeat, in the NC, there are no OC food laws or regulations.
In fact, Paul calls those who insist on practicing Jewish food laws in the church hypocrites and liars, deceivers who work for demons.
1Tim. 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
1Tim. 4:2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
1Tim. 4:3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
1Tim. 4:4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
1Tim. 4:5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
There are no forbidden foods in the NC. Period! The OC does not control the NC. The NC stands on its own, above the OC and superior to it.
Carlton's response re James & Acts 15
Carlton said: Tom, I'm quite disappointed that you attribute James' statement to a misunderstanding on James' part.
Tom said: First, James was the leader of the apostolic church in Jerusalem. However, he is not to be trusted when it comes to dealing with this issue about eating clean and unclean food.
Why? Because he was exposed as an OC legalist who supported the Circumcision Party. He started great trouble over this issue, which grew into a divisive Gospel debate in the early church.
Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.
Second, Paul condemned James view, which had also spread to Peter and others, in no uncertain terms. So we know James was wrong on this issue.
More than that, Paul recounts that James had previously approved his view of the Gospel, and that he never told Paul that he must teach the Gentiles not to eat unclean food. He only mentioned to remember the poor in the church.
So Paul called James out for dealing so dishonestly on this point.
Gal. 2:9 and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
Gal. 2:10 They only asked us to remember the poor — the very thing I also was eager to do.
Gal. 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.
Gal. 2:13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.
Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
Gal. 2:15 “We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;
Gal. 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
The NT is not to be read in a mindless manner. Just because something is in the Bible, that does not make it automatically worthy of quoting or of following what is quoted.
Many people are shocked to hear that there was a great debate and division in the apostolic church. They have no idea that the leading apostles fell away from the Gospel and started to promote a very legalistic and wrong theology.
Third, James admits that his advice about Kosher Foods is “my judgment.” He did not invoke Christ, because Christ did not teach that there were food laws in the NC. James “judgment” on this issue is wrong. But this should come as no surprise if one follows the story.
Acts 15:19 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
Acts 15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
Acts 15:21 “For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
James was a church politician. He was trying to find a way to allow the Gentiles to join the church, and still keep his base of legalistic Jews in Jerusalem under control. He was in a very difficult position, which eventually cost him his life.
We are not to listen to James over Christ or Paul, much less about food issues.
Carlton said: James clearly states that his understanding is firstly from the Holy Ghost but also from the apostles.
Tom replied: James first states that he is speaking for himself and his own “judgment.” And we know that his judgment is very suspect on this issue.
Peter is more clear and strong. He spoke before James and makes it clear that God had shown him that there was no such thing as clean and unclean foods:
Acts 15:9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
Acts 15:10 “Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
Acts 15:11 “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”
Acts 15:12 All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.
Acts 15:13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, “Brethren, listen to me.
Acts 15:14 “Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name.
James and Peter/Paul were not on the same page. Paul thought he had won the day and rejoiced. But James was leaving the door open to those Jewish Christians who still wanted to embrace some of the OC.
Acts 15:30 So when they were sent away, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter.
Acts 15:31 When they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement.
Today, scholars are not certain if Paul wrote Galatians before or after the Acts 15 meeting. The latest research seems to show that he wrote Galatians BEFORE Acts 15, which would make the Galatians the earliest of Paul’s writings. But many still think it may have been after.
Galatians: Introduction, Argument, and Outline
https://bible.org/seriespage/galatians- … nd-outline
Council of Jerusalem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Jerusalem
Carlton said: I am sorry to have to say it but I think you have it wrong again.
Tom said: There is no such thing as OC food laws in the NC. Period! I am not wrong about this Gospel fact. If you want to follow James instead of Christ, go ahead, but it is a mistake. James can give no one Eternal Life.
Let all understand: It is the SDA’s that are wrong when they teach: “The NT did not abolish the distinction between the clean and unclean flesh foods.” SDA’s Believe, p 285.
Carlton said: I have to agree with the Holy Spirit that there are a very small no. of things that Christians should keep from the law of Moses. Abstain from things strangled, from blood and meat offered to idols.
Tom said: Wrong! Jesus does not teach any NC food laws, much less tithe or OC Sabbath keeping. Neither does Paul.
James was wrong; he was too close to the Circumcision Party to be clear and strong on this point. James has been correctly condemned by Paul for his incorrect views about clean and unclean foods. See Galatians.
Carlton said: This (Kosher instruction) is not in harmony with most of the modern Christians belief, neither is it in harmony with what you have taught.
Tom said: There are many passages, including a vision to Peter, that show there can be no OC food laws in the NC.
James’ views do not hold up, which is why the church today does not embrace them. Except for the confused and OC minded SDA’s. They are acting very foolish to think that the Gospel includes OC Food laws.
Carlton said: I have to say while you have that viewpoint it is difficult to see how you can be grafted into New Testament Christianity - essentially a Messianic Jewish faith (whatever that means as there is a vast spectrum of messianic Jews from Sunday keepers to Orthodox Jews who accept Christ as Messiah).
Tom said: Wow! So one must embrace OC Jewish food laws in order to be a Christian? Really?
What other OC laws must be followed? Tithe? Sabbath keeping?
No Protestant can talk this way. Anyone that adds any OC law keeping to the NC has fallen from grace. They are not following the true Christ or his Gospel.
Luke 12:23 “For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing.
Rom. 14:20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
1Cor. 8:8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.
Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —
Gal. 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
Carlton's Response re: OC Priests:
Carlton said: Tom, you aren't being consistent. You said (OC) Priests work on Sabbath so NC Christians can work on Sabbath.
Tom said: Jesus teaches that the Levites worked on the Sabbath and were not guilty of sin. They were not bound by the rules of the 4th Commandment.
Consequently, those who followed Christ were also considered Priests of God and thus they too were given the same EXEMPTION from the Lord of the Sabbath. Thus the entire church, being Priests, were considered EXEMPT from the rules against work on the 7th day.
Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
Jesus is being very consistent and theologically brilliant.
Carlton said: (OC) Priests only ate clean meat surely NC Christians should only eat clean meat?
Tom said: Correct. The Levites had to follow the OC food laws of the Jews. But the NC Priests of God, (which is everyone that follows Christ), are not under the OC in any way. There are no food laws in the NC, and Jesus never said otherwise.
Carlton said: You can't pick and choose when you apply OC teachings to NC priests surely you have to be consistent.
Tom said: Jesus is free to teach what he wants about the law and the Gospel, as well as the Sabbath and the Priesthood. He has made his NC view of the Sabbath very clear in all four Gospels. Those that follow Christ cannot debate with him; much less repudiate what he teaches.
Carlton's response #2 Priests
Carlton said: It is not that we are not to; no one is to judge you. Two very different things.
Tom said: Paul’s remark about not judging members in the church, is not meant as license to “do what you want to do.” As if doctrine is a pot luck affair, where all can pick and choose what they want to believe and how they want to act. Hardly.
In fact, Paul is attacking the Jews outside the church, as well as those Pharisees in the church that were part of the Circumcision Party. Both were very critical of the new Gentiles church members. Paul is defending the Gentile and Jewish Christians; telling them not to pay attention to these critics.
Col. 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —
Carlton said: Not to, (your position) makes it wrong to keep, for example, passover, tabernacles and kosher laws.
Tom said: It was not wrong for the Jewish Christians to still remain Kosher. Or to participate in the Passover or other Jewish Festivals. But it was wrong for anyone to tell the Gentiles that they must do these things to belong to Christ. Or to think they were part of the NC.
Of course, when circumcision was forced on the Gentiles, Paul erupted and would not let that stand. He knew there are no food laws or ritual circumcision in the NC. He knew there was no longer an OC, non-working Sabbath, a position that would have been under fire from both the unbelieving Jews and the Circumcision Party
Carlton said: Not to be judged (My position and Paul's teaching in Colossians 2) do what you want and don't let anyone judge you.
Tom said: Christians cannot “do what they want.” They must do what Jesus teaches. Moreover, no one is going to escape the Judgment. Jesus will be their “judge” on the Judgment Day.
Those who think they can do what they want, and that there is no future Judgment, are not Christians. So Paul cannot be teaching what you claim for him.
Carlton said: When you label kosher practices and Sabbath law keepers as "anti-Christ" haven't you judged - precisely in contradiction of Paul's advice to Colossian Christians?
Tom said: The NT records that it was the Jews who rejected and killed Christ. This requires no judgment or opinion. It is Gospel fact.
Jesus made it clear that he was greater than the Law. Paul also made it clear that no type of law keeping is salvific or Christian. Those that hang on to the OC law, refusing to embrace the NC, are anti-Christ. The Jews were the original anti-Christs.
While Paul defended the Jewish Christian’s choice of worshiping at the Temple, and embracing some of their festivals, etc. This was optional. It was not mandatory of either Jew or Gentile. Nor was it salvific.
Carlton's response re so-called SDA Errors
Tom said error: 4. Perfectionism, just to name a few.
Carlton said: There are legalists in every church (perhaps more so in SDA church) they are not representative of the true Christian and Jesus did say that we were to be perfect as our father in heaven is perfect. The fact that many misapply this teaching is not a reflection of the SDA 28 fundamentals.
Tom replied: Actually, most all Christians today are legalists, blind to the Gospel. Which is why the PAJ is so condemnatory of the entire church. The SDA’s are the worst, refusing to honestly deal with 1888, which was a debate over the book of Galatians. A fight over how to define the law and the Gospel.
The SDA’s embraced the law and this is why they self-destructed in Battle Creek. It is also why they are self-destructing today.
The 28 Fundamentals are full of false doctrine and worthless doctrines.
Tom said error 5. Moreover, the SDA’s are wrong about the Lord’s Supper. They use grape juice, which is not the same as wine, which is the only drink authorized for the Eucharist by Christ. The Adventist doctrine of abstinence, which controls their practice of the Lord’s Supper, is not only very wrong, it is Muslim doctrine and they do not even know it.
Carlton: Where in scripture does it say that we must use old (fermented) wine? Why do you feel it is wrong to use new wine (grape juice). Surely you should substantiate this? Aren't there health benefits to sticking solely to new wine?
Tom replied: First off, natural wine, which is alcoholic, is very good for health. Throughout the long history of the world, wine has been correctly celebrated as good for health as well as religion. The Jews also viewed wine in a positive manner, unlike the Muslims.
Today, there are legions of scientific studies that prove wine is beneficial to health. So God knew what he was doing when (alcoholic) wine became the featured drink of the Gospel. Those who refuse the Cup of Eternal Life, will not enter the Kingdom of God.
See:
The SDA Scandal of Abstinence
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=238
Tom said: 6. Roman Catholic organizational system, which is against the Gospel.
Carlton said: I agree the hierarchical system is a reflection of the RC system.
Tom said: They are very wrong to practice tithe, as if it was a NC doctrine. Such error further proves they don’t understand the New Covenant.
Carlton said: I agree that SDA tithe is not in harmony with Deut 14:28, 29
In particular: the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow are not catered for in the church and the SDA Levites mostly have an inheritance and ought not according to Deut 14 to benefit from tithe.
Tom replied: Pay attention: The SDA’s do not need to be in harmony with anything in the OC, much less about tithing. All that follow Christ must conform to the NC, NOT THE OC.
In fact, unless the OC is FULLY repudiated, one cannot embrace the NC. To understand Galatians is to understand the Gospel. The SDA’s hate the book of Galatians. They have been hiding from it for years. This is why the 1888 debate was hidden, because it was all about the book of Galatians. Waggoner promoted Luther’s correct view of this book, and the SDA leaders went as berserk as did Rome against Luther.
Tom said: Then to underscore how OC they think, they also teach: 7.) That it is wrong for a woman to be ordained. In other words, they think only a man can be a genuine Pastor (or Priest) and only a man can be the head of the SDA church. Such outdated, Old Covenant views are outrageous, sexist, and against the Gospel.
Women's Ordination
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=880
Carlton: Doesn't Paul in his letter to Timothy state that leaders of the church are to be 'husbands of one wife"
1 Tim 3:2, 12. SDAs seem to be in harmony with scripture (although in the UK there are SDA ministers that are female). This is a barrier to many seeking to find a Bible believing church.
Tom replied: The NT teaches all who follow Christ are priests of God. Both men and women. They were spiritually equal.
It is the OC that refused to let women become Priests. They were forbidden, even as they also became “unclean” every month, as the law declared (due to blood being unclean). However, these OC laws were totally removed in the NC.
Those today who think men are religiously superior to women do not understand the Gospel. They are OC minded. These types also think tithing is true, and thus they are proving themselves to be modern day Judaizers.
Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Tom said: 8. The SDA’s also have many false and confused views about church history and the Reformation, including their own church history, which they have failed to fully or honestly disclose. Thus the SDA’s are very dishonest and manipulative, full of corruption, fraud, and false doctrine.
Carlton: I agree and too many people are happy in their ignorance.
Tom replied: Jesus teaches that most people take the easy and wide road, which leads to destruction. Only a minority will understand, embrace, and hold on to the Gospel for Eternal Life. I hope you are one of them.
Luke 13:23 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them,
Matt. 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
The “narrow gate” is not the law. It is faith in Christ’s Gospel.
Conclusion:
The OC is very different from the NC. The OC is not to be blended or combined with the NC. Such an error was the basis for the Circumcision Party and later the Roman Catholic Church.
Sadly, the SDA’s have also embraced this great error, for which they must repent or become a worthless cult; unworthy to claim they are Protestant Christians.
No Protestant can claim there are any OC laws in the NC. There can be no food laws or a separate priesthood, much less tithe to support such an unequal paradigm. Moreover, there can be no OC Sabbath keeping; this is not what Jesus teaches about the Gospel Sabbath.
It is good that you have repudiated the IJ, which is supposedly a judgment in heaven to determine who is obeying the law. Such a judgment is not compatible with the Gospel teachings of Christ, and in fact defies what he teaches.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
It is time for all that follow Christ to repudiate the Old Covenant 100%. Genuine Christians are under the NC, and the “law of Christ, 100%. They are not under the OC whatsoever.
Those who embrace the active and reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ, are following the NC. Those who embrace another Sabbath doctrine are only proving that they do not understand the Gospel. Nor are they following the genuine Christ of the Gospels.
It is time for Gospel Reform in every denomination, starting with the SDA’s.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
I hope this helps all that seek Gospel Truth.
Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform
Offline
Ken Woods said: I have been reading some of your links, and find them thought provoking.
Tom said: I have been online for about 15 years, discussing Adventist issues and doctrine. Before that, I studied theology at CUC and had a front row seat to the Righteousness by Faith debates of the 1970’s, which ended in the debacle of Glacier View in 1980.
Here is an interview I did with Dr. Ford. It has never been refuted.
http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … /intro.cfm
I also did private research in the GC Archives and White Estate for over a year in 1979. I actually worked out of Ron Greybill’s office and had special permission from Neal Wilson to research 1888 history in the White Estate. There I had meetings with Arthur White and others about some serious issues, which the church has failed to make public or correct.
So I know what I am talking about when it comes to SDA history and doctrinal development. The fact of the matter is that the Adventist leaders have not been honest with anyone about Ellen White or the 1888 debates, much less about the doctrine of the IJ and many other things.
Most of what we were taught by the church was not true or taken way out of historical context. Things have only gotten worse since our childhood days at JNA or Sligo, so much so that there is little SDA doctrine today that could be considered Gospel Truth, much less Present Truth. (We were not even told the real reason why John Nevin Andrews became famous in Battle Creek, as it did not fit with what the leaders wanted to teach in the 20th century about Ellen White.)
Don’t misunderstand; the SDA’s did get a number of points correct. They were correct to claim Sunday was a false Sabbath, and also correct to point out that only the 7th day could be the Lord’s Day in the New Covenant. And they have many other correct points as well, including the State of the dead, and the need for a Pre Advent Judgment, which they incorrectly teach is located in Dan 8.14.
So I am not like the many critics that claim Adventism is totally wrong and not worth saving. The eschatology of the Three Angels Messages is the correct path for the Laodicean Church, even as the Advent Movement is the work of God, and part of the Protestant Church.
Ken said: For the past several years now, I have tried to follow more closely what I believe, and live a surrendered, humble life in God.
Tom said: As we all move closer to our inevitable demise, many embrace religion as a means to ease the pain of life and survive the grave. This makes sense, because otherwise there is no hope whatsoever. This explains why religion plays such a large role in society.
However, with such a demand, there is sure to be worthless counterfeits and so there has been from the beginning of recorded time. Jesus teaches that only 25% of those who hear the Gospel will understand and embrace it for Eternal Life. This is not a good number. But it reflects the difficulty of trying to grasp the Gospel.
To further show this difficulty, consider that the leading apostles became confused over theology and embraced a false view of the Gospel, for which they were condemned. This is what Galatians is all about.
So understanding the Gospel is problematic. It has been so since the beginning of the church. Which is why the Jews rejected their Messiah, and the apostles had such a hard time comprehending the Gospel. Then the church went bad and corrupt, even as the last church has become the worst church of all time.
The point here is to be very careful about doctrine. Being raised SDA is a big problem, because they have never understood the Gospel correctly, nor do they show any signs that they care. They are more like the faithless Jews. So SDA’s, like the Jews, have a difficult time with the Gospel.
Ken said: I commend you for your diligent searching, and pray you will continue it.
Tom said: Thank you. I have been doing this for 40 years. I understand Adventist history and theology very well. Most only know what they have been brainwashed and instructed to know, but that is not enough.
Ken said: BTW I tried to register on Adventist for Tomorrow forum but it says that new registrations are not being accepted. What's up with that?
Tom said: I think they had some spam incidents. Here is how to register:
“Due to a large increase in spam and an equal amount of decrease in my time, I have frozen forum registration. If you are new to the site and want to register, e-mail me personally at vandolson@gmail.com.
Ryan Van Dolsen will take care of you.
You can also ask any questions you want at the All Experts site:
http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=4& … catID=2318
Ken said: All the best to you, Tom
Tom replied: Best to you also…
Bonnie Iversen said: I think we should be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Tom said: Adventism needs to be reformed, not destroyed or viewed as worthless. Adventists have some very good theology, as well as a unique eschatological mission that is worth saving, even though they have become disoriented and dysfunctional. So I am not one of those critics that refute everything Adventist. This is not a fair or correct position.
However, there is no point in pretending that that all is well, when we know this is hardly the case. The status quo is no longer sustainable, much less true. The SDA’s are divided and confused, full of false doctrine and error, for which they must repent and reform.
If this seems too difficult or uncomfortable, so be it. The genuine Pre Advent Judgment of the Church is Rev 3.14. In it, Christ demands that the church admit its blindness and errors, and repent. Those who think they have no false doctrine to confess will remain blind, unable to comprehend the Gospel teachings of Christ, which alone is salvific.
Bonnie said: Some of us have sat at the feet of the misguided, and some have had the opportunity to learn honest truths; most of us have done both.
Tom replied: There have been no perfect SDA leaders, either in Battle Creek or Takoma Park, so let’s keep it real, shall we. Nor have the SDA’s ever reached a point where they had only true and correct doctrines. While they often claimed this was so, like when we were all growing up, it has turned out to be a very foolish and impossible boast.
Bonnie said: Again, the bottom line is that we need to look to Christ and the truths we find in the Bible.
Tom said: This statement means little coming from an SDA. It is often used as code to defend the church from those who find fault with the leaders. The last thing the church leaders want to see happen is the members paying attention to what Christ teaches. That would be their undoing.
In fact, those who pay close attention to what Christ teaches will not pay tithe, because Jesus never did, and neither did the apostolic church. Nor will they embrace the IJ, because Jesus teaches that Hanukkah is the meaning of Dan 8.14.
To make matters really confusing, Jesus does not teach the same doctrine of the Sabbath as the SDA’s. While he does teach a 7th day Lord’s Day, he does not teach that it is wrong to work on the Gospel Sabbath. Of course this enraged the Jews, who correctly claimed Jesus was a Sabbath breaker. Why? Because Jesus taught an active 7th day Sabbath, not a resting one like in the Old Covenant. Thus the SDA’s have the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath, for which they had better quickly repent.
SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836
The well-meaning SDA’s were correct to understand that Sunday was wrong and that the Sabbath would become a doctrinal issue at the end of time. But their great error was to embrace the Old Covenant Sabbath of Christ’s ENEMIES. The SDA’s promote the OC Sabbath of Moses, not the NC Sabbath of Christ. Which is why they must repent and correct this error, completing Sabbath Reform.
So I agree: the bottom line is for all in the Adventist Community to start paying close attention to what Jesus teaches, and understand that it is very different from what the SDA’s claim he teaches.
Bonnie said: Too many people are too quick to believe every word that comes out of the mouths of those who are preaching.
Tom said: Most of what we were taught as SDA’s is very wrong. I could give you a long list, including this absurd myth that wine in the Bible is grape juice. Jesus drank real wine and so too did every Jew. We have been educated to believe many myths and half-truths and I for one do not appreciated being misled about so much information. The SDA’s don’t even know how to observe the Lord’s Supper properly. They have been teaching Muslim doctrine all these years to anyone stupid enough to believe them.
Sad to say, but those who paid good money for an Adventist Education, got a bad deal. We were all taught legions of false and wrong things, even as many lives were needlessly confused and ruined by so much doctrinal error. While there is no perfect denomination, the SDA’s turned out to be much worse then most.
The SDA Scandal of Abstinence
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=238
Bonnie said: That is the fault of the listener; we need to know the Bible so well that we can detect untruths when we hear them. We would be less misguided if we did that.
Tom said: There is no point in trying to cover up the fact that our leaders have been teaching false doctrines for generations. Most of what they taught us about the Bible and church history is flat out wrong. Sorry to be the one to tell you this. The 20th century collapse of Adventism was not the fault of the people, but of the leaders who built up a house doctrinal cards that could not stand.
The challenge today is how to clean this mess up and save the dying Advent Movement.
Bonnie said: Humans are human; God will deal with those who have purposely misled.
Tom said: You don’t get it. All the church leaders have been teaching and publishing legions of error for generations. They need to be held accountable now, so that others are not deceived. Those who lie about Gospel doctrine are not to be treated kindly, much less defended. Had the SDA’s been around in the 1st century, they would have joined with the Jews, sending Christ to the cross. Sad.
Moreover, forget this excuse that God will deal with all the issues one day, so we don’t have to. This is code for don’t criticize the leaders. But it must be rejected. Those who teach a false Gospel are not to be given a free pass. Why would you think so?
There can be no reformation without pointing out error. God is calling the last church to repent and reform. Not to sit back and wait for the Judgment. When that day comes, it will be way too late.
Bonnie said: However, that does not excuse us for not knowing the truth from our own personal study and prayer.
Tom said: The Gospel is an ancient concept from another time and culture. Contrary to what many think, it is counter-intuitive and very difficult to understand. Without proper training, no one would be able to understand it, even if they wanted to.
Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Today, most everyone has been trained to misunderstand the Gospel. The SDA’s especially have been indoctrinated by their leaders to embrace a false, legalistic version of the Gospel, which explains why they have so much false doctrine. Only when they repent, and stop trying to defend their many errors, will they be able to go forward.
Cathy Flowers Mills said: At a very young age I learned I needed to study for myself and decide what I believe and how I would live my life…So here are my thoughts. We each have to be responsible for ourselves.
Tom said: Don’t try and give the leaders a pass. Those who trained us, both the teachers and especially the pastors, had a fiduciary responsibility to tell the truth about the Gospel and church history. They were trained and we were not. They had the authority and they claimed to know the truth, etc. etc.
But they were very wrong, even very dishonest. These leaders must be held accountable for the Advent wasteland they created. They have caused millions unnecessary pain and suffering, even as they have driven legions away from the genuine Christ of the Gospels.
I hear from people every week who are disgusted with the SDA’s and are leaving the church. There is a lot of unnecessary pain out there and it needs to stop. People need the peace and truth of the Gospel, not the guilt and double-talk of the dishonest SDA’s who are knowingly promoting one false doctrine after another.
The status quo cannot continue and neither can the many myths and false doctrines, upon which we were raised. Time to take off the blinders and grow up people!
Cathy said: There will come a time when you must stand up and speak for what we believe to be right, just and fair.
Tom said: Unless what we believe can be supported by honest and true evidence, it means nothing. What good is it to stand up and say anything if it is not correct? The issue is not what we believe, but is what we believe true?
Cathy said: That's how I've tried to live my life. I'm thankful for the training I received in SDA schools my parents worked hard to send us to. I'm also thankful for the example my parents set for us. Sometimes we must do the right thing no matter the popular choice of not, no matter the cost.
Tom said: We should all be thankful we were not raised Mormon or some other far out cult. That would be even be worse than being raised SDA. But if I had children, I would never send them to an SDA school, where false doctrine and historical myth are everywhere. While I do not doubt that many SDA’s were very sincere back in the 1950’s and 60’s, so what? So too were the Jews that killed Christ. They were still wrong and so too the SDA’s that have followed in their Sabbath keeping, tithing paying, Gospel hating footsteps.
