Leaving the SDA Church

tom_norris · 03-11-09 1:32 pm

Mr. Norris, First let me thank you for all the information you have supplied to me and the great help you have given me in my journey out of Adventism.

I just left the church, due to my rejection of the main doctrines such as the IJ and the Sabbath Mark of the Beast issues and Ellen White and her role shaping these doctrines for this church.

However now I find myself sort of lost in my spiritual trip on this earth. I have gotten very frustrated, and disheartened as far as being a member of another church.

I believe in Christ’s atoning and complete sacrifice on the cross and believe that by accepting freely that He died on the cross for my sins and that through him I am saved if I do his will here on earth.

My wife is a very convicted SDA and we have a young baby on the way. I met her, fell in love and partly because she was adamant that her future husband be a SDA, I joined the church not delving into the religion and these doctrines that I cannot in good faith follow.

I find myself very scared, frustrated and even questioning myself and my decision on leaving this church, although when I search and pray the questions go away and I am assured that I have done the right thing.

I have met a lot of pressure from the pastors and have been given the old guilt trip sermon in order to get me back into the fold. The last one was from the head pastor who called me intellectually dishonest and not accepting the “good side” of Adventism, and that my salvation is in jeopardy for not accepting Adventism.

Again I thank you for your knowledge on the subject of Adventism and appreciate your words for they are backed up by scripture and not by your own thoughts or ideas like the Adventist church does.

My question really is this. Where can I find a church that teaches the unadulterated gospel of Christ that is free from unbiblical doctrines?

I don’t want to float around without any spiritual guidance or fellowship with other bible believing Christians.

Can you help?

Thanks again and may the Lord always bless your work...

In Christ,

Joe
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Tom Norris replies: Joe, thank you for sharing your experience with Adventism. Millions have gone through this same journey of spiritual discovery and disappointment. Legions have reached the same conclusion as you have, so you are not alone.

So where is the true church today? Where can one go to hear the words of Eternal Life?

Answer: There is no such church or denomination today. How sad.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

This is why the Laodicean Message has no exclusion for the SDA’s or anyone else. The entire organized church, both RC and P, are judged to be spiritually blind and doctrinally corrupt at the end of time. This is the real Pre-Advent Judgment of the church.

2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

What has been foretold in prophecy is now an empirical fact for all to see. The last church is the worst church. They are clueless about the Gospel and the Word. Sad but true.

2Tim. 3:1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.

2Tim. 3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,

2Tim. 3:3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good.

2Tim. 3:4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God.

2Tim. 3:5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power.

In fact, things are so bad, in all church bodies today, that some are predicting the collapse of the Evangelical Movement. This could be very true, because they are just as confused and wrong, as are the SDA’s.

See: The coming evangelical collapse

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html

But God has not left the real church alone, which is defined as people, not organizations. It is individuals that comprise the real church as they embrace the Gospel. People are the church.

1Pet. 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

The church is NOT an organization with flashy publications, and a lust for Empire building, nor is it even a building of bricks and mortar. Sinners are only saved “individually” and not because they are members of any organized church. People are the church.

Rom. 12:5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

1Cor. 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

1Cor. 12:27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.

1Cor. 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

Eph. 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,

Eph. 2:20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

Eph. 2:21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord.

Eph. 2:22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Those that embrace the Gospel are saved directly by God, through faith in Christ. There is no need for any religious organization to be involved whatsoever. In fact, this is the problem today. Organized religion has gone very corrupt. They are not saving souls, but leading them into perdition. Money and power is the real prize the leaders seek, thus heaven is just being used as a ploy, like a carrot, to deceive the gullible.

Those that take the Gospel seriously, will not compromise the fundamentals that assure them Eternal Life. With the Word in hand, none should be afraid to stand up to any and all forms of false religion. This is the hallmark of the Protestant Faith. This is what Jesus and the Apostles did, and so too the Reformers and many that followed them, including the Adventists.

So the Protestant Movement must go forward to completion. There is one final protest against organized religion yet to emerge. Prior to the Second Coming, the Gospel will be correctly proclaimed with power and conviction. All those that seek Gospel Truth will join in this final Gospel Revelation.

In conclusion, the Word is still available to all, and so too the Holy Spirit, which gives gifts only to individuals, not organizations. Stand by the Gospel, and save yourself and your family. Do NOT let organized religion control your mind or steal your claim to Eternal Life.

Those that want to find Gospel truth, will find it, even as those who are too lazy or foolish, will not.

Matt. 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

In fact, with the Internet, it will be easy for those that embrace the Gospel to find each other. Thus the real “church” will once again emerge to meet in homes, avoiding the hype of organized and false religion. At some point, a grass roots Gospel Movement will emerge as a backlash within corrupt Laodicea. The sooner the better as far as I am concerned.

Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

Rev. 18:2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.

Rev. 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues.

One day, when the Gospel is better understood, it will be easy to find a local group of Gospel believers. But not now. There is no such place as far as I am aware. All is confusion and chaos within the church, and much false doctrine.

In fact, things are so bad in the SDA Church, that you can't get a straight answer out of any Pastor or leader. They all refuse to discuss doctrine because they don’t know what they are talking about. So their apologists run away and refuse to study or discuss the Gospel in public. What kind of church is that? Not a real one. Not one that follows the teaching of Jesus or the apostles. It is more like the RCC or even Communism, where those at the top must control everything.

Do not misunderstand; there is great truth in SDA theology, “even as there is in the theology of others”. The Three Angels Messages is the correct prophetic path for the church in the last days, including the misunderstood doctrine of the NC Sabbath. But the unwillingness of the SDA’s to admit their mistakes and repent, greatly reduces their contribution. In fact, if they don’t soon repent and reform, others will come along and complete their prophetic mission.

So you are correct to stop supporting the corrupt SDA church. Tithe is a very false doctrine and so too is this nonsense about the IJ, and Ellen White and many other things that they teach. Those that seek truth will not put up with such gross error and fraud. It is the duty of all to repudiate a false Gospel and make no compromise with error, myth, or tradition.

Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

I suggest that you use the Internet to keep in touch with likeminded individuals that are also seeking truth. Besides, all it takes is a few Gospel people coming together, to form a church. Which is why the church started in people’s homes and thus spread throughout the known world.

1Cor. 16:19 The churches of Asia greet you. Aquila and Prisca greet you heartily in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

Col. 4:15 Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church that is in her house.

Philem. 1:2 and to Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in your house:

No doubt this approved practice should be implemented today. Any home can become a church, even as those that have been given the gifts of the Spirit are to lead out in such a venue.

Matt. 18:19 “Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.

Matt. 18:20 “For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for All Experts.com & Adventist Reform

Last edited by tom_norris (02-10-10 9:16 pm)

bob_2 · 03-11-09 3:06 pm

Tom, this might help him also:

My wife and I still have our names on the SDA books but are members at a Reformed Presbyterian PCA church. This, Tom might not be for you if Calvinism grates against you since the Westminister Confession is their "statement of faith" essentially. They will not let anyone become an elder or deacon without their doctrines being accepted publicly at their ordination.

One church that has gone through a major overhaul is the Worldwide Church of God. They have gone from cultic to mainstream Christianity. I believe what they teach is New Covenant Theology, although they don't call it that. They worship on Saturday or Sunday depending on the congregation, convenience or conviction. The denomination believes that Jesus is the True Rest as Col 2:16,17 does.

Baptist Churches usually have the most uplifting services, IMO, because of the music. However, beware of the Rapture and such doctrines that may creep into sermons. I would say, that most "sensitive" Baptist churches keep the controversial things to their Sunday School and our of their sermons.

The hardest thing for my wife and I was feeling comfortable worshipping on a day other than Saturday. When the NCT approach to the Sabbath was introduced to me, I was able to worship at another church without a problem.

Word of advice, go into this experience to learn not to convert others. Pick a church like PCA that stands for something, so you can learn something even if you don't agree, and don't get argumentative, but ask only for clarification so you understand their belief. Once you feel they have taught you all they can, move on, UNLESS, you receive a blessing from their worship service.

Although I differ with Dale Ratlaff, his book Sabbath in Crisis (now Sabbath in Christ) will help with the strange feeling worshipping on Sunday. Afterall, the Gospel is about Jesus not a day, right????

Ever looked at Calvary Chapel?? They are so close to Adventist beliefs except Sabbath and EGW it is scary. http://www.calvarychapel.com/

God Bless in this next part of your journey. Last words of advice, EGW is irrelevant/devotional. Sabbath is now Jesus Christ. Col 2:16, 17. Look at some of the Non-denominational churches that aren't too Covenantal or Dispensational in their Theology. New Covenant Theology is on a rise, just beware those that wish to Calvinize it, or Progressively Dispensationalize it. NCT is beautiful by itself:

http://www.godsgwg.com/Godsgwg/Art-NCT% … ctives.htm

(Message edited by Bob_2 on March 11, 2009)

elaine · 03-11-09 6:19 pm

If one is looking for a church that has all the true doctrines, stop searching: there's no such thing.

If, however, you want to feel welcomed and "at home" visit several churches that seem to have the basic beliefs that you have and where you can grow and develop Christian gifts.

The erroneous idea that God can only properly be worshiped on one certain day of the week is clearly false. God is open to our worship always.

Adventists may try to put the "guilt trip" on you for failure to "keep" the Sabbath (find one person who says he keeps it perfectly and you've got a first rate liar on your hand), but if that were true, few people would ever be saved. God wants an honest heart and mind, and you must maintain your own integrity of belief.

bob · 03-11-09 7:11 pm

Bob and Elaine, I thank you for your from the heart posts. If the church you are attending teaches the simple plan of salvation, preaches Jesus as the lamb who died for all the World, welcomes you in fellowship and doesn't use mind control, you can live with some minor differences in theology.

I would like to give some examples of the use of mind control. The Church of Christ tells its members it sinful to attend other churches. They do not allow instruments in their churches and tell their members that churches that do are from the devil. That is only the beginning. The Church of God (Holy Rollers) teach that it is wrong for women to cut their hair or wear pants or bathing suits without pants. All this is mind control. I would not attend any church that teaches extra Biblical doctrine. They are cults and once they get you in their grasp it is very hard to break out. Some have, praise the Lord.

elaine · 03-11-09 9:33 pm

It is very true. I am very fortunate to be able to attend an SDA church that welcomes everyone who wants to attend--no questions asked. There are all races and people and women in pants, people in jeans, and shorts in the summer. No one is turned away who wishes to worship with us.

bob · 03-12-09 1:27 pm

Elaine said:
Adventists may try to put the "guilt trip" on you for failure to "keep" the Sabbath (find one person who says he keeps it perfectly and you've got a first rate liar on your hand), but if that were true, few people would ever be saved. God wants an honest heart and mind, and you must maintain your own integrity of belief.

Exactly Elaine, but this is what the SDA Church portrays when it says "keep". That is a misnomer, an utter impossibility. I could live with the word "commemorate or celebrate", but to tell the World that they must keep Sabbath because it is a requirement for salvation is totally false. I can't support an institution that teaches falsehood like that. There is too much scriptural evidence that the Old Covenant is not the Christian's guide. Keeping Sabbath was an Israelite thing. They failed from the get-go.

hfsturges · 09-14-10 12:05 pm

Tom,
I just came upon this thread, and read the letter from Joe. It appears that he has been greatly influenced by you, and he probably represents many other people who have followed the same path. Tom, that lays a heavy burden upon you if these people are lost.

There is a good possibility that some of these people (that leave the SDA church because of your writing) would have left anyway, but if only one person has lost his way because of your persuasive writing, you will bear a heavy responsibility.

Now I can guess your response: "The SDA church is hopelessly corrupt and headed for hell. Better to get out."

If that is what you feel, then it is your responsibility to get out yourself. Don't pretend to be SDA. Don't pretend to "reform the SDA church" as a loyal SDA. You can join some other church and still participate on this forum all you want (I think), but without the deception that you are a loyal SDA.

I believe, and many others do too, that the Seventh-day Adventist church is the Remnant Church of God, and that God loves this church and that He will save "a people" in this church to meet Him when He comes again. That is my belief.

I only ask that you look again at your "reforms," pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit, and be honest in the path you follow, and what you advise for others.

