The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message

tom_norris · 01-16-09 10:11 am

The SDA church is founded on the history and theology associated with the Three Angels Messages of Rev 14. This is how they defined themselves as well as their mission. Consequently, they have written much about how each message was developed, being careful to explain how the Advent Movement unfolded, and what doctrines were featured in each message.

It is easy to understand how the Pioneers defined the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message, because they wrote so much about it. In fact, in Ellen Whites 1858 version of Spiritual Gifts, this early edition of 219 pages was also called "The Great Controversy between Christ and his Angels and Satan and his Angels" Ellen White has specific chapters devoted to each of the Three Angels Messages.

Note chapters 22, William Miller; and 23; The First Angels message, and chapter 24 the Second Angels Message and chapter 27, The Sanctuary, and chapter 28; The Third Angels Message, and chapter 29 A Firm Platform, etc.

When this early work was enlarged into four volumes, between 1870 and 1884, it too was called the Great Controversy and contained the same information about the history of the Three Angels-- once again including chapters about each of these messages as well as the IJ and the Sanctuary. By the spring of 1888, the large version of the GC was published. It also contains the same basic history of the Adventist Apocalyptic as all the earlier editions written by Ellen White.

So we can easily read the Pioneers and find out how they defined the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message. It is a rather simple exercise.

However, because the White Estate has been so dishonest about Ellen White and church history over the years, many have been confused and misled about church history and doctrine. This is what has taken place about the definition of the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message. Generations of SDA's have been brainwashed to read Ellen White in an improper, dishonest, and impossible manner.

For example, the quote from the GC on page 424 is often used to prove that the IJ is located in the 1st Angels Message.

"Both the prophecy of Daniel 8:14,'Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed,' and the first angel's message, 'Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come,' pointed to Christ's ministration in the most holy place, to the investigative judgment, and not to the coming of Christ for the redemption of His people and the destruction of the wicked.

The mistake had not been in the reckoning of the prophetic periods, but in the event to take place at the end of the 2300 days. Through this error the believers had suffered disappointment, yet all that was foretold by the prophecy, and all that they had any Scripture warrant to expect, had been accomplished. At the very time when they were lamenting the failure of their hopes, the event had taken place which was foretold by the message, and which must be fulfilled before the Lord could appear to give reward to His servants."

Does this passage teach that the IJ is part of the 1st Angels Message? Hardly. Here, as elsewhere, Ellen White is discussing Millers sanctuary error of Dan 8:14. She is not saying that his historic message actually contained the IJ. In fact, she is saying the opposite.

Many have confused the EXPLANATION for the disappointment with the actual contents of Millers famous message that fulfilled the 1st Angels Message. But this is a great mistake.

Moreover, Ellen White was not saying anything that was basically different than what all of the other SDA's said about the history of the Three Angles messages and the IJ. None of them taught that the IJ was the Judgment from Historic Adventism.

In fact, U Smith wrote a large book about the IJ in 1877 called the "The Cleansing of the Sanctuary." And it is this work, more than any other, which represents the popular understanding of the IJ that was long on law and short on Gospel. (Notice how late this work is emerging. Thirty years AFTER the # 5 Pillar of the Heavenly Sanctuary had been established.)

But regardless of the soteriological problems, the SDA Pioneers were unanimous about Adventist eschatology and specifically about where each of the Three Angels Messages was placed and what doctrines belonged to what message. Not one of them claimed that the IJ was a historic Pillar from the 1st Angels message or that it represents the heart of Adventism like the leaders claim today. Ellen White certainly never said this, even though most all think otherwise.

Note how she clearly and correctly places the Second Coming as the Day of Judgment in the First Angels Message. This was always her position. There can be no other.

"To William Miller and his colaborers it was given to preach the warning in America. This country became the center of the great advent movement. It was here that the prophecy of the first angel's message had its most direct fulfillment.

The writings of Miller and his associates were carried to distant lands. Wherever missionaries had penetrated in all the world, were sent the glad tidings of Christ's speedy return. Far and wide spread the message of the everlasting gospel. 'Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come.'"

(The Great Controversy, page 368, par. 1, Chapter Title: A Great Religious Awakening.)

The doctrine of a simple pre- advent judgment in the Heavenly Sanctuary eventually grew into the IJ and became a part of Adventist eschatology. Especially with U Smith, who was the champion of this unique teaching. But it was not seen as the foundation of the movement, nor did it compete with the Second Coming, which was the "General Judgment" --to use a term that Smith employed. The Battle Creek SDA's focused on the Second Coming, the Sabbath, and later on Health Reform, but not the IJ. That obsession would take place in Takoma Park.

Uriah Smith and the IJ

While Uriah Smith came closer than anyone in the 19th century to placing the IJ in the 1st Angels message, he stopped short, seemingly frustrated that the previous generation did not understand this obvious (to him) concept that seemed to explain the great disappointment. As far as he was concerned, that previous Adventist generation SHOULD have understood that the IJ was the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message, but the facts of history, combined with the eschatological hermeneutics of the Adventist Apocalyptic essentially prevented him from making this dishonest revision about the IJ that would not occur until the 20th century. Listen to Smith on this point:

"While it is marvelous that so critical an examination of the types should not have revealed to the Adventists of that time the fact that the cleansing of the sanctuary was not the coming of Christ, nevertheless, their eyes being so holden that they did not perceive this point, and supposing that the cleansing of the sanctuary was inseparably connected with the coming of Christ, they were left with no alternative but to fix the Day for his appearing."

(The Sanctuary and Its Cleansing, Uriah Smith, 1877, chapter 29; The Seventh Month, page 285.)

In fact, even though Ellen White would not agree, Smith takes the position that the Historic Adventists had no right "to conclude" that the Second Coming was about to take place. Rather, all they should have expected on October 22 was that "the great work in the second apartment of the heavenly sanctuary would commence."

But such assumptions are only that. And Smith was forced to deal with the facts of prophetic history, not with what would have, or should have, or could have taken place. A close reading of Smith's famous work, "Thoughts on Revelation" shows how desperately he wanted to place the IJ in the 1st message. He actually discusses it under the heading of the First Angels message, but he knew it could never be placed in that historic message, so he passes the reader off to JN Andrews who had already written out the detailed historical and theological explanation of the Adventist Apocalyptic.

While Smith explains the IJ, and misleadingly places it under the heading of The First Message, he carefully and correctly notes that the IJ "commenced in the sanctuary above when this message CEASED as a leading proclamation, at the close of the prophetic periods in 1844. On this and the following messages we are more brief here, as they are set fourth in a separate work published at the Review Office, Battle Creek, Michigan." See pages 291-292. 1881 edition.

In other words, Smith DOES NOT PLACE THE IJ IN THE FIRST MESSAGE as a casual reading might indicate. Rather he places it AFTER the 1st and 2nd Messages had both "ceased" and expired. He placed it AFTER the warning about the Second Coming was given and both of the Millerite messages had terminated. So he is NOT placing it in the first message whatsoever, it just appears that way from a superficial reading.

He then directs the reader to obtain Andrews work about the Three Angels Messages, which correctly shows that the First Angels Message was fulfilled by the preaching of the Second Advent as the Day of Judgment, not by the IJ as the TSDA's and the hierarchy today claim. (See; The Three Messages of Rev 14; J N Andrews, 1877; The First Angel. p 28.)

This deference by Smith to Andrews was justified because he wrote out the classic treatise of the Three A's, as well as the Sabbath that represented the standard for the Battle Creek Community, which Smith acknowledges in his preface to the "The Sanctuary and Its Cleansing." And Smith, who was one of the most educated of all the SDA's knew better then to challenge the scholarly Andrews, as he (Andrews) understood both the proper Adventist hermeneutic about the Three A's as well as the correct history of the rise and progress of the Adventist Movement.

In fact, the topic of the IJ was so late in developing and so ignored as compared to the Sabbath, Mark of the Beast, Second Coming, State of the dead, spiritual gifts, and even Health Reform, that this is yet another proof that this late doctrine is not to be considered the same as the early and correct Pillar about the Heavenly Sanctuary that was discovered in 1844 immediately after the great disappointment.

Smith was actually puzzled that this IJ doctrine "should have lain so long unnoticed." And this curious observation provided him with "all the greater reason why...the most earnest efforts should be made to bring it to the attention of the people." Ibid, Preface, p. IV.

Because Smith and the Battle Creek Adventist did not understand the Gospel, the early, simple doctrine about Christ in the HS would be revised into the legalistic teaching known as the "Investigative Judgment." And it was this later anti Gospel revision to the fifth pillar that was championed by the Takoma Park leaders, who falsely claimed it resided in the 1st Angels message.

Not understanding the Gospel themselves, nor Adventist history, the modern leaders assumed that the IJ was part of the 1st Angels Message, when it was not. Thus, they defended a myth as if it were fundamental doctrine. But neither Smith nor Ellen White ever took such a position. Only the Second Coming is the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message. The IJ is not there, nor was it ever there. It is a false pillar.

Three Angels Messages Cannot Be Changed

Neither Smith nor Andrews were old enough to comprehend the Millerite Movement in 1844. But James and Ellen White participated in this historic Movement and consequently, they understood this prophetic history in detail. And they would never allow anyone to change these Messages as the modern SDA leaders have done. Not one Pioneer ever took the position that the IJ was a Pillar from the 1st Angels message. And neither time, nor Glacier View has changed this irrefutable, undeniable, and unchanged fact of history.

All the SDA Pioneers would quickly disown and refute Glacier View and the official positions of Traditional Adventism. Why? Because the IJ never existed within the 1st Angels Message whatsoever, at any time. This dubious doctrine was never the foundation for the Advent Movement as the SDA apologists claim today. It was never a Pillar. This means that TRADITIONAL ADVENTISM is hopelessly and forever wrong. And that Dr. Ford was correct all along.

The historic paradigm of the Three Angels is a complete package that is beyond revision and manipulation. The first foundational Message, which features the Gospel and the Judgment, cannot be changed under any circumstances.

Listen to Ellen White on this point:

"In like manner those who have had no experience in the first and second angels messages must receive them from others who had an experience and followed down through the messages."

"As Jesus was rejected, so I saw that these messages have been rejected. And as the disciples declared that there is salvation in no other name under heaven, given among men, so also should the servants of God faithfully and fearlessly warn those who embrace but a part of the truths connected with the third message, that they must gladly receive all the messages as God has given them, or have no part in the matter."

(Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 188, 189, Chapter Title: Spiritual Gifts. 1858.)

Not one SDA Pioneer would ever support what all modern SDA's have been taught about the Judgment! NOT ONE! Why? Because the Pioneers understood the rise and progress of the three Angels Messages, while our modern leaders were too busy playing politics to pay attention to the simple facts of history.

So they made a false case against Dr. Ford at Glacier View, based upon false history, and false testimony from the White Estate. The leaders found him guilty of committing apostasy against the Adventist Apocalyptic, when all along, they were the ones guilty of such a crime!

In fact, the 20th century church followed the errors of Uriah, who did not understand the Protestant Gospel. To him "Forgivness is conditional, the condition being that we comply with certain requirements upon which it is suspended, till the end of our probation. If we fail, we stand at last, unforgiven, and no atonement can be made for us." (The Sanctuary, page 280.) Ellen White would later repudiate this legalism, but the church covered this up and pretended that she supported Traditional Adventism when she did not.

All the SDA pioneers had limited views about the Gospel. This was a direct result of their mission to protect the law and promote Sabbath Reform. In fact, the whole point of Smiths 1877 book about the IJ was to promote the Sabbath, not the IJ, which was the primary doctrine of the Third Angels Message.

Listen to Smith say as much in the concluding chapter of the most famous book on the IJ ever written: "He who receives what we here set forth as the truth on this subject will inevitably keep the seventh-day as the Sabbath. There is no avoiding it. And he will believe in the soon coming of Christ. In other words, he will be a Seventh-Day Adventist." Ibid. p.332

The 1st Angels Message

The definition of the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message can be easily understood by reading the Great Controversy, especially chapter 18, An American Reformer. Here Ellen White clearly shows what doctrine was proclaimed in the 1st Message, and guess what? The IJ is nowhere in sight. Only the Second Coming represented the "hour of his Judgment has come."

"To William Miller and his colaborers it was given to preach the warning in America. This country became the center of the great advent movement. It was here that the prophecy of the first angel's message had its most direct fulfillment."

The Great Controversy, page 368, Chapter Title: A Great Religious Awakening.

Did William Miller proclaim the IJ? Not at all. He proclaimed the Second Coming as the Day of Judgment. THAT IS THE JUDGMENT PILLAR FROM THE 1ST ANGELS MESSAGE, NOT THE IJ, which did not exist as yet. This is an irrefutable fact that can never be changed or ignored.

"In preaching the doctrine of the Second Advent, William Miller and his associates had labored with the sole purpose of arousing men to a preparation for the judgment." The Great Controversy, page 375, Chapter Title: A Warning Rejected.

Unlike Smith who thought that the Millerites should have proclaimed the IJ, Ellen White did not agree because she viewed the first two messages that led to the great disappointment as the direct fulfillment of prophecy; "Prophecy was fulfilled in the first and second angels messages. They were given at the right time, and accomplished the work God designed they should." EW page p. 150, Chapter 25.

The preaching of the Second Coming as the Day of Judgment is the fulfillment of the 1st Angels Mission. The IJ was nowhere in sight.

Although neither Ellen White, nor the SDA Pioneers are guilty of confusing the Three Angles Messages, like our modern leaders have done today, there were serious theological errors in their eschatology that must be corrected. Aside from the obvious that Christ had already been in the most holy place for 1800 years prior to 1844, there was some glaring soteriological errors that begged for correction.

For instance on page 428, in the chapter called "In The Holy of Holies" Ellen White writes that: "This work of examination of character, of determining who are prepared for the kingdom of God, is that of the investigative judgment, the closing work in the sanctuary above."

While this pre-1888 view is very wrong and against the Gospel, it is not saying that the IJ was in the First Angels Message. Why? Because the IJ was associated with the development of the 3rd Angels Message, not the 1st. Which means that the Takoma Park apologists are very wrong to claim otherwise. Listen to Smith:

"That the time of the cleansing of the sanctuary," (see proposition 10,) "synchronizing with the time of the proclamation of the third message, is a time of investigative judgment, first, with reference to the dead, and secondly, at the close of probation, with reference to the living, to determine who of the myriads now sleeping in the dust of the earth are worthy of a part in the first resurrection, and who of its living multitudes are worthy of translation, - points which must be determined before the Lord appears."

U Smith, # 21 of the Battle Creek Fundamentals.

Thus, the SDA's did not associate or "synchronize" the IJ with the First Angels Message, --as the leaders claimed at Glacier View. It was never located in the first Message, and it can never be there. This means that the IJ is not a fundamental Pillar. Rather it is a fundamental error and Fraud that has led the Adventist Movement into darkness and self-destruction.

http://www.calacreek.com/religious/USmi … sofsda.htm

In fact, AFTER 1888, Ellen White would repudiate this IJ based legalism by claiming that Jesus' character is a substitute for our character. Such a statement makes the IJ useless and wrong, even as it wars against the error of legalism that had overtaken the SDA's.

Many of the leaders, like Uriah Smith, Butler, etc, NEVER accepted this Gospel revision by Ellen White. They continued to think that our works play a part in the Gospel formula and that forgiveness is contingent on our future performance, --which would be examined at the IJ. But at no time did any of them teach or think that the IJ was the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message. That historic doctrine of the Judgment was only the Second Coming.

Listen to Ellen White as she greatly modifies her pre 1888 Gospel position in Steps To Christ, Chapter 7, A Test Of Discipleship: <BR> <BR>

"We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned."

The IJ had nothing to do with substitution. It was an examination of ones character to see if they were good enough to be saved. Thus, Ellen White cleared the way for the IJ to be repudiated at a later time. But when that time came, in 1980,the leaders failed to understand church history or the Gospel correctly.

The 3rd Angels Message is built directly on top of the first two Millerite Messages. This is beyond dispute. And for SDA's there can be no reworking of this prophetic paradigm, nor can this history ever be subject to dishonest revision for political or other reasons. Thus the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message can only be the Second Coming and never the IJ. That is all it ever was.

Listen to Ellen White in 1858 make this very point in the earliest version of the Great Controversy.

"I saw a company who stood well guarded and firm, giving no countenance to those who would unsettle the established faith of the body. God looked upon them with approbation. I was shown three steps-- the first, second, and third angels' messages. Said my accompanying angel, 'Woe to him who shall move a block or stir a pin of these messages. The true understanding of these messages is of vital importance.'"

(Early Writings of Ellen G. White, 1858, also known as: Spiritual Gifts / and The Great Controversy. page 158, Chapter Title: A Firm Platform.)

There can be no legitimate change in the history or the basic theological structure of the Three Angels Messages. To do so is to commit apostasy.

However, this is why Glacier View is now famous. This was where the leaders, in their quest to elevate the law over the Gospel, made the horrible mistake of dishonestly scrambling the Three A's into an amalgamation of falsehood and deceit. Glacier View is where the leaders, NOT DR. FORD, refuted every SDA Pioneer that has ever lived, including and especially Ellen White.

The Three A's represent eschatological truth for the modern world. These messages are to remain intact, without dishonest revision until the end of the world. It is time for all who are Protestant and Adventist to take another look at this remarkable eschatological paradigm and to pay close attention to the truths that they contain.

"While you hold the banner of truth firmly, proclaiming the law of God, let every soul remember that the faith of Jesus is connected with the commandments of God. The third angel is represented as flying through the midst of heaven, crying with a loud voice, 'Here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.'"

"The first, second, and third angels messages are all linked together. The evidences of the abiding, ever-living truth of these grand messages, that mean so much to us, that have awakened such intense opposition from the religious world, cannot be extinguished.

Satan is constantly seeking to cast his hellish shadow about these messages, so that the remnant people of God shall not clearly discern their import, their time, and place; but they live, and are to exert their power upon our religious experience while time shall last."

Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, page 926, paragraph 3.

It is a great mistake to confuse the historic theology associated with the First Angels Message with the explanation for the disappointment that took place in 1844. Not one SDA Pioneer would allow such a change, as it would effectively nullify their prophetic paradigm and place them in the same camp as those Millerites who abandoned these messages after the great disappointment.

Moreover, this hermeneutical blunder of thinking that these first two messages are subject to revision and change has opened a Pandora's box that has allowed the legalists to place doctrines in that First Message, like the IJ, that were never there, and can never be there. Then to make matter worse, they claim that this is what Ellen White believed when that was never the case.

So I stand firm with all the SDA Pioneers, including Ellen White, who knew the difference between the prophetic contents of Miller's Message and the later explanation of his sanctuary error in Dan 8:14.

I suggest that all SDA's stop lifting statements out of context from Ellen White's published writings, and go back and study the formation and history of the Three Angels messages, including the works of James White in order to better understand what the SDA Pioneers were really saying about these prophetic messages.

In conclusion, we are saying that the White Estate has been very dishonest and incompetent. They have misrepresented Ellen White views to the church on a number of critical points.

Ellen White does not support Traditional Adventism or what happened at Glacier View; She does not have doctrinal authority, and her visions were always trumped by the Study of the Bible.

Moreover, she never claimed that the IJ was in the 1st Angels Message, and in fact, wrote in her books that only the Second Coming was the judgment in the 1st Angels Message.

After 1888, she changed her view of salvation and embraced the Protestant Gospel. She repudiated Uriah Smith's view of the Two Covenants along with character perfection and all legalism. She did not support Traditional Adventism as the SDA church has claimed all these years, nor would she have supported Glacier View as the leaders have claimed.

I suggest that all SDA's study the facts and stop allowing generations of worthless propaganda from the White Estate and the Review to confuse them.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Last edited by tom_norris (03-27-10 5:24 pm)

billdljr · 02-18-09 3:37 pm

A few years ago we published this essay on:

Judgment in the New Testament

The distinctive features of Old Testament judgment are carried forward into the New. There are two striking features of the New Testament emphasis:

1. In the New Testament, eschatology the last things is concentrated in a person. Christ Himself is the long-promised Messiah. As Ruler Micah 5:2 and Judge, He is sent by God as the new Moses to deliver Israel. Just as Israel said to Moses, Who made you ruler and judge over us? Ex. 2:14, NIV, so the Jews refused their King and Judge. But He was the embodiment of the kingdom rule of God and the judgment of God. Judgment is, in fact, one of the aspects of the Kingdom of God. 15 All men are to be judged by Christ, and that judgment will be based on their attitude to Him.

2. The New Testament does not lessen the Old Testament impression that there will be a future final day of judgment. Rather, it deepens the impression. The reality and seriousness of the future judgment pervade the teachings of Jesus. Nearly half of His parables concern the final judgment. Pauls thought is also dominated by the expectation of the day of wrath and righteous judgment of God Rom. 2:5.

But the New Testament differs from the Old Testament in showing that the future kingdom has already broken into history in the person and work of Jesus Christ. The New Testament everywhere announces the fulfillment of what was promised in the Old Testament. Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing Luke 4:2 1, NIV; cf. Matt. 5:17; Mark 1:15; Acts 13:32, 33.

With the arrival of Christ, the King is in the midst of His people Zeph. 3:15. Since He is the embodiment of the kingdom of God, He announces: The kingdom of God has arrived;Mark 1:15, Phillips. The kingdom of God has come to you Luke 11:20, NIV. The kingdom of God is among you. Luke 17:21, NIV, margin. This was so because the King was among His people.

We have already established the unity of the office of ruler and judge. So we can say that when Christ arrived, the Judge was in the midst of His people. Jesus not only announced that He would exercise the prerogatives of the judge at the last day, but that He was already present to exercise His prerogative of judgment. He [God] has given Him [Christ] authority to judge because He is the Son of Man John 5:27, NIV.

The works of Christ were the works of a judge. On one hand, He preached the gospel to the poor, raised the dead, released men from their sins and healed the sick. This was in fulfillment of Scripture:

With righteousness He will judge the needy, with justice He will give decisions for the poor of the earth. —Isa. 11:4, NIV.

He will bring justice to the nations. . A bruised reed He will not break. —Isa. 42:1, 3, NIV.

... good news to the poor. ... bind up the brokenhearted, ... freedom for the captives and release for the prisoners. —Isa. 61:1, NIV.

His work of forgiving sins is especially a manifestation of the work of a judge. In view of Jesus message of future judgment, forgiveness is urgent. Before the great assize presented by Jesus, man is absolutely without merit. But Jesus is not merely another prophet who preaches about the coming judgment or about God's mercy. He is the Judge, and in the present time He offers acquittal to those who confess that they are destitute of merit and who put their trust in Him. His word of forgiveness is a word of final authority because it is the word of the Judge. He brings divine forgiveness to earth now Mark 2:5.

