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Since I have had, as others, trouble see the details of your "Reform Movement", let me challenge you with this thread. List in the next post the 10 items with no detail, then in the following 10 posts give the detail to us in no more than 1 or 2 paragraph. Suggest the benefit or hazard seen by the SDA hierarchy, but more important what you feel will happen. I would ask that you don't use generic texts like "He who has an ear let him hear" since I believe that some SDAs would consider that verse is talking about you. So use texts that are to each topic specifically.
Of course on your section "Adventist Reform-Tom Norris" you can erase this post of mine as you have done previously, or take it on as a challenge to gain believers in your cause.
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Bob2 said: Since I have had, as others, trouble seeing the details of your "Reform Movement", let me challenge you with this thread.
Tom said: Bob, you must not have been paying attention all these years. I have articulated numerous details about Adventist Reform, over and over and over. Why can’t you “see” that?
See:
12 Challenges to SDA Doctrine:
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1222173098
The 12-point Reform Agenda Discussion:
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=234
12- point Summary of Adventist Reform
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Reform.htm
I challenge you to start paying closer attention!
Bob2 said: List in the next post the 10 items with no detail, then in the following 10 posts give the detail to us in no more than 1 or 2 paragraph.
Tom said: Here are 12 points with details. Those, like you, who embrace NCT, will not agree with #8 The Reformed Sabbath, because they think there is no Sabbath for the church. But this view is absurd and very wrong.
12- point Summary of Adventist Reform
1. Today the SDA church is teaching the wrong version of the Three Angels Messages. Only the Protestant Gospel and the Second Coming are featured and contained in the original version of the 1st Angels message.
Thus "the hour of his Judgment has come" in Rev 14: 7 is ONLY a reference to the Second Coming, not to the IJ. This is what all the Pioneers taught, which means that Traditional Adventism is wrong. It does not have the support of Ellen White or the Pioneers, much less the apostles.
2. The doctrine of the IJ is not true or valid because the Apostles do not teach such doctrine. In fact, nowhere in the NT is such a Celestial judgment taught, much less one that it started in 1844.
3. The SDA's teach a false Gospel that blends JBF with our Sanctification. Such a doctrine is Roman Catholic, not Protestant. If the SDA's want to be Protestant, they must separate and distinguish the Moral law from the Gospel. They must repudiate their position that Sanctification and law keeping are salvific, even as they repent for both 1888 and Glacier View.
4. The SDA's have the wrong hermeneutic. Ellen White does not have any doctrinal authority and she never claimed otherwise. The White Estate has misled millions on this point. This corrupt institution needs major reform.
Only the Apostles have doctrinal authority for the church, and the Pioneers were in full agreement with this Protestant position. The NT interprets the OT, preventing the unauthorized manufacturer of fictional doctrine as the SDA's have also incorrectly done.
Ellen White was NEITHER an Old Testament Prophet nor a New Testament Apostle. Her writings are not inspired like scripture, nor are they scripture. In fact, the Adventist Pioneers taught that Bible Study always trumps any visions that Ellen White may have had on any topic. The White Estate must repent and correct the record.
5. The SDA denomination is not organized properly. It is incorrectly based on the Old Covenant doctrine of tithe. This Hierarchical model that supported both the Levitical Priesthood and the Temple, is not valid for the church. The SDA Denomination is not the "storehouse" for tithe, nor is the General Conference to be compared with the Old Covenant Jewish Temple.
The doctrine of New Testament tithe must be repudiated, and so too the present hierarchical structure that mimics Rome.
6. The SDA position about the Two Covenants is very wrong. Their teaching that the 10 Commandments are not part of the Old Covenant is dangerous, false, and legalistic. And so too their position that obedience to the law is salvific.
This is what the famous 1888 debates were all about. But the General Conference, Review, and White Estate hid this information from the church, even as they suppressed and misrepresented Ellen White's views about the law and the Gospel. Thus many of the Old Covenant doctrines that SDA's promote, such as the clean and unclean foods, tithe, and the Sabbath of the Pharisees is wrong.
The SDA's must repudiate their past errors about the Law and the Gospel and embrace the Two Covenants correctly. They must tell the truth about Adventist history, even as they must correct the historical record.
7. The SDA's are wrong to promote the doctrine of abstinence, which originates from the Koran. There is no such doctrine in either Judaism or the Christian Faith, and thus the SDA's are teaching, not only Muslim doctrine, but also the false practice of the Lord's Supper.
The NT does not allow Grape Juice to be substitute for naturally fermented wine. Nor can the Lord's Supper be observed with fruit juice.
8. The SDA's have embraced the Seventh-day Sabbath of the Pharisees instead of the Reformed, New Covenant Sabbath that Jesus teaches in the Gospels. The SDA's have never understood the proper Gospel Sabbath, and neither has the post-apostolic, Gentile church.
When the SDA's grasp the Gospel, they will understand the Gospel Sabbath. But so far, they have failed to comprehend both.
9. The SDA doctrine of the Pre-Advent Judgment is wrong. It is not Dan 8:14, but Rev 3: 14. Thus the PAJ of the church is the Laodicean Message, not the Investigative Judgment.
The SDA's need to admit this fact and act accordingly, which means they must repent for their many false doctrines.
10. The SDA's must once again understand and embrace genuine Adventist Health Reform. Although this was one area where they were most successful in the 19th century, today they have abandoned the Natural Health movement of which they were once the leaders.
They must correct this great error and make up for lost time.
11. The SDA's do not have credible eschatology for the 21st century. The predicted Sunday laws cannot be the beginning of the time of trouble-- because the NT does not support such a position. Thus they need to pay closer attention to Paul's Gospel based eschatology as well as the book of Revelation in order to develop a credible version of Adventist eschatology.
Today, the 3rd Angels Message is no longer united or functional. Which means that the Adventists no longer have an active or credible prophetic message. To solve this problem, the Advent people must move forward to develop and promote the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18.
Here is the point of the Adventist Apocalyptic, and the reason why the Advent Movement exists; to proclaim the final Gospel message and prepare the church for the Second Coming and the end of the world.
