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The REFORMED Seventh-day Sabbath
Does the church have a weekly Sabbath or is this just an optional doctrine?
What is the correct Sabbath for the Laodicean Church, if any?
Can it be on Sunday, or must it only be on Saturday, as the SDAs insist?
Or is the New Covenant Sabbath an Every Day state of mind that takes place all week?
The Old Covenant Sabbath of the Jews involved numerous rules, regulations, and prohibitions. Acceptable weekly Sabbath observance was strictly and legalistically interpreted; controlled by the religious leaders that claimed to have authority over how this doctrine is to be understood, observed, and obeyed. Here was religious bondage at its best.
However, this cannot be the correct Sabbath for the Church, because Jesus repudiated this view of the Sabbath, and placed a very different interpretation upon the Seventh-day. Thus he reformed the Sabbath FOR THE CHURCH and made it into a New Covenant doctrine, for which the Jews killed him. Here is the REFORMED SABBATH for all to see. It has been in the Gospels all along.
Only Jesus has the authority to interpret the doctrine of the Sabbath for the church. His teaching and example about how this weekly day is to be acknowledged and observed is what matters most. Jesus REFOMRED the 7th Day Sabbath for the church and for all those that claim to follow the Gospel.
So the NT has the necessary information to understand the proper Sabbath for the church. And what does the Gospel record say? Did Jesus say the Sabbath was going to be changed to Sunday or that it would be done away with altogether in the church era? Hardly.
Jesus REFORMED the Sabbath for the church. This is why the Gospels contain the Sabbath debates between Jesus and religious leaders. In these debates Jesus clearly supports the Jewish doctrine of Sabbath, even as he dramatically REFORMS it. He changed it from a legalistic and punitive doctrine into the Gospel Sabbath for the church. He changed it from an Old Covenant doctrine into a New Covenant doctrine, -- which was very different from what the Jewish leaders taught, and very different from what all Laodiceans teach today.
Although the church has embraced a weekly Sabbath over its long history, both the RCs and Protestants have embraced a false doctrine of the New Covenant Sabbath. And while the Sabbatarian minded SDAs are the worlds most ardent promoters of the Seventh-day Sabbath, they too have embraced a great Sabbatarian error; just like the Old Covenant Pharisees. The SDAs have embraced the very Sabbath that Jesus condemned in the Gospels. Which means that the SDAs have the right day, but the wrong Sabbath. Which also explains why they are not exempted from the Laodicean Message, which condemns every church and denomination.
Many anti Sabbatarians overlook the fact that the Christian Faith is a 100% Jewish paradigm. Both the Old and New Covenants are Semitic. This popular, Gentile idea that Sunday became the new Sabbath for the church has no basis in Judaism or the NT. There is no legitimate foundation for Sunday sacredness in the church, much less at the expense of the Gospel Sabbath that Jesus reformed in the NT. Sunday sacredness is a colossal, anti-Semitic, and anti Gospel fraud.
After the Romans destroyed Judaism, and the Gentiles took over the church, the REFORMED Sabbath of the apostolic Church fell victim to the Gentile fiction of Sunday. This anti Semitic doctrine became the standard weekly Sabbath for the Roman Catholic Church and even for the Protestants as evidenced by centuries of practice that still takes place in Laodicea every Sunday. The vast majority of the Christian world considers the Sunday Sabbath to be correct doctrine when it is no such thing.
So there are three distinct Sabbath possibilities for the church:
1. The Old Covenant Sabbath of the Pharisees
2. The Reformed Sabbath of Jesus in the Gospels,
3. The Sunday Sabbath of the Gentile Church.
There are two more possibilities:
4. The Every Day Sabbath, which was invented by the Gentile Church Fathers. This interpretation has not found any practical acceptance within the church except by those that try and refute the Seventh Day Sabbath. However, most Sabbatarian critics go to church on Sunday.
5. No Sabbath Day of any kind.
These are all the Sabbath options that exist.
However, it should be obvious that only the REFORMED SABBATH OF JESUS can be the correct Sabbath for the Church. There can be neither Old Covenant Sabbath keeping in the church nor a Sunday Sabbath. These are both great doctrinal errors that war against the Gospel and condemn the entire Laodicean church for embracing false doctrine.
