Women's Ordination -

tom_norris · 02-13-11 1:03 pm

Dear Tom,

First of all, thanks for even being on here to help frustrated Adventists, it is really hard because you can't discuss how you feel with anyone in the SDA church without feeling like people will shun you or look at you like a heretic. And then you're scared to ask anyone else because the way the church trained you- like you will fall into error and go to hell.

My question is on women in ministry.

I did look through previous questions, and I saw that you had quoted a text saying that there is no male and female in Christ.

However, there are significant passages which speak about a woman being in submission because of the order of creation, and because she brought sin into the world.

Also there is a passage that talks about women not being permitted to usurp authority over a man, and another talking about head coverings and praying/prophesying.

If Paul wrote these epistles then why are the instructions so different?

It is confusing to me as I feel God is calling me to ministry (as a woman) but I don't want to be out of the divine order, or be a stumbling block to others who believe in the Bible.

Sandra
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Sandra, thanks for your kind words of appreciation for Adventist Reform. I am duty bound to help the Adventist Community rediscover its unique, historic, and eschatological mission.

I also understand how frustrating it is for those trying to find Gospel truth within the SDA Community, and for those that have found it.

While there are some great truths within Adventism, there is not much today that is honest, true, or correct. The Denomination is fully corrupt, managed like a totalitarian regime, complete with endless propaganda and a closed press. Any that refuse to submit to the hierarchical rules are marginalized, slandered, and removed.

There is no freedom within the SDA church to question any doctrine, much less honestly study the Bible or the Gospel. Nor does the all male hierarchical leaders have any intention of ever giving up their control, much less repenting for their many false doctrines and sins. Such a stifling, anti-Gospel environment is not conducive to understanding the teachings of Jesus. There is no love or Eternal Life in the SDA church. The Spirit is not there and neither is Gospel truth. So beware.

Today, the Laodicean church, meaning every denomination, is full to overflowing with doctrinal error. And the double-talking SDA’s are one of the worst. They do not understand what the New Covenant teaches and what it does not, nor do they care. So no wonder that everyone in Adventism is confused about doctrine. How can they not be?

How To Understand Doctrine

The secret to correctly understanding NT doctrine is to properly separate and distinguish the Old Covenant law-- from the New Covenant Gospel. Without this important understanding, it will be impossible to know what is true doctrine for the church and what is not.

In other words, when the Gospel is correctly understood, the truth about Women in Ministry, Tithe, the Sabbath, food laws, the Judgment, and all else will become clear. The endless debating over doctrine will end because there is only one Gospel and one Lord, not many.

Today, there is great doctrinal confusion in the SDA church because the (all male) hierarchical, leaders have incorrectly blended and mixed the OC with the NC, developing a hybrid Gospel that is distorted, worthless, and wrong. Like the Judaizers in the apostolic church, the SDA’s also misunderstand the law and the Gospel and consequently they promote one doctrinal error after another, including this idea that only men may be ordained in the church.

Question: Where does this idea about the all male priesthood originate?

Answer: The Old Covenant. Judaism did not allow any female Priests, ONLY males.

Question: Did this ever change?

Answer: Yes. The NT has a very different view of the Priesthood.

The New Covenant is very different from the Old. That’s why it is called “New,” and also why it is separated from the OT in all versions of the Bible. Thus, the NC has a different view of the Sabbath, as well as church organization and finance, the Priesthood and even food. To misunderstand this theological point is to misunderstand the entire Gospel.

The church has no Levites or separate male Priesthood. Rather, all the believers in Christ, both male and female, are priests of God. Such a configuration is the opposite of the Old Testament, and for good reason. This was not an accident, but the divine plan of God.

Those today that claim a female cannot be an ordained pastor of a congregation, fail to understand the difference between the Old and the New Covenants. They are mired in an OC world where men were in full control and the law was the most important doctrine of all.

But this is all wrong. We live in the New Covenant where the Gospel trumps law and all are equal before God. Those who embrace OC doctrine, like the SDA’s, are repudiating of the Gospel and the teachings of Christ. They are the modern day Judaizers. No wonder they can’t understand the book of Galatians? It’s about them! So they look away and pretend otherwise.

The SDA’s Are Judaizers:

It is not surprising that those who claim women cannot be ordained like men, also hold to a long list of OC doctrines like Tithe, Food Laws, and the OC Sabbath, where it is sinful to work on the 7th day. These are all OC doctrines, and so too their outdated views about women.

This idea that women cannot be pastors is not a Gospel position. Rather, it is an OC view of the priesthood. Those who promote it are false teachers, wolves in sheep’s clothing, and enemies of the Gospel.

Today, the SDA’s are so Old Covenant minded that they are blind to the Gospel. This is why they obsess about the law, the OC Sabbath, and tithing. This is also why they think it wrong to eat certain foods and why women are not equal with men. They have fallen in love with the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant, which alone is salvific.

The SDA’s love the Old Covenant, not the New. They actually know very little about what the NC teaches, and this sad fact becomes more apparent every day. All should beware of the SDA’s; they are double-talking Judaizers who do not understand, nor embrace, the Gospel of Christ. Nor do they want to. The status quo is fine for this Denomination that has developed into a shadow of OC Judaism, complete with an all male hierarchy that is supported by the doctrine of tithe.

If the Adventist Community wants to understand the Gospel correctly, including this point about women in the ministry, both the men and the women, must repent for their Old Covenant, Judaizing ways, and become New Covenant Christians. This means they must stop paying tithe and pretending that they can’t work on the Sabbath. They must stop promoting the law over the Gospel and stop misusing the Scriptures to enforce their legions of false doctrine.

Adventist Women Need to Repent:

Those called to spread the Gospel, either male or female, must first and foremost understand the Gospel and the difference between the Two Covenants. This is the key to understanding all Christian doctrine.

Most women in the SDA church do not understand the Gospel correctly, even if they do not agree with the church’s incorrect view about women in the ministry. So the tithe paying women are just as wrong as the men all these years. They too are guilty of embracing numerous false doctrines, even as they have supported the many errors of the male church leaders all these years. So they too must repent for embracing a long list of errors before they will ever be ready to teach the Gospel correctly.

What is the point of allowing women to be ordained as Gospel preachers if they don’t know what they are talking about? Today, very few, if any of the men know the Gospel. Dr. Ford understood it best, but the all male leaders refused to admit their errors, and thus Dr. Ford was bullied out of the church, by men who were trying to protect their fragile male egos and defend their worthless positions. Men can be such fools, as most women have figured out by now.

It is not enough for women to demand their Gospel rights in the church, rather they must set their sights on better understanding the Gospel. The moment they do this, it will become obvious that Jesus is demanding that the last church must REPENT of its many false doctrines. Thus repentance and reform is the order of the day for the SDA’s, both for the men and the women.

However, the SDA women should not become like the men, who have proven themselves to be incompetent teachers and dishonest administrators, enemies of the Gospel. The men have been in charge for years, and they have ruined this church. Shame on them, and shame on the women that supported their corruption and error. It is time for the ladies to better understand their Gospel role, and to stop supporting the corrupt, all male hierarchy.

Let all the women beware; the teaching of the Gospel begins with a call to repentance, which is accompanied by correcting specific false doctrine, like tithe and the IJ, and on and on. If you want to teach the Gospel, which is a good thing, make sure you know what it is and what it is not. Otherwise, you are just wasting everyone’s time, including your own.

SDA’s Fight Gospel Reform:

Moreover, it is not easy to try and help the SDA’s. They are a very stubborn, arrogant, and dishonest group, one that is firmly committed to follow, not the Gospel, but as much of the OLD COVENANT as possible. This is why the church is organized and controlled by an all male hierarchy, supported by tithes from the people. As if the pastors are superior, like the Levites, and the church is the Temple storehouse for tithe, which pays them.

This is all wrong and against the Gospel. The SDA organizational system is a false, self-serving delusion that is absurd and blasphemous. There can be no tithe in the church, much less a separate, all male priesthood that is organized like the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church. This is madness, proving that the SDA’s are not even Protestant.

The SDA Community, like all others, must be confronted with the genuine Gospel, as well as the correct Sabbath of the NT. They must be warned to zealously repent of their many false doctrines, and re-organize, or become God’s enemy, unsaved and unprepared for the Judgment.

Let’s see if the SDA women have what it takes to promote genuine Gospel Reform in the church. It has become apparent that the men are not up to the task. They have fallen flat on their male faces for all to see.

Here is a link for more information about Adventist Reform:

http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewforum.php?id=11

While I am not going to give a detailed analysis of the debated passages, I will give you an overview of the issues with plenty of references for further study. I will also post this on the ATomorrow.net Forum for any that want further discussion.

Women in Ministry

Today, the SDA church is divided over women’s ordination. Those that are more liberal and educated are for it, while those that are more conservative, fundamentalist, and third world, are against it.

In typical SDA fashion, rather than find the Gospel truth about doctrine, and teach it, the modern church has embraced “Pluralism,” which means they are free to use double-talk to solve their doctrinal dilemmas. This is what has happened here. By changing some terminology, the leaders have found a way to try and get around this controversial issue without having to honestly resolve it. Sad.

Ordination of women

The church does not support women's ordination, although a title "commissioned" may be bestowed on female pastors in some regions of the world. General Conference Sessions in the 1990s discussed and voted on the issue, and the church's stance was affirmed.[86][87]

In 2010, the North American region of the church voted to allow commissioned pastors to lead a Conference or Mission, as well as ordained ones.[88]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventhday … nd_Worship

However, doctrinal debate cannot really be resolved by such word games. Thus the debate rages on in the confused SDA Community.

