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SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
This thread is for those that SUPPORT the traditional, 7th day Sabbath of the SDA's. This is their chance to try and refute the Gospel Sabbath, as defined by Adventist Reform.
It is not for those anti-Sabbatarian that have embraced the confusion of NCT, and think there is no weekly Sabbath for the Church. There are other threads where they have made their points,- and lost the debate.
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=787
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=830
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=466
This thread is for SDA’s to try and show the superiority of their OC Sabbath doctrine, even as they try refuting the active, NC Sabbath that is taught in the Gospels. It is a pro-Sabbatarian debate as opposed to the more typical anti-Sabbatarian version.
Here is the SDA view of the Sabbath:
20. SDA Sabbath:
The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation.
The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath.
The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom.
The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts.
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html
Tom said: The SDA’s have the most invested in their doctrine of the Sabbath, which they support by their confused view of the Two Covenants and the Moral Law. The Sabbath is their primary doctrine, even part of their name. It defines how they view salvation, and underscores their gross legalism.
Here is their view of the Moral Law:
19. Law of God:
The great principles of God's law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God's love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age.
These precepts are the basis of God's covenant with His people and the standard in God's judgment. Through the agency of the Holy Spirit they point out sin and awaken a sense of need for a Saviour. Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments.
This obedience develops Christian character and results in a sense of well-being. It is an evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow men. The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness.
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html
Tom said: The SDA’s teach that the church is bound by the Sabbath of Moses, even as the fruit of the Gospel is Law keeping. They are great Judaizers. This is because they don’t understand the Gospel, so they naturally reject the Gospel Sabbath, just like the Jews.
Let’s see if the SDA’s can do any better than the anti-Sabbatarians at refuting the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath as defined by Adventist Reform?
ENTER Bill Sorenson, a Traditional SDA. No doubt he will show us why the Reformed Gospel Sabbath is wrong. Let’s see how he does?
BILL SAID: Tom, your error is just a little more subtle than a blatant dispensationalist. The fact is this, there is no "gospel" Sabbath as opposed to the "law" Sabbath.
The "gospel" Sabbath and the "law" Sabbath are one and the same thing. The bible Sabbath must always be viewed by way of law and gospel. Not one or the other.
In Tom's view, he separates law and gospel in a non-reformational scenario that is more akin to despensationalism.
In historic Protestantism, law and gospel always work together to make up a complete whole. It is not biblical to play off one against the other.
To define each function is necessary to avoid legalism and/or antinomianism. But you never divorce the two concepts with the idea we are now under a "gospel" Sabbath and not a "law" Sabbath.
The "day" aspect of the Sabbath is especially connected to the idea of law and accountability as God defines the terms and perimeters of how to keep the Sabbath holy.
The gospel especially gives us the complete motive to do what God says and it is the "spirit" of the Sabbath, based on love and trust.
Thus, in Protestantism, spirit and form always agree and cannot be separated except for the purpose of defining how each aspect works.
Those who attack EGW always end up attacking Protestantism and eventually the bible.
Bill Sorensen, for the SDA Sabbath
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Tom said: Is anyone convinced? Did he make a good case for the SDA Sabbath? Did he refute the Gospel Sabbath?
Let’s examine this post and see if the OC Sabbath of the SDA’s can defeat the NC Sabbath?
SDA’s Defend the OC Sabbath!
Sooner or later, some confused TSDA was going to try and attack the Gospel Sabbath. How could they not? These two Sabbaths are great competitors,- and enemies. And they have been so from the very first Sabbath of Jesus’ ministry.
Every week of Jesus ministry became another battle between the OC and NC Sabbath, so it makes sense that as the Gospel emerges in the last days, so too this epic and little known Sabbatarian struggle that is recorded in all four Gospels.
The Sabbath is the most prominent and important doctrine for any SDA. It must be defended or the 3rd Angels Message is ruined. It is the most visible and obvious doctrine for the SDA’s; one which sets them apart from all others.
While the SDA’s have failed miserably to defend tithe and the IJ, as well as their fictionalized story about Ellen White, let’s see how well they do at protecting their OC Sabbath?
Let’s also see if they can score any points against the Gospel Sabbath, which is the mortal enemy of their Sabbath doctrine? In other words, the Gospel Sabbath and the SDA version are mutually exclusive doctrines. Only one of them is correct, meaning the other is a fraud. So this is a Sabbatarian battle to the death. Only one doctrine can win.
No doubt these pro Sabbatarians have great theological insight about the Sabbath, with many deep passages of scripture to share. After all, they have been observing and promoting the Sabbath for a lifetime, surly they must be experts by now?
But there is a risk for the SDA’s. If they can’t do it, (and they cannot), then this is the end of the 3rd Angels Message, (which it is.) If the SDA Sabbath falls, so too the SDA’s, (unless they repent and reform).
I predict that any such attempt to refute the genuine NC Sabbath, by the Sabbatarians, will fall flat, just like the lame attempts by the anti-Sabbatarians. They are both very wrong.
The Collapse of the OC Sabbath
In hindsight, Glacier View, and the schism it caused, was a great blow to Traditional Adventism. The church has never been the same since the exile of Dr. Ford, even as the doctrine of the IJ became ignored and downplayed by those that stayed behind.
Failing to refute Dr. Ford, the church leaders introduced a policy of “pluralism” to deal with the confusion caused by IJ. At least they still had the Sabbath doctrine. Not even Dr. Ford refuted the 7th day Sabbath, even though many, if not most, others rejected it and turned to Sunday.
Should the SDA Sabbath also fail, as the IJ has already done, so too does Traditional Adventism and the 3rd Angels Message. Thus forcing a paradigm change for all to see. So this Sabbath debate is very critical to the SDA’s.
Today, we are witnessing the end of an era and the clarification of a new path for the Advent Movement; one that leads to the completion of “Sabbath Reform,” and to forward progression within the Adventist Apocalyptic.
All SDA’s should be glad that there is a genuine path to follow, and that Dr. Ford stood up to tell the truth about the Gospel, the NC Sabbath, and church history.
Bill, the TSDA said: Tom, your error is just a little more subtle than a blatant dispensationalist.
Tom said: Ha! So the “Gospel Sabbath” has “subtle error”? I bet it is so “subtle” that you will not be able to articulate it? Let’s see if you can clarify what you think is error?
No doubt the TSDA’s are going to have great problems with the “Gospel” part of this Sabbath doctrine. They only know the Sabbath from a LAW perspective.
Law, law, law is all they want to understand. (Just like the Jews). The SDA’s live for the OC Sabbath. They have never heard of the Gospel Sabbath, until now. It is very new to them, and all others. No doubt they are stunned, as they should be.
Bill said: The fact is this, there is no "gospel" Sabbath as opposed to the "law" Sabbath.
Tom said: Ha! This is too funny, and sad. So this is the “subtle error;” that there is no Gospel Sabbath? Not very subtle. To simply deny this new doctrine, without any evidence, is hardly convincing.
Behold the TSDA’s, as they cringe and pull back from the very mention of the word “Gospel” as it relates to the Sabbath. They have never made such a connection. They only know the Law based Sabbath. So they DENY there is a Gospel Sabbath.
So too did the Pharisees!
The SDA’s do not understand the Gospel Sabbath, nor do they have any plans to consider such heresy. They can only support what they know, and all they know is the Law based Sabbath of the 4th Commandment. They don’t know the Gospel Sabbath or the teachings of Christ about the Sabbath and salvation. They are great Judaizers.
Besides, they teach that our Sabbath keeping will be examined in the IJ to see who is good enough to be saved. The Gospel Sabbath makes this view irrelevant and wrong. So they naturally hate anything that would go against this legalistic and cultic teaching of the IJ.
The SDA’s love the OC Sabbath of Moses. Of course this is the same position as the Pharisees who opposed Christ, which is why it is so easy to understand who is correct and who is not when it comes to the present Sabbath debate.
The Gospel Sabbath is an easy doctrine to understand, once the Gospel is understood and the NT read without prejudice.
Let all understand that the SDA’s have embraced the WRONG Sabbath and the WRONG Gospel. Adventist Reform promotes the correct view of both. The fact that it is essentially unknown, and revolutionary, is a bonus that is beside the point.
Bill said: The "gospel" Sabbath and the "law" Sabbath are one and the same thing.
Tom said: So if there was a Gospel Sabbath, it is in name only? Because the SDA’s claim it is still the Law based Sabbath of Moses?
Ha! All these Pharisees know is the OC Sabbath of the Moral Law. The Gospel Sabbath, which is contained in the Gospels and is part of the “Law of Christ,” is UNKNOWN to them and everyone else as well.
Time for Laodicea to wake up and repent of their false Gospel and mythical Sabbath. Time for the SDA’s to lead the pack and make the first move. They too have the wrong Sabbath.
It is a big mistake to think that there is no difference between the OC Sabbath and the NC Sabbath. They are very different. Anyone who says otherwise, is very confused about the Two Covenants and the Gospel.
The TSDA’s have never understood the law or the Gospel correctly. That is why 1888 and Glacier View were such disasters for the Denomination. And why they must confess and reform.
For those, like the RCC and the SDA’s, that have blended and combined the Law with the Gospel, as opposed to keeping them separate, the OC Sabbath makes a lot of sense. (The Sunday Sabbath also represents the OC mind set, because it too prohibits work on this day. Hence the Blue Laws.)
So the 7th day Sabbath of the SDA’s is just as wrong as the RC and Protestant Sunday doctrine that also prohibits work on the 1st day. Neither of these are the correct NC Sabbath.
Moreover, if the OC and NC Sabbath are the same, why the Sabbath debates in the Gospels?
If there were not two different views of the Sabbath being debated in the Gospels, then what was going on? Were these debates not about theology and the doctrine of the Sabbath?
Did Jesus and the Pharisees have the SAME Sabbath doctrine? If so, why the debate?
Why were they so mad at him, and he at them? Because they had the same of the Sabbath? NO. Because they were so very different and mutually exclusive.
Bill said: The bible Sabbath must always be viewed by way of law and gospel. Not one or the other.
Tom said: Ha! Listen to the SDA’s elevate the Law over Gospel. They are such fools. Their own words condemn them as great legalists.
Bill, who are you to correct Jesus? On what authority? Uriah Smith?
Did Jesus teach that the Sabbath must be “viewed by way of Law?” No. This is what the Pharisees said!
Jesus teaches that the Sabbath law has no power over those who follow him. Thus he gives all an EXCLUSION and EXEMPTION from working on the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment. By his own authority and that of his Father.
Why does he do this? Because he is “viewing the Sabbath by way of the Gospel.” He is subordinating the law to the Gospel in a very public and tangible manner.
Jesus viewed the Sabbath FROM A GOSPEL PERSPECTIVE. Which is very different from how the Jews viewed this doctrine. This is why there was an ongoing Sabbath debate taking place between Jesus and the Jews that led directly to his death. Those that say otherwise, do not know how to read the scriptures.
Matt. 13:14 “In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, ‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
1Tim. 1:7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
Bill said: In Tom's view, he separates law and gospel in a non-reformational scenario that is more akin to despensationalism.
Tom said: It is “Jesus view” of the Sabbath that matters. Not mine, or even those of the reformers.
Jesus is the one that teaches a revolutionary, NC Sabbath doctrine for the church, too bad the SDA’s cannot understand it, and at this point, neither can anyone else.
Let’s face facts: The SDA’s are like the Pharisees. This is also what Ellen White said over and over. The SDA’s are following the unbelieving Jews. This is why they have the WRONG 7th day Sabbath and why they don’t want to understand the NC Sabbath.
Had the 1888 debates been fair and honest, the SDA’s would have understood the Gospel Sabbath in Battle Creek. But their leaders refused to embrace the Gospel, or admit to any error about their view of the Law and the Two Covenants. Disaster resulted. And so it will again if they are so foolish to reject the present call to repent.
Look around! The SDA’s are dying because of their awful theology and worthless doctrine. They have gone corrupt and evil for all to see. Just like the 1st century Jews that killed Christ.
"There is danger that when the Lord shall send his people special light, they will also place themselves on the side of the Pharisees." Ellen White HM, Sept. 1, 1894.
"We see that we are in no better condition than the Jewish people." 1SAT 95.
"Satan is working that the history of the Jewish nation may be repeated in the experience of those who claim to believe present truth." 2SM 111.
"The same spirit of resistance is to be found even among those who claim to believe the truth for this time." 9MR 183.
Woe is Adventism if they do not stop acting like the Jews that killed Christ.
Woe to all that refuse to repent and embrace the Gospel Sabbath. They are doomed.
Bill said: In historic Protestantism, law and gospel always work together to make up a complete whole.
Tom said: Stop the double-talk about the Gospel Sabbath and drop your pretensions, as if you understand the Reformation. You do not understand nor speak for the Reformers or anyone else except the confused TSDA’s.
No SDA understands the law or the Gospel correctly, much less the Reformation or the Gospel Sabbath, which they never knew existed. So you are shooting blanks wildly into the air. Luther clearly condemns the SDA “schoolmaster” Sabbath, even as his Gospel writings were the cause of the 1888 debate.
Bill said: It is not biblical to play off one against the other.
Tom said: Who are you to correct Jesus and deny the Gospel record? He promoted the NC Sabbath in front of all those that were OC minded, and thus stunned the Jews. He deliberately defied their OC Sabbath and promoted a very different Sabbath for all to see. Over and over and over again…
This is why there was always a Sabbath debate surrounding Jesus. He started reforming and changing the Sabbath from the very beginning of his ministry, as Mark makes very clear.
Note how soon the Gospel Sabbath is introduced.
Mark 1:21 They *went into Capernaum; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach.
Mark 1:22 They were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Mark 1:23 Just then there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him.”
Mark 1:28 Immediately the news about Him spread everywhere into all the surrounding district of Galilee.
Mark 2:23 And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain.
Mark 2:24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”
Mark 2:25 And He *said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry;
Mark 2:26 how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?”
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Mark 3:1 He entered again into a synagogue; and a man was there whose hand was withered.
Mark 3:2 They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him.
So Jesus did exactly what the TSDA’s think is wrong. Which means they would have rejected his Gospel and his view of the Sabbath. This is because they think like the Pharisees. Which is what they are.
The SDA’s do not understand Christ or his teaching, much less his Gospel Sabbath. This is the problem with all the SDA’s, especially the legalistic minded TSDA’s.
Their minds are as warped and wrong, as were the Jews.
Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath was a public challenge to the OC Sabbath law, as well as an affront to the authority of the religious leaders. It was such a different doctrine from what the Jews taught and followed, that it seemed heretical and impossible.
Which is why they killed him. Jesus made it clear that there is a better, NC Sabbath for those that want to follow the Gospel of God.
Those that claim to follow Christ, must pay attention to his Gospel teachings, which features his Reformed, active, 7th day Sabbath. Those that want to follow Moses, and think the OC must be protected from the NC, need not bother. They are as lost as were the Jews that rejected Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath.
Bill said: To define each function is necessary to avoid legalism and/or antinomianism. But you never divorce the two concepts with the idea we are now under a "gospel" Sabbath and not a "law" Sabbath.
Tom said: Let all see how the SDA’s think. Their own words expose them as great Pharisees.
The SDA’s want to be UNDER the Law of Moses. They love the OC Sabbath. Even as they try to hide their legalism and pretend they support the Gospel, which they do not even understand. They are great fools for all to see.
While the Gospel Sabbath is understandably shocking to the legalistic minds of the SDA’s, it is clear that Jesus teaches a very different, 7th day Sabbath for the church.
Bill, you have not offered any evidence for your position. You are flailing around for all to see. Just like the Pharisees!
Bill said: The "day" aspect of the Sabbath is especially connected to the idea of law and accountability as God defines the terms and perimeters of how to keep the Sabbath holy.
Tom said: The 7th “day” can be the only “day” for the Sabbath. This is very true.
The 1st day of the week is not connected to the Law or to anything in Judaism, much less to the Sabbath. The Sunday Sabbath is an anti-Semitic fraud. The SDA’s are correct on this point.
Regardless, Jesus clearly and repeatedly teaches a very different Sabbath for his followers, even as he declares himself to be the Lord of this active, NC Sabbath, which he says, God taught him.
It is very strange for anyone to try and deny what is so clear, obvious, and irrefutable.
Bill, are we each reading a different NT? Doesn’t your Bible contain the active Sabbath teaching of Jesus? Mine sure does!
Those that claim to follow Christ, must also embrace his very different, Gospel Sabbath, which he claims God told him to teach. If you don’t think he was telling the truth, then Jesus is a fraud and the Gospel worthless.
The SDA’s have embraced the Sabbath of the Pharisees, not what Jesus taught. No surprise here. They love the OC Sabbath with its sunset calendars and its many rules and regulations.
Don’t do this, don’t go here, don’t work, don’t play, and don’t buy food on the Sabbath or eat at a restaurant, or watch TV, etc. etc. (unless you are in a small, special class, that gets to work on the Sabbath). But do pay tithe on the Sabbath. They love this great Sabbath activity that has brought in BILLIONS of dollars into their mythical storehouse.
Such Sabbath rules, (on the right day), makes the SDA’s feel superior to the Sunday Christians, and thus their very self-worth as a denomination is based on the assumption that their Sabbath is better, and more correct, than all others.
This is a false assumption.
The SDA Sabbath, which is the OC version that Christ’s ENEMIES defended, is the WRONG Sabbath. Correct day, but wrong doctrine for the church.
Sorry. Don’t shoot the messenger. The SDA’s have failed to complete their mission of “Sabbath Reform,” and now it will go forward without them.
Bill said: The gospel especially gives us the complete motive to do what God says and it is the "spirit" of the Sabbath, based on love and trust.
Tom said: So the Gospel gives us the “motive” to obey the Moral law? And the Spirit gives us the power? Hardly.
This is what they taught in Battle Creek, and after 1888, this view of the Gospel was correctly condemned by Ellen White and others. But Uriah Smith never repudiated his legalism and this is what the SDA’s still teach to this very day.
