The Tribulation

tom_norris · 02-26-10 3:14 pm

Tom Norris has urged this Gospel minded person, who is a former SDA pastor, to consider Adventist Reform. The major topic is focused on the Tribulation, which Bob claims has already started.

Bob said: Looks like the same issues as before. I've moved on.

Tom said: How does a Christian move on from the Gospel? The Christian Faith is all about the Gospel, which includes eschatology.

Besides, there has always been Two Gospels clashing within the church, even as there were two different positions of the Sabbath in competition all during the ministry of Christ and beyond.

So the present confused situation in the church is normative, even as there is still another great reformation waiting to emerge from the blindness and incompetence of organized religion. There is a clear cycle and pattern that is only repeated over time.

The wold is entering into another period of Gospel Reform.

The world is entering another period of apocalyptic fervor, fear, and excitement.

Today, in the 21st century, there is no excuse not to fully understand the Gospel Story and church history. Knowledge has been so greatly increased that no one need lack the necessary information to understand the Word or the teachings of the NT.

What the SDAs referred to as the 4th Angels Message has been discovered and understood for any that care. This means that there is a correct Gospel path emerging for those called by the true Spirit, and for those that care about prophecy and serious eschatology.

The development of the 4th Angels Message, as a theological paradigm, is a dramatic game changer that will overturn the status quo. Those in the Adventist Community should be the first to appreciate such Reform.

Bob said: I'm resting in Christ and His love awaiting His return and only longing to witness and tell others of His love.

Tom said: Are you sure this is the proper time in history to be resting? The hour of Gospel Reform is at hand, the Tribulation is near, but those who claim to follow Jesus have fallen asleep. They are resting at the wrong time.

Matt. 26:45 Then He came to the disciples and said to them, Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.

I think the resting period for all those that claim to follow the Gospel is over. Everyone has rested enough. There is Gospel action taking place. Prophecy is fulfilling; danger, violence, and blood are in the air.

Mark 14:41 And He came the third time, and said to them, Are you still sleeping and resting? It is enough; the hour has come; behold, the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.

Tom continued: The church today needs far more than rest and some talk about love. In fact, Jesus has made it clear in his Message to the Laodiceans that they have everything wrong and that the need to REPENT and reform.

So the message from heaven to the last church is not one of rest or love, but repentance and Gospel reform.

Make a note brother: It is time for all those that are resting to WAKE UP and get serious about the Gospel and eschatology.

The Great Time of Trouble is certainly on the way, and so too the Judgment Day.

Rev. 3:3 Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.

The entire Laodicean Church has gone to sleep. But it is time to Wake Up all these resting souls. Too bad that many will wake up only enough to be locked out of the kingdom of God.

Matt. 25:5 Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.

You know the story. For many it was too late. Even though they finally woke up and figured it all out, they failed to understand the Gospel in time.

Matt. 25:11 Later the other virgins also came, saying, Lord, lord, open up for us.

Matt. 25:12 But he answered, Truly I say to you, I do not know you.

Matt. 25:13 Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

Bob said: I've been out of the SDA church for 25 years now, believe it or not.

Tom said: So too have I. I would not waste my time in an SDA church, unless it was for a wedding or funeral or such.

The SDAs have the wrong Gospel and the wrong Sabbath, and a long list of additional errors and false doctrines.

The real problem however, is that everyone else has their own long list of errors and myth. There is not a church or denomination in the world that has the correct Gospel, Sabbath, or eschatology. NONE.

So dont think when I promote Adventist Reform that it means anything other than an Adventist Revolution. It means a paradigm shift from the failed 3rd Angels Message to the 4th and final level of Adventist eschatology.

It is time for a new model of Adventism to emerge. One without tithing, or this nonsense about the IJ.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … rsonal.htm

More than that, I bash the SDAs on a regular basis, even as I have exposed their massive fraud in the White Estate for all to see.

In fact, I have enough evidence against the White Estate that at some point they are going to receive a class action lawsuit for the crime of publishing fraud if they do not confess and repent. Most everything they teach about Ellen White is manipulated and historically false.

So I have no love for these crooks, nor are they going to get away with what they have done.

The SDAs have gone so corrupt that there is little doubt that a new organization must emerge from the Three Angels Messages. The sooner the better.

Dr. Ford led the way, 30 years ago. Who has followed through with his reforms? Fredericks attempt at Adventist Reform was a disaster, as well as a great waste of time. Is that the best the Advent Movement could do? I hope not.

The time has come to push the confused and disenchanted Advent Movement forward. The time has come for a serious advance within the Adventist Apocalyptic, which will complete the Protestant Reformation.

Now that the web is here, such a task is made easier. Thus the truth about the Gospel cannot be hidden, even as the double-talking Pharisees will all be exposed as frauds for all to see.

I say those with the knowledge of these things have a responsibility to act, not sit around and contribute to the confusing situation.

When Gospel truth is injected into the religious market place, the very novelty and dramatic difference from all other views will become quickly obvious. This is what happened with Jesus ministry, and so too with Peter and Paul, as well as with Luther and on to the founders of the Methodists and Adventists, etc.

All these paradigm shifts were driven by an improved and very different view of the Gospel from the status quo. And so too will the last great paradigm shift for the Laodicean church also fall into this same pattern.

The genuine Gospel, with its 7th day, working, Sabbath will shock, embarrass, and condemn every church in the land, -starting with the SDAs.

Bob said: There is salvation outside SDAism.

Tom said: I hope so, because there is no salvation inside the SDA church. They have a false and worthless Gospel and a very wrong doctrine of the Sabbath. We all know this. But guess what? EVERY church out there is also full of false doctrine and myth. EVERY church also has a distorted Gospel and a false Sabbath.

This is why the preaching of the correct Gospel, which must be accompanied with the correct Gospel Sabbath, will stun and condemn every church community, starting with the SDAs. They are in for a great shock.

Bob said: There is no reform of SDAism. There is a remnant in SDAism as there is with all churches and denominations. These are those who love Jesus, stay in fellowship with Him and keep His commandments.

Tom said: There should be no doubt that Adventists and the SDAs, like those that went before them, have made some important contributions to theology. It would be foolish to ignore whatever truths have been discovered, or to pretend that we are now free to make up our path as we see fit.

The Three Angels Messages is the correct path for the Laodicean church. The SDA were correct to say that the 7th day will play a role in the final Gospel events. Too bad that they got it so wrong.

Those that choose to ignore, or misinterpret the Adventist Apocalyptic, do so at their own Eternal risk. It is not something to be ignored.

However, if the SDAs are too far gone to be reformed, so be it. This may very well be a correct observation, and I do not deny this very real possibility.

If true, then another movement will emerge, first out of Adventism, to push forward the final Gospel Reforms that will complete the Protestant Reformation.

Such a new Gospel message, from a new type of organization, will represent the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18, even if the word SDA is nowhere around.

The final proclamation of the Gospel, which includes the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath, will be very different from what the SDAs and all others teach. Just like the Gospel makes no sense without the context of Judaism, so too, without the SDAs, the Gentiles could not fully grasp the final Gospel message, which includes the Reformed Sabbath of Jesus.

Bob said: I'm afraid that the constant bickering, arguing and debating 'can' only embitter the soul as it takes the focus away from Him abiding in us and us in Him.

Tom said: Ha! If the apostles held this view, the church would have gone extinct in the 1st century. And the Reformation could also never have taken place.

The NT clearly shows that the apostles did not avoid either bickering or full-blown debates; much less imprisonment and persecution, and neither did Jesus.

In fact, Paul is a good model for all that claim to preach the Gospel. He did not shrink back from the necessary debate that always accompanies the preaching of the Gospel. And of course Jesus ministry was full of theological debate with the religious leaders of his day.

Those that have a true Gospel Spirit, will not be fearful of public debate about the Gospel. Nor will they let the critics who refuse to believe, turn them bitter.

Those with the appropriate gifts have a duty to preach the genuine Gospel as well as the real Pre-Advent Judgment, which is a call for every church and denomination in Laodicea to repentant of their false doctrines, and prepare for the Time of Trouble and the Judgment Day.

Those who really have Jesus abiding in them will understand the Laodicean Message and the Gospel and take Spirit led action.

Bob said: I guess within Adventism it is necessary to wrangle over doctrine to help some find the true gospel.

Tom said: Ha! Every church in the land needs to study and debate the Gospel!

Why? Because there is no church that has a correct Gospel or Sabbath. None understand theology or church history correctly, which is why they are all condemned by the LM as full of error, sin, and great blindness.

Thus Gospel agitation, debate, and Reform is needed in EVERY church in the land, and the SDAs are a good place to start because they have the most sophisticated eschatology, which includes the correct fact that only the 7th day can be the Sabbath of the church.

But of course they still have the doctrine of the Sabbath wrong because they dont understand the Gospel correctly. And so too every church in the land. NONE have correct theology or eschatology.

Bob said: I have served my time brother in these disputes and doctrinal matters. I don't want to get entangled again so I'll avoid them at this time with your blessing.

Tom said: Unless you are an old man, ready to die, you get no excuse from serving as you think. Those who claim to follow Jesus, and have tasted the gifts of the Gospel, do not get a pass from Jesus, at the prime of their life. This is not what the NT teaches.

Moreover, anyone that preaches the Gospel must be deeply involved in the resulting debates and uproar that it causes. There can be no avoiding doctrinal disputes for those that push truth forward. It is part of Gospel Reform.

Anything we have done in our earlier lives must be viewed as prologue and preparation for greater things. When we were young, we did not know the Gospel fully, much less the NC Sabbath.

But we are no longer young or naïve.

Bob said: It's going to get really bad from here on out imho. I believe we have entered into the beginning of the tribulation as the shaking as begun in the financial world.

Tom said: While the Tribulation is near, many misunderstand when and how it will start.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1132526979

First off, there must be peace and safety declared.

1Th. 5:1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you

1Th. 5:2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

1Th. 5:3 While they are saying, Peace and safety! then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

So the immanent sign of the end cannot be during a period of strife, war, or financial collapse. It is the opposite.

