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The Sabbath in Colossians:
The SDA’s have always had a problem with Paul’s theology. They don’t understand Galatians or Romans, or Paul’s reference to the Sabbath in Colossians.
Consequently, the 19th century SDA’s claimed the Sabbath in Colossians was only a reference to the Jewish Ceremonial Sabbaths; not to the weekly Sabbath of the 4th Commandment. This coincides with Uriah Smith’s view that the law in Galatians is only the ceremonial law, not the Moral.
Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Smith’s popular “ceremonial” position, which had become official church doctrine, would be challenged and exposed as error during the infamous 1888 debates about the Two Covenants. However, the SDA’s were unable to agree, and once divided, they self-destructed at the turn of the century for all to see.
Early SDA View of Colossians 2: 16.
Up until 1886, the SDA’s confidently proclaimed their Two Law theory, which featured the ceremonial law in Galatians and the obscure ceremonial Sabbaths in Colossians 2: 16. But then something happened that would forever change Adventism. The theology of Luther would be injected into SDA theology in a surprising manner, and the ramifications would be as dramatic and they were destructive.
E. J. Waggoner, a second generation SDA, discovered Luther’s Commentary on Galatians. Luther’s writings convinced Waggoner that Smith’s position, and that of all the SDA leaders, including Ellen White, was wrong. Consequently, he went on a campaign for theological reform within the church, creating a firestorm that still throws off heat today.
At first, in 1886, D. M. Canright opposed young Waggoner’s view, along with all the other SDA leaders. But then, as he prepared to defend the Sabbath in public debate, he did an about face. He realized that Waggoner, and Luther, were correct about the law in Galatians. Which also led him to repudiate the SDA view of Colossians 2: 16.
As a direct result of Waggoner’s agitation about the law and the Gospel, Canright left the church in 1887 and became its greatest critic. Ellen White ended up agreeing with Waggoner and was slandered and exiled by the leaders as a result. Smith and most others, never understood nor embraced, the profound theology that Waggoner and Ellen White promoted, and thus Waggoner would leave the church, just as Canright had done 15 years earlier.
Listen to Canright repudiate the SDA position, which denies that the Sabbath can be a type or a shadow:
"But it is argued that as 'the sabbath days' of Col.2: 16 'are a shadow of things to come' (verse 17), and the weekly Sabbath is a memorial of creation, pointing back to the beginning, therefore they cannot be the same; for the Sabbath could not point both ways.
But is not this a mere assertion without any proof?
How do we know that it cannot point both ways?
The Passover was a memorial of their deliverance from Egypt, and always pointed back to that event. Ex.12: 11-17. Yet it was also a shadow of Christ. Col.2:16,17. ' Even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us.' 1Cor.5:7.
So all those annual feasts were types of Christ in some way, and yet all were memorials also of past events, as all know.... Paul says plainly that Sabbath days are a shadow of things to come; and one plain statement of Inspiration is worth a thousand of our vain reasonings. This is in harmony with Paul's argument in Heb.4: 1-11, that the seventh day is a type.
For forty years we have tried to explain away this text, and to show that it really cannot mean what it says; but there it stands, and mocks all our theories.
The Sabbath is a type, for Inspiration says so. "
D. M. Canright; Advocate of Oct. 1, 1887.
SDA’s WRONG about Colossians:
While Canright is hardly an unbiased or objective source, he is correct. Uriah Smith and the SDA’s were very wrong to claim that the laws in Galatians, or the Sabbaths in Colossians, are only related to the ceremonial law. The SDA’s do not correctly understand the Word, or the mind of Paul to make such an error.
Today, the SDA’s have learned nothing from their past debates and schisms. They are still trying to defend the errors of Uriah Smith and cover up what really happened in 1888. Sad.
Here is the present SDA position on Colossians:
http://www.sabbathintersections.com/sab … ns-216-17/
http://www.colossians-2-16.com/
http://www.colossians-2-16.info/
http://www.colossians2-16.com/
Unfortunately, the SDA’s think like a cult. They are not committed to truth, but to the false traditions of Uriah Smith. Thus they are committed to defending their many errors and myths, no matter what the scriptures actually teach.
Today, the SDA’s have embarked on an online campaign to promote their false propaganda, as if the repetition of error, combined with fancy graphics, will somehow make their doctrines true. But this is no way to treat the Word. Shame on the SDA’s!
SDA’s DISHONEST
The link below is to one of many dishonest SDA sites that have emerged to defend the confusion of the Adventists. Rather than honestly debate the issues and study the facts, the SDA’s would rather publish their doctrines as if they have no critics or errors. Thus they sneak around and play games, like a silly two-bit cult, declaring they alone are correct and all others wrong.
The SDA’s have become so cultic with their propaganda that they feel the need to hide their identity and cover up who they really are. Thus the web is full of these SDA stealth sites that try and pretend they are objective, honest, and true when the opposite is the case.
“Since having a denominational name gives Satan something to attack and many Christians have the tendency to judge truth by denomination rather than the Word of God, we have chosen not to reveal denomination. This decision was made with much prayer and ultimately so this ministry could be more effective in spreading truth to the world.”
http://www.colossians-2-16.com/about.html
The SDA’s are so full of themselves that they declare anyone who challenges their views to be an agent of Satan. They pretend that a fair reading of the Word will vindicate them, when the opposite is the case.
Something is very wrong if a denomination is ashamed to honestly identify themselves, up front for all to see. And something is also very wrong when the leaders refuse to have a public discussion about doctrine. Honest people do not hide or run from open discussion and the study of the Word. But the SDA’s are not honest, nor are they even trying.
Let all be warned of the dishonest and double-talking SDA’s. They don’t understand the Bible or the Gospel correctly, nor do they care. They have a legalistic and cultic agenda to promote and that is what they are going to do. They are a wretched denomination that needs to repent and reform.
http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/the … links.html
The Sabbath in Colossians:
The SDA claim that the plural Greek for Sabbath means “ceremonial” Sabbath is wrong. The Bible does not support this false interpretation. There are numerous passages that show Sabbaton to mean the weekly, 7th day Sabbath of the Jews.
Let all SDA’s understand that Paul is making a reference to the weekly Sabbath of the Moral Law. Not to the more obscure “ceremonial” Sabbaths, which are themselves directly related to the Sabbath of the Moral Law.
Note the following:
• Sabbatarians attempt to discredit the fact that the third reference in the passage is a reference to the Weekly Sabbath of the Decalogue by saying that Paul used the plural form of the word, which would signify it was one of the other kind of ceremonial Sabbaths. This attempt to evade the plain meaning of the passage doesn’t work because there are about 20 other places in Scripture where the plural form of the word Sabbath, Sabbaton, is used where context demands the meaning be the weekly Sabbath.
The Greeks didn’t have the same concern over plural versus singular forms of words that is found in the English language.
• The sentence structure FESTIVAL, NEW MOON, SABBATH is a phrase used in the Hebrew to imply the three aspects of Jewish festival structure and designates the order of ANNUAL, MONTHLY, WEEKLY. This same annual, monthly and weekly sequence appears five times in the Septuagint― i.e., 2 Chron. 2:4; 31:3; Neh. 10:33; Ezek. 45:17; Hosea 2:11.
All through the history of the Israelites we have Annual Sabbaths, Monthly Sabbaths, and Weekly Sabbaths. If the word Sabbath as used here means monthly Sabbaths, the sentence would read, “Annual Sabbaths, Monthly Sabbaths, and Monthly Sabbaths.”
If it were an annual Sabbath Paul meant here, the sentence would read, “Annual Sabbaths, Monthly Sabbaths, and Annual Sabbaths.
• Whenever the Old Testament links the New Moon celebration with the Sabbath, as in Colossians 2:16, it is referring to the Weekly Sabbath (2 Kings 4:23, 1 Chron. 23:31, 2 Chron. 2:4; Neh. 10:33; Isa., 1:13; 66:23; Ezek. 45:17; 46.1: Hosea 2:11: Amos 8:5).
• In the Old Testament, annual Sabbaths are always called “a Sabbath of rest” in the Septuagint. This Greek version of the Old Testament always, or nearly always, translates this as Sabbata Sabbaton― not simply Sabbaton― as here in Colossians 2:14-17.
• Paul clearly states that these four things ―diet, annual feasts, monthly feasts, and the Weekly Sabbath―are not to be made a test of Christian belief and practice because they are merely shadows of things that were to come, whereas Christ is the Reality.
To try to salvage Sabbatarianism, the Adventists say that Paul could not possibly have meant a weekly Sabbath here because the Sabbath was a memorial pointing backwards to Creation. This SDA approach fails miserably because the most significant Jewish memorials pointed both backward and forward at the same time.
In Colossians, prior to this passage, Paul refers to Adam as a symbol of Christ. In fact it is possible that all the major Jewish ordinances point both backward and forward at the same time.
• Paul was a Jew, and the Jews, for thousands of years, have used the Sabbath as a symbol of the rest that will come in the after-life. This fact is well-documented in Jewish literature, both ancient and modern.
• Since the Jews viewed the TORAH as 613 equally important, inseparable laws, it is impossible that St. Paul meant that only the “ceremonial” laws were nailed to the cross.
Before Dr. Bacchiocchi, Adventists taught that if the Sabbath mentioned by Paul in Colossians 2:14-17 was a reference to the weekly Sabbath, it was different than the other items in Paul’s list of several Jewish ordinances because it was an eternal, moral principle.
Note that Dr. Bacchiocchi refused to use this argument because the Jewish concept of TORAH law will not permit it, and the sentence structure of the passage requires that the Sabbath mentioned in the list is the weekly Sabbath of the Decalogue.
http://74.125.93.132/searchq=cache:C0fJ … ent=safari
The SDA View Falls Flat!
The SDA argument that the word Sabbath is plural, and therefore not a reference to the Sabbath of the 10 Commandments is absurd and easily refuted by scripture. The OT and the NT often refers to the Sabbath of the 4th commandment in the plural. So to did Paul in Colossians and Luke in Acts.
Ex. 31:13 “But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.
Lev. 19:3 ‘Every one of you shall reverence his mother and his father, and you shall keep My sabbaths; I am the LORD your God.
Lev. 19:30 ‘You shall keep My sabbaths and revere My sanctuary; I am the LORD.
Lev. 26:2 ‘You shall keep My sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary; I am the LORD.
Ezek. 20:12 “Also I gave them My sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.
Ezek. 20:16 because they rejected My ordinances, and as for My statutes, they did not walk in them; they even profaned My sabbaths, for their heart continually went after their idols.
Ezek. 20:20 ‘Sanctify My sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.’
Ezek. 20:21 “But the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, nor were they careful to observe My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live; they profaned My sabbaths. So I resolved to pour out My wrath on them, to accomplish My anger against them in the wilderness.
Ezek. 22:8 “You have despised My holy things and profaned My sabbaths.
Ezek. 46:3 “The people of the land shall also worship at the doorway of that gate before the LORD on the sabbaths and on the new moons.
Acts 17:2 And according to Paul’s custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
So the SDA’s are wrong. The Sabbath referenced by Paul is the one that has its roots in the 4th Commandment. It is the 7th day Sabbath of the Jewish Decalogue.
Here are some different translations of Col 2: 16. Not one of them supports the SDA view. This is followed by 11 passages that also show the same Greek word # 4521 Sabbaton.
Note the context of each passage and understand that the SDA interpratation is wrong. The Greek word, regardless if it is plural, refers to the weekly Sabbath of the Decalogue.
http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4521.htm
<< Colossians 2:16 >>
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—
King James Bible: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
American King James Version: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
American Standard Version: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:
Douay-Rheims Bible: Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in respect of a festival day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths,
Darby Bible Translation: Let none therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in matter of feast, or new moon, or sabbaths,
English Revised Version: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:
Webster's Bible Translation: Let no man therefore judge you in food, or in drink, or in respect of a holy-day, or the new-moon, or of the sabbaths:
World English Bible: Let no one therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new moon or a Sabbath day,
Young's Literal Translation: Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,
http://scripturetext.com/colossians/2-16.htm
Sabbaton = The Weekly Sabbath:
http://www.abcog.org/sabbath.htm
σαββάτων (sabbatōn)
11 Occurrences
Strong's Number 4521 (σάββατον: Sabbath day)
Matthew 28:1 ὀψὲ δὲ σαββάτων, τῇ ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς μίαν σαββάτων ἦλθεν Μαρία / Μαριὰμ ἡ Μαγδαληνὴ καὶ ἡ ἄλλη Μαρία θεωρῆσαι τὸν τάφον.
Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.
Noun: Genitive Plural Neuter
Matthew 28:1 ὀψὲ δὲ σαββάτων, τῇ ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς μίαν σαββάτων ἦλθεν Μαρία / Μαριὰμ ἡ Μαγδαληνὴ καὶ ἡ ἄλλη Μαρία θεωρῆσαι τὸν τάφον.
Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. Noun: Genitive Plural Neuter
Mark 16:2 καὶ λίαν πρωῒ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων ἔρχονται ἐπὶ τὸ μνημεῖον ἀνατείλαντος τοῦ ἡλίου.
Very early on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. Noun: Genitive Plural Neuter
Luke 4:16 Καὶ ἦλθεν εἰς Ναζαρά, οὗ ἦν τεθραμμένος καὶ εἰσῆλθεν κατὰ τὸ εἰωθὸς αὐτῷ ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῶν σαββάτων εἰς τὴν συναγωγήν καὶ ἀνέστη ἀναγνῶναι.
He came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. He entered, as was his custom, into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. Noun: Genitive Plural Neuter
Luke 24:1 Τῇ δὲ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων ὄρθρου βαθέως ἐπὶ τὸ μνῆμα ἦλθον φέρουσαι ἃ ἡτοίμασαν ἀρώματα.
But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they and some others came to the tomb, bringing the spices which they had prepared. Noun: Genitive Plural Neuter
John 20:1 Τῇ δὲ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων Μαρία ἡ Μαγδαληνὴ ἔρχεται πρωῒ σκοτίας ἔτι οὔσης εἰς τὸ μνημεῖον καὶ βλέπει τὸν λίθον ἠρμένον ἐκ τοῦ μνημείου.
Now on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene went early, while it was still dark, to the tomb, and saw the stone taken away from the tomb. Noun: Genitive Plural Neuter
John 20:19 Οὔσης οὖν ὀψίας τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ τῇ μιᾷ σαββάτων καὶ τῶν θυρῶν κεκλεισμένων ὅπου ἦσαν οἱ μαθηταὶ διὰ τὸν φόβον τῶν Ἰουδαίων ἦλθεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς καὶ ἔστη εἰς τὸ μέσον καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς· εἰρήνη ὑμῖν.
When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were locked where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be to you." Noun: Genitive Plural Neuter
Acts 13:14 αὐτοὶ δὲ διελθόντες ἀπὸ τῆς Πέργης παρεγένοντο εἰς Ἀντιόχειαν τὴν Πισιδίαν, καὶ ἐλθόντες / εἰσελθόντες εἰς τὴν συναγωγὴν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῶν σαββάτων ἐκάθισαν.
But they, passing on from Perga, came to Antioch of Pisidia. They went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and sat down. Noun: Genitive Plural Neuter
Acts 16:13 Τῇ τε ἡμέρᾳ τῶν σαββάτων ἐξήλθομεν ἔξω τῆς πύλης παρὰ ποταμὸν οὗ ἐνομίζομεν προσευχὴν εἶναι καὶ καθίσαντες ἐλαλοῦμεν ταῖς συνελθούσαις γυναιξίν.
On the Sabbath day we went forth outside of the city by a riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down, and spoke to the women who had come together. Noun: Genitive Plural Neuter
Acts 20:7 ἐν δὲ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων συνηγμένων ἡμῶν κλάσαι ἄρτον, ὁ Παῦλος διελέγετο αὐτοῖς μέλλων ἐξιέναι τῇ ἐπαύριον, παρέτεινέν τε τὸν λόγον μέχρι μεσονυκτίου.
On the first day of the week, when the disciples were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and continued his speech until midnight. Noun: Genitive Plural Neuter
Colossians 2:16 Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω ἐν βρώσει καὶ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων· Let no one therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new moon or a Sabbath day. Noun: Genitive Plural Neuter
http://concordance.biblos.com/sabbato_n.htm
Of Hebrew origin (shabbath); the Sabbath (i.e. Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension, a se'nnight, i.e. The interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications -- sabbath (day), week.
see HEBREW shabbath
σάββασιν (sabbasin) − 13 Occurrences
σάββατα (sabbata) − 1 Occurrence
σάββατον (sabbaton) − 14 Occurrences
σαββάτου (sabbatou) − 13 Occurrences
σαββάτῳ (sabbatō) − 16 Occurrences
σαββάτων (sabbatōn) − 11 Occurrences
4521. sabbaton
http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4521.htm
The Sabbath of the Moral Law Under Discussion in Colossians.
The Greek word for Sabbath in Colossians is a clear and unmistakable reference to the Sabbath of the Moral law. This is the primary Sabbath, from which the “ceremonial Sabbaths” originate. The ceremonial Sabbaths of the Jews did not precede the master doctrine found in the Decalogue. The opposite is the case.
Which means that Paul is referencing the historic weekly Sabbath of the Jews. He has no interest or intention of bifurcating, or separating, the Moral from the Ceremonial law as the SDA’s teach. This SDA delusion that Paul meant “ceremonial Sabbaths” as opposed to the weekly 7th day Sabbath is against the facts.
The SDA’s do not understand Paul or his Gospel. They have no idea what he is really saying about the law, nor do they want to understand. They are the modern day enemies of Paul and his Gospel. They are the present day Judaizers, preaching the Sabbath and the law as if such Old Covenant behavior were part of the Gospel. But the law is not the Gospel.
The SDA’s need to repent and learn how to read the Bible. They are making fools of themselves with their cultic delusions about doctrine and church history. They are wrong about the Sabbath in Colossians, was well as the law in Galatians. Only when they repent, and stop trying to make the Bible say what they want it to say, will they understand the Gospel.
