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Tom I have imported your last post on "Sticky: State of ATomorrow" to this thread where we can scrutinize your porposition, hopefully with the Word of God:
Today 9:11 am
* tom_norris
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Re: State of ATomorrow
Bob 2 said: In your last post, Tom, not one text was used by you, but your own reasoning.
Tom said: There are a number of active threads that deal with the Reformed Sabbath. See:
The Reformed Sabbath:
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=228
The Sabbath in Colossians:
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=242
The Tribulation:
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=768
These threads are full of texts. I suggest that if you want to continue this detailed discussion about the Sabbath that you do so on the correct thread.
Bob 2 said: Also to state that billions would disagree with me about NCT, at least that many would disagree with your Reformed Sabbath, because they keep the 4th Commandment with the 1 day of the week.
Tom said: You have missed the point. Your view that there is no Sabbath for the church has been totally repudiated by the church. No one takes this absurd view.
While many in the church disagree over the nature and definition of the Sabbath, no denomination has ever concluded that there is no weekly Sabbath or Lord’s Day for the church.
The facts are on my side, and thus many will change their view of the Sabbath when they better understand the NT. But those that think there is no Sabbath for the church are not only very rare, but also very wrong.
There is no chance that your NO SABBATH view will ever become part of the genuine Gospel or the church. Sorry.
Bob 2 said: Christ our Rest is the Sabbath. Read this following excerpt from an article and it's different perspective on work under the New Covenant:
Tom said: Bob, I don’t think you understand the discussion you quoted about the Sabbath. It supports my view before it does yours. Why? Because this article is opposing the Old Covenant Sabbath, not the NC one that we are discussing.
I too agree that there can be no OC Sabbath keeping in the church. So that article does not help your case.
Jesus did not become the Sabbath.
Such a position is absurd and unfounded. We have gone over this in detail on some other threads and you have never been able to prove your point.
If you think you have found something new that supports your view, then post it up on the proper thread. But you have nothing my friend. You are shooting blanks. At some point you are going to have to admit that you are wrong. Sorry.
Bob2 says
By the way, I believe it was you that Hijacked the other thread not me. It was for purpose of talking of the condition of ATomorrow, not your Reformed Sabbath.
Again no texts used to prove your point. Here is a direct contradiction to your Reformed OC Sabbath.
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
The barrier which included the Sabbath Commandment given uniquely to the Jews, was torn down to make one body of believers.
Last edited by bob_2 (04-01-10 1:04 pm)
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BTW, your first link has absolutely no texts except your own reasoning!!
In your 2nd link, you talk of men, Luther, to Canright, but man's reasoning, no specific texts.
Your third link, miscontrues NT texts and uses sleeping disciples to compare to those not "getting" your Reformed Sabbath. How about some texts that state it clearly. You haven't, former Pastor Norris. Maybe that is why you are FORMER.
Last edited by bob_2 (04-01-10 1:02 pm)
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Bob 2 said: Tom I have imported your last post on "Sticky: State of ATomorrow" to this thread where we can scrutinize your proposition, hopefully with the Word of God:
Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. Your view of the non-Sabbath has been refuted on a number of threads already. Why do you think you need another one?
As for the NC Sabbath. It has been discussed many times. No one has been able to refute it, least of all you, -with this absurd idea that Jesus "is the Sabbath."
Tom said: There are a number of active threads that deal with the Reformed Sabbath.
See:
The Reformed Sabbath:
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=228
The Sabbath in Colossians:
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=242
The Tribulation:
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=768
These threads are full of texts. I suggest that if you want to continue this detailed discussion about the Sabbath that you do so on the correct thread.
Bob 2 said: Also to state that billions would disagree with me about NCT, at least that many would disagree with your Reformed Sabbath, because they keep the 4th Commandment with the 1 day of the week.
Tom said: You have missed the point. Your view that there is no Sabbath for the church has been totally repudiated by the church. No one takes this absurd view.
While many in the church disagree over the nature and definition of the Sabbath, no denomination has ever concluded that there is no weekly Sabbath or Lord’s Day for the church.
The facts are on my side, and thus many will change their view of the Sabbath when they better understand the NT. But those that think there is no Sabbath for the church are not only very rare, but also very wrong.
There is no chance that your NO SABBATH view will ever become part of the genuine Gospel or the church. Sorry.
Bob 2 said: Christ our Rest is the Sabbath. Read this following excerpt from an article and it's different perspective on work under the New Covenant:
Tom said: Bob, I don’t think you understand the discussion you quoted about the Sabbath. It supports my view before it does yours. Why? Because this article is opposing the Old Covenant Sabbath, not the NC one that we are discussing.
I too agree that there can be no OC Sabbath keeping in the church. So that article does not help your case.
Jesus did not become the Sabbath.
Such a position is absurd and unfounded. We have gone over this in detail on some other threads and you have never been able to prove your point.
If you think you have found something new that supports your view, then post it up on the proper thread. But you have nothing my friend. You are shooting blanks. At some point you are going to have to admit that you are wrong. Sorry.
Bob2 says: By the way, I believe it was you that Hijacked the other thread not me. It was for purpose of talking of the condition of ATomorrow, not your Reformed Sabbath.
Tom said: I came on that thread because you were taking shots at Adventist Reform and promoting this anti-Sabbatarian garbage that you call “NCT.”
First of all, to take such an anti-Sabbatarian position is a violation of this site. JR did not allow those with an anti Sabbatarian, destroy Adventism agenda on the site. He would send them away.
So you are way out of bounds to be trying to push for no Sabbath. It is pure heresy and theological incompetence. And so too is your view that Jesus is an OT figure and the view, (Elaine’s) that Jesus did not start the church.
Discussing such worthless topics is not the purpose of this site. We are trying to fix the broken Adventist Movement, not complete its destruction and fall into irrelevance and more heresy.
Bob said: Again no texts used to prove your point. Here is a direct contradiction to your Reformed OC Sabbath.
Tom said: You need to stop making a fool of yourself. The NC Sabbath is found in the Gospels. Nothing that Paul writes does away with the Reformed Sabbath that Jesus teaches in the Gospels.
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,
16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near.
18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
---------------------------
First off, the text does not say, “Jesus is our Sabbath.” Nor does any text in the Bible, because there is no such text and no such doctrine. Nor does this passage teach that the Sabbath no longer exists.
Second, the “new man” is a spiritual Jew, under the authority of Jesus. He is not an independent man that has no connection to Jesus or his Gospel teachings.
On what basis can this new Christian man ignore, refute, and disobey the teachings of Jesus?
Third; There is nothing in this passage that refutes the NC Sabbath that Jesus said was taught to him by God the Father.
Fourth: The “barrier” that was broken down was Judaism, which included the OC Sabbath. But guess what? That is not the Sabbath that Jesus taught for the church. He promoted another Sabbath for the church, the NC, active Sabbath.
Thus Jesus, as head of the church, is also Lord of the Sabbath. THIS is what he teaches. How can anyone claim to follow him and then pretend that he does not teach what he clearly teaches?
Beware the Gospel of “Bob”
While the Gospels of Matt and Luke say that Jesus claimed to be the Lord of the Sabbath, the “Gospel of Bob” says Jesus is the Sabbath. So how are we to solve the contradiction? Which Gospels are correct?
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Luke 6:5 And He was saying to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Bob 3:16. And Jesus said to them: “I am the Sabbath day.”
Bob 3:17 Jesus continued and said: Now there is no longer any weekly Sabbath. I have abolished the Sabbath.
Oh what shall we do? Who should we believe?
Sorry, Bob, but I am going to go with Matt and Luke. They are the true authority on all such matters. They do not say what you teach, and you have no basis to challenge them whatsoever.
They do not teach that Jesus is the Sabbath, nor do they ever claim he spoke such words or taught such an anti-Sabbatarian doctrine.
You are not an apostle. What you write and what you claim does not trump scripture. We went over this before. Jesus does not support what you teach about him or the Sabbath.
So give it a rest. Go back and read those threads and try to understand the Gospel Sabbath.
Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath
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Ephesians 2: 14 - 18 does what you claim has not been accomplished. There is no Gospel Sabbath but Jesus.
Last edited by bob_2 (04-01-10 9:56 pm)
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Bob,
The passage you cite does not teach the Every Day Sabbath. Sorry.
In fact, there is no basis from this passage to claim that Jesus, or his apostles, ever taught an Every Day Sabbath, or that every day of the year is now holy and special for the church.
How you can possibly think this passage establishes the “Every Day” Sabbath doctrine for the church? Such reckless and dishonest use of the NT is a great sin. You need to learn about proper hermeneutics and how to read the Bible.
Eph. 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,
Eph. 2:20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
Jesus is Lord of everything, including the Gospel Sabbath. Those that fail to understand this point, do not understand the Gospel. Nor do they follow Jesus as Lord and Savior. Some may think they are following him, but the facts show otherwise.
John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
Those that refuse to embrace the 7th day Gospel Sabbath, as taught by Christ and the NT, are denying the Lordship and authority of Christ, the head of the church. They do not love Christ or his teachings. They have misunderstood the Gospel and the Reformed Gospel Sabbath, even as they have repudiated Christ and insulted him. They will not be saved.
It is the enemies of Christ that refute his teachings. It is those on the wrong side that refuse to embrace the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath correctly. Is this really what you want to do?
Rev. 17:14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”
I repeat, those that turn their backs on the Gospel Sabbath, which the Jews did, are not “chosen” or “faithful.” They are doomed and lost.
Let all pay careful attention to the Gospel teachings of Jesus, including the doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath
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That has to be one of your shortest posts. There is no day in the Gospel. Christ fulfilled in himself. You have used the "Everyday Sabbath" to belittle what really happened, Col 2:16-17 is all that needs saying, unless you are one of those that believe that the Old Covenant wasn't all one whole, and believe that it is hacked up in three pieces, ceremonial, civic and moral. That is unbiblcal, if that is what you are peddling.
If you can show where the word "Commandment" only means the 10 Commandments and can show where Jesus commanded the Sabbath to be kept in the New Covenant, I have been askin' but no one can produce it, so you would be the first to do it. When something is fulfilled it becomes obsolete. Heb 8:13, 2 Cor 3: 7 I'm serious, put up or shut up, with your Reformed Sabbath, at least there are New Covenant Theologians, but Reformed Sabbatarians, you da only one I've found, and I still don't understand what is Reformed about it.
Last edited by bob_2 (10-10-10 12:46 am)
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Bob said: That has to be one of your shortest posts.
Tom said: So what? Either short or long, your views are still wrong.
This “Every Day” Sabbath idea, which was introduced in the 2nd century, is an ancient error that was correctly rejected by the church. Which is why every week, on one special Sabbath day, people go to church in all denominations. Whether Saturday or Sunday, the church has ALWAYS had a weekly doctrine of the Sabbath, and this is obviously true for Laodicea today. Look around and see for yourself.
Moreover, those foolish enough to promote this hypothetical doctrine, don’t even follow it. Why? Because it is absurdly impractical and irrational. Which is why there is no church that really practices the “Every Day” Sabbath. Nor has there ever been.
But maybe this is what you are trying to promote: The Gospel of Bob, with the Every Day Sabbath. Go for it. Set up a web site and start promoting your great obsession. But count me out. Your religion is a farce and your Jesus a joke. You don’t know what you are talking about. Sorry.
Bob said: There is no day in the Gospel.
Tom said: How can you claim there is no Sabbath day in the Gospel teaching of Jesus? Jesus claimed to be the Lord of the 7th day, reformed Sabbath, which was made for mankind? Thus he has made certain that there is a weekly, special day, for the church. Which is why the church, meaning all denominations, to this very day, meets once a week. It is your view that is heretical, reckless, and wrong, not all others.
So not only are you blindly fighting against the clear teachings of Jesus, (which you do not understand), but you are also railing against the unanimous practice of the church from the beginning of its existence to the present day! Are you sure you are ready to stand up and declare everyone ever connected with the church wrong, except you? Like I said before, you need to study more and post less. Why not take another Sabbatical and try to figure this all out.