The Pharisees understood what Jesus was doing. They said it was blasphemy for Him to forgive sins, because only God the Judge could do this. They knew that Jesus was exercising the office of liberating men before Gods judgment seat. This present, freeing activity of the Son of Man, who embodies the judgment of God, is the thrilling power of Christs gospel. Life is hopeless and intolerable without the words of Jesus,Your sins are forgiven.

On the other hand, the office of the Ruler and Judge is to sift and separate His people. To judge is to sift.

The Lord.., shall suddenly come to His temple.... And who shall stand when He appeareth?—Mal. 3:1, 2 cf. John 2:13-17.

His winnowing fork is in His hand.—Matt. 3:12, NIV.

Christs act of purging the temple was the act of a judge.

We have seen that judgment may mean deliverance or doom. So it was in the ministry of Christ. He opened blind eyes and blinded open eyes. He forgave some and hardened others. Jesus said, For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind. John 9:39, NIV. In their reaction to Christ, judgment was already passing upon men.

From the perspective of the Old Testament, the end time, with Gods judgment of the world as its central concern, is seen as a single event. But when we come to the New Testament, we see that the end time is not a single event. In proclaiming the fulfillment of the Old Testament promises in Christ, the New Testament proclaims that the end-time events have already been inaugurated; yet it still points forward to a future consummation. From the perspective of the New Testament the end-time events unfold in three dimensions—the cross, Pentecost and the Parousia.

Judgment in Christ

The Christ Event—Eschatological. The death and resurrection of Christ was an eschatological event which inaugurated the end times:

1. It was the fulfillment of the promises in the Old Testament which begin with the eschatological expression, ;In that day... Isa. 11:10; 26:1; Amos 9:11; Zeph. 3:14-17; Zech. 13:.

2. It is declared to be an end-time event.

But when the time had fully come... .—Gal. 4:4, NIV.

In these last [eschaton] days He [God] has spoken to us by His Son.—Heb. 1:2, NIV.

He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.—Heb. 9:26, NIV.

He . . . was revealed in these last [eschaton] times for your sake.—1 Peter 1:20, NIV.

3. It inaugurated the special period of time called the last days—the period between the resurrection and the Parousia:

In the last [eschatais] days... I will pour out My Spirit. —Acts 2:17, NIV.

... on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.—1 Cor. 10:11, NIV.

This is the last hour; and.., many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.—1 John 2:18, NIV.

4. Many texts speak of Christs Parousia being at hand and coming soon (Rom. 13:11, 12; 1 Cor. 7:29; Phil. 4:5; Heb. 10:37; 1 Peter 4:7; Rev. 1:1, 3.

The end began with the coming of Jesus.... The early Christian writings also see their own present as the last time, demonstrated on the one hand by the outpouring of the Spirit Ac. 2:17 ... and on the other by evil times, by scoffers, by the coming of Antichrist etc. 2 Tm.3:1; Jn.5:3...; 2 Pt.3:3... ; Jd.18...; 1 Jn.2:18....At the same time, there is also expectation of the coming last day.18

The presence and power of the Spirit are a token that the last days have arrived, but the duration of the last days does not affect their character as the last days.19

In Christ—the Judgment of the World. At the center of biblical eschatology is Gods judgment of the world. If the Christ event was an end-time event, it was the inauguration of Gods judgment of the world. This is established by the following evidence:

1. God is the God of judgment Mal. 2:17. All His Ways are judgment, Deut. 32:4. We have seen that the great acts of God in the Old Testament—the Flood, the Exodus, the captivity and the fall of Babylon—were all acts of God's judgment. More than this, they were typological. They pointed away to the act of all acts in the death and resurrection of Christ. If the Christ event was the great act of God, it was an act of judgment.

2. This act of God in Christ is presented by Paul in Romans in the context of a great arraignment of Jew and Gentile to the judgment bar of God. All are guilty before the Judge. Then God reveals His righteousness Rom. 1:17; 3:21, 25. We have seen that God's righteousness is His act of judgment. Christ is publicly set forth as our mercy seat or place of atonement Rom 3:25. God's judgment on sin falls on Him. The cross of Christ is the visible, historical manifestation of the wrath of God.

This is the horror of the judgment: God is silent. . . . A Hell, deeper and hotter than anything one might imagine from myths and fairy stories about places of torment, has opened its maw, devoured Gods Son, and become all-victorious.20

3. Hebrews presents the death of Christ in the context of the proceedings of the Day of Atonement Heb. 1:3; 2:17; 9; 10. He is shown to be sacrifice, High Priest and mercy seat. The whole Day of Atonement was fulfilled at Calvary. According to Hebrews, this was Yom Kippur. The Day of Atonement was a day of judgment.21

4. Calvary was accompanied by the same eschatological signs of the judgment day as the theophany at Mt. Sinai.

5. Specific texts also indicate that the Christ event was the inauguration of Gods judgment of the world:

Now is the time for judgment on this world.—John 12:31, NIV.

God did [this] by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned [judged] sin in sinful man.—Rom. 8:3, NIV.

One died for all, and therefore all died.—2 Cor. 5:14, NIV.

As man is destined . . . to face judgment, so Christ. . . .—Heb. 9:27, 28, NIV.

Death is Gods judgment on sin, and Christ bore that judgment Isa. 53. The terms of the covenant must be executed. Christ bore our curse Gal. 3:11-13

The Christ Event—Punishment and Salvation of Mankind. Gods judgment means both punishment and salvation:

1. Christs death was Gods judgment of punishment upon the race:

In Christs death God has sat in judgment, has judged sin, and in this way he has caused his eschatological judgment to be revealed in the present time....

Christs death was the demonstration of the judging and justifying judgment of God in the eschatological sense of the word because the old aeon and the old man were judged in him, and justification unto life and the new creation came to light in him as the second Adam.

2. In the resurrection God raised Jesus from the dead and in Him restored humanity to favor at His own right hand Rom. 4:25; Eph. 2:1-6. This was Gods judgment of pardon for the race, a righteous judgment because it was based on the full satisfaction that Christ gave to the divine law on our behalf.

Just as Christs death was a demonstration of Gods righteous judgment on the sin of the world, visited on him as the means of propitiation, so his resurrection was the demonstration and proof of the acquitting righteousness of God.24

3. The infinite greatness of Gods merciful judgment toward us is revealed in the resurrection and exaltation of Jesus Christ to the right hand of God. We must remember that humanity was represented in Christs exaltation so that all the favors shown Him were shown to humanity. The ascension scene is not set before us to teach us the exaltation of the divinity of Christ, because that was always exalted. It is to teach us the exaltation of our humanity in Christ.

In the death and resurrection of Christ we see the amazing contrast between man's estimate of Christ and himself and Gods estimate of Christ and humanity. Christ was presented to Israel as their King. They refused Him and had Him crucified. In putting this value on their real Representative, they put the same value on themselves. Now let us see the value which God placed on humanity in the resurrection of Christ:

Lift up your heads, O you gates;... that the King of glory may come in.... He is the King of glory. —Ps. 24:7, 10, NIV [Ascension Psalm].

Sit at My right hand. —Ps. 110:1, NIV. [This is the Old Testament scripture most frequently quoted in the New Testament.]

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.—Matt. 28:18, NIV.

Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter His glory?—Luke 24:26, NIV.

The Father.., has entrusted all judgment to the Son.... He has given Him authority to judge because He is the Son of Man [an allusion to Daniel 7:13].—John 5:22, 27, NIV.

Father, the time has come. Glorify Your Son.... You granted Him authority over all people.—John 17:1, 2, NIV.

God has raised this Jesus to life.... [Being] exalted to the right hand of God.... [Ps. 110:1 quoted.] ... God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified [notice the contrast], both Lord and Christ.—Acts 2:32-36, NIV.

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.... For He has put everything under His feet.—1 Core 15:25, 27, NIV.

He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under His feet and appointed Him to be head over everything for the church.—Eph. 1:20-22, NIV.

... who has gone into heaven and is at Gods right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to Him.—1 Peter 3:22, NIV. ... the Ruler of the kings of the earth.—Rev. 1:5, NIV.

Someone like a Son of Man [Dan. 7:13]....

I hold the keys of death and Hades.—Rev. 1:13, 18, NIV.

He will rule them with an iron scepter...just as I have received authority from My Father.—Rev. 2:27, NIV.

I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.—Rev. 3:21, NIV.

... in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll.... He came and took the scroll from the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.—Rev. 5:1, 7, NIY. [The race is given into the hands of Christ.]

Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. —Rev. 12:10, NIV.

4. John Calvin explains that the expression, right hand of the Father, means that Christ has been given

the tasks of ruling and governing.... [He] was invested with lordship over heaven and earth, and solemnly entered into possession of the government committed to him.... He... entered into possession once for all.... It makes no difference that in the book of The Acts, Stephen declares that he saw him standing [Acts 7:55]. For here it is a question, not of the disposition of his body, but of the majesty of his authority. Thus to sit means nothing else than to preside at the heavenly judgment seat.

Ridderbos says:

But the same thing, viz., that for Christ, too, the resurrection meant his investiture with power in accordance with Daniel 7, is even more clearly expressed in the resurrection statement, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. This is a clear reference to the prophecy in Daniel 7:14, not only as to the fact but in the words themselves.... The phrase, I have been given aorist: edothe!, indicates the change that had come about since his earthly mode of existence as the Messiah. His status and glory are now in accordance with what is said in Daniel 7 about the Son of Man to whom, also, there was given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, when he came to the Ancient of days with the clouds of heaven.

F. F. Bruce gives an excellent presentation of the Old Testament promises that the Son of David would sit on Davids throne and rule the house of Israel. Bruce shows their fulfillment in Christ:

Again, in the Epistle to the Hebrews, Jesus is viewed as the One to whom Yahweh in Psalm 110 says not only Sit at my right hand, so that the throne of David is now absorbed in the heavenly throne of glory and grace but also, You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. David, by his conquest of Jerusalem, became heir to Melchizedeks royal priesthood, but it is in the ascension and heavenly session of Jesus Christ that the fullness of this heritage is realized.27

In Jesus the promise is confirmed, the covenant is renewed, the prophecies are fulfilled, the law is vindicated, salvation is brought near, sacred history has reached its climax, the perfect sacrifice has been offered and accepted, the great priest over the household of God has taken his seat at God&s right hand, the Prophet like Moses has been raised up, the Son of David reigns, the kingdom of God has been inaugurated, the Son of Man has received dominion from the Ancient of Days, the Servant of the Lord, having been smitten to death for his peoples transgression and borne the sin of many, has accomplished the divine purpose, has seen light after the travail of his soul and is now exalted and extolled and made very high.28

In light of the overwhelming evidence that Christ is already glorified, enthroned, reigning, ruler of the kings of the earth, entered into His glory and sitting on the Fathers throne, is the old distinction between kingdom [throne] of grace and kingdom [throne] of glory adequate? If it limits the present sovereignty of Christ and the glory of His reign, it is contrary to the New Testament. While Zechariah 6:13 says that He will be a priest on His throne. NIV, we must not conclude that this is only a priestly throne. Christ is not an Aaronic priest but a priest after the order of Melchizedek—that is, He has the dual role of King and Priest, Lord and Christ. So His throne is both a royal Davidic throne and a priestly throne. Because it is priestly, it is a throne of grace. Heb. 4:16. In His reign He deigns to be gracious to poor sinners who flee to Him for refuge.

We must not have an Old Testament mentality that still waits for the King to reign. The gospel declares to Zion, Your God reigns! Isa. 52:7, NIV; cf. Ps. 97, 99, 145. It is not now a matter of waiting for Christ to gain sovereignty over the world. He has gained the sovereignty, and everything in heaven and earth is already under His feet, in submission to Him. We wait only for the evil powers to come to the realization of reality so that they will give up the struggle and become His footstool. Then the reign of Christ, which has already been inaugurated, will be consummated.

The difference between the reign of the now and the reign of the not yet is that Christs present reign is invisible to this world although not inactive, but at the consummation it will become visible. Matt. 25:31.

Even Revelation 11:15-17 does not refer to the commencement of the reign at the last trump, for the voices sing: The kingdom of the world has become [Greek aorist: literally, became, indicating a once-and-for-all past action whose results are going on] the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ.

You have taken [perfect tense: literally, you took and are taking Your great power and have begun [Greek aorist: past action] to reign.& —Rev. 11:15, 17, NIV cf. Ps. 97:1; 99:1.

Thus, the song of Revelation 11 is a song of praise, for Christs reign has brought the great consummation.

It is not biblically correct to say that Christ will become King after finishing His work of judgment. He could not judge unless He was already enthroned as a King. But the session at the right hand of God means that He is both Ruler and Judge. The Father.., has entrusted all judgment to the Son John 5:22, NIV. Christ is Lord! Just as at His ascension He took the throne and began to reign, so He began to judge. Judgment is one of the key ideas in the book of Revelation. Indeed, it is a book of judgment. Christ is presented as Ruler/Judge of both the church and the nation. In the last judgment His reign will be consummated. That is to say, the last judgment is the last act of His reign.

In Revelation 1-3 Christ is presented as the Ruler/Judge of the churches: He is the Danielic Son of Man, who holds the keys of David and of hell and death. In judgment He removes the candlestick if the church does not repent. He searches hearts and minds Rev. 2:23, comes as a thief Rev. 3:3 and confesses His people before His Father Rev. 3:5. Thus, the first three chapters of Revelation are full of the imagery of an active Judge.

In Revelation 4 and 5 Christ takes the scroll from the Father. The parallels between this vision and Daniel 7 are obvious. Apostate churches and persecuting powers are both visited with judgments as Christ directs the battle from the throne. All history bears the marks of Christ, the Ruler/Judge. The great events of unfolding history are to be seen as the expression of His judgment, leading to the final judgment.

Summary. The death and resurrection of Christ were the inauguration of Gods judgment of the world. In Christs death God judged mens sin. In His resurrection God installed the Son of Man on His throne as Ruler and Judge. Christs eschatological reign was thereby inaugurated.

billdljr · 02-18-09 11:48 pm

Elaine,

Of course your remark is derogatory! I am nobody's alter ego. Perhaps you should just go into the threads where you can just yak at each other. The subject is the biblical meaning of judgment.

If this topic does not interest you why not just pass over to other topics. From the flavor of all of your other posts, why would you even look in on a thread which deals with honest intellectual discussion of biblical themes. All you seem to be able to do whenever anyone takes the bible as the word of God is to mock, ridicule, and make snide remarks.

This is after all a Seventh-day Adventist forum. From your posts it is obvious that you have no part with Adventism so why not just sit back and allow those who are Adventists to discuss Adventist topics. If the posts seem too long to you, don't read them. There is nothing in what I have posted that would interest you anyway.

I think that you take advantage of the liberality of the moderators of this forum to demean everything that Adventists stand for. Demeaning Adventism and conservative Christianity in general seems to be your favorite hobby. Is it any wonder that most members of the Adventist community would never post on this forum.

There is so much unbelief here that if a typical member of the Adventist church would post his beliefs the liberals, agnostics, and outright atheists on this forum would run him out of the forum with ridicule.

admin · 02-19-09 7:33 am

Haha, I thought Elaine's comment was rather funny.

Bill, these forums are liberally moderated by me. I typically allow freedom of most thoughts on here. I guess the annoying thing about freedom of speech is how people just don't agree. Oh well.

Also, I bet you'd discover that most members of the Adventist community would never post on this forum because they probably don't know about it. Thanks for denigrating the forum, though. Fortunately, I'm liberal enough to let you have your say. Unfortunately, however, you got on Elaine's case for getting off topic, which resulted in your being off topic as well.

Elaine has just as much right to post in this topic as you do. If you advise her to pass over this thread since she strayed from Tom's initial topic, I suggest you do the same. Otherwise, accept/ignore her comments and just let it be.

Ryan

billdljr · 02-19-09 11:18 am

Ryan,

Thanks for the advice.

Message edited by billdljr on February 19, 2009

don · 02-19-09 10:37 pm

eyes become glazed at a book-length essay.

If long essays kept coming with no reasonable dialogue, my eyes too would glaze over. But, Elaine, you have forwarded your education to the Master's level, if I remember correctly. A few long scholarly posts should be a piece of cake for you.

http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Bill D, this atomorrow environment can seem terribly unfriendly and hostile. Patience and consistency in posting along with Christian manners eventually makes its impact.

billdljr · 02-19-09 10:40 pm

Ryan,

I suppose that since you don't really want an intelligently run forum where one can post without cat calls and verbal abuse, I will look for another place where Adventists can actually be taken seriously. You can have your forum all to yourself.

maggie · 02-19-09 11:08 pm

Bill, Hubb has a forum where you would be safe to disuss. Not that I want you to leave at all!

I think there is real substance and thought behind what you posted, and I'm interested in reading more:

If we faithfully proclaim everything the New Testament apostles proclaimed about the judgment, have we not done all that it is our duty to do?

Or do we yet pretend we have more light than that final revelation of the Christian religion given in the era of the Christ event?

The apostolic gospel is not only the greater light. It is a great simplifier.

Some of the traditional Adventist explanations of Daniel 8:14 have tended to be so clumsy that most have abandoned the attempt to explain this passage from the Bible.

We must now take the sharper sword of the apostolic gospel.

The fact that people didn't want to take time to read it doesn't lessen its value, IMO.

maggie · 02-19-09 11:17 pm

Bill, I see you were posting on atomorrow.com back in 2002.

I wonder if you weren't around enough to get a feel for the rough and tumble atmosphere? Not much has changed over the years.

Ryan pretty much lets people talk and work things out here also.

That doesn't mean you have to like it, and I understand if you don't.

admin · 02-19-09 11:19 pm

Bill,

Bye, then. I'm sorry you';re unable to ignore the undesirable posts, but that's something you'll have to work on yourself. The Internet isn't a friendly place and it's not my goal to support a sterile environment that doesn't encourage an OPEN discussion.

Don't like what someone says? What's the problem? Just ignore it and move on.

By the way, I take offense at your claim that I do not want an intelligently run forum. That can easily be construed as you stating that I am inept and unintelligent. But, guess what? I can ignore that statement because I understand that people can be very unfriendly and unhelpful.

Bill, this forum isn't mine to have. It's for anyone who is interested in open discussion and debate, no matter if there are people who may post cat calls or verbal abuse;... which is the nature of the Internet.

Ryan

john8verse32 · 02-20-09 2:12 pm

and Bill D.... stick around...your comments seem worth considering.. if a little lengthly.

remember: beauty is often in the eyes of the beerholder... so here's my spin

sometimes you need to wait and see how things turn out for a 180 degree change of viewpoint.

http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/11/633.gif

Message edited by john8verse32 on February 20, 2009

billdljr · 08-16-09 10:47 am

Tom,

It has been six months since I posted an in-depth comment regarding the meaning of the first angels message of Revelation 14. I realize that my two posts were very detailed and take some time to look over and digest but it would be great to receive some feed back from you regarding the interpretation that was offered. I realize that my offering does not quite agree with your view that the term hour of his judgment is come refers only to the executive judgment of the world at the second coming of our Lord.

The writers of the New Testament believed that the proclamation of the everlasting gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue and people constituted the beginning of Christs reign and kingdom. Christ is now set down upon His throne and He is now judging the nations and people of the world by virtue of His victory over sin and the kingdom of Satan. As King and Judge He renders His verdict upon nations and all the powers of earth which are arrayed against His rule and authority. He carries out His decisions brings about the fulfillment of His will through warnings and proclamations by His heavenly and earthly messengers in the Church upon the earth. He calls the world to faith and repentance and also He punishes those who would hurt and destroy His servants and His elect remnant. This is the entire theme of the book of Revelation. The final second coming of Christ openly discloses the final verdict and destruction of all the kingdoms of this world who oppose Christ's rule and He delivers His elect bride, called the 144,000, the Israel of the New Covenant ratified by His blood.

So Tom, what I am proposing is that your view that the judgment referred to in Revelation 14 is rather incomplete and that it is not merely the second coming of Christ but also Christs rule and Kingdom established upon His ascension into heaven when He is enthroned as King of Kings and Lord of Lords awaiting until He has made all of His enemies His footstool.

Of course the pioneer view that the so-called investigative judgment& did not begin until October 22, 1844 is a very immature view but there is definitely great light in the view that the cases of all the worlds peoples are being decided now and in the present, based upon their response to the proclamation of the everlasting gospel in Jesus Christ as the Lamb of God. In other words, they were not necessarily wrong in what they affirmed but rather in what they overlooked and denied. They thought that their message was one of amazing new light, which they had discovered when in fact the Lord was calling them to merely recover the message of the ongoing nature of the Judgment Hour which actually began at our Lord's ascension.

In this judgment hour, names are added to the book of Life and names are being blotted out. This is the work of Christ as our great high priest mediates His righteousness for all the repentant sinners of the world. He is the Judge, King, and Priest for all who call upon Him. He judges in favor of His people and He judges in condemnation of all who rebel against His Law. Call this the "investigative judgment" if some like this term but it is altogether biblical. As Peter proclaimed in 1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

I would encourage you to read Revelation in the light of what I have just offered and you will see that the text is revealing the enthronement and rule and judgments of our Lord as He is seated upon His throne pouring out His judgments upon the kingdom of Babylon and calling all who would obey the gospel to come out of her.

Best regards,

Bill Diehl

billdljr · 08-17-09 12:09 pm

Tom,

Regarding your assessment of the EG White Estate, there certainly is enough blame to go around in every direction in regards to misunderstanding the phenomenon of Ellen Whites life, ministry, and charismatic gift. The White estate has circled the wagons and wont give an inch in its ultra conservative approach.

But I wonder though whether Ellen White herself was ever able to come to grips with the idea that the pioneer view of Christian era date-setting was based upon a very questionable method of biblical interpretation. She herself was absolutely convinced of the biblical accuracy of such dates as AD.1844 for the beginning of the most holy place ministry of Christ and the commencement of the three angels messages of Revelation 14. Dates such as AD.538-1798 as the fulfillment of the 42 months of Revelation, rise of the USA as fulfillment of Revelation 13s image to the beast, and 457BC.-34AD. as the fulfillment of Daniel 9 were, for her, bottom line absolutes which she was psychologically unable to relinquish.

I think that her greatest fear was that if there were a compromise in the area of & date setting that the Advent movement would lose all of the ground that it had gained in the recovery of vital doctrinal areas of reform.