Yitzak · 09-14-10 12:31 pm

Brother Sturges-

If Tom is correct in his beliefs about the church, then he is worthy of praise and any responsibility he bears will redound to the good. He seems to sincerely believe that his reforms are for the good of the church, and this puts him in league with reformers throughout history (some misguided, some accurate- being a reformer, or not, doesn't seem to have any bearing on the truthfulness of the reforms proposed).

Of course, if you are correct about the church, then yes, he bears a responsibility. But then, if the Catholic Church is correct, then Martin Luther may have some problems in the Judgement.

It's also completely consistent to strive to "reform" an institution and also remain a member of the institution.

I am probably somwhere between you two. I consider myself an adventist, but there are a whole host of reforms I'd like to see in the church. I agree wholeheartedly with probably five or six of Tom's proposed reforms, I disagree with a couple, and then there are 3 or 4 I either don't understand, or don't care enough about to form an opinion about.

I'll also point out that there are wholly faithful adventists who don't in fact believe that salvation depends on membership in the church. From that perspective, leaving the church only matters, if it's a step toward leaving God. I left the church, came back, left again, came back again, and arrived where I am now. My leaving the church at least temporarily was part of the process of growing closer to Christ, for me, so I really don't think it's as black and white as you suggest.

I have to say, and again, this may be heresy to you, but I wouldn't leave a congregation or a denomination over some doctrinal dispute, especially about an abstract concept that doesn't have bearing on my day to day life. So, my advice to the letter writer quoted would be to pray that he can find a congregation where he and his wife are both comfortable, and to do all he can to be faithful to God and at the same time a good husband to his wife.

There are many SDA congregations (you may think this bad, I think it good), where Ellen White is rarely mentioned, and people don't deal a great deal with the issue of IJ and the last days. Instead, they're taken up with such trivialities as God's will for their lives, and spend their free time not debating theology but feeding the homeless, running tutoring programs and the like. (there are of course many non-SDA congregations that behave similarly, and I'm blessed to also be a member of one of these- yes, I attend a lot of church). I'd council the brother, if he reads this, to focus on God's will for his actions, and for how he should treat his wife- his first responsibility on this earth- and find a group of Christians of whatever denomination(s) that support him in this. Given his wife's beliefs, it would be ideal if this was an SDA church. But to me, that's a practical issue, and has nothing to do with salvation.

I suspect we may not agree on this, but just wanted to put my own thoughts out there.

Sister Elaine has it about right, I think. Although she's much more concise and thus better-written than my ramblings.

elaine · 09-14-10 10:05 pm

Since Bible reading is actively encouraged in most churches, but especially the SDA, it is the one reason I left the SDA church as after much reading and studying the New Testament, which is the testament to Christ, I could no longer hold the belief that Adventism claims to be the "truth" as a Christian denomination.

Adventism became a hybrid of Judaism and Christianity, and resulting in neither. Its major unique doctrines are directly from the OT: Sabbath, clean-unclean food, tithing and the 2300 days from Daniel: all from the Hebrew Bible.

Adventists have rejected the Pauline Gospel which is the first declaration of the meaning of Christianity following Pentecost. Paul wrote that there are no longer barriers between Jews and Gentile and men and women, slaves and free. Yet the two main barriers preventing communication between Jews and Gentile were re-erected by Sabbath and clean/unclean foods which prevent the hospitality table between peoples. No one can show from the NT that Sabbath, tithe, unclean meats and the deciphering of numbers and beasts in Revelation have any relevance to salvation, and were never preached by Christians during the first century.

Adventists call themselves Christian, but in truth, they have much more in common with Jewish Sabbath, Kosher laws and their very unique interpretation of D&R--none of which are ever mentioned in the NT as being mandated for salvation.

hfsturges · 09-14-10 11:12 pm

Yitzak,

You may be right in your assessment of Tom and me. We definitely disagree on several areas. However, recently I have noted what seems to me to be a moderating, at least in rhetoric, of Tom's writing. I appreciate that. I have also noted Ton's defense of gospel issues. I will even go so far as to say that Tom means well.

Regarding Tom as a serious "reformer" of the church, it is a little unrealistic for him to attack several key doctrines and practices all by himself; when these doctrines and practices are supported by the scholars and members of the whole church. It is arrogant for him to think he is right and everyone else is wrong. Is he a Martin Luther? Well, Martin Luther had the support of the University of Wittenberg, Frederick the Elector of Saxony, and a many other people. If Luther did not have this support, he would have been dealt with as Huss and Jerome.

Tom needs to gather this support, and then dialogue with the Biblical Research Institute, and scholars at the Seminary.

I don't think he would get far. The doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church have been extensively worked over to make a complete picture of God's plans for this church. Adventist understanding on end time events is especially strong. For Tom or anyone else to try to pick out pieces here and there would mar the picture and cause endless problems.

Is leaving the church the same as leaving God? Please listen carefully. The great commission of Matthew 28:19-20 tells us to go, teach, baptize, and teach. This is how the church is built up. See Acts 2,3. The church is the bride of Christ. He loves the church. He wants His people to work together to build up His body -- another term for His church. Maybe some people need to leave the church, I don't know. But I think it is always at serious risk for their salvation to do so.

Is doctrine important? Yes! A common belief is what holds a church together, and makes it possible to work together. The practical aspects of the gospel are also important, and the community of the believers is important. Yet all this is built on one's concept of who God is.

Feeding the homeless and helping the needy is important. Is it the primary focus for the work of the church? I don't think so. If a church is built on solid belief and a relation to God, they will do these things. But social work will not bring about holiness in a person or the church.

You may disagree, but in the paradigm of the Great Controversy between Christ and Satan, we understand that human history is moving to a climax. It will yet be proved that Satan is evil, and that God is merciful and just. Last day events are critical in this scenario.

I have referred to your post in making these comments, but I beg forgiveness if it is just rambling. I do pray that God will speak through our dialogues.

hfsturges · 09-14-10 11:26 pm

Elaine,

Is Adventism a hybrid of Judaism and Christianity? A rather strange comment coming from you, who so often will defend Buddhism and Hinduism. What is wrong with Judaism?

I believe that an understanding of the Everlasting Covenant of God (also the New Covenant and the Abrahamic Covenant) will lead one to understand God's workings with Israel. When Israel rejected and crucified her Messiah, and continued to reject Him after His undeniable resurrection, and to stone Stephen because they could not refute his statements -- They were rejected as the Covenant people of God. All this happened at the end of the 490 years prophesy of Daniel 9:24.

Romans 11 speaks of the natural branches being broken from the tree, and the wild branches being grafted in. A metaphor for the Gentile church to take over the responsibilities and privileges of the covenant. Galatians 3:29 states, "If ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

So is the Adventist Church a mix of Judaism and Christianity? It is not a MIX. It is a rejection of the rituals and legalism of old Judaism and an acceptance and continuation of the covenant and the gospel focus given to Abraham and continued till Christ comes again.

Yitzak · 09-15-10 12:05 am

Brother Sturges, not at all, you're not rambling, and I appreciate the thoughtful reply.

I probably should have been more precise. I spoke of leaving a church when I meant leaving a denomination. I meant church as in denomination (and secondarily as a local congregation), not the church which is more universal and includes all followers of Christ. I don't see the church in the Bible as synonomous with the SDA denomination, although I believe it contains many adventists.

Even when my views were in line with the mainstream version of adventism, it was always my understanding that the church included those who genuinely followed Christ, and that in the end time, many who are currently adventist would leave Christ and many who were not would be gathered to Him. I always took the important thing here to be the gathering to Christ, rather than official church membership.

And, I agree that doctrine is important, but I maintain that I wouldn't leave a fellowship because of it. The Adventist church I attend contains a variety of views, some of which I agree with and some I don't. It contains people who consider vegetarianism a prerequisite to salvation, and people like me who don't. I don't feel an urge to kick them out, and I would be highly surprised if they wanted to kick me out. Each of us assume the Spirit will work on the other, and I hope that it does. But for some of them, it is a very fundamental doctrine. Ditto the place of the writings of Ellen White.

If I waited for a church that agreed exactly with me on every doctrinal point, I'd never attend anything. I suspect this is true of most adventist and adventist attenders. I'd be in even worse shape if my relationship with Christ depended on such agreement.

I'd distinguish between what I would consider fundamental and what I would consider less fundamental. My list of fundamentals is very short. It makes for a happier and more harmonious life for me at least. I also find myself less and less interested in what seem to me to be more arcane points of theology. I understand that it's important to others, but for me, it feels like much more of an intellectual contest/exercise than anything that relates to what I consider the fundamental questions I need to ask myself each day: what is God's will for me today? How should I behave? Am I treating His image in myself and others the way I ought?

Please don't take any of the above as criticism. I am not sure I agree with your equation of "the church" as spoken of in the new testament with "the SDA denomination"- although in terms of the commands for how the church ought to behave with each other, it's important for any congregation that considers itself Christian.

tom_norris · 10-03-10 10:25 am

Hub said: Tom, I just came upon this thread, and read the letter from Joe. It appears that he has been greatly influenced by you, and he probably represents many other people who have followed the same path.

Tom said: The clear articulation of Gospel truth and church history has a dramatic effect on those tired of the double-talk and status quo of Traditional Adventism.

Those that seek a better Gospel path within the SDA Community, are finding one. However, those that refuse new truth, and try to block Adventist Reform, are showing their true colors. They are great Pharisees and hypocrites.

Matt. 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Matt. 7:8 “For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Matt. 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Now that Dr. Ford has retired, and the so-called SDA Evangelicals, led by Richard Fredericks, have made fools of themselves by misunderstanding the Gospel and the Sabbath, someone has to keep pushing Adventist Reform forward. Many SDA’s are exhausted from the endless division, debate, and double-talk, and thus some are thankful that Tom Norris has stayed around to explain the facts. Too bad you are not one of them.

So yes indeed, a new path has emerged, I suggest that you pay careful attention and not fight against much needed Gospel Reform.

Prov. 10:17 He is on the path of life who heeds instruction,
But he who ignores reproof goes astray.

Matt. 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Matt. 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

There are a great number; even a majority of SDA’s that no longer think their church is credible, honest, or true. Many 10’s of thousands are feeling very confused about Adventist theology, fed up with the years of double-talk, division, and money grubbing through the false doctrine of tithe. I agree with them, and I support their search for truth and straight talk.

Here is a typical and recent e-mail from a SDA:

Question for Tom Norris:

“The last 2 years I've been searching and reading and praying to understand the uncomfortable feeling that I've been struggling with for more than 5 years within the SDA church.

I was born almost on the church steps, my father was a minister of the 'gospel' (albeit in an independent ministry), and my mom was the antithesis of the preacher's wife. We grew up living a lifestyle that has been so ingrained in my life that it is hard to believe or think anything else.

How do I know what is really the truth about Sabbath keeping, tithing, salvation, and even the judgment? The even scarier thing is that I have a child (with another planned in the future) and I don't know what to teach them! I don't know!

All I know is that I don't feel right in the churches that I attend. I only feel free when I read and pray on my own, but I still long for a worship experience that defines what I am coming to learn in my studies.

Sometimes I don't know what to believe. How do you worship? Where do you go? How and what do you teach your children?

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … 0/x-12.htm

I hear from SDA’s all the time complaining about the church and asking for advice. Why? Because there is a continuing crisis, an ongoing schism, within the Adventist Community, and the leaders are very blind, dishonest, and foolish to ignore these fatal problems, which have become so obvious to so many.

Here is another e-mail:

Mr. Norris I just want to thank you for taking the time to answer all of my questions.

My husband and I will certainly research all of the links and information presented.
We have truly been questioning so much of the practices that we are taught to follow that we thought we were the only ones!!

Thank you again and please keep us in your prayers as we search for God's total truth. God bless and keep you always, The Brown's.

Angela Brown
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I could go on and on, showing you one member after another having serious doctrinal issues with SDA theology. For the most part, these people know very little about 1888 or church history. They were not around during the past debates about RBF in the 1970’s, nor do they know much of anything about Dr. Ford and Glacier View, which took place in 1980.

So why, after so many years, are the SDA’s still confused, divided, and dysfunctional? Why are so many, always ready to leave?