12. Once the final generation of Christians understands the last Gospel Message, they must prepare for the time of trouble that will precede the Second Coming. They must take action to prepare the church to stand in a manner that reflects and reinforces their eschatology.
They must build cities and villages of refuge-- out of harms way-- in preparation for the horror that is to come.
This list can be found on the Adventist of Tomorrow Forums;
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1222173098
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=234
Bob2 said: Suggest the benefit or hazard seen by the SDA hierarchy, but more important what you feel will happen?
Tom replied: Ha! The problem with Adventist Reform, as viewed by the SDA leaders, is the same problem as it was for the 1st century Jewish leaders. They both love the OC.
Jesus Gospel teaching, if embraced by the Jews, would have upended and changed OC Judaism, leaving the religious hierarchy unemployed, including the Levitical Priests and even the High Priest, without reason to exist.
Jesus’ teaching would destroy their ancient Temple based system, even as it would also removed their power and access to cash flow. Such reforms would lead to chaos, they reasoned, which would then help the Romans further control their Nation. Consequently, Jesus and his radical Gospel views must be silenced to save Judaism and the leaders legalistic way of life. They never gave his views serious consideration, and few Christians do as well.
John 11:46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them the things which Jesus had done.
John 11:47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs.
John 11:48 “If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”
John 11:49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all,
John 11:50 nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish.”
No wonder the Jewish leaders wanted nothing to do with such doctrines that would dismantle, marginalize, and ruin their hierarchical based religious/civil system. Those in power do not give it up without a fight, much less to some migrant, uneducated preachers from the Countryside. Jesus was a dead man walking. His ideas were too radical, comprehensive, and explosive.
Jesus teaching was so different from the status quo, that it demanded a total re-organization of Judaism into the Church. It demanded the repudiation of the Levites and a change in the Temple Services, and even a very different view of the Law and the Sabbath, and even eschatology.
Jesus NC teaching was too much for the Jews to accept. They stopped trying to understand him from the very beginning of his ministry. Which is why if any had serious questions, they had to sneak at night to ask them. The leaders knew right away that if Jesus Gospel views prevailed, they were not only unemployed, but despised by the people they had once controlled and deceived.
So the Jewish leaders rejected the Gospel for their own, short term and selfish reasons. And the SDA’s have done the same thing. They hated Gospel Reform in Battle Creek, and then again in Takoma Park.
Why? Because the NC Gospel destroys the OC, rendering it worthless and wrong. Someone forgot to tell the SDA’s. They are the world’s greatest OC minded denomination. They are obsessed with tithe and the 10 Commandments, especially the 4th.
None have embraced so much OC doctrine as the legalistic SDA’S who practice tithe like an obsession, as well as OC Sabbath keeping, even thinking the OT book of Daniel is the Pre Advent Judgment of the Church, from which they claim to have discovered the doctrine of the IJ.
The Gospel sweeps all this nonsense away. There can be no tithe in the NC, much less a hierarchy, or OC Sabbath keeping or even a judgment of the church from any OT book. The SDA’s are delusional to think they are following God and the Gospel. They are not even close.
If they were to ever try, the GC would have to be completely re-organized, repudiating tithe and the IJ, even as every SDA church must become Congregational in nature, owned by the local church, not the Denomination.
In addition, to accept Adventist Reform, the leaders must also confess their fraud in the White Estate as well as their many other errors of doctrine. But guess what? They don’t want to admit any wrongdoing. Nor do they want to lose their cushy jobs and benefits.
So they pretend all is well and that there is no need for Reform. This is what Goldstein would say just before he ran for his life away from Tom Norris, unable and unwilling to address the real issues.
Make no mistake about it; Adventist Reform means the death of Traditional Adventism. It is the basis for the next Adventist Message, which the Pioneers called the 4th Angels Message.
This is where the Advent Movement must go. With or without the (Reformed) SDA Denomination.
Forward to the 4th Angels Message. This is the “benefit” for the SDA’s. Adventist Reform is the path to “finish the work,” as the old timers would say. Except they had no idea how to define or explain this elusive message which was still in the future, according to SDA eschatology.
The period of the 3rd Angels Message is over. That Sabbatarian phase of the Three Angels Messages has ended in confusion, schism, and pluralism. Now it is time to understand what went wrong, correct it, and move forward to the last Advent Message, the 4th, which is based on Rev 18.
Is anyone listening?
Tom Norris, for comprehensive and credible Adventist Reform
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Tom, trying to change the Adventist Church is an up hill battle with 150 mile an hour wind blowing in your face. If you are hell bent on your "reformed" Sabbath and other doctrines it would be better to start anew. You would probably get some converts. Most SDAs don't like being told they have to pay tithe or what they can or cannot do during the Holy hours.
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Bob, I thought you were complaining that you did not have enough detail to understand Adventist Reform? But once you are given the details, you ignore them and go off in another direction? Strange.
Why not face up to the issues?
I understand why the SDA leaders don’t want to admit any error or embrace any Gospel Reforms. This is what corrupt organizations do. But I don’t understand why others would ignore Adventist Reform? There is really no other credible option for the Advent Movement.
Bob2 said: Tom, trying to change the Adventist Church is an up hill battle with 150 mile an hour wind blowing in your face.
Tom said: The object of Adventist Reform is to push the Advent Movement forward to the 4th Angels Message. This is the overall objective. This is the ultimate point.
The SDA church has been changing, even as it will continue to change. The real question is how will it change and evolve? Will it stay true to it historic fundamentals and to the vision of its Pioneers?
Will they repent and go forward within the paradigm of the Three Angels Messages, moving forward to the 4th and last Message? Or will they break down into an evil religious Empire, forgetting their eschatological mission and fighting against the Gospel?
If the SDA’s, which represent the 3rd Angels Message, do not want to repent and move forward within their own apocalyptic, then so be it. They can reject the Gospel just like the Jews, and with the same sad result. This is what they have been doing for generations. Thus they seem committed to failure.
However, it will be their loss and self-destruction. They will fade away, like all those who let truth pass them by.