Men Against Women:

Many SDA’s, including Samuel Koranteng-Pipim, Bacchiocchi, and Doug Batchelor of Amazing Facts still think it very wrong for a woman to be an ordained or “commissioned” as a pastor. They cite the headship issue and a number of statements from Paul to make their case.

Here is Doug Batchelor's site:

Women's Ordination and the Bible (Amazing Facts view)

This website, which represents the historical Christian position, is dedicated to supporting women in ministry according to the scriptural model. We know, for instance, that in the beginning, God created both man and woman in His image, with equal value and dignity (Galatians 3:28).

Moreover, in the Bible, God clearly calls women to use their spiritual gifts in a myriad of different ministries (Joel 2:28, 29). At the same time, the Creator designed men and women with distinct gender traits and appointed them to embrace different roles within the family and the church.

It is Holy Scripture that calls men to be the spiritual leaders in these realms (1 Timothy 2:2–5). This site assembles some of the best scholarship and media on this subject from a Seventh-day Adventist perspective. Doug Batchelor of Amazing Facts

http://www.womenministrytruth.com/

http://www.atoday.com/content/doug-batc … en-pastors

Recent Debate:

In response to Batchelor's position, the Southeastern California Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, home to 169 churches and worship groups across parts of California, released the following statement (posted on their website) for its members.

"Members of the Southeastern California Conference Executive Committee voted on March 25 to adopt a document affirming the important, positive role of women in ministry. They took this action in response to a sermon preached by Doug Batchelor on February 6, 2010, at the Sacramento Central Seventh-day Adventist church in California.

Written in a spirit of Christian dialogue, the statement has been sent to Pastor Batchelor. A copy is posted here in the hope that it will be instructive and helpful for those considering the important issue of women in ministry."

http://www.atoday.com/content/secc-exec … n-ministry

http://secc.adventistfaith.org/assets/275673
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Doug Batchelor Responds:

An open letter from Doug Batchelor regarding the response to his
sermon, “Women’s Ordination: A Biblical Prospective”

On February 6, 2010, I presented a message to my home church in Sacramento, California, regarding the question: “Should women be ordained as pastors?” My conclusion, based on Scripture and church history, was no.

This sermon can be viewed at http://www.womenministrytruth.com

This conclusion is in harmony with the official position of the Seventh-day Adventist
Church. At the 1990 General Conference session, church leadership overwhelmingly voted not to ordain women as pastors. Here is the relevant wording in the 1990 vote below.

“2. Further, in view of the widespread lack of support for the ordination of women to the gospel ministry in the world church and in view of the possible risk of disunity, dissension and division from the mission of the church, we do not approve ordination of women to the gospel ministry.”

The full wording of the 1990 decision, plus a similar decision in 1995, can be viewed at http://www.womenministrytruth.com

Moreover, this position was recently upheld on April 7, 2010, by another overwhelming majority of our church leaders worldwide. At this meeting, division presidents emphasized that their reasons to uphold this interpretation were biblically based, not culturally based.

See http://news.adventist.org/2010/04/women … on-is.html

Fallout from Supporting the Official Church Position

My sermon on women’s ordination never aired on television, so I’m surprised how widely the video was seen just from it being posted on the Amazing Facts website. Regardless, being a sensitive subject, this generated significant response on both sides of the debate.

First, I would like to thank the many church members, leadership, and pastors who took time to call or write me with their words of affirmation and support.

At the same time, I have friends whom I love and respect on both sides of this issue. For those who disagree with me, I do apologize if I said anything in an unChrist-like spirit. However, I would invite you to look past this faulty messenger and consider the essence of the message. In retrospect, I probably shouldn’t have attempted to cover this important subject in a 60-minute sermon, but rather taken an additional week or two to explore it more in depth and address the common misconceptions and to explain my position more clearly.

On an Unfair Characterization

I’m sorry to say that some have deliberately tried to portray this sermon as some kind of general opposition to women in ministry.

Of course, this is absurd. I have always preached that every male and female in the church should be involved in ministry. Indeed, Amazing Facts leads two colleges, AFCOE www.afcoe.org and Weimar College www.weimar.edu that train women for ministry.

These graduates are now scattered around the globe doing mission work, conducting evangelistic meetings, and planting churches. A woman being empowered for ministry is a separate issue from a woman being ordained as a pastor.

In fact, it seems something of an insult to godly women around the world who are actively involved in a kaleidoscope of ministries to suggest that their value to God and the church is somehow diminished or invalidated if they are not being ordained as pastors.

At the same time, I freely confess that I am not among the great theologians in our church; however, the central point of my message is in harmony with the majority of respected Adventist scholars. When it comes to the biblical distinction between the roles of men and women, I believe even a shade tree theologian can see the Bible’s clear message on this subject.

Here is a small sample of scriptural principles that confirm male leadership in the church:

• From the Garden of Eden, God established male leadership within the family and church
(Genesis 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:13).

• While the Lord called the entire nation of Israel to be a kingdom of priests, only men were appointed to serve as priests for the sanctuary (Exodus12:3; 29:10; 1 Peter 2:9).

• While men and women were both called as prophets, only men ever offered sacrifices
(Leviticus 1:7, 8).

• Only men were anointed by God to serve as kings of Israel and Judah.

• “I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God” (1 Corinthians 11:3).

• Pastors, elders, and bishops should be “husband of one wife” (Titus 1:6; 1Timothy 3:2).

• While Jesus engaged women to share the gospel, He called only men to serve in the capacity of apostle. When Judas died, his replacement was chosen from among men
(Mark 3:14; Acts 1:21).

This is just the beginning of the evidence. But to avoid being tedious here, I invite you to get to know more at this website, http://www.womenministrytruth.com, which has comprehensive Bible answers on the issue of women’s ordination, including studies from several esteemed Adventist theologians and seminary professors.

Finally, despite the distinctions God has made regarding the roles of men and women, or how one might interpret these differences, He has called us all to act kindly with each other — as one body in Jesus (Galatians 3:28).

In Christ,

Doug Batchelor

http://www.womenministrytruth.com/

http://www.spectrummagazine.org/blog/20 … te-appears

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Here are more confused men against WO; Pipim and Dr. B.

(Against) Women's Ordination: The Evolving Arguments by Samuel Koranteng-Pipim:

http://www.greatcontroversy.org/wo/pip-evol.html

http://www.adventistsaffirm.org/article.php?id=157

http://www.adventistsaffirm.org/article.php?id=25

http://www.adventistsaffirm.org/article.php?id=139

http://www.presenttruthmag.com/verses-n … ervice.htm

http://www.adventistsaffirm.org/article.php?id=94

Samuele Bacchiocchi, Against WO

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/end … ti_44.html

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Women’s Ordination Correct

After reviewing all the arguments against WO, it become quickly obvious that those pastors, like Doug Batchelor, do not understand the Gospel or the teachings of Jesus. Rather, his pathetic attempts to defend the “scriptural principles that confirm male leadership in the church” are laughable.

This confused Jew is a paid apologist, not a real theologian. He is an expert at propaganda, doubletalk, and misdirection, ignorant of the Gospel. Like all SDA male pastors, he earns a living from the OC doctrine of tithe, and thus many are paid to embrace false doctrine, which explains why they are loath to bite the hand that feeds them. Thus money is the driving force behind all this debate in the SDA church. It’s all about money, power, and control. But the Gospel is not about any of those things.

It is amazing how wrong the SDA church is about most everything, and this issue about WO is no exception. Since when is Gospel doctrine trumped by “scriptural principles that confirm male leadership in the church?”

The real question is this: What does the Gospel teach about women in the church? Are they fully and truly priests of God? Or are they second-class citizens, not spiritually equal to men? The answer to this question is what matters.

While there are many dubious arguments used by both sides, the pro Women’s Ordination group has stumbled over the correct answer. They claim that the New Covenant,- with its fundamental doctrine of the Priesthood of All Believers,- is what controls this debate. This view is correct.

All are Priests in the NC, even women. This core theological fact trumps any misguided headship or cultural arguments, as well as anything that Paul would appear to teach. (No wonder the SDA’s can’t understand the Gospel Sabbath; they have rejected the doctrine of the Priesthood of all Believers, which is the basis for Jesus REFORMED, 7th day Sabbath. A new doctrine that the SDA’s do not even comprehend as yet.)

Rev. 1:6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father — to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

1Pet. 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1Pet. 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

"Males functioned as priests in the days of the biblical patriarchs as well as after God's covenant with Israel at Mount Sinai. With the move from Israel to the Christian church, however, a radical transformation occurred. A new priesthood is unfolded in the New Testament, that of all believers.

The Christian church is a fellowship of believer priests. Such an ecclesiology, such an understanding of the nature and mission of the church, no longer poses roadblocks to women serving in any ministry. It in fact demands a partnership of men and women in all expressions of the ordained ministry.

The recognition of the priesthood of all believers implies a church in which women and men work side by side in various functions and ministries, endowed with gifts distributed by the Holy Spirit according to his sovereign will (1 Cor 12:7-11)." 29. Women in Ministry

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/wim/index.htm

So not only is Doug Batchelor and the church wrong about Women in Ministry, they are also very wrong about tithe, the Sabbath, food laws, and many other things. Batchelor is just another confused Jew, (literally) who loves the Law and the OC Sabbath, Male supremacy, the IJ, and many other false doctrines. He has no idea how to define the Gospel because he is an enemy of the Gospel, just like his ancestors who killed Christ and who infiltrated the church with their false views about the law.