Although it was the mission of the SDA church to proclaim the Seventh day Gospel Sabbath, even as they pointed out the great error of Sunday sacredness, they have failed. They did not understand the Gospel correctly, and thus they promoted a legalistic and Old Covenant Sabbath, complete with many rules and Pharisaical regulations that Jesus specifically and clearly repudiated. They have not understood the NT Sabbath correctly. They are as guilty as the Sunday keepers, if not more so, for embracing such false doctrine.
Let all Sabbatarians, as well as those that think Sunday sacredness is credible; study the Sabbath debates between Jesus and the Pharisees. There, in the Gospels, all will find the REFOMRED, 7th Day Sabbath. Also known as the New Covenant or Gospel Sabbath.
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (01-22-10 9:57 pm)
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Tom, I hope this helps. NOT.
You have repeatedly advocated for the NT Gospel Sabbath but nowhere have you described it. How is it different from the OT legalistic Sabbath in your opinion?
Actually, I don't believe Sunday has ever been dubbed as the Christian Sabbath.
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Sirje,
I second your question to Tom,
but I must let you down when you state that "I don't believe Sunday has ever been dubbed as the Christian Sabbath".
Actually in Finnish vernacular "sapatti" is synonymous with Sunday
and my grandpa was fined "for breaking the Sabbath" when he ploughed his fields on a Sunday.
No one else in the same village was fined for the same reason, but as an Adventist my grandpa was an eye-sore to the sheriff and therefore a suitable target for punishment;
In addition to that, grandpa was no example in considerateness.
I remember listening at him when he told to his neighbour - by using the text in Isaiah - how Lord would finish all who eat swine, mice and other disgusting animals
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Even academic people may use the word "sapatti" when they mean Sunday,
but then it has humorous connotation.
And then the topic of conversation is not theology.
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Most all 20th century Christians realize that Sunday didn't become the Sabbath. Before our time Christians did believe in Sunday sacredness.
Tom, your post sounds convincing. Now you need to plug in the scripture that cements your beliefs.
The New Testament theme certainly isn't about Sabbath observance. It isn't about what we do nearly as much as what has been done for us. How we treat others is the great commission after our acceptance of Him. Sabbath observance must have been very low on the priority list of the early church fathers.
Not stealing is a pretty blunt law as is most of what became the law of love. Observing a day requires much thought and cannot be left to the individual to decide what is holy and what is not. For all to be of one accord the law has to be expanded to take in many situations. I don't find these instructions anywhere in the New Testament. And you have said that the New Covenant Sabbath isn't like the Old so where do we get our "reformed Sabbath" rules? Is Ellen White the great authority on how we must observe the day? Maybe God has commissioned you to tell the world the order of things.
At any rate please plug in the texts that prove what you have told us. That would be very helpful in deciding how to honor God.
Thanks, Bob
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"You have repeatedly advocated for the NT Gospel Sabbath but nowhere have you described it. How is it different from the OT legalistic Sabbath in your opinion?"
Tom and I differ on several points, but I think I agree with him on his Sabbath message.
The Sabbath promoted by Jesus focuses on a day of grace and
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … version=31
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … ersion=31;
God made the Sabbath for humanity
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … version=31
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … version=31
I also believe that Jesus sought to restore the Sabbath to its rightful conception. For Jesus, the laws of Moses represent an accommodation by God to meet the hardness of the human heart, but the original plan of God was not so.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … version=31
The highlighted sections point to Matthew 12 and Mark 2.
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Tom,
Good thinking, Tom. I would like to make a couple of comments:
God gave the Jews 490 years probation Daniel 9:24 to complete the work that He gave them to do. This period of time came to an end when Jesus came. The “second temple” was intended to be even more glorious than the first because Jesus would be there. Instead, the Jews rejected their Messiah and crucified Him. Having rejected and crucified Jesus, the Jews failed in their God-given purpose and were in turn rejected by God as the covenant chosen people of God.
“Behold, your house is left unto you desolate” Matthew 23:38.
“Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof” Matthew 21:4
The Jews as a nation are rejected as the chosen people of God, and the Christian church is given the privileges and responsibilities of the covenant Romans 2:17-29; chapter 11; Gal. 3:29; 1 Peter 2:9, 10.