Here are a number of links about Col 2: 16, starting with the former SDA Robert Brinsmead’s view:
http://www.babylonforsaken.com/sabbathc … ns216.html
http://liftedveil.org/sabbath_colossian … ne_becker/
http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd24.htm
http://www.bible.ca/7-Col2-14-16.htm
http://bible.cc/colossians/2-16.htm
http://jonathanemason.wordpress.com/wel … ossians-2/
http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/ … _notes.pdf
http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseact … seID/29511
Sabbath Not Removed
Although the SDA’s are clearly wrong to pretend that the Sabbaths in Colossians are NOT the weekly 7th day variety, they are NOT wrong to claim there is a Sabbath for the church. They are also NOT wrong to teach that Sunday is false doctrine. So they get some credit. But their Sabbath needs much reform, like most everything they teach.
The SDA’s should not fear an honest reading of Colossians 2: 16. Paul is not declaring the end of the Sabbath as the Sabbatarian critics claim. Rather, he is acknowledging its existence, even as he is declaring that all are free to use the Sabbath day as they see fit.
None are allowed to criticize or judge anyone about their Sabbath behavior, or their behavior regarding religious holidays. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, and all that follow him are Priests of God and answer only to God; not to the Judaizers or to any religious elites that want to promote a false Sabbath.
Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —
The anti-Sabbatarian critics are not correct with their views any more than are the SDA’s. Paul is not removing the Sabbath, and neither was he endorsing Sunday as the Lord’s Day. He does not know any such doctrine, and thus Paul is not saying that Sunday keeping is valid or free from criticism as false doctrine. There was no such Sunday doctrine at this time, nor could one ever be legitimately invented downstream.
There is nothing in this passage that removes the 7th day Sabbath from the church, or promotes Sunday as the Lord’s Day.
So what is the problem? Why so much confusion about the Sabbath in the Church? Why are the SDA’s so confused? They were supposed to be the Sabbatarian experts?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity
The Old Covenant Sabbath:
Here is the problem with the SDA’s. They are legalistic and Old Covenant minded. They do not understand the difference between the law and Gospel, nor do they understand how to honestly read the Bible. They represent the Judaizers in the Gospel Story, enemies of Paul.
The SDA’s are not New Covenant Christians, and thus they do not understand the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath. The only Sabbath they know is the one from Moses, with its legions of rules and regulations. Thus the SDA’s promote a Gentile version of the Old Covenant Sabbath, complete with sunset calendars, tithing, and a ban on most work and all play.
The SDA’s only know the Sabbath of Moses. But this “tutor” or “schoolmaster” Sabbath, with its many rules and regulations, cannot be practiced in the church. There can be no Old Covenant Sabbath keeping in the church. Period!
Gal. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal. 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, (or practice tithing and the Old Covenant Sabbath), Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, (or pays tithe and embraces the Old Covenant Sabbath), that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
The NC Sabbath, as taught by Jesus and endorsed by Paul, is very different from the Sabbath of the Pharisees, Judaizers, and SDA’s. THIS is the Sabbath that the Adventists need to better understand and embrace, even as they repent for tithing, which is another one of their OC errors that they observe every 7th day.
Paul’s view of the Gospel does not destroy the Moral law or the NC Sabbath as the Sabbatarians fear. Rather, he is endorsing the Sabbath teaching of Jesus and repudiating the OC, legalistic Sabbath of the Pharisees. He is upholding the freedom of the Gospel as well as the Priesthood of every believer. But the SDA’s are blind to the mind of Paul and the Gospel.
Unlike the OC model, all in the church are Priests. None are subject to the rules of OC Sabbath Keeping as the SDA’s teach. None are to be judged by anyone in the NC as to what they do or not do on the Sabbath. They are free to work and do all manner of activity, just as Jesus teaches in the NT.
Thus the SDA’s have no right to act like the Pharisees and declare that it is sin to work on the Sabbath. They have no theological basis to pretend it is a sin to work on the NC Sabbath, much less to encourage their members to sue their employees so that they can get a special work schedule. The Sabbath of Christ is very different from what the SDA’s teach.
SDA’s are wrong to make such rules and Sabbath “judgments.” They need to shut their mouths about the Sabbath until they understand how it is defined and understood in the NT. Their version of the Sabbath is very wrong, and they need to repent and correct this primary doctrine of the Third Angels Message.
There is no salvation in any form or type of Sabbath keeping, much less Old Covenant Sabbath keeping. Nor is the church to ever enforce a list of rules that mimics the OC Sabbath, like the SDA’s have done. This is forbidden by Paul in Colossians 2: 16.
The New Covenant Sabbath:
The apostolic church, and all that have followed, have always had a weekly Sabbath. Both the RC’s and the Protestants agree that such a doctrine represents our obligation to the Moral law. So there is no debate that the church must have a weekly Sabbath. The only questions are how the NC Sabbath is defined? And on whose authority?
The SDA’s (and others) are correct to say that the Sunday Sabbath, aka the Lord’s Day, is a false doctrine. Sunday can never become the genuine Sabbath for the church, even though most all follow this false doctrine. So if Sunday is wrong, what is correct?
Are the SDA’s correct?
It is one thing to point out errors and mistakes, but another to find truth. The SDA’s have done the former, but not the latter. Their promotion of the Old Covenant, Sabbath of Moses is WRONG. Jesus is the Lord of the New Covenant Sabbath and he is the one that defines this important weekly doctrine for the church. NOT MOSES.
While Sunday is wrong, so too is the Old Covenant SDA Sabbath. The church can only embrace the Sabbath “according to Christ.” This is a very different Sabbath from anything taught by the SDA’s or anyone else in Laodicea today. Which means that every church at the end of time is called to repent for their false view of the Gospel and the Sabbath, -starting with the SDA’s.
The church is obligated to embrace the Gospel Sabbath as taught by Jesus and the apostles, including Paul. They are also obligated to repent for the error of Sunday and for the SDA, Old Covenant Sabbath. This is what the true Pre-Advent Judgment of the Church demands.
So there is a Gospel Sabbath for the last church to understand and embrace. But neither the SDA’s nor the Sunday keepers have it correct. This must change, even as the final Adventist Message will feature a very different Sabbath from what has been promoted by the SDA’s all these years.
Col. 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
There is an OC and a NC Sabbath. They are very different. The law based, “schoolmaster” Sabbath of Moses has been replaced with the Gospel Sabbath, as articulated and defined by Jesus in the Gospels.
This Sabbath is “according to Christ” and is the true Lord’s Day. All are free to work or play, according to the Sabbath reforms that Jesus teaches in the Gospels. His definition of the Sabbath is very different from what the SDA’s promote, which is why they are so wrong.
The Adventists do not fully or correctly understand the Sabbath. They are very wrong about Colossians 2: 16 and many other passages. Paul is clearly referring to the Sabbath of the Moral law in both Colossians and Galatians, and no one should pretend otherwise. The Adventists need to repent and stop making fools of themselves.
Paul in Colossians is defending the Gospel Sabbath by correctly saying that no one has the right to Judge how any Christian views the New Covenant Sabbath (or even some other religious holidays).
The OC rules about the Sabbath, or church finance, etc., do not work in the NC. Consequently, the SDA prohibition about work and many others things, will not hold up. They have the WRONG Sabbath and they have always had the wrong Sabbath, because they never understood nor embraced the Gospel correctly.
There is a Gospel Sabbath for the Laodicean Church to discover and enjoy. This testing doctrine will show who respects the Word and understands the Gospel and who does not.
The SDA’s are still blind to the Gospel. They are still promoting the Old Covenant Sabbath from Moses instead of the New Covenant version from Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath and the Savior of the world. They must repent and embrace the Gospel Sabbath, even as all others must also follow.
Heb. 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
The Gospel and Old Covenant Sabbath keeping do not mix. However, there is a New Covenant Sabbath for the Gospel believing, Protestant church. This is what the SDA’s, and all others, need to embrace before it is too late.
Let all SDA’s find the Gospel and repent of their Old Covenant Sabbath keeping.
See additional links about the Reformed Sabbath:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … sion-1.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … bath-2.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ath-30.htm
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for All Experts.com and Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (02-11-10 3:43 pm)
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Maybe I am dull or just don't get what Tom is saying. Are you supporting a Gospel need to keep a 24 hour period holy or recognizing that Christ satisfied the Sabbath in Himself?
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I think I see the difference in the two Sabbaths Tom addresses. It is kind of like two kinds of tithing.
I'll explain:
The weekly Sabbath is a wonderful habit; a gift of God but, if I turn the Sabbath into a whip or lash, the gift of God is made a sacrilege.
So with tithing. First, its impossible to tithe like the Jews did; too many differences. It is also impossible to keep the Sabbath like the Jews did. Theirs was a union and church and state. Nehemiah was within his constitutional rights to pull beards, etc. Not today, in America.
The Sabbath is a wonderful weekly gift; an idea born in heaven and borne to humanity. Tithing is the same. Out of chaos comes order in both cases; the chaos of time and the chaos of finances. The Sabbath and Tithe brings order to the spheres.
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I'll agree that it is impossible to keep the Sabbath like the Jews did. But then it is impossible for Gentiles to keep a Sabbath that was never given to anyone but the Jews!
Adventists surely have tried to institute Sabbath no-no's from the beginning, and still do: no baths after sundown, no cooking, no eating out, no playing sports see my recent story of an SDA couple who was estranged from their son for 20 years over his playing ball on Sabbath!0
Also, another recent story in Review? where a sports player with a successful record that could have gone far, is refusing to play on Sabbath.
Is it not possible that he has lost the opportunity to be a personal witness for Christ and has chosen to be a witness to Sabbath? It does seem that the SDA church HAS made Sabbath such an identifying mark that Christ is all but forgotten. After all, Christ never endorsed Sabbath-keeping. He only said that it was made for man. And to be truthful this entire world and all that in it is made for man!
Nor did the NT Christian church ever endorse, commanD, nor instruct Christians to observe Sabbath. As anyone with knowledge of Judaism, no one was allowed to observe Sabbath or any of the distinctive dietary laws until he had first been circumcised. Why do Adventists selectively choose certain Jewish laws as relevant today, while others are considered obsolete?
No one has yet answered these questions. Who will go for it?
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No one has yet answered these questions. Who will go for it?
Ah Elaine, I have answered those questions several times.
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The SDA confusion over the Sabbath can be assuaged through a correct understanding of the NT Sabbath. Hebrews 4 and 5 refer to the seventh day:
7 He again fixes a certain day, Today, saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
Today and Sabbath rest refer to the same thing. So when is the today of Hebrews 4? The answer is found in chapter 5:
Heb 5:5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself so as to become a high priest, but He who said to Him, YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU
Today refers to the period after the coronation of Christ as high priest. This took place in heaven after the ascension of Christ. It was a major event, taking up several verses in Revelation Rev 4:5; 5:6. The seven spirits of God are first before the throne. They are then upon the Lamb. This is a vision of Christ's coronation as high priest.
While I am not opposed to observance of the weekly Sabbath, Hebrews 4 is not a passage which supports legalistic Sabbath observance.
Message edited by Hansen on January 01, 2010
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Bob said: Maybe I am dull or just don't get what Tom is saying.
Tom said: All Laodiceans have a hard time comprehending Gospel doctrine. This is why they are judged as blind and wretched by Heaven, needing to repent.
So the last church is the most “dull” and incorrect. They just “don’t get” the Gospel or understand how to read the Bible correctly.
The point here is to understand what the Bible, and specifically Jesus and the apostles, are saying about the law and the Sabbath. The opinions of all others, including myself, don’t count for much.
Bob asked: Are you supporting a Gospel need to keep a 24 hour period holy or recognizing that Christ satisfied the Sabbath in Himself?
Tom said: There should be no doubt that Christ obeyed and fulfilled the law on our behalf. This is how we can be declared forgiven and considered righteous. But Christ is not the Sabbath, much less the Lord of himself. And it makes no sense to try and define the NC Sabbath in such a spiritualized, forced, and allegorized manner.
Moreover, it is a mistake to view the Old Covenant Sabbath in the same manner as the New Covenant Sabbath. In other words, while it is correct to talk about Sabbath keeping in the OT, it does not work for the NT Sabbath. They are very different. One does not “keep” the New Covenant Sabbath, but rather one can acknowledge it, and use it to do good as taught by Jesus.
All are free to make the Sabbath a day of study, praise, and fellowship, or to do that in the morning and then go to work in the afternoon at the Car Wash, -- without sinning. All are free to choose their own behavior and activities on the Gospel Sabbath.
The Gospel Sabbath is not to be “kept” or observed as if it were the OC legalistic “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the Jews. Don’t travel too far, or cook food, or do this, or do that. Forget it! Away with this OC childishness. This is great error that the SDA’s have embraced with both hands.
In fact, this is why all SDA’s are having a hard time understanding the Gospel Sabbath. They can’t wrap their legalistic minds around such a strange and unregulated doctrine. Which is the same problem that the Jews had with Paul’s Gospel. Where was the law? Where are the rules? They wanted the comfort of their law, which they thought they could keep.
This also explains why the Gentiles more easily embraced the Gospel while the Jews held back and doubted. The law was greater than the Gospel, the Jews thought, and so they clung to the past and repudiated the Gospel.
But the Gentiles had no such tradition or conflict, and thus they more easily embraced the Gospel.
Don said: I think I see the difference in the two Sabbaths Tom addresses. It is kind of like two kinds of tithing.
Tom said: There are not two types of tithing. There is not an OC and a NC version as there is for the Sabbath. Moreover, there is no principle or doctrine in the church that supports New Covenant Tithing. So I don’t think you understand things clearly as yet.
Don said: The weekly Sabbath is a wonderful habit; a gift of God but, if I turn the Sabbath into a whip or lash, the gift of God is made a sacrilege.
Tom said: False doctrine should never be called “wonderful.” Such praise must be reserved for what is true and correct. OC Sabbath keeping in the church is a very bad habit and practice. It is false doctrine, just like Sunday keeping. They are both wrong.
The Jews turned the Sabbath into a cruel obsession that reflected very poorly on God. Jesus came and corrected this false view, even as he laid down the theological principles that would forever change the Sabbath and destroy tithing at the same time.
Jesus observation that the OC priests were never subject to the restrictions and rules that covered the OC Sabbath is the key to comprehending the NC Sabbath.
Matt. 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.
Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
Matt. 12:3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions,
Matt. 12:4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?
Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
Matt. 12:7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE 2COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Just as the OC Priests were allowed to break the rules, and work on the Sabbath, and eat forbidden food, etc., so too the NC priests in the NT.
All are Priests in the NC, and thus the OC Sabbath rules do not apply to any Christian, and can never apply. Thus the NC Priests are allowed to “break the Sabbath” and yet still be innocent.
Such a Priestly exemption, as well as this different configuration, destroys tithe (and greatly changes the Sabbath) because there are no minority priests to be supported by the majority of non-priests.
ALL ARE PRIESTS. All are equal. All are exempt from the OC Sabbath rules. Which means tithing, and the OC Sabbath are not possible in the church.
BOTH tithing and the OC Sabbath of Moses are forbidden in the church.
Sharing has replaced tithing, and the more liberal NC Sabbath of Jesus, should have been embraced by the church. But this has not yet taken place. The twin errors of Sunday worship and Old Covenant Sabbath keeping have not yet given way to the truth about the Gospel Sabbath.
Don said: So with tithing. First, its impossible to tithe like the Jews did; too many differences.
Tom said: Correct! Good for you.
So why do the SDA’s try to tithe like the Jews? They have tried the impossible and it has blown up in their face for all to see. There can be no tithing in the NC, much less this unequal division between Pastors and Laity. The SDA structure and organization is all wrong. The Denomination must be restructured and re-organized.
Tithe is not part of the Moral law. Nor are the Pastors to be treated like they are Levitical Priests in the church. Tithe, unlike the Sabbath of the Moral law that Jesus reformed, does NOT have a place in the church. Which is why you will not find one NT example of any Christian practicing tithe in the church. It never happened.
Don said: It is also impossible to keep the Sabbath like the Jews did. Theirs was a union and church and state. Nehemiah was within his constitutional rights to pull beards, etc. Not today, in America.
Tom said: Correct.
So why are the SDA’s trying so hard? Why are they saying that unless one observes and keeps the Sabbath of Moses, they cannot be saved? Why are they encouraging their members to sue their employers and force them to get special privileges, as if it were a sin to work on the Sabbath in the New Covenant?
While Jesus and the apostles did not remove the law or the Sabbath, (much less endorse Sunday), the church has had a difficult time understanding the Gospel.
Not one church or denomination today understands the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath correctly. Least of all the SDA’s. They claim to be the Sabbath Experts, but they have turned out to be a bunch of Sabbath Fools that have no idea what they are doing. Which is to be expected from any group that keeps repudiating the Gospel.
Don said: The Sabbath is a wonderful weekly gift; an idea born in heaven and borne to humanity.
Tom said: The Sabbath was officially given to the Jews. But they misunderstood it and turned it into a day of religious oppression. Jesus REFORMED the OC Sabbath into a NC doctrine in the Gospels. THIS IS THE SABBATH FOR THE CHURCH. This is the Sabbath that is to be given to the world, along with the Gospel.
Don said: Tithing is the same. Out of chaos comes order in both cases; the chaos of time and the chaos of finances. The Sabbath and Tithe brings order to the spheres.
Tom said: Wrong! Tithing is not a Moral law. It was not permanent, nor was it ever to be practiced by the Gentiles. While Jesus teaches the Sabbath was made for all humanity, including and especially the church, he does not take the same view of tithe, and neither does the apostles. (The Levites were banished from the church, so too was tithing.)
Thus we see the apostles’ behavior on the Sabbath, and their respect for it—to a point. But we never see any Christian, Jew or Gentile, paying tithe or receiving tithe or storing tithe. So the Gospel Sabbath is there in the NT as an active doctrine, but not tithe. Never tithe.
So there is a NC Sabbath in the NT, but no tithing whatsoever. There can be no tithe or OC Sabbath keeping in the church. Period.
Elaine said: I'll agree that it is impossible to keep the Sabbath like the Jews did. But then it is impossible for Gentiles to keep a Sabbath that was never given to anyone but the Jews!
Tom said: While the OC Sabbath was given to the Jews, not so with the NC Sabbath. Which is why you will see Paul inviting a Gentile town to come hear his Gospel lectures on the Sabbath day.
Acts 13:42 As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath.
Acts 13:43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.
Acts 13:44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.
Paul does not denounce or hide from the Sabbath. No. He uses the Sabbath to market and preach the Gospel. Thus he shows the Gentiles that the Sabbath is associated and connected to the Gospel, and the teachings of Jesus. (He did not say it had been changed to Sunday, either.)
