NCT Exposed As Error

tom_norris · 06-16-11 12:34 pm

Question: NCT; Sabbath fulfilled in Christ.

Act 18:6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

Why do you believe that after the above Scriptures, the word Sabbath or Sabbath day is no longer mentioned in the whole Bible except in:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

I believe it is because Paul had no need to go behind the Jews anymore, hence he had no need to preach on the Sabbath day, which means that he never kept the Sabbath after Jesus's death, but had to meet the Jews on their turf.

Therefore, do you agree or disagree ?

If he kept the Sabbath then he would have preached to the Gentiles on the Sabbath days after he turned his ministry to them.(Acts:18;6)

Ian, from Caroni, Trinidad and Tobago
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Tom Norris said: What about NCT?

Christ did not fulfill the Sabbath; much less abolish this weekly day of congregational fellowship for the New Israel, the church. Jesus claim to be Lord of the Sabbath, as well as his controversial teaching about how to act on this reformed Gospel day, precludes such an interpretation.

How does a person even fulfill a day? And where does Jesus teach that he is the replacement for the weekly Sabbath rest?

Did Jesus ever claim to be our Sabbath rest? No. In fact, Jesus NC Sabbath teaching did not focus on rest at all, but on Gospel action, good works, and lots of activity.

So here again, the anti-Sabbatarians are misunderstanding and overlooking the teaching of Jesus about the Sabbath. Their outrageous claim that only 90% of the Moral Law can be found in the teachings of Jesus is clearly wrong. All four Gospels feature Jesus reformed Sabbath teaching for the church.

All Christian doctrine is Jewish and thus the NC is fully Semitic, even as it is based entirely on the OC. With this fact in mind, how does one remove the Sabbath teachings of Christ? On what basis?

After the Jews rejected the Gospel, it went to the Gentiles. But regardless, the Gospel is still a Jewish Story. Thus there is no such thing as any Gentile doctrine in the church, which means Sunday is wrong. And so too OC Sabbath keeping, (which is Semitic based). Only the 7th day Gospel Sabbath, as reformed by Jesus for the church, is correct doctrine for all Laodiceans.

Moreover, if the Sabbath was abolished, why does Paul still acknowledge its existence and invite the whole Gentile town to hear the Gospel on the Sabbath? He could have preached to the town on any day, so why choose the 7th day Sabbath?

Answer: Because the Sabbath is part of the Gospel Story. Especially this NC Sabbath, which is very different from the “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the Jews and the later developing SDA’s.

Paul, a Jew was a trained OC Sabbath keeper. However, once he embraced the Gospel, he repudiated OC Sabbath keeping and embraced the 7th day, Reformed Sabbath of Christ. Which allows for all manner of activity to take place, including preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Paul made many Jewish enemies because he repudiated the OC Sabbath of the Jews. But few seem to understand that he replaced the OC Sabbath with a NC version.

Listen to Paul explain that while he is not under the Law, neither is he without it, even as he is under the law of Christ, which includes the reformed, active, 7th day Sabbath, which Paul embraces and defends in his letters.

1Cor. 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.

1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

1Cor. 9:22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.

1Cor. 9:23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

Paul is not anti-Sabbatarian. While he is against the OC Sabbath of the Jews, with their many rules against cooking, traveling, and working, he embraces the NC Sabbath of Christ.

This is why he says no one is to “judge” our Sabbath behavior and take away our Gospel Freedom in Christ. Which is a reference to the Judaizers in the church who wanted to follow the Law, and make people observe the Sabbath in a legalistic and OC manner.

Christ defines the NC Sabbath, and it is only to him that we must give account. No one else has any say about our Sabbath activity.

Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —

As for the Sabbath rest in Hebrews; the text is speaking of the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. It is saying that there is a doctrine of the Sabbath for the church, even as it makes clear that Jesus was active in the creation process, for which the Sabbath is a memorial.

The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242

Heb. 1:1-2 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

The Lord’s Day

While most all think the Lord’s Day means Sunday, this is an impossible reading of the passage. John the Revelator was a witness to Jesus many Sabbath debates. He understood and embraced Jesus’ NC teaching about the Sabbath. Because Jesus claimed to be the Lord of the Sabbath, John is calling the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath, “the Lord’s Day.”

Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,

Thus, the entire book of Revelation was given to the church on the 7th day Sabbath. Which means, among other things, that the Sabbath is an eschatological doctrine. Here the SDA’s are correct. Too bad they failed to embrace the correct doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, aka, the Lord’s Day.

New Covenant Theology

Tom said: The so-called New Covenant Theology movement is a relatively new system of theological interpretation that is decidedly anti-Sabbatarian. The founders come from the Reformed Baptist Community, which has rejected this view. Moreover, no church or denomination has ever embraced this radical and confused theology that only embraces 90% of the 10 Commandments. So beware.

One of the leaders of NCT is John Reisinger. He started out as an Armenian Dispensationalist, then he became a Calvinist, then he became a Covenant Theologian, only to leave Dispensationalism. Then he left Covenant Theology and came to embrace and promote the confusion of this so-called New Covenant Theology. One wonders where all this will end up?

http://www.grantedministries.org/produc … nger-.html

After Glacier View in 1980, a number of former SDA pastors, such as Richard Fredericks and Dale Ratzlaff, repudiated the 7th day, schoolmaster Sabbath in favor of NCT. Thus a trend has developed for those looking to escape the false and legalistic doctrines of Adventism.

http://claypeck.com/articles/is-sabbath … clay-peck/

http://loudcry.org/sda/archives/606

http://www.lifeassuranceministries.com/product1.html

http://www.lifeassuranceministries.com/page3.html

http://www.damascus.com/ImNewToDamascus.aspx

Do not misunderstand; NCT also repudiates Sunday well as the 7th day Sabbath. However, those who embrace this theology always seem to observe Sunday. Which of course makes no sense and underscores thy hypocrisy and confusion about this anti-Sabbatarian theology that they themselves do not practice. Those that truly embrace what NCT teaches, should not go to church on a regular basis on either the 7th or 1st day of the week. But NCT is so wrong and impractical, that its’ greatest point makes no sense, nor is any congregation disposed to remove the weekly Sabbath of the church, regardless if it is the 7th or 1st day.

NCT has many critics, and correctly so. It fails miserably to resolve the Sabbath debate, even though it is making gains with a number of independent churches, including the Sabbath obsessed SDA’s. Which only proves that the present understanding of the Sabbath, as well as the Gospel and the Two Covenants are very confused, wrong, and unsettled.

Today, not one church or denomination teaches the NC Sabbath correctly, including the SDA’s. NCT is part of the problem as it also fails to correctly define the Gospel Sabbath. This situation will only change when the correct, 7th day Gospel Sabbath emerges from within the Adventist Community.

See:

The Reformed Sabbath:
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

NCT Anti-Sabbatarian

The leaders of NCT should be given credit for correctly understanding that there are many errors and problems associated with the various doctrines of the Sabbath. Good for them to admit the problems and look for solutions.

However, they are very wrong to conclude that there is neither a 7th day Sabbath or a 1st day version for the church. Their view that only 90% of the Decalogue has been repeated in the NC, except the Sabbath, is reckless and absurd, having no basis in history or theology. NCT is hardly a solution because its’ main point is not true. All four Gospels contain Jesus NC teachings about the Sabbath.

So how can anyone claim that the doctrine of the Sabbath is missing from the NT?

See: 90% or 100%

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ent-NT.htm

Those that promote NCT are very wrong to claim that only 90% of the Decalogue is repeated in the NT. The reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath, is clearly featured and defined in all four Gospels. Jesus is the author of the NC Sabbath, and he clearly teaches such a doctrine for the church. A person would have to be blind to pretend Jesus does not teach his followers a reformed doctrine of the Sabbath.

In fact, some are upset with NCT because it as against the law and thus antinomian. Listen to Reisingers defense of this charge by Dr. Sproul.

An Open Letter to R.C. Sproul
http://soundofgrace.com/jgr/index074.htm

During his defense of NCT, Reisinger was forced to admit that the goal of NCT is not to remove the Moral Law, but the doctrine of the Sabbath from the practice of the church.

So NCT is not fully antinomian. It only objects to the Sabbath, either on Saturday or Sunday. Which means, by their own admission, that they are 10% against the Decalogue.

