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I have sort of taken a Sabbatical of sorts. Sirje I am sorry you feel that all you see here are my words. Let me tell you that is partly your choice.
Notice where I've been and the over 300 pages on this forum on this subject alone. Because SDAs wish to hang on to the Sabbath is why it still isn't settled with that group. EGW and the Ten Commandment are like idols they cling to.
http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbt … 527/1.html
Texts that are not understood, Col 2:16-17 ; Eph 2:11-22; 2 Cor 3:11-18; Heb 8:13 with Exodus 34:28 and one that I learned while on that forum
Luke 24:44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."
It increases one's understanding that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament in it's entirety, anything said about him or shadow of Him.
Last edited by bob_2 (10-08-10 9:09 pm)
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I am more and more convinced from study that the Sabbath was fulfilled by Christ and in His very Flesh becomes our True Rest. Hebrews 4, the Rest that remains, is not the Sabbath, is Jesus Christ here on earth and the Heavenly Rest He is preparing for us. The Old Covennat is Totally obsolete, as similarities to the Old iin the New Covenant is purposely stated, expanded on and the Sabbath fulfilled in Christ. The SDAs have made a god of the Sabbath, and that god has become a paranoid test for the end times.
Rev 14:12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
Every time commandment or law is used in the NT, one must read context. The verse if one looks at Strongs does not mean the 10 Commandments, but commands made in His life and by Him and Apostles after His Ascension. More convinced than before I participated in that discussion. One medical doctor admitted that he was keeping the Sabbath just in case it needs to be kept. How is that for assurance of salvation. My point to him was what iis God holds you accountable for leading people astray and all the time you insisted all its "how to keep" rules.
Last edited by bob_2 (10-09-10 1:45 am)
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Read this from NCT Scholars:
The Law of God
The Essence of All Law
The essence of all Law is summed up in these two commandments, "Jesus replied: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:37-40
The First Law
God, the Creator and Lawgiver, gave Adam the commandment that he must not eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The penalty for disobedience to this commandment was death, while the promise for obedience was life. There is no record in Scripture of God making a Covenant of Works with Adam. Genesis 2:15-17, 1 John 3:4, Romans 6:23
Unrecorded Law
These are the laws that were given to mankind prior to the Mosaic Law that are not specifically recorded in Scripture. One can only assume that these laws were passed down to each succeeding generation. This is sometimes referred to as “Oral Law”. Genesis 4:1-16
The Moral Law
There is no Biblical justification for the use of the term “moral law.” Any law God gives in any era is moral in that to transgress any commandment of God that applies to you is by definition “immoral.”
The Law of the Conscience
This describes that sense of right and wrong that everyone experiences but no one is able to live up to. This law is the result of man being made in the image of God. Even with the sin of Adam and the resulting distortion of God’s image in man there is still some part of that image remaining. This law is not exact and can be distorted. The law of the conscience condemns all men for no one is able to live up to its expectations. Romans 1:26-32, Romans 2:12-16
The Mosaic Law
This is the body of law that was given by the Lord to Moses on Mount Sinai for the nation of Israel. The Ten Commandments are the essence of the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law was binding on the Israelites during the period of time from the giving of the law at Mount Sinai to the ushering in of the New Covenant Era at Pentecost. Exodus 19, 20, Exodus 34:27-28, Deuteronomy 4:12-14, Deuteronomy 9:7-10, Galatians 3:15-25, Hebrews 7:11-19,
Hebrews 8:7-13, Galatians 4:21-31, Acts 2:1-21The Law of Christ
This is the body of law that came through Jesus and the Apostles that is directly applicable to believers today. 1 Corinthians 9:19-23, Galatians 6:1-5, Ephesians 4:25-32
http://ncbf.net/pdf/confession.pdf
Last edited by bob_2 (10-09-10 2:11 am)
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Bob, nice to see you posting here again.
Since you left, the membership has more than doubled. It seems like many are trying to honestly understand the issues as opposed to endlessly arguing and defending error for the fun of it. I hope your return will not have a negative effect on those that are seriously looking for answers.
Also, I see that some other old friends, like Bill Sorensen, the champion of the IJ, has also returned to this discussion. No doubt this is the only place in the world where there is complete freedom to discuss the issues, problems, and solutions of the Advent Movement, without fear of censorship. So I understand why people come back here to vent their frustrations at the SDA church. There are very few places to make such points.
