The SDA Scandal of Abstinence

tom_norris · 06-29-09 9:19 am

Ricky Love asked: Is this quote from Ellen White accurate? Or has the White estate doctored this belief?

“Christ did not contradict His own teaching. The unfermented wine that He provided for the wedding guests was a wholesome and refreshing drink. This is the wine that was used by our Saviour and His disciples in the first Communion. It is the wine that should always be used on the Communion table as a symbol of the Saviour’s blood. The sacramental service is designed to be soul-refreshing and life-giving. There is to be connected with it nothing that could minister to evil. {MH 333.2}”

Answer: This is the real Ellen White speaking.

Ellen White, along with many others, actually believed that wine in the Bible was grape juice. Many in her day viewed alcohol as a drink of the devil that must be stamped out for the good of society. Thus wine became sinful for many in the church.

However, James White was more pragmatic. He understood how difficult it was to keep grape juice from turning into wine, even as he thought many were over reacting about the doctrine of abstinence.

Listen to the White Estate admit that there was NO such drink as unfermented grape juice during this time period. Wine was wine, not grape juice.

In the nineteenth century, no method had been devised to keep grape juice from fermenting, excepting with ice (which was not a practical alternative).

When the Whites used the term “domestic wine,” they referred to grape juice as free from fermentation as possible. See White Estate notes on Testimonies, vol. 2, pp. 384, 386.

James White More Tolerant

In reference to communion services, James White counseled in 1867:

“This objecting to a few drops of domestic wine with which to only wet the lips at the Lord’s supper, is carrying total abstinence principles to great length. . . .

Know what you use. Let the deacons obtain the cultivated grape, see the wine made, and secured from the air to keep it from fermenting as much as possible.”—Review and Herald, April 16, 1867.

So it looks like James White was not as obsessed with this doctrine, unlike his wife. But it would not matter for much longer; a new product was about to hit the market that would make it easier for the church to promote abstinence with a clear conscience.

Two years later, in 1869, the solution was found. A former Methodist minister invented sacramental grape juice in order to replace fermented wine. The church could now embrace the new doctrine of abstinence and not be hypercritical. Thus a new doctrine was born in many churches.

Sacramental Wine Invented

Thanks to Dr. Welch’s Pasteurized grape juice, many churches could now exchange their fermented wine for grape juice, and thus the Abstinence Movement gained ground in religious practice like never before. The church would now become a great force for the Temperance Movement, which was promoted as part of the will of God and the duty of every Sanctified Christian.

http://www.ctlibrary.com/ch/2005/issue85/10.13.html

In 1869 Dr. Welch’s Unfermented Wine was created specifically for church communion. That was its original purpose and goal. But as time wore on, it would have a much wider appeal.

In 1890 Dr. Welch broadened his market by changing the name to Welch's Grape Juice, and the public embraced this new drink that became popular at the 1893 Chicago World’s Fair.

http://www.vineland.org/history/welchs/index.html

http://fundyreformed.wordpress.com/2006 … m-and-wine

http://archives.umc.org/frames.asp?url= … %2C10%2C39

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:Whs … ent=safari

http://books.google.com/books?id=1wiHf4 … y+of+Welch

Ellen White Wrong

Ellen White was very supportive of the Temperance Movement. This means that she embraced- along with many others -the doctrine of abstinence and prohibition in a passionate, public, and sincere manner. She came from the Methodists, and they were one of the first denominations to switch over to non-fermented wine, even as this is their standard practice today.

So the White Estate has not changed her views on this point. Rather, they have supported her position even though it must now be admitted that she was wrong. But they are afraid to tell the truth and say that she is wrong. So they try and change the facts of church history and theology to make her appear correct. Thus deceiving the SDA Community into thinking that Abstinence is a credible Protestant doctrine, when it is not. Nor will it ever be.

In order to protect a false view of Ellen White, from the White Estate, not Ellen White, the SDA’s claim that the doctrine of abstinence is the will of God. But they are dead wrong on this point. They have misunderstood the use and definition of wine in the Bible and have made fools of themselves by embracing myths from the Temperance Movement that actually reflects the teaching of the Koran, not the Bible.

When Ellen White is wrong, the White Estate pretends she is correct. Because they think if she was ever wrong, she would be considered a fraud. But that is not how any of this works. She had spiritual gifts, but was still wrong on many points. And wine is just one of many.

For example, she was wrong about the Sabbath and needed Andrews to correct her, even as she was wrong about the Law in Galatians and the Two Covenants and needed Waggoner to correct her on these important points.

So Ellen White being wrong about wine is hardly a big deal for those that understand the fact that she had no doctrinal authority. Ellen White is not afraid to be wrong. In fact, she would rather have truth, than pretend. This is why she is to be admired. She was not fearful to admit error or make whatever changes the evidence warranted. But this is not how the White Estate views things.

For those that view Ellen White incorrectly, her errors can be devastating. But Ellen White has had to make many corrections to her theology during her life and there is no reason to think that she wanted the search for truth to stop after she died.

Ellen White supports theological debate and investigation of the issues. This is what she did in 1888, and this is what she would do today about this topic or any other. A willingness to honestly investigate doctrine is necessary for every Christian in every age, and this is what Ellen White would say about wine today.

Ellen White Drank Wine

Notwithstanding Ellen Whites strong stand for abstinence; she drank wine for medicinal purposes. But few modern SDA’s were ever informed of this fact.

So how bad could wine be, if it was used as medicine? That would seem to make it good, not evil. But regardless, there is no debate that she is wrong and so too the SDA’s on this point. Only real wine can be used in the Eucharist. Wine in the Bible is alcoholic, and it has always been this way from the very beginning.

The White Estate on Ellen White drinking Wine:

For example, in the days when nutritional supplements were not available, or when various vegetables and fruit were not easily obtainable, Ellen White suggested that grape juice in the best form available was appropriate as a food supplement for medicinal purposes.5

Obviously she was not suggesting that wine be used as a recreational beverage or as a feature of one’s regular diet.

When she advised “domestic wine” for medicinal purposes, she knew that the sick person needed the nutritional properties of the grape, nutrients that could be assimilated quickly by the body.

Under the circumstances, if the domestic wine contained a little alcohol, it still would have provided more benefit than not taking it.

In 1868, in one of his question/ answer articles, James White wrote:

“During the past year, Mrs. W. has, at three or four times, had feelings of great debility and faintness in the morning. . . . To prevent distressing faintness at these times, she, immediately after rising, had taken an egg in a little pure, domestic, grape wine, perhaps a spoonful at a time, and never thought that this had to do with drugs, as she uses the term in her writings, more than with the man in the moon.

During the past year, she may have used one pint of wine. It is only in extreme cases that the use of wine is justifiable, and then let it be a ‘little wine,’ to gently stimulate those in a sinking condition.”6

Letter 363, 1907, cited in Counsels on Diet and Foods, p. 466. Messenger of the Lord; by Douglas.

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/chapt27.html

So even though Ellen White embraced abstinence, she still drank wine for medicinal purposes. I wonder how many Takoma Park SDA’s were ever been informed of this fact?

Answer: None.

Here is another article from Ellen White in the Health Reformer about her incorrect doctrinal views on wine. It is clear that she was a Prohibitionist and a Temperance supporter.

July 1, 1878 A Lesson for the Times. Number One. By Mrs. E. G. White.

There is but one standard of right in the world, and that is God’s standard. We are all virtually under equal obligations to meet that high standard; and God holds us alike responsible to him. Society may set up artificial differences and regulations but the fixed fact remains the same. Men require women to live up to a standard of purity almost equal with that of the angels, while they erect a standard of quite a different character for themselves. {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 1}

Young men sit down to wine suppers, freely indulge their appetites for intoxicating drink and for tobacco, become reckless in their deportment, vulgar and turbulent in their conversation, and frequently seek low and debased society, excusing themselves under the plea of custom and the ways of the world. But should young ladies follow such a course of dissipation they would be utterly and forever disgraced in the eyes of the whole world. {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 2}

But it is urged, ‘Oh, young men must sow their wild oats.’ This is a terrible fallacy. It should be borne in mind that ‘whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.’ Young men who have plunged into dissipation are already reaping what they have sown. They do not have to wait for mature years to come before they realize that they must pay the penalty for every violation of moral law. Every day we see instances of young men who are debilitated in body and mind, whose morals are debased, and who are prematurely dying because they have transgressed Nature’s laws, and fallen victims to the temptations which the fashions of the world hold out to them. {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 3}

The law of Nature is the law of God; and the penalty of its transgression is visited alike upon men and women. It is not customary to hold fathers equally responsible with mothers for the training of their children. How many sermons are preached, and how much is written concerning the mother’s responsibility; while the father is apparently relieved from all the burden. We would appeal to fathers, in the hope of arousing them to a sense of their God-given responsibility in regard to their children. We would say, Guard yourselves from cherishing any pernicious habit which, by its influence, might have a direct or indirect tendency to weaken the moral susceptibilities of your children. {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 4}