For Paul, to preach the Gospel on the Sabbath was correct Sabbath behavior, but the Jews would ever agree. They thought he had gone mad. Thus he was breaking the OC Sabbath rules, but he did not care because those rules had been changed by Jesus, even removed. There was now a different Sabbath for the church to understand.
Elaine said: Adventists surely have tried to institute Sabbath no-no's from the beginning, and still do: no baths after sundown, no cooking, no eating out, no playing sports (see my recent story of an SDA couple who was estranged from their son for 20 years over his playing ball on Sabbath!
Tom said: The SDA’s correctly understood that the popular Sunday Sabbath was wrong. They also learned, from the SDB’s, that only the 7th Day can be the correct Sabbath. So far so good.
But they misunderstood the difference between the OC and the NC Sabbath. While they are both on the 7th day, they are very different. As different as the law and the Gospel can be.
The SDA’s have made a great error to think that the OC Sabbath can become NC doctrine in the church. This is forbidden in the NT. Thus the SDA’s must repent for their incorrect doctrines about the Sabbath, church finance, and food laws. They must confess their many errors and admit that they have been blindly playing the role of the Judaizers all these years.
Elaine said: Also, another recent story in (Review?) where a sports player with a successful record that could have gone far, is refusing to play on Sabbath.
Tom said: The OC Sabbath has ruined many lives. The NC Sabbath allows the youth to play ball on the Sabbath, even as it allows the adults to be employed on the Sabbath to feed their families.
The NC Sabbath is VERY different from what the SDA’s teach. Paul would have found a way to preach the Gospel to the crowd after the BB game, if not before it started. No one is to judge what any Christian/ Priest does on the Sabbath. This is a great and true feature of the NC Sabbath.
Elaine said: Is it not possible that he has lost the opportunity to be a personal witness for Christ and has chosen to be a witness to Sabbath?
Tom said: The OC will destroy the hopes and dreams of all that try to walk such a legalistic path. Those Gentiles that follow the OC law in order to please God, like the SDA’s or the RC’s, are not only making their lives very unhappy and difficult, they have also lost Eternal Life.
Elaine said: It does seem that the SDA church HAS made the Sabbath such an identifying mark that Christ is all but forgotten.
Tom said: The SDA’s fell into legalism very early. Just like the apostolic church. When the time came for Reform and correction, in 1888, the leaders acted like the Jews and went insane against the Gospel and the Spirit. They exiled Ellen White and treated her like dirt, even as they remain very dishonest about her role and her views today.
The SDA’s have gone bad. Just like the Jews. They are as wrong and rebellious as were the first century Jews that killed Christ and attacked the infant church. There only hope it to confess and repent. Nothing else will save them.
Let all who want to understand the Gospel Sabbath read the words of Jesus in the Gospels about the Sabbath. Here is the source of the NC Sabbath. Read what the highest authority in the church says about the Sabbath and understand it is very different from what the SDA’s promote.
So all Laodiceans must make a choice between following the clear teaching of Jesus and the apostles about the NC Sabbath, or the various false traditions that range from Sunday to SDA style Sabbath keeping.
Elaine said: After all, Christ never endorsed Sabbath-keeping. He only said that it was made for man. And to be truthful this entire world and all that in it is made for man!
Tom said: Jesus repudiated and condemned the Sabbath of the Pharisees. At the same time, he defended, promoted, and endorsed in the name of God, a very different Sabbath that was based on the Priesthood of all believers.
The Sabbath of Jesus is the correct Sabbath for the Church. But who today even knows such a doctrine? Not the SDA’s. Not the Sunday keepers.
So who knew that there was a special Sabbath for the church at the end of time? There is. But the SDA’s got it wrong.
Elaine said: Nor did the NT Christian church ever endorse, command, nor instruct Christians to observe Sabbath.
Tom said: First off, the NC Sabbath is not to be “observed” as if it were the OC Sabbath. This is what that SDA’s have done wrong. This is why they make such a big deal about not working on the Sabbath, and why they think they have the moral right to sue any employer that will not give them Saturday off.
In fact, as more information becomes public about the Gospel Sabbath, many SDA’s cannot believe their eyes or ears. Like the Pharisees in the Gospels, the SDA’s think it is a great sin to work on the Sabbath and thus anyone who says otherwise must be insane. The Sabbath means work is forbidden. All SDA’s know this.
Here is a recent SDA response to the NC Sabbath:
I do not agree with the mindset that Jesus ok'd us in the New Testament to work on the Sabbath. Not one single passage of scripture teaches this one iota! I would recommend that you repent from twisting or distorting the word of God, lest the curse promised by the Almighty fall on you which falls upon anyone that’s does such wickedness in his eyes.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … bath-2.htm
Most SDA’s view the Sabbath through the eyes of the OC and the “distorted” Gospel of the Judaizers in Galatians. They overlook what Jesus is really teaching about the Sabbath, which is the OPPOSITE of what the SDA’s claim.
Jesus clearly teaches that it is not a sin to work on the Sabbath, or to eat out when traveling on the Sabbath, etc. and thus he refutes the false, and Old Covenant minded view of the SDA’s.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him,
How pitiful is it that the SDA’s have no idea what Jesus is really saying about the Sabbath? They don’t seem to understand what any of the NT writers are saying about anything. Paul is way beyond their comprehension.
They think, “there is not a single passage” that promotes a working Sabbath, (not the best term) and that such an interpretation is wicked and very wrong. But the Gospels are full of Jesus’ New Covenant instruction about the Sabbath, even to the point that he expects the Sabbath to still be in force at the end of time.
Silly SDA’s. They obviously have not read the scriptures very closely or correctly. They don’t understand the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath. Pity.
Elaine said: As anyone with knowledge of Judaism, no one was allowed to observe Sabbath or any of the distinctive dietary laws until he had first been circumcised. Why do Adventists selectively choose certain Jewish laws as relevant today, while others are considered obsolete?
Tom said: First off, the Jews did allow a non-circumcised group of Gentiles to worship with them on the Sabbath. They were called the God fearers.
Acts 13:43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.
Acts 17:17 So he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day with those who happened to be present.
Second, it is not easy to understand the difference between the Old and New Covenants. If it were the NT story would read very differently.
In fact, the greatest of all apostles, Paul, started out as a defender of the OC Sabbath and Law. He was a great enemy and persecutor of the Gospel. Then he changed his mind and joined those he had declared so wrong. Proving how difficult and confusing this period of transition was for the early church.
The book of Galatians further underscores this difficulty as it shows how the top leaders became divided over how the Two Covenants related one to another. Had this debate not taken place, the church today would have no hope of ever understanding the Gospel correctly. As it is, they hardly understand.
So this is very difficult material to master. And the Laodiceans have done the worst possible job at understanding any of this. Which is why they are so strongly and universally condemned by the LM, which is the real PAJ of the church.
The NC Sabbath is very different from the OC Sabbath. The SDA’s have embraced the latter, when the former is what there were supposed to be promoting and teaching.
This is not easy material. But it can be understood. The Gospel is clear for those that honestly seek the facts. But for those who want to defend tradition, and remain blind, nothing will make sense but their cultic delusions.
In conclusion, it is time for the SDA’s to return to the serious pursuit of truth. It is time for them to stop pretending that they are without error and thus have no need to repent and reform. This is a great delusion that has no basis in fact.
The SDA’s are full of error and false doctrine, starting with the Sabbath. Their greatest doctrine.
I suggest that all study the Sabbath instruction of Jesus before trying to blindly defend the errors of the Old Covenant, SDA Sabbath.
Jesus is the head of the Church and the Lord of the Sabbath. All Christians must follow his Word and obey his instruction. Even the SDA’s!
Tom Norris for Sabbath Reform in the SDA church…
Last edited by tom_norris (02-11-10 3:46 pm)
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Tom, because someone doesn't understand Tom Norris doesn't make them fit into your Laodician catagory, or their traits.
Sometimes Tom, when I read your stuff, you don't seem to care if one person, a few or many understand your gripes with the SDAs. That's OK. But please don't take self deprecating remarks and use it to discribe the whole Laodician group.
The fact that you can't understand what at least four people have said to you about Christ being our New Covenant Sabbath, could say something about your discernment also, but I won't go there. Just respect what I have asked, thanks.
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Bob said: Tom, because someone doesn't understand Tom Norris doesn't make them fit into your Laodicean category, or their traits.
Tom said: You misunderstand. The term Laodicean applies to all in the last age of the church, including the SDA’s.
We are all Laodiceans that have been judged (in the PAJ/LM) to be spiritually blind and naked, as well as arrogant and very wrong about the Gospel Story. Heaven has spoken on this matter, and there is little left to say but admit the situation and repent.
There are only two types of Laodiceans: those that have not repented and those that have. The SDA’s are in the former category, along with most all others at this point. Unless they repent and reform, all in Laodicea are doomed.
Do not misunderstand, the SDA’s are no worse or better than any others as far as heaven is concerned. Every Church and denomination is full of error, myth, and false doctrine. That’s why they all need to repent. Not just the SDA’s.
Moreover, the traits of the last church have been articulated by heaven for all to see in the LM. Don’t blame me for pointing them out. They have universal application, as does the rest of the Pre-Advent Judgment of the other six churches.
Bob said: Sometimes Tom, when I read your stuff, you don't seem to care if one person, a few or many understand your gripes with the SDA’s. That's OK. But please don't take self-deprecating remarks and use it to describe the whole Laodicean group.
Tom said: I want people to understand the Gospel and the facts about church history and prophecy, (especially the Three Angels Messages). So I do care.
I want everyone to know where the SDA’s are correct and where they are wrong. And what the Advent Movement must do in order to go forward and complete their unique eschatological mission.
In the last days, every church and denomination, whether Catholic or Protestant, or a cult like the Mormons or JW’s, is wrong about the Gospel. Including the SDA’s. None are praised in the PAJ/LM of the church, even as all are condemned.
Of course each group has their own particular myths, errors, and traditions to repudiate, including a false Gospel and the wrong Sabbath and many other things as well. But all are equally wrong and guilty. Including all those that have embraced Sunday or thought that Jesus is the NC Sabbath
So don’t shoot the messenger. All those that presently claim to be Christians are very confused and wrong about salvation and eschatology, etc. That’s why they all must repent and reform. That why the PAJ is so harsh and uncompromising. Don’t blame me.
Bob said: The fact that you can't understand what at least four people have said to you about Christ being our New Covenant Sabbath, could say something about your discernment also, but I won't go there. Just respect what I have asked, thanks.
Tom said: Bob, I do understand what people are saying about this point. So this is not the problem as you think.
The problem is that I also understand the NT, and it does not support this idea that Jesus is the Sabbath. While Jesus claimed to be many, many things, he never once claimed to be the Sabbath. Nor did anyone ever refer to him in this manner.
So this is the end of the matter. Jesus does not teach that he is the Sabbath. So on whose authority do you base this doctrine? How dare you place words and doctrines in the mouth of Jesus and pretend that this is what should have been written in the scripture?
Sorry Bob, I make it a point to “disrespect” absurd and false doctrine. This is what you and many others are promoting with this idea that “Christ is the NC Sabbath.” It is utter nonsense and gibberish.
This fanciful teaching about Jesus being our Sabbath has no real basis in the Gospels, church history, or logic. Jesus NEVER made this claim, and neither did his apostles or the post-apostolic church.
So it doesn’t matter if 4 million people agree, “Jesus is the Gospel Sabbath.” It is still false and silly doctrine because the NT does not teach this view of Jesus or the Sabbath.
Do YOU understand?
I am sure that for some this “Allegorical” or “Metaphorical” Sabbath” seems like a good solution to the confusing Sunday / Sabbath debate. But false doctrine can never be used to solve any theological problem.
This fictional Sabbath is not an option, much less a solution. Jesus never viewed himself as the Sabbath. NEVER. So Bob, repent and give up this mythical, spiritualized Sabbath.
Here are a number of links that discuss this view. They are not very persuasive, much less logical.
http://www.thegracetabernacle.org/studi … bbath.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Sabbath.html
http://www.warrencampdesign.com/bakeryB … h-rest.pdf
http://www.granoladelights.com/blog/?p=8
http://www.growthingod.org.uk/Sabbath.htm
http://www.calvin.edu/worship/stories/sabbath_rest.php
http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/chr-sab/chr-sab3.htm
http://arminiantoday.blogspot.com/2009/ … -rest.html
http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-t … bath-rest/
http://www.gentlybroken.com/ultimaterest.html
http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/sabbath/principle.htm
**JESUS NOT THE SABBATH**
The Sabbath is defined as the 7th day of the week. It is a featured part of the Jewish law and culture, being found in the center of 10 Commandments.
By contrast, Jesus was not a “day” but a Jewish man who referred to himself as the Son of Man. He was also self-described as the Lord of the Sabbath, but never the “Son of the Sabbath” or “lord of himself.”
The Sabbath is a 24-hour weekly period, but Jesus is a man, who claimed to be the Son of God. A person is not a “day”, much less the Sabbath day.
Gen. 1:5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
Gen. 2:2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
Gen. 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
Gen. 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Luke 19:10 “For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
Jesus is the Messiah; (But not the Sabbath.)
Luke 9:18 And it happened that while He was praying alone, the disciples were with Him, and He questioned them, saying, “Who do the people say that I am?”
Luke 9:19 They answered and said, “John the Baptist, and others say Elijah; but others, that one of the prophets of old has risen again.”
Luke 9:20 And He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Peter answered and said, “The Christ of God.”
Note that no people thought Jesus was the Sabbath. None. They all defined him as being like a person, not a day.
Acts 17:3 explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ.”
The NT shows that Jesus the Christ claimed to be many things things, even as he answered to many names, like Jesus the Nazarene. But never did he claim to be Jesus the Sabbath or answer to someone calling him the Sabbath.
John 18:5 They answered Him, “Jesus the Nazarene.” He *said to them, “I am He.”
Bob, it should be self-evident that Jesus is not the Sabbath, or any other day of the week. I suggest that you read the Gospel Story more carefully and literally in order to understand how Jesus is defined, and how he defines the Sabbath.
If Jesus wanted us to believe that he was the Sabbath it would have been a simple sentence for him to speak. After all, he often referred to himself by many names.
In fact, Jesus claimed to be so many different things, metaphorically and spiritually, it should be a very simple thing for him to say that he is also the Sabbath, - IF that is what he wanted to say.
But alas, Jesus makes no such claim. Why? Because he never thought of himself as the Sabbath and neither did the Jews or the Church. There is no such doctrine as Jesus is the Sabbath. It is false and unsupported by the evidence.
To prove this point, let’s take a look at this list of names for Jesus and see if you can find one where he claims to be the Sabbath? This is an important exercise for you and the other 4 supporters of this view.
Why?
Because if there is no such passage from Jesus, then there is no such doctrine. Let’s take a look:
Jesus claims to be any things: (But never the Sabbath).
Jesus claims to be food and drink, bread and wine. (But not the Sabbath.)
John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
John 6:51 “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
Jesus is our Servant; (But not the Sabbath.)
Luke 22:27 “For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.
Jesus is the LIGHT of the world. (But not the Sabbath.)
John 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
Jesus is the Good Shepherd and the Door to the Sheep Pen; (But never the Sabbath.)
John 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
Jesus is the Way, the truth and the Life; (But not the Sabbath.)
John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Jesus is the vine; (But not the Sabbath.)
John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
Jesus is called Teacher & Lord, (But never the Sabbath.)
John 13:13 “You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am.
Jesus is King: (But not the Sabbath)
John 18:37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?”
Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
Jesus is Lord of the Reformed, Gospel Sabbath; (But he is not THE Sabbath.)
Luke 6:5 “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
____________
Note that the prelude to the Sabbath Reforms in Luke are preceded by Jesus teaching about wine.
Luke 5:38 “But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.
The Gospel Sabbath can only exist in the Gospel wineskin of the church.
Jesus is our peace, (but not the Sabbath.)
John 14:27 “Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.
Eph. 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
Col. 3:15 Let the peace of Christ 1rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in bone body; and be thankful.
2Th. 3:16 Now may the Lord of peace Himself continually grant you peace in every circumstance. The Lord be with you all!
No where in the Gospels is Jesus referred to as the Sabbath, or as our Sabbath rest. So it is way too late to make up such doctrines. If Jesus is the NC Sabbath, then the NT must clearly say so. But it does not say any such thing. Neither does Jesus.
Jesus Gives Rest, and Reforms the Sabbath
Matt. 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
Matt. 11:29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
Here Jesus says he is “gentle and humble” and that he will give rest to those that ask, but he is not claiming to be our Sabbath rest. In fact, this passage is the intro to Matt 12, where Jesus REFORMS the Sabbath doctrine.
Matt. 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.
Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
Matt. 12:3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions,
Matt. 12:4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?
Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
Matt. 12:7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Matt. 12:9 Departing from there, He went into their synagogue.
Matt. 12:10 And a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned 1Jesus, asking, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?” — so that they might accuse Him.
Jesus in not Lord of himself, as if he were the Sabbath, but Lord of the 24 hour, 7th day. He alone, as the Son of Man, a Messianic term, will explain how this famous Jewish day is to be defined, understood, and interpreted for the church. All those that follow Christ will follow his Gospel Sabbath. They will not follow the Pharisees or others.
Jesus was never thought of, or called, the Sabbath. Nor did he ever refer to himself as the Sabbath.
So why do people pretend otherwise? Why do they test the Sprit and ignore the Word?
Besides, why would anyone try and confuse the doctrine of the Sabbath with the person of Jesus Christ? On what basis can this be done?
Does the NT teach that Jesus is the New Covenant Sabbath?
No.
Does Jesus ever refer to himself in such a manner?
Hardly.
Jesus uses many metaphors and symbols to define himself. He is represented as bread, wine, and water, as well as the Passover lamb, and on and on. But never, never, never the Sabbath. There is no such passage in the Gospels, and thus this idea is a fraud.
Jesus never referred to himself as the Sabbath. He is not the Sabbath, even though he has taken full charge of owning and reforming it; refuting the religious experts in the process.
**The Two Sabbaths**
Many fail to understand that there are two very different and opposing Sabbaths in the Old Testament. The first and most well known Sabbath is for the 11 Jewish tribes, while the second was for the working Sabbath of the Levites. Thus there were two, unequal, and even opposing Sabbaths that were both valid at the same time. (Who knew?)