Even though Smith was fired from the Review at the end of his life for refusing to repent for 1888, the Takoma Park leaders covered up the debate and pretended that Smith’s views were correct and that Ellen White supported him when the opposite is the case.
The SDA OC Sabbath fits very well with the IJ, which is an investigation to see who is a good Sabbath Keeper and who is not. Those that work on the Sabbath, or think Sunday is the Sabbath, will not pass the IJ. They will be lost.
Thus Uriah Smith could speak of Our Righteousness. By which he meant our character, our Sanctification, and our OC Sabbath Keeping.
Smith NEVER understood the Gospel or the NC Sabbath, and thus he too would be stunned that there could be a Gospel Sabbath as we are discussing. It never entered his twisted, legalistic mind.
The Gospel Sabbath, while obviously anchored to the 4th Commandment, is above the law. Thus Jesus demonstrates, not only his power and authority to create a new Sabbath doctrine for the church, but that he is greater than the Law. The Gospel trumps law, and this NEW SABBATH underscores this salvific fact.
Unlike the OC Sabbath, the Gospel Sabbath also reflects the Priesthood of all Believers, even as it honors the ancient Sabbath and acknowledges the Moral Law.
The NC Sabbath is a direct assault on the, non-working, OC Sabbath, which was mediated by the Levitical Priesthood, who alone had been granted an EXCLUSION from the prohibition against work on the 7th day.
Jesus horrified the Law obsessed Jewish leaders because he was extending this priestly exclusion to all. He was doing away with the Levites and reforming OC Judaism without their permission. He was making the Sabbath into a joyful, guiltless doctrine that celebrated the Gospel, with its’ promise of Eternal Life and rest.
The Pharisees, not only rejected the Gospel, but they also wanted to keep full control of the people. They were outraged at such Gospel reforms. Thus they were unteachable and they never understood the Gospel, much less the NC Sabbath. They refused to believe, just like the SDA’s in 1888, 1980, and today.
Listen to the post 1888 Ellen White slam the SDA leaders for their rejection of the Gospel:
"As professed followers of Christ, we have much to learn. There is with many an icy chilliness, a reserve like that of the Pharisees, that must be broken down. They are not willing to become learners, but, like the Pharisees, desire to be dictators, teachers.
God sent his Son to give his people a better knowledge of the truth, to show them the best way to help their fellow-men. But the Pharisees refused to receive the divine instruction.
They thought that Christ was too liberal. His ways did not agree with theirs; and instead of seeking to come into harmony with Christ, they sought to bring Christ into harmony with them.
While he differed from them so widely, his influence would, they thought, lessen theirs, and would counteract their teachings. In order to carry out their own purposes, they set themselves in opposition to Christ, and thus brought darkness upon themselves." GW92, 320.
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The Gospel Sabbath represents an end to OC Adventism, as well as the emergence of NC Adventism. Which is bad news for the SDA’s, because all they want to know is the former error. Like the Pharisees, they have never understood nor embraced the Gospel or the Sabbath correctly, nor do they have any intentions of doing so.
The SDA’s ARE the modern day Pharisees. They like the divided and confused status quo of Adventism, where they are in control of everything. Any that threaten their tithe paying, OC Empire, will be slandered and exiled, like Dr. Ford. They are as unteachable and arrogant as were the 1st century Pharisees, and thus the same fate awaits them.
Let all treat the SDA’s as great Judaizers and Gospel haters. Shame on them. And double shame on the TSDA’s, the wicked children of Uriah Smith.
Bill said: Thus, in Protestantism, spirit and form always agree and can not be separated except for the purpose of defining how each aspect works.
Tom said: Ha! Is this your big finish against the Gospel Sabbath? A bunch of meaningless jargon?
Do you think you have scored any points against the Gospel Sabbath or made any for the OC Sabbath? Hardly.
You cite no text, church history, or commentaries, nor have you refuted any of the many points that stand in support of the Gospel Sabbath. Your defense of the OC Sabbath position is worthless, incoherent, double-talk. Sorry.
Go find Goldstein, the SDA Jew. He supports the OC Sabbath as much as the Pharisees ever did. Perhaps he can help you craft a credible defense?
However, judging from his past inability to defend TA, I doubt he has the nerve or the evidence to come online and enter this discussion. He knows he cannot win this debate, but you and Bob, have yet to learn this lesson.
Let all understand, the much-vaunted SDA Sabbath is as doomed as were Jews that refused to follow Christ. Which is why they SDA’s must confess and repent now, before it is too late.
Bill, you have not come close to defending the OC Sabbath, much less refuting the NC version! Nor will you ever come close to defending the many false doctrines of TA, like tithe, food laws, the IJ, and now the OC Sabbath.
Traditional Adventism is a bad joke that only gets worse with every retelling. It cannot save anyone, nor can it be saved.
Bill the Pharisee said: Those who attack EGW always end up attacking Protestantism and eventually the bible.
Tom said: What is this nonsense and slander? Who has attacked Ellen White? Not me! She would rejoice at the Gospel Sabbath, instantly realizing that it represents the completion of Sabbath Reform.
Ellen White was not an expert on the Sabbath. In fact, even though she had spiritual gifts, she was a Sunday keeper for many years. Then she repented and switched to the 7th day, thanks to Bates.
But even then she was not correct, because she observed the Sabbath from 6 pm to 6 pm for about 10 years until J. N. Andrews pointed out this error. Then she revised her view, again, and switched to Sundown to sundown.
Ellen White has a clear track record of changing and revising her view of the Sabbath, even she pushed hard for another revision during the 1888 debates. But it never happened because the SDA Pharisees, led by Uriah Smith, refused to make any revision to the Sabbath, or the Two Covenants or the Gospel, or anything.
The SDA leaders loudly claimed that thy had a fully correct and unchangeable position on the Sabbath, but Ellen White knew better, even as she condemned Smith for his dishonest debating tactics and incorrect views. She called him a Pharisee and warned that the SDA’s were repeating the same mistakes as the 1st century Jews.
The Great SDA Sabbath Debate
It is easy to see how Ellen White would view this discussion about the Sabbath. Why? Because the 1888 debates were all about the Sabbath. She was there, right in the middle of it, so we can see how she reacted then, and apply it to our discussion today.
Few people understand that when Waggoner REJECTED Smith’s view of the Law in Galatians, (which he learned from Luther), he was directly attacking the Sabbath doctrine of the SDA’s.
THIS is why Uriah Smith, and the other leaders, became so outraged and upset. They did not expect, nor did they appreciate, one of their own making such an anti- law, anti-Sabbatarian attack on the greatest doctrine of the SDA’s.
However, when they asked Ellen White to silence Waggoner, she refused, even as she pushed the debate forward and out into the open for everyone to see. She wanted the church to study the issues, not censor them.
Such a move stunned and further angered the leaders, literally causing George Butler, the President, to have a nervous breakdown. He was so upset about this confusion that he could not even attend the 1888 General Conference.
Thus an epic Sabbath debate was unleashed within the Denomination that is not well known or understood today, thanks to the dishonest White Estate. This old debate, that was so carefully covered up and hidden away in Takoma Park, is still causing great damage and schism today. It can only be stopped when the SDA’s stop fighting the Gospel and repent.
The heart of the 1888 debate was the definition of the Sabbath. If the SDA’s had this doctrine wrong, then their whole mission could be in jeopardy, and they no longer have a reason to exist.
To matter worse, the Sunday Reform Movement was close to obtaining a National Sunday Law, which the SDA’s had long predicted. Thus their eschatology was also wrapped up in the outcome of any Sabbath debate.
So the stakes could not be higher, which is why the leaders reacted so vehemently against Waggoner’s view of the Sabbath. There was great cause for alarm.
Missed Opportunity for Sabbath Reform
In hindsight, the Battle Creek SDA’s missed a golden opportunity to revise and complete their doctrine of the Sabbath.
In fact, because the leaders rejected the Gospel, and clung to the OC Sabbath, many that had embraced Waggoner’s view had no choice but to reject the SDA Sabbath. As a result, many streamed out of the denomination, including those who were pro-Sabbatarian, like Kellogg, whose wife was a life long SD Baptist.
(Note the parallel of Dr. Ford with Dr. Waggoner. Glacier View was a repeat of 1888, including the tragic aftermath.)
Had the Battle Creek SDA’s been able to repent of their OC Sabbath and embrace the Gospel Sabbath, they would have baffled their theological enemies and stunned the world.
Why? Because at this time, all the churches had joined together to promote the “sacredness” of the Sunday Sabbath. The SDA’s only protested because they had the wrong DAY, not because they ALSO had the wrong view of how to define and act on the Gospel Sabbath.
So the SDA’s only made headlines for the OC, 7th day, Sabbath, but not for the Gospel Sabbath, which was never developed.
http://www.libertymagazine.org/index.php?id=1605
The SDA’s managed to get an exclusion for themselves placed into the National Sunday law, (which never passed.) Too bad they were not smart enough to explain that every church in the land had not only the WRONG DAY, but also the WRONG GOSPEL and the WRONG view of the NC Sabbath.
Such a Sabbath bombshell would not only make the quest for Blue Laws appear needless and absurd, but also go directly against the very Gospel that has been used to endorse and galvanize the pro Sunday forces.
In short, the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath would have upended the debate and sent it in a new direction, amazing all in the process.
Both Congress, and the County, would have been stunned as the SDA’s rolled out the 7th day, active, Gospel Sabbath. It would have made big headlines, because the (Sunday) Sabbath was a hot topic in all the churches and the press. It was the equivalent to how the 20th century conservatives viewed abortion, and thus these 19th century religious zealots demanded laws to keep Sunday holy and free from work.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ay-Law.htm
Today, the Gospel Sabbath is still amazing and shocking to all ears. Not only because it is unknown and so different from all present traditions, but because it also represents the theological genius (and authority) of Christ and his Gospel.
The Gospel Sabbath is a perfect solution to the long running Sabbath debate, harmonizing the Two Covenants and underscoring their Semitic nature. It upholds the Moral law, even as it correctly subordinates law to the Gospel, through the exclusion that comes through the Priesthood of all believers.
The Gospel Sabbath condemns all other Sabbath doctrines, and the false Gospels upon which they rest. Including, and especially, the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath, for which they must repent.
Let ALL in the SDA Community run away from the OC Sabbath, tithe, and the IJ, and REPENT of all such false and wrong doctrines.
It is time to stop allowing the wolves to lead the sheep. It is time to understand the Gospel and the Reformed, NC, 7th day Sabbath.
It is time to move forward within the Adventist Apocalyptic from the failed 3rd Angels Message to the 4th and last Message that is referenced in Rev 18.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for genuine Sabbath Reform
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Can you prove, Tom , that more than you hold this position of a Reformed Sabbath? I only run into it when you bring it forth.
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Bob2 said: Can you prove, Tom , that more than you hold this position of a Reformed Sabbath? I only run into it when you bring it forth.
Tom said: I did not invent the Gospel Sabbath. Nor am I the source for this 1st century doctrine. It is found in all four Gospels, proving that “others hold this position.”
I have “proved” that Jesus and the apostles teach the Reformed, 7th day, active Sabbath. No one has refuted this point. It is self evident from the record, at least for those that can honestly read the NT.
Thus, the Gospel Sabbath is the real Lord’s Day for the church. It is not Sunday, or the OC Sabbath of Moses and the SDA’s.
Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day
Those that follow the true Spirit, and the real Lord Jesus, will understand the Gospel Sabbath and rejoice.
John 4:21 Jesus *said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
John 4:22 “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
John 4:23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
John 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
The Gospel Sabbath is great truth. It is a hallmark doctrine of Christ. Who claimed he learned it from God his father. Those who repudiate it, are not only dishonoring Jesus, but also God.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
John 5:20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.
John 5:21 “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
John 5:22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
John 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Those who reject the Gospel Sabbath, are “dishonoring” heaven. They are deaf and blind to Jesus teaching. They will not pass the Judgment nor find Eternal Life. They have spurned the Gospel and mocked God with their own false interpretations.
Let all understand there is great danger for any that refuse the Gospel Sabbath. It proves that they are not following the genuine Christ, nor are they saved. They have misunderstood and rejected the Gospel, even as they are blind to this fatal fact.
All should be very careful how they approach the Gospel Sabbath, especially the SDA’s. They should be the first to understand this new doctrine for the church and REPENT. But like the Jews, they hate the Gospel and the active, Gospel Sabbath. Pity.
Thread for Sabbatarians:
Bob, this thread is not for those, like you, that think there is no Sabbath for the church. It is for those that have embraced the 7th day Sabbath, and think it their duty to proclaim the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment to all.
This thread is for the SDA’s to prove that their OC Sabbath is valid, and the NC Sabbath (as promoted by Adventist Reform) is wrong. You have your own anti-Sabbatarian section, (where you have failed to make your case), but this section is for the Sabbatarians.
Why not sit back and see how they do?
So far, Bill the TSDA, has not been able to defend his Sabbath position, much less refute the Gospel Sabbath. Perhaps some others will do better. But I doubt it. The Gospel Sabbath is no joke. It is solid and clear, well grounded on the teachings of Jesus in all four Gospels.
However, the SDA’s usually do not give up so easily, much less about the Sabbath. So others will try. But they will also all flail around for all to see.
No doubt many SDA’s will be amazed at the Gospel Sabbath, even angry at this strange, counter-intuitive, doctrine. (Just like in the 1st century.) No wonder Ellen White always compared the SDA’s with the Jews. It was not a compliment but a warning, which they have not heeded.
Let all understand; the Gospel Sabbath is anchored in all four Gospels. It cannot be refuted by anyone that honestly reads the NT and understands the Gospel or the Two Covenants.
Those that claim to follow Christ, must also embrace his Sabbath teachings, no others. Those today that do not embrace this doctrine, are only pretending to follow him. They are blind to the Gospel.
John 7:16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
John 7:17 “If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.
Note Jesus words, which were spoken following a Sabbath debate, where Jesus healed the blind. The OC Sabbatarians did not approve or understand the Gospel, or the Gospel Sabbath. Jesus words are for all that refuse his Reformed Sabbath; especially for the SDA’s, which are so much like the Jews.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
Today, the SDA’s are not following the true Christ or his Gospel. They are as blind to truth as were the 1st century Jews. Thus they are thieves and robbers, trying to steal Eternal Life on their own sinful terms. They are stubborn and stupid sheep that have spurned the Good Shepherd.
John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Those that follow the true Christ, will also understand and embrace his Reformed, Gospel Sabbath. Those that follow a fraud, will be easily exposed for all to see. Thus the Sabbath doctrine is a quick test to see who is following the Good Sheperd and who is not.
No wonder the Laodicean Message is so damning to all? All have the wrong Gospel and the wrong Sabbath. All are blindly following a false Christ down a fatal path, including and especially the SDA’s.
When will the wretched SDA’s wake up and repent?
Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that dthe shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
When will they realize that they have played the role of the unbelieving Jews that killed Christ? If they do not soon repent of their OC Sabbath and their false, tithe paying, Sabbath keeping Gospel, they are doomed. Just like the Jews.
Matt. 13:15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Maybe I am dull, but I don't get what you are differing with the traditional Sabbathkeeping. How about the short version, succinct and to the point. One paragraph, a record for you to strive for???
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Tom
The jews are not doomed.In fact Paul says "ALL Israel will be saved".He also says "that God has not cast away Israel"
Anti Semitism has no place in the true church of God.
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Bob2 said: Maybe I am dull, but I don't get what you are differing with the traditional Sabbath keeping. How about the short version, succinct and to the point. One paragraph, a record for you to strive for???
Tom said: After all this discussion about the Gospel Sabbath, you still don’t understand how to define or compare these two different Sabbaths?
I don’t understand how this is possible? Unless you are not reading the material?
I suggest that you go back a re-read this discussion with an open mind that tries to honestly process the material, rather than refute it. Such a change in attitude should solve the problem, unless too many years of SDA indoctrination has ruined your mind.
Why not go back and read your own threads that you started to (unsuccessfully) refute the Gospel Sabbath? Then move on to others in the Adventist Reform section.
At the end of such a review, you should be able understand the definition of the NC Sabbath, as well as the difference between the OC Sabbath, which it replaces. You may still not agree, but at least you should be able to understand the issues.
See the following threads:
Tom Norris' Reformed Sabbath - Unbiblical
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=787
SDA’s and the New Covenant
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=830
NCT and the Sabbath Question
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=466
The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=228
The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=242
All Must Repent
Those that want to find Gospel truth, must first let go of their errors. This was true in the 1st century and it is still true in the 21st. One cannot accept the Gospel and at the same time, be opposing it. All those that have embraced a false, anti-Gospel Sabbath must REPENT before they can go forward in truth.
Matt. 11:20 Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent.
This is why the preaching of the Gospel, including the Gospel Sabbath, is always accompanied with the call to REPENT. So it was in the beginning of the church, and so it still is. Those that refuse to repent, do not, and will not, believe the Gospel. This is why they are lost.
Matt. 3:2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
This is why the last church, the Laodicean Church, is also called to repent. Not just because they are sinners, but also because they are wrong about the Gospel and the Sabbath. Unless they admit this fact, they will never understand truth. This is the point of Repentance. It prepares the way for a person to accept the Gospel and thus be saved.
Luke 13:3 “… unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
For any in the last church to reach the correct state of Gospel understanding, as shown in Rev 18, they must first repent. That is what the LM explicitly says to the last church, meaning all denominations.
Any that want to understand the Gospel Sabbath must first come to the place where they can admit to being wrong about doctrine. They must repent, BEFORE they can embrace the correct Gospel, including the 7th day Gospel Sabbath.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
The SDA’s claim to be the ones to lead this final paradigm shift, which they called the Loud Cry of the 4th Angels Message. But they have turned their backs on the Gospel, just like the Jews, and for the very same reasons. So unless they repent of their legalism, they will never understand the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath. Just like the Jews!
Those that refuse to repent, will not be able to embrace the Gospel and thus they are lost. This is why it is so critical for the SDA Community to stop their double-talk and repent, SO THAT THEY CAN EMBRACE THE GENUINE GOSPEL, including the correct doctrine of the Sabbath, moving the church forward to the 4th Angels Message.