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ndance.htm

Answer: Because Glacier View was the wrong path for the Advent Movement. At that time, the incompetent leaders refused to admit their error about the IJ and the Gospel, and repent. And this great mistake has led to more confusion and additional errors, like Pluralism, and now things are worse than before Glacier View. There is no unity, much less a coherent, credible theological package left in Adventism.

Today, anyone can go online and become introduced to, and overwhelmed with, the many errors of SDA theology and management. Thus it only takes a few minutes to hear a flood of well-deserved condemnation against SDA theology and their dishonest leaders. So there is nowhere to hide anymore.

Today, SDA theology is very dishonest and dysfunctional. It makes no sense in the 21st century, nor can it be defended by rational, honest Christians. It does not make any difference if the Denomination spends hundreds of millions of dollars on Public Relations, and broadcasts Doug Bachelors confusion 24/7. It will not matter. The SDA theological Package, known as the 3rd Angels Message, has crashed and burned for all to see. This outdated and dishonest paradigm no longer functions. It has terminated, Its’ expiration date is past. It is time to admit the obvious and move forward.

Leadership Delusion

It’s as if the SDA’s are trying to sell black and white TV’s to the public, when brilliantly colored flat screens are the new standard. So rather than update their outdated product, they spend all their resources trying to convince the world that their old brand of TV is still the way to go. Thus, they deny the facts and pretend the critics are all wrong. With a straight face they continue to claim that their laughable product is not only adequate and up to date, but that it is superior to all other competitors. Silly SDA’s. Such delusion will be fatal unless they repent and reform.

The SDA’s have clearly lost their ability to reason and think. They are spiritually blind; making fools of themselves by trying to pretend their doctrines are state of the art, when they are anything but that. So what is the point of all this pretending and lying? This is not a rational or honest solution. Thanks to the Internet, the latest generation of new members has already discovered what previous ones know; that SDA theology does not hold up.

The ones who join innocently, not knowing about the past 40 years of debate, and the exile of Dr. Ford, and the corruption of the GC leaders, or the fraud in the White Estate, -will soon discover these facts; and thus, they too will become confused, angry, and disappointed at the dishonest and incompetent leaders.

This is the pattern that the modern SDA church has established for itself. Pitiful. It is a cycle that can only be broken with repentance and reform. Propaganda will no longer work in the 21st century.

Here is another SDA complaining. They were crushed upon recently discovering some anti-Ellen White web sites. This question was not written to me, nor do I agree with their reaction, or to the advice that was given, but it underscores how the Internet is destroying the ability of the leaders to control the discussion and hide the issues. There is no defense for what the SDA’s teach, or what they have done, so the only way out is to repent and embrace the corrections of Adventist Reform.

Listen to Mary. See how she was stunned at what she learned online about her church.

Mary said: I am a 3rd generation Seventh-Day Adventist. Last year I found a web site exposing Ellen G. White. For several months, in total disbelief I read about the Great Lie and realized through further study that I belonged to a church filled with lies and falsehoods.

I was hurt, ticked, just MAD that I had been so duped!!

I am going to a church on Sunday and am blown away by the infilling of the Holy Spirit. My question is this, how do I stop going to church on Sat. I don't want to hurt the "old souls" that have been in my life forever, but I get nothing out of the church service.. I can't wait to go to church on Sunday!!!

I need an escape clause... My other question is why are the majority of SDA churches I've been in so dead? Has the Holy Spirit removed it's presence from dead, critical, negative churches?

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ership.htm
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Today, many SDA’s are finding out that their church is not honest. Period. More than that, after a little research, the enormity of their dishonesty, incompetence, and error becomes shocking. Dig deeper, and things get even worse. The fact of the matter is that the SDA’s are not even close to being honest about the Gospel or Church history.

So why should anyone today be surprised that there are so many upset SDA’s? There is so much info online that condemns them, including Adventist Reform, that the leaders are being very foolish to think they can continue on with their pretensions and denials. The leaders have long ago become blind to truth and reality, and so they remain for all to see. But regardless, the SDA charade is fooling fewer and fewer people nowadays.

Thus everyone will soon discover that the SDA’s are not to be trusted with anyone’s money or time, much less with their Eternal Security. Thus many will always be leaving, which explains why there has been no SDA growth in America for years.

There is only one way out of this mess for the SDA’s. They must tell the truth and confess their many errors and sins. There must be repentance for Glacier
View and serious Gospel Reform, or the SDA church is doomed. It is running on fumes right now, and it is only a matter of time before there is a complete and well-deserved collapse.

Hub said: Tom, that lays a heavy burden upon you if these people are lost.

Tom said: Ha! My conscience is clear. I have told the truth, and in fact, am prepared to do so, under oath, in a court of law. It is those that have done wrong that should worry about the consequences of their actions, not those telling the truth.

So you need to lecture the General Conference leaders, including the White Estate, about their “burden” and duty to tell the truth and be honest. I have not ever seen any such posts from you to the leaders. Why is that?

The SDA leaders and Pastors have failed in their duty to honestly teach the Gospel and church history correctly. They are the reason that so many SDA’s are so confused, embarrassed, and lost. They also created the TSDA’s, the modern day Pharisees, who are the most confused and anti-Gospel of all.

What right does any TSDA have to lecture anyone about the Gospel? They have no right. They don’t know what they are talking about nor do they want to know the Gospel facts.

Anyone that dares preach or teach the Gospel, had better be very careful. There is a heavy responsibility for those that instruct others about God’s Word and Eternal Life. Too bad the SDA’s don’t take the Gospel or Eschatology seriously. This is the real problem, and you are part of it.

Today, religion is a job, with the Pastors being a combination of accountant, entertainer, social worker, and politician. Pastors today are like the Activities Director on a cruise ship. It’s all about keeping everyone busy, entertained, and paying money into the church.

Religion is a profession that focuses on controlling people’s behavior, mostly through guilt and fear. It is a normative way to earn a living in both Babylon and Laodicea. But heaven is not pleased with this wretched situation.

Behavior modification is the goal of all false religion; the search for Gospel truth is not taking place, nor do many care about such things. Religion is BIG business that supports a vast array of dependant profit centers, like Colleges, Hospitals, and Senior Housing, thus all manner of finances are caught up in religion. It’s a business. The church has embraced greed, even as it is wedded to this capitalistic system, which will not survive the Time of Trouble.

The goal of the typical Pastor today is not to lead anyone to Eternal Life, but to bring in people and money to support the church budget and pay tithe to the hierarchy, the truth has zero to do with anything.

If anyone is lost in the modern SDA church, it will be because the leaders were more interested in Empire Building than searching for truth. They are guilty of refusing to embrace the genuine version of the Gospel, and the Three Angels Messages, which both Dr. Ford and Tom Norris are careful to present.

So far, you are one of those that refuse to confess and repent about the IJ and Tithe. You support the dishonest leaders, even as you repudiate genuine Gospel doctrine.

What burden do you have for embracing so much error all these years? What about now? You still stubbornly and blindly pretend that tithing is true, and that the IJ is taking place in heaven, right now, when these doctrines have been proven false and wrong. This is why you, and all those like you, will be lost if you do not repent.

It is a dangerous thing for religious people to pretend they can’t understand New Doctrine. This was the same game the Jews played, and now the SDA’s are doing the same thing.

Let all understand that those who pretend to be blind, refusing to confess and repent of their false doctrines, like the IJ, Tithe, and the OC Sabbath, will soon lose their ability to comprehend the Word and ever repent. Thus they really become blind, unable to understand the Spirit or the Gospel. Only those that can honestly deal with the evidence, and admit they are wrong about doctrine, can be healed of their Gospel blindness.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.

John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

The SDA’s do not know the voice of God, nor are they honest with the Word of God or the Gospel of God. They are truly naked and blind for all to see. There is no salvation in the SDA church right now, and there will never be, unless they repent and embrace Gospel Reform.

Hub said: There is a good possibility that some of these people (that leave the SDA church because of your writing) would have left anyway, but if only one person has lost his way because of your persuasive writing, you will bear a heavy responsibility.

Tom said: Ha! Before Tom Norris ever went online, MILLIONS of SDA’s were rushing out the back door and jumping out the windows.

It seems someone pulled the Fire Alarm in 1980, starting a stampede, and no one has figured out how to turn it off, (except for Adventist Reform).

What were all these SDA’s running from?

Answer: The arrogance and errors of Traditional Adventism, sent the best and the brightest out the door, and who can blame them? They went out for a good reason and they are still leaving today.

Don’t try and blame me for the gross mismanagement and corruption of this dysfunctional Denomination. When will the Adventists understand that the problem is NOT the messengers? And things are only going to get worse.

The problem is this: the leaders are dishonest and corrupt, full of false doctrine and manipulated church history. THIS is the real problem, which must be exposed and corrected for all to see.

Do you understand that the SDA’s have to confess and repent, correcting their theology and history? If you don’t see this point, then you have an incurable type of blindness that is fatal. You will not understand the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18, which is based on the Gospel.

So Hub, are you ready to embrace the LM, which is the real PAJ, and repent of the IJ, Tithe, and the OC Sabbath?

Are you ready to stop playing the role of a blind man that refuses to be healed by the Gospel? You and you alone are responsible for your own soul. Don’t blame me for trying to help the lost find their way.

I suggest that you first save yourself before you lecture others.

Furthermore, there is no salvation in any denomination, much less in the confused, corrupt, and double-talking SDA’s. The church books are not the same as the Lamb’s Book of Life. Only the latter is salvific. The former is irrelevant.

All those that have left the SDA church were correct to do so. Why? Because the SDA’s have not been honest about the Gospel or church history; and they refuse to repent and reform.

In fact, they are determined to invest millions of $$$ on endless propaganda, trying to convince everyone that they are fully correct and all others wrong. They think slick graphics, and smooth talking apologists are all that matter. They fail to understand that their doctrinal content is worthless garbage and Gospel Fraud. This is the problem that no one wants to admit.

Those SDA’s that played a part in the sin of Glacier View, and support the false Gospel of Traditional and / or Hierarchical Adventism, will be held accountable in the Day of Judgment for such reckless and wrong behavior.

Those today that refuse to confess that the IJ and tithe are wrong, will pay a great price, even the loss of their souls.

Hub said: Now I can guess your response: "The SDA church is hopelessly corrupt and headed for hell. Better to get out."

Tom said: I don’t know if the SDA church has passed the point of no return. That is not my call. But I do know that unless they repent and correct their many errors, they are as doomed as were the Jews.

Only a Gospel Reformation, complete with “zealous repentance” can save the SDA denomination. This is what I am explaining to anyone that is interested. But the leaders have made it clear that they do not want to confess or repent. So be it. They are spitting in the face of Christ, and repudiating his message to the Laodiceans.

UNLESS the SDA’s officially and clearly repent; and correct the record in the White Estate, no one should support them. Period. They will be fuel for the Judgment.

Unless they become honest with the Word and church history, I must advise any and all to run from this arrogant group of hardened, double-talking religious deceivers. God will raise up others to proclaim the final Gospel Message. No problem.

Luke 19:40 But Jesus answered, “I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out!”

The genuine Gospel and the false version are natural enemies. I cannot recommend that anyone trying to understand the Gospel attend any SDA church. There is no Eternal Life to be found in their false, Judaizing Gospel. They do not understand or preach the correct Gospel, nor do they teach much of anything today that the Adventist Pioneers would support.

They are living a great delusion; as they teach an outrageously divided, distorted, and false Gospel. One that is full of myth, legalism, and many false doctrines, including the IJ, tithe, and the OC schoolmaster Sabbath of the Pharisees. They don’t even have the Lord’s Supper correct, or eschatology, or even their Health Message.

So why pretend any longer?

Hub said: If that is what you feel, then it is your responsibility to get out yourself.

Tom said: First, we are discussing facts, not feelings or opinions. So let’s get this point straight.

The SDA’s are caught up in a 40-year crisis about doctrine that is destroying both their mission and their message. This schism, which rages on decade after decade, will be fatal if the leaders do not tell the truth, repent, and deal with the issues.

So let’s stop playing games shall we? It is time for blunt talking within the Adventist Community about doctrinal issues. But the leaders are not interested in any new views, nor do they give a hoot about updating what is so badly outdated. They hate Gospel Reform.

So the people will have to go around them and move on to the 4th Angels Message. That’s what I have done, and I encourage all to just wave good-bye to anyone that is trying to prevent them from understanding the Gospel and obtaining Eternal Life.