Thus what was truly given to Israel in the Old Testament becomes the privilege and responsibility of the Church in the New, including the Sabbath.
------------------------
Hubert F. Sturges
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The Sabbath was never intended to be for any people other that the Israelites. Jesus didn't teach a New Covenant Sabbath. You guys are so caught up with Ellenism that you can't see the truths taught in the New Testament. If you all really believe the Torah was not accomplished at Calvary and you are, as Gentiles, under Torah law then the Sabbath is only one ceremonial law to think about observing.
Jesus said:I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
The law disappeared at Calvary when He accomplished what no man could ever do. His New Covenant message is to go to all mankind. That means that I may take part in it and enjoy the promises and joy offered by it. The Rest that the Israelites missed is now available to all who will accept it and it is a complete rest in Jesus.
The reason SDAs can't understand the writings of Paul like the remainder of Christendom is the writings of Ellen White.
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Bob, the interest in the Seventh-day Sabbath goes way back before Ellen and other Sabbatarian Adventists.
http://store.mpn.net/productdetails.cfm?PC=130
http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/11/183.jpg
Part of the reason for the growth of the Seventh-day Adventist Church is because significant numbers of Christians recognize the Sabbath as an important part of the teachings of Christ. The Sabbath debates between Christ and the Jewish leaders mentioned by Tom and found in the Gospels clearly establish the Sabbath thinking of Christ. To follow Christ, includes following His teachings on the Sabbath.
The Adventist Church arose shortly after a Seventh-day Baptist day of prayer and fasting to ask that
God would arise and plead for His Holy Sabbath.
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Don,
So how do we extrapolate from this? In essence, the disciples were harvesting grain - is it OK to harvest anything on Sabbath? Jesus healed on the Sabbath - so is it OK to to work as a doctor/nurse/ambulance driver/janitor/hospital worker on the Sabbath AND GET PAID FOR DOING IT, using your pay to pay your Visa card?
Should all Sabbath keepers be health care workers?
When Jesus uttered the words, It is finished, He placed a punctuation mark on His earlier declaration in John 12:27ff
But for this purpose I came to this hour. ... Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. Salvation was accomplished at the cross and whatever God's declarations were before, were finished and culminated in Christ.
However, we are saying, YES IT'S FINISHED, BUT ONLY THE FIRST PHASE. NOW ALL GOOD CHRISTIANS MUST PROVE TO THE UNFALLEN UNIVERSE THAT GOD IS FAIR; AND GOD'S LAW CAN BE KEPT BY US; AND THAT, THAT LAW IS MAGNIFIED IN THE KEEPING OF THE SABBATH since it has halo around it and if the universe is to have proof that man can keep God's law, just look how the SDAs are keeping it. And so we cherry pick our way through the OT, keeping what we can comfortably keep, but leaving behind what seems outlandish even to us.
When it comes to the Sabbath, we have made our own list of rules and regulations, just like the Jews did; and we think we're keeping the Sabbath by following those arbitrary rules.
The entire book of Hebrews is for the Christian Jews who were still thinking they were special because of their Jewishness. The writer of Hebrews took great care to show how Christ was the culmination of the entire Jewish system with its laws and its focus on the SHADOWS that were the harbingers of Christ and His mission. SHADOWS were lifted by Christ and the old system is useless.
Christ came as the better and final prophet the final REVELATION of God's purposes Heb.1:1-2; superior to angles whatever their job is; superior to Moses (which in Bible lingo means THE LAW, superior to the Aaronic priesthood, AFTER THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK, who had nothing to do with any temple services; the superior sacrifice;no lambs or personal sacrifices necessary; and Christ is the SUPERIOR REST, as opposed to the Mosaic Sabbath.
We have taken that list of Christ';s superiority and twisted it around to say: even after God's greatest revelation to mankind, we still need a prophet to tell us how to live and what to think; we still need Christ ministering as the Aaronic priest in a temple in the sky; and we still must uphold the Mosaic laws, as we deem convenient; and we must ... the list goes on. And as we do all this, we have the nerve to think that we, alone, are now the chosen people of God- chosen to represent His purposes on the earth, as if we needed to add to what Christ had finished at the cross.