If the SDA’s don’t soon repent and embrace the Gospel, they will be lost, just like the 1st century Jews that they so closely resemble. At some point, their minds will become so warped that they can never understand correct doctrine. This may have already taken place with many, as evidenced by how dishonestly they deal with this public discussion about Adventist Reform.
The fact of the matter is that many will not admit error, for a variety of reasons. Pride, money, (employment), and the love of status motivate many in the church. The search for truth does not matter. These loyal and delusional types think it their duty to protect what has been put in place at all costs, because tradition trumps truth in their twisted minds.
Such a bad attitude prevents new light from penetrating their closed minds. Many soon lose their ability to comprehend the Word, even as they can no longer understand Gospel issues. They are blind and confused, by choice, and thus their sin remains. There is no remedy for those that refuse to admit their Gospel errors and repent. None.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
How to Understand the Gospel
No one can understand the Gospel unless they first repent of their many false views. This is why Jesus did not argue about the Gospel. He spoke with authority, which means he was not interested in what others had to say. His Gospel was not up for debate, people either embraced it or they did not. He was not going to change a single point, even if they tortured and killed him.
Mark 1:22 They were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority!
The Gospel is to be preached, not debated. While it is necessary to debate the critics, who often have vested, self-serving interests, Christ never made deals with his opponents or tried to find a middle ground on any point. He was not playing politics or trying to find a way to make everyone happy. People either embraced his Gospel or they did not.
Thus Jesus was a divider, not one who unites. There was no compromise, equivocation or middle ground with him.
Matt. 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Matt. 10:35 “For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
Matt. 10:36 and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
This is why the Gospel Story starts out with the demand for repentance. There was no room for debate about the merits of the OC or the need for Gospel Reform. It was time for the NC and that was that. Thus the Jews were called to repent and embrace the Gospel, or face the consequences for failing to do their duty.
Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
The Gospel, and the 7th day Gospel Sabbath, are not up for debate. The teachings of Jesus are what they are. And so too is the scriptural evidence upon which they are based. The fact that most are not ready for Gospel Reform is beside the point.
The Gospel, which featured the Reformed Sabbath under discussion, surprised the Jews. They were not prepared for this paradigm shift and thus they thought it something to be resisted and defeated. What a tragic mistake.
But guess what? The Laodiceans are also unaware of their wretched condition and they too are unprepared for Gospel Reform. Like the Jews, they too will be stunned by the preaching of the genuine Gospel, with its Reformed Sabbath and refutation of the leaders authority and doctrines.
After all, the Laodiceans have built up a great religious Empire, worth BILLIONS of $$$, and they are not going to let such wealth slip away. Just like the Jews.
By the 1st century, the Jews had developed their religion into a great business, and they did not appreciate anyone telling them they were wrong about the law or the Sabbath or anything, much less that their religious Empire was an affront to God and needed major reform. They were rich and successful, so why complain? They did not need any new doctrines. They had all the truth possible.
How tragic that the Jews did not know how poor they really were. How tragic that the SDA’s are mimicking their awful behavior and lack of faith.
Luke 6:24 “But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full.
Matt. 19:23 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Thus the Jews were a proto type of the Laodiceans who have also developed their religion into a great and profitable business for all to see. Both the Jews and the Laodiceans were very rich, which fact was used to prove that God was blessing them. Thus they did not need any more truth. They had it all. Just look around at all the large buildings…
Mark 12:41 And He sat down opposite the treasury, and began observing how the people were putting money into the treasury; and many rich people were putting in large sums.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
As far as the Jews were concerned, God had richly blessed his people; even as the Romans allowed Judaism to flourish, with its stunning and profitable Temple, which was a wonder of the world. But Jesus did not agree with their assessment of things. He hated that Judaism had become such big business, where money was exchanged for salvation and the highest bidder could purchase God’s favor. The Jews had become spiritually blind and naked, even as they refused to repent and be healed.
John 2:13 The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
John 2:14 And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables.
John 2:15 And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;
John 2:16 and to those who were selling the doves He said, “Take these things away; stop making My Father’s house a place of business.”
Today, the Laodiceans have followed the Jews by turning their religion into big business. Money is the most important thing for all churches today, while truth is whatever people want it to be. This is why it is so hard to reform the church today. The love of money blocks Gospel Reform, even as the leaders have gone corrupt for all to see.
The SDA’s, like the Jews, were also unprepared for the Gospel, as the sad history of 1888 shows. Like the Jews, they too rejected the Gospel and self-destructed as a result. Then they did it again, once in Takoma Park, in 1980. Those who embrace the OC do not like the NC. Thus the SDA’s prefer Moses to Christ, and the OC Sabbath to the Gospel Sabbath that Jesus teaches. They are much like the Jews. And like the Jews, they too have turned religion into a “place of business.” With their false doctrine of tithe and the OC Sabbath leading the way, making them rich. (Today the SDA church is valued at about $30 BILLION.)
It is a great mistake to judge any religion by its bank account. Jesus teaches that wealth is not salvific, and that the love of money is the root of all evil. The Jews were destroyed because their love of money trumped the Gospel. And so too will every denomination in Laodicea if they do not repent and embrace Gospel Reform.
1Tim. 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil,
James 5:1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you.
The Jews chose the “business” of religion over Gospel truth. Their leaders were more interested in the amount of tithe and offerings that flowed into their coffers than Eternal Life from Christ. Thus money became the real reason why Jesus had to be censored and killed. His new views would upset the profitable status quo, which would be very bad for the business of OC Judaism.
Luke 16:13 “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.”
Luke 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him.
Luke 16:15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.
The religious leaders did not want to understand Jesus, whose teachings overturned their entire priestly system. Rather, they choose to argue, question, and refute whatever he taught, -instead of repenting.
John 7:46 The officers answered, “Never has a man spoken the way this man speaks.”
John 7:47 The Pharisees then answered them, “You have not also been led astray, have you?
John 7:48 “No one of the rulers or Pharisees has believed in Him, has he?
John 7:49 “But this crowd which does not know the Law is accursed.”
The leaders liked their OC religion because it was making money. The Temple was a profitable, world-class attraction, and they had no intention of listening to anything that would undermine this great success in the name of God.
The more Jesus tried to explain the NC, and his very different Gospel Sabbath, they more the religious leaders argued and pretended they could not understand what he was saying or on whose authority it was based. They liked their law based, profitable religion where they were in charge. Why change a good thing?
Thus many leaders would not repent or believe, and they never intended to. From the start, they were intent on defending their own views, for their own, (short term) self-serving interests, and this is what they did. This is why the killed Christ.
John 4:48 So Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe.”
For those having a hard time understanding Adventist Reform, with its’ refutation of tithe, the IJ, and the OC Sabbath, here is the problem: They refuse to admit the possibility that their doctrines and traditions could be wrong. And when the evidence comes pouring in that tithe is not a true, and the IJ false, the leaders look the other way so as not to be persuaded by the facts. They love their OC, tithe paying, Sabbath keeping business of religion, which brings in BILLIONS of dollars.
So they “simply will not believe.”
Many keep asking for “signs” and proof, above and beyond what is necessary to establish correct doctrine. They say, “How could we be so wrong?” And then they conclude they are not wrong because there is not enough proof. Not even Jesus could make those that did not want to believe, believe.
John 2:18 The Jews then said to Him, “What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?”
Those that refuse to be honest with the NT, and admit their doctrinal errors and repent, will never understand the Gospel, much less embrace it. Nor do they want to. That is why, when the Gospel is preached, so too is repentance. They are a package deal, with repentance preceding the acceptance of the Gospel.
So Bob, if you really want to understand the Gospel Sabbath, you must first REPENT of your false view of the Sabbath. Can you do this?
You must FIRST admit your views about the law and the Gospel are not correct; and seek to find the genuine Gospel, which alone is salvific. But if you think you are fully correct, with no possible error, then you will never find the Gospel. Only those that FIRST humble themselves and REPENT can enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mark 1:14-15 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
When will the SDA leaders like Clifford Goldstein or Wilson Jr stop avoiding the issues and repent for Glacier View, and for embracing so many false doctrines, including the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath? When will the SDA leaders stop defending their many false doctrines and repent?
Unless they repent, and repudiate their theological errors, such as the IJ, tithe, and the OC Sabbath, they will never be able to understand nor embrace the correct Gospel and true Sabbath. Never. Thus the failure to repent will be FATAL for the SDA’s and all others.
All those that think Dr. Ford wrong, have excluded themselves from understanding the Gospel, just as those Jews that would not believe in John the Baptist did the same thing. All that defend Traditional Adventism have fallen from grace.
Those in the Gospel Story that refused to repent, ended up fighting against the Gospel as they foolishly pretend that they are not wrong about doctrine. This is why the SDA’s are on the record as persecuting Dr. Ford. They are just like the 1st century Jews that also hated the Gospel.
This is what happens when no one wants to admit error. They turn evil and fight against God, even as they claim to be on his side. The delusion of sin is very powerful, and it is obvious that the SDA’s have fallen under the same evil spell as the 1st century Jews. They are spiritually wretched, blind, and naked for all to see, even as they happily embrace many OC doctrines of death.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
All Laodiceans are doomed if they do not repent of their false Gospel and incorrect view of the Sabbath. Starting with the SDA’s! They must repent first, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Thus the Adventist Apocalyptic is moving forward, with or without them.
Matt. 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Mark 6:12 They went out and preached that men should repent.
Luke 13:3 “I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 26:20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.
Let all SDA’s repent of their many false doctrines, starting with the OC Sabbath. This doctrine proves that the SDA’s do not understand the Gospel, much less the Sabbath as they have so loudly boasted. WHICH IS WHY THEY MUST REPENT. Their doctrine of the Sabbath condemns them to hell, unless they repent. Just like it did the Jews!
The Jews REFUSED to repent. And look at their horrible history. They could not admit to being wrong about the Sabbath or the Messiah, much less anything else. They liked the status quo, and they fought hard to maintain their profitable, law-based traditions, including tithe.
What a horrible mistake they made. How could they be so stupid and self-destructive? How can the SDA’s make the very same mistakes?
Today, all Laodiceans must admit their doctrinal errors before they can understand the Gospel Sabbath. Those that insist their version of the Sabbath, (including Sunday), is correct, and refuse to honestly examine the Word to see what Jesus teaches, will miss the Gospel. They will waste their time trying to defend worthless tradition and lose their souls in the process.
For those having a hard time, let’s take a quick look at the SDA view of the Sabbath versus the Gospel Sabbath?
Fundamental Belief #20. The Sabbath-
Adventist Reform: First off, this doctrine should not be called just the Sabbath, as if there were only one, 7th day “Sabbath” in the Bible. There is an OC Sabbath and a NC Sabbath. The Gospel Sabbath is the NC version.
It is time for the SDA’s to grow up and stop being so unaware and incompetent about such an important point. They have embraced the OC Sabbath, not the NC version that is the topic of this discussion. Let all understand that there are TWO different doctrines of the 7th day Sabbath in the Bible. NOT JUST ONE!
The SDA’s: The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation.
Adventist Reform: The OC Sabbath was made for the Jews, not the Gentiles. The NC Sabbath is for Christians, both Jew and Gentile. Thus there are two different Sabbath doctrines in the Bible, each with different rules.
To pretend there is only one doctrine of the Sabbath in the Bible is absurd. I thought the SDA’s were supposed to be the world’s greatest experts on the Sabbath? If so, how could they miss this point? Don’t they know how to read the Gospels?
The SDA’s: The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath.
Adventist Reform: While the Moral law may be viewed as “unchangeable,” not so with the Sabbath. While Jesus does not abolish the Sabbath, he does transform and change it into a very different doctrine from the OC version.
Thus, Jesus does not view the Sabbath like the SDA’s. Nor is it “unchangeable” as the foolish SDA’s teach.
Jesus teaches that the prohibition against work on the Sabbath has been eliminated for the church. The doctrine of the Sabbath is still there, but in a different form.
Jesus dramatically CHANGED the OC Sabbath into a Sabbath that is unknown to the SDA’s and all others. Which is why they are stunned at this discussion. They never knew there was a Gospel Sabbath. They only know the law based Sabbath of the Pharisees. This is why their many apologists are unable to enter this discussion and defend their (false) view of the Sabbath. How pitiful is that?
Let all understand that the Gospel Sabbath of Christ contains an EXEMPTION from the Sabbath law of the 4th Commandment. Thus the SDA’s are wrong to think Jesus’ view of the Sabbath is like the OC Jews. It is very different. The SDA’s are not in harmony with Jesus NC Sabbath doctrine. They are following Moses and the Judaizers.
The SDA’s: The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom.
Adventist Reform: How can false doctrine be such a delight? How can doctrinal error be a sign of our redemption? This is absurd talk.
There is no such thing as breaking the OC Sabbath in the NC. There is no such Sabbath for the church to break. The Sabbath law against work has no power over the Christian, and thus the 4th commandment, with its’ rules against work, has been abolished by Christ, even as he created the active Gospel Sabbath for the church.
Consequently, there is no “SDA type of Sabbath keeping,” in the church, nor can “obedience” to the 4th Commandment be a sign of “sanctification” or Eternal life. Rather, OC Sabbath keeping is a sign of legalism and great error. It is a curse to the church, just as it was for the 1st century Jews.
The church is not under Moses or the Moral law. The NC Sabbath underscores this point and at the same time shows who is following Jesus and who is not.
The SDA’s: The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts.
Adventist Reform: The OT is full of many things that are called signs, like the rainbow, blood, and circumcision, as well as the OC Sabbath. But the church is not under the OC Sabbath law or circumcision and it is absurd for anyone to teach such a point.
Gen. 9:13 I set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth.
Ex. 12:13 ‘The blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you live; and when I see the blood I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.
Gen. 17:11 “And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.
How can the OC Sabbath become a sign for the NC? Where does Jesus teach such a doctrine?
Where does the Bible teach such doctrine? It does not teach any such thing.
The Sabbath of Moses is a sign of OC Judaism, not the Gospel. Which is why Jesus never taught any such Sabbath doctrine for the church as the SDA’s so foolishly claim.
In fact, those that embrace the reformed, NC Sabbath, are demonstrating that they are following Christ, not Moses, and that they have Eternal Life, through faith, not law keeping.
The SDA Sabbath is a “sign” that people do not understand, nor embrace, the Gospel correctly. It is a sign that they think like the Jews and that they have forfeited Eternal Life.
While the SDA’s pretend to “joyfully” observe the OC Sabbath “from sundown to sundown,” they are showing all that they are great Judaizers who hate the Gospel. Which is why they refuse to embrace the true Sabbath as taught by Christ. Thus the SDA Sabbath condemns the SDA’s, which is the opposite of what they teach.
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html
The SDA’s have made a great error about the Sabbath doctrine. They must face up to this problem and stop pretending that their view of the Sabbath is correct. It is not. Rather, they must all repent, embracing the 7th day, active, Gospel Sabbath.
Here is more SDA error about the Moral Law, which is so closely tied to the doctrine of the Sabbath:
Fundamental #19. Law of God:
The SDA’s: The great principles of God's law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God's love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age.
AReform says: The church is not under the 10 Commandment law, as the SDA’s teach. Rather, it is the law of Christ that controls both belief and behavior. To prove this point, Jesus teaches a guilt free Sabbath, where all in the church can break the 4th commandment and work with impunity.
Jesus removed and abolished the Sabbath law against work that is contained in the 4th commandment. As someone greater than Moses and greater than the Law, he gives a Gospel exclusion to all that follow him. Too bad the SDA’s have failed to figure this out. They have been so busy promoting their false Sabbath to anyone that would listen, that they failed to understand their great error.
The SDA’s are very wrong to teach that “Sabbath conduct” excludes work on the 7th day. Or that the “great principle” of not working on the Sabbath, is taught by Jesus. He does not support such an OC Sabbath, and the SDA’s should be ashamed of themselves for being so wrong about the Sabbath, their chief doctrine.
The SDA’s are very wrong to think that Jesus promotes the OC, nonworking Sabbath. They are making fools of themselves. They must not know how to read the NT or understand their own historical development? Pity.
Jesus only promotes the NC, active Sabbath for the church. He repudiates the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath, and so too should everyone else. This idea that the Sabbath Law of Moses must be protected and observed is the NC is very wrong and against the Gospel.
The SDA’s: These precepts are the basis of God's covenant with His people and the standard in God's judgment.
AReform says: The law is not the basis for salvation in the NC. Neither is the law greater than the Gospel. Only faith in Christ is salvific, not law keeping.
Thus no Christians are judged by the law to see if they are safe to save. Which means the SDA’s are very wrong about the IJ, as well as many other things. Their “wretched” doctrines are poison; fatal to all that consume them.
The SDA’s: Through the agency of the Holy Spirit they (10 C’s) point out sin and awaken a sense of need for a Saviour. Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments.
AReform: While the SDA’s teach that it is a sin to work on the Sabbath, Jesus teaches that the prohibition against work in 4th Commandment is not binding on the Christian. Thus the OC Sabbath is to be shunned, not obeyed in the NC.
Those that point to their obedience of the 4th Commandment as Gospel “fruit” do not understand the Gospel, nor are they saved. They are Judaizers, lacking the true fruit of faith and love. Jesus will curse them on the Judgment day, as Paul has already done in Galatians.
The SDA’s: This obedience (to the Moral Law) develops Christian character and results in a sense of well-being.
AReform: Law keeping is not the basis for anything in the NC, least of all our “well being.” Those that think otherwise are legalists. No sinner will ever gain heaven by his or her law keeping and Sabbath keeping. The SDA’s are condemned by their own words.
False doctrine does not build up Christian Character. Shame on the SDA’s for what they teach!
The SDA’s: It (law keeping) is an evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow men.
A Reform: OC Sabbath keeping is evidence of legalism. It is evidence that one misunderstands the Gospel teachings of Christ and our duty to God and man. The SDA’s have embraced the Sabbath of the Pharisees, even as they think just like this condemned group of tithe paying, legalistic, Sabbath keepers.