We conservative Adventists of today can look back upon the methods of interpretation employed by the pioneers of Adventism and greatly admire them for the amazingly advanced doctrinal reforms which they were able to accomplish in spite of their limited skills in the area of biblical apocalyptic interpretation.

Adventism has advanced the Protestant Reformation in spite of rather than because of its immaturity in the area of literal date setting for the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. If only our brothers like Cliff Goldstein and other conservative authors and administrators in the SDA movement could come to grips with this fact great good could be accomplished in healing the wounds suffered by the events of the 1970s when opposition to the ministries of Bob Brinsmead and Walter Rae caused the loss of so many of our faithful ministers and members through disfellowshipment and disillusionment.

The fact is that Adventism does not stand or fall on its interpretations of prophecy. The advances it has made in recovering the third use of the Law, defending the Genesis account of creation which has sent Darwinism reeling backward, the pre-advent judgment truth which devastates hyper-Calvinism, the recovery of the true Sabbath of the bible which reveals the fallacy of Sunday keeping, the exposing of the errors of pretribulational Dispensationalism with its Campbellite antinomianism, declaring the Papacy to be the Man of Sin, exposing the errors of Spiritualism and lie of the natural immortality of the soul, the true understanding of how God will totally destroy the unrepentant in hell and thus the exposing the lie of perpetual suffering of the lost in hell fire, and finally the teaching that Christians should take care of their bodies through obeying the laws of good health and hygiene have made Seventh-day Adventism the great movement that it is today despite all of its weaknesses.

Best regards,

Bill Diehl

tom_norris · 08-17-09 9:17 pm

Bill, you are wrong to give a pass to the White Estate or the GC that owns, houses, and controls this corrupt publisher of propaganda and myth.

These guys have been lying and deceiving people about Ellen White for generations and they have not repented or even explained what they have been doing, even though they know they have been caught. They are master manipulators and I can assure you that Ellen White would not be pleased with how she has been misrepresented by the White Estate all these years.

Moreover, Glacier View was based on the fraud of the White Estate. That is why neither TA nor the outcome of this religious trial can stand. Dr. Ford was not only correct about the Gospel and how to view Ellen White, but his version of the Three Angels Messages was the only one that Ellen White ever endorsed. Arthur White's version is a farce and a fraud. The IJ was never a pillar, much less in the 1st Angels Message.

This fraud and twisting of the facts by the Takoma Park apologists was no accident. I found the documents and confronted Arthur White before Glacier View, so I know for a fact what he did and why. The White Estate is a criminal enterprise. They have never been honest or true. They are not going to get away with it. They get no pass from me.

They are great sinners and you should not try to excuse or minimize what they have done. It is criminal conduct that we are talking about. They have committed publishing fraud, and they refuse to admit it or repent. This is why they are in such a defensive mode. (It is only a matter of time before I go in there with a class action suit as well as with the States Attorney).

Do not underestimate the gravity of this situation or the massive embarrassment when this becomes public. The White Estate is guilty of pulling off one of the greatest frauds and con jobs of all time. Here is the greatest of all SDA scandals. It is the mother lode of scandal and corruption. The White Estate is an abomination and Ellen White does not support what they have done to her reputation and that of the Advent Movement.

Moreover, from a Christian perspective, what they have done is immoral, wicked, and evil. They have lied and deceived the church about Ellen White's true positions, interposing themselves between the Spirit and the Church, even changing the words and meaning of Ellen Whites writings as it suited them.

This is a big time sin and no one that follows Jesus can allow such a sham to continue in the church. All that follow truth must demand an end to this fraud, as well as the correction of the record.

Bill said: The White estate has circled the wagons and won't give an inch in its ultra conservative approach.

They know they are guilty. That is why they refuse to co-operate with anyone and seem hunkered down. So be it.

Then they will be attacked through the legal system as well as by the Adventist Community. Public opinion has to become so embarrassing that they surrender the point or suffer legal action.

I am telling you that what they have done is against the law. This is a real crime. It is Consumer Fraud. The White Estate is not above the law or the facts. And the Adventist Community needs to stop being so gullible and enabling of their corrupt leaders.

Bill said: But I wonder though whether Ellen White herself was ever able to come to grips with the idea that the pioneer view of Christian era date-setting was based upon a very questionable method of biblical interpretation.

Ellen White learned early on that doctrinal errors abounded. She herself was corrected about the Sabbath by Andrews. And 1888 proved that Smith and all the leaders could be wrong and that they were all wrong about the Two Covenants in Galatians. Further more, she changed her view on the Daily, even though she did not want to because it went against what she had been taught for so long. But she did it anyway because her son told her that this was correct.

So she knows all about error. Even saying that SDAs have much to learn and unlearn.

Bill said: She herself was absolutely convinced of the biblical accuracy of such dates as AD.1844 for the beginning of the most holy place ministry of Christ and the commencement of the three angel's messages of Revelation 14.

This is not true. She, like all Millerites thought that Jesus would come in 1843. And then no later than the Spring of 1844. And then on Oct 22, 1844. So there is error on top of error. Miller's view of the 2300 days were wrong to begin with, which is why Snow came up with the new date of Oct 22. Then Edson discovered that the sanctuary to be cleansed was not the earth. So there are errors all around the 2300 days. This is why such points are not pillars. Errors cannot be pillars.

She also said that God allowed these errors of time setting to fulfill his purposes. And what was his purpose? To change the churchs understanding about the Second Coming. To raise up the Advent Movement to prepare the church to get ready for the end of the world and the final events. Thus it was the PREACHING of the Second Advent that fullfilled the prophecy of the 1st Angels Message. Not the various calculations and theories that supported their correct view about this Gospel doctrine.

So there was error all over the place and there was never a time when the errors stopped. She knew this. But she also knew that there were pillars, doctrinal positions that could not be changed. These are what the Advent Movement must understand and embrace. Not the errors, but the truths must be captured.

Bill said: Dates such as AD.538-1798 as the fulfillment of the 42 months of Revelation, rise of the USA as fulfillment of Revelation's image to the beast, and 457BC.-34AD. As the fulfillment of Daniel 9 were, for her, bottom line absolutes which she was psychologically unable to relinquish.

Do not confuse the context of the Advent Movement with the doctrinal pillars that define it. These things you mention were not pillars, nor did she ever say otherwise.

Bill said: I think that her greatest fear was that if there were a compromise in the area of "date setting" that the Advent movement would lose all of the ground that it had gained in the recovery of vital doctrinal areas of reform.

Wrong! Ellen Whites great fear was that the doctrinal pillars from each of the Three Angels Messages would be ignored and lost. This is why she reacted so strongly against Kellogg. He was ignoring the pillars and the eschatological mission of the church, which was to go forward to the 4th Angels Message and prepare the last church for the time of trouble and the Second Coming. He had no passion for this prophecy that James and Ellen White spent their lives defending and developing.

The Three Angels Messages is how the SDA's define themselves. This can never change. Today, the SDA's have a very wrong idea about both church history and doctrine, thanks to their incompetent leaders who have indoctrinated millions into the mythical and legalistic cult of Ellen White. This fraud is called Traditional Adventism, and it must be exposed for what it is and repudiated by the Adventist Community. Why? Because it is not true. Ellen White does not support this false story of Adventist history and doctrine. She does not support TA.

Bill said; We conservative Adventists of today can look back upon the methods of interpretation employed by the pioneers of Adventism and greatly admire them for the amazingly advanced doctrinal reforms which they were able to accomplish in spite of their limited skills in the area of biblical apocalyptic interpretation.

It is amazing how much they got right. But it is also stunning how they fell away from the Gospel and become like the Judaizers. The attempts to Reform the church in 1888 failed, and the leaders have been hiding the details of this failed reform all these years so that they could teach a fabricated view. Is this what heaven expects out of the Advent Movement? Is this the best the SDA's can do?

The SDAs are a miniature paradigm of the 1st century Jews. They are Sabbatarian Gentiles that have embraced the Circumcision Party and made war against Paul and his Gospel. Like the Jews, they have made a real mess of things.

Bill said: Adventism has advanced the Protestant Reformation in spite of rather than because of its immaturity in the area of literal date setting for the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation.

The Advent Movement has changed the eschatological foundation for every Protestant church for the better. But the SDAs have failed to make any real headway. They are a now a dishonest cult that does not understand nor embrace the Protestant Gospel, much less their own church history or eschatology correctly.

Their view of eschatology makes no sense and has been embraced by very few as compared to the legions that embrace the Secret Rapture nonsense. The SDAs have failed to develop a credible, Gospel based apocalyptic, and thus no one pays any attention to them. However, the 4th Angels Message is meant to correct this situation and explains why this is the final message for the Advent Movement and the world.

In fact, this is what 1888 was all about for Ellen White. She saw that this Gospel debate could move the church forward to the 4th Angels Message. But the leaders rejected the Gospel, and thus the outcome sent the church in reverse, even as it destroyed the Battle Creek Empire.

Bill said: If only our brothers like Cliff Goldstein and other conservative authors and administrators in the SDA movement could come to grips with this fact great good could be accomplished in healing the wounds suffered by the events of the 1970's when opposition to the ministries of Bob Brinsmead and Walter Rae caused the loss of so many of our faithful ministers and members through disfellowshipment and disillusionment.

The SDAs must stop their double-talk repent for both 1888 and Glacier View. They must stop pretending that Ellen White supports TA or that the IJ was ever a pillar at all. Then there is a long list of doctrinal reforms that must also be instituted, including the repudiation of tithe and a new church organization that represents a Protestant and democratic paradigm instead of a RC one.

These wolves today are wedded to the status quo. They do not want Gospel Reform any more than did the Jews or the Papists. This is what happens when men receive so much power and control. They do not want to ever give it up. This is what sin is all about, it is the opposite of the Gospel order.

Bill said: The fact is that Adventism does not stand or fall on its interpretations of prophecy.

Every denomination stands or falls on how they view the Gospel. Here is where the SDAs fall flat, and so too with their eschatology that they have confused and ruined by their legalism and incompetence.

Only when the Three Angels Messages and the 7 pillars within are honestly and correctly embraced, can the Advent Movement go forward. This is what Ellen White has always said.

Bill said: The advances it has made in recovering the third use of the Law, defending the Genesis account of creation which has sent Darwinism reeling backward, the pre-advent judgment truth which devastates hyper-Calvinism,

The SDA have impressed very few with anything good. Nor is any understanding of the Genesis account salvific or part of the Gospel. And who says Darwin has lost?

Moreover, the SDA view of the PAJ is very wrong and false. The LM is the real PAJ of the church. The IJ is a fraud. It is not the Judgment pillar from Historic Adventism, nor did the original Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary have anything to do with a PAJ.

The LM is the PAJ! Study it from the Bible and see for yourself.

This is a stunning truth that few comprehend.

Bill said: the recovery of the true Sabbath of the bible which reveals the fallacy of Sunday keeping, the exposing of the errors of pretribulational Dispensationalism with its Campbellite antinomianism, declaring the Papacy to be the Man of Sin,

The SDAs have the wrong Sabbath. They have the right day but the wrong way. They have the OC Sabbath of the Pharisees, not the "working" Gospel Sabbath of Jesus. They also have the wrong view about Sunday laws etc. That is not how the time of trouble will begin.

Bill said: exposing the errors of Spiritualism and lie of the natural immortality of the soul, the true understanding of how God will totally destroy the unrepentant in hell and thus the exposing the lie of perpetual suffering of the lost in hell fire, and finally the teaching that Christians should take care of their bodies through obeying the laws of good health and hygiene have made Seventh-day Adventism the great movement that it is today despite all of its weaknesses.

While the SDAs are fully correct about the State of the dead, they have ruined the Health Message and failed in this area. This must also be corrected.

The Advent Movement needs to embrace the correct version of the Three Angels Messages, and repent for getting the 3rd Message, which is TA, so very wrong. If they do not do this, they cannot go forward to the 4th Angels Message. This is the Message that proceeds the end of the world. This is what the world needs, and this is what the SDA's also need. It is their Message. But they don't have a clue about any of this. Pity.

So they must first tell the truth and correct the record. Then they must move forward to develop the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18. This should be the goal. This is the point of the Adventist Movement. This is what Ellen White would want to take place. This is the only path that will save the Advent Movement.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

billdljr · 08-18-09 7:51 pm

The symbolic first, second, and third angels of Revelation 14 have been sounding their message since the ascension of our Lord when the hour of His judgment began.

The beast and his image have been persecuting the church, the 144,000 ever since the apostolic era.

The 1,260 days “forty two months” of Revelation is apocalyptic symbolism for the Christian era from the ascension to the second coming.

The “Beast” of Revelation 13 represents Imperial Rome and the lamb-like beast which makes an Image to the Beast is Holy Roman Empire which replaced Imperial Rome after her fall.

The warning messages to the seven churches apply to the entire Christian church throughout her earthly existence. <

The enthronement scene of chapters 4 through 5 represents the enthronement of our Lord immediately after His ascension.

The seals, the trumpets and the vials represent Christ’s Day of Atonement judgments upon the seven domains of the creation:

the Earth,

the Sea,

the Rivers and Fountains of water which water the Earth,

the Sky and its luminaries,

the Underworld of the Bottomless Pit where the seat of the Beast resides and where the forces of evil dwell,

the Great River which surrounds the Earth and which gives life to the Underworld and its demonic inhabitants,

the atmosphere or Firmament between the Sky and the Earth.

This is the basic symbolic outline of Revelation with its Apocalyptic cosmology as the setting for the great conflict between the Kingdom of God ruled by Christ and the Kingdom of Darkness ruled by Satan, the Dragon.

It is within this symbolic cosmology that John shows how throughout the Christian age the great struggle between light and darkness will rage. The ultimate outcome of victory for the Church is assured and the forces of the Dragon will be defeated and destroyed by the power of the heavenly armies which fight the battles for the Church.

To assert that the “Three Angel's” of Revelation 14 represent and are fulfilled by the “Advent Movement” from the middle of the 19th century to the present is a very narrow sectarianism to say the least. However, having said this every generation from the apostolic era till now has had its testing truths and battles with truth and error.

Every generation has had its “seal of God” and its “mark of the beast” to contend with. Every generation has had the everlasting gospel proclaimed and the announcement that the hour of Christ’s rule & judgment has begun therefore worship Him who made heaven and earth. Every generation has been called to “come out of Babylon my people”.

Best regards,

Bill Diehl

cadge · 08-18-09 10:46 pm

And the image to the beast is the USA?

Cadge

tom_norris · 08-19-09 9:12 am

Bill said: Tom, I realize that my offering does not quite agree with your view that the term "hour of his judgment is come" refers only to the executive judgment of the world at the second coming of our Lord.

Tom said: It is a fact of church history that “the hour of his judgment has come” was ONLY a reference to the Second Coming during both the 1st and 2nd Angels Messages. This did not change during the period of the 3rd Angels Message in the 19th century either.

However, in Takoma Park, the SDAs started playing games with the facts and thus they changed history and doctrine as they promoted teachings that were false and mythical—in the name of Ellen White. Thus, millions have been indoctrinated by the White Estate to think that the IJ is the Judgment pillar in the 1st Angels Message when this was NEVER the case. Ellen White never took this position.

EW would be stunned to see the teachings of Traditional Adventism, and even more stunned that the White Estate has used her name to endorse the OPPOSITE of what she really believed about the Gospel, hermeneutics, and eschatology.

Bill said: The writers of the New Testament believed that the proclamation of the everlasting gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue and people constituted the beginning of Christ's reign and kingdom. Christ is now set down upon His throne and He is now judging the nations and people of the world by virtue of His victory over sin and the kingdom of Satan.

Tom said: You are describing “realized eschatology.” However, the Advent Movement focused on “Consummated Eschatology,” which is the Second Coming.

Realized E. is true, but Consummated is far superior and the actual point of RE. The latter is greater than the former and thus the SDA’s were correct to go in this inevitable direction. At some point the end must come.

Bill said: The final second coming of Christ openly discloses the final verdict and destruction of all the kingdoms of this world who oppose Christ's rule and He delivers His elect bride, called the 144,000, the Israel of the New Covenant ratified by His blood.

Tom said: The Adventists were correctly focused on the Second Coming and Consummated Eschatology. This is what the NT teaches. This is especially so because in Millers day no one cared anything for CE. That was Miller’s great contribution to the church.

Bill said: So Tom, what I am proposing is that your view that the "judgment" referred to in Revelation 14 is rather incomplete and that it is not merely the second coming of Christ but also Christ's rule and Kingdom established upon His ascension into heaven when He is enthroned as King of Kings and Lord of Lords awaiting until He has made all of His enemies His footstool.

Tom said: The 3 Angels Messages is correctly focused on CONSUMATED eschatology. It is not about realized eschatology, even though that is a true and correct concept.

Leave the pillars alone; The Protestant Gospel and the Second Coming as the Day of Judgment are set in stone. They can never be changed, and it is a great error for the SDA’s to have taught that the IJ was the Judgment pillar in Rev 14. This was never true. Nor is it true today.

It is time for the SDA’s to once again focus on Consummated Eschatology, and to understand how the world will really come to an end in the 21st century. (And it will have zero to do with Sunday laws.)

Bill said: Of course the pioneer view that the so-called "investigative judgment" did not begin until October 22, 1844…

Tom said: Bill, you have obviously not paid very close attention to what we have been saying all these years.

There is not one Pioneer that ever taught the IJ started in 1844. There was not even an IJ until 1857. So why do you assume that these myths from the leaders are true?

You have been confused like all others by the fraud and double-talk of the White Estate. You have assumed their story is basically correct, because this is what we have all been indoctrinated to believe for generations, but it false. The myths of TA must be exposed and repudiated.

There is no such doctrine as the IJ in the year 1844. There is no such pillar as many SDA’s think. So you need to get up to speed on the facts of SDA history.

While I realize that most all think the IJ is a fundamental pillar, they only assume so because the corrupt church leaders have fooled them all these years. Even the critics have been duped into attacking myths as if they were true. But Ellen White does not support TA, which is founded on the myth that the IJ is the PAJ pillar of Rev 14.

The repetition of lies does become truth for those duped. But this false doctrine of the incompetent SDA’s is being exposed as a total myth. The facts are known and it is time to expose this great fraud that has ruined the Advent Movement.

Bill said: It is a very immature view but there is definitely great light in the view that the cases of all the world's peoples are being decided "now" and in the "present" based upon their response to the proclamation of the everlasting gospel…

Tom said: The entire world, even all of Laodicea, has been condemned in the PAJ of the LM. So forget this idea that all the cases are being decided. Not true. The Laodicea church has been judged guilty, wretched, blind, and naked. All cases will be stamped GUILTY unless there is correct and zealous repentance and reform.

Moreover, if the apostles did not preach about the IJ, or the PAJ, then that is the end of the matter. If the apostles did not teach that the 2300 days are important or salvific or that there was a pre Advent Judgment to worry about, then how dare anyone do it today?

The Second Coming in not an immature view, it is part of the Gospel and has been so since the 1st century. It is a better and more genuine view than Realized Eschatology.

Besides, there is no such doctrine as the IJ. Nor is there any PAJ in the way that the SDA’s teach. They have this point very wrong. How can there even be a pre-Advent Judgment for the church located in the OT book of Daniel? It is absurd to think such a thing.

However, there is a PAJ of the church; it is located in the NT book of Revelation. The Message to the Laodiceans is a judgment Message that precedes the Second Coming. THIS IS THE PAJ of the church. This is what needs to be preached from every pulpit of the land as Present Truth.

So Dan 8: 14 is not the PAJ. But Rev 3:14 is the real PAJ that comes straight out of the Heavenly Sanctuary to the last church through the Word. This is what must be understood and embraced, even as the IJ is thrown in the trash with disgust.

There is no such doctrine as the IJ. It is a fraud and a farce. One that Ellen White never endorsed as the fulfillment of any pillar or prophecy in the way that TA teaches.

Bill said: They thought that their message was one of amazing "new light" which they had "discovered" when in fact the Lord was calling them to merely "recover" the message of the ongoing nature of the Judgment Hour which actually began at our Lord's ascension.

Tom said: The Adventists did rediscover “new light”, which was the Second Coming. THIS WAS THE GREAT LIGHT that gave birth to the Advent Movement. Not anything to do with the PAJ.

While the 5th pillar, the Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary, helped them move forward, it did not contain anything about a PAJ. This was added later as the IJ. It has turned out to be wrong. But not the CHS.

Remember, in Miller’s day this Second Coming had gone extinct in favor of post millennialism. So the SDA’s get credit for doing the right thing and for changing the eschatological paradigm for the church. Their new light was the Second Coming. This is a great pillar that can never be removed.

Bill said: In this judgment hour, names are added to the book of Life and names are being blotted out. This is the work of Christ as our great high priest mediates His righteousness for all the repentant sinners of the world.

Tom said: Such activity is not a pre-Advent judgment message in the sense that the SDA’s have tried to say. When people embrace the Gospel, their names are entered into the book of life at that moment. There is no need to try and get into the details of what is going on in heaven. It is absurd.

The Gospel is plain and simple, it does not include many things that the SDA’s claim as truth.

Bill said: He is the Judge, King, and Priest for all who call upon Him. He judges in favor of His people and He judges in condemnation of all who rebel against His Law. Call this the "investigative judgment" if some like this term but it is altogether biblical.

Tom said: It is not correct. The LM is the pre-Advent Judgment of the church. It is as plain as day. The verdict is very bad as all are condemned. THIS is all the PAJ activity anyone needs to worry about. Let all beware the real PAJ, which is the LM. Our response will determine our destiny.

Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will 1spit you out of My mouth.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me bgold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

All SDA’s must forget this term about a PAJ, unless the LM is meant. The IJ, as the PAJ, has been a catastrophe of error. It has made war against the real Judgment, which takes place at the Second Coming and was the reason why the Advent Movement came into existence.

Heb. 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Bill said: I would encourage you to read Revelation in the light of what I have just offered and you will see that the text is revealing the enthronement and rule and judgments of our Lord as He is seated upon His throne pouring out His judgments upon the kingdom of Babylon and calling all who would obey the gospel to "come out of her."

Tom said: The genius of the Advent Movement is their focus on CONSUMATED eschatology. When the SDA’s shifted this focus away from that, they got bogged down in the IJ. Their focus was to pass an ongoing judgment in heaven. This led them away from their mission to prepare the church for the last day events.

It led them into legalism and false views about the Three Angels Messages. When Dr. Ford told the truth and tried to correct the situation, he was exiled. Thus Glacier View must be repudiated along with the IJ, and this obsession with judgments in heaven.