There is a weekly Sabbath for the church and very few, less than 1%, embrace this allegorical and hypothetical view of the Every Day Sabbath. The church has NEVER taken it seriously, nor should it. Because this is not what Jesus or his apostles teach about the Gospel Sabbath.
Bob stubbornly said: Christ fulfilled (the Sabbath) in himself.
Tom said: While Christ fulfilled many things, the Sabbath was not one of them. He reformed the non-working OC Sabbath into the NC version, which allows for all manner of activity and work.
Thus Christ did not declare himself to be the Sabbath day, or the Lord of himself. Such views are very strange and clearly wrong. They are not taught in the NT.
Bob said: You have used the "Everyday Sabbath" to belittle what really happened, Col 2:16-17 is all that needs saying, unless you are one of those that believe that the Old Covenant wasn't all one whole, and believe that it is hacked up in three pieces, ceremonial, civic and moral.
Tom said: The Sabbath instruction of Jesus is found in all four Gospels. THIS is where one finds the Gospel Sabbath defined and explained. The Sabbath teaching of Jesus is for the church.
You need to stop rummaging around the NT looking for texts that seem to support your absurd view. This is how the dishonest SDA’s and others operate and I see that you have been well trained into such proof texting errors. Any that wish to really understand what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, must read every word he says about the Sabbath and understand the Sabbath debates that are recorded in all four Gospels.
Don’t dare omit these critical passages from the study of the Sabbath, pretending that the matter is settled by some comment by Paul. Such dishonest stunts will get you banished from the kingdom of God, as well as this site. If you can’t deal honestly with the NT, then go find another site where you can play all the games you want.
Study what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, and understand it, before you try other passages from Paul or Peter.
Moreover, for you to pretend that you don’t need to study the teachings of Jesus is arrogant blasphemy that summarizes your poor attitude. So anything written about the Sabbath by Paul; is NOT “all that needs to be said.” Why would you make such a remark? Why are you avoiding the Sabbath teachings of Jesus.
The Gospel Sabbath is Jesus and God’s idea, not mine. The fact that is seems like a brand new doctrine to every church in Laodicea is beside the point. There is a NEW DOCTRINE of the Sabbath for the Remnant church to understand and embrace. Woe to those that try and fight the Gospel Sabbath.
Those that deliberately do an end run around the teachings of Jesus, thinking they can establish doctrine from others, have made a fatal mistake. The Words of Jesus determine the basis for all NC doctrine. Jesus, not Paul, is the Lord of the Gospel Sabbath and head of the church. Ignore his clear teachings at your own eternal risk.
Bob said: That is unbiblical, if that is what you are peddling.
Tom replied: I am “peddling” the genuine Gospel, which is closely associated with the REFORMED, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. I suggest you pay close attention and repent for your false and absurd views.
Bob said: If you can show where the word "Commandment" only means the 10 Commandments and can show where Jesus commanded the Sabbath to be kept in the New Covenant, I have been askin' but no one can produce it, so you would be the first to do it.
Tom said: Bob, first off, don’t flatter yourself by pretending that you have asked some tough, unanswerable questions? You are only making a fool of yourself on many levels.
Second, I never said that Jesus taught the church to keep the OC Sabbath of the Jews. He did not. Rather, he taught a very different Sabbath, one that was so counter-intuitive, and against the rules of OC Law, that the Jewish leaders plotted to murder Jesus- OVER THE SABBATH.
So you are very confused and disoriented. Let all pay careful attention: Jesus teaches a very different, active Sabbath, for the NC church, whereby all in the church are Priests, and thus all are given a pass for working on the OC Sabbath. Which means that it is not wrong to work on the NC Sabbath, as the SDA’s and others teach. (Sunday laws make the same error.)
So the weekly Gospel Sabbath is not like the weekly OC Sabbath. Same day, but very different doctrine.
The fact that the Gospel Sabbath is virtually UNKNOWN to the last church, only underscores how wretched and wrong the church has become. It proves that few are paying any attention to the teachings of Jesus. Which is a fatal mistake.
Thus the preaching of the genuine Gospel, and the correct Gospel Sabbath, will stun the Laodicean Church, shocking it into the realization that it is full of false and worthless doctrine. Just as Jesus has already stated in the last PAJ of the church.
So regardless of the many errors of the SDA’s, they were correct to teach that the Sabbath doctrine will make a big impact at the end of time. They predicted it would embarrass all the other denominations, and lead many of them to repent. But they had no idea they too would be embarrassed and also have to repent for having a false Gospel and a false, OC Sabbath.
Rom. 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (even the SDA’s).
The SDA’s never suspected that they had embraced the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath, as well as of the Gospel. They had no idea that the Gospel Sabbath would be very different, even the opposite, of what all SDA’s taught. But now we know!
Bob said: When something is fulfilled it becomes obsolete. Heb 8:13, 2 Cor 3: 7
Tom said: Many theological things can be fulfilled and not rendered obsolete. Jesus is the fulfillment of the OT promises of God. Does this make him “obsolete”?
While the OC Sabbath has most certainly become “obsolete” for the church, like so many other things in Judaism, (circumcision, Levitical Priests, and Temple sacrifices, etc.), this fact does not preclude the creation of a NC Sabbath for the church. You seem to be overlooking this point. Jesus is the author of the Gospel Sabbath. Not man.
Jesus has the authority to change the Sabbath, and this is what he did. Thus there is an OC Sabbath and a NC Sabbath. To understand the difference is to understand the law and the Gospel, as well as the difference between the Two Covenants. At this point, few understand such things.
Jesus did not teach the OC Sabbath for the church. No. He taught a NC doctrine of the Sabbath, which is very different, even the opposite, of the OC Sabbath. To understand this point, is to understand the Gospel. Misunderstand this point, and the Gospel will remain hidden.
Bob said: I'm serious, put up or shut up, with your Reformed Sabbath, at least there are New Covenant Theologians, but Reformed Sabbatarians, you da only one I've found, and I still don't understand what is Reformed about it.
Tom said: Bob, you are free to leave this site, (again), and go your own way. And I suggest you do so if you cannot stop attacking Gospel truth and making a pest of yourself.
I am not going to go over the same ground over and over with you, pretending that you have a credible view. You do not. So stop wasting peoples time.
Go find another site where the Every Day Sabbath is embraced and promoted.
This site is obviously not for you, or for the others that insist their false views about the IJ, the OC Sabbath, or tithe are correct.
This site promotes the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath as part of Adventist Reform. If you don’t like it, leave.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, after all your ad hominem attack on everyone that you try to convince you know more about a vault of EGW material who believed that the greatest commandment was the Sabbath with a halo around it, unlike Jesus who fulfilled it in his very person. Once something fulfilled it is obsolete. After the ad hominem attack above, I still ask you to prove text that supports your position and at least one scholar that sees it like you.
My position folks is not the tSDA position but makes a lot more sense why the majority of Christendom is keeping Sunday, not because they have found authority to change a worshjip day,, but because fo tests like this:
John 20:19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"'
Why is a day more important than a Savior, why not believe your relationship, your rebirth happens every day. Why not believe you don't have to wait for "Sabbath" to have contact with your Savior. After alll the reason Paul shook is clothes and told the Jews, "your blood be on your heads" weeren't antisemitic words, but, a refusal of a people to accept the Messiah. When Paul left and went next door, he converted Gentiles. Read for yourself:
Acts 18: 1After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3and because he was a tentmaker as they were, he stayed and worked with them. 4Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
5When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ.[a] 6But when the Jews opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am clear of my responsibility. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."
7Then Paul left the synagogue and went next door to the house of Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. 8Crispus, the synagogue ruler, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized.
Tom, the issue clearly here is not the Sabbath, but Jesus being God and His ability to forgive sin and give REST to the soul.
Ephesians 2:15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,
Last edited by bob_2 (10-10-10 7:31 pm)
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I do not understand all this acrimony.Paul made it very clear that the Sabbath and/or feast days were not to be an issue in the Church.The Gentile believers were not required to keep the Sabbath nor be circumcised. But it was not forbidden either.It simply has no spiritual significance either way.
If one is convinced that one should "keep" the seventh day sabbath then fine no one should criticise that decision . On the other hand neither should one that "keeps" another day be railed against and said to have "the mark of the Beast" And if one like Bob sees it different again that too from Scripture is perfectly acceptable.
What is not acceptable is having one trying to make ones personal convictions the norm for all others people.
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This illustrates that the Bible should be interpreted by each reader. When positions are enforced by any church, overriding the Holy Spirit which comes to each individual, and not to a church, it is taking the prerogative that never should happen.
Paul was very emphatic that everyone "should be persuaded in his own mind." And my reading of his instructions to the NT church, and NOT the Jewish Christians, was different: the Jewish Christians could freely continue their practices, but to impose them upon Gentile Christians was contrary to the liberty that Christ gave us: to search the Scriptures and decide how we should walk. If Christ has not replaced the Law, why did He come? The Law was given as a tutor UNTIL He came; once he had come, we no longer need, like children, a tutor.
The Law was given to slaves who had never known the freedom and had to be instructed how to live, rather than having no choice. There is a new regime under Christ. We should enjoy the freedom He brings and not return to the Law as our guide.
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Elaine, isn't this saying the same thing you are:
Eph 2: 11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Last edited by bob_2 (10-11-10 10:40 pm)
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Which is where my thoughts began.
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Elaine, recently I read my brother Don's remarks about Ted Wilson at Alberta Conference Camp Meeting. He quoted Wilson's use of Eph 2:6-8 which to my way of thinking is parsing what Eph 2 is really saying. I have been into Eph 2 also. JBF is one issue, we can not forgive what we inherited, Original Sin.
But what of Eph 2: 11-22? What is this barrier that is talked about? Is it only circumcison that was the barrier between Jew and Gentile or was it also the Sabbath that had to be broken down to make the two - one??
Thoughts???
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Old Abe, I speak to your post. What about the 28 Fundamentals. I would have a hard time signing one if someone put one in front of me. I understand the Fundies were developed in the early end of Ted Wilson, Sr's presidency. I know I never signed one when I was baptized. The problems I would have is EGW inspiration, she is devotional at best. Then the Sabbath, which was fulfilled in Christ. Col 2:16-17 If one studies the Old Covenant, it is more than "ceremonial laws/rites" that were fulfillled. Note Luke 24: 44. Then read Eph 2: 11-22. The two things that make up the barrier between Gentiles and Jews are circumcision and the Sabbath and maybe EGW in the last 160 years, eh?
Last edited by bob_2 (10-12-10 8:07 pm)
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Bob said: Tom, after all your ad hominem attack…
Tom said: Ha! You must not know the definition of “ad hominem.” See below:
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie … minem.html
The Every Day Sabbath doctrine is not being rejected because of some irrelevant reason, or a personal point about you. Why would you think such a thing?
This clearly false doctrine is being rejected because Jesus does not teach it, or anything close to it. And neither does his apostles. Which is why the church has NEVER embraced such an impractical, allegorical view of the Sabbath at any time.
The rejection of this false theory has everything to do with the lack of biblical evidence to support this 2nd century theory, which was never supported or practiced by the church at any time.
Bob said: Once something fulfilled it is obsolete.
Tom said: Who made such a hermeneutical rule? Jesus? Paul? Where do you come up with this irrational, uneducated nonsense? “Fulfilled” does NOT always mean obsolete in the Bible. There is no such rule, so stop making things up and placing your own self-serving spin on the Word in order to defend your twisted views. This is very dishonest, unprofessional, and wrong.
Mark 1:14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
According to you, this passage means the Gospel is now “obsolete”? But we know that this cannot be true. The FULFILLMENT OF GOSPEL PROPHECY did not make the Gospel obsolete.
Look up how the word “fulfilled” is used in the Bible and stop making things up. “Fulfilled” does not always mean “obsolete” as you claim. You are a pitiful Bible student, which is why you think Jesus is the Sabbath, and who knows what other crazy nonsense. Sad.
