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#1 10-11-09 11:33 am

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

The Fraud of Church Tithing

Many SDA’s are stunned and shocked to hear that tithing is a false doctrine.  Their first response is utter disbelief, because they have been indoctrinated from their youth to think that this is how the NT church was financed-- and what God still expects today.   

Moreover, the SDA’s promote tithe every Sabbath, without fail, in all their churches.  Every pew contains tithe envelopes, and the members are strongly encouraged by the Pastor and others, from the pulpit, to use them as they “return their tithe to God,” which they claim is the sacred duty of all Christians.   

In fact, next to the Sabbath, there is no doctrine that receives more promotion than tithe.  It is one of the modern SDA’s greatest doctrines, upon which their entire organizational system is managed and supported.   

Furthermore, if any Pastor or church scholar questions this doctrine, or opposes it, they will be quickly removed, as this topic is off limits for discussion or examination.

I have personally challenged the SDA leaders to discuss this topic online, but they all run away, refusing to comment.  Why?  Because they know that they cannot sustain this false doctrine that pays their salaries.   

They also know that they will be fired if they ever admit that tithe is an error.  But the facts are what they are, and no amount of censorship, arm-twisting, or propaganda can ever make false doctrines into truth.  There is no such doctrine as tithe in the New Covenant, and there has never been such an impossible doctrine any more than there is a Sunday Sabbath, Secret Rapture, or an Easter Bunny.

The SDA leaders should be ashamed of themselves for deceiving their members about tithe and church organization.  Their dishonest, anti-Gospel position is outrageous, dangerous, and arrogant, proving that they are not fit to handle the Word of God, much less to speak in his name.   Greed is not a gift of the Spirit and neither is the relentless promotion of false, dishonest, and self-serving doctrine.

Here are some links about tithe:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/ … 96728.shtl

www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/01/sunday/m>ain3896728.shtml

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB … 01375.html

http://www.lighthouseprophecy.com/proph … heLie.html

http://www.freedomfromtithing.info/

http://www.bible-truths-revealed.com/adv15.html

http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/

http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html

http://www.tithingdebate.com/

http://www.ontimepub.com/index.html

http://tithing.christian-things.com/

http://www.jamesrussellpublishing.biz/thetithelie.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheTitheisIllegal.html

http://www.nomoretithing.org/nmt_links.html

Here are some past discussions about tithe:

http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=453

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1036004402

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 15420.html

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/7387.html

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … hing-1.htm

It is very easy to Google tithe and look up many more sites that discuss this topic.  Some will be for it, and a growing number will be against it.  If you are honest, you will have to study the issues and choose whichever view follows the Gospel.   

Moreover, as you study the NT on this topic, you will discover that nowhere does it show any Christian paying tithe, receiving tithe, or spending tithe.  Why?  Because the apostolic church never embraced this Old Covenant method to finance the church.

They used sharing, not tithing.  Thus no amount of double-talk and proof-texting from the SDA’s, Mormons, or anyone else, will ever be able to change this fact, much less defend their absurd and greedy position that exposes them as foolish deceivers and Protestant Pretenders.   

Of course this is not their only false doctrine, but it is one of their most important because it provides them resources to play church and to strut around pretending to be Christians, when they are really a very confused, divisive, and dishonest cult.  Shame on the SDA’s, they have much to confess and repent.

When the majority of the Adventist Community understands that NT tithe is a total and complete fraud, they can remove their incompetent and dishonest leaders who have been misleading and deceiving them all these years.   

The discovery that tithe is a sham should open the eyes of every SDA to the fact that their leaders are “wretched” and blind to the Gospel.  Such fools should not be trusted or obeyed because they are great liars and deceivers.  This stunning situation demands CONFESSION and REPENTENCE, as well as major REFORM within Adventism.

When the doctrine of NT tithe falls in the SDA church, so too will Traditional Adventism.  Let all with honest heart pray for that day.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Last edited by tom_norris (02-12-11 6:13 pm)

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#2 10-11-09 3:05 pm

don
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,121

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

Tom, thanks for the links. They provide a useful resource in the study of tithing.

The NT certainly does not present tithing as an established doctrine. Early Adventists up to the mid-1870's did not practice tithing. The idea of giving a percentage or portion of one's income was practiced a decade, or so, earlier. The leaders referred to this practice as Systematic Benevolence, Sister Betsy, or just simply SB. As I understand it, D. M. Canright first presented the Biblical reasons for formal tithing.

If the Maker of the Universe presents an idea to a group of people, i.e. the Israelites, and if that idea remains practical over millenia, then, I see nothing wrong with taking the idea and implementing it in the Christian era. I would not present it as New Covenant obligation, but an effective plan, nonetheless. There are features of the tithing system which cannot be easily brought forward such as its agricultural components.

There are secular business people who believe they should save a tithe of their income as a means of maintaining wealth.

Not only can people be assessed by the fruit of their actions but ideas can be measured that way as well. After Adventism adopted the tithing principle, its success as a Gospel enterprise developed rapidly.