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Sirje,
I subscribe to your message.
I could not have formulated it better than you did.
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Whoa! 6 a.m., was that before the coffee or after?
You Rock and Roll Girl!!!
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Wow Sirge, What a well thought out post. Thank you.
David just indicated that you are a female. My son has a friend named Sirge who is male. I had you pictured as male.
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Keep up the good fight. Some will see the Light. Several have on another forum I write on. It is wonderful to witness the transformation. I have planted the seed in several of our friends and our family and have watched it grow. All the glory goes to the Holy Spirit who works tirelessly to help us see the simple Gospel.
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Part of the reason for the growth of the Seventh-day Adventist Church is because significant numbers of Christians recognize the Sabbath as an important part of the teachings of Christ.
I became aware of the Sabbath only after the SDAs, who were giving us Bible studies, presented it to us. It surely wasn't written on our hearts as some SDAs claim. If it were the church couldn't hold all who would be flocking into the fold.
That brings me to 2 Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
The ministry of the 10 commandments has faded. These verses tell us that Christians are no longer under the 10. Our guide is the Holy Spirit. Not being under the 10 means that we are no longer under Sabbath rule either. That is precisely why no mention of how to observe the day is given in the New Testament.
Jesus was under Torah law. Those He related to were dealt the same hand. Any action He took to relate to them as to how they should relate to Sabbath and was only to Israelites under the law. Gentiles were never under those laws and were not students of their laws. Had Jesus wanted to teach all mankind how to observe the day, surely He would have pin pointed how He wanted it kept. He didn't impress the Apostles to teach Sabbath observance either. Maybe they were just waiting for Ellen to come on the scene.
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It was actually 7:00 at my house - Atlantic time. And the coffee was decaf.
Yes, my name is with a J as opposed to the G in Serge or Sirge which could be, either French or Russian names, while mine is Estonian - but was a name my mom thought she made up on her own. Since then I have run across others with the same name but only on Estonian web sites.
Many years ago I had known of another girl with the same name in St.Catharines, ONT while I lived in New York. As an adult, many years later, when I moved to Nova Scotia a kid across the road told me that there was another Sirje living two houses down from me. I thought he was kidding, but there she was, another Estonian. What are the odds? I guess that's more information anyone needed on the subject.
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So how do we extrapolate from this?
Jesus taught that the Sabbath and its observance is for humanity; that acts of mercy make the essence of Sabbath observance.
Salvation was accomplished at the cross and whatever God's declarations were before, were finished and culminated in Christ.
This nullifies the Gospels. I consider the idea that Jesus declarations before the cross were finished at the cross to be a serious error. How can a person follow Jesus if all his recorded teachings are done away at the cross?
I agree that my salvation was fully arranged at the cross. The apostle Paul teaches that my salvation came to me so that I could do good works,
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … version=31
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … version=31
Titus 2:11-14
so that the righteous requirements of the law might be fulfilled in us.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … version=31 Romans 8
When it comes to the Sabbath, we have made our own list of rules and regulations, just like the Jews did; and we think we're keeping the Sabbath by following those arbitrary rules.
I agree that this is a problem in Adventism. I think that is what Tom means when he speaks about keeping the wrong Sabbath. Jesus supported His Sabbath; one based on mercy and generosity. Jesus support of all God's Law brings us back to the principles of living rather than the legalistic, or intensely regulated, way of living.
We have taken that list of Christ's superiority and twisted it around to say: even after God's greatest revelation to mankind, we still need a prophet to tell us how to live and what to think;
Paul teaches the importance of the prophetic gift not as a replacement for Christ but as part of the Christian's community.
we still need Christ ministering as the Aaronic priest in a temple in the sky;
Hebrews clearly teaches that Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary is not Aaronic but is essential to His work for us.
and we still must uphold the Mosaic laws, as we deem convenient; and we must ... the list goes on.
I believe that the usual Adventist explanations regarding the Mosaic laws is sloppy and inconsistent. We can do better. The Mosaic system was not followed by the Christian Church, see
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … version=31 Acts 15
And as we do all this, we have the nerve to think that we, alone, are now the chosen people of God- chosen to represent His purposes on the earth, as if we needed to add to what Christ had finished at the cross.