Here is some additional info about this debate:

Women's ordination issue not on World Session agenda,

http://news.adventist.org/2010/04/women … on-is.html

Adventist Church Manual; Revisions Move Forward

http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=2908

An Outline of the History of Seventh-day Adventists and the Ordination of Women

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/wo/appendix5.htm

Women in Ministry

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/wo/index.htm

http://www.womenpriests.org/related/ministry.asp

http://www.spectrummagazine.org/blog/20 … te-appears

http://adventist.org.au/newsevents/sout … la_simmons

http://tsdachurch.org/alpha/?p=315

http://www.religioustolerance.org/femclrg13.htm

http://www.cephaslibrary.com/seventh_da … risis.html

http://cafesda.blogspot.com/2009/05/ell … tials.html

I hope this answer gives you enough information to better understand the issues.

I wish you success as you try to help the confused SDA’s better understand the Gospel.

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform

Last edited by tom_norris (02-13-11 1:10 pm)

bob_2 · 06-27-11 7:53 pm

I think it is almost immoral to let women take classes making up a theology degree when they don't have rules that allow them to make a living when they, the University and the Church take their money for classes but are not talking about what goal they have and what goal they will permit the women to have. Clear, transparency must occur here on this topic or much damage can happen.

tom_norris · 12-06-11 10:29 am

Question:

Why do SDA's ignore Galatians 3. 28?

Christ ELEVATED women. Who FIRST were at the tomb while the MEN were shivering in an upper room. ? Who were at the foot of the Cross ? The woman at the well was the FIRST evangelist to Samaria. Unlike most forward thinking Protestants, SDA's are behind the times and stil fettered by Rome in denying ordination of women. Yet you make so much fuss over Ellen G. White. Get unfettered !

By the way, I was once an SDA until I saw the LIGHT.

Father Peter
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Tom Norris Answered: Today, every church, including the SDA’s, is full of false and wrong doctrine. Including the doctrine of the Sabbath or Lord’s Day, which all churches have very wrong, including the Adventists. No wonder Jesus teaches that the last church, meaning all denominations in Laodicea, are blind to the Gospel, unsaved, needing to repent or be lost.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

While many assume the Gospel is easy to understand, this is not true from either a doctrinal, historical, or empirical standpoint. Jesus teaches how difficult it is for the Gospel to be understood and embraced properly.

Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Luke 13:23 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them,

Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

This difficulty in understanding the Gospel explains why the apostolic church became so divided, (see Galatians) and why the Gentile Christians in Corinth had embraced at least four different versions of the Gospel, each following a different Christ.

1Cor. 1:11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you.

1Cor. 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”

2Cor. 11:4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

In the 21st century, the church is even more confused, disoriented, and divided, with numerous, false, views of Christ being promoted everywhere. Thus every wind of false doctrine is blowing through all churches today, which is why all Laodiceans are called upon by Christ to repent.

2Tim. 3:1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.

2Tim. 3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,

2Tim. 3:3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,

2Tim. 3:4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

2Tim. 3:5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

Woman’s Ordination

This point about women’s ordination in the SDA church is a reflection of their deep division, error, and confusion about the Gospel. Those that think women cannot be ordained pastors, spiritually equal to men, think this way because they have embraced an Old Covenant view of the Gospel. They are Judaizers that love the Law more than the Gospel.

These same advocates also think tithe is a valid church doctrine, and that their law keeping will be judged by God in heaven prior to the Second coming to see if they have been obedient enough to be saved. (The Investigative Judgment). While the SDA’s are trying to be true to the teachings of Moses in the Old Covenant, they fail to understand the New Covenant teachings of Jesus and the dramatic change that has taken place in the Priesthood.

The SDA’s are following the Old Covenant, not the New. This is why they keep the Sabbath like Old Covenant Jews by not working on that day. This is also why they tithe, and view their Pastors as being like the Levites, which were an all male priesthood. No females were allowed to be Priests, nor could women go very far into the Temple like men. Men and women were not spiritually equal in the OC, but this is not true of the NC.

Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Many SDA’s, including Samuel Koranteng-Pipim, the late Dr. Bacchiocchi, and Doug Batchelor of Amazing Facts, think it very wrong for a woman to be an ordained or “commissioned” as pastor. They cite the headship issue and a number of statements from the OC and Paul to make their case. However, none of these SDA’s understands the Gospel. They are all great legalists, not understanding the Gospel teachings of Christ.

See:

http://www.womenministrytruth.com/

http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2010/0 … -ministers

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=880

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … nistry.htm

The SDA’s Divided:

In response to Batchelor's Old Covenant position against women, the Southeastern California Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, home to 169 churches and worship groups across parts of California, released the following statement (posted on their website) for its members.

"Members of the Southeastern California Conference Executive Committee voted on March 25 to adopt a document affirming the important, positive role of women in ministry. They took this action in response to a sermon preached by Doug Batchelor on February 6, 2010, at the Sacramento Central Seventh-day Adventist church in California.

Written in a spirit of Christian dialogue, the statement has been sent to Pastor Batchelor. A copy is posted here in the hope that it will be instructive and helpful for those considering the important issue of women in ministry."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/29820169/Sout … -Batchelor

http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2010/0 … -batchelor

http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2010/0 … te-appears

http://www.womenministrytruth.com/porta … chelor.pdf

http://cafesda.blogspot.com/2010/03/dou … stors.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urxNd3yCdkE

http://endrtimes.blogspot.com/2010/06/d … women.html

http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2010/0 … en-pastors

Latest Action on Women’s Ordination

http://news.adventist.org/2011/11/north … adven.html

How To Understand Doctrine

The secret to correctly understanding all NT doctrine, including this debate about Women’s Ordination, is to properly separate and distinguish the Old Covenant law from the New Covenant Gospel. Without this important understanding, it will be impossible to know what is true doctrine for the church and what is not.

In other words, when the Gospel is correctly understood, the truth about Women in Ministry, Tithe, the Sabbath, food laws, the Judgment, and all else will become clear. The endless debating over doctrine will end because there is only one Gospel, one Lord and one NC view of the Sabbath, not many.

Today, there is great doctrinal confusion in the SDA church because the (all male) hierarchical, leaders have incorrectly blended and mixed the OC with the NC, developing a hybrid Gospel that is distorted, worthless, and wrong. Like the Judaizers in the apostolic church, the SDA’s also misunderstand the law and the Gospel and consequently they promote one doctrinal error after another, including this idea that only men may be ordained in the church.

Question: Where does this idea about the all male priesthood originate?

Answer: The Old Covenant. Judaism did not allow any female Priests, ONLY males.

Question: Did this ever change?

Answer: Yes. The NT has a very different view of the Priesthood.

The New Covenant is very different from the Old. That’s why it is called “New,” and also why it is separated from the OT in all versions of the Bible. Thus, the NC has a different view of the Sabbath, as well as church organization and finance, and especially the Priesthood. To misunderstand this theological point is to misunderstand the entire Gospel.

The church has neither Levites nor a separate (male) Priesthood. Rather, all the believers in Christ, both male and female, are priests of God, with Jesus as the High Priest. Such a configuration is very different the Old Testament, and for good reason. This was not an accident, but the divine plan of God.

Those today that claim a female cannot be an ordained pastor of a congregation fail to understand the difference between the Old and the New Covenants. They are mired in an OC world where men were in full control and the law was the most important doctrine of all.

But this is all wrong. We live in the New Covenant where the Gospel trumps law and all are equal before God. Those who embrace OC doctrine, like the SDA’s, are repudiating of the Gospel and the teachings of Christ just like the 1st century Jews. Thus the SDA’s are the modern day Judaizers. No wonder they can’t understand the Gospels or the book of Galatians? It’s about them! So they look away and pretend otherwise.

The SDA’s Are Judaizers:

It is not surprising that those who claim women cannot be ordained like men, also hold to a long list of OC doctrines like Tithe, Food Laws, and the OC Sabbath, where it is sinful to work on the 7th day. These are all OC doctrines, and so too their outdated views about women.

In fact, Jesus teaches that this male-female situation is only temporary. After the resurrection, there will be no male or female, which explains why it is foolish to think that heaven has placed less of a value on females. In the new earth there will be no male or female. All will be the same gender as the angels.

Mark 12:19 “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that IF A MAN’S BROTHER DIES and leaves behind a wife AND LEAVES NO CHILD, HIS BROTHER SHOULD 1MARRY THE WIFE AND RAISE UP CHILDREN TO HIS BROTHER.

Mark 12:20 “There were seven brothers; and the first took a wife, and died leaving no children.

Mark 12:21 “The second one married her, and died leaving behind no children; and the third likewise;

Mark 12:22 and so all seven left no children. Last of all the woman died also.

Mark 12:23 “In the resurrection, when they rise again, which one’s wife will she be? For all seven had married her.”

Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God?

Mark 12:25 “For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Let all understand that this male-female situation does not extend to the New Earth. There is not going to be any gender division in heaven. So why pretend in the church? Unlike the OC, men and women in the NC are spiritually equal. In the New Earth they will also be physically the same.

This idea that women cannot be pastors is not a Gospel position. Rather, it is an OC view of the priesthood. Those who promote it are false and incompetent teachers; legalistic wolves in sheep’s clothing and enemies of the Gospel and women.