I remember making the same point to you about Y2K. Panic is very different from peace. Safety from terrorism today has hardly been achieved or declared, but that day will come. Or appear to have come. THEN the Time of Trouble will surprise all those not paying attention to the Word.

It is a great mistake to think that the Tribulation has started. It has not. Read Rev 18 and understand that it starts with a massive, surprise attack on the West. Thus it is terrorism from those that hate the Jews and the Gospel Story that shuts down the power grid and a number of key ports. The West will be surprised by these coordinated attacks on their big cities that will be burned with fire and deliberately infected with plague.

THIS is the beginning of the great Tribulation, even as it is the end of capitalism and the end of the consumer economy, including an immediate stop of world trade. Panic will grip the County and the world because the terrorists have struck a fatal blow.

Rev. 18:2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.

Rev. 18:3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.

Rev. 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

Rev. 18:5 for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

Rev. 18:6 Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her.

Rev. 18:7 To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning.

Rev. 18:8 For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.

Rev. 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning,

Rev. 18:10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.

Rev. 18:11 And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more

Notice how quickly all this takes place. The Western Empire, meaning the US and her allies, are Babylon. They will be attacked and ruined very quickly. And no one will even come to help.

All will stay back, not daring to get contaminated themselves (from plague and radiation poisoning.)

Rev. 18:17 for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste! And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance,

This means the cruise and merchant ships refuse to return to their ports in the US. Why? Because a nuke has gone off, and the ports have been ruined, destroyed, and contaminated. They cannot return.

Rev. 18:18 and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city?

Rev. 18:19 And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!

The US will be struck by a fatal attack. When you see the smoke rising from one major city after another, and hear about the devastation that has erupted all over America, at strategic points, THEN you can know that the Tribulation has started.

Note only will the ports be destroyed, but so too much of the power grid. THEN you will see an economic disaster like no other. Millions will starve; millions more will die from disease, etc.

The government is planning for this event, because they know it is coming. But it will be worse than they ever imagined, even as there will always be those ready to take the reigns of power and try to continue on.

Rev. 18:21 Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.

Rev. 18:22 And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer;

Rev. 18:23 and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery.

So Bob, when you see the power grid go down because of the great violence from WMDs; THEN all will know that the Great Time of Trouble has begun.

When you see the reports about the great violence, smoke, and devastation at the major ports cities, THEN you know the Tribulation has begun. But then it will be too late for those not prepared; they will not be able to escape.

Those that are paying attention to Gospel eschatology will understand before hand, and thus they will not only escape the initial wave of destruction, but will also secure Eternal Life.

Luke 21:34 Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap;

Luke 21:35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth.

Luke 21:36 But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.

Mark 13:19 For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.

Mark 13:20 Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Mark 13:21 And then if anyone says to you, Behold, here is the Christ; or, Behold, He is there; do not believe him;

Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Mark 13:23 But take heed; behold, I have told you everything in advance.

Experts say that within the next 20 years the Terrorists will win. Technology will allow them access to the weapons they need to destroy America, and the world economy in the process. They will drag the world into another dark age, which will end with the Second Coming.

So it is the enemies of the Jews and the Gospel Story that will start the Time of Trouble. It will not be with shoe bombs or airplanes, but with a wave of briefcase nukes that will ruin the County. THIS is the start of the Tribulation. 9/11 is a small undertaking compared to what is really being planned.

But until this horrific, future event happens, there is no tribulation. Before this happens, the world economy will recover and prosper, even as peace will be declared in the Middle East. Thus, peace in Jerusalem is the final sign of the coming Tribulation.

We are not there as yet. But that day will come. And so too what will follow.

Bob said: I believe it is time to gather with others who want to pray above all things and sing and worship the Father and the Son.

Tom said: It is time to preach the Gospel correctly, as well as the Gospel Sabbath and the Judgment, which is the Second Coming. It is also time for the correct preaching of the Tribulation, as well as the necessary action to prepare for it.

Which means it is also time for those that embrace the genuine Gospel to form independent companies that will stand up to the double-talking and blind religious leaders and separate from them.

No one is ready for the Tribulation, which is so close. Not any denomination or person. So I agree that it is also time to think about how to protect the church, meaning the believers, from what is about to happen. But only in a context that can be clearly supported by the Word.

Preparing for the Tribulation is no small undertaking as new villages and self-sustaining towns will have to be designed and built. There is a lot of work involved in preparing for what is to come. It is a serious situation that has not been sufficiently understood or addressed.

Bob said: I think the time has come to gather into companies where we can nurture and encourage one another in the Lord. The coming of the Lord is drawing near and God's people need to be humbling themselves before Him and seeking unity in prayer.

Tom said: The time has come to promote correct Gospel eschatology to those in the Laodicean church.

This will result in the formation of many new companies, as people understand that their leaders have been deceiving and defrauding them all these years.

The time has come for a Gospel Reformation to stun and condemn organized religion, even as the correct Gospel divides the church between those that follow a false Christ and those that dont.

The true Gospel, along with the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ, is to be proclaimed to all. And so too is the warning about the Judgment and the Time of Trouble.

The time for religious double-talk and legions of false doctrines is past. It is time for a paradigm shift from what is false and worthless to that will deliver Eternal Life.

Do not underestimate the power of the Gospel to overturn the status quo and do its intended work.

In conclusion,

1. There is great eschatological truth within the Adventist Apocalyptic that must be understood and embraced.

2. The Tribulation has not, not, not, started and it is theologically irresponsible to take such a view.

Those that say otherwise only diminish the credibility of the genuine doctrine, even as it mocks the clear teaching of the NT about the Time of Trouble.

3. Those preachers and teachers of the Gospels that claim to correctly follow Christ must do so.

Jesus was a Gospel Reformer, Sabbath Reformer, and Health Reformer. He debated, argued, and publicly pushed his Gospel agenda. So too those that follow him.

Those Laodiceans that are called to preach the Gospel, and have been given the gifts to understand the Word, have a duty and responsibility to do so.

There is much work to do before the Tribulation arrives.

There is a great reformation and paradigm shift in the church that must occur before the Tribulation can begin. It is time to start this final process of Gospel Reform.

Matt. 11:15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Last edited by tom_norris (03-02-10 5:01 pm)

bob_2 · 02-26-10 3:53 pm

Tom, these sort of statements of yours, I believe are what numb people toward you, that are conservative and those that feel reform or progress is needed.

Tom said: The time has come to promote correct Gospel eschatology to those in the Laodicean church.

This will result in the formation of many new companies, as people understand that their leaders have been deceiving and defrauding them all these years.

I think people tune out. What are you some sort of self-proclaimed prophet???

tom_norris · 02-27-10 12:45 pm

Bob 2 said: Tom, these sort of statements of yours, I believe are what numb people toward you that are conservative, and those that feel reform or progress is needed.

Tom said: Many become numb and fearful at the thought of having to defend their confused doctrines, as well they should.

Many turn away from this Gospel discussion because they do not want to search for truth. Either because they don’t care, or because they think they have all the answers already.

Thus every church in the land has chosen to ignore the Laodicean Message and pretend it does not apply to them. It must be the other church that has it wrong? So many listen to their false leaders and embrace a worthless and wrong Gospel.

The NT teaches that we are to “turn away” from any that hinder the study or preaching of the Gospel, not from those promoting the Gospel and searching for truth. All are required to face up to the critics and deal honestly with the Gospel issues.

Rom. 16:17 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.

1Pet. 3:15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

The blind guides that are paid to preach and teach the Gospel are the first to turn away and “tune out.” Why? Because they are guilty as charged by the LM, (which is the real Pre-Advent Judgment for every church and denomination). They cannot defend their confused and worthless Gospel, and neither can those that so foolishly follow these hired hands.

So these “unbelieving liars” run from the Gospel and hide. This is what all the SDA leaders have done. What worthless and condemned cowards they are! They will find themselves in very bad company at the end.

Rev. 21:8 “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Bob 2 said: I think people tune out. What are you some sort of self-proclaimed prophet???

Tom said: It hardly takes a prophet to understand the Gospel today. I would much rather be a scholar, with the gift of teaching the Gospel, than have the gift of prophecy.

Those that want to follow their foolish and dishonest leaders, or their own personal confusion, may do so, but they need to understand they have embraced doctrinal fraud and forfeited Eternal Life.

There are not many Gospels, only one.

Only the genuine Gospel can deliver Eternal Life. That is why it is so important to cut through the religious chaos, myth, and dishonesty that are featured in every denomination.

It is time for the Genuine Gospel to be understood by the Laodicean church. It is time to stop the religious double-talk and drop all the pretensions and myths that characterize religion today.

Those that understand the Gospel, which are very few, have an obligation and duty to rebuke those that get it wrong and exhort all to follow truth. This is what we have been doing, on the record, for all to see. If this makes people, especially SDA’s uncomfortable, then good!

The Gospel is not a smooth message, and neither is the Time of Trouble that is also associated with it.

So there are no plans by Tom Norris to stop promoting the genuine Gospel that is also accompanied by the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath. Those that are honest of heart will study, understand, and find the Gospel, even as many more will never comprehend.

2Tim. 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

2Tim. 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

Today, the church, meaning every denomination, has gone dark, taken over by false teachers that have misrepresented the Gospel Story. Thus the teachings of Jesus and the apostles have been so abused and scrambled as to make no sense, much less deliver Eternal Life.

Ezek. 12:2 “Son of man, you live in the midst of the rebellious house, who have eyes to see but do not see, ears to hear but do not hear; for they are a rebellious house.

This is a serious situation that needs a real solution, even another Protestant Reformation. This is the point of this discussion.

Tom Norris for Gospel Reform

bob_2 · 02-27-10 12:53 pm

Tom, I think you are wrong, because of your unChristian attitude and your inability to put your thoughts succinctly into one paragraph. I think you may be in love with your own voice, and the track you are on against the SDAs. Rather than trying to improve you are tearing down. ATomorrow will certainly not be listened to with the attitude you show.

bob_2 · 02-27-10 1:52 pm

Also, if your view is correct, I believe that others will be teaching it, (no prove give). This is your own concoction, then I want nothing to do with it. NCT has many scholars that have studied it out, and stay Solo Scriptura, not afraid to speak the truth because an EGW saw in vision a "halo" around the 4th Commandment.

