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J. Knight wrote
There are 2 rests mentioned here: 1. The 7th Day Sabbath and not just any other day. There is only one holy day in the week and it is the 7th Day Sabbath. We are to work for 6 days but the 7th Day is God's holy day; this is the rest he invites people to enter. 2. Rest in God's promised land.
If you are Jewish and do not accept the Gospel which includes the New Covenant then you are close to being correct. Actually there were many Sabbaths including new moons and feast Sabbaths. Israelites entered in to those Sabbath. They have not as a body entered into the Rest the writer was referring to, Jesus Rest. Rest that as Bob-2 explained is to be found every day. Today......
If you insist on continuing with the Old Covenant using just those laws that are convenient or which your prophet has ordained to be relevant then you are missing the target. Jesus told the Jews that not one jot nor one tittle would pass..... Adventist pick and choose. Jesus never preached that. He never condemned the Gentiles for not observing the old covenant because the old covenant was not for Gentiles.
When the writer speaks about "today" he quotes David's Psalm 95:7-8; this is among the Sabbath Psalms in Book 4 of the Psalms (90-106), see for example the title of Psalm 92, where it says, "A Psalm. A Song for the Sabbath day." Today also refers to the 7th Day Sabbath and not just any other day.
How can write that with a straight face J? You have no proof that rest in Heb 4 refers to the 7th day. Remember in my post where I said we should not take a text and add to it. Well that is exactly what you are doing here. The writer was not referring to the rest God has for man as the 7th day. The Hebrews, as I said, had the 7th day down pat and observed it weekly as was the law. They entered that rest without fail. They never entered the rest Christ had for them and most still won't.
Psalm 95:7-8 itself refers back to Israel travelling through the desert at Meribah which means contention or strife, and at Massah which means testing. This is recorded in Exodus 17:1-7, where Israel contended against Moses and tested God. That was one of their rebellions, which meant that 1st generation could not enter God's earthly promised land (Heb. 4:5-6). But some must enter it, so he speaks about David, and the 2nd generation under Joshua who entered the earthly promised land (Heb. 4:6-8). The rest they enjoyed under Joshua refers to that in the earthly promised land, after many years of travelling and fighting (Joshua 22:1-4). Then in Heb. 4:9-11, he reminds his audience that there still remains a rest for God's people, and speaks about God resting on that first Sabbath (Gen. 2:1-3). Heb. 4:11 then says let us be diligent to enter that rest which God himself entered at the end of creation week.
This is inviting people to enter God's 7th Day of rest, not just in letter but in Spirit and in truth. For those who worship God must do so in Spirit and truth, as Jesus said to the Samaritan woman in John 4:24.
Your statement is just not truthful. Today is everyday. are invited to enter a rest that Israelites never entered. Again, they did enter the 7th day command.
Ultimately, all the OT Sabbaths, new moons and festivals were shadows of things to come, the substance of Christ as it says in Colossians 2:16-17. So, yes, we are also to rest in Jesus Christ.
OT Sabbaths were weekly Sabbaths. Festivals were Sabbaths, new moons were Sabbaths. The only other rest was in Jesus and they did not enter it.
Not "also" We are invited to enter His rest, period.
All of those rests point to the eternal rest from rebellion, sin and death, in God’s eternal promised land of the new Heaven and new Earth.
All of the OT rests pointed to the rest we have in Jesus. That is why in Col 2 it tells us that they were shadows and the reality is Christ.
“For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, says the LORD; so shall your descendants and your name remain. From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the LORD.” Isaiah 66:22-23.
Oh yes you continue to quote your "proof texts". This time you did include new moons. Why can't you bring yourselves to quote going out among the dead bodies with the worms? Yes, all those rotting bodies still burning. Watch out when you go out there you don't burn yourself. :-) I Is 65 it tell us that the Israelite would build his home and no one else would occupy it. Here I thought Jesus said He was going to prepare for us mansions. Isaiah 65-66 doesn't read like the Heaven I have envisioned from scripture.
“Then I saw a new Heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more....” Rev. 21:1ff.
“Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.” Rev. 22:14 (NKJV).
“And the Spirit and the bride say, Come!” And let him who hears say, Come! And let him who thirsts come. And whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.” Rev. 22:17.
John in 1John told us what His commandment are. and I will repeat them to you so that you have no doubt and don't continue to try to assume he is referring to the 10. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us[e] commandment.
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While there is apparently no evidence that the Exodus actually occured(such a mass migaration would leave some traces) the Exodus story may be seen as a type of ones personal journey from the bondage of sin to the promised land.
Many important spiritual truths may be learned from viewing the Exodus in that way rather than a historical event that cannot be proven.
What is important about the Sabbath is how the emphasis changes during the course of the journey through life.
At the beginning one must accept God as a being and personal creator that is what Exodus 20 defines.
But at the end of the journey one must see the Sabbath as a testamony to deliverance which is what Deut 7 testifies.
Unfortunately SDAs never get past the first part and by their insistence on the literal seven day creation as basis for Sabbath observance make themselves look ridiculous.
And miss what the Deutronic Sabbath is all about which is a testimony to righteousness by faith.
Unless we accept at the end that it was God's doing not ours we will not cross over the final Jordan.
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John, here are some extra-Biblical sources:
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Bob I disagree with you and you disagree with me on the 7th Day; we cannot reach a consensus on this one.
I am a Gentile who accepts the Gospel and new Covenant in Jesus' blood.
I wrote out Hebrews 4:1-11 to get it in context and show upon which OT texts it is quoting from, so it is not a proof text. You don't seem to understand that much of the NT teaching is actually building upon OT history and themes. You cannot isolate "today" from its OT context and just apply it to any day today without first understanding it in its original context. We must first understand it in its original context before drawing applications to our lives today.
The context and content of Hebrews 4:1-11 is adequate proof to me that the 7th Day is one of the rests stated there. Are you picking and choosing what you like and rejecting what you don't like there?
Why do you keep going on about the dead bodies of Isaiah 66:24? The same Isaiah in 65:17 said in God’s new Creation the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. And Revelation 21: 4 says the former things have passed away. It cannot be in God’s new Creation. Maybe the Isaiah 66:24 fits in with Rev. 19:21, before the 1000 years?
If the former things shall pass away and not come to mind, how can there be everlasting fires? It must mean everlasting in its effect – everlasting annihilation. But it shall not be remembered.
Jesus said in his Father’s house are many mansions (or dwellings) – and he has gone to prepare a place for his disciples (John 14:1-3); I don’t see a problem with this and what is said in Isaiah 65:21. The saved will have more than one place to live!
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2 Cor3: 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
Gal 4:8-10 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!
Days refers to the weekly Sabbath day.
Months refers to new moon celebrations.
Seasons refers to annual seasonal observances like Passover, unleavened bread, first fruits...
Years refers to the sabbatical years.
Paul is telling you there that you are enslaved by the old law you are trying to keep.
Col 2:16-17 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Again Paul tells us we are not bound to the weekly Sabbath, new moons nor festivals. They were shadows.
Romans 14:5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. This verse in its self tells us Paul did not consider the Sabbath an important event.
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.
What, to you is Paul saying here? What does "until" mean to you?
We know the law (Torah) became the schoolmaster law at the Cross. The Torah contained the 10 Commandments. Tell me how the 10 survived. Tell me how the unclean meat laws survived and tell me how the SDA modified tithing law survived.
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J. Knight read these two passages:
John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
and
Matt 12:3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
J. Knight you tell me a day is more important than Jesus or the temple. I don't think so.
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To Bob #105
When 2 Cor. 3:3, 6 etc speaks about the tablets of stone is it not speaking about the Ten Commandments, which were originally written upon stone tablets? See Exodus 24:12; 34:1, 28. This actually says the covenant is the Ten Commandments. See also Deut. 4:13; 5:1-22. This was the old covenant written upon tablets of stone. Jesus gave up his life and established the new covenant with his blood. Matt. 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-24.
The real question is what does this new covenant involve? 2 Cor. 3:3, 6 takes the old covenant which was originally written upon stone tablets and applies the same tablets to our hearts of flesh. In other words the Ten Commandments are to be written by God's Holy Spirit upon our hearts. This is what was promised in Jer. 31:31-34; quoted in Heb. 8:7-13; 10:15-18. Where the Holy Spirit says he will put God's laws in our hearts and write them in our minds. This is all under the new covenant; the New Testament (NT). Remember Paul also taught that God's Spirit will bring the righteousness of God's law into the believer's lives, see Romans 8:1-4. Contrary to popular misconception, Paul was not teaching the complete abolition of God's law; he was teaching that there would be a different Spirit and motivation for obeying God’s will. Out of sheer love because of Christ, crucified and resurrected for our salvation. Christ also taught this when he said, if you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15); and so did John in 1 John 5:3.
2 Cor. 3:15 refers first to the Jews who rejected Jesus Christ, and they did not understand that God's Spirit wanted to bring God's righteousness by faith into the believers’ lives. It also applies to anyone who seeks to their own righteousness by their own efforts, rather than by faith in Jesus Christ.
If the Ten Commandments - Covenant was abolished by Christ's death, why did Jesus and the Apostles still teach from the Ten Commandments throughout the New Testament? See their teachings in Matthew 19:16-19; Mark 10:17-19; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-13. God's Ten Commandments were not abolished in the NT. Why is Revelation 14:12 speaking about the saints, who keep God's Commandments and have the faith of Jesus? I'm not saying that all SDAs are saints; there is good and bad in all of us, any church or religion, but SDA teaching is right on the point about God's Ten Commandments. This does not need reformation. What needs to change is perhaps some of our motivations and ways in which we seek to observe Commandments like the Sabbath. If we live by faith in God's Holy Spirit, we will enter the true Spirit of the Sabbath, how Christ wants us to keep it; when we receive his gift of Righteousness in our practical lives.
The texts quoted: Galatians 4:8-10; Colossians 2:16-17; and Romans 14:5-6 must first be understood in their 1st Century contexts, before applying them to our lives today. What was Paul really teaching in those contexts? Have you read researchers like Samuele Bacchiocchi who did his PhD on the Sabbath - Sunday change in Early Christianity, at the Pontifical Gregorian University, the heart of Sunday observance?
Dr Bacchiocchi rightly said that Paul and Luke continued to observe the 7th Day Sabbath in Acts 13:14,42,44; 16:13; 17:2-4; 18:4. The 1st Century Jewish and Gentile Christians also observed the 7th Day Sabbath, decades after Christ. Jesus himself anticipated and expected his followers, the 2nd generation of Christians in Jerusalem to pray that they would not have to escape the Roman invaders on the Sabbath (Matt 24:20); this applied to AD70. In the NT, there was no Sabbath – Sunday dispute. The first, NT Christians kept the 7th Day Sabbath. Bacchiocchi found that the 7th Day Sabbath was gradually changed, especially after the two Jewish-Roman Wars of AD66-73 and AD131-135. It was mainly because of anti-Jewish reasons; not Biblical or theological ones, those reasons came later.