It is tragic that the leaders are so immature, dishonest, and incompetent that they will only speak, promote, and believe their own worthless propaganda. All should be warned about the dishonest Mormons, err, I mean SDA’s.

Matt. 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

No doubt they would like Tom Norris and Adventist Reform to “get out” of the way so the leaders can continue on with their massive publishing and marketing scam about Ellen White that has brought in so much money for the church. But this is only wishful thinking. The sins of the White Estate have become public for all to see. They are guilty as charged.

The SDA’s have been caught, first by Dr. Ford and now by Tom Norris for all to see. They should face up to their many errors and repent, but they refuse.

So let the people walk away from them. Let all that are honest, turn their backs on the dishonest. Let all that understand the Gospel, stop practicing the false doctrine of tithe, and stop supporting those that are so dishonest and wrong.

The leaders must be held accountable for their actions, not drive away their accusers and pretend they are innocent. It is time for the Advent Movement to grow up and move forward, with or without the SDA’s.

The SDA church has been judged by heaven as needing to repent. If they do not, all should forsake them.

Out of Old Covenant/SDA theology

Hub, I am out of Old Covenant, Hierarchical Adventism!

I don’t waste my time walking into an SDA church service, or even listening to it on the radio. What is the point? Most everything they teach and do is absurd and wrong. There is no spirit, depth, or credibility to any of their sermons, even as doctrinal error, as well as great historical myth abounds. The SDA’s have degenerated down to the level of the Mormons and the JW’s. This is embarrassing as well as unnecessary. So I am finished with Traditional Adventism. Period.

The SDA Pastors are nothing more than paid apologists, even as their sermons are worthless, self-serving drivel, full of error and myth, delivered by paid apologists, who are either too dishonest or too brainwashed to understand true Gospel theology and correct church history.

For laughs, I do watch Doug Bachelor make a fool of himself from time to time. The other night he was sticking a dollar bill straight out of each of his two ears; to demonstrate how silly it looks for women to wear earrings.

He was trying to promote the SDA view that wearing jewelry is wrong. But of curse there is no such doctrine, nor does this myth belong in a Gospel sermon. Amazing facts is an embarrassment to anyone that understands the Gospel, and I want nothing to do with this garbage.

Today, SDA doctrine is surreal, absurd, and impossible. The Adventist church has morphed into a silly and trite sham for the uneducated and naive. It will no longer work for anyone with a fully functioning brain. Which is why the leaders acknowledge that most of the growth in NA is from “minorities, persons of color, and newly arrived immigrants.” They are the “most responsive to the Adventist Message.” (Sept Review, NAD feature, page 32.)

But even the poor and uneducated have computers and brains. At some point, they too will figure out what so many others already have. Thus the more educated a person is, the less they want anything to do with SDA doctrine.

Today, the leaders are content to target the lowest class of people. Thus they prey on the weak, uninformed and gullible for their growth. They realize that normal, honest people will not put up with their double-talk anymore. Shame on the SDA’s. Shame!

So Hub, I repudiate and repent of Traditional and Hierarchical Adventism. I despise it. And I have done so for many years. I fully and forever repent of tithe and the IJ, and so should you if you ever want to understand the Gospel and claim Eternal Life.

I was very wrong to fall for so many false, SDA doctrines, and I will never pay tithe again, nor will I ever think it sinful to work on the Sabbath as the SDA’s incorrectly teach. I also laugh at this error that Sunday laws will bring about the end of the world, and on and on.

Do not misunderstand; there is great truth and insight in the Advent Movement, and in the Three Angels Messages, but not in OC, Adventism. The 3rd Angels Message never functioned properly, honestly, or correctly; not in Battle Creek, and not in Takoma Park/ Silver Spring.

This 3rd phase of Adventism has TERMINATED. It is time to move forward to the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18. There is no turning back for the Advent Movement. They must move forward and develop New Covenant Adventism.

So I repudiate Traditional, IJ based, SDA theology, but not Adventism, nor the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath or the Adventist Apocalyptic.

As a New Covenant Adventist, I refuse to hear this OC garbage and double-talk any more. The SDA’s today are so wrong, about so much, that I can no longer support their anti-Gospel organization, nor have anything to do with them. (Other than debate them to prove that they need to repent and reform.)

So Adventist Reform will continue to inform and educate the public, and the SDA Community, that their leaders are incompetent and dishonest, having no real concern for the Gospel or the fundamentals of the Advent Movement.

Luke 8:17 “For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light.

Luke 8:18 “So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.”

If they removed my name from the church books tomorrow, I could not care less. They have gone corrupt, and so too any that still support this Old Covenant nonsense that neither the Pioneers, Reformers, nor the Apostles approve.

Hub said: Don't pretend to be SDA. Don't pretend to "reform the SDA church" as a loyal SDA.

Tom said: I was born an SDA, in the Takoma Park San, on October 22, (not 1844), and raised an SDA. So I don’t need to pretend. Nor will I allow any slander by the TSDA’s, as if I were an outsider that does not really know what Adventism is all about.

The facts are clear, I am a life long SDA, educated and raised by the SDA’s.

I am promoting the same Gospel reforms, (and some additional ones), as Dr. Desmond Ford, one of the greatest of all modern SDA scholars.

He is the father of modern Adventist Reform, and it was a fatal mistake for the church to exile him at Glacier View, or to pretend he was wrong. Unless this fatal error is repudiated soon, the SDA church is doomed to continue down the obvious path of self-destruction.

As for being loyal, I am loyal to the fundamentals of the Protestant and Adventist faith, much more so than the TSDA’s who pretend they follow Ellen White, etc.

I am standing up for Ellen White and the original theology of the Three Angels Messages, while the TSDA’s were content to let Arthur White manipulate and falsify her writings and beliefs.

In fact, the TSDA’s are so corrupt and evil, that they do not even call for an investigation to see why the White Estate was hiding and manipulating Ellen White’s writings for so many years. They are not looking for truth, but for a way to excuse and defend their many errors and false doctrines. Pitiful.

The SDA leaders no longer understand the fundamentals that define and empower them. Nor are they even trying to be honest about anything. They have gone fully corrupt for all to see.

Regardless, there is a reformed path emerging that all SDA’s, including the ones that left. No other path has emerged that comes close to solving the SDA crisis of credibility like Adventist Reform.

The church is being very foolish to run away from Gospel Reform, pretending they do not need any correction. This is not what Jesus, the head of the church teaches. He says they are guilty as charged and must repent and reform. I agree.

Hub said: You can join some other church and still participate on this forum all you want (I think), but without the deception that you are a loyal SDA.

Tom said: Hub, why are you trying to push Adventist Reform away from the Adventist Community?

Don’t you want to see the Advent Movement address its many issues and resolve them?

Don’t you want to see them united, standing on the Word and promoting, cutting edge Gospel Eschatology?

Apparently not.

Adventist Reform is targeted to SDA’s. They need it fast, or the Advent Movement, with its great paradigm of the Three Angels Messages, and its mission to prepare the church for the Tribulation and the Judgment, will die.

One would think that the SDA’s would be happy that someone has taken the time to clear up so many issues, like the history of 1888 and the details of Glacier View. But the leaders do not want any correction or reform because it would expose them as great liars and cheats all these years.

But this is what they are now, more than ever. There has been one cover up after another at the GC and I say enough is enough.

So Adventist Reform is going to keep targeting the SDA’s, until everyone, both in the church and out, knows the facts about Adventist doctrine and history, both the good and the bad.

I am a disenfranchised SDA who is upset at the corruption, error, and incompetence of the leaders.

Long ago I discovered the reasons why the Adventists are so dysfunctional, even as I caught the leaders purposefully deceiving the people about Ellen White, the Gospel, and church history.

So instead of leaving, and attacking Adventism in Toto, as if it should not exist, I decided to try and help the dysfunctional and dying Advent Movement.

Why?

Because Adventist theology and history is worth saving. And so too is their noble eschatological mission to prepare the church for the end of the world. The fact that many inside the church do not want serious reform, and do not want to remove their many errors, or take their eschatological mission seriously, is beside the point.

So Adventist Reform is here to stay. The facts are not going to change or go away, but not so with all this myth and tall tales that the White Estate has been spinning all these years.

At some point, everyone will eventually come to understand that the modern SDA’s are great frauds and pretenders that must repent or be shunned and condemned by all those that follow Jesus and the Word. Ellen White condemns the modern SDA’s, and so too do I.

Furthermore, I don’t need any permission from the confused SDA’s or their leaders, who are such a large part of the problem, to speak to the issues, and expose their many errors.

But thanks for your suggestion to back off. Good for you to realize that there is no one in the church that can defend Glacier View or stand up to Adventist Reform. We all know this by now.

So why should AR back off?

On what basis?

Because it is too correct?

Because it makes the SDA leaders look foolish and dishonest, even criminal?

Ha! The more people read about the issues, the worse the SDA’s appear to everyone, and so they should. Modern day Adventism is wretched error, promoted by incompetent wolves and condemned fools that know not the Gospel.

Besides, it is too late. Adventist Reform is all over the Internet for anyone to find. To make matters worse, there is no credible rebuttal to what Dr. Ford or Tom Norris are saying. NONE.

Nor will there ever be a credible defense for Glacier View or Traditional Adventism. Which is why you and some others would like to see AR silenced. But this is the wrong time in history to depend on censorship as a debate strategy. There is no hiding in today’s wired world. The truth about Adventism, both good and bad, can no longer be hidden.

Luke 8:17 “For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light.

Why do you think I only write on certain, non-denominational web sites? Don’t you know that the church leaders have been unable to refute a single point of AR, and thus they have banned any discussion about such a dangerous topic? This is why the AToday Forum was shut down, and why we are here today on this site.

http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=224

Adventist Reform was forced to find a non-SDA controlled site to address the Community. Why? Because the dishonest and self-serving leaders want to censor and stop this discussion, which condemns them. But they have obviously failed, and their historic cover-up about Ellen White and 1888, as well as their many other false doctrines, dirty little secrets, and errors are being exposed to the “light” for all to see.

AR is public and transparent. Which is why there is an online record of this discussion on the late JR’s site, as well on the All Experts Site. And now we are here on this uncensored venue to continue the public discussion of AR, even as more and more people become aware of the issues and understand there must be reform in the Advent Movement.

The church leaders have had years to understand what Dr. Ford was correctly trying to tell them about Gospel Eschatology, and now Tom Norris is going to do it for them, and in spite on them. There is nothing the church can do to stop the truth from emerging. They have been caught with one error after another for all to see.

All that is left for the SDA leaders is confession and repentance, and perhaps some jail time for those who have supported the largest publishing fraud in modern history, and continue to do so to this very day. There is no excuse for the ongoing corruption and fraud of the SDA church. It is time that everyone knows what is taking place and why.

So I don’t need your permission, or that of any SDA, to tell the truth and educate people about the need for Adventist Reform. But thank you anyway.

Hub said; I believe, and many others do too, that the Seventh-day Adventist church is the Remnant Church of God, and that God loves this church and that He will save "a people" in this church to meet Him when He comes again. That is my belief.

Tom said: People “believe” many things. So what? Unless Jesus and the apostles support our views, they must be repudiated and removed.

Many things that SDA’s teach are wrong and must be corrected. Period. There is nothing that can be said that will change this fundamental position of Adventist Reform.

The fact that God loves SDA’s, like he does all others, is beside the point. God corrects and disciplines those he loves and one would have to be blind to not see how the SDA’s have fallen so low.

The NT shows that there will be a final REFORMATION OF THE CHURCH, as well as a full and complete proclamation of the Gospel, including a new and very different doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.

Whether the SDA’s are going to have anything to do with this final eschatology is unknown. At this point, they have not repented, and unless they do, they will misunderstand the Loud Cry of Rev 18, which is part of Adventist Reform, and take a fatal path.

Hub said: I only ask that you look again at your "reforms," pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit, and be honest in the path you follow, and what you advise for others.

Tom said: Adventist Reform is long past the point of no return. The points and positions have been laid out for many years for all to see. The evidence is not going to change; neither can the leaders defend their views any longer. Which is why no one has rebutted a single proposition of AR, not any SDA leader or apologists, or anyone. In fact, they have all run away from this discussion in defeat and embarrassment because THEY ARE WRONG, and condemned.