Dexter · 02-27-10 3:27 pm

Bob_2 said: Tom, I think you are wrong, because of your unChristian attitude and your inability to put your thoughts succinctly into one paragraph.

I say: This is too funny. Those incapable of honest handling of the Word of God and exposed as liars and wolves always have a hard time accepting the “straight testimony” against their corrupt position. This is not new, so too did their “spiritual” forefathers the Pharisee and “experts of the Law” had a difficult time relating to Christ’s unrelenting “unchristian attitude” (for so they call it) against their spiritual darkness and misleading doctrinal confusion. They too, would have wished Christ would put His condemning “thoughts succinctly into one paragraph.” But Christ knew better!

Matt. 23:29 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.

Matt. 23:30 And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'

Matt. 23:31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.

Matt. 23:32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

Matt. 23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Matt. 23:34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

Thus did the Lord establish the method of how to deal with those professing themselves to be “teachers” and claiming to understand the Word of God. Especially is this true in an age of such spiritual lethargy and confusion; an age in dire need of Gospel reform and spiritual awakening.

Such sharp rebukes are the only thing capable of awakening the lulled spiritual sensibilities of those claiming to be spiritual guides. It alone will shock and provoke the paralyzed spiritual reasoning of those trusting in their self-deceived spirituality.

Thus did the "True Witness" to the Laodiceans have no "spiritually soft" and "christian" (according to their reasoning) message for the church in our age. This message is sure to divide and cause a "rift" in the Church, even as Christ himself said it would.

Matt. 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Matt. 10:35 For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -

Matt. 10:36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

I suggest instead of resisting the testimony, you take heed and find yourself on the right side of the divide?

Bob_2 said: I think you may be in love with your own voice, and the track you are on against the SDAs. Rather than trying to improve you are tearing down. ATomorrow will certainly not be listened to with the attitude you show.

I say: I suggest you do some spiritual inventory and not be quick to judge the outcome of Tom’s testimony or the ministry of his spiritual gift.

Moreover, while those who are spiritual descendants of those that persecuted Christ would like to believe these Reform Catalysts are “in love” with their own voice, others are paying attention and being benefited from the gifts of the spirit. You would do well to stop grumbling and ponder these things.

Last edited by Dexter (02-27-10 8:20 pm)

tom_norris · 02-27-10 8:27 pm

Bob 2 said: Dexter or Tom, since you, Tom, often talk of more than one person getting your Reformed Sabbath, give me the links to those individuals' presentation like you are giving.

Never seen it before.

Yet NCT, though new, or recent, is replete with scholars agreeing with it.

Tom said: Like I said, the truth about the Gospel, and the Gospel Sabbath, are shocking and new for everyone in Laodicea. Especially for the arrogant SDA’s that thought they had the 7th day Sabbath all figured out. But like the Jews, they have most everything wrong, even the Sabbath.

All will be amazed at the genuine Gospel, with its so very different and unexpected Sabbath.

Just like in the ministry of Christ, Jesus Gospel teaching, which included the Reformed Sabbath, was dramatic and amazing. They had “never seen anything like it before!” And that is what made it amazing. Not even his parents saw this new Sabbath “concoction” coming.

Mark 1:22 They were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority!

Luke 2:33 And His father and mother were amazed at the things, which were being said about Him.

Luke 2:47 And all who heard Him were amazed at His understanding and His answers.

Luke 4:32 and they were amazed at His teaching, for His message was with authority.

The Gospel, as well as the Gospel Sabbath under discussion, is based on the teaching and behavior of Jesus as recorded in the NT. Period! This is the source of both the Gospel and the NC Sabbath for the church.

Those that fight this point, for whatever reason, from whatever tradition, are repudiating the Gospel and the clear teachings of Christ. There is only one correct doctrine of the GOSPEL and every church in Laodicea has it WRONG. And the Sabbath proves this point!

Which is why the LM says all are wrong about how they view the NT and the teaching of Jesus.

Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.

Because all have it wrong, all will say: “We have never heard of this new Gospel and new Sabbath.” “What authority has authorized this?” “How can this be?”

The only reason the Gospel Sabbath seems so strange and impossible, is because the traditions of the church have been so wrong for so long. The church has been wrong about the Gospel and the Sabbath for almost 2000 years. Such deep-seated errors are not easily or quickly changed.

The fact of the matter is that the religious leaders have not been teaching or preaching the Gospel honestly or correctly. The confused and wrong Sabbath doctrines, which are embraced by ALL churches, underscores and proves this point.

Thus the emergence of the correct Sabbath will put them all to shame. Proving that the LM applies to all. None are exempt, not even the SDA’s.

A false Gospel accompanies a wrong Sabbath, even as the true Gospel will be escorted by the NC Sabbath as articulated by Christ. So be careful which Sabbath you embrace.

Today, because things are so bad in the church, a correct reading of the NT becomes shocking and scandalous; incomprehensible to those listening. They judge things by their traditions instead of the teaching of the NT.

You ask for links to those scholars and theologians that support the Gospel Sabbath?

I would first direct you to the NT; Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They have recorded the Sabbath teachings of Jesus for the church. When you master these authors, I will give you some more references.

Bob 2 said: Also, if your view is correct, I believe that others will be teaching it, (no proof given).

Tom said: Dr. Ford has been trying to explain the Gospel and NC Sabbath to the SDA’s for many years. He still believes in the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath. He is a world class, Protestant theologian, as well as the greatest theologian the SDA church ever produced.

However, we are not to follow Dr. Ford or Tom Norris, or anyone other than Christ and the apostles.

Jesus is the most amazing, authoritative, honest, and pre-eminent theologian of the church. He has much to say about the NC Sabbath, that he revised specifically for the new paradigm of the Priesthood of all believers.

Those today that follow the Gospel teachings of Jesus, will also understand and embrace his “easy” and active, 7th day Gospel Sabbath. They will not let themselves become confused on this point, or any other.

Bob 2 said: This is your own concoction, then I want nothing to do with it.

Tom said: Ha! You flatter me. Am I an apostle? Did I write any of the NT? What planet do you come from? And how long will you be staying?

The four Gospels contain Jesus teaching about the Sabbath. THIS is the source for this Sabbath “concoction” that is designed to overturn the status quo and divide the religious community.

Don’t shoot the messenger. Blame Jesus! He is the one that started all this Sabbath debate and trouble. It is his Sabbath, not mine.

Did you know that Jesus would purposefully enter into a synagogue on the Sabbath, and deliberately perform what was prohibited on that day? He did this often, and it divided the community and stirred up the leaders against him.

Just imagine what it would have been like to watch this public showdown between the Old and New Covenants. Watch as Jesus uses the Sabbath to explain God and the Gospel. The leaders knew what he was going to do, and so too did he know how they would react. This is Gospel drama that all should pray to understand.

Jesus is so smart that he asks them a question; in front of all, that they can’t or won’t answer.

Their lack of a coherent reply means they are never going to repent and accept his Gospel. Which makes Jesus “angry.”

So he defies the religious leaders and breaks the Sabbath. In front of all. On purpose.

The people of course were thrilled and glad; Jesus was a hero; but the leaders were embarrassed and humiliated. They quickly retreated from their own house of worship, leaving Jesus, the great Gospel teacher, alone with the people.

Mark 3:1 He entered again into a synagogue; and a man was there whose hand was withered.

Mark 3:2 They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him.

Mark 3:3 He said to the man with the withered hand, “Get up and come forward!”

Mark 3:4 And He said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to kill?” But they kept silent.

Mark 3:5 After looking around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored.

Mark 3:6 The Pharisees went out and immediately began conspiring with the Herodians against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath was so important, and so different, that he used it as a prop for the Gospel. Over and over, in all four Gospels, Jesus teaches the doctrine of the NC Sabbath. He is the author of this very important doctrine that is a litmus test to how we view the Gospel and the authority of Christ.

Bob 2 said: NCT has many scholars that have studied it out, and stay Solo Scriptura, not afraid to speak the truth because an EGW saw in vision a "halo" around the 4th Commandment.

Tom said: All the scholars refuted Jesus Gospel, even as they became enraged at his Gospel Sabbath. So I think there is a good lesson here, don’t you?

When it comes to a paradigm shift, few are prepared. Few can see what is ahead. There is a reason why Jesus had few scholars around him.

As for the SDA’s claim that the 7th day is the only correct day for the church. They are correct. They are also correct to teach that the Sabbath will be a part of the final Gospel message, of Rev 18.

They are not correct about the Gospel or the doctrine of the Sabbath, or the Judgment, or many other things. But without them, the church would not have been able to discover and embrace the genuine NT Sabbath.

Heb. 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath doctrine for the people of God.

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath

Last edited by tom_norris (02-28-10 12:01 pm)

bob_2 · 02-27-10 8:56 pm

Not really, but we will just have to agree to disagree. I agree that he broke the Sabbath as the leaders had structured its keeping, but he did not break it as expected by OC people obligated to keep the OC. The new interpretation, didn't kick in until the NC became effective at his death.

tom_norris · 02-28-10 1:23 pm

Bob 2 said: We will just have to agree to disagree.

Tom said: Ha! Disagree about what? There is no question that there is a Sabbath for the church, and that billions of Christians have embraced some form of Sabbath doctrine, and still do to this very day.

Your basic point that there is no Sabbath for the church is so absurd, and against the evidence, that it has never been embraced by any church or denomination!

So you have a major disagreement with the NT teachings of Jesus, as well as with the long history and practice of the church, not with Tom Norris.

Understand that you are repudiating a fundamental doctrine of the church, and thus you have placed yourself outside the church, even as you have invented your own worthless and pretend version of Jesus.

Are you sure this is where you want to be when you die? Do you really want to invent your own, independent and very bazaar view of the Gospel? I think you are on a suicide mission, but each to their own.