Bob said: After the ad hominem attack above, I still ask you to prove text that supports your position and at least one scholar that sees it like you.
Tom said: Stop playing games. You cannot refute what has already been posted over and over. Nor have you come close to dealing with the many texts and passages that have been put forward.
So stop pretending. We have gone over all of this many times.
In all four Gospels, Jesus promotes his Gospel Sabbath. It was a doctrine that only encompassed the weekly, 7th day Sabbath of the Jews. He never said he was the fulfillment of the weekly Sabbath Day or that he was now going to become the new Sabbath for the church.
How can you read the NT and think such a thing? You need to study more and post less. Here are some links you need to understand.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … brew-4.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … h-Work.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … us-Old.htm
Blind on Purpose
Many shut their eyes to the Word, pretending to see only what they want. This is the same game the IJ screamers also played. They too would ignore whatever evidence they didn’t like and pretend they won the debate. And to this day, many of these cultic creatures still think they have proven their point and established their pitiful doctrine. Such delusion is epidemic in the religious world. Most people, especially the most religious, believe what they want to believe, not what is really true and verifiable. Sad.
Bob said: My position folks is not the tSDA position but it makes a lot more sense why the majority of Christendom is keeping Sunday, not because they have found authority to change a worship day, but because of texts like this:
John 20:19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"'
Tom said: The RC church makes it clear that the Sunday Sabbath is based on the Moral law. This is why they still view their Sunday doctrine as prohibiting work, thus proving that Sunday, (even though the wrong day), is still an OC minded doctrine that is the opposite of the working, 7th Day, Gospel Sabbath that Jesus reformed in the NT.
The ED Sabbath position is absurd and makes no sense, except for those that are anti-Sabbatarian. Which is why so many anti SDA’s use this Sabbath fraud today to attack the 7th day Sabbath. That is its primary attraction for those former SDA’s that are now so understandable angry at the church. (Then they go off and meet on Sunday, because the ED Sabbath is impossible, impractical, and allegorical. It is not a real doctrine of the church, nor has it ever been such.)
However, the best way to fight against the OC, schoolmaster Sabbath of the SDA’s, is to understand the genuine, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. This is the cure for the great Sabbath error of the SDA’s. Not to pretend that there is no Sabbath for the church.
At this point, the TSDA’s have not been able to respond to the Gospel Sabbath. While they fully expect to have issues and debate about the IJ, and some other points, they never dreamed that the denomination has been promoting the WRONG, 7th day Sabbath all these years. Nor did they ever think that ANOTHER doctrine of the Sabbath would emerge, exposing their great error for all to see.
But here we are! There is a NEW and very different doctrine of the Sabbath in town. It is not just for the SDA’s, but for all others as well. The entire church, meaning every denomination, must REPENT, and embrace the Gospel correctly, including the Gospel Sabbath. This is what heaven demands.
Bob said: Why is a day more important than a Savior?
Tom said: While the SDA’s were wrong to act as if the 7th day, OC Sabbath, was more important than Jesus, this is not at all what is being advocated by Adventist Reform. In fact, this could never happen with the Gospel Sabbath because there is NO OC Sabbath Keeping required of any Christian. They are exempt from the rules against work on the Sabbath, perpetually and forever.
So the operative word is Gospel, not Sabbath. The true, 7th day Sabbath focuses on the Gospel teachings of Jesus, and doing good deeds on the Sabbath; not worrying about Sabbath keeping or breaking.
The Sabbath doctrine was very important to Jesus. It was an integral part of his Gospel teachings, which is why the church has always embraced a weekly Sabbath.
Of course the SDA’s were/are wrong to elevate the Sabbath above Christ, and even more wrong to embrace the OC doctrine of the Sabbath, instead of the NC version. Which is why they must REPENT and embrace the REFORMED, NC, 7th day, Sabbath.
This correction will properly subordinate the NC Sabbath to Christ and his Gospel. Not only because this is the day to hear the Gospel in a community setting, but also because all are free to do whatever work or play they think needs to be done on that day.
So the Day is no longer about sunset calendars and “protecting the edges of the Sabbath,” and other OC rules and regulations. There is no guilt from the law, nor are certain professions given any special consideration about work. All are priests. All are exempt from OC Sabbath rules, even as all must embrace the Sabbath just as Jesus teaches in all four Gospels.
Bob said: Why not believe your relationship, your rebirth happens every day?
Tom said: Why not believe the moon is made of green cheese? Why not believe the earth is flat? Those that seek truth are not going to be satisfied with following made up, phony, doctrines. This is “why not.”
Moreover, no one is saved by a “relationship” or by his or her spiritual “rebirth.” This is not correct Protestant theology. Only faith in the Gospel is salvific, not in our reaction to it. Sanctification is not the basis for Eternal Life.
Bob said: Why not believe you don't have to wait for "Sabbath" to have contact with your Savior.
Tom said: Who said anyone has to wait for the Sabbath to pray or read the Word? Why must you make things up and dishonestly pretend I am taking such views? The NT teaches that we are to pray 7 days a week. There is to be no waiting for the Sabbath. That is absurd.
Luke 18:1 Now He was telling them a parable to show that at all times they ought to pray and not to lose heart,
Eph. 6:18 With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,
Col. 1:9 For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
1Th. 5:17 pray without ceasing;
Bob, you are obviously so unfamiliar with the teachings of the NT, that you really don’t know what you are saying. The knowledge you have, is only enough to be dangerous. Unless you become honest, informed, and educated about what the NT actually teaches, as opposed to what you assume and think it teaches,- you are never going to understand.
Bob said: After all, the reason Paul shook is clothes and told the Jews, "your blood be on your heads" weren't anti-Semitic words, but, a refusal of a people to accept the Messiah. When Paul left and went next door, he converted Gentiles.
Tom said: One of the main reasons why the Jews rejected their Messiah is because of his radical, new view of the Sabbath and the Priesthood of all believers. Jesus had the right day of course, but his view was so dramatically opposed to what the Jews had taught for thousands of years, that many could not accept it as present truth.
Jesus Gospel teachings about the Sabbath were so radical and counter-intuitive, that it amazed and stunned all, even as it led many to rejoice and many to condemn.
After the Jews rejected Jesus, the Gentiles were then taught the Gospel, and the NC Sabbath, by Paul, --on the Sabbath. Of course the OC Jews protested Paul’s Gospel and his use of the Reformed Sabbath, with its connection to the Gospel, minus all the typical rules against work.
Acts 13:13 Now Paul and his companions put out to sea from Paphos and came to Perga in Pamphylia; but John left them and returned to Jerusalem.
Acts 13:14 But going on from Perga, they arrived at Pisidian Antioch, and on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down.
Acts 13:15 After the reading of the Law and the Prophets the synagogue officials sent to them, saying, “Brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it.”
Acts 13:16 Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, “Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen: ….
Acts 13:42 As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath.
Acts 13:43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.
Acts 13:44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.
Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.
Acts 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Acts 13:49 And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region.
Note: In the NT there is no Every Day Sabbath anywhere in sight, or a Sunday Sabbath. But there is the OC Sabbath of the Jews that Paul was violating, as well as the 7th day, Reformed Gospel Sabbath of Jesus. The latter is what Paul promoted to the Gentiles, both by word and behavior.
There is a 7th day, Gospel Sabbath for the church. But there is not an OC Sabbath, (either Sunday or Saturday), where it is sinful to work. Nor is there an Every Day, allegorical Sabbath.
Heb. 4:9 So there remains a weekly Sabbath for the people of God.
There is only one Gospel and one Gospel Sabbath for the Church. Period. Let all adjust their minds to follow Christ and repent, embracing this seemingly new Gospel doctrine that overturns what every church in Laodicea has been teaching, including the SDA’s.
Bob said: Tom, the issue clearly here is not the Sabbath, but Jesus being God and His ability to forgive sin and give REST to the soul.
Tom said: The issue is the Gospel. Those that are paying attention to the teachings of Jesus, will understand and embrace not only the Gospel, but, also his “amazing,” NC, Gospel Sabbath. It was a great point of debate and was in fact, the reason why the Jews determined to censor and kill Jesus. IT WAS OVER THE GOSPEL SABBATH, which Jesus claimed God, his Father had shown him.
John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
John 5:20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.
To reject the Gospel Sabbath is to reject God and Jesus. To think that the OC Sabbath represents God’s Gospel of mercy and grace is to horribly misunderstand God and the NC, as well as the Spirit.
Abe said: I do not understand all this acrimony.
Tom said: The preaching of the Gospel always causes anger, debate, and acrimony. This pattern started from the very first sermon in Capernaum, where Jesus introduced the Gospel, and his Reformed, and “amazing” NC Sabbath.
Mark 1:22 They were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him.”
Mark 1:28 Immediately the news about Him spread everywhere into all the surrounding district of Galilee.
Luke 4:28 And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things;
Luke 4:29 and they got up and drove Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff.
Thus the NT is full of all manner of anger and bloodshed directed against those that promote the Gospel and the Reformed Sabbath, Jesus being the foremost, being tortured on the cross.
Even in the early church, “great dissension” and debate erupted about the definition of the Gospel.
Acts 15:2 And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.
Acts 15:7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
It is normative for sparks to fly when the genuine Gospel is preached. In fact, if people are not getting challenged and upset, then one is not preaching correct doctrine. The Gospel causes trouble and greatly upsets the status quo.
So the exile of Dr. Ford and the ongoing censorship campaign by the SDA church against Adventist Reform is to be expected. This is typical behavior from the enemies of the Gospel, who are wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Abe said: Paul made it very clear that the Sabbath and/or feast days were not to be an issue in the Church.
Tom said: Why does everyone run to Paul to try and find the definition of the NC Sabbath?
Jesus is the head of the church and Lord of the Sabbath. Not Paul. So if there is going to be a Sabbath doctrine for the church, it must be clearly established by Jesus, in the Gospels. And so it is.
Those that think they can ignore the teachings of Jesus, and run to others, like Paul, to find whatever doctrines they prefer, are only fooling themselves.
Paul supports the Gospel Sabbath, even as Jesus has made it very clear that he is the Lord of the weekly, NC Sabbath. Anyone that thinks Paul teaches another view, one that is against the teachings of Jesus, has misunderstood the NT.
Abe said: The Gentile believers were not required to keep the Sabbath nor be circumcised. But it was not forbidden either.
Tom said: Neither the Jews nor the Gentiles were supposed to keep the OC Sabbath of the Jews or submit to ritual, OC circumcision. Paul makes this very clear.
Gal. 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
So the “schoolmaster” Sabbath WAS forbidden, along with circumcision, tithe, and many OC doctrines. Y
Furthermore, you are not paying attention to this discussion if you think Adventist Reform is trying to impose the OC Sabbath on the church. (This is the error of the Jews, the Judaizers in the church, and later, the SDA’s).
However, there is no doubt that some of the Christian Jews did not like the removal of so many OC doctrines. Some in the church, with the support of Peter and James, tried to enforce many OC doctrines on the church. (See Galatians). They became known as the Judaizers or the Circumcision Party.
Paul of course said that they were wrong. Circumcision as well as tithe, and OC Sabbath keeping were indeed forbidden in the church. And so it still must be today. But who cares? Not the SDA’s. They will do, as they please, just like the Jews.
Abe said: It (Sabbath) simply has no spiritual significance either way.
Tom said: Wow! No one that claims to follow Christ could ever say that the Sabbath has no spiritual significance. Such a bold and clear attack on Jesus and his teaching, places one way outside the Kingdom of God.
John 4:22 “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
John 4:23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
John 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Those who think Jesus wrong to promote the Gospel Sabbath, (that he said God told him to teach), or that he was a fool to waste his time on such non-spiritual doctrine, have crossed the line into blasphemy and reckless disregard of the Word. They are not Christians, but rather modern day Gnostics, that twist and spin their way through the scriptures. Such a false hermeneutic, along with the strange views generated, are worthless.
Abe said: If one is convinced that one should "keep" the seventh day Sabbath then fine, no one should criticize that decision.