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#3 10-12-09 1:59 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

Don said:  Tom, thanks for the links. They provide a useful resource in the study of tithing. 

Tom said:  Ha!  I have never met an SDA Pastor that wants to really study tithe.  When they talk this way it is code for:  “after I am retired I will admit that it is wrong.”   

So Don what is there to study?  There is no such doctrine in the NT.  You know this.  It does not exist any more than the Sunday Sabbath, the IJ, or the Easter Bunny.  But yet the SDA’s teach otherwise.  They teach that tithing is a ”sacred” duty that we owe to God.

But it is neither sacred nor a duty.  Rather, it is a false doctrine that has been used by wolves in the church to control and fleece the sheep.  It is a religious scam that must be repudiated by all that follow the Word and embrace the Gospel.

Don said:  The NT certainly does not present tithing as an established doctrine. 

Tom said:  You are very correct.  Then why do the SDA’s teach that the apostolic church paid tithe?  Why do the SDA’s teach that tithe is Gods will for the church, when it is not taught as such in the NT?

Don said:  Early Adventists up to the mid-1870s did not practice tithing. The idea of giving a percentage or portion of one’s income was practiced a decade, or so, earlier.  The leaders referred to this practice as Systematic Benevolence, Sister Betsy, or just simply SB.  As I understand it, D. M. Canright first presented the Biblical reasons for formal tithing. 

Tom said:  You are correct to note that tithing is not a doctrinal pillar in the Three Angels Messages.  Miller did not tithe and neither the SDA’s until three decades after the 3rd Angels Message had been established.

For the SDA’s, tithe was nothing more than an innocent and naive attempt to fund the ministry.  It was never meant to become the greatest of all SDA doctrines.  The fact that it is now declared sacred and beyond question is absurd and very corrupt.

Tithing cannot be supported from the NT any more than the IJ.  Which means that they both have to go.  Why?  Because they are false doctrines.  Sorry.  That is the Adventist Way.

Don said:  If the Maker of the Universe presents an idea to a group of people, i.e. the Israelites, and if that idea remains practical over millenia, then, I see nothing wrong with taking the idea and implementing it in the Christian era. 

Tom said:  You are very wrong.  Many people think they can go to the OT and choose any point they fancy, and force it into NC theology.  This is how the RCC came up with their idea of robed Priests, and a high Priest, with a large Temple.  It is from the OT.  They too thought such things would be “practical” in the Christian era and thus the Papal system was born.   

But Christian doctrine is not built on anyone’s view of practicality, but on the teachings of the Apostles.  Period.  So there is no justification for a Pope, or a separate Priesthood or hierarchy, much less tithe to support such an OC model.  So both the RCC and SDA’s are wrong.  All Protestants must condemn them both.

Don said:  I would not present it as New Covenant obligation, but an effective plan, nonetheless. 

Tom said:  Why so eager to promote false doctrine in the church?  Even when you know that the apostles did not teach or practice tithe, you still want to defend what is false and wrong.  Why is that?

Does the Word mean that little to you?   

With such a view of doctrine, many things, like Sunday, are fine.  Thus “truth” becomes whatever this group or that group claims it to be from their perspective.  Such logic and behavior destroys the very concept of truth, as well as the reason why the Adventists came into existence.

How can false doctrine ever become an “effective plan” for the church?  This makes no sense.  Tithe is against the Gospel, and thus it harms and distorts the Gospel Story, even as it empowers a few to control the majority.  Thus the IJ is declared true and so too tithe, along with a hierarchy that persecutes those, like Dr. Ford, that stands up in protest.

Today, the SDA’s are at the place where they have most everything wrong, especially the Gospel and the Judgment, as well as the very fundamentals that define Adventism.  Pitiful.

Don said:  There are features of the tithing system, which cannot be easily brought forward such as its agricultural components. 

Tom said:  Ha!  This is too funny.  The SDA’s love to rummage around in the OT so that they can drag one doctrine after another into the Church.  This is also what the RCC has done as well.  Thus both the SDA’s and the RC’s have failed to separate the OC law from the NT Gospel.   

This is why the RC’s have a separate Priesthood, with a High Priest, who sits in a great Temple.  They are getting this from the OT.  And so too the SDA’s when they also pretend that their Pastors are like OT Priests, and that their Conference is the Temple “Storehouse.”

The Fundamentals of the Protestant Faith do not allow for a separate Priesthood, much less a tithe-based hierarchy.  No.  Everyone in the church is a Priest.  There cannot be different classes in the church, one group paying tithe to a priesthood, or to system of Pastors who are acting like priests and another one being paid. 

The change in PRIESTHOOD is so different in the New Covenant, that it is virtually impossible to have either a Priestly hierarchical system, or tithing in the church.  Both the RCC and the SDA’s have misunderstood the difference between the Old and New Covenants, which explains why they are so much alike in their thinking.   

While no one expects Rome to ever repent, the SDA’s are Protestant and thus they must follow the Word and repent as the PAJ demands.  They have the wrong Gospel, Judgment and hermeneutic.  They also have the wrong organizational system, and many other false doctrines, including tithe.