Bob 2 said: I agree that he broke the Sabbath as the leaders had structured its keeping, but he did not break it as expected by OC people obligated to keep the OC.

Tom said: Jesus never really broke the Sabbath at all. The Jewish leaders were obviously wrong about that point, but the people were unsure, divided, and confused. They were not sure who was correct because they had all been taught false things about God and the Sabbath and thus the debate was on for all to see!

John 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.

John 9:15 Then the Pharisees also were asking him again how he received his sight. And he said to them, “He applied clay to my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”

John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.

Understand that the preaching of the Gospel, along with the Gospel Sabbath, causes great debate and DIVISION in the church. It is meant to separate those that are true of heart from all others.

2Cor. 6:17 “Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE,” says the Lord.
“AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN;
And I will welcome you.

The Gospel and the Reformed Sabbath of Jesus have been forever joined together. Let no one dare presume to separate what God has joined.

Mark 10:9 “What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

Remove the Sabbath doctrine, and the very strategy of heaven will become moot. Without the Sabbath, the Gospel Story will not function properly, nor will the eschatological division be able to take place at the end of time.

Luke 12:51 “Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;

John 7:43 So a division occurred in the crowd because of Him.

John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.”

But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.

John 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.

The Gospel Sabbath caused great debate and division during the ministry of Christ and so it will again at the end of time. Thus the SDA’s discovered a very correct eschatological point about the Sabbath. Too bad they bungled the Gospel and the 3rd Angels Message. Sad.

But church history moves on. Others will pick up where the SDA’s have left off and move forward within the Adventist Apocalyptic.

Bob 2 said: The new Sabbath interpretation didn't kick in until the NC became effective at his death.

Tom said: Jesus Reformed Sabbath teachings were meant to be embraced immediately by the Jews. This doctrine was a featured part of his public ministry.

Many did indeed embrace his teachings, which infuriated the leaders. This is why they plotted in secret to kill him. Jesus, and his new Sabbath, were very popular.

So the NC Sabbath “kicked in” the moment it was taught by Jesus. It was not a delayed teaching, like the point about the Gentiles coming into the church, but one that required an immediate response from the leaders and the people. This is why there was so much debate and division about the NC Sabbath with the OC minded Jews. Jesus was CONFRONTING them with a new and very different Sabbath.

Today, those that reject or marginalize the 7th day Gospel Sabbath, as taught by Christ, are removing themselves from the Kingdom of God. They are embracing the errors of those that plotted to kill Jesus, and taking a stand against heaven. Very sad.

Let all beware of rejecting the Gospel Sabbath. Such an error will be fatal.

Heb. 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Tom Norris for Sabbath Reform in the Laodicean Church

bob_2 · 02-28-10 2:35 pm

Tom, who else agrees with your position. This is the third time asking. For an SDA to claim the majority clings to a Sabbath of some kind, is not exactly the way a remnant church argues their points, is it? Requiring of people something that is not Biblical or required of God can be fatal also. Check your sources, and get back to me. OH, yeah, shorten it to "succinctly" if possible. Thanks

Last edited by bob_2 (02-28-10 3:01 pm)

bob_2 · 02-28-10 2:41 pm

The way Christ kept the Sabbath and worshiped at the temple is no where close to the NC ways. To say so ruins your credibility. Christ sacrificed at the temple with His family, but when He said it is finished, IT WAS FINISHED. Yes the leaders had added how far you could walk on Sabbath, whether healing on Sabbath was work, but Christ's corrections were for the OC way of Sabbath keeping. All the blood and sacrifice of animals, done away with. If His appointed apostle said the Sabbath rest is found in Christ Himself, who are you to counter and cling to the Gospels and not see the whole picture. Fatal, maybe not, we are not to argue about holy days, but to be convinced in our own minds, under the NC. Finally, name a few scholars that see it your way, or is this SoloNorristura.?

Last edited by bob_2 (02-28-10 2:43 pm)

bob_2 · 02-28-10 2:56 pm

Help me with your Fourth Angel, where in Rev 18:1-3 does it talk of the Sabbath issue. It talks maybe of countries and governments mingling with the views of the Beast. Right??The Bible in other places than Rev and the Gospels clarify the Sabbath question, that you ignore. Elaine and I have mentioned before how the SDA church, and probably you, have ignored Acts to Jude, thus missing out on the Truth, instead of making up your own.

There are plenty of churches that worship on Sunday or other days, that don't do so because the "Beast" does. If you ask them the reason, you will find they are very anti Roman Catholic, I assume you claim that is the Beast, and keep their day of worship for their own concocted idea. There is no command in the NT/NC to make one day more holy than another, but to assembly together, that would mean some sort of agreement of the meeting time, but that is not breaking a commandment under the NC. Tom, you are still very much a Jew in your views, maybe not even SDA, from what I can see.

Last edited by bob_2 (02-28-10 3:00 pm)

Dexter · 03-02-10 10:28 am

Bob_2 said: The way Christ kept the Sabbath and worshiped at the temple is no where close to the NC ways.

I say: This is such a remarkable statement volumes can be written against it. Then again, if you really mean to say “…is no where close to the NCT ways” I can see why and agree. NCT, as you describe it, adds nothing but more confusion to this already confused and discordant state of affairs in Christendom today.

I wonder how any of Christ’s disciples would regard such a statement? And what of the Apostles who made it paramount to “contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints”, would they agree? From whence was their “faith” (in doctrine and practice) entrusted, if not from the Church’s leading Apostle – Christ Jesus?

You NCTers claim to understand the NC, but this boast is clearly without reason or grounds.

Since you seem incapable of getting this, let me state it plainly: Christ’s Sabbath reforms IS THE NC WAYS FOR THE CHURCH! Why do you suppose he chose the 12 unto himself and deliberately did things and have them do things hitherto they have never done or seen or understood about Sabbath observance? It was expressly so that they, who were to be his witness and carry forward his Gospel message with its Gospel Sabbath, may have a firsthand and front seat viewing at this new order of Sabbath observance.

Moreover, Christ’s Sabbath reform, while controversial, was not just some wrangling about true Sabbath observance as it was intended under the OC (any messenger or prophet could have been sent to do this), rather they were a purposeful and instructive overhaul of the Sabbath, suited for the NC Gospel Era. This is why it was dependent on Christ, the one whose life and work ushered in the NC and its FIRST and GREATEST Apostle, to lay down the example for his followers. Only he, on whose authority the change from OC to NC depends can teach such a Sabbath reform as to remove from it the OC restrictions and usher in a new day for Sabbath observance.

Therefore each of his Sabbath confrontation carried meaning, each lesson bore his careful and masterful plan to bless and benefit his Church. As Teacher and Rabbi, his purpose was clear for those he was to call his own. His example, which he began and was “confirmed to us by those who heard him” forever establishes the “NC ways”

Matt. 28: 16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.

Matt. 28:17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.

Matt. 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Matt. 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Matt. 28: 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Heb. 2:1 We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.

Heb. 2:2 For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment,

Heb. 2:3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.

Heb. 2:4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

That Christ intended his disciples to use his example and teaching in the preaching of the Gospel is clear from the above verses. Thus Christ saw it as important for those He would entrust with the huge responsibility of Apostleship, to not only hear his new teaching on his reformed Sabbath but to be eyewitnesses of these reforms, even as they saw him clash with the religious leaders.

But such eyewitnesses, while ordained by Christ to be Apostles and through whose words many are to come to faith in Christ (John 17:20), are NOT themselves the “messenger of the covenant.” Neither do their words carry over that of Christ’s.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.

Thus did Christ’s followers esteem his life and ministry, which includes His teachings and example on Sabbath reform. As the Word, who was with God and was God, He it is who was in the beginning with God. While all others sent from God (and this includes Christ’s Apostles) are from below and pass on what they were instructed, Jesus Christ, the Word, has been from the “beginning” with God and trumps all other voices that are messengers from God. This is how his disciples esteemed his authority in ALL things, and so to must all those who claim to follow him through their teaching.

Bob_2 said: To say so ruins your credibility.

I say: I disagree. To run roughshod of Christ’s Sabbath reform “ruins your credibility”. So too is this unbelievably foolish notion that somehow the Apostle’s writings trumps Christ’s words and example for His Church. Utter nonsense!

Bob_2 said: Christ sacrificed at the temple with His family, but when He said it is finished, IT WAS FINISHED.

I say: I agree. Christ’s sacrificial death on Calvary was indeed the great consummation, fulfillment, and cessation of all the animal sacrifices from Adam till the Cross. That such a work was the fulfillment and reality of all the bloodied altars that shadowed it is no secret. But clumping His work on Sabbath reform into this “IT WAS FINISHED” is irrational and unsupported by Scripture.

Moreover, nowhere in the entire NT did any of the Apostles teach or gave any indications that Christ “fulfilled” the Sabbath and removed it from the Gospel of Salvation. You pretending otherwise or choosing to ignore what the Bible says does not change that.

Bob_2 said: Yes the leaders had added how far you could walk on Sabbath, whether healing on Sabbath was work, but Christ's corrections were for the OC way of Sabbath keeping.

I say: You need to go back and re-read what the bible says about the work of the coming Messiah. While it is true that Christ did have to deal with the misuse and legalistic trappings the Jews added to Sabbath observance, this was not the only changes he made. Christ did not simply correct the Jews for their wearisome and erroneous Sabbath observance, showing them what true Sabbath observance was like, He reformed it altogether and suited it for the NC Gospel.

Bob_2 said: If His appointed apostle said the Sabbath rest is found in Christ Himself, who are you to counter and cling to the Gospels and not see the whole picture.

I say: This unfounded notion is not only wrong, but you have failed several times over at your attempt at twisting Scripture to prove it. Why do you keep insisting? And you would make a comment about getting the “whole picture” in a sentence in which you place the words of the apostles over that of Christ’s example and teaching? Are you even listening to yourself?

tom_norris · 03-02-10 1:27 pm

Bob 2 said: Tom, who else agrees with your position. This is the third time asking.

Tom said: Answered in previous post.