Then others will embrace this new, reformed, Advent Message, including it’s very different and surprising, Reformed, 7th day, Sabbath.
Here will be the clearest articulation of the Protestant Gospel that the modern world has ever heard. It will also be accompanied with credible, 21st century eschatology that will prepare the church for what is to come. A great reformation and sensation will result, -one that would make Miller and the Advent Pioneers proud.
Thus the genuine Gospel will be correctly proclaimed before the 2nd Coming, with or without the SDA’s. Neither prophecy nor correct eschatology is going to wait for them or any Laodicean denomination to repent.
Heaven is disgusted with every Laodicean church, and it is only a matter of time before there is great Gospel debate and Reformation within Adventism, (again), and all others as well. It is only a matter of time before the 4th Angels Message emerges and becomes organized, going about its prophetic work.
Why pretend anymore?
It is time to repent and shift the Advent paradigm forward. The level of perceived difficulty is irrelevant. When the time is right, a new Advent message will emerge. This is what is taking place with Adventist Reform RIGHT NOW. It is the correct path for the Advent Movement. There is no other.
Bob2 said: If you are hell bent on your "reformed" Sabbath and other doctrines it would be better to start anew.
Tom said: I am committed to the Gospel, as well as the NC Sabbath, which is clearly part of the law of Christ and the teaching of Christ.
So there is nothing-new taking place. The NC Sabbath under discussion only appears to be new, but it hails from the 1st century. Thus it can be found in all four Gospels.
Moreover, all theology must have a source, context, and pedigree, and the Adventists are no different in this regard.
Thus the 4th Angels Message is built on the Protestant paradigm of the Three Angels Messages. It does not stand alone, but rather it is part of a long chain of Protestant Reforms, even the conclusion of the Adventist Apocalyptic.
All true Adventists should rejoice because a clear path forward has been discovered. There are no more unanswered questions about church history or doctrine as the SDA’s pretend.
Both 1888 and Glacier View must be repudiated or the SDA’s will be shut out of the final events, unable to understand the newly developing 4th Angels Message, which will either save or destroy the SDA Denomination. Depending on their choice. They must either repent and go forward, or stay back and embrace doom…
Bob2 said: You would probably get some converts. Most SDA’s don't like being told they have to pay tithe or what they can or cannot do during the Holy hours.
Tom said: Today, we live in the NC. Thus no one should enjoy being treated in such an OC manner.
We are not escaped Jewish slaves in need of such rough treatment. Nor do we need to pretend that any church leader is above those he or she teaches. There is no separate class of Priests in the church, much less tithe to support them. So there are some very strange and wrong things taking place in church, which explains why so many people “don’t like being told” to do this or that.
Furthermore, let’s stop using these outdated terms like “Holy Hours.” This is an OC view of the Sabbath. The Gospel Sabbath does not use such terminology, nor does it have a Friday “preparation day,” which helped facilitate the many rules and restrictions for the OC “holy Sabbath hours.”
Ex. 16:23 then he said to them, “This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is a sabbath observance, a holy sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.”
Ex. 16:24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.
Ex. 16:25 Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is a sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
Ex. 16:26 “Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the sabbath, there will be none.”
Neh. 9:14 “So You made known to them Your holy sabbath,
And laid down for them commandments, statutes and law,
Through Your servant Moses.
The NC Sabbath
The NT does not use such a term as “Holy Sabbath.” Nor does the NT show any Christian embracing the Friday preparation day.
Why? Because the OC Sabbath was replaced by the NC Sabbath of Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath. His teaching about the 7th day Sabbath is correct doctrine for the church, even as the 4th Commandment Law of Moses is no longer binding against any Christian.
The Reformed Sabbath is a living illustration of the Gospel. It is an active, working, doctrine that elevates the teaching and authority of Christ ABOVE the law, even as it still embraces the essence of this ancient memorial to creation.
The Gospel Sabbath is “holy” in the sense that this is a doctrine that comes from Christ, and God. Thus the 7th day Lord’s Day is not the same as any other day of the week, or the same as the OC, non-working Sabbath of the Jews and SDA’s. So let’s try and understand things properly, shall we?
Moreover, why pretend that NC Pastors are like the OC Levites and that the church is like the Temple Storehouse for tithe, and that the leaders are to rule over and own the local churches, forcing all to obey them or else.
This is not how the Gospel works.
Such a hierarchical, OC church structure only proves that the SDA’s are not Protestant, nor Gospel friendly.
Understand that whenever the Gospel is correctly explained and preached; errors are exposed and new believers emerge. This is the pattern of church history, especially after the Reformation.
Who knew that at the end of time, the doctrine of the Sabbath would become a big issue?
The SDA’s knew, --that’s who!
Too bad they bungled their Gospel mission and embraced the wrong Sabbath, -just like the Jews.
Too bad every denomination has done the same thing. And here we sit. All in a ditch. Waiting for the world to blow up…
Today, the church, meaning all denominations, is in the dark about the Gospel. Which explains why they can’t even talk straight about the Sabbath, which none of them understand correctly.
So imagine the shock when everyone finds out his or her leaders have been wrong about the Sabbath every week?
It means their church has also been wrong about many other things as well. And so they all have.
This is how Reformations start.
There is discovery of error, then correction, which is attacked by those in power. The honest repent, becoming new believers. Schism takes place and new denominations are born. This is how the Gospel started, and how it has survived all these years.
This is what happened with Miller, he had a different view of eschatology from all others, and because he was theologically correct, he could prove his point and create a new denomination in the process.
Every age has it’s own special myths and errors, and the Laodiceans have been judged as the worst of all seven church eras. How fitting that not one church has a correct view of the Sabbath today. What seems impossible is fact.
They are all wrong, including the arrogant SDA’s who correctly claimed to be the Sabbath experts. Now all must repent, just as Jesus teaches in the Pre Advent Judgment of the church in Rev 3: 14.
Like in all ages, those that look for truth, will find it. While those that don’t, will always find reasons to defend tradition and fight Gospel progress.
