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#1 01-13-09 1:56 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Ellen White

First off, let's understand that the "real" history of Ellen White is not in the public domain. So everyone needs to be very careful about any assumptions or conclusions they may have formed over the years. Propaganda, no matter how often repeated and published, can never become fact, much less doctrine for the church.

I have been in the White Estate, and have been studying this history for decades, and that is the only reason I understand what has taken place. This is why I can explain it. The fact of the matter is this: The Takoma Park apologists crafted a false version of Ellen White. They fabricated a fraud and marketed it to millions of trusting people.

Exhibit #1: The real Ellen White of Battle Creek had no doctrinal authority, nor were her writings allowed to be read from the pulpit or printed in the Sabbath School lessons. --But the White Estate took the opposite position.

Exhibit #2: The real Ellen White never believed or taught that the IJ was a fundamental Pillar in any of the Three Angels Messages. --But the White Estate said the opposite.

Exhibit #3: While Ellen White was a legalist, she repudiated her error and embraced Luther's Gospel during the 1888 debates, even as she tried to reform the Denomination to accept her view, which she declared was truth from Heaven. But the White Estate hid this debate, as well as her changed position, and promoted her pre- 1888 legalism.

So the real Ellen White is nothing like a Traditional Adventist. This idea that Ellen White would have supported the exile of Dr. Ford at Glacier View is impossible and absurd. The real Ellen White would have supported him, even as she would have repudiated the so-called fundamentals of Traditional Adventism.

The story that we have all come to know about Ellen White is a fraud. It was crafted and promoted by the White Estate. Most everything that they said about her was wrong and incorrect. The scope of this deception is stunning to behold, and it is only now just beginning to be exposed. So everyone must be very cautious about what they think about Ellen White until the record is corrected. The White Estate has not represented her honestly or correctly.

So don't be too hard on Ellen White or presume to know what she was all about. There are generations of myth and fabricated history associated with Ellen White that must be corrected before anyone can presume to know the facts or even understand the fundamentals of historic Seventh-day Adventism.

With this warning in mind, I will try to address your many questions about Ellen White.

Question 1. EGW's writings and testimonies seem to be unnaturally aligned with the beliefs and agendas of those who surrounded her (at least in the early years). As SDA's we have been taught that the pioneers always worked out the SDA theology through prayer and Bible study before EGW had corroborating visions. This seems to back up the claim that SDA theology is based on the Bible alone. However, she endorsed theological positions that I would judge to be unBiblical. It seems more plausible to me that her messages were not from God, but messages from subconscious of EGW…

Tom Norris said: Ellen White was a young Methodists Millerite who had spiritual gifts. She fell in love with Adventism and then with James White, an eligible and ambitious Millerite bachelor. Together, they both developed the SDA church, along with the older Joseph Bates.

But James was the one that really did the heavy lifting. He was far more important to the formation and development of the SDA church than was Ellen White or even Bates, but James could not have done it alone, he needed their influence and support. But without the brilliant mind of James White, Ellen White would be unknown and unpublished.

In fact, James White was in charge of Ellen White's writings. He did not let her publish one word without his editorial approval. So we have all been taught many myths by the White Estate that needs to be corrected.

Notwithstanding her subordination to James White, Ellen White really did have visions, as did others during that time period. And in spite of them, she also embraced false doctrines. This cannot be denied.

However, this situation is not uncommon in scripture as many assume. For example the Apostles had numerous gifts of the Spirit, but yet they all embraced false doctrine at the very same time. But they still had their gifts, and their place in the church.

For example: They thought that only the Jews cold be saved by Christ, and some of them, like Peter and James, later embraced the false Gospel of the Judaizers. But yet we still read the words of Peter and James, in spite of their errors. We do not deny that they had spiritual gifts because of their errors.

So this idea that having a spiritual gift makes a person infallible is very wrong. It is a fabrication from the White Estate. They should have known better, because this issue about Ellen White being wrong about doctrine came up very early in SDA history. In the 1850's, it was discovered that Ellen White had kept the Sabbath incorrectly for almost a decade. Even though she had a number of visions about the Sabbath.

How could this be? If she had visions, how could she be wrong?

To make matters more embarrassing, she learned of her doctrinal error from others who studied this point from the Bible. From those that had neither visions nor dreams.

Thus, J. N, Andrews became famous for proving to all that Ellen White, even with her spiritual gifts, did not have any doctrinal authority, much less infallibility. She could be wrong about doctrine, just like anyone else. And she was wrong about when the Sabbath began and ended. And so too were Bates and many others. Even as they were also wrong about other things as well.

But it did not matter to Ellen White's reputation because she was not viewed as having doctrinal authority in Battle Creek. Nor was she viewed as a scholar, like Smith or Andrews. It was the White Estate that fabricated this idea about a prophet must always be correct, and so forth. It is utter nonsense.

The Pioneers were not nearly as stupid as they have been portrayed. They do not support Traditional Takoma Park Adventism. It is the 20th century apologists that are the problem. They ignored and hid what they didn't like about Ellen White and invented what they wanted her to say. This is called fraud and propaganda, not honest history. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

Thus, Ellen White admitted, in front of the entire Battle Creek Church, that Andrews was correct. The facts changed her view. Why? Because all doctrine must be based on the Bible alone. Not on her visions. This was the correct Protestant position of the 19th century SDA's. Why did the White Estate fail to promote this part of church history? They knew all about it.

The youthful Andrews proved to all that the Visions of Ellen White were subordinate to the Bible, and that doctrine can only be established through the Bible-- alone. The visions of Ellen White, no matter how valid, have no doctrinal authority. This is what the Pioneers understood and taught. How dare Arthur White change the historical account and make it say the OPPOSITE? But this is what has taken place.

Question 2. The Millerite movement was clearly based on flimsy biblical scholarship and arrived at poor conclusions. Some of the baggage from that era have survived and tainted SDA beliefs to this day.

Tom Norris replied: Many misunderstand the Millerites. Their essential point was correct, even though their timing was not. In their day, everyone taught that the 1000 years of peace was about to start. At the end of that period, Jesus would come to bless the earth. There was no concept of a Judgment or the Second Coming, but there was much anticipation that the Millennium was about to start.

Many were primed for prophetic activity, even Miller. He too believed that prophecy was about to be fulfilled by the soon coming Millennium. But he made a significant change to the prevailing eschatology. He said Jesus would come at the beginning of the Millennium to Judge and Destroy the World. Not at the end. This changed everything.

As a result, Miller's more biblical view upended the prevailing view and injected a fear of the Judgment into religion that was impossible with postmillennialism. He was not only correct on this point, but every denomination has since revised their eschatology to follow Miller. There is not one church today that embraces postmillennialism.

Thus, Miller's basic theology became the eschatological platform for all denominations, even as his preaching was viewed by many to be the fulfillment of the 1st Angels Message in Rev 14. And it was on this prophetic point that the SDA's would go on to build the 3rd Angels Message, which featured the Sabbath.

So Miller and the Adventists have made an important and lasting contribution to Protestant eschatology. No one should think otherwise. Is the Advent Movement out of ideas? Will they make any more contributions to modern eschatology? This is the question?

Question 3. Despite EGW's claims of receiving direct revelations from God, her messages reflected a severely inadequate view of the Gospel until 1888. Prior to 1888, most of her messages embraced a conservative, legalistic, and grace-challenged perspective. Consequently, EGW had a lot to do with creating or re-enforcing the mind-set that was unreceptive to the the Gospel presented with such clarity in 1888…

Tom Norris said: The SDA mission was to promote the law and the Sabbath. Their work was to warn Laodicea about the error of Sunday Worship, which they viewed as the Mark of the Beast. Although they were fiercely Protestant, as were all Millerites, they soon became legalists, all of them, including Ellen White.

It happened over many years, the result of promoting the law and the Sabbath. Of course, this is why Waggoner enters church history and starts the 1888 debates. It was a reaction to the growing legalism that had developed over the years.

It was at this point that Ellen White understood that the church had indeed fallen into legalism, and she did everything in her power to correct the SDA's distorted view of the law and the Gospel. So she gets high marks for doing the right thing. Uriah Smith by comparison, never changed his legalistic view, nor did he ever approve of Ellen White's post 1888 view of the Gospel.

But the problem with legalism was nothing new in the church. The apostolic church did the very same thing. Peter and James were so obsessed with the law, including the Sabbath, that they fell into legalism. This is what the book of Galatians is all about. So we can't be too hard on the SDA's for doing what the Jews did, and what the apostles also did, and what the Gentile church went on to do. The RCC is the greatest of all legalistic denominations.

The fact that the Battle Creek SDA's fell into legalism in no way disqualifies their mission, or changes the areas where they were correct. Nor does it remove Ellen White's spiritual gifts; much less erase the mammoth amount of writings that she left behind for us to understand.

Everyone makes mistakes, whether they have spiritual gifts or not. The real problem here is that the White Estate has not been honest about church history or Ellen White's views, or authority. They tried to pretend that Ellen White was always correct; and that her predictions had to come true, etc. But this is fiction. It is myth making. Few understand how Ellen White was really viewed by her contemporaries. The truth is very different from how the White Estate promotes her.

Understand that Ellen White was not a theologian or scholar. Nor was she a cult leader giving directions to her followers. Her husband was far more important then she ever was. He was the leader and the brain behind this successful denomination. In fact, he was her publisher and agent, and she wrote nothing without his editorial guidance and approval.

So once again, the White Estate has taught us all wrong by pretending that she was in control of Adventism. She stood next to the man in control, and thus she herself was a product of James White more than anything else. But he ran the show; not her.

Question: The pioneers, with participation and blessing of EGW, always tried to portray their experience as a steady building of truth upon truth. This appears to me to be a prideful distortion of the true experience.

Tom Norris said: The Pioneers viewed the Advent Movement as fulfilling the prophecy in Rev 14, referred to as the Three Angels Messages. Thus they were careful to build upon these chorological and connected Messages. So it was not about pride, but about eschatology. They were trying to work out the details of modern eschatology.