Tom said: The Gospel teachings of Jesus are not up for debate, vote, or popular revision, as if there were many “different” versions of Jesus and the Spirit. One must both understand and embrace the teaching of Jesus, or not. Otherwise, religion quickly turns into a corrupt organization of thieves and robbers.
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
At the end of time, the entire church ends up with a “different” and incorrect Gospel, which is why all are told to repent or be lost. Although they are “convinced” they are rich in doctrine and very correct about religion, they are not even close. Thieves, strangers, and false prophets control the Laodicean church. And who seems to care? Not the SDA’s. They bear false doctrine “beautifully,” even as their smile on their way to hell, thinking they are going to heaven.
2Cor. 11:4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.
No one is given the choice to pick and choose what doctrines they like to avoid, and which ones make sense to them. Nor does anyone get to set up a phony debate between Jesus and Paul, as if the latter is teaching the opposite of Jesus.
Furthermore, the passage cited in Romans does not even mention the Sabbath, so how can this remark become the basis to establish, explain, or dismiss the doctrine of the NC Sabbath?
The Sabbath is mentioned over 138 times in the Bible, and almost half of this number, 60, is found in 7 books of the New Testament. The vast majority of these Sabbath references are in the four Gospels.
One must study the context, meaning, and use of each text that mentions the Sabbath to understand this topic. Not only have you failed to do this, you have relied on passages that do not even mention the Sabbath. No wonder you don’t understand what you are saying. You don’t have enough knowledge of the NT to know what you are doing.
Luke 23:34 But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.”
Abe said: On the other hand neither should one that "keeps" another day be railed against and said to have "the mark of the Beast"
Tom said: Wrong again, and for the same reason. You obviously don’t know what the NT teaches. You are just guessing, when you could know the facts.
Anyone in the church that “keeps,” observes, or practices the non-working, OC Sabbath of the SDA’s, (or the Sunday keeping Sabbath of others), has FALLEN FROM GRACE. They are repudiating the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath as well as PAJ, which is the LM. They are following a false Christ and a false Gospel. They are wretched, blind, and lost.
Rev 18 show a time when the full, complete, Gospel will be presented to the church. Any that refuse to repent and embrace the Genuine Christ and the apostolic Gospel, including the correct, active, 7th day, Sabbath of the NT, will also refuse to believe that the Tribulation is about to start. Thus they will not be ready for that event, or the Judgment of the 2nd Coming, which will follow. They will be double lost.
The SDA’s, who proudly and loudly teach the OC Sabbath, must repent or be lost. Period. And so too all those who have embraced the Sunday fraud. All are condemned. All have a distorted Gospel and false Sabbath, including the dishonest SDA’s.
Abe said: And if one like Bob sees it different again that too from Scripture is perfectly acceptable. What is not acceptable is having one trying to make ones personal convictions the norm for all others people.
Tom said: Wow! So whatever doctrines people think they see in the Bible, it is all “perfectly acceptable?” And there should be no preaching the Gospel with personal “conviction?
Do you really think that this is what Jesus or Paul teaches? If so, I suggest that you actually start reading the NT and see if you can’t educate yourself on the clear and obvious facts before it is too late for you.
While your view is very wrong, there is no doubt that this is how most all Laodiceans think. Which is why there is so much confusion, division, and false doctrine in the last church.
In fact, there is so much error in the church today, that the genuine Gospel, and the Reformed Sabbath, which had been lost long ago, is not comprehended. This is why the LM condemns the entire church at the end of time, even as Jesus demands that all repent.
This repentance should start with the SDA’s, but for some strange reason, they think Jesus has exempted them from repenting. They arrogantly think they have every doctrine correct, and that Jesus is telling all others to repent—except them. But the truth is that he is also telling them that they are naked and blind to the genuine Gospel and the correct Sabbath. They too have most every doctrine very wrong.
Wretched SDA’s, they are as doomed as were the Jews if they do not soon wake up and understand.
Is anyone in the SDA Community listening?
Are the leaders even able to read this discussion without blushing? Are they even interested in Gospel truth?
Elaine said: This illustrates that the Bible should be interpreted by each reader.
Tom said: Wrong. There is only one correct Gospel, Spirit, and Christ, even as there is no private interpretation about prophecy or church history.
John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
2Pet. 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
2Pet. 1:21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
There is no basis for anyone thinking that each reader can view the Gospel words of Christ, the Sabbath, or anything else, as each one fancies. The Spirit does not promote Pluralism, which is an absurd and very wrong doctrine of the modern SDA’s.
Preaching the Word is much difference than reading the Word, and trying to understand what it means. Those who preach, must first know the Gospel, and the Word, even as such preaching must be declarative, clear, and unequivocal.
This is why the PREACHING of the Gospel is so important as compared to just reading the NT. When one preaches the Word, the faithful Gospel agent is not advocating many different views, but one.
Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.
Acts 14:21 After they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch,
Rom. 15:19 in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit; so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
1Cor. 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
1Cor. 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
1Cor. 15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
So don’t confuse preaching the Word with reading the Word. They are very different. A legitimate Gospel preacher does not promote pluralism.
Notice that when Paul or Jesus preached the Gospel, they never said that anyone could interpret it as they choose. Nor did anyone misunderstand this point and think Pluralism was a credible doctrine.
Luke 19:47 And He was teaching daily in the temple; but the chief priests and the scribes and the leading men among the people were trying to destroy Him,
Luke 19:48 and they could not find anything that they might do, for all the people were hanging on to every word He said.
Luke 20:1 On one of the days while He was teaching the people in the temple and preaching the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes with the elders confronted Him,
Luke 20:2 and they spoke, saying to Him, “Tell us by what authority You are doing these things, or who is the one who gave You this authority?”
Even the enemies of Jesus knew what he was saying. They did not think for a moment that Jesus taught pluralism.
Elaine said: When positions are enforced by any church, overriding the Holy Spirit which comes to each individual, and not to a church, it is taking the prerogative that never should happen.
Tom said: Correct. But the Spirit does not bring a different Gospel or any false doctrine. Those that follow the Gospel teachings of Jesus, will have his Spirit, and thus understand the Word and what is true and what is false, including how to view the Sabbath and tithe and everything else.
John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
This would include Jesus teaching about the Gospel Sabbath. Thus the Spirit can only promote the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath as explained by Jesus in all 4 Gospels. It is a false Spirit that promotes the Sunday Sabbath, or the OC, SDA, Sabbath, or the absurd Every Day Sabbath.
1John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Elaine said: Paul was very emphatic that everyone "should be persuaded in his own mind."
Tom said: This is a most amateurish, lazy, and dishonest view. Paul is clear that there is only one Gospel and one Christ. He never said that the definition of the Gospel, or any doctrine, including the Sabbath, was left up to his audience. Jesus never said such a thing either.
You need to learn how to read the Bible in an honest and serious manner if you really want to understand it. This awful proof texting hermeneutic, that made the SDA’s famous, is now their downfall. They have made fools of themselves, and now they have no idea how to read the Bible or understand what Jesus and Paul are really saying.
Elaine said: And my reading of Paul’s instructions to the NT church, and NOT the Jewish Christians, was different: the Jewish Christians could freely continue their practices, but to impose them upon Gentile Christians was contrary to the liberty that Christ gave us: to search the Scriptures and decide how we should walk.
Tom said: Wow! So you think Paul promoted two different Gospels in the church; one for the Jewish Christians, and one for the Gentiles? This is absurd and very wrong.
No doubt the SDA’s must agree with you, because they too have embraced the doctrine of pluralism. There are not many different ways to view the Gospel. There is only one Gospel and one Sabbath for the church, and so far, Laodicea has not understood either as yet.
Elaine said: If Christ has not replaced the Law, why did He come?
Tom said: Jesus came to save the world from their sins, through the Gospel. His mission was to save sinners from the penalty of law. Not to take the law away, which would mean there could be no sin or Judgment.
Elaine said: The Law was given as a tutor UNTIL He came; once he had come, we no longer need, like children, a tutor.
Tom said: While the NC Christian is no longer under the OC laws of Judaism, this is only because he or she is “in Christ.” Those that are not, will be judged by the Moral law and found guilty in the Judgment.
So the law is still around, as all will discover at the Judgment Day.
Elaine said: The Law was given to slaves who had never known the freedom and had to be instructed how to live, rather than having no choice. There is a new regime under Christ. We should enjoy the freedom He brings and not return to the Law as our guide.
Tom said: Elaine, you must be struggling to comprehend this discussion? Many of the anti-Sabbatarian crowd are also very confused right now.
Pay attention: The Gospel Sabbath is very different from the OC Sabbath, of which you are complaining. The GS is based, NOT ON THE LAW, but on an EXEMPTION from the law. Which is why the Gospel Sabbath has NO prohibition against any kind of work, as the SDA’s incorrectly teach.
The SDA’s have made a huge blunder that dwarfs their early mistake about the time of the Sabbath, which was corrected by Andrews and accepted by Ellen White. The GS is a paradigm shift of prophetic proportions.
The true Gospel Sabbath represents great FREEDOM from the law, and specifically from the OC Sabbath, with all its many rules and regulations. Thus, every week, the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ, is a living memorial to the GOSPEL FREEDOM WE HAVE IN CHRIST.
Any, like the SDA’s or the RC’s, that teach it sinful to work on the NC Sabbath, (including Sunday), are proving their ignorance of the Gospel. They are obviously following a fraudulent Christ.
Those that understand the Gospel should NOT feel guilty or conflicted about eating at a restaurant on the 7th Day Gospel Sabbath, or swimming, or traveling, or, doing whatever work or good deeds they choose. Even those that have to work on the 7th day, at any type of job, may do so and be guiltless. This is what Jesus teaches about the weekly, NC Sabbath.
Thus the Gospel Sabbath, as taught by Jesus in all four Gospels, represents great freedom, as well as Eternal Life.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
John 12:49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
John 12:50 “I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for genuine Sabbath Reform
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Tom said:
The Every Day Sabbath doctrine is not being rejected because of some irrelevant reason, or a personal point about you. Why would you think such a thing?
This clearly false doctrine is being rejected because Jesus does not teach it, or anything close to it. And neither does his apostles. Which is why the church has NEVER embraced such an impractical, allegorical view of the Sabbath at any time.
Sort of interesting that you create a straw man then knock it down, feeling real productive are we? No one I know other than your calls NCT's postion ot the Sabbath, the Everyday Sabbath. But, you, per the NCT can access Christ the fulfillment of the Law of Moses, any day or every day, you seem to have a Savior, Only Once A Week Savior. Until you cease the Every day Sabbath, I will use the Only Once A Week Savior. You don't mind Tom, since that is what you are preaching, eh??
Last edited by bob_2 (10-16-10 2:48 am)
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Bob, you and Tom are really funny, especially since you both have the same spirituality about the old and new covenant.
You reject the bible Sabbath and Tom rejects tithing along with a few other things he doesn't want to deal with like working on the Sabbath, which to him is OK. And of course, drinking is OK, too. As well as anything else Tom wants to do that suits his fancy.
In the end, since both you and Tom reject the 1844 investigative judgment doctrine, you can each create your own religion and determine for yourselves and anyone else what they should do and not do.
You both convoluted the parallel and contrast of the two covenants. So you deny the 10 commandment law applies in both covenants along with the ceremonial forms that typify the ministry of Christ.
You fail to see what remains, and what is done away. By the way, did you or Tom notice that the "new covenant" is made "with the house of Isreal"? And that Gentiles must become Jews in some context? And have you considered how Abraham is the child of Christ, and Christ the child of Abraham?
And so, Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am." And Jesus said to the Jews, "How is it that David calls his Son, Lord, if David preceeds his Son?"
This same enigma applies to the covenants, for what we call the "new covenant" preceeds the old. So the new is older than the old.
So you stumble through the bible like two blind men, each trying to instruct the other and both falling into the ditch. Simply because you both reject bible Adventism and have manufactured some false dispensational doctrine that has no continuity and certainly does not fit anything the bible teaches.