Bottom line, Adventist Reform is the correct path for the 21st century Adventism. After 10 years of online discussion, this point should become evident by now. At least for those that seek truth.
It is time for the Adventist Community to wake up and understand that their OC minded leaders have not been honest with them about the Gospel or the Sabbath, or church history, or Ellen White.
It is time for NC Adventism to emerge from the ashes of OC legalism and failure; shifting the eschatological paradigm forward from the dying, self-destructing, 3rd Angels Message to the Gospel based 4th Angels Message of Rev 18.
This is the point of Adventist Reform.
Adventist Reform will either save the SDA Denomination or put it out of its misery, by sealing its rebellious attitude in rejection. Either way, a new option is emerging for those within the Adventist Apocalyptic to go forward and follow the Lamb.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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1.Today the SDA church is teaching the wrong version of the Three Angels Messages. Only the Protestant Gospel and the Second Coming are featured and contained in the original version of the 1st Angels message. Thus "the hour of his Judgment has come" in Rev 14: 7 is ONLY a reference to the Second Coming, not to the IJ. This means that Traditional Adventism is wrong. It does not have the support of Ellen White or the Pioneers.
Response by Bob 2 : In order to have a final judgment, doesn’t there have to be a review of everyone’s life? I’m not into the IJ but I would think a pre-advent judgment must happen before the decision is given, and is it your thought then that Christ does that review on His trip to earth????
2.The doctrine of the IJ is not true or valid because the Apostles do not teach such theology. In fact, nowhere in the NT is such a Celestial judgment taught, much less one that it started in 1844.
Response by Bob_2Again don’t you think that there ought to be a period of review (investigation) of all men’s’ lives?
3.The SDA's teach a false Gospel that blends JBF with our Sanctification. Such a doctrine is Roman Catholic, not Protestant. If the SDA's want to be Protestant, they must separate and distinguish the Moral law from the Gospel. They must repudiate their position that Sanctification and law keeping are salvific, even as they repent for both 1888 and Glacier View.
Response from Bob_2 Justification is free, Sanctification is the work of life time. Sanctification is a cooperative work between us and the Holy Spirit. Paul talk of a race or a fight to overcome, eh.
1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption 1 Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immmorality;
1 Thessalonians 4:4
that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
2 Thessalonians 2:13
[ Stand Fast ] But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
More later.......
Last edited by bob_2 (08-04-11 7:23 pm)
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4. The SDA's have the wrong hermeneutic. Ellen White does not have any doctrinal authority and she never claimed otherwise. The White Estate has misled millions on this point. This corrupt institution needs major reform.
Only the Apostles have doctrinal authority for the church, and the Pioneers were in full agreement with this Protestant position. The NT interprets the OT, preventing the unauthorized manufacturer of fictional doctrine as the SDA's have also incorrectly done.
Ellen White was NEITHER an Old Testament Prophet nor a New Testament Apostle. Her writings are not inspired like scripture, nor are they scripture. In fact, the Adventist Pioneers taught that Bible Study always trumps any visions that Ellen White may have had on any topic. The White Estate must repent and correct the record.
Response from Bob_2: EGW said to test her to the Bible, if it doesn't match, then you have to call it error.
5. The SDA denomination is not organized properly. It is incorrectly based on the Old Covenant doctrine of tithe. This Hierarchical model that supported both the Levitical Priesthood and the Temple, is not valid for the church. The SDA Denomination is not the "storehouse" for tithe, nor is the General Conference to be compared with the Old Covenant Jewish Temple.
The doctrine of New Testament tithe must be repudiated, and so too the present hierarchical structure that mimics Rome.
Response from Bob _2 The heirachy of the church is for you to show something better right Tom. The tithe position is self defieting.
6. The SDA position about the Two Covenants is very wrong. Their teaching that the 10 Commandments are not part of the Old Covenant is
dangerous, false, and legalistic. And so too their position that obedience to the law is salvific.
This is what the famous 1888 debates were all about. But the General Conference, Review, and White Estate hid this information from the church, even as they suppressed and misrepresented Ellen White's views about the law and the Gospel. Thus many of the Old Covenant doctrines that SDA's promote, such as the clean and unclean foods, tithe, and the Sabbath of the Pharisees is wrong.
The SDA's must repudiate their past errors about the Law and the Gospel and embrace the Two Covenants correctly. They must tell the truth about Adventist history, even as they must correct the historical record.
Response from Bob_2 :Tom, Salvation involves Jusifcation which I believe takes care of the past. Original Sin. But then the "fight a good the fight and the race to be run. The effort is coperative and empowerment from the Spirit.
The Old Covenant was fulfilled at the Cross.
Last edited by bob_2 (08-07-11 2:25 am)
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Bob, I thought you were complaining that you did not have enough detail to understand Adventist Reform? But once you are given the details, you ignore them and go off in another direction? Strange.
I understand enough about what you are trying to peddle Tom and I don't buy into it one iota. What I said in my last post was to get you to realize SDAs are not interested in what you have to say. They are not about to change. Probably you both are at a standoff.
Why not face up to the issues?
I did face the issues Tom and concluded that there is no Christian Sabbath . There is no Sunday Sabbath. We are free to worship any day and Christianity isn't about "keeping" a day, it is all about Jesus and His Grace. Nothing more needs to be added. We cannot work our way to Heaven by observing days. Jesus is enough and when we rest in Him we are refreshed.
I understand why the SDA leaders don’t want to admit any error or embrace any Gospel Reforms. This is what corrupt organizations do. But I don’t understand why others would ignore Adventist Reform? There is really no other credible option for the Advent Movement.
It is true that the SDA organization is corrupt. It started out that way and has not gotten any better with age. Your organization follows suit and is just a spin off of the same corruption.
The remainder of your post isn't going to change the real truth so I won't bother to comment.
Sorry to be so blunt, but I would rather write the plain truth than to continue to beat around the bush.
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Tom, this is Bob_2 pointing out the last post is from Bob. Not that I disagree with him, but just to let you know I'm not the only one that isn't buying what you are peddling!!!