Listen to Reisinger correctly admit “the very most that I can be called is a 1/10 antinomian.”

Reisinger continues: “The heart of the issue with New Covenant Theology and myself concerning the Ten Commandments boils down to whether the Fourth commandment, the Sabbath, is an eternal, unchanging, moral law, or the ceremonial sign of the covenant God made with Israel at Sinai (Exod. 31:14-17). As I understand it, the Sabbath alone is your real point of difference with New Covenant Theology. That one commandment alone is our only point of disagreement.”

“We feel we have much biblical evidence for our view. Exodus 31:16 specifically states that to keep the Sabbath was to actually keep 'the covenant.' "The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant," and both verses 11 and 17 state that the Sabbath was the sign of the Mosaic covenant.”
“It is vital that we recognize that the Sabbath, like circumcision, the ceremonial sign of the Abrahamic covenant, was indeed the ceremonial covenant sign of the Mosaic covenant. To violate the ceremonial sign of a covenant was to disown the entire covenant. This is why both signs, circumcision and the Sabbath, even though ceremonial in nature, carried the death penalty for violation.”

“Within the context of marriage, the worst thing I could do would be to take off my wedding ring, throw it at my wife, and walk out. That one act would be a deliberate and total rejection of our entire covenant relationship. That is exactly what the man did who 'merely' picked up a few sticks on the Sabbath. He threw the wedding ring in God's face. That is what Moses was doing by not having his son circumcised. He was refusing to wear the wedding ring.”

“A particular day of the week cannot be intrinsically holy, in the sense of moral purity, any more than a spoon, an article of furniture, certain clothing, or a piece of land can be holy. The Most Holy Place ceased to be holy in any sense the moment the veil of the temple was rent from top to bottom. Everything that God in any way associates with worshipping him was always prefixed with the word holy.”

“However, in most cases, the connotation of the word 'holy' is "separated unto God" and not "morally pure." Holy days, including the seventh-day Sabbath, are in the same category as the Holy Place, holy garments, holy ceremonies, holy altars, holy furniture, etc. None of these things reflect the eternal, 'moral' character of God.”

An Open Letter to R.C. Sproul
http://soundofgrace.com/jgr/index074.htm

More links:

New Covenant Theology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Covenant_Theology

http://solochristo.com/theology/nct/Gar … tives.html

http://www.sbts.edu/documents/tschreine … Zaspel.pdf

http://www.biblelighthouse.com/covenants/nct.htm

http://www.scribd.com/doc/5988526/Intro … t-Theology

http://sharperiron.org/article/what-new … t-theology

http://www.sovereignpotter.com/New_Cove … ology.html

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/c … theol.html

http://evangelica.de/letters/letters-to … -theology/

http://millennium.fortunecity.com/linco … nct.html#2

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1192840733

http://ncbf.net/pdf/confession.pdf

http://www.disciplemaking.net/new-coven … y-articles

(Anti-NCT)

JOHN OWEN AND NEW COVENANT THEOLOGY
http://www.biblelighthouse.com/covenant … llos02.htm

http://www.reformedreader.org/rbb/bom/n … itique.htm

http://www.futureisraelministries.org/f … tology.pdf

http://paulspassingthoughts.wordpress.c … t-he-said/

http://www.proginosko.com/welty/adams.htm

Jesus was not a New Covenant Theologian!

http://www.biblelighthouse.com/covenant … nger01.htm
http://www.galaxie.com/article/12492

The Covenants
http://www.kindredminds.org/new_covenant_theology.htm

NCT- Anti-SDA
http://sabbatismos.com/
http://sabbatismos.com/the-sabbath/

Adventist Reform:

The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … d=228&p=10

SDA’s and the New Covenant
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=830

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=12

NCT and the Sabbath Question
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=466

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

Tom Norris' Reformed Sabbath - Unbiblical
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=787

I hope that this information warns all to beware of NCT. Those who developed this theory need to keep studying the issues until they arrive at the correct solution. Only the active, 7th day Sabbath, as reformed by Christ, is correct doctrine for the church. Let all understand and embrace the true Gospel Sabbath.

Tom Norris for All Experts.com and Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 06-16-11 1:30 pm

Long as usual and not answering the question which I have asked, Where did you get a "Reformed Sabbath".

Tom said:

Did Jesus ever claim to be our Sabbath rest? No. In fact, Jesus NC Sabbath teaching did not focus on rest at all, but on Gospel action, good works, and lots of activity.

Tom look at this even in the OT, which I think you said never point to Christ fulfilling the Sabbath. He is the only one that can forgive sin (REST).

Jeremiah 31: 1 “At that time,” declares the LORD, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they will be my people.”
2 This is what the LORD says:
“The people who survive the sword
will find favor in the wilderness;
I will come to give rest to Israel.”

Also, in the NT

Matthew 11:28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

"Think for yourself not by yourself." - Ralph Larson

Last edited by bob_2 (06-16-11 1:35 pm)

bob_2 · 06-16-11 1:48 pm

Tom said:

Within the context of marriage, the worst thing I could do would be to take off my wedding ring, throw it at my wife, and walk out. That one act would be a deliberate and total rejection of our entire covenant relationship. That is exactly what the man did who 'merely' picked up a few sticks on the Sabbath. He threw the wedding ring in God's face. That is what Moses was doing by not having his son circumcised. He was refusing to wear the wedding ring.”

Tom, we don't live in a desert like the Israelites. To find wood for a fire when manna was provided was unnecessary. God wanted them to rest, which most of them needed after Egypt where they had been oppressed and over worked. You are looking at rules rather than principles. My mom, bless her soul, she was also into the rules as you are forgeting that the Sabbath is a gift, but not one that allows you warm things up but not cook from a raw state to a cooked state. If that is Reformed, I'll eat my hat.

Look at this EGW on Cooking on the Sabbath:

http://www.ellenwhitedefend.com/subject … abbath.htm

tom_norris · 06-16-11 1:51 pm

Bob2, a NCT zealot said: Long as usual and not answering the question, which I have asked, Where did you get a "Reformed Sabbath?"

Tom said: The Reformed, 7th day Sabbath is taught by Christ in all four Gospels. This is where everyone should go to understand the Gospel Sabbath.

Bob2 said: Tom, look at this, even in the OT, which I think you said never point to Christ fulfilling the Sabbath. He is the only one that can forgive sin (REST).

Tom said: The Sabbath is primarily a memorial to creation, which is a past event. Thus the Sabbath will always be about the Creation Story. This meaning will never change or be abolished.

Those that ignore this point so that they can pretend the Sabbath has no role to play in the church, are only fooling themselves. Just as there was an OC Sabbath, so too is there a NC version, which Jesus clearly teaches in all four Gospels. Ignore and repudiate his Gospel Sabbath at your own Eternal risk.

bob_2 · 06-16-11 1:55 pm

Tom, how can you possibly read the following and not get it:

Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Christ is our True Rest that can forgive sin. The Old Covenant Sabbath was a Sabbath of inactivity, at least initially.

bob_2 · 06-16-11 2:00 pm

Again, you said:

Bob2, a NCT zealot said: Long as usual and not answering the question, which I have asked, Where did you get a "Reformed Sabbath?"

"Think for yourself, not by yourself" - Ralph Larson

I have shown you scholars that take a calm approach to this issue. I would not be able to call them zealots. On the other hand you are only one I have ever heard say that Jesus created a Reformed Sabbath, and you are "thinking by yourself " with this topic.

tom_norris · 06-18-11 11:31 am

Bob2 said: Tom, we don't live in a desert like the Israelites. To find wood for a fire when manna was provided was unnecessary. God wanted them to rest, which most of them needed after Egypt where they had been oppressed and over worked.

Tom said: Those who follow Christ are NC Christians, not OC ones. They are not to pretend that they live in, or under, the OC. While the OC has a “preparation day” to prepare for the Sabbath, the Gospel Sabbath has NO such day, because there is NO need; it is no longer a sin to work on the NC Sabbath, aka the Lord’s Day.

Mark 15:42 When evening had already come, because it was the preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath,

Luke 23:54 It was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.