However, I am disappointed that you have not changed your incorrect views about Jesus being the fulfillment of the Sabbath, nor does Bill seem to have backed off from the great error of the IJ. Oh well, each to their own point of view.
Every Day Sabbath
Your position in support of the Every Day Sabbath is obviously in error, because there is no place in the entire Bible where Jesus, or anyone, claimed that he was the fulfillment of the Sabbath, and now there is no weekly Sabbath for the church.
As for your recent post about the law, so what? We are only saved by the Gospel, not the law. I suggest you focus on the GOSPEL, and not the law to try and understand the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. If Jesus teaches an Every Day Sabbath, then that is what all must follow. But he does not; this is the problem, for which you must repent.
While this group you follow is smart enough to understand that Sunday is NOT valid doctrine for the church, they have still misunderstood the genuine Gospel Sabbath, as taught by Christ in all four Gospels.
The Day of Worship
Although the Lord Jesus Christ rose from the dead on the first day of the week, believers are not commanded to meet together on this day. Sunday is not the Christian Sabbath. The Sabbath was a picture of our salvation and has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. The commandment requiring the keeping of the Sabbath day came to an end at the close of the Old Covenant era. In the New Covenant era believers are commanded to gather together with the people of God, the church. Believers are free to gather together on any day of the week. Matthew 28:1-10, Acts 20:27, Colossians 2:6-23, Hebrews 4:1-11, Hebrews 10:24-25
http://ncbf.net/pdf/confession.pdf
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To make matters worse, they have not only missed the 7th day Gospel Sabbath, but they have invented a new doctrine that declares all 7 days HOLY! On what authority does anyone have, except Jesus, to make any day special or holy, much less every day of the year! On whose authority is the Every Day Sabbath taught?
Where does Jesus teach this doctrine?
Jesus teaches that only one day in seven, the 7th day, is special. Thus he did not declare himself the Lord of the Every Day Sabbath, as you claim. Nor did anyone in the apostolic church ever acknowledge or teach this impossible and fictional doctrine. It never happened. So that is the end of the matter.
There is no such doctrine and it is absurd and outrageous to pretend otherwise. The Bible nowhere teaches that all 7 days of the week, and thus every day of the year, are special or holy for the church. Only 1 day in 7 has ever had such a reputation in the JC paradigm, and this fact can never be changed.
So it is not just the SDA’s that make up doctrines and pretend what they teach is correct. Such behavior is epidemic in the church and this nonsense about the “Every Day” Sabbath is just as ludicrous as the SDA myth about the IJ. Both doctrines are impossibly wrong and clearly against the Gospel teachings of Jesus and the NT.
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Worship in the New Covenant Era
In the New Covenant era, all of life is worship and every day is holy for the believer.
Romans 12:1-2, 1 Corinthians 10:31.
http://ncbf.net/pdf/confession.pdf
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Of course you and I have gone over this many times on a number of threads, and you have failed every time to prove your case from the Bible.
The two texts used above to prove the “Every Day” Sabbath hardly proves anything, except that doctrinal fraud is taking place. There is a mountain of evidence from the Bible about this point, and I suggest that you try to take it more seriously. Because this horrible proof texting hermeneutic that is being used to support this nonsense is laughable.
The Every Day Sabbath is a great fraud, just like the Sunday Sabbath or the SDA’s Schoolmaster Sabbath.
At the end of time, those that understand the Gospel and claim Eternal Life, will also embrace the Gospel Sabbath. They will understand the teachings of Jesus and the apostles, and follow them.
Let all beware the false Gospel and false Sabbath.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Interesting Tom, a simple question, and you have no answer. Show me the text in the NT/NC that supports your position of a Reformed Sabbath Day. I also would help if some scholars were behind your position, but you give nothing above to aide your position.
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Bob, there are entire threads devoted to the Reformed Sabbath. They are full of texts that establish the Gospel Sabbath. It is obvious that you, and many others, cannot deal with this issue in an honest manner. I find that interesting, -and sad.
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Further proof from God's Word, Tom of my position:
Heb 4:7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today,
Heb 4: 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
God's rest at the end of the creation week wasn't because He was tired, but it was a conclusion to His creation. So He wants us to have the same sort of "rest" , the new creation we beome in Jesus. When God set that new day, as Today, He is giving one of the better promises of the New Covenant. Joshua was a type, Jesus the antetype of entering rest, the promise land was the type and salvation and heavenly rest the antetype.