Jesus was a Jew, born under the law. He was not a Levitical priest. So he had no Sabbath exemptions as they did. Thus he had to fulfill the OC Sabbath as an ordinary Jew for most of his life. He had to follow the rules and regulations of Moses for an ordinary Jew.
However, as Jesus launched his public ministry, he did so with a very different Sabbath doctrine. One that was based only on the second, priestly type of Sabbath. Which he then made applicable to all in the church.
Thus Jesus promoted the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. It was a New Covenant doctrine that had no restrictions on work as the SDA’s and others teach. It is very different from the OC Sabbath. So much so that it horrified the Jews and led them to kill Christ.
Jesus proclaimed a Gospel Sabbath that was free from the many rules and regulations, including work, that was imposed by the non-priestly Old Covenant Sabbath. Now that all were going to become priests of God, all would become exempt from the OC Sabbath rules, just like the priestly, “schoolmaster” Sabbath.
While Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath Law as a Jew, he also reformed the Sabbath for the church. He did this as its Lord, Christ, and Savior. This is why the Sabbath is so prominently featured and debated by Jesus in each of the Gospels. It is the Lord’s Day. It is a special but very different day from the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Jews and SDA’s.
Let all SDA’s repent of their Old Covenant Sabbath, as well as this Levitical idea that the Pastors are like the Levites and thus the laity should pay them a tithe, and empower a hierarchy to rule over them.
There can be NO Old Covenant Sabbath keeping or Tithe paying in the church.
Why? Because all are priests, and ALL are exempt from the OC Sabbath rules, as well as from Levitical tithing. Which is why Jesus embraces all manner of activity, including work on the Sabbath and never once tithing. The Levitical Sabbath has been abolished, along with the all the Levites and their system of tithing.
There is the Gospel Sabbath for the church. It is the 7th day, Lord’s Day. It is not Sunday, nor is it the Old Covenant Sabbath, with all its rules, regulations, and traditions of the Jews or SDA’s.
Jesus teaches a very different Sabbath from that of Moses. Which is why the religious leaders became so angry and murderous towards him.
He purposefully broke the rules about not working or causing anyone else to work. Why? Because Jesus teaches a very different Sabbath, even as Paul underscores that each are free to utilize the Sabbath as they see best. Not how the religious rulers or legalistic minded see best.
Religious Leaders Wrong About the Sabbath
Note: The religious leaders of every paradigm have made errors about the Sabbath. The Jews and Jesus had opposing views and heated debates over the Sabbath. This led directly to his death on the cross.
In the apostolic church, the Judaizers insisted on strict Sabbath observance according to the Law of Moses. Peter and James embraced this view until Paul corrected them in public for all to see. (See Galatians).
While many think Paul completely repudiates the Sabbath, he does no such thing. Rather, he repudiates the “schoolmaster” or Old Covenant Sabbath, even as he acknowledges the very liberal, working view, which reflects the teaching of Jesus.
By the second century, Sunday became established as the Sabbath of the post apostolic church and so it has been ever since. When the Reformation arrived, the Sunday Sabbath was retained, even as some went off to promote the 7th day Sabbath.
This eventually led to the SDB’s giving the Sabbath to the Millerites, and this generic doctrine became adopted by the SDA’s as the primary focus of the 3rd Angels Message.
The SDA’s were all about the Sabbath. They viewed Sabbath Reform, (their term) as the final conflict between the beast power and those that defended the Law of God. Thus the Sabbath and the law meant everything to them, even as they soon fell into Judaism, just like the apostolic church.
While the SDA’s were correct to repudiate Sunday and embrace the 7th day Sabbath, they actually developed the wrong Sabbath doctrine. Because they failed to understand the Gospel, they ended up embracing the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Pharisees; not the one that Jesus and Paul teach in the NT.
This is shocking but true.
**THE SDA’S HAVE THE WRONG SABBATH**
The SDA’s have embraced the Old Covenant Sabbath of Moses and the Judaizers. They need to repent of this great error and understand the true Gospel Sabbath of Christ. It is still a weekly Seventh-day doctrine, but not at all like they teach.
Let all SDA’s study what Jesus, the head of the church, teaches about the Sabbath in the NT. Let all understand the New Covenant Sabbath, and rejoice at the mercy of God, even as all repent for their false and legalistic views. (Including this nonsense that Jesus is the Sabbath).
Here is some additional study material;
Luther on the Sabbath
http://www.ondoctrine.com/2lut0907.htm
Sabbatarianism
http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/sabbatar.htm
Sabbath Rules (Old Covenant)
http://www.teshuvah.com/articles/shabbat/sabbath1.htm
A Strange Version of the Sabbath
http://www.babylonforsaken.com/newcovenantsabbath.html
NCT and the Sabbath
http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/h … cs/nct.htm
Should Christians Keep the Sabbath?
http://www.bibletopics.com/BIBLESTUDY/122.htm
http://www.gotquestions.org/Saturday-Sunday.html
Mike e-mailed and said: I read a book on the Sabbath while at seminary. I think it was called A Day For Healing. What I got out of it perhaps was not intended by its author. It showed the Sabbath controversies and how this led to Christ's death.
What I noticed was there seemed to be a progression. 1st his disciples are accused of harvesting and He defends them. 2nd He himself violates their customs when he performs non-life threatening healings. 3rd and lastly, He commands the lame man to take up his bed and walk. It was then that they decided he had to be killed.
So he defends, then violates and then commands to violate.
I am enjoying what you have written and whole-heartedly agree with your intent.
Tom said: I find it amazing that it has taken so long to uncover the genuine Sabbath of the Gospels. I have been an SDA all my life and have never heard such a concept except from Dr. Ford.
How could the SDA’s be so wrong about the Sabbath for so long? It is very clear that working on the Sabbath in the Gospel age is not a sin as the SDA’s teach. Jesus is the Lord of the NC Sabbath, NOT the SDA’s. They are very confused and very wrong about most everything.
How tragic that the very man that understood how to explain the Gospel Sabbath to the church and the world was slandered and exiled by the SDA Pharisees. Dr. Ford was treated by the leaders as if he were an evil and dishonest man, when they were the evil doers and unbelievers.
No doubt the Adventists would have sent Dr. Ford to the cross for Sabbath breaking if they had the power. Why? Because the SDA’s have acted just like the first century Jews that rejected the Gospel and killed their Christ. They have a very wrong view of the law and the Sabbath, even as they refuse to understand the Gospel and repent.
Today, thanks to a remarkable increase in knowledge and technology, anyone can find out the truth about the Gospel Sabbath. It is now a simple matter to look up the issues and discover the truth about the Sabbath, tithe, and everything else.
No longer will the SDA’s be able to hide behind their double-talk and dishonest propaganda. Their many false doctrines have been discovered for all to see, and now there is no turning back from Adventist Reform. This is the only path for the Advent Movement.
There must be major repentance, reform, and re-organization for SDA’s.
The Advent Movement must go forward and develop the 4th Angels Message, which will feature the 7th day Gospel Sabbath as well as credible, contemporary, eschatology.
There is no room in the last message for error or myth. It is time for the genuine Gospel to enlighten the 21st century world, and prepare all for the great tribulation that is so near.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (02-11-10 4:01 pm)
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Tom,
Take a breath.
I have not read all the references you posted above, as to the explanation of Jesus being the Sabbath so I don't know what exactly they say. However, I don't think any one is saying that Jesus IS the Sabbath. The point is, according to Hebrews 4, that Jesus provides the ultimate SABBATH REST.
As the book of Hebrews was meant for the Jews who had their elaborate theological system that included ritual and festivals, the writer of Hebrews is pointing out that all that the Hebrew system contained was merely A SHADOW of the reality, which is in Christ - his life, death, and resurrection. To reach beyond that is to worship the shadow instead of the reality.
I'm sure I don't need to repeat the outline for Hebrews to you. The book clearly shows how Christ is the reality beyond the shadows in every aspect of Hebrew life and worship.
As the Jews prided themselves of having DIRECT AND SPECIAL REVELATION directly from God, Hebrews points out, Christ was a better revelation. Hebrews then goes on to claim Christ's superiority to angels; to Moses; to Aaronic Priests; and to the Hebrew concept of SACRIFICES. Among all these, Hebrews claims Christ's superiority over the Sabbath REST - rest from work - rest from the work the Jews had made the corner stone of their entire religious system.
Their entire approach to God was one of work embodied in their rituals and their services. Hebrews simply points out that all that holy activity was only to point forward to Christ who gives the ultimate rest from all that frantic ritual. The irony is, that SDA theology takes those verses from the book of Hebrews and demands more superfluous holy activity in the form of Sabbath keeping, as it claims that there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God vs.9 - interpreting this to mean GOD'S PEOPLE STILL NEED TO KEEP THE WEEKLY SABBATH. This misses the entire point of Heb. 4 and the intent of the entire book of Hebrews, which is calling God's people out of the shadows of ritual and into the reality of Christ.
This is not to say we can't keep the Sabbath. As Paul says in another place, some keep one day above the rest while others keep all days alike. We need to do what seems right for us; but don't imagine that this is required by God for our salvation.
There is no specific 24 hour period called the Sabbath. Those 24 hours are stretched out around the globe. The only place there could have been a specific 24 hour period of time was directly over Jerusalem. If the Sabbath is meant to be a 24 hour period in every individual's life, then OK, but that's not what the OT indicates. There seems to have been a specific 24 hour period of time that is HOLY. By the time this holy time reaches California, it's long past in Jerusalem. So it's not the a SPECIFIC period of time.
As the OT saw the Sabbath as a memorial to creation and a memorial to the exodus Deut., so the NT Sabbath could conceivably be a memorial to re-creation in Christ. That's cool.
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Tom, and the SDAs would claim you are the one that needs repenting, and so it goes..... As to your point that Jesus is not the fulfillment of the Sabbath in person but in delivering it, note his words:
Matthew 11:28 Amplified Bible
28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy-laden and overburdened, and I will cause you to rest. [I will ease and relieve and refresh your souls.
A 24 hour rest period may give physical rest but only forgiveness of sin may give rest to the soul. The Sabbath of which you speak, can not do what you claim.
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Sirje said: Tom, I don't think any one is saying that Jesus IS the Sabbath. The point is, according to Hebrews 4, that Jesus provides the ultimate SABBATH REST.
Tom said: Those that claim “Jesus is the Sabbath” are doing so in order to opt out of the Sunday versus Sabbath debate. These anti-Sabbatarians run to Hebrews 4 in order to embrace what they claim is an allegorical Sabbath. They think they have found a passage that lifts them far above the Sabbath debate, which they claim to have solved.
Such amateur hermeneutics is laughable for a number of reasons. The first being that the word Sabbath in Heb 4 is very different from any other such word in the Bible. It does not mean a spiritualized or allegorical Sabbath, rather it says that there is weekly, 7th day Sabbath for the church to understand in the future.
http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/SA/SA_sabbathrest.pdf
Those that want to understand what the NT says about the Sabbath must resist the temptation to indulge in the fraud of proof texting. This is a very dishonest method where one searches for texts to support a pre-determined view, while at the same time ignoring other passages that also speak to the issue.
Those that run to Hebrews 4, Colossians 2 and Romans 14 to support their anti-Sabbatarian views have only confused themselves further. They have overlooked the primary Sabbath passages in all four Gospels that define, explain, and demonstrate the New Covenant Sabbath for the church.
So not only do the anti-Sabbatarians misunderstand Heb 4: 9, and Colossians 2: 16, they have also failed to locate the proper passages where Jesus and the apostles explain the genuine Gospel Sabbath. Which is the real point that must be understood.
I find it sad that the SDA Community is so fractured, blind, and confused that they can’t even agree on the doctrine of the Sabbath. They can’t even figure out how to honestly study this or any doctrine for that matter.
Sirje said: As the book of Hebrews was meant for the Jews who had their elaborate theological system that included ritual and festivals, the writer of Hebrews is pointing out that all that the Hebrew system contained was merely A SHADOW of the reality, which is in Christ - his life, death, and resurrection. To reach beyond that is to worship the shadow instead of the reality.
Tom said: First off, we don’t even know who wrote the book of Hebrews. But we do know who wrote the Gospels, and we also know that these four books written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, feature the NC Sabbath teachings of Jesus, the head of the church and its preeminent theologian, prophet, and apostle.
So Hebrews is not the primary book to understand the Gospel Sabbath. All must go to the Gospels for such information.
Moreover, the Greek text in question, clearly says that there is a Gospel Sabbath for the church to embrace. Hebrews is not saying that the Sabbath has been removed, but that there is still a Sabbath for the church.
Heb. 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
But the SDA’s are still wrong. They foolishly think this passage supports the Old Covenant Sabbath, which they promote, -but it does not. The reference here is to the Gospel Sabbath of Jesus, not to the OC Sabbath of the Pharisees that Jesus repudiated.
Sirje said: I'm sure I don't need to repeat the outline for Hebrews to you. The book clearly shows how Christ is the reality beyond the shadows in every aspect of Hebrew life and worship.
Tom said: The book of Hebrews is not the primary source of Sabbath instruction for the church. That would be the four Gospels. I suggest that you try to better understand Jesus teaching in the Gospels before you start searching for proof texts to affirm what you want to believe.
Why not start with Mark and see how soon the Gospel Sabbath enters the story? In fact, this book shows that Jesus was causing a great commotion because of his new interpretation of the Sabbath. This happens so early in the book that the Sabbath debates precede the naming of his apostles.
Mark 2:23 And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain
Mark 2:24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Mark 3:13 And He *went up on the mountain and *summoned those whom He Himself wanted, and they came to Him.
Mark 3:14 And He appointed twelve, so that they would be with Him and that He could send them out to preach,
The Gospels are full of the Sabbath teachings of Jesus. THIS is where one must start to understand the New Covenant Sabbath. THIS is where the Gospel Sabbath is located.
Sirje said: As the Jews prided themselves of having DIRECT AND SPECIAL REVELATION directly from God, Hebrews points out, Christ was a better revelation.
Tom said: The Jews prided themselves in the law and the Sabbath. The Gospels show that Jesus promoted a reformed and very different Sabbath for the church. This is where all that honestly follow Christ must learn about the Lord’s Day.
Jesus taught a better Sabbath for the Church than did Moses. I think it is time that the SDA’s wake up and try to understand the NC Sabbath so that they can stop making fools of themselves.
Sirje said: Among all these, Hebrews claims Christ's superiority over the Sabbath REST - rest from work - rest from the work the Jews had made the corner stone of their entire religious system.
Tom said: All four of the Gospels show that Christ claimed ownership and authority of his reformed Sabbath. Nothing in Hebrews changes what is contained in the Gospels about the Sabbath.
The problem is that the SDA’s have misunderstood the law and the Gospel as well as the OC and NC Sabbaths. They have the wrong Gospel and the wrong Sabbath.
Consequently, many run away from their legalism and embrace Sunday or this idea that Jesus is our Sabbath. But false doctrine will not cure false doctrine. What is needed is for the SDA’s to repent of their OC Sabbath and embrace the NC version that is taught in the Gospels and supported by Colossians and Romans, and Hebrews.
Sirje said: Their entire approach to God was one of work embodied in their rituals and their services. Hebrews simply points out that all that "holy" activity was only to point forward to Christ who gives the ultimate rest from all that frantic ritual.
Tom said: I agree that there is no salvation in any form of Sabbath keeping, and that Christ is the one that gives us spiritual “rest”. But that does not solve the Sabbath debate.
Is there a Sabbath for the Church? Yes.
There is a 7th day, Gospel Sabbath for the church.
Sirje said: The irony is, that SDA theology takes those verses from the book of Hebrews and demands more superfluous "holy" activity in the form of Sabbath keeping, as it claims that "there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God" (vs.9) - interpreting this to mean GOD'S PEOPLE STILL NEED TO KEEP THE WEEKLY SABBATH. This misses the entire point of Heb. 4 and the intent of the entire book of Hebrews, which is calling God's people out of the shadows of ritual and into the reality of Christ.
Tom said: I agree. The SDA’s have embraced the WRONG Sabbath because they are legalists like the Pharisees. Thus they promote the OC Sabbath of the Pharisees. They have totally misunderstood the NC Sabbath. Everyone has missed it. Even the great theologian Luther.
Sirje said: This is not to say we can't keep the Sabbath.
Tom said: It is very WRONG for anyone to try and keep the Old Covenant Sabbath. The Jews could not keep their Sabbath and neither can the Gentiles. No one can keep the OC Sabbath, (except for Jesus.)
By contrast, the NC Sabbath lacks the rules, including the prohibition against work, thus making its “keeping” almost moot. There is not much to “keep” but there is something to acknowledge, observe, and admit.
The SDA’s are very wrong to have embraced the Sabbath of the enemies of Christ. For this they must repent.
Moreover, the Adventists need to quickly find the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath. This is their only hope.
Sirje said; As Paul says in another place, "some keep one day above the rest while others keep all days alike".
Tom said: Paul’s remark in Romans 14 supports the Gospel Sabbath. It does not remove or make void the NC Sabbath that Jesus teaches in the Gospels.
Sirje said: We need to do what seems right for us; but don't imagine that this is required by God for our salvation.
Tom said: First off, no one gets to “determine” what is right or wrong. Only the apostles have such authority.
Second, neither the OC nor NC Sabbath is salvific. Only the Gospel saves. However, those that understand the Gospel correctly will also understand the Gospel Sabbath.
Sirje said: There is no specific "24 hour period" called the Sabbath. … The only place there could have been a specific 24-hour period of time was directly over Jerusalem. If the Sabbath is meant to be a 24-hour period in every individual's life, then OK, but that's not what the OT indicates. There seems to have been a specific 24 hour period of time that is HOLY … So it's not the a SPECIFIC period of time.
Tom said: Ha! This is funny. Why not hang around an airport and tell people that planes don’t fly? It will make about as much sense.
The Jews have managed to have a weekly 24-hour Sabbath, all around the world, for thousands of years, and now you say it is impossible? Ha! Silly SDA’s. They are wrong to think they can change the history of the world. Very sad.
The Sabbath is a 24-hour period every 7th day. Any Rabbi will tell you this. Thus no Jews have any problems with this doctrine as you think, and because it is their doctrine, what else is there to say?
Sirje said: As the OT saw the Sabbath as a "memorial to creation" and a "memorial to the exodus" (Deut.), so the NT Sabbath could conceivably be a "memorial to re-creation" in Christ. That's cool.