Bacchiocchi also studied the background, contexts of those texts: Col. 2:16-17; Gal. 4:8-11 and Romans 14:5-6. He found that Colossians 2 was primarily speaking against a Colossian heresy, where they mixed pagan astrological superstitions, with its rules and regulations about the moon, stars and planets into their worship days, which could have been any day of the week. They felt that the day of Saturn (=Saturday) was an unlucky day [S. Bacchiocchi, From Sabbath to Sunday (1977), pp. 343-64]. In Col. 2:16-17, Paul is not abolishing the 7th Day Sabbath. He taught that the handwritten debts against us as sinners were what were nailed to the cross. Paul simply said don’t judge one another by what day is observed. The 7th Day Sabbath and the other Sabbaths, were a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ. Jesus himself fulfilled all those Sabbaths (7th Day, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost, Atonement, Tabernacles etc) in his life and death for our salvation.
In Romans 14 Paul had to resolve a various conflicts over diet, including vegetarianism, and between a strict ascetic group who held certain days of fasting and those who did not. Bacchiocchi notes that this was not an issue in Moses’ Law; and the 7th Day was a day of feasting (a Sabbath feast unto the Lord, Lev 23:1-3) and so these were not being discussed there. Paul was merely teaching that both sides in the debate should respect one another over an optional matter [Bacchiocchi, pp. 364-66]. Critics of Bacchiocchi, like Carson (editor) and Lacey in From Sabbath to Lord’s Day (1982), pp.181-83, agree that “Paul could accept the Sabbath, if it did neither harm harm or good.” Paul’s principle is where people disagree on unclear points of faith (Rom 14), they must not judge each other. As long as each is fully convinced in his mind and lives by that faith, then that is sufficient. God will judge each according to their conscience and the faith they choose to live by (Rom. 2:12-16). The law of love requires that we must respect each other’s differing beliefs.
In Galatians 2, Bacchiocchi [pp.366-69] says that “days” can include any day of the week including the Sabbath day; he saw a similar situation to the Colossians. Although critics like Lacey in Carson, pp. 180-81, are rightly more inclined to see it referring to Jewish Christians and their festivals. But Bacchiocchi was also right when he saw the context of Paul speaking against the misconception of people working for their own salvation, through the observation of days, stars, etc. However, Paul was not abolishing the 7th Day Sabbath, which he himself continued to observe.
You asked about clean and unclean meats. I agree that Paul taught that the distinction between clean and unclean meats was abolished. SDA brought it back as part of its health reforms in the 1850-60s. Personally I still would not eat pork etc., as it is full of parasites, so I abstain for health reasons only. But there is no salvation in merely being healthy! However, 1 Cor. 3:16-17; 6:19 still teaches that our bodies are temples for God’s Holy Spirit and we should not destroy ourselves by our lifestyles. It is God’s Holy Spirit since the Day of Pentecost, who is now here to save us (Titus 3:4-7).
You also asked about tithe. In the Old Testament, the tithe was for the priests, Levites and the poor (Deut. 14). Although the NT does not explicitly speak about this, Jesus and Paul both taught that the ministry should be physically supported, see Matt. 10:1, 9-10; 1 Cor. 9:7, 14. And the NT church collected money and redistributed it for famine relief (Acts 11:28-30; 1 Cor. 16:1-3). Tithing was adopted in SDA in 1876-79 for the practical reason of financing the work and paying the pastors. God’s work still needs to be practically financed by money. I don’t have a problem with 10%, especially when I consider texts like Rom. 12:1, where we are called to present our bodies, holy as living sacrifices, acceptable to God, for this is our reasonable service. When we remember that God and Jesus gave their ALL for us, we should not quibble about giving one seventh of our time back to God, nor one tenth of our income back to him. For we owe our lives, 100% to God and Christ. God was being very generous, when he only asked for 10%.
I am moderately reform minded I do not throw away SDA; my main concern is our misapplication of prophecy, like Dan. 8:14 and Heb. 9:11-12, etc.
Last edited by J. Knight (06-28-11 8:22 am)
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To Bob_2 #106
I rejoice with the paralytic for Jesus' healing works on the Sabbath in John 5:16-18.
The point in Matthew 12:3-8 is that Jesus as Lord of the Sabbath, and greater than the Temple, was not bound by the rules of the Pharisees or the Temple on what could or could not be done of the Sabbath.
Of course Jesus is greater than the Temple and the Sabbath. But it does not say he abolished it.
We are not all Pharisees who believe in the continuing validity of the 4th Commandment. For me the Sabbath is a day of freedom, liberation from work and the cares and concerns of this life. What's wrong with this?
When you get to the New Heaven and New Earth on the Sabbath, where all the saved will worship before God, as prophesied in Isaiah 66:22-23, are you still going to say no to worshipping God on his Holy Sabbath?
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Jesus' healing on the Sabbath has raised certain problems for keepers of the seventh-day Sabbath. Adventists working in hospitals, etc, have always found a "work-around" in this fact. However, we need to look at exactly what Jesus did:
1. His healings were always humanitarian acts. There are a number of other lines of work that are essential, but are not "humanitarian acts."
2. Healing was a part of His mission, why He came to live on earth as a human being. Can we make other lines of work "our mission?" Yes! Of Course. But they might not be humanitarian acts.
3. Jesus never charged for His healing, and was never paid! Thus a medical student or resident who works on weekends to earn money to pay the bills is breaking the Sabbath. If an individual who works on Sabbath gives the money to the church, it will help him to get his motives for working clear!
Questions will arise from this, and the answers are not always easy. If your neighbors car gets a flat tire, and he needs it urgently -- would you help him fix it? Of course.
If your neighbor is restoring a 1935 Pierce Arrow, and needs help to lift out the transmission, would you help? This is a gray area. The issue here is more what your influence will be in the future.
If you are a "checker" at a local grocery store that is open seven days a week, and they need you to work on Sabbath, would you help? The issue here is setting a precedent and would need to be, "no."
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Hubb, let me ask you a question that I asked a Pastor of an SDA Church who is now a President of an SDA Conference. If I was evangelizing and I had the following individuals wanting to become a SDA, tell me what I or the Church should tell him about his every other weekend schedule of work:
1. A Policeman that has Drunk Detail on Friday Night and Saturday duty every other weekend?
2. A Water Treatment Plant Manager who has every other weekend detail?
3. An Anheuser-Busch employee that works everyother weekend.
In your previous post, you indicated that all money made on Saturday should be given to the Church. Can that be part of the tithe that each gives, or in addition to his tithe? If you can supply a source for your answer, Church Manual, or your own opinion or other document. Thanks.
Last edited by bob_2 (06-28-11 5:02 pm)
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J. Knight, Jesus did not abolish the Sabbath, but he FULFILLED the Law, including the Sabbath, in His Flesh and ushered in a New Covenant. Note the following:
Romans 13:8
Romans 14:5
Galatians 5:14
2 Cor 3:7-18
Eph 2:14-18
Col 2: 16,17
Let me give an example that might help. As an Administrator, yearly my management team is to review our policies and procedures and sign the new policies. Do we destroy the old copy? No, we store it, so if anybody looking at a period time when the old policies were in place we can see and remember what those old policies were. We don't abolish them we save them. Same with the Old Covenant to review what happened during that time and what rules were in force. The Old Covenant and its obsolete Law is there for all to read, to be able to understand the History of that time.
Last edited by bob_2 (06-29-11 1:50 pm)
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J, I apologize for not getting back to you. I periodically scan the threads and didn't notice this one.
When 2 Cor. 3:3, 6 etc speaks about the tablets of stone is it not speaking about the Ten Commandments, which were originally written upon stone tablets? See Exodus 24:12; 34:1, 28. This actually says the covenant is the Ten Commandments. See also Deut. 4:13; 5:1-22. This was the old covenant written upon tablets of stone. Jesus gave up his life and established the new covenant with his blood. Matt. 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-24.
If what Moses was carrying down from Sinai that caused his face to glow was not the 10 on stone just what was he carrying? What is the ministry that causes death? Break the Sabbath and die. An eye for an eye. Kill and be killed.
My understanding is that the old covenant is actually what the Jews call the Torah. It is 316 laws that God either wrote or had Moses write. Correct me if I have missed the point.
The real question is what does this new covenant involve? 2 Cor. 3:3, 6 takes the old covenant which was originally written upon stone tablets and applies the same tablets to our hearts of flesh. In other words the Ten Commandments are to be written by God's Holy Spirit upon our hearts. This is what was promised in Jer. 31:31-34; quoted in Heb. 8:7-13; 10:15-18. Where the Holy Spirit says he will put God's laws in our hearts and write them in our minds. This is all under the new covenant; the New Testament (NT). Remember Paul also taught that God's Spirit will bring the righteousness of God's law into the believer's lives, see Romans 8:1-4. Contrary to popular misconception, Paul was not teaching the complete abolition of God's law; he was teaching that there would be a different Spirit and motivation for obeying God’s will. Out of sheer love because of Christ, crucified and resurrected for our salvation. Christ also taught this when he said, if you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15); and so did John in 1 John 5:3.
I have asked the following question many times and as of yet I have not gotten an answer from any SDA: If the Sabbath is written on our hearts then why is it when man is convicted to follow Jesus is he not also convicted to follow the Sabbath? Why is it SDAs have to spend millions to get but a few converts? Why are they not breaking your doors down because they are convicted to observe Sabbath? If the Sabbath was written in our hearts then scripture tell us our hearts would condemn us for not observing it. I can tell you with my most honesty that I never felt condemned for not observing Sabbath when I was a Methodist. My wife can testify the same. It was only through the persuading of Adventists that we were mentally convinced to observe the Israelite Sabbath. Read what John wrote in 1 Jn 3: 1Jn 3: 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God. 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. My heart was never condemned and it isn't now that I have learned that Christians are not under the Sabbath law.
Concerning Jer 31, I read that the new covenant would not be like the Israelite one. God's law for the Christian is the law of love as explained in the previous text written by John. One thing I have observed that Adventists and others do is when they see "law" or "commandments" they automatically put a "10" in front of them. Adventists do this especially in the book of Revelations. This is a bad habit and confuses the reader. As you can see John explains preciously what he means by commandments there in 1John. Read it again and allow it to soak in.
2 Cor. 3:15 refers first to the Jews who rejected Jesus Christ, and they did not understand that God's Spirit wanted to bring God's righteousness by faith into the believers’ lives. It also applies to anyone who seeks to their own righteousness by their own efforts, rather than by faith in Jesus Christ.
15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. True, but the verse should be alive and useful to Christians also. Those who have one foot in the old covenant as do SDAs should especially take this verse to heart.
If the Ten Commandments - Covenant was abolished by Christ's death, why did Jesus and the Apostles still teach from the Ten Commandments throughout the New Testament? See their teachings in Matthew 19:16-19; Mark 10:17-19; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-13. God's Ten Commandments were not abolished in the NT. Why is Revelation 14:12 speaking about the saints, who keep God's Commandments and have the faith of Jesus? I'm not saying that all SDAs are saints; there is good and bad in all of us, any church or religion, but SDA teaching is right on the point about God's Ten Commandments. This does not need reformation. What needs to change is perhaps some of our motivations and ways in which we seek to observe Commandments like the Sabbath. If we live by faith in God's Holy Spirit, we will enter the true Spirit of the Sabbath, how Christ wants us to keep it; when we receive his gift of Righteousness in our practical lives.