While the mother may be doing her whole duty in educating her children to purity of life, the father too frequently, by his own example, may be opening the door of temptation to his children. His indulgence in wine and tobacco, and other sinful practices, lessen the hideousness of sin in their eyes. In keeping with this immoral course, is the talk that many fathers indulge in before their children, to the effect that the law of God is no longer binding upon man; that it was only for the government of the Israelites; or that it was abrogated at the death of Christ. Intelligent youth are not long in comprehending that where there is no law there is no transgression. The wholesome fear of breaking the commandments of God, grows weaker and weaker in their minds, until the moral perceptions, which have been carefully trained by the mother, grow to be in harmony with the father's sentiments. {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 5}

If men strictly and conscientiously kept the law of God, there would be no drunkards, no tobacco inebriates, no distress, penury, and crime. Liquor saloons would be closed for want of patronage, and nine-tenths of all the misery existing in the world would come to an end. Young men would walk forth with erect and noble forms, free and elastic step, clear eye, and healthy complexions. {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 6}

When ministers, from their pulpits, make loyalty to the law of God disreputable; when they join with the world in making it unpopular; when these teachers of the people indulge in the social glass, and the defiling narcotic, tobacco,--what depth of vice may not be expected from the youth of this generation? The newspaper records of the day, with their annals of crime, murders, and suicides, give the answer, and point out the terrible dangers of the time. {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 7}

The signs exist today which prophecy predicted would characterize the state of society just prior to the second coming of Christ. You have heard much in regard to the authority and sanctity of the law of the ten commandments. God is the author of that law, which is the foundation of his government in Heaven and on earth. All enlightened nations have based their laws upon this grand foundation of all law; yet the legislators and ministers, who are recognized as the leaders and teachers of the people, live in open violation of the principles inculcated in those holy statutes. {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 8}

Many ministers preach Christ from the pulpit, and then do not hesitate to benumb their senses by wine tippling, or even indulging in brandy and other liquors. The Christian standard says, ‘Touch not; taste not; handle not’ and the laws of our physical being repeat the solemn injunction with emphasis. It is the duty of every Christian minister to lay this truth plainly before his people, teaching it both by precept and example. {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 9}

The Bible nowhere teaches the use of intoxicating wine, either as a beverage or as a symbol of the blood of Christ. We appeal to the natural reason whether the blood of Christ is better represented by the pure juice of the grape in its natural state, or after it has been converted into a fermented and intoxicating wine. We maintain that the former is the only symbol properly representing the sacred blood of Christ, and a symbol established by himself; and we urge that the latter should never be placed upon the Lord’s table. {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 10}

It has been declared by some that Christ favored the moderate use of fermented wine, in witness whereof they refer to his miracle of changing water into wine. But we protest that Christ never made intoxicating wine; such an act would have been contrary to all the teachings and example of his life. He was the Angel who led the children of Israel in the wilderness. He spoke the law from Sinai. He prohibited those who officiated in holy office from using wine; and his reasons for so doing are explicit; viz., that they may have clear judgment to distinguish between the common and the sacred, to do justice to the fatherless and widows, to teach his statutes and laws to Israel, and to accept no bribes. Those who abolish the law of God for the sake of getting rid of the Sabbath, do away with the most solemn restrictions against using liquor.

{HR, July 1, 1878 par. 11}

He who appeared to the wife of Manoah, and told her she should bear a son, and described his character for strength, and charged her to drink no wine or strong drink, for the child should be a Nazarite from his birth; He who appeared to Zacharias, and gave him directions regarding the unborn John, charging him that the child should drink no wine or strong drink, was not one who would make intoxicating wine and give it to the people upon a wedding occasion. The wine which Christ manufactured from water by a miracle of his power, was the pure juice of the grape. And the object of the Saviour, in this miracle, was to bring the perverted taste of the governor of the feast to a healthy condition, by inducing him to acknowledge that this wine was superior in quality to any he had before tasted. {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 12}

There are those in our day, who, in order to excuse their own sins, follow the example of the Jews, and charge Christ with being a Sabbath-breaker and wine-bibber, notwithstanding he declared that he kept his Father’s commandments, and his whole life was an example of temperance and self-denial. Had he been a wine-bibber he could not have been a perfect offering, and the virtue of his blood would have been of no avail. But this charge, as well as the former, is best refuted by the character and teachings of Christ himself. {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 13}

The Christian church is pronounced to be the salt of the earth, the light of the world. Can we apply this to the churches of today, many of whose members are using, not only the defiling narcotic, tobacco, but intoxicating wine, and spirituous liquor, and are placing the wine-cup to their neighbor’s lips? The church of Christ should be a school in which the inexperienced youth should be educated to control their appetites, from a moral and religious standpoint. They should there be taught how unsafe it is to tamper with temptation, to dally with sin; that there is no such thing as being a moderate and temperate drinker; that the path of the tippler is ever downward. They should be exhorted to ‘look not upon the wine when it is red,’ which ‘at the last biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.’ {HR, July 1, 1878 par. 14}

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/ … =templates

Here is another anti- wine article by Ellen White. She was very much against alcohol in every form.

But so what?

She is wrong on many points about this topic. But this does not mean she is a fraud, just that she had a blind spot and misunderstood the facts. She, like many women, was caught up in the Temperance Movement and thus she allowed the cultural traditions of her day to influence her theology.

But we can forgive her. She was a creature of her time. And thus, thanks to the Temperance Movement, the Country entered into the failed and dangerous period called Prohibition. This was a big mistake that was brought on because of many well-meaning church members from many denominations. The SDA’s need to repent of this utter nonsense that cannot be supported by the Word.

Here is another article from Ellen White. There is no doubt about her position. But she could not be more wrong. Thus the fear of “drunkenness,” which was a real problem for society, drove many into the false doctrine of abstinence. But this is not how doctrine is made. The problems of society are not to control or revise the teachings of the Apostles. This is a great error of Ellen White and the SDA’s. They need to repent for such false, arrogant, and Muslim doctrine.

March 25, 1884 May Christians Manufacture Wine and Cider? By Mrs. E. G. White.

I have received letters from different individuals, inquiring if I think it in accordance with our faith to raise hops, knowing that they are principally used in the manufacture of intoxicating drinks, or to engage in the manufacture of wine or cider for the market. {RH, March 25, 1884 par. 1}

I cannot see how, in the light of the law of God, Christians can conscientiously engage in these pursuits. All these articles may be put to a good use, and prove a blessing; and they may be perverted to a wrong use, and prove a temptation and a curse. Cider and wine may be canned when fresh, and kept sweet a long time, and if used in an unfermented state, they will not dethrone reason. But do we know of what this palatable sweet cider is made?

Those who manufacture apples into cider for the market are not very careful as to the condition of the fruit used, and in many cases the juice of decayed apples is expressed. Those who would not think of taking the poison of rotten apples into their system, will drink the cider made from them, and call it a luxury; but the microscope would reveal the fact that this pleasant beverage is often unfit for the human stomach, even when fresh from the press. If it is boiled, and care is taken to remove the impurities, it is less objectionable. {RH, March 25, 1884 par. 2}

I have often heard people say, ‘Oh! this is only sweet cider; it is perfectly harmless, and even healthful.’ Several quarts, perhaps gallons, are carried home. For a few days it is sweet; then fermentation begins. The sharp flavor makes it all the more acceptable to many palates, and the lover of sweet wine or cider is loath to admit that his favorite beverage ever becomes hard and sour. Persons may become just as really intoxicated on wine and cider as on stronger drinks, and the worst kind of inebriation is produced by these so-called milder drinks. The passions are more perverse; the transformation of character is greater, more determined, and obstinate. A few quarts of cider or sweet wine may awaken a taste for stronger drinks, and many who have become confirmed drunkards have thus laid the foundation of the drinking habit. {RH, March 25, 1884 par. 3}

It is not safe, by any means, for some to have wine or cider in the house. They have inherited an appetite for stimulants, which Satan is continually soliciting them to indulge. If they yield to his temptations, they do not stop; appetite clamors for indulgence, and is gratified to their ruin. The brain is benumbed and clouded; reason no longer holds the reins, but they are laid on the neck of lust. Licentiousness, adultery, and vices of almost every type are committed as the result of indulging the appetite for wine and cider.

A professor of religion who loves these stimulants, and accustoms himself to their use, never grows in grace. He becomes gross and sensual; the animal passions control the higher powers of the mind, and virtue is not cherished. {RH, March 25, 1884 par. 4}

Moderate drinking is the school in which men are receiving an education for the drunkard’s career. So gradually does Satan lead away from the strongholds of temperance, so insidiously do the harmless wine and cider exert their influence upon the taste, that the highway to drunkenness is entered upon all unsuspectingly. The taste for stimulants is cultivated; the nervous system is disordered; Satan keeps the mind in a fever of unrest; and the poor victim imagining himself perfectly secure, goes on and on, until every barrier is broken down, every principle sacrificed. The strongest resolutions are undermined; and eternal interests are not strong enough to keep the debased appetite under the control of reason. {RH, March 25, 1884 par. 5}

Some are never really drunk, but are always under the influence of cider or fermented wine. They are feverish, unbalanced in mind, not really delirious, but in fully as evil a condition; for all the noble powers of the mind are perverted. A tendency to disease of various kinds, as dropsy, liver complaint, trembling nerves, and a determination of blood to the head, results from the habitual use of sour cider. By its use, many bring upon themselves permanent disease. Some die of consumption or fall under the power of apoplexy from this cause alone. Some suffer from dyspepsia. Every vital function refuses to act, and the physicians tell them that they have liver complaint, when if they would break in the head of the cider barrel, and never give way to the temptation to replace it, their abused life-forces would recover their vigor. {RH, March 25, 1884 par. 6}

Cider-drinking leads to the use of stronger drinks. The stomach loses its natural vigor, and something stronger is needed to arouse it to action. On one occasion when my husband and myself were traveling, we were obliged to spend several hours waiting for the train. While we were in the depot, a red-faced, bloated farmer came into the restaurant connected with it, and in a loud, rough voice asked, ‘Have you first-class brandy?’ He was answered in the affirmative, and ordered half a tumbler. ‘Have you pepper sauce?’ ‘Yes,’ was the answer. ‘Well, put in two large spoonfuls.’ He next ordered two spoonfuls of alcohol added, and concluded by calling for ‘a good dose of black pepper.’ The man who was preparing it asked, ‘What will you do with such a mixture?’ He replied, ‘I guess that will take hold,’ and placing the full glass to his lips, drank the whole of this fiery compound.