Most Christians can only comprehend the OC Sabbath. This is especially true for the SDA’s. They do not understand that there is a very different, NC doctrine of the Sabbath in the NT. There is no weekly preparation day for the NC Sabbath. Neither is there any prohibition against working.

Bob2 said: You are looking at rules rather than principles.

Tom said: I am looking at the NC Sabbath teaching of Jesus in all four Gospels. You are still obsessed with the OC Sabbath. You still can’t seem to distinguish between the two.

Jesus is the head theologian of the church, and he alone defines the NC Sabbath. Those that claim to follow Jesus, must understand and embrace his reformed doctrine of the Sabbath, as well as the rest of his Gospel teaching. They are not free to make up their doctrine or pretend that only 90% of the Moral Law is included in the Law of Christ.

This is why NCT is so wrong. It is based on many false assumptions that are easily exposed. While the NCT crowd is very correct to understand that every denomination is wrong about the Sabbath, either the 7th day or 1st day brand, their attempted solution falls flat. They have failed to solve the Sabbath debate. Period. So let’s stop pretending shall we?

Bob2 said: My mom, bless her soul; she was also into the rules as you are forgetting that the Sabbath is a gift, but not one that allows you warm things up but not cook from a raw state to a cooked state. If that is Reformed, I'll eat my hat.

Tom said: Ha! My SDA mother is like your SDA mother. My wonderful mom embraces all manner of rules and regulations about the Sabbath. She is still to this day very careful to “guard the edges of the Sabbath.” No eating at restaurants, no TV, no purchasing of anything, even gas for the car on Sabbath. All she knows is the OC Sabbath, and the SDA’s taught her well. Too bad their view of the Sabbath is as wrong as their view of the Gospel.

Like all SDA’s of her generation, they only know the OC “schoolmaster” Sabbath. This is the only Sabbath that the SDA’s know and promote. Law. Law. Law. She was never taught the Gospel, nor did she ever suspect that another, very different doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath would emerge. One where all these silly, OC rules are moot.

Bob2 said: Look at this EGW on Cooking on the Sabbath:
http://www.ellenwhitedefend.com/subject … abbath.htm

Tom said: Ellen White taught the OC Sabbath. I have never said otherwise. In this she was wrong. While she would have endorsed the NC Sabbath, had it emerged after 1888, the leaders refused to repent of their schoolmaster Sabbath, even as they repudiated the Gospel and exiled both Ellen White and Waggoner.

Thus no further Sabbath development was possible for the SDA’s until Glacier View. And that opportunity was so bungled by the Takoma Park leaders that to this day they have no idea how to move forward to the 4th Angels Message and the new doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath, nor do they care. They show no inclination to repent and correct their many errors and false doctrines.

Let all understand that the official SDA view of the Sabbath is wrong. They do have the correct day, but the wrong doctrine. This is because they do not know the Gospel or their own history. It is time for the SDA’s to wake up and complete Sabbath Reform. They need to stop pretending they have everything correct, because this is an impossible assumption.

While Ellen White made great progress at understanding the Gospel and the Sabbath, the SDA’s never completed their goal of Sabbath Reform. All they know is the OC Sabbath of the Jews, complete with many rules and regulations. Pity.

Ellen White promoted the OC Sabbath in the church. This is all she knew and what all SDA’s did during this time period, even as the Sunday keeping churches did the same thing, just on a different day. Which is why they promoted Sunday Blue Laws.

The Sunday keeping churches were trying to keep the Christian Sabbath holy and free from work, and the SDA’s were doing the same thing on a different day. Such a view of the Sabbath, regardless of the day, is wrong.

Listen to Ellen White describe the OC Sabbath and then chastise the SDA’s for being careless about its observance. While this is wrong, they did not know any better. At least not before 1888.

“The Lord gave the children of Israel explicit instructions prohibiting unnecessary labor upon the Sabbath. "Tomorrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the Lord. Bake that which ye will bake today, and seethe that which ye will seethe."

“Carelessness in the observance of the Sabbath has crept in among us as a people. Many have sought to please themselves rather than to honor God. If we would enjoy the blessing of the Lord, the Sabbath-day must be kept holy.”

“All cooking should be done on Friday. On the camp-ground, when the mornings are cool, hot water or hot gruel should be provided. In winter, at our homes, the food previously cooked should be warmed before it is eaten. In warm weather this is unnecessary. Divine mercy has directed that the sick and suffering should be cared for; the labor required to do this is a work of necessity, and no violation of the Sabbath. -- Signs of the Times, May 25, 1882.

On Friday let the preparation for the Sabbath be completed. See that all the clothing is in readiness, and that all the cooking is done. Let the boots be blacked, and the baths be taken. It is possible to do this. If you make it a rule, you can do it.

The Sabbath is not to be given to the repairing of garments, to the cooking of food, to pleasure seeking, or to any other worldly employment. Before the setting of the sun, let all secular work be laid aside, and all secular papers be put out of sight. Parents, explain your work and its purpose to your children, and let them share in your preparation to keep the Sabbath according to the commandment -- Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 355, 356 (1901).

Today, we should all know better. There is no such doctrine as the OC Sabbath in the NC! Many people have come to understand this point. Which is why so many get angry with the legalistic SDA’s. However, NCT is not a correct solution to the universal error about the Sabbath.

Here is the answer: there is a 7th day Gospel Sabbath for the church. Good for the SDA’s to push for the correct day. Now they need to promote the correct NC Sabbath doctrine.

Let all SDA’s wake up and move forward to the Reformed Gospel Sabbath of Christ. This is the Sabbath that will be featured under the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18.

Bob2 said: Tom, how can you possibly read Eph 2:14 and not get it:

Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Tom said: This passage cannot be used to remove or blunt Jesus (reformed) Sabbath teaching. In fact, the church has never used this passage to attack the Sunday Sabbath, so why are you trying to invent new anti-Sabbatarian doctrine?

Rather, Paul supports the NC Sabbath, which removes the power of the law regarding the 4th Commandment for all that embrace the Gospel. The “new man” has a “new Sabbath,” even as the OC Sabbath, with its’ many rules against work, has been ABOLISHED.

Bob2 said: Christ is our True Rest that can forgive sin.

Tom said: Agreed. So what is your point as it relates to the Sabbath?

This line of reasoning will not work. Why? Because Jesus’ reformed Sabbath does NOT feature rest. That was the OC Sabbath.

The NC Sabbath is a working, active doctrine that is nothing like the OC Sabbath of the Jews or the lazy SDA’s who prefer to sleep all afternoon, after church and a big meal. Then they wait for the sun to go down so they can return to normal life.

Forget this obsession with the word rest. That is an OC point, not a NC one. Rest does not fit with the doctrine of the NC Sabbath. Thus the Gospel Sabbath calls for the church to worship God and praise his Son, as well as to be active, full of good works on this 7th day.

Bob2 said: The Old Covenant Sabbath was a Sabbath of inactivity, at least initially.

Tom said: Correct! Unless you were a Priest. They had different Sabbath rules, which Jesus used to create the NC Sabbath for the church.

The OC Sabbath featured no work of any kind, not even lighting fires or cooking. Not even the slaves were allowed to do work. But the NC Sabbath is the opposite; all manner of work is permitted and it is no longer a sin to be active on the Gospel Sabbath. This is an irrefutable and surprising point.

This is why there is no OC Sabbath in the NT. But the NC Sabbath can be found in many places. But few know what to look for. Finding the OC Sabbath missing, they try to force Sunday into the role of being the Gospel Sabbath, but this is a great error.

Many SDA’s are aghast because the church fathers rejected the 7th day Sabbath and embraced Sunday as the NC Sabbath for the church. However, this error is not as wrong as it seems.

These early, post apostolic theologians were very correct to understand that the OC Sabbath of the Jews could not possibly be the correct Gospel Sabbath for the church. They were also correct to understand that Christ clearly teaches a weekly Sabbath for the church. So what were they to do?

They selected the Sunday Sabbath, and based it on the day of the resurrection. While this solution worked to separate the church from Judaism, which they knew to be wrong and outdated, it was still an error because not only was Sunday the wrong day, so too were the rules about no work on this new Gospel Sabbath. Thus the early church found itself embracing the OC Sabbath on Sunday, instead of the 7th day.