Don said:  There are secular business people who believe they should save a tithe of their income as a means of maintaining wealth. 

Tom said:  Who cares what secular people say?  It is only the teachings of the apostles that determine doctrine for the church.  The sooner the Adventists understand this concept, the better it will be for all concerned.

Besides, this nonsense about being blessed for paying tithe is nothing but Gentile propaganda for the gullible.  The Rich of this world do not pay tithe.  Nor does anyone get rich by tithe except for the SDA Denomination and perhaps the Mormons.   

And what do the SDA’s have to show for their many BILLIONS of tithe dollars?  A mismanaged and self-destructing empire where there are more members on the outside than inside.  They have an aging infrastructure and a bankrupt publishing empire, and things are only getting worse.  So the tithe has been a curse to them.  The Advent Movement is a wasteland.

Don said:  Not only can people be assessed by the fruit of their actions but ideas can be measured that way as well. After Adventism adopted the tithing principle, its success as a Gospel enterprise developed rapidly.

Tom said:  Tithe was adopted by the Battle Creek SDA’s about the same time that they had developed into great legalists.  At this time, they did not understand the law or the Gospel correctly, nor did they view the Two Covenants or the book of Galatians in the same way as Luther and the Protestants.

Tithe just re-enforced their false views about the law and the Gospel.  So this doctrine did not help, and neither did the IJ, which also became an articulated and featured doctrine during the same 1870’s time period.  Few know that BOTH tithe and the IJ were featured doctrines shortly before the 1888 debates hit the church.

At this point in history, the SDA’s did not understand things correctly.  They had in fact adopted some theology that was more RC than Protestant.  By the mid 1880’s, there would be great debate because E.J. Waggoner had discovered the teachings of Luther.  Thus he was convinced that the SDA’s had the WRONG view of the Two Covenants, as well as the book of Galatians.

The debate that Waggoner unleashed on the Domination was never properly understood or resolved.  Consequently within 15 years, the Battle Creek Empire would be in ruins, and the SDA’s would be forced to start all over again from Takoma Park.  Such was the fruit of their 19th century legalism.  Which was repeated in the 20th century with Dr. Ford playing the role of Waggoner at Glacier View.

The destruction of the Battle Creek Empire is the fruit of Old Covenant thinking, which featured the IJ and tithing, as well as a false view of Sabbath keeping and Sanctification.  Thus, false doctrines and legalistic ideas set the stage for a temporary success, which was quickly followed by debate, confusion, and then a great schism.  THIS is the real fruit of tithe in the SDA church; Division and disaster.

In fact, the man that developed tithe for the SDA’s is D. M. Canright.  He left the church shortly after his twisted invention to become its greatest critic and enemy.  Why would any SDA today want to protect or defend his warped interpretations?  Why would any SDA choose to believe D. M. Canright’s view of tithe over the teachings and practice of the Apostles? 

So Don, you have a choice to make.  Are you going to continue practicing the false doctrine of tithe?  Which is also connected to a false organizational system and even a false Gospel and false Judgment. 

Yes or No?

You have already admitted that tithe is not a NT doctrine.  But of course the SDA’s say otherwise and call it sacred.  They say the apostles do teach tithing for the church.  So how are you going to settle this issue? 

Will you continue to pay tithe, even though you know it is not a valid NT doctrine?  Or will you confess that it is false doctrine that must be repudiated?

In order for the SDA’s to move forward, they must repent of their many false doctrines, which includes tithing, even as they must re-organize into a Protestant form of church governance.

So Don, are you ready to repent for years of paying tithe?  Are you ready to stop practicing this false doctrine?

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Last edited by tom_norris (02-07-10 6:42 pm)

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#4 10-12-09 2:22 pm

don
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,121

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

"So Don, are you ready to repent for years of paying tithe? Are you ready to stop practicing this false doctrine?"

Don said:  Using the God-given idea of tithing is not a sin. Where in the Bible is it a sin to tithe?

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#5 10-12-09 7:15 pm

don
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,121

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

Economic Freedom in Christ

The Christianity I adhere to looks to Jesus as the liberator from all amoral regulations. He has done so without dismantling sound divine principles. Freedom in Christ means not only freedom from guilt but freedom from burdensome regulations. Jesus yoke is easy; his burden is light.

Some key economic principles supported by Jesus and the Apostles:

Apply your assets to the Gospel enterprise.

Seek God first and your personal economy will be OK.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … ersion=KJV

See Matthew 6:19-34

Seeking God involves putting His agenda of love and justice for all front and center. 

The Gospel incorporates the proverbial principles of diligence in business, etc. as it does the practical life principles found in the Hebrew Scriptures. 

The Gospel&#39;s economic agenda thrives on a cheerful heart. Of course, this is the key to all offerings of behavior. <LI>Justice, mercy and faith are more important than something like tithing, but Jesus endorsed careful tithing.

See http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … ersion=KJV

The Gospel does not need what belongs to Caesar. See http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … ersion=KJV


It is proper for Gospel Workers to "live off the Gospel" much like the priests did in the Hebrew economy. In fact, God has directed that this should happen. Paul put it this way:Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar?