Today we live in the 21st century. The errors of the previous generations no longer need to be defended, much less embraced as true.
Carol L Jobe said: I loved my TA experience. I love going to my class reunions. Whatever this is about, them or us, the thing I don't like is having this page start deteriorating into Church Bashing.
Tom said: Just because we like something as children, it does not mean it was correct or even good for us. Theology is not to be defined by our personal experiences, much less from our childhood. So no one should anyone think it wrong to criticize the church or leaders. Such is the example of Christ.
Jesus bashed the Jewish leaders, and Paul bashed both James and Peter and the whole Galatian Church for their doctrinal errors. Without such a process of public criticism, there would have been no Christian Church. No “Protestant” reformation by Luther and no Advent Movement. So you don’t know what you are saying. You are being part of the problem instead of part of the solution.
The only way to save the Advent Movement is to honestly face up to the issues and separate out the errors from what is true. Such a process of seeking for truth is how the church moves forward. The last church is no exception. There must be a final REFORMATION in the church prior to the end of the world. The SDA’s were also correct to point this out. Too bad they no longer care about their own eschatology.
Carol said: This is about friends reconnecting, not slamming the faith many of us still hold.
Tom said: No need to be so defensive. Do you actually think Adventism is doing well? Look around. Most everyone has long gone. The church has done more harm than good to most relationships, and many are angry for being so misled and deceived about so much. You stand in the minority who think the status quo is worth defending, when it is not.
Carol said: I have worked at the Review and the GC, as well as at my current job, with wonderful dedicated fellow Adventists who led me to become a better Adventist Christian. I have enough of a struggle myself, I don't need to absorb more negativity So if this site is going the I hate the church they are all liars, losers, and cheats-route, I guess I'll just put my blinders back on and sign out.
Tom said: Your personal views change nothing. My mother worked at the GC and so too my wife’s family, etc. So what? Of course there are many wonderful people still in the church. That does not mean there are no serious doctrinal issues that must be corrected. Anyone today that thinks otherwise is living in dreamland. Come on people, we are not children anymore. Are we?
RoseRay Pittman said: Carol, I concur with you...we are all alumni with a strong commonality, yet with different experiences/reactions. In this forum, free/responsible speech is desired.
Tom said: This was the problem back in 1980. No one wanted to deal with the issues in an honest and forthright manner. And there was no Internet. The church would not allow free or honest speech. Everything was censored. So the leaders had a great advantage and they used it to suppress, manipulate, and control. Those days are gone.
The Internet has forced free speech on the church, and those who support their errors, don’t like it. Too bad. Censorship is not longer possible, which means that everyone is going to hear the facts, which condemns the SDA’s and prove they need to repent. Those who close their eyes to the facts will remain blind, even though they claim to see perfectly.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Ray said: I am a Christian & a member of Beltsville SDA. If someone points out how "the church" is doing this or that, there is a tendency for generalizations...however, if the point is accurate then we who are members have a responsibility to call for an accounting of our representatives...
Tom said: It is time for Adventist Reform. No more games.
Ray said: When it comes to suing other Christians, Jesus Christ would NOT do that.
Tom said: The NT specifically forbids the church to sue its members. But the SDA’s are not paying attention to the NT. They do whatever they want and pretend it is correct.
1Cor. 6:1 Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?
1Cor. 6:2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?
1Cor. 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?
1Cor. 6:4 So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church?
1Cor. 6:5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren,
1Cor. 6:6 but brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers?
1Cor. 6:7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
Jeanne Kinzer Murdoch said: I agree, Patti, this is the saddest part for me. I am trying to remember the many good things about the SDA Church right now and the good people who grew up believing in it. Much harm is done in the name of the church in an attempt to focus on power and control. I hope we can all look beyond that.
Tom said: Memories are not going to change the present crisis. The Advent Movement is self-destructing for all to see. If the church does not soon wake up and embrace serious Gospel Reform, they are doomed. Others will have to finish their noble work of preparing the church for the time of trouble and the 2nd Coming. Others will proclaim the Gospel Sabbath and explain how the world will end.
Patti Roberts Aldridge said: June, they have already done the harm. My husband, who is not an Adventist has followed this issue closely. Mainly b/c he knows how much TA means to me and b/c he has always wondered about Adventist and what made them willing to be different. His comment was "They are not all different from the world, some are just as greedy and backstabbing as the rest." My prayer is that these men stop and see what they are doing to the name of Adventist. A much bigger issue than a trademark. I agree they need to end this and do the right thing!
Tom said: Ha! If you think this little spat over a name shows the evil intent of the SDA leaders, you do not comprehend the massive fraud that has been perpetrated by the church about Ellen White. The church leaders have been hiding documents and lying about Ellen White for generations. They still do it today. If they can knowingly publish such fraud, which is a crime, it means that are lawless men with no consciences. The SDA leaders are not really Christians, they are hired hands, paid to brainwash and control. I have no kind words for those who speak false words in the name of God.
If your husband knew how dishonest the SDA’s really were, his mind would be blown. They are much worse then anyone imagines. They are just like the Jews that killed Christ.
Matt. 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Fred Eastman said: My intention for this thread was to elicit peoples ideas for a "new name" just in case we lose the case to the PC.
Tom said: You should be pro active and push forward a good name and get things resolved now. No need to wait. The name I gave you makes sense and should be allowed by the court. The church may not even object, in which case you would have a quick settlement. Don’t wait for the Judge. Get this silly diversion over with so we can have more serious and worthwhile discussions.
In conclusion, it is time for those remaining in the Adventist orbit to wake up and understand what has taken place and why. We are no longer children, living under the guilt of legions of false doctrine, taught by those who were clueless about the Gospel.
It is time for those serious about understanding the Gospel to repent for their many false views and receive the assurance of Eternal Life. This is the primary point of the Gospel, which few SDA’s have comprehended.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm
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---Breaking Church News--
SILVER SPRING - After several hours of reports from the North American Division Theology of Ordination Study Committee and lengthy discussion, attendees of the NAD Year-end Meeting voted 182 to 31 in favor of accepting the motion stating,
We receive the biblical study of ordination prepared by the North American Division Theology of Ordination Study Committee and affirm the conclusion that all people, men and women, may receive ordination as an affirmation of the call of God, and that the North American Division support the authorization of each division to consider, through prayer and under the direction of the Holy Spirit, its most appropriate approach to the ordination of women to gospel ministry.
http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2013/1 … -ordinatio
Last edited by l_miller (11-05-13 12:57 pm)
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Carlton asked: Where were the rules against working on Sabbath removed?
Tom said: Jesus removed the rules against working on the Sabbath; even teaching that God had told him to do this. He taught this over and over during his ministry. THIS is one reason why the Jews became so upset and angry, sending him to the cross.
John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
In fact, had Jesus not changed the doctrine of the Sabbath, the Gentiles could not have joined the church. But of course neither the Jews nor his disciples really understood all this when Jesus was on earth. Only later would they comprehend.
The NC Sabbath explains why the first Gentile converts, who were Roman soldiers and slaves, could join the church without any Sabbath issues. All these Gentiles “worked” on the 7th day, and they were not going to start following OC Judaism on this point or any other, like circumcision.
Had the OC Sabbath still been in place for the church, it would have been sinful for any slave or soldier to work on the 7th day.
If the OC Sabbath was binding on the church, the Gentiles would have to dramatically change their lifestyles before following Christ; those who were Roman Soldiers would have to quit, and the slaves would have to become free. They too had to work on the 7th day. They were never going to get off for religious reasons as people do today.
But guess what? They did not have to ask because the NC Sabbath allows for all manner of work on the 7th day.
In the NC, the Sabbath is not for rest, but for activity and work. While it is still the correct day for the church to meet in Gospel fellowship and praise to God, there are no rules against work as in Judaism. This dramatic change allowed the Gentiles to join the church.
Those so foolish today, like the SDA’s, that think the OC Sabbath is binding on the church, have fallen from grace. They do not understand the Gospel correctly, nor do they have Eternal Life. They are in serious danger of being lost, even though they assume to have found salvation in Christ. They are wrong. They have embraced a false Christ, an incorrect doctrine of the Sabbath, and a worthless Gospel.
Carlton said: Priestly work (i.e temple ministry) is not what the principle of the 4th commandment is concerned about.
Tom said: Correct. The 4th Commandment did not apply to the Levites. It only applied to those who were NOT priests of God. Which was everyone but the Levites.
Regardless, the point of the Sabbath, for both people and Priests, in either the OC or the NC, is to remember the Creator and not forget him. This was the point before the OC law existed, after it existed, and today, under the NC.
In the NC, Jesus teaches the Priesthood of all Believers. This doctrine is the theological basis for the NC Sabbath. Just as the Levites were granted an EXEMPTION from the rules of the 4th Commandment, so too the Christian Priests, --which is everyone in the church. This is why there is no record of anyone being guilty of Sabbath breaking in the apostolic church. They were all free to work on the 7th day.
It is the CHANGE IN THE PRIESTHOOD that creates the NC Sabbath of Christ. Don’t get confused by the details of what the Levites did or did not do. When the priesthood changed from OC to NC, so too did the law about the Sabbath. This is Gospel Truth.
Heb. 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
This explains why the Sabbath law was changed from an OC to NC doctrine. Jesus is greater than any law, or any Temple, even as the original Sabbath doctrine will stand forever.
Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
Matt. 12:7 “But if you had known what this 1means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
1Pet. 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
To understand the NC Sabbath is to understand the Gospel.
Carlton said: The spirit of the law is not go to church and then go to the factory, office or mall to work.
Tom said: Agreed. But guess what? The church is not the same as OC Judaism. Christians do not follow the “spirit of the law,” nor are they “under” the 10 Commandment law. Rather, they are under the “law of Christ,” aka, the “law of faith.”
Those who try to follow the Spirit of the Law, and seek to obey the 4th Commandment by not working on the 7th day, have fallen from grace. They have embraced a “yoke of slavery.”
Gal. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal. 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, (or practice tithing or OC Sabbath keeping), Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, (or pays tithe or keeps the Sabbath by not working), that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
It is not easy to understand the Gospel today. Nor was it easy for those in the 1st century. In fact, the leaders of the apostolic church became so confused about the Gospel that they ended up preaching a false doctrine that was strongly condemned by Paul.
No wonder that the same thing has happened today. If Peter and James could misunderstand the Gospel, promoting error about the teachings of Christ, so too the pathetic leaders today, who are much less than apostles.
The SDA’s, like the Jews, have ruined themselves because of their obsession with the law. Law, law, law, is what they are all about. They don’t know or understand the Gospel, which is very different from Law.
It is time for the Adventists to turn their backs on the Old Covenant and the law and turn towards Christ and his Gospel, embracing the Spirit of Christ and the law of Christ, which is also known as the “law of faith.” It is time for NC Adventism.
Rom. 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Rom. 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom. 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
Gal. 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
Rom. 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Those who are following the genuine Christ and his Spirit will understand what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath and what he does not. Misunderstand the NC Sabbath, and the Gospel will also be misunderstood. This is what has taken place with every church and denomination in the world, including the stubborn and incompetent SDA’s.
Carlton said: When you class all work as priestly work, in my view you make a mistake and do not see the purpose of the spirit of the 4th commandment:
Tom replied: The 4th Commandment DID NOT APPLY TO THE LEVITES.
While the Spirit of the OC Law does promote rest on the 7th day, the Spirit of Christ does not. Which Spirit are you going to follow? Law or Gospel?
Here is the point: ALL that follow Christ are “classified” as being priests of God. There are no Levites in the church. Thus EVERYONE in the church is now equal, all are Priests. Both men and women.
Here is the theological basis for the NC Sabbath of Christ. Just as the Levites received an exemption from the 4th Commandment, so too the Christian Priesthood, thanks to the High Priest, Jesus Christ, who is also the Lord and protector of the NC Sabbath doctrine.
All work that is done by any church member on the 7th day is covered by the Priestly exemption given to the church by Christ. The fact that so few know the true Gospel Sabbath is beside the point. The Gospels are clear about what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, and the Temple for that matter, which is now the church body, the members, not the building.
Carlton said: Have a day of rest, take the opportunity to fellowship with God's people in public worship (Heb 10:25, Acts 13:42 - 44).
Tom said: I notice that you did not quote Christ. Why is that? Jesus is the author of the NC Sabbath. He has much to say about it. Why do so many ignore what Jesus teaches about the 7th day? Very strange.
While all SDA’s have all been brainwashed into thinking that the Sabbath is for rest, this is wrong. That is the OC view from Jewish Law. We live under the NC, not the OC, (except for SDA’s, they love the OC and live under it.) What Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath is what the church must follow. Not what the Jews teach or what the Jewish law demands.
Although work is no longer restricted on the 7th day, the congregational aspect of the Sabbath is still functional. It is still the correct day for the church to meet in Gospel fellowship and praise. It is still a doctrine that upholds God and Christ as the creator of the world.
Carlton said: All the ministry that Christ performed on Sabbath was in fulfilment of the prophecy of Isaiah 61:
Tom said: This passage in no way refutes what Christ teaches about the Gospel Sabbath.
Carlton said: If you can show where Jesus did some carpentry on Sabbath or encouraged his disciples to do some fishing, tax collecting or building work on Sabbath then you can say that the Gospel does indeed teach that Christ abolished the laws prohibiting work on Sabbath. Until then I assume this is you opinion again.
Tom replied: Jesus was on a Gospel mission from God. At the start of his public ministry, he was a healer, leaving behind his former craft as a builder. Healers were not allowed to heal on the 7th day anymore than builders were allowed to repair homes. So he was making the same point, even though it has been lost on many.
Luke 13:14 But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, “There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day.”
Moreover, the Jews well understood where Jesus new teachings would lead. All the Jewish leaders would be removed, and so too the Levites and OC Judaism would disappear. The food laws would also be ignored and Sabbath breaking would be encouraged. Circumcision would be outlawed, and the Temple marginalized, thus Judaism would be ruined by these new teachings of Jesus, which would allow the Gentiles to enter the Kingdom of God on an equal basis with Jews.
The Jews rejected the NC teachings of Christ in favor of the OC status quo. Then they lost what they had so desperately tried to preserve and were destroyed.
Carlton said: You also say that he reformed the OC Sabbath law, but actually did he simply live the way the law was meant to be applied?
Tom said: No. The law was clear that no one, except a Levite, could do any work on the 7th day. In fact, God told Moses to stone a man to death who was caught gathering sticks on the Sabbath to start a fire.
So this idea that Jesus was correcting the errors of the Jews about Sabbath keeping is dead wrong. Jesus was teaching a very new and different Sabbath doctrine to the Jews as part of the Gospel. It stunned and enraged them. And it will do the same to all who are legalists and hate the Gospel.
Carlton said: As the law giver he knew what was intended and understood how it was corrupted, the way I see it he simply lived in harmony with the OC laws, particularly the 10 commandments according to the spirit of the law.
Tom replied: Jesus came to replace the OC with the NC. He knew that the OC Law was temporary, and so too the OC Sabbath. Jesus introduced the NC to the Jews and invented the church in the process. He knew what he was doing, and thus his NC Sabbath was not meant to support the OC whatsoever. Rather, Christ designed the NC Sabbath for the church. What a pity that all have forsaken Christ and his Gospel Sabbath? No wonder the PAJ is so harsh?
Carlton said: Where, for example, we have a duty to break the law at times (James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?) Similarly if we need to feed someone it is okay to cook, purchase food in order to feed a stranger that we encounter on Sabbath.
Tom said: The law does not contain or show mercy. Nor is it the duty of anyone living under the law to break it. Such myths are dangerous. Those who break the law must pay. Period.
Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”
Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Jesus preaches the Gospel, not the law. His NC Sabbath is not of law, but of faith, which features the Gospel over the law. This is why it is no longer sinful to work on the 7th day. The Gospel Sabbath is a living metaphor of the freedom of the Gospel, where the teachings of Jesus trump law.
Carlton said: However, the Sabbath is still the 7th day. And it is still a m.
Tom replied: Yes, the 7th day is still the Sabbath. For those under the law, like the Jews or the SDA’s, it is the OC Sabbath that is embraced.
However, for those under the Gospel and the law of Christ, it is the active and reformed NC Sabbath that is followed.
The Sabbath we embrace reflects on our choice of theology. Those who misunderstand Christ and what he teaches, will embrace a false view of the Sabbath. While those who pay attention to Christ and his genuine Gospel, will only embrace his NC, 7th day Sabbath.
Let all that are wise, choose the correct Gospel Sabbath, as well as the genuine Christ, the Lord of the NC Sabbath.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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Adventist Leaders Probe the Reality of Church Departures: One in three members leave over the past 50 years.
This is how the church leaders describe this crisis. However, here is a better, more honest description, one that the leaders don’t want to admit:
“Glacier View, Results In: Millions Leave SDA Church”
It is clear that 21st century Adventism is disoriented, divided, and self-destructing. In fact, the church has recently admitted that in the last 48 years, over 10 MILLION members have left the church. I think this is the first time such a fact has been made public.
This stunning number does not include the many members still on the books that no longer attend or believe what the church teaches. That additional number would add many more millions, perhaps closer to five million or more. This represents a 50% turnover rate during this period.
Thus, for every 10 members that joins, at least 5 leave, not 3, as the church now states. And this number may be way too low. In other words, the rate of people leaving after 1980 was much greater than in 1960 or 1970. After the Glacier View and Walter Rea debacles, the rate of those leaving increased dramatically. The leaders still refuse to be honest about the numbers or why so many leave the church.
Regardless, such large numbers of people leaving means there is a serious problem, one that is not sustainable over the long or short period. Today, the rate of those leaving the church has reached a tipping point. It is not 33% as the church pretends, which is bad enough. The real percentage today, is much higher, more like 50%- 75%. The SDA's are imploding, and for good reason.
People join, and then they find out about all these doctrinal problems that were hidden from their view. They study and talk and get online where they find legions of former SDA’s telling them a very different and very negative story about Adventist history and theology.
These new members are shocked to learn about 1888 and Glacier View. They are shocked to see so much division, debate, and corruption, as well as so much Old Covenant doctrine. Then they leave. It is a cycle that cannot be stopped by Public Relations or “retraining.” The problem, and the solution, is all about doctrine. A point the SDA’s continue to deny.
The Advent Community is so divided and confused that there are far more former SDA’s then there are current and active ones in North America. The majority of North American Adventists have already left the church because of IJ. They will never come back unless and until there is serious Gospel Reform. Which is not contemplated by the leaders.
This disaster, which was predicted long ago by Ellen White, screams for correction and leadership. But there is none. The OC Pharisees are in control of the church and they have no intention of letting go or searching for NC truth. The refusal to repent and reform will be the end of the Advent Movement. If the SDA’s don’t wake up and address the real issues, which are doctrinal in nature, they are finished.
It may already be too late for the Jews, err, I mean the SDA’s. But if that is the case, others will take up their noble mission and go forward in Gospel Truth, preparing the world for the tribulation and the 2nd Coming, which is the Day of Judgment for the world. Eschatology will not wait for the SDA’s. Others will proclaim the Gospel Sabbath and the Judgment correctly and the final events will take place regardless what the Adventists do.
For the record, Jesus predicted that the divided SDA’s would fall, which is exactly what is taking place in front of our eyes. The SDA’s are crippled by division, error, and schism; as a result, millions and millions have left, and many more millions will follow unless there is Gospel Reformation.
Luke 11:17 “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and a house divided against itself falls.
The Adventism kingdom is being divided and “laid waste” for a reason. They have brought all this woe on themselves, just like the Jews, who also refused to repent, and be honest with the Gospel.
Here are the latest official figures. They are stunning.
“If numbers were needed to explain why the group was gathered, David Trim, director of Archives, Statistics, and Research, provided them plainly in his program welcome:”
“The starkest answer comes from denominational statistics: from 1965, when apostasies and “missing” members were first reported in official Adventist statistics, through the end of 2012, a total of 10,527,042 baptized SDAs separated from the denomination.”
“In these past 48 years, there have been a total of 30,657,430 baptized church members—so that those who left our ranks were 34.34% of all church members in this period.”
See:Shutting The Back Door/Nov 20, 2013
http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2013/1 … -back-door
Of course if someone looked deeper into these figures it would become obvious that most who left, did so after 1980, when the church exiled Dr. Ford. Glacier View was the start of a great schism that is still ongoing today. There is no use for the leaders to continue to deny the sad facts of history.
However, rather then give such a telling figure that would show the real problem, the leaders are trying to cover up the results of Glacier View by starting with the date of 1965. This trick also lowers the drop out rate, when it is actually much higher after 1980. Such are the games that the leaders play in order to hide their real problems.
In fact, rather then using this crisis to push the church towards re-examining and correcting their faulty doctrines, the blind leaders are trying diversions and institutional double-talk. This is because they do not think that they have any false doctrines, nor are they ready to admit that people leave because of theology, which underlies all behavior. They are in a state of fatal denial, just like the Jews who killed Christ.
Here is the leaders misguided response:
“With one third of baptized Seventh-day Adventist church members slipping out the back door, officials at the General Conference have decided it is time to address the issue in a major way. To do so, academic researchers and church administrators are meeting this week in Silver Spring to discuss the data and suggest a strategy to reverse the trend during the “Summit on Nurture and Retention, 2013: Discipling, Retaining, and Reclaiming”.
So rather then repent and embrace Gospel Reform, these Jews, err, I mean SDA’s, are planning more mind control and “retraining.” They think they can figure out a way to ignore the real problems and yet still save the church, -false doctrines and all. They have learned nothing from the legions that have left. They live in denial and rule with arrogance and incompetence. Such a pathetic formula is doomed.
In fact, as the leaders review these awful statistics, they still can’t be honest about why people leave Adventism. They refuse to believe that they have any false doctrine, or that their errors of theology are driving millions away, even turning them into angry critics.
They also refuse to tell the truth about 1888 as well as Glacier View and still deny the massive fraud inside the White Estate. They live in a fantasy world of denial and delusion, like blind, evil men that refuse to follow Christ.
Look at the false reasons given for this crisis:
“Monte Sahlin from the Center for Creative Ministry, began researching the “drop-out” problem in 1980. He presented his most recent data from an international study done in 2012 and 2013.”
“He listed the reasons people gave for why they stopped attending church: 28% said there were no big issues, they just drifted away, 25% cited a lack of compassion in the church for the hurting, 19% admitted it was because of a moral failure on their part, 18% said they did not fit in, 14% said there was too much focus on small issues, 11% called out the moral failure on the part of leaders. ”
How is it possible that millions and millions of members have left the church, and yet, none of them leave because of false doctrine?
NONE.
Really?
This is not possible.
It is absurd and false, like most everything the dishonest SDA’s do today. I am ashamed of the SDA’s. They have turned double-talk and dishonesty into an art form; propaganda is what they are all about. They are very much like the tithe paying, Sabbath keeping Jews that killed Christ.
Listen to Monte Sahlin promote this myth that SDA’s do not leave the church over doctrine. Such fiction is getting tiresome.
“The notion of people dropping out because of something the church does or a doctrinal disagreement is not apparent in the data,” Sahlin said.
“It’s been shown that a member of a church board is just as likely to disagree with one of the church’s 28 Fundamental Beliefs as someone who’s been disfellowshiped.”
At First Retention Summit, Leaders Look at Reality of Church Departures
Posted November 21, 2013
http://adventistreview.org/church-news/ … departures
Does Monte realize what he said? At the same time this church leader was declaring that doctrine is the not the problem, he accidentally admits the truth that no one in Adventism is united and agreed on doctrine. He admits, “It has been shown” that even the board members of the local churches are confused and divided about doctrine.
Hello? Is anyone home? THIS IS THE PROBLEM. Not even the local board members are united on doctrine. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. There is no doctrinal credibility or unity in the SDA church.
This goes for all levels including the leaders, pastors, teachers, scholars, board members, new members, old members, and young people. Even the choir members hold different and conflicting views about SDA doctrine. The Adventist church is in DOCTRINAL CHAOS.
There is no other way to describe the situation. No wonder people keep leaving? How can they not? The SDA’s don’t even agree with themselves, much less anyone else. They are out of control having created so much doctrinal error and confusion that they are destroying their historic mission and ruining their Protestant message. They are making fools of themselves for all to see.
Let all understand: the crisis in the SDA church is all about doctrine. Monte Sahlin is either an incompetent fool not to know this, or a great liar. After so many years of double-talk, I get sick of hearing such foolishness. This is pathetic. No wonder the members get fed up. All the leaders need to be fired and the church re-organized under Gospel principles.
Here is a thread that discusses why people leave the church. It clearly refutes the dishonest spin of the leaders.
Leaving the SDA Church
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=233
People leave Adventism to get away from such mindless excuses and double-talk that only serve to support false doctrine. Whenever these leaders open their mouths, out comes utter nonsense in the defense of one false doctrine after another. People get sick of this garbage after so many years and leave. The only ones that seem to stay are those who are PAID to stay, like Monte.