Tom, trying to defend the bible Sabbath while rejecting the 1844 judgment and EGW, and you are in some sense more consistent than Tom, because you simply reject the Sabbath.
But as I have stated before, those of us who hold a clearer biblical position can be sure that all who reject our consistent teaching will either repent, or, finally admit they don't accept and believe the bible anyway.
When Brinsmead abandon the faith, he followed a consistent line of reasoning. First, he reject EGW and the IJ. Then he rejected the Sabbath. Then he attack Paul and denied Paul's ministry. And eventually admitted he did not believe the bible and rejected the resurrection of Christ and every other fundamental Christian doctrine.
While he was wrong, his honesty is far more commendable than your own. You hope to attack bible Adventism just like he did, and still retain some fundamental bible principles. Impossible. Adventism as a system of bible truth is non-negotiable. If you attack EGW Adventism, you attack the bible itself and can only eventually abandon the bible just like RDB.
People's reasoning powers are incredibly weak and seem to fail to connect the dots. For those who are honest and show some sign of consistent intelligence, they will see the RDB's conclusions in the end, were the product of his reject of the 1844 IJ and any who do so, will eventually follow in his foot steps. If they don't, it is simply because they do not follow on and on the consistent conclusions that follow such reasoning.
He was a brilliant scholar. As long as he remained biblical, he would remain a SDA. But when he rejected Adventism, his "brilliance" led him into oblivion. If you don't go where he went, it is simply because you are too dumb to follow your own system of doctrine and theology.
Apparently, you are both deluded just enough to suit the devil, and he doesn't want you to go too far, as you may eventually see your error and inconsistency.
And you may not believe this, but what I have written is not solely to be antagonistic, but first and foremost, to be redemptive. So, I have "pressed the battle to the gate."
"He that hath and ear, let him hear."
Bill Sorensen
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Bill, I have to say your condescending tone is far from convincing, at least to me. I also note that you didn't respond to my reply to you from a while back.
Funny that you list drinking as one of the things that supposedly makes one deluded. I guess you believe that they were all drinking Welsh's grape juice in the bible?
Tithing is another very "soft target" in terms of Adventist practice.
And treating "EGW adventism" and "Bible Adventism" as equivalent is pretty sad, when you think about it. There's a large collection of completely a-biblical ideas that only appear in EGW writings.
Last edited by Yitzak (10-16-10 8:07 pm)
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You fail to see what remains, and what is done away. By the way, did you or Tom notice that the "new covenant" is made "with the house of Isreal"? And that Gentiles must become Jews in some context? And have you considered how Abraham is the child of Christ, and Christ the child of Abraham?
Bob_2 response: Yes , but only a remnant of Israel was going to accept Christ as the Messiah, the only way to salvation. In fact, one of the things Christ accomplished in living and dying, was break down the barrier between Jew and Gentile. What were those differences? . Well circumcision , the Sabbath are at least two that were not in the 7 laws of Noahide Laws that the Jews saw good Gentiles as keeping. As they came into the early Church, Paul in Acts 15 has to clarify what the Gentiles had to keep. Read what he said:
Acts 15:5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses 6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."…
19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
Last edited by bob_2 (10-16-10 8:17 pm)
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Bob_2 Response: In this situation the Jews and Gentiles were already meeting together on Sabbath, so it was not an issue, but it was made clear that circumcision was not to be commanded.
And so, Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am." And Jesus said to the Jews, "How is it that David calls his Son, Lord, if David preceeds his Son?"
Bob_2 Response: This passage is confusing even to some scholars. I recommend a good commentary such as John Gill to give you some insight.
This same enigma applies to the covenants, for what we call the "new covenant" preceeds the old. So the new is older than the old.
Bob_2 Response: I don’t see how you can say the New Covenant precedes the Old Covenant.
So you stumble through the bible like two blind men, each trying to instruct the other and both falling into the ditch. Simply because you both reject bible Adventism and have manufactured some false dispensational doctrine that has no continuity and certainly does not fit anything the bible teaches.
Bob_2 Response:So bible Adventism is your guide?? You need to read up on the types of Theology that are out there. NCT is not dispensational just because they believe the two covenants are separate. Read: http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/h … cs/nct.htm
Tom, trying to defend the bible Sabbath while rejecting the 1844 judgment and EGW, and you are in some sense more consistent than Tom, because you simply reject the Sabbath.
Bob_2 Response: Bill, I believe in a PreAdvent Judgement and is investigational like any judgement, but believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus went right before His Father in the Holy of Holies not into a 1st Compartment ministry that would generate repetition which the New Covenant is said not to have. Christ was the Atonement “lamb” to die only once.
But as I have stated before, those of us who hold a clearer biblical position can be sure that all who reject our consistent teaching will either repent, or, finally admit they don't accept and believe the bible anyway.
Bob_2 response: Bill, you do not allow the Bible to speak for itself, you come to the table with tinted, biased glasses. You can get past Col 2:16-17 without that bias.
When Brinsmead abandon the faith, he followed a consistent line of reasoning. First, he reject EGW and the IJ. Then he rejected the Sabbath. Then he attack Paul and denied Paul's ministry. And eventually admitted he did not believe the bible and rejected the resurrection of Christ and every other fundamental Christian doctrine.
Bob_2 response: Bill RDB is not part of this discussion. Those that believe any that studied RDB will end up as he did, an atheist, well, it is just plain absurd and insulting to the critical thinking of any debate partner.
While he was wrong, his honesty is far more commendable than your own. You hope to attack bible Adventism just like he did, and still retain some fundamental bible principles. Impossible. Adventism as a system of bible truth is non-negotiable. If you attack EGW Adventism, you attack the bible itself and can only eventually abandon the bible just like RDB
Bob_2 Response: Bill to suggest this is just insulting, that people looking for truth will go down the same path because their paths have crossed. You can do better than that.
People's reasoning powers are incredibly weak and seem to fail to connect the dots. For those who are honest and show some sign of consistent intelligence, they will see the RDB's conclusions in the end, were the product of his reject of the 1844 IJ and any who do so, will eventually follow in his foot steps. If they don't, it is simply because they do not follow on and on the consistent conclusions that follow such reasoning.
Bob_2 Response: Again you are plain out of line to suggest that RDB has some hold over people that had studied what he had to say. It is insulting and way out of line.
He was a brilliant scholar. As long as he remained biblical, he would remain a SDA. But when he rejected Adventism, his "brilliance" led him into oblivion. If you don't go where he went, it is simply because you are too dumb to follow your own system of doctrine and theology.
Bob_2 Response: Again you give RDB more power than anyone I have seen do. From my experience, when someone is asked if they believe RDB, most ask that really know what he teached, which RDB, which year?
Apparently, you are both deluded just enough to suit the devil, and he doesn't want you to go too far, as you may eventually see your error and inconsistency.
Bob_2 response: Again, insulting does not help when debating. There are those that point at the SDA church as devil originated like Colleen Tinker, and I think both you are wack-jobs for insulting the intelligence of truth seekers.
And you may not believe this, but what I have written is not solely to be antagonistic, but first and foremost, to be redemptive. So, I have "pressed the battle to the gate."
Bob_2 response: You have pushed the bounds of civility. It doesn’t help when searching for the truth.
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Bob, you and Tom are really funny, especially since you both have the same spirituality about the old and new covenant.
Bob_2 Response: Bill please explain what you mean here, I’m not following you.
You reject the bible Sabbath and Tom rejects tithing along with a few other things he doesn't want to deal with like working on the Sabbath, which to him is OK. And of course, drinking is OK, too. As well as anything else Tom wants to do that suits his fancy.
Bob_2 Response: I do not reject the Sabbath, it is fulfilled in Christ. You take away from Christ by hanging on to an obsolete law that Christ fulfilled by becoming our Peace. Col 2:16-17; Eph 2:11-22
In the end, since both you and Tom reject the 1844 investigative judgment doctrine, you can each create your own religion and determine for yourselves and anyone else what they should do and not do.
Bob_2 Response: I didn’t realize that is all you feel is holding the SDA church together, 1844 IJ, I believe in a PreAdvent Judgement and that it is investigational, but that it didn’t start in 1844, since Christ went directly to the Right Hand of God not the 1st Compartment to do repetitive sacrifical acts.
You both convoluted the parallel and contrast of the two covenants. So you deny the 10 commandment law applies in both covenants along with the ceremonial forms that typify the ministry of Christ.
Bob_2 Response: The covenants do not run parallel. Where did you get that from. Christ’s death ushers in the New Covenant, and only the 10 Commandments that are reiterated after His death are part of the New Covenant. Christ’s Sermon on the Mount is included also in the New Covenant also.
Last edited by bob_2 (10-16-10 8:52 pm)
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Bob 2 said: No one I know other than you calls NCT's position on the Sabbath, the Everyday Sabbath.
Tom said: This is your problem; you don’t know enough people. You don’t know church history, nor are you paying close enough attention to this discussion to stay within the facts.
The Every Day, Allegorical Sabbath was articulated by Irenaeus, in the 2nd century. It was not invented by Tom Norris in the 21.st Had you been paying attention to this discussion, you would have known this fact.
Irenaeus believed that the fourth commandment was fulfilled in a symbolic sense and therefore the Sabbath in the NC need not be taken literally. This can be seen in Adversus Haereses 4.16.1, whereby Irenaeus determines that both circumcision and the Sabbath are OC signs and symbols that could be discarded in the NT.
This theological based rejection of the 7th day Sabbath prevented the early Catholic Church from understanding and embracing the true Gospel Sabbath of Jesus and the Apostles, -in accordance with the 10 Commandments that had admittedly not be removed from the NC. This error paved the way for the invention of the weekly Sunday Sabbath, which is practiced to this very day by the RCC and most all others.
There was never a time when the church seriously tried to practice the Every Day Sabbath, which was only allegorical in nature. Rather, the church has always followed a weekly Sabbath, which is not only more practical, but also very biblical.
The OC Sabbath
To the early church fathers, circumcision was a sign given to the race of Abraham to set them apart from other races and to signify God's covenant with Abraham. The Sabbath was also a sign for the Mosaic covenant.
Circumcision, according to Irenaeus, is also a symbol, which looks forward to its fulfillment in the "circumcision without hands," while the Sabbath, too, is likewise a symbol. These OC symbols are not valid in the NC.
Irenaeus came to view the NC Sabbath as symbolic and allegory; it was now a 7 day a week doctrine. Thus the NC Sabbath was an “every day” mind set for the Christian.
Irenaeus says "the Sabbaths taught that we should continue day by day in God's service."
This interpretation reflects the application of his principle that Christ has extended the Moral law. And now, the Christian does not simply keep one day in seven but every day of the week. Hence the Every Day, Allegorical Sabbath of the church fathers.
In stretching the point and grasping for a reason to reduce the Jewish Sabbath to symbol, Irenaeus invents the "Everyday Sabbath" in order to gain doctrinal separation from the stigma of Judaism. And thus the REFORMED, (weekly,) Sabbath of the Gospels would be marginalized and rationalized away by the Gentiles until Sunday would emerge as the weekly Gentile Sabbath.
Listen to Irenaeus speak about the Everyday Sabbath in a passage from the Proof of the Apostolic Preaching, page 96:
"Nor will he [the Christian] be commanded to leave idle one day of rest, who is constantly keeping sabbath, that is, giving homage to God in the temple of God, which is man’s body, and at all times doing the works of justice."
While Irenaeus made a valiant and successful effort to defeat the Gnostics, and to reconcile and explain the Two Covenants for the Gentile church, he made a major error to overlook the (reformed) weekly Sabbath of Jesus as binding on the church.
While he also seems to be the originator of the correct ceremonial law position, that the SDA's later made famous in the 19th century, his easily refutable position about the Sabbath being relegated to Old Covenant symbol and daily New Covenant allegory, dooms his false position, and so too anyone else that is so foolish as to think there is no weekly, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath for the church.