14So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … rsion=NASB

It is also proper for Gospel Workers to live independently of the Gospel's corporate church economy.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … rsion=NASB

1 Corinthians 9:13-16

Money often gets in the way of the Gospel enterprise. Give it to the poor. You don't need money to follow Jesus without it.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … ersion=NIV

If you have a talent for making money, like http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … ersion=NIV


invest your talent in the Gospel enterprise. Eg. Our school needed a new gym. Several successful alumni donated over a million dollars and now our students, the community and the local churches have a facility useful to the Gospel enterprise.

Believers should view all their assets as part of the Gospel enterprise.

Like http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … rsion=NASB


Eg. In one area, a local Adventist doctor had a swimming pool at his place. He would open his home every Saturday evening for the young people and other church members to encourage a social atmosphere; bolstering the Gospel enterprise.

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#6 10-14-09 6:25 pm

billdljr
Member
From: San Diego, Ca
Registered: 02-13-09
Posts: 77
Website

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

The conference evangelist here in Southern California stated in a sermon to the Fallbrook SDA Church that If it were up to me, I would never baptize anyone who does not pledge himself to pay tithe to the SDA church. I heard him say this with my own ears. 

This is the real "sin" of the way tithing is taught in the SDA church. It is taught that not to pay tithe is to "rob God". Malachi 3 is used as a "proof text" to "prove" that New Testament Christians are still under the tithing, which was in force during the theocracy of Israel. It's a good thing that Paul specifically tells us that circumcision is not mandatory for Christians or else if the majority of SDA leadership had their way all the male baptismal candidates would have to endure this rite also!!

Don, using the words of our Lord to the Pharisees which commends their obedience to this tithing law does not mean that Christ was therefore setting down the same norm for the New Testament community. None of the apostles urged believers to tithe and they certainly did not say that to neglect to tithe was akin to "robbing God." Tithing was a law for the community of Israel because the entire civil legal system and its administration of civil and religious law was supported by the tithe of the community.

The sin of the SDA leadership is that they place needless guilt upon those members who do not tithe. It is neither a sin to tithe, nor a sin to tithe. God loves a cheerful giver, but God is NOT making demands like tithing upon us which if not fulfilled will place our salvation or church membership in jepardy. 

Just a year ago the local SDA pastor in north San Diego county would not baptize my wife because she refused to yeild to his teaching that tithing was a condition of membership into the SDA church. She also refused to accept the date of 1844 as the beginning of the High Priestly ministry of our Lord in the most holy place and also the writings and visions of E.G. White as being a "continuing authority" for SDA Christians.

So he stopped the Bible studies with her and we never heard from him again regarding her baptism. The last time we attended there he said in his Sabbath School class that those who question the Spirit of Prophecy always end up leaving the church. This was the last straw for us so we stopped attending his church and went to a small SDA church where the pastor is more of a New Testament oriented SDA. He preaches the blood of Christ every Sabbath and the forgiveness of sin every Sabbath. They even let me teach the bible class once in a while and my wife is set to be baptized when my membership is transferred there.


Bill Diehl, editor
Present Truth Magazine Online
www.PresentTruthMag.org

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#7 10-14-09 8:30 pm

elaine
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,391

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

Bill, it can't be said to often:  Jesus was teaching only to Jews.  As a good Jew he endorsed all the Jewish laws.  He didn't come to establish a new religion.

Only when pagans began joining the new movement that began at Pentecost, did it begin an integrated movement, no longer limited to Jewish followers.  As the gentile believers became a larger part of this new church, the problem of the Jews wanting to force the gentiles to first become Jews by practicing circumcision and all their practices.

Eventually, the new church became a gentile church.  This occurred ONLY because they were not forced to submit to circumcision and the dietary laws and rituals.  After the Temple was destroyed, there is no record of Jewish Christians and by the first century, it was a gentile Christian church.

There was never any instruction to the gentiles to begin to practice tithing, Sabbath, or Kosher. <BR>Adventists have attempted to re-introduce many Jewish laws but there is nothing in the entire NT to which they can refer showing that this should be done.  Only by going back to the Torah, do they find these Jewish laws to mandate them for Adventists.

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#8 10-15-09 2:50 am

don
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,121

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

The Church and Money


The SDA Church Manual addresses membership and money:

Members Not to Be Removed for Pecuniary Reasons

A member should never be removed from the church records on account of one’s inability or failure to render financial help to any of the causes of the church. Church membership rests primarily on a spiritual basis. It is the duty of every member to support the work of the church in a financial way to the extent of one’s ability, but an individual should never be deprived of membership simply through inability or failure to render financial help to any of the causes of the church. Church Manual, pages 198-199.

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/church … dition.pdf


First Corinthians 9

The New Testament does not present a Church Manual. It tells stories and presents letters from church leaders to the faithful. It remains the task of the church to interpret the canonical assertions for its own life. First Corinthians 9 certainly links the Old Testament practice of supporting the priesthood to the support of the Gospel Worker in the New Testament. To refuse to support a bonafide Gospel Worker can still be called robbery of God, IMO.