Tom said: The NC Sabbath that is featured in the NT is a memorial to the authority of Jesus as the Son of Man, as well as to Creation and the entire Gospel Story.
Those that embrace it correctly, show that they understand the Gospel and the Word of Christ, even as they repudiate the Sabbath of the Pharisees and the SDA’s.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word?
Bob said: Tom, and the SDAs would claim you are the one that needs repenting, and so it goes.....
Tom said: Yes. Those that embraced the OC Sabbath of the Pharisees were stunned and then outraged at the NC Sabbath that Jesus taught. And so it goes today.
Of course Jesus would not repent of his Sabbath views and this is why he was sent to the cross.
The SDA’s, as well as all others, are confused and divided over the Sabbath. Just like the Jews after Jesus started preaching the Gospel. They too have become divided about the Gospel and this new Sabbath.
But of course the religious leaders refused to admit any error, or even consider that they had made an error about the Sabbath. They thought Jesus had the wrong view of the Sabbath, not them.
John 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.
John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.
The NC Sabbath brought great “division” and debate to Judaism, and it will do the same to every church today.
The SDA’s are like the Pharisees in the Gospel Story. They repudiate the Gospel and condemn the NC Sabbath of Jesus. Sad.
Bob said: As to your point that Jesus is not the fulfillment of the Sabbath in person but in delivering it, note his words:
quote:
Matthew 11:28 (Amplified Bible) 28Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy-laden and overburdened, and I will cause you to rest. I will ease and relieve and refresh your souls.
Tom said: My point is that Jesus is not to be confused with the Jewish or Christian doctrine of the Sabbath.
Jesus upheld, defended, and reformed the Sabbath for the church. He never removed it, changed it to Sunday, or pretended that it must be kept like the Sabbath of Moses. Nor has the church ever spiritualized the Sabbath away, teaching that there is no special day of the week to worship.
Sorry Bob, but your view that there is no real Sabbath for the church is wishful thinking. The church has never agreed with such a position, nor should it.
So at this point you are wasting everyone’s time because your views are baseless, useless, and properly rejected by both the RC’s, Protestants, and even the many cults like the Mormons and JW’s.
The only Sabbath debate that is valid today is whether the Sabbath is a Sunday or Saturday event, as well as how is it to be defined, explained, and observed. Those that try and avoid the question by pretending there is no real Sabbath for the church are resolving nothing. They are just avoiding the real issues because the topic is too difficult.
The doctrine of the Sabbath does not evaporate because Jesus gives us peace and rest. That is not how the Moral law was ever viewed by the church. So why start today?
In fact, the very next verses after Matt 11: 28 are all about Jesus reforming the Sabbath and explaining how those that follow him should view it. Reforming is very different from abolishing or removing.
While Jesus is admittedly the source for all spiritual rest, forgiveness, and righteousness, 7 days a week, this theological stipulation does not mean the doctrine of the Sabbath is now excluded from the New Covenant. Jesus is our Gospel rest, but he is not the Sabbath doctrine. Which is why the NT is full of discussion and teaching about the Sabbath, just as it is with the other 9 Moral laws.
Jesus is the source for the Sabbath doctrine in the church. If he had wanted followers to think of himself as the new Sabbath, and that there would no longer be a weekly Sabbath to study the Word and fellowship, then Jesus could have easily said so. In fact, he would have said so. But he did not.
Instead of Jesus claiming he is the Sabbath and that there is no longer any weekly Sabbath for the people of God, he reforms and re-interprets the weekly Sabbath, -creating confusion and mass hysteria in the process.
Few people today understand that Jesus Sabbath teaching was so radical and counter-intuitive that is turned Judaism upside down. It caused an uproar wherever he went, even as it played a major role in his proclamation of the Gospel, and formed the backdrop for his healings and teachings.
It also was the reason why the religious leaders decided to censor and kill him.
So Jesus does not declare himself the Sabbath, but he purposefully and dramatically transforms it into something that fits the Gospel. But the Jews rejected the Gospel, as well as the Gospel Sabbath. They were horrified at both. How dare Jesus even suggest that it was permitted for all to work on the Sabbath, and to then go further and accuse God of being a Sabbath breaker as well. It was too much for them to take.
The Gospel Sabbath was beyond the comprehension of the Jews. It made no sense to most of them. But we are not Jews. We are Gentiles. We should not be so offended to hear the truth about the Sabbath.
Too bad that the SDA’s think like the Jews, and thus they are in love with the wrong Sabbath. They are like the Pharisees and the Judaizers in the Gospel Story and that is not a good place to be.
The SDA’s Don’t Understand the Sabbath
The fact of the matter is that Jesus is the primary source to understand the Gospel Sabbath. This is why the Gospels are full of his Sabbath teaching for the church.
Although the SDA’s arrogantly think they are the Sabbath Experts, and that they know all there is to know about the Sabbath, this is obviously delusional thinking.
I suggest that all SDA’s go to the NT and read what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. He does not teach that he is the Sabbath, nor does he support what the SDA’s teach about their OC Sabbath.
There is a Gospel Sabbath waiting to be discovered in the NT. But to do this, all must lay down their assumptions and their many books about the Sabbath and actually GO TO THE BIBLE DIRECTLY.
If anyone wants to understand the truth about the Sabbath, they are going to have to read the NT and study the teachings of Jesus. This will be a new experience for the Adventists and all others as well.
Bob said: A 24 hour rest period may give physical rest but only forgiveness of sin may give rest to the soul. The Sabbath of which you speak, can not do what you claim.
Tom said: You are confused and disoriented about this discussion.
The NC Sabbath is a working Sabbath. It is not the forced rest of the OC Sabbath where it is a sin to do almost anything, (unless you were a Levite, then you were exempt). The Sabbath that Jesus teaches in the Gospels is only for those that have been forgiven and saved. It is only for those that already have their eternal rest.
Moreover, the Gospel Sabbath (GS) is not to be confused with the legalistic OC Sabbath where work, travel, and other activities are limited or prohibited. This is not the case with the NC Sabbath.
Those that embrace the Gospel are both forgiven and declared righteous; they are priests of God. They don’t need a weekly physical day of spiritual rest in order to be saved, much less any OC rules and rituals.
This theological predicate allows the NC Sabbath to become a useful day of travel, worship and even work- as Jesus teaches. A day that is full of activity with many choices and options, starting with Gospel teaching, worship, and fellowship.
Jesus gives all believers forgiveness, spiritual rest, and salvation, 24/ 7. The weekly Gospel Sabbath, which he promoted as part of his Gospel, is a sign of those things, as well as the freedom for each of us to relate to the Lord’s Day as we determine, not how the religious rulers demand.
The Gospel Sabbath/Lord’s Day has none of the restrictions of the OC Sabbath, as taught by the SDA’s. It was made for the enjoyment and necessity of those that follow Jesus’ Gospel and have been saved. It is very different from what the SDA’s incorrectly teach. And it is time that they understood their great error and repented.
Just as there was a weekly Sabbath for Old Covenant Israel, so too, for the New Covenant Church, the New Israel of God. It is called the Lord’s Day, the 7th day. It is not Sunday, nor the OC Sabbath of the Judaizers and SDA’s.
Let all study the Word and the teachings of Jesus, to better understand the Gospel as well as the 7th day Gospel Sabbath.
Tom Norris for Sabbath Reform in the SDA church
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Tom,
I find it interesting that you dismiss one book (Heb) of the Bible as less authoritative than another (the four Gospels) based on what? As you might notice, I did say "the writer of Hebrews", knowing that the author has not been determined. Does that make a difference? But this is of no consequence...
This whole issue is really about the place of THE LAW in the NC Christian experience. Jesus defined THE LAW in just two general aspects - LOVE GOD; LOVE OTHERS. These two cover the whole human duty as to "keeping" the LAW. The way we determine how the two play out in our lives is through the leading of the HS, as promised by Jesus to his followers. The TEN COMMANDMENTS were usurped by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus - as he demonstrated how to keep the two-points of the " law of love" There can be no better definition than Jesus. However, Jesus lived in a specific place, at a specific time, and within a specific culture. He lived out that "law of love" within those parameters. He most certainly demonstrated to the Jews how they were to relate to that "law of love"; and that included viewing the commandments, they tried so hard to live by, within the new guidelines that He set with His life. Therefore, Jesus said, to the Jews, "It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." He said that because in their Sabbath keeping, the Jews were so concerned about their own stand before God that they refused to even help others if it meant breaking their idea of Sabbath keeping. Jesus was very clear - the needs of our fellow man come before any Sabbath keeping - "Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath".
The rest of the TEN COMMANDMENTS are also meant, in their specification (is that a word?) to the Hebrews as they emerged out of bondage to form a nation. There were issues of other gods; of purity; of orderly community etc. . Those TEN were a specific application of the TWO commandments TO LOVE. Today, love may need to be practiced in ways different than what the Hebrews needed to do. We have our unique relationships, both cultural and personal, for which there are not specific commandments or guidelines given in the Bible. Nevertheless, the two guiding principles of, LOVE GOD AND LOVE OTHERS, apply.
Of course, love is an empty word if not accompanied by action. That action is for us to determine under the guidance of the HS and the precepts demonstrated in the Scriptures.
The book of Hebrews (whoever wrote it) was aimed specifically at the Jews and their connection to the OT law keeping as well as the rituals that accompanied them. I won't go through that again, as I explained it in my previous post. You may see a new command in Heb. 4 to keep a Sabbath, but I don't. To me, it clearly states that Jesus is our true REST ; not the Sabbath. Hebrews does not say , "therefore, don't keep the Sabbath". It merely places Sabbath keeping in its proper perspective.
Frankly, I don't see how your idea of the "NC Sabbath" is any different from NO SABBATH. But maybe that's just me... . Personally, I have to admit that the Sabbath has become a conundrum for me. I always loved the Sabbath and the peace from daily struggles it provided; so I still like to retreat from the world. Church used to an exercise in faustration, so I've given up trying to make that work for me.
What is so frustrating is that the entire SDA theological thrust has the Sabbath in the center rather than the Gospel. It's as if the Gospel message is secondary to "keeping the law" - which really means, KEEPING THE SABBATH, the rest of the law seems to retreat into the shadows.
Peace...
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Well said sirje. Hebrews is certainly not about putting anyone back under Torah law. The writer knew that all the law was fulfilled at Calvary, thus his insistence that we are under new and better covenant.
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Sirje said: Tom, I find it interesting that you dismiss one book (Heb) of the Bible as less authoritative than another (the four Gospels) based on what?
Tom said: I am not dismissing the book of Hebrews. My point was that the Gospels are not to be ignored, dismissed, or marginalized so that people can run to other passages and try to overturn the clear teachings of Jesus.
Moreover, the famous Sabbath passage in Hebrews does not say what most people think. This passage says there is still a weekly 7th day Sabbath for the church to understand. The Greek does not mean a spiritual Sabbath but a weekly one, and thus this text cannot be used to refute the NC Sabbath.
Sirje said: As you might notice, I did say "the writer of Hebrews", knowing that the author has not been determined. Does that make a difference? But this is of no consequence...
Tom said: I did notice. But again, my point was to underscore the error about making an end run around the Gospels. Why run to the unknown author of Hebrews, to incorrectly quote a passage about the Sabbath, when the Gospels are full of the Sabbath teachings of Jesus?
Sirje said: This whole issue is really about the place of THE LAW in the NC Christian experience.
Tom said: The SDA’s have made the mistake of elevating the law over the Gospel. They don’t understand either, much less the Gospel Sabbath.
The practical issue is whether we will follow the Gospel teachings of Jesus. Not whether we will follow the law. Jesus is the highest authority on earth for the church. Not the law. We are saved by faith in him, not by keeping the law as the SDA’s have absurdly taught all these years.
Remember, the OC Sabbath rules contained in the 10 C’s, did NOT apply to the Priests. Only to the non-priestly Jews. But the NC Sabbath is only for those that embrace the Gospel, thus becoming priests of God, which makes them EXEMPT for the OC Sabbath rules and regulations.
THIS is what Jesus, a master theologian and the number one apostle of God is teaching.
Sirje said: Jesus defined THE LAW in just two general aspects - LOVE GOD; LOVE OTHERS. These two cover the whole human duty as to "keeping" the LAW. The way we determine how the two play out in our lives is through the leading of the HS, as promised by Jesus to his followers.
Tom said: While Jesus reduced the meaning and purpose of the law to love, he also clearly, repeatedly, and with the authority of God himself, taught a very different, controversial, and counter-intuitive Sabbath for the church.
Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath was a great shock to the Jews. They never saw it coming, nor would they embrace it.
It will also be a stunning and dividing force for the SDA’s and all others when confronted with this remarkable doctrine that has been misunderstood for centuries.
The SDA’s were correct to teach that the Sabbath doctrine would be a featured and controversial topic at the end of time. It’s just that they embraced the wrong version of the Sabbath, for which they must “zealously repent.”
They never dreamed that they could be so wrong, and their inability to enter into this discussion underscores their hopeless position and embarrassment. Which means that a paradigm shift is on the way. It cannot be prevented.
Sirje said: The TEN COMMANDMENTS were usurped by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus - as he demonstrated how to keep the two-points of the " law of love"
Tom said: As a Jew, Jesus obeyed and fulfilled the Jewish law. He did not “usurp” it. That is the wrong word, which means to seize something without right. Jesus was doing neither.
Sirje said: There can be no better definition than Jesus.
Tom said: There can be no better definition of the Sabbath than what is found in the Gospels. Jesus is the head of the church, and his teaching about the Sabbath is what the church must follow. He did not teach a Sunday Lord’s Day, nor did he promote the OC Sabbath of Moses, where it was a sin to work, like the SDA’s teach.
The church must follow the Gospel teachings of Jesus. Period. This includes his instruction about the Sabbath, which is the Lord’s Day, which is featured in all four of the Gospels.
Sirje said: However, Jesus lived in a specific place, at a specific time, and within a specific culture. He lived out that "law of love" within those parameters.
Tom said: The first century teaching of Jesus, including the Sabbath is what the church should follow. Period.
Sirje said: He most certainly demonstrated to the Jews how they were to relate to that "law of love"; and that included viewing the commandments, they tried so hard to live by, within the new guidelines that He set with His life.
Tom said: Jesus taught that there were exclusions and exemptions built into the 4th Commandment. And that these exemptions were now going to be applied to all that follow the God of the Jews. The Jews said NO, and killed him over the Sabbath.
Sirje said; Therefore, Jesus said, to the Jews, "It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." He said that because in their Sabbath keeping, the Jews were so concerned about their own stand before God that they refused to even help others if it meant breaking their idea of Sabbath keeping.
Tom said: Jesus knew that the Jews had misunderstood God and the Sabbath. He was trying to explain both to them.
Sirje said: Jesus was very clear - the needs of our fellow man come before any Sabbath keeping - "Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath".
Tom said: Jesus was very clear that the Gospel Sabbath is not to be kept like the OC Jewish Sabbath. The NC Sabbath is very different.
Sirje said: Today, love may need to be practiced in ways different than what the Hebrews needed to do. We have our unique relationships, both cultural and personal, for which there are not specific commandments or guidelines given in the Bible. Nevertheless, the two guiding principles of, LOVE GOD AND LOVE OTHERS, apply.
Tom said: Those that want to understand or practice love, must follow the teachings of Jesus. He must be the definition of love and correct behavior, even their Sabbath behavior. Christians follow Jesus, not the law.
Sirje said: The book of Hebrews (whoever wrote it) was aimed specifically at the Jews and their connection to the OT law keeping as well as the rituals that accompanied them. I won't go through that again, as I explained it in my previous post.
Tom said: Like I said before, this passage in Hebrews says the opposite of what many think. It is not an anti-Sabbatarian text. It is saying that there is a Sabbath for the church to understand and embrace. And that Sabbath has turned out to be the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Jesus.
Who knew? Not the SDA’s. Which means that the SDA’s must admit their error and repent for their false, Judaizing Sabbath.
Sirje said: You may see a new command in Heb. 4 to keep a Sabbath, but I don't. To me, it clearly states that Jesus is our true REST; not the Sabbath.
Tom said: First, the meaning of the Greek word Sabbath in the passage is clear to all scholars. The word is talking about a weekly Sabbath. This is a linquistical fact.
Second, if anyone wants to understand the doctrine of the Sabbath, they must go to Jesus in the Gospels. He is the Lord of the Sabbath, which is why he spoke and taught so much about the Sabbath.
Sirje said: Hebrews does not say, "therefore, don't keep the Sabbath". It merely places Sabbath keeping in its proper perspective.
Tom said: Ha! Since when should anyone run to Hebrews to understand the proper perspective about the Sabbath? It is the teachings of Jesus, the self-proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath that surpasses all others. Thus the Gospels are the correct source to find out about the Sabbath. Then one can better understand the few references that are contained in the rest of the NT.
Let all SDA’s study the Sabbath teachings of Jesus. He has the proper perspective and teaching that all must embrace. Hebrews support the Sabbath views of Jesus and so too does Paul in Colossians and Romans.
Sirje said: Frankly, I don't see how your idea of the "NC Sabbath" is any different from NO SABBATH. But maybe that's just me... .
Tom said: Until people get comfortable with the idea that there is a Gospel Sabbath for the church, there is little need to get into the details about behavior. We have only been discussing this is broad strokes.
One of the prominent features of the Gospel Sabbath is the coming together to worship, pray, and hear the Gospel, as well as eat a congregational meal and drink real wine as instructed by Jesus. Much of this should be very familiar to all SDA’s. Such behavior represents the heart of the Gospel Sabbath, which is obviously very different from the regular days of the week.
Sirje said: Personally, I have to admit that the Sabbath has become a conundrum for me. I always loved the Sabbath and the peace from daily struggles it provided; so I still like to retreat from the world. Church used to an exercise in frustration, so I've given up trying to make that work for me.
Tom said: The Gospel Sabbath only works when people understand the Gospel. The SDA’s have embraced the Old Covenant Sabbath, even as they have repudiated the Gospel. So how can this false Sabbath ever become functional or give them rest?
Thus the SDA Sabbath was full of rules and subsequent guilt. The law was being supposedly upheld, even as the Gospel was being thrown to the ground and trampled upon. There is no peace or joy associated with such wretched legalism. There is no spiritual rest, much less Eternal Life.
Sirje said: What is so frustrating is that the entire SDA theological thrust has the Sabbath in the center rather than the Gospel. It's as if the Gospel message is secondary to "keeping the law" - which really means, KEEPING THE SABBATH, the rest of the law seems to retreat into the shadows.