Later on, in the 20th century, the leaders would drop any pretense of trying to figure out eschatology. They would resort to spinning myths and manipulating history for their own ends. But this type of behavior has no support from the Pioneers.

Question 4. EGW seems to have been guilty of a jealousy for her own authority, sometimes as God's messenger unjustly rebuking those she perceived as a challenge to her authority. This is of course an extremely natural human weakness. But, she never seems to have publicly acknowledged this kind of weakness. The lack of any public confession of such a weakness made it possible for the White Estate to exaggerate her authority in later years. Had she been more honest about the way her own flaws effected her messages, it would have been difficult for the White Estate to have so thoroughly distorted her public image. Once again EGW's shortfalls served to enable self-serving spiritual leadership.

Tom Norris replied: As mentioned previously, Ellen White had to admit in front of the entire Battle Creek church, and all the SDA's, that she had the wrong view of the Sabbath for 9 years. Few know about this account and thus they think she never admitted any error. But this is not true.

This is why J N Andrews became famous. He proved to all that Ellen White's visions do not have any doctrinal authority. This was the true position of the Founders anyway, so James White was glad that Andrews found this error, which Ellen White acknowledged. So this was a big deal in Battle Creek. But it was suppressed in Takoma Park. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

So everyone in Battle Creek knew better than to think that Ellen White's visions gave her doctrinal authority or infallibility. But those in Takoma Park were taught a fabricated and historically wrong view about Ellen White. Arthur White has so distorted church history and Ellen White's own personal views that it is criminal. No one should trust the White Estate.

Listen to Ellen White make it clear that only the Bible can support doctrine, and that she is not infallible.

"But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms."  The Great Controversy, p. 595.

"The words of the Bible, and the Bible alone, should be heard from the pulpit." Prophets and Kings, p. 626

"In regard to infallibility, I never claimed it; God alone is infallible. His word is true, and in Him is no variableness, or shadow of turning." [Selected Messages Book 1, p. 37]

Had the White Estate honestly explained what happened in Battle Creek, there would be no problem. But at this point, the real history about Ellen White has yet to be told.

Question 5. The uncredited sources EGW used in her writing may have been less of a shock had her authority and legacy not been exaggerated by the White Estate, but it is abundantly clear that the nature of her work and the inspiration behind it were misrepresented long before the White Estate existed. Perhaps she was oblivious to the implications of her borrowing, but I cannot believe she was totally innocent of all duplicity in the way her writings were packaged and presented to her unsuspecting and trusting readers. I believe she intentionally concealed her dependence on other sources and did so despite the objections of some of those around her.

Tom Norris said: Forget this plagiarism claim. It is a diversion. The unique doctrines and eschatology of the SDA church did not exist anywhere else, so how could Ellen White be guilty of plagiarizing it? The essence of what the Pioneers were saying about the 3rd Angels Message did not come from outside sources. While they built on the Millerite theology and history, they developed their own unique blend of eschatology that was different from all others.

So forget this diversion that was blown way out of proportion by Walter Rea. There is no story here, except that the White Estate was never honest about how the Pioneers made their books. If anyone is at fault it is James White, he was Ellen White's publisher.

The fact that there was some shoddy editing and footnoting in some of Ellen White's books is totally beside any worthwhile point or issue. Neither the mission, history, nor theology of the SDA church is based on plagiarism, and it is absurd to think such a thing.

Question 6. EGW stood by while dedicated workers were drummed out of the SDA church because they would not embrace umBilical theological positions…

Tom Norris replied: The Kellogg crisis has not been correctly told. But the facts are known. Kellogg was trying to take over the Denomination and turn it into a humanitarian enterprise that had no need for the Three Angels Messages. But Ellen White would never let this happen.

Those that sided with Kellogg became an enemy of Ellen White because this is what her lifework was all about; the defense and promotion of the Three Angels Messages.

This is also why she recommended that the church retreat from Battle Creek and move to Takoma Park. She was trying to save the eschatology of the church.

But guess what? Once in Takoma Park, the church became confused and disoriented about their history and doctrine. So much so that they soon misunderstood the very fundamentals that Ellen White wanted to protect. Thus, a false view of the Three Angels Messages emerged, complete with the same kind of legalism that destroyed the Battle Creek SDA's.

Listen to Ellen White:

The first, second, and third angels messages are all linked together. The evidences of the abiding, ever-living truth of these grand messages, that mean so much to us, that have awakened such intense opposition from the religious world, cannot be extinguished.

Satan is constantly seeking to cast his hellish shadow about these messages, so that the remnant people of God shall not clearly discern their import, their time, and place; but they live, and are to exert their power upon our religious experience while time shall last.

The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, page 926, paragraph 3.

This is why Dr. Ford, like Dr. Waggoner in the 19th century, stepped forward and protested the false views of the church leaders. In hindsight, we know that Dr. Ford was correct. His articulation of the Three Angels Messages had the full support of Ellen White. The White Estate had perpetrated a massive hoax on the Adventist people, and Glacier View was a monument to this outrageous and dishonest fraud.

The truth must be told about Ellen White. The White Estate must be forced to tell the truth and correct the record.

Question: EGW described her own work as more than that of a prophet. It appears a substantial number of SDAs believed her to be a prophet of OT proportions long before there was a White Estate. It might be debated exactly how she perceived her role and authority, but her own words surely enabled her proponents to use her authority in their theological battles.

Tom Norris said: Ellen White was a co-Founder of the SDA church. Thus she has the status of a founder and permanent board member. Which is much higher than others.

So this is the real source of her authority in the Community. She was also married to the most important Founder, and that gave her even more power and authority.

While some SDA's, in the late 19th century, did embrace a very twisted and wrong view of Ellen White, the Founders, as well as Andrews, and Uriah Smith got it right. They all knew that she had zero doctrinal authority. But over the years, as these informed ones died, so too did their correct views.

But Ellen White made it clear to any that wanted to elevate her, that her writings could not be used from the Pulpit or in the Sabbath School lessons. After she died, the Takoma Park apologists changed the rules and revised history. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

Many from among our own people are writing to me, asking with earnest determination the privilege of using my writings to give force to certain subjects that they wish to present to the people in such a way as to leave a deep impression upon them. It is true that there is a reason why some of their matters should be presented; but I would not venture to give my approval in using the Testimonies in this way, or to sanction the placing of matter which is good in itself in the way which they propose.

[Ellen White to Brother Littlejohn, Aug 3, 1894]

Question 7. SDA theology has evolved and matured, but is still fractured by flaws and problems from 150 years ago. EGW's writings implicitly and explicitly support many of the flaws and problems. Despite some Gospel oriented reform materials produced in the later years of her life EGW has been used to preserve the fractured theology.

Tom Norris said: Ellen White has stated many times that the SDA's are like the stubborn Jews. Over and over she tried to point out doctrinal errors, especially after 1888, but the leaders, like Uriah Smith, would not listen.

Listen to the real Ellen White try and push the church forward and correct their many false doctrines:

Investigation of Doctrine:

There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation…

The Lord designs that our opinions shall be put to the test, that we may see the necessity of closely examining the living oracles to see whether or not we are in the faith. Many who claim to believe the truth have settled down at their ease, saying, I am rich, and increase with goods, and have need of nothing.

How to Search the Scriptures:

How shall we search the Scriptures? Shall we drive our stakes of doctrine one after another, and then try to make all Scripture meet our established opinions? or shall we take our ideas and views to the Scriptures, and measure our theories on every side by the Scriptures of truth? Many who read and even teach the Bible, do not comprehend the precious truth they are teaching or studying.

Men entertain errors, when the truth is clearly marked out; and if they would but bring their doctrines to the word of God, and not read the word of God in the light of their doctrines, to prove their ideas right, they would not walk in darkness and blindness, or cherish error. Many give the words of Scripture a meaning that suits their own opinions, and they mislead themselves and deceive others by their misinterpretations of God's word.

As we take up the study of God's word, we should do so with humble hearts. All selfishness, all love of originality, should be laid aside. Long-cherished opinions must not be regarded as infallible. It was the unwillingness of the Jews to give up their long-established traditions that proved their ruin. They were determined not to see any flaw in their own opinions or in their expositions of the Scriptures; but however long men may have entertained certain views, if they are not clearly sustained by the written word, they should be discarded. Those who sincerely desire truth will not be reluctant to lay open their positions for investigation and criticism, and will not be annoyed if their opinions and ideas are crossed. This was the spirit cherished among us forty years ago. . . .

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. As long as we hold to our own ideas and opinions with determined persistency, we cannot have the unity for which Christ prayed.

Counsels to Writers and Editors, pages 33-42

This is the real Ellen White. And she is talking to SDA's about SDA doctrine. She is saying that they have much error, and need to find more truth.

So Ellen White was well aware that there were all kinds of problems with SDA theology. That is why she tried to promote reform and re-organization when she returned from exile in Australia. That is also why she agreed with those that wanted to fire Uriah Smith from the Review.

When the real story of Ellen White is published, all will have a better understanding about these things. The White Estate should be ashamed of themselves for how they have promoted Ellen White, it is all-wrong. The White Estate is a den of iniquity and corruption. They are the problem, not Ellen White.

The real Ellen White is a great proponent of the search for truth. At the end of her life, it was her position that SDA's had many errors to correct, and many new truths to understand.

Listen to Ellen White on this point:

Sister White, do you think that the Lord has any new and increased light for us as a people? I answered, Most assuredly. I do not only think so, but can speak understandingly. I know that there is precious truth to be unfolded to us if we are the people that are to stand in the day of God's preparation,

See 3 SM 174.

Question: If EGW had herself been clear about the limits of her authority or honest about some the theological errors endorse in her writings, then traditional SDAism could not have survived to high-jack the church in the 20th and 21st century. If EGW has a prophetic role in the SDA movement then it seems reasonable to view the current crisis as part of the EGW legacy?