Tom, you are welcome to state you postiion but to make declaratory remarks like you are right and I am wrong, state it first so we can judge it. Where after Christ's ascension or even while he was on the earth, is the Sabbath Reformed. While Christ was here, he was under the Old Mosaic Law, and He supported and fulfilled as stated in Luke 24: 44. Now like I said put up or........
Last edited by bob_2 (10-10-10 1:59 am)
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Bob, try to pay attention: Judaism is the OT “barrier.” Which included circumcision, tithing and Old Covenant, “schoolmaster,” Sabbath keeping, Temple worship, etc.
In the NC, the church is the New Israel of God. Jesus is the high priest, and the Gospel Sabbath becomes part of the doctrine of the church, as per the teachings of Jesus in all four Gospels.
Jesus is the head of the church, not the “congregation,” and thus he determines which day is special for the church, even as he defines how the Reformed Sabbath is to be observed.
So forget this nonsense that the “congregation” determines which day is special for the church. Jesus has made this point clear. And it is not up for debate or revision. Which is why the church must repent for being so wrong about the Gospel and the Sabbath.
Those that claim to follow Jesus, must understand his teachings, including his doctrine about the Sabbath. They must be able to correctly read the NT and comprehend the Gospel, as well as the Gospel Sabbath.
Those that cannot see this instruction, are spiritually blind, and doomed, unless somehow their eyes can be opened. At this point, you are a blind man, even though you claim to see very well. Such delusion blinds many.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
Bob said: Further proof from God's Word, Tom of my position: Heb 4:7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, Heb 4: 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
Tom said: Bob, your sabbatical obviously did you no good. You have come back just as wrong and defiant as ever, pretending that your views are credible, when they are laughable. Besides, we have already discussed Hebrews 4, as well as the Sabbath in Colossians. Your views do not stand up to the facts, so I suggest that you study this material again and stop making a fool of yourself over and over.
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopi … 2893#p2893
Bob said: God's rest at the end of the creation week wasn't because He was tired, but it was a conclusion to His creation. So He wants us to have the same sort of "rest" , the new creation we become in Jesus.
Tom said: Stop the double-talk. It is worthless. You are shooting blanks.
Bob said: When God set that new day, as Today, He is giving one of the better promises of the New Covenant. Joshua was a type, Jesus the antetype of entering rest, the promise land was the type and salvation and heavenly rest the antetype.
Tom said: You need to read the thread about the Sabbath in Hebrews and educate yourself about this famous passage. You are very confused and wrong. Sorry.
Bob said: Tom, you are welcome to state you position but to make declaratory remarks like you are right and I am wrong, state it first so we can judge it.
Tom said: Bob, pay attention: You are wrong. If you cannot understand the mountain of evidence that supports the Gospel Sabbath, then I cannot help you. You need to go to another Forum where your views will be welcomed. You are way over your head my friend.
Rom. 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to ceach a measure of faith.
Bob said: Where after Christ's ascension or even while he was on the earth, is the Sabbath Reformed. While Christ was here, he was under the Old Mosaic Law, and He supported and fulfilled as stated in Luke 24: 44.
Tom said: Bob, we have gone over these issues over and over on a number of threads. You have failed to make your absurd case that Jesus has fulfilled the Sabbath and that he is the Sabbath and that now the Sabbath is “every day.” It is all a bunch of theological garbage. Sorry. But you need to grow up, face the facts, and repent.
Bob said: Now like I said put up or........
Tom said: Ha! You are delusional. Your views have been destroyed on a numbers threads for all to see. Only a blind person would think otherwise. So stop pretending that we have anything more to discuss. You have not answered or refuted mountains of evidence, nor will you ever be able to prove your point from the NT. Sorry.
You may need a longer Sabbatical?
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Tom said:
In the NC, the church is the New Israel of God. Jesus is the high priest, and the Gospel Sabbath becomes part of the doctrine of the church, as per the teachings of Jesus in all four Gospels.
Jesus was under the law, what he said about the Sabbath is clarification on Old Covenant way He meant for the Sabbath to be kept until:
Luke 24:44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."