However, it is ill-advised for the organized church to make a big deal out of money and offerings. Jesus did not consider Caesar's pennies to be essential to His ministry.

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#9 10-15-09 11:24 am

billdljr
Member
From: San Diego, Ca
Registered: 02-13-09
Posts: 77
Website

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

Don,

Thank you for posting the quote from the SDA Church Manual. It is well written. Having said this I must still maintain that---in practice--- this is not the case. When I was at Andrews University there were SDA ministers and conference workers who were fired because they refused to allow the conference paymaster to withhold tithe from their paychecks. 

Also, in practice, tithing is regularly taught by the ministers and bible instructors as being a scripturally mandated practice for members and candidates for membership. Even if they may or may not require tithing as a condition of membership they still teach that to NOT tithe is a sin and is robbing God. Thus not to tithe is akin to breaking one of the Ten Commandments, namely, Thou shalt no steal. 

This is a terrible misuse of guilt motivation which is practiced denominationally world-wide. It is any wonder that thousands of good Christian people who are willing to change from Sunday-keepers to Sabbath-keepers turn away from the SDA church because of insistance by the denomination that they embrace not only tithing, but E.G. White as a "continuing authority," foot washing as a literal injunction for the believer, 1844 as a date for the entrance of Christ into the most holy place, and no jewelry wearing for women. 

Even when we started to fellowship at our present church, the head elder offered to buy me a suite and tie for me to wear to church. My wife on her first visit was openly, albeit indirectly, criticised in the Sabbath School class for having earing studs in her ears. 

So, I am able to overlook these cultic practices and still fellowship in the SDA church because I truly believe that the Lord raised up this movement to finish the Protestant Reformation. But just as Israel was dominated by Pharisees and Sadducees in Christ's day, so the SDA movement has a work of reformation to accomplish in its day. I would like to encourage some who participate in this forum to read Geoffrey Paxton book on the SDA movement,The Shakeing of Adventism

http://www.presenttruthmag.com/7dayadventist/shaking/


Thanks for this opportunity to express these views here.

Bill Diehl, SDA member


Bill Diehl, editor
Present Truth Magazine Online
www.PresentTruthMag.org

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#10 10-15-09 5:41 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

Trying to say tithing is a fraud, is so self defeating. Because of the 10% contribution, churches are more successful materially and possibly spiritually than those that don't suggest it to their constituents. 

I asked my accountant what the average secular/religious person contributes on average to charity/church. His answer, 3%. If we all contributed 3% to our favorite charity, they would be very healthy, bump it to 10% think of the possibilities in an economy like ours.

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#11 10-15-09 5:53 pm

elaine
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,391

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

Tithes, as well as offerings, should ALWAYS be voluntary.  See 2 Cor. 8:12-15:

As long as the readiness is there, a man is acceptable with whatever he can afford; never mind what is beyond his means.  This does not mean that to give relief to others you ought to make things difficult for yourselves.

This is seldom preached; it is always that not to tithe is to rob God.  Again, it is following the Old Testament, rather than the New.

Denominational employees are often required to tithe as a condition of employment; like union dues--yet union membership has frequently been warned against.

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#12 10-15-09 6:01 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

Elaine, tithing is a personal matter. You don't want the control of the church, don't work for them. I worked for a company once who had a nun for an exec that had a vow of poverty. Whatever she didn't need for subsistence went to her order. She voluntarily did this. So what's the problem????

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#13 10-15-09 8:33 pm

elaine
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,391

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

It's hard to consider it voluntary when you read stories above, and the well-known practice of the demand that denominational employees pay tithe or lose employment.  Very similar to the demand that all employees belong to a union.  This has been denounced by the church, in the past.

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#14 10-15-09 10:25 pm

bob
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 296

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

First of all it is not the pastor's or the church board's business whether or not the membership is paying the tithe. 

No one should know accept the treasurer.  My daughter's job was threatened because she chose to take part of her tithe and give it to the poor she knew needed help.  The school board found, somehow from the treasurer, she was not paying a full 10% to the church.

So much for credibility.  I guess because it isn't part of the big 10 it doesn't count.

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#15 10-15-09 11:03 pm

bob
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 296

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

Ellen on tithing.

"The tithe, unlike freewill offerings, is not controlled by the discretion of the one who gives."  {5BIO 391.7}

"The portion that God has reserved for Himself is not to be diverted to any other purpose than that which He has specified.  Let none feel at liberty to retain their tithe, to use according to their own judgment. They are not to use it for themselves in an emergency, nor to apply it as they see fit, even in what they may regard as the Lord's work.--9T, 247. {5BIO 391.8}

That is good for the flock, but as for the prophet, she was "shown" something else was OK for her.