Tom Norris replied:  Ellen White was very clear about her authority and church doctrine.  But the White Estate has not been honest or clear about anything. This is the problem. Until the record is corrected, there is little use in complaining about a fabricated and distorted view of Ellen White. The White Estate is going to have to confess what they have done and tell the true story about Ellen White and church history.

In conclusion; here are some major points about Ellen White that all SDA's have wrong.

1. Neither Ellen White, nor any of the Pioneers, thought that she had doctrinal authority.

The fact that everyone thinks otherwise is due to the incompetence, dishonesty, and propaganda of the White Estate. They were teaching myths of their own making.

2. Neither Ellen White, nor any of the Pioneers, ever taught that the IJ was the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message. This NEVER HAPPENED. It is pure myth.

The fact that everyone thinks otherwise is due to the White Estate and the Review. They have confused everyone with their suppression and fabrications, even themselves. Which is why they refuse to address these issues.

3. After 1888, Ellen White repudiated character perfection and embraced the Protestant Gospel of Luther that Waggoner was promoting. What a pity that the White Estate hid this fact from the church and claimed that she did teach Santification as part of the Gospel. This fraud cannot stand.

Here are three major errors about Ellen White that must be corrected. There are many more. But these three alone overturn most everything that the church has been teaching for generations. If Ellen White were alive today, she would condemn the White Estate for what they have done, even as she would demand a full confession and the correction of the record.

This is the only hope for the Advent Movement. They have to tell the truth about what Arthur White has done and correct the record.

I hope this has been helpful.

I suggest that you search through the discussions at the Atomorrow.com archives and study up on these issues.

You can also go to:  http://www.Atomorrow.net


Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform

Last edited by tom_norris (03-20-10 11:28 am)

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#2 01-13-09 5:05 pm

cadge
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 288

Re: Ellen White

"Many from among our own people are writing to me, asking with earnest determination the privilege of using my writings to give force to certain subjects that they wish to present to the people in such a way as to leave a deep impression upon them. It is true that there is a reason why some of their matters should be presented; but I would not venture to give my approval in using the Testimonies in this way, or to sanction the placing of matter which is good in itself in the way which they propose." [Ellen White to Brother Littlejohn, Aug 3, 1894] 

Whether from the pulpit or from home in ones rocking chair by the fireside, what she wrote was indeed meant to make a deep impression.

How else could you take them?

She did claim that she was "more than a prophet."

She did claim that "In ancient times God spoke through the mouths of prophets and apostles. In these days He speaks to them by the Testimonies of his Spirit." Vol.4, pg.148; Vol.5, pg.661

That's the Spirit of Prophecy, the Testimonies; her writings,ie.

More doubletalk!

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#3 01-13-09 6:17 pm

don
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,121

Re: Ellen White

cadge wrote:

More doubletalk!

When my friends seem to contradict themselves, I seek clarification...
When my enemies contradict themselves, they are guilty of doubletalk.

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#4 02-13-09 7:32 pm

billdljr
Member
From: San Diego, Ca
Registered: 02-13-09
Posts: 77
Website

Re: Ellen White

Continuing Authority???

The Seventh-day Adventist movement will never be taken seriously as a reform movement by the Christian community at large until it stops using the writings of Ellen G. White as a "continuing and authoritative source of truth" in matters of faith and doctrine. Despite all the many official denials that belief in her writings are a test of fellowship, the fact is that Number Eighteen in the list of the "fundamental beliefs" of the Adventist denomination state that "As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction."

There is absolutely no way to harmonize this official statement of belief with the universally accepted Protestant position of "Sola Scriptura". To describe Ellen White's writings as being "a continuing and authoritative source of truth" for "instruction and correction" is to place her writings directly on an equal par with the Bible. The Bible alone is to be the Christian's source of "authority" in matters of faith and doctrine. There can never be two sources of "authority" for the Christian.

The idea that "this gift (the "Spirit of Prophecy") is an identifying mark of the remnant church" cannot be deduced from the bible without seriously distorting the text and meaning of the bible. To use Revelation 19:10 "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" as proof that the Seventh-day Adventist movement can call Ellen White's visions the "spirit of prophecy" and an "identifying mark" of the "remnant church" is a preposterous misuse of the bible. The term "remnant" is used by the apostles in the New Testament to describe the Christian church in general and it is the height of hermeneutic ignorance to imply that it especially describes the Adventist movement since 1844 in particular.

This misuse of the writings of Ellen G. White has proven to be a "law of unintended consequences" for the Adventist movement. The very blessing that God intended for the movement has been turned into a curse with far-reaching adverse consequences for the movement. Thousands of former Adventists have turned away from this blessed movement by the ridiculously cultic traditional teachers who now dominate the movement today.

The recent Sabbath School Quarterly which attempts to defend the "all or nothing" position in regard to Ellen White is totally misleading and will prove to be disastrous to the movement, worse than the pantheism crisis and perfectionism crisis of the past. Our Enemy is jubilant when he sees these fanatical extremists take over the control of the denomination. He knows that as long as he can keep the majority of Adventists in the clutches of cultism and perfectionism he will delay the fulfillment God's purpose in raising up the Adventist movement.

It is only after this movement truly, unambiguously, and fully embraces Sola Scriptura that we can move forward to fulfill the high calling of finishing the Protestant Reformation. This will involve a total abandonment of the present form of the "28 fundamental teachings".

Adventism must:

1. Reject all forms of date-setting such as 2,300 years from 457 BC. to AD.1844 for the beginning of Christ's ministry in the most holy place, 1260 years from AD. 538 to 1798 as a fulfillment of the 1260 days of Daniel and Revelation, the Lisbon earthquake in 1755, the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

2. Stop teaching that tithe paying is binding upon Christians and is a mandatory condition of membership and baptism.

3. Stop teaching that wine in the bible was merely grape juice.

4. Stop teaching that the Levitical food laws are still binding upon the Christian church and that vegetarianism is God's ideal diet.

5. Stop teaching that Christ was literally telling us to wash one another's feet prior to observing the Lord's Supper.

6. Stop teaching a future "close of probation" for the people of God after which there will no longer be a Mediator to plead for them.

7. Stop teaching sinless perfectionism in all of its forms and variations.

8. Stop teaching that God's justification of sinners is an "experience" rather than by faith alone, in Christ's sinless life and atoning death alone, by God's unmerited grace alone, as revealed in the bible alone.

9. Stop teaching that "original sin" is a false doctrine and is an erroneous teaching invented by the Papacy.

10. Stop teaching that the bible condemns the wearing of jewelry.

11. Stop teaching that Christ had a sinful human nature.

12 Stop teaching that the "final generation" can be called a special group of Christians known as the "144,000" and that before Christ comes again they will be without any sin and will perfectly reflect the image of sinless Jesus Christ in character.

13. Stop teaching that the bible infers that there are unfallen inhabitants in unfallen worlds watching the events of history.

14. Stop confusing and commingling justification with sanctification.

15. Stop teaching that we are saved by imitating the life of Christ.

16. Stop teaching the moral influence theory of the atonement which Maxwell and the Loma Linda School of Dentistry have been advocating for 40 years.

17. Stop allowing the teaching of theistic evolution which attempts to allegorize or mythologize the first eleven chapters of Genesis

These reforms are absolutely necessary in order for a true revival of primitive godliness to take place among the advent people. Then and only then will the people of God in other folds begin to take the Seventh-day Adventist denomination seriously and join this God-ordained movement to restore the bible and only the bible as the rule of faith


Bill Diehl, editor
Present Truth Magazine Online
www.PresentTruthMag.org

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#5 02-13-09 8:20 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: Ellen White

Bill, I have felt since 1980 that EGW should be considered devotional. I feel that it is holding our church back also, when I go to a funeral of a Pastor's wife and more EGW is quoted than scripture, I was shocked and embarassed.

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#6 02-14-09 11:21 am

billdljr
Member
From: San Diego, Ca
Registered: 02-13-09
Posts: 77
Website

Re: Ellen White

Before we continue on in this line of discussion I want to repost the post I made on the last day of the now defunct other forum. Then we can continue this important discussion which is so vital for the future of the advent movement.----

I have been an SDA for over 40 years now and I guess that I have read about just as much of the writings of Ellen White as anyone has and I must admit that I am very saddened and deeply dissappointed by the new Sabbath School Quarterly for January 2009. The author is attempting to convince the world-wide SDA church that Mrs. White is as much of a "prophet" as any of the Bible prophets and that the writings of Mrs. White should be considered to be as equally "inspired" as the Bible. Then in order to avoid the criticism that Adventists make her equal to the Bible, the author says that even though her writings are as equally "inspired" as the Bible, she is not to be considered as equally "authoritative" as the Bible even though he states that she is "authoritative".

This type of reasoning is absolutely ridiculous. Ellen G. White never claimed to be equal to the Bible either in her inspiration or in her authority. She herself stated that "we have many things to learn and many, many things to unlearn." She declared that her writings were the lesser light leading to the greater light, the Bible.

The early writings of Ellen White were in error doctrinally in many areas. Especially in the area of soteriology. It was only after 1888 that she realized how legalistic the Advent movemtent had been since its inception in 1844. Law-keeping, prophecy, sanctification, and perfectionism were the basic emphasis of nearly every Adventist author up to the time of 1888. Even when justification was dealt with, it was only considered as being a covering for the sins of the past. Sanctification was considered the basis of our acceptance with God in the present and especially in the future at the second coming. This error permeated the entire Advent movement.

It was not until Jones and Waggoner that the full meaning and significance of justification by God's unmerited grace alone through faith alone in the sinless life and atoning death of Christ alone as revealed the the Bible alone began to dawn upon the movement. That is why there was so much objection to their teaching that the law in Galations included both the moral and ceremonial law as being unable to provide justification before God.