Bob 2 said: For an SDA to claim the majority clings to a Sabbath of some kind, is not exactly the way a remnant church argues their points, is it?

Tom said: It is your position that there is no Sabbath for the church because Jesus is the Sabbath.

I am pointing out that your view has never been accepted by the church, nor should it. The majority is more correct than you, even though they don’t have the Sabbath doctrine fully correct as yet.

Those who make up their own doctrines, like you are doing about the Sabbath, are not Christian. They are not part of the Kingdom of God as they assume. They are not paying any attention to Jesus teaching.

Bob 2 said: Requiring of people something that is not Biblical or required of God can be fatal also.

Tom said: All that claim to follow the teachings of Christ, must embrace his doctrines, which includes the Gospel Sabbath.

No one is free to make up his or her own view of the NC Sabbath. This is what all have done, including the SDA’s. They ALL have a false Sabbath and distorted Gospel.

Bob 2 said: Check your sources, and get back to me. OH, yeah, shorten it to "succinctly" if possible. Thanks

Tom said: My primary sources are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Their Gospel accounts contain the REFORMED, active Sabbath as taught by Jesus for the Church. Ignore these sources at your own peril.

Bob 2 said: The way Christ kept the Sabbath and worshiped at the temple is no where close to the NC ways.

Tom said: Christ is the author of the Gospel Sabbath for the church. You can ignore this theological fact if you want, but those that are honest and properly trained in hermeneutics cannot.

Furthermore, do not confuse the Temple in Jerusalem, with its many OC services, including much blood, which was cursed by Christ, with the synagogue system.

Bob 2 said: Christ sacrificed at the temple with His family,

Tom said: This point, if true, in no way destroys the Sabbath.

The NT shows Christ routinely going into the synagogue every Sabbath to pray, sing, read the Word and teach the Gospel. This Jewish model became the basis for the weekly church service. The Passover Seder became the model for the Eucharist, even as the red wine represented the BLOOD that flowed in the Temple rituals, as well as down the cross.

So the weekly synagogue service, as well as the bloody Temple rituals, have been made part of church doctrine. Thus real wine now flows in the church, instead of the blood of animals in the Temple, even as the church meets every 7th day to pray, sing, read the Word and hear the Gospel.

Bob 2 said: but when He said it is finished, IT WAS FINISHED.

Tom said: Jesus never said that the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath was “finished” or that it had ended. You are delusional to say such a thing. You really need to take some college level courses in basic theology in order to bring some logic and order to your incoherent jumble of assumptions. You really need to study much more. This is not easy material to understand because there has been so much nonsense taught to all by the religious leaders. It will take some serious study to understand.

Bob 2 said: Yes the leaders had added how far you could walk on Sabbath, whether healing on Sabbath was work, but Christ's corrections were for the OC way of Sabbath keeping.

Tom said: Christ REFORMED, REVISED, and UPDATED the OC Sabbath for the NC Church. This is what he was doing in all four Gospels. Those that think otherwise, do not understand the NT or the basics of theology.

Bob 2 said: All the blood and sacrifice of animals, done away with.

Tom said: You are not paying attention. There were no animal sacrifices or blood associated with the weekly Sabbath services in the synagogues. Nor was Jesus death on the cross meant to abolish the Sabbath or stop the church from meeting each Sabbath.

Bob 2 said: If His appointed apostle said the Sabbath rest is found in Christ Himself, who are you to counter and cling to the Gospels and not see the whole picture.

Tom said: No apostle ever said that Jesus is our Sabbath rest. This is your own personal delusion that you and others want to force into the Gospel Story.

I suggest that you try and honestly read the Gospels and study what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. You either accept his authority and teaching or you don’t. And you don’t. That is your choice. All are free to repudiate Jesus and most will do just that.

But don’t pretend your delusions and misreading of the NT as anywhere close to being valid or correct. Sorry. The Kingdom of God is closed to all that refuse to be honest with the Word.

Bob 2 said: Help me with your Fourth Angel, where in Rev 18:1-3 does it talk of the Sabbath issue.

Tom said: First, prophecy is for those inside the church, not for those critics on the outside.

1Cor. 14:22 but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.

Second: If you can’t understand the Gospel Sabbath, no need to get into eschatology. Your brain is already on overload.

Third, the 4th Angels Message, located in Rev 18, represents the final theological development of the Protestant Gospel.

This short period of Gospel proclamation and warning, represents the accumulated truths from all the ages, including the 7 fundamental pillars of the Three Angels Messages.

Where ever the Gospel is preached, so too is the Gospel Sabbath. The two are part of a package deal, just like in the ministry of Jesus

Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

Bob 2 said: There are plenty of churches that worship on Sunday or other days, that don't do so because the "Beast" does.

Tom said: All churches, without exception, embrace a weekly Sabbath, regardless if it is on Sunday or not. Their basis for doing so is based on the Moral law, as well as the Sabbath teachings of Jesus in the Gospels.

Thus the Sabbath in the church was never based on the SDA’s immature eschatology about the Beast Power.

Not one church teaches that Jesus did away with the Sabbath. Rather, they all embrace a weekly Sabbath (Sunday) doctrine, even if very imperfectly.

At the end of time, those that are seeking for truth will understand the Gospel, and the Gospel Sabbath correctly. Thus, a great division will occur in the church between those that accept the clear Gospel teachings of Jesus and those that do not. The NC Sabbath will be a public test of loyalty to Christ and his Gospel.

Bob 2 said: There is no command in the NT/NC to make one day more holy than another,

Tom said: Jesus commands that all should come to him, and follow his teaching for forgiveness, spiritual rest, and Eternal salvation. Such a command includes that we embrace his Gospel Sabbath, which he taught is a special day.

To those that come to Jesus, he gives the Spirit, and his “easy” Sabbath for their enjoyment.

Matt. 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

The NC Sabbath is part of this rest from Jesus. So the real “command” from Jesus to all is: “follow me.” Those that follow him, MUST also follow his teaching about the Sabbath. Those that don’t, are following a false Christ down a fatal path of delusion.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

Those that FOLLOW Jesus will also follow and embrace his view of the Gospel Sabbath. It is just this simple. How can anyone misunderstand?

The Sabbath is part of the Moral Law, and thus God made it holy for the OC Jews. Jesus came along, claiming to be the authority on the Sabbath, and dramatically revised this holy day for the church.

Jesus even claimed that God the father told him about the working, NC Sabbath.

So what is the point of pretending?

Those that follow Jesus, will also follow his Sabbath teaching. Those that don’t are not really Christians are they? They are just pretending. And the Sabbath doctrine of Jesus will expose all that reject it-- as pretenders. They will be banished from the Kingdom of God.

Bob 2 said: Tom, you are still very much a Jew in your views, maybe not even SDA, from what I can see.

Tom said: The Christian Faith is 100% Jewish. So too Jesus, and all the apostles. All must become spiritual Jews to enter into the Kingdom of God, which is the New Israel, the Church of the Jewish God.

As for me being an SDA in the traditional sense, I am not. TA is a farce that must be totally repudiated and reformed.

The SDA’s are so confused, and have so many things wrong, that their own Pioneers would repudiate most everything they teach, and so do I. They must zealously repent if they want to play any positive role in the last day events.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Last edited by tom_norris (03-02-10 9:59 pm)

bob_2 · 03-03-10 2:29 am

Tom said:

No one is free to make up his or her own view of the NC Sabbath.

Amen, Tom. BTW, where is that list of scholars that I was asking for that believe the same way you do on this issue. I would really like to talk with them. Sort of like References, you know.

bob_2 · 03-04-10 1:26 pm

OK, you continue to avoid giving others that believe as you, Tom, scholars who interpret as you do, so I will give individuals who have studied and come up NCT:

If there is another day then it isn’t Saturday. There is another rest that the author is referring to in the future. The Israelites did not enter God's rest because of unbelief, not having faith but they did keep the Sabbath. They had the rules and regulations the oracles, but it was not mixed with faith. God has always looked to our heart, our attitude in the Spirit. The word for rest in vs.9 is the same word for Sabbath in the Greek. It is a Sabbath that never ends. In Heb.4.the author writes For the one who enters his rest he himself rests as God himself rested from his works. Today Jesus is our Sabbath. our every type, command, ordinance in the Old Testament He fulfilled.
Israel in the Old covenant rested in a day; we rest in the Person and His finished work. It was a picture of the future rest in the new covenant, the cross has the same implication, God finished his work. Our Sabbath day is rest in our soul, it is by faith. Under faith we can cease from our own works. Works that were required for the Israelites to do in the Old covenant to be accepted by god In this way the believer enters in and ceases from his own labors. God was bringing Israel to the promised land after their labors in Egypt this typifies rest in Messiah. “
Hebrews 4 tells us to be diligent to enter his Sabbath rest (4:11), we do this 365 days a year. This rest is found only in the Messiah who accomplished all of God’s work in our place. If you do not cease from your labors then you are not obedient to the New Testament Sabbath

http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd25.htm

bob_2 · 03-04-10 1:36 pm

Another:

You state that the Sabbath has not been rescinded because it is mentioned in Luke 23:56. First, a small point of correction Luke 23:56 is not the last sentence of Luke’s gospel account. Luke’s gospel ends at 24:53. Second, why would you assume that the Sabbath is still valid because Jewish women kept a Sabbath? Luke points out that the women kept the Sabbath because of the commandment. This commandment can only be found in the Old Testament. There is no commandment to keep the Sabbath in the New Testament after Calvary. It is certainly grasping at straws to assert that Christians must keep the Sabbath because Jewish women did this after Jesus had died. Don’t forget that the Holy Spirit was not given to the Church until Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4). It is the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised would lead the Church into all truth (John 16:12-13). One of these truths is that the sign of the obsolete covenant (Hebrews 8:13) is likewise obsolete (Colossians 2:16-17; Romans 14:5; Galatians 4:10). Luke was simply informing his readers when the event occurred. He was not teaching its validity for New Covenant believers. He had plenty of opportunity to teach that in the book of Acts, but he never did.

http://contendingfortruth.com/2008/12/d … he-sabbath

Read the whole question and response if it gives more context.

bob_2 · 03-04-10 1:42 pm

From the same article just given:

You complain that the Sabbath was Colossians 2:16 cannot be the 7th day Sabbath because it is a moral commandment. I believe that, like all the Sabbaths, the 7th day Sabbath is ceremonial. I believe this to be the clear teaching of the Bible. I see Levitcus 23 as very strongly teaching that all the Sabbaths are one unit of ceremonial feasts of the Lord God. For example, at the very beginning of the chapter God calls all Sabbaths, “My feast days” (v. 2). Then Moses begins listing all the Sabbaths God gave to the Israelites. Moses makes absolutely no distinction between the 7th day Sabbath and all the other “feast days”. The chapter concludes, “Thus did Moses announce to the Israelites the feasts of the Lord” (v. 44). I find nothing in this chapter to indicate that the 7th day Sabbath is moral and the other Sabbaths ceremonial. I do not find God making any distinction between the Sabbaths that He calls, “My feast days.”

elaine · 03-04-10 8:56 pm

Bob, this is one area where we agree: There is never a command in the NT for Christians to keep any day holy.