"The Lord has shown me that the experience which your father and I have passed through in poverty and deprivation, in the early days of our work, has given to me a keen appreciation and sympathy for others who are passing through similar experiences of want and suffering. And where I see workers in this cause that have been true and loyal to the work, who are left to suffer, it is my duty to speak in their behalf. If this does not move the brethren to help them, then I must help them, even if I am obliged to use a portion of my tithe in doing so."  {5BIO 393.2}

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#16 10-15-09 11:10 pm

bob
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 296

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

A very plain, definite message has been given to me for our people. I am bidden to tell them that they are making a mistake in applying the tithe to various objects which, though good in themselves, are not the object to which the Lord has said that the tithe should be applied. Those who make this use of the tithe are departing from the Lord's arrangement. God will judge for these things. {CS 102.2}

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#17 10-15-09 11:48 pm

bob
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 296

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

Tom, You are telling the flock that it is not a requirement to tithe, yet the prophet is telling the flock that if they don't they will be cursed.  The Lord showed her all about tithing and how it is to be used. Who are you to debunk the tithe that is caring for the needs of all those who receive the benefits from the sacred system?  Who is correct, Tom or Ellen? 

Why are you going against the will of the prophet when she so adamant in her statements below??

"The Lord will not hold guiltless those who are deficient in doing the work that he requires at their hands,--in seeing that the church is kept wholesome and healthy spiritually, and doing all their duty; in allowing no neglect which will bring the threatened curse upon his people. A curse is pronounced upon all who withhold the tithe from God."  {PH166 20.3}

The command to pay tithe is so plain that there is no semblance of excuse for disregarding it. He who neglects to give instruction on this point, leaves undone a most important part of his work.  {CS 105.1}   

The Lord's messengers should see that His requirements are faithfully discharged by the members of the churches. God says that there should be meat in His house, and if the money in the treasury is tampered with, if it is regarded as right for individuals to make what use they please of the tithe, the Lord cannot bless. He cannot sustain those who think that they can do as they please with that which is His.--R. & H. Supplement, Dec. 1, 1896.  {CS 106.2}

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#18 10-16-09 5:38 am

george
Member
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 270

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

Bob Shields,

Tithing is part of the socio/religious system of the OT,  not even mentioned in the NT.  A better question would be, who is correct, Ellen or Christ, as Jesus told the one man to give away all his wealth and follow Him?  The widow was also mentioned as giving away her last penny, so it wasn't about having great wealth, but a willingness to give all one has and place one's trust in Christ rather than accumulated wealth. How often is that happening, tithe or no tithe. Each person is to decide what they will give.  The "storehouse" also has to handle the tithe responsibly.  That isn't happening either.

It's another one of those cases where you pull out something EGW said to prove your own bias or to make a point.  Do you do everything EGW said to do?

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#19 10-16-09 6:34 am

don
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,121

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

"It's another one of those cases where you pull out something EGW said to prove your own bias or to make a point. Do you do everything EGW said to do?

Sirje, Bob Shields can respond for himself. Meanwhile, I think you may have misread his purpose in posting the EGW quotes. He is not supporting EGW but rather pointing out to Tom the impossible stance Tom has taken. Tom is a strong supporter of EGW and a strong opponent of tithing as a Christian practice.

This post addresses one of Bob Shields quotes from EGW:

"The Lord has shown me that the experience which your father and I have passed through in poverty and deprivation, in the early days of our work, has given to me a keen appreciation and sympathy for others who are passing through similar experiences of want and suffering. And where I see workers in this cause that have been true and loyal to the work, who are left to suffer, it is my duty to speak in their behalf. If this does not move the brethren to help them, then I must help them, even if I am obliged to use a portion of my tithe in doing so." {5BIO 393.2

One of the lesser known roles which EGW took on was to be a supporter of the oppressed employees of the church. She used her magisterial status within Adventism to help employees who were being mistreated.

In her own words, this is how she viewed her mission:Letter To Elder O. A. Olsen, January 30, 1905 

We had a very pleasant journey from College View to Battle Creek. We were given a very hearty welcome by the friends in Battle Creek. . . .1MR 140.   

During my short stay in Battle Creek, I spoke five times, three times in the Tabernacle, once to the students in the Medical College, and once to the patients and helpers, in the Sanitarium. I had a message to bear, and the Spirit of the Lord seemed to impress those present. I know that God gave me strength to speak. On Sabbath there were about three thousand people present in the Tabernacle, and on Sunday about two thousand. 1MR 140.2

The meeting on Sunday afternoon was attended by many of the citizens of Battle Creek. They paid the best of attention. At this meeting I had opportunity to state decidedly that my views have not changed. The blessing of the Lord rested upon many of those who heard the words spoken. 1MR 140.3   

I understood that some were anxious to know if Mrs. White held the same views as she did years ago when they had heard her speak in the Sanitarium grove, in the Tabernacle, and at the camp meetings held in the suburbs of Battle Creek. I assured them that the message she bears today is the same that she has borne during the sixty years of her public ministry. She has the same service to do for the Master that was laid upon her in her girlhood. She receives lessons from the same Instructor. The directions given her are, Make known to others what I have revealed to you. Write out the messages that I give you, that the people may have them. This is what she has endeavored to do. 1MR 140.4