The repentant believer in Christ is saved by grace through faith in the "imputed" rightesousness of Christ both now and even unto the Day of Christ at His second coming. The idea that the believers will be "without a mediator" at some time after the "loud cry" is given cannot be found in the word of God. The believer will need the forgiveness of sins at the second coming of Christ just as much as he needs the forgiveness of sins now in his daily walk with the Lord. Christ alone is our righteousness, because He alone is the sinless One. We can copy the pattern but we will never equal it!!

This basic astounding truth of the Gospel was seen by the leaders of the SDA movement as destructive of all of the so-called "pillars" of Adventism. They saw that the implications of this "new light" negated the teaching that our Lord literally entered the "Most Holy Place" in 1844 as our high priest. They believed that the "second appartment" ministry of Christ is what would give the "final generation" perfection of character so that they could stand before that glory of the Second Coming of our Lord. That is why they believed that the so-called "blotting out of sins" was different from the "mere" forgiveness of sins.

The traditional view of the "Investigative Judgment" is absolutely destroyed by the apostolic gospel of the Bible. Faith in the blood of Christ shed at Calvary is what brings the "seal of God" not the keeping of the seventh day Sabbath.

Ellen White after 1888 was able to see how the early perfectionism and the legalistic approach to the Sabbath by the pre-1888 movement was totally lacking in its ability to bring the gift of the Holy Spirit to the dying Advent movement.
The light of the gospel was breaking up all of the dead legalism of Adventism. This light was to be the beginning of the light that was to lighten the whole earth with its glory. Adventism was now prepared to not only restore the truth of the keeping of all of the commandments of God, but it was now also prepared to proclaim that God Himself in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ has provided a perfect rightesousness to meet all the demands of God's law for perfect righteousness. The repentant sinner who looks to Calvary and believes in Christ as his Savior and Lord is reckoned to be sinless and righteous in the eyes of the law of God. He is declared to be "dead to the law" and to be a son of the living God and worthy to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit never adds to the believer's justifiction. Rather the Spirit continually reveals to the believer his ongoing need of the imputed righteousness of Christ as he grows up in Christ and begins to reveal the fruits of the the Spirit in his life. The gospel thus "begins in faith and ends in faith". Justification is as much needed at the coming of Christ as it is needed when one first believes.

Ellen White was a child of the Advent movement. The Lord lead her and the Advent movement out of the wilderness of legalism and into the glory of the everlasting gospel. The Bible on the other hand is the everlasting word of God. By the Lord's providential leading, Mrs. White matured and grew with the advancement of the gospel light and her understanding of the inerrantly inspired and inerrantly authoritative word of God. To repeat her own words, Mrs. White had many things to learn and many, many things to unlearn. The same can never be said of the authority and inspiration of the Bible. It is the complete and totally authoritative truth of God. If she were to read the new Sabbath School Quarterly for 2009 she would absolutely repudiate it as a devistatingly false portrayal of her life and ministry.
Bill Diehl


Bill Diehl, editor
Present Truth Magazine Online
www.PresentTruthMag.org

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#7 02-14-09 11:25 am

bob
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 296

Re: Ellen White

Why would you use the writings of Ellen as devotional knowing full well that they are full of error. I think you are appeasing the brethren with that rhetoric. Just admit that Ellen and James were farces and so is Tom Norris' evaluation of what Ellen really was.

The 19th Century was full of religious deceivers that thrived on falsehood. Ellen was no exception. The old saying that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear fits everyone of the false prophets of that century.

The 20th Century was full of deceives too. They came out of the woodwork and included the following: ...Benny Hinn, T.D. Jakes, Robert Schuller, Marilyn Hickey, Paul & Jan Crouch, Rod Parsley, R.W. Shambach, Carlton Pearson, John Avanzinni, Kenneth & Gloria Copeland, John Hagee, Jessie Duplantis, Oral Roberts, Richard Roberts, Kent Hovind, Kenneth Hagin Sr. & Jr., Mark Charonna, Frederick Price, Creflo Dollar, Rodney Howard Browne, Jack Van Impe, Rinehard Bonnke, Texx Marrs, Joyce Meyer, Morris Cerello, John Kilpatrick, Clarence McClendon, Rick Joyner, Hal Lindsey, Charles Capps, Robert Tilton.

What will the 21st Century bring? I am sure there will be some who will dream up scams to take our hard earned money. Some have survived and continue to plague society. 2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Today, there is no excuse for anyone to follow any of these cults. We all have enough proof of their falsehoods to make sane conclusions. Sadly there will always be some who ignore the obvious and drink the koolade.

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#8 02-14-09 1:00 pm

bob
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 296

Re: Ellen White

Bill said:
"She declared that her writings were the lesser light leading to the greater light, the Bible."

The "lesser light" was full of distortions, actusations, condemnations, legalism, Biblical stories that have been proven to be in error, and just plain falsehood. Why would anyone use this "light" to search for the Greater Light? Think about it.

Even you admitted: "The early writings of Ellen White were in error doctrinally in many areas. Especially in the area of soteriology."

To use her writings to lead me to Jesus would be committing salvational hara-kiri

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#9 02-14-09 1:33 pm

billdljr
Member
From: San Diego, Ca
Registered: 02-13-09
Posts: 77
Website

Re: Ellen White

Seventh-day Adventism is not a cult. There are cultic Seventh-day Adventists, but the essence of the Adventist movement is true historic Protestant Christianity.

The Adventist movement in its truest evangelical expression as God intends this movement to be will be a "restoration" movement rather than an "innovation" movement. Just look at the true essence of Adventism.

Adventism uplifts the "Third Use of the Law" which is so important in this lawless diabolical age in which we live.

Adventism uplifts the "Second Use of the Law" which is so important as a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ to continually be justified by faith in His sinless life and atoning death on Calvary.

Adventism re-establishes the glorious truth of the resurrection of the dead at the Second Coming of Christ as the hope of the believer rather than the Grecian view of the "immortal soul" which lives on after death.

Adventism affirms the virgin birth of Christ and His unique incarnation as fully God and fully man.

Adventism is a necessary bulwark against the prevailing error of antinomian Dispensationalism which is sweeping the evangelical Christian world today and foolishly focuses on the Zionist events in the middle east, a rebuilding of the Levitical temple, and a "secrete rapture" of the church.

Adventism uplifts and restores the Sabbath commandment as a memorial to Christ's having created the universe in six literal days. The Sabbath is God's emphatic rebuke to the abomination of Darwinian evolutionism.

Adventism affirms the Biblical truth of the fall of man in the Garden of Eden as the origin of sin and suffering and death. This truth is denied by all forms of Darwinism.

Adventism affirms the existence of a real fallen angel named Lucifer who became Satan along with one third of the angelic host.

Adventism affirms a literal world-wide flood which destroyed the lawless unbelieving antediluvian world and the saving of Noah and his family by God's unmerited grace.

Adventism affirms that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Seed of the woman who has fulfilled all the righteous demands of the Law for us so that in Him we are accounted sinless and righteous in His sight even unto the coming of the Lord.

Adventism is a warning and a witness that God is about to destroy all the world and all who refuse to repent, believe the gospel of Christ, and allow God to write His law upon their hearts through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Adventism affirms that God will totally annihilate sin, Satan, and all unrepentant sinners at the final judgment rather than an eternally burning fire in unending pain and suffering.

Adventism as a true child of the Reformation and is an ongoing rebuke to the abominable errors of Roman Catholicism.

Adventism is a rebuke to modern day Spiritualism.

In essence then, Adventism as God intends it to be, is God's final warning to all the world to repent and be justified by His unmerited grace “alone” through faith “alone” in the sinless life and atoning death of Christ “alone” as revealed in the Bible “alone”.

This is the essence of true Adventism which Ellen G. White intended for the movement to be. Her vision was for Adventism to be the foremost voice in all the world to uplift the sinless, crucified, and risen Savior to all the world. She never intended her writings to become so prominent in the Advent Movement as they are today as the “twenty eight fundamentals” and the recent Sabbath School Quarterly portray her writings to be. It is time for the Seventh-day Adventist movement to take off the "training wheels" of Ellen G. White and become all that the Lord intended this movement to be. Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Solo Christo, Sola Fide.

Bill Diehl, www.PresentTruthMag.org


Bill Diehl, editor
Present Truth Magazine Online
www.PresentTruthMag.org

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#10 02-14-09 5:17 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: Ellen White

Bob Sands said:  Bill, I have felt since 1980 that EGW should be considered devotional. 

It is fine to view Ellen White as "devotional" instead of someone who speaks with the doctrinal authority of the Apostles.  But this does not mean she has nothing to say.  She was a founder, and thus she has great insight into how Adventism is meant to function. 

So her views are more than "devotional."  Much more.  She understands the critical details that make Adventism work.  Violate these rules, and the paradigm will self-destruct.  This is what has happened.  No one is paying any attention to Ellen White.  The White Estate never has, nor have they represented her views correctly or honestly.

Do not confuse what the White Estate has taught about Ellen White with the real person of history.  I have seen the real Ellen White and am trying to explain her to those that care.  She is very different from the fabrications of the White Estate.

Moreover, I am not saying that her books, as written by the White Estate, should not be changed.  They all need to be re-worked and corrected.  There is a very different Ellen White waiting to be let out of her cage in the basement of the General Conference.

If the Adventist Community does not start paying more attention to the real Ellen White, and less to the White Estate version, they will certainly self-destruct.

So forget this idea that we must demote Ellen White to "devotional" status and ignore her views.  That is not correct whatsoever.  The Advent Community needs to understand and embrace what Ellen White is really saying.  And I can assure you that it is beyond "devotional" and very different from what the White Estate teaches.

Bob said:  I feel that it is holding our church back also, when I go to a funeral of a Pastor's wife and more EGW is quoted than scripture, 

The misuse and misrepresentation of Ellen White has stunted the Advent Movement.  The church is decades behind in its work, even a full century.  The White Estate must be reformed and the record corrected.  This is the only way to save the Advent Movement and restore the original version of the Three Angels Messages to the church.