If you were trying to prove the Sabbath is still binding by using the verses in your post you would have failed completely. re-read :Romans 13:8-10: 8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
I didn't see Sabbath mentioned once. It is all about love. Love will not covet, love will not steal, love will not murder. It never says that love will keep the old covenant Sabbath. Love will do much more than the old 10 prescribe. Love does not include the old covenant ritual observances including the ritual weekly Sabbath.
The texts quoted: Galatians 4:8-10; Colossians 2:16-17; and Romans 14:5-6 must first be understood in their 1st Century contexts, before applying them to our lives today. What was Paul really teaching in those contexts? Have you read researchers like Samuele Bacchiocchi who did his PhD on the Sabbath - Sunday change in Early Christianity, at the Pontifical Gregorian University, the heart of Sunday observance?
Dr Bacchiocchi rightly said that Paul and Luke continued to observe the 7th Day Sabbath in Acts 13:14,42,44; 16:13; 17:2-4; 18:4. The 1st Century Jewish and Gentile Christians also observed the 7th Day Sabbath, decades after Christ. Jesus himself anticipated and expected his followers, the 2nd generation of Christians in Jerusalem to pray that they would not have to escape the Roman invaders on the Sabbath (Matt 24:20); this applied to AD70. In the NT, there was no Sabbath – Sunday dispute. The first, NT Christians kept the 7th Day Sabbath. Bacchiocchi found that the 7th Day Sabbath was gradually changed, especially after the two Jewish-Roman Wars of AD66-73 and AD131-135. It was mainly because of anti-Jewish reasons; not Biblical or theological ones, those reasons came later.
Bacchiocchi also studied the background, contexts of those texts: Col. 2:16-17; Gal. 4:8-11 and Romans 14:5-6. He found that Colossians 2 was primarily speaking against a Colossian heresy, where they mixed pagan astrological superstitions, with its rules and regulations about the moon, stars and planets into their worship days, which could have been any day of the week. They felt that the day of Saturn (=Saturday) was an unlucky day [S. Bacchiocchi, From Sabbath to Sunday (1977), pp. 343-64]. In Col. 2:16-17, Paul is not abolishing the 7th Day Sabbath. He taught that the handwritten debts against us as sinners were what were nailed to the cross. Paul simply said don’t judge one another by what day is observed. The 7th Day Sabbath and the other Sabbaths, were a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ. Jesus himself fulfilled all those Sabbaths (7th Day, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost, Atonement, Tabernacles etc) in his life and death for our salvation.
In Romans 14 Paul had to resolve a various conflicts over diet, including vegetarianism, and between a strict ascetic group who held certain days of fasting and those who did not. Bacchiocchi notes that this was not an issue in Moses’ Law; and the 7th Day was a day of feasting (a Sabbath feast unto the Lord, Lev 23:1-3) and so these were not being discussed there. Paul was merely teaching that both sides in the debate should respect one another over an optional matter [Bacchiocchi, pp. 364-66]. Critics of Bacchiocchi, like Carson (editor) and Lacey in From Sabbath to Lord’s Day (1982), pp.181-83, agree that “Paul could accept the Sabbath, if it did neither harm harm or good.” Paul’s principle is where people disagree on unclear points of faith (Rom 14), they must not judge each other. As long as each is fully convinced in his mind and lives by that faith, then that is sufficient. God will judge each according to their conscience and the faith they choose to live by (Rom. 2:12-16). The law of love requires that we must respect each other’s differing beliefs.
In Galatians 2, Bacchiocchi [pp.366-69] says that “days” can include any day of the week including the Sabbath day; he saw a similar situation to the Colossians. Although critics like Lacey in Carson, pp. 180-81, are rightly more inclined to see it referring to Jewish Christians and their festivals. But Bacchiocchi was also right when he saw the context of Paul speaking against the misconception of people working for their own salvation, through the observation of days, stars, etc. However, Paul was not abolishing the 7th Day Sabbath, which he himself continued to observe.
Dr. Bacchiocchi Also wrote that in Col 2: 16 that the Sabbath mentioned was the weekly Sabbath. He refuted ellen and her gospel when he admitted this. I would not ever put all my eggs in the good doctor's writings. After all, just like all SDA theologians, there is almost always a slant to the sister's teachings.
Actually there are no verses in scripture telling us that Paul observed the Sabbath. He used the Sabbath to teach the new covenant, what better time to find a large group assembled at one place.
I could quote many anti Sabbitarians just like you quoted Bacchiocchi, but this would not help my debate with you just as quoting the doctor doesn't help me see any value.
You asked about clean and unclean meats. I agree that Paul taught that the distinction between clean and unclean meats was abolished. SDA brought it back as part of its health reforms in the 1850-60s. Personally I still would not eat pork etc., as it is full of parasites, so I abstain for health reasons only. But there is no salvation in merely being healthy! However, 1 Cor. 3:16-17; 6:19 still teaches that our bodies are temples for God’s Holy Spirit and we should not destroy ourselves by our lifestyles. It is God’s Holy Spirit since the Day of Pentecost, who is now here to save us (Titus 3:4-7).
At first ellen was shown that eating swine's flesh was not a issue. Then later it became an issue. James an ellen ate it and I presume it was a staple like it was in most homes. Later she wrote that it made her ill to even smell it. Strange isn't it.
So, I take it from your thoughts that Christians are destroying ourselves by eating pork. Am I wrong to assume that? If we are destroying ourselves that means we are sinning. So, in fact eating pork is a sin just as it was for the Israelite. If it is still a sin why did Jesus abolish the law?
I have reason to believe that sugar destroys the body. Is eating large amounts of sugar like many SDAs do a sin? Is it alright to eat a little sugar? If you say yes then how about a small amount of pork cooked well so that anything harmful would be removed or destroyed?
Do you eat any meat? Did you know that bovines can carry trichinoses and other harmful parasites if not cooked properly? Leprosy, according to ellen, is found in pork. Is this true? If not where did ellen get her thoughts?
People are getting sick and some are dying from using veggies. Now there is no law against eating veggies just as there is no law against eating pork. Your argument becomes confusing.
You also asked about tithe. In the Old Testament, the tithe was for the priests, Levites and the poor (Deut. 14). Although the NT does not explicitly speak about this, Jesus and Paul both taught that the ministry should be physically supported, see Matt. 10:1, 9-10; 1 Cor. 9:7, 14. And the NT church collected money and redistributed it for famine relief (Acts 11:28-30; 1 Cor. 16:1-3). Tithing was adopted in SDA in 1876-79 for the practical reason of financing the work and paying the pastors. God’s work still needs to be practically financed by money. I don’t have a problem with 10%, especially when I consider texts like Rom. 12:1, where we are called to present our bodies, holy as living sacrifices, acceptable to God, for this is our reasonable service. When we remember that God and Jesus gave their ALL for us, we should not quibble about giving one seventh of our time back to God, nor one tenth of our income back to him. For we owe our lives, 100% to God and Christ. God was being very generous, when he only asked for 10%.
I have no qualms about giving 10% or whatever a person desires to contribute. Where I do find fault is with churches that demand all their members to pay tithe. It was never God's will that all should pay it. For churches to demand all to do so and quote, out of context, verses that relate to tithing for their ammunition is disgusting and untrue. Christians are to give as the Spirit speaks to our hearts. There is nothing in the new covenant that requires old covenant tithing and Jesus is nowhere asking for 10% of our income..
I am moderately reform minded I do not throw away SDA; my main concern is our misapplication of prophecy, like Dan. 8:14 and Heb. 9:11-12, etc.
That is a concern for me also.
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Question for Tom Norris;
Subject: The True Church
Is the SDA the true church for the end times?
Bertin
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Answer: Your question cuts to the heart of the matter for the Adventist Community. Are the SDA’s the most doctrinally correct church today, as they often claim? And if so, why?
If not, what denomination is the true church? And where is Gospel truth to be found?
Definition of the Church
First off, how is the last church to be defined? And who determines what Gospel doctrines are true and what group the most honest with the Word?
What would make one denomination greater than another? And what would disqualify any church member from entering the Kingdom of God?
In addition, what will the last church look like? What will they teach about the Gospel and the Sabbath, and eschatology, etc?
The True Church exists Now
The true church has always existed from the time of Christ until the present day. In every age, Christ had those who publically confess his name. Such is the true church- in every age.
Thus the “true church” is not an organized denomination but a collection of “individuals” that follow Jesus as their savior. All that are saved, are done so only on an individual basis, even as their names are entered into the Celestial Book of Life.
Today, the Laodicean church is defined by all those individuals who embrace Jesus Christ as their savior, teacher, and coming Judge, - regardless of their denomination. As a result of their profession of Christ, their names are written in the Book of Life, members of the true and official Kingdom of God.
Phil. 4:3 Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
Rev. 3:5 ‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Rev. 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Rev. 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
No one is saved by any affiliation with this or that denomination. All that are saved, are done so ONLY on an individual basis, not by any religious pedigree. Thus the only membership record that matters for any individual is the Book of Life, which is kept in Heaven.
Rom. 12:5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
1Cor. 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
1Cor. 12:27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.
This Gospel emphasis on the individual is seldom highlighted by organized religion for a reason. Why? Because it greatly diminishes the leaders power and control. Rather then serving the saved, they would rather be served by those trying to be saved, misleading them about the Gospel, and enriching themselves in the process.
Matt. 23:9 “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
Matt. 23:10 “Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
Matt. 23:11 “But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
Matt. 23:12 “Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
Matt. 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
Many churches pretend that membership in their particular denomination is important, even critical, for salvation. But that is not the case. No one is saved because of their church membership, even though many denominations incorrectly teach otherwise. Nor does Christ save any group of people. All are saved as individuals, their individual names written in the Book of Life, which is heaven.
Psa. 69:27 Add iniquity to their iniquity,
And may they not come into Your righteousness.
Psa. 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life
And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
Those who claim to be the best denomination, and claim to have the most truth, are only proving their ignorance of the teachings of Christ. They are underscoring how little they know about the Gospel.
Who is the Greatest?
Unfortunately, the history of the church is just as sad as the story of the Jews who also failed to follow the Word of God. Today, many church leaders fail to grasp the essence of the Gospel, much less the details. They become competitive, looking for ways to control others, exult themselves, and build up a base of power for their own benefit. Thus wolves have come to control the last church.
Acts 20:29 “I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
There is great energy put forth by the church to obtain converts, even as competition between the different denominations is alive and well, as they each strive to build their own self-serving religious Empire; declaring themselves to have all the answers, when they have nothing but false and worthless doctrine.
Such is not the Way of Christ. As Christ was developing the church, the leading apostles began to question who was the greatest and most important. They were so concerned about their own personal standing in the New Covenant that they actually asked Christ for his opinion about who was best.
Matt. 18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
Of course Jesus answer made little sense to those adults that were intent on doing great things for God. His answer to them is the same answer for us today.
Matt. 18:2 And He called a child to Himself and set him before them,
Matt. 18:3 and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt. 18:4 “Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Matt. 23:11 “But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
Matt. 23:12 “Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
Those today who ask, “Who is the best” denomination, - do not understand the Gospel. And neither does anyone that thinks one church is better than the next. Those who serve the most, define true Gospel greatness. Not those who control the most, or have the biggest buildings, or think they have superior doctrines. Because no church at the end of time can boast of anything but false doctrine and worthless works.