I have written many books, and they have been given a wide circulation. Of myself I could not have brought out the truths in these books, but the Lord has given me the help of His Holy Spirit. These books, giving the instruction that the Lord has given me during the past sixty years, contain light from heaven, and will bear the test of investigation. 1MR 140.5 

The question is sometimes raised, What if Mrs. White should die? I answer: The books that she has written will not die. They area living witness to what saith the Scriptures. . . . 1MR 141.1

During the discourse I said that I did not claim to be a prophetess. Some were surprised at this statement, and as much is being said in regard to it, I will make an explanation. Others have called me a prophetess, but I have never assumed that title. I have not felt that it was my duty to thus designate myself. Those who boldly assume that they are prophets in this our day are often a reproach to the cause of Christ. 1MR 1

My work includes much more than this name signifies. I regard myself as a messenger, entrusted by the Lord with messages for His people. . . . 1MR 141.3

The Lord gave me great light on health reform. In connection with my husband, I was to be a medical missionary worker. I was to set an example to the church by taking the sick to my home and caring for them. This I have done, myself giving the women and children most vigorous treatment. 

I was also to speak on the subject of Christian temperance, as the Lord's appointed messenger. I engaged heartily in this work, and spoke to large assemblies on temperance in its broadest and truest sense. 1MR 141.4

Urge Sanctification; The Practicing of the Truth   

I was instructed that I must ever urge upon these who profess to believe the truth, the necessity of practicing this truth. This means sanctification, and sanctification means the culture and training of every capability for the Lord's service. 1MR 141.5


I was charged not to neglect or pass by those who were being wronged. The Lord presented such cases before me, and disagreeable though the duty may be, I am to reprove the oppressor, and plead for justice. I am to present the necessity of maintaining justice and equity in all our institutions.

Letter 55, 1905, pp. 1-5. To Elder O.A. Olsen, January 30, 1905.

For variant reading, see Ms 140, 1905,pp. 1-3.1MR 141.

After my marriage I was instructed that I must show a special interest in motherless and fatherless children, taking some under my own charge, for a time, and then finding homes for them. Thus I would be giving others an example of what they could do. 1MR 139.2   

I have felt it my duty to bring before our people that for which those in every church should feel a responsibility. I have taken children from three to five years of age, and have educated them, and trained them for responsible positions. I have taken into my home from time to time boys from ten to sixteen years of age, giving them motherly care and a training for service. These boys have now grown to manhood, and some of them occupy positions of trust in our institutions. One was for many years head pressman in the Review and Herald publishing house. Another stood for years as foreman of the type department in the Review and Herald. . . . 1MR 139.3   

In Australia I carried on this same work, taking into my home orphan children, who were in danger of being exposed to temptations that might cause the loss of their souls. 1MR 139.4   

While we were in Australia we worked as medical missionaries in every sense of the word. At times I made my home in Cooranbong an asylum for the sick and afflicted. My secretary, who had received a training in the Battle Creek Sanitarium, stood by my side, and did the work of a missionary nurse. No charge was made for her services, and we won the confidence of the people by the interest that we manifested in the sick and suffering.

Letter 55, 1905, pp. 6, 7. To Elder O. A.Olsen, January 30, 1905. 1MR 139.

MR No. 37 - Statements for Fruitage of Spiritual Gifts     

Release requested by Elder L. H. Christian for use in his book, The Fruitage of the Prophetic gift. 1MR 139.

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#20 10-16-09 9:14 am

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

Bob Shields, you don't have to work inside the denomination or belong to it to be saved.

Like the nun taking the vow of poverty, what is wrong with a denomination having its own rules especially on the flip side the SDAs are being criticized about exorbitant salaries.

If they are mandated double tithe from that salary, both benefit.

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#21 10-16-09 9:28 am

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

Tithe and Tithe Again

Posted by Jordan J. Ballor  on Friday, September 22, 2006 

In a way, the Center for Social Innovation at Stanford recognizes a fact that Ron Sider has written on and I have thought about for a long time. In “A New Take on Tithing,” Claude Rosenberg & Tim Stone write:

Too often, individuals make decisions about how much money to donate to charitable causes on an ad hoc basis. As a result, many people give less money than they can actually afford. If the affluent contributed as much to nonprofits as the authors believe they can, charitable giving in the United States would increase by $100 billion a year – enough to solve many of the world’s most pressing problems.

Sider has previously written: “If American Christians simply gave a tithe rather than the current one-quarter of a tithe, there would be enough private Christian dollars to provide basic health care and education to all the poor of the earth. And we would still have an extra $60-70 billion left over for evangelism around the world.”

The Stanford estimate is about one-third higher than Sider’s estimate with regard to how much extra charitable income there might be if the tithe were rigorously implemented. Part of the difference might be due to the fact that there are somewhat different sets of people under examination. The Stanford estimate is primarily based on “the affluent,” while Sider is talking about “American Christians” in general clearly there is significant but not complete overlap.

But another aspect of the difference might in fact be the nuance of the Stanford piece’s analysis, and one of its key points: charitable giving should not be based simply on take home pay. Under what they call the “old tithe,” the following seems to be the case, “When people tithe, they typically base the amount they give on their income alone, not on their income and investment assets.”