Said my husband, ‘That man has used stimulants until he has destroyed the tender coats of the stomach. I should suppose that they must be as insensible as a burnt boot.’ {RH, March 25, 1884 par. 7}

Many, as they read this, will laugh at the warning of danger. They will say, ‘Surely the little wine or cider that I use cannot hurt me.’ Satan has marked such as his prey; he leads them on step by step, and they perceive it not until the chains of habit and appetite are too strong to be broken. We see the power that appetite for strong drink has over men; we see how many of all professions and of heavy responsibilities, men of exalted station, of eminent talents, of great attainments, of fine feeling, of strong nerves, and of high reasoning powers, sacrifice everything for the indulgence of appetite until they are reduced to the level of the brutes; and in very many cases their downward course commenced with the use of wine or cider. Knowing this, I take my stand decidedly in opposition to the manufacture of wine or cider to be used as a beverage. {RH, March 25, 1884 par. 8}

When intelligent men and women who are professedly Christians, plead that there is no harm in making wine or cider for the market, because when unfermented it will not intoxicate, I feel sad at heart. I know there is another side to this subject that they refuse to look upon; for selfishness has closed their eyes to the terrible evils that may result from the use of these stimulants. I have a few acres of land that, when I purchased it, was set out to wine grapes; but I will not sell one pound of these grapes to any winery. The money I should get for them would increase my income; but rather than aid the cause of intemperance by allowing them to be converted into wine, I would let them decay upon the vines. And I do not see how our brethren can abstain from all appearance of evil, and engage largely in the business of hop-raising, knowing to what use the hops are put. Those who help to produce these beverages that encourage and educate the appetite for stimulants, will be rewarded as their works have been. They are transgressors of the law of God; and they will be punished for the sins which they commit, and for those which they have influenced others to commit through the temptations which they have placed in their way. {RH, March 25, 1884 par. 9}

Let all who profess to believe the truth for this time, and to be reformers, act in accordance with their faith. If one whose name is on the church book manufacturers wine or cider for the market, he should be faithfully labored with, and if he continues the practice, he should be placed under censure of the church. Those who will not be dissuaded from doing this work, are unworthy of a place and a name among the people of God.

We are to be followers of Christ, to set our hearts and our influence against every evil practice. How should we feel in the day when God’s judgments are poured out, to meet men who have become drunkards through our influence? We are living in the antitypical day of atonement, and our cases must soon come in review before God. How shall we stand in the courts of Heaven, if our course of action has encouraged the use of stimulants that pervert reason, and are destructive of virtue, purity, and the love of God? {RH, March 25, 1884 par. 10}

The lawyer asked Christ, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right; this do, and thou shalt live.

Eternal life is the prize at stake, and Christ tells us how we may gain it. He directs us to the written word, How readest thou? The way is there pointed out; we are to love God supremely and our neighbor as ourselves. But if we love our neighbor as ourselves, we shall not throw upon the market anything that will be a snare to him. {RH, March 25, 1884 par. 11}

Love to God and man is the Christian’s whole duty. The law of love is written upon the tablets of the soul, the spirit of Christ dwells in him, and his character appears in good works. Jesus became poor, that through his poverty we might be made rich. What sacrifices are we willing to make for his sake? Have we his love enshrined in our hearts? Do we love our neighbor as Christ loved him? If we have this love for souls, it will lead us to consider carefully whether by our words, our acts, our influence in any way, we are placing temptation before those who have little moral power. We shall not censure the weak and suffering, as the Pharisees were continually doing; but we shall endeavor to remove every stone of stumbling from our brother's path, lest the lame be turned out of the way. {RH, March 25, 1884 par. 12}

As a people, we profess to be reformers, to be light-bearers in the world, to be faithful sentinels for God, guarding every avenue whereby Satan could come in with his temptations to pervert the appetite. Our example and influence must be a power on the side of reform. We must abstain from any practice which will blunt the conscience, or encourage temptation. We must open no door that will give Satan access to the mind of one human being formed in the image of God. If all would be vigilant and faithful in guarding the little openings made by the moderate use of the so-called harmless wine and cider, the highway to drunkenness would be closed up. What is needed in every community is firm purpose, and a will to touch not, taste not, handle not; then the temperance reformation would be strong, permanent, and thorough. {RH, March 25, 1884 par. 13}

The love of money will lead men to violate conscience. Perhaps that very money may be brought to the Lord’s treasury; but he will not accept any such offering, it is an offense to him. It was obtained by transgressing his law, which requires that a man love his neighbor as himself. It is no excuse for the transgressor to say that if he had not made wine or cider, somebody else would, and his neighbor might have become a drunkard just the same. Because some will place the bottle to their neighbor’s lips, will Christians venture to stain their garments with the blood of souls,--to incur the curse pronounced upon those who place this temptation in the way of erring men? Jesus calls upon his followers to stand under his banner, and aid in destroying the works of the devil. {RH, March 25, 1884 par. 14}

The world’s Redeemer, who knows well the state of society in the last days, represents eating and drinking as the sins that condemn this age. He tells us that as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be when the Son of man is revealed. They were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away. Just such a state of things will exist in the last days, and those who believe these warnings will use the utmost caution not to take a course that will bring them under condemnation. {RH, March 25, 1884 par. 15}

Brethren, let us look at this matter in the light of the Scriptures, and exert a decided influence on the side of temperance in all things. Apples and grapes are God’s gifts; they may be put to excellent use as healthful articles of food, or they may be abused by being put to a wrong use. Already God is blighting the grape vine and the apple crop because of men’s sinful practices. We stand before the world as reformers; let us give no occasion for infidels or unbelievers to reproach our faith.

Said Christ, Ye are the salt of the earth, the light of the world. Let us show that our hearts and consciences are under the transforming influence of divine grace, and that our lives are governed by the pure principles of the law of God, even though these principles may require the sacrifice of temporal interests.

{RH, March 25, 1884 par. 16}

What Would Ellen White Say Today?

If asked about this discussion, what would Ellen White say? Would she say that the SDA’s have all the truth on this topic and the matter is closed? Or that the doctrine of abstinence is beyond investigation, challenge, or change? Hardly.

Listen to Ellen White speak to this question:

Investigation of Doctrine:

There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation…

The Lord designs that our opinions shall be put to the test, that we may see the necessity of closely examining the living oracles to see whether or not we are in the faith. Many who claim to believe the truth have settled down at their ease, saying, “I am rich, and increase with goods, and have need of nothing.”

How to Search the Scriptures:

How shall we search the Scriptures? Shall we drive our stakes of doctrine one after another, and then try to make all Scripture meet our established opinions? or shall we take our ideas and views to the Scriptures, and measure our theories on every side by the Scriptures of truth? Many who read and even teach the Bible, do not comprehend the precious truth they are teaching or studying.

Men entertain errors, when the truth is clearly marked out; and if they would but bring their doctrines to the word of God, and not read the word of God in the light of their doctrines, to prove their ideas right, they would not walk in darkness and blindness, or cherish error. Many give the words of Scripture a meaning that suits their own opinions, and they mislead themselves and deceive others by their misinterpretations of God’s word.

As we take up the study of God’s word, we should do so with humble hearts. All selfishness, all love of originality, should be laid aside. Long-cherished opinions must not be regarded as infallible. It was the unwillingness of the Jews to give up their long-established traditions that proved their ruin. They were determined not to see any flaw in their own opinions or in their expositions of the Scriptures; but however long men may have entertained certain views, if they are not clearly sustained by the written word, they should be discarded.

Those who sincerely desire truth will not be reluctant to lay open their positions for investigation and criticism, and will not be annoyed if their opinions and ideas are crossed. This was the spirit cherished among us forty years ago. . . .

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. As long as we hold to our own ideas and opinions with determined persistency, we cannot have the unity for which Christ prayed.

Counsels to Writers and Editors, pages 33-42]

It should be clear that the Self- Righteous SDA’s have embraced many errors. It should also be clear that they cannot use Ellen White to justify either their errors or their stonewalling. She wants them to investigate the issues and make the necessary reforms. She wants them to search for truth and stop being so self-righteous and arrogant.

The new wine of the Gospel cannot be contained in Old Covenant wine skins. Nor can a false organizational system contain the truth of the Gospel. The SDA’s must be reformed and re-organized before they can be useful to anyone.