The Lord made all days, and the Psalmist says: "This is the day the Lord hath made; let us rejoice and be glad." Every day is the day of the Lord.

Had Christ instituted a new church, which he didn't, it might have continued only to be another Jewish sect. But the new Jewish Christians: Peter and Paul, after Pentecost, realized that God was no respecter of persons as before when the Jews had been His chosen people. Now there was no difference: all were alike, and there were no barriers formerly erected to separate God's peope--the Jews--from all the other people.

If it was not God who gave Paul specific instructions (very few) for new Christians, did he simply decide that no longer was circumcision, sabbath (two very uniquely Jewish practices) so as to make "One" people in Christ?

All those who wish to observe the first, fifth, sixth, or seventh day or free to choose. But they should never judge or condemn those who do not observe any certain day. Earth time is not God's time. If the light of God is always in heaven, there can be no night, which distinguishes day from night.

To believe that God looks down on a global world where there is no one single time for a day of rest, is to say God is very small. And who wants to worship such a small god who would judge someone who observed the first day when it's either the second or seventh somewhere on a round earth?

elaine · 03-04-10 8:59 pm

elaine wrote:

Bob, this is one area where we agree: There is never a command in the NT for Christians to keep any day holy.
The Lord made all days, and the Psalmist says: "This is the day the Lord hath made; let us rejoice and be glad." Every day is the day of the Lord.
Had Christ instituted a new church, which he didn't, it might have continued only to be another Jewish sect. But the new Jewish Christians: Peter and Paul, after Pentecost, realized that God was no respecter of persons as before when the Jews had been His chosen people. Now there was no difference: all were alike, and there were no barriers formerly erected to separate God's peope--the Jews--from all the other people.
If it was not God who gave Paul specific instructions (very few) for new Christians, did he simply decide that no longer was circumcision, sabbath (two very uniquely Jewish practices) so as to make "One" people in Christ?
All those who wish to observe the first, fifth, sixth, or seventh day or free to choose. But they should never judge or condemn those who do not observe any certain day. Earth time is not God's time. If the light of God is always in heaven, there can be no night, which distinguishes day from night.
To believe that God looks down on a global world where there is no one single time for a day of rest, is to say God is very small. And who wants to worship such a small god who would judge someone who observed the first day when it's either the second or seventh somewhere on a round earth?

bob_2 · 03-05-10 1:41 am

Tom, another scholar, though self-proclaimed, quotes themselves and there exegesis on the subject. Thanks Professor Elaine Nelson.

tom_norris · 03-06-10 11:59 am

Bob 2 said: Amen, Tom. BTW, where is that list of scholars that I was asking for that believe the same way you do on this issue? I would really like to talk with them. Sort of like References, you know.

Tom said: You may not talk directly to the apostles, as they are all long dead. They are “Holy Sleepers,” to use the phrase that Luther coined to correctly define those who have died in Christ.

However, their Sabbath theology has survived in the form of the NT, especially in the four Gospels.

Bob 2 said: OK, you continue to avoid giving others that believe as you, Tom, scholars who interpret as you do, so I will give individuals who have studied and come up NCT.

First, I told you that Dr. Ford agrees 100% with my view of the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath. So you can read his writings and books, as well as ask him any questions directly online.

Dr. Ford is a world-class theologian. He supports the NC, 7th day Sabbath. Stop pretending that no scholars today support the Gospel Sabbath.

http://www.desford.org.au/live/

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … View-1.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Ford

http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/welcome.cfm

http://www.desford.org.au/home/

Secondly, those that you cited, that claim to have “studied” the correct Sabbath for the church have failed to grasp the topic, even as they have overlooked numerous passages in order to force the outcome to be what they want. These incompetent proof texters do not understand Hebrews 4: 9, and thus they have exposed themselves as uneducated fools and worthless hacks for all to see.

Their claim that the Greek supports their anti-Sabbatarian view is flat out wrong, and so too is their attempt to let the whole question of the Sabbath be decided by one text from Hebrews.

So this crowd does not know how to “study” or read the Bible. They need to repent and learn proper hermeneutics. They are loose cannons in the dark.

The anti-Sabbatarian critics say: “The word for rest in vs.9 is the same word for Sabbath in the Greek. It is a Sabbath that never ends. In Heb.4.the author writes: For the one who enters his rest he himself rests as God himself rested from his works. Today Jesus is our Sabbath. our every type, command, ordinance in the Old Testament He fulfilled.

Tom said: THIS IS ALL WRONG. The passage is not saying what they claim. The Greek DOES NOT mean a spiritual Sabbath, but a weekly one for the church. This text, in the GREEK, actually says the OPPOSITE of what they claim.

Here is more nonsense from the blind:

“Hebrews 4 tells us to be diligent to enter his Sabbath rest (4:11), we do this 365 days a year. This rest is found only in the Messiah who accomplished all of God’s work in our place. If you do not cease from your labors then you are not obedient to the New Testament Sabbath.”

Tom said: This passage is really saying that there is a weekly Sabbath for the Church. It is not saying what the anti-Sabbatarians assume, nor is it the proper passage to try and understand the doctrine of the NC Sabbath. That would be in the Gospels.

We went over Heb 4:9 on the "Sabbath in Colossians thread." Did you forget so soon? All the anti-Sabbatarians use both Col 2: 16 combined with Heb 4: 9 to make their case. But they have no case. Sorry.

http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=242

Bob 2 said: You state that the Sabbath has not been rescinded because it is mentioned in Luke 23:56.

Tom said: I don’t recall ever making such an argument. But regardless, no part of the Moral law has ever been “rescinded.” And neither the RCC nor the Protestants have ever said otherwise.

Bob 2 said: Luke points out that the women kept the Sabbath because of the commandment. This commandment can only be found in the Old Testament. There is no commandment to keep the Sabbath in the New Testament after Calvary.

Tom said: Ha! Then why has the church observed a weekly Sabbath for the past 2,000 years? On what basis are they doing this?

The church is to keep the reformed Sabbath as taught by Jesus in the Gospels. No one is to keep the OC, Levitical controlled Sabbath in the NC, much less a Sunday Lord's Day.

Jesus made it clear that the OC, non-working Sabbath was replaced with a different version that upheld the Priesthood of all believers. Here is a very different, but very real Gospel Sabbath for the church.

Jesus is the head of the Church. His Sabbath doctrine is what the church must embrace. At this point in time, there is NO church in the world that has the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath correct. Not the Sunday keepers or the SDA’s.

It is a shocking and stunning situation that was foretold in prophecy. The SDA’s were correct to see that the 7th day will play a role in the final Gospel proclamation. Too bad that had the wrong Gospel and the WRONG Sabbath. They were so close, but…

Bob 2 said: It is certainly grasping at straws to assert that Christians must keep the Sabbath because Jewish women did this after Jesus had died.

Tom said: I never made such an argument as you assert.

I have said, over and over, that Christians must follow the teachings of Christ. This includes his NC, Sabbath doctrine. Thus the NC Sabbath is based on the authority and teaching of Christ, not because of any Jewish women.

Bob 2 said: Don’t forget that the Holy Spirit was not given to the Church until Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4). It is the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised would lead the Church into all truth (John 16:12-13). One of these truths is that the sign of the obsolete covenant (Hebrews 8:13) is likewise obsolete (Colossians 2:16-17; Romans 14:5; Galatians 4:10).

Tom said: Jesus, the author of the Gospel Sabbath, did not lack any Holy Sprit when he taught about the Sabbath. So his words are full of spirit and light, even as he claimed they were given to him from God the Father. Ignore and refute them at your our risk.

While the OC, including the OC Sabbath, was abolished in the 1st century, it was updated and replaced by the NC, which also includes the NC Sabbath. This is a theological fact that few understand. But it is true, regardless of how few know it.

Remember, the apostolic church was 100% Jewish and they understood what Jesus was teaching about the Sabbath.

Bob 2 quoted more anti-Sabbatarian confusion:

“You complain that the Sabbath in Colossians 2:16 cannot be the 7th day Sabbath because it is a moral commandment. I believe that, like all the Sabbaths, the 7th day Sabbath is ceremonial.”

Tom said:

1. The Sabbath referenced in Col 2: 16 IS the Sabbath of the Moral Law, as reformed by Christ for the church.

2. Faulty Hermeneutics in action: It matters zero what this person believes. He is not an apostle. So this “I believe” language is worthless and a diversion. The real question is this: What does Jesus teach and “believe” about the NC Sabbath? What do the apostles teach in the NT?

Ha! “I believe” this and “I believe that.” Who cares? Doctrine is not based on what anyone “believes.” Rather, it is based 100% on the Words of the apostles. Only what THEY BELIEVE, in writing, matters.

3. The Sabbath is located in the center of the Moral Law. Which means it can never be marginalized away, as if its’ origins came from the Levitical ceremonial laws.

So it must be considered in the same category as the other nine, even though it is different in nature, unique from all the others.