The SDA’s: The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness.
AReform: Those that obey the Gospel, will not embrace the OC Sabbath of Moses, nor will they teach that their sanctification is more important than Justification. So the SDA’s do not understand “the obedience of faith” as they claim.
The SDA claim about a “transformed life” is worthless double-talk and blasphemy. Those that understand the Gospel will refute such OC legalism and only follow the Gospel Sabbath, which does not prohibit work on the 7th day. Demonstrating that they are following the true Christ and not a fraud.
The SDA version of a transformed life is a delusion, and so too their view of the Gospel and church finance and organization. What they think is good behavior is gross Judaism and legalism. Anyone that obeys the SDA’s has fallen from grace. They are very confused and lost, just like those that followed the Pharisees and refused to embrace the Gospel Sabbath.
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html
The SDA’s do not understand the law or the Gospel correctly, much less the Sabbath or the teachings of Christ. And they have never understood these things correctly, which is why they keep self-destructing.
The very fact that no SDA leader can enter this discussion, speaks for itself. They are so wrong about the Sabbath, and most everything else, that the talking heads dare not try and defend themselves in public.
Sure they can write books, preach sermons, and broadcast endless propaganda out of their high tech media facilities, but they have no idea how to refute Adventist Reform. Their great apologists, like Clifford Goldstein, have been rendered speechless, embarrassed to even go online and address the issues with those that know the facts. Pitiful.
Thus the SDA’s have come to the end of the 3rd Angels Message. Unless they repent, they will become useless to both heaven and earth, and others will complete the paradigm of the Three Angels Messages. This process has already started and soon they SDA’s will become totally irrelevant and fully corrupt, if they have not already reached this fallen state.
The SDA’s have lost the debate against Adventist reform, but rather than admit the obvious and repent, they have decided to keep pretending all is well and that they alone have all the truth for the world. They are just like the Gospel hating Jews, who acted the same way. Sad.
Abe said: Tom, the jews are not doomed. In fact Paul says "ALL Israel will be saved". He also says "that God has not cast away Israel." Anti Semitism has no place in the true church of God.
Tom said: This text is not just a reference to the Jews, but to all that embrace the Gospel, both Jew and Gentile. In other words, all that follow Christ are the new Israel, and as such they are also “spiritual Jews.”
Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
Rom. 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Gal. 6:14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
Gal. 6:15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Gal. 6:16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
The 1st century Jews were doomed because they rejected the Gospel. They were cursed by Christ for their unbelief, which is why their Temple and Nation were destroyed in 70 AD. This is the fate of all that reject the Gospel, both Jew and Gentile.
Matt. 23:36 “Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Matt. 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
Matt. 23:38 “Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
Matt. 24:1 14 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
Matt. 24:2 And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”
The Roman Coliseum, built in AD 72-80 AD stands as an ancient monument to the doom of the Jews. This wonder of the world was built with the treasure, (and slaves) from the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. Thus the fall of Jerusalem made the Roman Colosseum possible.
http://www.roman-colosseum.info/colosse … osseum.htm
Instead of sacrificial blood that pointed to the Messiah, this new Gentile building in Rome represented the most despotic and cruel bloodletting of the ancient world. The Jews have suffered greatly for their rejection of the Gospel, and so too will everyone else who is so foolish.
This is the fate of all that refuse the Gospel Sabbath and play games with the teachings of Jesus, whether Jew or Gentile. Utter destruction awaits those, like the SDA’s, who are foolish enough to turn their backs on the Gospel of Christ.
The Great Sabbath Error
The SDA’s were/are correct on a number of major points:
1. That the Sunday Sabbath is a fraud; only the 7th day can be the genuine Lord’s day for the church.
2. That Sabbath Reform is necessary to prepare the Church for the Second Coming.
3. That the 7th day Sabbath will be involved in the final proclamation of the Gospel, which is shown in Rev 18.
All three points are correct. But not a number of others, such as Sunday laws starting the Time of Trouble, or this idea that there is a battle taking place between the 7th day and 1st day Sabbath, which the SDA’s teach is the Mark of the Beast.
The Gospel Story does not contain a Sabbath debate between Sunday, the 1st day, and the 7th day, as the SDA’s teach. Their assumption is unfounded; not supported by the NT. Which means their eschatology is very wrong, and so too their view of the Gospel, the Sabbath, and most everything else.
The only Sabbath debate contained in the Gospels is between the non working Sabbath of the Jews and the NC, Active Sabbath, as taught by Christ. It is a 7th day Sabbath versus another view of the 7th day Sabbath. It is not a 7th day versus the 1st day battle.
Such a point stuns the SDA’s because the Sunday versus Sabbath debate is their great obsession, the reason why they think they exist. But there is no such debate in scriptures, at least not the way the SDA’s have understood it. The SDA’s have failed to fully understand the Sabbath, even as they have managed to misunderstand the Gospel teachings of Jesus.
When the SDA obsession, (and diversion), about Sunday is removed from center of SDA eschatology, what remains is the 7th day Sabbath of the Pharisees versus the 7th day Sabbath of Christ. Here is the real Sabbath debate that has been overlooked by all. It leaves no doubt as to the true definition of the Gospel Sabbath.
The true Lord’s Day of the church is not Sunday, nor is it the non-working, OC Sabbath of the SDA’s. It is another 7th day doctrine. A day that is meant for Gospel preaching and congregational praise; a day that is guilt free for all that understand the Gospel and follow Jesus.
Here is a new doctrine for all denominations, even for the SDA’s, the champions of the 7th day Sabbath. This new Sabbath doctrine anchors the 4th Angels Message and forces all to re-evaluate their view of the Gospel.
The Gospel Sabbath gives new meaning to the term Sabbath Reform, even as it will do the same thing to the doctrine of the Lord’s day. This is the Sabbath that the SDA’s should have understood back in 1888, and again in 1980. But like the Jews, they turned away from the Gospel and fell back into legalism, embracing the schoolmaster Sabbath of the Judaizers.
Where are the SDA Apologists?
This thread is for the SDA’s to defend their Sabbath doctrine. This is their opportunity to show everyone that they know the scriptures better than all others.
Look around. Only one brave soul ventured to defend the Sabbath of the SDA’s. So Bill S gets high marks for trying, even though he obviously failed to make his case. But where are all the others?
Where are the SDA pastors who have made a living from the Sabbath all these years? Are they unable to defend their greatest doctrine, upon which their mission is based?
Traditional Adventism is full of wrong doctrine and false history. The SDA’s don’t even have the Sabbath correct, much less the Gospel or eschatology, or much of anything. Which is why they run from this public discussion. They need to repent, not run away.
It is time for the Adventist Community to wake up, repent, and complete Sabbath Reform.
It is time for the SDA’s to “finish the work,” by moving forward to the 4th and final Adventist Message, which articulates the genuine Gospel and correct 21st century eschatology.
There is no use in trying to defend the legions of errors that have destroyed the 3rd Angels Message. The time for double-talk and diversion from the SDA leaders is over. While the past cannot be changed, or hidden any more, the present errors need not be repeated over and over.
The present course of the Advent Movement must be corrected, or the Adventist Apocalyptic will terminate at the very time when it should go forward with a greater understanding of Gospel theology and prophecy.
There is no time to waste.
The Gospel Sabbath is a paradigm shifting doctrine for the SDA’s. It will lead the way for the development of the final Gospel Message of Rev 18, which will “finish the work.”
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Offline
Just when it seemed the TSDA’s had stopped trying to defend their foolish confusion, along comes a new defender of the IJ, Tithe, and the Old Covenant Sabbath.
Let’s see what this TSDA has to offer? Let’s also assume that he is an honest seeker of Gospel truth. A person not afraid to confess false doctrine when it becomes obvious from scripture.
Dublin said: Tom Norris in his pointless insults of all that disagree with him is essentially calling them “fools.”
Tom replied: There are many SDA’s who think Dr. Ford and Tom Norris are wrong. Especially when they hear these views for the first time. This does not make them fools, just misinformed.
The vast majority who hear that the IJ was never a “pillar” in the Three Angels Messages, (as all were taught), and that Old Covenant Sabbath keeping is wrong and so too tithing, and abstinence, etc., are shocked into disbelief. The initial reaction is to “disagree.”
This is fine. Such reaction is normative. How could the indoctrinated act any other way? But such initial disagreement is not foolish, nor does it make anyone a fool. Rather, it is wisdom to move cautiously and carefully. Otherwise, every wind of doctrine would be too easily embraced.
But at some point, say after 20 or 30 years, when the initial shock has worn off, and men of stature, like Raymond Cottrell confess the error of Glacier View, there must be an honest re- examination of the issues. At some point, the search for truth, and justice, must take hold, even as all the foolish myths are removed, and the corruption stopped.
No Search for Truth
The problem with the SDA’s is this: what was once healthy skepticism about the issues has morphed, not into a necessary search for truth, but into a dishonest, irrational, and divisive defense of what is false, mythical, and wrong.
THIS is very foolish, stupid, and blasphemous. This bad Laodicean attitude is destroying the SDA church, and should it continue, the Denomination is doomed. It may already be too late?
O foolish TSDA’s, why have you allowed the White Estate to make fools of you? Why have you been so foolish as to let the leaders promote one false doctrine after another, even the fraud of tithe, which has created a heretical hierarchy that has seized money and the power to promote an anti-Gospel empire that is forbidden by the teachings of Jesus?
The SDA’s were very foolish to reject the Gospel in 1888, and they were even more foolish to hide this history so that it could be repeated in Takoma Park and Silver Spring. In hindsight it is easy to look back and see that Glacier View was the 20th century repeat of 1888. But the leaders are still pretending not to understand the issues of either, even as they suppress documents, censor discussion, and refuse to deal with the issues.
This is very foolish and sinful behavior. And if the TSDA’s don’t like being called fools, then they need to repent to Dr. Ford and stop fighting the Gospel. Otherwise, the term sticks to them just like it stuck to the “foolish” Galatians.
Insults Have Meaning
In this discussion about Gospel Reform and church history, no insult or repudiation is pointless. No word, reference, or reply, is without meaning or purpose.
Remember, we are not the first to engage in a theological debate about the Gospel. This has been going on for a very long time, and it is far from over.
In fact, we must pay careful attention to the original Gospel debates of Jesus and the apostles in order to follow their proper example. I am sure that even the TSDA’s would agree.
Consequently, when we read the NT, we see Jesus calling the Pharisees all manner of nasty, “insulting” names, even as we later see Paul doing the same thing. These were not rare events, but normative and repeated responses to their religious critics.
The NT teaches that there is a place for “insults” and condemnation of false doctrine. It is normative, biblical, and practical. Any who think otherwise are showing their ignorance of the NT.
Those that preach the genuine Gospel must stand up and condemn, by name, and in public, any leaders that promote a false Gospel in the church. It is Gospel duty. There is no choice in such matters for those that understand Paul’s Gospel.
This is the nature of Protestant, Gospel reform. Which is why we also see the Reformers making many insults against the Pope and his false Gospel. This is the nature of Gospel debate and Reform. It is not for the faint of heart or the easily frightened.
Listen to the leaders of the apostolic church get insulted, condemned, and embarrassed by Paul because they embraced a “distorted Gospel.” Such action was hardly “pointless,” but in fact, was supported by the Holy Spirit and the will of God.
Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Not only did Paul rail against false theology in the church, he also defamed and insulted all those Christians, the TSDA’s of their day, who embraced a false Gospel. Not even the top leaders were spared Paul’s condemnation and his charge that they were all acting like fools.
In fact, Paul called the TSDA’s of his day worse than fools. He called them “dogs,” a major insult in the ancient world. To call someone a dog is worse than calling them a fool. This was about as low as it gets. Although the term Paul coined for these enemies of the Gospel, the Circumcision Party, was also a great slander and insult in the Gentile word.
Jewish circumcision repulsed the Greco-Roman world. They hated it, and thus to identify any Gentile Christian group with Jewish circumcision was a great slander and cultural offense. Paul knew this. He knew that the Gentile world hated this primitive, painful doctrine, which they viewed as uncivilized. Thus he invented this insulting name, The Circumcision Party to insult, embarrass, and ridicule these false teachers of the Gospel.
So there is a good reason why the Gospel Story is full of carefully targeted insults. All that claim to embrace the Gospel should understand this fact, and make sure that they are not taking any positions that would condemn them as being foolish and wrong.
Moreover, Paul then tells his listeners that they should follow his attitude, warning them to beware of those with a false Gospel.
Phil. 3:17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.
Phil. 3:18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,
Listen to Paul insult the enemies of the Gospel. There should be no doubt that we are to follow his example and defend the Gospel from frauds and fools.
Phil. 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you.
Phil. 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
Phil. 3:3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
Phil. 3:4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:
Phil. 3:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
Phil. 3:6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.
Phil. 3:7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
Phil. 3:8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
Phil. 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
Let all understand, the TSDA’s are the equivalent of the Judaizers. They have a false Gospel where our sanctification determines and controls our salvation. They are obsessed with the Law, just like the foolish Circumcision Party. Which is why they set up a mythical Celestial Judgment way out in deep space, to see if their Sanctification has made them safe to save.
The SDA doctrines of tithe, the OC Sabbath, and the IJ, (a judgment of our sanctification), are the same as ritual circumcision that Paul condemned. Had the Galatians been so foolish as to try and embrace tithing, then Paul would have condemned them for that doctrine as well as circumcision. But they were not that foolish. They never pulled such an impossible stunt, but had they tried, Paul would have condemned them, just like he would the SDA’s today.
The SDA’s have embraced the Old Covenant view of the Gospel. They are Judaizers. They are like the Galatian Church that listened to the false Gospel of Peter and James.
This exactly what the RCC later embraced, and thus they are the Gentile children of the Galatians. They have embraced the same “distorted” and false Gospel of Peter and James.
Dublin said: Jesus in Matthew says that a person who calls his brother a “fool” is in danger of hell fire.
Tom said: Have you ever read Matt 23? Do you understand that Matt 5: 22 is a reference to Old Covenant excommunication? It is not about “calling” someone a fool as you say.
Jesus condemned his enemies by calling them many insulting names, including the term “fool.” How could he lambaste the Jewish leaders like he did in public, but yet at the same time teach that it was wrong for others to do the same thing?
This is absurd and makes no sense. Was Jesus a great hypocrite or are you the one who has made an error?
In this one passage alone, Matt 23, Jesus called his religious enemies the following:
“Sons of hell, blind guides, fools, blind men, hypocrites, lawless and self-indulgent robbers, gullible, greedy, unclean and full of dead men’s bones, murderers, guilty and condemned to hell, a brood of vipers and serpents.
Wow! Did you get all that? If not read it again and repent for this absurd interpretation of Matt 5: 22. It is wrong and those who insist otherwise are fools.
The TSDA’s would rather make Jesus out to be a hypocrite, then just admit that they have misunderstood his teaching on this point and many others.
While no one likes to be called a “fool” this is what the TSDA’s are. This is what anyone is who is so dishonest about the Gospel.
Matt. 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one 1aproselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Matt. 23:16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.’
Matt. 23:17 “You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold?
Matt. 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
Matt. 23:24 “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
Matt. 23:25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence.
Matt. 23:26 “You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
Matt. 23:27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.
Matt. 23:28 “So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Matt. 23:29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
Matt. 23:30 and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’
Matt. 23:31 “So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
Matt. 23:32 “Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
Matt. 23:33 “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
As usual, the TSDA’s are demonstrating their lack of sound hermeneutics. Mat 5:22 is not being used correctly by this crowd, or within the confines of its historical context. They seem too lazy to try and figure out what Jesus is really saying. Choosing instead whatever interpretation best suits their cultic mind at the time.
Today, it is an easy thing to look up any text online, and see what it is really saying in the original language, as well as get a quick summery from many different perspectives. Had you and Hub done this, you would not now be caught misusing the Word. You were both very foolish to skip this research, and now you are going to have to wise up and repent. The text does not say what you claim.
http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/topic/976
I suggest that you go back and read my post that deals with this text and educate yourself on how to better understand the teachings of Jesus. The NT is an ancient work that cannot be read as if were not. It takes some real study and effort to comprehend the original meaning, much less to make a contemporary application.
D said: Tom admits to be an Adventist, so we are brothers. How should brothers treat each other? If they disagree, it is reasonable discuss the issue and try to come to an agreement. But even this must be done in Christian love.
Tom said: While all are brothers and sisters in the church, that assumes all have the same Gospel. If a “brother” is found to have a different Gospel, then we are not brothers at all. Then there is division in the church, not peace, even a Civil War, like the Reformation.
Matt. 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Matt. 10:35 “For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
Matt. 10:36 and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
Matt. 10:37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
Those that hold to a false Gospel are enemies of those that hold to the original faith of the NT. The one holding the correct Gospel is duty bound to curse the other so that all will know the true path to Eternal Life.
Moreover, you must have written your post before paying much attention to the real meaning of Mat 5: 22 that I posted. This text does not say what you and Hub, and many others think. And you need to go back and read that post more carefully.
You are trying to prove a hopeless point, that regardless, will not help defend the error of the IJ, or Tithe or the many additional errors of TA. These are the real issues under discussion. Not this minor point about calling someone names.
Do you think we are in grade school? Perhaps out in the playground playing a game?
No. This is an adult discussion about how to lose, or obtain, Eternal Life.
I suggest you pay close attention, because at this point, if it were a game, the TSDA’s are losing badly.
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopi … 9024#p9024
So you need to stop acting like a fool and stop using Matthew 5: 22 incorrectly. In fact, you need to retract what you said, because the text does not, not, not support your view, or that of “Hub the Foolish.” Sorry.
Dublin said: **“Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;” Romans 12:10 (KJV)
Tom said: Of course the church should love one another, this is the fulfilling of the law and one of the by-products of the Gospel. But it is not “love” to allow anyone to preach a false Gospel.
Neither love nor law supports or excuses false doctrine. This issue here is a false Gospel. Those in the church that refuse to be honest with the issues and repent for their false Gospel, are not to be shown love, but the door. This is required duty. They are to be strongly and publicly condemned, just like Paul did with the Galatians.