John if your point is so clear, why did Jesus need to open the minds of the disciples. Hadn't he told them about the Reformed Sabbath?? This is about Him as Savior and God. Until you produce the a mole hill of evidence from the mountain of evidence of your position, I have to go by my own study. You call me a prooftexter, let m call you a "notexter" on this issue. PUT OR SHUT UP!!!
Last edited by bob_2 (10-10-10 12:39 pm)
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Bob said: Jesus was under the law, what he said about the Sabbath is clarification on the Old Covenant way He meant for the Sabbath to be kept.
Tom replied: Jesus represents the NEW COVENANT, not the Old. His Sabbath doctrine was so new, stunning, and different that it upset the status quo of 1st century Judaism and led to the development of the Church.
Jesus taught a very different doctrine of the Sabbath. This is why the Jewish leaders became so angry with him and plotted to kill him. Jesus was a great OC Sabbath breaker. He did it on purpose, for great effect. At the end of time, a portion of the Laodicean church will return to the genuine Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath.
Bob quoted: Luke 24:44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
Tom said: While Jesus, as the Messiah, was the fulfillment of many OT prophecies, none of them said he was going to fulfill the Sabbath. Where did Moses or David claim that the Messiah was going to become the fulfillment of the Sabbath? Even to such an extent, that the weekly Sabbath would be removed from Israel?
Bob quoted: 45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."
Tom said: This passage does not say that Jesus in now the Sabbath for the church. Why would you think that? You mind is obviously closed to the Gospel at this point. You do not understand the scriptures. Not good.
Bob said: if your point is so clear, why did Jesus need to open the minds of the disciples. Hadn't he told them about the Reformed Sabbath??
Tom said: The apostles were there when Jesus debated the Sabbath. In fact, the Sabbath debates started as soon as Jesus had gathered his key disciples. So they saw this debate played out, over and over, every week, in each village and synagogue. They had front row seats as the OC and NC Sabbath clashed, throwing off both anger and insight.
Everywhere that Jesus preached the Gospel, he did so within the context of the Reformed Sabbath, which is why there was always so much commotion surrounding the Gospel, and why Jesus had so many enemies. This is also why you never see the OC Sabbath being promoted in the NT. It had been abolished and replaced with the active Gospel Sabbath of Jesus, the Lord of the NC Sabbath.
Mark 1:17 And Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men.”
Mark 1:18 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him.
Mark 1:19 Going on a little farther, He saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who were also in the boat mending the nets.
Mark 1:20 Immediately He called them; and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants, and went away to follow Him.
Mark 1:21 They went into Capernaum; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach.
Mark 1:22 They were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Mark 1:23 Just then there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
Mark 1:24 saying, “What 1business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are — the Holy One of God!”
Mark 1:25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be quiet, and come out of him!”
Mark 1:26 Throwing him into convulsions, the unclean spirit cried out with a loud voice and came out of him.
Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him.”
Mark 1:28 Immediately the news about Him spread everywhere into all the surrounding district of Galilee.
Mark 1:29 And immediately after they came out of the synagogue, they came into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John.
The Gospel Sabbath was a very new, different, and amazing teaching that showcases the Gospel. It was the context for Jesus preaching. Those that reject it, also reject the Gospel.
Bob said: This is about Him as Savior and God.
Tom said: Jesus claims that God taught him the reformed, NC Sabbath. Those that follow Christ will understand and follow him. At this point, the church is doing neither.
Bob said: Until you produce a mole hill of evidence from the mountain of evidence of your position, I have to go by my own study.
Tom said: You obviously do not know how to study the NT. Few people do.
Bob said: You call me a prooftexter; let m call you a "no-texter" on this issue. PUT OR SHUT UP!!!
Tom said: I have put forth scores of texts and passages to support and explain the correct view of the 7th day Gospel Sabbath, including the Sabbath debates in all four Gospels. It is great error to pick random and incoherent verses, all the while avoiding the primary source, which is found in all four Gospels.
There are a number of threads on this site that explain and define the Gospel Sabbath. You have been on all of them. However, you have not refuted any point that has been made, except perhaps in your own mind.
If you cannot stop pretending that your views have not been refuted, then leave. Or at the very least, study more and post less. In fact, you really need to stop promoting this absurd heresy about the Every Day Sabbath. It is nonsense. Sorry.