Today, the SDA’s are so Old Covenant minded that they are blind to the Gospel. This is why they obsess about the law, the OC Sabbath, and tithing. This is also why they think it wrong to eat certain foods and why women are not spiritually equal with men, and why they are not allowed to be ordained. Like the Jews, they have fallen in love with the Old Covenant, and have rejected Christ.

The SDA’s actually know very little about what the NC teaches, and this sad fact becomes more apparent every day. All should beware of the SDA’s; they are double-talking Judaizers who do not understand, nor embrace, the Gospel of Christ, nor his doctrine of the Sabbath. Nor do they want to. The status quo is fine for this Denomination that has developed into a shadow of OC Judaism, complete with an all male hierarchy that is supported by the doctrine of tithe. Shame on them!

If the Adventist Community wants to understand the Gospel correctly, including this point about women in the ministry, both the men and the women, must repent for their Old Covenant, Judaizing ways, and become New Covenant Christians.

This means they must REPENT and stop paying tithe and stop teaching that it is wrong to work on the active and reformed 7th day Sabbath of Christ. They must also stop promoting the law over the Gospel and stop misusing the Scriptures to enforce their legions of false doctrine.

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com and Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 08-20-12 11:33 am

Pacific Union Constituents Vote to Ordain Without Regard to Gender

The Pacific Union Conference constituency voted to ordain to the pastoral ministry without regard to gender by a vote of 79% to 21% today; however a vote to change the bylaws failed.

http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2012/0 … ard-gender

---Breaking Church News--

A Response to the Action of the Pacific Union Conference
Constituency Meeting on Sunday, August 19, 2012

http://www.adventistreview.org/article/ … uency-vote

tom_norris · 09-20-12 1:51 pm

Holy Disagreements! The Review publishes some opinions about this ongoing SDA debate:

http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.ph … 525&page=4

In this special edition of Inbox, the letters below represent a sampling of opinion and thought from a variety of readers who took the time to write us in regard to our coverage of recent meetings on ordination. As always, we welcome your responses.--Editors.

http://www.adventistreview.org/article/ … ur-readers

Luke 6:39 And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

cadge · 09-25-12 1:12 pm

Joel 2:28-29
King James Version (KJV)
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
--
Not too difficult to see.
--
And,

1 Corinthians 11:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

1 Corinthians 11:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

Angels are messengers to us. When a woman stands in the assembly of believers to preach/prophesy, she is given revelation and power to do so by God through the ministry of His angels. She needs to have her head covered though in order to symbolically demonstrate her submission and receive the gift from the Lord. That's why most women used to wear hats in the assembly of the believers, and some still do. God never did away with that, man did. This whole issue is not about feminism, by the way. That spirit destroys the order of God. God has set up an order in the society of heaven and on earth. On earth in the church and the family. There is a heirarchy and a chain of command that God has established. No system can succeed without an intelligent order to follow. If we can change the order, then how can we trust God? The independent spirit that caused the rebellion in Heaven and brought us to the dilemmas that continually fall upon the experience of mankind was the foundation that Lucifer stood upon to destroy God's order. When we choose to change the order, we join in the spirit of the enemy of God and His established order. There is no life for anyone in His eternal society that seeks to alter or rebel against His order of society whether it be in Heaven, the church, or the family. We are either seeking to be one with Him in His heart through the transforming power of His Holy Spirit, or we are not. We either come, by reasoning with Him, to trust and follow His "way, truth, and life" or we will follow our own impulses of the flesh and the influences of others that do not feel they need to follow His established ways. Eternal life is perpetuated by His Spirit flowing through His body of followers that are in unity to His way of life, both here and in Heaven.

So, as far as woman's ordination goes, "Let all things be done decently and in order" 1 Cor. 14:40.

A simple kerchief would suffice. You have to admit, the hat thing did get a bit beyond simple in many cases, outlandish even.

Cadge

Last edited by cadge (09-25-12 1:14 pm)

tom_norris · 10-23-12 10:17 pm

Subject: SDA ordination of womens

Question for Tom Norris:

I was very happy at Tom Norris' reply.

Obviously many forward thinking SDA's are changing, not only your California Conference but I believe the Columbia Union Conference.

You main stumbling block would appear to be your General Conference President, Ted Wilson.

I knew Teddy when he was a little boy with his parents in Egypt. His father Neal Wilson, President of the Nile Union , later G.C. President was a wonderful, broad minded forward thinking man. I loved him in the fellowship of Christ.

Once we followed Exodus and kept to the Children of Israel's journey from Cairo to Sinai. We slept by the Red Sea, crossed in felukhas, stopped at the bitter waters, and the oasis of Rephadim. With balloon tires and often being stuck in the sand it took us three days to reach the plateau where Mount Moses and Mount Elijah, sit and stayed in the St Catherine's Monastery.

Very early in the am while dark we climbed the peak for a sunrise Prayer service.

A spiritual high I will never forget.

Were he still G.C. President, I think you would be very close to the Ordination of Women.

Father Peter
Virginia, United States
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply;

Today, in North America, the Advent Movement is self-destructing for all to see. They have “stumbled” into a deep ditch, and they cannot seem to find their way out.

After Glacier View, in 1980, the Denomination lost both credibility and mission. Millions of members have left the church in the last 30 years, and many of these former members are still angry and upset with Adventism. Thus the negative ratings of the SDA’s go up by the day.

For those who appreciate the eschatological contributions of the Advent Movement, this is a tragic turn of events, one that did not have to take place.

Today, the Advent Movement is dying. Without proper action, the SDA’s will die out. They are getting very close to full meltdown. I don’t think Ted Wilson knows what to do or how to do it.

I find it ironic that the theological debate inherited by Neil Wilson, which led to Glacier View, is now being inherited by the son. Except the son has the benefit of hindsight, and all the facts, if he wants them. But he seems not to understand any of this past history.

Neil Wilson Allowed Research

As you say, Neal Wilson was forward thinking. In 1978, when I was a younger man, he granted my request to do some sensitive research about 1888 in the General Conference Archives. Over the objections of Arthur White, he also paved the way for me to enter the White Estate vault, a rare privilege even to this day.

I spent over a year in the GC Archives and about three months in the White Estate. What I found was remarkable, even stunning. But the leaders were so embarrassed, they hid this information from the church, pretending nothing was found. Sad.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … uments.htm

So I owe a debt of gratitude to him, and so too does the church. Why? Because now we know the truth about what happened in Battle Creek, even as we know that the White Estate had been manipulating and suppressing Ellen White’s writings from the start of Arthur White’s long career.

But the discovery came too late to stop Glacier View. Had this research been done earlier, the present schism could have been avoided. Instead there should have been a trial against Arthur White for orchestrating a massive fraud about Ellen White and church doctrine. Simply put, the wrong man, Dr. Ford, was put on trial at Glacier View. Unless this great error is corrected, the SDA’s are doomed.

New Leaders Must Act

Ted has an opportunity to take the next step and act upon the research that his father allowed to take place. What does he have to lose? The SDA church is dying; the old myths and errors will no longer work. The eschatology is outdated, the mission is gone and so too the people.

What does he have to win? Everything.

Saving the Advent Movement and restoring the Fundamentals of the Three Angels Message is the duty of the day for the SDA’s. The rehabilitation of Ellen White and the establishment of “present truth” for the 21st century will bring back the members, along with many more millions who seek truth.

Adventism is eschatological in nature and thus it must be forward thinking. The 3rd Angels Message is over. Time for the Advent Movement to repent for their past errors and go forward to develop the 4th Angels Message. This is what the son should do. I think this is what his dad would want him to do. He would say: “Go forward within the Three Angels Messages.”

In the days of Glacier View, those who fought so hard to protect their past traditions, won the battle by removing Dr. Ford and preserving the IJ, but they lost the war. Adventism is no longer viewed as credible, honest, or true as a result.

Glacier View was based on fraudulent information from the White Estate. This is what the research proved, and this is what must become known to the Adventist Community and the record corrected. Traditional, Takoma Park Adventism is not valid or true. It does not represent what Ellen White supported, as claimed by the White Estate.

After Neil Wilson retired, I met with him a few times at the GC to discuss my research. We never talked much about the details, more in broad terms, although I know he spoke with many others about it. He point blank denied knowing that the White Estate was hiding thousands of Ellen White documents, and I believe him. Very few knew what was really going in the White Estate.

After he retired, he became sad about how things had turned out for the church. He knew the White Estate had a big problem.

Of course Arthur White was forced to retire, and new management came in and tried to make some changes. But there has been no confession, much less a correction of the record. And until this happens, the SDA’s will never be able to become united over the fundamentals because they don’t understand what they really are.

Present Debate Not Enough

The present debate about Women’s Ordination, however it turns out, will not solve the larger problem. What is the point of having women “ordained” if they are only going to teach a false Gospel and confused version of Adventism? What kind of ordination is that?

I think if Neil Wilson were in charge today, he would tell the truth to the church. He had that choice at one time, and he chose to protect the White Estate and the Traditional wing of the church. But in hindsight, it was a great mistake.

The White Estate has been the problem all along. Dr. Ford was correct on all points. The last 30 years could have been so much better for the Advent Movement had they told the truth about this massive fraud in the White Estate.

Ted has an opportunity to repair the damage from Glacier View, and bring the Advent Movement into the 21st century, --shifting the paradigm from the failing 3rd Angels Message to the Gospel based 4th.