Bob Shields said:  Why would you use the writings of Ellen as devotional knowing full well that they are full of error. I think you are appeasing the brethren with that rhetoric. 

First, Ellen White never claimed her writings were free from error.  In fact she said the opposite.   

Second, the Bible should be read for "devotional" reading.  This is the primary book for all Christians, and Ellen White never said otherwise.

Third, in spite of the incompetent White Estate, Ellen White really does have something important to say.  It is neither devotional nor legalistic.  Rather, it is an eschatological plea for SDA's to understand the Protestant Gospel and the Three Angels Messages correctly.  Why?  So that they can prepare the church for the Time of Trouble and the Judgment Day.  This is the mission of the SDA's, and Ellen White's role is to make sure they never forget.

Bob said to Bill:  Just admit that Ellen and James were farces and so is Tom Norris' evaluation of what Ellen really was.

Neither James nor Ellen White were inconsequential people.  They both overcame poverty, poor health, and a lack of education to develop a Religious Empire that stunned their peers and endures to this very day.   

James and Ellen White were a super couple in their day and it is very disrespectful of their many accomplishments to slander them as frauds or farces.  They were sincere, talented, and motivated.  Don't presume to judge them or even understand them, because it is obvious that you can do neither correctly.   Next time you eat a bowl of Corn Flakes or consume a Veggie Burger at Burger King, you need to thank them, because if nothing else, they are ultimately responsible for such healthy innovation.

James and Ellen White both understood that the Advent Movement was the extension of the Protestant Reformation.  What a pity that her writings have fallen into the hands of incompetent and corrupt people.  What a pity that the White Estate has hidden the real truth about both James and Ellen White.  They have promoted a fraud and a farce. 

Bob said:  The 19th Century was full of religious deceivers that thrived on falsehood. Ellen was no exception. 

While every century is full of false prophets, Ellen White does not fall into that category.  And neither does James White.  Those who speak this way are either very uninformed or they have a chip on their shoulder because of how Ellen White has been portrayed to them by the church.  It is very wrong to associate the real Ellen White with your long list of religious frauds.  Very wrong.

Bob said:  Today, there is no excuse for anyone to follow any of these cults. We all have enough proof of their falsehoods to make sane conclusions. Sadly there will always be some who ignore the obvious and drink the koolade. 

Bob, while cults abound, as you say, who has the truth?  What church today is teaching truth?  Please tell us?

Bob Shields said:  The lesser light was full of distortions, accusations, condemnations, legalism, Biblical stories that have been proven to be in error, and just plain falsehood. Why would anyone use this light to search for the Greater Light? Think about it.

Bob; was not the Old Covenant a lesser light, leading to the greater light?  Was not the Old Testament full of accusations, condemnations, legalism, and many errors?  Of course it was.   But that does not mean it has nothing to say or offer.

So too Ellen White.  Her story and personal journey is about moving from the Old Covenant to the New.  But the White Estate hid the post 1888 part of her moving forward to the Gospel.  They did not tell the full or true story about Ellen White and this great error has almost destroyed the SDA church and ruined the reputation of Ellen White.   

There is no excuse for what the White Estate has done.  And there is no excuse today for the Adventist Community to put up with this fraud any longer.  Although Ellen White was a legalist, like the leaders of the Apostolic Church, she did not remain so.   And this is the part of the story that the White Estate suppressed and hid.  But it is the best part.  Shame on them for what they have done.

The fact of the matter is that after 1888, Ellen White understood the Gospel correctly.  She repudiated Uriah Smiths views and tried to reform the SDA church.  But the leaders exiled her and then covered up this important part of the story.  Then, after her death, they gained control of all her writings so that they could hide what happened in Battle Creek and manipulate her life story.

But there is no reason to cover up anything.  Ellen White's life can stand on its own.  It is a wonderful and compelling story.  Too bad the White Estate has promoted such dangerous fraud instead.  Shame on them!

William Diehl said:  Seventh-day Adventism is not a cult. There are cultic Seventh-day Adventists, but the essence of the Adventist movement is true historic Protestant Christianity.

Well said!   

The Advent Movement is meant to be the extension of the Protestant Reformation.  The 4th Angels message of Rev 18 is meant to complete the theological work of the Reformers.  This is the point of the SDA church.  This is their mission and the reason why they exist.

The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Angels Messages represent the true theological path to the New Jerusalem.   But the SDA's have ruined their own paradigm and misunderstood their own Sabbatarian message.

The 4th Angels Message, which has yet to be developed, represents the most credible and correct Gospel theology that the church has ever proclaimed.  This is what SDA's still must do.  But only after they repent for their many errors and sins by apologizing to Dr. Ford and censuring the fraud in the White Estate, that is the root cause for all this confusion.   

But the leaders are not listening.  They are caught up in their own religious delusions and fraud.  So there must be a reformation within the Adventist Community.  The work of James and Ellen White must go forward.

So Bill D., glad to see you here.  You are most welcome to help promote Gospel Reform.   

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Last edited by tom_norris (03-22-10 10:03 pm)

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#11 02-14-09 7:32 pm

elaine
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,391

Re: Ellen White

I am sure that there is some good advice in Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, and volumes of others, if someone cares to be very discriminating. However, when the SDA church annointed EGW with the "Spirit of Prophecy" and as an "authoritative" source of truth, they became a cult-like religion.

Now, someone else can separate a "cult-like" religion from a cult. Go ahead.

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#12 02-14-09 11:58 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: Ellen White

Elaine Nelson said: I am sure that there is some good advice in Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, and volumes of others, if someone cares to be very discriminating.

You are missing the point. James and Ellen White were all about the work of the Advent Movement. They took the position that God was leading this work, even fulfilling the prophecy of Rev 14.

This is how they are to be judged and viewed.

The others you mentioned had very different agendas. The Mormons, for example, are complete and total frauds. There have nothing worthwhile or true to say. And so too the Christian Scientists, and many others that could be named. These cults only fulfill prophecy in the negative, that is, they represent how bad false religion will become in the last days.

The Adventists on the other hand were part of the Protestant Movement. They were part of a remarkable history that improved the understanding of Protestant eschatology and prophecy. They corrected the way all churches viewed the Second Coming, even as they pressed forward to better understand how the world would end.

Elaine said: However, when the SDA church anointed EGW with the "Spirit of Prophecy" and as an "authoritative" source of truth, they became a cult-like religion.

In the beginning, Ellen White was viewed as a deterrent to the development of an evil hierarchy. This is how James White employed his wife's gifts. She was meant to be an independent check to keep the new denomination from becoming like the other churches. This is why she was never to hold any official leadership position. She stood in a unique place, like the OT prophets that advised the Jewish leadership.

This unique arrangement worked fine so long as James White was leading the church. But after James White died, the leaders ignored her voice, even as she was exiled by them to keep her quiet. Of course a few years later the church collapsed because they ignored her. Then they had to retreat to Takoma Park.

Here is where the SDA's "anointed" the dead Ellen White to be the source of truth. Here is where the SDA's morphed into a genuine and dishonest cult that the Pioneers would never recognize or approve. Here is where they suppressed her real story and developed a fraud for the church to follow. A fraud that claimed to have doctrinal authority.

Elaine said: Now, someone else can separate a "cult-like" religion from a cult. Go ahead.

It is easy to make such a determination. Those that have additional doctrinal sources for doctrine, like the Mormons or the modern SDA's-- ARE A CULT. This is the first test. So it is very easy to identify a cult.

While the 19th century SDA's had a legalistic Gospel, they did not have any additional source for doctrine other than the Bible. This idea that Ellen White had doctrinal authority was a 20th century invention that runs contrary to all the teachings of Ellen White. It was a fabrication from the What Estate that was never true. But yet, this myth has come to define SDA theology. Too bad for them.

The SDA's are a cult today, not because of Ellen White, but in spite of her. The White Estate has turned the SDA church into a cult by their false positions that they have taken in the name of Ellen White. They are the problem and the reason why Adventism is self-destructing in cultic confusion.

Arthur White became the cultic leader of the SDA's. He and some others are guilty of not only fabricating a massive fraud about Ellen White and church history, but of leading SDA's down a path of cultic catastrophe. There is no excuse for what has happened. The White Estate has played the role of Judas. They have betrayed Ellen White and the Adventist people.

Glacier View represents a monument to the fraud of Traditional Adventism. It stands as a cultic reminder of how far the SDA's have fallen. Clean up the stinking White Estate, and the Advent Movement will come alive. Refuse to do so and watch the church continue to self-destruct. The choice is up to the Adventist Community. What do they want to do?

The SDA's must repent of their cultic and Old Covenant ways. They must confess their many errors and sins and get back to the business of Gospel eschatology. This is their mission and the reason why they exist. There is nothing cultic about preaching the Gospel to a Judgment bound world.

Last edited by tom_norris (03-23-10 02:04)

Last edited by tom_norris (03-22-10 10:04 pm)

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#13 02-15-09 12:20 pm

maggie
Member
Registered: 01-07-09
Posts: 367

Re: Ellen White

tom_norris wrote:

...get back to the business of Gospel eschatology.

Is that why Jesus has still not come, after all these years, Tom?

Careful...I'm settin' you up....

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#14 02-15-09 4:56 pm

neal
Member
Registered: 02-09-09
Posts: 729

Re: Ellen White

The SDA's are a cult today....

Amon.

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#15 02-16-09 4:42 am

billdljr
Member
From: San Diego, Ca
Registered: 02-13-09
Posts: 77
Website

Re: Ellen White

I guess that from the looks of the replies in this topic and other topics I was wrong about this forum.

I thought that from the name "Atomorrow" it was supposed to be a forum for Adventists who actually believe in the basic teachings of the bible.

What I see are posters who not only do not believe in the Adventist movement but who don't accept the fundamental teachings of the Bible. My mistake.

Names can be other than what they seem to be. Perhaps the name "NonAdentistsTomorrow" would best describe the basic purpose of this forum. Am I wrong?