Matt. 9:17 “Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved.”

Mark 2:22 “No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins.”

Luke 5:37 “And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.

Luke 5:38 “But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.

In conclusion, let the words of Ellen White be understood. When error is discovered, there should be open, honest, investigation and study. Then the truth must be embraced according to the evidence, even if tradition is repudiated in the process.

The SDA doctrine of abstinence is wrong and against the Gospel. It is a false, legalistic, and immature doctrine that was developed by the Sunday keeping, Victorian Temperance Movement, not by the Word of God.

I hope this helps.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1228284303

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

john8verse32 · 06-29-09 10:56 am

as usual, well thought out, well written post if a little long.

But in my experience, that issue is already being ignored by many in the church, and will not be the ultimate reason if the church withers away in the long run.

renie · 06-29-09 2:04 pm

Tom, do you have a source for Ellen's statement saying she drinks a little wine for medicinal purposes?

We have a woman in our church who quotes EGW in sabbath school class until we are all bored to death. She talks all the time about diet and living the perfect life and reads to us long quotes from Ellen.

renie

tom_norris · 06-29-09 4:10 pm

Irene Longfellow Renie asked: Tom, do you have a source for Ellen’s statement saying she drinks a little wine for medicinal purposes?

Yes. The source is the White Estate Web Site. It is contained in the apologetic by Herb Douglas called:

Messenger of the Lord; The Prophetic Ministry of Ellen G. White.

However, the original source is from the Review and Herald, March 17, 1868. It was a public statement in the Review by James White, not Ellen White. So the 19th century leaders were not trying to hide anything. But that cannot be said for those in the 20th century.

Who knows what additional information about wine is in the White Estate. This is just another topic that the White Estate would rather ignore than study.

I never studied this point when I was researching in the White Estate, but as usual, the facts are obviously very different from what the church has taught all these years. Once again proving the point that the SDA’s have so suppressed, manipulated, and revised their history that no one should trust anything that they say or teach.

Here is the quote and the source:

The second principle is that we should do the best we can under all circumstances. For example, in the days when nutritional supplements were not available, or when various vegetables and fruit were not easily obtainable, Ellen White suggested that grape juice in the best form available was appropriate as a food supplement for medicinal purposes.5

Obviously she was not suggesting that wine be used as a recreational beverage or as a feature of one’s regular diet. When she advised “domestic wine” for medicinal purposes, she knew that the sick person needed the nutritional properties of the grape, nutrients that could be assimilated quickly by the body. Under the circumstances, if the domestic wine contained a little alcohol, it still would have provided more benefit than not taking it.

In 1868, in one of his question/ answer articles, James White wrote:

“During the past year, Mrs. W. has, at three or four times, had feelings of great debility and faintness in the morning.

. . . To prevent distressing faintness at these times, she, immediately after rising, had taken an egg in a little pure, domestic, grape wine, perhaps a spoonful at a time, and never thought that this had to do with drugs, as she uses the term in her writings, more than with the man in the moon.

During the past year, she may have used one pint of wine.

It is only in extreme cases that the use of wine is justifiable, and then let it be a ‘little wine,’ to gently stimulate those in a sinking condition.”6

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/chapt27.html

Renie said: We have a woman in our church who quotes EGW in Sabbath school class until we are all bored to death. She talks all the time about diet and living the “perfect” life and reads to us long quotes from Ellen.

No doubt this person will be stunned to know that Ellen White drank wine, regardless if it was for health reasons or not. She probably will not believe this because it goes against everything she thinks she knows about Ellen White and religion.

All SDA’s are taught to think that wine is from the devil and that Ellen White would rather get sick and die than to ever drink such poison. But of course this popular view is obviously very wrong. She did drink wine to make her feel better on a number of occasions, and no doubt so too did others.

This poor soul would also be stunned to know that Ellen White never believed that the IJ is the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message, as all TSDA’s have been indoctrinated to believe. This fact is almost too much for many SDA’s to comprehend.

What would she think if you told her the truth that Ellen White repudiated the doctrine of perfection and changed her view about the law and the Gospel after 1888?

No doubt her cultic head would explode. But it is not her fault. She a victim of the White Estate. She has been brainwashed into believing the fraud of the Takoma Park apologists.

It is sad and I feel sorry for these exploited people. But they need to be told the truth. They need to know the truth and stop embracing the fraud of the White Estate. But guess what? This discussion about Adventist Reform is all over the net. There is no escaping the facts from those that seek truth.

The entire Adventist Community is going to be shocked when they discover how horribly the White Estate has deceived them. Much of what we have all been taught is wrong and full of myth and fraud. It is a tragic situation that will only get worse before it gets better.

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

renie · 06-29-09 9:18 pm

This woman is a perfectionist, Tom. In sabbath school this last week she said that Paul's statement that goes something like this, I do what I don't want to do and don't do what I should do, was before his conversion. That's a perfectionist view point isn't it? I'm told it is.

Thanks, Tom, for the information I asked for. It's just what I wanted.

renie

bob · 06-30-09 1:15 am

I bet she would be more than stunned to find out Ellen was hooked on Vinegar. Not the vinegar we use today. Vinegar in the 19th century was made with bourbon or whiskey and cider and allowed to set in pots for days before using.

Ellen almost died when she finally decided to wean herself off of the booze. I can imagine the anguish she went through as she went through withdrawal.

I wonder if she was writing all the stuff that SDAs now take as Gospel while under the influence? We don't have all the story like how many years she drank, but we do have her account of the withdrawal.

renie · 06-30-09 1:22 pm

Bob, that is interesting. Could I have the source for Ellen writing about her withdrawal? As sure as sin, if I should bring that up, the person is going to want to know where I got that information.

renie

bob · 07-01-09 10:24 pm

OK Irene I will look it up for you.

bob · 07-01-09 11:06 pm

Here it is for all to read thanks to Gilbert Jorgensen and his website VinegarVisions.com

"I had indulged the desire for vinegar. But I resolved with the help of God to overcome this appetite. I fought the temptation, determined not to be mastered by this habit. For weeks I was very sick; but I kept saying over and over, The Lord knows all about it. If I die, I die; but I will not yield to this desire. The struggle continued, and I was sorely afflicted for many weeks. All thought that it was impossible for me to live. You may be sure we sought the Lord very earnestly. The most fervent prayers were offered for my recovery. I continued to resist the desire for vinegar, and at last I conquered. Now I have no inclination to taste anything of the kind. This experience has been of great value to me in many ways. I obtained a complete victory."

Letter 70, 1911, reproduced in Counsels on Diet and Foods, p. 485

Ellen wasn't the saint the White Estate and Historical Adventism make her out to be. One thing for sure she had a bad memory. I wonder if it was caused by imbibing. She would write things diametrically different from previous writings. Do Adventists really trust her? They surely don't follow her council.

The following is a recipe for vinegar: CIDER VINEGAR: Take six quarts of rye meal; stir and mix it well into a barrel of strong hard cider of the best kind; and then add a gallon of whiskey. Cover the cask, leaving the bung loosely in it, set it in the part of your yard that is most exposed to the air; and in the course of four weeks if the weather is warm and dry you will have good vinegar fit for use.

She certainly didn't get hooked on this stuff over night. I wish we had more facts on the length of her problem.

don · 07-01-09 11:51 pm

Ellen wasn't the saint the White Estate and Historical Adventism make her out to be.

That's a relief. lol. Regarding her use of vinegar, I think the timing of her difficulty is important. If she struggled in 1911, then we have to draw some rather serious conclusions about her lack of victory in her life. If she faced her vinegar demon early on, then it comes as not much of a surprise. She reported several struggles in matters of lifestyle in those early days.

For me, the evidence clearly portrays a woman who viewed matters of diet on a practical level rather than a perfectionistic one.

Further Reading from Ministry Magazine:

http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive … 986-04.pdf

bob · 07-02-09 12:56 am

You would. Anything to defend the prophet. They have got ya Don. Aways an answer no matter how feeble. Any answer makes it all alright. This same woman who demanded perfectionism from her flock was at some time during those demands a drunk. Adventism holds her in such great esteem, but the truth is out there and it is showing up in little bits. She wasn't what she or the church claims she was. She belongs in the same category as Mary Baker Eddy, Joe Smith and all the other so called prophets of that era. They all had or have their followers and the followers swear that they have extra Biblical truth. It is called brain washing.

don · 07-02-09 6:46 am

They all had or have their followers and the followers swear that they have extra Biblical truth. It is called brain washing.

My task:To have only one Master, Jesus Christ;

To use the Biblical canon to measure all spiritual assertions;

To acknowledge historical facts;

To respect all humanity...

I have read considerable articles by EGW and have not noticed this demanded perfectionism.

I have not seen or read any evidence that EGW was guilty of being a drunk. Her admission, re: her struggle to give up vinegar, is not enough to implicate her as such. You have more work to do before the your allegation of her being a drunk is convincing.

In the earlier days of the Advent movement, Ellen White often felt so sick she thought she was going to die. I suggest these are not withdrawal symptoms. But, when she felt this way, she apparently turned to vinegar for some relief. Once she decided to give it up, she no longer had the crutch to help her feel better.

She certainly described a psychological dependence on vinegar very similar to the way she felt about eating pork.