Today, the SDA church has no clue about how the world will end or how to preach the Gospel. Their views are comical and absurd. They may as well be post millennialists, and cultic fools, because they have nothing credible to say about the last day events or the Gospel. They are so far away from what the Apostles and Reformers teach that it is no wonder that the LM totally condemns them as wrong.

Why pretend otherwise? Why give them a pass? False doctrine in the church must be confronted and corrected. This is what Paul clearly teaches in the book of Galatians. And so too Ellen White, which is why she want to war with Uriah Smith over the Gospel in 1888.

Bill said: My suggestion was that the early Adventists were convinced that the "Three Angel's Messages" did not begin to sound until the mid-nineteenth century in the Millerite message.

Tom said: It is a fact of church history that no other denomination or movement, except for the Adventists, ever claimed Rev 14 as the fulfillment of prophecy. They stand alone on this point, and thus they win by default.

Of course every text in the Bible can have many applications, and there is also no doubt that they were very naive about many things. However, the Three Angels Messages is a credible apocalyptic that must be better understood. It is not to be diluted with myth and revisionism. The true pillars can never be removed or changed. This is what Ellen White is correctly saying. Too bad that the White Estate has no idea what she is talking about, nor do they care.

Bill said: As such because of their mistaken approach to "time" prophecy they thought that the "judgment," the day of atonement, the time of the end, and Christ's high priestly ministry in the most holy place did not begin until the year 1844.

Tom said: The Advent Movement was started to prepare the church for the Second Coming. While it was full of error, and still is today, the object is to move the paradigm forward in order to better understand how the world will end and what the church needs to do to prepare.

Bill said: Ellen White fully embraced this eschatology and the soteriology that went with it.

Tom said: Ellen White was a Millerite and embraced one error after another as they all struggled to understand this new focus on the Second Coming. She was far more open to change than were others, as her Sabbath debates with Andrews, the later 1888 debates proved. But when it came to removing the pillars, she always refused, as the Kellogg debate shows.

The problem today is that so few have any idea what the real pillars are. Not 1 in 100,000 SDA’s have any idea how to define the Three Angels Messages correctly. Thus the work of the White Estate has ruined the Advent Movement and betrayed the Pioneers. This must be corrected.

Bill said: But I really didn’t want to debate the issue as to who is to blame for the way Ellen White is portrayed to the church members today. That is why I said that there is enough blame to go around in every direction for the present situation.

Tom said: It is very clear who is to blame for the massive fraud in the White Estate. I can give you a long list of names of those that have been dishonest and incompetent, starting with Daniels and then moving on to Froom and Arthur White, and many more.

Moreover, it is also clear that unless this false story about Ellen White and TA is corrected, the SDA’s will be forever confused and wrong about everything.

So this massive fraud in the White Estate cannot be ignored any longer, much less indulged and enabled. Every SDA needs to demand that the White Estate be cleaned up and forced to tell the truth and repent for what they have done. The record must be corrected and Ellen White allowed to speak with out the dishonest filter of the White Estate.

Bill said: My intent was to discuss the actual text of Revelation 14:7 and show that the "hour of His judgment" did not merely refer to the second coming of our Lord as you contend but that the "judgment" began at His ascension and will continue until the appearing of the Lord at His second coming.

Tom said: Forget it! The Millerite Movement never viewed Rev 14: 7 as you suggest, and neither did the apostles. While realized eschatology is valid and true, this is not the text to try and teach it. This text is about the Second Coming and thus it will always be.

The SDA’s would be wise to spend their time studying the details about the Second Coming from the Word, because they have very immature and incorrect views of how this event will unfold, and what will take place. They have wasted far too much time on the myth of the IJ and not near enough on better understanding the Judgment Day when all the world we view Jesus on the his throne.

Matt. 24:29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Matt. 24:30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Matt. 24:31 “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL ATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Matt. 25:31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.

Matt. 25:32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

Matt. 25:33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

Matt. 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Bill said: The pioneer Adventists were correct in their understanding of a "pre-advent" judgment hour before the second coming. They were merely wrong in believing that it began in 1844. But I won't repeat all that I wrote in my previous post. The readers of this thread can read it again where it was posted.

Tom said: The SDA’s were NOT correct about any view of the PAJ. In fact, they never had a PAJ until 1857, which means it was too late to become a sanctuary pillar as they was already one called the CHS in place.

Today, they have gotten the PAJ wrong over and over. So they get little credit for causing so much confusion. There is no IJ. There is no sanctuary message. The real PAJ for the church is the LM.

Bill said: I would make the observation that trying to place all the blame for the present situation in the SDA movement upon the White Estate is like try to beat a dead horse to death.

Tom said: Unless the cancer of dishonesty and suppression in the White Estate is cut out and removed, the SDA’s will continue to self-destruct and die, as well they should. This massive fraud in the White Estate that covered up 1888, brought us Traditional Adventism, and then Glacier View, and now Pluralism, must be confronted, repudiated, and corrected.

The Adventist Community must understand the real Ellen White and the correct version of the Three Angels Messages, including the proper Gospel and the Judgment. However, this cannot happen so long as the church leaders refuse to tell the truth and correct the record in the White Estate.

The White Estate is a den of lies and misdirection. It is a cesspool of false doctrine, fabrication, and propaganda. If James or Ellen White were alive, heads would roll in the White Estate and the truth would come pouring out. So long as the White Estate refuses to repent, the SDA’s cannot go forward or understand much of anything.

Bill said: To reform the SDA movement we must move beyond the long angry finger pointing discourses and merely proclaim the true gospel which the apostles proclaimed:

Tom said: Wrong! The real PAJ demands that the SDA’s repent. But how can anyone repent if they don’t know what is wrong? Unless the errors are exposed, what is there to repent about?

So Jesus is calling the last church, meaning every church, to repent and reform. Such a call to reformation includes pointing the finger at those that are leading the church in the wrong direction.

There can be no reformation without the overturning of present doctrine and error. There can be no repentance unless there is clear exposure of the errors, then there can be correction and reform. Those, like the White Estate, that defend and promote false doctrine and historical myth must be exposed and condemned for all to see.

This is the beginning of Adventist Reform.

This is what Paul does in Galatians. He condemns the church leaders for teaching a false and legalistic Gospel, even as he demands that we follow his example in such important matters.

Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

If Peter and James gets condemned by Paul—in public-- for their false and dishonest theology, so too must Arthur White, Froom, and Jim Nix get fingered for their religious errors and fraud. Thus Paul would not give the White Estate a pass and neither can any SDA.

There must be a Gospel reformation within the Advent Movement. Errors must be exposed and corrected, even as those wolves that fight against the Gospel are condemned for all to see.

Thus the pattern of Gospel Reform, which started in the 1st century, and broke out again during the Reformation, must once again become manifest at the end of time.

So the SDA’s must face up to their many errors and sins and resolve their problems. They need to stop the double-talk and the excuses why the White Estate should be ignored and left alone.

It is a great mistake to ignore error or to let the White Estate continue on with their massive fraud about Ellen White and church history. Why would you give them such a pass?

Heaven is not so naive and neither am I. The White Estate is the center of a sinful and deliberate fraud about Ellen White and church doctrine. It is a den of wolves that have been fighting against the Gospel, and against the views of Ellen White for many years. This cannot be allowed to stand.

Did the Apostles give a pass to their religious leaders? Hardly. They defied them and publicly charged them with false doctrine and the murder of Christ. They pointed their fingers, in both private and public venues at the Priests and rulers who were guilty of murder as charged. Thus the apostles condemned their leaders for all to see. This is what the SDA’s must do with their leaders as well.

Look at the Reformers. Did they refuse to condemn the Papists? Hardly.

So I have no idea where you get this idea that the SDA’s are supposed to ignore their evil leaders and focus on preaching the Gospel.

Part of Gospel preaching is to condemn those that fight against it. Thus when the Apostles or Reformers preached the Gospel they did so in the context that their religious leaders were guilty of fighting against God. This is how Gospel Reform works. There are good guys and bad guys in the story and the point is to figure, which is which.

There is no such thing as a smooth Gospel. While it gives hope and Eternal Life with one hand, it condemns those that promote a false view of religion and fight against the Word on the other.

It is time for a Gospel Reformation to sweep away the evil SDA Hierarchy so that the Advent Movement can return to the original eschatology of the Three Angels Messages. Unless this happens, there will be no 4th Angels Message, which is the final message for both the Adventists and the world.

There is no mystery about what Jesus is saying to the last church. He is not speaking about the 2300 days or about any “sanctuary message.” No, he is demanding that the church accept his "pre-advent" judgment that determines that the Laodiceans have it all wrong and must zealously repent.

THIS is the message from the Heavenly Sanctuary to the SDA’s and then all others. Repent and embrace Paul’s Gospel, and prepare for the Judgment Day.

More than that, the church must once again sound the great prophetic alarm that “the hour of his Judgment has come” and that all must flee from Babylon or be destroyed.

But this time it is not practice. It for real. The events of Rev 18 are about to unfold. Babylon is the West, including the USA, and it will be brought to its knees by weapons of mass destruction. This is how the time of trouble starts. This is what Rev 18 shows.

But where are the SDA’s? They are looking backwards for Sunday laws. What happened to those that were supposed to be on the eschatological watchtowers? Where is their warning about what is to come?

Woe to the Advent Movement if they don’t stop making excuses and avoiding the real issues.

Woe to those that want to hold things back for their own narrow self-interest.

Woe to those that misunderstand the Gospel and the Three Angels Messages.

It is time for the Advent Movement is wake up and embrace genuine Gospel Reform within the paradigm of the Three Angels Messages. It is time for them to get honest and serious about why they exist.

It is time for Adventist Reform, which starts with the condemnation of the White Estate and the correction of the record within this very dishonest church institution.

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Last edited by tom_norris (03-27-10 5:50 pm)

tom_norris · 08-21-09 9:55 am

Bill said: Tom, Have you read the two original posts that I offered six months ago? I guess not.

Yes, I read them. They contain some good Protestant theology, much of it focused on Realized Eschatology. But nothing that I read changes anything that I am advocating. In fact, I am sorry to say that some things you advocate are downright wrong and very incorrect.

So, while I have read your material, you have obviously not read or processed what I am saying.

To prove the point, I will comment on the summery that you posted on this thread back in February. Then you will see that I read your material, and that there were some major errors that need to be corrected. I apologize for the delay in responding. It is impossible for me to answer and address all the many questions that keep pouring in about Adventist Reform.

Nonetheless, I hope you will take the time to try and process what I am saying, and either prove me wrong or change your position as it relates to the PAJ. We can’t both be correct.

Here goes:

Bill wrote: The apostles proclaimed a three-dimensional unfolding of the end and a three-dimensional judgment. When they wrote of the future judgment, they always had the judgment at the Parousia in view.

Tom said: I agree with this. As Miller discovered, the NT is full of information about the pre-millennial Second Coming as the Day of Judgment. It is a very well documented doctrine in the NT.

Bill wrote: If we today are going to proclaim a pre-advent judgment, we must either proclaim something not established by the words of the apostles or restore the apostolic gospel to its historical, legal and eschatological setting.

Tom replied: Since when was the church instructed to preach about the PAJ at all? Show me where the apostles made this part of the Gospel proclamation? I do not deny the logical necessity of a PAJ, but it is not what the SDA’s think, nor is located where they say.

The only PAJ that the last church is to proclaim is the LM. The point of the PAJ/LM is to waken the naked church and convict it of its great sin and blasphemy. Why? So that the church can understand its errors and repent, embracing the Gospel. Why? Because the Day of Judgment is approaching. All those that refuse to repent are doomed.

Perhaps you have not read what I have been saying for some time now about this point. Your attempt to link the PAJ with Dan 8:14 will not work no matter how you spin it. The Adventist Community must repudiate the IJ totally and completely. The Denomination must repent for Glacier View and apologize to Dr. Ford.

Here is a paper that was written about the PAJ, which I admit is new for SDA theology. (I just understood it within the last 10 years.)

Goldstein was unable to make a reply or comment. It was well above his pay grade. Hopefully you can do better. But if this new position is correct, it means that the PAJ from Dan 8:14 must be viewed as total error.

So it is time to have a battle between the supposed PAJ located in Dan 8: 14, and the real one, which is located in Rev 3:14. The latter will win any such debate, but you are free to try and prove me wrong. You will hardly be the first to learn the hard way that the IJ is a total and complete error.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1154462379

Bill wrote: The arguments sometimes used in the past to establish a pre-advent investigative judgment not only impose too much on the apocalyptic book of Daniel, but are without adequate New Testament confirmation.

Tom replied: Miller never promoted a PAJ. And neither did the SDA’s until 1857. This is when they made this great error. But even so, the IJ was not really developed until the 1870’s by Uriah Smith. And it was never debated until the late 20th century.

To make matters worse, the way that the modern SDA’s have taught the IJ has been incompetent, wrong, and very dishonest. For one thing, when the SDA’s did invent the PAJ, which was the IJ, they never said it was the Judgment pillar in Rev 14: 7 as all SDA’s have been incorrectly taught.

So we have to get the doctrinal development straight, and stop playing games with history and Ellen White.

This is why the White Estate must be cleaned up. They have misled everyone about how the Pioneers viewed the IJ as well as the Gospel and the very doctrinal pillars that define SDA theology. This must be corrected. TA, and then Glacier View were both shams that had no support from Ellen White, as the White Estate claimed.

The SDA’s have never gotten the PAJ correct. And you have offered no real correction to the problem, and in fact are trying to defend this great error.

The PAJ is the LM. Period!

The IJ is neither a pillar, nor the PAJ. It is an anti-Gospel fraud, whose champion was the great legalist Uriah Smith.

Bill wrote: What we preach about the pre-advent judgment must be supported by the plain words of the New Testament apostles and not just by recourse to questionable use of typologies, analogies and apocalyptic symbols.

Tom replied: Correct. Only the LM can be supported from scripture as the PAJ of the church. Nothing else will work.

Bill wrote: We do not wish to diminish the conviction of anyone that he lives in the hour of the judgment. The gospel can be appreciated only by one who feels himself confronted with the judgment of God.

Tom replies: It is our inevitable mortality that should convict all that our lives are short and temporary. And so too the fact that the Second Coming can take place at any time. Thus the preaching of the Gospel must always include the law and Second Coming as the Day of Judgment. There is no need to invent additional judgments or invent doctrines to understand with our sinful mortality and future fate.

Bill wrote: But instead of living by detailed and unprovable speculations about the hidden proceedings of heaven's court, we should know that justification by faith is the verdict of that judgment. And the earthly manifestation of that judgment is the test of the apostolic gospel.

Tom said: I agree. Those that have Eternal Life and follow the teachings of Jesus will think and act differently from the world.

Bill said: He who lays hold of the apostolic gospel has been judged and possesses eternal life. He can be sure of this if he only continues in the faith. If disciples from all nations are not to stumble, we must not go beyond the plain declaration of the Bible.

Tom said: I agree! But the Bible does not support the IJ, or a long list of additional errors like tithe, OC Sabbath keeping, abstinence, etc.

Bill wrote: We need to look at Daniel 7 and 8 in the light of the New Testament and to interpret these prophecies in the light of the apostolic affirmations.

Tom replies: While such study is great for theologians and church historians, there is no need for anyone to study Daniel to embrace the Gospel, obtain Eternal Life, or understand the doctrine of the Second Coming as the Day of Judgment.

It is a great mistake to think that people in the 21st century have to become OT scholars in order to understand the Gospel and be saved. This is absurd.

So we do NOT need to do anything with Dan as it relates to the proclamation of the Gospel or the PAJ in the 21st century. When the NT is better understood, people can spend more time in the OT, but until such time, there is no need for Christians to become obsessed with the OT prophecies. There was a time when this made sense in the 19th century, but no longer.

Adventism needs to be corrected and simplified, not made more complex, mystical, or legalistic. Until the SDA’s can understand how the genuine version of the Three Angels Messages is defined, they have no business trying to explain the PAJ. Once they get the pillars correct, the genuine PAJ becomes obvious. And it is not the IJ.

Bill said: The New Testament, for example, abounds in allusions to Daniel 7—the judgment and the Son of Man.

Tom Replies: The NT, including the book of Revelation, is full of references to the OT. This proves nothing, and gives no basis to say that the book of Dan is instructive for the church on the topic of the PAJ.

The real PAJ is not found in Daniel. The fact that the SDA’s said otherwise is beside the point; they are very wrong.

Bill said: The judgment scene of Daniel 7 must apply to events connected with both comings of Christ. Christs proclamation of the kingdom at hand, all judgment given to the Son, and all power in heaven and earth given to Him is a commentary on Daniel 7. The 1260 days, which end in judgment and Christs victory over the evil powers, found their inaugural fulfillment in Christs three and one-half year ministry, at the end of which came the judgment of the world. The cross was a picture of the end of the age—there was the dark day, the great earthquake, the love of many waxing cold. The resurrected Christ unsealed the Old Testament, including Daniel, to His disciples. This unsealing took place at the end of the 1260 days and the ushering in of that period called the last days.

Tom replies: The Gospel can be understood without anyone studying or understanding the 2300 days. Which is why you don’t see the apostles preaching this Jewish history to the Gentiles. Embracing Jewish Apocilipticism is not a pre-requisite for understanding or embracing the Gospel. At least not for the Gentiles.

Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

All SDA’s need to stop pretending that they must become like Jews by following this or that emphasis. The 2300 days and many other things, like the year-day principle, are not Present Truth. Do not confuse Jewish or church history with true doctrine for the church in the 21st century.

Bill said: But the marks of Christ are repeated in the history of the church. The 1260 days were reinterpreted by John the Revelator and applied to the history of the evangelical Christian church and the rise of the false prophet, the papacy. The parallels between these two movements of history are striking.

Tom Replies: The SDA’s need to follow the example of the apostolic church that defied their religious leaders and rebelled from them. Thus Gospel Reform in the 1st century is the model and guide for the Reformation as well as for the last days.

Moreover, we must look for the last day events in the book of Revelation. This is where you will find the PAJ. Not in Daniel. There is no PAJ for the church in the OT book of Daniel.

Bill said: If we could ask the apostles the meaning of Daniel 7 and 8, they would point to the events of their day.

Tom said: They would have said that Dan 8:14 was about Hanukkah. This is what all Jews say about this passage, even Jesus when he was here on earth took this position.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … #POST65340

So who are the SDA’s to come along and try to change the history of the Jews? Who do they think they are to change world history and even assert that wine in the Bible was only grape juice? They are arrogant and very foolish about many things.

If you asked the apostles today if there is a PAJ in Dan 8: 14 they would say no, even as they deny this absurd SDA doctrine about grape juice. Let all SDA’s stop making up doctrine and repent for such silly and cultic nonsense.

Bill said: The apostles interpreted the Old Testament for their day, and the Adventists of the nineteenth century reinterpreted it for their day.

Tom replied: Ha! While the Jewish apostles have doctrinal authority and wisdom to make such interpretations, the SDAs have NONE. Zero! They misunderstand many things, and no one should think otherwise.

There is no SDA apostle, even though many think Ellen White plays that role.

So never compare the apostles to the SDA’s, there is no such comparison.

Today, we live in the 21st century. The object is to correctly apply what the apostles teach to our day. It is not an easy thing to do, and the SDA’s are not even close to being correct about Gospel eschatology. They must first repent and understand the Three Angels Messages correctly as well as the PAJ. Then they must develop the 4th and final Advent Message of Rev 18.

Bill said: The recurring pattern of salvation history makes this possible. The prophecies fulfilled in the apostolic age are again to be fulfilled in our day.

Tom replied: We must be very careful about our understanding of how the world will end. This is not easy material to master, as the confused and self-destructing SDA’s have discovered. This is why the Adventists need careful and honest scholars like Dr. Ford, even as they need to change their organizational structure away from a corrupt hierarchical system into a Protestant form of church government.

Bill said: We must remember that all the law and prophets had to meet their fulfillment in Christ. Otherwise Jesus is not the Messiah. He fulfills the entire Old Testament. He is the end of history because God has achieved His goal of history and His goal for humanity in Christ.

Tom said: While Jesus is the end of history in a “realized” sense, the “end of the age” has not yet occurred and the NT makes this very clear. Thus Consummated Eschatology is still waiting to be fulfilled. Which is why Jesus teaches, “the end is not yet.” So God has not fully achieved his goal, and it is utter nonsense, especially for Adventists, to pretend otherwise.

Matt. 24:14 “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Matt. 13:47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;

Matt. 13:48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.

Matt. 13:49 “So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,

Matt. 13:50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt. 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Mark 13:7 “When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be frightened; those things must take place; but that is not yet the end.

Mark 13:13 “You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Bill said: There are a number of salutary features in traditional Adventism's preaching of the judgment:

Tom said: Wrong! The IJ is wrong on every level. It cannot be sanitized or fix up. It is the worse doctrine in the world. This doctrine was never a pillar as the Takoma Park apologists claimed, nor can it ever become one. It was a great error that has confused and destroyed the SDA’s.

Unless the IJ is fully repudiated, along with Glacier View, the SDA’s are doomed, and the Advent Movement must pass on to others. Apparently the SDA’s, who often act like the Jews, have determined that they do not want Eternal Life, nor are they capable of being honest about the Gospel or church history. They are repeating the same mistakes of the Jews.

Acts 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

Bill said: 1. Adventism's message of a final judgment according to works arose at a time when Protestantism had emptied the final judgment of much of its meaning. This is a biblical emphasis. It is a needed corrective to antinomianism.

Tom replied: The Moral law and the final Judgment have always been part of Protestant theology, including the third use of the law. But that in no way includes or justifies the IJ as the PAJ. That is not the Judgment that anyone should worry about, because it is mythical and unbiblical.

Bill said: 2. The Adventist concept of a pre-advent judgment implies that we only appear before the judgment in the Person of our Representative rather than in our own person. Thus, our cases are decided by the intercession of our Representative. This is a great gospel truth that we dare not relinquish.

Tom said: Great truths are not established on “implications” or assumptions about what is taking place in heaven. While Jesus mediates for sinners, this is not the IJ, nor the PAJ. The SDA doctrine about the IJ/PAJ being anchored in Dan 8:14 is dead wrong. There is no such Judgment. Repent.

Bill said: 3. Though embellished with some nineteenth-century Adventist apocalypticisms, the concept of the investigative judgment has served a very useful pedagogic function. It has led souls to sense their need of finding the One and Only Righteousness that can appear before God in judgment.