Tom said: Correct. The SDA’s have placed the OC Sabbath above the Gospel. They have made the law greater than Christ, even as Christ is like a new Moses to them. But there is no such thing as an OC Sabbath in the church. Jesus in not like Moses. There is no such Sabbath doctrine as the SDA teach any more than there is tithing in the church.
The Gospel Sabbath only works with the Gospel. When the church understands the genuine Gospel of the NT, the true New Covenant Sabbath will emerge to the delight of many.
Let all SDA’s understand and embrace the Gospel, and the Gospel Sabbath.
Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath
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Tom,
You are wrong about Heb 4. It does talk about the weekly, 7th day Sabbath as it was given to the Hebrews; but then it goes on to say that, even with the weekly Sabbath, there still remains a Sabbath REST, not DAY, for the people of God. It's about REST, not a DAY. The day only accommodates for the rest.
To understand Heb 4 the way you present, is not within the intent of the rest of the book of Hebrews. The entire book talks about Christ's superiority over the various Jewish rituals and beliefs. But in Heb 4, you say, the author changes course and gives another form of the law to keep. Doesn't compute, Tom.
Jesus kept the Sabbath like a good Jew. He kept all the other festivals as well. His rebellion of the Sabbath was to point out that the Jews had the wrong priorities when they placed law keeping (in whatever form) over and above love towards their fellow man.
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Tom, as Sirje has just stated, I can't understand how you can read the same texts that we are pointing out and not obviously see that it is talking of forgiveness of sin by Jesus not a new way to keep a 24 hour period. That is not the kind of Reform that the SDA church needs, a reduction in the DO's and DON'Ts list for the day. Where are you getting this concept? Source please!! Your way of reading the Bible, only yours, or others that see it your way, other scholars or professors? Who, what online reference can you give us.
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Sirje said: Tom, You are wrong about Heb 4. It does talk about the weekly, 7th day Sabbath as it was given to the Hebrews; but then it goes on to say that, even with the weekly Sabbath, there still remains a Sabbath REST, not DAY, for the people of God.
Tom said: The specific text in question, v 9, comes right out and says that there is a real Sabbath day for the church to embrace.
This specific Sabbath text is like no other in the Bible.
The Greek word that the author (Paul, Luke, or Apollos?) used for Sabbath does NOT mean spiritual rest. NO it is a clear and irrefutable reference to the weekly, 7th day Sabbath. It is a reference to the genuine Lord’s Day, or Gospel Sabbath.
Sirje said: It's about REST, not a DAY. The day only accommodates for the rest.
Tom said: The specific language used in Heb 4: 9 prohibits your interpretation. Don’t blame me. I am not a Greek scholar, blame them.
Your view cannot be what the author had in mind or what Jesus has clearly taught in the Gospels. Which means you, and everyone else needs to pay close attention to what the Word and the Spirit is trying to say about the Lord’s Day, which is the 7th day.
Sirje said: To understand Heb 4 the way you present, is not within the intent of the rest of the book of Hebrews. The entire book talks about Christ's superiority over the various Jewish rituals and beliefs.
Tom said: You have overlooked that Hebrews opens up with the declaration that Jesus is the co-creator, which point is referenced again in this passage about the Sabbath.
Heb. 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
Heb. 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Here is the real connection to the Sabbath rest. It is the association of Jesus as the Creator, someone who is far greater than Moses, and all the Levites, etc.
Moreover, Hebrews is also saying that the Words Jesus spoke are from God. This INCLUDES his NC Sabbath teaching that he taught in all four Gospels. Thus the Reformed Sabbath of Jesus IS THE WORD OF GOD for the church.
You have overlooked the fact that Heb 4: 9 is speaking about a real Sabbath for the church. The Gospel Sabbath. From the Lord of the Sabbath and the Creator. Had the author meant something other than a real Sabbath day, he would have used a different word.
Don’t take my word for it, look it up and see for yourself?
Sirje said: But in Heb 4, you say, the author changes course and gives another form of the law to keep. Doesn't compute, Tom.
Tom said: The SDA’s have been so beaten up by the law and their Old Covenant Sabbath, that the very word Sabbath is abhorrent to them. I get that and understand it. But that is not how the NC Sabbath is to be viewed. It is a very different Sabbath. It is NOT THE SDA SABBATH!
The Gospel Sabbath is not to be viewed or kept like the OC Sabbath. You need to stop projecting the SDA Sabbath onto this NEW SABBATH doctrine that we are discussing.
The true Lord’s Day is not like the OC Sabbath of the SDA’s or Jews. It is not an exercise in law keeping, but a repudiation of that view. Which is why all can WORK on the Gospel Sabbath without guilt or sin. This is the polar opposite of the OC Sabbath!
I know this discussion hurts the heads of many SDA’s. I have had many scream at me for teaching that it is fine to work on the Sabbath. They cannot fathom such a Sabbath doctrine, which goes against every fiber of their being, (which of course is the result of the incompetent SDA’s indoctrination.)
The SDA’s have taught so much myth and false doctrine, to so many generations, that truth seems fictional and impossible. But truth is truth regardless, and it is time that the Adventists understood this point and repent.
There is a Gospel Sabbath for the church and Hebrews supports such a view. But it is not the Sabbath of the SDA’s. It is not the OC Sabbath.
Heb. 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. There remains a Sabbath doctrine for the Church.
http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/sabbath/hebrews4.9.htm
http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/sabbath/hebrews4.9.htm
http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/SA/SA_sabbathrest.pdf
http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/SA/SA_sabbathrest.pdf
http://www.come2jesus.com.au/hebrews4.htm
http://www.come2jesus.com.au/hebrews4.htm
Sirje said: Jesus kept the Sabbath like a good Jew.
Tom said: WRONG! Jesus was viewed as a great Sabbath Breaker by his religious peers. He did NOT keep the Sabbath correctly according to the Jews.
So you must retract your view and stick to the clear storyline in the Gospels.
Jesus was not a Levite, and thus he had no permission to work on the Sabbath. But he did it anyway and thus he did NOT keep the Sabbath like a good Jew. He broke the Sabbath and taught others to also work on that day. Which horrified and enraged the Pharisees.
To make matters worse, he claimed that God was also a Sabbath breaker and that Jesus was intent on following his Father’s Sabbath behavior—and work on that day. In clear violation of the rules.
As far as the Jews were concerned, he was obviously guilty of Sabbath breaking. He must pay the penalty of the law and die. Sabbath breaking was a Capitol Offence. This is why they sent him to the cross.
Sirje said: He kept all the other festivals as well.
Tom said: If Jesus kept the festivals like he did the Sabbath, then we can be sure he did not follow the traditions of his day as you assume. There is no proof that Jesus followed the status quo of 1st century Judaism.
Matt. 15:1 Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
Matt. 15:2 “Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
Sirje said: His rebellion of the Sabbath was to point out that the Jews had the wrong priorities when they placed law keeping (in whatever form) over and above love towards their fellow man.
Tom said: The Jews had most everything wrong. Just like the Laodicean Church today. So they could not easily understand anything that Jesus was saying, nor did they want to. The same thing is taking place today.
Jesus Sabbath instruction is closely associated with his Gospel. It is an important part of his New Covenant teaching for the church. If he had wanted to “rebel” against the Sabbath and remove it, he could have easily done so. But that is not what the record shows.
Jesus REFORMED the Sabbath. He did not REMOVE IT, or declare he was its fulfillment. But he did dramatically and carefully CHANGE its meaning, making sure that he also articulated the theological basis for such changes.
This Gospel Sabbath was so different and opposite of the status quo that the Jews took action to kill Jesus and wipe out his Gospel Sabbath. They did not understand, nor does the church today.
Here are some links about Hebrews:
http://scripturetext.com/hebrews/4-9.htm
http://bible.org/article/argument-hebrews
http://www.gotquestions.org/author-hebrews.html
http://hallel.info/hebrews-sabbath-rest/
Here is more on Hebrews 3, 4:
Three Meanings of the Sabbath Rest:
Had Pastor Taylor taken time to read carefully Hebrews 3 and 4, he would have noticed that the author presents three different levels of meanings of the Sabbath rest by welding two texts together, Psalms 95:11 and Genesis 2:2. At the first level, the Sabbath rest points to God’s creation rest, when "his works were finished from the foundation of the world . . . and God rested on the seventh day from all his works" (Heb 4:3,4).
This is the original physical aspect of the Sabbath rest as cessation from work on the seventh day (Ex 20:10; 23:12; 31:14; 34:21) in order to commemorate the completion and perfection of God’s creation.
At the second level, the physical rest experience of the Sabbath in Hebrews symbolizes the promise of entry into the land of Canaan—an experience which was denied to the wilderness generation ("failed to enter" Heb 4:6; cf. 3:16-19), but which was realized later when the Israelites under Joshua did enter the land of rest (Heb 4:8).
To understand the application of the weekly physical Sabbath rest to the political or national aspiration of a Land of Rest, it is important to note that in OT times the Sabbath rest served to epitomize the national aspirations for a peaceful life in a land at rest (Deut 12:9; 25:19; Is 14:3) where the king would give to the people "rest from all enemies" (2 Sam 7:1; cf. 1 Kings 8:5), and where God would find His "resting place" among His people and especially in His sanctuary at Zion (2 Chron 6:41; 1 Chron 23:25; Ps 132:8, 13, 14; Is 66:1). Scholars, like Gerhand von Rad, have traced the "Sabbath rest" motif in the Old Testament, and have shown how the weekly physical rest experience, came to symbolize for the Jews the hope for a national rest when they would enjoy "rest from all enemies."
At the third and most important level, the Sabbath rest in Hebrews 4 prefigures the redemption rest, which has dawned for God’s people through Christ’s coming. The author establishes the redemptive meaning of the Sabbath rest by drawing a remarkable conclusion from Psalm 95:7, 11 which he quotes several times (Heb 4:3, 5, 7).
In Psalm 95, God invites the Israelites to enter into His rest which was denied to the rebellious wilderness generation (Heb 4:7-11). The fact that God should renewed "again" the promise of His rest long after the actual entrance into the earthly Canaan—namely, at the time of David by saying "today" (Heb 4:7)—is interpreted by the author of Hebrews to mean two things: First, God’s Sabbath rest was not exhausted when the Israelites under Joshua found a resting place in the land, but that it still "remains for the people of God" (4:9); Second, the ultimate fulfillment of the Sabbath rest has dawned with the coming of Christ (Heb 4:3, 7).
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/end … ti_78.html
Bob 2 said: Tom, as Sirje has just stated, I can't understand how you can read the same texts that we are pointing out and not obviously see that it is talking of forgiveness of sin by Jesus not a new way to keep a 24 hour period.
Tom said: While the forgiveness of sin is the basis for the Christian Faith, such a doctrine does not destroy the Sabbath as some assume. The Sabbath is part of the Moral law, just like the other nine. It cannot be removed from the duty of man, nor did Jesus, or the church teach otherwise.
TWO SABBATHS
Many overlook that there was always TWO different Sabbaths in the OC. This is the key to understanding what Jesus is teaching about the Gospel Sabbath.
It is even more correct to say that the Sabbath was made for two DIFFERENT groups, within the chosen people. One group were Levites and the other group, - was everyone else.
When Jesus REFORMS the Sabbath for the NC church, he does so by abolishing the divided nature of the 4th Commandment, embracing only the Priestly Sabbath portion, which was a working Sabbath.
The NT does not teach that Jesus spiritualized away the weekly Sabbath of the 4th Commandment. He never claimed to be the fulfillment of the Sabbath, but the Lord of the Sabbath. There is a big difference. (Why would Jesus remove the Sabbath and then claim to be its Lord?)
The NT clearly shows that Jesus revised the Sabbath, and turned it on its head, even as he made it applicable to the church, which featured the Priesthood of All Believers.
What a pity that the SDA’s have embraced the WRONG Sabbath! Few in the Adventist Community can even comprehend such a doctrine. It makes their brains hurt. Why? Because all they know is the OC Sabbath of the law. The Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath has eluded them. Pity.
Bob 2 said: That is not the kind of Reform that the SDA church needs, a reduction in the DO's and DON'Ts list for the day.
Tom said: Jesus determines what kind of reform is needed for the church, even as he is the one that defines and articulates the Sabbath for the church.
The LM is clear that all churches have the wrong Gospel and the wrong Sabbath. They have ALL followed a false Christ and a false Sabbath and thus they all need to repent and reform.
There is only one Gospel and one Gospel Sabbath. Period.
Bob 2 said: Where are you getting this concept? Source please!! Your way of reading the Bible, only yours, or others that see it your way, other scholars or professors? Who, what online reference can you give us.
Tom said: Bob, slow down and take a breath.
The doctrine of the Sabbath has been part of the church from the earliest days. The fact that the day changed over time to Sunday, or that the SDA’s think it should be Saturday is beside the point. The weekly Sabbath/ Lord’s Day has always been part of church practice. Which is why every church in the world today still meets once a week, without fail, on either Sunday or Saturday.
So there has ALWAYS been a concept of a NC Sabbath in the church. It is a fact of history and an ongoing practice today for all to see. It is normative, practical behavior for all RC’s and Protestants, without exception. Even the crazy cults like the Mormons embrace a weekly Sabbath. Why are you acting so shocked as if Tom Norris has invented the concept of a New Covenant Sabbath?
As for scholars; I already gave you a link showing Luther’s view on the Sabbath. There are many more scholars that deal with the Sabbath. Have you looked? I think you will find that all scholars acknowledge some kind of Sabbath doctrine. They may embrace different details, but they all acknowledge a weekly Lord’s day/ Sabbath of the church
There is obedience associated with our Gospel Faith. The acknowledgment of the NC Sabbath is part of that obedience of faith. The Gospel Sabbath, when understood properly and embraced by the church, will be a sign of fidelity to the Word and obedience to Jesus and his Gospel. Those that refuse, have repudiated the Word and the Gospel.
Rom. 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake,
Rom. 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;
There is 7th day Gospel Sabbath for the repentant Laodicean Church. It is not what the SDA’s have promoted all these years.
Heb. 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath
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Tom,
My Bible, The Updated New American Standard version, says for Heb.4:9 "So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God".
Heb. 4 is miles from the opening Heb.1:1-2 where it talks about Jesus the Creator. In fact Heb. 1:1 sets Him up as the ultimate PROPHET who has the last word (as far as prophets go). There are no more prophets as in the line of prophets in the OT.
Hebrews then goes on to elevate Jesus over the angels (Heb 1&2); over Moses (Heb. 3&4); Aaaronic priests (4-7); sacrifices (8-10). Among them, in Heb. 4 Jesus is the ultimate Sabbath REST. If the OT Sabbath had been sufficient there would not have needed to be another (REST).
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Sirje said: Tom, My Bible, The Updated New American Standard version, says for Heb.4:9 "So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God".
Tom said: You need to understand that the Greek word here means “a Sabbath keeping.” As in the 7th day. It is not saying that the weekly Sabbath is gone and now the believers rest is in Jesus.
Here is the most literal translation, which is an exclusive reference to Sabbath keeping, as in the Day. The word “rest” is not even there! It is being supplied by the translator.
Darby Bible Translation: There remains then a sabbatism to the people of God.
Here are some more very correct translations.
Bible in Basic English: So that there is still a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God.
Douay-Rheims Bible: There remaineth therefore a day of rest for the people of God.
You, and some others are reading into this verse what you want, not what it is really saying. Many are using some poor translations that focus on rest, and that seem to leave the door open for anti-Sabbatism. But the text is talking about the weekly, 7th day Sabbath. It is saying that there is such a doctrine for the church.
Thus the KJV and the AKJV gives a misleading reading by saying:
King James Bible: There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
American King James Version: There remains therefore a rest to the people of God.
Such a reading, if true, can easily be viewed as supporting this idea that Jesus is our rest, and that this passage is not dealing with the weekly Sabbath of the Jews and Christians. But this is not a good translation. It is misleading and wrong. The word “rest” is not even in the text!
The ASV is better, because it uses the term Sabbath and then adds the word rest. So it keeps closer to the original idea, but even then, it misses what the passage is actually saying. The author is declaring that there is a weekly, Gospel Sabbath for the church.
American Standard Version: There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
The DR Bible gives a more accurate translation:
Douay-Rheims Bible: There remaineth therefore a day of rest for the people of God.
Take a look at how numerous Bible translations view this verse.
Also note that this ADDITIONAL rest is for the believer. It is for those that have already been saved by embracing the Gospel. Which is an observation that supports the view that this passage is speaking about the NC weekly Sabbath of the Church.
New International Version (©1984): There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;
New Living Translation (©2007): So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God.
English Standard Version (©2001) : So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
New American Standard Bible (©1995): So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
International Standard Version (©2008): There remains, therefore, a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995): Therefore, a time of rest and worship exists for God's people.
King James Bible: There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
American King James Version: There remains therefore a rest to the people of God.
American Standard Version: There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
Bible in Basic English: So that there is still a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God.
Douay-Rheims Bible: There remaineth therefore a day of rest for the people of God.
Darby Bible Translation : There remains then a sabbatism to the people of God.
English Revised Version: There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
Webster's Bible Translation: There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Weymouth New Testament: It follows that there still remains a sabbath rest for the people of God.
World English Bible: There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
Young's Literal Translation: there doth remain, then, a sabbatic rest to the people of God,
http://bible.cc/hebrews/4-9.htm
Sirje said: Heb. 4 is miles from the opening Heb.1:1-2 where it talks about Jesus the Creator.
Tom said: There can be no doubt that Jesus is introduced as the Creator in Heb 1 and further on in this same chapter. Or that Heb 4 also speaks about the Creation and the 7th day. So there is a clear tie in with the creation and the Sabbath rest.
Sirje said: In fact Heb. 1:1 sets Him up as the ultimate PROPHET who has the last word (as far as prophets go). There are no more prophets as in the line of prophets in the OT.
Tom said: Jesus, as the co-creator and ultimate Prophet of God, taught a Gospel Sabbath for the church. Thus the Gospels contain the reformed, NC Sabbath for the church, as taught by JESUS. This is where the Gospel Sabbath is articulated and explained for the church.
I am certain that the author of Hebrews would agree with this point and reject your view. Those that follow Jesus must also follow his Sabbath teachings, as well as anything else he teaches.