This is what all the Takoma Park Adventists wanted, including his father, even though they did not understand things very well. They called it the loud cry of Rev 18. It was viewed as a future time when this small Denomination would came alive with Gospel power and eschatological insight, - the world beating a path to it’s door to embrace the 7th day Sabbath.

If Ted Wilson fails to do the right thing, this will be the end of line for the SDA’s. Others will pick up their mission and message, and the Advent Movement will go forward in Gospel Truth.

Let’s hope that Ted Wilson has what it takes to act on the research that his father promoted way back in 1978. If he does, he can be a great man by promoting Gospel Reform and repositioning Adventism for the 21st century. If not, he can complete the demise of the SDA’s that started in 1980.

Thank you for sharing your insights.

Tom Norris for All Experts & Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 11-23-13 4:00 pm

Question for Tom Norris:

Of course S.D. Adventism has been on the wrong side of women's ordination for decades (although there is a new gender inclusive progressive movement). But it has recently come to my attention that my church, that claims to have THE Truth, is all wrong when it comes to ordination in general, period.

Does our misunderstanding of Ordination account for why churches, in general, have become institutions and not churches?

Marvin, Florida
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom Norris answered:

Marvin,

The SDA church, of which I am still a member, is divided and confused about many things, including Women’s Ordination. For example, they are also wrong about how they are organized and how they practice the Lord’s Supper. They are even wrong about the doctrine of the Sabbath, which is their primary teaching.

Who knew there were so many errors within modern Adventism? There is a very long list of mistakes that must be corrected, including what they teach about eschatology and how the world will end.

Why are there so many errors within the SDA church today?

Answer: Because the SDA’s have not been honest about the Gospel or church history. The leaders today are not looking to follow Gospel Truth, but to build an Empire for them to manage and control. This is why they have also created a tithe based, anti-Gospel system that silences freedom of speech and prevents correction and reform.

More than that, the Adventists have embraced a false Gospel, one that comes with legions of false doctrines, myths, and errors. And they refuse to repent and reform. They refuse correction, just like the Jews that also rejected the Gospel. This is why so many millions have left.

The Gospel is not an institutional doctrine, but a very personal and individual one. We are all saved individually, not in groups or because of any denomination.

Rom. 12:5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

1Cor. 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

1Cor. 12:27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.

We are each saved “individually,” by Christ, not by the SDA’s or by any organization. And we will all have to stand and give an account for what we believe and why.

2Cor. 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rom. 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

The present configuration of the SDA church is modeled after the Old Covenant, not the NC. This is why they tithe, pretending that the Pastors are Levites, with the people subordinate to this ruling class.

This is also why they think a woman cannot be an ordained pastor, because no Levite Priest could be female.

Such OC thinking is wrong; against the Gospel and the teachings of Christ.

There can be no top down hierarchy in the church, much less an elite, priestly male class that is paid by the tithe from a lower class.

All are equal in the church; all are priests of God, both men and women. There can be no tithing, much less any doctrine that treats women as second-class members of the kingdom of God.

Those today that claim a woman cannot be ordained, are following the Old Covenant law where it was against the law for any woman to be a priest. These legalistic and sexists minded types also embrace tithing, which is another false doctrine closely related to the women’s ordination issue. Thus there is systemic and fundamental error within confused Adventism that must be corrected. They do not understand the NC correctly.

See:

Women's Ordination
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=880

Today, the SDA church is self-destructing for a reason. Millions and millions of baptized members have left, mostly since 1980, and millions more will leave. Adventism is dying right in front of our eyes, and for good reason.

“Glacier View, Results In: Millions Leave SDA Church”
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … 904#p11904

The leaders have long ago rejected the Gospel, as well as the Protestant fundamentals of the Advent Movement. They have created an unholy system to control, mislead, and extort the people, and now the entire sham is being exposed for all to see.

The error relating to women’s ordination is only symptomatic of the systemic doctrinal failure of modern Adventism.

If the SDA’s understood the “Priesthood of All Believers,” they would repudiate their absurd OC views about church organization, tithe, and women’s ordination. Which is what they must do anyway, if they want to survive.

The Adventist Community needs Gospel Reform in the worst way. The present course is not sustainable or correct.

It is time for Old Covenant, institutionalized, hierarchical, Adventism to be removed. Replaced with a New Covenant, congregational based denomination that repudiates tithe, and a top down hierarchy, as well as many other serious errors.

It is time for the local churches to keep all their resources for the benefit of the members. Even as it is time for those that lead, - to serve, and not be served.

It is time for the Adventist Community to embrace the Gospel with both hands, including the active and reformed NC Sabbath of Christ, which is the true Sabbath of Christ.

It is time for NC Adventism, where all are equal, priests of God.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform

l_miller · 11-24-13 1:16 pm

Women's Ordination

I *belong* to no denomination. I am a strict Biblican, the Bible and the Holy Spirit is my guidance, so I have little knowledge of the doctrines of denominations. I am just curious. Since Christ doesn't directly teach on this subject, what is the thought of the Adventists Reform on Paul's teachings of the role of women in the Church?

Kevin from Lawrence, Indiana

bob_2 · 11-24-13 2:33 pm

You mean this text:

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

or this one:

1 Tim 2:11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

or

Titus 2:1 You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine. 2 Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.

3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

What do you think? This why the church is wrestling with this issue, the more conservative churches, Presbyterians will never allow women pastors from what I saw when I attend one for about 10 years.

Last edited by bob_2 (11-24-13 2:36 pm)

bob_2 · 11-24-13 2:39 pm

What's a Biblican : a pelican that reads the scriptures?

tom_norris · 08-18-15 4:17 pm

The Rejection of Women’s Ordination: What Does It Mean? By Tom Norris, August 2015.

One of the first articles to analyze the doctrinal rejection of WO was published online at AToday; Reflections on San Antonio; by Caleb Rosado, July 12, 2015.

http://atoday.org/reflections-on-san-antonio.html

In the typical SDA style of diversion and denial, the author marginalizes the issues and quickly glosses over this doctrinal debate as if there was nothing theological involved. Pretending he has found the problem, he points, not to any doctrinal error, but to “cultural differences.” “The decision," he wrote, “was based on culture, pure and simple.” Theology is not the issue.

Such an incompetent misdiagnosis of the problem is the reason why the SDA’s are self-destructing. They refuse to admit they have any serious theological problems, even as millions leave the church over doctrine. The SDA’s are delusional to think they have not embraced legions of false doctrine, or that the WO issue is not about serious theology. Such blindness makes it impossible to find truth or repent.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Listen again to this misdiagnosis that claims theology is NOT the problem:

“The decision was not based on theology, or the leading of the Holy Spirit, or the will of God, no matter how many ‘Amens’ were shouted; because God is not that confused, emotional, irrational, divisive and anthropomorphic. The decision was based on culture, pure and simple.”

http://atoday.org/reflections-on-san-antonio.html

Let everyone understand: the debate about WO is not about culture whatsoever. Rather, it is all about theology, and the inevitable clash between the Old and New Covenants.

1st Century Culture Against Women

The Gospel was first preached in a 1st century world where women were subordinate to men. The male dominated Jews were no exception. Women in Judaism were not the spiritual equals of men, which is why they could not enter the Temple as far as the men, nor could they ever become a Levitical priest. Women had few rights, even as they were considered property, controlled by their fathers, and then their husbands. They were also considered ritually unclean for seven days of the month, something that never happens to a man.

“In ancient Israel the Jewish culture was one of the most male dominant cultures in the whole world.”

“In ancient Judaism the woman only had rights in the home and even that was very limited. The man had authority over his wife and daughters establishing their activities and their relationships.

Women were passed from the control of her father to the control of her husband with little or no say in the matter. They were sold for a dowry settlement usually when they came of age. The Mishnah taught that a woman was like a gentile slave who could be obtained by intercourse, money or writ (m. Qidd 1:1).

Women could not play a significant role in the synagogue because they were levitically unclean for several days every month during their menstrual cycle. Women were not even counted as members in a synagogue count. They did not recite the daily shema, they did not read the Torah in the synagogue (Ber 3:3), they were not required to come to any feasts or festivals, and the Mishnah says:

"The observance of all the positive ordinances that depend on the time of year is incumbent on men but not on women…"

“Women were only allowed to receive very little education on religion and the main religious instruction in the home was given by the man and not the woman. They could not be disciples of any great rabbi, they certainly could not travel with any rabbi.”

“In court a woman’s testimony was considered suspect (m. Ned. 11:10). Women also did not have the right to divorce.”

http://www.bible-history.com/court-of-women/women.html

“In fact, the first century Jewish man thanked God that he was not born ‘a Gentile, a slave, or a woman.’”

“This was one element in a prayer of thanksgiving that was in the ancient Jewish prayer book. Teachings in the Talmud emphasized however that every individual possessed equality, dignity, and self-worth. But in practice this equality was defined in terms of strict male-female roles…”

“Jesus dealing with women, for example his readiness to speak to and help the Samaritan woman (John 4), contrasted strongly with prevailing attitudes. In the New Testament Jesus often referred to women in his parables and included them among his disciples. In the early church, women helped spread the gospel and prophesied.”

http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/v … 040008.htm

See also:

The status of women in the Christian Gospels
http://www.religioustolerance.org/cfe_bibl.htm

Women in Ancient Israel
http://www.bible-history.com/court-of-women/women.html

Roman Women
http://www.pbs.org/empires/romans/empire/women.html

https://ladiesofphilippi.wordpress.com/ … n-culture/

In Jewish culture, as well as the rest of the world, it is clearly established that women in the Old Covenant were not equal to men. They could not be as spiritual or educated, much less enter the priesthood, which was for men only. But what about the New Covenant. Is there a change in how women are viewed?