Last edited by bob_2 (08-09-11 4:02 pm)
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7. The SDA's are wrong to promote the doctrine of abstinence, which originates from the Koran. There is no such doctrine in either Judaism or the Christian Faith, and thus the SDA's are teaching, not only Muslim doctrine, but also the false practice of the Lord's Supper. The NT does not allow Grape Juice to be substitute for naturally fermented wine. Nor can the Lord's Supper be observed with Soft drinks, Orange Juice, or any other beverage.
Bob_2 response: here you are straining at gnats. The whole service is symbolic. Question, what do you offer underage kids that are baptized???
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8. The SDA's have embraced the Seventh-day Sabbath of the Pharisees instead of the Reformed, New Covenant Sabbath that Jesus teaches in the Gospels. The SDA's have never understood the proper Gospel Sabbath, and neither has the post-apostolic, Gentile church. When the SDA's grasp the Gospel, they will understand the Gospel Sabbath. But so far, they have failed to comprehend both doctrines correctly.
Response from Bob_2
You both are wrong, show me the command within the New Covenant or a direct command from Jesus that Sabbath was to be kept in His kingdom or NC after His death. Before His death He had to live perfectly the OC Law.
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9. The SDA doctrine of the Pre-Advent Judgment is wrong. It is not Dan 8:14, but Rev 3: 14. Thus the PAJ of the church is the Laodicean Message, not the Investigative Judgment. The SDA's need to admit this fact and act accordingly, which means they must repent for their many false doctrines.
Response from Bob_2: There is a Pre Advent Judgement and I believe each live will be investigated, that is not tipped off from 1844. The dead can be investigated any time after their death. The living will have Probation until :
Rev 22:11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Response by Bob_2: Tom, there appears to be some time between the two verses, time enough to conclude the Pre Advent Judgment, and Jesus carrying the results with His 2nd Advent.
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10. The SDA's must once again understand and embrace genuine Adventist Health Reform. Although this was one area where they were most successful in the 19th century, today they have abandoned the Natural Health movement of which they were once the leaders. They must correct this great error and make up for lost time.
Response by Bob_2: I can't eat my beef Ball Park weiner and go to Heaven. Where is that written in Scripture. I've never found Vejalinks mention in the Scriptures.
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11. The SDA's do not have credible eschatology for the 21st century. The predicted Sunday laws, with which they are so obsessed, cannot be the start of the time of trouble-- because the NT does not support such a position. Thus they need to pay closer attention to Paul's Gospel based eschatology as well as the book of Revelation in order to develop a credible version of Adventist eschatology.
Today, the 3rd Angels Message is no longer united or functional. Which means that the Adventists no longer have an active or credible prophetic message. To solve this problem, the Advent people must move forward to develop and promote the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18. Here is the point of the Adventist Apocalyptic, and the reason why the Advent Movement exists; to proclaim the final Gospel message and prepare the church for the Second Coming and the end of the world.
Response from Bob_2: Why jump to Rev 18 when Rev 14 still have additional angels to be accounted for. So this is a salvific point for you? Believe it as you have stated or die???
Last edited by bob_2 (08-09-11 4:35 pm)
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12. Once the final generation of Christians understands the last Gospel Message, they must prepare for the time of trouble that will precede the Second Coming. They must take action to prepare the church to stand in a manner that reflects and reinforces their eschatology. They must build cities and villages of refuge-- out of harms way-- in preparation for the horror that is to come.
Response by Bob_2 :Tom, why not go one step further and believe that God will rapture the saints so they won't be harmed. You limit your God. God can protect His own, and I have never seen instructions to build "cities and villages of refuge"!!!!
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Tom said: Reform Point #1.Today the SDA church is teaching the wrong version of the Three Angels Messages. Only the Protestant Gospel and the Second Coming are featured and contained in the original version of the 1st Angels message.
Thus "the hour of his Judgment has come" in Rev 14: 7 is ONLY a reference to the Second Coming, not to the IJ. This means that Traditional Adventism is wrong. It does not have the support of Ellen White or the Pioneers.
Response by Bob2: In order to have a final judgment, doesn’t there have to be a review of everyone’s life? I’m not into the IJ but I would think a pre-advent judgment must happen before the decision is given, and is it your thought then that Christ does that review on His trip to earth????
Tom said: Bob, you are not paying attention.
The PAJ has ALREADY taken place! It is not the IJ, which is mythical, and based on Old Covenant writings that have no authority over the church.
The PAJ is the Laodicean Message, which was spoken by Christ and written down in the NT for the edification of the church. THIS is the genuine PAJ of the last church. Here is eschatological truth for all to see.
I repeat; THE LM IS THE PAJ. Let all in the SDA community, including those that left because of the error of the IJ, comprehend this theological fact and embrace the true PAJ.
Today, the Laodicean church, meaning every denomination, has ALREADY failed this pre advent examination by Christ. All in the last church are condemned unless they repent and embrace genuine Gospel Reform.
Rev. 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
Dan 8:14 is NOT the Pre Advent Judgment of the Church. It is the story of Hanukkah.
Revelation 3: 14 IS the PAJ of the Laodicean Church.
When the Advent Movement understands this theological fact, and repents for their great error about the IJ, -- THEN they can go forward to the next level, which the Pioneers called the 4th Angels Message. This should be the focus of the Advent Movement today.
See:
First Angel's Message & the Pre-Advent Judgment
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ge-Pre.htm
The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message:
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227
Understanding the Pre Advent Judgment
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/8/9213.html
PAJ Necessary
The SDA’s get high marks for understanding there must be a pre-Advent judgment. Too bad they embraced the wrong view of this eschatological doctrine.
Let all understand that there is a PAJ, and it has been completed. All that is left is for the church to comprehend this theological fact and re-act accordingly.
Those who embrace the IJ are not only wasting their time and misunderstanding the Gospel Story; they are also being diverted away from the genuine Christ and his correct doctrine of the PAJ and the many other doctrines. If this fatal error is not corrected, their doom is inevitable.