The solution is the 7th day Gospel Sabbath. This NC version of the Sabbath has yet to be understood by any denomination, much less the legalistic and confused SDA’s. At some point, the Laodicean church will wake up and understand correct Gospel doctrine. Then many will repent, embracing the Gospel Sabbath correctly.

Bob2 said: I have shown you scholars that take a calm approach to this issue. I would not be able to call them zealots. On the other hand you are only one I have ever heard say that Jesus created a Reformed Sabbath, and you are "thinking by yourself" with this topic.

Tom said: First off, understand that this anti-Sabbatarian theology, called NCT, is brand new. There has never been such a doctrine in the history of the church. While there have been anti-Sabbatarians, they were only attacking the 7th day in order to defend and protect the Sunday Sabbath, aka, the Lord’s day.

So there has never been such a church doctrine that attacked both the 7th and 1st days as the Sabbath. NCT was invented in the 20th century and heavily promoted by Reisinger for decades. Those that have embraced it have become his disciples, thinking they have found some deeper insight into the law and the Gospel. They are very foolish and wrong.

Secondly, it is the Gospels, written by four of the apostles that record Jesus’ Reformed Gospel Sabbath. Read the NT for yourself and confirm this fact. So I am not thinking alone on this point as you claim. Rather, I am embracing the teaching of Christ and his apostles about the NC Sabbath, and so too should all those who claim to follow Christ.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris, for the 7th day Gospel Sabbath

bob_2 · 06-18-11 11:28 pm

Tom, long as usual but short on results:

Think for your self not by yourself.

What other scholars agree with your view? You can not show a command by Jesus to keep the Sabbath. His Pray that your flight not be on the Sabbath, is a caution to those maintaining the OC Sabbath, that they will run into obsticals that will get them killed Col 2: 16,17, and 2 Cor 3, and

Eph 2: 11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Who taught you this stuff? Christ kept the Sabbath the way He intended Old Covenant people to keep it, of which He was one until His death and the New Covenant statrted.

Last edited by bob_2 (06-19-11 12:41 am)

tom_norris · 06-22-11 2:22 pm

Bob2 said: Tom, long as usual but short on results:

Tom said: Bob, long or short, you are not being responsive to the points made. Nor have you posted anything that would give credibility to this anti-Sabbatarian confusion called NCT.

Bob2 said: What other scholars agree with your view?

Tom said: I have told you many times that Dr. Ford embraces the 7th day Gospel, Gospel Sabbath. In fact, when Richard Fredericks embraced NCT and left the SDA’s, Dr. Ford disassociated himself with Fredericks.

Dr. Ford knew that both Sunday keeping and NCT was great error, even as he knew that OC SDA Sabbath keeping was also wrong. Had Fredericks listened to Dr. Ford, he could have gone on to locate and promote the Gospel Sabbath, instead of misleading his followers into myths and absurd doctrines.

Tom Norris paid attention to Dr. Ford and the details of church history. This is why I have been able to go forward to discover, articulate, and defend the final and correct doctrine of the Sabbath as part of Adventist Reform. (My AToday Interview with Dr. Ford took place right after he separated from Fredericks.)

Moreover, Dr. Ford is the father of modern Adventist Reform. He is the most notable scholar to date who defends the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. But others will follow, because the facts are what they. At some point, Gospel truth always finds a way to survive.

I proudly stand with Dr. Ford, repudiating the legions of those confused apologists and incompetent scholars that are so full of double talk, myth, and false doctrine.

See:

Hank Hanegraaff & the Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … 164#p10164

NCT; The Sabbath fulfilled in Christ
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … christ.htm

NCT is built on false assumptions, sloppy history, and dishonest hermeneutics. Which is why no one can defend it with a straight face, or even follow it.

In fact, the church has never embraced such a doctrine, nor will it ever do so. It is too impractical to be implemented, even as it is obvious that it rests upon anti-Sabbatarian myth and reckless error.

Show me a church that does not meet regularly on Sunday or Saturday?

There are no such churches, nor has there ever been. Not even those who embrace NCT, and proclaim there is no Sabbath for the church. They too meet every Sunday, even though their theology says there is no such doctrine.

NCT is worthless, wrong, and hypercritical. Anyone that embraces this double-talk is not a serious scholar or Christian. They are only fooling themselves by embracing such novel nonsense.

Let all run from NCT…

Bob2 said: You cannot show a command by Jesus to keep the Sabbath.

Tom said: This is not true. We are only “friends” of Jesus if we follow his teachings, which are the same as commands. He commands all to follow him, even as he “commands” all to love one another. However, such a “command” is more like an invitation.

John 15:17 “This I command you, that you love one another.

Matt. 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

Jesus can only be our savior and friend if we follow his teachings and commands. This includes his Reformed, NC Sabbath, which he taught with such passion and personal risk.

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 7:1 After these things Jesus was walking in Galilee, for He was unwilling to walk in Judea because the Jews were seeking to kill Him.

John 7:19 “Did not Moses give you the Law, and yet none of you carries out the Law? Why do you seek to kill Me?”

John 7:20 The crowd answered, “You have a demon! Who seeks to kill You?”

John 7:25 So some of the people of Jerusalem were saying, “Is this not the man whom they are seeking to kill?

John 8:37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.

John 8:40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

We can only please God by carefully following Jesus teaching in all things; “keeping his words.” Anyone that ignores or rejects his Sabbath teaching is NOT FOLLOWING Christ or God’s will. They are not following the Word.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

John 15:14 “You are My friends if you do what I command you.

John 15:15 “No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.

Again, this passage is referencing to the new, reformed Sabbath doctrine. Those who understand the Gospels correctly,- will know what Jesus is saying about the Reformed Sabbath. They will comprehend this long lost Gospel doctrine that has been hidden for centuries.

In the Gospels, Jesus repeatedly promotes and defends his reformed Sabbath, even as he teaches that his followers will also understand and follow his controversial and counter-intuitive teaching on this point.

In addition, the NT teaches that we are to “honor the Son” by following his controversial Sabbath teachings. Those who deny the Sabbath teachings of Christ “do not honor the Son…nor the Father.” They will not pass the Judgment. (Let all beware).

John 5:22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,

John 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

To “believe” in Christ, and to “hear” his words, means to embrace his Gospel Sabbath, as well as the rest of his teaching. No amount of double talk will change this theological fact.

The closer one examines the NT, the more prominent and detailed the Sabbath debates appear in the Gospels. Even Jesus’ teaching about the Good Sheppard, is a direct reference to his reformed Sabbath.

John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

So there is no call to follow the NC Sabbath, apart from Jesus Gospel teaching. Rather, the invitation is to embrace the Gospel and follow all that Christ teaches, including his active and reformed Gospel Sabbath that God instructed him to teach.

The Gospel Sabbath is part of the Gospel Story and part of the teachings and “law” of Christ. There is no way to remove it from the NT or pretend it is not there. Or pretend it does not matter. Nor is it to be confused with the OC Sabbath of the Jews and the SDA’s. This is the wrong Sabbath.

Jesus makes it clear that Eternal Life is for those that “hear his voice” and “follow him.” Do not underestimate the correct Sabbath doctrine of Christ.

Debate over this doctrine caused great “division” within 1st century Judaism, and led to the death of Christ for Sabbath breaking. And so it will once again divide the church and lead to Gospel persecution.

John 7:43 So a division occurred in the crowd because of Him.

Under the 4th Angels Message, this new view of the Sabbath will separate and divide those who are honestly trying to follow the Gospel from the many who are just pretending.

Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

Rev. 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

Those that followed Jesus risked their lives to do so. To follow Christ meant to rebel against those in religious authority, refusing to pay tithe or obey the leaders who had rejected the Gospel.

The first (Jewish) Christians had to embrace this new and very different Sabbath, and most Jews could not do it; but the Gentiles had little problem. Their culture was not based on Jewish law, so the Gospel Sabbath presented no great burden like the OC Sabbath.

The Jews could not give up their law based, OC doctrines, including their traditional view of the Sabbath, which is why they rejected the NC teachings of Christ. To understand the Sabbath debates is to under the Gospel. It is time for people to start reading the NT directly, instead of relying on so much hearsay from the incompetent talking suits.

John 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.

John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.