Phony surveys will only reveal phony results. But guess what? The SDA’s know what they are doing. They know very well that they have legions of critics, both inside and outside of the church that complain about their many false doctrines, starting with the IJ. But they refuse to admit they were wrong at Glacier View, pretending people leave for reasons other than doctrine.
So goes the endless propaganda and lies from these wolves in sheep’s clothing.
How can this “brood of vipers” not escape going to hell?
Matt. 23:33 “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
I repeat: here we have a phony survey that was designed to exclude the possibility that people leave because of false doctrine. There is not even a category for false doctrine. However, there is a category for those who say it was their fault. 19% supposedly claim that they are the problem, while 14% complained about the issues being too small, whatever that is supposed to mean. Only 11% blamed the “moral failure” of the leaders, which has nothing to do with false doctrine.
Here is a good example of why the SDA’s are losing millions. They are outrageous liars that cannot admit that they have taught any false doctrine all these years. They spend millions of $$ on these studies, but yet, there is not even a category where “False Doctrine” is an issue. People can see through such dishonest, cultic hubris.
The SDA’s refuse to believe the facts that condemn them, even as they are delusional to the extreme, fooling no one but themselves. People do not like professional liars, who only view them as sources of income. So they leave by the millions. No amount of PR can repair the betrayed trust of the Advent leaders. Their only hope is to repent and reform.
I have personally spoken with thousands of SDA’s from 1965 to 2012 and most all of them have serious issues about doctrine. Which is why most people leave. But yet, the church is in such denial that they have no category for false doctrine. Instead, they claim 28% just “drifted away” having no doctrinal issues. Another 25% say “lack of passion.” And so the silly list goes.
What does a lack of passion even mean? This sounds like a survey for a daytime Soap Opera.
People do not even talk this way, so it is clear that the leaders are playing games and placing words in peoples mouths because they can’t stand the truth, which is, - that many are furious at all the false doctrine in the church, starting with the IJ. The majority leave because of doctrine.
I am one of them. I would not waste my time listening to an SDA sermon. What they teach is full of myth and fiction; they do not understand the Gospel or the fundamentals of the Advent Movement.
So I must protest this self-serving drivel and misdirection. The SDA leaders do not know how to tell the truth, even when it is staring them in the face. They are great liars, for which they need to repent. The SDA’s have gone corrupt. They no longer search for, or care about, truth. People see that and understandably want nothing to do with them.
No amount of Public Relations is going to hide the fact that the SDA’s have a false Gospel and legions of false doctrines. There is no way to hide such obvious facts in this age of instant information. But they will no doubt spend $millions in such a futile exercise, just as they have been doing for decades.
People leave the SDA’s because they are full of false doctrine and historical myths. They have no credible Gospel or eschatology. They are great legalists and Judaizers, very much like the Jews that killed Christ. Their propaganda only makes matters worse, and creates more angry critics.
Let all understand: People leave the church because they don’t believe in the IJ, or that Ellen White has doctrinal authority. They also leave because many have come to understand that OC Sabbath keeping and tithing are against the NC. And they will keep leaving so long as the SDA’s pretend they have Gospel Truth when they do not.
There is no hope for the divided, foolish, and self-destructing SDA’s so long as they continue to think they have no doctrinal errors to correct. Such an arrogant and impossible position, which was never embraced by Ellen White, will only further exacerbate the crisis.
"If the pillars of our faith will not stand the test of investigation, it is time that we knew it; for it is foolish to become set in our ideas, and think that no one should interfere with our opinions.” EGW, Bible Echo, October 15, 1892.
Millions and millions of former SDA’s correctly understand that they have been taught legions of false doctrine. It is “foolish” for the leaders to pretend this is not true, refusing to honestly “investigate” what is obviously not working.
Ellen White would be the first to demand repentance and honest reform. She never believed that the SDA’s had all the truth in her day, and nothing has happened since her death in 1915 that would change that assessment. Listen to Ellen White:
"The character and prospects of the people of God are similar to those of the Jews, who could not enter in because of unbelief. Self-sufficiency, self-importance, and spiritual pride separated them from God, and He hid His face from them. . . ."
“The Jews despised the good that was proffered them in the time of Christ, and after the long forbearance of God, the things that were for their peace were hidden from their eyes—that which, if received, would have been to them their greatest blessing became their stumbling block. Thus it is today among us. . . .”
“The light of truth is shining upon us as clearly as it shone upon the Jewish people, but the hearts of men are as hard and unimpressible as in the days of Christ, because they know not what they oppose. Many who claim to be standing in the light are in darkness, and know it not. They have so enshrouded themselves in unbelief that they call darkness light, and light darkness. They are ignorant of that which they condemn and oppose. But their ignorance is not such as God will excuse, for He has given them light, and they reject it…11MR 286-287
It is time for all to understand that the divided and confused SDA’s are full of false doctrine and manipulated church history, just like the 1st century Jews. They have gone corrupt years ago. Most everything they say, do, and teach, is false and misguided. They need Gospel Reform in the worst way or they will continue to self-destruct for all to see.
Mark 3:24 “If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Mark 3:25 “If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.
Mark 3:26 “If Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but he is finished!
The SDA’s are “finished” if they cannot figure out how to repent and become united on genuine Gospel doctrine, including the Sabbath, which they have wrong.
Only by repentance and Gospel Reform will the Denomination ever figure out how to stop their well-deserved implosion that will only get worse. No amount of PR, double-talk, or fancy graphics will solve this crisis of theology, which is dividing and destroying the Advent Movement for all to see.
The leaders must repent and embrace Gospel Reform, or the SDA’s are “finished.”
Millions have been misled, disappointed, and abused by Old Covenant Adventism. It is time to for the Adventist Community to repent and embrace New Covenant Adventism.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm
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Question for Tom Norris:
Hello Tom,
I am new to this whole situation, but have been on a fast study.
May I put it in a quick, nutshell?
Let me know if I am close.
The message is: If man truly understands what Christ did for us, that we are saved by His actions, all we need to do is have faith in what He said and did.
Knowing what He did and went thru for us, compells us to accept His love and want to be obediant to His desires for us, commandments, statutes and judgements.
Question for you:
Do you feel like the rejected 1888 message would have also encompassed the rejection of the statutes, moral law?
I am not sure how Ford and Glacier View tie into 1888.
It looks like Ford was trying to say the foundation of 1844 was incorrect. And if I understand correctly, how would Ellen White have supported that view?
Thanks in advance,
In Christ we Live
Randy Gilbert
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6
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Tom Answered:
Glad to meet you. It is a good thing to study the Gospel and church history. There is a lot of information online about Adventist Reform that you need to read.
See:
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=11
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm
Randy replied: May I put it in a quick, nutshell? Let me know if I am close.
Tom said: Fine.
Randy stated: The message is: If man truly understands what Christ did for us, that we are saved by His actions, all we need to do is have faith in what He said and did.
Tom said: This is true, so long as one clearly and correctly understands what Christ has done for us and how we receive Eternal Life and the forgiveness of sin.
What exactly did Jesus teach about saving faith? This question must be answered correctly before one can have proper, saving faith.
See: Law & Gospel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1122
Many are following a false Christ, and thus they are also following one false doctrine after another from this fraud. Faith in such a Christ, and such a Gospel, is worthless. Beware of False Christ’s and worthless faith.
Randy said: Knowing what He did and went thru for us, compels us to accept His love and want to be obedient to His desires for us, commandments, statutes and judgments.
Tom said: Again, this is true, so long as one understands what Christ teaches and what he does not. The devil is in the details, and there are plenty of false Christ’s, all pretending that we should follow and obey them instead of the genuine Jesus of the Gospels.
Moreover, Jesus teaches that only 25% of those that hear the Gospel, will understand and embrace it for Eternal Life. Sad but true. Let’s hope we are in this special minority. (Mark 4:3 “Listen to this! Behold, the sower went out to sow;)
Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Consider this: Jesus is the “Lord of the Sabbath,” but which Sabbath is the genuine doctrine that identifies the real Christ?
There are many different and mutually exclusive doctrines of the Sabbath in the church, which means there are many false views of Christ and the Gospel. So which one is real? Which version of the Sabbath does Jesus want his followers to embrace, if any?
Randy asked: Do you feel like the rejected 1888 message would have also encompassed the rejection of the statutes, the moral law?
Tom said: Yes. The 1888 debate was focused on the book of Galatians, and what role the Moral law played in the New Covenant.
1888
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … oversy.htm
Had the SDA’s been honest in 1888, they would have come to the conclusion that they were wrong about both the Law and the Gospel. Then they could have made the required doctrinal changes to the Sabbath and their eschatology.
But they were too much like the legalistic Jews, and thus they failed to understand the Gospel and the Sabbath correctly, self-destructing as a result. (Which is why they retreated to Takoma Park).
Listen to Ellen White:
“You will meet with those who will say, "You are too much excited over this matter. You are too much in earnest. You should not be reaching for the righteousness of Christ, and making so much of that. You should preach the law… As a people, we have preached the law until we are as dry as the hills of Gilboa that had neither dew nor rain.” Review, March 11, 1890.
Uriah Smith taught that the law in Galatians was the ceremonial law; not the Moral law. Thus when Paul says that the law is our “schoolmaster” or “tutor,” he was only referring to the ceremonial law, not the Moral law.
Gal. 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Such a (Roman Catholic) view of Galatians protected and enabled the SDA view of the Sabbath, as well as their Sunday based eschatology that had developed around the 4th Commandment. But it was very wrong. The Adventists had misunderstood Galatians and the Gospel, as well as eschatology.
Uriah Smith’s theology would not allow him to take any position that would change or repudiate the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, which was at the center of SDA theology. He never relented and went to his grave with a false Gospel, thinking that the law in Galatians was only about the ceremonial law. And that his salvation was based on his obedience to the Moral law, also known as sanctification, which would be judged in the IJ.
Smith, like many SDA’s, never understood the Protestant Gospel. He was fired from the Review, as a result.
However, Waggoner, who is the hero of 1888, had been reading Luther’s Commentary on Galatians. He agreed with Luther, and all Protestants, that the law in Galatians was also the Moral law. Thus he concluded that the SDA’s were wrong about how they viewed the Two Covenants and the Gospel.
If Waggoner was correct, and he was, and so too Luther, then the SDA’s had the wrong view not only of the Two Covenants, but also of the Law and the Sabbath. Which is why Uriah Smith would never admit the possibility that he was wrong. To do so would have meant an end to the Sabbath as it was being taught by SDA’s.
If Waggoner were correct, the SDA’s would have to update and change their eschatology, as well as what they were teaching about salvation, the law, and the Sabbath.
So 1888 had serious implications for the Advent Movement. The fate of the Sabbath, as well as the definition of the Gospel would be determined by the outcome.
Too bad the church failed to do the right thing in 1888. Gospel Reform was rejected by the leaders, and so too Ellen White. There was no Gospel Reform or eschatological improvements. Just a cover-up by Daniels, which to this day has not been admitted, much less confessed and the record corrected.
This paradigm changing debate that was never resolved by the leaders, even to this very day. Which explains why it left so many SDA’s in Battle Creek and later Takoma Park, so confused, divided, and disoriented.
Waggoner was correct, and so too Ellen White who not only supported Waggoner’s (Luther’s) view, but actually received a dream whereby she was informed that Waggoner’s view was correct. But it did not matter. The leaders, led by Uriah Smith, refused to consider they could be wrong.
Rather, they concluded that Ellen White was no longer spiritually gifted, because they did not like what she had to say.
Both Waggoner and Ellen White were exiled far from Battle Creek in 1891 for daring to challenge Smith’s traditional view of the Two Covenants and the Law in Galatians. This is why Ellen White was in Australia during the last decade of the 1890’s. She was sent there on purpose to get her out of Battle Creek.
Within 12 years after 1888, the Denomination was so confused, divided, and disoriented, that the majority of SDA’s in Battle Creek, including many leaders like Kellogg, Waggoner, and AT Jones, turned against the denomination, sick of all the debating and legalism. There was a great schism and the SDA’s were run out of town in disgrace and humiliation..
This is why the leaders came to Takoma Park. Their Battle Creek Empire had collapsed for all to see. But guess what? The SDA’s refused to learn from their mistakes, so their Takoma Park Empire would also self-destruct, thanks to Glacier View, where Dr. Ford would play the role of Waggoner, and once again try to reform the legalistic and blind SDA’s.
Randy asked: I am not sure how Ford and Glacier View tie into 1888.
Tom said: Glacier View was a replay of 1888. It was essentially the same Gospel fight, except that 1888 focus was on Galatians and the Moral law, while Glacier View featured the book of Daniel and the doctrine of the IJ, where obedience to the Moral law was judged for personal salvation.
1888 focused on the 1st Pillar in the 1st Angels Message, which is the Gospel. Glacier View focused on the 2nd Pillar, the Judgment Pillar, which speaks about “the hour of his Judgment has come” in Rev 14: 7.
The church was wrong in both 1888 and 1980. They are still wrong today. Unless they repent for both of these failed Gospel discussions, correct the record, and update their doctrines, including the Gospel and the Sabbath, they are doomed.
Randy said: It looks like Ford was trying to say the foundation of 1844 was incorrect. And if I understand correctly, how would Ellen White have supported that view?
Tom said: Dr. Ford was standing up for the original “pillars” and the correct doctrinal foundation of the Advent Movement. Few understand this point. He was protecting the genuine and correct foundations of Adventism, which Ellen White endorsed.
Although what Ford said was shocking to those living in Takoma Park in the 1970’s, -it was true nonetheless.
If true, then why was everyone shocked?
Because the church had been teaching a false view of the Gospel and the Judgment, misstating these doctrines from Historic Adventism.
In other words, the White Estate had done what Ellen White said could never happen. They changed the foundational pillars of the Advent Movement, and pretended that this is what Ellen White taught, when this was not the case whatsoever.
What all 20th century SDA’s were taught about both the Gospel and the Judgment, which are the first two pillars of the Three Angels Messages, is not true or correct. Nor did Ellen White support either a legalistic Gospel or the IJ, as the fulfillment of the Rev 14:7.
The modern Adventist Community has been horribly misled and deceived by their leaders about the doctrinal foundations of the Advent Movement. When Dr. Ford tried to bring the church back to the genuine fundamentals, the leaders went to war against him, forcing all to embrace their myths and errors as truth when they are no such things.
Dr. Ford knew that the White Estate was not being honest about 1844 or 1888. Dr. Ford was a scholar and he had the facts. The leaders only had myths that were based on a massive fraud in the White Estate. To this day they have never told the truth about church history or doctrine, nor do they want to.
Dr. Ford protested the false, law based Gospel, from Uriah Smith that was being taught in both Battle Creek and Takoma Park. He knew that it was wrong to base our salvation on law keeping, and the SDA leadership should have also known this theological fact.
After all, the leaders had Ellen White’s 1888 documents that showed she stood with Waggoner. They had the facts all the time.
So they knew what Ellen White really said about these things. But they didn’t like her mature Gospel views, so they covered them up and pretended her earlier legalistic views were correct and true. They knew what they were doing was incorrect and wrong. But yet, they still do it today. The SDA’s are the world’s greatest liars and this is why millions have left them.
Dr. Ford stood in the right side of history; he supported the Protestant view of the law in Galatians and the Judgment, just like Luther, William Miller, and Ellen White. This idea that Ford was attacking Ellen White, or any correct doctrine from Historic Adventism is nothing more than slander and misdirection.
Dr. Ford was 100% correct. The SDA’s have a false view of the law and the Gospel, which must be corrected. They even have a false view of how the Pioneers viewed such things, thanks to the fraud of the White Estate.
For example, what the White Estate has said about Ellen White endorsing the IJ as the Judgment pillar in Rev 14: 7 is false, false, and false. It never happened.
Ellen White never took such a position, and neither did any 19th century SDA, not even Uriah Smith. Dr. Ford caught the White Estate promoting one myth and error after another, when they had the facts. They are great liars.
The White Estate is a crime scene. It is time for them to go into lockdown until they can repent and clean up this massive fraud, which has ruined Ellen White’s name and misled everyone about the definition of the Fundamentals that define the Advent Movement.
The White Estate (and the Review) were responsible for Glacier View, which has ruined the Denomination. It is time to stop pretending that Dr. Ford did anything wrong, much less dishonest. He is a Gospel hero, a true supporter of New Covenant Adventism. The White Estate has betrayed Ellen White, and the Advent Community with their outrageous fraud and incompetent misdirection.
I repeat: Dr. Ford was correct to protest this fictional pillar called the IJ. This dubious doctrine was never viewed as the great Judgment pillar from Historic Adventism, nor did Ellen White ever take such a position. The leaders have been lying about this critical point for generations, and they are still doing it today. It needs to stop.
This is one reason I went public, because the truth about what the White Estate has done must be exposed. And so too the Gospel truth from Dr. Ford.
Everyone needs to understand the source for all the confusion, error, and double-talk in the SDA Community. It is the White Estate!
The White Estate is a cesspool of deliberate misinformation and deception. They are the primary reason why the Adventists have become divided and confused. They are the reason why the church has self-destructed. They are a cancer that must be treated or the Advent Movement will die.
So I say again: while the IJ was a favorite doctrine of Uriah Smith, not even this great legalist claimed it was the famous Judgment Pillar that pointed to the 2nd Coming. William Miller, Ellen White, and all the 19th century Adventists only viewed Rev 14:7 as the Judgment of the 2nd Coming, never the IJ.
Not only did Ford correctly teach that there is no such doctrine in the Bible as the IJ, and that such a doctrine is against the Gospel, he also pointed out that the 20th century church was not being honest about how this Judgment Pillar had been viewed within Adventism.
In other words, Dr. Ford caught the leaders dishonestly changing church history about the Advent Movement, and placing myths where true doctrines once stood. The White Estate had changed both the Gospel and the Judgment pillars into false doctrines that had no basis in either Protestant or Adventist doctrine or history.
This is why the Advent Movement is self-destructing. It is not from outside influences, but from the inside, from the very leaders themselves.
Ford’s position stunned the naive 20th century SDA church, which was deeply invested in a very legalistic view of the Gospel, supported by the IJ, which is a very false, Roman Catholic view of salvation.
Thus, Dr. Ford exposed modern Adventism as being very wrong about the fundamental points of the Three Angels Messages. He did not deny the original doctrines or pillars, only the false ones that had been invented in Takoma Park.
The Adventist Community, however, had no idea that such a theological and historical fraud had taken place, and thus most all considered that Dr. Ford was out of his mind, taking outrageous views that were against Ellen White and historic Adventism. He must be a heretic to say such things? How could the IJ not be a primary doctrine from historic Adventism? This is what all 20th century SDA’s were taught to believe from childhood.
While the 20th century Adventists were taught that the Judgment Pillar in Rev 14:7 was the IJ, and that it was a fundamental doctrine from historic Adventism, this was never true. The White Estate was, and still is, promoting great fraud and fiction about Ellen White and the IJ. THIS is why Adventism is so confusing, divided, and perplexing.
Let all understand that Ellen White supported what Dr. Ford was teaching about the IJ and the Gospel, but the White Estate refused to tell the truth. They had been lying for so long, to everyone, that to admit Dr, Ford was correct would have meant that they were wrong all these years.
Rather then confess and admit that they were hiding documents and making things up, they accused Dr. Ford of heresy, when they were the ones who were embracing and promoting false doctrine and dishonest history in the name of Ellen White. Instead of telling the truth and repenting, they continued to let everyone believe false views about Ellen White and Adventist theology.
The White Estate is the problem. Not Dr. Ford, Ellen White, or the genuine fundamentals of the Advent Movement.
Let everyone understand that a massive collection of documents, about the 1888 debate, were discovered at the Takoma Park General Conference in 1979 in both the Archives and White Estate. These original documents from Battle Creek proved that the church was not telling the truth about 1888, and that Dr. Ford was not attacking either the fundamentals or Ellen White.
So what happened?
Answer: The leaders covered up this great historical discovery, and went forward with a “show trial” against Dr. Ford in 1980. Thus Glacier View was a fraud, and so too was most of what the White Estate has been teaching everyone, even to this very day.
While few understood it at the time, Dr. Ford was correct on all points. Which is why Raymond Cottrell, supported Dr. Ford, and so too all honest scholars and historians. That’s why millions and millions of SDA’s left the church. They knew that their leaders had lied to them.
The facts of history do not change, and it has been a great waste of time for the SDA’s to have tried to change history in order to fit their dishonest and wrong views. It has backfired, and millions and millions have left the church as a result of all this error and confusion.
Dr. Ford proved that at no time was the IJ ever identified as the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message. This point alone was shocking and almost beyond belief. It went directly against Traditional Adventism and turned it upside down. And so it stands today; discredited and worthless.
Today, the SDA leaders are still lying to everyone about Ellen White’s view of the IJ. They refuse to believe that She NEVER said or taught that the IJ was the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message. But such are the facts that condemn Traditional Adventism.
Rev 14: 7 was, and is, only about the 2nd Coming as the Day of Judgment for the world. Such a fact of both history and theology overturns Traditional Adventism, even as it shows how dishonest and incompetent the SDA’s have been all these years.
In other words, there is no “IJ Pillar” in the Three Angels Messages, as Glacier View declared. There never was, and Ellen White never said otherwise. The GC is corrupt and the White Estate dishonest and incompetent beyond belief. But Dr. Ford is neither. Only the 2nd Coming is the Judgment Pillar in the Three Angels Messages.
Such a fact changes everything for the Adventist Community.
All that seek Gospel Truth owe Dr. Ford a debt of gratitude for defending the genuine pillars of the Advent Movement. Without his paradigm shifting work, we would not have known that the 20th century leaders were manipulating history, and erecting false doctrines in the place of what was once true doctrine.
Here is a thread that explains the proper Judgment doctrine in Rev 14:7.
The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227
Here is discussion about Ellen White:
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=225
Randy quoted: My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6
Tom said: A better text would be Rev 3: 14. This is the real Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church. (Not Dan 8: 14).
Here we see Jesus judging the last church as blind and naked, - unsaved, wretched, having one false doctrine after another, including the Sabbath.
This is a very good description of the SDA’s, who have been fighting the Gospel for generations. They are truly blind and corrupt for all to see.
The Advent Movement today is not called to defend their many false doctrines, much less promote Old Covenant Sabbath keeping or the IJ. Rather, they are called to acknowledge their many errors and zealously repent.
Rev. 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will 1spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
The Adventist Community has been turned into a wasteland at least twice, once in Battle Creek, and again in Takoma Park. Everyone needs to understand what has taken place and why.
In both the 19th and 20th centuries, the leaders betrayed the Gospel and abused the people. Two great schisms resulted.
Now in the 21st century, the leaders still don’t get it.
They are not sorry for anything because they don’t think they have any false doctrine or error to correct.
They still pretend that all should follow what they teach and pay them tithe for the privilege to hear their false doctrines and manipulated versions of church history.
They are still blind and delusional for all to see, having learned nothing from their many mistakes.
It is time for the Advent Movement to wake up and go forward, leaving those wolves in sheep’s clothing to their own myths and errors.
The sheep must follow the Good Shepherd, and move forward with him. He is leading all to repentance and Gospel Reformation.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Thanks for the reply Tom,
I read your email, but have not started into the links yet.
I feel that we are in a time of the " judgement of the living", because God has inserted Noah into Matthew 24.
Before I go into the links, I need for you to clear something up for me. It sounds like you are stating that we do not need to be obedient to Gods word, on the Sabbath.
Is this correct?
Randy
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Tom replied:
Randy,
What is God’s Word about the Sabbath? And what kind of Sabbath are we talking about? The Old Covenant Sabbath of Moses, or the New Covenant doctrine that Christ teaches in the Gospels? They are not the same.
God’s latest and best Word about the Sabbath comes from Christ in the Gospels.
Heb. 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
Heb. 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Whatever Jesus teaches in the Gospels about the 7th day Sabbath, is what the church must follow. We must be obedient to Christ in all things, including what he teaches about the reformed and active Lord’s day.
Here are some links that deals with this:
The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228
SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836
As for the Judgment of the Living, there is no such doctrine as the IJ. So this term no longer is true.
However, the Laodicean Message is the real Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church. Which means this (pre-Advent) judgment is over. The last church was condemned by Christ and told to repent. Case closed.
Those that pay attention and repent of the IJ, will go forward to better understand the final events.
There is a lot to learn online about Adventist Reform. It represents the correct path for the Advent Movement today.
Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom and Randy, Christ was born under the law of a virgin. Which law. What law was in force that had the copy in the Most Holy Place. For Tom to suggest that it was not the OC/OT Decalogue He was being held accountable for as our Savior is speculation on Tom's part. He sacrificed with his earthly family, attended the celebrations as well. The Sabbath had progressed as society had progressed. To say because a desert lifestyle that existed at the time of the giving of the Decalogue should be the same as at Christ's time or he Reformed it is absurd. His is Lord of the Sabbath and was showing how the OC Law was to be kept. But Tom has had verses like Col 2:16, 17, 2 Cor 3:7, Eph 2: 14-18, that show that a change occurred at the cross, as the Kingdom of God, the New Covenant was ushered in. For us to insist that there has to be a mandated worship day in the New Covenant because the Old had one, is a silly part of a hermeneutic that doesn't work. Also, Tom has a problem with
John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
He does not accept the words of Jesus about additional truths being presented by the Apostles and claims only the words of Jesus spoken on earth are truth. WOW. See what you would have to change in Christianity to believe that. Paul's commission as Paul relays it in
Acts 26:16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me..
As you talk with Tom, as I have over time, I realize he pits Paul against Jesus. Christ never gave the impression that he would retain a mandated worship day, and require it to be kept for salvation, which is what Tom Norris, Ted Wilson teach that will get them in trouble. Notice what Hank Handegraaff said about an SDA caller telling Hank he had the Mark of the Beast. I posted it here: http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1199
It was Hank's predecessor that had declared the SDAs a cult, and Hank removed that label, and how do we reward him, by confirming, maybe, Walter Martin was right.
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Randy said: Okay Tom, I went thru most of these threads. Yes it was done quickly.
In a nut shell this is what I think I got from it.
You said: Correct day, but wrong doctrine for the church.
So it looks like the doctrine of the 7th day sabbath is what the sda has wrong. Right?
You said: Jesus horrified the Law obsessed Jewish leaders because he was extending this priestly exclusion to all. He was doing away with the Levites and reforming OC Judaism without their permission. He was making the Sabbath into a joyful, guiltless doctrine that celebrated the Gospel, with its’ promise of Eternal Life and rest.
Then this must be the correct doctrine. All Gods people are priest, saviors, (Levites). A day of rest in the Lord, to help others to know their one and only true God.
This seems to be where we are already. I could be wrong.
As a side note: My wife and I were dis-fellowshipped about 2 weeks ago. Here is a link to a video that we put together and got to everyone before we were evicted.
We get into the judgment of the living, 1888 and the trinity. You might find it interesting.
Randy said: I feel that we are in a time of the " judgement of the living", because God has inserted Noah into Matthew 24.
Before I go into the links, I need for you to clear something up for me. It sounds like you are stating that we do not need to be obedient to Gods word, on the Sabbath.
Is this correct?
Tom said: The SDA’s have the right day. But Jesus did not teach it was for rest. He teaches an active Sabbath.
I suggest that you take the time to carefully read this material. I could change the entire direction of your reforms.
The SDA’s do not have the right view of the Sabbath. They have the same view as the Jews that killed Christ.
Moreover, there is no IJ, and thus there is no such term as the "Judgment of the Living." The Pre Advent Judgment of the last church has already taken place. Forget such error and nonsense from the SDA’s.
You need to pay serious attention to Adventist Reform as presented by Dr. Ford and Tom Norris. I fear you are heading down a false path, as the SDA’s before you.
It is time to reform and update the Advent Movement. Adventist Reform is the correct path. You need to pay attention to this Gospel Message.
Randy said: I said, then this must be the correct doctrine. All Gods people are priest, saviors, (Levites). A day of rest in the Lord, to help others to know their one and only true God.
Tom said: OK. I saw this. Good for you to see this point.
Randy said: I do not mean rest as in do nothing. The work is in helping others to know God. Or are you advocating that regular work for profit is okay?
Tom said: Work is work. Jesus’ NC Sabbath allows for any and all work, even if it is work for hire, on the 7th day. This is why the slaves and Roman soldiers could join the church and not have problems with the Sabbath. The New Covenant Sabbath is very different from the OC Sabbath.
Randy said: You keep repeating that Judgment of the living is the same as IJ, which is the judgment of the dead according to sda.
Tom said: This term comes from those that embrace the IJ. Your use seems different, but it is still wrong. Jesus here is teaching that all will be normal and peaceful, when the Judgment day comes as a surprise to everyone not paying attention.
So too Paul:
1Th. 5:3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
There is no Judgment taking place during this time period before the Tribulation. The PAJ, which is the LM, has already taken place. Those who were paying attention have repented and gone forward to Rev 18.
Randy said: I am using judgment of the living because it is in the NT Gospel. Read Matt 24
24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
This is telling us that there is a judgment of the living today as it was during the 120 years Noah preached.
Do you not agree with this or are you saying the anti-typical 120 years is already over?
Tom said: There is no anti-typical 120 years. We need to focus on real Gospel eschatology. The end of the world is going to take place and the church needs to be prepared and understand what is going to happen.
This is the destiny of the Advent Movement. The SDA’s no longer care about Gospel Truth. So we must all move on without them...
SDA Eschatology & Israel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=822
It is time to update the Adventist Movement.
Tom said: The SDA’s have been taught some very bad habits. It is very important that we all get a good grasp on hermeneutics. Only when the original context and chronology is respected, can the real meaning be understood.
Randy said: Here we see our Lord urging us to enter into His rest. So we are to work for profit while in His rest?
Tom said: This passage in Hebrews was neither written by, nor spoken by, Jesus. So it is not correct to assume that “Our Lord is urging us to enter his rest.”
The book of Hebrews does not contain the Sabbath instruction of Christ, which is found in the Gospels.
In fact, Jesus rarely spoke the word “rest” and when he did, he never associated “rest" with the Sabbath. Nor does the Gospels ever show the living Christ resting on the 7th day.
This idea of resting on the Sabbath is an Old Covenant teaching, not a Gospel one. This point is critical to understand.
Randy said: Would it not be a more peculiar people if the Romans and gentiles stopped what they were doing in the world and came to Him, as He would want?
Tom said: No! OC Judaism is not the same as NC Christianity. The Gospel Sabbath of Christ was not designed to mimic the 4th Commandment, but to free people from being under it. Jesus made this clear.
Thus it was no longer sinful to work on the 7th day. Those that think so, are not following Christ, but their own twisted version of him, which is false.
I hope this helps,
Keep studying
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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Randy, Tom said:
This passage in Hebrews was neither written by, nor spoken by, Jesus. So it is not correct to assume that “Our Lord is urging us to enter his rest.”
Again, Tom pits not only Paul against Jesus, but the Holy Spirit against Jesus. What an outrage!! I find no reason to follow Tom's rules, but Jesus said:
Matt 11:27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father [including the Sabbath]. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
What is "soul rest"? Rest from struggling to be good, be perfect, it is in fact the Chrstian struggle and Jesus saying if you accept me you can be at rest. The Sabbath is fulfilled in Jesus.
Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Remember when reading the NT, not Tom's rule but Jesus rules:
John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Tom, state verse and chapter where Des Ford preaches against this. You have to ask yourself at this point is all of God's words inspired by the Holy Spirit, or just the red letters?
Last edited by bob_2 (11-28-13 6:52 pm)
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Bob 2 said: Tom and Randy, Christ was born under the law of a virgin. Which law. What law was in force that had the copy in the Most Holy Place.
Tom said: Jesus was born under the OC law for the express purpose of CHANGING Judaism into the New Covenant.
Bob 2 said: For Tom to suggest that it was not the OC/OT Decalogue He was being held accountable for as our Savior is speculation on Tom's part.
Tom said: No need to speculate. We have the written record of the Gospels and thus we can know what Jesus teaches and what he does not. Jesus came to do the Gospel will of God, his Father. He was not sent here to “obey” the OC, but to obey God and change it into something much better.
Heb. 10:8 After saying above, “SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them” (which are offered according to the Law),
Heb. 10:9 then He said, “BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second.
John 8:28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
John 8:29 “And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.”
Jesus came to earth to follow his Fathers will; not to obey the law, or to show the Jews better ways to obey the Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: He sacrificed with his earthly family, attended the celebrations as well.
Tom said: Jesus was a very special Jew. Do not treat him otherwise. He was here on a mission to abolish the OC and bring in the NC Church, changing the history of the world in the process. Those who think otherwise do not understand the Gospel Story.
Bob 2 said: The Sabbath had progressed as society had progressed. To say because a desert lifestyle that existed at the time of the giving of the Decalogue should be the same as at Christ's time or he Reformed it is absurd. His is Lord of the Sabbath and was showing how the OC Law was to be kept.
Tom said: How did the Sabbath progress in Judaism? Did there come a time when it was no longer sinful to work on the 7th day? No. Or did it ever change into Sunday worship? No. So how did it “progress” as a doctrine?
The 4th Commandment was very clear and plain to every Jew and Gentile. Sabbath breaking was a Jewish offense that required death, except for the Levites. The entire world also understood how obsessive the Jews were about Sabbath keeping.
While the OC Jews could not imagine a time when the Sabbath Law could ever be changed, Jesus showed up and challenged such traditional thinking. He not only claimed to be in charge of the Sabbath doctrine, he also taught that God told him to change it into a very active day of works.
Such NC views were not only sinful and blasphemous to the Jews, so too Jesus’ claim that God told him, and showed, this new doctrine.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever 1the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
This idea that Jesus was teaching an improved version of the OC Sabbath is absurd and impossible. No. No. He was teaching the 7th day Gospel Sabbath for the church, where work was allowed without guilt.
Bob 2 said: But Tom has had verses like Col 2:16, 17, 2 Cor 3:7, Eph 2: 14-18, that show that a change occurred at the cross, as the Kingdom of God, the New Covenant was ushered in.
Tom said: Those that want to follow Christ, and learn what he teaches about the NC Sabbath, cannot go to Paul for the answer. Rather, they must find Jesus in the Gospels, the head theologian of the church, and the self-proclaimed Lord of the NC Sabbath.
Those who refuse to study this doctrine directly from Christ, choosing to find others who teach what they want to hear, are following a false Shepherd and a false Christ. This is why this issue is so important. Misunderstand the Reformed Sabbath of Christ, (as taught in the Gospels), and one will also misunderstand the Gospel, which is the only way sinners can be saved.
I repeat, anyone who claims Jesus words in the Gospels doesn’t count, or that they were only for the Jews, is doomed. Such silly excuses, which are meant to deny what Christ really teaches about the Sabbath, are futile and fatal.
Bob 2 said: For us to insist that there has to be a mandated worship day in the New Covenant because the Old had one, is a silly part of a hermeneutic that doesn't work.
Tom replied: Ha! This is comical. You have it all wrong. The reason there has to be a NC Sabbath is because this is what Jesus teaches in all four Gospels. Very simple concept.
Only a blind person could miss all this NC Sabbath instruction and debate in the four Gospels. What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath in the Gospels is what we must follow. Period! There should be no debate about such a view. But there is. Why? Because many do not like, or understand, what Jesus is saying. So they go elsewhere to learn a false view.
Bob 2 said: Also, Tom has a problem with John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Tom replied: It is the Gnostics that teach new truth will be given to men through the Spirit. Not only was this not true, their supposedly new truths rebutted what was already in the Gospels. Which is why the early church refused to allow a host of “Gospels” that told a different story from what the Apostles had written.
Those who play such games, do so for a reason. They don’t like the original Gospel Story. So they write up a new one and declare this is what Jesus really teaches, when in fact he teaches something else.
The Gnostic Gospels
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline … agels.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic_Gospels
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gnostics.html
Bob, this is what you are trying to do. Why? Because you are obsessed with the false Sabbath doctrine of NCT. It has a hold on you, like a drug. Sad and pitiful. So you run from Jesus, looking to others for Gospel truth.
Bob 2 said: Tom does not accept the words of Jesus about additional truths being presented by the Apostles and claims only the words of Jesus spoken on earth are truth. WOW. See what you would have to change in Christianity to believe that.
Tom said: All necessary Gospel Truth is found in the teachings of Jesus. He is the source for all truth and Eternal Life. His written words in the Gospels, and other places, like in Revelation, stand far above the words of all others.
Those who think otherwise are neither Christian nor are they saved. If Jesus does not teach xyz doctrine, then it is false doctrine. Period.
There are no “additional” Gospel truths aside from what Jesus has already taught and the apostles recorded. Sorry to be the one to tell you this, because you seem to think you have found a better source of Truth than Jesus in the Gospels. But such an assumption is foolish and very wrong. Many have gone beyond Jesus, making up whatever doctrines they like, but this is not how Gospel hermeneutics works. This is how the Sunday Sabbath came into the church in the first place, and so too the many variations, like NCT with its’ Every Day / NO Day Sabbath, for those who meet on Sunday. Such confused and impossible doctrines do not come from Christ or the NT. They come from dark minds that are blind to truth.
Moreover, such false Sabbath doctrines will not last anyway. Why? Because Jesus has already placed a large amount of his NC Sabbath teaching into the Gospels, never to be changed, much less refused by his apostles. So there is too much information in the Gospels to ignore. At least for those who are honest about following Christ.
Those who ignore, marginalize, and refute what Jesus teaches in the Gospels about his Reformed, 7th day, Sabbath, are lost, lost, lost. They are not following the Good shepherd, but running away from him. This goes for all that embrace NCT, or the Sunday Sabbath, or what the SDA’s teach.
Bob 2 said: Paul's commission as Paul relays it in Acts 26:16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.
Tom replied: There is only one Jesus. He teaches the same Gospel, with the same NC Sabbath to all. Jesus did not teach Paul any doctrine that was different from what is found in all four Gospels. So forget this nonsense that pits Jesus against Paul. Paul understood and embraced the NC Sabbath of Christ.
Bob 2 said: As you talk with Tom, as I have over time, I realize he pits Paul against Jesus.
Tom replied: Nonsense. It is those that think Jesus teaches new doctrines to people after he left earth that cause problems. Thereby opening the door to any kind of doctrine, including this absurd Every Day/ No Day Sabbath, which Bob is so obsessed.
Paul supports the NC Sabbath of Christ, while he says nothing to support the Every Day / No Day Sabbath of NCT, much less Sunday or the SDA Sabbath of the OC.
We are to follow Christ, not Paul. Paul can give no one Eternal Life. Only Jesus can do this. Thus, we must be certain that we are following the genuine Christ, who is supported 100% by the genuine apostle Paul
Bob 2 said: Christ never gave the impression that he would retain a mandated worship day, and require it to be kept for salvation, which is what Tom Norris, Ted Wilson teach that will get them in trouble.
Tom replied: First, Christ clearly and repeatedly teaches an active and reformed 7th day Sabbath for the church. This cannot be denied because it is self-evident in the Gospels through Jesus’ teaching, debate, and example.
Second, Jesus requires that we have faith in him and his Gospel teachings to be saved, which includes what he teaches about the Sabbath. Those who accept he is the Christ, and yet refuse to believe his Gospel teachings are lost. This would include what he teaches about the 7th day.
Third, any that refuse to listen to Christ about the Sabbath, much less refute him, will be lost. This is what Jesus teaches. Don’t shoot the messenger.
Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Fourth: The SDA’s do indeed teach that the OC Sabbath must be kept or one will be lost. But this is all wrong. They have the wrong Sabbath doctrine and the wrong view of the Gospel. A false Gospel always equals a false view of the Sabbath. Having the right day, the 7th, is not enough.
Fifth: Tom Norris does not teach what the SDA’s teach about either the Gospel or the Sabbath. So why did you say that? While Ted Wilson’s views are being shown to be utter nonsense and false doctrine, not so with what Tom Norris and Dr. Ford have promoted.
Today, the SDA’s teach a false and worthless Gospel. As a result, they are in deep trouble, with millions and millions of members running out the door.
Not so with Adventist Reform. Many are pleasantly surprised and pleased that this new path that has emerged for the Advent Movement.
Bob 2 said: Notice what Hank Handegraaff said about an SDA caller telling Hank he had the Mark of the Beast. I posted it here:
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1199
It was Hank's predecessor that had declared the SDAs a cult, and Hank removed that label, and how do we reward him, by confirming, maybe, Walter Martin was right.
Tom replied: Many are very confused about the doctrine of the Sabbath and this author is no exception. While it is true to state “The early Christian church changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.” What does this mean?
Such a point of church history is only that. History. However, history is not to be confused with the teachings of Christ, which are fundamental to all church doctrine.
In other words, the doctrinal errors made in church history do not trump what Jesus teaches in the Gospels. If Jesus did not teach a change in the Sabbath to Sunday, (and he did not), then it does not count, nor is it true, Gospel doctrine. Yes, it is true history, but not true Gospel doctrine.
Hank H said: “This is because God gives the early church a new pattern, the operative word being pattern, because Christ rose on the first day of the week and that’s what we’re celebrating.”
Tom said: Today, most theologians and Bible experts are promoting nothing but myth, tradition, and false doctrine. I wish I could say that the SDA’s are doing better, but they also promote one false doctrine after another. Sad.
HH supports Sunday and defends it. He also seems to embrace the additional double-talk called NCT. Which is no doubt why Bob has pushed him forward. But error is error regardless where it comes from.
So Bob, I understand why you like these confused Pharisees, they speak the same double-talk as you. Understand that such confused Sabbath doctrines do not have the support of Jesus or the NT. They are false.
Here is more confusion:
Hank H said: “You can worship on Saturday or on Sunday. The point is not the day. The point is what you are remembering and that Jesus fulfills all the types and shadows.”
Tom said: The longer the church goes on, the more false doctrine is invented. The last church is the worst of all 7 church periods, which explains why the Sabbath doctrine is developing into a pot luck of different doctrines, all of which can be mixed and matched, based on whatever. There is no longer a definitive, credible, or specific Sabbath doctrine in the church. This is wrong.
Hank H continues: “Therefore, the pattern changes and we worship collectively in honor and remembrance of the resurrection. It’s not sin to worship on Saturday. If you want to worship on Sunday, I won’t tell you you’ve taken the mark of the beast.”
Tom replied: Wow! Even the 7th day is acceptable for Sabbath worship for Sunday keepers. Both Sunday or Saturday is fine so long as no one gets too particular or pushy on the point. Who knew the Gospel was so accepting about doctrine?
Hank H continues: “The point is that you recognize that Jesus is the substance that fulfills the shadow and that apex of Christianity is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Through the resurrection, Jesus demonstrates that He doesn’t stand in a line of peers, but that He is the Messiah, the fulfillment of all that came before.”
Tom said: So long as we claim to follow Jesus, it does not seem to matter which Jesus we follow. Any Jesus will seem to do. So long as we embrace the doctrine of the resurrection, the doctrine of the Sabbath does not matter.
Today, the genuine doctrine of the NC Sabbath is virtually unknown, much less understood. In its place stands any number of false, illogical, and worthless views that do not conform to what Jesus teaches in the Gospels.
No wonder the PAJ is so hard on the last church? They are all following a Christ of their own imagination. Hint! The genuine Christ is the one with the active and free 7th day Gospel Sabbath. All others are false and worthless.
It is time for the Adventists, who were hot on the trail of the genuine Gospel Sabbath, to wake from their stupid slumber and go forward to understand and promote the final Message to a Judgment bound world. Gospel Eschatology is not going to wait for the SDA’s or anyone else.
There is only one Gospel and one doctrine of the NC Sabbath. There is only one church and not many.
It is time for those who seek Gospel Truth to find it and move forward.
Mark 4:9 And He was saying, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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Tom said:
This idea that Jesus was teaching an improved version of the OC Sabbath is absurd and impossible. No. No. He was teaching the 7th day Gospel Sabbath for the church, where work was allowed without guilt.
Jesus returned the Sabbath to a principled law, before fulfilling it in his flesh. Col 2: 16-17. The only thing Christ was doing until he died was clearing it of manmade rules, and minutia. He and His Father have always been working to work out a plan of salvation, but that is not a new Reformed Sabbath. At His death, His blood was forgiveness in deed for the believing Christian, not Reforming the Sabbath. Tom to suggest that one must keep your reformed Sabbath, (you have not shown where Des Ford believes this) is to preach another Gospel, one that puts the Sabbath before the Savior that fulfilled it and gave "Rest for the soul", forgiveness of sin. It is a mystery why God and Jesus chose blood and this "gory" a manner to show man what it is to be forgiven, but they did, and it is not a new Sabbath to "work" on, but "Today" being able to be at Rest by being in the correct relationship with God.
You ignore obvious direction of the Holy Spirit in
Tom, time to remove the veil of your man made doctrine and behold the beauty of a Savior that brings Peace and Rest.
Eph 2: 11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.14 For he himself is our peace [not the Sabbath], who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, [circumcision and the Sabbath]15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
How can you not see that a holy day can be the symbol of our Savior. It even speaks of the "engraved tablets:
2 Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
Last edited by bob_2 (11-30-13 12:54 am)
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Tom, if you put the whole conclusion of Hank Hanagraaf together as I did, you get a quite different message than you give about what he said:
You can worship on Saturday or on Sunday. The point is not the day. The point is what you are remembering and that Jesus fulfills all the types and shadows. Therefore, the pattern changes and we worship collectively in honor and remembrance of the resurrection. It’s not sin to worship on Saturday. If you want to worship on Sunday, I won’t tell you you’ve taken the mark of the beast. The point is that you recognize that Jesus is the substance that fulfills the shadow and that apex of Christianity is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Through the resurrection, Jesus demonstrates that He doesn’t stand in a line of peers, but that He is the Messiah, the fulfillment of all that came before.
http://www.equip.org/audio/various-ques … e-sabbath/
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Tom said: This idea that Jesus was teaching an improved version of the OC Sabbath is absurd and impossible. No. No. He was teaching the 7th day Gospel Sabbath for the church, where work was allowed without guilt.
Bob 2 refuted this point and said: Jesus returned the Sabbath to a principled law, before fulfilling it in his flesh.
Tom said: What does this double-talk mean? Did Jesus return the Sabbath to the days of Moses, when people were put to death for Sabbath breaking? What does the term “principled law” even mean? Nothing. Stop making things up.
Second, nowhere in the Bible does anyone teach that Jesus “fulfilled” the Sabbath in his flesh. So again, stop making things up. Such myth and error is for those with an evil agenda, too uneducated about the scriptures to know what they are saying. So they follow the blind and pretend they are both seeing very well.
Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
Bob 2 said: Col 2: 16-17. The only thing Christ was doing until he died was clearing it of manmade rules, and minutia.
Tom said: The OC rules were made by God, not man. They were very substantial and all encompassing, except for the Levites. They had special privileges, including being able to work on the 7th day without guilt or sin. So you are wrong once again.
Jesus came to clear away the OC and bring in the NC. The Gospel was not about removing “minutia” and correcting some bad rules. How can you think this way? It is clear you do not understand the Gospel, nor the work of Christ for mankind. Sad.
Bob 2 said: He and His Father have always been working to work out a plan of salvation, but that is not a new Reformed Sabbath.
Tom said: Your opinion is not wanted or needed. What Jesus teaches is what his followers must embrace. Denial is useless. Jesus clearly teaches an active and reformed 7th day Sabbath over and over and over. Any who deny this, or anything else he teaches, is lost, lost, lost. (This means you Bob).
Bob said: At His death, His blood was forgiveness in deed for the believing Christian, not Reforming the Sabbath.
Tom said: You poor confused man. You don’t even know what you are saying.
Pay attention; Jesus was sent to the cross because the Jews hated his Gospel, along with his shocking NC Sabbath. Jesus did indeed REFORM Judaism by bringing in the NC, which includes his active and reformed doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. To deny this is to deny the Gospel Story and refute the Gospel. (Which is what you do best).
Bob 2 said: Tom to suggest that one must keep your reformed Sabbath, (you have not shown where Des Ford believes this) is to preach another Gospel, one that puts the Sabbath before the Savior that fulfilled it and gave "Rest for the soul", forgiveness of sin.
Tom replied: It is Jesus who teaches we must follow him for Eternal Life. How could you miss this point? Have you even read the Gospels? If so, you must be reading in the dark, because you have missed so much from Christ that you don’t know what you are talking about. You don’t understand what he teaches, nor do you follow him.
Pay attention: Jesus declared himself to be in charge of the Sabbath doctrine, even as he teaches a working and active 7th day, where it is no longer sinful to work. Such a Gospel view allowed the Gentiles to join the church, even as it pushed away many unbelieving, legalistic Jews who embraced the Law over Christ.
Moreover, at no time does Jesus ever teach that he is the fulfillment of the Sabbath. The record is clear on this point. So why are you trying to put false words in the mouth of Jesus? Why are you trying to change the Gospel Record? Why are the SDA’s? No doubt they taught you how to blaspheme, and you have proven to be a good student. Too bad that you can’t learn from Christ.
Bob, you need to stop fighting Christ and stop pretending that he teaches a “fulfilled Sabbath,” which supposedly abolishes the weekly Sabbath, and turns it into an Every Day spiritual experience of “soul rest.” This No Day / Every Day mythical Sabbath is garbage. There is no such doctrine in the Bible, much less in the Gospels.