Tom said: The IJ is false. It has no value and has served only to lead the SDA’s into legalism and away from the genuine pillars that define Adventist theology. It makes war against the Gospel as well as the Second Coming.

It is the preaching of the law, Gospel, and Judgment, meaning the Second Coming, which leads people to Christ. Not anything about the IJ, which is a mythical and man made doctrine.

Which is why we see Paul using the Second Coming as the Judgment to make people sense their need of salvation. It was not, not, not, the IJ that made the Gentiles frightened, but the concept of law and the future Judgment Day, which is the Second Coming.

Acts 24:24 But some days later Felix arrived with Drusilla, his wife who was a Jewess, and sent for Paul and heard him speak about faith in Christ Jesus.

Acts 24:25 But as he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix became frightened and said, “Go away for the present, and when I find time I will summon you.”

There is no mention of the IJ, or the PAJ in this passage or any other in the NT. Rather, we will all stand before the Judgment throne of Christ, at the Second Coming. THIS is the true Judgment that should concern every sinner, both Jew and Gentile.

Rom. 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

2Cor. 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

1Cor. 4:5 Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.

2Pet. 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

2Pet. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

2Pet. 3:11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

2Pet. 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

Rev. 14:7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

Rom. 2:16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

The Judgment in these texts is not the IJ, but only the Second Coming. There are many more that could be cited.

Bill said; No one can know what the apostle Paul means by justification until he sees himself before the judgment.

Tom said: It is true that the law must condemn the conscience, even as the fear of a future Judgment drives home the point that we need the Gospel. But none of this has anything to do with the IJ as the PAJ.

Paul is only speaking of the Second Coming as the Judgment. So yes, we all need to think of what the Judgment Day will be like and take care what we believe and how we act. But no Christian should ever worry about how they will fare in the IJ, because there is no such doctrine. It is mythical and against the Gospel and the Second Coming. It is a fraud.

Bill said: Then he may learn what it means to be justified and to have the verdict of the eschatological judgment in the now by faith. If we see that we are now in Gods judgment hour, and if day by day we grasp by faith the verdict of the judgment in Gods free justification, what more can we have and what more do we need to know about the judgment?

Tom said: While the last church is living under the Judgment of God, it is not the IJ that they need to worry about. In fact, there is no reason for anyone to think that they have passed the real PAJ of the NT.

Why? Because the PAJ is the LM, which condemns all Christians. Thus all in Laodicea are judged guilty, sinful, and unsaved in the present PAJ. This means that the last church lives under the condemnation of Heaven right now. And unless they all repent of their many false doctrines, and Reform, they will remain under the condemnatory judgment of the PAJ and forfeit Eternal Life.

The IJ can play no role in eschatology, because it is not valid or true. Let all repent of the IJ, and embrace the true PAJ of the church, which is the LM. This is what will save the Advent Movement.

Bill said: If we faithfully proclaim everything the New Testament apostles proclaimed about the judgment, have we not done all that it is our duty to do?

Tom said: The SDA’s have made many errors about eschatology. They have not been faithful or honest about the Gospel or Prophecy, much less church history or anything else. There is no PAJ in Daniel, and there never was. Thus it is the duty of the SDA’s to humble themselves and repent for TA, which is what the real PAJ demands.

Bill said: Some of the traditional Adventist explanations of Daniel 8:14 have tended to be so clumsy that most have abandoned the attempt to explain this passage from the Bible. We must now take the sharper sword of the apostolic gospel.

Tom said: There is no IJ in Dan 8:14. There is no IJ anywhere. It is not a pillar in the Three Angels Messages and Ellen White never said otherwise. Thus the sword of the Spirit has destroyed the IJ and exposed it as an evil imposter. The SDA’s need to stop pretending that are better and smarter than all others, because they have turned out to be just as bad as the RCC or the Mormons. Which is why they are called to repentance by the real PAJ.

Bill said: You, Tom, seem to be so dismissive of those who address the issues with you that communication and dialogue is nearly impossible.

Tom said: Bill, I am very dismissive of anyone that tries to promote the IJ as the PAJ, or thinks it is a pillar from Historic Adventism. While I will indulge the confused and misguided, I have no interest in pandering to any that want to defend cultic myths and fiction.

Your attempts to rehabilitate the IJ, while giving it a well-meaning Protestant spin, is a worthless endeavor and a waste of time.

I repeat, there is no IJ or PAJ associated with Dan 8: 14. But there is a PAJ in Rev 3: 14. I suggest that you make this correct change in doctrine as soon as possible.

The Second Coming is the real Judgment that all should be prepared to withstand. Let all repent of the IJ and the many false doctrines that are associated with it.

It is time that the SDA’s stop their double-talk and deal with this issue head on. Unless the Adventist Community can address the real issues, and stop allowing their leaders to deceive them about Ellen White and church history, they are doomed.

It is time for the Adventist church to submit to the genuine PAJ, which is the LM, and REPENT.

Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Last edited by tom_norris (03-27-10 6:05 pm)

cadge · 08-21-09 8:40 pm

Tom, I'm really grateful for your explanation of Rev 3:14-19 as the pre-advent judgement or, I guess, assessment over the entire Christian realm.

I assume that the next judgement will entail the separation of the sheep from the goats in preparation for those that rise to meet Him at His appearing and those who are slain by the brightness of His coming. All that remains in order to get on with the eternal plans are then the final stage of judgement being the execution of all the wicked that attack the Holy City after the 1,000 year reign, right?

And also, I find it very interesting that you claim that the 2300 day interpretation of Daniel 8:14 is revelant as to being the scaffolding needed to launch the message of the second coming, parousia, and eventually the three angels messages and SDA church.

I find it interesting because you also acknowledge that Daniel 8:14 proves to be not what Traditional Adventism claims, but the fulfillment of the exploits of Antiochus Epiphenes and the victory of Judas Maccabees. Therefore, the prophecy that wasn't really, becomes the prophecy that was, sorta, but applied differently. Kinda like make due with whatcha got even if it don't fit or look so swell when it's done? Jury rigging, I think it's called.

And when they, the pioneers, got the Sabbath, they were doin it wrong. Then they thought they fixed it, but you say their still doing it wrong.

And also, they had the Gospel wrong. Then it was supposed to get fixed in 1888, but it's still broke.

And, to continue the wonders, they got the food wrong, including the wine too! Don't forget not to be taking any liquids with your meals. Does soup count?

So, the great disappointment wasn't just that Jesus didn't show up in 1843, 1844, or 1851, and that there was no cleansing of the Sanctuary or Investigative Judgement, but in reality, the Great Disappointment continues and the angel of Revelation 10 is atill waving the little book around and telling you to prophesy again because it still ain't right.

I can just picture my neighbors reaction when I try to explain all this to him when I share the SDA good news Gospel.

Maybe Bill Diehl has more to say than you think. Just before Jesus Crucifixion he prophesied:

Now is the judgement of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out... John 21:31

tom_norris · 08-23-09 1:02 pm

David said: Tom, I'm really grateful for your explanation of Rev 3:14-19 as the pre-advent judgement or, I guess, assessment over the entire Christian realm.

While the SDA’s were correct to understand that there must be a PAJ, their proposed solution in the late 1850’s was very wrong. There is a PAJ, but it is not WHAT they thought, nor WHERE they thought.

The LM, as the PAJ is a very special point that all Laodiceans need to understand and process. Why? Because it condemns every church.

While it applies to the SDA’s first, because they are experts in eschatology and will be the first to understand this point, it also applies to all other denominations and Christian cults as well, like the JW’s or the Mormons and even the RCC. But they don’t know about it yet any more than do the SDA’s.

Any church interested in eschatology must deal with this important concept and passage about the LM. THIS is the PAJ, and it underscores the fact that there can be no last day perfection as TA promotes. Why? Because the Laodiceans are the worst of all the 7 church eras. They are so arrogant and wrong that the LM says nothing good about them or their beliefs.

So much for them being the best church. They are the worst. There is nothing good said about them by Heaven.

While the SDA’s have a long list of things to repent for, so too do all others. None are exempt from the condemnation of the true PAJ. Thus, while all churches are going to have to REPENT of their false doctrines, starting with their error of Sunday Sabbath, the SDA’s must also repent for their Sabbatarian errors. They too must repent for embracing the OC Sabbath of the Pharisees, and misunderstanding the Gospel Sabbath as Jesus teaches in the NT.

While others must repent and repudiate the Secret Rapture, the SDA’s must also repent for their great error about the Judgment, and repudiate the IJ for all to see. So there is plenty of error to go around and condemn all that claim to follow Christ.

So the LM as the PAJ is a key point of eschatology that shakes up the Adventists first, and then all others. It is a paradigm shifting doctrine that will help the SDA’s recover the genuine version of the Three Angels Messages, as well as their mission to move forward to develop the 4th Angels Message.

Thus the PAJ HAS ALREADY taken place. It is not something that will come in the future. Thus all Laodiceans have been judged GUILTY of embracing legions of error and myth, including the IJ, and tithe and on and on.

All that is left for the SDA church to do is acknowledge that the LM is the PAJ and confess that the IJ, and many other things are wrong. In fact, this is the only real option offered to the church by Christ. There is no other.

Repent or be dammed!

David said: I assume that the next judgement will entail the separation of the sheep from the goats in preparation for those that rise to meet Him at His appearing and those who are slain by the brightness of His coming. All that remains in order to get on with the eternal plans are then the final stage of judgement being the execution of all the wicked that attack the Holy City after the 1,000 year reign, right?

The SDA’s have embraced so much confusion that no one should assume anything. Their views of the Time of Trouble are not correct and they have spent very little time trying to understand the Second Coming as the Day of Judgment.

The 2nd Coming IS the great Judgment Day for the Church and the world. How will it really play out? There has been far too little study and emphasis placed on the Eschaton by SDA’s and they need to get busy to better understand what the NT teaches about the last day events.

David said: I find it very interesting that you claim that the 2300 day interpretation of Daniel 8:14 is relevant as to being the scaffolding needed to launch the message of the second coming, parousia, and eventually the three angels messages and SDA church.

The modern SDA’s have acted as if the 2300 days and the PAJ in Dan 8: 14 is salvific. As if it were the Gospel. Many also feel that if the year/ day formula is rejected, or if the history of Hanukkah becomes the fulfillment of Dan 8:14, then Adventism is overthrown and rejected. But this is absurd.

The Advent Movement, as it matures, does not need many of its previous interpretations. In fact, the more knowledge we obtain, the more error we find. But the same is true for truth as well. Once the error is removed, the clearer the point and purpose of this unique, ecumenical paradigm becomes.

Thus, the modern SDA’s must only embrace the true doctrinal pillars of the Advent Movement, taking care not to make errors into doctrine, or turn truth into fiction. So far they have done a horrible job, which is why Heaven demands they repent.

David said: I find it interesting because you also acknowledge that Daniel 8:14 proves to be not what Traditional Adventism claims, but the fulfillment of the exploits of Antiochus Epiphanies and the victory of Judas Maccabees.

Historic Adventism, meaning the Millerites, did not have a PAJ in any form. So there was never any PAJ in the Three Angels Messages until the late 1850’s, when the concept and the name of the Investigative Judgment emerged from Battle Creek and was added on top of the 1844 doctrine about the Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary. Which was not the IJ, nor the PAJ.

Those that defend TA, and found Dr. Ford guilty of heresy at Glacier View, failed to understand that there was no PAJ in 1844 or even 1854. But yet, the TSDA’s have been insisting otherwise, even though their best scholars, meaning Dr. Ford, etc, has made it very clear that TA is wrong and impossible.

The modern SDA’s have not responded well to the truth that there NEVER was any concept of a PAJ in 1844. Rather than embrace the facts and repent, they refuse to admit they have made any mistake. Thus they have determined to believe a lie, even as Dr. Ford was exiled for telling the truth. No wonder the SDA’s are self-destructing in guilty confusion? They deserve it.

It is time for the Advent Movement to grow up, face the issues, and become honest. Today, there is no doubt about the primary fulfillment of Dan 8: 14. It is not what the SDA’s claim, nor what Glacier View endorsed. It is not the PAJ for the church and it never was.

Woe on the SDA’s if they continue to promote false doctrine. No wonder they have been condemned in the real PAJ? NO wonder Heaven calls them arrogant, blind, and naked, for so they are.

In fact, the SDA’s were so off base about Dan 8: 14 that some of their top scholars discovered it by accident. Here is a very interesting account of how Dr. Raymond Cottrell came to understood Dan 8:14. He did not learn the truth from SDA scholars, but from an accidental secular source.

"My first great shocker about the IJ, Daniel 8:14 and 1844 was when I read a Hallmark Hanukkah Card in a store that explained the entire story about how the FIRST Hanukkah, and how it lasted for 8 days because that's how long the oil lasted that they'd found in the Temple.”

“Once they had “cleansed” the Sanctuary and set it back up for proper worship. The Jews had even carried OUT every single stone that had been used in the alter because they couldn't take a chance of having a stone in the alter of God that would have such a history of holding up a pig at one time!”

“The Hallmark Card Company had gone to great lengths to tell this story correctly, and they did it!"

And there I was reading the story WELL OVER 2000 years later that fit a part of the puzzle that at one time had me greatly perplexed.”

“You don't need to go to what the Christians think Daniel 8:14 is talking about, but just go to the JEWS who it was written for and ask THEM what the meaning was all about and you'll see that it had nothing to do with 1844, but everything to do with 165 B.C. instead!”

Dr. Raymond Cottrell

http://www.truthorfables.com/Cottrell_I … ection.htm

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … #POST65339

Such a story gives new meaning to Hallmark Cards, as well as underscoring how uneducated and wrong the SDAs have been about so many things.

David said: Therefore, the prophecy that wasn't really, becomes the prophecy that was, sorta, but applied differently. Kinda like make due with whatcha got even if it don't fit or look so swell when it's done? Jury rigging, I think it's called.

Do not misunderstand. The Advent Movement is based on the doctrine of the Second Coming as the Day of Judgment, not on this idea that Dan 8: 14 was the PAJ, which came much later.

The timing of the 2nd Coming is another matter; it was based on the 2300 days. This was obviously an error, but the doctrine of the Second Coming was not wrong; this was the great truth that will stand forever.

Do not confuse the correct doctrine with the incorrect interpretation about the TIME of the Eschaton. These are two very different points. The Adventists got the first one correct, but not the second.

The 2nd Coming represents “the hour of his Judgment has come.” It is the #2 pillar in the 1st Angels Message, and it never had anything to do with a PAJ. Thus while Miller was wrong about his calculations of the 2300 days, he was not wrong to promote the Eschaton to a church that had lost this concept.

The PAJ error was original with the SDA’s. They have never had this correct and they are still way off base today. This is what must be corrected in order for the original pillars of the Adventist Apocalyptic to become manifest.

David said: And when they, the pioneers, got the Sabbath, they were doin it wrong. Then they thought they fixed it, but you say their still doing it wrong.

The SDA’s are not very original. They have made the same mistakes as the Jews. The Jews had the law and the Sabbath long before the SDA’s existed.

How well did they do with such doctrine?

Not very well. They too had the 7th day Sabbath, and were very careful about this doctrine. But Jesus came along and made it clear to them that they had the Sabbath all wrong. This is why they killed him.

The SDA’s have done the same thing for the same reason. They became legalists and turned the Sabbath into the same OC version that Jesus repudiates and reforms in the Gospels. They made the same error as the Jews.

So yes, it is clear to see that the SDA’s have the right day, but the wrong Sabbath. They are very much like the 1st century Jews. Which is why they don’t want to listen to the risen Christ in Rev 3: 14, who has found their Sabbath doctrine to be wretched and worthless, as well as most everything else they teach.

David said: And also, they had the Gospel wrong. Then it was supposed to get fixed in 1888, but it's still broke.

Again, the SDA’s are following the bad example of the Jews and some of the leading apostles. They have made the very same mistake that Peter and James made in the book of Galatians. Which is why the 1888 debates were all about this book, which gives us a window into the first Gospel debate in the church, even as it explains the downfall of the SDA’s.

The SDA’s are a miniature paradigm of 1st century Judaism. They are going over the same ground as the early apostolic church, even as they too embrace the Judaizers like Peter did, and turn their backs on the true Gospel.

But God routinely uses error for his purposes, and thus this prototypical Galatian debate was meant to forever establish the true Gospel in the church, on the record for all to see.

In fact, had it not been for this great Gospel debate between Paul and Peter, as featured in the book of Galatians, the Gentile church would not have been able to comprehend or understand the genuine Gospel. There would have been no Reformation. As it is, even with the book of Galatians, few can grasp the real Gospel of Paul, least of all the legalistic and Sabbatarian minded SDA’s.

Likewise, had it not been for the SDA’s two Gospel debates, 1888 and Glacier View, who would ever know the Gospel or the correct version of the Three Angels Messages? Without Dr. Waggoner and Ford, the SDA’s would only have known the Gospel of Peter, James, and Uriah Smith.

Now that the truth is emerging, the Adventist Community can understand the Gospel like never before, as well as the Judgment and the Sabbath, and all other things as well. In other words, great error becomes so absurd that eventually it gives way to correction and reform.

Thus the SDAs are poised for Reformation and Reform, even as their corrupt leaders still fight the Gospel and refuse to repent.

While we can never go back and change history, we can correct the record and develop the next Advent Message correctly. This is what the Advent Movement must do today. Why? Because they have so many errors and because the work of the Advent Movement is not complete.

Thus the SDAs must move forward to the next and last message, located in Rev 18. This 4th Angels Message is the place to make all the necessary corrections to SDA doctrine. This is the last opportunity for the Adventists to get things correct. But only if they repent first as directed by the PAJ.

David said: And, to continue the wonders, they got the food wrong, including the wine too! ;Don't forget not to be taking any liquids with your meals. Does soup count?

The SDA’s, while becoming legalistic, and joining the Temperance Movement of their day, did have some remarkable insights about food and health. Their health message was anchored by the understanding that proper nutrition and health comes from a proper diet. But they have lost this knowledge, even as the Laodicean world is suffering under an epidemic of diseases that have been brought on by improper and harmful eating.

To walk down the cereal isle of any grocery store is to realize that at one time the SDA’s changed the world when it comes to breakfast, but they have much more work to do in this area. Under the next message, this too will be corrected when the SDA’s decide to return to the fundamentals that define Adventism.

David said: So, the great disappointment wasn't just that Jesus didn't show up in 1843, 1844, or 1851, and that there was no cleansing of the Sanctuary or Investigative Judgement, but in reality, the Great Disappointment continues and the angel of Revelation 10 is still waving the little book around and telling you to prophesy again because it still ain't right.

Regardless of the outcome, the Advent Movement was an important and necessary step for the last church. It succeeded in re-calibrating the eschatological platform for every denomination and ending the fiction of post millennialism. It has also prepped the church to better understand how the last day events will unfold.

However, so long as we live on this earth, there is great discomfort and disappointment at many things, our mortality being the first and greatest of problems.

Rom. 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

Rom. 8:19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.

Rom. 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

Rom. 8:21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Rom. 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

Rom. 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

Rom. 8:24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

But the Gospel gives us hope, and so too the 2nd Coming as this is the Day when all the righteous dead and living are given Eternal Life. This is the Day when the Christians hope is realized and consummated. Until that time, we live in an evil paradigm of disappoint, suffering, and death.

Furthermore, SDA eschatology correctly teaches that the 2nd Coming takes place under the 4th Angels Message, not the 3rd. Thus, the Advent Movement is to prophecy again, this time in association with Rev 18. But they will never understand this last Message until they repent of TA and recapture the original pillars of the Three Angels Messages.

David said: I can just picture my neighbors reaction when I try to explain all this to him when I share the SDA good news Gospel.

Ha! Anyone today that tries to understand SDA history and theology is already very confused and frustrated.

So don’t blame me for adding to the confusion and division by telling you the facts. I am actually working to clear up the many myths and errors that abound so that everyone will know the truth of the matter.

In fact, I get dozens of e-mails and phone calls every week from people that are trying to figure out SDA theology. Most everyone admits to being very confused and perplexed about Ellen White and the IJ, etc, etc.

Today, few, if any, understand the facts because there is so much misinformation in the public domain that has come from the White Estate. They are the source for all this perplexity and false doctrine, and until this false source of propaganda is corrected, things will remain in a confused state.

How can people not be confused with so much fraud and suppression coming from the White Estate all these years? But propaganda can only masquerade as truth for so long. At some point, the facts rush in, and a paradigm shift occurs. This is what is in store for the SDA’s. The White Estate will be exposed as a source of evil and corruption, even as Ellen White is freed from those that have been her enemy all these years.

How can anyone not be confused about Adventism? After all, the Denomination has promoted so many different positions, and mutually exclusive positions over the years. Consequently, few have any confidence in the SDA leaders. Who now officially promote the confusion of Pluralism to go along with their numerous other myths and false doctrines. Such a doctrine enforces fragmentation and division, even as it keeps the ongoing schism from Glacier View alive.

Adventism today is full of chaos and corruption, and I think most people understand this point. In fact, MILLIONS have walked out the door because they are feed up with all the double-talk and error. But they have not gone very far. Where can they go?

Moreover, those that join, ignorant of the issues, will soon discover 1888 and Glacier View, thus opening great doubts, which will lead to further defections. And so the cycle goes. People are brought into the SDA church on false pretenses. But they soon discover the real issues and leave. This is all wrong and a great waste of time and emotion.

It is time to stop all this nonsense and tell the truth to the Adventist Community. TA is a fraud, and the White Estate is a den if iniquity and evil. The hierarchy is corrupt and self-serving, and the Review has been reduced to worthless Propaganda and diversion years ago. Even the Health Message has long ago been lost and forgotten. No wonder the PAJ has determined that the SDA’s are wretched and blind, heading for hell, not heaven as they think.

Many are stunned to find out that most of what they have been taught by the SDA’s about the Gospel, eschatology, and Ellen White is wrong and even fabricated. Everyone is shocked to hear how the White Estate has misrepresented Ellen White and church history all these years and many are thankful that Ellen White will come out of this a hero, even though the White Estate’s reputation will not survive.

Adventist Reform will rehabilitate Ellen White and save the genuine Three Angels Message, but it will condemn Arthur White and repudiate what the White Estate has taught about Ellen White, Church history, and Doctrine.

So tell your neighbor that a new story about the life and teachings of Ellen White has been found. And this new information will change the way that Adventism is to be understood.

Tell your neighbor that there is a very different, more accurate, and exciting way to understand Adventism then many have assumed. And tell him that you will be glad to fill him in on all these corrections as soon as the SDA’s get their act together, repent, and develop the 4th Angels Message.