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Hebrews 9 makes this crystal clear: A covenant is only valid as long as the testator is alive.
Jesus fulfilled the covenant made with the Israelites at Sinai when he gave them the Law--it was His covenant with them and they said "All you said, we will do," of course, immediately breaking it.
In Jeremiah, we read of a new covenant, NOT like the first one, and had that first one been faultless, there would have been no need for a second. "When He said "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete.
If my neighbor and I make a contract to purchase property from him, and after a time, I have completely paid him, the contract is no longer binding: We have both fulfilled that covenant made and the conditions have been fully met
Paul calls the New Covenant NOT of the letter, but of the Spirit; and the letters engraved on stone is the ministry of death. With the reading of the old covenant the veil is unlifted, because it is removed in Christ and where the Spirit of the Lord is THERE is liberty. The old covenat did not allow liberty: it was instituted for slaves who were unready for liberty; but the new covenant is called the "Law of Liberty" because we are no longer children in need of a tutor.
Do you rely on the law to keep you from killing? From lying? From stealing? Children need more restrictions until they are able to make free choices; just so, Christians have been given the liberty to make free decisions without a set of commands that leave no room for freedom of conscience.
Prisoners, when convicted and incarcerated, have many restrictions: when to eat, when to shower, when to engage in outdoor exercise. They have surrendered their freedoms because of their crimes.
Christians have been set free from the law of sin and death to walk in the new light. We should rejoice in our freedom and not abuse it by either attempting to enforce our beliefs on others. "Let everyone be persuaded in his OWN mind."
.
Last edited by elaine (10-11-10 12:51 pm)
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Tom said to Bob2........
"If you cannot stop pretending that your views have not been refuted, then leave. Or at the very least, study more and post less. In fact, you really need to stop promoting this absurd heresy about the Every Day Sabbath. It is nonsense. Sorry."
Wow, is this the pot calling the kettle black, or what? No one has been "refuted" more than Tom Norris. He still owes Maggie a few thousand dollars. Oh well.
Everybody want to refute historic bible Adventism. The more they try, the more convoluted their ideas become. And as Jesus said, "Ye worship, ye know not what."
Bill Sorensen
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Bill, Jesus is our rest and peace, he fulfilled the shadow Sabbath:
Col 2: 13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Paul reiterates it here:
Eph 2:11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
What was the barrier between Jew and Gentile, circumcison and the Sabbath. Jesus tore down these barriers between the two.
Last edited by bob_2 (10-11-10 11:07 pm)
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Bob, it is from these texts that I became convinced that there had been a clean break between the old and new covenants.
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Tom, I tried googling "Reformed Sabbath" and Google tends to go to Reformed Churches like Presbyterians, but nothing on a Reformed Sabbath. The word Reformed is usually associated with Calvinism, or Lutheranism but not about a Reformed Sabbath.
Can you give us a scholar that agrees with you.
New Covenant Theology has a wide range of individuals exploring it. There are some Calvinists that use NCT as template over Reformed Theology, but it doesn 't work with the main advocates of NCT like Fred Zaspel and Tom Wells/
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Here is a book review of Wells and Zaspel book they have written together:
New Covenant Theology: Description, Definition, Defense
http://www.sbts.edu/documents/tschreine … Zaspel.pdf
Though not in total agreement, is is written in a irenic style that encourages further open discussion of what these two author have writtne about.
Last edited by bob_2 (10-12-10 3:35 pm)
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Tom, read the following and see if you are not guilty of being implicit with your Theroy of a Reformed Sabbath rather than using explicit evidence in the Scripture for it:
An Examination Of The Presuppositions
Of Covenant And Dispensational Theology
Introduction
http://solochristo.com/theology/nct/Pre … upmain.htm
Last edited by bob_2 (10-12-10 3:56 pm)
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"Bill, Jesus is our rest and peace, he fulfilled the shadow Sabbath:"
Yes, Bob, Jesus did away with the ceremonial sabbaths. To place the moral law Sabbath in the exact same context will not "fly" as you consider all the bible says about this subject.
Bill Sorensen
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Exodus 34:28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.
Then:
Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Then
Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
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Just a final word, Bob. The way you seperate old and new covenant is not biblical, and they way you harmonize old and new covenant is not biblical.
I assume you believe "Thou shalt not kill" is applicable to a new covenant believer. But "remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" is not.