Luke 22:24 And there arose also a dispute among them as to which one of them was regarded to be greatest.
Luke 22:25 And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’
Luke 22:26 “But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant.
Those who ask who is the greatest, are blind to the Gospel. The NT record is clear on this repeated point. To ask such a question, or to make such a statement of presumed greatness over others, is to misunderstand the Gospel.
Mark 9:31 For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, “The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later.”
Mark 9:32 But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him.
Mark 9:33 They came to Capernaum; and when He was in the house, He began to question them, “What were you discussing on the way?”
Mark 9:34 But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest.
It is interesting to note that whenever Jesus spoke about his death on the cross, which is the ultimate example of service to others, those around him could not comprehend what he was saying or why. The Cross made no sense to them, and they would often ignore his teaching and then move on to obsess about who was going to be the greatest and have the most control and power over others.
Matt. 20:18 “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem; and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn Him to death,
Matt. 20:19 and will hand Him over to the Gentiles to mock and scourge and crucify Him, and on the third day He will be raised up.”
Matt. 20:20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to Jesus with her sons, bowing down and making a request of Him.
Matt. 20:21 And He said to her, “What do you wish?” She *said to Him, “Command that in Your kingdom these two sons of mine may sit one on Your right and one on Your left.”
Matt. 20:22 But Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They *said to Him, “We are able.”
All those that worried about who was the greatest, lost sight of the Gospel. This is because the two concepts are mutually exclusive. The Gospel is not about who has the greatest control over others, but about service to others.
Matt. 20:24 And hearing this, the ten became indignant with the two brothers.
Matt. 20:25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.
Matt. 20:26 “It is not this way among you, abut whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,
Matt. 20:27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave;
Matt. 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
Other Denominations
As for other denominations, Christ speaks to this point, even before the cross:
Mark 9:38 John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.”
Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, “Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.
Mark 9:40 “For he who is not against us is for us.
Here Jesus teaches that no one is to control others, or to presume that others do not also have the same access to Christ and his Spirit.
The Laodicean Church is the True Church
Today, all those that claim to follow Christ, -are part of the last church. Regardless if they are RC’s, Lutheran’s, Mormons, Methodists, or SDA’s. Any that teach and promote Christ are part of the Laodicean Church, no matter how many errors, sins, or false doctrines they embrace.
Just as Christ loved his apostles when they did not understand the Gospel correctly, so too the Laodicean Church. Even though they have all badly misunderstood the Gospel Story, Christ still considers them his church. Which is why Laodicea, the worst of all church periods, is still the true church of God. Sinful and embarrassing though it be, he loves his wayward church nonetheless.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
Out of all 7 eras of the church, the last one is the worst. Christ has judged all denominations at the end of time,- wrong about the Gospel. So wrong that they are all declared deluded and blind, unsaved, needing to repent and reform or be damned. But they are still his church, at least up to the point where they refuse to repent.
This Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church includes the SDA’s. Which means that they are not the greatest or the most true. In fact, it means that they are also unsaved, full of false doctrine and many errors, needing to repent just like all others.
Rev. 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
While such a blanket condemnation may seem harsh, upon closer examination it is true. The SDA’s have a long list of errors, which prove the PAJ correct. They have the wrong view of the Gospel as well as the Sabbath and the Judgment and even church organization, which is based on OC tithing and an all male priestly hierarchy that was forbidden by Christ.
The Adventists also incorrectly observe the Eucharist, the most holy of all Christian ceremonies, even as they have an impossible view of eschatology that is not supported by the Bible.
The SDA’s have embraced so much error and false doctrine that they too are told by Christ to repent and reform or be lost. Which is the opposite of being proclaimed the greatest and best church.
In fact, a case can be made that the SDA’s are the WORST church, because they have proclaimed themselves to be the smartest and truest of all denominations when there is no basis for such hubris.
In fact, Jesus teaches that no church should instruct others if they don’t first have their own doctrines in order. But the SDA’s have long ignored this important teaching of Christ. They still think they have the most truth and are better than all others when there is no evidence to support such a twisted view. They don’t even have the doctrine of the Sabbath correct, which is their flagship teaching.
Luke 6:41 “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Luke 6:42 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.
Two Types of Laodiceans
There are two basic kinds of Laodiceans in the last “true church;” those that embrace the PAJ and Repent, and those that don’t. Those that refuse to repent of their false Gospel views will not be considered Christians by heaven any longer.
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
The repentant group, from all denominations, will keep their place in the Book of Life and come together, united in following the true teachings of Jesus. They will embrace what the genuine Christ teaches about the PAJ, and the law and the NC Sabbath, and everything else. This will be the remnant. The repentant Israel of God.
At the end of time, just prior to the great time of trouble, the true, repentant church, from all denominations, will come alive with Gospel truth, which includes a final warning about the last Judgment, which is the 2nd Coming.
Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.
Rev. 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;
This last group of Christians will be known for their zealous repentance of false doctrine, and for their honest attempts to follow the Gospel teachings of Christ, including his teaching about the 7th day active Sabbath. They will also be known by their love as well as their straight talk about the end of the world.
In conclusion,
1. Those individuals who claim to be SDA, are part of the last church, along with all others in Laodicea that also profess to follow Christ.
2. The SDA’s, like all others in every denomination, are called to repent in the Pre Advent Judgment of the Laodicean Message and embrace Gospel Reform.
3. Those Christians who fail to repent, will be removed from the Book of Life. They will no longer be part of the true church, even though they may think otherwise.
4. Those from all denominations that repent and move forward in Gospel truth, will become the final true church, the remnant of the Israel of God. They are shown in Rev 18:1.
Let us all repent from their many false doctrines and strive to understand and follow the genuine Christ of the Gospels.
Let the SDA’s lead the way by embracing the genuine Pre Advent Judgment and zealously repenting...
I hope this answers your question.
Tom Norris for All Experts.Com and Adventist Reform
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Tom, whenever I read what you think is the Gospel it is as you have given here: The Gospel plus the Sabbath plus the PAJ. The Gospel needs no pluses, the New Covenant in the NT give plenty of behaviour standard, but it is the Spirit that empowers the Christian to good deed that we are created to produce.
Eph 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
and
Eph 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Gospel plus nothing. Spirit indwelling for the good works man was created to do. As fruit not a plus to the Gospel. Tom, you are making a God of the Sabbath. The behaviour tenets of the New Covenant are stated in the NT for all to read, allow the Holy Spirit to empower to do them.
Note Christ set the law aside in His flesh!! He is our Peace.He is our SABBATH our REST our PEACE.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-28-12 3:35 am)
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Bob2 said: Tom, whenever I read what you think is the Gospel; it is as you have given here: The Gospel plus the Sabbath plus the PAJ. The Gospel needs no pluses, the New Covenant in the NT give plenty of behavior standard, but it is the Spirit that empowers the Christian to good deed that we are created to produce.
Tom said: You are confused.
The New Covenant Sabbath is an important part of the Gospel teachings of Christ. This should be a self-evident fact for anyone tuned into the teachings of Jesus in the NT.
The PAJ of the last church is also part of the Gospel teachings of Christ. In fact, Christ warns the last church, just like he did the Jews, to repent and believe the Gospel or be doomed.
Mark 1:15 “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
At the end of time, Christ has judged the last church as having embraced a totally false Gospel, and not even knowing it. Those who are paying attention to the Words of Christ, will be moved by the Spirit to understand, repent, and reform.
All that follow the true Christ will repent of their many false views, including their confusion and error about the Sabbath, and repent as directed in the PAJ.
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath
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Tom, you run as much danger of requiring more to be saved than too little. But you have chosen too much and you can not prove what you cling to. Your inflamed and damning words will have to be accounted for in the PAJ. The Gospel is not as complicated and you and Gibs make it. Any day can be a day that you can Rest in Jesus.
Hebrews 4: 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.”
Last edited by bob_2 (01-29-12 1:43 am)
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Question for Tom Norris:
I have been an SDA since birth...granddaughter to one of the most zealous of e.g.white followers who so successfully burdened my mother and her siblings with guilt and restrictions that my brother has questions about the existence of God and I have always had doubts as to why "loving and serving God" felt so miserable.
Now my husband (also an SDA from birth) had a very different experience and was not raised in an overbearing/shallow/inconsistent SDA home life. (I still have vivid memories of being able to get our feet wet at a beach on Sabbath, but not above the ankles...because that was wrong)
Because of my questions about E.G White...I have spent ample time trying to wade through SDA, pro E.G white, and anti E.G white (as a source of doctrinal authority/prophet, that is).
I found your article to be very eye-opening....but also disturbing. What do I do with this now?
My husband is open to discussion, but is very wary of anything that goes against our current SDA practices....parents constantly praise us for our leadership roles in our local church and we consistently practice SDA beliefs in our home (and love it, by the way.....I have found a deep, personal love for God that is so fulfilling and wonderful).......
But how can I say I am an SDA when I do not:
1) agree with having a creed (ie 28 fundamental beliefs...so interesting James white stated NOT to have a creed, yet there it is) and
2) I do not agree with ELLEN WHITE being one of the fundamental beliefs. As I am praying constantly for God to use us, to grow His kingdom...
I feel confused because I want to bring people to Christ....not Ellen White.
My husband says this is possible....but I do not see it as possible...because for someone to be baptized into my church, they must accept her as part of our fundamental beliefs! Can you help me, please?
Heidi from Oregon
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Answer: Today, the Advent Movement is in shambles. It has no credible, united, or relevant message about either the Gospel, the Sabbath, or the end of the world. It has become full of confusion, error and corruption, even as millions have walked out the door since 1980. So Heidi, few, if any, are happy with Adventism; you are not alone.
In fact, if the Pioneers were alive today, they too would be upset at the present state of Adventism. Why? Because none of them would recognize the fundamental theology or hermeneutics of the modern SDA church, much less support the official views about the IJ or Ellen White. You can be sure that both James and Ellen White would be outraged at how legalistic, divided, and wrong the SDA’s have become, and so too should we all.
The Pioneers would also be disgusted to discover that the White Estate has hidden and manipulated Ellen White’s writings in order to dishonestly revise church history, even changing her views about the Gospel, the IJ, hermeneutics, and many other things.
So there is a reason why the modern Advent Movement is self-destructing. They brought it on themselves for being so dishonest, incompetent, and legalistic. Now they are paying the price, as legions are very unhappy with what they teach.
While few know the real details of what has taken place, (unless they have found Adventist Reform Online), millions of once loyal SDA’s have left the church in disgust since Glacier View in 1980. Many became angry and hurt as they discovered that they were not told the truth about Ellen White, church history, or the Gospel.
And who can blame them?
The evidence is overwhelming and irrefutable; the White Estate and the Review has deceived the church about many things, especially about Ellen White and the fundamental pillars of the Three Angels Messages. And they are still doing it today. Nothing has changed.