The Jews were “astonished” and confused at Jesus’ Sabbath teaching. They were also stunned to hear his claim that he was speaking for God on this point. In fact, Jesus taught that if anyone wanted to follow God, they must also embrace this new doctrine of the Sabbath. Thus Jesus drew a line in the sand that made it clear that his new view of the Sabbath was not optional for those the follow him.

It was a shocking situation, one that will be repeated at the end of time.

John 7:15 The Jews then were astonished, saying, “How has this man become learned, having never been educated?”

John 7:16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.

John 7:17 “If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

Over and over in all four Gospels, the Sabbath debates rage on. They are impossible to miss, even as Jesus claims his new Sabbath doctrine is direct from God. Such teaching led to his death.

With so much Sabbath discussion and reform in the Gospels, how can anyone claim that the NT ignores the doctrine of the Sabbath, or that Jesus did not leave plenty of instruction for the church about this point?

Rather then claim there is no Sabbath for the church, why don’t they read the Gospels and see what Jesus has to say about such a doctrine? Does Jesus say there is no Sabbath for the church? Or that it is now on Sunday?

Jesus didn’t change the day to Sunday or promote any rules against working on the Sabbath. He freed the people from the demands of the Sabbath law, and treated all that followed him as Priests of God, guiltless for working on the 7th day. Thus the new weekly Sabbath for the church fit the Gospel perfectly.

John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

John 5:20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing;

The NC Gospel Sabbath originates from the mind of God. We can only understand this doctrine through the teachings of Christ, God’s Son and apostle. To deny the active, reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ is to deny the Gospel and repudiate the Word, as well as the Father, Son, and Spirit. Let all Beware.

Bob2 said: His Pray that your flight not be on the Sabbath, is a caution to those maintaining the OC Sabbath, that they will run into obstacles that will get them killed Col 2: 16,17, and 2 Cor 3,

Tom said: Your view is impossible. Why? Because, among other things, Jesus did not teach the OC Sabbath. In fact, he taught such a radical and different Sabbath that he was killed for it.

Jesus teaches the NC Sabbath in the Gospels, not the “schoolmaster” Sabbath of Moses.

Moreover, Jesus teaches that the NC Sabbath will be an active doctrine for his followers at the end of the world, when the Tribulation strikes. Thus disproving this myth that the Sabbath has been abolished. (While the OC Sabbath has been abolished, the NC Sabbath has not.)

Bob2 said: Who taught you this stuff?

Tom said: I have told you many times. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. They all have written a lot about how Jesus and God view the NC Sabbath. I suggest that you study these early church theologians and apostles for yourself. They quote Jesus often as he transitions the OC Sabbath into a NC doctrine that reflects his paradigm changing Gospel views.

Do not simply believe what people say or write about the Sabbath in the NT, look and study for yourself. Read the many passages where Jesus promotes a very different and upsetting view of the Sabbath and try to understand it within the historical context of the OC. Then you will have a better chance to discover the facts and understand the active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath.

Bob2 said: Christ kept the Sabbath the way He intended Old Covenant people to keep it, of which He was one until His death and the New Covenant started.

Tom said: First off, Christ is a NC figure, not an OC one as you often claim. Which is why his teachings are only found in the NT.

You need to repent of this strange and absurd view and stop trying to change history to fit your false doctrines. Jesus is the greatest of all NC figures. Deny this point and you will never understand the Gospel.

Second, Christ repudiated the OC Sabbath and refused to follow it, teaching others to follow his reforming and controversial example instead. This is why he caused such a commotion wherever he went, and why the Jews decided to silence and kill him.

So Christ did not promote or even teach the OC Sabbath, and it is great error to assume otherwise, as the SDA’s have done. Rather, he taught a NC version of the Sabbath, which is very different and counter-intuitive from the OC law of the 4th Commandment.

Only those that pay attention to the Good Sheppard will be able to understand the Gospel correctly and thus embrace the correct version of the Sabbath. There is only one Gospel and one NC Sabbath, and only a few will understand.

NCT is reckless nonsense and trite double-talk, and so too are all the other attempts to articulate the Sabbath doctrine by the wretched and blind Laodiceans, including the SDA’s or Sunday keepers. Those who teach such worthless drivel should be ashamed of themselves and repent.

The true Pre Advent Judgment of the last church is the Laodicean Message. Here Jesus calls on all Christians living at the end of time to repent of their many false views, including the most visible and telling of errors, the Sabbath.

It is time for the church to wake up and understand the Gospel correctly, which includes the NC, Reformed Sabbath of Christ.

This is what the SDA’s were supposed to be doing all these years, but they too, are blind to the Gospel, unable to move forward and complete their eschatological mission. Pity.

Tom Norris, for the NC Sabbath

bob_2 · 06-23-11 9:24 pm

Tom is this "group" part of "the Reformed Sabbath" that you keep acting like it is bigger than you and Desmond Ford????

http://www.facebook.com/pages/ADVENTIST … 4979162052

tom_norris · 06-23-11 10:49 pm

No. No. No. The SDA Reform Movement is a legalistic offshoot of the SDA's. They are obsessed with the IJ, Tithe, and the OC Sabbath. They too need to repent and embrace genuine Adventist Reform.

This group would be very opposed to the Gospel version of Adventist Reform, including the NC Sabbath, even as they would repudiate NCT and any Sunday keeping.

cadge · 06-23-11 11:08 pm

Bob_2,

Yeah, this is different than Ford and Norris' reform movement.

I've been reading over some stuff that was handed to me a few months ago by a fellow that I do a jail ministry with. In their teachings they actually say that the lunar calender supports the time of the anti-typical day of atonement of 1844 and the commencement of the investigative judgment.

http://www.4angelspublications.com/

Last edited by cadge (06-23-11 11:09 pm)

cadge · 06-24-11 6:12 pm

Then again, if we listen to this guy, the lunar sabbath is bunk.

Lunar Sabbath / Shabbat Mathematically Proven False

http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/lunar-sabbath.htm

But then it brings into question the reckoning of 1844 and the anti-typical day of atonement by Millerites by lunar figuring, doesn't it?

Cadge

tom_norris · 06-25-11 1:46 pm

Bob, don’t misunderstand, there is a good reason why some scholars came up with NCT. I do not deny this fact.

Those that developed NCT in the late 20th century understood that no denomination, Protestant or Catholic, taught correct Sabbath doctrine. They understood that Sunday was not correct, and neither was the OC 7th day Sabbath of the SDB’s and SDA’s.

I agree, and so too does Dr. Ford.

Good for someone to address this huge and embarrassing problem. Good for them to try and develop a system of theology that would correct this universal conundrum.

However, it is time to admit that their proposed solution to the Sabbath debate is impossible and wrong. While their underlying premise was correct, their solution was not.

It was a good attempt, so let’s give them some accolades for trying. They actually stepped on the toes of all the Sunday keepers, as well as the few that embrace the 7th day as the Lord’s Day. So their theology was not targeted against SDA’s, which is so common with the critics, like Canright.

Regardless, We Have A Winner! The solution has been found. The debate is over.

The solution is the NC, active, 7th day Sabbath, as taught by Christ in the NT.

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

Here is the answer to all the debate that has been raging for centuries about the Sabbath. It is finished.

Here is also the answer for the confused, divided, and self-destructing SDA’s.

They exist to solve the Sabbath debate and to correctly integrate this doctrine into the final events. Now they must press on with their noble mission and come to their senses, repenting of their “schoolmaster” Sabbath, the IJ, Tithe, and many other OC doctrines.

The SDA’s must now embrace the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath, moving forward within the Adventist Apocalyptic to develop the last and final Advent Message.

This new doctrine completes the SDA quest for Sabbath Reform, even as this reformed view becomes part of the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18.

Let all understand the significance of this paradigm changing doctrine that should have, long ago- been understood by SDA’s.

The 7th day Gospel Sabbath is a remarkable and astonishing doctrine that condemns all Laodiceans and underscores how wrong they are about the teachings of Jesus.

The GS, not NCT, is the answer. Let all rejoice…

Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath

bob_2 · 06-25-11 3:36 pm

Tom, Des Ford does not think too deeply about the New Covenant with this remark:

The word "new" in relationship to the covenant actually means "renewed," as with the "new" earth and the "new" heart. According to Hebrews 8:8-12, the essence of the law proclaimed at the Exodus is now written in the heart. 2 Corinthians 3 is certainly not suggesting that idolatry, blasphemy, disobedience to parents, murder, adultery, theft, lying, and covetousness as well as Sabbath-breaking have been sanctified by the cross. No, it is merely saying that all law (even New Testament law) becomes the ministration of death if people teach it without the message of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit.