I agree that we need to view ourselves with a task rather than to believe we, alone, are the chosen ones. All who accepts Jesus are part of the Chosen Ones according to the New Testament.
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Don,
Salvation was accomplished at the cross and whatever God's declarations were before, were finished and culminated in Christ.
This nullifies the Gospels. I consider the idea that Jesus declarations before the cross were finished at the cross to be a serious error. How can a person follow Jesus if all his recorded teachings are done away at the cross?
I agree that my salvation was fully arranged at the cross. The apostle Paul teaches that my salvation came to me so that I could do good works, Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 2:11-14, so that the righteous requirements of the law might be fulfilled in us. Romans 8.
I don't understand your reasoning. Christ's relevance in this whole story includes His life as much as it does His death. In fact, Room 5:10 states,
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
This comes after this:
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
I believe the implication is that it was Jesus perfect character that is applied to us corporately, just as Adam's sin was applied without input from us.
The Gospel encompasses the whole experience of Jesus from birth to the resurrection and beyond.
Jesus preached in word as in his declaration about the Sabbath as well as DEED. He also kept all the Jewish laws and festivals which we feel we can ignore. So we don't copy Jesus in all things.
Hebrews certainly does go into great detail about the sanctuary and its service and applies it to Christ. But there is a huge discrepancy about that symbolism that SDA theology seems to discount. Hebrews 9 clearly says that the outer court was a symbol for the Old Covenant and its rituals which now are obsolete. The way into the second apartment was not disclosed while the first tabernacle was still standing and operational, which is symbol for the present time.
Not until Christ died and went to the Father the holiest place of all the way to God was not accessible and had to be accessed only through the rituals of the temple service. This is all set up by the initial declaration that Christ was High Priest but not from Aaron's line but after the order of Melchizedek. this is significant but only to those willing to consider it
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So we don't copy Jesus in all things.
I agree with you in most of what you have written in this last post. Yes, Jesus lived as a Jew respecting authority, etc. But, His teachings transcend Judaism and find relevance in Christian era.
Christ's teachings on the Sabbath are the only teachings I know of which many Christians have nullified or negated.
If Jesus had taught that the Sabbath was not important anymore doesn't it seem reasonable that one of the Gospel writers would have recorded such counsel. Instead, we find record of how He interprets what is real Sabbath observance.
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Don said:
If Jesus had taught that the Sabbath was not important anymore doesn't it seem reasonable that one of the Gospel writers would have recorded such counsel. Instead, we find record of how He interprets what is real Sabbath observance.
I look at this totally different Don. If the Apostles had thought the Sabbath had a halo around it, making it stand out from the rest, don't you think they would have taught how to observe it? The Gentiles would have needed much council as to how Jesus tweaked it for the New Covenant.
It is interesting that Jesus said this about His activity on the Israelite Holy day:Jn 5:17-19 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working. 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Since Jesus and the Father worked on the Sabbath shouldn't they be our example?
Resting in Jesus is a seven days a week event.
Lets just face it people, Jesus didn't teach a reformed Sabbath observance. He was showing just how hypocritical the Pharisees were. This had nothing to do with His teaching us how to observe Sabbath. You are creating a red herring.
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This had nothing to do with His teaching us how to observe Sabbath. You are creating a red herring.
This is where we differ. The stories of Jesus and the Sabbath remain. How we apply them to our lives determines how we align ourselves. The fruit of our beliefs will be the measure of their validity.
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Don,
If we were to accept the assumption that the laws of Moses, including the TEN, were meant for the Jews, does that negate its precepts for the NT Christian? All the commandments were based on the TWO GREAT COMMANDMENTS. In fact, when Jesus was asked which one of the commandments was the greatest, He simply quoted the two - love God and your fellow man.
When we quote that, we usually mean that the TEN can be categorized into the two; when actually, the two GREAT COMMANDMENTS, quoted by Jesus as a response this question, are the MAIN COMMANDMENTS of God, and the TEN are merely a part of the two, given to a certain people at a certain time. That does not mean there is no overlapping into our time and place.
The first three commandments certainly can be translated into our day with some modifications; for the fifth - it certainly is a good thing to honor your parents but there had to have been some immediate significance to it as it says, that you days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you.