So I would ask that all the TSDA’s “look again” at the comprehensive list of doctrinal reforms, including the new doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath, which few ever saw coming; and repent.

I ask that all SDA’s start HONESTLY dealing with the issues and stop pretending that myths and propaganda are the same as facts. They are very different.

I also ask the TSDA’s to tell the truth and repent for Glacier view and for fighting against the correct Gospel and the correct version of the Three Angels Messages all these years.

No doubt this is way too much to ask for those destined for hell. Pity.

Yitzak said: It's also completely consistent to strive to "reform" an institution and also remain a member of the institution.

Tom said: Correct. Reform most always comes from within. Jesus was the greatest of all Jewish Reformers. In the post apostolic church, Luther, became the greatest Roman Catholic reformer of all time. Thus we can see that religious reforms come from within, even as William Millar was a reforming Baptist minister, and on and on.

Yitzak said: I am probably somwhere between you two. I consider myself an Adventist, but there are a whole host of reforms I'd like to see in the church.

Tom said: There is the Advent Movement, and then there is the SDA church. They are not the same. The former is far more credible paradigm than the latter, but they are all a work in progress. Only under the 4th Angels Message did the SDA’s think they would have all truth. So there was always an expectation of further revision and reform.

No doubt many in every church would like to see reforms, but the leaders are blocking the way. They don’t even want anyone to know there is a need for Adventist Reform, but it is hard to hide the obvious.

Here is an easy way for SDA’s to understand who is standing on the right side, and who is not.

Those that declare themselves NEW COVENANT SDA’s, and embrace the Gospel teachings of Jesus, and Paul, are on the right side of the argument. This is where Dr. Ford and Tom Norris are positioned.

New Covenant SDA’s will not pay tithe or embrace the OC Sabbath where work is forbidden and called sinful. Nor will they think they are going to have their characters judged in the IJ to see if they are safe to save.

These Protestant minded people also understand that Sanctification is not salvific, and that Dr. Ford was correct to denounce and repudiate the Investigative Judgment at Glacier View.

Old Covenant SDA’s

NONE of the TSDA’s, or the leaders, are New Covenant SDA’s. They are ALL tithe paying, IJ believing, Sabbath keeping, OLD COVENANT SDA’S. They are the modern day Pharisees. They are acting like those in Galatia.

The SDA Community must choose between New Covenant and Old Covenant Adventism. These are the battle lines, and the war has already begun. So let all be alert and take the proper side.

Adventist Reform promotes NEW COVENANT ADVENTISM, even as it disproves the OC brand that is based on legalism, double-talk, and historical fraud.

Yitzak said: I agree wholeheartedly with probably five or six of Tom's proposed reforms, I disagree with a couple, and then there are 3 or 4 I either don't understand, or don't care enough about to form an opinion about.

Tom said: I can make this real simple: Anyone that pays tithe and thinks the IJ a credible doctrine, are Old Covenant SDA’s. And so too anyone that thinks their salvation depends on their sanctification and character. Such a quick test works every time.

Yitzak said: I'll also point out that there are wholly faithful adventists who don't in fact believe that salvation depends on membership in the church. From that perspective, leaving the church only matters, if it's a step toward leaving God.

Tom said: The SDA’s have a false and dangerous view of the Gospel, as well as a manipulated and fabricated version of their own history. It is not wise to have fellowship with those who embrace so much false doctrine and deliberate deceit. There is no Eternal Life to be found inside any SDA church today. They have left God long ago and are following a false Christ.

Sorry for the bad news. Let all beware.

Yitzak said: I left the church, came back, left again, came back again, and arrived where I am now. My leaving the church at least temporarily was part of the process of growing closer to Christ, for me, so I really don't think it's as black and white as you suggest.

Tom said: The Gospel is very black and white, and so too every doctrine, which is either for or against the Gospel.

The NC is very different from the OC in many ways, but few know how to make this vital separation. The SDA’s do not understand the difference between the Two Covenants, which is why they misunderstand the Gospel. (This goes for other churches today as well.)

They are like those in Galatia who also embrace a Sabbatarian, OC Gospel, which for SDA’s comes in a package with the IJ, Tithe, and a male controlled priestly hierarchy, that teaches sanctification is salvific, even as obedience to the law and to the OC Sabbath is required for salvation.

While the doctrines of Laodicea are not black and white, they should be, which is why all are condemned in the PAJ of the church. There is only one Gospel and one Sabbath and one church.

So all this confusion, double-talk, and pluralism shows how wrong everyone is about the Gospel, including the doctrine of the Sabbath, which is a quick test to see who is paying attention to the Gospel teachings of Jesus and who is not.

Today there is no church in the world that teaches the true Gospel and the correct NC Sabbath for the church. Such a stunning charge seems impossible. How could they all be wrong? Look around and see.

Gospel eschatology shows that a time will come when all Laodiceans, (including SDA’s) will be faced with their errors and told to repent. This is what is taking place in Rev 18. At that time there will be no more double-talk or confusion about any doctrine, much less the Gospel and the Sabbath.

Yitzak said: I have to say, and again, this may be heresy to you, but I wouldn't leave a congregation or a denomination over some doctrinal dispute, especially about an abstract concept that doesn't have bearing on my day to day life.

Tom said: This may sound like heresy to you and others, but every denomination, church, and cult is full of false, wretched, doctrines, and the SDA’s are one of the worst.

So all the choices out there are bad compromises. Not one church can brag that they have the full and complete doctrine of the Gospel. Least of all the SDA’s!

Some are closer to correct than others, and thus all must make their own personal assessment about how much false doctrine they can tolerate versus how much fellowship they need.

But no one should think, especially any SDA, that their church is the “best” church, or the most correct church, or the church that God loves the best, etc. Those who speak this way only prove the opposite of what they profess. They are self-condemned, those that refute the LM.

Only those that embrace repentance, and admit their views wrong, will go on to the next and final level.

The Laodicean Church is not meant to remain naked and blind. NO. They are to repent and reform. Then there will be a great division in the church. Those that have repented for their false Gospel and wrong Sabbath, and those who will not. The former group will go on to proclaim the final Gospel Message and take shelter from the coming Tribulation. The latter will cry peace and safety.

The time is coming when there will be a clear and credible articulation of the Gospel, which will condemn all that hear it. At that time there will be no more doubt that the church has embraced great error and needs to repent. All churches will be embarrassed and condemned, and many people will run away from these organized wolves in sheep’s clothing, some finding it is too late.

Yitzak said: So, my advice to the letter writer quoted would be to pray that he can find a congregation where he and his wife are both comfortable, and to do all he can to be faithful to God and at the same time a good husband to his wife.

Tom said: Go back and read the letter. The wife “is a very convicted SDA, and ” they “have a baby on the way.” You might have better success with your advice if there were no child in the equation. A child means that the issues of religion are more important than ever, mostly to the mother.

I doubt this “very convinced” SDA wife, and soon to be mother, can be “comfortable” in another church, (with her new child), especially not in a Sunday keeping church.

Nor should she have to raise her child with such fraudulent doctrine. The SDA’s are very correct to understand that Sunday is a great fraud; a colossal false doctrine. Too bad they still missed the correct doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.

What is the point of leaving one church for false doctrine only to embrace another church with different false doctrine? Either way, unless the Gospel is understood and embraced, there will be no Eternal Life for any child or adult.

My, oh my! What is the solution to this conundrum?

Answer: Adventist Reform!

Its time the Advent Movement has a serious, quick, and efficient update, even a REFORMATION. The Tribulation is not that far away, and there is much work to do in a short period.

John 4:35 “Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest.

Yitzak said: There are many SDA congregations (you may think this bad, I think it good), where Ellen White is rarely mentioned, and people don't deal a great deal with the issue of IJ and the last days.

Tom said: For now, it is a good thing for the SDA’s to stop talking abut Ellen White and empowering the corrupt White Estate.

Until the White Estate confesses, and corrects the record, no one should pay any attention to the many legends, myths and manipulations from the White Estate.

All SDA’s must return to the teaching authority of Jesus and the apostles. Their NT theology is all that matters.

Furthermore, the LM calls for confession of all wrong doctrine…not just the avoidance of error, all the while refusing to specifically repent for false hermeneutics or the IJ.

Many that avoid Ellen White, also embrace many other false views. So sweeping this issue under the rug is not really a solution is it? Hardly.

Yitzak said: Instead, they're taken up with such trivialities as God's will for their lives, and spend their free time not debating theology but feeding the homeless, running tutoring programs and the like. (There are of course many non-SDA congregations that behave similarly, and I'm blessed to also be a member of one of these- yes, I attend a lot of church).

Tom said: While some churches may be doing some things more correct than some others, NOTHING that is being done by the Laodiceans has impressed heaven. Not the social Gospel of the soup kitchen crowd, nor those that imagine they are following God’s will, singing his praises, and doing many good works.

The LM condemns every church in the land. So none can boast. And no one, at this point in church history, should dare claim to have a fully correct Gospel or Sabbath because NONE do. Which is why all Laodiceans, not just the SDA’s, are told by Jesus to repent.

So go to all the churches you want, but understand there is false doctrine all around, even as all have been instructed by Jesus in the Word to repent or be doomed.

A further note: This idea that Christians are to feed the homeless, etc, is not part of the early church doctrine. Rather, the Church was careful to make sure their MEMBERS were fed. They never tried to feed any outside the church. Such activity is just another misguided and false doctrine of the church,

Yitzak said: I'd council the brother, if he reads this, to focus on God's will for his actions, and for how he should treat his wife- his first responsibility on this earth- and find a group of Christians of whatever denomination(s) that support him in this.

Tom said: It is God’s will that all REPENT and be saved by the Gospel. Nothing is more important for those on earth, and all would do well to listen to the teachings of Jesus on this point.

Matt. 6:33 “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

CONTINUED:

tom_norris · 10-03-10 10:29 am

Elaine said: Since Bible reading is actively encouraged in most churches, but especially the SDA, it is the one reason I left the SDA church as after much reading and studying the New Testament, which is the testament to Christ, I could no longer hold the belief that Adventism claims to be the "truth" as a Christian denomination.

Tom said: At this point, the SDA’s teach very little truth. They not only teach a distorted Gospel and a false judgment, but they also have the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath, even as they persecute those who bring them the Gospel.

So unless the leaders decide to confess, repent, and embrace honest Gospel Reform, EVERYONE should leave the SDA church and seek truth elsewhere.

Mark 6:11 “Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them.”

Mark 6:12 They went out and preached that men should repent.

Elaine said: Adventism became a hybrid of Judaism and Christianity, and resulting in neither.

Tom said: Good point. However, it is also true to say that the apostolic church “became a hybrid of Judaism and Christianity, resulting in neither.” This also can be said about the Galatians, and the RCC and many others. This is normative error that must CORRECTED. And this is exactly what is taking place in Rev 18.

The reason why there is such a dramatic and stunning articulation of the Gospel at the end of time is because it upends the status quo and exposes the Gospel of every church and denomination as worthless, self-serving, propaganda. Starting with the SDA’s who have been fighting against Gospel Reform for many decades.

Although the Christian faith is 100% Jewish, the NC is nonetheless very different from the OC. Thus, the secret to understanding the Gospel correctly is to grasp the differences between the Two Covenants. When this is done properly, the genuine Gospel will emerge for all to see.

Elaine said: Its major unique doctrines are directly from the OT: Sabbath, clean-unclean food, tithing and the 2300 days from Daniel: all from the Hebrew Bible.

Tom said: The SDA’s are not the only ones that have embraced incorrect, OC doctrine. Where do you think the RC Church got the idea for their all male Priesthood, with a high priest sitting in an earthly Temple?

Answer: FROM THE OT!

Today, there is no church in the world that correctly understands what doctrines transfer into the NC and which ones stay behind. This is why the Sabbath is such a telling doctrine. It shows everyone wrong; because the church has failed to understand the Gospel correctly, nor do they really care.

Once a church is established and the Pioneers have fallen asleep, the honesty fades and the object is to keep the money flowing, not to find truth or remove error.

Elaine said; Adventists have rejected the Pauline Gospel …. Paul wrote that there are no longer barriers between Jews and Gentile and men and women, slaves and free. Yet the two main barriers preventing communication between Jews and Gentile were re-erected by Sabbath and clean/unclean foods which prevent the hospitality table between peoples.