David said: Maybe Bill Diehl has more to say than you think.

I think Bill D. is a well informed Adventist and Protestant. However, he has not been paying very close attention to the 12- Point Reform Agenda. He needs to deal with each point in a systematic and serious manner, and give up any pretensions of defending Dan 8: 14 as the PAJ.

Moreover, he needs to understand that the White Estate cannot be given a pass for their development of the fraud of Traditional Adventism. They must publically confess what they have done, even as they correct the record and zealously repent for suppressing and manipulating Ellen White’s writings all these years.

In conclusion, the LM is the PAJ. This understanding of eschatology is imperative for all that want to go forward and understand the next and final Adventist Message, which is the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18.

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Last edited by tom_norris (03-27-10 5:56 pm)

tom_norris · 09-12-09 2:38 pm

Bill said: Tom, Evangelical SDAs do not deny the need to proclaim the importance of consummated eschatology at all. However, the great weakness of traditional Adventism is that it is so dreadfully weak in the area of realized eschatology.

Tom said: First off, what is the definition of “Evangelical SDAs”? Who are these people? Who is their leader? What do they believe? Many of them have repudiated the Sabbath and Adventism, like Richard Fredricks and many others. These so called SDA Evangelicals were so far off base that Dr. Ford had to withdraw his support from this confused group because they were no longer being responsible about the Gospel or eschatology.

This anti-Sabbatarian group was quick to embrace Realized Eschatology even as they downplayed the Second Advent, and backed away from taking any specific position about how the world will end.

While they correctly mocked the IJ as the PAJ and rejected the legalism of the TSDA’s, they ended up falling into their own world of make believe religion that was as bad as the mess they were trying to escape.

Thus the SDA “Evangelicals” are just as confused and wrong as their polar opposites, the TSDAs. Which explains why they agree on certain things, like the doctrine of tithe, as well as a hierarchical system of church governance, with themselves firmly in control to micro manage, censor, and control things.

They are both very wrong about how to define and understand the Adventist Apocalyptic. They both have an incorrect view of the law and the Gospel as well as Prophecy, church history, and Ellen White.

So let’s all stop pretending that there is any group out there that has Present Truth. The TSDAs don’t have it, and neither do the so called Evangelical SDAs, much less the corrupt Hierarchy that promotes Pluralism, as well as censorship, falsehood, and propaganda to maintain control and keep themselves in power.

All SDAs, past or present, should be ashamed and embarrassed at the fallen, confused, and corrupt state of the Advent Movement. It is tragic, stupid, and unnecessary.

Today, 30 years after the turmoil of Glacier View, the SDA church is still mired in chaos and schism, unable to figure out their past or their future. There is no coherent or credible Advent Message being taught or promoted. This is why there must be a clear path out of this mess. This is why there must be specific and credible reform so that the Advent Movement can go forward to completion.

If Adventism is to survive, flourish, and do its duty, it needs new terms and interpretations that make sense for us today. It needs improved doctrines, but only to the extent that all reform must conform to the historic Fundamentals of the Three Angels Messages and Protestantism.

But this is where many stumble. Few understand what the real fundamentals are and what they are not. This area must be better understood, because what passes for historic and official SDA doctrine is often mythical, fabricated, and absurd. Thus, few understand the genuine doctrinal pillars that define and guide all Adventist theology.

Today, there is no SDA group or sub group that has credible theology today. Everyone is all over the place. Which is why Adventist Reform came into existence. The public domain was flooded with so much myth and manipulation from the White Estate that the true story, and the true pillars have been hidden from the Adventist Community; changed to mean something else that is false, cultic, and against the Gospel, which is the foundation for the entire Three Angels Messages.

There is a reason for so much confusion, and it starts with the rejection of the Gospel by those in the White Estate, and the manipulation and suppression of Ellen White by Arthur White. This is why this place must be cleaned up; so that the record can be corrected and the genuine pillars re-established.

Then there will be no need for this artificial division between the TSDAs and the ESDAs. Then there will be no debate about the Gospel or the Judgment, even as the Sabbath becomes better understood by all.

There is only one genuine, true, and historic version of the Gospel and Three Angels Messages, and this is the version that all must embrace, or they are not Adventist. There can be no Adventism without this special prophetic history that has set down some specific theological markers that can never be removed.

True Adventist Reform must be based on this Pioneer endorsed version of the Three Angels, not on the fabricated story from the White Estate and the GC that has turned out to be so manipulated and wrong.

So Bill, I say it is time to stop with the SDA myths and half-truths. No matter where they come from, or who they come from. The facts about church history and eschatology are known and thus there will be no double-talk, gossip, or fiction allowed in this post Glacier View discussion about how to Reform modern Adventism.

It is time for straight talk to the Adventist Community. Think of it as tough love, not personal animosity aimed at any individual. One day you might thank me.

Bill said: What I have offered for consideration is an attempt to place the emphasis where the apostles put it, on the finished work of Christ and His call for the world to repent and believe the good news of the kingdom of God.

Tom said: What you have offered is the repudiation of the Fundamentals that define and empower the Advent Movement. Moreover, trying to defend the PAJ from Daniel and turning your back on Consummated Eschatology is not what the apostle’s support, so you need to stop pretending and get honest about the Gospel Story.

You have not honored the teaching of the apostles or the Pioneers by subordinating the Second Coming to Realized Eschatology and dismissing the Adventist Apocalyptic as not credible, prophetic, or instructive. This is a great mistake.

Many have allowed the errors of TA to influence them away from the 3As. But this is a great mistake. TA never understood the 3 As correctly and this is what must be corrected today. It is TA, and their false view of the Adventist Apocalyptic that must be discarded, not the genuine version.

Don’t misunderstand, it is your right to believe and teach whatever you want, but your view of how to Reform Adventism is wrong and will not work. I suggest that you study the issues more closely and understand that correct REFORM for SDAs starts with the 1st Angels Message and how to define the Judgment and the PAJ correctly.

I stand with Dr. Ford, Ellen White and all the Adventist Pioneers on this point. Which means that I repudiate the White Estates false version, which teaches that the IJ, and the PAJ is located in Rev 14: 7. All SDAs are going to have to repent about this impossible point.

So Bill, I have replied to your comments and pointed out your errors in previous posts on this thread. You have failed to answer my points, much less sustain your view and overturn the model for Adventist Reform. In fact, you glossed over the very points that prove you wrong.

Why is that?

Then you try to portray me as being rude and unchristian for not embracing your views and demanding that you deal with the issues? Such games will no longer work. Sorry. Those that want to discuss Adventism need to stop running from the points they don’t like.

Understand that you have not only refuted the major point of this thread, even though you have recklessly denied the first point of Adventist Reform. Which would make you a hero to Goldstein and the TSDAs if you could prevail. But you cannot because you are wrong.

Pay attention: There can be no PAJ of the church in the book of Daniel. Period!

Consequently, your rants about Realized Eschatology have fallen flat and are a waste of time. Understand that what you are really doing is repudiating Miller’s great Judgment Hour Message, as well as the corrections made by Dr. Ford about the understanding of Dan 8: 14.

Not only are you wrong, but you are not being responsive to the points under discussion, even as you repeatedly evade the questions, ignore the issues, and attack Dr. Ford and Adventist Reform.

If you continue to evade the issues, this discussion is not going to go smooth for you. You will be confronted and asked to stay on point and to deal with the issues minus the double-talk and evasion, which you have been doing on this thread. These are the rules. If they are too hard, then go somewhere else and waste their time in useless babble.

For example, I am articulating a new way to view the PAJ, but you ignore it and start promoting another point not under discussion. I didn’t let Goldstein get away with these diversions, so why do you get a pass to doubletalk and avoid the issues? You don’t.

The discussion about Adventist Reform is serious, blunt, and focused. It is not about Realized Eschatology, but about Consummated Eschatology and the history and doctrinal development of the Advent Movement.

It is also about the impossibility of Dan 8: 14 being the PAJ of the church.

It is about recovering the original eschatology of the Three Angels for the Adventist Community, and repudiating the false version that was invented by the Takoma Park apologists to confuse and split the church.

To make matters worse, you want to give the White Estate a pass, even as you are willing to embrace this great error about some type of PAJ being located in Dan 8: 14. As if Glacier View never took place and Dr. Ford and Raymond Cottrell are wrong about the meaning and history of this passage in Daniel. As if the SDAs understand Judaism better than the Jews?

Sorry, my friend. You must address the issues on the table, not replace them with diversions about other points. This is how we discuss Adventist Reform.

I suggest that you have a private discussion with Clifford Goldstein, because he has a lot of experience trying to enter into this discussion, for which he was ill prepared. He too refused to deal with the very same issues about the location and definition of the PAJ.

He too denied the history of Hanukkah in favor of cultic SDA myth, and he too got upset and embarrassed because he was unable to answer the questions about the PAJ, of which he claimed to be an expert.

The old ATomorrow site is full of Clifford Goldstein running from Tom Norris. In fact, at one point, Goldstein asked me to stop bringing up so many points about Adventist Reform. Why? Because he could not address or answer any of them, and thus his refusal to deal with the issues made him look foolish and dishonest.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … #POST65489

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … #POST65935

Today, Goldstein has learned that his double-talking ways will not work with Tom Norris. He has wisely fled from any public discussion about 1844 and the IJ with either Tom Norris or Dr. Ford. He was unable to refute, or comment on the paper I wrote about the PAJ, and so too did you. He refused to debate Dr. Ford, and he will not come online here and answer my specific questions about the PAJ and Dan 8:14. Just like you.

In fact, he refused to have an online discussion about his book, which featured the IJ and 1844! Can you imagine an author and an apologist too frightened and ashamed to discuss their own material in public? Who ever heard of an author running from the discussion of his or her own books? The SDAs have lost their minds and it is time for some sanity to return to this confused group.

Such behavior underscores the limited nature of cultic, SDA propaganda. While it is easy to publish propaganda, it is much harder to defend such garbage in public. So now the SDAs have learned to master the art of stonewalling and diversion. This is how they deal with all issues now.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1013659183

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1166507859

For example, there is a TSDA pastor on this site that also refuses to deal honestly with the issues. Thus you will see Pastor Don Sands discuss things only to a certain point; then he will back away claiming that we are not in court, and that he does not have to answer any point that will prove him wrong.

When I try to keep the TSDAs on topic and on point, they often refuse because they know that they will lose the debate, so they make up reasons why they can’t follow things to their logical conclusion and why they don’t have to answer the hard questions.

So when I say to Pastor Don: “Just answer the questions and try to stay on point.” He will reply with an excuse like:

“Tom, I am not in court of law with you. We are simply presenting understandings. I have chosen not to give in to your demands for a "yes" or "no" answer.”

http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/message … l#POST5482

Bill, you are not a TSDA, and thus I had hoped you would be more honest, rational, and forthright about the issues. Perhaps I was wrong? I hope not. But you too need to address the hard questions and move beyond the diversions and double-talk.

Bill said: So few SDAs have a joyful happy relationship with Christ because they seldom hear the good news of justification faith in the finished work of Christ and thus have not real assurance of their acceptance with God on the basis of the imputed righteousness of Christ.

Tom said: The SDAs have never been fully correct about the Law or the Gospel. In fact, this is the reason why their Battle Creek Empire collapsed 14 years after 1888.

Failing to learn the importance of the Gospel, the 20th century leaders repeated the same errors of their forefathers, and the church experienced another failed Gospel debate, which led to another great schism after Glacier View.

So here we are, 30 years after Glacier View. There is no Gospel Reform or eschatological focus. There is no prophetic Message or reason why the SDAs exist.

The SDAs stubbornly refuse to repent for 1888 and Glacier View. They refuse to address the corruption and fraud in the White Estate, much less correct the record. Although the White Estate is the root cause for so much legalism and misinformation about SDA history and theology, the leaders refuse to tell the truth about Ellen White and her real views to the church. But you seem fine with this. Why?

In short, the SDAs are divided and self-destructing because they refuse to be honest and face up to the real issues. Even those, like you Bill, that claim to be “Evangelical” are full of double-talk and diversion. They routinely fail to address the real issues, and have no idea how to fix the problems.

Today, Adventism is an embarrassment and a scandal. How can any SDA be “happy” or feel that their church has honest or credible theology? How can anyone think that the SDA church is the place to find wisdom, truth, or Eternal Life? They don’t even have a Health Message any more. Why do they even exist?

The SDAs will NEVER understand the Gospel so long as they claim there is a PAJ in Daniel. This great error ruins the Gospel and turns it into legalistic myth and cultic confusion. Which is why the Adventists must correctly understand the PAJ, and repudiate this evil counterfeit that has taken them way off message.

So Bill, you are part of the problem! Why? Because you deny Jewish history and pretend that Hanukkah is not the primary fulfillment of Dan 8: 14. You have also attached an impossible PAJ to the Gospel Story when there is no such hermeneutical connection.

Why is there no PAJ for the church in the book of Daniel? For one simple reason, Daniel has no authority over the church. He is not an apostle, nor a Heavenly Judge, nor is it possible that he was given any kind of PAJ for the church. He didn’t even know about the Church, much less that he was supposed to give it a future analysis to determine its status.

This point alone stops all discussion about the PAJ being in Daniel. It is not possible for the Church to be judged by any Old Testament Prophet. It is an absurd proposition for any that follow the Protestant Hermeneutic. The OT does not pass Judgment on the Church. There is no PAJ in Daniel. Period.

You and Goldstein must both acknowledge this fact and repent for ever teaching that Dan 8: 14 is the PAJ of the church.

In fact, all SDAs must REPENT of this false doctrine that claims the PAJ is found in Daniel, and that it is the Judgment Pillar in Rev 14: 7. This is not true, nor was it ever true. Neither did Ellen White endorse such confusion.

So Bill, stop the double talk and the diversions about Realized Eschatology, and let’s have a battle of the PAJ’s. Your view from Dan 8 cannot be defended, while mine from Rev 2 & 3, will prove to be the genuine doctrine.

Either prove my point wrong or admit that you are wrong. It is one or the other. Those that think there is a PAJ in the OT, have no right to call themselves Protestant or Adventist. They are not reformers but confusers, who don’t know what they are talking about.

Bill said: They are continually hearing about the so-called coming Time of Trouble when they will have to supposedly have to stand without a mediator because they think that Christ's merits will no longer be available to them by imputation.

Tom said: Today, few SDAs seem to care about the Time of Trouble. Even though it is much closer than it ever was. Perhaps this is because they have no rational or biblical view of how the world will end. And when you do hear such things, it is from those promoting Sunday laws and perfection. Both of which have nothing to do with the end of the world.

It is time for a new, more realistic view of Rev 18 and how the world will end. But where are the SDAs? Their heads are stuck in the OC, even as they think with a 19th century mindset.

There will be a great time of trouble and it is madness to pretend otherwise. Too bad that the Adventists are asleep. They have no idea what is coming or how close the world is to utter destruction. They have no workable or Gospel based eschatology and thus they are totally unprepared and unconcerned.

Bill said: They think that they will have to reach a condition of sinless perfection and reflect the image of Jesus full at that time or they won't be saved. If one should believe this terrible error is it any wonder that there is no joyful rest in the finished work of Christ for those who have been duped by this false eschatology and soteriology?

Tom said: We agree that the false Gospel of the TSDAs is worthless. But that is no reason to abandon Gospel Eschatology. We know there will never be a time when the believer is without Christ’s imputed righteousness, but that does not mean there will be no Time of Trouble to understand or prepare for.

The correct Gospel calls for correct eschatology. We want both. The Advent Movement needs to focus on its mission to prepare the church for the Time of Trouble and the Day of Judgment. And they need to hurry. The end of the world is not going to wait for them.

Bill said: Having read your many posts in the past I would have to say that your outrageous personal attacks upon those who dialogue with you certainly leaves one wondering about your lack of courteousness and rational discussion of the nature of the Christian faith and doctrine.

Tom said: Ha! You have obviously not read enough of my posts, because if you had, you would understand that this public discussion is not personal or irrational. Those that think otherwise do so because they have been on the losing side of the argument. Which is where you are right now.

Moreover, I challenge you to bring me any post where I have been rude or unchristian to anyone. These discussions remain on line for all to see. If anyone was treated bluntly or rebuked for their views, it is done within the proper protocols of the NT. If you can find any instance where this is not true, I will be the first to apologize.

The old ATomorrow site is still up and all my posts can be looked up and examined, and so too here on the new ATomorrow, and at the All Experts site. So have at it. But I suggest that you deal with the issues and stop looking for diversions. This will prove more fruitful.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … opics.html

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … _70484.htm

Notwithstanding your complaints, please pay attention: there is no PAJ in Dan 8:14. Nor did Ellen White ever teach that the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message was the IJ as all modern SDAs have been indoctrinated.

If you continue to avoid the issues, then you too will be embarrassed like Goldstein who tried the same tricks of dodging and double-talking. He too complained that Tom Norris was being too hard of a debater. This is what the losers often say, but this is just sour grapes from those that have been unable to defend their false and confused views.

I had hoped you would be more mature and informed about the issues?

Bill said: If you will read my past posts regarding what I propose to be the great strengths of Seventh-day Adventism you will see that I am one of its staunches defenders of the movement in general.

Tom said: Glad to hear that you are not one of those that want to destroy the Advent Movement. But yet, you don’t seem very concerned about Consummated Eschatology? You don’t seem to view the Three Angels Messages as fulfilled prophecy, nor do I see you moving forward to develop the 4th Angles Message, all of which is basic SDA theology.

How can one support the Advent Movement and yet have a false view, or no view, of the Three Angels Messages? It is not possible.

To be an Adventist is to embrace the eschatological pillars from each of the Three Angels Messages. The Protestant Gospel and the Judgment, meaning the Second Coming, are the first two pillars. There is no PAJ involved. But yet most all SDAs think otherwise, thanks to their incompetent leaders. And so too do you. This error must be corrected. You are wrong and thus you need to repent.

All SDAs, including you and Goldstein, and Pastor Don, must repent of this false idea that there is a PAJ in Dan 8 and that the IJ is located in Rev 14: 7. This was never true at any time. It is pure myth and false doctrine from the Takoma Park leaders. It has no support from Ellen White or anyone except the incompetent and dishonest TSDAs.

So admit you are wrong and repent for ever thinking that there is a PAJ of the church in Daniel. All SDAs must repent for ever believing this silly error, even as they must understand that their leaders have led them into cultic delusion and betrayed the Founders.

Bill said: I have tried to point out those areas in which traditional historical Adventism needs to become more evangelical and New Testament in its emphasis of the finished work of Christ.

Tom said: It is one thing to correct some errors. It is another to develop a corrective plan that will save the self-destructing Advent Movement and move it forward in unity and purpose to the 4th Angels Message.

Bill, no offence, but your plan contains some serious errors, and thus it will not work.

First off, there is no PAJ in Dan 8: 14. None. If you can’t get over this point, there is no purpose in going forward with any more discussion. This is the gateway issue that leads to correct, dramatic, and functional Adventist Reform. This was the point of Glacier View, even as this is the point that overturns TA and exposes it as a farce.

I suggest that you read and process the 12- Point Reform Agenda. This document correctly reflects the areas that need reform. It starts out addressing the IJ, even as #9 makes the necessary correction about the PAJ.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1222173098

Bill said: Adventism's great weakness is its overemphasis of the Second Coming of Christ to the under emphasis of justification by grace alone through faith alone in the sinless life and atoning death of Christ alone.

Tom said: The great weakness of Seventh-day Adventism is their failure to understand, embrace, and promote the Gospel and the judgment correctly. This great error is the root cause for all their problems in both the 19th and 20th centuries.

Their second great failure was to develop a hierarchy that has manipulated and misrepresented Ellen White’s views about theology. This failure to be honest with church history and Ellen White’s writings is an abomination that must be addressed and corrected.

Another great error of the SDAs is that they have failed to understand that they have already been condemned by the real PAJ, which is the LM. Thus we can read the LM and see how Heaven has judged their strengths and weaknesses.

Too bad that there is nothing good said about them, as their failure has been total, and thus they are viewed as naked and blind, doomed unless they repent. Their great weakness is their dishonest, blind, and naked condition, of which they are UNAWARE and satisfied.

So we don’t have to guess how the deluded SDAs have fared in the great PAJ of the church, we have it in writing, for those that can see. They FAIL.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

This not Daniel judging the church prior to the Eschaton, but Jesus the Righteouss Judge. He is trying to save the church and convince it to repent and embrace the Gospel. THIS is the only PAJ of the church that the SDAs had better embrace. Thus they need to repent of the false view from Daniel 8: 14 and embrace the true PAJ in Revelation. This is what you also need to do Bill.

Bill said: Frankly I find your replies to my posts to be personally insulting and anyone reading your replies would begin to question your lack of rational Christian spirit in your dialogues.

Tom said: Ha! Get over yourself my friend. You act like you are too righteousness and educated for criticism. But none of us are without error. I make no such claim, and thus I am constantly learning. So I admit that I could be wrong about this or that point, but you have to prove it first. This you have not done, and neither has Goldstein or anyone else.

I know you are wrong about the PAJ, and I have proven it and will continue to do so for all to see. I can back up my views about the PAJ and many other points, but you cannot. Your position cannot be sustained, and thus you need to repent and embrace the real PAJ, and then move on from there to correct more errors.

Sorry to be the one to tell you. Why not take such instruction like a man and let it improve your theology. One day you will thank me for dragging both you and Goldstein out into deeper water. One can only play in the shallows for so long.

Those with the best evidence should win the argument. Not those that double-talk and refuse to address the issues. Which is what you have been doing on this thread ever since you came on. You have yet to deal with the issues that I have raised, and if pointing this out is viewed as rude, then so be it. I am guilty, even as I have no plans to stop being so direct.

I am not having a discussion for the fun of it. Nor am I looking for ways to stoke my ego as so many Pastors do. The point is to cut through the propaganda and endless nonsense a get down to fixing the problems. But this can only be done if the real issues are honestly addressed.

Bill said: But getting back to the issues at hand for those who read this forum, here is my summary of the strengths and weakness of traditional historic Adventism.

Tom said: Once again you misunderstand what issues are being discussed. This thread is about the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message; you need to stick to this topic and address the points that I have raised in response to your opposing and confused views.

THIS is the “issue at hand.”

So pay attention Bill; You need to address the issues on this thread not get off the topic and start summarizing the good and bad of Adventism. Until we get the PAJ cleared up and understood correctly, it is impossible to judge true Adventism from the worthless variety.