This confused reasoning about Mat 5: 22 will make Jesus a sinner, because he was very harsh with his fellow Jews.
Was Jesus wrong to say what he did in Matt 23? He was not kind at all to the Pharisees, even as he called them fools. But he was not trying to be kind. Nor should we when it comes to correcting false doctrine from the stubborn and rebellious.
There is a time to insult and condemn, and the NT makes it clear when, and under what circumstances such negative language is to be used. Only a fool would fail to comprehend this discussion and understand this point.
Paul must also be guilty of not being kind and loving, because he too insulted and railed against a large group within the apostolic church called the Circumcision Party. Although they were fellow Jews, (“brothers”) and Christians, he attacked them whenever he could, even calling them “dogs” and liars.
I have refrained from using such colorful apostolic language, but perhaps I have been too soft on the foolish TSDA’s? Maybe they need harsher language from Tom Norris?
Dublin said: Lets look at Tom’s list of verses that use the word “fool.”
Tom said: It is a mistake to use the scriptures for the purpose of defending false doctrine. Rather, you should be trying to figure out why those that understand the Gospel are calling the TSDA’s “fools.”
Before you try and prove your incorrect point, let me remind you that this discussion is not about who is nice and who is not. This little discussion about the use of the word fool, is very foolish and diversionary. It is a smokescreen for “Hub the foolish” to avoid dealing with the real issues, as well as the specific call for him to repent of Traditional Adventism.
So you can foolishly waste your time trying to deal with such minor points if you want, but there are far more important issues that need to be understood and resolved, like understanding the Gospel and church history correctly.
Dublin said: **Understanding can come only in patient explanation.
Tom said: Ha! If you understood how many times I have gone round and round with Hub, and many like him. He was on the old AT site and he was just as wrong and stubborn over there as he is here. He has learned nothing from those discussions, nor has he repented from any of his false views that he has been unable to sustain.
So he is not searching for truth like a “wise” man, but how to stop Gospel Reform in the church. This is very foolish and wrong.
As for “patience” there is a limited supply. This is why Jesus would get angry with the religious leaders of his day, and why Paul became furious with Peter and James, condemning them in public for all to see.
In Gospel Reform, there always comes a point when it is time make a decision. The preaching of the Gospel leads men and women to make a decision and face the consequences.
Those that fight against the Gospel, like Goldstein, or Hub, and all the TSDA’s, are to be condemned in the most blunt and public fashion. THIS is what the NT teaches and you are being very foolish to try and pretend otherwise. Even as you are being delusional for thinking that the false Gospel of the TSDA’s is valid and salvific. It is not.
Pay careful attention: Anyone today, who embraces OC Tithe paying and the OC Sabbath, does NOT understand the Gospel correctly. They are great fools.
Anyone that believes in the IJ, and thinks it wrong to drink real wine at the Eucharist has a very distorted Gospel that is worthless and wrong.
The SDA’s do NOT understand, nor do they embrace, the Protestant Gospel of the NT. This is a fact that cannot be refuted, least of all by the foolish and dishonest TSDA’s.
Dublin said: **Dr. Ford has been shown to believe very differently from SDA teachings. This is his right, of course, but it is not honest for a person to believe and teach a different doctrine and yet call himself an Adventist.
Tom said: Ha! Who has “shown” you that Dr. Ford has the wrong Gospel? Or that he does not know Adventist history?
Give me his or her name and let’s see what they are saying?
It could not have been any of the apostles, because they agree with Dr. Ford’s Gospel. So who is your authority on the teachings of Dr. Ford’s? On what basis do you judge him? Which religious leader have you foolishly followed in this matter?
Moreover, show us the specifics points where Dr. Ford’s views were so “very different” from SDA’s, that he had to be exiled?
You do know that Dr. Ford is a great supporter of the 7th day Sabbath for the church? And that he respects Ellen White and her gifts?
He also embraces the Three Angels Messages as a genuine, historic and prophetic Movement that was the work of God, even as he has practiced the Health Message all his life.
So how is this anti-Adventist?
Dr. Ford understands the essence of Historic Adventism and represents it much more correctly than those that ran him and the Gospel out of the Denomination. He understands both Adventist history and theology far better than the confused and dishonest TSDA’s. So your assumption, is only that, a foolish assumption that has never been proven by anyone, at any time.
In fact, we spent a lot of time discussing the IJ at the past two sites. Clifford Goldstein, the author of a small book about 1844, came online to join the discussion. He hated Dr. Ford’s theology and thought it all wrong.
However, when it came time to have a detailed discussion, he fell flat on his face and ran away. It turns out that Goldstein never found the IJ in the Bible. He was TOLD all these bad things about Dr. Ford, and then TOLD this myth about the IJ being a fundamental pillar, and that Ellen White supposedly supported it, blah, blah, and blah.
But it was all a bunch of nonsense, myth, and rumor from the confused TSDA’s. And young Goldstein fell for it. In other words, Goldstein, as a new SDA, knew nothing about the IJ, but then he was brainwashed, trained to parrot the slander that Dr. Ford was a heretic, and that he was exiled for cause.
Once online however, Goldstein soon discovered what he had been taught by the TSDA’s, could not be supported by the facts. Not only could it not be supported by the Bible, not even Ellen White, or the Pioneers supported Traditional Adventism, or the doctrine of the IJ as taught by the White Estate and the Review.
Don’t take my word for it. Read these and many other threads and see that Dr. Ford was correct about the IJ. It is not the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message, nor was it ever declared to be so by any 19th century SDA. Thus Dr. Ford is correct. Those who still think he was wrong are the greatest of fools.
See:
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1013659183
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1166507859
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1023044579
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … #POST14972
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=227
There is no IJ pillar in the Three Angels Messages. Period. It is a false judgment that is against the Gospel and against Historic Adventism, and against the real Judgment, which is the 2nd Coming. The IJ is incompatible and against the original and genuine version of the Three Angels Messages that can never be changed.
Dr. Ford, the Myth Buster!
The IJ was correctly discovered by Dr. Ford to be a false doctrine. Such a blunt position, coming from a leading SDA theologian and Pastor, stunned the Denomination. But the shock of the situation, and the churches irresponsible reaction, is beside the point. After all these years, Dr. Ford’s views are still correct. The facts have not changed in the slightest, and neither has the Gospel.
People were only shocked at Dr. Ford’s conclusion about the IJ because the White Estate and the Review had indoctrinated generations into the fraud of Traditional Adventism. They could not imagine that what they had been taught all these years could be wrong. So most all reacted in horror to Dr. Ford’s (correct) repudiation of the IJ. It seemed impossible.
What all SDA’s had been taught, and what all assumed was true, having the full support of Ellen White and the Bible, was not true. The entire church had been hoodwinked by the White Estate and the Review into embracing serious historical and doctrinal myths.
The fact of the matter is that neither Ellen White, or Uriah Smith, nor anyone in Battle Creek, ever viewed the IJ the way all were taught in Takoma Park. It never happened.
Not one 19th century SDA, including Ellen White, ever taught “the hour of his Judgment has come” in Rev 14: 7 was the IJ. It never happened; even though this is what all SDA’s thought in 1980 and most all still think today. The incompetent and dishonest leaders were so wrong about this point, that they confused the whole church, slandered Ellen White, and then refused to face up to their great error and repent.
The Pioneers NEVER interpreted this Judgment pillar as the IJ. Never. So why did the White Estate say otherwise?
Because they are foolish and dishonest Judaizers, legalists, drunk with religious power and authority, so much so that they led the Denomination into division, and self-destruction. Arthur White is the greatest of fools, and so too anyone that defend this corrupt and incompetent institution.
A fact of history is a fact of history. But yet those at Glacier View were blind to this point that proved them wrong. There is no IJ pillar. It has turned out to be a false doctrine and a false pillar, promoted by those with a false Gospel.
But who knew this in 1980?
Dr. Ford was ahead of his time, and far ahead of his foolish peers that did not understand either church history or the Gospel correctly.
Although the truth discovered by Dr. Ford seemed absurd and impossible, even heretical, truth is truth. But here is where tradition and the facts clash. After all, everyone “knew” that the IJ was a great Pillar within the Three Angels Message, one that could never be questioned or removed. To do so, was to repudiate Ellen White and Adventism. Blah, blah, blah…
Based on SDA tradition, Dr. Ford was wrong. But based on the facts, he was correct. He is still correct. Ellen White does not support Traditional Adventism or what happened at Glacier View.
Glacier View was based on many false theological and historical assumptions. It was not based on the facts of scripture or church history. It is time for the SDA’s stop embracing so many false assumptions about Dr. Ford, Ellen White and church doctrine. The facts are no longer hidden and there is nowhere for the dishonest SDA’s to hide.
Justice demands that Glacier View must be repudiated. The great error that took place in 1980 must be corrected and made right or the SDA church is forever doomed.
Dublin quoted and then said: Jer. 4:22 “For My people are foolish,
They know Me not;
They are stupid children
And have no understanding.
They are shrewd to do evil,
But to do good they do not know.”
Dublin said: **This cannot be said of the SDA scholars. There is abundant scholarly literature showing honest and insightful knowledge of Bible truth.
Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. So the SDA scholars are honest and true? Who told you this? They did? Haven’t you heard this joke? The only honest SDA scholar is a retired one!
The SDA’s don’t have any “honest” scholars after they removed Dr. Ford. Even Raymond Cottrell, a long time SDA scholar embraced Dr. Ford’s views before he died, and so too have legions of scholars and former SDA’s pastors. And so too any that are honest and free to speak the truth.
Most all SDA pastors and teachers know that the SDA church teaches much false doctrine, but they also know that if they want to keep their jobs, they will play along. So they play along, until they get tired of all the false doctrine, and then trash Adventism as they leave. Richard Fredericks is a good example.
Such pretending is dishonest and outrageous. There can be no pretending about the Gospel or the teachings of Jesus. The SDA’s need to repent and become honest. But the TSDA’s are foolishly blocking the way.
In fact, if the SDA’s had any honest scholars or pastors, they would have long ago sent them online to prove that Traditional Adventism is true and the Glacier View was the will of God. But not only have they all run from any public discussion of the issues, the church leaders have tried to censor and stop Adventist Reform.
What kind of experts run away?
Dr. Ford is an honest scholar. He has not run away. He has answered all the questions and defended his views with mountains of evidence.
So whenever you find this “honest” SDA scholar, you send him to me and I will be happy to cross-examine any of them for all to see, exposing their foolish doctrine with a smile. Then we will see how much “insight” and knowledge they really have?
But I won’t hold my breath. No IJ champion will show up ever since the great Goldstein was so easily defeated. The TSDA’s know they cannot win such a contest. That is why they all run away…
Dublin said: And “doing good to others?” The Adventist church does much good in their mission work, hospitals, schools and churches.
Tom said: Ha! So you think the SDA’s good deeds have impressed heaven?
The Laodicean Message has judged the good deeds of the SDA’s as worthless. They are so bad in fact, that this passage actually says that they make Jesus vomit.
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
The SDA's do not help anyone but themselves. They strip the local churches of their funds through the fraud of tithe, so there are no resources left to help anyone. Nor is there any system in place to help the family in the pew.
Today, anyone that understands the Gospel correctly, and knows how to read the Bible, will also be sickened by the many false SDA doctrines, like the wrong Sabbath, and tithe, and the IJ, just to mention three, as well as by their worthless deeds and arrogant attitude.
Realty Check: What good is an education system that is so dishonest, that they exile their top scholar and theologian, Dr. Ford, for telling the truth? Where is the wisdom in such behavior? Where is the Gospel?
Rather then follow the unfolding path of biblical knowledge, the SDA’s are trying to force everyone to think as if the world was stuck in 1950, when the church had every point correct, and where few who complained. But we do not live in the 1950's...
Today, the SDA educational system is a farce, and the world knows it. Censorship, Dishonesty, and Propaganda should not be the basis for any Christian educational system, and the SDA’s should be ashamed of themselves for what they have done.
What about the hospitals? Do the SDA’s teach and live the Health Message? Hardly. Most of the members are out of shape, and few have any idea how to eat. There is "health message" any more, just as there is no Gospel truth.
There is no Health Message any more in the SDA church, and there has not been for many decades. Which is why the SDA Health Magazine is essentially bankrupt. It used to be the #1 Health Magazine in the County, but now it is in last place, worthless and irrelevant.
As for missionaries, what is the point? Those that teach a false Gospel need to repent, not brag about their confused exploits. In hindsight, many missionaries took advantage of the people; which is why there is far more anger against the missionaries in these foreign countries than there is praise.
The SDA church needs to repent, reform, and re-organize. This is their only hope. They have almost no doctrines correct, even as their infrastructure is outdated and crumbling, and the vast majority speaks badly about them. The preset situation is not sustainable or correct.
Dublin quoted Tom Norris who said: “How can it be wrong to label a person a fool when this is what the Bible does? This is what Jesus does, and so too Paul? “
Dublin then said: **The Bible uses the word “fool” usually to describe those who refuse to believe, and even oppose the gospel. By definition, they are not “brothers.”
Tom said: BINGO! This is what I am saying about Hub the foolish. The TSDA’s are GREAT FOOLS because they refuse to repent of their false Gospel. They are fighting against the Gospel, and against Ellen White and against Three Angels Messages. We are not brothers, but theological enemies.
So I say to any SDA that embraces the IJ and tithe, and cheers for Glacier View: You “foolish SDA.”
Paul would say the same thing to the SDA’s and so too Jesus, who is demanding that they also repent in the real Pre Advent Judgment of the LM. Which means, that the TSDA’s are also wrong about Matt 5: 22. Jesus does not teach it wrong to insult the TSDA’s with the well-deserved term of fool. They are great and “wretched” fools for all to see.
Let all TSDA’s read about themselves in Galatians and repent!
Paul said:
Gal. 2:21 “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Gal. 3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
Gal. 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Tom Norris says: You “foolish” SDA’s! Why do you nullify the Gospel, teaching there is an IJ, to see if your law keeping is acceptable to God? Are you so foolish to think your sanctification is salvific?
Are you so foolish as to embrace the Old Covenant Sabbath and tithing instead of the New Covenant doctrines that Jesus teaches?
Are you so foolish as to think that law keeping, and Sabbath keeping are salvific?
Are you so foolish as to persecute and exile those that understand the Word and preach the Gospel correctly?
Woe are the SDA’s if they do not repent and reform!
Woe to the SDA’s if they do not officially and publicly repent for Glacier View and apologize to Dr. Ford and all those who were persecuted for the Gospel.
Dublin said: Jesus did use strong language, like “hypocrites” to expose the Pharisees, but He did so with tears, and only on rare occasions, not constantly.
Tom said: Ha! So when you see something you don’t like in the Bible, it is rare and should be discounted? But yet, even though the IJ is so “rare” and hard to prove from the Bible, it has nonetheless become a great doctrine that all must embrace? Why the difference?
This is too funny, and once again shows that the TSDA’s do not respect the Word. They see it as their play toy to do with it what they want. Both their logic and their hermeneutics are absurd, dishonest, and unprofessional. They have fallen from grace until they repent.
For the record, Jesus did not spare the insults as you claim, and neither did Paul or John. Insulting the enemies of the Gospel is normative and routine in the NT.
The fact that you think otherwise helps explain why the foolish TSDA’s so easily get their feeling hurt. But that is the point with such shocking, targeted, language. It is meant to wake up those in danger, even as it re-enforces the correct path for those watching.
So I say again to all the TSDA’s; Stop being so foolish and repent!
D quoted Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
D said: **This is not talking about a brother, but on those who refused to believe.
Tom said: WRONG! Jesus was speaking to his fellow Jews, his brothers in the faith of Judaism. He was also speaking about any downstream that refuse to honestly understand his words, like all the TSDA’s.
D quoted Luke 12:20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?’
D said: **This man had no concern for eternal salvation. He was not a brother, but rather an “idolater” in worshiping material things.
Tom said: Jesus was teaching about the evil of greed to his fellow Jews and to all that would follow him through out the long ages of history. These words are for the church.
Jesus taught about a “rich man” who had spent his entire life acquiring wealth and possessions, but he made no time for religion, and thus he lost his soul.
Jesus was warning his followers to beware of greed. It leads to great foolishness.
Luke 12:15 Then He said to them, “Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed; for not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions.”
Luke 12:16 And He told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man was very productive.
Luke 12:17 “And he began reasoning to himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no place to store my crops?’
Luke 12:18 “Then he said, ‘This is what I will do: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods.
Luke 12:19 ‘And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry.”’
Luke 12:20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?’
Luke 12:21 “So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”
Jesus teaches that all men are “fools” if they forget how short life is, and if they allow the pursuit of riches to eclipse the Gospel. And so too are the $multi- billion dollar SDA church if they do not repent of their foolish and false doctrines.
The SDA church is worth about 25 BILLION dollars. They are very rich. But they are nonetheless very foolish not to understand that they are blind, naked, and bankrupt in the eyes of Heaven. Foolish SDA’s. So very foolish.
D quoted: Luke 24:25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
D said: **Actually, one who is “slow of heart to believe” is an unbeliever, and will believe only when he is forced to believe by events. He is not a brother.
Tom said: Don’t you know that these words of Jesus were directed to his disciples? To his Jewish brothers in the Gospel? He was not speaking to “unbelievers" as you claim.
You need to stop being so foolish and so sloppy with the Word. The context makes it perfectly clear who these people were that Jesus insulted and corrected. But the TSDA’s often ignore the context because of their dishonest proof texting ways. In other words, they will make the text say what they want, - even when it says the opposite. No wonder their doctrines make no sense.
Even after Jesus called them “fools” he went on with these disciples, with these Jewish "brothers," to stay and eat with them. Proving that God loves those whom he calls fools.
Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
Luke 24:28 And they approached the village where they were going, and He acted as though He were going farther.
Luke 24:29 But they urged Him, saying, “Stay with us, for it is getting toward evening, and the day is now nearly over.” So He went in to stay with them.