As for Dr. Ford, he stands tall and firm for the Gospel and the 7th day Sabbath of Christ. He has never refuted the 7th day as the correct day for the NC Sabbath. Even after the SDA’s slandered and exiled him as a heretic, he still held firm to Gospel truth. How can you not know this?
Bob 2 said: It is a mystery why God and Jesus chose blood and this "gory" a manner to show man what it is to be forgiven, but they did, and it is not a new Sabbath to "work" on, but "Today" being able to be at Rest by being in the correct relationship with God.
Tom said: You foolish man. The great mystery is that the Jews were going to allow the Gentiles to enter the Kingdom of God. No one saw that coming, especially not the Jews.
Eph. 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
Eph. 3:5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
Eph. 3:6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
As part of the NC, Jesus teaches a very different doctrine of the Sabbath to all, one that allowed the Gentiles to join the church and so they did. In droves.
Bob 2 said: You ignore obvious direction of the Holy Spirit in
Tom, time to remove the veil of your man made doctrine and behold the beauty of a Savior that brings Peace and Rest.
Tom said: The HS cannot teach any new doctrine that was not first taught by Christ. So you need to stop trying to pretend that new doctrine can come into the church, after Christ, by others. This error is also used as an excuse for the SDA’s to teach the IJ. They know Christ never taught this, so they claim the HS would teach it to others, like Ellen White. Thus, a false hermeneutic establishes false doctrine.
The SDA’s have trained you well. Which is why you are so confused and wrong about most everything, especially the Sabbath. You have a false and worthless Gospel, just like the SDA’s who brainwashed you for so much of your life.
Bob 2 quoted: Eph 2: 11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace [not the Sabbath], who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, [circumcision and the Sabbath]
15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Tom said: For those that believe, Jesus is our Gospel peace and salvation. But guess what? Jesus is not a 24-hour day. He is not the Sabbath, nor did he ever teach he was going to replaces the Sabbath with a 7 day doctrine of soul rest, much less fulfill it.
Nor does this passage in any way make the point you are tying to make. If you want to learn the Gospel Sabbath, you must go to Jesus in the Gospels. If you refuse to do this, then you are not a Christian, nor are you saved in the slightest. You are anti-Christ. Full of error and blasphemy.
Bob 2 said: How can you not see that a holy day can be the symbol of our Savior. It even speaks of the "engraved tablets:
Tom said: All doctrine must come from the scriptures. The Sabbath was NEVER a symbol of the Messiah. It was a symbol of Creation by the Jewish God, which later became codified into the 4th Commandment. Jesus is not the law, nor is law a symbol of Christ, Faith, or the Gospel. Law is against the Gospel, not symbolic of it.
Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”
You need to stop posting so much and go to school and learn some basic Protestant theology. You are a rank amateur, so wrong and confused that you are fighting Christ at every turn. This is typical of most SDA’s, even the former ones. Sad.
Bob 2 said: Tom, if you put the whole conclusion of Hank Hanagraaf together as I did, you get a quite different message than you give about what he said:
Tom replied: The “whole conclusion” of what he said amounts to worthless double-talk and error. He supports and defends the Sunday Sabbath, even as he also embraces the error of NCT, which does not even fit with his view of Sunday, which he claims the church was correct to embrace. Then he says Saturday is also OK.
Bottom line: HH is just one of many religious blowhards that are unable to define the genuine Sabbath doctrine correctly because they don’t understand the Gospel correctly. Pathetic. Stop following the blind and the confused. They will not lead you to Christ or Eternal Life.
Bob, I suggest that you stay in your NCT section and fight against Adventist Reform from those confused threads. No need to keep repeating your same old tired errors over here, as if they will one day become truth. NCT has been disproven for all to see and there is nothing anyone can do to make such false doctrine true. No doubt you will still try. But it is futile.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Offline
Subject: Tithe, Food & Sabbath Doctrines
Tom Norris, for New Covenant Adventism;
Carlton McDonald, in defense of the Old Covenant, SDA Sabbath.
See:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … points.htm
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Carlton asked: Where were the rules against working on Sabbath removed?
Tom said: Jesus removed the rules against working on the Sabbath during his Gospel ministry, over and over so as to not be missed. He even taught that God told him to do this.
THIS was the major reason why the Jews became so upset and angry with Jesus, sending him to the cross.
John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
In fact, had Jesus not changed the doctrine of the Sabbath, the Gentiles could not, and would not, have joined the church in such large numbers. But of course neither the Jews nor his disciples really understood all this when Jesus was on earth, even though he taught them this point.
Only later, after some dramatic prodding from Heaven, would the church leaders comprehend, and let the Gentiles into the church. Which led to a great debate about how the Gentiles were to relate to the OC Law of the Jews.
Tom also said: Carlton, a defender of the SDA Sabbath, is having a hard time with the Gospel Sabbath. This is because the doctrine of the Sabbath has been presented in a certain, incorrect manner for generations.
All must be careful not to let any tradition determine doctrine. This rule applies to SDA’s as well as to all others. This was the fatal mistake of the Jews, and of the entire Laodicean Church today.
Carlton said: I don't see how this quotation (John 5:17) indicates Jesus changed the Sabbath, all he said was:
John 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
Do you call that work? The Pharisees did, but it wasn't a right assessment of what was done. It was not, as the commandment stated, "labor" or "work".
Tom replied: In 1st century Judaism, what Jesus was doing was viewed as “work” in the OC. Why? Because it was activity that was prohibited on the 7th day by the Jews. No one should think otherwise, much less judge the situation by our 21st century, Gentile standards.
We must not view the Gospel Story from our modern perspective, or think, as many do, that Jesus was dealing with medical emergencies. He was not. All his Sabbath healings were associated with those who had long time health problems. There was not one emergency among any of these 7th day healings.
This is an important point to understand, one that most all today overlook.
We must first understand the Gospel Story from the Old Covenant/Jewish point of view. Otherwise it will not make sense. This is why context is so important. The Gospel is an ancient doctrine, it is neither modern nor intuitive.
Let all understand that those who were healers or doctors, had no permission from God or Moses to break the law by working their trade on the 7th day. Anyone who tried such a stunt, would have been stoned to death, just like the person that gathered sticks to make a fire on the Sabbath.
Ex. 31:15 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.
Those today that think otherwise are wrong. Healers were not Levites and thus they had no special privileges to break the Sabbath, which demanded “complete rest” on the 7th day from all but the Levites. Jesus was not a Levite.
Luke 13:14 But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, “There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day.”
I repeat: the OC did not allow what Jesus was doing or teaching, which included telling the healed man to walk through the town carrying his bed. Such a public display of furniture moving was also forbidden work, an affront to the Sabbath. But it was necessary in order for Christ to introduce the NC Sabbath.
So the Pharisees had a good point of law; No healing was allowed, much less moving furniture in public for the whole town to see. But Jesus was not here to defend or promote the OC. He came to replace it with the NC.
Even though Jesus knew the OC rules, he stood unmoved and defended his new view of the Sabbath, even in the face of death.
Of course there are many other passages about the Sabbath that need to be studied in the Gospels. Taken together, they form a clear picture of what Jesus is teaching and what he is not. Few seem to have read this material.
Carlton said: Jesus spends the rest of the chapter establishing his ministry AND that of Moses, not contradicting him:
John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Tom said: Wrong. Jesus did not come to “establish” the ministry or the OC laws of Moses. He came to abolish the OC and replace it with something much better. So you have a very wrong view of things.
Moses predicted that the Messiah would come to the Jews in order to establish the New Covenant. He did not teach that the Christ would never contradict the Old Covenant as you claim. You are making things up to defend false doctrine.
Deut. 18:15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.
Deut. 18:16 “This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.’
Deut. 18:17 “The LORD said to me, ‘They have spoken well.
Deut. 18:18 ‘I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
Moses tells the Jews that God will send another Jew to save them, and they must listen to what he says, because he will be speaking for God. THIS is what Jesus is talking about in this passage. This is also what he says about his reformed and active Sabbath.
Little did the Jews know how different the teachings of the Messiah would be from Moses. But nonetheless, Moses told them that they must listen when he does arrive. But they would not.
When the Messiah came, the Jews pitted him against Moses, declaring that they liked the OC much better then Jesus’ NC, which included a different doctrine of the Priesthood, Temple, and the Sabbath Law.
Listen to the reaction of the Jews to Jesus Sabbath healings, which were forbidden under the OC:
John 9:28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses.
John 9:29 “We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where He is from.”
Regardless of the many doubters, there were some who recognized Jesus as the Messiah that Moses spoke about:
John 1:45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote — Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
Jesus’ NC theology was very different from Moses OC doctrines. Thus Jesus did contradict many things that were taught by Moses. Those who think otherwise, have a serious misunderstanding of the Gospel Story.
For example, when the Jews brought a sinner to Jesus, they wanted him to follow the Law of Moses and have her stoned to death. THIS is what the OC demanded of this situation, and Jesus did not deny this theological fact.
John 8:3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,
John 8:4 they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.
John 8:5 “Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?”
Here Jesus contradicts Moses and goes in another direction that was unexpected and stunning to the Jews. He was going to show mercy to sinners. That was not part of the law.
Jesus REFUSED to follow the Law of Moses on this point and many others, like the Sabbath, which also called for the death penalty for Sabbath breaking. So your point is proven wrong for all to see.
While the NC still deals with sin, it does so in a very different way from OC law. Thus we see Jesus offering forgiveness and mercy to a guilty sinner, apart from Temple sacrifices. This was very different from what the OC Jewish minds expected.
John 8:10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?”
John 8:11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.”
The OC Law of Moses can only offer guilt and condemnation, but the NC does the opposite. Mercy, pardon, and encouragement not to sin.
Of course the Jews were stunned. Jesus NC theology is very different from Moses OC teachings. They could not believe there could be another view of the Sabbath. It was all OC or nothing for them.
Today, the OC minded SDA’s think the same way. They are also stunned to think there could be another doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. So they pretend they have all the truth, when they have error and condemnation.
The Gentiles:
Tom said: The NC Sabbath explains why the first Gentile converts, who were Roman soldiers and slaves, could join the church without any Sabbath issues. All these Gentiles “worked” on the 7th day, and they were not going to start following OC Judaism on this point or any other, like circumcision, or the Passover.
Had the OC Sabbath still been forced on the Gentiles, it would have been sinful for any slave or soldier to work on the 7th day. From and SDA perspective, they would have had to scream for their “religious rights” and demand Saturday off, and threaten to sue their Roman employers if denied. (Which would be futile and fatal).
Guess what? The SDA view of the Sabbath was not apostolic doctrine. What the Adventists teach about the Sabbath and many other things, is flat out absurd, false, and very wrong.
The Gentiles were not taught the OC Sabbath of the Jews. Nor where there any Sabbath issues about the 4th Commandment, because there was no such OC Sabbath doctrine in the church as the incompetent SDA’s teach. (Nor were there any tithing or food laws).
If the OC Sabbath was binding on the church, the Gentiles would be forced to dramatically change their lifestyles before following Christ; those who were Roman Soldiers would have to quit, and the slaves would have to become free, which was not going to happen. (They too had to work on the 7th day. They were never going to get off for religious reasons as people do today.)
But guess what? They did not have to ask for Sabbath off because the NC Sabbath allows for all manner of work on the 7th day. The OC resting Sabbath was REMOVED and changed, by Christ, into an active NC doctrine, where it was no longer sinful to work on the 7th day Sabbath.
(Note that Christ did not remove the 7th day Sabbath as many claim, but changed it from an OC doctrine into a NC doctrine, which is very different from abolishing it).
The SDA’s have horribly misunderstood the doctrine of the Sabbath, along with the rest of the church. Every church and denomination has a false view of the Sabbath, not just the SDA’s, even though they did discover the right day. (The Jews also had the right day, and it did them no good.)
However, because the SDA’s claim to be the Sabbath Experts, and because they have built an empire, based on teaching all others the correct Sabbath, they are the most guilty. They need to repent for their arrogance and hubris, as well as for their stupendous error about the Sabbath, tithe, and the Gospel.
Before the SDA’s can instruct anyone, they need to first understand the Gospel, which at this point, they are not even close. And neither is their “not ready for prime time” doctrine of the Sabbath.
Luke 6:42 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.
Carlton's replied: I have no doubt that slaves and soldiers were among the early converts, I do doubt the first Gentile converts were entirely slaves and soldiers.
Tom said: First, this is not a discussion about our opinions. When a critical point is made about the Gentiles and the church, I can assure you that it is based on the NT.
The fact that you are not aware of this NT information underscores not only a serious lack of Gospel knowledge, but also explains why you are having such a hard time accepting the NC Sabbath of Christ.
It is only the biblical evidence that determines correct doctrine, not our opinions, assumptions, or flat out denials. I am sure we can agree on this.
However, this point about the Gentiles is very important. Misunderstand it, and the Gospel will also become confused, and so too the NC Sabbath of Christ.
So you need to admit you were wrong and pay careful attention to what the NT says about how the Gentiles came into the church. Do not listen to the SDA’s, they do not know what they are talking about.
The NT is clear about the identity, makeup, and theology of the first Gentile Christians. So we don’t have to guess. We even know some of their names as well as their station in life. It is forever part of the Gospel Story, as is the resulting Galatian debate about how the Law relates to these Gentile believers.
Here is the name and occupation of the first Gentile convert:
Acts 10:1 Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,
Acts 10 tells the story of how this Gentile was approached by God, via a vision from an angel, and told to seek out the Jew named Peter.
At the same time, Peter had a vision that prepared him to meet these Gentiles and bring them into the church.
Acts 10:22 They said, “Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you.”
Read this long chapter about how the first Gentiles came into the church. And the next chapter that also covers the same story.
This could not have happened if the Gentiles had to keep the OC Sabbath or become circumcised.
The NC is very different from the OC, and the Gospel Sabbath is the most public way to show this difference.
Acts 10:46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
Acts 10:47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”
Acts 10:48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
Acts 11:1 Now the apostles and the brethren who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.
Note that the Gentiles were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, not in the name of Moses. They were not joining OC Judaism, of which they were well acquainted, but the brand new, NC Church of Christ, which included Jesus’ active and reformed 7th day Sabbath, where all could work and not be guilty of sin.
This story is so important that it continues in chapter 11 with the Jewish Christians dealing with this new situation.
Until this time, the Jewish Christians only taught the Gospel to other Jews. They would not speak to, or associate with the Gentiles. Now this was going to change, which sets the scene for a great backlash against the Gentiles, which the book of Galatians addresses.
Acts 11:19 So then those who were scattered because of the persecution that occurred in connection with Stephen made their way to Phoenicia and Cyprus and Antioch, speaking the word to no one except to Jews alone.
Acts 11:20 But there were some of them, men of Cyprus and Cyrene, who came to Antioch and began speaking to the Greeks also, preaching the Lord Jesus.
Acts 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a large number who believed turned to the Lord.
Acts 11:22 The news about them reached the ears of the church at Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas off to Antioch.
Carlton said: The scripture record is silent regarding if or how they related to the Ten Commandments.
Tom replied: Wrong. The NT is not silent about anything important. This issue about how the Moral and Ceremonial laws related to the Jewish and Gentile Christians is critically important and thus we can be sure this information has not been excluded from the NT, as you think.
Acts 11:26 and when he had found Paul, he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.
Antioch became the center of the growing Gentile church. This explains why the dispute over the law erupted here.
Acts 14:26 From there they sailed to Antioch, from which they had been commended to the grace of God for the work that they had accomplished.
Acts 14:27 When they had arrived and gathered the church together, they began to report all things that God had done with them and how He had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles.
Acts 14:28 And they spent a long time with the disciples.
Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
Acts 15:2 And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.
In fact, there is an entire NT book devoted to this problem. It is called Galatians. Most SDA’s have no idea what this book is really saying. If they did, they would run from their OC view of the Sabbath in tears, begging God for forgiveness.
So the NT is not silent about 1) who the first Gentiles were, or 2) how they related to the Law, or 3) how the Judaizers tried to force them into OC legalism. Nor could it ever be silent about such a critical issue where there was so much public division and debate.
Gal. 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.
Gal. 2:13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.
More to the point; Paul makes it clear how all Christians are to relate to the Law. Here is what he says:
Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
Gal. 2:15 “We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;
Gal. 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
The 10 Commandments were temporary, binding only under the Old Covenant. Those in the NC are not under the Moral or Ceremonial Laws of Moses. Rather, they are under a NC paradigm of faith in Christ. What he teaches about faith and behavior is what Christians must follow. Not the OC law.
Gal. 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
In the NC, there is no Levites or tithe. No OC Sabbath keeping, or even Jewish food laws. All these OC things were TEMPORARY, replaced with an improved and more mature religious model called the Gospel.
Gal. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
The SDA’s have yet to fully understand that they live under a legalistic “yoke of slavery.” (Although many millions do understand this, and have left the church). Which is why the Adventists tithe, and embrace OC Sabbath keeping where work is sinful and wrong, and eat only certain foods, etc.
The SDA’s love the OC, where they are trapped under the Law for all to see. They need to repent for both 1888 and Glacier View and only embrace the NC Gospel, including the correct NC Sabbath doctrine of the 7th day, of which they have no clue.
Carlton said: It would therefore be helpful if we confine ourselves to the scripture record and not inappropriate speculation and conjecture.
Tom said: Ha! What you thought was “speculation and conjecture” has turned out to be rock solid truth. How could you miss it?
Answer: The SDA’s, like any cult, focuses on what they like in the Bible. Thus they pick and choose, ignoring whatever condemns them, which is lot.
While the Adventists take pride in the delusion that they know the Bible better than all others, such an arrogant view is absurd and easily debunked. Millions have found out that the SDA’s are not honest with the Bible, nor are they even trying to follow Protestant Hermeneutics.
Few SDA’s know the Bible. While many fancy themselves as experts, mainly because they did not embrace the error of Sunday keeping, most are cultic fools. They only know this ludicrous proof texting hermeneutic that is part of all SDA brains washing method.
The SDA’s today have no idea how to even read the Bible honestly or correctly, and this goes double for the book of Galatians. They will give full weight to any OC passage, thinking it of equal value to anything in the NC. Thus they have confused the Two Covenants, blending them together when they must forever be kept separate and apart.
Carlton, you need to admit that you were very wrong to think there was no official record of the Gentiles coming into the church. Acts 10 and 11 prove otherwise.
Moreover, you were also wrong to claim the NT is silent about how the Law related to the Gentiles. In addition to Acts, the entire book of Galatians is devoted to this topic.
How could you miss all this?
Answer: Because the SDA’s ignore the book of Galatians as if it were the plague. They have no idea how the Gentiles came into the church, because to understand this point, is to prove the SDA’s do not understand or follow the Gospel.
So Carlton, you are flat out wrong and so too the SDA’s. Can you admit this fact?
Not only were you wrong, but also it shows that you have overlooked some very important points of scripture that underscores and supports the NC Sabbath of Christ.
Those who run from the scriptures, denying what they don’t like, do so in order to defend false doctrine. This is not profitable in the search for Gospel Truth. It is fatal.
The NC Sabbath
Tom said: In the NC, the Sabbath is not for rest, but for activity and work. While it is still the correct day for the church to meet in Gospel fellowship and praise to God, there are no rules against work, as in OC Judaism. This dramatic change, along with some others, allowed the Gentiles to join the church.
Those so foolish today, like the SDA’s, that think the OC Sabbath is binding on the church, have fallen from grace. They do not understand the Gospel correctly, nor do they have Eternal Life. They are in serious danger, even though they assume to have found salvation in Christ. They are wrong. They have embraced a false Christ, with an incorrect doctrine of the Sabbath.
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Carlton's response: There is no texts that make the statement that Sabbath is for work and rest.
Tom said: After your last incorrect claims about there being no texts about the Gentiles joining the church, and no record of how they dealt with the Law, you need to be more cautious. Your track record in this discussion is not very good.
For the record, there are plenty of OC texts that show the Sabbath is for rest only. NO work allowed. (Levites excepted). So the OC had two different doctrines of the Sabbath, which few comprehend. One that allowed work for the Priests, and one that did not for the rest of the people.
However, there are no NC texts that show it wrong to work on the Sabbath. Nor are there any passages about Sabbath breaking in the apostolic church. Why? Because there was no OC Sabbath law to break, because the church is not under the Law of Moses, even though the silly Jews, err, I mean SDA’s think otherwise.
In fact, Jesus teaches that the 7th day is for activity and work, NOT REST. Over and over he made this point that enraged the Jews.
When studying the Sabbath, all must understand that there is a big difference between the OC and NC doctrines of the 7th day Sabbath. They are not the same doctrine as the silly SDA’s assume.
The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242
SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836
Carlton said: Even the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath doesn't say that we can work.
Tom said: Correct. This passage, by itself, does not explain the NC Sabbath. We must look at all of Jesus’ teachings about the 7th day to fully understand what he means.
Do not take any one passage from Christ and think that is the end of the matter, much less run to Paul, as if he were the Lord of the Sabbath and ask him for instruction. All must go to Christ, the head theologian of the church, not only for Eternal Life, but also to understand the doctrine of the Sabbath.
Carlton said: Jesus at no point contradicted Moses in his ministry.
Tom said: Wrong. Jesus broke the OC many times and in many ways. Even his birth was against the Law.
More to the point, Jesus refutes what Moses teaches about the Priesthood and the 4th Commandment, just to name a few. Do you think Jesus taught circumcision? No he did not. So here is another doctrine where Moses and Jesus are teaching very different doctrines. Moses and Jesus had mutually exclusive theology.
THIS is why the Jews were so angry. Jesus was not pretending to make minor changes in the OC. No. He was promoting the NC, and “abolishing” the OC in the process. Such a paradigm shift caught the Jews unawares.
The same thing will happen today. The genuine Gospel, which includes the reformed and active 7th day NC Sabbath, will shock and divide the last church. Those in Laodicea are no more prepared to hear the NC than were the 1st century Jews. The SDA’s are speechless.
Carlton said: He builds on Moses and makes things more spiritual, e.g. Thou shalt do no murder he expanded not to kill if you want - but if you hate your brother you have committed murder in your heart.
Tom replied: While the OC is the context and background for the NC, they are not the same and in fact, are against one another.
Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”
While the SDA’s view the NC as if it were equal with the OC, this is very wrong. Those who make this “Galatian” error are called Judaizers. And so the SDA’s are. Unless they repent, they will continue to self-destruct in arrogance and rebellion against God and Christ.
Carlton said: The Sabbath would have been expanded in a similar way: You have heard it said remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy? But I say unto you whosoever gets a Gentile to work for him on Sabbath has transgressed the Sabbath law.
Tom replied: Wrong! While this sounds correct, it is not. Why? Because Jesus did not teach such a point about the Sabbath.
He could have. Did he forget? Did Christ make a mistake for not viewing the 4th Commandment like murder and adultery?
No. Jesus knew what he was teaching about the Sabbath and why. He did not forget anything, nor do we have any standing to try and correct Christ, as if he were in error.
The 4th Commandment is special and Jesus treated it as such. He never taught that those who think about working on the Sabbath are guilty of sin. In fact, he taught the OPPOSITE. Working on the 7th day is no longer a sin for those who follow Christ.
The Gospel is not intuitive, but rather, very counter-intuitive. Which is why so many have it wrong. While the OC makes perfect sense to the human mind, not so the NC. Which is why the OC resting Sabbath seems correct, and the working NC version seems strange and wrong.
Carlton said: You may not see it my way. That is your prerogative, but at least provide scriptures for your belief.
Tom said: The point in this discussion is to understand what Christ, and the apostolic church, teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. It is not about opinions or apologetics, but about understanding the written teachings of Christ.
Contrary to your claim, I have provided scores of scripture to explain and promote the Gospel Sabbath, including some passages where the first Gentiles came into the church. You thought there was no such record in the scriptures. But there it was, even the very name of the first Gentile Christian, along with his occupation.
Acts 11:17 “Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”
Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”
Not only did you not know about this important information, this omission has led you away from a correct understanding of the NC Sabbath. And away from trying to understand how the Gentiles could come into the church and deal with the Sabbath.
Moreover, this long passage in Acts also speaks to the issue of clean and unclean foods. It also proves, as do many other texts from Jesus and Paul, that there are no unclean foods in the NC. Once again proving that the SDA’s are very wrong about many things.
Those who fail to understand the theological issues associated with the Gentiles joining the church, will also fail to understand the Gospel and the Sabbath correctly.
The book of Galatians must also be understood in order to understand the Gospel. This was the key book of the Reformation and so too for the SDA’s in their great Gospel debate in 1888. Too bad the Adventists failed to understand this book then, and now.
Carlton said: Your assessment that I am wrong, is your personal assessment. I have full backing of the scriptures, you have to fill in the gaps with thus saith Tom Norris - don't mix up the two.
Tom said: Your views, most of which represent SDA errors and brainwashing, are wrong. While this is my personal assessment, and that of many experts, it is based on what the NT teaches.