The accusation that tSDA's are brainwashed seems more of a belief of the accuser than anything else. It does not seem to be a very useful assertion. People who otherwise lead pretty normal lives being brainwashed? It happens with advertising, I suppose. Bill Clinton's assertion that he did not do such and such could be called brainwashing, I suppose.

I recently took part in a discussion with one of Wayne Bent's followers. Wayne Bent: the one who has recently been found guilty of having sex with minors in New Mexico. Bent admitted to having sex with his daughter-in-law. God told him to do it, he said. When I addressed the matter with Bent's follower, he said that God told him to do it, he had no choice.

When you speak of brainwashing, I am somewhat sympathetic in matters such as Bent's lifestyle. In the traditional use of the term, I have not seen any evidence for brainwashing techniques among Adventist leaders.

don · 07-02-09 7:20 am

They have got ya Don.

Hey, I grew up as an Adventist. I have always been on the inside. lol. I guess I support EGW much like I support my mother. You seem to look for criticism in the same way I look to be supportive. Both stances need to be careful if the search for historical fact is the goal.

I think a useful focus, rather than brainwashing, would be toxic ideas. Those of us in leadership, no matter how minor, need to be aware of toxic Adventism and how to avoid it.

tom_norris · 07-02-09 5:43 pm

Someone said: Ellen wasn’t the saint the White Estate and Historical Adventism make her out to be.

Tom said: This is very true. She is a very different person from what the White Estate claimed, believing in very different things from what they teach.

Too bad the White Estate made her say whatever they wanted her to say, regardless of the context or truth of the matter. Too bad they were given so much power and authority to deceive the church.

Too bad they elevated her to a status she never held, and placed words in her mouth that she never spoke, and doctrines that she did not believe.

The White Estate has ruined the reputation of Ellen White. They have also misrepresented the fundamental theology that defines Seventh-day Adventism. Consequently, they have almost destroyed the Advent Movement with their dishonest manipulation and incompetence.

All SDA’s should be angry for what they have done. All SDA’s should demand a full and complete confession from the White Estate, as well as the record corrected.

SDA Community Deceived

The SDA Community has never been told the truth about Ellen White or church history.

For example, who knew Ellen White was a minor player in Battle Creek compared to her husband James White? The White Estate made it seem she was in charge of everything when this was never true, nor was it even close to being true at any time.

Who knew she drank wine for health reasons?

Apparently she drank a lot of it because she was often sick? But the White Estate hid this fact and taught everyone that she would never drink such poison, when this was not true. Nor was her wine drinking kept secret from the Battle Creek SDA’s. They all knew about it, unlike the Takoma Park SDA’s.

Who knew that Ellen White was not really a vegetarian? She even denied that meat eating was a sin. But the White Estate taught something very different to all.

To our colporteurs in 1889 she counseled: “I advise every Sabbath keeping canvasser to avoid meat eating, not because it is regarded as sin to eat meat, but because it is not healthful.” Ellen G. White manuscript 15, 1889.

Who knew she had no doctrinal authority whatsoever, and that she even misunderstood some of her own visions?

Who knew that she had the Sabbath wrong for a decade until J. N. Andrews corrected her from the Bible?

Who knew that she changed her views on a number of important doctrinal points, (the Sabbath, law in Galatians, and even the definition of the Gospel), or that she and Uriah Smith became lifelong enemies after 1888?

And who knew that she refused to allow anyone to read her writings from the pulpit or place them in the Sabbath School lessons? Something that became common place in Takoma Park, thanks to the White Estate.

The list goes on and on…the real Ellen White has not been properly understood by the modern SDA’s. Nor do they know her mind or her theology. Thanks to the wretched White Estate.

The White Estate is the Problem

Let all understand that Ellen White was NOT a fraud, but the White Estate is. They are guilty of promoting a fraudulent and mythical version of Ellen White for their own twisted agenda. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

Had the White Estate not manipulated and suppressed the record, we would not be having this discussion. Nor would there have been any reason for Glacier View to occur.

Had the church told the truth about Ellen White, including the 1888 debates and the historical context of all her writings, there would be no problem. But they covered up so much, for so long, that they don’t know how to respond to the truth,- or to this discussion.

They have manipulated the dead Ellen White to say what they wanted her to say for generations, and now they have been caught for all to see. The White Estate has committed monumental consumer fraud that is illegal. It will not stand.

The White Estate has invented a false religion in the name of Ellen White—one that she repudiates. Consequently, Traditional Adventism represents nothing more than a cultic, Sabbatarian scam from the White Estate.

TA does not have the support of Ellen White as everyone has been told for so many years, much less from the Apostles or Reformers. TA is not true, nor does it reflect the great truths from the Three Angels Messages.

Glacier View A Monument to Fraud

The White Estate, which is owned and controlled by the GC, is a den of deception. Until they confess what they have done and correct the record, making proper restitution to all those that bought their books, the SDA’s will continue to self-destruct in cultic stupidity and endless double-talk.

Glacier View, in 1980, is a monument to the fraud of the White Estate. It was the place where the church made official the false story from the White Estate. But few thinking people will buy what the White Estate has promoted anymore, so they give up everything.

This is why Walter Rea, a great Ellen White supporter, left the church and repudiated Ellen White in 1982. He realized that what the White Estate had been promoting was not honest or true. And he was angry for being so badly deceived.

He asked them to explain a number of anomalies, but they could not and would not. So he repudiated everything. Then they tried to make him out to be the problem, when it was their fault all along. But the end result was that Ellen White was slandered unfairly and charged with plagiarism and legalism when the real problem was the dishonest White Estate.

Ellen White was not a fraud or plagiarist. And she repudiated legalism and character perfection after 1888. So she is not the problem. Rather, it was the dishonest Takoma Park apologists. They were the great deceivers and legalists that invented TA as if it had the full support from Ellen White, the Bible, and the Spirit, when it had NO such support.

The White Estate was the problem, and they are still the problem. So much so that one of their greatest doctrinal points about TA has been shown to be a total and complete sham. Ellen White NEVER believed, claimed, or wrote that the IJ is the Judgment Pillar from Historic Adventism. But yet, this is what the SDA church proudly teaches- in the name of Ellen White! They can’t even imagine this not being true. Which is why they divided the church over this cultic nonsense. But it was never true at any time. Nor could it ever be true.

Thus every TSDA has embraced a great lie about Ellen White, the IJ, and the Three Angels Messages. Thanks to the White Estate, the SDA church has been led into Gospel confusion and much false doctrine. This is not the fault of Ellen White, but of her legal caretakers that suppressed her views and censored her story.

I repeat, the church has lied about Ellen White for so long, that they are unable to understand the truth, even if they wanted to, which they don’t. Why? Because it will expose them as great liars and criminals, which they are. So they continue to pretend that all the critics are wrong and they alone have all the truth.

The White Estate has acted so wickedly and criminally in this matter that it defies common sense and decency. No doubt, back in the old days, the White Estate thought they could get away with this fraud forever. But such an assumption was only that. The world changed over the years and secrets became much more difficult to keep.

What was hidden is no longer a secret. The truth has been discovered, verified, and exposed for all to see -and there is no turning back. The truth is going to become known to all, and then the real Ellen White can speak to the Adventist Community without the dishonest filter of the criminal White Estate and the corrupt, self-righteous leaders.

TA is Toxic Fraud

The Adventist Community needs to understand that TA is toxic heresy that Ellen White does not support. Glacier View was an insult to Ellen White, even as Pluralism, which followed, is also an abomination. And so too is a false Gospel and a mythical view of Adventist history and eschatology.

Today, the Advent Movement is stalled until there is a resolution for all this dishonesty, corruption, and misinformation. Without repentance and doctrinal reform, the SDA church has no reason to exist. They cause more trouble than they are worth, even as they give the Advent Movement a very bad name.

The SDA hierarchy needs to be disbanded and replaced by a very different, and honest, organization. Thus the Denomination will remain blind, confused, and unsaved until there is full repentance and Gospel Reform. Half-way measures will not work.

There is no hope for the SDA’s unless they fully repent and return to the Protestant Faith and to the original version of the Three Angels Messages.

Scandal Inevitable

It is only a matter of time before the White Estate is faced with a great public scandal that will eclipse all previous scandals.

It is only a matter of time before the world comes to understand that the SDA’s are the biggest liars and deceivers in the Protestant Church. It will be a sad and embarrassing time for Adventists when all this becomes public and the media catches on to this great scam. Then they will wish that they had been honest and made the necessary corrections when they had the chance.

The SDA Community deserves to know the truth, and so too does the public. The Advent Movement is a great eschatological paradigm that has been derailed by the White Estate’s fraud. For what purpose? On whose authority?

No Adventist should defend what the White Estate has done, or what the church leaders continue to do. To do so is to participate in their great sin, and take positions that are against Ellen White and the Gospel.

Glacier View was a total and complete farce. It was an unjust travesty against the Pioneers and the Gospel. The Advent Movement cannot allow this to stand.

No one should doubt that Ellen White would want the full and complete record of SDA history honestly explained to the Adventist Community. Let no one think that Ellen White supports what the White Estate has done or what they teach today.

If she were alive today, she would demand that the 1888 debates be honestly explained to the church and that an apology be given to Dr. Ford, who was defending the correct Gospel and the correct version of the Judgment in the Three Angels Messages.