Tom said: The SDA’s have never fully understood the Gospel. And when Ellen White and Waggoner tried to correct their errors about the law and the Gospel, they acted like the Jews and embraced the law.

The SDA’s are guilty of officially repudiating the Gospel in 1888 and again in 1980. And now they are still doing it again by their refusal to repent and embrace Adventist Reform.

So the SDA’s are experts at rejecting the Gospel of Christ. They do it all the time.

Elaine said: No one can show from the NT that Sabbath, tithe, unclean meats and the deciphering of numbers and beasts in Revelation have any relevance to salvation, and were never preached by Christians during the first century.

Tom said: The SDA’s have a huge credibility problem that will only grow worse. They have embraced so much error and double talk over the years that there is no way out except for them to repent and embrace Gospel Reform. This is what they must do, because there is no defense for their doctrines or their falsified history.

Elaine said: Adventists call themselves Christian, but in truth, they have much more in common with Jewish Sabbath, Kosher laws and their very unique interpretation of D&R--none of which are ever mentioned in the NT as being mandated for salvation.

Tom said: The entire Laodicean Church has a false Gospel. Not just the SDA’s. The RCC is full of OC ritual and doctrine, even as they teach that salvation is a “process” and Eternal Life is based upon our sanctification and obedience to the Moral law.

So let’s not pretend the SDA’s are the only ones wrong. So too, all others.

Thus you can say: The RC’s call themselves Christian, but in truth, they have too much OC doctrines. This can be said of many, including the SDA’s who act more like the faithless, 1st century Jews all the time.

Hub said: Yitzak You may be right in your assessment of Tom and me. We definitely disagree on several areas.

Tom said: Adventist Reform is the OPPOSITE of Traditional Adventism, which Hub supports. These two paradigms are as different as the OC is from the NC.

Thus AR and Tom Norris have a different Gospel, and even a different Christ from the SDA’s. I have a different view of hermeneutics, church history, and eschatology; as well as a different view of the Eucharist, church organization, and financial management.

We even have a very different doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath. So it is an “understatement” to say we disagree on several points. We disagree on most everything.

Hub said: However, recently I have noted what seems to me to be a moderating, at least in rhetoric, of Tom's writing. I appreciate that.

Tom said: We have reached a point in the discussion where few try to promote the IJ or defend tithe, etc. That is what made the sparks fly over at JR’s site. It was the clash between Adventist Reform and Traditional Adventism.

While it was entertaining and even comical to watch, the TSDA’s lost the debate, even as Goldstein, their champion, was humiliated and defeated for all to see. The record speaks for itself, and so does the fact that you don’t see these IJ screamers around here anymore. They all stay away for a reason. Hiding from the facts that condemn them.

However, those who venture into this discussion, intent to promote false doctrine, myth, and legend, refusing to be honest with the issues and the facts, will get blasted as usual. So nothing has changed in that regard.

I do agree that the absence of the TSDA’s, and some others that were so confused as to think that Jesus is the Sabbath, allows for more gentle instruction to those that actually want to find the answers.

In fact, more people are now interested in learning about Adventist Reform instead of trying to attack it, and that is progress. It means people are beginning to understand the great paradigm change that is taking place within Adventism, right before their eyes.

Hub said: I have also noted Tom's defense of gospel issues. I will even go so far as to say that Tom means well.

Tom said: When it comes to the Gospel, sincerity does not count for much. The Jews “sincerely” believed that Jesus was a threat to their positions of power, so they prayed about it and “sincerely” had him killed.

Peter was also “sincerely” convinced that Jesus should not die on the Cross, but Jesus condemned his view anyway, because it was against the Gospel and very wrong.

Peter, again, along with James, “sincerely” believed that the Gospel required careful attention to the Moral law, as well as other OC traditions. He, and many others were certain that the Gospel is only for those that “sincerely” embraced the OC law and obeyed it. But Paul did not care about their sincerity, which turned out to be supporting false doctrine.

So the point is this; correct doctrine is not based on our sincerity or good intentions. And often times, those who are the most sincere, are the most wrong.

The Gospel must be defined by the instruction found in the NT. The teachings of Jesus stand on their own merit. His words, and those of his apostles are not to be judged by the sincerity of those that preach it, or hear it.

Hub said: Regarding Tom as a serious "reformer" of the church, it is a little unrealistic for him to attack several key doctrines and practices all by himself; when these doctrines and practices are supported by the scholars and members of the whole church.

Tom said: Who said I stand alone?

I stand in a long line that teaches the same Gospel. Starting with Jesus, and the apostles, as well as the Reformers and the Adventist Pioneers, including Ellen White, (the real one).

As for scholars, AR has the full support of Dr. Ford, the greatest of all modern SDA scholars. Moreover, there are no credible scholars that support the IJ. NONE. Nor can any scholar support the many false SDA doctrines and myths, such a tithe or this farce that wine is grape juice.

Moreover, many have expressed support for Adventist Reform, and the number grows by the day. The more people hear the issues, the worse of TA appears. TA has lost the debate, not Dr. Ford or Tom Norris.

Hub said: It is arrogant for him to think he is right and everyone else is wrong.

Tom said: Ha! It is arrogant for the SDA’s to think they are correct and everyone else wrong. With zero scholars supporting their false doctrines, on what basis should they brag?

As an SDA, I was raised to think that everyone else was wrong except the SDA’s. Every Sabbath, the SDA’s would gloat that they “had the truth” and that all others were wrong about the law and salvation, and even about how to eat and live.

Today, the vast majority in the SDA Community no longer thinks the Adventists know what they’re talking about. Millions have become fed up with their arrogance and error that seems to know no bounds. They have far more critics than members and it is only a matter of time before they totally collapse in a great pile of false and silly doctrine.

Hub said: Is (Tom Norris) he a Martin Luther? Well, Martin Luther had the support of the University of Wittenberg, Frederick the Elector of Saxony, and a many other people. If Luther did not have this support, he would have been dealt with as Huss and Jerome.

Tom said: At this point in history, I have the full support of the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights to speak freely against the SDA church. So that’s all the support I need to make my case. Luther, Huss, and others should have been so fortunate.

Hub said: Tom needs to gather this support, and then dialogue with the Biblical Research Institute, and scholars at the Seminary.

Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. Do you know what you are saying? Since when do the wolves get to make the rules for the sheep? Even to the point of controlling their minds and their tongues?

First off, I used to meet weekly with BRI, when I was researching in the White Estate. I often debriefed them on the thousands of documents that I found in the White Estate and Archives. I met scores of times with Dr. Gordon Hyde and some with Ed Zinke, who worked there at the time. So let’s not pretend that Tom Norris has not had serious and pointed discussions with the church leaders about doctrine and church history. I have had many such private meetings over the years, including many in the White Estate.

The problem is that the church has become so political and corrupt, full of vested and competing interests, that the search for truth has no reason to exist. Thus the leaders are fearful of telling the truth and admitting error, or doing much of anything by way of reform. It is too risky. People would lose their jobs.

Why do you think I went public? I realized that the leaders were NEVER going to come out and tell the truth about 1844 or 1888, much less about Ellen White and what happened in Battle Creek or Glacier View. There was so much to confess and correct that the leaders opted for “pluralism” instead. Then anyone can believe most anything.

So Hub, after years of working with the church leaders, I finally realized they didn’t really want people to know the truth. Even though Dr. Olsen promised me that the White Estate would explain the new discoveries about 1888 to the church and correct the record, he was lying. The White Estate went on to COVER –UP, once again, what really happened in 1888 and Battle Creek, and to this day they have not told the truth. Nor do they have any such plans.

Unless Tom Norris had not gone public, no one today would have a clue about this massive suppression of Ellen White’s writings, much less about what really took place in 1888 or even what Ellen White really believed about the Gospel, the IJ, and Tithe. Although the church leaders tried to silence this discussion, as evidenced by the AToday Forum shutdown, it was a futile gesture. Adventist Reform is here to stay. Too bad for the SDA leaders, they have turned out to be wolves in sheep’s clothing for all to see. They are great and wicked liars.

The Gospel promotes freedom of speech and thought, especially as it relates to the teaching of Jesus. It is a false and wicked Gospel that keeps the Bible from the people, and suppresses the honest study and discussion of the Word.

It is also a grievous sin to teach false doctrines in the church for the sake of money and greed. And the SDA tithe doctrine underscores the fact that they are running a great religious scam. One where money is the basis for all that they do. They are no better than the Mormons. Joel Osteen, and the many others charlatans that teach false doctrine for the sake of money.

Acts 8:20 But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!

1Tim. 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Those, like the SDA church, that use censorship, job security, and propaganda to enforce their false doctrines are doing an evil work. All in the church, (every church), are free to question, study, criticize, and complain, and this is what the Spirit has led many to do in the past and so it will be again.

In fact, there is a growing recognition, coming from many people within many different denominational backgrounds, that tithe is a false doctrine in the church. The Spirit is leading all to understand that this key doctrine, which empowers the SDA hierocracy, is against the Gospel and very wrong. This one truth alone, overturns Adventism and forces a major reformation and re-organization. But yet, the SDA leaders are standing tall for error and tradition, spitting in the eye of God and his Christ.

At the end of time, the Spirit will lead many, in all faiths, to re-examine the Word and repent for being so wrong and so much. Many will act like Jesus, Peter, Paul, as well as like Luther and the Reformers; They will stand up and tell the truth about the Gospel. They will defy their religious leaders, in public, for all to see. There will be no permission asked for such a final Reformation, any more then for the others.

Do you also think that Luther should have asked permission of the Vatican to post up his 95 Theses?

Should Jesus have asked permission from the Jewish leaders before he went public with such amazing new theology? According to you yes. But of course you are wrong. Jesus did not seek the permission from the religious leaders of his day BECAUSE HE KNEW THEY WERE WRONG. And thus they would deny him any license to say a word about the Gospel.

So he went around the incompetent and dishonest leaders, straight to the people. Just like John the Baptist also did.

Both Jesus and JB, forced a public showdown with those who claimed to be the experts about God and salvation. Proving to all that the so-called experts were full of error and false doctrine, even great evil. Mission accomplished. The Gospel survived, the Jewish leaders and their OC Temple system, and all the priests, did not.

Those in the church, who have to ask permission of the religious authorities to read the Bible and tell the Gospel truth, do not understand Jesus teachings as they claim. No mortal man judges or controls the Gospel or the Spirit of Truth. Not in the 1st century, or the 16th, and certainly not in the 21st.

When God determines it is time for the Gospel to be better understood, and move forward, this is what happens. It doesn’t matter who protests, whether the Jews, Romans, or the Pope himself. The Gospel is not under the control of man, much less the organized church. Rather, it is the Spirit that will determine the timing of the final Reformation, even as he opens the eyes of the blind to understand the Gospel and the Word.

Although, the Laodicean church today is totally and universally blind, confused, and in the dark, this is the very context whereby God will raise up those to protest and tell the truth about the Gospel. The Spirit will instruct those willing to listen, and thus the false Sheppard’s, will be exposed, through the Word, as frauds for all to see.

Those that understand the Gospel, and the Word of God, don’t need any instruction or permission from the so-called religious leaders, who are only wolves in disguise. The teachings of Jesus and the apostles are very clear, and too is their authority, by which all doctrines are based.

NOTE: There is no NT protocol whereby any Gospel Reformer is supposed to ask permission before he teaches the Word. You must not have read the NT to think this way. Those that have been instructed by the words of Jesus and his Spirit “CANNOT STOP SPEAKING.” Thus they refuse to be censored, even under pain of torture death.

Acts 4:13 Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus.

Acts 4:14 And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they had nothing to say in reply.

Acts 4:15 But when they had ordered them to leave the Council, they began to confer with one another,

Acts 4:16 saying, “What shall we do with these men? For the fact that a noteworthy miracle has taken place through them is apparent to all who live in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it.

Acts 4:17 “But so that it will not spread any further among the people, let us warn them to speak no longer to any man in this name.”

Acts 4:18 And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.