All SDA’s that remain in the church should hang their heads in shame for what happened at 1888 and then again at Glacier View, and for allowing so much corruption and false doctrine to derail the modern Advent Movement. There was no excuse for this massive fraud in the White Estate to have taken place, and there is no reason why it is still going on today, unconfessed; the record not corrected.
The modern SDA’s have become very dishonest and corrupt. So much so, that they have added sin upon sin with their continuing cover-up and spin about Ellen White. This remains the primary reason why people get disgusted and leave the church- Ellen White and her legalism. This is why there are so many angry critics attacking everything Adventist, especially the doctrine of the Sabbath, which is NOT fully correct as the SDA’s assume.
Consequently, the Internet is full of former SDA’s who have understandably rejected Traditional, Old Covenant Adventism, along with Ellen White, the Sabbath, and the IJ. It is remarkable that so many are so angry.
However, without knowing it, the critics are reacting to a false view of Ellen White and the fundamentals, --promoted by the dishonest White Estate. Few know the real Ellen White that the leaders are hiding, much less the genuine pillars and hermeneutic that defines the historic Advent Faith. Thus many assume the Advent Movement is dishonest and useless, beyond redemption or repair, when this is not the case.
Here is a typical list of former SDA’s who have left the church. Why have they become such angry critics? Because the SDA’s have been caught deceiving their own people about Ellen White and church doctrine, and they refuse to repent or correct the record.
Moreover, the SDA’s have embraced the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant, and now people have discovered this sad fact and reject it. So the scandal keeps growing, as people discover that the SDA’s have rejected the Gospel and the NC teachings of Christ. It is an irrefutable and fatal point cannot be denied. Because the SDA’s refuse to repent and make the necessary Gospel corrections, many walk away, as well they should…
Former SDA’s-- Turned Critics:
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-12303 … -Allen.htm
http://www.formeradventist.com/
http://www.gentlybroken.com/index.html
http://www.betterworldbooks.com/leaving … 62296.aspx
http://members.tripod.com/~Help_for_SDAs/index.html
http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/sda/index.html
http://www.amazingfiction.org/
http://www.truthorfables.com/SDA_Directory.htm
http://www.oneflockministries.org/ourstory.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5z76e3KQdw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6D2H-8UxvM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QbM8A3P0ZM
http://www.bible.ca/7-white-inpsired-10 … -fired.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~jcmmsm/story/index.html
http://www.hawaiicatholicherald.com/Hom … fault.aspx
http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/testim01.html
http://www.formeradventist.com/stories/paullorenz.html
http://www.OneFlockMinistries.org/ourstory.html
http://www.truthorfables.com/My_Testimony.htm
http://www.gospeloutreach.net/testimony.html
http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/testim10.html
Wow! What a list. And there are hundreds more…There are legions of former, once loyal, SDA’s attacking what they used to believe. I don’t think there is any denomination in the world today that has so many angry and unhappy former members. It is an amazing phenomenon that shows something is very dysfunctional and wrong with Adventism. How can it stand with so much division?
Mark 3:24 “If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Now multiply this disgruntled group of critics by thousands and thousands and thousands. The fact is this: There are far more FORMER SDA’s in North America than there are members on the church books. (Less than half of those on the books go to church regularly). And in spite of spending millions $$ for propaganda and marketing, more leave all the time, which is why the SDA church cannot grow in North America. Adventist theology is not credible or correct, and their leaders seem to be the last ones to understand this fact.
This situation is not sustainable. It must be addressed and corrected. The Advent Movement is dying at the very time when the church needs to understand 21st century eschatology. The many 19th century views about how the world will end has little value today, so why protect error and try to pretend? The church needs a contemporary, credible view of Gospel Eschatology, one that includes the modern State of Israel, which did not exist when the Advent Movement started.
Today, there can be no denying that the SDA’s are full of error and false doctrine. The majority of their own people, including their best scholars like Dr. Ford and the late Raymond Cottrell, have correctly rejected the IJ and Old Covenant, Traditional Adventism. And more reject it by the day as they go online and see a flood of critics all making the same points.
We live in an age of personal communication that boggles the mind. It has never been easier to access information or discuss the issues. Thus the typical SDA propaganda, censorship, and double-talk no longer controls the debate like in the past. Technology has changed everything.
People today make their conclusions based on their own access of the facts ONLINE, and it no longer matters what the church publishes or promotes. Fancy graphics and big printing presses no longer control the agenda or peoples minds. Everyone can now have a web site, or join a discussion group and speak their mind. It is impossible to censor the critics or control the agenda. So the church needs to stop trying, seeking to become fully honest, repentant, and transparent.
SDA Leadership in Denial
Although the SDA leaders deny there is a crisis, refusing to admit they have any false doctrines, they are clearly delusional, caring little for the search for truth. The men who run the church are paid to do so, and thus their loyalties go to the treasury and to their own self-interest and welfare, not to Gospel truth or to the people they are supposed to serve.
Thus the SDA’s have become very much like the 1st century Jews who embraced the Law and rejected the Gospel, pretending all the while that they were following God, when they were opposing him. This is what the SDA’s did during the 1888 debate and again in Takoma Park. Listen to Ellen White speak to this point:
“Many of the professed teachers of the people are perfectly content to set their stakes and make no advancement themselves, and they are much disturbed when others are induced to seek for truth.”
“When new light is presented, they feel as the Pharisees felt when Christ came with new light for the Jewish nation. They want to stop the increase of light. They not only refuse to search the Scriptures for themselves, but they do all in their power to prevent others from searching." Ellen White, RH, June 29, 1886
The Advent Movement is doomed if changes are not made. They need to once again embrace the search for new light. This crisis situation must be addressed and resolved. The time for double-talk, cover-ups, and propaganda is past. There is no point in trying to fight the growing army of critics by censorship, or by pretending that Satan has tricked everyone but a handful of hardcore SDA’s, who alone are correct. It is time for the church to honestly address the tidal wave of legitimate complaints that are coming from the Adventist Community, - and embrace genuine Adventist Reform.
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/16582/s … a-websites
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=224
How Many Must Leave?
How many more SDA’s must leave the church and become critics before the Denomination realizes that their present views about Ellen White, the Judgment, and the Sabbath are no longer credible or fully correct? At what point does the obvious become acknowledged?
How much longer can the leaders try to block the Gospel light that has been trying to break through to Adventists since before Glacier View?
How many more letters of resignation will have to be written before the leaders wake up and deal with the issues? How many? Here’s another one:
Our Letter of Resignation from the SDA Church
~ July 4, 2009 ~
Dear SDA Church Family:
It is with a combination of sadness and joy that we write you this letter. The sadness comes from our need to request that our names be dropped from membership in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. We cherished the blessing of having you as a church family, and we consider many of you to be dear friends. We praise God for the fellowship and worship we shared with you. We are truly sad that our decision may bring pain and discomfort to anyone; however, we are rejoicing in a newfound understanding of God that has brought us spiritual peace for the first time in our lives.
Our journey out of the church began with questions about the inspiration of Ellen White. We desperately wished to maintain our SDA beliefs, so we approached these questions with great caution. Seeking answers to our questions, Joe read approximately twenty-five Ellen White books and numerous SDA books on the inspiration of Ellen White and SDA history. What Joe found while reading Ellen White was more disturbing than the original questions. In our opinion, Ellen White is a legalist and a perfectionist. We’re not trying to run her down, but we are convinced that she never understood the gospel of grace or the completeness of Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary.
http://sabbatismos.com/our-testimonies/ … on-letter/
http://sabbatismos.com/helpful-websites/
Today, it is clear that the Adventist Community has repudiated official SDA doctrine about the Sabbath, Ellen White, and the Investigative Judgment. And for good reason. The church’s position on these and other doctrines is flat out wrong. This is why there are legions of former SDA’s that have left the church, and why the list keeps growing, - because their complaints have never been honestly answered, even as the leaders refuse to repent and reform.
So the problem is not with those who were asking the questions, or with those who left, but with those who could not honestly address the issues. The problem is with the leaders of the church, as well as with the false system of church government that is modeled after the RCC church, where those at the top control everyone. This is not how the Gospel operates.
Here is another typical list of former SDA’s, by name this time. They are nice, normal people, who have the same basic story, issues, and problems with Adventism. So they left...
Leigh Ann
http://www.gentlybroken.com/leighann.html
Jennifer
http://www.gentlybroken.com/janine.html
Ronald
http://questions4adventist.blogspot.com/
Janie
http://www.gentlybroken.com/janine.html
Royce
http://www.gentlybroken.com/royce.html
Lynn
http://www.gentlybroken.com/lynn.html
Jeffrey
http://www.gentlybroken.com/jeffrey.html
Karen
http://www.gentlybroken.com/karen.html
Christopher
http://www.gentlybroken.com/christopher.html
Pat
http://www.gentlybroken.com/patria.html
Vicki
http://www.gentlybroken.com/vicki.html
Diana
http://www.gentlybroken.com/dianal.html
Chris
http://www.gentlybroken.com/chris.html
Linda
http://www.gentlybroken.com/linda.html
Hazel
http://www.gentlybroken.com/hazel.html
These public testimonies represent only a small fraction of the Adventist Community that has left the Denomination since 1980. For every one person that takes the trouble to set up a web site and/ or write out their complaints, there are thousands, even millions that feel the same way.
Such a situation is not sustainable, nor should it be defended or tolerated. The Advent Movement must face up to its doctrinal problems, and repent, even as they embrace honest, genuine, Gospel Reform. THIS is the only solution.
Mark 3:25 “If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.
SDA Youth
What about the SDA youth of today? How do they feel about Adventist Doctrine? Maybe they are not as critical as the older SDA’s? Maybe they will embrace what the church teaches? After all, the youth are the future of the church. So let’s see what the future is going to look like?
Esther
http://www.gentlybroken.com/esther.html
Diana
http://www.gentlybroken.com/diana.html
Ramone
http://www.gentlybroken.com/ramone.html
Derik
http://www.gentlybroken.com/derik.html
Whoops! It looks like the SDA youth no longer support what the church teaches. And those few that do, will certainly find the critics online, and thus join the great schism that started after Glacier View in 1980 and continues to this very day.
So the defections just keep coming because the denomination refuses to repent for 1888 or Glacier View. Nor do they have any plans to correct their many false views and move forward into the light of the New Covenant Adventism.
More SDA Defections:
Pastor David DePinho's Testimony
“My name is David W. DePinho. I am a chaplain serving on active duty with the United States military. Prior to that I was a civilian pastor in the state of Indiana. In both situations I was serving in the capacity of a Seventh-day Adventist ordained minister. I am no longer a Seventh-day Adventist minister. I now serve as a chaplain for the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE), a 35 million member umbrella organization for small denominations and independent non-denominational churches.”
http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/testimonydd.htm
Cherie Stark, 2005
“I was born to good SDA parents. All my family were SDA's. All of them for generations back. I became SDA generation number 6. Every Sabbath I was taken to church. I loved my Sabbath School teachers, the memory verses and Jesus songs…”
I looked up every verse I could find that spoke of covenants. A picture began to emerge for me and it terrified me. I realized that the Old Covenant with all it’s regulations, including the 10 Commandments, pointed forward to Christ and that at the cross Christ fulfilled that Old Covenant in it’s entirety ending all it’s requirements. He then established a New Covenant replacing the Old.