She would also condemn Arthur White, and many others for what they have done.

No one should doubt that Ellen White would be livid that her writings have been use to develop and support TA, which actually represents the legalistic theology of her 1888 nemesis, Uriah Smith. She would be furious at the White Estate.

She would also be stunned to know that the modern SDA’s have most everything wrong, and that they think so many strange and untrue things about her. She would quickly understand that they are not prepared for the future events to unfold, nor do they understand their own history correctly.

The Question?

So the great question for the modern SDA church is this? Are they ready to be honest about Ellen White and church history? Are they ready to repent and tell truth about the Fundamentals, or do they still want to pretend that they have done nothing wrong and thus have no need to repent?

At this point, they are still choosing to defend the fraud of Arthur White that was made official at Glacier View. This is the wrong choice. It will only lead to more catastrophe and embarrassment for the SDA church.

Perhaps even some jail time will result for some of the top leaders who were informed of this crime and yet chose to support the consumer fraud of Arthur White anyway? Many may not be aware that they have criminal liability in this matter. So they will be surprised when the court notes their depositions.

But this is how things work in the legal world. There is no pass given to those who were informed of a crime and then choose to ignore, defend, or participate in it. They have become accomplices by choice. Thus many church workers have placed themselves in legal jeopardy by embracing and promoting the fraud of the White Estate. Especially those that have been informed of this crime.

What a mess the SDA leaders have made of things. They are as bad as the Jews.

Gal. 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.

Luke 8:17 “For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light.

Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

Woe is the SDA church if they do not repent.

Tom Norris who knows what the White Estate has done

bob · 07-02-09 7:20 pm

Don said: I have not seen any evidence for brainwashing techniques among Adventist leaders.

Probably because you are not looking. I will testify that the church had me brainwashed for 40 years. It was my own fault. I didn't do my home work. I believed all other churches were Babylon and the Pope was the anti-Christ. I believed that Christians had to tithe because I didn't understand how the tithing system was used in OC history. I believed I couldn't know or express if I was saved. Ellen taught these things and we didn't question her authority.

Tom Norris has done a tremendous amount of homework and most of it is has merit.

I do believe he has let Ellen off the hook for her part in the whole scheme. Yes, everyone used her including James White, but she had to have known what she was doing. Trying to make her a saint by only using the thoughts that are kosher is invalidating much of what she wrote. She said she wrote under the guidance of her angel then later on she changes her thought pattern to a more kosher stance. This is most confusing.

I am thrilled to be out of all that confusion and the corrupt system that Tom has revealed to all of us. I have carefully weighed both sides and I find Adventism wanting.

To be fair, I have not found a group yet that is fully Biblical. That is a poor excuse for not fellowshipping, so I worship with a group of believers each week and praise Jesus. I belong only to Him.

tom_norris · 07-03-09 2:42 pm

Bob Shields said: I will testify that the church had me brainwashed for 40 years.

Tom said: Don’t feel bad. You are not the only one! Millions have been “brainwashed” by the SDA’s. Me included. But guess what? The same thing also happens in every other denomination and religion as well.

Bob said: It was my own fault.

Tom said: It is not your fault. How could it be?

Those that were born into the church had no choice but to embrace what their parents so fervently promoted. This is the way it is with all faiths and religion. Those that were raised Mormon, Catholic, or Muslim grow up to view the world the way they were raised. It is not their fault. It is the way life works for everyone, including the SDA’s.

I was born in an SDA Hospital and raised in Takoma Park, surrounded by SDA’s. I went to SDA schools and had SDA friends. I ate SDA food and absorbed the SDA culture and theology from my youth. So I had no choice in the matter and neither did you.

It could have been much worse. We could have grown up as Mormons.

Bob said: I didn’t do my home work.

Tom said: It is difficult for those brainwashed to know the truth. This is the point of brainwashing. If you know it is taking place it does not work very well. The trick is to make the brainwashing seem normal and true. And the SDA’s, with their publishing empire, hospitals, and educational system made it all seem very credible and true.

Moreover, to make matters more complex, it is also very difficult to understand the Gospel Story, which is really what this debate is all about. The fact that there are so many denominations means that there are many different ways to view the Gospel Story.

So which one is correct?

At the end of time—none of them!

At least that is what the real pre-Advent Judgment teaches in Rev 3. No one has the correct Gospel Story at the end of time, which is why there must be a final time of repentance and reformation in the church prior to the Second Coming. If not, no one in Laodicea would be saved, nor would there be a final Gospel Message.

So the SDA’s didn’t do their homework either, because their claim of having all the truth is the great sin of Laodicea. (Ellen White also makes this clear, but the SDA’s seldom pay any attention to what she says.)

Thus, when someone like Dr. Ford comes along with the truth about the Gospel and the Judgment, as well as hermeneutics and Adventist Prophecy, the SDA’s should have welcomed him as if he were sent from heaven. But that is not what happened, and thus the Takoma Park SDA’s played the part of the Jews and the Papists and repudiated the Gospel. And they will not repent.

Dr. Ford was so slandered by the leaders that many members naturally become suspicious of his views, which were supposedly against Ellen Whites positions. Of course that was not true, but how could one figure this out? With so many church officials, and church publications condemning Dr. Ford’s views, how could he possibly be correct?

Thus many were prevented from doing their homework, which was exactly what the leaders wanted. In fact, the church was hiding the necessary information so that no one could do their homework and figure out the truth.

The church put out so much double talk and disinformation that propaganda won the day and now this is all the SDA’s have to show the world. So the fault lies with the leaders who were deceiving the members about the facts.

Regardless, many people tried to do their homework, and you obviously did too, because you have since changed your mind about TA. So somewhere along the line you started to discount what the SDA’s had taught you. Better late than never.

I did my homework and went into the White Estate to try and figure out what was really going on; other people reacted in different ways to all the debate and confusion. Many just walked out the door in disgust and anger, much of it directed, incorrectly, towards Ellen White as opposed to the White Estate.

So the Adventist Community has gone through a lot of pain and suffering because of the outrageous dishonesty of the church leaders, but that is no reason to let the Advent Movement die, or to assume that Ellen White was a fraud. But it does underscore the need for the church to be REFORMED. This is the point.

It is time for the Adventist Community to STOP allowing their corrupt and incompetent leaders to control things. The unbiblical hierarchy, which is based on the fraud of NT tithe, needs to be removed and replaced with new organizational structure that will allow the Advent Movement to follow truth and go forward within the Adventist Apocalyptic.

The present system, which is a combination of Old Covenant Judaism and the New Covenant Papacy, will never repent or embrace the Protestant Gospel, much less the genuine version of the Three Angels Messages. So why pretend any longer? The present system is evil and wrong and there can be no justification for such great error.

It is time for the Adventist Community to repudiate their lying leaders and take back their church from the wicked wolves that are responsible for all this false doctrine and confusion. There must be serious repentance and reform in the SDA church, or another denomination must be started. The work of the Three Angels Messages must go forward in spite of those wolves that have tried to control and ruin it.

The days of the leaders doing what they want is past. They have been caught in a massive and outrageous fraud about Ellen White and church history and they no longer deserve the trust or respect of the members. No one should support the SDA church anymore until they repent and embrace Gospel Reform.

We have all seen enough evidence to know that the leaders of this church are as corrupt and dishonest as possible. Enough is enough.

The Advent Movement needs to officially apologize to Professor Ford and admit that we have all failed to understand things correctly. We all need to ask his forgiveness and apologize to this great Gospel teacher who has preserved the original version of the Three Angels Messages for future generations.

So I advise that you stay in the Adventist Movement and work for REFORM.

Bob said: I believed all other churches were Babylon and the Pope was the anti-Christ. I believed that Christians had to tithe because I didn’t understand how the tithing system was used in OC history. I believed I couldn’t know or express if I was saved.

Tom said: You believed this way because you were raised to think this way. You had little choice in the matter.

Just be thankful that Mormons did not raise you, because that is a total and complete fraud, while the Advent Church is the genuine extension of the Protestant Movement. It has a real pedigree and mission as well as a credible basis for understanding eschatology, which has been correctly adopted by all denominations today.

So be thankful. It could have been much worse.

But guess what? Every Laodicean, in every other church, has also been raised to believe their own peculiar myths such as the Sunday Sabbath or the Secret Rapture or this unbiblical nonsense that the dead go to heaven and are looking down at us.

There are legions of errors in all denominations, not just the SDA’s. So don’t think that just the SDA’s are wrong and brainwashed; every church at the end of time is guilty of great heresy and spiritual blindness. They are all called to repent and embrace the one and only Gospel and prepare for the Day of Judgment.

But the SDA’s are better positioned than all others. They are sitting on a mountain of truth that one day, will be understood by all.

Why?

Because the Three Angels Messages represent the true path for all in the last days. Even in spite of the many errors that have been associated with this remarkable prophetic paradigm, the Advent Movement is still a great source for truth.

Bob said: Ellen taught these things and we didn’t question her authority.

Tom said; Stop. Ellen White did not teach all these errors as you claimed. Nor did she ever claim to have “unquestioned authority.” This is what the White Estate claimed for her, but they were misrepresenting the facts and deceiving the church for their own self-serving agenda.