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … #POST26961
Bob 2 said: But, you, per the NCT can access Christ the fulfillment of the Law of Moses, any day or every day, you seem to have a Savior, Only Once A Week Savior.
Tom said: Who said anything about the Christians having no access to Christ except once a week, on the Sabbath? I never said such an absurd thing. So you are just being silly when you should be repenting of this allegorical Sabbath nonsense.
Bob2 said: Until you cease the Every day Sabbath, I will use the Only Once A Week Savior. You don't mind Tom, since that is what you are preaching, eh??
Tom said: Bob you can pretend all you want about theology and church history, but count me out. It is obvious that you cannot understand this discussion about the Gospel Sabbath correctly, and it does not appear that you want to learn.
Bill, the TSDA said: Bob, you and Tom are really funny; especially since you both have the same spirituality about the old and new covenant.
Tom said: Ha! It is always comical when the TSDA’s try to explain the Two Covenants or the Gospel. Whenever they try, there is always much smoke and noise; but few facts and almost no rational or honest thinking. The TSDA’s are theological clowns for all to see and laugh at. So welcome back Bill!
Bill, the TSDA said: You reject the bible Sabbath…
Tom said: Bill, what is the “Bible Sabbath?” While you and the SDA’s think there is only one, 7th day Sabbath, you are very wrong. There is an OC Sabbath and a NC Sabbath. Both can be called the “Bible Sabbath.” So the phrase is not clear enough for use this discussion.
When you say “Bible Sabbath,” you mean the OC, non-working, 7th day Sabbath of the Moral law. But this is NOT the Sabbath for the Church. The SDA’s do not even acknowledge or realize that there is a very different, NC Sabbath for the church. Which is why we are having the discussion.
The church cannot embrace the OC Sabbath of the Jews for many reasons. They can only embrace the NC Sabbath. This is where we are in this discussion. The IJ is old news. It is a dead doctrine, along with tithe and abstinence.
So we have moved on to deal with the Gospel Sabbath, which is very much alive. I suggest you pay attention.
Bill said: …and Tom rejects tithing along with a few other things he doesn't want to deal with like working on the Sabbath, which to him is OK. And of course, drinking is OK, too. As well as anything else Tom wants to do that suits his fancy.
Tom said: Ha! There is no “Gospel of Tom or Bob.” The point of this discussion is to understand what the NT teaches about the “Gospel of Christ.” If there is a Gospel Sabbath for the church, all should want to know about it, don’t you think? It is not Sunday, nor what the SDA’s teach. So what is it?
As for tithe, this OC doctrine, which supported an elite, Priesthood of the Jews, was banished from the church and so too the OC Sabbath with it. This is not an opinion, but a verifiable fact of the record.
On what basis was tithe removed from the church?
Answer: Because it is against the Gospel and against the Priesthood of all believers.
Unlike the OC, where only a small minority of MEN were Levitical priests, everyone in the NC Church is automatically a Priest of God. 100%. Both men and women.
1Pet. 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you eout of darkness into His marvelous light;
Rev. 5:9 And they *sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
Rev. 5:10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
So how can there be tithe in the church? (And how can anyone say that only men can be ordained to the Gospel ministry as the SDA’s teach?) This is madness.
There cannot be any doctrine of tithe in the church, much less a hierarchal organization chart as the RC’s and SDA’s have developed. There was absolutely no such doctrine as tithe ever practiced in the apostolic church. IT NEVER HAPPENED.
Thus the SDA’s today are great liars to teach that God requires tithing in the church. It is not true. They are just money-grubbing wolves that teach an outrageously false, self-serving doctrine. They are blind to the facts that condemn them.
Working on the Sabbath:
As for the Sabbath, there was an exclusion in the ancient Sabbath Law whereby the Priests could work on the Sabbath and not be guilty. This Priestly exclusion becomes the basis for Jesus’, REFOMRED and very active, Gospel Sabbath.
None of this has to do with Tom Norris wanting to do or not do anything on the Sabbath or any other day. It has everything to do with what the NT teaches.
So don’t shoot the messenger. The facts are what they are, not what anyone may want them to be. Those who honestly want to understand the Gospel, must ignore most all of what the SDA’s teach.
The Grape Juice Gospel of the SDA’s
As for this issue of wine: The SDA’s have a processed, pasteurized, and manufactured Gospel, just like the pretend wine they drink at the Lord’s Supper. It may look like the original from a distance, but upon close examination, it is a worthless fraud more suited to children than adults.
Thus the SDA’s have developed a “grape juice” Gospel, one that is very wrong and unknown to the apostolic church. Their doctrine of abstinence is an insult to the Gospel, proving once again that they are not following the teachings of the Word, nor do they have any interest in doing so.
So their insistence that wine in the Bible is non-alcoholic Grape Juice is patently false, theologically wrong, and historically impossible. They have been caught in yet another great doctrinal fabrication that showcases their cultic incompetence and gross dishonesty.
Every honest Bible scholar in the world, as well as all those familiar with the history of the Middle East, readily admits that wine in the Bible is not grape juice as the silly SDA’s teach. Jesus and the Jews drank real wine and so too did the church for the Eucharist. There was no such thing as “Grape Juice” in the ancient world; it was a much later invention.
Those that think otherwise, and refuse real wine at the Lord’s Supper, are also refusing the real Gospel and the real Spirit. They will not enter the Kingdom of God, nor should they want to, because there is going to be a big party, with lots of wine drinking.
Matt. 26:27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
Matt. 26:28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
Matt. 26:29 “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”
The SDA’s are so blind, that they have actually embraced the Muslim doctrine of abstinence. And they are so stupid that they don’t know it. This false doctrine of abstinence is neither Jewish nor Christian. But yet the SDA’s proudly and loudly pretend otherwise, as they try to teach others their worthless, legalistic, nonsense.
Wow! How stupid and rebellious can the SDA’s get? They are making fools of themselves, like the Mormons, who also embrace one silly myth after another, but yet they too think they are speaking for God and correcting all others. Pitiful.
The SDA’s are far worse then many have imagined. They have far more error than truth, and it gets worse every day as they spend more and more money on propaganda and marketing. They are in the dark.
Bill said: In the end, since both you and Tom reject the 1844 investigative judgment doctrine, you can each create your own religion and determine for yourselves and anyone else what they should do and not do.
Tom said: There are already way too many religions and churches in the world, and it is time for many of them to be exposed for the frauds they are, which includes the SDA’s. They may win the prize for creating the most dishonest and incompetent religious package. They have worked hard to confuse themselves and everyone else as well, which is why the promote Pluralism, so I think they deserve to be recognized for such an accomplishment. Don’t you?
Today EVERYONE IN THE WORLD, that is educated and honest, rejects the IJ and 1844. Starting with the most experienced of all SDA scholars, Dr. Ford and then the late Raymond Cottrell.
In fact, there is a very long list, MILLONS of people long, that have repudiated the IJ, and I am glad to say that, I too, am one of many that have REPENTED OF THE IJ. Let all that seek Eternal Life, repent of the IJ, tithe, and all false doctrine before it is too late.
So this is not about creating a new religion, but all about trying to correct the many errors that are preventing the church from reaching a correct and clear understanding of the Gospel.
It is time, not for a new religion, but for the church to correctly teach the Gospel, including the correct Sabbath and organizational structure, as well as eschatology. It is time for the church to wake up, repent, and believe the Gospel, because the Judgments of God are not far away…
So Bill, stop pretending that everyone else is wrong, and only a handful of cultic, SDA fanatics, have the truth. They don’t have truth or rational minds. Sorry.
Bill said: You both convoluted the parallel and contrast of the two covenants.
Tom said: Don’t confuse Bob’s strange views with what I am advocating. I no more agree with him than you do. (I knew your alliance with him would not last.)
Bill said: So you deny the 10-commandment law applies in both covenants along with the ceremonial forms that typify the ministry of Christ.
Tom said: I have never been one of those uninformed critics that claim the Moral law was “abolished.” Nor have I ever said there are no ceremonial laws for the church, of course there are. And one of them, the Eucharist, demands the use of real wine, not grape juice, which you deny.
So stop pretending I believe things I don’t. Can you do that? Can you just stick to the facts and try to be rational?
Bill said: You fail to see what remains, and what is done away.
Tom said: Many, like Bob and Elaine, do indeed fail to see the correct details of the Two Covenants. But so too do all SDA’s. That is why they embrace OC Tithing, and the Sabbath, and food laws. This is very wrong.
Here are some posts that deals with the Two Covenants:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … enants.htm
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ants-1.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm
Bill said: By the way, did you or Tom notice that the "new covenant" is made "with the house of Isreal…"?
Tom said: Come on Bill, I have understood this point for many decades. And so too the one that the Gentiles must become spiritual Jews.
I have been saying this for years, including the point that the Christian Faith is actually Reformed Judaism. There can be no Gentile doctrine in the church, and to the extent there is, like Sunday, or the IJ, or abstinence; it is a sure sign of error. I remember this position caused a stir back on JR’s ATomorrow Forum.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … l-Jews.htm
So Bill, you need to stop pretending that no one knows anything but you. And stop ignoring the record of this discussion. You were around when these points were made and thus you should know better. Unless you start removing some of your errors, like the IJ, you will forever remain in the dark no matter how much you read the Bible.
Bill said: So you stumble through the bible like two blind men, each trying to instruct the other and both falling into the ditch.
Tom said: Bill, you need to stop with the insults, which are not based on fact.
You have not disproved any point of Adventist Reform. Nor has Bob, who is also very confused about the Gospel. So stop pretending otherwise. Anyone who is still holding on to Traditional Adventism today, like you or Goldstein, has certainly stumbled into a very deep ditch.
The only way out for you and others is to repudiate the IJ and Glacier View, as well as tithe and many other errors. But I can only help you so much. You have to have enough common sense and Spirit to understand the issues and repent.
Bill said: Simply because you both reject bible Adventism and have manufactured some false dispensational doctrine that has no continuity and certainly does not fit anything the bible teaches.
Tom said: “Bible Adventism” is not a valid, correct, or definitive term. So stop making up worthless points, pretending they are true.
See a discussion about “The Continuity versus Discontinuity debate.”
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopi … 8886#p8886
If there were any doctrine in the Laodicean Church that is “manufactured” and “fits nothing in the Bible,” it would be the IJ. This is the most convoluted, dishonest, and impossible doctrine in the church today. Until you can repent and repudiate this great error, and a few more, like tithe and the OC Sabbath, you have no basis or standing to disparage anyone’s theology. You need to go to your room and think about your sorry theology and your bad attitude.
I suggest that you follow the teaching of Jesus on this point and first get your own theology in order before you try to instruct others.
Matt. 7:3 “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Matt. 7:4 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
Matt. 7:5 “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
The IJ, tithe, and the OC Sabbath, represent many “logs” that have prevented the SDA’s from seeing the Gospel correctly. Unless they repent, and remove this forest of error from their faces, they will remain blind and lost. Their heads full of termites and sawdust, unable to see the Gospel, much less explain it to others.
Bill said: Tom, trying to defend the bible Sabbath while rejecting the 1844 judgment and EGW; and you are in some sense more consistent than Tom, because you simply reject the Sabbath.
Tom said: What is this double-talk about the “Bible Sabbath.” What does this mean to you?
Answer: The OC, weekly Sabbath of the Jews. Where work is strictly prohibited and many rules and regulations control the way the day is observed.
But this is the wrong answer. There is a NC Sabbath for the church, not an OC version. And it has NO RULES against working. THIS Sabbath is under discussion; this is what Adventist Reform is promoting. The weekly, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath.
As for 1844 and the IJ; there is no use in defending error. For what purpose? At some point, the facts must trump cultic myth and incompetent instruction by the SDA leaders. Sorry. The IJ is a dead doctrine. It does not even have the support of Ellen White as a pillar, as the church dishonestly taught many.
Bill the IJ fanatic said: But as I have stated before, those of us who hold a clearer biblical position can be sure that all who reject our consistent teaching will either repent, or, finally admit they don't accept and believe the bible anyway.