New Covenant Doctrine & Women

How does the NC view women in the church? In spite of the prevailing and overwhelming anti-female culture and religion of the 1st century, the early Jewish church treated women as spiritually EQUAL to men. AND they viewed them as Priests of God, with Jesus being the High priest.

Thus, the radical teachings of the New Covenant repudiated the male domination of the Old Covenant, even in the Priesthood. Just as food and the Gentiles were no longer considered unclean in the NC, so too women. The OC rules and culture no longer applied. Proving that the Gospel is very anti-culture and pro female. (The fact that American culture views women, as equal to men, is an aberration in human history. The normative view is male dominated and Old Covenant, just like 1st century culture.)

Gospel doctrine disregards tradition, culture, and Law. This is because theological truth is not controlled or defined by culture. Viewing women as spiritual equals was a remarkable and transparent paradigm shift away from the prevailing Old Covenant doctrine and culture. It was one of the reasons why the Christian Faith took hold and survived in the 1st century. The Gospel empowered and uplifted women in a dramatic manner, breaking many taboos in the process.

Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

New Covenant teaching about women was stunning and radically different from the religious and culture norms of the 1st century. Thus disproving this recent 21st century SDA excuse that the WO debate is about culture and not theology. Such views are absurd and false. They are promoted as a diversion from the real issues that are forbidden to be discussed.

What took place at San Antonio was this: The Old Covenant Jewish views about women in the Priesthood prevailed over New Covenant theology. Period.

The ancient, male dominated, Old Covenant culture has risen up in the SDA church and repudiated the Gospel. Why? Because the SDA’s are legalists. They have long ago become an Old Testament denomination that misunderstands and repudiates the Gospel. Culture has nothing to do with it.

The 1st century Jews acted the same way. They too rejected the theological advancements from Christ about women and the priesthood, even as they sent Jesus to the cross for breaking the Old Covenant traditions and culture about the Sabbath. If only the Jews had understood that the OC was a temporary paradigm that was to be updated and dramatically revised into the NC, things would have been different. The SDA’s need to also understand that the 3rd Angels Message is temporary, scheduled to be replaced with another message, the 4th, that is NC based, not OC based.

Was Jesus sent to the cross because of cultural or theological differences? The answer is both; by introducing the NC, Jesus broke both the cultural and theological rules of the day. He taught a new and very different doctrine about the Sabbath, Temple, and the Priesthood, which also included women.

The OC is not to be confused with, or combined with, the NC. They are separate and distinct paradigms. The SDA’s have not only violated this Protestant fundamental, they have embraced the Old Covenant with both hands, repudiating the Gospel, as well as the Protestant Faith over and over.

The issue about WO represents the ancient debate between the Old and New Covenants. The SDA’s have once again voted to follow the Old Covenant. No surprise. This is how they have been acting since 1888, and this is also why they are self-destructing.

1888-Old Covenant vs. NC Debate

The debate about WO is the same basic Gospel debate that started in the Gospels with the NC teachings of Christ. After the cross, this clash between the Two Covenants continued in the early church with the OC minded Circumcision Party eventually morphing into the RCC. Which is why this same Gospel debate became the focus of the Reformation. Thus there has always been two different views of the Gospel in the church, one that based on the OC, and a more correct version that is not.

The legalistic SDA’s fell into this same debate in 1888 where the original Galatian debate was featured and hotly discussed. How ironic. However, the Gospel reformers, which included Ellen White, lost. Thus, the 19th century SDA’s embraced the OC Law with both hands, choosing to promote an OC view of the Sabbath as their primary doctrine.

As a result, 14 years after 1888, the Battle Creek Empire collapsed, thanks to a “brood of Old Covenant” men that refused to submit to the Gospel. Uriah Smith was the leader of this legalistic insurgency. And to this day, such OC men, as Arthur White, Froom and many others have made sure that the SDA’s remain an OC church. Ted Wilson, the President only knows OC Adventism, and so too his father before him. The SDA’s have been ruined by an evil group of men that have pledged loyalty, not to Christ or Ellen White, but to Moses and Uriah Smith.

Writing to Willie White in 1902, A.G. Daniels lamented the existence within Adventism of what he called, “the whole brood of old covenant men who are continually raising doubts and unbelief regarding the light that came at the Minneapolis meeting”

(A.G. Daniels to W.C. White, April 14, 1902, in Manuscripts and Memories of Minneapolis, p. 321).

http://www.lightbearers.org/the-old-covenant-brood/

A decade after the 1888 debates, it became clear to the Battle Creek community that Waggoner and Ellen White's attempt at Gospel reform was doomed. Consequently, the members flocked out of this OC denomination that refused Gospel reform. So too many leaders, such as Waggoner, AT Jones, and of course, JH Kellogg. By 1903 the Battle Creek Empire was in ruins, both literally and figuratively. The retreat to Takoma Park was a direct result of rejecting Gospel Reform in 1888.

Fearing a repeat of 1888 debacle in Takoma Park, the 20th century leaders vowed to hide the theological details of this infamous debate. Not only did they hide the debate that brought down the Battle Creek Empire, they also made up false versions to fill the void. The consequences of such dishonesty and malpractice can be seen in the confusion and demise of modern Adventism.

Misunderstanding their true Battle Creek history, the modern SDA’s simply repeated the same old mistakes in Takoma Park, and now in Silver Spring. Both Glacier View, and now the WO vote, underscores the sad fact that the SDA’s love the OC and have no plans to embrace NC Gospel Reform. They are blind to the NC, just like the Jews.

Rom. 2:17 But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God,

Rom. 2:18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law,

Rom. 2:19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,

Rom. 2:20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,

Rom. 2:21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?

Rom. 2:22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?

Rom. 2:23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?

Rom. 2:24 For “THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU,” just as it is written.

Rom. 2:25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

Ellen White warned the SDA’s, before and after 1888, not to become like the Jews. But they never listened to her as they pretend. They have become as blind as the Jews. Listen to Ellen White.

"We want to understand the time in which we live. We do not half understand it. We do not half take it in. My heart trembles in me when I think of what a foe we have to meet, and how poorly we are prepared to meet him. “

“The trials of the children of Israel, and their attitude just before the first coming of Christ, have been presented before me again and again to illustrate the position of the people of God in their experience before the second coming of Christ—how the enemy sought every occasion to take control of the minds of the Jews, and today he is seeking to blind the minds of God’s servants, that they may not be able to discern the precious truth."

Ellen White; 1SM 406.

The SDA’s have repeated the sad history of the Jews. Unless they repent and embrace Gospel Reform, they will be destroyed like the Jews.

WO & The Two Covenants

It should be obvious that WO is all about theology, specifically the clash between the Old and New Covenants; between Law and Gospel, Moses and Christ. Those that are against WO, do so because they are following the Old Covenant theology of male dominance, as well as many other OC doctrines, such as tithing and Sabbath keeping.

Within this legalistic theological paradigm, women were not spiritually equal to men, nor could they ever become priests. Today, when such OC theology is applied to the present discussion about WO, the natural outcome is to deny that women are spiritually equal to men, and thus deny them ordination. OC theology should not be inserted into the NC. This is a serious and fatal mistake.

Gal. 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.

Gal. 2:13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Gal. 2:15 “We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;

Gal. 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

The New Covenant is very different from the Old Covenant, but the SDA’s have not figured this out as yet. They came close to embracing the NC in 1888; but in never happened. And the SDA’s have been OC ever since. THIS is why they are imploding today. They have once again rejected the NC for all to see. Just like the Jews. They have placed their faith in the OC Law.

When it comes to the issue of WO in the NC; Gospel women are spiritually equal to men. To prove this point they are also considered full priests of God, just like the men, with Jesus the High Priest. Thus the Priesthood of all Believers, a Protestant fundamental, validates WO. (Rome takes the OC view, which is why a female can never be either a priest or pope.) NC theology clearly supports WO. And so too does the civil and cultural equality laws of America.

Let everyone understand: the debate about WO is not about culture, but rather a reflection of how one views the Two Covenants. It is also a repeat of the original Galatian debate, where the leading apostles embraced the Old Covenant, dividing the church to this very day.

Just as the early church, and then the Roman church, became legalistic and Old Covenant minded, so too the SDA’s. They are full of Old Covenant Jewish doctrines, like tithing, food laws, and obedience to the 4th Commandment, --all of which are very wrong in the New Covenant. They have driven away many that are serious about the Gospel. This is why millions have left.

One problem is that the SDA’s are not paying attention to their own doctrinal development. They marginalize any theological conflict and try to suppress serious discussion at all costs. This shows that they no longer seek truth as they are too focused on hiding their previous debates, refusing to admit any errors. This is a great mistake. How can the SDA’s learn from their past mistakes if they cover them up and deny them?

The Reformation in general was a prolonged clash between NC and OC theology. Luther made it clear that the separation of law and Gospel is critical to properly understanding the New Covenant, even as the blending of the Law with the Gospel was the fatal theological error of Rome. But the SDA’s have turned away from serious Protestant theology. Their ears have turned to stone and their eyes no longer see. They don’t seem to care about theology or hermeneutics, church history, or even truth.

Unless the SDA’s can repent of their OC ways and return to the NC, they will continue to self-destruct.