Let all SDA’s RUN from the IJ and loudly repudiate it so that they can embrace the correct PAJ, which is the LM.
Rev. 3:22 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
Tom said: Reform Point #2.The doctrine of the IJ is not true or valid because the Apostles do not teach such theology. In fact, nowhere in the NT is such a Celestial judgment taught, much less one that it started in 1844.
Response by Bob2: Again don’t you think that there ought to be a period of review (investigation) of all men’s’ lives?
Tom said: Again, the PAJ has already taken place! Thus all Christians in Laodicea have already been “investigated,” and the verdict is not good. In fact, the verdict is catastrophic for the church, requiring action and zealous repentance from all or they are doomed.
Rev. 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
So yes, there was a time of examination and investigation for the last church, - before the 2nd Coming. However, that period has past, even as the verdict of the pre Advent judgment has been announced by Christ and recorded in scripture for all to see. “Blind, naked, and unsaved.” Guilty and delusional.
I suggest that all SDA’s pay very close attention to this paradigm changing point. Dan 8:14 is to be replaced with Rev 3:14 as the genuine PAJ. Here is an important change to Adventist theology that all should embrace.
Tom said: Reform #3. The SDA's teach a false Gospel that blends JBF with our Sanctification. Such a doctrine is Roman Catholic, not Protestant.
If the SDA's want to be Protestant, they must separate and distinguish the Moral law from the Gospel. They must repudiate their position that Sanctification and law keeping are salvific, even as they repent for both 1888 and Glacier View.
Response from Bob2: Justification is free; Sanctification is the work of life time. Sanctification is a cooperative work between us and the Holy Spirit. Paul talks of a race or a fight to overcome, eh.
Tom said: You have not rebutted the premise, much less articulated a coherent response.
Moreover, you have ignored the fact that the SDA’s long ago predicted that there would come a time when the Gospel would be more fully understood and proclaimed by the Advent Movement. They called this the Loud Cry of the 4th Angels Message and linked it to Rev 18. They were correct. Eschatology moves forward…
When the Gospel is fully understood, so too the New Covenant Sabbath, the Judgment, eschatology, and many other doctrines. The modern SDA’s should be pushing forward to better understand the Gospel and last day events. Instead they waste their time promoting false and absurd doctrine.
It is clear that the SDA’s today have embraced a false and twisted view of the Gospel Story and church history. As a result, they have been condemned in the PAJ, which is the LM.
I suggest that you study the Reformation and try to better understand this historic debate between about the law and the Gospel. It will be repeated.
Law & Gospel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1122
Tom said: Reform #4. The SDA's have the wrong hermeneutic. Ellen White does not have any doctrinal authority and she never claimed otherwise.
The White Estate has misled millions on this point. This corrupt institution needs major reform. Only the Apostles have doctrinal authority for the church, and the Pioneers were in full agreement with this Protestant position. The NT interprets the OT, preventing the unauthorized manufacturer of fictional doctrine as the SDA's have also incorrectly done.
Ellen White was NEITHER an Old Testament Prophet nor a New Testament Apostle. Her writings are not inspired like scripture, nor are they scripture. In fact, the Adventist Pioneers taught that Bible Study always trumps any visions that Ellen White may have had on any topic. The White Estate must repent and correct the record.
Response from Bob2: EGW said to test her to the Bible, if it doesn’t match, then you have to call it error.
Tom said: Your response is incoherent. The modern SDA’s have a false and incorrect view of Ellen White and hermeneutics. Both need to be corrected.
Until the SDA’s repent for their manipulation and dishonesty about Ellen White, they are doomed to self-destruct. The White Estate must confess what they have done and correct the record.
Tom said: Reform #5. The SDA denomination is not organized properly. It is incorrectly based on the Old Covenant doctrine of tithe. This Hierarchical model that supported both the Leviticial Priesthood and the Temple is not valid for the church. The SDA Denomination is not the "storehouse" for tithe, nor is the General Conference to be compared with the Old Covenant Jewish Temple.
The doctrine of New Testament tithe must be repudiated, and so too the present hierarchical structure that mimics Rome.
Response from Bob2: The hierarchy of the church is for you to show something better right Tom. The tithe position is self-defeating.
Tom said: Again, your response is not coherent or useful. The NT is clear about how the church is to be organized and managed. Neither Jesus nor the apostolic church practiced tithing. This SDA myth is utter nonsense and fraud.
The Fraud of Church Tithing
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=239
The apostles did not own any of the local churches; much less receive a tithe from them. There can be no hierarchy, or a separate priesthood, or tithing in the New Covenant. It is forbidden. Every church must be congregational in nature, owning their own church and hiring their own pastors. All are equal, and all are priests of God, both men and women.
If SDA’s are to go forward in Gospel truth, they must repudiate tithing and their dictatorial control and ownership of the local churches. The local church is to serve the local community of believers, not support a distant hierarchical leadership in another location.
Tom said: Reform #6. The SDA position about the Two Covenants is very wrong. Their teaching that the 10 Commandments are not part of the Old Covenant is dangerous, false, and legalistic. And so too their position that obedience to the law is salvific.
This is what the famous 1888 debates were all about. But the General Conference, Review, and White Estate hid this information from the church, even as they suppressed and misrepresented Ellen White's views about the law and the Gospel. Thus many of the Old Covenant doctrines that SDA's promote, such as the clean and unclean foods, tithe, and the Sabbath of the Pharisees is wrong.
The SDA's must repudiate their past errors about the Law and the Gospel and embrace the Two Covenants correctly. They must tell the truth about Adventist history, even as they must correct the historical record.
Response from Bob2: Tom, Salvation involves Justification, which I believe, takes care of the past. Original Sin. But then the "fight a good the fight and the race to be run. The effort is cooperative and empowerment from the Spirit. The Old Covenant was fulfilled at the Cross.
Tom said: Wrong answer. It is obvious that you don’t understand the Protestant Gospel. Few SDA’s do. I suggest that you study the difference between the Protestant view of the Gospel and that of a Roman Catholic.