That sounds like it has all to do with the promised land of Canaan and the honoring of parents has to do with sustaining the culture that brought the Israelites into this new land and kept them from homogenizing with the surrounding cultures. Clearly this has no meaning for us today, other than it's good to honor one's parents as long as they are honorable.
The command about murder is also up for debate with the issue of wars that were commanded by God; and the same goes for adultery - again possibly an issue of keeping the blood lines clear. The prohibition against stealing and lying certainly is universally good. When we get to the tenth, however, we get into an area where, not even we, ourselves, are able to monitor easily, but is something that makes for a happier life and is, possibly, the root of most sin.
I guess what I'm saying is that it's not that the nine out of the ten are totally relevant and only the fourth is in question, and only because people don't want to keep it. All of the ten are prescribed for a specific people, while the TWO GREAT COMMANDMENTS are the only ones that can have a truly universal relevance as their meaning must be guided by the indwelling Holy Spirit which was sent to lead us into all truth. If that means that you need to keep the Sabbath, great - as Paul says some keep a day while others deem all days the same, etc.
Personally, I have kept the Sabbath for most of my life and am in no hurry to dismiss it as a practice, but I don't believe it has anything to do with my salvation or even that ignoring it would be sinning - if that's done with a studied intention of following what one believes the Bible tells them to do.
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We always refer to Jesus keeping the Sabbath as our example, ergo, we should also observe it.
However, how do we justify Paul's complete elimination of the earliest Jewish ritual: circumcision; and the sacrifices and feasts, all of which Jesus observed as a good Jew?
Who gave Paul and the apostles authority to clearly say that the only requirements for the Gentile Christians was no food offered to idols, no blood, and no fornicating?
Does anyone feel confident in saying without sources furnished; that the Gentiles had EVER observed the Sabbath? Or that they were ever told they should observe Sabbath or any of the Jewish rituals and feasts?
If Paul had God-given authority, and all Christians rely on Romans and his other epistles as instructions to the new Christian church, how and on what Bible authority can it be said that the Gentile Christians all of us here should return to Judaism by observing the Sabbath given to them alone? Paul specifically wrote about returning to the laws that even the Jews were unable to keep, and yet, expectations are made of would-be Adventists that unless they accept this Jewish Sabbath; never mind that they are not required to be circumcised first as was ALWAYS the custom they cannot be an Adventist Christian?
If those who profess to keep the Sabbath because Jesus did, why are you not also keeping all the other laws that he did when he was here?
Another note: The 2nd Commandment specifically states that you shall not make yourself a carved image or any likenss of anything in heaven or on earth... and yet all churches, including SDAs commission statues, LLU's famous The Good Samaritan and Renie's and all the paintings and illustrations of God, Jesus, and other biblical characters in SDA books!
Adventists often claim to be commandment keepers unlike the other Christians who break the Fourth; and yet, ignoring that the Ten were given to no one but the Israelites, not even their forefathers, they regularly break the 9th when they give their evangelistic Revelation or Prophecy Seminars and hide and do not identify that the SDA church is the sponsor.
As for the 10th, no one, especially Americans who strive to get an education and better themselves, inevitably, covet something better for themselves. If that command were observed, parents could no longer encourage their children to even do better than they did. If there were no coveting in our hearts, we would just let the government take care of us and not work hard to get ahead.
Has anyone noted that in the Ten there is not one mention of Love? That there is no command against polgamy? That Jesus said that to love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself is the entire law? Or that to treat others as we would wish to be treated is not mentioned in the law, and Sabbath cannot be found in that simple, but complete Law Jesus gave?
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Don said:
This is where we differ. The stories of Jesus and the Sabbath remain. How we apply them to our lives determines how we align ourselves. The fruit of our beliefs will be the measure of their validity.
Sure they remain, but please give us a list of instruction other than it is OK to heal on Sabbath and a few examples I list below.
The fruit of our beliefs will be the measure of their validity. Don, Call me addleheaded, But I really don't understand your statement.
Am I overlooking when He wants us to start and end the Holy day? The Jews give us a hint, but Jesus didn't. Is it OK to cook food on Sabbath? I guess we can pluck grain, but He didn't tell us it is. Ellen certainly didn't OK it. It might be OK to pull our ox out of a ditch, but Jesus didn't tell us it is. He told the guy who couldn't walk to pick up his mat, but is it OK for us to do? Were all those incidences one time pardons or is it OK for us to do since they did it.