Moreover, millions and millions of former SDA’s have also come to this same conclusion, and have left the church. So the SDA’s need to stop pretending that they have no errors, and that the critics are not being honest or fair. No. It is the SDA’s that are full of error and double-talk, unable to make their case.
However, you are free to believe whatever myths you want. Most are comfortable with their religious errors and have no desire to learn more truth. They think they have enough, when in fact, they have almost none, even as they are enemies of Christ.
Luke 11:23 “He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters.
Carlton said: Your view may be popular but it is not supported so far as you have shown me so far with scripture.
Tom said: First off, my Sabbath view represents the position of Jesus. There is no such thing as a Tom Norris’ Sabbath.
Second, this new view, (which dates from the 1st century) is virtually unknown today, so it cannot be popular at this point. Few people outside our little online Adventist circle has ever heard about a reformed and active, 7th day Sabbath doctrine. It is so new that it has very little support, much less any official support.
Moreover, while the SDA leaders have been invited to debate the Gospel and the NC Sabbath online for all to see, they refuse. And for good reason. They know they don’t know what they are talking about. So they refuse to enter into a discussion where they will not only lose, but also be humiliated and branded as false teachers and enemies of the Gospel.
But the offer still stands.
Third: There are hundreds and hundreds of posts written by Tom Norris about the NC Sabbath. Many are full of passages and quotes from scripture. So once again, you are wrong.
Carlton said: You seem to like to be right, in that you constantly state SDAs "wrong".
Tom said: This is not a discussion about who is right or wrong, but about the search for Gospel Truth. If I am wrong, I want to know it. That is far better then being a fool and not knowing it. So whatever truth you have, please share it so that others can benefit.
For the record, I don’t wake up in the morning and try to be wrong, or do what is wrong. I hope you don’t either. So yes, I prefer being correct about important things as opposed to being an uneducated fool. So again, if you have truth, or if the SDA’s have truth, it needs to be preserved and protected. No one can have too much truth.
I was raised an SDA, and they taught me that the search for truth was the most important thing. They also taught they had all the truth, which we know is false.
The SDA’s do have some truth worth saving, and this must be separated from their legions of error. This can’t be done without first knowing what is correct.
Furthermore, the preaching and teaching of the Gospel cannot be done correctly without pointing out theological error and sin. This is what Jesus did over and over in the Gospels, and so too the early church.
Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God?
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?
John 18:23 Jesus answered him, “If I have spoken wrongly, testify of the wrong; but if rightly, why do you strike Me?”
The early church also made it plain that the Jews were wrong to have killed Christ. They were not timid about pointing out who was wrong and why.
Acts 7:52 “Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become;
Jesus’ theology deals with right and wrong, thus the church had to also deal with right and wrong. Even the leaders fell into false doctrine and thus error had to be pointed out inside the early church and corrected.
Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
There were two different and conflicting Gospels in the apostolic church. Many in the 1st century preached a false Gospel, just like today.
1Tim. 1:7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
At the end of time, all those who are “wrong” about the Gospel are doomed. So being wrong about theology is fatal.
Rev. 22:11 “Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”
The Gospel
Carlton said: If I were you I wouldn't worry about SDAs, just the scriptures - they are Truth.
Tom said: Theology does not exist in a vacuum. It has a distinct pedigree with roots that go deep into antiquity. Misunderstand the history of Gospel debate, and you will misunderstand the Gospel, which is what the SDA’s have done. They don’t even understand the Reformation correctly or the reformers correct view of Galatians. There is no excuse for such incompetence.
Today, the SDA’s have the correct context to best understand the Gospel and the genuine 7th day Sabbath. So too did the Jews. This is why Jesus only went to them first and not to the Gentiles, who had no OC context.
The SDA’s are the modern day Jews in the Church, complete with OC tithing, food laws, and the resting, legalistic, Sabbath of Moses. The final truth about the Gospel and the Sabbath will come from those in this law-based community, just as the Gospel also came from the OC Jews. And so it has.
Carlton said: By that measure I have yet to see how your approach is in harmony with the Scriptures - it is a private interpretation.
Tom said: Few SDA’s understand the scriptures enough to comprehend the Gospel. This is their problem, and so too the Jews, who also thought they were Bible experts when they were incompetent fools who misunderstood the point and purpose of their Messiah.
What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath in the four Gospels is no “private interpretation.” Why would you think that?
The active and reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ is part of the Gospel Record. A large part. What the SDA’s teach is also part of the same record. Except they have embraced the OC Sabbath of the Jews, the enemies of Christ, as well as tithing and Jewish food laws. This is all wrong.
Carlton said: Priestly work (i.e temple ministry) is not what the principle of the 4th commandment is concerned about.
Tom said: Correct. The 4th Commandment did not apply to the Levites. It was only applied to those who were NOT priests of God. Which was everyone but the Levites.
Regardless, the point of the Sabbath, for both people and Priests, in either the OC or the NC, is to remember the Creator. This was the point before the OC law existed, after it existed, and today, under the NC.
In the NC, Jesus teaches the Priesthood of all Believers. This doctrine is the theological basis for the reformed, NC Sabbath.
Just as the Levites were granted an EXEMPTION from the rules of the 4th Commandment, so too the Christian Priests, --which is everyone in the church. This is why there is no record of anyone being guilty of Sabbath breaking in the apostolic church. They were all free to work on the 7th day, unlike the OC Jews. (Which is why the Gentiles could join the church).
It is the CHANGE IN THE PRIESTHOOD that creates the NC Sabbath of Christ. Don’t get confused by the details of what the Levites did or did not do on the Sabbath. When the priesthood changed from OC to NC, so too did the law about the Sabbath. This is Gospel Truth.
Heb. 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
Here is some information about the Levites and their duties on the Sabbath. They were many thousands of them, which also included musicians and gatekeepers for security. The Temple was a large commercial operation where much work was required to keep it running. The resting Sabbath was NOT OBSERVED for practical reasons, and thus all the Levites were EXEMPT from the 4th Commandment.
“There were a great number of priests and Levites in the Temple at all times. According to 1 Chronicles 23:4-5, there were 24,000 priests and priests' assistants, 4,000 gatekeepers and 4,000 musicians. They were divided into 24 courses according to their assignment. When a course was on duty, all its members were bound to appear in the Temple. Therefore there were more than 1,300 Levites in the Temple at any given time, although not all of them were serving on the same day.”
The Service of the Priests and the Levites
http://www3.telus.net/public/kstam/en/t … ervice.htm
http://www.nigun.info/hamikdash.html
http://www.lttn.org/R5_Article3_LeviticalChoir.htm
http://philologos.org/__eb-ttms/temple07.htm
Carlton's response: Were OC Priests and Levites exempt from the prohibition against gathering sticks on Sabbath?
Tom said: Absolutely! They could also build fires and do all manner of butchering, cooking, cleaning, etc. etc., which they did without guilt or sin every Sabbath.
Carlton asked: Were they exempt from the six days shalt thou labour, build a wall, mend your clothes etc?
Tom replied: The Levites were EXEMPT from the law against work in the 4th Commandment. Period! They could repair their clothing, dig a ditch, or cook food on the 7th day, which we know they did. They could do all the things the rest of the Jews could not.
Jesus teaches THEY WERE EXEMPT FROM THE 4TH COMMANDMENT.
Carlton said: Of course not, their work was coordinating worship, preparing vessels, serving the people... It is that work that NC priests are exempt from, not factory or office work that is nothing to do with the worship and fellowship with God and His people.
Tom said: First off, remember how wrong you were about the Gentiles coming into the church? You were certain the NT did not record their names or discuss their issues about the law. But then you discovered you were wrong.
So what makes you think you are correct on this issue?
Just because the SDA’s have you convinced that it is sinful to work on the 7th day, - that does not make it true. It would only be true if this were what Jesus teaches. But this is what his enemies were teaching about the Sabbath, not Christ.
The Gospel was given to ancient people living in an ancient world. However, for those of us living today, the challenge is to correctly understand Jesus teachings so as to apply them to our modern culture. This has been very difficult, as evidenced by so many denominations and churches, all teaching different views.
While the Jews were an agrarian society, the Romans had developed a more modern world that better echoes our society today. They developed a complex and supplicated culture that boasted the worlds greatest road system, which allowed for the spread of the Gospel.
They also built high-rise apartments, shopping centers, and invented fire stations, Spas, and communications networks, etc. The Roman culture was very much like our own today, much more so than Judaism.. Thus they had legions working as sailors, soldiers, tradesmen, and slaves, 7 days a week in farms, mines, villas, factories, and in other areas of commerce and construction, etc.
How could all these Gentiles, including the many slaves, become Christians if the OC Sabbath was still binding?
They would all become great Sabbath breakers and sinners. Why? Because none of these people would ever get the Sabbath off, like the SDA’s teach today. So how could it ever work? It could not.
However, the NC Sabbath allowed for all manner of work on the 7th day Gospel Sabbath. THIS is why a Roman soldier and his slaves could join the church without having a Sabbath problem. THIS is why the Gentiles could come into the church and have no Sabbath problem.
The SDA’s have the wrong Sabbath doctrine. Period! They have followed the OC Jews instead of Christ. They have followed Moses and not Christ.
Carlton said: I am not at all confused.
Tom said: You were obviously very confused and wrong about the Gentiles coming into the church, thinking there were no such passages that contained their names or issues in the NT. This shows you need to be more humble and teachable. This is the only way anyone can learn the Gospel.
Can you admit when you are wrong and repent? This is the first step to comprehending the Gospel correctly.
Carlton said: It is absolutely essential that we understand what work priests were allowed to do on Sabbath.
Tom said: Wrong. Here is what is essential: to believe in the NC Sabbath of Christ. We are not to study the Levites, but study Jesus, the high priest of God. What he says about the Sabbath is what matters.
The definition of the NC Sabbath does not rest on the work schedule, or teaching, of the Levites but only what Jesus teaches.
Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
Jesus says they broke the Sabbath every week and were innocent. That is not only true, but it is enough to understand the point. Jesus did not deny the Levites broke the law, but that they had special privileges to do so. Stop fighting against Christ.
Carlton said: If they were exempt from all prohibitions against work then you are right. If they were subject to some Sabbath prohibitions then you are wrong.
Tom said: The Levites were EXEMPT from the rules of the 4th Commandment. Period. This is a fact of history and theology and THIS is what Jesus also teaches. Why do you want to try and prove Christ wrong? Why are you fighting what is so clear?
Answer: Because you are trying to defend false, SDA doctrine. Big mistake. The SDA’s do not understand Judaism or the Gospel, much less the Reformation, or the NC doctrine of the Sabbath correctly. No one should follow anything they teach. They are great liars and blasphemers.
Carlton said: This is where you must really ask yourself what is truth?
Tom replied: This is where one must ask if they really understand the Gospel correctly? Anyone coming from the SDA’s does not.
Here is the real question: Who is serious about following Christ?
Those who choose to follow the SDA’s, or any other denomination today, are not following truth, but running away from it. Are you sure this is what you want to do?
Carlton said: Whether OC Priests had full license to do anything they wanted once they had finished their temple duty, or were they subject to the same laws as Israelites.
Tom replied: Again, we don’t need to know the details of how the Levites functioned on the Sabbath in order to understand the point Jesus was making. They did a lot of hard and dirty work on the 7th day that was forbidden of the ordinary Jew.
Everyone but the Levites had to obey the 4th Commandment and refrain from work. BUT NOT THE LEVITES. They had to work. No rest for them on the 7th day.
The early church understood that there had been a change in the Covenants. This was the mission of Christ to explain, teach, and bring in the NC. Thus there was a dramatic change in the Laws of Judaism; “Of necessity,” when the OC was replaced with the NC.
Heb. 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
Matt. 9:17 “Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved.”
This explains why the Sabbath law was changed from an OC to NC doctrine. Jesus, the High Priest of God, is greater than any OC law, or even the OC Temple; even as the original Sabbath doctrine, which pre-dated the OC law, will stand forever.
Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
Matt. 12:7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Here is a passage that shows all that believe in Christ to be Priests of God. The NC priests of God were exempt from the 4th Commandment.
1Pet. 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
To understand the NC Sabbath is to understand the Gospel. Few today understand either. The SDA’s, like the Jews they mimic, are blind, in the dark for all to see.
Carlton said: The spirit of the law is not go to church and then go to the factory, office or mall to work.
Tom said: Agreed. But guess what? The church is not the same as OC Judaism. Christians do not follow the “spirit of the law,” nor are they “under” the 10 Commandment law. Rather, they are under the “law of Christ,” aka, the “law of faith.”
Those who try to follow the Spirit of the Law, and seek to obey the 4th Commandment by not working on the 7th day, have fallen from grace. They have embraced a “yoke of slavery.”
Carlton's response: Praise the Lord you are not judging me.
Tom said: I am not here to judge anyone, but to teach the Gospel to those who want Eternal Life and rehabilitate the Advent Movement.
If you are wrong about the Gospel, it will become obvious as your own words, and attitude, will expose and condemn you for all to see. It is hard to hide what the heart is really like.
Luke 12:34 “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
If you treasure the law of Judaism over the Gospel, it will become obvious during this discussion and your words will condemn or exonerate you.
Matt. 12:35 “The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.
Matt. 12:36 “But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
Matt. 12:37 “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Rom. 14:10 For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
At this point, it is clear to me that you do not fully or correctly understand the Gospel. You need to keep studying and praying to find truth.
Carlton said: I emulate Christ - that is what a Christian is supposed to do.
Tom said: Wrong. It is the SDA’s that preach we should be like Christ, and if not, the IJ will determine that we are not “safe to save.”
Such rank perfectionism is not part of the Gospel, nor is this the primary message that Jesus came to earth to teach mankind. So this is not what a Christian is supposed to do. Sorry.
Salvation and Eternal life are given to those who have faith in the Gospel of Christ, which also includes what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. There is no salvation granted to anyone on the basis of their Sanctification and law keeping, or how much they love Christ or their fellow man, etc.
Faith in Christ, is a very different doctrine than trying to “emulate Christ” for Eternal Life. There is no such doctrine in the NC, nor would any Protestant even talk this way.
So your words betray and condemn you. You have let the SDA’s deceive you about the Gospel. Pity.
The SDA’s are very wrong to teach that the object of the Gospel is for us to be like Jesus. This is not only incorrect theology, which Uriah Smith embraced, but it is also impossible, hardly the point of the NC.
In fact, Ellen White was a great legalist when she was younger, like so many in her day. However, to her credit, after 1888, she changed her views and repudiated the SDA teaching that taught character perfection and obedience to the law was necessary for salvation.
Listen to her stunningly correct view of the Gospel in Steps to Christ. This book was not originally printed by the Review, because it repudiated what the SDA’s had been teaching.
“The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized.”
“It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God.”
“But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous.”
“Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned.”
Steps to Christ, Chapter 7, the Test of Discipleship, p 63.
This description of Jesus being our substitute is the opposite of “emulating Jesus,” which is nothing more than code for legalism. Uriah Smith never accepted this view, nor did he reconcile with Ellen White. Traditional Adventism has self-destructed because they taught generations that they had to be like Christ.
Jesus was even called the “model man” by the 20th century SDA’s and that all must emulate him by being obedient to the Law.
This is a false Gospel. Eternal life is not predicated on how well anyone “emulates Christ” or obeys the 10 Commandments. Those who think so are Judaizers and Roman Catholics. They are not genuine Christians or Protestants.
The SDA’s must repent for misunderstanding the Gospel in both 1888, 1980, and today. They have a very false and wrong view of both theology and church history and they will continue to self-destruct until they repent and reform.
Carlton said: I do something that Jesus did and you say I have fallen from grace?
Tom said: First off, the challenge is to follow the correct Jesus as opposed to the many frauds that abound. How does anyone know who is the genuine Christ?
One way, according to Jesus, is to pay close attention to what he says about his reformed and active, NC Sabbath. It was in this specific context that speaks about following the Good Shepherd.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
The Good Shepherd is the one with the active and working 7th day Sabbath. Misunderstand this point, and you will end up a lost sheep, eaten by wolves…
John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
Second, Did Jesus emulate Jesus? Hardly. I guess you mean that he followed God and obeyed the law and you must do the same thing. But then, when it comes to the 7th day Sabbath, he did not. But yet, the SDA’s have been teaching that Jesus DID obey the 4th Commandment. They view Christ as if he is our example in law keeping. But he is not.
In fact, Paul teaches that he, Paul, is our “example” and “pattern.” But the SDA’s never teach this point?
Phil. 3:17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.
2Th. 3:7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,
1Tim. 4:12 Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe.
While Jesus is an example for many things, he is not to be imitated for salvation, and neither is Paul. Salvation is only through faith in the Gospel, not the imitation of anyone, much less obedience to the law.
1Pet. 2:21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you can example for you to follow in His steps,
Third: It is a mistake to think our obedience, on any level, is salvific. Or that we must become “like Jesus” to be saved.
Where did you get such a false and legalistic idea?
Don’t answer: I know. It was the SDA’s. This is what they taught everyone in Battle Creek and again in Takoma Park. Even to this very day, they have a false and very wrong view of the Two Covenants and the Gospel. They do not understand Galatians or the Protestant Reformation. Nor do they even care.
We are only saved by faith in Christ; not because of anything we do, much less how well we obey the Moral law or how much we love one another.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
John 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Rom. 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom. 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
Rom. 9:31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
Rom. 9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
2Cor. 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight —
Gal. 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph. 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Carlton, you are a great sinner like everyone else, except you think otherwise, which is an even greater sin, one that can be very difficult to cure.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
So you are very confused about the law and the Gospel, even blind about what Christ teaches.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Carlton said: If it is good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me.
Tom said: What are you talking about? Jesus faith or his obedience? Either way, you are not close to emulating him in either category and you are delusional to think otherwise.
Poor, wretched SDA’s, they tried so hard to become like Christ. But today they have no idea what that really means or what Christ teaches. They don’t even understand the Sabbath of Christ, choosing instead to follow Moses. Sad.
Carlton said: I can guarantee you, that anyone who fully emulates Jesus and keeps not just the letter but also the spirit of the law is safe.
Tom said: Wrong.
Remember, I told you that your own words would condemn you. Here they are for all to see. You are self-condemned. Those who think they can emulate Jesus for salvation, obeying both the spirit and letter of the law are lost in the dark. They are spiritually blind.
It was the Battle Creek SDA’s that promoted this false Gospel of keeping the letter and the spirit of the law. Neither one is salvific. In fact, this formula is poison. It is also the heart of Roman Catholic theology, which was correctly declared false by the Reformers.
1888 exposed this legalistic error, even thought the top leaders, like Uriah Smith, refused to repent of their great error. The SDA Empire self-destructed as a result.
Ellen White, to her credit, came down on the right side of this Gospel debate and thus she refuted this popular point about emulating Christ and obeying the law for salvation, for which she was exiled.
The doctrine of substitution does not fit with what Uriah Smith and the SDA’s had been teaching, nor with the doctrine of the IJ, which is supposedly an examination of how well one obeyed the law. This is why Smith was so angry.
After 1888, Ellen White understood the Gospel, declaring that the law in Galatians meant both the Ceremonial and Moral law; the very point that Luther, and now Waggoner, were making.
No one is safe or saved by keeping either the spirit or the letter of the law. Your words condemn you, even as they explain why you have repudiated the NC Sabbath of Christ, and defended Jewish food laws and the spirit of tithing in the church.
All SDA’s must repent of their OC views and make the transition to New Covenant Adventism, which starts by rejecting the IJ and tithe; and embracing the reformed and active 7th day Sabbath of Christ, where it is no longer a sin to work or play on the Sabbath.
Gal. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Carlton said: Not withstanding an earlier clarification where I cited Rahab who lied to protect the spies, she fulfilled the higher law of love to her neighbor, endangering her own life. Therefore we need to be wise and not just stop at the letter of the law. We must however ALWAYS try to follow the Spirit of the law.
Tom replied: No one is saved by their works, which is another way to speak about love. So you are once again showing your true colors, which are not Protestant.
Those who try to follow either the letter or the spirit of the law, will be lost, lost, lost. They are called Judaizers, RC’s, and legalists.
Carlton said: You may feel as an onlooker that I am enslaved. What a pity you do not know the true freedom that comes from knowing and living the Truth.
Tom replied: There is no freedom for those who are trying to follow the law. This is a great delusion that is preventing you from understanding the Gospel.
Only those who have faith in Christ, and not the law, will experience any freedom of conscience. Thus the true sheep will follow the active Sabbath of Christ. They are able to work and play on the 7th day without guilt, shame, or sin. They are truly free from law keeping.
John 8:36 “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
Rom. 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Gal. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal. 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, (or practice tithing or OC Sabbath keeping), Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, (or pays tithe or keeps the Sabbath by not working), that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
It is not easy to understand the Gospel today. Nor was it easy for those in the 1st century. In fact, the leaders of the apostolic church became so confused about the Gospel that they ended up preaching a false version that was strongly condemned by Paul.
No wonder that the same thing has happened today. If Peter and James could misunderstand the Gospel; promoting error about the teachings of Christ, so too the pathetic leaders today, who are much less than apostles.
The SDA’s, like the Jews, have ruined themselves because of their obsession with the law. Law, law, law, is what they are all about. They don’t know or understand the Gospel, which is very different from Law.
It is time for the Adventists to turn their backs on the Old Covenant and the law and turn towards Christ and his Gospel, embracing the Spirit of Christ and the law of Christ, which is also known as the “law of faith.”
It is time for NC Adventism.
Carlton asked: Isn't it the case that the NC is a change of medium, not a change of law?
Tom replied: No. A change in the Covenant is a change in the Priesthood, which demands a change in the Law and the Temple.
Heb. 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
There are no Levites in the NC. So the “law” must be changed in order to accommodate a very different configuration, more specifically the “Priesthood of All Believers.”
Under the NC, Christians are under the “law of Christ”, not the Law of Moses.
1Cor. 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
What Jesus teaches about the 10 Commandments is “law” for all that follow him. When it to comes to the 4th Commandment, he teaches that all who follow him are free to work on the 7th day without guilt or sin. This is the true, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath, the genuine Lord’s Day of the church, the “law of Christ.”
Those who think otherwise, misunderstand Christ and the Gospel. They are following a false Christ who knows no mercy or freedom from the guilt law. Jesus is not to be confused with Moses, nor the law with the Gospel.
Carlton said: In other words Hebrews 8 does not change the law, it changes where they are written!
Tom said: This is the problem with proof texting. It ignores the context and original intent of the writers, in favor of apologetics.
In your haste to defend false doctrine, you over looked Heb 7:12, which clearly made the point that the law had to change when the priesthood changed. The author referred to this change as a “necessity.”
The SDA’s have never understood the Two Covenants correctly and they need to stop being so wrong about the law and the Gospel, as well as the Sabbath.
The 10 Commandants are not binding on the church, which is why the SDA OC Sabbath is very wrong. However, the “law of Christ” teaches a working 7th day Sabbath. This is what the church must follow, and so it will before the return of Christ.
Read Galatians; it is all about what to do with the 10 Commandments. It is clear that you do not understand this theology or church history correctly. No Traditional SDA understands this material; Galatians is a mystery. And the SDA’s want to keep it that way
Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
The SDA’s have a warped and very wrong view of Galatians, for which they must repent.
Carlton said: In Galatia, like every New Testament book, there were false teachers that had "bewitched" them.
Tom said: There are always false teachers. The SDA’s are the modern day Judaizers and Pharisees in the church. They teach false doctrine and have bewitched millions with the same confusion and error about the law and the Gospel that took place in the early church. But there is one big difference.
The details of this debate were preserved in the Gospel Record for all to see. This is why the book of Galatians was written. So that the church would understand this important history.
But the SDA’s tried to hide and cover-up their 1888 Gospel debate, all in an effort to keep people from knowing how wrong they were in Battle Creek.
If the SDA’s were in charge of the NT, the book of Galatians would have been censored and removed. Just like they hid the 1888 debate all these years. I hope you can understand how wicked and dishonest the SDA’s have become.
Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Carlton said: These were indeed legalists that insisted on circumcision for Gentiles.
Tom replied: You misunderstand. The Pharisees in the church also wanted the Gentiles to follow the OC Food Laws as well as keep the 7th day Sabbath free from work. In short, they wanted them to become OC Jews before they could follow the Jewish Messiah.
So it was not only about ritual circumcision, but about many other OC laws as well, including the Gospel. This group was blending and mixing the OC with the NC.
The Jews in the early church were trying to develop a “balanced Gospel,” one that honered the Law AND Faith in Christ. Not only was this great error, it is also the basis for Roman Catholic theology, and also for what the SDA’s teach.
Carlton said: There is no condemnation of the Ten Commandments in the New Testament. There is an end to the "handwriting of ordinance", i.e. Moses book of laws NOT God's writing on stone.
Tom said: Wow! You could not be more wrong. Sorry. Your words brand you as a legalist, not a Protestant.