Unless they embrace the truth that the NC is superior to the OC, and come clean about what happened in 1888, repenting in tears, they are doomed.

Unless they repent for Glacier View, and for thinking that the OC contains the Pre- Advent Judgment of the NC church, and for slandering Dr. Ford, they are fuel for the fires of hell.

The WO issue underscores the fact that most of the worldwide SDA’s, and many of their top leaders, are permanently mired in the OC. They don’t understand the NC, nor do they want to learn. They are acting just like the 1st century Jews, for which they will also pay a sad price.

There is a well-established pattern of theological conflict between the teachings of the OC and the NC that is still unfolding today. Unfortunately, for the SDA’s, they have embraced the OC over the NC at every opportunity. This is what happened in 1888 and 1980 with the Glacier View debacle. And, again in 2015 with WO. Proving that the SDA’s are an Old Covenant church that has embraced the anti-Gospel theology of Judaism and Rome. Paul correctly condemns the SDA’s.

Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

The SDA’s are very much like the Old Covenant Jews; they don’t understand or believe the Gospel. They are trapped, by choice, in the OC for all to see. This is the real meaning of San Antonio. The rejection of WO is just one of a number of fatal theological mistakes that is destroying the once Protestant, Advent Movement.

Stop The Double-talk About 1888

It is time for straight talk within the Adventist Community. While this AToday article is correct to understand that the Denomination is divided, confused, and polarized over the issue of WO, and that more schism is ahead, the author’s assessment of the underlying problem is trite, dishonest, and misleading. The debate about WO is not about culture. Rather, the SDA’s are divided over the definition of the Gospel, of which WO’s is a telling issue.

This diversionary and false assessment about culture and WO sounds very much like the typical double-talk from the White Estate about 1888. It was the Denominations long held position that “personalities” were the primary reason for this infamous 1888 debate, not theology. Anything but doctrine.

Of course, as the White Estate promoted this diversionary and knowingly false myth, they were hiding thousands of documents that detailed the infamous theological debate. And to this day, they refuse to confess that there has been a massive cover-up about Ellen White’s 1888 writings.

Hidden Documents in White Estate
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … uments.htm

While there were obviously people involved in 1888, and thus personalities, the real issues were all about the Old Covenant versus the New Covenant, and how this affected SDA doctrine, especially the Sabbath. It was a heated theological debate between Luther’s view of the Law Galatians, as promoted by EJ Waggoner, versus Uriah Smiths Roman Catholic interpretation used to uphold the 4th Commandment.

Let everyone understand; 1888 was a theological debate about Law and Gospel that has never been fully understood or addressed, much less resolved by the SDA’s. This is the real problem that is destroying the Advent Community. The 1888 Gospel debate should never have been hidden from the 20th century Adventist Community, much less the 21st. It was done so by those that championed the OC views of Uriah Smith. And those that love the OC are still suppressing this history today.

The Denomination’s story about 1888 has turned out, not only to be false, but part of a massive cover-up involving Ellen Whites 1888 writings. The dishonest White Estate knew all along that the 1888 debate was about serious theology, just like the WO debate. But the Takoma Park apologists liked Uriah Smith’s OC theology, and hated Waggoner and Ellen White’s NC views. So they hid Ellen White’s true 1888 position and pretended that she sided with Smith, when she did not. The White Estate is guilty of a massive and long running fraud, for which they must repent and correct the record.

To this very day, the White Estate has not honestly explained the 1888 theological debates. Nor do they want to get into any such discussion over this topic that proves them dishonest and incompetent. The suppression of the 1888 debates has prevented Adventism from learning from their past mistakes; thus condemning them to repeat the same errors that destroyed Battle Creek.

This pattern of suppression, control, and misrepresenting the real theological issues is destroying the Advent Movement. Such corruption has to stop, and so too the relentless censorship of those that call for reform. It is clear that those in control have caused the problem, not the critics. An OC, tithe based hierarchy is not capable of solving a Gospel debate. They are the problem.

Only those that understand the NC can reform the church. Not those OC fools that have ruined things for so long. One way or another, the truth about 1888 will emerge and there will be genuine, cutting edge, Adventist Reform. The only question is when? Or put another way, how low must the Denomination go before they give up their OC views and repent?

The Greatest Problem

Herein lies the most serious problem that faces the SDA Community today; the inability to honestly face up to the issues. This stubborn, willful blindness makes it impossible to identify, define, or correct the real problems. This is how the Jews reacted to the Gospel, and why Jesus called them blind.

The modern SDA’s are acting like the Jews as they pretend to see things clearly when they see nothing clearly. So the problems just grow worse and worse within Adventism, and no one really seems to know why, because the real theological mistakes, like 1888, and Glacier View, have been swept under the rug, as if they had no relation to the present crisis. The real issues are misunderstood and untouched on purpose by the leaders, and the Advent Movement is dying as a result.

Adventism will die off in the next generation, if it can last that long, unless it can regain its prophetic bearings and experience genuine, Gospel based, Protestant, reformation. This will never take place so long as freedom of speech and thought are controlled and manipulated by the elites of the church. Without freedom to speak and publish, reform is impossible.

It is time for the SDA Denomination, including Spectrum, AToday, and the Review, to grow up and stop censoring the critics and those that call for Adventist Reform. These publications should stop manipulating and controlling the discussion, as if they alone have truth. This is all wrong; propaganda is not truth, and neither is fancy graphics and endless double-talk.

The Gospel does not promote censorship or double-talk; much less the doctrine of tithe or the IJ, or that men are spiritually superior to women. Away with this cultic, OC based nonsense. Such false doctrines do not belong in the Three Angels Messages. Christians must follow the Gospel teachings of Christ. He is the source for all doctrine, including the Judgment, the Sabbath, church organization, and the status of women in the church.

This inability to deal honestly with the theological issues explains why there are so many angry ex-Adventists that regret growing up SDA. People do not like to be controlled or deceived, and this is how tens of thousands, even millions of former SDA’s feel. This is why they leave. The Advent Movement today is a train wreck. And “culture” is not the problem. It’s all about theology. 100%.

Today, the Adventist Community must take a deep breath and recover their bearings. It is time for straight, blunt talk about the doctrinal issues, which have nothing to do with culture and everything to do with theology and church history.

Let everyone understand; the Denomination has long ago gone corrupt. The leaders are not honest; they are not capable of telling the truth or even knowing what it is. SDA priestcraft no longer functions or convinces.

Unless the SDA’s 1) stop pretending they have no doctrinal errors, and 2) start dealing with the real theological and historical issues they have been suppressing for generations, they are doomed to endless division and self-extinction.

Let everyone understand; the sad outcome of the doctrinal debate about WO is all about the Denomination taking a false, OC doctrinal path in 1888. Culture is not the issue or the problem. Rather, it is all about the theological clash between the Old and New Covenants, which the SDA’s have misunderstood. To embrace the OC and reject the NC is the greatest of all sins. It is fatal.

2Cor. 3:5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,

2Cor. 3:6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2Cor. 3:7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

2Cor. 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

2Cor. 3:9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

2Cor. 3:10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.

2Cor. 3:11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

2Cor. 3:12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,

2Cor. 3:13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.

2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

The modern SDA’s have no one to blame but themselves for all their theological confusion, corruption, and schism that has overwhelmed the Denomination since 1888. And there is more pain on the way thanks to the recent vote not to ordain women. Things will only get worse before they get better. If they get better at all.

For the Adventist Community, the 21st century issue of WO is essentially an extension of the unresolved 1888 debate. The sad outcome proves that the modern SDA’s still prefer the Old Covenant to the New. Just like their 19th century forefathers that rejected the Gospel in 1888 and destroyed their Battle Creek Empire as a result.

The SDA’s have been nearly ruined a number of times because of their love of the OC. They refuse to listen to Ellen White who said:

“Let the law take care of itself. We have been at work on the law until we get as dry as the hills of Gilboa. . . . Let us trust in the merits of Jesus"

(Ellen White, 1888 Materials 557).

The OC is poison for the church. The SDA’s are committing spiritual suicide to keep drinking this anti-Gospel brew. Ellen White does not approve such great error, as they pretend. She tried heroically to push the Denomination forward to the NC, and to the next Advent Message, which she referred to as the 4th. But she lost the 1888 debate and was exiled. And the SDA’s been an OC denomination ever since. So what happened about WO was very predictable and normative. How else would an OC denomination act?

Here is the problem: the SDA’s rejected the NC in 1888 and again in 1980 at Glacier View, and now, a third time, in 2015. The facts show them to be hardcore legalists, an Old Covenant denomination, when they should be, and could be, a New Covenant people, loyal to Christ. Very sad. But yet, they still refuse to repent. They are very much like the Jews.

Hos. 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

The SDA’s must repent before it is too late. They must repudiate their many OC doctrines, replacing them all with Gospel based theology, even when it comes to the doctrines of the Sabbath, Judgment, tithe, and WO. There must be serious Gospel reform within the Advent Movement.

It is time for OC Adventism, which is a ministry of death, to be replaced by NC Adventism and the Gospel teachings of Christ. It is time for Adventism to repent and believe the Gospel.

John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

Is anyone listening? Does anyone care?

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism

tom_norris · 09-25-15 4:17 pm

Pope visits General Conference to congratulate leaders on keeping ordination male-only

SILVER SPRING, Md. — On the morning of the first full day of his visit to the United States, Pope Francis paid a surprising visit to the General Conference headquarters of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Apologizing that he didn’t have a lot of time to socialize, the pontiff said that he nevertheless wished to extend his congratulations and heartfelt thanks for the efforts of Adventist church leaders in keeping the ordination of ministers within the denomination a male-only institution.