Hebrews only re-enforces the Sabbath teaching of Jesus, as does every other reference to the Sabbath/ Lord’s Day in the rest of the NT.
Sirje said: Hebrews then goes on to elevate Jesus over the angels (Heb 1&2); over Moses (Heb. 3&4); Aaaronic priests (4-7); sacrifices (8-10). Among them, in Heb. 4 Jesus is the ultimate Sabbath REST.
Tom said: There is no doubt that Jesus is above everything on earth. This includes his NC Sabbath, of which he claimed to be its Lord.
Jesus NEVER taught that he was the Sabbath, or that the Sabbath would be removed, changed to Sunday, or remain full of OC rules and prohibitions against work as the SDA’s teach.
Rather, he taught a new and improved Sabbath that is very different from the OC Sabbath of the Jews and the SDA’s. Those today that follow Jesus will understand and embrace his Gospel Sabbath.
Sirje said: If the OT Sabbath had been sufficient there would not have needed to be another (REST).
Tom said: Sirje, you are not paying attention. Nor are you acknowledging that some of your views have been proven wrong.
Previously you claimed that Jesus kept the OC Sabbath, but I showed you that he did not. He was a great Sabbath breaker.
So you need to confess these errors and remove them from your thoughts about the Sabbath. Then you will be able to understand things better. Those that insist on defending error are not helping move the discussion forward.
You are very correct to say that the OC Sabbath is NOT sufficient. I fully agree. This is why Jesus articulates a NC Sabbath for the church. Jesus teaches a much better, much different, Sabbath for those that embrace the Gospel.
Jesus in not, not, not promoting the OC Sabbath as the SDA’s so foolishly teach. No, no, no. Neither am I.
The discussion here is about the NC Sabbath. The church needs to understand and embrace the Gospel Sabbath, which is very different from what the SDA’s have taught, and what all others also teach.
What we have here is a (seemingly) new doctrine emerging for all to see. It is a paradigm shifting discussion with major implications for all denominations and churches, starting with the SDA’s. It comes from their community, because they are the ones that pushed the Sabbath forward more than all others. So it makes perfect sense.
Let All Study the Gospel Sabbath
Those that want to understand the Reformed Sabbath of the NT, must start their study with the four Gospels.
All must sit at the feet of Jesus and learn from him the details about the NC Sabbath. THEN they can go to the rest of the NT and see how the other writers support the teachings of Jesus on this matter.
I am not defending or promoting the SDA Sabbath. They have the wrong one. They have the OC Sabbath and the Gospel of the Judaizers. But there is a genuine, NC Sabbath for the church to understand and embrace, even as there is only one correct Gospel. This is what we are discussing.
Douay-Rheims Bible: There remaineth therefore a day of rest for the people of God.
Bible in Basic English: So that there is still a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for the NC Sabbath
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Tom,
Why do you even waste the time parlaying with people about the validity of the SDA church? It's quite clear that the whole beginnings were of a deception. From 1844 to 1851 the pioneers were preaching seven years tarring time and then the Lord woul return. They determiined this by the seven drops of blood that the high priest would sprinkle on the mercy seat during the day of atonment in the most holy place according to the OT sanctuary system (She got that idea from Joseph Bates), each drop/time representing a day for a year. The last six months of this time period was to be the time of the harvesting by sickle of first, the redeemed, and then a second harvest of the wicked. During this time Ellen White claimed that the Lord showed her in vision that there was a company of people walking along a path and fell off, not to be able to get back on. She claimed that these are those who refused to recieve the teachings of the pioneers concerning the grat disappoint of 1844 and the three angels messages of Rev 14 along with the judgement going on then. They taught that it was the time of the midnight cry, "behold the Bridegroom cometh", and that it was time to call others to "Come out of her my people" of all that were in the Roman Catholic church and the apostate Protestant churches that kept Sunday. They taught that Jesus had gone ito the Most Holy place in 1844 to the marriage, and to recieve the kingdom.
This understanding was confirmed by the June 29th camden vision. In this vision Ellen White proclaims that it is of no use to pray for those who have not recieved the pioneers message; the lost. She say that from then on they only need to remain faithful and continue in their love for each other. Why? Because in two days. the first of July, would commence the last six monts of 1852, the end of the time of the seven drops of blood, when the sicke harvests of Revelation 14 were to commence.
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By Robert K. Sanders
"EGW tells us by vision that God's spirit has been withdrawn from the wicked world and we are not to pray for the wicked as they cannot be benefited by our prayers. EGW held the Shut Door as late as 1851. Did Jesus ever teach not to pray for sinners???"
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The Camden Vision 1851
By Ellen G. White
Camden, N. Y. June 29, 1851
"The Lord shewed that he had, in answer to prayer, removed his frown from this band, and that they could have the smiles of Jesus, if they would live very humble, and walk carefully before the Lord, and know that in every step that they took that God was guiding them, and the band would be strong and would be a terror to their enemies; and the band must press together. Then I saw Bro. Wing and Bro. Hyatt—that the enemy had been trying to destroy them—that they were praying for light upon a few texts of Scripture, and the more they prayed the darker they grew, and the enemy was shutting down a network of darkness over them; and just about as they were getting entirely shut in, they were delivered—the net was broken, and they escaped. I saw the true light on these texts &c. I saw that this rebuke was given by Jesus to the Pharisees and Jews, who were filled with self-righteousness, and would only speak to or greet those who were just as full of self-righteousness and hypocrisy as they themselves were; and they entirely neglect and pass by those who; did not make quite as much, and who did not receive greeting in the market as they did. I saw that it did not in any way apply to this time—that we are now living in. Then I saw that Jesus prayed for his enemies; but that should not cause US or lead US to pray for the wicked world, whom God had rejected—when he prayed for his enemies, there was hope for them, and they could be benefitted and saved by his prayers, and also after he was a mediator in the outer apartment for the whole world; but now his spirit and sympathy were withdrawn from the world; and our sympathy must be with Jesus, and must be withdrawn from the ungodly. I saw that God loved his people—and in answer to prayers, would send rain upon the just and the unjust—I saw that now, in this time, that he watered the earth and caused the sun to shine for the saints and the wicked by our prayers, by our Father sending rain upon the unjust, while he sent it upon the just. I saw that the wicked could not be benefitted by our prayers now—and although he sent it upon the unjust, yet their day was coming. Then I saw that scripture did not mean the wicked whom God had rejected that we must love, but he meant our neighbors in the household, and did not extend beyond the household; yet I saw that we should not do the wicked around us any injustice; —But, our neighbors whom we were to love, were those who loved god and were serving him."
(Signed) E. G. White.
Copied by R. R. Chaplin
What to Notice
1. E. G. White is instructing the band not to pray for the "wicked world whom God had rejected." "Because Jesus prayed for his enemies" E. G. White counsels us not to pray for the wicked world, whom God had rejected. God has not rejected this world, if fact Jesus died to save it. If we understand this correctly she is saying, "do not follow Jesus’ example of praying for his enemies, but follow my vision and do not pray for them as they cannot be benefited by our prayers." This was one of her precious rays of light to contradict Jesus’ example. Matt 5:44 (NIV) "But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"
2. Ellen tells us, (Jesus’) "spirit and sympathy were withdrawn from the world; and our sympathy must be withdrawn from the ungodly." Where in the Bible does it tell us that God has withdrawn his spirit from the world and that we should withdraw our sympathy from the ungodly? Did probation for the world end in June 29, 1851 when Ellen wrote this?
3. "I saw that the wicked could not be benefitted by our prayers now."
If you believe this statement then it is useless to pray for our non-Christian relatives and friends. Do you really believe that Ellen received light from the throne of God when she blatantly contradicts Him? The Bible says: Rom 5:10 (NIV) "For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"
Was it possible that from 1844 till the Camden Vision of 1851 that there was no hope for the wicked, then after 1851 there was hope for the wicked and we could start praying for them again? What nonsense! Are we to believe what Ellen was telling us came from the throne of God, who does not change?
4. "I saw that scripture did not mean the wicked whom God had rejected that we must love." This vision must have really put a smile on Satan’s face as he saw this deluded woman and her little flock rejecting God’s Word by not praying for the ungodly and not taking the Gospel of salvation to them. After 1844 the White’s, Bates, and other leaders splintered off of the main Millerite body, and thought that the door of mercy was closed for the world and they could not be saved. They then devoted their energies trying to win the Millerite back to their "shut door" theory. After 1851 the Whites’ opened the door and started preaching to the world.
After the 1844 fiasco William Miller denounced his calculations as an error and said that nothing happened to fulfilled prophecy in 1844. He and his group started preaching the Gospel to the world, both he and his followers was condemned by E. G. White as having a false reformation because they would not accept Ellen G. White's shut door for the world doctrine.
5. Ellen used the term "I saw" ten times in the Camden vision. She was attempting to impresses her readers that she was in holy vision. There was no truth in this vision making her a false prophet.
White Estate responds to the Camden Vision
The White Estate sent me a document on the Camden Vision. It is identified as, Ms 1a 1851. They do not have an original copy of the Camden Vision. They point out that Uriah Smith considered it authentic as he used it in his defense of E. G. White’s visions in his book, "The Visions of Mrs. E. G. White" 1868 p. 28.
I have the original book by Smith with his Camden quotes. Ellen White must have thought that his defense of her vision was accurate since James and Ellen sold many copies of Smith’s book at camp meeting. If Uriah Smith was in error, why didn't Ellen correct him? Back in 1868 Ellen was defending her visions as being true by way of Smith’s book. SDAs always compare E.G. White to the Bible prophets. But I ask, what Bible prophets ever sold their visions? What Bible prophet re-interpreted their visions?
http://www.truthorfables.com/Camden_Vision.htm
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The visions were not from God. The whole thing is just as phoney, the seventh day Sabbath teaching included, as the JWs teachings, the Mormons and a slew of many other false prophets during the time period know as "The great awakening". The three angels messages are preached as a final warning by the 144,00 as depicted in Revelation 14. That's why the chapter begins with them standing there. The time of the preaching of them by Miller and then the SDA pioneers was erronous. the time had not come to fruition yet. The pioneers just picked up on the error where Miller left off, and they were wrong AGAIN! There are many heartfelt messages brought out in the writings of SDA books attributed to Ellen White, but she gleaned vast ammounts of her stuff from other Spirit filled writers both earlier and contemporary. I have on my desk two such books written by Robert Boyd, "Grace and Truth" and The World's Hope", that were registered in the Library of Congress in 1873. They are very deep Spiritual writings. He was a Baptist preacher and author. Boyd had a five volume set that he sold in a package that was quite popular. When you read from them they are attended by the Holy Spirit's presence. Ellen white borrowed from these books. When you read them you see that he writes in a style that is quite like the style in some of Ellen white's books. You speak of the fraud of the White estate? You don't tell the half of it.
The beginning of the movement was like a new car that blew the engine because it had no oil in it (Holy Spirit). But the pioneers couldn't handle the disappointment so they got behind the car and decided to push it along themselves with EGW sitting in the drivers seat steering. When anyone questioned the strange scene they'd reply "It's okay, c'mon join us and help us push. Things are a little foggy under the hood, but look at this brand new beauty. We can't just junk it after all the work it took to get it no matter who thinks we're being foolish. Besides we'll be arriving at the destination it was intended for real soon, so there's nothing to worry about. Anyone who doesn't want to join in is going to miss out on the big picnic when we get there. If you'd give up ten percent of your income we'll let you help us push"
Cadge
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"Because in two days. the first of July, would commence the last six months of 1852, the end of the time of the seven drops of blood, when the sicke harvests of Revelation 14 were to commence."
CORRECTION: Date should be 1851
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So Tom... How is your NC Sabbath honoring God better than the OC Sabbath? Where is the BIG difference? I know, you've explained it before but the explanation has been buried in a lot of verbosity and its significance escapes me.
You say the NC Sabbath can be found in the life of Jesus. Fine - He did challenge the established order by "harvesting" and healing. So what does that give us as a new mandate for Sabbath keeping - we can eat; and doctors and nurses can work? What else is new?
Look, the Sabbath has two foundations in the OT - celebrate creation (Ex); and celebrate redemption (from the Egyptian slavery - Deut.) The fact that they celebrated it by "holy convocation" and a cession of work is connected to the way they celebrated all their HOLY DAYS; so it's not the METHOD of celebration that is significant for us, since connected to the rest of their rituals was sacrifices and ablutions of all kinds. The traditional SDA Sabbath keeping takes the culturally acceptable parts and dismisses the sacrifices and the punishments associated with breaking these Sabbaths and declares them "met by Christ" (no need for burnt offerings, and death sentences). But the rest of Sabbath keeping is left the same as far as it is convenient.
The NC Sabbath has become a celebration of redemption (as in Deut.) but it's redemption from sin and its consequences. Since the book of Hebrew was written for the Christian Jews, who were in constant danger by those calling them back to traditional Jewish practices, it is telling of the issues at the time. The Sabbath was/is both cultural and religious for the Jews as well as for SDAs). It's difficult for an SDA to stop "keeping" the Sabbath in any other way than what he's used to. Paul says "let each convinced in his own mind" whether to keep the day or not. It's not about keeping the day (as by rote) but the sentiments behind the "keeping". SDAs "keep" the Sabbath because ultimately it puts them in the "saved" category as per SDA eschatology. This is "working" to be saved. There is no doubt that a lot (if not most; if not all) SDAs feel that this obligates God to save them since they "are keeping the commandments of God; and have the 'testimony' of Jesus" (aka-EGW).
If nothing else, the book of Hebrew places the Sabbath for the Christian Jew (and SDAs) into a proper perspective. If you're hung up on "keeping" the Sabbath (culturally) then keep it at least for the right reason - celebration of redemption. But, the true REST of which the Sabbath was a shadow, is Christ. If you have the proper relationship to Christ and the cross, adding the Sabbath observance adds nothing. It may even be a hindrance since many are relying on Sabbath keeping to place them in a better position in the judgment.
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Great post sirge. I have to paste it into an E-mail and send it to my daughter who is still hanging on by a couple of threads.
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Sirje said: So Tom... How is your NC Sabbath honoring God better than the OC Sabbath? Where is the BIG difference? I know, you've explained it before but the explanation has been buried in a lot of verbosity and its significance escapes me.
Tom said: Ha! So the Gospel Sabbath is too confusing for those in the Adventist Community? Too many words. Too many conundrums and debates. Too much division and grumbling.
This is just what happened in the Gospel Story. This is a normative response to the genuine Sabbath teachings of Jesus.
Those that were the experts in the law and the Sabbath quickly became lost in raging debate over the Gospel Sabbath. This debate was there from the very start of Jesus Gospel ministry, and thus Jesus became famous for his new and strange way to explain the Sabbath.
John 7:12 There was much grumbling among the crowds concerning Him; some were saying, “He is a good man”; others were saying, “No, on the contrary, He leads the people astray.”
But Jesus also had a response to their Sabbath confusion: He defended his new Sabbath Reforms by declaring they came from God himself.
John 7:15 The Jews then were astonished, saying, “How has this man become learned, having never been educated?”
John 7:16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
John 7:17 “If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.
Those that honestly want to understand the Gospel, and the Gospel Sabbath, will be able to do so. This is a promise from Jesus. So take heart, -if you are honest that is. (Many do not want to learn. Many dislike anything that upsets their traditions. They will never understand.)
While you claim not to understand the NC Sabbath, the Jews played this same game. They too wanted to know how Jesus active, “working” Sabbath was better than their traditional non-working version from Moses?
Of course they did not like Jesus’ answer, which was to eliminate the Levites and let everyone be a priest in the Kingdom of God. They were not prepared for such a paradigm change and it must have seemed absurd and suicidal.
But they also knew that if the people embraced the teachings of Jesus, they would be unemployed and useless. So they plotted to kill Christ to protect their religious monopoly. It was all about the money for them. They wanted to keep their jobs, which could not happen if the teachings of Jesus became popular with the Jews.
The religious leaders did not want to give up their traditions or their privileges to the congregation. They wanted nothing to do with these crazy NC ideas that made no sense, like a leader must be like a servant, or it is fine to work on the Sabbath, or that the Temple and its system is no longer going to be a place of worship or doctrine. These views were abhorrent to them.
No Confusion About Jesus Working Sabbath
The Jews instantly understood that Jesus was promoting a working Sabbath. Moses said no work on the Sabbath, (except for the Levites), but Jesus says everyone can now work, even as God in heaven works on the Sabbath Day and instructed Jesus to do the same.
No work is very different from lots of work. But so too is a change from only the Levites being priests to everyone becoming a priest of God.
Jesus tried to explain his Gospel Sabbath and his Gospel, to the Sabbath keeping Jews; but you know the story. They rejected both. Just like many do today. We all need to make sure we do not make the same mistake!
Heb. 12:18 For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind,
Heb. 12:19 and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them.
Heb. 12:20 For they could not bear the command, “IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED.”
Heb. 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling.”
Heb. 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
Heb. 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Heb. 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
Heb. 12:25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven.
Sirje said: You say the NC Sabbath can be found in the life of Jesus.
Tom said: It is an irrefutable fact of theology that all four Gospels contain Jesus reformed Sabbath teaching for the church. The Gospels are full of this material.
Sirje said: Fine - He did challenge the established order by "harvesting" and healing. So what does that give us as a new mandate for Sabbath keeping - we can eat; and doctors and nurses can work? What else is new?
Tom said: Jesus did far more than challenge the status quo about harvesting or healing. He made a dramatic change to the Sabbath. The shift from a “no work” Sabbath to a working Sabbath, free of all the OC rules and regulations, was a theological sea change that was unfathomable for the legalistic Jews
Everything that the Jews said could not be done on the Sabbath, like work, or lighting a fire, cooking, traveling, etc., -Jesus disagreed with. He said it could all be done without guilt or sin.
The NC Sabbath is a working Sabbath for all, not just for the privileged priestly class. Thus Jesus makes it clear that it is NOT a sin to work at ones job on the Sabbath, as the SDA’s teach. Nor is it a sin to do most anything on the 7th day for those that follow the teachings of Christ.
So long as one is doing good on the Sabbath, they are free to do whatever, including all the things that Jesus did on that day.
No Christian is under the OC law, but they are under the Gospel teachings of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath and the co-creator of the world.
Sirje said: Look, the Sabbath has two foundations in the OT - celebrate creation (Ex); and celebrate redemption (from the Egyptian slavery - Deut.) The fact that they celebrated it by "holy convocation" and a cession of work is connected to the way they celebrated all their HOLY DAYS; so it's not the METHOD of celebration that is significant for us, since connected to the rest of their rituals was sacrifices and ablutions of all kinds.