Your view represents Traditional Adventism and also what the RC church teaches. This is the same error that Uriah Smith taught and what all 19th century SDA’s promoted as the basis for Sabbath Reform. (Meaning OC, 7th day, Sabbath keeping).
In the mid 1880’s, E J Waggoner had been reading Luther’s Commentary on Galatians. He soon understood that the SDA’s were wrong to claim Paul was only speaking of the ceremonial law in Galatians. He came to understand, like Luther, that it was also the Moral Law that was under discussion. (You stand opposed to Luther and Waggoner).
Waggoner also figured out that it was the Roman Catholics that teach the law in Galatians is ONLY the ceremonial law. The Protestant Reformers all viewed Galatians like Luther. Thus the SDA’s, including the great Uriah Smith were wrong about the law and the Gospel, as well as the Reformation.
Ellen White, who had just toured the Reformation lands in Europe, sided with Waggoner and Luther. Uriah Smith fought her to his death, even as she had him fired from the Review for legalism.
But Smith, a Traditional SDA, won the debate, and thus the Battle Creek SDA’s refused to repent and correct their false ways. Then the church self-destructed, which is why the leaders retreated to Takoma Park and repeated their same Gospel errors. And then they self-destructed once more after Glacier View.
Here is a thread that deals with the Reformation. You need to study it and learn:
Law & Gospel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1122
Rom. 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Rom. 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom. 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
Gal. 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
Rom. 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Those who are following the genuine Christ and his Spirit will understand what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath and what he does not.
Misunderstand what Jesus teaches about the 4th Commandment, and the NC Sabbath, and the Gospel will also be misunderstood. This is what has taken place with every church and denomination in the world, including the stubborn and incompetent SDA’s.
Carlton's response: Who gave the law on Sinai? Was in not Christ?
Tom said: It does not matter. The Law is part of the OC. God invented the OC. But it was not made to last forever. It was temporary.
Carlton said: If it is Christ (1 Corinthians 10:4) then the 10 commandments are the Law of Christ.
Tom replied: The law of Christ is not, not, not, the 10 Commandments. No Protestant can think this way. Nor is this what Jesus or Paul teaches. Once again, your words stand against you.
Those who confuse Christ’s Gospel teachings and “sayings,” known as the “law of Christ,” with the Law of Moses and the 10 Commandments, have fallen from Grace. They do not understand or embrace the Gospel. They are Judaizers, who cannot accept the active and free Sabbath of Christ.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”
1Th. 4:2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.
John 13:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
John 15:12 “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
Gal. 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
Carlton said: If it wasn't Christ, did Jesus disagree with the Ten Commandments?
Tom replied: Jesus supports the Moral law, (including the concept of a weekly, 7th day Sabbath), which is why he teaches that it is a sin to even think murderous or adulterous thoughts.
However, he views the OC Sabbath doctrine as outdated. Thus he promotes a NC Sabbath that is based on the Priesthood of All Believers, thus declaring that all are free of the rules against work in the 4th commandment.
Jesus is updating the Sabbath for the church. He is not removing it totally, or changing it to Sunday. Those who follow him are not to argue, debate and refute Christ. They are to believe what he teaches, not be embarrassed about his NC doctrine of the Sabbath.
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Carlton said: Would he "own" them or disown them? There is no incompatibility.
Tom said: You have missed the point. The law cannot save anyone. Even though it is “good,” it is bad for salvation, because no one can obey it good enough.
When it comes to understanding the Gospel, the law and the Gospel are not compatible. They are enemies at war.
Carlton stated: The law of God, the Ten Commandments are the Law of Christ - something tangible not some vague concept that can be made to mean all things to all people!
Tom replied: No. You are wrong again. Read this passage a few times until you can see what Paul is saying:
1Cor. 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
Carlton said: The spirit of the law of God, is the spirit of the Law, is the law of Christ. Do you disagree?
Tom said: Absolutely, I disagree! The SDA’s have confused you and themselves in the process. You must study your way out of OC Adventism is you want to have Eternal Life. Such a prize is not given to those so disoriented and wrong about the Gospel.
Carlton said: When you class all work as priestly work, in my view you make a mistake and do not see the purpose of the spirit of the 4th commandment:
Tom replied: Sorry. No mistake.
Moreover, there is no such thing or term as the “spirit of the law” in the Gospel. You are making up your own personal theology in order to defend false doctrine. Such a stunt is futile.
Pay attention: the 4th Commandment DID NOT APPLY TO THE LEVITES. Period!
While the Spirit of the OC Law does promote rest on the 7th day, the Spirit of Christ does not, not, not. Which Spirit are you going to follow? Law or Gospel?
Carlton's response: I follow the law and the gospel, the two go hand in hand in my view, in the same view that faith without works is dead.
Tom replied: Wrong. The Law and the Gospel do not, not, not, go hand in hand. No Protestant could ever make such a statement.
The SDA’s have made fools of themselves by teaching such a “balanced Gospel.” This is just code for a false Gospel where law keeping and sanctification are part of the salvation process.
In fact, the SDA’s teach that our sanctification will be judged in the IJ to see if we are good enough to be saved. They teach that it takes more than faith to be saved. It also includes obedience to the law; thus both faith and works are required for salvation.
Such views are anything but Protestant. Luther would curse the SDA’s to hell, and so too would Paul. James however, would understand.
So again, your words condemn your false Roman Catholic/ SDA theology. The SDA’s have filled your mind with so much error that you need to fight hard to understand the genuine Gospel of Christ.
Carlton said: I endeavor to do God's will, keep the Law of Christ because I love him and accept his love for me. John 14:15.
Tom said: You speak like a Pharisee. Do you also tithe and follow Jewish food laws? This is the talk of an SDA Judaizer, one that supports Gospel error and myth.
If you really kept the “law of Christ,” you would understand that “work” on the 7th day is no longer sinful. THIS is what Jesus teaches.
But you have not even heard about this teaching from Jesus, nor do you know how to define or articulate the Gospel correctly, much less keep the Law in its proper place.
1Tim. 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
Why is that? Because you don’t really read the Gospel to learn from Christ. SDA’s only read the Bible to prove their views correct and all others wrong. This is no way to learn the Gospel.
Those who follow Christ by faith, and believe what he teaches, have Eternal Life. They are considered by Heaven to be righteous, following the “law of Christ,” not the Law of Moses. It is those who are NOT accounted righteousness by faith that need Law. Not those who believe.
1Tim. 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
1Tim. 1:10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
1Tim. 1:11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
All SDA’s today should know there is no salvation in law keeping. They should have learned the Gospel long ago, as well as with the correct doctrine of the Sabbath. But they have not. Pity. They are still thinking like rebellious children, refusing to admit their errors.
Anyone trying to obey the law, including and especially the 4th Commandment, are not pleasing God. Rather, they are refuting him and his Christ and denying the Gospel in the process. They are not even Protestant, much less living under the NC.
The SDA’s have the wrong Gospel, which is why they also have the wrong, OC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath and many other errors, like tithe and food laws.
Tom said: Here is the point about the NC Sabbath: ALL that follow Christ are “classified” as being priests of God. There are no Levites in the church, much less tithe to support them. Thus EVERYONE in the church is now equal, all are Priests. Both men and women.
Here is the theological basis for the NC Sabbath of Christ. Just as the Levites received an exemption from the 4th Commandment, so too the Christian Priesthood, thanks to the High Priest, Jesus Christ, who is also the Lord and protector of the NC Sabbath doctrine.
All work that is done by any church member on the 7th day, even for hire, is covered by the Priestly exemption given to the church by Christ. The fact that so few know the true Gospel Sabbath is beside the point. The Gospels are clear about what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, and the Temple for that matter, which is now the church body, the members, not the building.
Carlton said: Have a day of rest, take the opportunity to fellowship with God's people in public worship (Heb 10:25, Acts 13:42 - 44).
Tom said: I notice that you did not quote Christ. Why is that? Jesus is the author of the NC Sabbath. He has much to say about it. Why do so many ignore what Jesus teaches about the 7th day? Very strange.
Carlton's response:
John 4:22 ...for salvation is of the Jews.
Matt 5: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18* For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
John 14: 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Matt 19:16* Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17* So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18* He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’
19* ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”
Is that enough?
Tom replied: No. This string of texts in no way disproves the Reformed Sabbath of Christ, much less refutes the Priesthood of all believers, which is the basis for the NC working Sabbath. Nor does it show that the Gospel and the law should be blended or that the law of Christ is the 10 Commandments.
This random list of passages proves nothing, except you need to learn how to study and understand the Bible. Few SDA’s know how to read the Bible. Rather, they are taught how to prove this point or disprove that point through the dishonest manipulation of proof texting and double-talk.
While there is a “resting Sabbath” in the OC, not so in the NC. The SDA’s have embraced the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath, and so too have all others.
Sabbath:
Carlton said: Luke 4:16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.
What you are saying is Jesus by his example gave something that misleads all who emulate this aspect of His life. How can that be possible? How can you really believe that you are smarter than Jesus?
Tom replied: You misunderstand the NC Sabbath of Christ. Jesus teaches a weekly 7th day doctrine for the church, which also includes a congregational gathering where prayer, preaching of the Gospel, and reading the Word takes place. His example must not be overlooked.
Heb. 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
Heb. 10:24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
Heb. 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
There is a weekly doctrine of the Sabbath for the church. Most all Christians believe this, and they are correct to do so. THIS is what Hebrews 4 is saying.
The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242
Carlton said: Tom while you condemn SDA's for Sabbath keeping, condemn Jews for Sabbath keeping you would have to condemn Jesus for Sabbath keeping as well.
Tom replied: Wrong. The Gospel Story shows that Christ DID NOT keep the OC Sabbath. This is why the Jewish leaders became so angry. How can you not know this well documented fact?
More than that: Jesus told others that they could work on the Sabbath and be innocent.
The Jews refused the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath, which accompanied it. THIS is why they condemned Christ. They would not let go of the OC Law, including the 4th Commandment, the Levitical priesthood, circumcision, or the Temple, etc.
John 11:46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them the things which Jesus had done.
John 11:47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs.
John 11:48 “If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”
The SDA’s think like the legalistic Jews, which is why they fight against the Gospel and the active, NC Sabbath of Christ. The leaders know that if the Adventist people embrace the genuine teachings of Christ, the tithe will be cut off, and these religious Priests and Pharisees will lose their positions of influence and power.
So they lie about the Gospel and promote error on top of error, all in the name of God, Jesus, and Ellen White. They are in a fight for their earthly lives, having already ruined their chances for Eternal Life.
Carlton said: He certainly didn't do carpentry work on Sabbath.
Tom said: How do you know this? He could have? Work is work is work. He also could have gathered wood to start a fire, or fix a broken door, or do anything under the NC.
At the time of Jesus ministry, he became a public Prophet and healer; he was no longer a carpenter.
So he broke the OC law as a Prophet and healer, (not a carpenter), even as he declared he was greater than the Temple. I suggest that you pay attention to him:
Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
Carlton said: It appears that you think OT priests could do carpentry, building, far journeys, etc on Sabbath - I'm sorry there is no evidence, nor any sense that the Priests would do things that were prohibited for the rest of the Israelites.
Tom said: Are you an expert in Jewish studies? Or are you just shooting from the hip, promoting what you want to hear? Which is it?
The Levites were exempt from the prohibition against work in the 4th Commandment. Period. The fact some don’t want to believe what Christ teaches on this point, is irrelevant. It is the basis for Jesus’ NC Sabbath where all are priests, and all are exempt from the 4th Commandment.
I understand that such theology makes no sense to an SDA. They have been brainwashed for generations into believing so much cultic and legalistic error, that this new 7th day Sabbath cannot be processed by their dysfunctional minds. It cannot possibly be true, they say. After all, how could the SDA’s have the wrong Sabbath?
How could the Jews?
Carlton said: What you describe is an entire system of hypocrisy. Do as I say not do as I do - I'm sorry I serve a different God.
Tom said: The OC was temporary. God designed the NC to replace the OC. THIS is what Jesus was doing.
Thus, Jesus teaches the New Covenant, not hypocrisy. It was those who refused to let go of the OC that became great hypocrites, enemies of God and Christ.
Carlton, beware of the delusional Jews, err, I mean, the SDA’s. Their false Christ demands obedience to the OC law, and comes with the spirit of law, which is the spirit of slavery and darkness.
Carlton said: My God is subject, and was subject, to his laws, doesn't change his mind to suit the convenience of man. The laws he gave on stone were perfect Psalm 19:7. Why change them? It makes no sense.
Tom said: God must like change, because he is the one that designed and implemented the Old Covenant, even as he also planned to replace it with the NC. With such planned change, how can you say that God does not change?
Heb. 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
The Gospel makes no sense to those obsessed with Law. This is why the Jews could not embrace the Gospel, or the working Sabbath of Christ that comes with this new theology. They resisted the change that Christ brought through the Gospel.
The SDA’s have done the same thing. Which is why they still think God wants them to “rest” on the 7th day, as if there were Jews that had never heard the Gospel or the teachings of Christ about the 4th Commandment.
Moreover, your own words show that you are not a Protestant, or a follower of the genuine Christ or his Gospel. Sad.
Tom said: While all SDA’s have all been brainwashed into thinking that the Sabbath is for rest, this is wrong. That is the OC view from Jewish Law.
We live under the NC, not the OC, (except for SDA’s, they love the OC and live under it.) What Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath is what the church must follow. Not what the Jews teach or what the Jewish law demands.
Although work is no longer restricted on the 7th day, the congregational aspect of the Sabbath is still functional. It is still the correct day for the church to meet in Gospel fellowship, prayer, and praise. It is still a doctrine that upholds God and Christ as the creator of the world, and so it shall be forever.
Carlton said: All the ministry that Christ performed on Sabbath was in fulfilment of the prophecy of Isaiah 61:
Tom said: This passage in no way refutes what Christ teaches about the Gospel Sabbath, much less supports the OC Sabbath of the SDA’s. You have to do much better then this to make your case.
Carlton said: If you can show where Jesus did some carpentry on Sabbath or encouraged his disciples to do some fishing, tax collecting or building work on Sabbath then you can say that the Gospel does indeed teach that Christ abolished the laws prohibiting work on Sabbath. Until then I assume this is you opinion again.
Tom replied: Jesus was on a Gospel mission from God. At the start of his public ministry, he was a healer, leaving behind his former craft as a builder. Healers were not allowed to heal on the 7th day anymore than builders were allowed to repair or homes. So he was making the same point, even though it has been lost on many.
Luke 13:14 But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, “There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day.”
Moreover, the Jews well understood where Jesus new teachings would lead. All the Jewish leaders would be removed, and so too the Levites and OC Judaism would disappear. The food laws would also be ignored and Sabbath breaking would be encouraged. Circumcision would be outlawed, and the Temple marginalized, thus Judaism would be ruined by these new teachings of Jesus, which would allow the Gentiles to enter the Kingdom of God on an equal basis with Jews.
The Jews rejected the NC teachings of Christ in favor of the OC status quo. Then they lost what they had so desperately tried to preserve and were destroyed.
Carlton said: You also say that he reformed the OC Sabbath law, but actually did he simply live the way the law was meant to be applied?
Tom said: No. The OC law was clear that no one, except a Levite, could do any work on the 7th day. In fact, God told Moses to stone a man to death who was caught gathering sticks on the Sabbath to start a fire.
So this idea that Jesus was correcting the errors of the Jews about Sabbath keeping is dead wrong. Jesus was teaching a very new and different Sabbath doctrine to the Jews as part of the Gospel. It stunned and enraged them. And it will do the same today to all who are legalists and hate the Gospel.
Carlton said: As the law giver he knew what was intended and understood how it was corrupted, the way I see it he simply lived in harmony with the OC laws, particularly the 10 commandments according to the spirit of the law.
Tom replied: Jesus came to replace the OC with the NC. He knew that the OC Law was temporary, and so too the OC Sabbath. Jesus introduced the NC to the Jews and the church. He knew what he was doing, and thus his NC Sabbath was not meant to support the OC whatsoever. Rather, Christ designed the NC Sabbath, or Lord’s Day, for the church. What a pity that all have forsaken Christ and his Gospel Sabbath? No wonder the PAJ is so harsh?
The Laodicean church is blind to the Gospel and the NC Sabbath of Christ. While the SDA’s were supposed to become the healers of the blind, helping reform the church, they too have become unable to see. Now they are part of the problem, when they were supposed to have the solution. Sad.
Carlton said: Where, for example, we have a duty to break the law at times (James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?) Similarly if we need to feed someone it is okay to cook, purchase food in order to feed a stranger that we encounter on Sabbath.
Tom said: The law does not contain or show mercy. Nor is it the duty of anyone living under the law to break it. Such myths are dangerous. Those who break the law must pay.
Also, here is hint for you: when having a discussion about the Gospel with a Protestant, it is not wise to embrace the book of James, as if he were a Gospel expert. He was a great legalist in the apostolic church.
Such a rookie mistake gives the game away, proving you are a clueless amateur that has lost the debate for it even started.
Carlton's Response: The fact that James, the same apostle that wrote faith without works is dead, commends Rahab shows that you do not understand James, let alone Law and Gospel.
Tom replied: Ha! So James is a Gospel expert? Hardly. He was the leader of Judaizers in the church, and he is the one that caused the great Galatian debate. He misunderstood the Gospel so badly that Paul condemned him.
James is no Gospel expert, and neither are you. Stop pretending and learn the Gospel before it’s too late and you become incapable of change.
Carlton said: Rahab broke the law, appears in the hall of fame for the Faithful in Heb 11.
Tom said: Few in the OT understood the Gospel, including Rehab. But she chose the right God to follow and thus she was saved for her loyalty, which was exhibited by her daring works.
This is not really a Gospel Story, nor is the Torah a safe place to learn the Gospel. Rather, you must go to Jesus in the Gospels and then Paul, learn from them; not from Moses, Rahab, James, or the SDA’s.
Carlton said: This is all OC, understood by those in the NC, trying to explain precisely what I said that Jesus lived in harmony with the law as it was intended to be kept and all who follow his example and teaching are on the safest ground possible.
Tom replied: Those in the OC did not understand the Gospel as you claim. Nor were they saved because of their obedience to the 10 Commandments. Rather, it was the ceremonial laws that represented forgiveness of sin, salvation, and the Gospel in the OC. Participation in these Temple services is what saved sinners in the OT, not their law keeping, at which they were awful.
Tom replied: Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”
Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Jesus preaches the Gospel, not the law. His NC Sabbath is not of law, but of faith. This is why it is no longer sinful to work on the 7th day. The Gospel Sabbath is a living metaphor of the freedom of the Gospel, where the teachings of Jesus trump law. Proving that the Christian is not to worry about the Law, not even the 4th Commandment.
Those who follow Christ are NOT UNDER THE LAW. Conversely, those who have placed themselves under the law, like the SDA’s, are NOT FOLLOWING CHRIST. They are anti-Christ, just like the tithe paying, Sabbath keeping Jews.
Carlton said: However, the Sabbath is still the 7th day. And it is still a m.
Tom replied: Yes, the 7th day is still the Sabbath. For those under the law, like the Jews or the SDA’s, it is the OC Sabbath that is embraced. However, for those under the Gospel and the NC “law of Christ,” it is the active and reformed NC Sabbath that is followed.
The Sabbath we embrace reflects on our choice of theology.
Those who misunderstand Christ and what he teaches, will embrace a false view of the Sabbath, even the wrong day. While those who pay attention to Christ and his genuine Gospel, will only embrace his active, 7th day, NC Sabbath.
Let all that are wise, choose the correct Gospel Sabbath, as well as the genuine Christ, the Lord of the NC Sabbath.
Carlton's response: Tom, the crucial point about SDA being wrong on the Sabbath you have made clearly. On the one hand it is the right day but then if we keep it we are "brainwashed", "ruined", "have fallen from grace", "do not understand the Gospel correctly", "nor do they have Eternal Life", "They are in serious danger of being lost".
Tom replied: Those who think it sinful to work on the 7th day Sabbath are OC minded and do not understand the Gospel or what Jesus teaches about salvation. There is no “keeping” of the Sabbath, as if we are OC Jews. This is the error of the SDA’s.
Those that follow Christ will acknowledge the 7th day Sabbath; and meet together for Gospel fellowship on a regular basis AS JESUS TEACHES.
However, they will not think it sinful to work on this day, because it is not. This is also what JESUS TEACHES.
The Gospel Sabbath is not like the legalistic, OC Sabbath of the Jews or SDA’s.
Confuse these two types of Sabbath, and you are lost. Why? Because the active Sabbath of Christ represents the genuine Gospel, while the OC, resting Sabbath represents the faithless Jews that refused the Gospel and killed Christ.
Eternal life is only for those who embrace the genuine Gospel teachings of Christ, which include his active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath. Those that embrace a false view, like the SDA’s or the Sunday keepers, are doomed, just like the 1st century Jews that also rejected the Gospel and the NC Sabbath of Christ.
Carlton said: This double speak seems more confusing except that as there is only a brief mention that it is the right day and you overwhelmingly are negative toward Sabbath keeping.
Tom said: Ha! It is those that try to defend the OC Sabbath that are full of double-talk, confusion, and error. Guess what? If the correct doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath is incomprehensible, so too is the Gospel.
The Gentiles had no issues with legalism or Jewish tradition. They happily embraced the working Sabbath of Christ. It was the Jewish Christians, like James, that made things confused by promoting the OC in the church. This is exactly what the SDA’s have also done.
Look at the results. The Jews were wiped out and the SDA’s are self-destructing. It is a great mistake to confuse the OC with the NC. Such a theological formula will only cause division and destruction and the loss of the Gospel.
Mark 3:25 “If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.
The NC can never be shared or divided with the OC. All doctrine in the church must be 100% NC.
Carlton said: I have no doubt that this lack of coherence will not result in many people accepting it that are able to reason appropriately.
Tom said: Today, every church and denomination in the world embraces a false and incoherent view of the Sabbath or Lord’s Day. Most even have the wrong day, and all have the wrong view, including and especially the SDA’s who have the right day, but follow the enemies of Christ, the Gospel hating Jews.
Moreover, this is not about being able to reason, but rather, being able to read and understand what Jesus teaches about the Gospel. Those who find Christ incoherent have no chance at Eternal Life unless they can understand his words and doctrine.
Eternal Life is for those who can figure out what Jesus is saying and what he is not. Most people don’t get very far before they either give up or make up what they want to hear, and pretend that is truth.
Because so many have been misled by their religious leaders, the truth about the Gospel and the Sabbath, which is part of it, is virtually unknown. Such a situation makes the truth look strange and impossible, just like in the 1st century. Thus many are prevented from understanding Gospel truth because of their preconceived assumptions and false traditions.
Carlton said: I would also appreciate that you don't selectively quote my responses, because I make points that you ought to expose to other readers.
Tom said: Your incorrect and legalistic views have been well expressed for all to see. It is clear that you do not understand the law or the Gospel correctly, much less the NC Sabbath doctrine. The SDA’s have misled and confused you, so you are going to have to work hard to study your way out of this mess
Carlton said: I also ask questions that you seem to choose not to answer.
Tom said: I have no idea what questions you claim have not been addressed. If so, it was not intentional. So please feel free to ask any follow up questions or make whatever points you want.
Adventist Reform operates in an open and free environment, for the benefit of all. No need to run from any questions or hide comments. Truth must be transparent and fair, while its enemies have no such rules.
Carlton said: I have genuinely tried to follow this NC idea that you have but I haven't found it sound, coherent, or even scriptural. The reference in john 5 to Jesus working is a case in point.
Tom replied: You need to try much harder to understand the Gospel of Christ, because you are in a fog, like all SDA’s. You need to keep studying.
I thank you for having the courage to discuss Adventist Reform in public. While it is clear that we do not agree on the definition of the Gospel or the NC Sabbath, hopefully this discussion has helped clarify some of these issues for others, if not for you.
In conclusion:
1) You were wrong and very uninformed about how the Gentiles came into the church. You need to admit this point and recalculate your position based on this new (to you) information. Can you do this?
2) You are also wrong about the meaning of the term “law” in Galatians.
Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Unfortunately, you have the typical SDA view of Uriah Smith, which is also the Roman Catholic view. This proves that you are not even a Protestant, much less an SDA that follows the changed, post 1888 Gospel position of Ellen White.
All SDA’s need to repent of this false view of Galatians so that they can comprehend the genuine Gospel, which includes the active, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.
3) All SDA’s need to understand that the 10 Commandments are not binding on the church. Rather, it is the sayings, teachings, and commandments of Christ that must be followed for Eternal Life.
This “law of Christ” includes Jesus primary teaching that faith in him is the only way to find Eternal Life, which is a free gift. Salvation is not based on our obedience to the law or even how well we follow what Jesus teaches about behavior or love.