Luke 24:30 When He had reclined at the table with them, He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it, He began giving it to them.
Luke 24:31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight.
Luke 24:32 They said to one another, “Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?”
So once again, a proper readying of the passage disproves your interpretation of Matt 5: 22, as well as this double-talk about Jesus calling only “unbelievers” fools. Jesus is clearly calling his own brothers, his own followers and disciples, “fools.” This is what this text says and there is no use in pretending otherwise.
Learn how to read the NT without all this careless twisting of the meaning. Repent of your foolish ways.
D quoted: 1Cor. 15:36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
D said: **In context, Paul is addressing those who refuse to believe, raising impossible questions.
Tom said: Ha! Wrong again! The TSDA’s have a difficult time when it comes to the context of any Bible passage. They need to go to Dr. Ford and learn proper, Protestant Hermeneutics, as well as the Gospel.
Paul is clearly addressing the Corinthian Church in this letter to the Corinthians. He is not addressing unbelievers and it is absurd to make such a claim. Here is the proof:
1Cor. 1:1 Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
1Cor. 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
1Cor. 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Why in the world would anyone pretend that Paul was writing to unbelievers?
Oh! I know. Because the TSDA’s are trying to support their false view of Matt 5: 22. And this requires that numerous other verses must also be taken out of context, interpreted falsely in order to defend error. All of this just to pretend that the TSDA’s are not great fools. Too bad it won’t work. They are still great fools that pretend they know the Bible better then anyone else.
Just read the passage and understand that Paul is writing and speaking to the church. He is telling them to stop sinning and get serious about the Gospel. He was ashamed at some of their behavior, as well as those that openly doubted the resurrection.
1Cor. 15:34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.
1Cor. 15:35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?”
1Cor. 15:36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
1Cor. 15:37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body, which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
1Cor. 15:38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
So Paul is calling “some” of the Christians in Corinth “fools.” Why try and refute what is so clear?
D quoted: 1Cor. 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.
D said:**In context, Paul is showing that worldly philosophy that refuses to believe in God is foolishness. To be a Christian was foolishness to worldly philosophers but wisdom in the eyes of God.
Tom said: You should add the next verse.
1Cor. 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God.
Any that ignore or refuse the Gospel are foolish in the eyes of heaven. This includes the SDA’s, which is why I applied the term to Hub and now to you.
D said: **Jesus said that to call a brother a fool was wrong (Matthew 5:22). Jesus and Paul have repeatedly called upon church members to “love one another.” Jesus and Paul did not call Christian believers “fools.
Tom said: Jesus did not teach what you claim, nor did Paul hold back from blasting those in the church that promoted a false Gospel.
Jesus called his disciples “foolish” and “slow” on the road to Emmaus, and Paul called his fellow apostles, and the Galatian church “foolish” and deceived. There are many passages that disprove your foolish position. If you do not repent, and start reading the Bible with more honesty, respect and care, you will never be able to understand the Gospel. You will remain a damned fool trying to pass the IJ.
D said: **If you follow Paul and Jesus’ example you will not call a fellow believer a fool, even if he disagrees. And Jesus on several occasions did disagree with certain of his disciples, but he did not call them fools.
Tom said: Wrong. We have already seen a number of texts that disprove your foolish view. Sorry. You are wrong. Deal with it like a wise man and repent, not like a fool, who thinks he is right when he is not even close.
In Galatians, the book that overturns the false, SDA Gospel, Paul calls the Galatian Church “foolish” -twice, even as this term is used in his other writings and that of the other apostles.
D said: **The Galatians had turned away from the gospel of Jesus Christ, and returned to Jewish customs and the ceremonial law. This was a denial of Christ, and would lead them to lose their souls.
Tom said: The Galatians were famous for “distorting” the Gospel. They became confused about the law and the Gospel, blending the two together instead of separating and subordinating the law to the Gospel. Thus Paul condemned these Judaizers because they added obedience and Sanctification to the doctrine of JBF alone, thus creating a false and incorrect Gospel.
Luther used the book of Galatians to help expose the false Gospel of the RCC, even as E J Waggoner did the same thing in 1888 for the legalistic and foolish SDA’s. Waggoner tried to show that Uriah Smith’s Gospel was very wrong. And so too his view about the Two Covenants.
But even with the support of Ellen White, 19th century Gospel Reform failed and the Battle Creek denomination self-destructed and the SDA’s almost destroyed. Then the Takoma Park leaders hid this history so that they could repeat the same mistakes as Uriah Smith. With the same tragic results; which was the repudiation of the Gospel at Glacier View in 1980, and the demise of the Three Angels, including the ruin of Ellen White.
Today, it is clear that the modern TSDA’s are as Old Covenant minded, as were the stubborn fools in Galatia, Rome, or Battle Creek. They have embraced one false doctrine after another, with the net effect that they have developed a “wretched” and worthless enterprise that features a false Gospel and wrong Sabbath, as well as a ruined prophet, and an absurd and impossible view of eschatology. Most all that the SDA’s teach must be condemned and repudiated by those that understand the genuine Gospel and the true NC Sabbath.
D said: Paul used strong language, but at this point they were no longer “brothers.” Even at that Paul carried on an extensive dialog with them, calling them in love to return to the gospel.
Tom said: Wrong. Even though Paul was still the Jewish/ Christian brother of Peter, James and Barnabus, he still called them foolish, and condemned them for their false Gospel. He dared them to stand up to his rebuke, and they backed down because they knew they were wrong.
Thus we see no push back from those who had been caught with false doctrine. In fact, Peter writes warmly of Paul and defends his sometime hard to understand teachings as correct.
2Pet. 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
2Pet. 3:15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
2Pet. 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, bin which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
2Pet. 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
The fact of the matter is that Paul called the Galatian Church a bunch of fools and so too some in the Corinthian Church. This was not wrong or unnecessary. You are being very foolish to think otherwise.
Who has “bewitched” you? Who has taught you so much false doctrine and confusion?
D quoted: Eph. 5:17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
D said: **Paul did not call them foolish, but rather warned them against being foolish. He strongly taught them to leave off the old sins of the worldly people around them, and what they themselves used to do. He called them to “walk circumspectly” according to the will of God.
Tom said: Again, Paul is writing to the Christian Church here. He is warning them to understand the teachings of Jesus, and be wise men, not foolish. Which also means that any who do not follow Jesus teachings, are fools.
Eph. 5:15 Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise,
Eph. 5:16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil.
Eph. 5:17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
D quoted 2Tim. 2:23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.
D said: **Tom, you should be interested in this. Paul is not calling anyone a fool, but advising against foolish speculations, which were apparently a problem at that time.
Tom said: Paul is calling anyone a fool that gets into “foolish and ignorant speculations.” Today, this would include the age of the earth. This is a wildly speculative point. It is the Gospel that saves, nothing else. Those who make doctrine out of presumption, or geology, and declare that one must embrace a 6,000-year model are being very foolish.
D quoted Titus 3:3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
D said: **This uses the word “foolish” but does NOT call any one a “fool.” I think you would agree that anyone who did what the verse says, is a fool (with cause).
Tom said: Who taught you how to read? Can you not see that Paul has called himself a fool in this passage? And so too all that were ignorant of the Gospel. How can you not see that?
D quoted Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
D then said: **See under 2 Tim 2:23 above.
Tom said: The SDA’s wasted a number of generations with their foolish discussions about the wedding ring and other worthless points. The problem with the SDA’s is that they don’t know how to deal with the great and important issues. Which they cover up, hide, and censor. Then they try to mask what they have done with a lot of useless focus on behavior and giving. This is all worthless and very foolish.
D quoted James 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
D then said: **A person who believes in “cheap grace” is denying Christ. He is a fool “with cause.”
Tom said: Those who misunderstand the Gospel, refusing to believe, are correctly considered fools by heaven, Jesus, and the apostles. This verse once again shows an apostle calling someone a “fool.” This was supposed to be a sin, but yet it is being done all over the NT by the apostles. Why? Because it is not a sin. Only a fool would say such a thing!
Jesus and the apostles routinely called those that misunderstood, distorted, or rejected the Gospel,- "fools." Which is why Tom Norris correctly called Hub the foolish a fool. This is the proper protocol for Gospel Reform.
Those who believe in hard, Old Covenant grace, like the TSDA’s, are great fools. Unless they repent and embrace the one and only Protestant Gospel, they are doomed.
D quoted 1Pet. 2:15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
D then said: **Paul is here teaching that we must be good citizens. We must keep the laws of the state “under God” meaning that we “ought to obey God rather than man.” This is the will of God. By so doing the “ignorant” opposers of the Gospel are silenced.
Tom said: Peter, not Paul, is also making the point that any who attack the Gospel are fools. This point supports my use of the term, because Hub and all the TSDA’s are great Judaizers. They are very foolish critics of the genuine Gospel.
So we can see that it is hardly wrong to use the term foolish or the word fool. Which means that it was very foolish of Hub to try and use Mat 5: 22 to defend his errors. Anyone that embraces the false Gospel of the Galatians is a great fool, even a condemned one.
D said: **The false gospel of the Galatians was to return to the ceremonial law, circumcision, and rituals. It was to deny what Christ had done on the cross.
Tom said: The false Gospel of the Galatians made obedience to the Moral law part of the Gospel formula. The error of the Galatians, and then the RCC, and then the SDA’s, etc, is to include our Sanctification as part of the Gospel “process” whereby we might be saved. This is a very false and distorted Gospel.
This is why the definition of the Protestant Gospel featured the separation of the law from the Gospel, which is the opposite of the Galatian error.
The Advent Movement is a Protestant Paradigm. Therefore, it must have a Protestant Gospel; the same one as Paul, not the same one as Peter, James, and the Galatian church.
D said: Paul plainly said this was foolish, but it was not an insult. He patiently and clearly and lovingly taught them what was right.
Tom said: Paul insulted the Judaizers every chance he had, even as he blasted the leading apostles, in public, for all to see. Who are you trying to kid here? With red face and blood pressure rising, Paul loudly condemned them to hell, and so too their guardian angels should they dare try to interfere.
Oh Foolish TSDA’s, when will you learn to read the Bible honestly and for good purpose? You are making fools out of your cause, and deservedly so. It is sad to see, but necessary.
D said: Tom, I have taken time to read every verse, and most of them in context. I would hope that you will do the same before you present another long list of verses. I have a concordance too, and know how easy it is to just develop a list of verses. So, please be sure each verse applies to the issue at hand.
Tom said: I think you wasted your time. You have no idea how to read the Bible, much less understand the teachings of Jesus.
Your position about the use of the word fool is as hopeless as it is foolish. You and Hub, and all the TSDA’s remain very confused and wrong about the Gospel teachings of Jesus.
Those who misunderstand the Gospel, reading the Bible only to defend their false doctrines, will find little that disagrees with their views. Such defensive and self-serving Bible Study, is worthless. The outcome is assured, because they will twist the Word to fit their views, ignoring what they don’t like. This is what you have foolishly done here, but to no avail.
The TSDA’s are great fools.
The TSDA's are the modern day Circumcision Party. Their theology mimics the foolish; Old Covenant minded Galatians as well as following the errors of Uriah Smith. Thus Paul would curse the TSDA’s and so too would Luther, even as heaven considers them great fools.
No amount of double-talk about Matt 5: 22 is going to defend the false Gospel of the TSDA’s. No amount of pretending that their views are as good as anyone else’s will work.
The Gospel is not up for debate. It is not a he said she said doctrine. There is only one Gospel, and the TSDA’s do not have it. They have the distorted Gospel of Peter, James, and the Circumcision Party.
Adventist Reform stands for the genuine Gospel of Jesus and Paul, as well as that of Luther, Dr. Ford and the post 1888 Ellen White. It repudiates the false Gospel of the Galatians, Roman Catholics, and of the Battle Creek SDA’s, led by Uriah Smith, and the Takoma Park SDA’s, led by the White Estate.
Only those that repent and embrace the true Gospel are wise. Those that refuse to repent, and continue to stubbornly embrace a false Gospel, are being very foolish and suicidal. They have forfeited Eternal Life.
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”
Matt. 7:28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;
The genuine Gospel is amazing. Too bad so few understand it.
I suggest that the SDA’s stop pretending they have found the Gospel, and go out and secure the real doctrine. There is a man by the name of Desmond Ford that can explain it to them.
If you want to continue to try and defend TA, I suggest that you go to the proper thread, read what has been posted, and then do your best. But understand that many others, like Hub the Foolish, have tried to defend the OC Sabbath, Tithe, and the IJ, etc., but they have ALL failed to make their case. And you will do no better, as evidenced by your foolish misunderstanding of Matt 5:22.
It is time for the SDA’s, no matter what side of the debate they find themselves, to get serious about the issues and the teachings of Jesus. (This includes Hub the Foolish).
It is too late to go backwards, to the Old Covenant, like the TSDA’s urge, nor is the status quo, with its division and doctrinal error, sustainable. The Adventist church must go forward, to the New Covenant, always remaining true to its eschatological mission, and always staying within the confines of the true pillars of the Three Angels Messages.
All the theological debates, from 1844, to 1888 and 1980 must be fully resolved. Why? So that the church can understand what is truth and what is not, and unite on truth, and go forward to the 4th Angels Messsage.
The church should stop all their marketing efforts for new converts, and focus on correcting errors and formulating the final Gospel message, the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18, that will fulfill the destiny of the Advent Movement.
Today the world is closer than ever to the Apocalypse. Many sense this tense situation, and want answers about how the world will end. This is a great opportunity for Adventism, if they will only wake up and seize it. This is their time to rise and shine. This is why they exist; to prepare the church for the great tribulation and the Day of Judgment, which follows.
The Advent Movement of the 21st century is being held hostage to the errors, myths, and corruption of the 3rd Angels Message. This is a great mistake.
Now is the time when the church needs to unite on the fundamentals of the Gospel and the Three Angels Messages and move forward to the 4th and final Message of Rev 18. Such a paradigm shift is not optional.
Adventism must repent of its errors and go forward if it is to survive and do its duty.
It is time.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, the word "Sabbath" originated solely with the Jews. It was originally a day of rest, staying in their tents. Never did God tell man to rest on any day until Sinai. There was never a sabbath or rest day given to Christians. Those who attend church on another day or in accordance with the NT where they met without designation of any specific day.
If you can furnish one, single text in the NT where the Christians were instructed to observe any day, please furnish it. Short of that, there is no NT day given for a special day for worship.
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Elaine, thank you for you short/brief answer. I challenge Tom to beat your 5 line response!!!
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Tom's challenge is always brevity. Reminds me of George Bernard Shaw's response to a letter writer:
"Please excuse the lengthy reply. If I had more time it would have been briefer."
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Although this thread is reserved for those that wish to defend the OC, 7th day Sabbath, there are not many who dare try. Where did all the pro-Sabbatarian SDA’s go?
How strange that the SDA’s refuse the opportunity to defend their great doctrine? And how strange that another competing Sabbath doctrine has emerged to challenge this great pillar of the 3rd Angels Message? Who saw that coming?
What is also strange is the depth of the anti-Sabbatarian animus. There is a crowd that hates the 7th day Sabbath with a satanic passion, as well as all things Adventist. No doubt it is because they have been abused by the SDA’s with their OC Sabbath and false Gospel, etc. But do the many errors of the SDA’s nullify the Gospel teachings of Jesus? Hardly.
Adventist Reform not defending or promoting the great Sabbath error of the SDA’s. So the anti-Sabbath critics are very disoriented and confused about what is a taking place. They too are stunned to see a new Gospel Sabbath emerging, even as their tried and true attacks against the Gospel Sabbath no longer make any sense.
While we are waiting for the SDA’s to come online and defend their doctrine of the OC Sabbath, let’s see what the anti-Sabbatarian critics have to say:
Elaine said: Tom, the word "Sabbath" originated solely with the Jews.
Tom said: Correct. The Sabbath is a Jewish term and doctrine. But so too is the Gospel! The Gospel is a Jewish doctrine, 100%. So what have you proven against the Sabbath by claiming it “Jewish”? Nothing.
The only general distinction to be made about Bible doctrine is not whether it is “Jewish” or not, but whether it is Old Covenant or New Covenant.
There is no doubt that the Sabbath doctrine is part of the Jewish creation story, and then part of Old Covenant Judaism. Thus the weekly Sabbath is one of the oldest doctrines in the world. It is still being practiced today in a number of forms, (Sunday and the 7th day) by BILLIONS of people in all the many denominations.
While the Sabbath is a Jewish doctrine, so too are both Covenants, the Church and the Gospel. This is why all Christians must become “spiritual Jews” in order to enter the kingdom of God. The NC is a Jewish paradigm, just like the OC. There is no Gentile doctrine in the church and there will never be any Gentile doctrine in the church.
Rom. 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Rom. 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
Rom. 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom. 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom. 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom. 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom. 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
Eph. 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands
Eph. 2:12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph. 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
Rom. 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
The Christian Faith equals NC Judaism. While few understand this fact, it is one nonetheless. Therefore, no one should run away from any doctrine because it is Jewish. Which means that the SDA’s can stop pretending that the Sabbath is not Jewish.
Listen to Doug Batchlor try to claim that the Sabbath is not Jewish;
Wasn't the Sabbath only made for the Jews? This falsehood has gained such strength that multitudes of Christians refer to it as the "Jewish Sabbath." But nowhere do we find such an expression in the Bible. It is called "the sabbath of the Lord," but never "the sabbath of the Jews."
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/faq/frequen … -jews.aspx
This idea that the Sabbath is not Jewish is an irrelevant and incorrect point. It is not a defense for any Christian doctrine because all Gospel doctrine, including the NC Sabbath, is Semitic. There are no Gentile doctrines in the church, and any that are found, like the Sunday Sabbath, are fraudulent.
So the anti-Sabbatarians are going to have to find another place to make their attack because this point supports the proposition that there is a Sabbath for the church. Because ALL church doctrine is Jewish, and so too the Bible, Jesus and his apostles.
Let all the anti-Sabbatarians stop making fools of themselves. The Gospel and the NC Sabbath are indeed Jewish forever.