Acts 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge;

Acts 4:20 for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

Today, all SDA’s should understand that their leaders do not speak for God, or the Gospel, much less for the Pioneers as they claim. They have been proven to be incompetent, dishonest, and very wrong about most everything in the past 40 years, and thus it is time for a Doctrinal Revolution to sweep through the dying Advent Movement to give it life, purpose, and prophetic meaning.

Hub said: The doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church have been extensively worked over to make a complete picture of God's plans for this church.

Tom said: Ha! The doctrines of the SDA church have indeed been changed many times in a futile attempt to make them sound more correct. But after so many failed attempts, it is time for an “extensive apology” for years of false doctrine and “worked over” (manipulated) church history.

While you, an SDA, claim to have a “complete picture of God’s plans” for the church, Jesus, the head of the church says the opposite. He says the SDA’s are blind, wretched, and naked. He says that are clueless about the Gospel and the plans of God.

I not only believe Jesus, as opposed to you, but I also understand why he says the SDA’s are so wrong. And I am trying to explain it to those who want truth. You apparently prefer myths and double-talk. Each to their own.

Listen to Ellen White speak to this point;

What greater deception can come upon human minds than a confidence that they are right when they are all wrong!

The message of the True Witness finds the people of God in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception. They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God. While those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual condition, the message of the True Witness breaks their security by the startling denunciation of their true condition of spiritual blindness, poverty, and wretchedness.

The testimony, so cutting and severe, cannot be a mistake, for it is the True Witness who speaks, and His testimony must be correct.

(Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 3, p. 252-253).

Hub said: Adventist understanding on end time events is especially strong. For Tom or anyone else to try to pick out pieces here and there would mar the picture and cause endless problems.

Tom said: Hub, was that a typo? The SDA view of eschatology is “especially WRONG!” They have made error after error after error, with no end in sight.

They don’t even have the basic fundamentals of Adventist history or theology correct. Thus they are very wrong about the historic interpretation of the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message. They pretend it is the IJ, when it never was and never can be. They even claim this is what Ellen White believed, when it NEVER was.

http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=227

So on this one point alone, they have proven themselves to be incompetent and dishonest fools. The SDA’s do not understand the twin pillars of the 1st Angels Message, which are the Gospel and the Judgment.

So they are “very WRONG” about Adventist Eschatology, not “very STRONG.” They are also Great liars and con artists that have deliberately manipulated the life story of Ellen White to support their false doctrines and historical myths.

The SDA’s are so dishonest, confused, and wrong about the Gospel and the history of the church, including the fundamentals of the Advent Movement, that no one should pay any attention to anything they say or print. They are wrong on most every point, including the Sabbath and Sunday laws, and Tithe, as well as how they practice the Lord’s Supper. They are truly blind and naked as predicted, and so too any that dare try to defend this wretched, unrepentant denomination.

Hub asked: Is leaving the church the same as leaving God? … The church is the bride of Christ. He loves the church. He wants His people to work together to build up His body -- another term for His church. Maybe some people need to leave the church, I don't know. But I think it is always at serious risk for their salvation to do so.

Tom said: The church is made up of people, not any type of organization of people. Do not confuse the two. People are saved ONLY by their faith in the Gospel, NOT because of their faith in any local or global church organization or denomination.

In other words, the xyz denomination, (fill in the blank) is not the church. Only people’s names are written in the Book of Life. Only people are the church.

The church is a venue for those that have been saved BY CHRIST. The church has no salvation or forgiveness to give of itself. Only the Gospel saves. And the church is tasked to preach the Gospel of Christ. But they have failed. With the last church era being the worst church era, which is why there must be a final reformation in the Laodicean church. This is seen in Rev 18. A final and correct proclamation of the Gospel before the Tribulation.

Hub said: Is doctrine important? Yes! A common belief is what holds a church together, and makes it possible to work together. The practical aspects of the gospel are also important, and the community of the believers is important. Yet all this is built on one's concept of who God is.

Tom said: It is the belief in the Gospel that holds the church together. But guess what? The apostolic church became divided the Gospel. Thus from the beginning of the church, there has been great doctrinal division and debate IN THE CHURCH. (Which is why there is an entire book of the NT, Galatians, dedicated to this debate.)

After Paul leaves the scene, the false Gospel prevails in the church and thus for many centuries, the genuine Gospel was hidden and unknown to the world. The Reformation rediscovered the true Gospel and thus Luther and Company renewed this ancient debate, which brings us to the confused and wretched state of the Gospel, where we are today.

At the end of time, this debate between these two different Gospels will erupt once again. This takes place just before the Tribulation and the end of the world. Thus everything in the church is built on the Gospel and church prophecy.

Hub said: Feeding the homeless and helping the needy is important. Is it the primary focus for the work of the church? I don't think so. If a church is built on solid belief and a relation to God, they will do these things. But social work will not bring about holiness in a person or the church.

Tom said: The church was never supposed to feed the homeless. Rather, they were to make certain that all within the church were fed and taken care of. So this idea of the church feeding strangers is yet another doctrinal error that misunderstands how the local church functions. While the church is supposed to preach the Gospel to the world, for free, they are not supposed to feed anyone but those within their Gospel community.

Thus, many churches, like the SDA’s, ignore those in need within their own church, while at the same time, making a big deal out of feeding strangers and helping those who are not in the church, and that don’t care about the Gospel. This is the opposite of how the church should function.

Hub said: …In the paradigm of the Great Controversy between Christ and Satan, we understand that human history is moving to a climax. It will yet be proved that Satan is evil, and that God is merciful and just. Last day events are critical in this scenario.

Tom said: Agreed. However, the SDA’s are part of the problem. They are teaching false, dishonest, and absurd things about the end of the world. THIS is why there must be REFORM.

Yitzak said: If I waited for a church that agreed exactly with me on every doctrinal point, I'd never attend anything. I suspect this is true of most adventist and adventist attenders.

Tom said: At the end of time, the Gospel will become so clear and understandable, including the doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath, that the repentant Laodicean church will become united under the correct Gospel. Such unity will be in sharp contrast to the balance of Laodicea that will not repent. They will remain divided and very confused about doctrine. Thus the Laodicean church will become divided over the Gospel, and all will be forced to make a choice.

Psa. 133:1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!

Eph. 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

Eph. 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

Eph. 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Eph. 4:14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

Eph. 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

Eph. 4:16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

Yitzak said: My list of fundamentals is very short. It makes for a happier and more harmonious life for me at least. I also find myself less and less interested in what seem to me to be more arcane points of theology.

Tom said: The Gospel, as taught by Jesus and the Apostles, is the only fundamental doctrine that saves. The more one knows about the NT, and the teachings of Jesus, the more one can understand false doctrine and truth.

At this point, religious fraud is epidemic and universal. So beware. Those that think honest, Protestant, theology is not very interesting or important, will easily be fooled by the legions of false Sheppard’s that have overpopulated Laodicea.

Matt. 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

Mark 8:15 And He was giving orders to them, saying, “Watch out! Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.”

Yitzak said: I consider the fundamental questions I need to ask myself each day: what is God's will for me today? How should I behave? Am I treating His image in myself and others the way I ought?

Tom said: It is God’s will that you obtain Eternal Life and thank him for it, and do good works, waiting and hoping for the Second Advent. This is God’s will for all.

Eph. 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

1Tim. 6:18 Instruct them to do well, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Phil. 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice!

Phil. 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

Phil. 4:7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Phil. 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.

True peace in this life, is grounded in the hope that we have been given Eternal Life, through the Gospel. It is not based on sanctification or law keeping, but only on the written Word of God.

Those who have a vague, compromised, and limited understanding of the Gospel Story, will naturally have a less then certain hope that they will survive the grave. Consequently, they will lack the necessary confidence and faith to enjoy the journey, if they make it at all.

This type of trite and lazy Christian will not comprehend the Gospel, even as the legalistic type, that does study, refuses to repent and embrace correct doctrine. Gospel truth is not easy to find or understand. Which is why there is a famine in the land of Laodicea, when it comes to correct doctrine. Most every point of organized religion today is wrong, and thus it is not going to be easy to find truth in such a situation.

The J/ C religion is far too complex and confusing to understand easily. Even though there is more knowledge available than ever before, there is also more false doctrine than at any time in the history of the church. This should be a warning for all to beware.

Everyone is going to have to get more serious, and honest, about theology and church history; because salvation goes only to those smart enough to find the real Gospel. Eternal Life is not for those too lazy or too cultic to get the facts and repent. It is only for those who seriously and honest seek for Gospel truth.

Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Phil. 4:9 The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

Jude 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

Jude 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

Jude 22 And have mercy on some, who are doubting;

Jude 23 save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

Jude 24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,

Jude 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

It is time for the Adventists to repent and honestly seek the genuine Gospel and the correct Sabbath. This is the only way to stop people from leaving out the back door.

If the leaders refuse to confess and repent, which is their present position, then EVERYONE that is honestly trying to follow the Gospel teachings of Jesus, should walk out the door and organize their own local churches, free from the corruption and control of the wretched and condemned SDA hierarchy.

It is time for the last church to rise and shine so that they can do their duty and complete the Protestant Reformation.

It is time for the Adventist Community to get serious about NT prophecy, preparing for the great Tribulation and the Day of Judgment, which is the Second Coming.

Matt. 13:9 “He who has ears, let him hear.”

Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 11-26-10 7:15 pm

Question:

Can you help me understand what makes a SDA Christian toxic and how can one recognize this kind of person from someone who is a genuine leader in the church.

Jasmine

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Answer: While this discussion is focused on the SDA’s, they are not the only ones guilty of false doctrine and a toxic view of the Gospel. Every church and denomination in Laodicea has been judged by Christ as being “wretched,” spiritually “naked” and doctrinally “blind.”

Thus the true Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church, which is the Laodicean Message, has determined that all denominations are wrong and very toxic. Some are just more obviously toxic than others.

Rev. 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.

Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

All in the last church are instructed to repent and embrace Gospel Reform, not just the SDA’s. Why? Because every denomination has embraced a false Gospel and an incorrect view of the Sabbath. Their theology is “wretched” and their many views of the Gospel “miserable,” toxic, and very wrong.

All must repent of their false doctrines not just the SDA’s. But they should be the ones to repent first. Why? Because they claim to be the greatest experts about the law and the Gospel, as well as the final events and even the Sabbath.

So they should understand before all others what has gone wrong and why. They should be the first ones to comprehend the 7th day Gospel Sabbath.

But like the Jews, they don’t want to repent or give up their many errors about the Sabbath, tithe, or the Gospel. They have become like the 1st century Pharisees, complete with tithe paying, food laws, and the Old Covenant Sabbath of Moses.

So what makes any professed Christian “toxic”? What does the NT teach about such people? And where is the origin of these toxic religious leaders?

Toxic Christians in the Apostolic Church

There were many “toxic” Christians in the apostolic church. They were known as the Judaizers, or the Circumcision Party. Paul was very harsh with them, and today we should learn from his example.

Phil. 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;

Phil. 3:3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

Titus 1:10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,

Titus 1:11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.

To be specific, this group of Jewish “Christians,” was led by some former Pharisees. While they embraced Christ as the Messiah, they also taught that to be saved, the Gentiles must also submit to the Law, including circumcision, and become Jewish. Hence the derogatory term of the Circumcision Party.

Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

Acts 15:2 And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.

Acts 15:3 Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.

Acts 15:4 When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.

Acts 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”

The book of Galatians, written by the former Pharisee Paul, is a frontal attack against those toxic Christian leaders that were promoting a distorted, legalistic, and false view of the Gospel.

Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

What made the apostles James and Peter embrace such a poisonous view of the Gospel? Why did they join with the toxic Circumcision Party to promote such a twisted view of salvation?

Gal. 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.

Gal. 2:13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Gal. 2:15 “We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;

Gal. 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

It is human nature to think that the law is greater than the Gospel. Especially for those like the Jews, that had been raised to think that obedience to the law was the greatest of duty to God. This also explains why the SDA’s are also so toxic and wrong about the law and the Gospel. They too have been taught to elevate the law above the Gospel, which is why they also stand condemned and why they must repent as directed by Jesus in the Laodicean Message.

Gal. 2:21 “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

Gal. 3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

Gal. 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Gal. 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Gal. 3:4 Did you suffer so many things in vain — if indeed it was in vain?