Tom said: Ha! So the TSDA’s think they have the best view of doctrine, even the most “consistent” and clear. What a delusion! What a sad joke.
Bill said: When Brinsmead abandoned the faith, he followed a consistent line of reasoning. First, he rejected EGW and the IJ. Then he rejected the Sabbath. Then he attacked Paul and denied Paul's ministry. And eventually admitted he did not believe the bible and rejected the resurrection of Christ and every other fundamental Christian doctrine.
Tom said: Ha! After all that, and you still think this guy is great? Why? He is all over the place, stating with error and ending up with error.
Furthermore, I see you have missed the real point of this cautionary tale. Which is; beware anyone so obsessed with the IJ or the White Estates version of Ellen White.
There is something wrong with those so easily indoctrinated into Traditional Adventism. There is no telling where they will end up. Many are not stable people to begin with, and time has proven this observation with RDB as well as with Koresh, and many others who have gone over the cultic cliff.
Even Dough Batchlor was a nut job, living naked in a cave before he discovered Traditional Adventism. But he is just as wrong as RB or Koresh, for most every thing he teaches, like the Gospel, the IJ, Tithe, the OC Sabbath, Abstinence, Sunday laws, etc is wrong. Very wrong.
The fact of the matter is this: RB started out promoting the IJ as a means to expedite the 2nd Coming. His “Awaking Message” was a call for the SDA’s to get serious about their sanctification so that the IJ could be completed.
His message was one of gross legalism and perfectionism. This is where the few TSDA’s that are left, like you Bill, still stand. Which is why you liked RB in the first place. You were, and still are, an obsessive IJ fanatic. A cultic Sabbatarian that cheered the exile of Dr. Ford and the true Gospel.
While RB was hardly the first SDA to promote the IJ and Sanctification within Adventism, he caused a stir, as well as a challenge to the leadership, who also promoted Sanctification and the IJ. But they didn’t take it as serious or as far as the blunt speaking, passionate RB.
Of course this is when the story gets interesting because Dr. Ford enters the picture. As a leading SDA theologian, one that trained SDA ministers in Australia, he was tasked by the GC to correct RB’s anti-Protestant theology and stop this growing movement that was obsessed with Sanctification and the IJ.
Mission accomplished. Dr. Ford was so successful that RB repented of the IJ, and embraced Luther’s view of the Gospel.
Such a dramatic turnaround by RB caused great confusion, even as it set Dr. Ford on a path that led to a showdown about the IJ and the definition of the Gospel, as well as the Three Angels Messages.
Glacier View should have been the place where the church came together to better understand the Gospel and the Judgment, as well as the truth about how the Pioneers really viewed IJ. (Which was very different from how the White Estate had taught.)
It should have led the SDA’s to understand that the IJ was not correct, and that the church needed serious REFORM, even a better and more correct Sabbath doctrine.
Instead, the leaders double-crossed Dr. Ford and threw their support back towards RB’s earlier doctrine about the IJ and sanctification. Such wild theological mood swings was accompanied by declaring Dr. Ford a heretic for denouncing the IJ and the legalistic Gospel that goes along with it.
So what could have been a positive and progressive understanding about the Gospel and the Sabbath, turned into a negative and destructive schism, thanks to the dishonest and incompetent leaders.
As a result, MILLIONS left the church over the IJ, even as Raymond Cottrell declared Dr. Ford’s view correct. This post Glacier View schism is still taking place today, as new SDA’s soon discover that the IJ is great error, and that the SDA church is very dishonest and wrong about many things, especially the Gospel, the most important doctrine of the church. Then they leave. And so it goes round and round, this great circus of religious error.
Bill said: While he was wrong, his honesty is far more commendable than your own.
Tom said: Those who turn their backs on the Gospel are not to be commended at all. Nor are they honest with God or man. So your accolades for RB are very wrong and against the Word. Rather, the church should be warned of such errors of faith by those that either “desert” or “oppose the Gospel.”
2Tim. 4:9-10 Make every effort to come to me soon; for Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica;
2Tim. 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds.
2Tim. 4:15 Be on guard against him yourself, for he vigorously opposed our teaching.
So Paul would not speak well of RB and neither should you. He was confused and wrong about the Gospel from the very start of his ministry, and he ended up even more confused and wrong at the end. Thus, he was an enemy of the Gospel from first to last, even though he did grasp a few Gospel points, for a short period of time in between his great errors.
Dr. Ford on the other hand, honestly followed the scriptures and never left the Gospel path. He grew in Gospel understanding, even to the place where only the Gospel mattered, regardless of slander and persecution by his fellows. He is the real Gospel Hero in this story, not the fool RB, who now lives a hopeless life without God and the Gospel.
Bill said: You hope to attack bible Adventism just like he did, and still retain some fundamental bible principles. Impossible. Adventism as a system of bible truth is non-negotiable. If you attack EGW Adventism, you attack the bible itself and can only eventually abandon the bible just like RDB.
Tom said: Since when is the Gospel defined as the “SDA system of truth?” This is beyond absurd. It is cultic and arrogant for those that come online so far downstream in church history to think they have all the Gospel answers. Many have been saved over the years, long before there ever was an SDA church, proving that their views are not necessary for anyone to find salvation.
Furthermore, the SDA’s have developed a “system of error” that is based on legions of myth, historical fraud, and a false Gospel. Which is why MILLIONS have left them, and why they cannot grow in civilized parts of the world. Their growth is only in the most uneducated and backwards of places, like Africa and South America.
But such a dishonest marketing program, targeted to the naive and uninformed, will eventually backfire, because even those in the third world will eventually go online, study the issues, and walk away from so much error and corruption.
In fact, I receive e-mails all the time from Africa, India, etc, begging for materials about Adventist Reform. Thus it is only a matter of time before the facts are explained to all, even to those in the 3rd world. Here is a recent e-mail from Africa.
Dear brothers and sisters there.
Praise the Holy name of the Lord Jesus Christ .
My name is James Irungu Mwangi from Nairobi Kenya , and I am an adventist, preaching in eastern region of Kenya. And when i visit your website, (Adventist Reform), i was very happy to see even there our Lord still has a people who seeing that the way things are doing in our beloved church are against the Bible and EG white testimonies.
So am requesting humbly any materials that can help us here to know about the time we are living and to prepare us for the great day of Lord. So if you have any thing like booklets , dvd’s, magazines, and anything else we will appreciate whether is old or new it will assist us.
Thanks and may God bless you and provide you with whatever you want all the time, Amen.
In Christ, James Irungu Mwangi
po box 00200,20471
Nairobi Kenya.
irungujames2006@yahoo.com
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Even many SDA’s in the 3rd world complain about false doctrine in the church and want reform. The level of corruption in these places is mind boggling and so too is the false doctrine. The SDA Empire is a fragile concoction of doctrinal error and gross mismanagement, and it is only a matter of time before the status quo collapses in a rotten heap of nonsense and corruption.
In other words, it is time for Adventists to stop playing games and get serious about their Gospel mission. The present situation is not sustainable, even as a paradigm shift from the 3rd to the 4th Angels Message is changing things forever.
So Bill, stop using this “Bible Adventism” phrase, as if it has any worthwhile or correct meaning. What you really mean is this: “Any that reject 1844 and the IJ- are wrong.” And this position is non-negotiable for you and apparently for the SDA leaders in Silver Spring.
So be it. Those that choose a path of self-destruction and Gospel error have no one to blame but themselves.
Let all understand that those who continue to embrace the IJ, Tithe, and the OC Sabbath have fallen from Grace. They have repudiated the Gospel and the Spirit. They are blind to the Word, and to facts of church history and doctrinal progression. Their names will be removed from the Book of Life, like all Laodiceans that refuse to repent and believe the Gospel.
Bill said: People's reasoning powers are incredibly weak and seem to fail to connect the dots.
Tom said: Bill, LOOK IN THE MIORROR! How did you write this with a straight face? I busted out laughing when I read it. Perhaps you should be a comedian, instead of trying to be an amateur theologian? I think you have a gift to make people laugh.
Seriously, anyone today that thinks Jesus or the apostles teaches the IJ, has lost their reasoning powers. They must be unable to read or comprehend the NT, or the writings of Luther or others that understand the Gospel. They are so brainwashed by cultic, SDA propaganda, and an amateurish, proof-texting, hermeneutic, that they can’t see the Gospel. They talk nonsense and think that is the Gospel. Sad.
Bill, the delusional said: For those who are honest and show some sign of consistent intelligence, they will see the RDB's conclusions in the end, were the product of his reject of the 1844 IJ and any who do so, will eventually follow in his foot steps.
Tom said: Like I said. You are obsessed with the false doctrine of the IJ. You think this error is the greatest of church doctrines, but alas, no scholars, and no denomination, other than SDA’s, has ever embraced this great error. And none ever will.
The IJ is a dead doctrine. Dr. Ford killed it with the Gospel, and Tom Norris came along and held the funeral for all to see. So the IJ is dead and buried. Time to move on from dead doctrines.
Who will resurrect the IJ? Goldstein? Doug Batchlor? Wilson Junior? Ha! No one can save the IJ, or defend the many OC errors of the SDA’s. Sorry. It is time to for the Advent Movement to get serious about its eschatological mission and repent of TA, and move forward to the 4th Angels Message, which contains the genuine Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath.
Bill said: RDB was a brilliant scholar.
Tom said: Bill, are you back to doing your stand-up comedy routine? Please stop making me laugh so hard. This is not the Comedy Channel, where such jokes are expected.
RDB was no Gospel scholar at all. In fact, he was a loose cannon that started a small religious movement inside the SDA church that was based on the great error of the IJ. The he repudiated what he first taught and moved on to a more mature view of the law and the Gospel. Then he repudiated that, and thus he was unable to stick with anything, and now he is not even a Christian.
So where is the “brilliance”? Since when is being unstable, double-minded, and full of doubt something to be praised?
James 1:6 But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind.
James 1:7 For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord,
James 1:8 being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
Dr. Ford, who is a brilliant scholar and world class theologian, is the one that had to explain to RB that there is no such doctrine as the IJ, and that the Gospel associated with this doctrine is also very false and wrong. So he was the adult in the room, correcting the gross perfection that RB had gotten himself into.
Thus RB discovered from Dr. Ford, a real scholar, that the IJ is essentially a Roman Catholic based doctrine, and not Protestant at all. Such a wake up call, sent RB off into another direction, which would not last. Pity.
Bill the confused said: As long as RDB remained biblical, he would remain a SDA. But when he rejected Adventism, his "brilliance" led him into oblivion.
Tom said: Ha! What you really mean is that the IJ is Biblical, and all those that don’t agree are wrong and lost.
Sorry Bill, you are not a scholar or even an honest searcher for truth. Your inability to make spiritual progress over the years is like RB, your hero, heading in the wrong direction.
This IJ obsession will chase away the Spirit and lead to a dark world of spiritual confusion, legalism, and eternal death. While others who repent of the IJ see Gospel truth more and more clearly, your ability to understand will be take away, and so too others that deny the Gospel Sabbath. It looks like this has already happened for you and others. Sad.
Matt. 25:29 “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt. 25:30 “Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and nashing of teeth.
Bill said: If you don't go where he went, it is simply because you are too dumb to follow your own system of doctrine and theology.
Tom said: Wow! So Dr. Ford is too dumb to understand that he should follow RB and reject God, the Bible, and the Gospel? Do you really think the IJ is that important of a doctrine? Do you really think all are lost that refuse such legalism?
This is very sad. Those that choose the IJ, have fallen from Grace. They do not understand the Word or the Gospel correctly. They are spiritually blind, and guilty of great error that will be their doom.
Bill said: Apparently, you are both deluded just enough to suit the devil, and he doesn't want you to go too far, as you may eventually see your error and inconsistency.
And you may not believe this, but what I have written is not solely to be antagonistic, but first and foremost, to be redemptive. So, I have "pressed the battle to the gate."
"He that hath and ear, let him hear."