The New Covenant requires faith in Him. When we believe we receive the Holy Spirit. I began to realize that it is not what we do or don’t do, it’s not what we eat or don’t eat, that makes us right with God but only that we believe in His Son, Jesus.
I began to realize that my ‘being good’ or ‘doing good things’ is only what naturally happens because the Holy Spirit is living in me. Loving my neighbor is only a natural reflection of God’s love to me. I realized that my salvation, instead of being ‘faith plus works’ was ‘faith alone’ from beginning to end. For the first time, I began to see the magnitude of what Christ did for me on the cross. I realized that He took not only my sins on Himself but also the very thing that condemns me as a sinner – the law! I saw for the first time in my life the true gospel!
http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/testimonycs.htm
Tom & Judy Shewmake
Our Journey Out of Adventism
“We were born into the Seventh-day Adventist subculture but during a church evangelistic series we found ourselves examining our long-held beliefs. When we opened our Bibles to discover truth in God’s Word we found ourselves studying our way right out of the SDA church – but first we had to take off our Adventist sunglasses!”
http://www.takingoffadventistsunglasses.org/
Testimony of Leigh Ann Lapinski
Uncovering My Heart
Before I begin, I would like to say that this is not an attack on the members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. The SDA Church is filled with many precious people whom I love and respect greatly. They are people who love God and want only to please Him. This is my testimony of how God led me, through Bible study, out of the SDA Church and into the loving arms of Jesus.
My Seventh-day Adventist exodus is different than most former Adventists. In a sense, I've left the church in 2 parts. It has been 20 years since I physically attended an Adventist church as a member. But it was only recently that my heart and mind were able to finally let go and leave the SDA beliefs behind.
http://sabbatismos.com/our-testimonies/ … -lapinski/
Testimony of Anne Edwards
I grew up in a very traditional, 3rd generation, loving SDA home. My parents were both very committed to the Lord. Most of my 47 years of existence has been lived in very conservative SDA communities. Ellen G. White (EGW) always played a major role in my life. I went through the church school system from 1st - 14th grades. My father worked for the church most of his adult life as did I, until I left Adventism in my early 40s.
Adventism and all of its rules, including the Sabbath, was NEVER a burden for me! I loved being SDA. So no one is more surprised than I that I left. I loved being a part of that community. I was an SDA poster child—a Pollyanna to the core. I obeyed everything to the best of my ability and from all outward appearances I was pretty good at it. I sincerely tried really hard to become righteous.
http://sabbatismos.com/our-testimonies/ … e-edwards/
Testimony of Heidi Burks
I met with an Adventist pastor in the area and asked him some questions about Ellen White, the Investigative Judgment, the law/covenants, etc. I was surprised by some of the things he admitted—that only about 30% of SDA pastors in the United States believe Ellen White was God's messenger (and yet it's a church doctrine!), most SDA pastors believe Adventists are PART of the remnant but not THE remnant (another church doctrine), he doesn't believe the Sabbath will be the "final test," the 1844 message was just plain wrong, etc.
I was disappointed when it came to the covenants, though. He told me that he doesn't really understand them and just gets lost by them. That surprised me, because to me they are very clear. I guess it's the SDA version of them that is so complicated and hard to understand! I ended up removing my name from the SDA membership last year _— _about 8 years after my journey started.
I didn't want to claim to be an Adventist when I clearly disagreed with many of their key doctrines (Ellen White, the Sabbath, the role of the 10 Commandments, 1844 & the Sanctuary, the Investigative Judgment, etc.). I actually still attend an SDA church, although they are far from traditional. They are more like Progressive Adventists, and our pastor rarely preaches the things unique to Adventism—he preaches the gospel and grace instead. He avoids quoting Ellen White from the pulpit, and I agree with most of what he teaches theologically. I don't know how long we'll continue going to an Adventist church. If we didn't like our pastor so much, it'd be easier to leave. Maybe someday!
http://sabbatismos.com/our-testimonies/ … idi-burks/
See also:
http://sabbatismos.com/our-testimonies/ … hristians/
The Beems
Most of you know by now that Arthur and I have removed our membership from the Seventh-day Adventist Church. This has caused much pain for us as we have gone through the process. We are also aware of the disappointment and hurt it has caused you, our dear family. For this we are truly sorry and we hope that you will continue to pray for us. The official letter is attached at the end.
We need to explain why we came to this decision so that you will be assured that was not out of spite or that we have given up on the truth of Christ. As we studied the Bible, we felt a clear separation of paths was being set before us. One was to continue in the Adventist denomination, the other, to follow where Christ was and is continuing to lead us. This juncture may never occur in your walk with Christ, nor do we feel it must. But since it has occurred in our lives, it is imperative that we follow Christ and Christ only, apart from the Adventist denomination.
http://mmoutreachinc.com/seventh_day_ad … ation.html
The list of those leaving the SDA church grows by the day. The Advent Movement is broken and dying for all to see. It is so divided and full of error that it cannot grow, much less prosper. The SDA’s cannot stand without the Gospel.
Mark 3:25 “If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.
Truth in Adventism
While legions have left Adventism because of error, this does not mean there is no truth in the Three Angels Messages. This is a false conclusion promoted by many of the critics, most of which have a chip on their shoulders against Adventism. But this is unfair. There is much truth in the paradigm of the Three Angels Messages. Should the doctrinal contributions of the Adventists be removed, the church would be much worse off, unable to even understand the basics of NT eschatology.
Moreover, just because the critics claim to have found a new argument to disprove the Sabbath does not make it so. Although NCT is what many former SDA’s embrace, it is based on a number of false assumptions as well as dishonest hermeneutics.
While NCT correctly rejects both the Sunday Sabbath and the OC, 7th day Sabbath of the SDA’s, it has failed to find the genuine NC Sabbath of Christ. So NCT is not a part of the solution, but part of the problem. They too need to repent for their false views of the Gospel Sabbath.
NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
Let all understand that while there is still truth in Adventism, it is hidden under a pile of false doctrine and myths that must first be removed and repudiated, like the IJ and Ellen White having doctrinal authority. And until this happens, and the record is corrected about Ellen White and the IJ, not much is going to make Gospel sense.
Today, Adventist history and doctrine is so full of error and myth, that it is not sustainable. Which is why there is an ongoing exodus away from Adventism as both young and old, including Pastors, scholars, and long time members leave in disgust. It is only a matter of time before the entire church structure collapses in an irrelevant heap- unless there is Gospel change.
Matt. 12:25 Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.
Adventism in Crisis
Today, Adventism is locked in an ongoing crisis of self-destruction that is being promoted and sustained by incompetent and corrupt management. There can be no denying that the church leaders have not been honest about Ellen White or church history, even as they have also promoted serious doctrinal errors that must be corrected.
The present situation is not correct or sustainable.
Thanks to the Internet, Anyone can get online and easily find out that the SDA’s have not been honest about either church history or doctrine. As more people discover the dark side of Adventism, more separate, many leaving a written testimony of why they left. Thus warning all to beware the SDA’s.
In such a wired environment, the typical SDA explanations and propaganda no longer works, even as the critics can no longer be censored. The church can control neither information nor communications. Those days are past, especially as more and more people run into the many refugees fleeing from Traditional Adventism. Who would want to join, or remain a member, in such a legalistic, negative, and dishonest church?
The SDA’s are doomed, - unless they repent. Without major reform and doctrinal correction, the Denomination will continue its’ fatal descent into false doctrine, irrelevance, and uselessness.
So what should be done? How should the Advent Community react to all this non-stop confusion, error and schism? What is the best plan to save the Advent Movement?
Adventist Need To Repent
The Advent Movement can no longer pretend they have no error, much less that they have a flawless view of the Gospel, the Sabbath, or how the world will end. Such hubris and arrogance is delusional, especially as one looks out at the Adventist wasteland of the past 40 years. The SDA’s are not better than anyone else. They too are naked and blind, unsaved, just like the rest of Laodicea.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Moreover, the SDA’s are so disoriented that they cannot claim to be following the original eschatology of the Three Angels Messages, which they do not. Nor can they claim that they have been honest with the writings of Ellen White, which they have not.
The SDA’s are so horribly wrong about the Gospel Story and church history that they don’t have a correct view of the Two Covenants or the 2nd Coming, much less the 7th day Sabbath or Ellen White. They don’t even understand how to correctly observe the Lord’s Supper or organize the church according to the NC. On and on this long list of errors goes… Which is why they must repent.
The SDA Scandal of Abstinence
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=238
However, while there is much wrong with SDA doctrine, this does not mean there is no truth within the Advent Movement. There is. No one should forget that Adventism invented modern eschatology, correcting the popular error of post millennialism and changing the way all churches now view eschatology. This was a very correct and necessary contribution that is presently embraced by all denominations today.
More than that, the genuine paradigm of the Three Angels Messages is the correct path for the Laodicean church, and the sooner the SDA’s repudiate the IJ, which was never a “pillar,” and return to the original pillars, the better off they will be. The Advent Movement cannot function properly if the Three Angels Messages are misunderstood or changed, and this is exactly what has taken place. This is why the SDA’s must repent and return to the timeless Gospel Fundamentals that define and empower the Advent Movement.
See: Return to the Pillars
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -FAITH.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … illars.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -FAITH.htm
Glacier View
While many of those that leave the church today are unfamiliar with the RBF debates of the 1970’s or with Glacier View and the exile of Dr. Desmond Ford, this background needs to be better understood by all SDA’s. Here was an opportunity for church to make some serious corrections, but they did the opposite by creating a Creed full of myth and false doctrine.
Dr. Ford and Glacier View
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … r-View.htm
Dr. Ford Interviewed by Tom Norris
http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … /intro.cfm
This is why the church has been self-destructing ever since Glacier View. Here is where the modern SDA church embraced the many errors of Traditional Adventism and declared them to be truth, forming a Creed, which stands as a monument of rebellion against the Gospel and the Pioneers.
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html
See also:
Reflections of a Former Seventh-day Adventist: My Personal Testimony by Richard Maraccini
http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Testimo … fault.aspx
A FALSE Creed
The 27, now 28, Fundamentals gives a false view of the Three Angels Messages, including the IJ as a pillar in the 1st Angels Message and Ellen White as having doctrinal authority. Neither of these positions was ever true, and no 19th century SDA, including Ellen White, would ever agree with these points. This false view of prophecy and church history is the root cause for the great Glacier View schism.
Unless the Adventist Church repents for their many errors, including hiding the 1888 history in the White Estate, and promoting a dishonest cover up in its place, they are eternally condemned. Others will come forward and complete the mission of the Advent Movement. The last church will come to understand the Gospel and the Sabbath correctly, as well as how the world will end. This is the Remnant shown in Rev 18: Thus the true church will go forward with or without the SDA’s.
Unless the SDA’s repent and return to the original 7 pillars of the Adventist Apocalyptic, embracing the Protestant Gospel, repudiating the IJ, and the false hermeneutic about Ellen White, and many other errors, like tithe, they will continue to self-destruct in irrelevance and rebellion against the Gospel.