Bill Diehl, editor
Present Truth Magazine Online
www.PresentTruthMag.org

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#16 02-16-09 9:23 am

don
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,121

Re: Ellen White

Perhaps the name "NonAdentistsTomorrow" would best describe the basic purpose of this forum. Am I wrong?

Bill, there is a wide spectrum of ideas found here and several of our atomorrow friends do not accept the Bible's teachings, others do. I have felt unnerved by this veering away from the "Word of God". But, as I continued to think with them, I have come to understand their perspective and why. The skeptics' difficulty with the Bible is deep and profound. Some of the questions posed have no answer except, "Yes, that's a tough one. Here is why I still believe..."

I have been "blessed" by these discussions. When my students pose questions of their own doubt, I find I can discuss from the experience I have gained here at atomorrow. I have learned to "sharpen up" my assertions. I recall one student expressing the "How do you know..." questions about God, etc. As I thought about it, I came to realize that some line of questions have no workable answers except that which lead to doubt. When a student starts to push for answers to these, I point out what I have learned. If they want to continue, I will attempt to give the best answers I know, but in the end, one must choose whether or not to believe in the face of one's doubts.

Adventists often express the desire to reach the "unchurched". But how can a person do that, if they don't understand how the skeptic thinks.

On some of your posts you have included your website address. Thanks for that. I have found the Present Truth Magazine website quite helpful and carefully thought out. I have used your presentation of NT Bible verses supporting the Ten Commandments on a post on another forum. I have also noted that some of your concerns and those of Tom Norris seem similar.

Don't get discouraged with this atomorrow community. We benefit from each other. After you arrived here and I noted your strong stand for the Sabbath, I thought that a thread where you and Bob_2 discuss the New Covenant Theology views would be helpful. (Bob_2 I hope you don't mind this suggestion. Billdljr probably has more systematic answers to your observations than some of the rest of us.)

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#17 02-16-09 11:30 am

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: Ellen White

Bill, would love to discuss, my hope for Atomorrow.net and why I post here. Neal is an athiest, I believe hangs around as Former Adventist to just shoot down anything that is not Atheistic. The rules allow the like of him here to spew forth his atheism and paganistic belief.

You comment about you thinking we all believed in the fundamental teachings of the Bible, my view on New Covenant Theology, that I believe is the truth not all would consider it the fundamental teaching of the Bible though it is entrenched in texts that were once either ignored or taken to mean what the reader chose.

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#18 02-16-09 12:39 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: Ellen White

William Diehl said:   I guess that from the looks of the replies in this topic and other topics I was wrong about this forum. I thought that from the name "Atomorrow" it was supposed to be a forum for Adventists who actually believe in the basic teachings of the bible. 

Tom said:  Bill, I hope you read the history of this site.  It explains how so many different types of people could come together on the same Forum.  It is the only site in the Adventist Community that is not censored from discussing the issues.  And this makes it a great place to promote Adventist Reform, which is why I am here.   

http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=224

Had such a site been around in the 1970's, Glacier View could not have taken place, and Arthur White would have been led out of the White Estate in handcuffs.   

The fact that there are so many angry ex-SDA's on this site is a sign of the times.  There is far more ex-SDA's in N America then there are members in church on Sabbath.  Millions more.  So this site reflects that fact.   

This large group of misfits ranges from rank legalists that hate Dr. Ford and think Tithe paying is the will of God-- to those that pay Dr. Ford Tribute and repudiate tithe and the SDA Hierarchy.  There are also many here who despise Ellen White and some that defend her.  There is every possible position represented on this site.

There are also a number that no longer believe in the Bible, or even God.  But the very fact they are here proves they have not given up on the possibility of Eternal Life.  So I take time to answer their questions, because they too are searching for truth, even if they pretend otherwise.

So this site, and the one before it under the watchful eye of JR Layman, and the one before that, at Atoday, represents the confused, chaotic, and corrupt state of the Advent Movement.  These sites reflect what the Adventist Community is thinking, and it is not a pretty sight.

But the Gospel does best in such a place.  This is where the real sinners hang out.  The ones that doubt God and question his Word, as well as the ones that do understand the Gospel.  Those that think they are righteous, or that they have all the answers will not fare well over here, as Clifford Goldstein discovered.

So don't complain.  Instead, use this site to help reform Adventism.  Take advantage of this unique place and push whatever reforms need to be made, which are many.  This is how the Advent Movement will find its bearings.  This is how Gospel Reformation takes place.  This is how the 4th Angels Message will be developed.  This is how the Advent Movement will go forward.

The Advent Movement needs to wake up and move forward!  Time is short.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Last edited by tom_norris (03-24-10 3:26 pm)

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#19 02-16-09 3:37 pm

john8verse32
Member
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 765

Re: Ellen White

Spectrum discusion on the EGW issue for those who may not have been following it:

http://www.spectrummagazine.org/blog/20 … e_spectrum


If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?

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#20 02-18-09 11:36 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: Ellen White

John, thanks for posting the latest from Spectrum about Ellen White. Too bad that it is nothing more than recycled and outdated ideas from 40 years ago! Talk about cutting edge material? Ha! These guys are so far behind that it is funny, if it were not so sad and pathetic.

This is what is so annoying about SDA's. They think they are so smart and smug, but in reality, they are the world's greatest pretenders and double-talkers. They just talk in circles and Spectrum underscores this point with their pathetic attempts at making useless discussion. The fact of the matter is that they are more interested in "loyalty" to the church then they admit.

This is what you get when you deal with any church affiliated Forum or Publication. That is also what went on at Atoday. These publications are not addressing the real issues nor do they want to do any such thing. They are all just stalling for time and pretending to want reform. They are playing a role of diversion on behalf of the hierarchy, even as they are willing and complicit tools of propaganda and fraud that are being used to control and deceive the Adventist Community.

So I was glad to see Bill D. over there responding. But I won't waste my time in such a dishonest place. They are not serous seekers for truth, and they never have been. Spectrum is a charade, a liberal publication that tries to make Adventism look serious and intelligent, when it is nothing but a tired and dishonest farce.

I repeat; Spectrum is 40 years BEHIND the times with this worn out discussion about what is going on in the White Estate. They didn't want to know then, and they still don't care now. Because if they really wanted to know, they could have taken the trouble to look at the real issues and get some answers. But they are not about answers or truth. So don't let them fool you. They are only pretending.

Here is this excellent, (for its time), article. There were many calls like this during the 1970's. So many, that I was impressed to visit the GC in Takoma Park, and try to examine the 1888 record. As a young theology student, I agreed that there was no excuse for all this confusion about Ellen White.

So while many others, like Spectrum, complained about the White Estate, I set out to get the facts and solve this protracted conundrum that was so perplexing to all.

Ellen White: A Subject for Adventist Scholarship
From Spectrum Autumn 1970, Vol 2, No. 4

by ROY BRANSON and HEROLD D. WEISS

Most Seventh-day Adventists know that for some time we have been able to make Ellen G. White say almost anything we want. Her authority is universally recognized in the church, but what we make her say with authority often depends on who of us is quoting her. In the life of the church, therefore, she speaks with many accents. Sometimes on a single topic we make her voice blare out arguments on both sides of a debate.

Take the subject of health reform. One Ellen White talks reasonably about the advantages of temperate living. Another Ellen White fanatically demands that we eat only foods grown according to certain rigidly defined methods. Which is the real Ellen White ?

Sometimes we make her march determinedly in opposite directions - as in our discussions of justification by faith versus perfection, or God's sovereignty versus man's free will. As important a topic as the universality of salvation throws us into a dilemma when quotations extracted from her writings are simply strung together end-to-end. She appears on both the banner of those who say that the heathen who never hear the name of Christ will be as if they never were, and the banner of those who insist that every man is given light sufficient for a choice determining his eternal destiny.

The result of having so many Ellen Whites is that the Adventist church may soon have no Ellen White at all. Conceivably all that may be left will be a few members shouting at each other in her name; the great majority, having already despaired of understanding her, will only wonder what all the commotion is about.

It should be clear by now that among the top priorities of the church ought to be the establishment of more objective ways of understanding what Ellen White said. The church needs to see a coherent whole in her wide-ranging writings. To find a consistent method of interpretation for these writings should not be thought of as merely an intriguing academic possibility; it is an essential and immediate task for the church.

Up to now, two main ways - both of them wanting - have been used to understand Mrs. White's thinking. One way has been to compile quotations taken at random from all her works, and then to group these quotations simply by topic. The other way has been to consider as more authoritative those statements that start with the words "I was shown," or some similar expression.

Both of these ways have sometimes proved useful, but they remain inadequate. A collection of quotations by topic often exaggerates the seeming contradictions among them. As a result, the consistent viewpoints Ellen White actually had are obscured, and her persuasiveness is diminished. On the other hand, to take as authoritative only the statements that cite a specific vision depreciates the value of the many things God "showed" her through the guidance of the Holy Spirit pervading her life. She was led by God even when she could not refer to a particular vision for a specific admonition.

The church has not sufficiently perceived the full significance of Ellen White's message by using these means. New methods are needed. What follows is a set of proposals to make possible a more consistent interpretation of these inspired writings.

The first step should be to discover the nature of Mrs. White's relationship to other authors. We know that she borrowed terms, phrases, and historical accounts from others. To find the real Ellen White we must undertake the vast, but absolutely necessary, task of learning exactly what kind of use she made of the work of these other writers. Sample cores have been taken,[1] but the vital information - the nature, selection, and use of the abundant material available to her and integrated by her in her writing - is still a mystery. Until we know more precisely which authors she respected sufficiently to rely on, we will not really know Ellen White or her ideas.

The second step should be to recover the social and intellectual milieu in which she lived and wrote. How can her testimony be understood until the economic, political, religious, and educational issues that were the context of her words are recognized ? Unless we know what meaning specific words had in the culture of her day, how can we know her meaning in using them ?[2] Either Ellen White lives for us first in her own cultural situation or she does not live for us at all. Of course, if we hear her speak within a definite cultural milieu, we do not thereby confine the significance of her words to that context. Understanding her in terms of the nineteenth century does not mean that what she said is irrelevant to the twentieth century. Actually, finding how her words pertained to the past century is a necessary step in establishing their relevance to our own. Like most things in nature, words do not live in a vacuum.