Ellen White NEVER had any doctrinal authority in Battle Creek and thus we all need to train our brains to resist the evil indoctrination from the White Estate on this and many other points. We must all be de-programmed.

All SDA’s must understand that much of what they were taught about Ellen White was nothing more than silly fraud. Not even when she had visions did the Battle Creek SDA’s think she had doctrinal authority. This idea about her authority is the evil work of the White Estate.

Moreover, Ellen White never, never, never claimed the IJ to be pillar anywhere, even though the incompetent leaders have convinced everyone that she did.

So there are many points about Ellen White that must be corrected, but of course the leaders refuse to admit to any wrongdoing. Thus, the White Estate needs to be shut down until they can learn to tell the truth and correct the record, and this is exactly what the courts will be asked to do if they do not step forward and confess what they have done. A receiver will be appointed and then the record will be corrected anyway.

So one way or another, this massive fraud in the White Estate is not going to last. They have been caught and it is only a matter of time before the Adventist Community and Ellen White receive relief and justice from their evil and corrupt leaders.

Just think about it, Ellen White would not even allow her writings to be quoted in any Sabbath Sermon, but yet we all grew up hearing her words as part of every Sabbath sermon, -as if her writings were like the Bible. This is not the fault of Ellen White and she should not be blamed for the errors of others.

She also came to understand the Gospel, which cannot be said for many SDA’s like Uriah Smith or Arthur White for example. So it is not really fair to paint her as a legalist.

However, the White Estate was full of legalists and that is why things turned out they way they have. The Takoma Park leaders were clueless about the Gospel, as well as the 1888 debates that were all about the Gospel, and this is why they could not understand what Dr. Ford was saying and why they made such a mistake at Glacier View.

There are many myths that we have all been brainwashed into thinking are true. Thus many embrace the fraud of the White Estate and do not know it. Many think that what they have been taught about Ellen White represents her life story and doctrinal positions, when that is not true at all.

Let all SDA’s understand that Ellen White does not support TA. This means that she repudiates the IJ as a Pillar, as well as the SDA hermeneutic that gives her doctrinal authority. It also means she repudiates Character perfection and would be horrified at Glacier View.

So you need to think differently about Ellen White and what she taught and what she did not. All this is very confusing for the Adventist Community to absorb. They have been brainwashed a certain way for generations. But the White Estate has been caught for all to see, and now things can be explained in detail and the record corrected.

The White Estate must correct the record. They must tell the truth and stop all this confusion, cover-up and lies. They are the ones who have shirked their responsibilities, not you. They are the ones that have caused this mess and no one should blame themselves for the crimes of the White Estate.

Bob said: Tom Norris has done a tremendous amount of homework and most of it is has merit.

Tom said: I would take that as a complement, except for the “almost” part. I assume that you object to my high regard for Ellen White.

Understand that if it was not for Ellen White, the SDA church, and the theology of the Three Angels Messages, would not have survived into the 20th century. Moreover, we would never know what really happened in Battle Creek that caused such a catastrophe.

So if nothing else, Ellen White has proven to be a great historical source for understanding SDA history and theology. She wrote extensively about the 1888 debates and thus there was never any reason to pretend that the church did not know what happened.

It is her writings that tell the truth and condemns the White Estate. It is her record that the SDA Community needs to understand today, because she was telling the truth while the White Estate was not.

Bob said: I do believe Tom has let Ellen off the hook for her part in the whole scheme.

Tom said: First off, SDA theology was not a “scheme.” You must be confusing them with the Mormons. Joe Smith was a total and complete fraud, a con man. But the SDA’s were not. They have a real Protestant pedigree, as well as a compelling mission and message.

Second, Ellen White was the young wife of James White. He was in total charge of the SDA’s, and his wife. So if you want to pick a fight with a Pioneer, James is far more responsible for SDA theology and development than was his wife. And yes, he made a number of errors. But he also did many things correctly, including the development of the Health Message that is so needed today.

Once again, this shows how the White Estate was playing games with church history by teaching that Ellen White was all-powerful, when she was not.

Again, this was not your fault. You trusted and relied on the White Estate to tell you the truth about Ellen White. But they abused this trust and broke the law by perpetrating a massive and ongoing publishing fraud. They deliberately misled you and everyone else about Ellen White and I have no intentions of letting the WHITE ESTATE off the hook.

Did Ellen White make mistakes? Of course. But few know what they are because there has been so much misinformation about her.

But guess what? Her role in 1888 and beyond makes up for all of them. After James White died, her story becomes a remarkable one of courage in the face of great odds. Few know what she went through and how badly the leaders treated her when she refused to rubber stamp their demands to shut down the 1888 debate.

If you knew the real Ellen White, you would be very impressed. She is very different from the fraudulent version that we all grew up with.

Bob said: Yes, everyone used her including James White, but she had to have known what she was doing.

Tom said: You act as if she were a dishonest circus performer or Mother Ann of the Shakers. She was not a con artist and neither were the SDA’s.

But James White did indeed use her gifts to further the SDA cause of the 3rd Angels Message. So what? This is not wrong. This is why she had some gifts in the first place. It was to help the Advent Cause. But under no circumstances did those in Battle Creek give her doctrinal authority like the White Estate did in Takoma Park. Nor did James White promote her like she was promoted in the 20th century.

So you have to be able to separate the real Ellen White of history from the Takoma Park fraud that was created by that cultic fool Arthur White. It is a very difficult thing to understand until the record is officially and publicly corrected. Which is why the White Estate must repent and clean up this mess.

If they don’t, I assure you that they will be faced with a class action suit that will force the issue. They are running out of time.

Bob said: Trying to make her a saint by only using the thoughts that are kosher is invalidating much of what she wrote. She said she wrote under the guidance of her angel then later on she changes her thought pattern to a more kosher stance. This is most confusing.

Tom said: There has been so much nonsense promoted by the White Estate, that a full and complete confession is required. This idea that visions are the source of all truth is not true, nor is this how those in Battle Creek viewed things.

In fact, James White publicly acknowledged that Ellen White had misunderstood her own visions about the Sabbath and thus he was glad, because it proved to all that the visions are not the source of doctrine. He actually printed this in the Review, just as he admitted she drank wine for health reasons.

The great cover up and revisionism about Ellen White took place in Takoma Park. This is where the White Estate hid many things, and developed a sanitized and perfect Ellen White that the leaders claimed had doctrinal authority and great theological powers that were similar to the OT prophets and NT Apostles.

The White Estate promoted her as a saint and a biblical Prophet that wrote scripture and had all the answers. They made all manner of false claims about her authority, what she believed, and what took place in Battle Creek. Thus, the modern SDA’s viewed theology based on the fraud of the White Estate, not on the facts of history. It is a sad tale of religious corruption that has ruined Ellen White and the Advent Movement.

Bob said: I am thrilled to be out of all that confusion and the corrupt system that Tom has revealed to all of us. I have carefully weighed both sides and I find Adventism wanting.

Tom said: Prophecy is clear that at the end of time, the Christian Faith will be reduced to a dangerous farce. This is why every church and denomination in Laodicea has been judged as wretched and full of false doctrine. Including the SDA’s. They have been found “wanting” by heaven, and thus they are judged as blind and naked, doomed to hell if they do not repent and reform.

So while it is good to escape from the clutches of an evil hierarchy that promotes one false doctrine after another, where is the truth to be found?

Where are the genuine Gospel and the real Spirit of Prophecy?

Where is the truth for the last days? You should be thrilled when you find the truth as well as when you escape error. Are you still looking? I hope so.

Bob said: To be fair, I have not found a group yet that is fully Biblical. That is a poor excuse for not fellowshipping, so I worship with a group of believers each week and praise Jesus. I belong only to Him.

Tom said: The SDA’s were supposed to be the group that understood the Bible and Prophecy better than all others. But we can see that they have failed like all those that went before them, because they too have embraced one error after another, even though they did have some very good doctrines that are still true today.

In fact, when the dust settles, it will be discovered that the SDA’s have a remarkable set of doctrines and prophecy that is worth preserving and embracing. The Three Angels Messages, and the 7 pillars they contain represent solid and correct truth for the last church. So even though they have made a huge mess of things, there is still great truth in Adventism.

This is why there is a need for Adventist Reform as opposed to a call for Adventist destruction.

This is why Ellen White needs to be honestly understood and the history of the Three Angels Messages correctly told. She should not be demonized, but the White Estate should be strongly condemned.

There is great truth in Adventism, and it should not be lost because of the sins of the SDA leaders. Rather, the Adventist Community must remove this dishonest and corrupt hierarchy and move forward within the Adventist Apocalyptic to develop the final Adventist Message, the 4th, which will precede the Great Time of Trouble and the Second Coming.

Thus the call to the Laodiceans is a specific call to the SDA’s to repent and confess their many sins and errors. It is a call for them to correct their false doctrines and tell the truth about the Fundamentals that will one day shake and reform every denomination.

Today, the SDA church stands at a crossroad. One path leads to more fraud, corruption, and false doctrine, while the other leads to the 4th Angels Message and to the clearest articulation of the Gospel that the modern world has ever heard.

I suggest that the Adventist Community make the right decision, even if their leaders continue to act like the Jews and Papists and make the wrong choice.

The Advent Movement came into existence because the church leaders in the 1840’s refused to admit their false doctrines, and thus it makes perfect sense that this pattern would also be repeated today.