Adventist Reform
The Advent Movement was all about Gospel Reform. It started out as a paradigm changing Protestant paradigm, focused on the 2nd Coming; making a much-needed correction about eschatology. However, as the SDA’s introduced the new doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath to a Sunday keeping world, they also misunderstood the Gospel and fell into legalism, and they have never been able to escape.
But the mission of Adventism has not changed. It still has a duty to prepare the church for the final Tribulation and the 2nd Coming. Regardless how many errors have been embraced, the Advent people have a duty to repent and complete their destiny to embrace this timely Gospel mission.
The Advent Movement is not complete or finished by any means. It has already corrected the way every church and denomination views the 2nd Coming. And it still has some very important and worthwhile contributions to make. But not in its present form.
Old Covenant Adventism, which is what the SDA’s have become, must give way to NC Adventism. This latter group that will go forward to finish the work and develop the 4th Angels Message, which is a NC paradigm.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … status.htm
It is time for all Adventists to honestly face the issues, confess their many errors and false doctrines, and move forward in Gospel Truth. Thus Adventist Reform is the real answer for the Adventist Community. It is the only answer.
While most critics think Adventism not worth saving or reforming, this is a rash and very wrong assessment. The Advent Movement, when correctly understood, has significant truth for the church, including a major change in the doctrine of the Sabbath that will shock every denomination.
More than that, it was the Adventists that developed a correct view of 19th century eschatology, which all denominations have since embraced. And they have more contributions to make in this area as knowledge increases.
Dan. 12:4 “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”
Here are some points about Adventist Reform, along with some discussion links:
1. All Adventists must admit that their church has lost its way and needs Gospel Reform. There is no longer any point in pretending that all is well within Adventism, or that the SDA’s have no false doctrine.
12- Point Summary of Adventist Reform
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Reform.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … form-2.htm
Adventist Reform
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=234
The Fraud of Traditional Adventism
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=235
2. The church must also admit that the leaders have not been honest or correct about Ellen White or her views. The leaders have hidden, suppressed, and manipulated her writings, taking great care to hide the 1888 debate so they could promote a fraud in its place. The White Estate is guilty of promoting a massive publishing fraud on the public and the Adventist Community, for which they must repent and correct the record.
Hidden Documents
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Estate.htm
Ellen White
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=225
Tom Norris Interview
http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com … orris.html
White Estate Responds
http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com … orris.html
3. The SDA doctrine of the Pre-Advent Judgment is WRONG. Thus the critics are correct, and so too is Dr. Ford. The IJ, which is based on Dan 8: 14, is not the PAJ of the church. Nor does Daniel, an OC Prophet, have any authority to judge or correct the church.
Rather, the correct PAJ for the last church is found in Rev 3: 14, which is the Laodicean Message. Which has already taken place. Christ is the Judge. And the church, meaning all denominations, failed. That’s why all denominations at the end of time must repent and reform, including the SDA’s.
The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227
4. The SDA church is organized in an OC, hierarchical manner. Which is why they pretend their Pastors are like Levitical Priests, and why they embrace the doctrine of OC tithe paying, claiming that the church is the Temple storehouse. It also explains why they own and control every local church, and refuse to allow women to be ordained, or to be the President of the church.
The Fraud of Church Tithing
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=239
There is no such doctrine as a separate, all male priesthood, much less tithing in the church. The SDA position on tithe and church organization, as well as women’s rights, and their view of the priesthood are dead wrong and against the Gospel.
Women's Ordination -
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=880
No Christian should ever practice tithe or in any way support the SDA’s until they confess and repent of this, and other self-serving doctrines, which the leaders have used to create an unbiblical, top heavy, anti-Gospel hierarchy.
The Fraud of Tithing
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=239
(Note: Few SDA’s know that Ellen White refused to follow the SDA doctrine of tithe. She told the leaders that the Spirit was leading her AWAY from this doctrine. Of course the church suppressed this information,)
5. The Gospel Sabbath; The critics don’t have all the answers as they claim, especially when it comes to the Sabbath. While it is easy to find fault and error with the SDA view of the OC Sabbath, it is much more difficult to find NC truth, and the critics have not done this with the Sabbath.
This new idea, (called NCT) that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath and then abolished the weekly doctrine for the church, is absurd and against the NT. There is no such Sabbath doctrine as the critics pretend. So they are just as wrong about the Sabbath as are the SDA’s or the Sunday Keepers.
While the Adventist do have the correct day, (so too did the Jews), they have embraced the wrong doctrine, even the very doctrine of the enemies of Christ. It is time for the SDA’s to repent of their OC errors and embrace the active and reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ, which is clearly taught in all four Gospels. This is the correct Gospel Sabbath for the entire church, even as it will be the Sabbath of the 4th Angels Message.
The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228
SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836
The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242
The Error of NCT
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
6. While the SDA’s thought they had developed the final word on eschatology, this is not true. They have embraced so many errors about the Gospel and the Sabbath, that their views about the end of the world are impossible and absurd. Sunday laws will not start the Time of Trouble, nor do the Adventists have a credible view of how the final events will take place. This must be quickly corrected with a NT view of eschatology.
4th Angels Message
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=769
SDA Eschatology & Israel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=822
The Tribulation
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=768
7. State of the Dead: While the critics assume that the SDA’s are also wrong about this doctrine, they are incorrect. The IJ is a great error and false pillar, but not the Pioneers position about the dead. Few know that the great Martin Luther was correct on this point long before the SDA’s came into existence. He championed this same SDA view.
Luther VS the SDAs (State of the Dead)
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=236
The Advent Movement has plenty of truth for the church. Too bad that most of it is covered up with error, myth, and corruption. What is needed is genuine Adventist Reform, not Adventist destruction or annihilation as the critics claim. The SDA church needs to embrace the true Pre Advent Judgment of Rev 3: 14 and repent, embracing Gospel Reform with both hands.
In conclusion, both you and your husband are correct.
Heidi, you are right to repudiate Old Covenant, Traditional Adventism, along with its false view of Ellen White and the 1980 Creed called the 27 (now 28) Fundamentals. Every Adventist needs to repent for the many false doctrines and myths of Traditional Adventism, demanding that that White Estate tells the truth about Ellen White and 1888.
However, your husband is also correct to understand that the Advent Movement must go forward. And that it has a unique mission to prepare the church for the Tribulation and the 2nd Coming. Thus the Pioneers, including Ellen White cannot be disregarded or manipulated, nor can the fundamental pillars of the Three Angels Messages be ignored or repudiated. This is how Adventism is defined and empowered, and the neglect of these core doctrines is the real reason for the present demise of the Advent Movement.
So what is the answer? What should honest SDA’s do?
The solution is for all SDA’s to repent of their Old Covenant doctrines and become NEW COVENANT Adventists; embracing only what is Gospel based Truth; subordinating all Law to Faith in Christ, even the law of the 4th Commandment.
While such a Protestant, NC correction means the end to many favorite SDA teachings, like the OC Sabbath, the IJ, and Tithe, such reform will reveal new Gospel doctrines for the church, such as a new PAJ in Revelation and a surprising new view about the 7th day Sabbath. This amazing Sabbath doctrine, which Jesus based on the Priesthood of All Believers, represents the genuine Sabbath teaching of Christ, even as it represents the conclusion of Sabbath Reform by the SDA’s.
Today, the only path for the Adventist Movement is Gospel Reform. This is the only way for them to save the original pillars of the Three Angels Messages and reclaim their unique eschatological mission to prepare the church for the Tribulation and the 2nd Coming, - which is their destiny. In other words, it is time for the Advent Movement to move forward from the failed and dysfunctional 3rd Angels Message to the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18. Which is the last Advent Message before the world ends.
This is where the Advent People need to migrate, along with all others who are following Christ and paying attention to the genuine PAJ, which is the LM.
I hope this answer gives all those struggling with Adventism, the resources for further study and Reform.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform and All Experts.Com
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So Tom: Everyone but you, with your caustic attitude needs to repent. You even named a thread that you quote to support your arrogance. "NCT Proven Wrong", which is your label and your conclusion. I would guarantee that all the quoted sources probably don't agree with your version of the NC. Of course just about every denomination has whiners like you. You have never admitted if you still had membership, so I assume you are still an SDA. Is that accurate to write the above if you are still an SDA??? If not an SDA, just go away when you see such stubbornness. At least Sal admits he is RCC and not an SDA. I don't think you do.
Last edited by bob_2 (03-17-12 5:51 pm)
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Bob said: So Tom: Everyone but you, with your caustic attitude needs to repent. You even named a thread that you quote to support your arrogance. "NCT Proven Wrong", which is your label and your conclusion.
Tom replied: Everyone, including Tom Norris, must repent. And so I have.
I was very wrong to believe in the OC Sabbath and tithing, as well as the IJ and many other things, like the doctrine of abstinence, which is this SDA myth that wine in the Bible is grape juice. I believed what the SDA’s taught me.
So yes, I repent from the many errors of Traditional Adventism. I was very naïve, uneducated, and wrong.
As for NCT; it is full of error and worthless doctrine. It is no solution for the errors of Adventism. It is nothing more than hardcore anti-Sabbatarianism, disguised as new Gospel light.
NCT is darkness, not light. It has been easily exposed as a sham on this site for all to see. It has been proven wrong to all but the most rabid supporters, many of which are still angry with the SDA’s. Thus many former SDA’s are using this anti-Sabbath doubletalk as a means of revenge. Sad.
Bob said: I would guarantee that all the quoted sources probably don't agree with your version of the NC.
Tom said: There is only one correct version of the NC Sabbath. At the end of time this Gospel doctrine, like the Gospel itself, will become better understood and embraced by those who are serious about following Christ.
Bob said: Of course just about every denomination has whiners like you.
Tom replied: I am not promoting Adventist complainers or whiners. No. No. It is called Adventist REFORM for a reason. It is Gospel REFORM that is needed. There has been enough complaining, debating, and schism. It is time for real Gospel Reform and UNITY within the Adventist Community.
Bob said: You have never admitted if you still had membership, so I assume you are still an SDA. Is that accurate to write the above if you are still an SDA??? If not an SDA, just go away when you see such stubbornness. At least Sal admits he is RCC and not an SDA. I don't think you do.
Tom said: I have freely admitted my SDA church association. Unlike Sal, I was born, raised, and educated SDA. Today, my name is still on the books as a member, even though I no longer attend or support much of what the Denomination teaches.
However, I still consider myself an Adventist, just not the OC version that is so corrupt, misguided, and wrong.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … 2/x-15.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … status.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … is-SDA.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … 0/x-12.htm
Moreover, you have asked this question before and I answered here on this site. Did you forget?
Bob2, a NCT supporter asked:
1. Is New Covenant Adventism an official organization???
2. Where do you have your church membership, which congregation???
Tom said: NCA is not organized, as yet, nor is it official. But it is being articulated in an organized manner, and explained under the brand of “Adventist Reform.”
More than that, Adventist Reform claims to have located the next Advent Message, which is known as the 4th Angels Message, which includes the final doctrine of the 7th day Gospel Sabbath.
For the record, my membership is at Capitol Memorial SDA Church in Wash DC. This is the church where Richard Fredericks was an associate pastor for a number of years, and where Jack Sequeira was senior pastor.