The third step should be to give close attention to the development of Ellen White's writings within her own lifetime, and also to the development of the church. What was first written as a small series of books grew through the years into the rather voluminous Conflict of the Ages series. Personal letters became articles in church papers, only thereafter to be transformed into parts of books. Events in Mrs. White's life and currents in the church are relevant to understanding why her writings took the shape they did. Compilations of her writings published since her death should be examined in terms of the issues that confronted the church when the editors did their compiling.[3]

By taking the three foregoing steps we can know with more assurance what the real Ellen White said. By making certain that our investigations follow clearly defined guidelines, we can more completely free our interpretations of conflicting personal biases. When we compare what she took from her sources with what she ignored in them, we can see more clearly a trend in her thinking. By knowing the streams of thinking in which these sources fall, and by being aware of what other alternatives existed for her, we can see for the first time the significance of her choice of sources. By putting ourselves in the crosscurrents of her day, we can see why she used one argument on a topic at one time and another argument on the same topic at another time. Anything we learn about her and the church at every stage in the preparation of her writings can only help draw us further into her mind.

Our final step should then be to apply in our day the words she spoke in her day. We may never be able fully to recapture Ellen White's original intentions or the absolute truth of what she meant. But if the methods proposed here, or similar ones, were implemented, the church would be much closer to her ideas than it is now. Setting up objective criteria for interpretation would restrain individual prejudice and decrease confusion. With relatively greater consensus on what she said, we would increasingly agree on what she would say today. Her influence, instead of waning, would then become more pervasive.

Using such methods would put the church in touch with a more vital and interesting Ellen White, with nuances and enthusiasms we do not recognize now. This more vibrant Ellen White would not always agree with her modern readers (any more than she did with her original readers), but she would be a more believable person. She would be seen as God's human spokesman - perhaps less magical and less awesome, but also less obscure and less ignored, and therefore actually more influential than she is now. And if she were more vital and effective, she would thereby be actually more authoritative also. Rather than being an impersonal voice subject to our manipulation, she would become again the living, breathing person who drew men to God.

Following methods like those outlined here would open up far-reaching scholarly enterprises. No one Adventist during his entire life could accomplish the tasks that would emerge. Indeed, no single discipline has adequate tools to do the job alone. It is imperative, therefore, that Adventist scholars from various disciplines bring their different perspectives and insights and equipment to the challenge of understanding Ellen G. White.

This kind of interdisciplinary effort by the Adventist academic community could help more clearly to distinguish the essence of Adventism.

NOTES
1 An example is William S. Peterson's article in this issue: A Textual and Historical Study of Ellen White's Account of the French Revolution.

2 In an unpublished study, Ellen G. White and Fiction, John O. Waller examines the meaning of the word fiction in Mrs. White's time and relates his findings to her use of the term.

Richard Rice's article, Adventists and Welfare Work: A Comparative Study (Spectrum 2, 52-63, winter 1970), recounts some of the attitudes and endeavors of social welfare activists in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, and thus gives an idea of the issues that concerned Mrs. White when she commented on social welfare.

The task of recreating the milieu in which Mrs. White and other early Adventists discussed interracial relations is attempted by Branson in Ellen G. White: Racist
Or Champion of Equality? Review and Herald, April 9, 16, and 23, 1970.

3 In his recent book, Ellen G. White and Church Race Relations (Washington, D. C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association 1970), Ronald D. Graybill has established the setting, in Mrs. White's life and in the work of the church, of her comments on race in Testimonies for the Church, volume nine (Washington, D. C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association 1970), pp. 199-226.

Jonathan Butler, in Ellen G. White and the Chicago Mission (Spectrum 2, 41-51, winter 1970), shows that a knowledge of the church's controversy with John Harvey Kellogg is essential to an understanding of Mrs. White's seemingly contradictory statements on inner-city mission work.

AUTUMN 1970
----------------------------------------

Note suggestion # 3 in the article. This is the step that I took in 1979. Here it is again:

The third step should be to give close attention to the development of Ellen White's writings within her own lifetime, and also to the development of the church.

What was first written as a small series of books grew through the years into the rather voluminous Conflict of the Ages series. Personal letters became articles in church papers, only thereafter to be transformed into parts of books. Events in Mrs. White's life and currents in the church are relevant to understanding why her writings took the shape they did.

Compilations of her writings published since her death should be examined in terms of the issues that confronted the church when the editors did their compiling.
------------------------------------

What a great idea Spectrum had in 1970!

Too bad that they were too lazy or stupid to follow up. How hard could it be to read Ellen White's original writings and figure out what she was saying? But they never tried to figure out anything. Nor did they press the issues. They were content to babble on in an attempt to show that "a truly lay Adventist press could be candid and loyal at the same time."

But they have failed. They are part of the problem. They have chosen "loyalty" over truth and pretensions over substance.

So almost 10 years after Spectrum called for an end to the confusion about Ellen white, (1979), I went into the newly opened (1975) GC Archives in search of 1888 and the real Ellen White. I immediately found thousands of documents that had never been seen or read by anyone for 70 years. It was there for the asking, and I asked for it and was the first person to go through this rare material that had been hidden in the attic of old Takoma Park GC building after the church moved from Battle Creek.

So if Spectrum, or anyone, wanted to find the answers back in the 1970's, at least after 1975, all they had to do is walk into the GC Archives and ask to see the boxes of material of that period. That's what I did.

Were the Spectrum brainiacs too lazy to do some original research? Apparently so, because they still don't have a clue about what has been going on the White Estate or that a massive fraud has been taking place right under their own nose. This is what happens when "loyalty" and journalism mix. Truth becomes the victim.

So what is the point of a publication like Spectrum? It has no point other than for the liberal elites to share their useless knowledge. They are part of the problem. And so they have always been. This discovery in 1979 by Tom Norris was so dramatic, and different from the White Estate's position, that I was asked by Dr. Don Yost to enter the Ellen White Estate, right down the hallway, to survey the material in their vaults. Although Arthur White protested, he was outvoted.

Once in the Vaults, I discovered a very large collection of suppressed and hidden documents that Arthur White was hiding from the church.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … uments.htm

Here was the mother load of 1888 materials that told a very different story from what the church had been promoting all these years. Arthur White was caught red handed. And so too Dr. Froom. It was obvious that a massive fraud was taking place.

But where was Spectrum? After all, they had called for an investigation into the writings of Ellen White. Now that one was underway, where were they? And where was the Review? They were all too busy being "loyal" to report such a great discovery. Shame on them!

Spectrum was oblivious to all this because they are useless and have no worthwhile agenda other than to pretend they are smart and loyal. Besides, they would never be allowed to report such a story then, nor are they allowed to do so today.

So what good are they? And what good is Atoday or the Review? These publications do not report anything worthwhile or important. They are propaganda tools for the corrupt hierarchy and nothing more.

This is why I prefer this open and free Forum to anything that is associated with the church. There is only freedom within Adventism to become controlled, deceived, and indebted to the church through the fraud of tithe. It is a paradigm of deception and cultic religious fraud that should be avoided at all costs. Propaganda and pretty graphics is about all the SDA's offer today.

Beware of Spectrum, Atoday, the Review, and the Sabbath School lessons, etc. These are all dishonest tools of propaganda and religious control. No one today should be fooled by the dishonest cult of the SDA's. They do no deserve the respect or trust of anyone.

I hope this helps people to understand how dangerous it is to read anything by the SDA's; they are not to be trusted. This includes Spectrum.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Last edited by tom_norris (03-24-10 3:32 pm)

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#21 02-19-09 1:39 am

maggie
Member
Registered: 01-07-09
Posts: 367

Re: Ellen White

Tom, why don't you take advantage of this "open and free forum" and tell us what those "hidden documents" actually said that was so revolutionary, and beyond what one could read in the Bible.

You've been stingy far too long.

Just think - you could single-handedly hasten the Eschaton - but you leave us hanging, year after year!

When are you going to tell us, Tom?

I don't think you have anything at all to tell us. If you did, you'd tell us.

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#22 02-19-09 2:13 am

maggie
Member
Registered: 01-07-09
Posts: 367

Re: Ellen White

It doesn't take 27,000 (!) words to tell us that you're about to tell us something you never get around to telling us, and probably never will, 'cause you don't really have anything to tell us, but you're never gonna tell us that. blink

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#23 02-19-09 2:21 am

maggie
Member
Registered: 01-07-09
Posts: 367

Re: Ellen White

The hidden Ellen White documents, and the discovery of the 1888 history, will change everything for the Adventist Community.

    It will give this church a new opportunity to recover their lost eschatological mission and return to their Protestant roots.

    It will also give them sufficient reason to embrace Adventist Reform, remove their dishonest leaders, and embrace a new organizational model that will unleash the theological potential of the modern Adventist Movement.

    I hope this helps.

    http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … uments.htm

Tom. What was the significance of the documents? Please?

You've taken us down the rabbit hole, and it would help if you would stop blowing smoke.

hookah

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#24 02-19-09 10:22 am

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: Ellen White

Maggie, you are correct, I said "The hidden Ellen White documents, and the discovery of the 1888 history, will change everything for the Adventist Community…"

However, such a statement is dependent on the Adventist Community waking up and comprehending some things. So far, that has not happened.

Take Spectrum, for example. They would rather discuss the issue of Ellen White as it was 40 years ago. Why? Because it is safe, and because it avoids the real issues. This is how the SDA's operate. But guess what? How many years did it take for the recent Madoff scandal to become public?

It took many years of ignoring the evidence before the fraud became known. As I saw the regulators being lined up and grilled by Congress for their incompetence, I thought of the SDA's who are also guilty of being deaf to those that tried to warn them of the facts.