It is time for truth to overturn fraud, and for the Gospel to prevail within the Advent Movement. I hope you and others agree.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob · 07-03-09 4:09 pm

Tom, just to let you know that I read your complete post and thank you for it.

I still do not concur with you about Ellen White.

Maybe the church hierarchy has done a job on her, but she was the one who wrote all that she did. There is much evidence that she propped up her writings by the term "I was shown" all the while it was her own thoughts. We know this because of all the changes she made over the years. I believe you know some of this,if not I would be willing to inform you. Adventists try to cover all of this. Don is a good example. Hubert is also. I write on CARM where it is done constantly. Many of her grouse statements are found in Early Writings.

You claim she drank wine. I did not know that.

What I do know is that she drank 19th century vinegar and that it was toxic to her body and mind to the extent that it almost killed her per her own statement. We don't know how long she had this condition and we have no idea if she wrote while under the influence.

No, I will never trust her or the church. All I need is provided and I thank the Lord.

bob_2 · 07-03-09 8:39 pm

What is a critical mind and how is one developed. Some on the forum here have suggested an overwhelming pressure from "being born into" a religious mindset, or an area dominated religion, such as Hindu, Buddhism and Muslim.

However, as I have said on other threads, do personal hygiene rules only apply to those born into societies that practice good hygiene that saves lives, or does one have the responsibility when arriving at adulthood of seek what is "truth" and what is the latest greatest info on truth and how I want to influence the world with who I am. Do we really want to make the argument for a passive acceptance of truth?????

I think my now decease Mother for instilling a critical mind in me, that differed with her on many of her own positions. Is one locked in to a birthright. I am here to tell you that is a cop out.

don · 07-03-09 9:12 pm

does one have the responsibility when arriving at adulthood of seek what is truth and what is the latest greatest info on truth and how I want to influence the world with who I am.

This relates to the concept of cross-fertilization. It is an interaction or interchange, as between two or more cultures, fields of activity or knowledge, or the like, that is mutually beneficial and productive.

Cross-fertilization occurs:

When I discuss with the nun sitting next to me at a community Christmas banquet;

When I spend an evening walking among gay pride revellers in downtown Toronto;

When I visit Oak Haven in Michigan; or Wildwood in Georgia;

When I work for a boss who is Hindu;

When my classes meet each and every day;

When I visit with colleagues for lunch in the cafeteria;

When I discuss with people here at atomorrow; etc. etc. etc.

My interaction with the gay revellers will not lead me into the gay lifestyle but it will help me understand them better. And so it is true for all people different than me.

john8verse32 · 07-03-09 9:27 pm

If St Ellen could drink, and St Teresa enjoyed a cool one, maybe we could vote at the next GC meeting to approve tippling with adult quality Welshes at the next footwash.

http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/11/1505.jpg

don · 07-03-09 9:32 pm

The Tendency to be Overly Strict

My grandma, on my mother's side, was a very strict Adventist. My mother held to much of Grandma's strictness in principle but did not adhere to it in practice always. Now, her children aren't very strict at all, by comparison.

It is natural to assume that generations become more and more lax in their standards. That is until one reads the early writings of James White. As the main founder, humanly speaking, of Adventism, his practical mind is a joy to meet in his writings. Notice this from <a href="

http://www.covenantforum.com/cgi-bin/di … 1#POST4941

The Review and Herald, March 17, 1868, page 12

For, while there are exceptions to general rules on almost all points upon which Mrs. W. has written, there are none upon the subject of hoops.

She teaches that stimulating drinks are wrong, yet in a few cases a little wine might be better than water.

She teaches that the use of flesh meats is a great evil, yet in the cases of age and debility, she would advise to make the change slowly. And even in a very few extreme cases, especially in females, a small amount of the least objectionable flesh would be better than suffering, and injury to the offspring.

She teaches that children will do best to take nourishment twice, or at most three times a day; but in the case of. infants, especially if the mother has not had a nourishing diet, they may take nourishment twice as many times each day for a while.

She teaches the use of water as a remedial agent for the sick, and that all may use water, more or less frequently, in quantity and temperature suited to the condition, of persons, yet a bath that would meet the case of that strong man, burning up with fever, might extinguish the life of that feebly person as easily as it would the fire of a feebly burning candle dropped into the same cold water.

She teaches the importance of ventilation. That pure air is necessary to life and health, yet she would not expose herself to cold air, thinly clad, so as to un- necessarily chill and take cold.

She teaches that it is the duty of all Christian women to adopt the reformed dress, with the exceptions of those cases where a rigid father or husband forbids it, causing a constant war which might be a greater detriment to health than an improper style of dress; and also a failure in getting up a neat tasty style of dress. She says to all,Don't put on the short dress till you can put it on right.

She teaches that hoops are a shame, that they are unnecessary, that they are destructive to health, and should be put away. No exceptions here, dear brother, and when you take this as a general rule on all points, you greatly err. The only absolutely strict rule mentioned here is regarding women wearing hoops. Everything else has its practical exceptions.

This was written to a brother in Monroe, Wisconsin who apparently was applying EGW's writings in a stricter manner than James White felt should be done.

There is a tendency in fundamentalist Christianity to be overbearing in applying rules and regulations to the flock. The Pharisees of Jesus day also had the same tendency. This tendency toward strictness ought to be renounced and a more generous attitude adopted by all, IMO.

lijhakim · 07-04-09 1:01 am

Bob, At one time you quoted from EGW on the covenant. apparently there was a discrepancy between the general belief that the Plan of Salvation was formed in counsel between Father and Son BEFORE Creation; and you found a quote that says that the decision for Christ to die on the cross came AFTER Creation.

Do you have that reference? I would appreciate it if you could find it for me. I tried to find it on my CD-ROM without success.

bob_2 · 07-04-09 1:30 am

Could Bob Shields be talking of the final decision of Christ alone in this statement:

Having made the decision, He fell dying to the ground from which He had partially risen. Where now were His disciples, to place their hands tenderly beneath the head of their fainting Master, and bathe that brow, marred indeed more than the sons of men? The Saviour trod the wine press alone, and of the people there was none with Him.

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/da/da74.html

don · 07-04-09 2:42 am

"apparently there was a discrepancy between the general belief that the Plan of Salvation was formed in counsel between Father and Son BEFORE Creation; and you found a quote that says that the decision for Christ to die on the cross came AFTER Creation. Do you have that reference?"

Volume One, The Spirit of Prophecy

This can be found at the EGW online database

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/ … id=default

Chapter IV. - The Plan of Salvation.

Sorrow filled Heaven after Adam and Eve sinned, as it was realized that man was lost, and the world that God created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die.

I saw the lovely Jesus, and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon his countenance. Soon I saw him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with his Father. The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with his Father. Three times he was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time he came from the Father his person could be seen. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with benevolence and loveliness, such as words cannot express.

He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that he had been pleading with his Father, and had offered to give his life a ransom, and take the sentence of death upon himself, that through him man might find pardon; that through the merits of his blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life. (1SP 45.1

Compare this with her later work, http://www.whiteestate.org/books/pp/pp4.html

Patriarchs and Prophets, pages 63.

She seems to be clarifying the very point you have mentioned, Hubert.

The Plan of Redemption

The fall of man filled all heaven with sorrow. The world that God had made was blighted with the curse of sin and inhabited by beings doomed to misery and death. There appeared no escape for those who had transgressed the law. Angels ceased their songs of praise. Throughout the heavenly courts there was mourning for the ruin that sin had wrought.

The Son of God, heaven's glorious Commander, was touched with pity for the fallen race. His heart was moved with infinite compassion as the woes of the lost world rose up before Him.

But divine love had conceived a plan whereby man might be redeemed. The broken law of God demanded the life of the sinner. In all the universe there was but one who could, in behalf of man, satisfy its claims. Since the divine law is as sacred as God Himself, only one equal with God could make atonement for its transgression. None but Christ could redeem fallen man from the curse of the law and bring him again into harmony with Heaven. Christ would take upon Himself the guilt and shame of sin--sin so offensive to a holy God that it must separate the Father and His Son. Christ would reach to the depths of misery to rescue the ruined race.

Before the Father He pleaded in the sinner's behalf, while the host of heaven awaited the result with an intensity of interest that words cannot express. Long continued was that mysterious communing the counsel of peace. Zechariah 6:13) for the fallen sons of men.

The plan of salvation had been laid before the creation of the earth; for Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8 yet it was a struggle, even with the King of the universe, to yield up His Son to die for the guilty race.

But God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16. Oh, the mystery of redemption! the love of God for a world that did not love Him! Who can know the depths of that love which passeth knowledge? Through endless ages immortal minds, seeking to comprehend the mystery of that incomprehensible love, will wonder and adore.

bob · 07-04-09 9:37 am

Thanks Don. Do you see why any thinking person would not want to use Ellen white as their guide into seeking truth? Her writings are full of misrepresentations. She is not in any way needed as an authority on scripture. She only confuses.

Like when she wrote that the reason the Tower of Babel was constructed was because they wanted to escape another flood. This is even reprinted in the Bible Stories for little children to read.

The list of goes on and on.

Adventists severely criticize the anti web sites for revealing the errors. They should be thankful to know the real truth. I certainly am.

Adventists for Tomorrow

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