Of course, assuming that at first the investment asset seed money was take home pay, the tithe would have already been applied to those funds. In essence, the “new tithe” is a double application of the tithe, the second time pertaining to profits earned with money to which the tithe had previously been applied.

Whether or not you think this sort of double tithe is appropriate, the Stanford piece does raise the important question of the responsible stewardship of investment profits. And while at first Sider’s estimate may seem more conservative than the Stanford estimate, if you take into account Sider’s endorsement of a graduated tithe, Sider’s model would end up being much more stringent in terms of its expectations the graduated tithe is the idea that as income increases, so should the percentage of giving increase, eventually to 100% above a certain threshold. 

Some may object that the new double tithe or the graduated tithe, or even the old tithe itself is too legalistic, too stringent, or both. To that I have two things to say.

First, let’s put the level of giving in perspective. Whether or not you think the tithe is a biblical requirement, it is valid as a consistent baseline measure. According to Barna’s research, “The proportion of households that tithe their income to their church – that is, give at least ten percent of their income to that ministry – has dropped by 62% in the past year, from 8% in 2001 to just 3% of adults during 2002.” In addition, “9% of born again Christians tithed their income to churches in 2004,” and “When contributions are examined as a percentage of household income, giving to religious centers represents about 2.2% of gross income.”

Second, even if you agree with Russell Earl Kelly, Ph.D., that the tithe is not a biblical requirement, it is a far more difficult case to make that the tithe is “unbiblical” or anti-Scriptural. The category of adiaphora would apply here, I think. So, for example, the assertion that the New Testament does not explicitly endorse or teach tithing does not necessarily mean that Christians cannot practice it or that it is “wrong” to tithe.

http://blog.acton.org/archives/1181-Tit … Again.html

Message edited by Bob_2 on October 16, 2009

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#22 10-16-09 9:31 am

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

The five churches I am pastoring are giving double tithes every first Sunday. 

The blessings from the double tithing have blessed my congregations immensely and they will be a blessing to you as well.   

http://www.refugetempledc.com/specialmessage.cfm

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#23 10-16-09 11:52 am

billdljr
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From: San Diego, Ca
Registered: 02-13-09
Posts: 77
Website

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

Very good dialogue on this topic so far.

I would like to add this thought to my post above so as not to have given the wrong impression as to how I feel about giving to support the propagation of the Christian faith in the world. My wife and I give much more than a tithe in our giving but we give this as a free-will offering not out of any law-based compunction. 

My objection is to mandated tithing as if it is a sin not to tithe. I read the Ellen White quotes which were posted above and I now realize that this is what the SDA denomination bases its mandated tithing upon.

The SDA ministers and administrators who are so emphatic about the imperative to tithe are using Ellen White's opinions as a continuing authority and a thus saith the Lord in order to justify their guilt motivation. They promote this view of tithing so much that any member of the denomination who does not tithe would be very much inclined to doubt his salvation if he did not tithe. This is the real sin of promoting tithing in this way. They erect barriers and heap burdens upon the SDA people which could and in most cases actually do cause them to doubt their acceptance with God if they don't tithe. 

I honestly believe that if any of the apostles, and especially the apostle Paul, were to view this situation in the SDA church they would be apoplectic with rage towards those imposing these barriers to God FREE grace in Christ. Woe unto those who dare to tamper with the gospel in this way.

Bill


Bill Diehl, editor
Present Truth Magazine Online
www.PresentTruthMag.org

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#24 10-16-09 2:23 pm

bob
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 296

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

Amen Bill, you saw in my posts just what I wanted to portray.

If we would really study the Old Covenant tithing system we would find that only a portion of the Israelites paid the tax.  Adventism and other religious organizations impose the tax on all their flock and tell them if they don't pay it they are less than... 

It is a sin to teach such heresy.  Mrs White got her wires crossed on the tithing issue.  She must have had several sources of information being fed into her visions.  She should have studied a lot more before she went off half cocked and said all that she did.

Thanks Don for setting the correct meaning of my post for Sirje. 

Tom has a big big problem with claiming that Mrs. White is a true prophet and then denying her prophesies on tithing and also her stand on the IJ. 

I await his response.

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#25 10-16-09 2:36 pm

bob
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 296

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

Bob Sands said:

Bob Shields, you don't have to work inside the denomination or belong to it to be saved. Like the nun taking the vow of poverty, what is wrong with a denomination having its own rules especially on the flip side the SDAs are being criticized about exorbitant salaries. If they are mandated double tithe from that salary, both benefit.

Bob, there is nothing wrong for an organization to set rules.  What is wrong is when such church organizations hinge those rules on the Bible when there is nothing there to hinge them on.  Then they tell their membership that they are sinning against God by not following rules, rules that cannot be substantiated.

I would like to know the number of folks that have left the church because of discouragement in not being able to give all that the church demands.  I personally know of many.  I was one that was discouraged, but before I left I studied the tithing system and found that the church is completely wrong.  I hung in there a few years longer and the list of error grew until it forced me to make a decision to move on.

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