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/sabbath/dford-sabbath.htm

See Hebrews 8:13.

Christ's Law referred to by Paul in 1 Cor 9:21, is more expansive and like the New Earth far exceed the present or Old Earth, the New Covenant has "better promises" than the OLD.

tom_norris · 06-26-11 4:26 pm

Bob, I just read this broad, quick defense of the 7th day Sabbath by Dr. Ford that you referenced. He is correct to defend the 7th day, as well as to simplify all this confusion about the Two Covenants.

Listen to Dr. Ford and learn:

“Sinai was a replay of the Abrahamic covenant. See Psalm 105:9-11 which is quite clear on this matter.”
“The word "new" in relationship to the covenant actually means, "renewed," as with the "new" earth and the "new" heart. According to Hebrews 8:8-12, the essence of the law proclaimed at the Exodus is now written in the heart.”

“2 Corinthians 3 is certainly not suggesting that idolatry, blasphemy, disobedience to parents, murder, adultery, theft, lying, and covetousness as well as Sabbath-breaking have been sanctified by the cross.”

“No, it is merely saying that all law (even New Testament law) becomes the ministration of death if people teach it without the message of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit.”

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/sabbath/dford-sabbath.htm

While you may think this quick view of the Covenants is not deep or complex enough, don’t be so quick to judge. Truth can be both profound and simple at the same time.

Moreover, you have offered no rebuttal, only your misguided complaints that missed the entire point.

Bob2 said: Des Ford does not think too deeply about the New Covenant with this remark:

Tom said: Bob, I think you are the first person I ever heard make such a slander against Dr. Ford. Are you sure this is how you want to defend NCT? Why not stick to the issues and try to prove him wrong?

Dr. Ford is a world-class theologian, even a “deep” one. In fact, he was so “deep,” and his peers so shallow, that they could not understand his Glacier View tome. It was way over their heads, even as no one today dares answer his AToday Interview.

This short article was not a treatise on the Covenants, so why pretend it was? Answer: So you can find fault with Dr. Ford.

You will not win any friends for NCT with such dishonest and unchristian tactics. If you can’t address and refute the pro-Sabbatarian points made, than it would be better to say nothing.

NCT is a joke. It is easily refuted.

Furthermore, Dr. Ford is very correct to point out that Jesus worked very hard to articulate and defend the Gospel Sabbath. Such a fact easily overthrows NCT, even as it also renders the Sunday Sabbath impossible and wrong.

Listen to Dr. Ford:

“We have no record of any other institution that Christ labored so hard to defend and perpetuate as the seventh-day Sabbath of the fourth commandment. How could he have done more?”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All four Gospel’s are full of Jesus reformed Sabbath teaching. Such an obvious fact cannot be ignored or denied. So why has NCT made such a colossal error?

NCT is based on the absurd and outrageous assumption that Jesus did not teach a NC Sabbath for the church. But yet the Gospels clearly contain the very teaching they deny? So why pretend?

NCT has fallen flat for all to see. It is horrible theology, worthless and false for all to see.

New Sabbath Doctrine for 21st Century

Today, few in the church are thinking about new doctrine. With so many old traditions to defend and debate, who is even looking for more truth? Who even cares?

But this is what is taking place within the Adventist Community. As error, like the IJ, becomes intolerable, many are forced to seek new ways to understand the Word and to escape the gross legalism and double-talk of the SDA church.

Thus many embraced NCT, thinking it was the solution. But it is not. At least they tried to move on, and for that all should be praised. However, the quest for truth is not over. It must continue until the Sabbath problem is resolved.

Today, there is no reason for anyone to embrace NCT. Why? Because the true doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath has emerged for all to see. The 7th day Gospel Sabbath, which was invented in the 1st century and lost in the 2nd, is new, correct, church doctrine, for the 21st century Laodicean church.

Here is the completion of SDA Sabbath Reform. Here is the Sabbath doctrine that anchors the 4th Angels Message, completes the Protestant Reformation, and condemns the church. Here is the correct Gospel Sabbath.

Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath

hfsturges · 06-26-11 10:05 pm

Tom,

I hate to say it, but Dr. Ford is correct in this statement. And to be correct is to be as deep as deep can be.

Desmond Ford wrote:

“Sinai was a replay of the Abrahamic covenant. See Psalm 105:9-11 which is quite clear on this matter.”
“The word "new" in relationship to the covenant actually means, "renewed," as with the "new" earth and the "new" heart. According to Hebrews 8:8-12, the essence of the law proclaimed at the Exodus is now written in the heart.”

Thanks for the reference. It is very clear in stating the covenant under which Israel lived. And I believe the covenant for the Christian church.

Bible wrote:

8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
11 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance: Psalm 105:8-11 (KJV)
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29 (KJV)

bob_2 · 06-27-11 12:35 am

tom_norris wrote:

Bob, I just read this broad, quick defense of the 7th day Sabbath by Dr. Ford that you referenced. He is correct to defend the 7th day, as well as to simplify all this confusion about the Two Covenants.
Listen to Dr. Ford and learn:
“Sinai was a replay of the Abrahamic covenant. See Psalm 105:9-11 which is quite clear on this matter.”
“The word "new" in relationship to the covenant actually means, "renewed," as with the "new" earth and the "new" heart. According to Hebrews 8:8-12, the essence of the law proclaimed at the Exodus is now written in the heart.”
“2 Corinthians 3 is certainly not suggesting that idolatry, blasphemy, disobedience to parents, murder, adultery, theft, lying, and covetousness as well as Sabbath-breaking have been sanctified by the cross.”
“No, it is merely saying that all law (even New Testament law) becomes the ministration of death if people teach it without the message of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit.”
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/sabbath/dford-sabbath.htm
While you may think this quick view of the Covenants is not deep or complex enough, don’t be so quick to judge. Truth can be both profound and simple at the same time.
Moreover, you have offered no rebuttal, only your misguided complaints that missed the entire point.
Tom, the New Covenant is not a renewal of the old nor is it the same commandments. They are expansive and more detailed for more detailed situations, based on the Promise given to Abraham that allows other than Jews to be part of it. As to your tone or mine, that is not the issue so I won't address it, but to only say that Bill Loveless who was at Glacierview, claims that Des did not address things in a good tone. The facts are what matter not the tone.
Bob2 said: Des Ford does not think too deeply about the New Covenant with this remark:
Tom said: Bob, I think you are the first person I ever heard make such a slander against Dr. Ford. Are you sure this is how you want to defend NCT? Why not stick to the issues and try to prove him wrong?
Tom, no slander, my opinion, which I still feel about his comment. Sorry you feel the way you do. You need to stick to the facts instead of insults. So what different about your approach........?
Dr. Ford is a world-class theologian, even a “deep” one. In fact, he was so “deep,” and his peers so shallow, that they could not understand his Glacier View tome. It was way over their heads, even as no one today dares answer his AToday Interview.
This short article was not a treatise on the Covenants, so why pretend it was? Answer: So you can find fault with Dr. Ford.
Be careful that you do not find yourself liabilous. If Ford puts something forth then he, you and Hubb can expect a response, right? This is mine.
You will not win any friends for NCT with such dishonest and unchristian tactics. If you can’t address and refute the pro-Sabbatarian points made, than it would be better to say nothing.
The NCT is what is and still evolving . I do not feel any dishonest or unchristian tactics have been put forth by me. However, if this was the point of the discussion, I certainly have long epistles as examples of yours that would demonstrate your tone over and over, berating the church.
NCT is a joke. It is easily refuted.
Tom, why is this tone of yours not unchristian. You have all the space here to name the scholars that support your Reformed Gospel Sabbath. Do it. Don't just declare it so!!
Furthermore, Dr. Ford is very correct to point out that Jesus worked very hard to articulate and defend the Gospel Sabbath. Such a fact easily overthrows NCT, even as it also renders the Sunday Sabbath impossible and wrong.
Listen to Dr. Ford:
“We have no record of any other institution that Christ labored so hard to defend and perpetuate as the seventh-day Sabbath of the fourth commandment. How could he have done more?”
Christ has declared Himself to be our rest as does Paul, and as something more important than the temple Matt 12:6. Christ has never commanded anyone to keep the Sabbath in the NT, but counters and says, My Father and I are always at our work. John 5: 16-18
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All four Gospel’s are full of Jesus reformed Sabbath teaching. Such an obvious fact cannot be ignored or denied. So why has NCT made such a colossal error?
NCT is based on the absurd and outrageous assumption that Jesus did not teach a NC Sabbath for the church. But yet the Gospels clearly contain the very teaching they deny? So why pretend?
NCT has fallen flat for all to see. It is horrible theology, worthless and false for all to see.
New Sabbath Doctrine for 21st Century
Today, few in the church are thinking about new doctrine. With so many old traditions to defend and debate, who is even looking for more truth? Who even cares?
But this is what is taking place within the Adventist Community. As error, like the IJ, becomes intolerable, many are forced to seek new ways to understand the Word and to escape the gross legalism and double-talk of the SDA church.
Thus many embraced NCT, thinking it was the solution. But it is not. At least they tried to move on, and for that all should be praised. However, the quest for truth is not over. It must continue until the Sabbath problem is resolved.
Today, there is no reason for anyone to embrace NCT. Why? Because the true doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath has emerged for all to see. The 7th day Gospel Sabbath, which was invented in the 1st century and lost in the 2nd, is new, correct, church doctrine, for the 21st century Laodicean church.
Here is the completion of SDA Sabbath Reform. Here is the Sabbath doctrine that anchors the 4th Angels Message, completes the Protestant Reformation, and condemns the church. Here is the correct Gospel Sabbath.
Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath

See my previous reponses in red above for your last few statements.

Last edited by bob_2 (06-27-11 12:40 am)

bob_2 · 06-27-11 12:52 am

Hubb quotes Dr. Ford:

Desmond Ford wrote:
“Sinai was a replay of the Abrahamic covenant. See Psalm 105:9-11 which is quite clear on this matter.”
“The word "new" in relationship to the covenant actually means, "renewed," as with the "new" earth and the "new" heart. According to Hebrews 8:8-12, the essence of the law proclaimed at the Exodus is now written in the heart.”

This is a good example of Ford's shallow look at this topic. Abraham's promise can not be compared to the Mosaic Law, it is the very basis of the Old and New Covenants. The display of God's Holiness and Majesty was shown to many at Sinai, but to Abraham only with His Promise to him. Though the Promise was eternal where the Decalogue was only to the Jews. The Promise is the basis of the New Covenant and Christ is the fulfillment of the Sabbath. 2 Cor 3, and Col 2: 16,17.

Gal 3:...17 The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

Last edited by bob_2 (06-27-11 12:53 am)

bob_2 · 06-27-11 1:02 am

Another scholar John Piper makes a similar point as mine above:

Paul's response in Gal. 3:15-18 is this: There are among men (v. 15) and between God and man unalterable pacts. God made one with Abraham and his offspring. The pact was that the inheritance of salvation would come, not to all Abraham's descendants, but to the seed which is ultimately the Christ and all who are in him. No Christ, no inheritance! Given the nature of God and his pact, no later stipulation could annul it or void the promise of this pact. Therefore, (v. 17) in the law (given 430 years later) God is not putting the inheritance on a new basis. He is not saying: once I taught you to trust me; now I teach you to work for me; once I taught you to rely on grace, now I teach you to earn merit; once I taught you to magnify me through childlikeness, now I teach you to magnify yourselves through legalism. NO! God does not contradict his covenant in this way. He does not commend contrary ways of salvation. If God had set the inheritance on a new basis and taught people to earn their salvation, he would have opposed the promise and nullified grace and promoted pride and cancelled the stumbling block of the cross. The law is holy and just and good; it does not teach us to engage in the Galatian heresy, legalism, it teaches the obedience which comes from faith and applies the Abrahamic covenant to a new stage of redemptive history.

http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper83/041783m.htm

Last edited by bob_2 (06-27-11 1:05 am)

bob_2 · 06-27-11 1:19 am

C. H. Spurgeon says:

This fact it was necessary for our Lord to mention, in order to justify his disciples in having rubbed ears of corn together to eat on the Sabbath day. He said, "the priests in the sanctuary profane the Sabbath, and are blameless." They were engaged in the labors of sacrifice, and service all through the Sabbath-day, yet nobody accused them of breaking the law of the Sabbath. Why? Because the authority of the temple exempted its servants from the letter of the law. "But," saith our Lord, "I am greater than the temple, therefore, surely I have power to allow my servants who are about my business to refresh themselves with food now that they are hungry, and since I have given them my sanction to exercise the little labor involved in rubbing out a few grains of wheat, they are beyond all censure. If the sanction of the temple allows the greater labor, much more shall the sanction of one who is greater than the temple allow the less. As the Son of God, Christ is under no law. As man he has kept the law, and honored it for our sakes, because he stood as our surety and our substitute; but he himself in the essence of his nature is the law maker, and above all law. Who shall arraign the eternal Son, and call the Judge of all the earth to account? "Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker. Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth."

http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/1275.htm

Last edited by bob_2 (06-27-11 1:20 am)

bob_2 · 06-27-11 10:44 am

Tom said:

Did Jesus ever claim to be our Sabbath rest? No. In fact, Jesus NC Sabbath teaching did not focus on rest at all, but on Gospel action, good works, and lots of activity.

Look at these two verses:

Matt 11: 28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

and

Eph 2: 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Tom, can you read these, do they not nullify your comments? Look even in Jeremiah 31 where He claims that He will bring peace and rest.

Jeremiah 31:25 I will refresh the weary and satisfy the faint.”

Last edited by bob_2 (06-27-11 10:56 am)

bob_2 · 06-27-11 1:41 pm

Also, a closer reading of :

Psalms 105:8 He remembers his covenant forever,
the promise he made, for a thousand generations,
9 the covenant he made with Abraham,
the oath he swore to Isaac.
10 He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree,
to Israel as an everlasting covenant:
11 “To you I will give the land of Canaan
as the portion you will inherit.”

This is a conditional land promise. And the "forever" was a conditional statement. Do they possess the land promised, no!!! Why, because of their unbelief and not accepting the Messiah.

The Land Promise is different than the Salvational Promise which was based on a Promise to Abraham, not the Decalogue.

As I said, I believe Des Ford is too shallow here, because the Promise to Abraham is the basis of the covenant with Israel, but not the Decalogue, it did not exist in Abraham's time, Jacob or Isaac's time. There is a Promise of Salvation that is eternal, but Israel rejected the Messiah and thus the Land Promise that they do not inhabit today. They may have Salvation if they now turn and believe individually in Jesus the Messiah.

Last edited by bob_2 (06-27-11 1:48 pm)

bob_2 · 06-29-11 11:31 pm

If you and Hubb, Tom, aren't going to respond I would like you to change the thread title to

NCT Shown To Solve Saturday/Sunday Sabbath Issue.

Even if you won't do that, you need to change the naive title to the thread. Nothing was exposed that I can see except Tom and Hubb agreement exposed.

Last edited by bob_2 (06-30-11 12:45 am)

tom_norris · 06-30-11 3:55 pm

Bob2 said: Tom, the New Covenant is not a renewal of the old nor is it the same commandments. They are expansive and more detailed for more detailed situations, based on the Promise given to Abraham that allows other than Jews to be part of it.

Tom said: The same God of the OC is the same God of the NC, even as the OC is the context for the NC.

Moreover, both of the Covenants are only for the house of Israel. There are no Covenants made with the Gentiles. They must become “spiritual Jews” in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

The NT makes it clear that the Moral law is still the will of God and the definer of sin. However, salvation is now based on faith in Christ, as opposed to law.

In addition, I note that Jesus NC Sabbath EXCLUDES his followers from the law of the 4th Commandment. There is no longer any guilt or sin associated with working on the Sabbath. This is the point that Jesus made over and over. Why do so many not listen to him?

Those that try and exclude the Sabbath in the NC, or claim it features rest and passivity, are not paying attention to Christ. They have forfeited Eternal Life.