Tom said: First, those who misunderstand the Gospel have no business trying to correct those that do understand it. A false Gospel is hardly “redemptive.” It is the opposite, regardless if taught by Peter, James, or Bill Sorenson and the SDA’s.
Second, you need to stop pretending that you are speaking for anyone but yourself. You do not speak for RDB, or the Devil. Nor do you speak for Jesus or the apostles, much less for the Reformers or Adventist Pioneers, that all condemn your false views.
You need to study more and preach less. You are in no position to lecture anyone about church history or theology, much less the Gospel. Come back when you get your facts straight, and when you can admit you are wrong about Traditional Adventism. Then perhaps you can make a useful contribution to the Kingdom of God.
Yitzak said: Bill, I have to say your condescending tone is far from convincing, at least to me. I also note that you didn't respond to my reply to you from a while back.
Tom said: The TSDA’s have a foul and arrogant attitude, much like the 1st century Pharisees that also misunderstood and rejected the Gospel.
Moreover, they are very dishonest debaters who refuse to acknowledge the many facts that condemn them. So they routinely ignore whatever points they don’t like, pretending that they are above error or challenge.
Over the past decade, one SDA apologist after another, led by Clifford Goldstein, has fled this discussion, being unable to defend their many false views, starting with the IJ. What does that tell you?
Answer: There is no defense for TA. All must REPENT of the IJ and embrace the Gospel teaching of Dr. Ford if they want Eternal Life.
Yitzak said: Funny that you (Bill) list drinking as one of the things that supposedly makes one deluded. I guess you believe that they were all drinking Welsh's grape juice in the bible?
Tom said: The TSDA’s are so uneducated and brainwashed that they really think drinking wine is sinful. Thus they are shocked to discover the truth, and in fact, refuse to believe the facts.
Those who refuse to drink real wine in honor of the Gospel, as directed by Christ, are refuting Christ and his example, even as they incorrectly practice the Lord’s Supper, and many others things. Unless they repent, they are lost.
Yitzak said: Tithing is another very "soft target" in terms of Adventist practice.
Tom said: The TSDA’s love the OC, and thus tithe makes perfect sense to their confused minds. But anyone that wants to embrace the NC must repudiate tithe, unclean food laws, and the OC Sabbath, just to name a few errors.
Yitzak said: And treating "EGW adventism" and "Bible Adventism" as equivalent is pretty sad, when you think about it. There's a large collection of completely a-biblical ideas that only appear in EGW writings.
Tom said: The TSDA’s have been very dishonest and corrupt when it comes to Ellen White. Their reaction to the discovery of the massive fraud in the White Estate was disbelief and denial. They didn’t want to believe this new information about 1888, nor did they call for an investigation to verify the facts.
They like Arthur White’s version of Traditional Adventism, and they like they way that Ellen White has been portrayed, as a great legalists like themselves. So they look the other way, pretending that all is well in the White Estate, and that no reform is necessary.
The level of dishonesty, corruption, and doctrinal error in the SDA church is mind-boggling. No wonder the true PAJ, which is the LM, demands that they repent or be lost. But they are too much like the Jews, and thus they refuse to confess and repent, just like the Jews.
At some point, the mission of the Advent Movement must go forward, even if it means the SDA’s are left behind, looking for the Sunday laws, and trying to pass the IJ so they can be safe to save. Pitiful.
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (10-21-10 9:20 pm)
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Since you wish to hang on to even a Reformed Sabbath, you ought worship in the Synagogue also. Who authorize you to change that. If you are going to hold on to Sabbath may as well worship in a Synagogue, eh?? Who aurthorized you to pick ans choose what you want to believe in.?
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Bob 2 said: Since you wish to hang on to even a Reformed Sabbath, you ought worship in the Synagogue also.
Tom said: Bob, you seem to be thinking like many former SDA's, like Richard Fredericks or Dale Ratzlaff, and many others, who are understandably very angry with the SDA’s for being so wrong about the IJ and the Gospel, and pushing a legalistic Ellen White down everyone’s throat, etc, etc.
I get it.
I understand why so many are angry and hurt, and why millions have walked out the door. Everyone should have much righteous indignation about Glacier View and how the SDA church is managed. I fully agree.
There is great cause for all SDA’s to be angry at this dishonest and incompetent Denomination. The double-talking leaders have taught us all many myths and false doctrines over the years, and they are still so arrogant today, that they refuse to admit any wrong doing, much less repent and reform. Which makes people even angrier.
So no one should be happy about being so horribly deceived and manipulated by this corrupt, money mongering organization that could care less about the Gospel teachings of Jesus.
I am personally stunned at the level of incompetence and corruption of the SDA church. It is worse than anyone ever imagined, and there is no excuse for this wicked situation that would make the Pioneers cry out for reform if they could.
Consequently, many people want to throw out most everything SDA, including and especially the Sabbath. And they do so with gusto, even as many embrace the Sunday Sabbath. (Or in your case, they say there is no weekly Sabbath for the church to meet, because every day is the Sabbath and Jesus is the Sabbath and blah, blah, blah.)
But the point is still the same. Everyone dumps on the Sabbath and treats it like the plague. Many conclude: “It must be totally wrong if the SDA’s promoted it.”
But guess what?
Sunday is still a fraud. And there is still a weekly Sabbath for the church, as there has been since the beginning of the church. Just because the SDA’s failed to fully understand it, hardly means there is no such doctrine. There is, and there will always be a Sabbath doctrine for the church.
The question is this: What is it? And why is it important?
No one should let the many errors of the SDA’s, or any other confused cult, drive them to become bitter, or blind to the genuine Gospel teachings of Christ, which alone are salvific.
Nor is false doctrine to be countered with more false doctrine. Which is what happened when the so-called SDA Evangelicals traded in their false, 7th day Sabbath, for the 1st day error. They just compounded their mistake. This was no cure.
Furthermore, since when is following the teaching of Jesus called “hanging on.” Hanging on to what? The OC Sabbath Law?
No. This is not what Adventist Reform is promoting. (You must not be paying attention.)
The Gospel Sabbath comes to the church with an EXEMPTION from the 4th commandment. Which means it cannot be the same Sabbath as the OC Jews, which was based directly on the Moral law, which prohibited work. Fail to comprehend this point, and you will never understand the NC Sabbath or the Gospel.
Jesus never taught the OC Sabbath of the SDA’s, as they claim, and it is time for the Adventists to get serious about what the NT teaches about the Sabbath and stop embracing so much myth and error. This is one of many reasons why they need to repent; they don’t even have the doctrine of the Sabbath correct, even though this is part of their name and mission.
The Gospel Sabbath is only for those that are paying attention to Jesus, the head theologian of the church, and the Lord of the Sabbath. Those that “hang on” to the words of Jesus, will understand the Gospel Sabbath. Those that don’t, won’t.
Those that twist the Word and ignore what they don’t like and play games with the Gospel, (like all SDA’s), will no more comprehend the Reformed Sabbath than did the Pharisees that condemned Christ’s disciples for Sabbath breaking.
Luke 19:48 for all the people were hanging on to every word Jesus said.
Matt. 12:12 “How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
Matt. 12:13 Then He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand!” He stretched it out, and it was restored to normal, like the other.
Matt. 12:14 But the Pharisees went out and conspired against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.
Those who fail to understand the Gospel Sabbath, will not comprehend nor embrace the genuine Gospel. They will be lost. So it is very important to get this doctrine correct, which is what the SDA’s have been saying all along. It’s just that they too failed to understand it correctly, and now they refuse to confess and repent.
Bob 2 said: Who authorized you to change that...Who authorized you to pick and choose what you want to believe in?
Tom said: Those that follow Christ, must do so. There can be no picking and choosing of doctrine, as if the Gospel were a potluck buffet, where many different Christ’s are available for our selection.
This is what the Laodicean church has done. They offer a multitude of False Christ’s for every possible taste and desire. In fact, there are so many, that there is no room on the table for the genuine Christ.
So one can have a Mormon Christ, that teaches all manner of absurdity, including tithe, or a RC, Sunday keeping, Pope worshiping Christ, or Joel Osteen’s capitalistic Christ, who wants to make you rich. Or a number of SDA versions that feature an IJ, tithe paying, OC Sabbath keeping Christ, who also teaches pluralism, and is full of double-talk, and on and on goes the selection of Christ from this religious buffet of false doctrine and death.
No wonder Jesus is so disgusted with the Laodicean Church. They are truly the most confused, wretched, and incorrect church in the history of the church. There is nothing good said about this Remnant.
There is only one Gospel, Christ, and Spirit, even as only real wine can be served at the Lord’s Supper. There is only one “authorized” 7th day Sabbath for the Gospel believing church.
The work of the SDA’s was to promote the correct Christ, and the true Sabbath, preparing the way for the Second Coming. But they have failed spectacularly, like all those that went before them. Which is why they must repent and reform or else.
You ask: Who authorized the Gospel Sabbath?
According to Jesus, God is the author. Thus Jesus’ surprising and counter-intuitive Sabbath Reforms were taught in the name and authority of God.
Jesus claimed to be doing what his Father showed him about the Sabbath, even as he referenced his own authority to further make the point. This outraged the Jews for a number of reasons, leading directly to his death.
Those who refute the NC Sabbath, are also refuting the Gospel. Like the Jews, they too will be lost, thus the doctrine of the Sabbath is a good test of who is paying attention to the Gospel of Christ and who is following a fraudulent Messiah.
So the SDA’s were correct to teach that the Sabbath would become a very important and telling doctrine at the end of time. It’s just that they had the WRONG view of the Sabbath and the Gospel, and now they too must repent or be lost.
How ironic? But Jews did the same thing. They too thought all others were wrong about God, except them. But it turned out that they did not know God very well, even to the point of killing his Son, and their Messiah. The SDA’s are very much like the Jews. Sad.
Bob2 said: If you are going to hold on to Sabbath may as well worship in a Synagogue, eh??
Tom said: I am not “holding on” to the OC Sabbath of the Jews or SDA’s. Do you understand this point? Does Elaine? Please stop pretending that I am promoting the OC Sabbath.
In fact, I am explaining that all SDA’s need to REPENT of their 7th day, OC Sabbath, where work is a sin and play even more so. This is a very wrong, false Sabbath.
But that does not mean there is not a weekly Sabbath for the church. There is. And it should be very obvious to all. However, I don’t think some can process this material right now. Many people’s brains have been damaged by so many years of SDA propaganda, which makes it difficult for them to follow this discussion.
Bob, perhaps you need to go back and re-read some of these posts more carefully?
As for your remark that “we might as well meet in a synagogue,” it was rather insightful, even though you meant it otherwise.
Let all understand that God’s plan was for every Jewish synagogue in the 1st century to become a CHURCH, where the NC would be proclaimed and God worshipped, every 7th day, on the Reformed, Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
But the Jews in Jerusalem resisted the plan of God, and banned the Gospel from their places of worship, imprisoning the Apostles to underscore their resolve. The Jewish leaders were determined that their Temple and synagogues would not be used to promote the Gospel, even as they tried to stamp out this NC teaching fully and completely.
Later, Paul would try again to use the synagogue as a church, but he was rebuffed in every town. So not one synagogue officially embraced the Gospel, and thus none of them became churches. NOT ONE!
So the Gospel was locked out of the synagogues, and thus both Jew and Gentile believers had to set up their own places of worship, which they did. Consequently, the church started out in people’s homes, not synagogues, as God intended.
Today, the genuine Gospel has been locked out of every Laodicean denomination, including and especially the SDA’s, who are so very much like the wicked Jews of the 1st century.
This is why the LM is so harsh and universal, excluding no one, much less the unbelieving Jews, err, I mean, the SDA’s, with their OC Sabbath keeping, and tithing, etc.
At some point the Gospel will make a dramatic comeback, in spite of everything stacked against it. No doubt the House Church will be on the forefront of this final Gospel movement, because organized religion is more interested in cash flow then Gospel truth. Just like in the 1st century.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for genuine Sabbath Reform
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