Elaine said: It was originally a day of rest, staying in their tents.
Tom said: The OC Sabbath was full of many rules and regulations against work for most of the Jews, BUT NOT ALL. Working on the Sabbath was a capitol offense, EXCEPT for the Jewish Priests. They had an EXEMPTION from these rules. And this exemption becomes the theological bases for the NC, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath.
Let all understand: there is an OC, 7th day Sabbath, and there is a NC, 7th day Sabbath. This is a simple truth that is clearly taught in the Bible. It is a grave error to not understand this necessary distinction.
Elaine said: Never did God tell man to rest on any day until Sinai.
Tom said: First, the OT is clear that the Sabbath doctrine existed before the law was given on Mt Sinai.
This explains why the Sabbath commandment starts off with “Remember,” and why the Sabbath doctrine was active in the Israelite camp BEFORE God spoke it on Mt Sinai.
Ex. 16:28 Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions?
Ex. 16:29 “See, the LORD has given you the sabbath; therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.”
Ex. 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.
Then comes the giving of the Sabbath Law.
Ex. 20:8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Second, not everyone had the same Sabbath doctrine in Judaism. The Priests were not told to rest on the Sabbath. Rather, they had work to perform and thus the rules about not working were not part of their Sabbath doctrine. The Priests had a very active, working Sabbath, and this is the basis for the NC Sabbath, where all in the church are Priests of God, even as Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, is our High Priest.
Elaine said: There was never a sabbath or rest day given to Christians.
Tom said: Wrong. You act as if the first “Christians” were not Jews. But they were all 100% Jewish. No Gentiles were allowed in the church for a number of years.
Therefore, there was an OC Sabbath given to the Jews by God and Moses, and there was also a Gospel Sabbath given to them all by Jesus.
Thus the first Christians had two versions of the Sabbath to choose between. It was not a 7th day versus Sunday as the SDA’s pretend, but a non-working, OC Sabbath versus a NC, working Sabbath.
Jesus claimed doctrinal authority over the Sabbath, even as he reformed it for the apostolic church and invented a new Sabbath, where all are now Priests of God.
So you are wrong. The NC, 7th day Sabbath, was given to the (Jewish) Church by Christ. Any that deny such a plain fact of the NT, are not following Christ. They are not Christian nor educated about the Gospel or the contents of the NT.
Moreover, the history of the Christian Church refutes your anti-Sabbatarian position. The Jewish Church observed the 7th day Sabbath as the Lord’s Day, exclusively, even as Christ taught his disciples the proper way to view and behave on the Gospel Sabbath.
The Sabbath debates between Jesus and the Jewish leaders represent the clash between the Old and New Covenant Sabbaths, with the latter being the correct Sabbath for the church and the former for OC Judaism. The day is the same, but the doctrine is very different.
The fact that the Gentile church later embraced the 1st day of the week for their Sabbath, is beside the point. They did so not only to separate from the Jews, but also because they knew that the Moral law is still binding on the church, and that Jesus teaches a NC Sabbath for the church.
Which is why BILLIONS of Christians have observed the weekly Sabbath doctrine of the Jews, even if it is on Sunday, (which is a mistake), to this very day. BILLIONS of people have embraced, and still embrace, the fact that there is a Sabbath for the church. The critics have zero chance at changing such a correct and functional tradition by destroying the doctrine of the weekly Sabbath.
Today, those anti-Sabbatarian critics that claim there is “No Sabbath” for the church, are misreading the NT and ignoring church history. This “no Sabbath” idea is absurd, impractical, and impossible. Those that support the Sunday Sabbath as the Lord’s Day primarily use it as a ploy to attack the 7th day Sabbath.
This is why the loudest anti-Sabbatarian critics, meaning anti-7th day critics, are former SDA’s. Starting with Canright, the greatest of all the anti-Sabbatarians. He left the SDA’s to pastor a Sunday keeping church, as do many former SDA’s today.
Of course the greatest of all anti-Sunday critics are the SDA’s. They trash the Sunday keepers, and thus they get attacked in return. But this Sabbatarian war has been a big waste of time because both sides are wrong. And so too the foolish critics that have also failed to figure out the genuine Gospel Sabbath of the NT.
Elaine said: If you can furnish one, single text in the NT where the Christians were instructed to observe any day, please furnish it. Short of that, there is no NT day given for a special day for worship.
Tom said: The NT is Jewish and so too Jesus and the Gospel. So there are going to be many passages where Jesus teaches the church about the Sabbath.
If there were no such instruction in the NT, then it would be correct to conclude that there is “no special day for church worship.” But there is plenty of instruction from Christ, in all 4 Gospels, about the NC Sabbath. It is impossible to miss.
But not if one is blind. Then it is easy, and normative, to overlook many things. This is the great sin of Laodicea, their failure to see the Gospel and hear the voice of the Good Shepherd.
Sabbath Instruction in the NT
Those that embrace the genuine Gospel teaching of Jesus cannot overlook or ignore his Reformed, active Sabbath that is featured in all four Gospels. (By contrast, the birth of Jesus is only mentioned in two of the four Gospels.)
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … bath-2.htm
Moreover, Jesus teaches, in the context of his Reformed Sabbath, that those who truly follow him will understand his active Sabbath doctrine and follow his Gospel, just like sheep know and follow their Sheppard’s.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
As the debate over Jesus new Gospel Sabbath played out, some thought he was crazy. But others were impressed with the works that Jesus did on the Sabbath. Thus a great division took place about the Sabbath and the Gospel.
John 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.
John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”
John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”
Jesus Sabbath exploits confused the people and angered the religious leaders. No Jew had never heard of such an active and guilt-free Sabbath, much less one that could be defended in the name of God by this so -called Messiah. Thus Jesus REFORMED Sabbath doctrine played a featured and critical role in his Gospel teachings, even as it shocked and stunned them all.
John 10:24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.
The Jews refused to consider Jesus proposed changes to the Sabbath, or that he was from God. The Jewish leaders did not want a Sabbath breaking Messiah, much less one that would democratize the priesthood, do away with the Levites and subordinate the Temple to the authority of a congregation that followed him as the Messiah. Thus they rejected his dramatic works of healing because they were done on the Sabbath, concluding that his powers were from the Devil, not God, and so too all his strange, New Covenant views.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”
John 10:31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
If Jesus refrained from healing on the Sabbath, things would have gone much better for him. His healing would be seen as a sign from God. But his insistence to break the law and heal on the Sabbath, in public for all to see, could not be tolerated.
But the preaching of the New Covenant compelled Jesus to demonstrate the Gospel through this prohibited action, thus confronting the Old Covenant and reforming the Sabbath for all to see. To understand the different Sabbaths from each Covenant is to understand the law and the Gospel correctly. A false Sabbath equals a false Gospel and so too a correct Sabbath associated with the true Gospel.
Jesus purposefully made it a point to heal on the 7th day in order to promote and market his reformed, NC, Gospel Sabbath. He was breaking the rules on purpose, in front of everyone, even as he was promoting a very different Sabbath and Priesthood for all those that followed him.
John 10:32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
The Jews were not angry with Jesus because he healed, but rather, because he healed ON THE SABBATH. To make matters worse, he claimed that God instructed him to reform the Sabbath doctrine by doing many good works on the 7th day. But the Jews reasoned that the true God would never allow the law to be broken. So Jesus had to be a fraud, and his mighty miricles from the Devil. Case closed. The law and the Sabbath have been protected, and the Gospel repudiated.
Mark 3:2 They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him.
The Jewish leaders were outraged at such a major change to the law, much less by someone who claimed to be the Son of God. They did not understand nor embrace this new Gospel, and neither does anyone today that repudiates the Gospel Sabbath as taught by Christ in all four Gospels. To understand the Sabbath correctly is to understand the Gospel. This rule applies not only to the Jews, but to all Laodiceans, including the SDA's.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
It is beyond debate that a Christian is to follow the teachings of Christ. This is why his followers are called “Christians.” Because they follow the teachings of Christ. And this includes his Sabbath teaching, which was very controversial and led directly to his death.
So what does Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath teach about the Sabbath? That it is now Sunday? Or that it is a great sin to work on the 7th day as the SDA’s teach? Or that he is now the Sabbath? Or that there is no weekly Sabbath at all for the church?
What do the Gospels teach about the Sabbath? THIS is the question that you have really asked. Too bad you have not taken the time to understand the teachings of Jesus about the Gospel and the Sabbath.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm
Bob 2 said: Elaine, thank you for you short/brief answer. I challenge Tom to beat your 5 line response!!!
Tom said: It is very strange that any Christian would support the views of those that think the Gospel Story is myth and fable.
Since when do the agnostics and unbelievers get praise for their confused and dismissive anti-Gospel views from anyone that claims to follow Christ?
2John 7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
2John 8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
2John 9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
2John 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
2John 11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.
Elaine said: Tom's challenge is always brevity.
Tom said: There is no such Gospel doctrine as “brevity.” Rather, the “challenge” for all is to find saving FAITH, being able to understand Gospel truth from the legion of myths and errors that have overwhelmed the last church.
Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Elaine said: Reminds me of George Bernard Shaw's response to a letter writer: "Please excuse the lengthy reply. If I had more time it would have been briefer."
Tom said: In this Gospel discussion, there is no use quoting atheists or mystics like GBS. While he was a vegetarian and pacifist, he rejected the Gospel, claiming that God does not really exist as the church teaches.
In a 1909 letter to Leo Tolstoy, Shaw explained: "To me God does not yet exist; but there is a creative force struggling to evolve an executive organ of godlike knowledge and power; that is, to achieve omnipotence and omniscience; and every man and woman born is a fresh attempt to achieve this object.
We are here to help God, to do his work, to remedy his whole errors, to strive towards Godhead ourselves." In its odyssey to achieve fruition, the life force would create ever-higher forms of humanity--supermen, super-supermen, supermen to the third power: "When one instrument is worn out, I will make another, and another, and another, always more and more intelligent and effective."
http://www.adherents.com/people/ps/Geor … _Shaw.html
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/gbs.htm
GBS knew so little about the Gospel, that his views have no place in this discussion. Rather, it is the views of Jesus and his apostles that hold the ultimate authority. They must be quoted, understood, and believed.
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris for Sabbath Reform in the Church
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John said:
The Jews were not angry with Jesus because he healed, but rather, because he healed ON THE SABBATH. To make matters worse, he claimed that God instructed him to reform the Sabbath doctrine by doing many good works on the 7th day. But the Jews reasoned that the true God would never allow the law to be broken. So Jesus had to be a fraud, and his mighty miricles from the Devil. Case closed. The law and the Sabbath have been protected, and the Gospel repudiated.
John, the very verse you quote before the above statement shows your lack of decernment. Notice:
John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
The Pharisees were upset that He claimed to be God, where is the Sabbath mentioned? This is really what the Jews in Acts 18 were angered by and abused Paul for claiming Jesus to be the Messiah. He was worshipping on the Sabbath in their Synagogue, Paul did not judge the Jews on their continuation of Sabbath worship but left when they could not accept Christ as Messiah, something that did not fit there vision of a conquerer over Rome.
Acts 18:5 When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah. 6 But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”
Christ clarified how the OC Sabbath was to be kept but that was not NC tenets but correction of OC Sabbath keeping.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-01-11 5:20 pm)
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Tom, where in the New Covenant is a Reformed Sabbath spoken of? Where is a 24 hour period commanded to be kept in any manner. Col 2:16-17 ; Heb 4: 9
I went to a version of the Bible that I usually don't use for "study" and got these words:
Heb4: 8-11 The Message Version - And so this is still a live promise. It wasn't canceled at the time of Joshua; otherwise, God wouldn't keep renewing the appointment for "today." The promise of "arrival" and "rest" is still there for God's people. God himself is at rest. And at the end of the journey we'll surely rest with God. So let's keep at it and eventually arrive at the place of rest, not drop out through some sort of disobedience.
Notice
John 5: 16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17 Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
If Sabbath, rest, and work are to be understood from these verses, God is already in a state of rest that we will attain only when saved and in heaven.
Tom, try putting Heb 4:9 through Stong's Lexicon, and get the real meaning of a Sabbath-rest as used in that verse.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-02-11 1:14 am)
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Still no SDA’s willing to defend their doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath?
Apparently not. How interesting.
But the anti-Sabbatarian critics are still on the attack. Here comes one of the no Sabbath crowd, trying their best to attack the Gospel Sabbath and remove the Sabbath from the church.
Bob claims Tom Norris is not properly “discerning” the Sabbath teachings of the NT. Let’s see if he has anything worthwhile to contribute?
Bob2 wrote: John said: “The Jews were not angry with Jesus because he healed, but rather, because he healed ON THE SABBATH. To make matters worse, he claimed that God instructed him to reform the Sabbath doctrine by doing many good works on the 7th day.”
“But the Jews reasoned that the true God would never allow the law to be broken. So Jesus had to be a fraud, and his mighty miracles from the Devil. Case closed. The law and the Sabbath have been protected, and the Gospel repudiated.”
Tom said: What Bob meant to write is; “Tom said.” This is not a quote from John the apostle, but from Tom Norris about the Sabbath, from the last post. But it is true, nonetheless.
No doubt an innocent mistake, but one that speaks to a general lack of detail and discernment from the “No Sabbath” crowd. The more they attack the Gospel Sabbath, the more desperate, dishonest, and irrational their views appear.
Bob2 said: John, the very verse you quote before the above statement shows your lack of decernment. Notice:
John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
Bob2 said? The Pharisees were upset that He claimed to be God, where is the Sabbath mentioned?
Tom said: Once again, “John” should read, Tom. Bob2 needs to try and pay more attention to the details if wants to try and score any points. Not only is he shooting blanks, he is doing so in a very clumsy manner.
As for John 10: 33, this is hardly the only place where the Gospel Sabbath is discussed in John’s Gospel. All the Gospels are full of Jesus debating and teaching about the Sabbath, and so too this passage which deals with the man born blind, starting with John 9.
In fact, listen as Jesus, the self-proclaimed light of the world, makes it clear that he “must” work on the Sabbath in order for the blind to see the Gospel.
John 9:1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
John 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?”
John 9:3 Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
John 9:5 “While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”
The Sabbath debates actually started much earlier in John, even as Jesus makes it clear that those who follow his Gospel Sabbath, must “continue in his word” and repudiate the religious leaders, with their OC Sabbath. So one needs to read all the Sabbath debates in context, and not pull out a text here and there to make a point.
John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
John 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
These words are in context of the Reformed Sabbath. But even before this, Jesus heals on the Sabbath and causes a great uproar.
John 5:6 When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he had already been a long time in that condition, He *said to him, “Do you wish to get well?”
John 5:7 The sick man answered Him, “Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, but while I am coming, another steps down before me.”
John 5:8 Jesus *said to him, “Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.”
John 5:9 Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk. Now it was the Sabbath on that day.
John 5:10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
Jesus claims his Gospel Sabbath comes from God. But the Jews could not understand how God would allow anyone to break the Sabbath in such a bold and public manner. If Jesus were really from God, he would wait until the Sabbath was over before he did the work of a healer.
But Jesus refused. He used the Sabbath to showcase his new Gospel, which included a working Sabbath where all were guiltless for working on the Sabbath.
Notice how Jesus keeps using the term “work.” He was deliberately working on the Sabbath for all to see, even as he claimed he was following the instruction of God. Thus Jesus’ active, working Gospel Sabbath was unveiled early on in John, even as it is repeated throughout the book to make sure no one misses this surprising new doctrine.
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever 1the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
John 5:20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.
John 5:21 “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
John 5:22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
John 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
These words from Jesus are about the Gospel Sabbath. And so too many others in the Gospels. What a pity that so few have any idea what Jesus is really teaching. And the SDA’s are the worst of all. They are blind to what Jesus is really teaching about the Sabbath and all else.
Those that reject the working, Gospel Sabbath of Christ, dishonor Jesus and God. Those who think there is no Sabbath for the church, or that it is Sunday or that it is to be kept holy by not working, have misunderstood the Gospel and the Sabbath. They do not have Eternal Life, nor will they pass the Judgment.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Today, as the Gospel Sabbath emerges, all will have to make a choice to follow Jesus or not. Just like in the 1st century, the fate of the Jews was determined by their reaction to Christ and to his Gospel Sabbath, so too with the last church. These legalistic, 1st century Sabbatarians obviously failed to understand, and so too many today. Pity.
Bob2 said: This is really what the Jews in Acts 18 were angered by and abused Paul for claiming Jesus to be the Messiah. He was worshipping on the Sabbath in their Synagogue, Paul did not judge the Jews on their continuation of Sabbath worship but left when they could not accept Christ as Messiah, something that did not fit there vision of a conquerer over Rome.
Tom said: The Jews, in general, refused to believe the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath. But some did. In fact, Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, was such a Jew, and he joined with Paul and embraced the Gospel. Which means he repudiated the OC Sabbath and embraced the active Gospel Sabbath of Christ. And so too did many of the Gentiles in Corinth.
Acts 18:5 But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ.
Acts 18:6 But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”
Acts 18:7 Then he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue.
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.
Paul stayed in Corinth for the next 6 months, living next to the synagogue, teaching the Gospel, which included the working Gospel Sabbath.
Bob2 said: Christ clarified how the OC Sabbath was to be kept but that was not NC tenets but correction of OC Sabbath keeping.
Tom said: WRONG! The OC Sabbath does not allow work, except by the Priests. Period. Jesus did not pretend that there was no 4th Commandment or deny that there was a Sabbath doctrine given to the Jews through Moses. Rather he found an exemption to the OC rules against work on the Sabbath. Thus he developed a different, NC Sabbath for those that would follow his Gospel and become Priests of God.
So the Gospel Sabbath is not a denial of the OC Sabbath, but rather, it represents a different, New Covenant paradigm, which is based on the Priesthood of all Believers, and where “good works” replace “no work.” Thus the “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the Jews was meant to give way to a better Sabbath.