Law & Gospel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1122
Bob2 said: I understand enough about what you are trying to peddle Tom and I don't buy into it one iota.
Tom said: Your confusion is only exceeded by your stubbornness to repent and learn the Gospel. You are in a cultic fog, unable to see clearly.
Matt. 13:14 “In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
Bob2 said; What I said in my last post was to get you to realize SDAs are not interested in what you have to say. They are not about to change. Probably you both are at a standoff.
Tom said: Those that seek truth, are very much interested in Adventist Reform. Just take a look at how many people are viewing these discussions both here and at All Experts.com. Interest is growing in the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. It is only a matter of time before this truth becomes common knowledge.
Reviews From Users
http://www.allexperts.com/expert.cgi?m= … xpID=70484
In fact, many hundreds have contacted me with questions and thanks. It is only a matter of time before Adventist Reform clears up the confusion and double-talk of the SDA’s and pushes the paradigm forward. Facts are more powerful than myths, and so it will be with AR.
Bob2 said: I did face the issues Tom, and concluded that there is no Christian Sabbath. There is no Sunday Sabbath.
Tom said: First off, who cares what you have “concluded”? You are not an apostle or even a scholar, so your opinion about doctrine has no value. Especially since you have been raised in Cultic Adventism. That is the equivalent of being raised on lead paint. Traditional Adventism ruins the brain and makes clear thinking impossible.
So if I were you, I would be very careful of reaching any final “conclusions” about things you know so little about. At this point, you should only conclude that you need more study to better understand the Gospel and church history.
Second, the Gospels are full of Jesus teaching about the Sabbath, including many specific debates with the Jews about this doctrine. For anyone to declare there is no Sabbath for the church, they must first disregard the Gospels and what Jesus is teaching about the New Covenant Sabbath over and over.
Are you prepared to be so dismissive of Christ and his teachings? Apparently so.
While many, like you, see no problem with ignoring the teachings of Jesus about a point they do not like, such behavior is the essence of false Christianity. Those who ignore what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, which is a lot of material, will never understand the Gospel Story properly. Nor will they be saved.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
When it comes to any discussion about the Sabbath, the specific teachings of Christ must become the primary source to define and understand this Gospel doctrine that became the basis for placing Christ on the cross. Those who follow Christ must do so; pretending does not count.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Third; Those that ignore Christ about the Sabbath, also misconstrue what the rest of the NT teaches about the Sabbath, even pretending that Paul is the Lord of the Sabbath, declaring there is no such doctrine. Such hermeneutical incompetence will never lead to Gospel truth or understanding.
Sorry Bob, your “conclusions” do not trump the clear teachings of Christ about the NC Sabbath. And neither does the legalistic, SDA view of the Sabbath, which has prevented many from being able to comprehend the true Reformed Sabbath of Christ. Sad.
Bob2 said: We are free to worship any day and Christianity isn't about "keeping" a day, it is all about Jesus and His Grace. Nothing more needs to be added. We cannot work our way to Heaven by observing days. Jesus is enough and when we rest in Him we are refreshed.
Tom said: No Christian is free to repudiate the teachings of Christ about any point of doctrine, much less the Sabbath. Those who feel free to ignore what they don’t like and spin the Gospels into fictional doctrines, have fallen from Grace.
Moreover, I am not saying that the Gospel Sabbath has anything to do with working our way to heaven. That would be the SDA, OC view of the Sabbath, the one that you followed for many years.
The NC Sabbath elevates Christ, not the 7th day, which is why Jesus allows all to work on the Sabbath. The Gospel Sabbath is not about obedience to the Law, but faith in Christ and his teachings, which trump the law.
Furthermore, this false idea that Jesus is our Sabbath rest, is not taught in the Gospels. Jesus makes no such statement anywhere, anytime, even though there are many passages in the Gospels where he teaches and debates about the Sabbath.
Those that follow Christ must do so, including what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. Those that are just pretending are easily exposed by the way they treat the Sabbath teachings of Christ.
Sorry to be so blunt, but you need to face the fact that you do not believe or follow what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. You are not even close. Which means you are following a false, worthless Christ, as well as false religious teachers. Sad.
Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Tom said: Reform #7. The SDA's are wrong to promote the doctrine of abstinence, which originates from the Koran. There is no such doctrine in either Judaism or the Christian Faith, and thus the SDA's are teaching, not only Muslim doctrine, but also the false practice of the Lord's Supper.
The NT does not allow Grape Juice to be substitute for naturally fermented wine. Nor can the Lord's Supper be observed with Soft drinks, Orange Juice, or any other beverage.
Bob2 response: here you are straining at gnats. The whole service is symbolic. Question, what do you offer underage kids that are baptized???
Tom said: The Lord’s Supper (aka Eucharist) is the most important and sacred of all Gospel ceremonies. This Passover based ritual was designed and commanded by Christ for the church to follow.
Matt. 26:27-28 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
To claim that Jesus command for “all” to drink the symbolic red wine of the New Covenant is trivial and “straining gnats” is outrageous and absurd. How can any Christian make such a blasphemous statement?
Like I said, we either follow the genuine Christ or we don’t. Many have embraced a fraud and apparently don’t know it nor do they care. Such are doomed.
As for the children; it has long been practiced to add water to the wine to dilute it. Let’s not use children as an excuse to ignore Christ and practice false doctrine.
Tom said: Reform #8. The SDA's have embraced the Seventh-day Sabbath of the Pharisees instead of the Reformed, New Covenant Sabbath that Jesus teaches in the Gospels.
The SDA's have never understood the proper Gospel Sabbath, and neither has the post-apostolic, Gentile church. When the SDA's grasp the Gospel, they will understand the Gospel Sabbath. But so far, they have failed to comprehend both doctrines correctly.
Response from Bob2: You both are wrong, show me the command within the New Covenant or a direct command from Jesus that Sabbath was to be kept in His kingdom or NC after His death. Before His death He had to live perfectly the OC Law.
Tom said: In the NT, Jesus is shown as a Sabbath Breaker, reforming the OC Sabbath into the NC Sabbath in all four Gospels. This point is self-evident and irrefutable.