So, I have listed quite a few things that might be legal to do on Sabbath. How about the thousands of other issues that might arise? Example, the college I am attending has a serious problem and the only time final exams can be taken is on Sabbath. Is there any example of Jesus Sabbath instructions that would cover that or would we have to dig back into the Old law to get our answer? I could go on all night, but I sincerely pray that you get my point.
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including the TEN, were meant for the Jews
There is no doubt that the Ten Commandments were at the core of Jewish life. Afterall, they were written by the hand of God. We worship the same God as they. What was important to God for them, unless set aside by Him, is important to God for us.
There is considerable New Testament evidence that the principles of the Ten Commandments are important to the Christian Kingdom of God.
However, how do we justify Paul's complete elimination of the earliest Jewish ritual: circumcision; and the sacrifices and feasts, all of which Jesus observed as a good Jew?
Recall, that many in the early church did not agree with Paul. A council was called in Jerusalem and the Church came to agree re: the Mosaic Laws after not only Paul spoke but Peter and James as well. The whole body of believers endorsed the teachings of Paul. This is how a church develops its understandings through spirit-led messages from its individual members presented to the group.
There is no similar council recorded because of dispute over the Sabbath. Thus, I conclude that the Sabbath being done away was not a teaching of the apostolic church. That teaching came later.
The Sabbath is for me. God made it for man. The Christian lives by heart-felt principles not by legislation. The ten principles expressed in stone on Sinai are to be written on the tables of my heart. To say that a Sabbath-keeper has given up Christ and gone back to Judaism is incorrect.
I believe that it makes natural sense to have a day of rest. I like the God-given idea of a weekly rest. I see no reason in scripture to deny my convictions on this. I am free to manage how I will use the gift.
The rules about cooking were standards that arose out of the principle of time management, IMO. Cooking was an all day job on their 40 year campout. The moms would get a break from work by that regulation.
The Sabbath covers both Love to God and Love to man. The Sabbath is the setting aside a day for activities directed toward loving God. It also gives those in my employ a day off. Even the domestic animals get a break.
I believe it is wrong to seek for more and more regulations in the group managing of the Sabbath. Ideas for Sabbath observance are helpful, legal rules are not.
I mentioned the fruit of my beliefs earlier. Jesus said we will know people by their fruit. I believe that we can also judge doctrine by its fruit.
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I have absolutely no quarrel with taking Saturday as the day of rest. It is a wonderful principle that for many years was used as part of the Jewish rituals provided by God. I say go for it if that is your persuasion.
However, the SDA church teaches that unless we observe the Sabbath we will receive the mark. This is a conjured up scare tactic, false in every aspect and should be completely discarded by the church. I know it won't happen, so I will continue to warn the unsuspecting as long as the Savior gives me breath.
I believe we have given more than enough scriptural evidence that the old law is not in any way the guide that Jesus would have us follow. It didn't work then and there is no reason to believe it works now. I see vibrant Christians everywhere and I know that God is blessing those who love Him.
You tell us that the 10 are written on your heart. Is the Holy Spirit selective in placing laws in our hearts? Why are so many spirit filled Christians lacking these laws? Did you come to the realization that the 10 were there or did someone tell you they were there? How about the clean and unclean regulations and the tithing laws. Are they, too, etched on your heart. I am not trying to be sarcastic in my questioning. It is really hard for me to understand. I never experienced the tugging at my heart concerning the Sabbath.
In fact there was never a time that I felt any tugging to keep any day. The only way I found out about the Sabbath was through studying with Adventists. Even after I accepted the day it was always an intellectual feeling and not something the Spirit was telling me to do. I would really get upset after Sabbath when I took account of my day. I always came away feeling guilty because I hadn't kept it according to how I had been taught. The Holy Spirit never helped me to keep it perfect. Why, I wonder, He impresses me, when I am tempted, not to take things that don't belong to me.
This is very serious Don. If I have my head buried in the sand and am denying the beckoning of the Spirit I am in trouble. On the other hand if what you are saying is just what you have gleaned from others then that is serious business.
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