So the SDA's can play all the games they want, it will not change what they have done. One way or another, they are going to be forced to face up to what has happened,- whether they want to or not. We are dealing with a crime, and criminals rarely confess unless they are caught and forced to do so. So be it. That will work for me.

Here is a recent request, on the All Experts site, that asked the same question. There are many that starting to understand, and one day I hope that even you, along with the deep thinking Spectrum, will wake up and comprehend the facts. But I must confess, the SDA's are much more dull and brainwashed than I ever suspected. They are not much different from the Mormons, JW's, or the 1st century Jews. Which is to say that they are not very bright or motivated to learn. Pity.

Question to Expert: Tom Norris - 2/15/2009

"What exactly are SDA's hiding?"

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … hiding.htm

Answer: What are the SDA's hiding? Why are they so full of double-talk, debate, and schism?

The modern SDA's have not been honest with their history or doctrinal development. They have tried to cover up and deny the reason why their 19th century Battle Creek Empire erupted in flames and schism, forcing them to retreat to Takoma Park. This catastrophe is why they are located in the DC metro area, but they rarely speak about it.

Once in Takoma Park, the leaders took action that they thought would forever prevent another such meltdown. Because much of the turmoil involved the top leadership, especially Ellen White and Uriah Smith, they decided it was best to censor her writings of this period, hide the issues, and ignore the real reason why the Battle Creek Empire failed.

To be fair, the leaders intended to tell the truth one day. But they calculated that some time must pass before it would be safe to explain what happened in Battle Creek. However, as the 20th century rolled on, it never became convenient to tell the truth. Although there were a number of excellent opportunities for them to do so, they refused to tell the truth, even as they invented more fiction that confused everyone about Ellen White.

Regardless of their intentions, the Takoma Park leaders hid the 1888 debates that were the primary reason for the Denomination's demise. They placed Ellen White's writings of this period off limits to the public and to scholars. Then they set about to dishonestly revise church history and promote a false version of Ellen White, and her theology to the church and the public.

Of course they did this with the best of intentions because they were trying to prevent a repeat of this tragic period of SDA history when the church debated themselves into a great schism. So for the good of the church, (supposedly), the leaders systematically promoted a contaminated and fraudulent version of SDA history. They covered up the 1888 debates, and put out a number of diversions and myths.

When this fraud was finally discovered in 1979, in the Archives and the White Estate, the leaders hid this discovery and covered up what Arthur White had really been doing in the basement of the General Conference for 40 years. There is a reason why it is wrong to lie and deceive.

Sin is not bad for no reason. Those that claim to follow the teachings of Jesus should have known better than to embrace such a wicked fraud, which often has unintended, negitive consequences.

And guess what? The very thing that the church leaders were trying to avoid- took place anyway. The same debate about the law and the Gospel erupted in the 1970's, just like it did in the 1880's. But even so, the White Estate still refused to tell the truth about what happened in Battle Creek. If anyone questioned them, as many did, they were harshly rebuffed. Thus the White Estate made things worse by their deception, as they plunged the church into a hopeless debate that ended in great schism.

As the debates of the 1970's heated up, there was a growing feeling that something was wrong. Ellen White's writings seemed to contradict themselves in too many places. But the White Estate insisted that she never changed her mind, about doctrine and that every position that was being promoted by the church had her full support. But there was great cause for concern.

Here is a link to this problem, as it was being discussed 40 years ago. Little seems to have changed, but in fact, everything has changed. Except for the fact that the leaders still refuse to acknowledge their errors and repent.

http://www.spectrummagazine.org/blog/20 … ut_ellen..

Although there were a number of official accounts about 1888 circulating, some of them by the White Estate, none of them were true. The White Estate had been hiding the real story of 1888 from the very beginning. They have so censored, suppressed, and manipulated Ellen White's writings that they confused themselves, and everyone else. They even came to the place where they boldly took positions, - in Ellen White's name, - that she never took. Thus ruining Ellen White's reputation, with gross and deliberate misrepresentation.

In short, the White Estate has been perpetrating a massive fraud about Ellen White and the very Fundamentals that define SDA theology. Arthur White is the most dishonest and incompetent leader that the SDA church has ever produced. It is time this fact becomes public knowledge and for the White Estate to be censured and reformed.

I know these details because I am the one that found the hidden record of 1888 in the GC Archives and then in the White Estate. I confronted Arthur White, (politely) about his misuse of sources, and he had no defense for what he had done. Nor did he admit to anything, even though he did agree to change a very misleading book title about1888, which was the topic of our meeting. Thus, Crisis to Victory was changed to "13 Crisis Years." But none of the many internal errors were corrected.

The fact of the matter is that Adventist people have been horribly deceived and misled by the White Estate and the General Conference, which owns this unique archive and religious publisher. The modern Adventists never told the truth about Ellen White or church history. And they have no plans to come clean now. How sad.

White Estate Fraud

There are many areas where the White Estate has deceived the church about Ellen White. I will list some of them. Then you can decide how you feel about being misled all these years. I think it is very wrong, even criminal. And it is not going to stand if I have anything to do about it.

First of all, it was James White that controlled, managed, and published his wife's writings. He was the mastermind that developed the SDA church into a successful Empire. He was far more influential and important to the Cause then was his wife. Even the story of his youth is more compelling and dramatic than that of Ellen White.

http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/message … 1234813048

http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/message … 1234715658

Second, Ellen White never had any doctrinal authority. The Pioneers were clear on this point, and so too was she and the record. Furthermore, she was not a prophet in the sense that the White Estate claims. Nor did she ever approve of her writings being used from the pulpit or placed in the SS Lessons or Church Manuel, which is common practice for SDA's.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … e-true.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … rophet.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … e-10.ht..\

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … e-10.ht..\

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … tes-pape..

Third, Ellen White never claimed or said that the IJ is located in the 1st Angles Message or that this doctrine played any role in the prophetic fulfillment of the 1st Angels Message. But yet, this is what the White Estate claims she believed, -when it was never true. Arthur White had no regard for the truth, and thus he created a version of Ellen White that reflected his own cultic, legalistic, and uneducated view of theology.

Ellen White does not support Traditional Adventism as taught by the Takoma Park apologists and made official at Glacier View. She never would have supported the SDA Creed that was developed at that time, nor those that exiled Dr. Ford. The Conservatives have been misrepresenting her all these years, and now that they have been caught they don't want to discuss the matter.

This also means that Glacier View was a farce, and so too most everything that the church has been teaching for generations. It is a stunning but true observation, one that should shock every SDA to the core.

This most fundamental point about the IJ being part of the 1st Angels Message was a total fabrication and lie. This position, which is so fundamental to TA, has NO support of Ellen White, and it never did. Those apologists that run around and spread this slander about Ellen White, like Clifford Goldstein, are doing a great disservice to Adventism and Ellen White.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ment-2...\

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ment-2...\

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -Judgement

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ive-Jud..\

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -Messag..\

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … l-Messag..

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Messag..\\

Fourth, while Ellen White did fall into legalism, like the rest of the leaders, she changed her views after 1888. After that time, she repudiated Uriah Smiths theology, embraced Luther's view of the law and the Gospel, and never reconciled with Smith, who was thrown out of the Review at the end of his life for legalism.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … erence.h..

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ones-Wa..\

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ones-Wa..\

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ggoner.htm

The fraud of the White Estate is tragic. If only the leaders had told the truth, the SDA Church would not have self-destructed over myths and false doctrine. If only the White Estate had not covered all this up by pretending that Ellen White never broke with Smith and never changed her views. If only…

The Church published a number of official books, like Movement of Destiny, that claimed to tell the true story of 1888, directly from the vaults of the White Estate. But all the while the author knew that they were hiding thousands of documents and official records that told a very different story.

In other words, the highest church leaders were perpetrating a long running fraud on the church and the public. And they are still doing it today. They have not confessed, repented, or reformed, even though the church had the perfect opportunity at Glacier View in 1980 to do so.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … r-View.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Estate.htm

The White Estate has pulled off the greatest fraud in the history of the modern church. They have promoted a massive fabrication about Ellen White that has influenced and deceived millions of people. All SDA's, as well as the public, have been the victims of a cruel and criminal hoax. The Advent Movement has been destroyed from the inside by corruption, incompetence, and intrigue. The White Estate is the guilty party.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … uments.htm

So I say again, the theology and prophecy that the modern SDA church has been promoting all these years is wrong and fabricated. The Church has been teaching a bogus version of the Three Angels Messages for generations. Why? Because the IJ was NEVER part of the 1st Angels Message as All SDA's teach and Glacier View made official. Nor was a Gospel of works part of Historic Adventism. And Ellen White never said otherwise.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1231052766

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1204043197

The Adventists have the WRONG Judgment and the wrong Gospel, all wrapped up in a false and impossible version of the Three Angels Messages that has no support from the Pioneers. They are cultic frauds and Protestant Pretenders. This is why they must repent and reform.

The SDA's are the most dishonest of all denominations and unless they repent and correct the record, all should condemn them. Fortunately for them, there is a very different version of Ellen White and Adventist theology waiting to be discovered by the Adventist Community. But they may not care. I trust this answers your question:

So Maggie, all I can do is tell the truth about Ellen White. One day it might make a difference to the self-destructing and confused SDA's. Or not. I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Last edited by tom_norris (03-24-10 3:51 pm)

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#25 02-19-09 10:36 am

maggie
Member
Registered: 01-07-09
Posts: 367

Re: Ellen White

So, the SDAs would have been better off to just be Protestants and not take that God-inspired 44-year detour into legalism that Ellen White led us into.

That would "change everything," in that SDAs really don't have a reason to exist, except for an example of what not to do, i.e., follow a legalistic Prophetess around the desert of legalism for four years longer than the Israelites followed Moses around the desert of old.

So Seventh-day Adventism is a cautionary tale: be very careful when people tell you they're getting messages from God.

Right. I've got that one down.

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