Gal. 3:5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Those Christians who elevate the law above the Gospel, and blend Justification by faith with Sanctification, as the SDA’s have done, are “bewitched.” They soon become toxic Christians and great hypocrites, forcing one rule after another upon the church, even as they invent false doctrines to keep the people under their control.

Like the Judaizers, they think that law keeping is salvific, even as they view faith as a means to obey the law and please God.

These Old Covenant minded people are in every denomination, even though the SDA’s are perhaps the best modern day example of the Judaizers with their Sabbath keeping, tithe paying, and Jewish food laws.

The SDA’s have become so toxic over the years that they routinely fall into great debates among themselves, which have caused millions to leave in anger and disappointment.

In fact, a dozen or so years after the failed attempt at Gospel Reform, (in 1888), they were considered great legalists by the majority of their own members. Many once loyal members repudiated their confused theology and thus the SDA’s had to retreat to Takoma Park and start over again.

The SDA’s are so confused and dishonest about the Gospel that they have actually invented a special Judgment in heaven to examine ones’ level of sanctification. They call it the Investigative Judgment, and it is one of the worst, most toxic doctrines that any church has ever promoted.

When the SDA scholars finally concluded that the IJ was not taught in the Bible, the leaders refused to confess or repent. Instead, they turned against their own scholars at Glacier View and exiled those that disagreed with their false views. This 1980 rejection of the Gospel started another great schism, which is still ongoing today.

Such Gospel persecution reflects the toxic, dishonest nature of the SDA Denomination. Shame on the SDA’s for their false and worthless Gospel! They are great hypocrites and liars for all to see. Just like the Circumcision Party that Paul condemns in Galatians. Let all beware the toxic SDA’s.

Jesus versus the Religious Leaders

The church was started, against the wishes of the Jewish leaders. They fought hard against the Gospel and thus they were the prototype for those toxic Christians that would follow.

Matt. 16:6 And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

Once the church was formed, the Pharisees were the first ones to fight the Gospel, with Paul being the most famous. Their law-based theology would later become the model for those toxic Christians that would emerge from within the apostolic church.

Note how Jesus condemns these religious leaders. This record is for our edification. Let all beware of their own double-talking, religious leaders. Many of which are very dishonest and do not understand the Gospel.

Read Matt 23 and understand that this passage can be applied to anyone today that refutes the Gospel teachings of Jesus. Jesus teaches that no religious leader has any authority to refute, change, or revise what he teaches.

Matt. 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples,

Matt. 23:2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;

Matt. 23:3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

Matt. 23:4 “They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.

Matt. 23:5 “But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.

Matt. 23:6 “They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues,

Matt. 23:7 and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men.

Matt. 23:8 “But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.

Matt. 23:9 “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

Matt. 23:10 “Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

Matt. 23:11 “But the greatest among you shall be your servant.

Matt. 23:12 “Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

Matt. 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Matt. 23:14 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

Matt. 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Today, the SDA Church stands condemned for all to see. They do not follow the Gospel of Christ, nor will they repent for their many errors. They have embraced the Old Covenant errors of the Judaizers, becoming great legalists, just like the Christian Pharisees that caused so much trouble in the early church.

Let no one be fooled by the toxic SDA’s; every leader and pastor is guilty of promoting a dishonest and “distorted” Gospel, full of false doctrine, which features Old Covenant tithe paying and Sabbath keeping, and many other false doctrines. Unless they confess and repent, they are doomed.

Just like the Pharisees and the Judaizers, the SDA’s teach that the church is under the law and so too every individual, which is why they teach an Investigative Judgment in heaven, whereby all that profess Christ must prove their Sanctification and obedience to the Moral law, -especially to the Jewish Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, which is their great obsession. Such a toxic view of the Gospel is disgusting and very wrong.

Let all “watch out and beware” of the many errors of the SDA’s. No one should pay them “tithe” or embrace their false view of the Sabbath, or support their confused Gospel and endless double-talk. They are very dishonest and corrupt, which is why they are self-destructing for all to see.

Gal. 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Those who seek Eternal Life can only receive it through the faith-based teachings of Christ as recorded in the NT by his apostles. Neither Pastor nor Priest of any denomination has any doctrinal authority to refute Christ or create doctrine.

Only the NT can determine Gospel doctrine for the church. Only Christ can be called our leader and savior, no one else. Let all that seek salvation, follow only Christ and his Gospel.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for All Experts.com and Adventist Reform

hfsturges · 12-01-10 2:03 pm

From Tom's post of January 2(?):

Tom said: We have reached a point in the discussion where few try to promote the IJ or defend tithe, etc. That is what made the sparks fly over at JR’s site. It was the clash between Adventist Reform and Traditional Adventism.
While it was entertaining and even comical to watch, the TSDA’s lost the debate, even as Goldstein, their champion, was humiliated and defeated for all to see. The record speaks for itself, and so does the fact that you don’t see these IJ screamers around here anymore. They all stay away for a reason. Hiding from the facts that condemn them.
However, those who venture into this discussion, intent to promote false doctrine, myth, and legend, refusing to be honest with the issues and the facts, will get blasted as usual. So nothing has changed in that regard.

Looks like the same old song: IJ, Tithe, and a Quixotic defense of Desmond Ford. Why are the tSDAs absent from this forum? Simply because it become tiresome to go over the same ground over and over again. Here is an interesting passage from Ezekiel:

12 Then you will know that I the LORD have heard all the contemptible things you have said against the mountains of Israel. You said, "They have been laid waste and have been given over to us to devour."
13 You boasted against me and spoke against me without restraint, and I heard it.
14 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: While the whole earth rejoices, I will make you desolate. Ezekiel 35:12-14 (NIV)

hfsturges · 12-01-10 2:24 pm

Yitzak,
From the post you wrote on my birthday!

And, I agree that doctrine is important, but I maintain that I wouldn't leave a fellowship because of it. The Adventist church I attend contains a variety of views, some of which I agree with and some I don't. It contains people who consider vegetarianism a prerequisite to salvation, and people like me who don't. I don't feel an urge to kick them out, and I would be highly surprised if they wanted to kick me out. Each of us assume the Spirit will work on the other, and I hope that it does. But for some of them, it is a very fundamental doctrine. Ditto the place of the writings of Ellen White.

Adventists probably teach a more detailed understanding of Bible teachings than most other churches. I would refer back to Matthew 24 where Jesus said that His followers must beware of being deceived (3 times). We do have definite doctrines: Creation in 6 days, the Law of God, Grace, Jesus' substitutionary sacrifice on Calvary, the priesthood of Christ in Heaven, the Second Coming, the messages of the three angels, and of the fourth angel -- to mention a few.

If a person is confused on these doctrines, he might be deceived. Many of the other churches are confused on these points. A "gospel understanding" of these doctrines are what make up our concept of God. And this has a definite bearing on our relation to God. About vegetarianism and EGW: These are not required for church membership. But they are both a help for one's spirituality.

Old Abe · 12-01-10 4:24 pm

Hubert
How is vegetarianism a help to ones spirituality. Jesus said it is was not what into a man but what came out that was important.

Jesus himself ate meat like most other Jews . The Council at Jerusalem dealing with the Gentile converts did not even require them to accept Jewish dietary laws but went back to the Noahchin covenant for guidance.

If one does not wish to eat any flesh foods fine and dandy but it is not a spiritual help nor hinderance.

As far as later day prophets they would have nothing to offer unless one believed that Jesus failed in His revealtion of God. see the book of Hebrews..

While one recognises the right of the SDA church to have extra Biblical writings they deem inspired if that is what they want it takes a large amount of gall to say other Christians are somehow lesser witnesses because they are sola scriptura

hfsturges · 12-01-10 11:51 pm

Old Abe,

I need to ask you some questions:
What is the function of grace in the Christian life?
What did Jesus do for mankind on the Cross?
What are the steps the Christian must take to overcome temptation and live an exemplary life?
Please answer these questions, and we can continue the conversation.

Old Abe · 12-02-10 11:07 am

Hubert
The function of grace is to provide the possibility of eventual trimuph.
Jesus on the Cross provided mankind two things.The making available of a substitute to bear the punishment of transgression and an example of how to live or rather die.

Jesus died with love in his heart to all even those that drove the nails and those that betrayed him.

Temptation can only be overcome through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. An exemplery life can only be known by God himself who alone can read motive and method.What you or I might consider exemplery is not necessarily the same as what God would consider so.

Personally I believe we put too much emphasis on outward behaviour.

hfsturges · 12-02-10 1:02 pm

Abe,
We are saved by grace, but grace is judged by outward behavior. Read your Bible!
You did very well on what Jesus did on the Cross. Of course much more can be said, but I liked your answer.
On Temptation, what you said was true, but you missed the question. The question is "what STEPS" must the Christian take?
More to the point: Is love enough? Is belief enough? Or is there something that the Christian must do? Or, if the Christian is expected "do" something, is that legalism?

Old Abe · 12-02-10 6:16 pm

Hubert
Grace is what God through Christ showed mankind.It can not be judged by the behaviour of anyone.

And there is nothing one must "do" it has all been done for us by and in Jesus. Accepting His gift is all sufficient.Jesus taught that the only way one could loose forgiveness was by denying it to others.

Too many Christians focus on themselves SDAs included.Look after those around you Christ will do the rest.

One does not have to worry about the judgement. The accusser of the brethern has been cast down there is no prosecution without a plaintive. The record of ones transgression has been blotted out and therefore there is no evidence that the believer has ever sinned. without evidence to the contary one is therefore "perfect"in the sight of God

Yitzak · 12-02-10 8:18 pm

Bro Sturges, I can only speak for myself (and apologize for the delay, as I have been traveling with family over the holidays).

But for me, vegetarianism was probably a net negative in terms of my spirituality, albeit a slight one. I am happier, and healthier, as a carnivore, and no further from God.

As for EGW. I understand that many experience her writings as a blessing, and that is my experience of a very small set of her devotional writings.

But as for the bulk of them, I have to say that as I drew closer to EGW, as I did in my youth and my fundamentalist phase, I drew further from God, or at least the God I read in the Bible. The legalism, the endless and anachronistic rules that bear no relation to the gospel, the appeals to guilt, none of them made me a better Christian. And the way that EGW is handled in most Adventist churches is far worse than that, in my view. Her various writings seem to have a pull on the legalistic and controlling elements of many brothers and sisters, and she has contributed, after her death, to far more rancor and spiritual pain in the Adventist church than any other thing I can think of. This problem is made worse by the way Adventists often "proof-text", lifting portions of what she says out of their historical context (where it is often bad enough) and plopping it hamhandedly into modern church issues.

Some of her writings are beneficial and I cannot deny that she has been a help to many. But I believe, on balance, the church would be better off if she was quoted from the pulpit no more often than is Martin Luther, or for that matter, the prophet Amos.

She may have at one time provided some guidance for how a Christian ought to live in the late 1800s (although I am doubtful, in the main), but right now, she primarily is providing guidance on how to create silly and pointless disputes, engage in righteousness olympics, and (at best) appear very very strange to most people who operate in the 21st (or even 20th) century.

Again, not a criticism of the people who are blessed by her. Good for them. I have been blessed by Creed, and by Thomas Hardy but I can't in good faith recommend them to everyone as an unmoderated spiritual good. They are not, and neither is she.

Yitzak · 12-02-10 8:21 pm

And, belatedly, as I read too quickly. Happy birthday!!!

hfsturges · 12-02-10 9:21 pm

Yitzak,
Just to set the record straight, I should have made clear that my birthday is September 14, and it is that post that I responded to.

About EGW, it is hard to evaluate where your problem is when you deal is such generalities. If vegetarianism is what you object to, you might keep in mind that many non-SDAs have found the real benefits form the vegetarian diet. The Adventist Health Study has shown that the SDA lifestyle adds another 8 years to a person's life, on average.

As to its effect on spirituality, I cannot comment simply because it is impossible to evaluate a person's spirituality. A person's own feeling of being "close to God" is too often a deception. Just being free from guilt may be a situation where a person has no convictions to guide his life, and he is just floating along.

Am I advising you to starting reading EGW? Absolutely not. But in that case I would strongly advise that you spend at least an hour each day reading and studying the Bible to see what it really says. And (considering your name, why should I need to say this!) include the Old Testament in your reading. The New Testament cannot stand on its own, without the Old Testament.

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