4) Jesus’ active and reformed, NC Sabbath is a living metaphor of the Gospel, where faith in Christ trumps law keeping. Those who follow the Sabbath of Moses, like the SDA’s, instead of the Sabbath of Christ, do not understand the Gospel. They are refuting both God and Christ and thus they are lost.
5) Today, the preaching of Jesus’ 7th day Gospel Sabbath will stun and divide the church, - just like it did to the 1st century Jews. The NC Sabbath will shock and condemn all Laodiceans, starting with the SDA’s, which is why they must repent.
6) Under the NC, there can be no tithing or a hierarchy as the SDA’s practice. Nor can there be clean or unclean foods, much less OC Sabbath keeping or pretending that wine is sinful. The Adventist Community needs to learn the difference between law and Gospel. They have only lived under the former, not comprehending the latter.
7) It is time for the SDA’s to understand the Gospel and fully embrace the NC. Their OC doctrines and Judaizing ways, like the Friday “Preparation Day” must be removed. They must repent for many things, including both 1888 and Glacier View, where the Denomination officially rejected the Gospel and opted to embrace the “Law of Moses” instead of the “law of Christ.”
It is time for New Covenant Adventism.
Matt. 11:15 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Tom Norris, for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform
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New Covenant Adventism ??
The New Covenant does not change or abrogate the law.
Rather the New Covenant was to write the law on the hearts of men (Jeremiah 31:31-34).
Thus men would keep the law and the Sabbath because of a heart of love for Christ.
They would rest on the Sabbath so that their fellowship with Christ would not be interrupted by routine work!
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Hub, nice to hear from you again.
Congratulations on your new book. I know you have been focused on this for many years. Now that it’s complete, perhaps you can continue to search for more truth? If so, Adventist Reform is for you.
Hub asked: New Covenant Adventism ??
Tom replied: Yes. NCA, also known as Adventist Reform, is the opposite of Old Covenant Adventism with its many errors, like the IJ, tithe, and the OC Sabbath of Moses, where it was sinful for anyone but the pastors/priests to work on the 7th day.
New Covenant Adventism embraces the 7th day Sabbath of Christ; where no one is forced to “rest” under the penalty of condemnation or death. All are free to work on the Sabbath and not be guilty of sin.
While the 7th day is still the correct day for the church to meet for Gospel fellowship, praise and worship, there are no rules against work on the Sabbath, as OC Adventism teaches.
In the NC, the 7th day is not for “rest” but for activity and work, as well as for Gospel fellowship. It is the genuine Lord’s Day of the NT, and the completion of the SDA quest for Sabbath Reform.
Here are two threads about this “new” Gospel doctrine that reflects the Priesthood of All Believers” along with freedom from the guilt and penalty of the law. This correct 7th day doctrine from Christ has been in the Gospels since the 1st century. How could so many miss it?
The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228
SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836
The SDA’s were hot on the trail of the Gospel Sabbath, which is why they embraced the 7th day instead of Sunday. Good for them! However, they should have gone forward in order to get it fully correct in 1888, and again in 1980. But here we are; - better late then never.
Today, we know there is more to the Sabbath doctrine than the 4th Commandment, and more to this teaching than just the Day.
NCA features the reformed and active, 7th day Sabbath, as taught by Christ. OC Adventists follow the Sabbath of Moses, and of the Jews that killed Christ. This is the wrong Sabbath doctrine.
The SDA church must repent of this great error about the Law, and only embrace the NC Sabbath as taught by Christ. Period.
Hub said: The New Covenant does not change or abrogate the law.
Tom replied: Wrong. The NC DOES CHANGE LAW.
Come on Hub, you know better than this. Uriah Smith played the same games, and look where it all ended up. You need to read Galatians and get on the right side of this Gospel debate.
Heb. 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
Heb. 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
No Traditional SDA understands the Two Covenants correctly, or the book of Galatians. These “old wine” Christians have become comfortable with the past traditions, not wanting to bother with new truth
Luke 5:39 “And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, ‘The old is good enough.’”
Many fail to understand that a “better Covenant” would replace the OC, which was only a “shadow” of the NC.
Heb. 10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.
Law and Gospel cannot be joined as the SDA’s teach. They are different and competing paradigms, not meant to be combined.
Listen to Jesus make this point in a very graphic manner (assuming you understand that wine in the Bible is not grape juice.)
Mark 2:21 “No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; otherwise the patch pulls away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear results.
Mark 2:22 “No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins.”
The blending of the Old and New Covenants causes the destruction of both. The church is the new wineskin, the new wine is the New Covenant.
2Cor. 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
The OC is not the NC, nor is the Law of Moses the same as the Law of Christ. What Jesus teaches, - trumps Law, even as the 4th Commandment is made moot by the Gospel. (The Sabbath doctrine is not made moot, only the OC version of it.)
Until the SDA’s tell the truth about what happened in 1888, and confess for being so wrong about the law in Galatians, they are doomed. Millions more will walk away from such Old Covenant legalism until no one is left.
Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
How do you read this famous passage?
Are those in the NC “under” the Moral “law” or not? No they are not.
More specifically, does the church have to obey the 4th Commandment like the OC Jews?
No.
The church must follow what Christ teaches about the Sabbath and all else. Period.
So what does Jesus teach? This is what the church must follow.
Hub said: Rather the New Covenant was to write the law on the hearts of men (Jeremiah 31:31-34).
Tom replied: Correct. Love is the fulfilling of the law. Wonderful and true. But guess what? This does not change the Gospel or the fact that we are not under law, but under faith in Christ.
Rom. 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Gal. 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
We are saved, by faith in Christ as our personal substitute, not as our example to obey law. Eternal life is for those who believe in Christ for salvation, not for those who obey Moses. Eternal life is a free gift from Christ, not a reward for our obedience and sanctification.
Phil. 3:7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
Phil. 3:8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
Phil. 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph. 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Law & Gospel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1122
Hub said: Thus men would keep the law and the Sabbath because of a heart of love for Christ. They would rest on the Sabbath so that their fellowship with Christ would not be interrupted by routine work!
Tom replied: While Jesus supports the moral law, even teaching that it is sinful to think bad thoughts, what does he teach about the 4th Commandment? This is the question.
Does he teach that the 7th day is for rest? No.
Does he teach the Sabbath is to be kept like Moses and the OC Jews? No.
Or does he teach a different doctrine of the Sabbath that is based on a different view of the Priesthood, Temple, and Law? Yes.
The SDA’s were correct to embrace the 7th day, and to repudiate the Sunday Lord’s day. But they were wrong not to fully understand the Gospel, and to think that we are under law, bound by the 4th Commandment, as if Christ has not made himself clear on this point.
When the Gospel is fully understood, so too, the doctrine of the NC, 7th day Sabbath.
It is time for Old Covenant Adventism to repent and fully embrace the New Covenant, which features the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. Here is the true Gospel Sabbath for the last church. Here is a great and true pillar of the Advent Movement. Let all rejoice that truth has been found.
It is time for Adventist Reform. OC Adventism, which is the 3rd Angels Message, has failed for all to see. Time to move forward to the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18.
What do you say Hub? Are you ready to help push Adventism forward? Or will you try to hold the Movement back, supporting the status quo, which is not only wrong, but also, unsustainable?
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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Tom Norris Responds to Spectrum’s Claim About Truth Telling
See: Tipping Point for Truth-Telling; Spectrum, 26 April 2014 | By CHARLES SCRIVEN
http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2014/0 … th-telling
Tom Norris, from Adventist Reform, commented about Spectrum's supposedly open and honest Forum.
He wrote:
"Spectrum is not promoting an honest conversation about Adventist theology or mission. Rather, they are part of the problem, all the while pretending they are great reformers. The Advent Movement has crashed and burned for all to see, and what has Spectrum done to put out the flames and clean up the mess? They are not looking for genuine reform or Gospel Change, and it is not clear that they would even know how to define the Gospel or correct Adventist mission if they were. In fact, they often use censorship to silence serious and much needed reform. So this is not a place for serious doctrinal discussion. It is only a shameless ploy to collect money. Not impressed."
Spectrum replied: We are unable to post your comment because you have been blocked by Spectrum Magazine.
Tom Norris, refusing to be silenced, responded with another, more detailed response, posted on the ATomorrow website: Spectrum is free to respond without any fear of censorship, if they have the nerve to do so. But no one should hold their breath. Those that have been in control for so long, have no intention of promoting honest discussion or serious Adventist Reform. So they fight against, and censor, genuine discussion about Gospel Reform. Spectrum is a fraud. They are not looking for truth, much less reform. It is money they want, so they can continue to waste everyone's time by pretending they want reform. They are part of the problem, even though they pretend to be offering a solution. Wolves have nothing good to offer Sheep. Let all Sheep beware!
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Tom Norris calls out Church Scriven and Spectrum for all to see.
Spectrum: Tipping Point for Truth-Telling, Or Typical SDA Dishonesty? / By Tom Norris, May, 2014
The recent growth of social media in the 21st century has revolutionized the print industry. Not only have magazine, books, and newspapers moved Online, the very way the public reacts and participates to the story has become part of the reading experience.
For example, one can read any article in the Washington Post online, and quickly comment, thus entering into an organic discussion with many people holding different views. This remarkable technological and cultural achievement has dramatically increased the level of communication, debate, and information sharing.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/regional/
How fortunate to live in such a Democratic and high-tech society where freedom of thought and speech is not only respected, but cherished and encouraged. Today, we live in age of instant knowledge and information, unlike anything the world has ever seen. It is breathtaking to contemplate such fulfillment of prophecy.
Dan. 12:4 “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”
However, the SDA leaders are not interested in improving their knowledge or in facilitating open and free discussion within the church. Nor do they care about prophecy or last day events. The Denomination has failed on every level, having no credible eschatology, and no plan to develop a credible, 21st century message to prepare the last church for the Tribulation or the 2nd Coming. Adventism has clearly lost its way.
One major reason for the demise of the Advent Movement is their arrogant, unbiblical, tithe based hierarchy. Such an Old Covenant, anti-Gospel, repressive system is against the teachings of Christ. This great error sets men above their peers, and allows ordinary mortals to censor and control the discussion, silencing those that disagree. This is not Gospel behavior.
Such an Old Covenant, top down system, which also mimics the Roman Catholic organization, has no place in Protestant theology. This organizational error explains why the Denomination does not respect freedom of thought or speech and why they are out of control and heading in the wrong direction, away from the Gospel. Hierarchies do not allow serious dissent or reform, much less open discussion about the issues. They are not looking for Gospel truth, but for religious control over the minds and wallets of the gullible.
Decades after Glacier View, it is clear that modern, hierarchical Adventism cannot handle honest, open, or factual discussion about either doctrine or church history. Nor will the hierarchy tolerate any train of thought that condemns their incompetence and exposes their many false doctrines as worthless double-talk.
Consequently, their many Journals, websites, and church papers, including Spectrum, are nothing more than self-serving propaganda tools, carefully manipulated, censored and controlled to defend the status quo and deflect much needed Adventist Reform. While technology has empowered the individual to become part of the discussion, the SDA’s have been fighting a battle to manipulate the discussion and control the agenda. They refuse to hear any facts that expose their errors and incompetence.
However, this fraud is a losing endeavor. The attempt to censor either the critics or the members is futile. Religious censorship is an anti-Gospel, evil tool of the past. It no longer works. Today, we live in a wired age of instant communication, where open and free discussion cannot be stopped by anyone. In fact, it is impossible to hide or censor ideas today, much less avoid scrutiny or criticism for wrongdoing.
Unfortunately, the Adventist leaders, including Chuck Scriven, are still trying to manipulate and control the discussion as if they were operating in the 1950’s. It is clear that even after the debacle of Glacier View in 1980, and after millions have left the church, that the Denomination still refuses to honestly address the issues. They still refuse to tell the truth and repent for their many errors, much less make a genuine call for doctrinal study and Reform.
By design, there is no “free press” within the Adventist Community; only heavily censored and manipulated Journals designed for propaganda purposes. Spectrum is part of this dishonest charade. While they claim to host open discussions about “re-inventing Adventism,” in reality they are doing no such thing. They routinely censor and silence those that criticize the status quo. Like the Review and AToday, they too have blacklisted Adventist Reform, purposefully censoring Tom Norris, a long time SDA from participating in the discussion.
Adventist Community Denied Free Speech
Although the SDA’s pretend to embrace social media, inviting various Forum discussions and public feedback, behind the scenes they are actually working to shape the discussion and control the agenda by censoring the opinions of those that disagree, silencing legions in the process. It is clear that the Adventist Community is not trusted by their condescending leaders to think for themselves, nor are they allowed to discuss the real issues that are destroying the Advent Movement, much less criticize those in charge.
Such totalitarian, anti-Gospel behavior explains why millions have flocked out of Adventism. And more leave every day. The present situation is not honest or sustainable. Adventism needs genuine Gospel Reform and transparency in the worst way. But the leaders are in denial, too busy trying to indoctrinate and pretend all is well, when we all know the Advent Movement has crashed and burned.
While the Adventist Community expects the Review to censor and manipulate both the copy and the reader responses, they don’t expect Spectrum to play the same paranoid, dishonest games. Of course there was a time when many believed that AToday was an independent and open Journal for discussion and reform, (because this is what they claimed). But that popular Forum was rudely shut down by the Denomination in a futile attempt to censor and stop any discussion about Adventist Reform.
Adventist Forum History
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=224
Since that time, the Adventist Community has learned the hard way that these so called “independent” Journals, with their open Forums, are no such thing. They are heavily censored and manipulated. The SDA church, including Spectrum, does not allow, or encourage, free religious discussion, much less serious criticism of the incompetent leadership, which is destroying Adventism.
Let all understand that in spite of Spectrum’s pretentions about high-minded openness, they use non-stop, targeted, censorship, refusing to allow any serious discussion about Adventist Reform, which they know has been taking place in the public domain for more than a decade. Genuine Gospel reform does not need permission from anyone, much less from those who fight the Gospel.
Adventist Reform
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=11
All Experts-
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm
Shame on Spectrum, not only for their gross censorship, but also for pretending they are open and free, when they are not. They are great hypocrites and liars, which is typical of those that support the many false doctrines of the SDA hierarchy. It is sad to see that SDA's are so dishonest. They are full of rampant corruption, which leaves honest people with few options but to walk away from such darkness.
To Spectrum’s credit, it has presented itself as an open and honest broker for truth and reform within the Adventist Community. Listen to these inspiring words from Chuck Scriven in the fall of 2007. In this editorial, he claims Spectrum has “let down the welcome mat for visionaries: as well as those with “fresh ideas,” thus encouraging open dialogue, discussion, and reform.
Scriven writes: “Let us now lay down the welcome mat for visionaries. Let pastors and older members and church leaders lay it down. Let the welcome extend to every kind and color of Adventist. Let it extend to anyone who cares enough about the Church to venture forth with a fresh idea. Let doctrinal hairsplitting, together with distrust and suspicion, come to a halt.”
(See: Fall 2007 of Spectrum magazine; Chuck Scriven reports on the Adventist Forum Conference in an editorial titled “Who Will Reinvent Adventism”.)
http://adventistforum.org/node/227
Wow! What a wonderful policy for an SDA Journal. Adventism is imploding, and Spectrum is offering to act as a facilitator and broker for those trying to reform it. Good news! Here is a welcome, much needed bi-partisan call for open discussion about Adventist Reform. An old fashioned intention to search for truth and re-energize the dying Advent Movement.
Too bad it was not true. Spectrum, like the rest of Adventist media, has no serious reform agenda. They too are boldly lying in order to raise money and carry on their worthless mission. Such is the way of modern Adventists; they censor those that seek genuine Adventist Reform, silencing the very ones that need to participate in the discussion. Spectrum, like the rest of SDA Media, is dishonest, manipulative; tasked to promote endless propaganda and doctrinal error. Let all beware.
Scriven said: The magazine and website are about honest conversation,
Tom Norris replied: Not true! Why have I been “blocked.”? For what reason? I have paid my dues and earned the right to speak. I was born an SDA, went to SDA schools and have even done original research in the White Estate; I am still part of this community. Why does Spectrum think they should censor my published views about Adventism? Why do they censor so many others? Such arrogant and dishonest behavior has no place in any Gospel discussion. Spectrum is not to be trusted whatsoever, much less supported by anyone honestly seeking for truth.
Scriven also claims that Spectrum is “building of a better church.” But how can anyone build a church when they don’t correctly comprehend the Gospel? And who gave Spectrum the right to build a church or define doctrine? They are not capable of such a task, having spent the last 45 years participating in the destruction of the Advent Movement.
Scriven claims that a “Deeper faithfulness comes instead from humility — openness to fresh perspective and readiness to shrug off mistakes and seize instead upon what is best in our heritage.”
Tom Norris replied: How do you build a “better church” on a policy of discrimination, double-talk, and censorship? Why do you censor those who bring a “fresh perspective” to the Adventist Community, when you claim this is what you want to hear? Who is Spectrum to censor any Adventist that wants to speak to the issues? Such Phariseeism is just as disgusting coming from the liberals as it is from the Traditional, legalistic crowd.
Adventist Reform is blocked and censored because it tells the truth and has the facts; it also calls Spectrum out for being part of the problem, which they are. Honesty is not something that Spectrum or any Adventist publication wants to hear. They can’t, and won’t face up to the doctrinal issues because the facts condemn the hierarchy, which they support, and proves them corrupt. So Spectrum censors and manipulates the discussion about Adventist Reform when they should be pushing for a Gospel solution to this long running crisis that is destroying the Advent Movement.
Chuck Scriven should be ashamed of himself for playing such dishonest, insider, anti-Gospel games. He is a child of the hierarchy, and thus he cares little for serious Gospel Reform. He has made a good living off the church and he seems to have no intention of biting the hand that has fed him all these years. This is how things work in the Adventist hierarchy. Money, power, politics, and prestige matter most. Not truth, openness, or Gospel doctrine. No wonder the Advent Movement is dying. How can it not be? The SDA's are very much like the 1st century Jews that killed Christ. Sad.
Let all understand that Spectrum is not searching for truth or Gospel Reform as they claim. They have never been on such a mission. In fact, the record is clear that they have spent the last 45 years being part of the problem, unable to prevent Adventism from self-destructing in doctrinal confusion and corruption. Spectrum has little to brag about, and much to correct. Adventism today is a wasteland, and Spectrum deserves some of the blame.
However, all is not lost. If Spectrum wants to live up to its lofty claims of openness and reform, it can change its policy and stop silencing Adventist Reform. Scriven needs to stop giving lip service to Adventist Reform and become part of the solution. But so far, Spectrum is part of the problem, defending the many false doctrines of the hierarchy that should be outright condemned and removed, even as it works hard to marginilize, ignore, and repudiate genuine Adventist Reform.
Although it is clear that Spectrum has no intention of being open or honest, much less promoting genuine reform, they do want your money, and they do want to expand their little “Adventist Journal” around the globe, developing it into a multi-million dollar platform for their special blend of worthless pluralism and liberal double-talk.
What would a refinanced Spectrum look like? Would there be an honest discussion about the issues? A push for serious Gospel Reform? Or more likely, worthless articles about minor and irrelevant issues. Perhaps they will revive the discussion about the Wedding Ring, as that diversion has worked well for them in the past. Spectrum is all about diversion and entertainment, not genuine Gospel Reform.
Let all understand; the crisis in Adventism is not about mixed genders or what happened in WWI. Such confused reporting is not cutting edge Journalism, but diversionary, muckraking about anything other than the real issues.
Spectrum gushed: “With a deadline of June 30 and a gifts goal of $250,000 — twice what came in during the fiscal year before this one — the Campaign is 84% of the way to the finish line. In view of the success so far, editor Bonnie Dwyer has already sent Larry Geraty to South Africa to report on a controversial discussion of 'alternative' sexualities convened there by the General Conference. She will have reporters, too, at an upcoming conference in Germany about how—and this is a big deal—World War I affected Adventism.”
Tom Norris replies: Spectrum is a confused and misleading publication that is part of the problem. They don't know what stories to chase, or for what point? Why don't they look into the massive, ongoing publishing fraud in the White Estate? Why don't they get to the bottom of what really happened in 1888? Why not study each major doctrine and see if it is true or false, and then make any necessary corrections? Why do they chase irrelvant diversions, pretending they are a "big deal" when they are not? Spectrum should promote genuine and serious Adventist Reform, not censor and silence it, replacing it with worthless diversions and false promises.
Spectrum Gives False Hope
Spectrum claims it gives “hope” to the Adventist Community, but on what basis do they make this audacious claim, which is nothing more than a ploy to raise money under false pretenses?
Chuck Scriven says: When you make a gift to Spectrum, you touch off — hope.
Tom Norris replies: It is more honest to say: “those that support Spectrum, support censorship, double-talk, and a manipulated agenda that enables Adventism to remain in a dysfunctional, wretched condition.”
Where is the “hope”?
While Spectrum may have played a recognizable role in the modern Advent movement, it has been a failing one. Whatever contributions this Journal may have made over the past 45 years, it made no difference. Adventism has self-destructed during this time period for all to see. And it is not going to be repaired and rebuilt by double-talk, censorship, and manipulation of the discussion. Sorry, but Spectrum is on a false, hopeless path.
Let all understand that the Advent Movement in North America is decimated. Their once credible theology has been reduced to cultic nonsense and fiction. Thus the 21st century SDA’s are only a shadow of their former, vibrant self. The Advent Movement is dying right in front of our eyes. This is a crisis that needs answers, not another 45 years of self-serving liberal chatter from the church’s privileged and pampered elites.
What accomplishments does the self-satisfied Spectrum have to brag about? They have failed for 45 years to solve the serious theological issues that are destroying the Advent Movement, and it seems in hindsight that they were never really trying. Which means, they must be part of the problem, which even today, they cannot clearly articulate, much less solve.
Spectrum failed to slow, much less stop the meltdown of the Advent Movement. It is obvious after 45 years, that this liberal Journal has no answers or solutions. But yet, they feel justified to silence and censor others who do offer progressive, credible solutions. Strange.
Just think about it; over 10 million baptized SDA’s left the church while Spectrum was supposedly promoting open minded solutions and acting as a “beacon” for the Adventist Community. Where are these proposed solutions? Where have they made a difference? Only in their own minds have they made a difference.
Spectrum is part of the problem. They needs to repent for their endless double-talk and manipulation of the issues, which includes this very disrespectful and condescending policy of censoring anyone that challenges their point of view. Spectrum is not an honest or open publication as they pretend; it has never been an agent for serious Gospel Reform within Adventism. The sad record speaks for itself.
Today, as the world moves ever closer to an apocalyptic conclusion, millions are turning away from Adventist doctrine and theology like never before, making it impossible for the church to grow. This explains why the Internet is full of angry, former SDA’s, warning all away from the confusion and double-talk of Adventism. Such a situation underscores the failure of Spectrum, as well as the Review and AToday, all of which promote views that cannot be credibly defended.
Spectrum, with its' push for pluralism and liberalism, has little to offer except the latest titillation about “alternative sexualities” and other minor issues, which they try to make look important. Their content is unfocused, trite, and diversionary, even as their censorship is dishonest and heavy handed, calculated to stop genuine Gospel discussion and block serious, necessary reform.
Spectrum is out of ideas. It is not open to any perspective but their own dysfunctional, liberal confusion, which is why they do not allow freedom of thought or speech, much less from those who want to promote genuine Adventist Reform. They are progressive wolves in sheep’s clothing, working, not for Adventist Reform, but on behalf of the dishonest hierarchy that is the source of the problem.
Spectrum said: “Because the mission of Spectrum Magazine is community through conversation, we invite participation of all readers in a respectful manner.”
Tom Norris replied: Propaganda is not to be confused with truth. Spectrum manipulates the discussion and censors those, like Tom Norris of Adventist Reform, who criticize the hierarchy and their many false doctrines and for their ongoing publishing fraud in the White Estate. Spectrum defends the corruption in the church and turns away from the very issues it should be making public.
Spectrum has made it clear by their obsession with censorship, that they have not “invited” everyone to participate. Why? Because they are not having an open or honest discussion as they would have the community believe. Rather, they are deceivers that have no serious reform agenda, as they dishonestly claim. Nor do they seek any such agenda from those that have it. Beware religious deceivers.
In conclusion, Spectrum needs to stop misleading its readers by pretending that it is open to Adventist Reform when it is not. If Chuck Scriven wants to be taken seriously about the reforming role of Spectrum, then he should:
1) Stop censoring the discussion, and
2) Provide a regular section to promote the discussion of Adventist Reform
It is time for all those in leadership positions to stop being so dishonest and controlling. If the Advent Movement is to survive, it must honestly face up to the real issues and stop living in denial and delusion.
The Adventist Community must focus on genuine Gospel Reform and the rebranding of SDA doctrine and mission. If the leaders continue to mislead and double-talk, refusing to face up to the real issues, then the Advent Movement will continue its’ collapse into religious confusion and irrelevancy.
Is anyone listening?
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform
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