Bob2 said: As to your tone or mine, that is not the issue so I won't address it, but to only say that Bill Loveless who was at Glacier View, claims that Des did not address things in a good tone. The facts are what matter not the tone.

Tom said: I know Bill Loveless, in fact he married me and my wife over 20 years ago. He is very liberal and does not support Traditional Adventism, and I doubt he would ever support NCT. Regardless, such a remark means nothing. I know plenty of people who were at Glacier View, and most all agreed that Dr. Ford acted like a Christian gentlemen all during this false trial.

Dr. Ford is still a very kind, caring, and honest Pastor / scholar to this very day.

Bob2 said; The NCT is what it is and still evolving.

Tom said: What is NCT?

Answer: It is novel and false anti-Sabbatarian doctrine, based on absurd assumptions that are easily demolished.

There is no reason for NCT to evolve into anything, or lead to anywhere, - but repentance. It is worthless and wrong theology that has never been embraced by the church, nor will it ever be accepted by any denomination. It is that bad.

Bob2 said: I do not feel any dishonest or unchristian tactics have been put forth by me. However, if this was the point of the discussion, I certainly have long epistles as examples of yours that would demonstrate your tone over and over, berating the church.

Tom said: It is very dishonest to ignore the many points I have raised that disproves NCT. This is what the SDA’s do all the time. They pretend they are correct, even as they ignore the facts that defeat their position. This is very dishonest behavior, one that will keep all that use it out of the Kingdom of God.

Moreover, when the church is wrong about doctrine, a stern tone must be used, like that of Jesus with the Pharisees in Matt 23, or Paul with the Galatians and the leading apostles. Thus the precedent has been set for all to follow.

Bob2 said: Christ has declared Himself to be our rest as does Paul, and as something more important than the temple Matt 12:6. Christ has never commanded anyone to keep the Sabbath in the NT, but counters and says, My Father and I are always at our work. John 5: 16-18

Tom said: While Christ is our “rest,” he is not the weekly “Sabbath rest” of the OC. Rather, Christ is our spiritual, NC rest, 24/ 7. His “rest” is not once a week, nor did Christ ever say that he was our “Sabbath rest.” You are dishonestly inserting this word in the text when it was never there.

Unlike, the many passages in all four Gospels about the Reformed Sabbath, here are the only two places in all the Gospels where Jesus teaches about rest. They are only in Matthew, and they do not mention the word Sabbath. Why? Because he is not talking about the weekly Sabbath rest.

Matt. 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Matt. 11:29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

Furthermore, while you hang onto these two isolated passages, that do not say what you claim, you are also ignoring the numerous Sabbath passages of Christ, in all four Gospels, where he had every opportunity to claim he was our Sabbath rest. But he refused to take such a position, much less teach that the Sabbath was now going to be abolished in toto in the NC.

In addition, I have already showed you that Christ does instruct his followers to follow him and his reformed, working Sabbath. Over and over the call goes out to follow Christ, and embrace his Gospel Sabbath. Those who obey Christ will also embrace his view of the Sabbath, which is very different from the OC Sabbath.

Bob2 said: Look at these two verses:

 Matt 11: 28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Tom, can you read these, do they not nullify your comments? Look even in Jeremiah 31 where He claims that He will bring peace and rest.

Tom said: There is no mention in this passage about the Sabbath. If this is what Jesus meant to say, he would have said it. He taught much about the Sabbath, and nowhere does he ever claim to be our Sabbath rest. This fact is fatal.

In fact, there is no such phrase as “Sabbath rest” in the Gospels. Why not? Because such a position was NEVER taught by Jesus or his apostles, much less this absurd and outrageous point that Jesus omitted any instruction about the NC Sabbath.

Bob, you will never understand the NT if you don’t stop being so dishonest with the Bible. Your proof texting ways are leading you to false and impossible positions. You will never understand the Gospel clearly until you respect the Word and treat it honestly, through the use of the Protestant Hermeneutic.

To understand the Gospel Sabbath correctly, one must first go to the Gospels and sit at the feet of Jesus, the greatest theologian the world has ever known, and learn from him.

Those who refuse to do this, pretending that Jesus failed to teach a NC doctrine of the Sabbath, are closing their eyes to obvious and clear truth. They are blind by choice, and thus there is no forgiveness or salvation for them.

Note this passage, which is focused on Jesus Reformed Sabbath. Understand that Jesus is talking to those, like you and the SDA’s, who refuse to embrace his Gospel Sabbath, Note also that he warns against “pluralism,” or any view other than his.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.

John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

Those who embrace NCT, (or the Sunday, or the OC 7th day Sabbath) are not following Jesus, nor do they know him. They are “strangers,” frauds, and “thieves.”

So Bob, you need to be careful how you handle the Word. It is a great mistake to jump around from one irrelevant text to another, ignoring what you don’t like and adding words to passages you think supports your view. This is not Bible Study, but cultic apologetics and useless double-talk. Eternal life is not granted to those who act so foolish.

Bob2 said: As I said, I believe Des Ford is too shallow here, because the Promise to Abraham is the basis of the covenant with Israel, but not the Decalogue, it did not exist in Abraham's time, Jacob or Isaac's time. There is a Promise of Salvation that is eternal, but Israel rejected the Messiah and thus the Land Promise that they do not inhabit today. They may have Salvation if they now turn and believe individually in Jesus the Messiah.

Tom said: First off, you are not a peer of Dr. Ford’s, so you have no standing to judge him in any way. He is an experienced, educated, and published expert on the Gospel and church history. You are neither. So you are not qualified to dust Dr. Ford’s library, much less call him “shallow.” You are acting very arrogant, foolish, and disrespectful. But then again, this is how the SDA’s raised you. They taught you and others, very well.

Second, where did Dr. Ford claim that the Moral law was the basis for the NC? He never said such a thing. So why pretend?

Bob2 said: If you and Hubb, Tom, aren't going to respond I would like you to change the thread title to NCT Shown To Solve Saturday/Sunday Sabbath Issue.

Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. You have failed over and over to respond to the points I have made that destroy NCT. But yet you want to declare victory for your view? On what basis? Random passages that do not speak to the issues?

NCT is the most absurd and impossible solution that has ever been put forward to resolve the Sabbath debate. It is dishonest and reckless. It is poison. Let all run from this false and worthless doctrine.

It is time for the SDA community to focus on truth, not on more myths and false doctrine. It is sad to see people wasting their time defending garbage doctrines, like the IJ or NCT, when there is so much real truth to recover and understand.

NCT is a worthless diversion. It cannot be defended by anyone. Sorry.

Only the Reformed, Active, 7th day Sabbath, as taught by Christ in all four Gospels, is the genuine, NC Sabbath for the church.

Tom Norris for the 7th day Gospel Sabbath

Adventists for Tomorrow

Announcement

#1 06-16-11 12:34 pm

NCT Exposed As Error

#2 06-16-11 1:30 pm

Re: NCT Exposed As Error

#3 06-16-11 1:48 pm

Re: NCT Exposed As Error

#4 06-16-11 1:51 pm

Re: NCT Exposed As Error

#5 06-16-11 1:55 pm

Re: NCT Exposed As Error

#6 06-16-11 2:00 pm

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#7 06-18-11 11:31 am

Re: NCT Exposed As Error

#8 06-18-11 11:28 pm

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#9 06-22-11 2:22 pm

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#10 06-23-11 9:24 pm

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#11 06-23-11 10:49 pm

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#12 06-23-11 11:08 pm

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#13 06-24-11 6:12 pm

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#14 06-25-11 1:46 pm

Re: NCT Exposed As Error

#15 06-25-11 3:36 pm

Re: NCT Exposed As Error

#16 06-26-11 4:26 pm

Re: NCT Exposed As Error

#17 06-26-11 10:05 pm

Re: NCT Exposed As Error

#18 06-27-11 12:35 am

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#19 06-27-11 12:52 am

Re: NCT Exposed As Error

#20 06-27-11 1:02 am

Re: NCT Exposed As Error

#21 06-27-11 1:19 am

Re: NCT Exposed As Error

#22 06-27-11 10:44 am

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#23 06-27-11 1:41 pm

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#24 06-29-11 11:31 pm

Re: NCT Exposed As Error

#25 06-30-11 3:55 pm

Re: NCT Exposed As Error

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