He also teaches that his NC Sabbath was made for all mankind, not just for the Jews. This too is an irrefutable fact. But yet you do not believe these words of Christ. So be it. The vast majority rejects the teachings of Jesus, and so too do you.
John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
Tom said: Reform #9. The SDA doctrine of the Pre-Advent Judgment is wrong. It is not Dan 8:14, but Rev 3: 14. Thus the PAJ of the church is the Laodicean Message, not the mythical and non-existent, Investigative Judgment. The SDA's need to admit this fact and act accordingly, which means they must repent and correct their false doctrines.
Response from Bob2: There is a Pre Advent Judgment, and I believe each live will be investigated, that is not tipped off from 1844. The dead can be investigated any time after their death. The living will have Probation until:
Tom said: The PAJ is the LM. The investigation is over. The church has failed badly. Rev 22:11 is only to see who has repented, - as demanded by the PAJ.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
**This point about Rev 3: 14 being the PAJ, -- is a paradigm shifting doctrine that will allow the Advent Movement to go forward to the next level of Gospel understanding. Here is the key that frees Adventism from their cultic prison of false eschatology.
John 8:31-32 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
Tom said: Reform #10. The SDA's must once again understand and embrace genuine Adventist Health Reform. Although this was one area where they were most successful in the 19th century, today they have abandoned the Natural Health movement of which they were once the leaders. They must correct this great error and make up for lost time.
Response by Bob2: I can't eat my beef Ball Park weiner and go to Heaven. Where is that written in Scripture? I've never found Veja links mention in the Scriptures.
Tom said: Jesus was a healer, and so too some of the apostles. Christ associates the Gospel with good health and healing, and thus the SDA’s were correct to embrace Health Reform. Those who value life and health will not deliberately make themselves sick. Nor will anyone filled with the Spirit be led into a lifestyle that invites sickness and disease.
So this is not about salvation, but about helping people live better lives, free of sickness and disease here on earth. Jesus cared about the health and well-being of people and so too must the church.
Matt. 4:24 The news about Him spread throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all who were ill, those suffering with various diseases and pains, demoniacs, epileptics, paralytics; and He healed them.
Luke 5:15 But the news about Him was spreading even farther, and large crowds were gathering to hear Him and to be healed of their sicknesses.
Today, people are inflicted with legions of disease, like the epidemic of diabetes, high blood pressure, and heart problems. These are self-inflicted for the most part and can be cured by a natural diet and exercise. The church has a duty to help people live more healthy lives. Jesus has made this point very clear.
Tom said: Reform #11. The SDA's do not have credible eschatology for the 21st century. The predicted Sunday laws, with which they are so obsessed, cannot be the start of the time of trouble-- because the NT does not support such a position. Thus they need to pay closer attention to both Jesus and Paul's Gospel based eschatology as well as the book of Revelation in order to develop a credible version of Adventist eschatology.
Today, the 3rd Angels Message is no longer united or functional. Which means that the Adventists no longer have an active or credible prophetic message. To solve this problem, the Advent people must move forward to develop and promote the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18.
Here is the point of the Adventist Apocalyptic, and the reason why the Advent Movement exists; to proclaim the final Gospel message and prepare the church for the Second Coming and the end of the world.
Response from Bob2: Why jump to Rev 18 when Rev 14 still have additional angels to be accounted for. So this is a salvific point for you? Believe it as you have stated or die???
Tom said: The Gospel is an eschatological doctrine. Jesus teaches that his followers must ever be alert and ready for the tribulation. The Advent Movement gets credit for discovering the Three Angels Messages of Rev 14, and for teaching that a fourth and final movement will take place just before the end of the world.
Matt. 24:42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
The SDA teaching that Sunday laws start the time of trouble is false. The NT teaches no such thing. So this popular SDA view must be repudiated so that the real cause of the tribulation can be understood.
Luke 21:36 “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
The NT makes it clear that a sudden attack is what starts the time of Trouble.
Rev. 18:8 “For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
Rev. 18:9 “And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning,
Rev. 18:10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’
Tom said: Reform #12. Once the final generation of Christians understands the last Gospel Message, they must prepare for the time of trouble that will precede the Second Coming. They must take action to prepare the church to stand in a manner that reflects and reinforces their eschatology. They must build cities and villages of refuge-- out of harms way-- in preparation for the horror that is to come.
Response by Bob2: Tom, why not go one step further and believe that God will rapture the saints so they won't be harmed. You limit your God. God can protect His own, and I have never seen instructions to build "cities and villages of refuge"!!!!
Tom said: Bob, you speak like a fool. While I appreciate your playing the devils advocate, your comments often make little sense. The Secret Rapture, though popular with some, is not taught in the Bible, and as a former SDA you should know this fact.
Moreover, Jesus teaches that when certain events take place, his followers are to move out of harm’s way. Taking refuge in the higher elevations, away from the large population centers that will soon come under attack.
Matt. 24:14 “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Matt. 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
Matt. 24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
Matt. 24:17 “Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
Matt. 24:18 “Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
The very fact that Jesus gives such specific commands to flee, presumes that those who run to safety have made preparations before hand. In fact, Jesus warns that there should be no delay in this sudden relocation. Those unprepared will have no time to do so.
Matt. 24:19 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Matt. 24:20 “But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt. 24:22 “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Today, it is time for the Advent Movement to update its’ view of eschatology from the 19th to the 21st century. The end of the world is not going to take place the way the Pioneers imagined, but it will take place nonetheless.
Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt. 24:22 “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Today, the last church, meaning all denominations, must submit to the PAJ and repent. All must better understand Gospel eschatology and prepare for the great Tribulation which precedes the 2nd Coming.
This is the specific work of the Advent Movement. It is their destiny.
The end of the world is much closer than ever before. But the church is blind and clueless, unprepared and unsaved; full of corruption and legions of false doctrine.
It is time for the Advent Movement to wake up, REPENT, and go forward to fulfill its’ Gospel destiny.
The 12-point Reform Plan represents the correct path for 21st century Adventism.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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