Praising GC executives and their appointees as “heroes of the age-old Catholic tradition of maintaining exclusively male priests” the pope stressed that despite distinct differences between the Adventist and Catholic doctrines and traditions, he was elated that Adventist delegates had voted overwhelmingly to uphold Roman Catholic tradition this summer.
“I have to say that I am highly impressed and more than a little bit surprised,” joked the pope before returning to nearby Washington DC. “Perhaps your next vote should be in favor of celibacy for all clergy.”

http://barelyadventist.com/pope-visits- … male-only/

http://spectrummagazine.org/article/201 … conference

tom_norris · 10-20-15 1:05 pm

Ellen White Ordained! Another White Estate Cover-Up!

After years of discussion and debate about Women’s Ordination, it has been discovered that Ellen White was officially “ordained” by the Denomination.
In fact, she received written ordination credentials at least 6 times. Such a historical fact pattern shows how foolish and manipulated this discussion has become.

See: Ellen White's Stature and Her Authority in Photos: Oct 14, 2015
http://spectrummagazine.org/article/201 … ity-photos

http://www.adventistreview.org/church-n … university

The White Estate should have, long ago, let everyone know the truth about Ellen White being ordained. Here is what the White Estate has admitted:

Ellen White's (Ordained) Paper Credentials

The White Estate possesses six paper credentials that were issued to Ellen White.

The first credential is dated October 1, 1883, from the Michigan Conference.

The second is dated December 6, 1885, from the General Conference. On that one credential, the word "ordained" was crossed out.

The third is dated December 27, 1887, from the General Conference.

The fourth is dated March 7, 1899, from the General Conference.

The fifth is dated June 14, 1909, from the General Conference.

The sixth is dated June 12, 1913, from the General Conference.

All of the credentials read "ordained minister.”

Summary

From 1871 until her death in 1915, Ellen White was issued ministerial credentials. From 1871 to 1887 she was credentialed by the Michigan Conference, and from 1884 until her death, she was credentialed as a General Conference Minister. On one of the credentials (1885), the word "ordained" is struck through. (In the 1888 Yearbook she was also listed among the California Ministers.)

Throughout the years, her name was listed along with ordained ministers rather than licentiates, although her biographical information sheet and the testimony of her family indicates that she did not receive ordination at the hands of church officials.

Compiled by the Ellen G. White Estate, Inc.  October 2012
http://whiteestate.org/issues/egw_crede … ntials.htm
--------------------------------------------------

Jared Wright, the author wrote:

I exchanged messages briefly with the White Estate on the topic of her credentials. All of the credentials read "ordained minister," however the White Estate maintains that Ellen White was never ordained by the laying on of hands, and they provide some documentary evidence to support that idea.

Nevertheless, she was given ordained minister credentials six times, which speaks to her authority as a licensed woman minister in her own day and age. The White Estate did not elaborate on what exactly her ordained minister credentials did mean.

I point out in fairly clear terms, I think, that the White Estate maintains that Ellen White was never ordained by the laying on of hands. I also provide a link to the page in which the White Estate lays out the case against Ellen White having been ordained.

In advance of this article, I sent messages to representatives of all the U.S.-based White Estate offices asking about the ordination credentials in particular, and whether they would be a topic of conversation at the Andrews Symposium at all. In response, they pointed me to the page on the White Estate website linked above that discusses her credentials.

What that page does is to suggest what the credentials do not mean, at least in the White Estate's understanding. The question that seems to remain unanswered is exactly what the six credentials did mean, both in terms of how Ellen White was understood within her community in her day and age (and indeed how she understood her own calling and ministry), and what her credentials might mean in light of current discussions about the role of women ministers in the Adventist Church.

I also asked the White Estate leaders for comment on those points, but none of them responded to that query. Now to be fair, it is quite likely that I caught them at a bad time with the Andrews University Symposium getting underway this week.

I did receive a response from Theodore Levterov, who is the head of the White Estate Branch Office in Loma Linda, saying that he has been preparing a paper on that data that he'd be willing to share after the Andrews event. So I plan to follow up on that.

So how do we understand Ellen White's ministerial credentials? I think that is still an open-ended question that deserves more attention from the scholarly community. One takeaway that seems fair is that they further establish the fact that Ellen White's spiritual authority was recognized by her faith community, and her call was affirmed on multiple occasions. That seems instructive for contemporary discussions.

MW said: If you have the credential aren't you then considered ordained? I was "credentialed" , not ordained, and all I had to show for it was a card I carried. It had to be voted somewhere in order to issue Mrs. White a credential. To me that vote would carry the same weight as if she had a ceremony with the laying on of hands. Seems to me this issue should have been brought up during the discussion of the ordination of women at the GC and clarified at that time rather than now. Something just doesn't seem right about the stance of the GC on this.

RV said: Thank you Jared.  The pictures are priceless and bring to mind the old idiom:  ONE PICTURE IS WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS. More particularly, the SIX most explicit photographs showing official church documents that proclaim EGW a fully ordained minister!

The Archbishop of Canterbury, the head of the Church of England, crowned Queen Elizabeth II, and he/she will crown the next monarch. EGW is Adventism's "queen", our prophet, founder, and councilor.   As the only prophet of God in two millenia, since the death of John the Revelator, who would be WORTHY to "crown" her? If we accept EGW's prophetic status, surely it was God Himself, who appointed her, anointed her, and ORDAINED her?

Which of her contemporary peers had sufficient hierarchy of rank to "lay on hands"? Or did the mere possession of male genitalia confer that privilege on one of her male contemporaries?

I doubt that many Adventists could even name the general conference or local church administrators of her era. Any rank they had was ephemeral and trivial, and surely not sufficient to ordain/crown God's only prophet/prophetess in two thousand years!

So why is the White Estate quibbling, and nit-picking, about which mere mortal man laid hands on her? We should proudly proclaim that God Himself ordained her!

The word "ORDAINED" is crystal clear on multiple official documents and should be proof enough that EGW was "ordained". What a travesty and lack of transparency that this has been concealed for so long!

NL said: In my humble estimation this is exactly THE point. The church OFFICIALLY recognized her calling. What were they going to do hand out to her a prophetess certificate. She was and the emphasis is SHE was a minister, preacher, messenger CALLED of God not the church. The church simply acknowledged that calling. God calls whomever He calls just as the Spirit blows wherever the Spirit blows. Male or Female, young or old, child or adult. Ethiopian or whatever nationality.

The mumbo jumbo about she was never ordained because the "brethren" did not lay on hands is an answer that has no question. But lets go ahead and posit this response (not ordained because no laying on of hands) by the Anti W/O crowd. It would look something like this; They did not lay on hands because she was female, but that begs the question why do we have pictures of properly signed ordination papers? The Occam's answer would seem to be self evident, who in their right mind is/are going to lay their hands on Gods prophet and consider that some sort of imprimatur but the church. An answer that has no question, "but they didn't lay on hands"

harrpa said: Sadly, it's obvious that through the years The White Estate has been complicit in keeping the truth quiet about Ellen White's ordination certificates and her documented ordination status as published in several editions of the SDA Yearbook.

Sadly, this fact was left out of required History of Adventism classes for thousands and thousands of academy and college students. Who has wanted these facts hidden and why does truth have to be uncovered by others? Why hasn't The White Estate been upfront about the authority she carried in our early church history? What else is being hidden about EGW in those sacred vaults? Past actions are the strongest predictor to current and future behavior. Not encouraging.

Tom Norris said: I am banished from commenting on this, or any Spectrum article. So I must reply on this uncensored Forum. However, there is a reason I am not allowed to speak. I have been in the White Estate and I know that they are very dishonest. I caught Arthur White hiding the 1888 materials and dishonestly manipulating both church history and doctrine. It was a clear case of publishing fraud, which is a crime.

I spoke out against such dishonesty, but the church leaders looked the other way. They don’t want to admit that the White Estate is guilty of a massive publishing fraud, one that has ruined the reputation of Ellen White and the Advent Movement. So the pretending goes on and on, as if all was well in the White Estate, when in fact it is a criminal enterprise.

Hidden Documents in White Estate
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … uments.htm

Let everyone understand: The White Estate has never been honest about Ellen White or church history. This little cover-up about Ellen White’s ordination credentials pales in comparison with the massive cover-up of the 1888 debate, which has never been honestly or correctly explained to the Adventist Community.

If the church leaders have no problem hiding and manipulating Ellen White's 1888 writings, which include visions and letters about these infamous theological debates, what is the big deal about hiding six little ordination papers? The White Estate has lied so many times, about so much, that they don't even know how to tell the truth. If Ellen White were alive, she would throw out the board and demand a full correction of the record, which at this point, does not support the facts or the truth about Ellen White and her views.

Ellen White
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=225

The White Estate is a criminal enterprise. They are masters of publishing fraud, mind control, and historical manipulation. They are the root cause for all that has gone wrong with modern Adventism. Unless this out of control archive is cleaned up and reformed, there is no hope for SDA’s. They will continue to self-destruct for all to see.

The White Estate needs to admit what they have been doing and repent before a class action suit is brought against them. They need to correct the historical record and tell the truth about Ellen White and church history, including admititng that she was an ordained minister. No wonder millions have left this dishonest, corrupt denomination. People can only take so much double-talk and nonsense in the name of Jesus. Very sad.

Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm

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