Bill said: I offer these suggestions without malice or condemnation but rather out of a sincere wish to see the SDA movement make the impact upon the world that our Lord would have it make.

Tom said: Good for you to want to see Adventism reformed. So do I. But there can be no such reform until the issue of the PAJ is properly resolved and the real pillars of the Advent Faith are manifest. This is why the PAJ must be correctly understood and identified in scripture, as well as in church history. You have failed to do this on either level.

Until the SDAs repent of the IJ and any form of a PAJ in Daniel, they will continue to self-destruct and make no sense to anyone. The Three Angels Messages will remain an enigma until this is correctly resolved.

Bill said: If the gospel of justification by faith alone had been embraced whole-heartedly in 1888 and then in the 1970's, the truth about Ellen G. White's borrowings and doctrinal changes and the truth about 1844 would have had no real damaging impact upon the viability of the SDA movement. The good news about the imputed righteousness of Christ would have carried the day even unto the Last Day.

Tom replied: If the Gospel had been embraced in 1888, the 19th century church would have realized that they held to a number of errors that must be corrected. Such as the IJ being the PAJ, the law in Galatians, the OC Sabbath, tithe, etc.. But they rejected the Gospel, and Ellen White in the process.

This great error prevented them from understanding and developing the 4th Angels Message, which is the point of the Three Angels Messages, which culminates in the Loud Cry of Rev 18.

Thus, the failed 1888 debates destroyed the Battle Creek Empire and set the Advent Movement back at least 150 years. The church has still not understood or recovered from this debacle, which is why they went on to repeat it again at Glacier View.

Today, Paul’s Gospel is known to many in the Adventist Community, thanks to Dr. Ford, but even so, there is no prophetic Message about the end of the world coming from the SDAs. Nor is there any Present Truth or credible eschatology. This must be corrected.

Bill said: As it is today, the church members are shocked as they are beginning to understand that the following Adventist Distinctives are not actually taught in the Bible:

Tom said: This is true. SDAs are indeed shocked as they find out how dishonest and manipulating their corrupt leaders have been. People are stunned to hear that the White Estate has been hiding thousands of documents and misrepresenting Ellen White’s views all these years. Many want to do something about it, but many also want to look the other way. This is your position and that of the TSDAs. I find it pitiful and disgusting.

It is not my view, nor can it be the view of anyone that claims to follow truth and the teachings of the NT. The White Estate needs to have a court appointed trustee come in clean up this den of propaganda and misinformation, because it is obvious that the can’t do it. Here is where the church needs Reform most.

Bill notes these points of error by SDAs:

1.Literal foot washing before observing the Lord's Supper.

Tom said: You are correct. The early church revolved around the practice of the Eucharist, with real wine, not foot washing or the drinking of grape juice.

Bill said: 2.Mandatory tithe paying as a test of fellowship and salvation.

Tom said: Good for you! There is no such OC doctrine as tithe paying in the church, nor can there ever be such a practice. The SDAs are very foolish, dishonest, and stupid to try and pretend that the Early church paid tithe. All SDAs must repent of this false, anti-Gospel doctrine that funds the heresy and corruption of Traditional Adventism.

The NT is clear on this point; the apostolic church NEVER promoted, practiced, or collected tithe. They “shared” not tithed. No SDA can defend this false doctrine, least of all those that get paid from the fraud of tithe. Thus every SDA Pastor and church worker is condemned for promoting this self-serving and dishonest doctrine that has no basis in the NT.

No wonder the SDAs are totally and fully condemned in the real PAJ of the church? They have most everything wrong. Which is why the LM has no exclusions for SDAs.

For SDAs the correction of this false doctrine also means church re-organization and the dismantling of their corrupt, incompetent hierarchy. The entire SDA church structure is based on the fraud of OC Tithing. This great error cannot stand in the reformed Adventist church. The Gospel does not allow such a hierarchical church structure as the SDAs and the RCC have embraced. The present church structure is an abomination to heaven and earth, and no one should pay tithe or support this anti-Gospel farce.

This is one reason why the leaders hate Adventist Reform, because it takes away their power and control, exposing them as wolves.

Bill said: 3. The investigative judgment beginning in AD.1844.

Tom said: The SDAs are more wrong than many understand about the IJ. Not only is it an error to claim that the IJ started in 1844, it is an error to think that this is what Ellen White and the Pioneers taught. IT IS NOT WHAT THEY TAUGHT.

There was no IJ in existence in 1844 or 1854, nor was there a PAJ until 1857. This fact overturns what all modern SDAs have been indoctrinated to believe, and underscores how dishonest and incompetent the White Estate has been all these years. It also makes a fool out of Goldstein and shows that his book about 1844 is a work of historical fraud and fabrication.

It is an error to claim that the IJ is the Judgment pillar in the 1st Angels Message. While this is a fundamental point of TA, one that is supposedly endorsed by Ellen White, and made official at Glacier View, she never said any such thing in her entire life, and neither did any other Pioneer.

The White Estate has been misleading everyone about how the Pioneers viewed the IJ and how they defined the Judgment pillar in Rev 14: 7. They have failed to represent Ellen White honestly or accurately, and they must be held accountable and the record corrected.

So this IJ business is more shocking than many understand. Ellen White does NOT support TA as the leaders claimed. Glacier View was based on a massive fraud in the White Estate that was uncovered in 1979. But the church leaders covered up this research and failed to inform the Adventist Community of the facts.

Thus when Dr Ford was tried for heresy at Glacier View in 1980, most of those in attendance did not know the truth about Ellen White’s view of the law or the Gospel, because the church was still hiding the 1888 debate from both the public and the scholars. This suppressed information in the White Estate would have vindicated Dr. Ford’s view of Three Angels Messages, including his correct position that the IJ was never a valid pillar in the Adventist Apocalyptic.

Today, Adventism is suffocating under a mountain of error. The present course of confusion, pluralism, and heresy is not sustainable. It is time to drill down to solid material and clean up this doctrinal disaster and historical sham. Ellen White has not taken the positions about the IJ that the White Estate has attributed to her, and this stunning fact, when understood and admitted, changes everything for Adventism.

The Takoma Park brand of TA is a fraud. Arthur White has so misrepresented Ellen White and her fundamental theology that he must be repudiated, along with TA, and the record corrected.

Regardless of the shenanigans in the White Estate, let all SDAs understand that:

A. There is no PAJ of the church in Daniel 8:14. NONE.

B. There is no IJ pillar anywhere in the Three Angels Messages. NONE.

C. The real PAJ is the LM. In Rev 3: 14.

This is the starting point for genuine and true Adventist Reform, even as it is the end of TA.

Bill said: 4. Christ entering the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary in AD.1844.

Tom said: Correct. Christ entered the MHP in the 1st century. All should agree on such a clear NT point.

Bill said: 5. All post-apostolic era date setting, like 1844 and 538-1798.

Tom said: Correct.

However, we can say that the preaching of Miller, as well as the unfolding of the two following Messages can indeed represent the fulfillment of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Angels Messages, and thus there are dates associated with the rise and progress of the Advent Movement.

Bill said: 6. The three angels messages of Revelation 14 beginning to sound in AD.1844.

Tom said: Here we seem to disagree.

The Three Angels Messages are a valid prophetic paradigm that represents the history and theology of the Advent Movement. No other church has ever made such a prophetic claim about these passages and thus the Adventists win by default.

The Three Angels Messages do represent the modern Advent Movement. The first Message was discovered in 1818 and started to sound in the late 1830’s. Then it grew louder in 1840, 1841, and 1842, and the year 1843, which was supposed to be the date for the Second Coming. Only after the time calculation of the 2300 days failed, did the year 1844 come into play. And then a revised version by Snow set the final date for October 22, 1844.

So which one of these dates represents the Adventist Apocalyptic? All of them, and thus 1844 is not a magic number as the TSDAs pretend. The 1st Angels Message was first understood by Miller in 1818, and then proclaimed for a number of years. So how does the date 1844 even fit?

It is the fulfillment of the 1st Angels Message by the preaching of Miller that is special and important. Too bad that the TSDAs have never understood any of this history or theology correctly.

While the paradigm of the Three Angels Messages, is prophetic and important, the date of 1844 is neither. It is a date that represents great failure and incorrect eschatology. It is just one more example of how the TSDAs have twisted both history and theology for their own legalistic agenda.

Regardless of how badly the TSDAs have misunderstood the Adventist Apocalyptic, the 3 Angels is the correct prophetic path for the last church. Even though this eschatology has been poorly and improperly understood by Adventists. It must be better understood and the paradigm completed.

The Three Angels Messages, and the 7 pillars that they contain, define and empower the Advent Movement. They can never be removed. Which is why it is so important to understand them correctly.

Bill said: 7.The United States of America as being the image to the beast of Revelation 13.

Tom said: It is too early to dismiss this point. The main point of which was to say that the US would become an evil power at the end of time.

This idea of America going bad is a fundamental and important part of SDA eschatology. While it is not patriotic, it seems very plausible and biblical.

In fact, the term Babylon, as used in Rev 18, can easily be applied to the Western World, and specifically the US. Read the following passage and substitute the word America and understand what is in store for this County, and why the SDAs were correct to warn about a Time of Trouble and how the US would go bad at the end of time.

Rev. 18:2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon America the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons…

Rev. 18:8 “For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.

Rev. 18:9 “And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning,

Rev. 18:10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, America the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

Rev. 18:11 “And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more —

Rev. 18:14 “The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them.

Rev. 18:15 “The merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning,

Rev. 18:16 saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, America, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls;

Rev. 18:17 for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance,

Rev. 18:18 and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’ America?

Rev. 18:19 “And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!’

This passage shows the ultimate doom of America, and that the Time of Trouble is started by a surprise and devastating strike that “burns” and destroys this last great world Empire. Thus, it is WMD’s that start the time of trouble, not Sunday laws, which neither burns nor generates smoke.

Rev 18 points to a debilitating attack on the West that will launch the great Time of Trouble and convert the US Government into something very different from democracy. Marshall law will be the natural reaction to such a catastrophe, and woe be to those unprepared.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1132526979

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … east-4.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ayLaws.htm

Bill said: 8. Spiritual gifts such as the visions and dreams of Ellen White are not inerrant, not equally authoritative with the Bible, not to be used to determine doctrine, and not of equal inspiration with the Bible.

Tom said: The White Estate’s failure to correctly explain Ellen White’s role, authority, and doctrinal views has brought great confusion and schism to the Advent Movement. This must be corrected before the SDAs can go forward. The White Estate has played the role of Judas, and they will not get away with this massive fraud that has so disoriented all SDAs.

Bill said: 9. Pacifism, which forbids the use of deadly force to defend ourselves, our families, or our country in a just war.

Tom said: Correct. Christians can fight in wars and play with guns, if they so choose. There are no rules that they must not carry guns.

Bill said: 10. The clean/unclean Levitical food laws being mandatorily binding upon Christians.

Tom said: Good for you! Many SDAs are certain that the Jewish Food Laws apply to the church, because this is what the leaders have taught for so many generations. But it is pure myth, just like tithe and wine being grape juice. Neither Jesus nor the Apostles were vegetarian, and the Gentiles are not subject to the OC laws about food. So here is another error of the SDAs.

But this does not mean there is no Health Message, or that a vegetarian diet is not superior to a meat based diet. There is no question that the SDAs were on to something very good and useful in Battle Creek, but they have made many errors along the way and now they have no functional Health Message at all.

Bill said: 11. Wine in the New Testament is grape juice only.

Good for you again! This is a hard truth for SDAs. Why? Because their incompetent leaders have deceived them about this point for generations. Most all SDAs are horrified to hear that wine in the Bible is real wine and not fruit juice.

They are also stunned to know that Ellen White drank wine as medicine on a regular basis. James White printed this fact in the Review, but the White Estate decided to pretend that she would never do such a thing. Thus the White Estate is once more responsible for promoting myth and false doctrines.

Bill said: 12. No jewelry wearing for Christians.

Tom said: Here again the White Estate has played a leading role in deceiving people. In fact, they have even stooped so low as to doctor photographs of Ellen White wearing Jewelry, so as to make it appear that she did not. The White Estate is a den of deception and false doctrine, and no one should believe anything they say about the Bible or Adventist history. They have not capable of telling the truth about Ellen White, nor do they care.

Bill said: 13. A close of probation for the believer in Christ before Christ comes.

Tom said: The PAJ of the church, which is the LM, has determined that all Christians are guilty of sin and doomed unless they repent. Those that refuse, will lose their salvation and their names will be removed from the book of life.

Bill said: 14. A period of time, called the time of Jacobs trouble just before Christ comes again, when the intercession of Christs imputed merit will no longer be necessary for the remnant perfected believers.

Tom said: Correct. There is no time when any Christian is without Jesus imputed righteousness, except for those that are thrown out of the church for failing to repent as the LM demands. Thus all SDAs are already judged wretched, blind, and naked. Only if they repent for their many false doctrines can they be saved.

Bill said: 15.The blotting out of sin as a special or final atonement for the people of God which is different than the forgiveness of sins.

Tom replied: Correct. There is no special atonement for anyone. All in Laodicea have been judged GUILTY in the real PAJ, which is the LM, by the Judge, who is Jesus. Only by zealous repentance will any SDA be saved.

Bill said: 16. The latter rain as a second blessing of the Holy Spirit which restores the character of Gods people to the original innocence of Adam before the fall.

Tom said: Correct. The last church is the worst of all church eras. They are barely saved as it is. There is no chance that any will ever attain to sinlessness or perfection prior to the Second Coming. Ellen White was correct to repudiate character perfection after 1888. Too bad that the White Estate decided that the Adventist Community did not need to know this.

Bill said: 17. Sinless perfection for the final generation before Christ comes.

Tom said: Like I said, the LM has found all that claim to be Christian, wretched, blind, and naked. THIS is what the final Christians look like. Such a state is the opposite of perfect. If they do not repent, they are doomed.

But even such repentance does not elevate them to a state of perfection. Those that accept the LM and repent are still great sinners, like all others. The only difference is that they have repented and embraced the Gospel. They have admitted that tithing in the church is a great error and there is no PAJ in the Daniel, and on and on. Thus they must admit to being very foolish and wrong about many things and thus they are saved because of Christ’s Righteousness, not their own.

Bill said: 18. The Last Days, the time of the end began in AD.1798 rather than the apostolic era.

Tom said: This is true. But Realized Eschatology is not a substitute or replacement for Consummated Eschatology. There is going to come a time when the final events will take place. This period, which includes the Time of Trouble, can also be referred to the last days of the world in a literal, not a figurative sense.

Bill said: The very truths that Adventism was raised up to restore are now spoken evil of because of the sins of the SDA leadership, especially the Ellen G. White Estate, which has resisted and hedged up the way for the truth to be taught to the Seventh-day Adventist members.

Tom said: The SDAs will never amount to anything unless they clean up the corruption in the White Estate and dismantle their anti- Gospel hierarchy that mirrors the RCC. The White Estate is a criminal enterprise. They have foisted a massive fraud on the public, which must be exposed and corrected.

The Adventist Community must rise up and demand that the White Estate be cleaned up and the record corrected. No one should support or defend this den of propaganda and fraud.

Bill said: These reforms in Adventist teaching are absolutely necessary in order for a true revival of primitive godliness to take place among the advent people. Then and only then will the people of God in other folds begin to take the Seventh-day Adventist denomination seriously and join this God-ordained movement to restore the bible and only the bible as the rule of faith.

Tom said: The SDAs are famous for their contribution about Consummated Eschatology. Until they better understand the Gospel and the final events, they have nothing to offer anyone.

Bill said: Seventh-day Adventism is not a cult. There are cultic Seventh-day Adventists, but the essence of the Adventist movement is true historic Protestant Christianity.

Tom said: While the SDAs have a legitimate Protestant pedigree, they have degenerated into a cult. Why? Because they have misunderstood law, Gospel, and the Judgment, as well as hermeneutics, prophecy, church history, and on and on. With so many errors, how can they be anything but a silly and wretched cult? This is why they are doomed unless they repent and embrace correct doctrine.

The PAJ of the church claims that the SDAs are a cult. This is why they are called wretched, blind, and naked. I agree. This is what they are and this is what they will remain until they repent and reform.

Bill said: The Adventist movement in its truest evangelical expression as God intends this movement to be will be a restoration movement rather than an innovation movement. Just look at the true essence of Adventism:

Tom said: Today, the SDA church is wretched, blind and naked, even as they declare themselves better than all others and without error. How can such arrogance and delusion be viewed as a good thing?

The SDAs are an eschatological Movement founded on the Three Angels Messages of Rev 14. They are an apocalyptical group that is supposed to be preparing the church for the final events and the end of the world. This is the point and the mission of the SDAs. THIS is why they exist.

They are Protestant, and thus their context is Protestant. So they must uphold the fundamentals of the Protestant Faith, first and foremost. But they have not done this. In fact, they have done the opposite, even persecuting those, like Dr. Ford, for standing true to the Protestant Gospel.

Moreover, the paradigm of the Three Angels is new and innovative, which is why it has never come to light prior to the Advent Movement.

The book of Revelation was ignored for the vast majority of church history, even as the 19th century Advent Movement embraced it in a way that had never been done before. They also used it to shatter post millennialism and to demarcate the Advent Movement as fulfilled prophecy.

Thus the true essence of the Advent Movement is about prophecy in the book of Revelation. The movement is all about Gospel Eschatology and the end of the world, including the completion of the Protestant Reformation. This was new, and so too their concept that America would morph into an evil Nation.

So Adventism was very innovative and cutting edge, even in their methods used to market their Message. The innovation of the 7th day Sabbath was also added to the Apocalyptic as the paradigm unfolded, and thus Adventism represents a unique change for the church on many fronts.

Adventism was meant to represent the final manifestation of the Gospel at the end of time. But they have failed spectacularly for all to see. Now they don’t even understand their own history, much less the Gospel or the Adventist Apocalyptic.

Bill said: 1. Adventism uplifts the Third Use of the Law which is so important in this lawless diabolical age in which we live.

Tom said: So too did the Reformers. This is a standard Protestant position that the SDAs misused as they embraced legalism with both hands.

Bill said: 2. Adventism uplifts the Second Use of the Law which is so important as a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ to continually be justified by faith in His sinless life and atoning death on Calvary.

Tom said: The SDAs have never understood the Gospel correctly, much less the book of Galatians, so why pretend otherwise? They uplifted legalism and obedience to the law. They teach that God gives us the power to obey the law, so we can be saved. But this is a great error and misuse of the law and the Gospel.

You know this Bill, so why are you pretending that the SDAs have this correct? To this day they do not embrace the correct view of JBF, nor do they view the law in Galatians correctly, or understand Sanctification correctly.

Bill said: 3. Adventism re-establishes the glorious truth of the resurrection of the dead at the Second Coming of Christ as the hope of the believer rather than the Grecian view of the immortal soul which lives on after death.

Tom said: While the SDA position on the State of the Dead is fully correct, they have failed to give Luther the credit for this position. It was Luther who correctly taught this view and the SDAs need to stop pretending that it was their discovery. It was not. Luther gets the credit and the praise. Their view is the correct view of Luther.

Bill said: 4. Adventism affirms the virgin birth of Christ and His unique incarnation as fully God and fully man.

Tom said: This is hardly new. The RCC also affirms the virgin Birth and so too does the P’s.

Bill said: 5. Adventism is a necessary bulwark against the prevailing error of antinomian Dispensationalism which is sweeping the evangelical Christian world today and foolishly focuses on the Zionist events in the middle east, a rebuilding of the Levitical temple, and a secrete rapture of the church.

Tom said: How can failed Adventism represent a fortress of truth? The SDAs have made a mockery out of the Judgment and have invented their own delusions about how the world will end. These views are as silly and cultic as anything out there.

While others have a strange view of Israel in last day events, the SDAs do not have a correct view either. Their eschatology totally ignores the rise of the State of Israel in 1947. This is a great error. So they have a lot of work to do in order to update their eschatology.

Bill said: 6. Adventism uplifts and restores the Sabbath commandment as a memorial to Christs having created the universe in six literal days. The Sabbath is Gods emphatic rebuke to the abomination of Darwinian evolutionism.

Tom said: First off, it was the Jews that “uplifted” the Sabbath. How did that work out for them?

So lets all understand that embracing the Sabbath proves nothing. The Jews were great Sabbath keepers. They even killed their Christ because he refused to follow their very important and sacred Sabbath rules. But at the end of the day, their Nation was destroyed and even the Gentiles in the church despised their Sabbath and changed it into Sunday.

There is no sense for SDAs to brag about the Sabbath. As if this makes them better, or even saved because of it. They are not better and they are not saved. This is what the real PAJ is saying to the SDAs. They don’t understand the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath.

The SDAs get no credit for embracing the WRONG Sabbath, that is, the Sabbath of the Pharisees. This is a great error. They have the wrong Sabbath. There is a Reformed, Gospel Sabbath for the Church, but the SDAs have not understood nor embraced it as yet.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm

However, under the 4th Angels Message, this will be corrected and thus the final Advent Message will contain a correct view of the 7th day Sabbath. Every church and denomination in the land will be stunned when they realize their great error on this point and they too will be faced with the PAJ and admonished to REPENT.

So the Sabbath will play a dramatic role in the last day events, just not in the way that the SDAs imagined.

Bill said: 7. Adventism affirms the Biblical truth of the fall of man in the Garden of Eden as the origin of sin and suffering and death. This truth is denied by all forms of Darwinism.

Tom said: It is a fundamental view of the Protestant Faith that man is born sinful. So the SDAs are just embracing normative and correct views of their P heritage.

How disgusting that the TSDAs tried to claim that Jesus was born just like us, with a sinful nature, when that was never the case. Such a twisted view leads to the error of perfection and prevents one from comprehending the Gospel.

Moreover, the Genesis account is not to be taken literally, as if it were a scientific account. Those that insist the earth is very young are taking a position that is neither necessary nor salvific.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Gospel.htm

There is no salvation in how one views the creation story. Many will be in heaven who have the wrong view of how the earth was created and its age. So what? It is not a point of salvation and there is no sense for it to be.

Bill said: 8. Adventism affirms the existence of a real fallen angel named Lucifer who became Satan along with one third of the angelic host.

Tom said: This is a long held position that is hardly unique with SDAs.

Bill said: 9. Adventism affirms a literal world-wide flood, which destroyed the lawless unbelieving antediluvian world and the saving of Noah and his family by God's unmerited grace.

Tom said: The SDAs were supposed to do more than affirm the Judgment of the flood story. They are supposed to be preparing the church for the final Judgment, which will be worse than the flood and kill far more people.