Those who hear the voice of Jesus and understand his Gospel words, will embrace his 7th day, active, Gospel Sabbath. They will not be like the unbelieving Jews, or the SDA’s, and think it wrong to work on the Sabbath. Nor will they make up doctrines that say there is no Sabbath for the church, or that it is now Sunday.
The Gospel cannot be understood properly without also understanding the difference between the OC and NC Sabbath doctrines. Those today that fight against the Gospel Sabbath, are playing the role of the unbelieving Jews who also repudiated Jesus and God.
The Gospels contain passage after passage about the REFORMED Gospel Sabbath of Christ. These Sabbath debates make it easy for anyone to understand that the SDA’s have the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath, and so too everyone else. Thus all need to study the NT and learn the Gospel Sabbath from Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath and Savior of the world.
Although the SDA’s have made a mess of things, like the Jews they so closely emulate, they were correct to understand the need of Sabbath Reform prior to the 2nd Coming. Too bad that they have followed the errors of the unbelieving Jews. They need to repent and embrace the Gospel, as well as the Gospel Sabbath, and complete their mission of Sabbath Reform.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Tom Norris for genuine Sabbath Reform in the church
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Tom, the Jews can certainly defend the Sabbath, but you have failed to give one single NT text showing that Christians were EVER told, instructed, commanded, or shown the importance of any day to be observed. Unless and until you can do so, all is loud brass and tinking cymbals signifying nothing. Either PU or SU; fish or cut bait; show your cards.
Last edited by elaine (01-02-11 7:15 pm)
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You seem to go to Jesus example as our example. The simplicity of that shows again a lack of discernment. Christ was born under the OC and had to live to its standards until He died. New Covenant believers are to live by better primises:
Hebrews 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-02-11 8:48 pm)
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You seem to go to Jesus example as our example. The simplicity of that shows again a lack of discernment.
What are remarkable statement to come from a "Christian"
John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
I Cor. 11:1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
It seems your anti All-things-Adventism is driving you out of the Christian fold. Mind your steps, my friend.
Christ is indeed out example; this role none other can do better. It may not be in the warped sense traditional Adventism likes to spin it (i.e. we must follow his pattern is some twisted hope that by the "power of Holy Spirit" we might attain to a "sinless life" and in so doing be "ready" for the time of Jacob's trouble and ultimately salvation). But He is our example nonetheless.
To miss, dismiss, or even marginalize this point is to miss a chief attribute of Christianity.
Last edited by Dexter (01-03-11 1:58 pm)
Let every lamp be burning bright, the darkest hour is nearing...
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Dexter, do you breed your own "turtle doves" or purchase them on the way to the "Temple"??? (Luke 2: 41,42.) Make fun, but you need to read with a little more thought. Jesus celebrated all the Jewish festivals and gave animal offerings. Oh that's right, SDA selectively pare down the OC to the ceremonial, civic and moral so it fits what they created back in the 1850s. Wonder why EGW discontinued "holy laughter" and believing in the "shut door" policy? Maybe you can shed some light on that.
What do you do with Hebrews 8:13???? Something changed at Christ's death, but you have all the Jewish laws to deal with if you have one you are keeping.
The SDA view of EGW reminds me of the movie, "Groundhog Day", do the same day or doctrine over and over again until it works for the SDAs worldview.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-03-11 3:40 pm)
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Elaine said: Tom, the Jews can certainly defend the Sabbath, but you have failed to give one single NT text showing that Christians were EVER told, instructed, commanded, or shown the importance of any day to be observed.
Tom said: First off, there are many passages in the Gospels where Jesus discusses the importance of the Sabbath day and instructs Christians how to act on this day. We have discussed many of these texts over and over. Doesn’t your NT contain these Sabbath passages? Mine does.
Moreover, while the Jews did try and defend their OC Sabbath from Jesus strange Reforms, they did not succeed in changing his mind about the NC, active Sabbath, which is so clearly taught in the Gospels. So the Jews DID defend their Sabbath, even as they killed Christ for breaking the Sabbath law and then claiming God told him to do it. But Christ never backed down from his reformed, working Sabbath that he teaches in all four Gospels.
While the “No Sabbath” crowd claims there is no Sabbath instruction from Christ, and so too the agnostics, like yourself, who cares what the spiritually blind and confused think? Not me.
People believe all manner of myth and confusion about religion, and so it will always be. But those standing outside the Kingdom of God do not see things honestly or clearly, much less with theological, Gospel precision. They do not understand history or hermeneutics or the fundamentals of Protestant theology, much less the Gospel teaching of Christ about the Sabbath.
Second, all the early Christians WERE JEWS and so too is all Christian doctrine, forever. Unless you understand and accept these two historical and theological facts, you will never understand the NC Sabbath, much less the proper relationship between the law and the Gospel as represented by the Two different Covenants.
Jesus NC Sabbath instruction to the Jews, is Gospel doctrine for the Christian Church,- in all ages as well as today. No matter how many Gentiles entered the church, or how many Jews refused to do so, Jesus teaching about the Gospel Sabbath is for the church, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile believers, both of which must become “spiritual Jews” through the New Birth.
Jesus’ 1st century Sabbath teaching, as recorded in the Gospels, and supported by the writings of the rest of the NT, is doctrine for the church TODAY. To say otherwise is to misunderstand the NT and repudiate Christ.
The Sabbath instruction by Christ in the Gospels is what the church must follow, - if they are really following the Good Sheppard that is. To pretend that no such doctrine exists for the church is absurd, dishonest, and blasphemous. The NT is full of Jesus teaching about the NC Sabbath. Which is why the church has always, even to this very day, embraced a weekly, NC Sabbath, even if it is on Sunday.
Those today that read the NT honestly, will have no problem understanding the Gospel Sabbath. As a result, those of Faith will only embrace the 7th day, active Sabbath, as taught by Christ, the Good Sheppard and the Light of the world. They will repudiate all that teach a false Christ and a false Gospel Sabbath.
Jesus is the head of the church. His instruction about the Sabbath and all else, is for the church and for those that expect Eternal Life. Those that think otherwise, are cut off from the Kingdom of God.
Let all the critics and unbelievers, as well as those so confused that they have embraced the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath, (7th or 1st day), consider their fate and repent, if they are able.
Matt. 10:33 “But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
Matt. 11:26 “Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.
Matt. 11:27 “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
Elaine said: Unless and until you can do so, all is loud brass and tinkling cymbals signifying nothing. Either PU or SU; fish or cut bait; show your cards.
Tom said: I cannot heal the blind or make anyone embrace Gospel doctrines that people don’t want to see.
This is why Jesus did not preach his Gospel to the Gentiles. They had no context or background in Jewish theology or prophecy, nor did they care anything about the Jews. So the Gospel, which is a Jewish paradigm, had to start with the Jews and become established before it could be marketed to the Gentiles.
Matt. 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;
Matt. 10:6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matt. 10:7 “And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’
Confused Gentiles
Today, the Gentiles are very confused and wrong about the Gospel Story. This is why they have embraced the error of Sunday, as well as many other myths. And why the Laodicean Church is viewed as the worst in history, needing to repent of their legions of false doctrine.
For example, the so-called NC theology crowd, which are all Sunday Keepers, claim that Jesus teaches 90% of the Moral law; omitting any instruction about the Sabbath. Thus the “law of Christ” has no Sabbath doctrine, and consequently, neither does the church.
But this is an absurd, dishonest, and irrational proposition that is clearly refuted by the facts. The Gospels are full of Jesus teaching about the NC Sabbath. How can anyone claim otherwise? Facts are facts, and even more so, an obvious one like this.
Many have been, and still are, so full of hatred towards the Jews, the Gospel, and or the SDA’s, that they cannot deal honestly with the Sabbath. They are blind to what Jesus really teaches about the Gospel Sabbath and many other things, even as they think their futile criticisms are valid when they are worthless.
It is a serious thing to ignore, refute, and misstate the teaching of Jesus and his apostles. Those that act in such an irresponsible manner, twisting and suppressing the Word to make it say what they want, will never understand the Gospel. And neither will those that have reduced the Gospel Story to myth and fairy tale.
Only those who consider the Gospel Story real, and respect the Word, paying close attention to the teachings of Jesus will be saved. Those that play games don’t have a prayer.
Bob of the “No Sabbath” view, who has joined with the Agnostic Elaine, said; “Tom, You seem to go to Jesus example as our example. The simplicity of that shows again a lack of discernment.”
Tom said: While Jesus does not teach that we must become healers on the 7th day, like him, he does teach about a new and very different Sabbath for his church. Those that want to follow him must do so, not just pretend, and then do the opposite of what he teaches.
Jesus is the head of the church and its' leading theologian. He has laid out the theological justification for his NC Sabbath, making sure that this new doctrine supports the Moral law as well as the Priesthood of all believers, which the OC Sabbath did not.
I repeat: to be a Christian is to follow the teachings of Christ in all things, not just the Sabbath. I don’t know how such a simple point became lost on so many. To follow Christ is to follow his Gospel Sabbath.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
Who dares refute the teachings of Jesus about the Sabbath or any other point? The Agnostics? The Sunday Keepers? The SDA legalists?
Any that oppose the 7th day Gospel Sabbath are uneducated at best or spiritually blind at worst. The Gospel Sabbath is a rock solid doctrine, even as it represents the culmination of historic SDA Sabbath Reform and the key to prophetic advancement for the last church.
Thread for the SDA’s
This thread is for the pro-Sabbatarians; for the SDA’s that embrace the non-working, OC Sabbath. It is not for the Sabbath haters and for those that claim the Gospel is myth. They have many other threads to make fools of themselves and blaspheme.
However, this thread is for those that agree there is a 7th day Sabbath for the church, and that it is very important for this doctrine to be understood correctly by the last church.
It is also for those that want to transition away from the OC Sabbath to the NC version that has been waiting all these years to be better recognized and understood.
Bob said: Christ was born under the OC and had to live to its standards until He died. New Covenant believers are to live by better promises:
Tom said: You speak nonsense, error, and double-talk. Who said that Christ was an OC figure? And that he “had to live by the standards and rules” of the OC Jews?
If this were true, then Jesus would not have gone around breaking the Sabbath, over and over in public defiance of the religious leaders, much less overturning the furniture in the Temple accounting department, and condemning the Jews, etc. Unless you think such behavior is part of normal OC doctrine?
Jesus introduced and injected the NC into Judaism, and thus he created the Gospel and the church. In the process, Jesus refuted the OC Sabbath and developed a NC version for the church. This is a historic and theological fact that cannot be denied by anyone.
Those who follow Jesus, and claim Eternal Life, must also follow his NC, Gospel Sabbath. This should not be a difficult point to understand, much less embrace, because this new, “light and easy” Sabbath is full of freedom, with no guilt for any that work on the 7th day.
Matt. 11:27 “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
Matt. 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
Matt. 11:29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
Matt. 11:30 “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Matt. 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.
Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
Christ represents the NC Gospel, and so too his favorite doctrine, the Sabbath. While born under the laws of Judaism, he broke from the OC when he started his Gospel ministry. Here is when he teaches a very different, very public, NC view of the Kingdom of God. Thus the Gospels represent his NC teaching for the church, which clearly includes a reformed, 7th day, active Sabbath.
Jesus was the first NC believer. His Gospel teachings define the Christian Faith, including his teaching about the 7th day Sabbath. Those so-called Christians that refute what he teaches are pretenders, fooling only themselves. There are many frauds like this.
Christ is a NC figure, and so too is the Gospel, which is always accompanied by his reformed, active, Gospel Sabbath. There is no sense for anyone to pretend that Jesus did not teach his church the 7th day Gospel Sabbath. The record is clear and can be read by all that want to see.
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Let’s leave this thread open for the SDA’s to try and defend their OC Sabbath.
Let’s see if they can do better than the anti-Sabbatarians at refuting the 7th day Gospel Sabbath?
Tom Norris for the Sabbath Reform in the church
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Tom,
I am very aware of Jesus' observing Sabbath, after all, He was born, lived and died a Jew.
Paul was the one who began the Christian movement with very careful, but few instructions. There was never instruction to the Gentiles, former pagans, to observe any day. The Jews continued to observe their special days, but none were given the new Christians.
There were few instructions given to Christians of which you are very aware. Unless, and until you can furnish one single text informing the new Christians how to practice their belief, it is useless to give Jesus' example.
The Gospels were written much later than Paul's letters and Jesus always adressed Jews, never the Gentiles because He was sent to the "House of Israel" and even instructed His disciples not to go to the Gentiles.
Without Paul, there would be no Christians, only another sect of Judaism, of which there were already several.
Christianity ONLY began after the Resurrection, and before the end of the first century were meeting on the first day in honor of, and celebrating the Resurrection day. There was never a mandate, command, instruction, or any attempt to inform the Gentile Christians of the importance of worshiping on any day.
By the end of the first century, A.D., there is no history of the Jewish/Christians. It became from that date, a Gentile Christian movement. There are many early church fathers who recorded their meetings on the first day of the week in honor of the Resurrection. Never a word about observing the seventh day.
Repeating the day Jesus observed, is only saying that Jews for several millennia have observed Shabbat. In this respect, Adventism is a hybrid of Judaism and Christianity: attempting to straddle both and becoming neither.
The old SDA evangelists used to ask their audiences to find a text supporting Sunday. Of course, that is impossible. But they never asked their audiences to find a NT text that gave Christians any day to observe. Can you?
Last edited by elaine (01-03-11 8:23 pm)
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elaine, it depends of course on whether you believe taht any of Jesus' statements to his disciples, or indeed to any of his listeners was intended for Christians.
I understand that your view is that Jesus wasn't a Christian and so isn't bearing on Christianity (and, indeed, irrelevant to it, apart from any mentions by Paul). That's a pretty common view- others have said here, for example, that jesus' command to turn the other cheek has no bearing on Christians' lives.
So, it really depends on whether Christ has a place in Christianity or not. You believe he doesn't, and that's your prerogative. So, of course, any of Jesus' statements will be seen as irrelevant.
(I am not claiming that belief in the Sabbath necessarily follow from belief that Christ is binding as either a God/prophet who gives commands or as an example. it isn't- one could argue that the statements that Jesus made weren't specific to the sabbath qua saturday and could apply to any day or place of worship. but my point is that your view precludes such a conversation. And your view with regard to the centrality of Paul and the irrelevance of Christ may in some sense be consistent, but it isn't necessarily the traditional Christian view. For example, the commands to take eucharist - and most of the texts that are quoted during the eucharist- are from the mouth of Christ and spoken to his Jewish disciples. Taking your perspective, one would argue that Christ was commanding his Jewish followers to participate in passover in a specific way, and not making any commands intended to be followed by gentile Christians, but this view would be a very minority view among Christians of any age, from the end of the first century onward. )
I am not saying you are wrong in your conclusion, as I noted, but the notion that Christians have traditionally NOT claimed to follow the example of Christ and to observe at least some of his commands given to his disciples and to other Jews, seems inconsistent with Christian history.
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No, I believe that the PRINCIPLES Jesus gave us are true and reliable for all times. However, as he practiced the Jewish law he never addressed Christians as they were all believers after he died.
Do you agree or disagree that Paul and the apostles abrogated much of Judaism for Christians? Would you eliminate all those writings and be led only by the Gospels? Of what use were the epistles of Paul if not instructing Christians? If Jesus had the last word, although the Gospels were never meant as a Didache for Christians, but only recouting Christ's life while here on earth, of what relevance are all those earlier writings directed toward Christians.
Should we follow Jesus' examples in everything, including his obedience to the Jewish law? Do you believe that the recording of the Decalogue in Deutermony given only to the Israelites is still relevant today? How do you separate the entire Jewish laws, when they never did. They never recognized a separation between Moral and Ceremonial but considered them all to be obeyed, with the guidance of the priests and later rabbis for interpretation.
If you believe the entire Law is valid today, what about the accompanying punishments? Without penalties the law is ineffective. Should Sabbath breakers be put to death? How does one enforce the command not to covet? Or the first three? Remember, in Judaism, beliefs were irrelevant, only practice was required. They were also to stay in their tents on the sabbath day, never commanded to worship. How would the church apply those laws today? Do you believe that those Christians who do not observe the seventh day are breaking God's law? Remember, they had specific things to be avoided; nothing was said about their activities except not to work. Now, define work.
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I was not claiming that Paul was irrelevant. I was merely pointing out that if you get into the habit of saying "well, Jesus was saying that to a Jewish audience" to settle a doctrinal argument, it's kind of a slippery slope. I am not for eliminating Paul, just saying that one has to grapple with what Jesus said and have a way of at least addressing what he said, beyond discounting everything he said to a Jewish audience.
If you weren't doing that, then we don't have an argument. I don't claim that the entire law is valid for Christians, and i certainly don't beleive that Paul is irrelevant. I just don't believe that "well, Jesus was talking to his disciples" is proof that a given statement by Jesus is irrelevant.
As well, and perhaps more to the point, the gospels were produced long after Jesus' death and are widely regarded as being intended to be read by early Christians (with the arguable exception of Matthew). As such, their contents need at least to be addressed.
And, as I said- what's the Christian rationale for the eucharist, if Jesus' statements to his Jewish followers aren't relevant?
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Paul makes it very clear that the Sabbath day and other feast days should not be an issue among Christians. The Gentiles were not required to keep any day but they as well as Jewish Christians were not forbidden to do so.It simply has no spirtual merit either way. Just as with circumcism there may be valid health reasons for doing so but it is off no spiritual value.
I think one area where SDA'scould use some wisdom is to balance the Exodus version of the Ten Commandments with those of Deuteroneny.The latter version sees the Sabbath as symbolic of deliverance from bondage. If one approached Sabbath keeping from that angle it would be a testimony to RBF instead of a works orinated belief system.
I think this is probably what Tom is getting at but he uses so much verbage it is difficult to ferret out what he is saying.
I think Jesus alluded to the deliverance aspect of the Sabbath when He healed those in need on the day.
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I may have over generalized or minimized Christ's example, but because Christ acted per the Old Covenant when it became obsolete at his death, we must realize that He had to comply with the Old Covenant. But per the Sabbath read:
Matt 12: 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.
and
Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-07-11 11:14 pm)
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