Tom said: While the Old Covenant Sabbath dates back to ancient days, this is not the reason why a Christian should acknowledge or embrace the Gospel Sabbath. No. It is because we follow Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. Those that follow Jesus’ Gospel, will also follow his Gospel Sabbath. This is what he is teaching in the Gospels.
Those that think Jesus taught a Sunday Lord’s day, or a non working 7th day, like the SDA’s, are very wrong. So too those that think the weekly Sabbath has been removed or turned into an “every day” Sabbath of the mind.
The Sabbath is in the center of the Moral Law and thus it cannot be removed from either the Old or New Covenant. This is what the church, both RC and P, correctly teach. The problem is that they have developed the wrong view of the law, Gospel, and the Sabbath.
Sirje said: The traditional SDA Sabbath keeping takes the culturally acceptable parts and dismisses the sacrifices and the punishments associated with breaking these Sabbaths and declares them "met by Christ" (no need for burnt offerings, and death sentences). But the rest of Sabbath keeping is left the same as far as it is convenient.
Tom said: The SDA’s are following the legalistic Sabbath of the Jews. They even pretend that their pastors are like the Levites, and thus they can collect tithe and work on the Sabbath without sin. And so too can those in the medical profession. But all others have no such exclusion. They are sinning if they work on the Sabbath.
Jesus clearly repudiates this theology and promotes a VERY DIFFERENT, working Sabbath of the Priesthood. He is the high priest of the church as well as the Lord of the Sabbath and even the co Creator of the world. Those that claim to be his priests will embrace the priestly working Sabbath he taught.
There can be no Levites, much less tithe paying to them in the church. Nor can there be a Sabbath, which prevents work for some and promotes two classes in the church, one that can work on the Sabbath and one that cannot. This is so wrong and so against the Gospel that the SDA’s should hang their heads in shame.
The SDA’s have the correct day, (so too did the Jews), but the wrong Sabbath. The Sabbath of Moses is NOT the Gospel Sabbath of Jesus!
Silly SDA’s! They must all repent or their names will be removed from the book of life.
Sirje said: The NC Sabbath has become a celebration of redemption (as in Deut.) but it's redemption from sin and its consequences.
Tom said: The NC Sabbath, is meant to be a celebration of the Gospel. That is why it is so closely associated with Jesus Gospel ministry. That is why we see Paul in the book of Acts preaching to the Gentiles on the Sabbath. Today there is no valid NC Sabbath being practiced by any church or denomination. Least of all the SDA’s!
Those who said they understood the Sabbath the best, actually understand it the worst. Pitiful.
The NC Sabbath as understood by the church, is WRONG. It cannot be Sunday, nor can it be like the OC minded SDA’s. (Or those that say there is no real, weekly Sabbath.) At this point, there is no church that is following the Gospel Sabbath. This is the problem. Which means that one day, the truth will stun and shock everyone, even as it condemns all, exposing their theology as worthless myth and their leaders incompetent wolves.
The Laodicean Church has the WRONG GOSPEL and the WRONG SABBATH. Their understanding of the NC is full of error, myth and worthless tradition, as evidence by their obvious Sabbath confusion and error. Which is why they must repent or else. Even the SDA church must confess that they have embraced the WRONG Gospel and the WRONG Sabbath.
Today, the popular NC Sabbath and the false Gospels that are associated with these various versions of the Sabbath, is a death sentence. These phony, delusional Sabbaths are only a “celebration” of doom for those too blind to understand their error. Pity.
Sirje said: The Sabbath was/is both cultural and religious for the Jews as well as for SDAs).
Tom said: The Sabbath has a very long tradition. But that is no excuse to get it wrong today. Every church in the land has a distorted Gospel and a false Sabbath.
The SDA’s are the worst, because they are acting just like the Jews that killed Christ. While they arrogantly think they are correct about everything, they have become like the evil Pharisees in the Gospel Story, complete with the wrong Sabbath and murderous thoughts towards the Gospel reformers.
Sirje said; It's difficult for an SDA to stop "keeping" the Sabbath in any other way than what he's used to.
Tom said: Ha! This is what the Jews said! It was very difficult for them to make the transition from the OC to the NC and very few of them ever made it.
Then the Romans destroyed their nation, killing their priests and putting a bloody end to their Temple ceremonies. Here was the visible end of Old Covenant Judaism, and the Jews, which allowed the Gentiles to take over the church and invent their own, Gentile Sabbath, which we know today as the Sunday Lord’s Day.
So there is no question that the Jews loved their traditional OC Sabbath more than the Gospel Sabbath of Jesus. So they killed their Messiah, primarily over the Sabbath, and their Nation was destroyed as a result, and as a sign of the terror that will come to all that reject the Gospel.
What a colossal mistake! What a stupid and stubborn move on their part, and what a price they have paid over the years.
The Jews choose tradition over the teachings of Jesus and suffered the loss of their religion and Nation. What a sad story. Too bad so few understand this history lesson?
Ellen White lamented over and over that the SDA’s were very much like the Jews. She is correct. Pity.
Sirje said: Paul says, "let each convinced in his own mind" whether to keep the day or not.
Tom said: We have already dismissed this worthless hermeneutic called proof texting. Paul is not the Lord of the Sabbath, nor the head of the church. So why would you look to him instead of Jesus, the author of the Gospel Sabbath to define and explain it?
Paul has no authority to invent any Sabbath doctrine or to repudiate the teachings of Jesus, nor is this what he was doing, as some claim.
Those that think they can revise away the teachings of Jesus, about the Sabbath or anything else, have lost their minds and their salvation. Paul would never say that we are free to make up our own doctrine about anything, nor did he make such a statement as you pretend.
Proof texting is a very dangerous and dishonest method that is sure to confuse and mislead those that use it. It is far better to be honest with the Word and thus remain open to the Spirit of truth and the Gospel.
Sirje said: It's not about keeping the day (as by rote) but the sentiments behind the "keeping".
Tom said: The NC Sabbath is the OPPOSITE of “keeping the day by rote” as the SDA’s practice. It is all about following the Gospel teachings of Jesus and the apostles. Thus the active, working Sabbath of Jesus is very different from what you must imagine.
Moreover, Jesus version of Sabbath observance was viewed as Sabbath Breaking, NOT Sabbath keeping. Why? Because he promoted a very active, working Sabbath. So much so that they said he was a Sabbath breaker.
The NC Sabbath is not about keeping a day. Rather, it is about keeping, preaching, and hearing the Gospel and doing good. It is an active and joyful day for the saved, where there are few rules.
Sirje said: The SDA’s "keep" the Sabbath because ultimately it puts them in the "saved" category as per SDA eschatology. This is "working" to be saved.
Tom said: The SDA’s, like the Jews they emulate, are flaming legalists that think they are saved by law keeping. This is why they invented the IJ, to test their Sanctification and see if they were good enough to be saved. (It turns out they are not!)
As Paul points out in Galatians, this is absurd and cannot be tolerated in the church.
The SDA’s are like the Judaizers in the Gospel Story. They are not following Jesus with their OC Sabbath keeping, as they claim. But rather, they are following his enemies. They think like the Jews because they have the same wrong theology as the Jews. They have no idea how to think like Christ.
I repeat; The SDA’s are Judaizers. This is what they have always been, and what Ellen White tried to change in 1888. But she failed. Dr. Ford tried again in 1980. But he failed.
Everyone that has tried to reform the SDA’s, and bring them the Gospel, has failed. Tom Norris has tried, but he too has failed to wake up the corrupt and cultic SDA’s. They are like the legalistic, tithe paying, OC Sabbath keeping Jews. They might also be just as hopeless as the Jews. So be it.
However, the failure of the SDA’s excuses no one from moving forward to understand the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath. Just because the SDA’s have gone bad, the church still must understand eschatology and prepare for the Second Coming, as instructed by Christ.
God is hardly dependant on the double-talking, OC Sabbath keeping, SDA’s. They have proven themselves unworthy of heaven and thus others will take their place and move forward. This is how the post reformation church functions.
Sirje said: There is no doubt that a lot (if not most; if not all) SDAs feel that this obligates God to save them since they "are keeping the commandments of God; and have the 'testimony' of Jesus" (aka-EGW).
Tom said: Like I said, we all know the SDA’s are Judaizers. They think the Law is greater than the Gospel, which is why they act the way they do.
Unless these Pharisees repent and reform, they will continue to self-destruct for all to see. They have most everything wrong, including their version of the Sabbath.
Sirje said: If nothing else, the book of Hebrew places the Sabbath for the Christian Jew (and SDAs) into a proper perspective.
Tom said: Hebrews places JESUS in proper perspective. The book is not a treatise on the Sabbath.
However, it was written to Jews, and they had no problem understanding any reference by the author to the Sabbath.
Moreover, the author never thought that the Sabbath had been fulfilled by Christ and thus spiritualized away. In fact, he said there was still a Sabbath for the church to embrace, even as he later returns to this point in Hebrews 10.
Moreover, because Hebrews shows Jesus as the Creator, it is no surprise that the author supports the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Jesus and carefully states that there is a future, weekly Sabbath for the church to understand and embrace.
Heb. 4:9 So there remains a (weekly) Sabbath Day for the people of God.
Heb. 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
Heb. 10:24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
Heb. 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
Note the point about assembling together.
What day do you think these JEWISH Christians would choose to meet? And how often did they meet?
Answer: All Jews meet every 7th day. Every day of the year. The writer of Hebrews was encouraging them to keep doing this.
Note also the point about doing “good deeds” with the “assembling together” on the Gospel Sabbath. This is the very same term that Jesus uses to describe his reformed Sabbath:
Matt. 12:12 “How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
Let all understand that Heb 4:9 is exclusively about the weekly Sabbath. It was written in such a manner, to the Jewish Christians, so as to be perfectly clear what the author meant and what he did not.
There is no basis for anyone to say that this passage is talking about a spiritual, everyday Sabbath for the church. Or that it is the basis from removing the Sabbath from the duty of the church, or changing it to Sunday. Such interpretations are impossible and wrong.
Sirje said: If you're hung up on "keeping" the Sabbath (culturally) then keep it at least for the right reason - celebration of redemption.
Tom said: All Christians have practiced a weekly Sabbath through the ages. This is part of the tradition, culture, and practice of the church since the very beginning in the 1st century.
So we are not inventing a new doctrine for the church, just correcting an error that has been staring everyone in the face for centuries.
The SDA’s came along and promoted Sabbath Reform, meaning from Sunday to Saturday. In their ignorance, they failed to understand that there is more to Sabbath Reform than just changing the day. Much more.
Sirje said: But, the true REST of which the Sabbath was a shadow, is Christ.
Tom said: For the Jews, the Sabbath was a weekly memorial to the Creation Story. This is the primary and ancient meaning, and it will always be.
In the OT, the Sabbath points to the Jewish God as the Creator. It is a fundamental part of the Hebrew Epic.
In the NT, the Reformed Sabbath also points to Jesus as the co-Creator of the world and the Son of God, one that has the authority to teach how the church is to view the Gospel Sabbath. Thus the Jewish Epic is expanding in the NC and there is a Sabbath for this part of the story as well.
Remember, both Covenants are Jewish. And this is why the Sabbath is active in each covenant. But the OC Sabbath is very different from the NC Sabbath. While these points may seem difficult for many to understand, they are true nonetheless.
The Gospel Sabbath is meant to re-enforce the Gospel teachings of Jesus. In fact, this was his special day to preach the Gospel, heal the people, and teach them about a new kind of Sabbath. Both his Gospel and his REFORMED Sabbath stunned the people, even as it divided and confused them. And so it does today.
Those that want to understand the NC Sabbath, must turn to the Lord of the Sabbath and learn from him.
The Gospels are full of Jesus New Covenant Sabbath teaching. There is no excuse for anyone to boycott his teaching or to pretend it does not matter. Those who play such games are not real Christians. They are pretenders.
Sinners are only saved by the Gospel, nothing else. Not by the OC Sabbath or the NC Sabbath that Jesus features in all four Gospels.
However, the kind of Sabbath one embraces, indicates the quality of their Gospel. Those who have an allegorical Sabbath have the same type of worthless, spiritualized Gospel.
Those that have the OC Sabbath are of course Judaizers and legalists. They have a very false Gospel.
The Sunday Sabbath keepers also have very confused, wrong and reckless Gospel.
So be careful how you view the Sabbath. It is often a direct reflection of how a person views the Gospel. Those that understand the Gospel, will happily and thankfully embrace the REFORMED Sabbath of Jesus. Those that don’t will not understand it.
Sirje said: If you have the proper relationship to Christ and the cross, adding the Sabbath observance adds nothing. It may even be a hindrance since many are relying on Sabbath keeping to place them in a better position in the judgment.
Tom said: Those who have a “proper” relationship to Christ will follow what he teaches in all things. Including the NC, REFORMED, 7th day Sabbath.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
The Sabbath is not salvific. But it is part of the context and doctrine of the Gospel Story. It can no more be overlooked than any other major teaching of Jesus.
Those that play fast and loose with the Word, openly repudiating Jesus’ Gospel and Sabbath teachings, are not following Jesus or fooling Heaven.
The teachings of Jesus are very different from what most professed Christians assume, and this is why so few will be saved. The have followed a false Christ with a distorted Gospel and a wrong Sabbath. They could have opened the Bible and easily understood that Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath had they cared enough for Eternal Life.
But many are too busy or just too stubborn to admit their errors and repent. Pity.
The Gospel Sabbath is from God. Not Moses.
Jesus claims that he was sent to earth to explain the Gospel Sabbath to the Jews and to the Church.
In fact, from the very beginning of Jesus’ Gospel ministry, his controversial and very different Sabbath took center stage.
Jesus Gospel Sabbath was so central to his teachings and to the Gospel Story, that it is repeated in all four Gospels.
It is why the Jews wanted to kill Christ, even as many people thought Jesus was the Messiah because of what he did on the Sabbath.
Read the following passage in John, one of many such passages in the NT about the Sabbath, and see what a major role Jesus new Sabbath doctrine has in the NC.
Understand that Jesus claims his REFORMED Sabbath is from God, his father, v16, and that if “anyone” is willing to follow him, they will come to understand his controversial, and very different Sabbath.
Note the division, fear, and curiosity that swirled around the Gospel Sabbath. Note how Jesus defended his NC Sabbath:
John 7:11 So the Jews were seeking Him at the feast and were saying, “Where is He?”
John 7:12 There was much grumbling among the crowds concerning Him; some were saying, “He is a good man”; others were saying, “No, on the contrary, He leads the people astray.”
John 7:13 Yet no one was speaking openly of Him for fear of the Jews.
John 7:14 But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and began to teach.
John 7:15 The Jews then were astonished, saying, “How has this man become learned, having never been educated?”
John 7:16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
John 7:17 “If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.
John 7:18 “He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who is seeking the glory of the One who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.
John 7:19 “Did not Moses give you the Law, and yet none of you carries out the Law? Why do you seek to kill Me?”
John 7:20 The crowd answered, “You have a demon! Who seeks to kill You?”
John 7:21 Jesus answered them, “I did one deed, and you all marvel.
John 7:22 “For this reason Moses has given you circumcision (not because it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and on the Sabbath you circumcise a man.
John 7:23 “If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath?
John 7:24 “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
John 7:25 So some of the people of Jerusalem were saying, “Is this not the man whom they are seeking to kill?
John 7:26 “Look, He is speaking publicly, and they are saying nothing to Him. The rulers do not really know that this is the Christ, do they?
Read this passage over and over until you can see that Jesus reformed Sabbath comes from God.
When Jesus says in v 16: “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.” He is talking about the Gospel Sabbath. He is talking about this working, active, priestly, New Covenant, Sabbath for the church.
Let all be careful not to challenge either the authority or doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath.
Those that understand the Gospel, will also understand the Gospel Sabbath, even as a false Gospel will be associated with a false Sabbath.
There is only one Gospel and one Gospel Sabbath. Rev 18 shows a time when this knowledge becomes universal, overturning the religious traditions of all Laodiceans, making every church in the world look foolish and corrupt.
Thanks to Dr. Ford, many in the Adventist Community have a much better view of the Gospel. Now they need to also understand the Gospel Sabbath and church organization much better, even as they must also better comprehend eschatology and move forward with their necessary apocalyptical mission.
Cadge said: Tom, Why do you even waste the time parlaying with people about the validity of the SDA church? It's quite clear that the whole beginnings were of a deception.
Tom said: Cadge, you are not paying attention. Every church in the land, including the SDA’s is full of false doctrine and arrogance. None of them are “valid” or true, including the wretched SDA’s. The SDA’s might even be the worst of all. So you must misunderstand some things. The SDA church is a wretched church, full of blasphemy, corruption, and false doctrine.
I have no smooth message from them as you assume. Their leaders need to confess, repent, and reform.
This is what the LM, which is the real PAJ, is saying. This is also what I am endorsing.
However, just because there is so much error in the SDA church, or in other denominations, it does not follow that there was never any truth in these religious communities. That is not true. There is truth in all of them, including the Jews, which is where the church comes from, and the RC church, which is where the Protestants come from.
The Adventist Movement has a credible Protestant pedigree and thus it plays a valid and important role in church history. So too the SDA’s. The fact that there is also lots of error is beside the point.
The fact that the SDA’s have gone bad, like all the others, does not nullify the doctrinal truths that are contained in the Three Angels Messages. Nor does it mean that the church no longer needs to preach the Gospel or prepare for the Day of Judgment, which is the Second Coming.
Let everyone understand; The 3rd Angels Message has terminated in disaster and embarrassment. Traditional Adventism was not correct, and has subsequently failed. Thus the SDA’s have reached the end of the line, unless they repent and re-organize.
If the Advent Movement wants to go forward, they must repent for their many errors, starting with 1888 and Glacier View, and move forward to develop the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18.
This is the goal of Adventist Reform. This is the next stage of Adventism.
Without the SDA’s and the Millerites before them, and the SDB’s and the Baptists, and the Methodists, Lutherans, etc, etc, there could be no 4th Angels Message.
All the truths, from every religious community, will be contained in the final Gospel Message that will shake the world.
Do not underestimate the many contributions that have been made, even by the Adventists, which allow us today, to reach such a higher level Gospel knowledge and comprehension.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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