Bill
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The Old Covenant is a whole, not selective things pulled through to the New Covenant. Some tenets of the Old Covenant look to be transferred or repeated. But the two covenants are separate. That is why the veil in the Temple was torn from top to bottom at Christ' s crucifixon. It became obsolete. I would suggest that holding on to the Old Covenant is anti-Gospel. All the natural law of the Noahide law was natural law that Gentiles were to keep. They have no excuse says:
Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
So Hebrews 8:13 is uninspired. I heard there was a group of SDA that wanted to declare Paul a liar, are you part of that group ??
Here is something to let you know what NCT is and one thing it is not is Dispensational like you keep saying. Look up Dispensational and you will see that I am correct:
What is New Covenant Theology?
New Covenant Theology is a particular understanding of how the Bible fits together or a system of theology. We can neatly summarize the main lines of New Covenant Theology under seven heading. This is only meant to be a brief overview and if you would like to see these points further defined and defended in Scripture, see our articles page.The Cross
By his death on the cross Jesus purchased both complete forgiveness of sins past, present, and future and a changed life or new heart for all those for whom he died. Believers love Christ more than sin and are characterized by obedience and repentance when they sin.The Abrahamic Covenant
This covenant reveals God’s plan to save a people and take them into his land. The Old Covenant with the nation of Israel and the promise land is a temporary picture of what is accomplished by the New Covenant where Jesus actually purchased a people and will take them to be with him forever in the new heavens and new earth.The Old Covenant
The Old or Mosaic Covenant is a legal or works covenant that God made with Israel on Mount Sinai that is brought to an end or fulfilled at the cross. It was never intended to save people but instead its purpose was to increase sin and guilt until the coming of the Savior.The New Covenant
This covenant is a gracious covenant in which Jesus purchased a people by his death on the cross so that all those for whom he died will receive full forgiveness of sins and become incurable God-lovers.Israel
Israel is a temporary unbelieving picture of the people of God. There always existed a remnant of believers within unbelieving Israel.Law
The version of law in the Old Covenant era was the Mosaic Law, which included the Ten Commandments. The version of law in the New Covenant era is the law of Christ, which includes the commands of Christ that pertain to the New Covenant era and the commands of his Apostles.Circumcision and Baptism
Circumcision was the physical picture of regeneration. It signified that you were physically born into the unbelieving people of God, Israel. It was given to all Israelites, irrespective of repentance and faith. Baptism is the outward sign that regeneration has occurred. It signifies that you have been spiritually born into the believing people of God, the church. It is given to all those who give evidence of regeneration, which is repentance and faith.
http://ids.org/?page_id=12
Last edited by bob_2 (10-13-10 1:11 am)
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Bill to say that that your understanding is the correct one. Read these verses that have no Sabbath:
The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are
1.Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
2.Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
3.Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4.Prohibition of Sexual immorality: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, sodomy, and bestiality.
5.Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
6.Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4, as interpreted in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 59a)
7.Requirement to have just Laws: Do not punish by these lessons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah
Those were what Gentiles were to live by and Jews considered them good Gentiles if they abided by them which contains no Sabbath. They have, per the Jews, been around, six of them, and one added after the flood. Still no Sabbath!!
Notice about those that were without a written law what Paul says about natural law:
Romans 1:18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
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The Old Covenant was the Ten Commandments and all it's detail given with 613 Laws, it is a whole not segmented as you and tSDAs do. In effect until the "Seed" shall come and die.
Galatians 3:19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.
Last edited by bob_2 (10-14-10 5:22 pm)
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Note Jesus own words that He had fulfilled the Law:
Luke 24:44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
Fulfilled means complete and satisfied, no longer valid. In the New Covenant, it's own laws or tenets are stated. No Sabbath when Christ was no longer under the Old Covenant. The Shadow was the Sabbath, the reality was Jesus. Col 2:16-17
Last edited by bob_2 (10-14-10 5:29 pm)
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Bob, as much as I have problems with some of the approaches to the law of the SDA church, I find it hard to see the ten commandments as merely an expansion of the 613 laws. For example, if that were true, one would expect there to be some reference to traife foods in the ten commandments, a topic which consumes a great deal of writing in leviticus. Similarly, nothing about assault or about the sacrifices, both of which received a lot of attention.
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