See your post, #1: Tom, Are You a Seventh Day Adventist or not? 07-02-11 4:36 pm
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … 369#p10369
New Covenant Adventism:
SO I REPEAT: I am a New Covenant Adventist, one that embraces the original pillars of the Three Angels Messages, as well as the Advent Mission to prepare the church for the Tribulation and the 2nd Coming, which follows.
The Advent Movement must go forward in the 21st century; not with OC minded members who embrace the IJ and are looking for Sunday Laws to start the Tribulation, but with repentant, NC Adventists, zealous to repent and to proclaim the Gospel in the context of the 4th Angels Message. Adventism must go forward, regardless what the SDA's do or say. Eschatology and Gospel Reform will not wait for them.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom said:
As for NCT; it is full of error and worthless doctrine. It is no solution for the errors of Adventism. It is nothing more than hardcore anti-Sabbatarianism, disguised as new Gospel light.
I believe that to add to the Gospel is as bad as taking away from the Gospel. When Jesus says He fulfilled the Sabbath, the 2nd Covenant is said by Him to have better promises, I believe we should be prepared to see them when they are read. The discontinuity of the 1st and 2nd Covenants means one must look for the tenets of the New Covenant in the New Testament or things in the OT referring to the New Covenant. The kingdom of God is the New Covenant, and things Jesus had to comply to as a Jew under the Old Covenant are not the same. Fulfillment needs to be understood with true discernment, not using hunches. Using Scripture instead of surmising. Can you do that Tom???After all our discussions, I have not seen you do it. I'm still reading and listening. Anti-Sabbatarianism claim by you, shows that your Gospel is polluted. The keeping of the Sabbath does nothing for your salvation. SDAs can not talk about Salvation without mentioning this one work that must be worked inorder for salvation. The name SDA, takes one commandment and makes it superior to any other commandment in the Old Covenant. Even Jesus never did that when asked which is the most important commandment.
Last edited by bob_2 (03-18-12 10:30 pm)
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Tom said: As for NCT; it is full of error and worthless doctrine. It is no solution for the errors of Adventism. It is nothing more than hardcore anti-Sabbatarianism, disguised as new Gospel light.
Bob replied: I believe that to add to the Gospel is as bad as taking away from the Gospel.
Tom said: Agreed. The Sabbath teachings of Christ are part of the Gospel. Such NC teachings are part of the “law of Christ.”
NCT “takes away” Jesus NC Sabbath teachings, even as it “adds” the myth that he “fulfilled” the Sabbath. Thus NCT removes Gospel Truth, and replaces it with Gospel Fraud. This is why it is so awful and worthless.
Bob said: When Jesus says He fulfilled the Sabbath, the 2nd Covenant is said by Him to have better promises, I believe we should be prepared to see them when they are read.
Tom said: STOP, STOP, And STOP. ***
Jesus NEVER claimed that he fulfilled the Sabbath!
There is no such passage in the entire Bible. Nor is there any such doctrine. This point, which is critical to NCT, is pure fiction. (Nor did Jesus speak the quote in Hebrews about “better promises” as you claim).
So bob, you need to stop adding myths to the Gospel Story. It is a great sin to place false doctrine in the mouth of Christ and his apostles.
This is a good example of the gross dishonesty of NCT. This crowd twists the Bible when it suits them, which is often, just like the SDA’s. The very basis for their supposedly great insight into the Sabbath is based on fiction. Jesus NEVER taught such a doctrine. He NEVER claimed to be the fulfillment of the Sabbath, as NCT dishonestly declares.
Bob said: The discontinuity of the 1st and 2nd Covenants means one must look for the tenets of the New Covenant in the New Testament or things in the OT referring to the New Covenant.
Tom said: The OC Sabbath was REFORMED by Christ into the NC Sabbath, or Lord’s Day. The Sabbath doctrine was not fully discontinued in the NC, as NCT teaches, which is why every church meets once a week to this very day.
Jesus teaches a very different, NC Sabbath, for the church, which is very different from the OC Sabbath of the Jews and SDA’s. THIS is the correct 7th day Sabbath for the church. THIS is what the SDA’s should be promoting. But they are acting like the Jews, and thus they promote the same Sabbath error.
Bob said: The kingdom of God is the New Covenant, and things Jesus had to comply to as a Jew under the Old Covenant are not the same.
Tom replied: Before the NC, there was the OC. It was also part of the Kingdom of God. Jesus taught the NC. Not the OC. Which is why he did NOT comply with many OC laws, including and especially the Sabbath.
Jesus taught a very controversial, 7th day, NC Sabbath, one that depended on the Priesthood of all believers as the theological basis for this new doctrine.
Bob said: Fulfillment needs to be understood with true discernment, not using hunches. Using Scripture instead of surmising. Can you do that Tom???
Tom said: Understand that Jesus NEVER claimed to be the fulfillment of the Sabbath. Never. The NT does not teach such a theory.
It is NCT, not Adventist Reform, that is confused and wrong about prophecy, Law and Gospel. This crowd is unable to be honest with the teachings of Christ because they don’t like what Jesus teaches.
The NCT crowd hates the Sabbath and thus they have invented a false theory, based on the fiction that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath and then abolished it. But yet they meet every Sunday, like confused hypocrites that don’t want to follow their own doctrines. Very strange.
Bob said: The keeping of the Sabbath does nothing for your salvation.
Tom said: Agreed. Neither the OC, nor the NC Sabbath, is salvific. I have not said otherwise.
Moreover, I am not promoting Sabbath keeping as traditionally understood. Why? Because the typical view, whether on the 7th or 1st day of the week, is a non-working religious day.
But Jesus does not teach such a non-working Sabbath. The Sunday keepers do, and so too the SDA’s. But they are wrong. The Gospel Sabbath is not a doctrine one “keeps.” Why? Because it is not wrong or sinful to do any kind of work on the active, reformed Sabbath of Christ.
You keep the NC Sabbath by understanding the Gospel; realizing that the law is not what saves anyone.
Those that think it wrong to work on the Sabbath, are operating under law, not by faith in Christ. They do not understand the Gospel or the law, much less the Sabbath teachings of Jesus correctly.
Bob said: SDAs cannot talk about Salvation without mentioning this one work that must be worked in order for salvation.
Tom said: Agreed. But they are wrong. I never said otherwise. The SDA’s have embraced the OC Sabbath when they should have embraced the NC Gospel Sabbath of Christ. They know neither Christ nor the Gospel.
The 7th day Sabbath of Adventist Reform is very different from what the OC minded SDA’s teach. At some point you need to understand this difference.
Bob said: The name SDA, takes one commandment and makes it superior to any other commandment in the Old Covenant.
Tom said: The SDA’s are wrong about the law and the Gospel, as well as the Sabbath, etc. They fail to understand that Jesus gave all believers an EXEMPTION from the law of the 4th Commandment.
The SDA’s teach the OC Sabbath of Moses, which forbids work on the Sabbath, while Jesus teaches a very different and active, 7th day doctrine. Only one is correct for the church.
The SDA’s have not only spurned Jesus’ “Priestly Sabbath Exemption,” they have also embraced the legalistic Sabbath of the Pharisees, the enemies of Christ. This is very wrong and foolish.
Today, the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath of Christ is a shocking concept for SDA’s. They have never heard about such a doctrine, nor do they understand the Gospel or the Two Covenants correctly. They are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Hos. 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Moreover, this active, 7th day Sabbath of Christ, will also shock every other denomination as well, condemning them all as having embraced a very wrong view of the law and the Gospel as well as the teachings of Christ.
This NEW DOCTRINE will give all a second chance to better understand the Gospel, which alone is salvific.
When the Gospel is properly understood, so too the Gospel Sabbath. Ready or not, there is new light shining into the Advent Community. Too bad so many will run from the light, preferring darkness.
John 3:19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
John 3:21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
Tom Norris, for the “new light” of the Gospel Sabbath
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Tom wrote:
Bob said: When Jesus says He fulfilled the Sabbath, the 2nd Covenant is said by Him to have better promises, I believe we should be prepared to see them when they are read.
Tom said: STOP, STOP, And STOP. ***
Jesus NEVER claimed that he fulfilled the Sabbath!
Bob is correct. It is you, who like all SDAs that have a veil covering their eyes, that cannot render correctly. Matt 5: 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is fulfilled. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
These verses condemn your thoughts either way you want to believe. If you cannot see that the Sabbath along with all the remainder of the law has been fulfilled then you have to believe that the law is still binding and not one small letter nor the least stroke of a pen has been changed. Since you have to believe the latter because you still believe there is an existing Sabbath then you are disregarding Jesus words by adding and taking away.
In that latter scenario you have proceeded to remove the meat of the Sabbath law. You tell us that we can work on the Sabbath and do our own pleasure. In fact what you are telling us is that Jesus is nothing but a liar. According to you the law which includes the Sabbath is still binding, but the jots and pen strokes have blotted out the full meaning of the institution.
Tom, I hate to break the news to you, but you are one sick puppy. You and SDAs are spreading falsehoods that have ruined the bliss of being a New Covenant Christian by adding works to the plan of salvation experience, too bad
Last edited by bshields (03-21-12 10:43 am)
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Tom and BShields:
Remember this passage that speaks to fulfillment:
Luke 24: 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
The Sabbath wasn't separate as some claim. Just read Leviticus 23, makes the Sabbath more "ceremonial" than "moral".
Lev 23:1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘These are my appointed festivals, the appointed festivals of the LORD, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies.
The Sabbath3 “‘There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a sabbath to the LORD.
The first sacred assembly of the list of festivals was none other than the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment. When all the Old Covenant ended, it was part of the fulfillment Col 2:16,17 talk about. We should all pray for the experience the disciples experienced:
Luke 24: 45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
That is my prayer for us all.
Last edited by bob_2 (03-21-12 10:43 am)
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Bob pasted:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
I don't quite understand what this verse has to do with the law being fulfilled. This verse is telling us that what is written in the Old Testament about Messiah coming is and must be fulfilled by Jesus. This, of course, included His death and resurrection.
On the other hand Matt 5 deals directly with the Old Covenant. The OC would remain until all was fulfilled by Him. He verifies in Luke 24 that He is the one that must fulfill the OC promise. Tom has yet to deal with Matt 5:17-20. When he is able to see that Jesus is the fulfillment of the OC then he will fully understand grace and faith without the works of the law.
Col 2 is a mighty chapter in clearing up the minds of those who are still under the shadowy law. The problem is that the false prophet speaks louder to SDAs than scripture. satan has had his way with them. Thank God for the power of the Holy Spirit when we give our lives to Jesus.
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bshields said:
I don't quite understand what this verse has to do with the law being fulfilled. This verse is telling us that what is written in the Old Testament about Messiah coming is and must be fulfilled by Jesus. This, of course, included His death and resurrection.
Is He not saying to His disciples, before He ascends, that all that has to be fulfilled has been fulfilled? SDAs point to a portion of the passage you point to, to say the earth has to end before one jot or tittle is erased. Fulfillment/Accomplishment is the key word.
Matt 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
and
Luke 24: 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Everything was accomplished as He states, that is the point. The end of the earth does not have to come for all to be fulfilled or completed.
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