However, there is no salvation in the flood story, only a warning that God will Judge the world again. The debate over the details of the flood, like the Creation Story, will never be fully understood or explained in this life, and thus there is no use in getting dogmatic about such details.

Bill said: 10. Adventism affirms the vicarious atonement of our Lord Jesus Christ in that He is the Seed of the woman who has fulfilled all the righteous demands of the Law for us so that in Him we are accounted sinless and righteous in His sight even unto the coming of the Lord.

Tom said: This is a fundamental point of the Protestant Faith. Too bad that the SDAs have never understood the law or the Gospel correctly. They are so legalistic that they have added our Sanctification to the Gospel, and made fools of themselves. Unless they repent, they are doomed.

Bill said: 11. Adventism is a warning and a witness that God is about to destroy all the world and all who refuse to repent, believe the gospel of Christ, and allow God to write His law upon their hearts through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Tom said: The story of the Jews represents a warning to the world that God will not tolerate legalism or corruption. The Gentile SDAs have come along and mimicked the behavior of the Jews, even down to their food laws, Temple finance, and Old Covenant Sabbath keeping. They have misunderstood Jesus and God, even as they have persecuted the Gospel and acted very much like the faithless, 1st century Jews.

So there is nothing to cheer about. The Adventists have failed, failed, and failed again. Pity.

Bill said: 12. Adventism affirms that God will totally annihilate sin, Satan, and all unrepentant sinners at the final judgment rather than an eternally burning fire in unending pain and suffering.

Tom said: While this is correct, it was Luther who gets the credit for this view. So the SDAs have invented nothing new here, and they should thank Luther for this insight, not pat themselves on the back for embracing correct doctrine. If only they could view the law and the Gospel like Luther. Then there would be cause for rejoicing.

Bill said; 13. Adventism as a true child of the Reformation is an ongoing rebuke to the abominable errors of Roman Catholicism.

Tom said: While Adventism SHOULD be the true child of the Reformation, they are more correctly the children of the faithless Jews and the Papists.

The SDAs have no basis to rebuke anyone. They have so many errors that they cannot be considered Protestant as you claim. The Protestant Faith does not allow legalism or tithe paying or a hierarchy, much less OC Sabbath keeping, Jewish Food laws, and grape juice for the Eucharist, etc.

Last edited by tom_norris (03-27-10 6:23 pm)

tom_norris · 09-15-09 11:21 am

Bill said: Tom, Before I attempt to reply to your interpretation and understanding of the "Four Angels messages of Revelation 14, I want to ask you a question.

Tom said: Bill, This thread is about the 1st Angels Message and the PAJ. Try and focus. Also note that the 4th Angels Message is associated with Rev 18, and is not the topic of this thread.

The issue under discussion is the PAJ of the church, which is commonly associated with the 1st Angels Message. Is it located in Daniel 8:14, as you, and many others claim- or is it in Revelation 3: 14, as I insist? Is it the IJ or is it the LM?

You need to answer the questions and process the issues. Otherwise why come online here? For what purpose? What is the point of dancing around the problems? Why do you keep stonewalling and going off topic? This is what the TSDAs do all the time. I did not expect it of you. But then again, I was shocked when Goldstein did the same thing.

I have discovered that those that run from the issues do so for a reason. Because they are wrong!

I have also discovered that the longer one has been an SDA, the less ability they have to think rationally, critically, or honestly. Having a discussion with many Adventists today is a fruitless endeavor, because their minds have been ruined by years of cultic indoctrination and propaganda. It is the same as speaking with a Mormon or Scientologist, - a big waste of time.

Why did you come here if you had no intention of dealing with the issues?

It seems that the SDA’s today are still not ready, willing, or able to have an open or honest discussion about anything. 30 years after Glacier View, and they are still full of double-talk and pride. This is sad, even pathetic. No wonder the Adventists are so fragmented and confused. They don’t know how to talk straight, nor do they even seem to care. They think they know the Bible better than all others, when the opposite is obviously the case.

Bill asked: Have you been in touch with Desmond Ford recently and if so how recently?

Tom said: What in the world does this have to do with the issues of this thread? Do you think Dr. Ford has changed his mind about how he views the book of Daniel, Hanukkah, or the IJ? Are you suggesting that he no longer believes in the Gospel that he so passionately preaches?

The real question is not about Dr. Ford, but about why Bill D refuses to face the issues about the IJ and the PAJ? I am in touch with YOU right now, and YOU need to face up to the issues.

Whenever I ask Dr. Ford any questions, he goes right to the point and answers all of them. Just take a look at his AToday Interview and see for yourself. He does not double-talk, go off topic, or run from the issues. You need to follow his example.

So Bill, stop postponing the inevitable. If you can’t rebut the evidence that you are wrong--and you can’t--then you lose and you need to admit it. It is a pretty simple concept. You have not been able to defend your views, nor will you ever be able to do so, - because they are wrong. Don’t feel bad; this same thing happened to Goldstein and many others. He ran away, embarrassed and humiliated. What are you going to do? Run or Repent?

There is a paradigm shift taking place and it is time for all to admit the obvious and be thankful there is a way out of this crisis. The Adventist Community needs to wake up and stop playing games. The return to the Three Angels Messages is the only thing that can save the SDA church.

Bill asked: And further, have you at all discussed his most recent views of theology, soteriology, epistemology, eschatology, and cosmology?

Tom said: The last time I sat down with Dr. Ford was for the AToday Interview and then the follow up. Have you read it? After it was completed no one would dare address it, much less get into a debate about the issues. So until some critic can step forward and prove Dr. Ford wrong, what else needs to be said by him?

That fact that you want to challenge Dr. Fords views, so many years after Glacier View, is interesting, even amusing. But it will turn out to be a futile and empty gesture, leaving you with a red face and a bruised ego. It is already turning out badly for you on this thread. I suggest that you stop digging yourself a deeper hole and repent before you get in too deep.

Bill Johnson, Goldstein, and all others have run from this discussion. Not one of them dared challenge Dr. Fords interview or agree to be interviewed by Tom Norris. Why? Because none of them can speak to the issues. Rather, they throw stones from a distance and then run. And now you are here, speaking ill of Dr. Ford, repudiating his views, and all the while refusing to address the issues or answer the questions from Tom Norris.

I am not impressed with your hypocritical, cultic, and uninformed behavior that has come to represent how the SDA’s deal with their problems.

As to your question: I doubt that Dr. Ford has changed any answers that he gave in his interview. Especially not about the Gospel, prophecy, or church history. But I will make sure to ask him this question when I do a follow up interview next year. This is where a lot of my questions for him came from. They were from the confused critics, and Dr. Ford answered them all.

So don’t go around starting rumors with this self-righteous gossip of yours that Dr. Ford is turning his back on the Bible or the Gospel. You should be ashamed of yourself for even making such suggestions. Who are you to pass judgment or start rumors about Dr. Ford?

As for Dr. Ford’s view of the Creation, he has written a very clear article about his views not too long ago, and I doubt there is any change whatsoever in his views today.

I gave you this link before. Did you miss it?

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Gospel.htm

http://www.adventistreform.com/TheGenesisDebate.html

If you think you have a better view of Genesis, feel free to write a rebuttal paper and post it up on a new thread. I will be happy to come by to address your points and dismantle your views.

Bill said: I think that if you were to sit down with him you would find that he has gone far beyond his old Adventist views on eschatology and cosmology and anthropology especially.

Tom said: Dr. Ford understands the Gospel and the Bible much better then you or I ever will, so don’t worry about him, worry about your own confused soul. In fact, you are having a hard time on this thread trying to understand some basic facts about Jewish history and church history. Dr. Ford is way ahead of you on all these points.

Moreover, this thread is not about Dr. Ford or Creation. So stop the diversions and gossip and try to focus on the topic at hand.

Bill said: The last time I talked with him directly on the phone he flatly denied that he believed that the keeping of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment was ever going to be a "test" for the Christian church either now or in the future.

Tom laughed: Ha! This is too funny. Why would you expect Dr. Ford to embrace the legalistic eschatology of Traditional Adventism? Of course he denies that law keeping, and the observance of Old Covenant Sabbath keeping, will play a role in Gospel eschatology. So do I.

Most SDA’s are not even aware that they have embraced the wrong Sabbath. Most don’t even know that a new Sabbath is emerging that will replace the incorrect and legalistic version that has been featured by them for so many years. There is more to the Sabbath then just getting the day correct. Much more.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm

The final Gospel proclamation, know as the 4th Angels Message in SDA eschatology, is not about a day or our obedience to the law. Moreover, there can be no OC Sabbath keeping in such a Gospel based proclamation. But Sunday is a fraud and so at the end of time, the last church will come to understand that there is a Seventh-day Gospel Sabbath. But it is very different from what the SDA’s promote. They have embraced the Sabbath of the Pharisees, not the New Covenant Sabbath that Jesus promoted in the Gospels.

So I agree with Dr. Ford; he is correct. Obedience to the Moral law, as manifested by OC Sabbath observance, cannot be a test of salvation. This is also one reason why the IJ is a farce. This Battle Creek view will not hold up for a number of reasons.

In fact, this whole idea that Sunday persecution starts the time of trouble is against the Bible and cannot be defended. The SDA’s are going to have to repent of their immature 19th century views, and figure out how the last day events will really unfold. This is a much better pursuit than trying to defend a young earth position.

Here is a thread that will help you understand this issue a little better.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1045379969

Bill said: Also in an online discussion with him on the issues, he flatly denied that Genesis 1-11 is a true historical account of the creation of the world, the creation of a literal man and woman named Adam and Eve, the fall of man, the existence of a real curseless/perfect Garden of Eden, the entrance of sin through Satan's temptation in the Garden, the entrance of suffering and death there, and the literal promise by God in a face to face discussion with Adam, a seed, which would destroy the kingdom of Satan.

Tom said: Dr. Ford clearly promotes the view that the Creation account is not to be taken literally, nor is it to be viewed as a scientific account. I agree.

Sinners are saved by faith in the Gospel, not by faith in the Creation Story, or by pretending to know the age of the earth. One does not have to know either geology or anthropology to embrace the Gospel and find Eternal Life. Rejoice and be glad.

Bill said: Dr. Ford stated that he feels Genesis is merely of "theological" value but not of actual "historical" value.

Tom said: It is not possible for such an ancient text to be taken literally, much less for it to be proven accurate by modern science. Nor is there any reason to try and find the Ark in order to prove the flood. Those that search for such proofs have fallen into a trap.

We are saved by the Gospel, not by our views of how the world was created. Neither the age of the earth, nor the depth or totality of the flood, are test questions for Eternal Life. So don’t pretend otherwise.

I suggest that you read Dr. Fords article about Genesis and thus remove the need to gossip and make reckless assumptions about his views or his person.

Bill said: The fact is, Tom, that if the history of Genesis is false or at all mythological or merely allegorical then the theology of the entire Christian faith is merely existential opinion based merely upon the ideas, myths, and inventions of superstitious men who invented an imaginary god:

Tom said: Dr. Ford never said that the Creation account was false or mythical. Or that God did not create the world. Rather, he has correctly said that the Creation Story must not be taken as a scientific or historic account, as if this story can be proven or even understood in a literal fashion.

Here are his words: “Genesis 1 should be viewed as literature, semi-poetic in style.” The Creation account is “using the language of appearance so as to cater for all peoples, of all ages, in all places-despite illiteracy. The vast majority of scholarly commentaries in the last century take this position.” The Genesis Debate, by Dr. Ford; link cited above.

Moreover, Dr. Ford has made it clear that Genesis is inspired. So don’t confuse his interpretations of Creation with his views about the inspiration of the Word. Dr. Ford’s hermeneutical skills are Protestant, scholarly, and impeccable, while your views fall flat in many areas.

In fact, anyone that thinks the church can be subject to the Old Covenant, and judged by anything in the book of Daniel, has demonstrated such a poor and impossible hermeneutic as to be laughable.

How can an OT prophet judge the Church? This is an absurd position that is not possible. The Old Covenant does not judge the New. No Protestant can ever take such a position, so what does this make you?

Bill, you are in no position to criticize how Dr. Ford views Genesis, much less to repudiate his correct teaching about Dan 8: 14, of which he is a world class expert. You are the one taking impossible and incorrect positions, not Dr. Ford.

Dr. Ford knows what he is talking about when it comes to the Gospel Story and how to understand the Bible. He is a master of the Word, understanding Genesis and Daniel, as well as all the other books. His Glacier View document was so far above and beyond the comprehension of his fellow Adventists that few, if any, could understand what he was saying. Ha! Few could even read or understand the material! This is still the case today. How Pitiful is that?

There are legions today that still do not understand that Dr. Ford’s Gospel, as well as his correct version of the Three Angels Messages, was correct. He was not taking a position against Ellen White or the Fundamentals, but was in fact defending the only version of the Adventist Apocalyptic that the Pioneers ever endorsed.

Ellen White never, never, never viewed the IJ, or the PAJ, as part of the 1st Angels Message. Rev 14: 7 was always and only a doctrinal pillar about the Second Coming as the Day of Judgment. The preaching about this eschatology is what became the fulfilled prophecy of the 1st Angels Message. It is the reason why the Advent Movement came into existence. To deny this is to deny Adventism.

So there never was a PAJ in the 1st Angels Message. It has been myth and delusion all along, and thus all Adventists are going to have to admit they were wrong for ever thinking that there was a PAJ in the 1st Angels Messages. This means you too Bill.

Rather than take cheap shots at Dr. Ford, you need to apologize to him and repent. Why? Because not only are you wrong, you are not qualified to dust Dr. Fords library or empty his trash. You need to pay closer attention to what he teaches and repent for even thinking that you understand the Gospel Story and the Bible better than Dr. Ford.

You do not understand the Bible correctly, and neither does Goldstein, or anyone that supports the PAJ of the church from the OT. The SDA’s seem unable to process any information other than what they have been brainwashed to believe, and this mental problem is ruining them. This is sad. Which is why neither you nor Goldstein can admit the obvious and confess that Hanukkah is the primary interpretation of Dan 8: 14. Until you both do this, you are lost and confused men.

There is no PAJ in Daniel. Dr. Ford is correct; you and Traditional Adventism are not.

Bill said: Darwin and the secular humanists ultimately win in the struggle for philosophical dominance. It is only a matter of time and the Christian bible will only be of existential value and therefore merely of value in an attempt discover the "mythological" Jesus.

Tom said: Those that try to prove the Creation Story, or the flood, and try to make these ancient accounts square with modern science, are playing a fools game.

First, it can’t be done. So why try? Why draw a line in the sand, and fight an unnecessary war? One that will turn many into agnostics and skeptics. The Genesis Story cannot be proven or defended by the use of science, nor was it ever meant to be so judged. It is not to be taken in a literal sense for adults. So why try the impossible? For what purpose?

We have no idea how God really created the world, or how many years the planning and execution may have taken. Such an attempt to understand the cosmic only harms the Gospel Story and hurts the credibility of the Bible.

The Christian must focus his faith on the Gospel. He must use the Word in a religious sense, and not a scientific one, which presumes to understand the details of Creation and the age of the earth.

It is hard enough for Gentiles to believe that Jesus is who he claims to be, and that as God’s Son, he died on the cross for the sins of others. Then they are asked to believe that he was resurrected and taken back up to heaven, from where he will return to Judge the world and save the church at the Second Coming. This is saving faith. Science cannot verify it, nor does science have anything to do with this story.

The same goes for Creation. To fight over the details of Creation, and to try and force this or that interpretation on the Gentiles is absurd and against the Gospel. Jesus did not go around preaching about the age of the earth, and neither did the apostles. Such issues are not to be pushed to the front or made a test.

Dr. Fords position about Genesis 1 is designed to preserve the Gospel Story and direct our faith to where it is needed most—the Gospel. It removes the scientific debate from the theological discussion and preserves the integrity of Genesis, allowing both paradigms, (scientific and Theological), to co-exist in their own separate spheres.

There need be no war between Faith and Science. Such debates are a diversion from the Gospel, a trap for the church that is meant to keep them off message and looking stupid and uneducated.

Bill said: Make no mistake; if the history of Genesis is mythological then Christianity is a mere myth.

Tom said: Few deny there is a God. But many deny the details of Creation as interpreted by the church. But since when has the church ever been correct about science? It took them 500 years to apologize to Galileo!

The church, whether RC or P, has no right to force anyone to believe in their interpretations of the Bible as it relates to science and the world. They have proven themselves incompetent in such matters, and it is all they can do to try and understand the Spiritual. Which they have also failed to understand correctly.

This idea that the earth is only 6,000 years old is not valid for educated people. Nor is it a sacred doctrine that has the approval of Heaven. This is not what the text says anyway, nor is any age of the earth, or the details of creation, a prerequisite in order to embrace the Gospel and enter the Kingdom of God.

So stop pretending that there is a correct answer to this “important” question. There is no correct answer and the question is not important. The age of the earth will be an irrelevant point as we go down to the grave, even as many other views will become useless on the Judgment day.

You have also made a mistake to claim that Dr. Ford views the Creation Story as “mere myth.” He never said that, and you need to stop spreading such malicious gossip.

Moreover, you are making the same mistake as many others that have come online to discuss genuine Adventist Reform. You create diversions, promote myth, and refuse to answer the questions or deal with the issues. This is exactly the kind of behavior that has ruined the Advent Movement and made it so full of cognitive dissonance and double-talk. No wonder that millions have fled this silly cult that refuses to repent.

This thread is about the IJ and PAJ. You need to deal with these points and stop throwing stones at Dr. Ford and ranting on about the Creation Story and Realized Eschatology. Life is short. Consummated Eschatology is the focus of the Advent Movement, even as the Three Angels Messages represents the true path for the last church.

Deal with the issues my friend.

Your view about the PAJ is wrong and you need to repent, as well as apologize to Dr. Ford for your recent slanders.

You and Goldstein both need to study Judaism to better understand how the Jews viewed Dan 8:14. Although you are a Gentile, and thus not familiar with the Jewish holidays, Goldstein is a Jew! He should know better, and so too should you by now.

How can a Jewish Christian not understand how his own people viewed Dan 8: 14? How can any SDA familiar with Glacier View think that there is a PAJ in the book of Daniel? I find this amazing. And sad.

It is time for all SDA’s, no matter what side of the debate they stand, to stop stonewalling the facts and deal with the real issues. The Adventists have become experts at double-talk, diversion, and propaganda, but what has it accomplished? The Advent Movement has been decimated by such double-talk, incompetence, and dishonesty. It needs to stop.

The Advent Movement will continue to self-destruct unless it:

#1. Returns to the genuine version of the Three Angels Messages, and to the 7 pillars within this apocalyptic model.

#2. Embraces the LM as the PAJ and repents for 1888 and Glacier View.

These are the first two steps that will unite and save the Advent Movement. Nothing else will work.

This is what must happen. Traditional Takoma Park Adventism must be repudiated, and so too the White Estate that created this farce. The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Angels Messages must be correctly understood and embraced by the Advent Community, and so too the genuine PAJ.

The present confusion of Traditional Adventism, Evangelical Adventism, and Pluralism, should no longer be tolerated, embraced, or promoted. It is time for genuine Adventist Reform and Re-organization.

So Bill, let’s get back to basics and figure out how to understand and define the Three Angels Messages. What is the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message? Is it the IJ and the PAJ as the SDA leaders teach so loudly? Or is it the Second Coming? Which one has the support of Ellen White and all the Pioneers? Which position does not?

The fate of the SDA church and the Advent Movement is dependant upon this answer. If the Adventists can’t figure out this simple point, there is no need for them to exist. The last thing the world needs is another double-talking and corrupt religion. If they can’t figure out their own history and doctrines correctly, why do they think they can correct the world?

Hint: The PAJ is not in Daniel 8 or in Rev 14.

I suggest you try to deal with the point of this thread, and embrace the direction of Adventist Reform, because there will never be any worthwhile REFORM until the Adventists deal honestly and correctly with the history and theology of the Three Angels Messages. Period.

This means that the PAJ must be correctly understood and properly positioned within SDA eschatology. Only when this is done can the Advent Movement stop the madness and regroup. Then they can move forward to develop the final Gospel Message that will precede the Great Time of Trouble and prepare the Church for the Second Coming, which is the Day of Judgment for the world.

This is the point of Adventist Reform.

I hope this helps you understand…

Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform

Last edited by tom_norris (03-27-10 6:39 pm)

billdljr · 09-15-09 12:11 pm

There is no need for further dialogue with you since you resort to so many personal attacks upon those with whom you argue. You need to spend some time in the school of Christ and learn the humility and kindness that should clothe the followers of Christ. You are so self righteous and pompous in your words and attitudes towards those with whom you deal as if they are your worse enemy.

This is the real proof of what spirit is leading you in your imagined defense of Adventist Reform. God deliver the SDA people from the spirit that you manifest. I would rather be a traditional SDA mired in date setting than to become like you and your self righteousness.

This will be my last post addressed to you. I am sure you will make one of you imagined superior replies but I will not waste my time with you any more. Is it any wonder that others just walk away from you and your diatribes? You are doing more harm to the SDA movement than you will ever imagine until the final Day of reckoning. And to think that you call yourself an all expert on the WWW! What a joke!! Even Ellen G. White would not have anything to do with you and your spirit.

Bill Diehl, editor

www.PresentTruthMag.org

Message edited by billdljr on September 15, 2009

john8verse32 · 09-15-09 1:28 pm

Tom, and Bill....

none of this disagreement is your fault!!!! at least the underlying basis is already there for disagreement.

it may not be humanly possible to understand what was so poorly presented in the first place.

That's why I no longer believe that:

if God is the loving god of the New Test that the Old Test did its best to disprove, then He/She

will not burn us all to death after some computerized IJ.... but instead, will feel responsible to enlighten us as to what He/She meant in the first place...

cause the mess.age got to us all messed up and confused:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ … ncies.html

otoh,

if God is actually the angry, murderous ogre as depicted in the OT

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ … ocity.html

then either there is no hope for

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com … -kill.html

...beyons and beyons of people...

or one hopes He doesn't exist, or that He is actually a She and She will change her mind, or one tries to accept that the Hebrews and the early Xians may have gotton a lot of the story wrong, either that, or

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sour … f&oq=&aqi=

"one may choose to vote with their feet..

bob_2 · 09-15-09 9:50 pm

Hey, John, how about a little competition? Here are some answers to your apparent absurdities:

http://www.apocalipsis.org/difficulties/

Adventists for Tomorrow

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