4. Moreover, the fact that the Sabbath may be viewed as some kind of ceremonial law, in no way disqualifies it as NT doctrine. The church has a number of mandatory ceremonies, (ceremonial laws), such as Baptism and the Eucharist, which takes place repeatedly. So adding the NC Sabbath to this list is hardly a problem. In fact, it makes a perfect trifecta of ceremonial observances for the church.

Those that refuse baptism, and refuse to drink real wine at the Eucharist, and repudiate the Gospel Sabbath, are banished from the Kingdom of God.

So the argument that the NC Sabbath contains ceremonial elements is no argument against it whatsoever. The NC Sabbath is indeed is weekly ceremony where the Word is uplifted and the Jewish God worshiped in congregational format. This is a good ritual, approved by Jesus in all four Gospels.

Such a holy convocation, every 7th day, is pleasing to God; according to Jesus. Very pleasing.

So the NC Sabbath represents BOTH the Moral Law and Ceremonial ritual for the church that has been sanctified and taught by Christ. He expects his church to follow the synagogue ritual and meet every 7th day to hear the Word and worship God through the Gospel.

Two Sabbaths

While the OC Sabbath was loaded down with many OC rules and restrictions, the NC Sabbath is very different. Many fail to understand that there are TWO very different and mutually exclusive Sabbaths. The OC and the NC Sabbath.

Prohibited OC Sabbath Activates:

http://www.thenazareneway.com/sabbath/3 … abbath.htm

So the anti-Sabbatarian critics need to stop pretending that there is only one Sabbath doctrine for both Covenants. This is not true. There is a very different 7th day Sabbath for each Covenant.

Those who protest the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath, are CORRECT TO DO SO, because they have embraced the OC Sabbath, which was ABOLISHED. And those that claim the Sunday Sabbath is an unbiblical fraud, are also very correct.

However, those who protest the 7th day, NC Sabbath that Jesus clearly teaches in all four Gospels, are making a grave mistake.

The Gospel is a 100% Jewish paradigm. Therefore, there can be no Sunday Sabbath, or OC Sabbath for the church. But there is a NC, active Sabbath, as taught by Jesus in the Gospels.

Those that follow Jesus, and correctly understand the Gospel Story, will willingly and gladly embrace his active, Gospel Sabbath. They will run from the Gentile fraud of Sunday, a doctrine taught by those who pretend to be like the Levites. And run from the SDA OC Sabbath, that is also promoted by a Levitical, OC system.

There is only one version of the Sabbath that upholds the Gospel principle of the Priesthood of all believers; and it is the active, NC Sabbath of Jesus.

Today, there is not one church or denomination that has a correct Gospel or a correct view of the Sabbath. This is why the truth about the Gospel Sabbath will shock and condemn every church in the land. They all claim to be following Jesus correctly, but the opposite is the case. They have ALL followed a fraud of their own making.

Rom. 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Rom. 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches 1both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

Rom. 11:34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?

Rom. 11:35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?

Who says God does not have a sense of humor? Who says he does not predict the future?

Every church in Laodicea has the wrong Sabbath and the wrong view of the Gospel. Not some of them; but all of them. Who saw that coming?

No wonder they have all been condemned in the Pre-Advent Judgment of the Church, which is the LM. No wonder that the last church is the worst church, and that is must repent or be doomed.

Bob 2 quoted more nonsense from the anti Sabbath crowd:

“I see Leviticus 23 as very strongly teaching that all the Sabbaths are one unit of ceremonial feasts of the Lord God. For example, at the very beginning of the chapter God calls all Sabbaths, “My feast days” (v. 2). Then Moses begins listing all the Sabbaths God gave to the Israelites. Moses makes absolutely no distinction between the 7th day Sabbath and all the other “feast days”. The chapter concludes, “Thus did Moses announce to the Israelites the feasts of the Lord” (v. 44). I find nothing in this chapter to indicate that the 7th day Sabbath is moral and the other Sabbaths ceremonial. I do not find God making any distinction between the Sabbaths that He calls, “My feast days.” Blah, blah, blah…

Tom said: Jesus, not Moses, is the one that teaches the NC Sabbath for the church. Why is anyone looking for the NC Sabbath, in the OC? Is this a joke, or have these people lost their minds?

The NC Sabbath is not to be found in the OT. Look in the NT. That is where it resides.

Elaine, another anti-Sabbatarian said:

Bob, this is one area where we agree: There is never a command in the NT for Christians to keep any day holy.

Tom said: Many who come from the SDA community have been misled to believe that the Sabbath is the greatest of all doctrines. And that OC Sabbath keeping is a great command that all must obey by keeping the day “holy”- by which they mean no work or play.

But the OC Sabbath is not even a doctrine in the church, much less the greatest of all doctrines. Nor is there any direct command to follow the OC Sabbath, as the SDA’s claim.

Jesus, and his Gospel are the greatest of all doctrines in the church. Not the Sabbath.

Jesus says to all: “follow me.”

THIS is the COMMAND given to all. Those that follow Jesus, and accept his Gospel, will also embrace his Gospel Sabbath. That is part of obeying the command to follow Jesus.

But of course Jesus is promoting the NC Sabbath, not the OC Sabbath. And this is a very different Sabbath from what most all people assume and teach, including the SDA’s.

The SDA’s have made fools of themselves to think we are to follow Jesus and embrace the OC Sabbath that he clearly repudiated in the Gospels. They have gone mad, and so too those that think there is NO Sabbath for the church. That too is irrational and absurd.

So Elaine, both you and Bob 2 are wrong to think that there is no Sabbath for the church. There is, but neither of you have ever been taught the correct version, so the truth seems impossible to you.

You both attack the OC Sabbath, as if you think that this doctrine is what I am promoting. But I am promoting the NC Sabbath, something that few comprehend as yet.

Elaine said: The Lord made all days, and the Psalmist says: "This is the day the Lord hath made; let us rejoice and be glad." Every day is the day of the Lord.

Tom said: The Jews always considered the 7th day to be special. So too did Jesus. And so too the church from the very beginning and at all times. So your point is very wrong and heretical. You are not a Christian to think this way. Sorry.

Elaine said: Had Christ instituted a new church, which he didn't, it might have continued only to be another Jewish sect. But the new Jewish Christians: Peter and Paul, after Pentecost, realized that God was no respecter of persons as before when the Jews had been His chosen people. Now there was no difference: all were alike, and there were no barriers formerly erected to separate God's people--the Jews--from all the other people.

Tom said: First, anyone that states Christ did not start the Church is ignorant of both the NT and church history. The record clearly states that Jesus did start the church, and such a blasphemous position disqualifies anyone from further discussion. It is gross incompetence and dishonesty to take such an absurd view of the Gospel Story.

Shame on you Elaine, you should know better.

Jew & Gentile:

When you say the Jews and Gentiles were now “all a like.” How does that do away with the Sabbath? On what basis? The Gentiles made up their own Sabbath, which was very different from the Sabbath of the Jews.

Ha! If both the Jews and Gentiles were really all alike, why did the Gentiles go off to invent the Sunday Sabbath? There was never such a doctrine in the history of Judaism. It was a Gentile invention because they did not want to be exactly like the Jews. To this very day, the Gentiles are NOT like the Jews, or like the Jewish Christians of the apostolic era.

Here is what really happened. The Gentiles were allowed into the Jewish paradigm, through the New Covenant. Only by submitting to the teachings of the Jewish Messiah, and embracing a number of reformed Jewish ceremonies, Baptism, Eucharist, and the Sabbath, can the Gentiles become like the Jews, members of the Kingdom of the Jewish God.

All those that seek Eternal Life through the Gospel must become spiritual Jews. They must embrace the God of Abraham and the Gospel Faith of Abraham, as well as the teachings of Jesus, and thus all, whether Jew or Gentile, male or female, will enter into the Kingdom of God on an equal basis.

Unless all follow this formula, none can they enter the Church, which is only by faith in the Jewish Messiah. All church theology is Jewish, which is why it is impossible to remove the doctrine of the Sabbath from either the New or Old Covenants.

Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.

Rom. 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Rom. 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

Rom. 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

Rom. 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

Rom. 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

Rom. 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Rom. 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Rom. 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Rom. 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

There is no Gentile Covenant. Nor is there a valid Gentile, Sunday, Sabbath. The house of Israel will always have a 7th day doctrine, in both covenants. There is no way to remove the Sabbath.

Elaine said: If it was not God who gave Paul specific instructions (very few) for new Christians, did he simply decide that no longer was circumcision, sabbath (two very uniquely Jewish practices) so as to make "One” people in Christ?

Tom said: Paul claims that he was taught the Gospel by the risen Christ. The other apostles were taught the Gospel by Christ, prior to the ascension, and long before Paul became a Christian.

Gal. 1:12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Gal. 2:2 It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain.

Eph. 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles —

Eph. 3:2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you;

Eph. 3:3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.

Eph. 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

Eph. 3:5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

Eph. 3:6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

Eph. 3:7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.

Elaine said: All those (Christians) who wish to observe the first, fifth, sixth, or seventh day or free to choose.

Tom said: Wrong. Neither the Gentiles nor the Jews are free to change the fundamental doctrines of the Kingdom of God as taught by Jesus, much less the Moral law. Although the Gentiles thought they were free to change the Sabbath to Sunday, and they did so once the Jews lost control of the Gospel Story, there was never any basis to do so.

Only the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath, as taught by Jesus in all four Gospels, is correct theology for the church. None are free to change the Lord’s Day to Sunday, or to Tuesday or any other day as you claim.

Nor is the Church to observe the OC Sabbath of Moses, as the SDA’s have so incompetently done for all to see. They have done great damage to the Gospel Sabbath, even as they have turned it into a legalistic and false doctrine that reflects how the Pharisees viewed things.

Do not confuse the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath for the genuine Gospel Sabbath that is taught by Jesus in the Gospels. Those who make this error, which is just as bad as the Sunday error, if not more so, are making a fatal mistake.

Those that think they can pick and choose whatever doctrines they want, daring to repudiate what Jesus clearly teaches about the Gospel Sabbath, are banished from the Kingdom of the Jewish God. They are doomed because they do not embrace the Gospel or follow Jesus.

John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.

John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

Elaine said: But they should never judge or condemn those who do not observe any certain day.

Tom said: If Jesus, the chief theologian of the church, teaches that all are free to make up their own Sabbath day, or to view all days alike, that is what all must do.
But this is not what Jesus teaches.

Those that follow Jesus, must embrace his Jewish based teachings, including this very obvious and clear teaching about the weekly 7th day, reformed Sabbath. None are free to ignore Jesus doctrine of the NC Sabbath. None!

Elaine said: Earth time is not God's time. If the light of God is always in heaven, there can be no night, which distinguishes day from night.

Tom said: God made the earth. So he owns it, as well as the Sun, which gives light to all.

Moreover, God sent his Son to earth to be its spiritual light, and to represent God to mankind through the Gospel. Thus Jesus is the light of the world. And so too his Sabbath teachings.

John 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

Note that the context of this next passage is about the debate over the Gospel Sabbath. Jesus teaches that the NC Sabbath will create division and separate those that are honest and true from those whose religion is a fraud. Thus the NC Sabbath is presented in the Gospel Story as a doctrine of Judgment, and division.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

Those that embrace the Sunday Sabbath, or the OC Sabbath of the SDA’s, or the Allegorical, everyday Sabbath, are blind to the Gospel, unable to understand the NT. They are living in darkness, even though they claim to be full of light and truth.

But Jesus is no fool, and neither are those that understand the Gospel. Those that think they can manipulate the Word to support their errors are confused and delusional, they are locked in deep darkness, even as they have forfeited Eternal Life.

Matt. 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light.

Matt. 6:23 “But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

Let all be careful how they treat the Word.

Elaine said: To believe that God looks down on a global world where there is no one single time for a day of rest, is to say God is very small. And who wants to worship such a small god who would judge someone who observed the first day when it's either the second or seventh somewhere on a round earth?

Tom said: Ha! So the God of the universe has made a mistake? What a foolish God he must be to make such a big deal of the Sabbath in the OC! He must have forgotten that the world he made was round. Good for you to be the one to correct the almighty and his co-creator Jesus Christ. Let me know how that works out for you?

Then to make matters worse, this “small” and “judgmental” God sends his Son to earth and guess what? He also makes a big deal about the Sabbath. Ha! Jesus makes the same error as his Father.

So Jesus was also a fool to promote the Sabbath as a special day in the NC. He must be an idiot to promote such error? Who wants to worship such a foolish God and his stupid Son? Not Elaine and many others who are certain that that NC Sabbath is a false and mistaken doctrine.

Those that want to understand the Gospel, will read the NT honestly. Those that do not believe the Gospel Story are banished from the Kingdom of God.

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Those that fight against the Gospel Sabbath are doing the same work as the religious leaders in Jesus day that hated the Gospel.

John 1:5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

John 3:19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

John 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

I hope this helps those that want to understand. I doubt anything will help those that do not want to see. They are blind on purpose.

Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath

Last edited by tom_norris (03-06-10 3:37 pm)

bob_2 · 03-06-10 11:53 pm

First in this book review of Ratzlaff's by Ford, he overlooks Lev 23 that lists the Sabbath with all Festivals:

It is the following book of Leviticus that begins the list of ceremonial enactments, whereas the blood was applied to the record of the Ten Commandments and their enlargements (called "judgments") for Israel.

http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … review.cfm

He somehow missed the list of God's festivals:

Lev 23: 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'These are my appointed feasts,..
Lev 23: 3 " 'There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD."...
Lev 23:37 (" 'These are the LORD's appointed feasts, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies for bringing offerings made to the LORD by fire—the burnt offerings and grain offerings, sacrifices and drink offerings required for each day. 38 These offerings are in addition to those for the LORD's Sabbaths and [e] in addition to your gifts and whatever you have vowed and all the freewill offerings you give to the LORD.)

tom_norris · 03-07-10 6:44 pm

Bob 2; You posted a great link that is right on point! Even though it seems we are on the wrong thread, as there are a number of them about the Reformed Sabbath. This is the “Tribulation” Thread.

But guess what?

All discussion about eschatology, very quickly leads to the Sabbath, the great pillar of the 3rd Angels Message. Because the Sabbath doctrine plays such a large and pivotal role in SDA eschatology, it cannot function without it.

The great challenge for the Adventist Community is to correctly understand both the Gospel and the Sabbath. Unless they get these two doctrines correct, they will continue to flounder and self-destruct.

But when they get them correct, the paradigm will shift to the 4th Angels Message; the final level of Gospel Truth. A time of dramatic growth that will be unparalleled in the history of Adventism and maybe the entire church.

So good job to post a debate between Dr. Ford and Dale Ratzlaff over the Sabbath.

http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … review.cfm

The Adventist Community needs to understand what Dr. Ford and Dale Ratzlaff are both saying and why. They are both Gospel minded men, and they both have something important to say, even though they have very different views on the Sabbath.

Once the issues are laid out on the table for all to see, it will become obvious how to solve the impasse.

Dr. Ford is correct to champion the 7th, day Sabbath, and Ratzlaff is also correct to declare the OC Sabbath of the SDA’s very wrong and abolished.

They are both correct! So what is the solution?

There is a NC Sabbath that has been overlooked by the Gentile church. This is the Sabbath that Dr. Ford is promoting, even if he is not articulating it as strongly as Tom Norris.

Although the SDA’s claimed to have found this true Sabbath, they have been caught promoting the OC Sabbath, which is forbidden in the NC. This is what Ratzlaff is correctly attacking. He is right. The SDA’s have the wrong Gospel and the wrong Sabbath.

A New Sabbath

Today, there is a very different and unknown Sabbath about to emerge. It is the Gospel Sabbath as taught by Jesus in the NT, and embraced by the early apostolic church.

It is only on the 7th day, like the SDA’s said, but it allows all manner of activity and work, which they never allowed, even as it supports the Priesthood of all believers, which is the opposite of the how the tithe paying, hierarchical minded Adventists have developed.

So it is very different, even as it is also different from the Sunday fraud, which is also mediated from a (RC) Levitical model.

A Sabbath of Peace

The Gospel Sabbath will bring peace to the fractured Adventists, even as it separates the Judaizers from those that actually believe the Gospel.

This REFORMED Sabbath would meet Dr. Ford’s approval, and so too all the evangelical minded SDA’s that correctly repudiated the legalistic, OC Sabbath of the SDA’s, like Richard Fredericks, Bob Brown, and Dale Ratzlaff, etc.

There is only one Gospel and one Gospel Sabbath. And the evangelical SDA’s failed to figure it out. Most of them now pastor Sunday based churches, thinking that there is no such thing as a 7th day Sabbath for the church.

There is a Gospel Sabbath for the church, and it is only on the 7th day. But it is also very different from the guilt ridden, punitive, OC Sabbath of the SDA’s.

Moreover, the discovery of this new Gospel Sabbath, becomes the foundation for the 4th Angels Message. Which is turn forces a completely new eschatological model for the church. Gone is the IJ, Tithe, Sunday Laws, and many other errors and myths from the SDA’s. But they were correct to preserve the paradigm of the Three Angels Messages and correct to teach that the 7th day Sabbath is part of the final Gospel proclamation in Rev 18.

So it is imperative that the Sabbath be properly understood. NOW. Not in another 20 years. Right NOW. This is what triggers a paradigm shift within the Adventist Apocalyptic.

Bob 2 said: First in this book review of Ratzlaff's - by Ford, he overlooks Lev 23 that lists the Sabbath with all Festivals:…He somehow missed the list of God's festivals:

Tom said: Bob, forget these minor points. Look at the big picture. Don’t try to win your case by an obsession with one or two verses.

Understand that we are discussing the emergence of a new doctrine for the church. This is a very big deal, a paradigm-shifting event that is forming in front of our eyes.

Who knew there was another Sabbath waiting to emerge so late in church history?

It is stunning. It is remarkable.

When the genuine Gospel, and the Gospel Sabbath are unleashed, there will be a religious revolution in the Christian world, as well as the start of a great division between those who submit to the Words of Jesus and those that don’t.

The Gospel Sabbath will humble the SDA’s first, before it goes on to embarrass and humiliate every other denomination as well, calling into question everything they have ever taught. How could they ALL get this wrong? Why should they be trusted now?

The genuine Gospel, combined with the reformed Sabbath of Jesus will give a black eye to every Pastor and Bible teacher, in every denomination, forcing the honest to repent of their wretched doctrinal confusion, arrogance, and errors.

The stunning truth about the Gospel Sabbath, which is very different from the SDA Sabbath, should unite Dr. Ford and Ratzlaff, and all those evangelicals that fled the Judaizing SDA’s.

A correct understanding of the Sabbath will give great energy to the dying Advent Movement, even as Traditional Adventism is rebuked, dismantled, and re-organized in the process.

This new Sabbath doctrine will be embraced by all that understand the Gospel, and thus the Advent Movement will move forward again, without the OC Sabbath and the IJ, and tithe, and the dishonest and deceiving White Estate, etc.

Let all try to understand the REFORMED Sabbath that is recorded in all four Gospels. It is a very important doctrine- for the Adventists first, and then for all others.

Tom Norris for Sabbath Reform in the church

Last edited by tom_norris (03-07-10 6:46 pm)

elaine · 03-07-10 7:34 pm

Why worry about a future tribulation when millions are currently experincing it? People are not too concerned about future troubles ahead when they are mired in the multiple problems facing millions around the world. "Sufficient unto the day is the evil." Why worry about the inevitable?

Adventists for Tomorrow

Announcement

#1 02-26-10 3:14 pm

The Tribulation

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Re: The Tribulation

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Re: The Tribulation

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Re: The Tribulation

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Re: The Tribulation

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Re: The Tribulation

#19 03-04-10 8:56 pm

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Re: The Tribulation

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Re: The Tribulation

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Re: The Tribulation

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Re: The Tribulation

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