Adventists for Tomorrow

Our mission is to provide a free and open medium that will assist individuals in forming accurate, balanced, and thoughtful opinions regarding issues within and without the church.

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Due to a large increase in spam, I have frozen forum registration. If you are new to the site and want to register, e-mail me personally at vandolson@gmail.com. Thank you.

#1 05-16-09 10:27 am

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

David, I see that you are still intent on defending Traditional Adventism as if it were credible and true.  You are quoting Ellen White’s writings out of their historical setting so that you can attack Dr. Ford and his correct understanding of the Gospel and the Three Angels Messages.  This is not helpful. 

I can assure you that neither the IJ, nor a long list of other SDA doctrines, like tithe or Old Covenant food laws, can be defended.  Neither can Ellen White be given doctrinal authority as the modern SDA church has done.   So you need to repent, and apologize to Dr. Ford for your slanders.  Ellen White is not attacking Dr. Ford as you imagine.

In addition, let me make some quick historical observations before we make some further detailed comments.   

You said that the SDA’s never experienced such a “mass exodus” as what took place after Glacier View.  You said it was “something that NEVER happened before UNTIL this event with Dr. Ford.”  But you are wrong.  A great schism took place following the 1888 debates.  It was so bad that the Denomination almost collapsed and the church leaders were forced to retreat to Takoma Park at the turn of the 20th century, even as they lost the famous Battle Creek San to Kellogg.  This was the first great SDA schism.

The present crisis is the second great SDA schism.  It is a repeat of the old Battle Creek disaster that resulted from the infamous 1888 debates.  In the 20th century, Dr. Ford played the same reforming role of E. J. Waggoner as he denounced the false Gospel of Uriah Smith that was being promoted from the Review and the White Estate.  When Dr. Ford and the Gospel were repudiated in 1980, many correctly left the church.   Who can blame them?  But it was nothing new for SDA’s as you claim.   

Another point:   

Dr. Ford did not denounce the Sanctuary as you claimed.  Nor is Ellen White’s remark applicable to him as it was to Kellogg; who really didn’t care about the fundamental pillars.

Dr. Ford was the opposite of Dr. Kellogg in that Ford was DEFENDING the pillars and protecting the Fundamentals that Ellen White said could never changed.  This is why Ford denounced the popular teaching of Traditional Adventism about the IJ being the Judgment pillar in the 1st Angels Message.  He said it was not there and he is 100% correct.  It was NEVER there, and Ellen White agrees.  You, and the SDA leaders are on the wrong side of this debate.  The facts trump tradition.   

So stop embracing propaganda as if it were truth.  Dr. Ford is a great man that sacrificed his position in the church for truth.  He stood up for Ellen White and for the genuine doctrines that define and control SDA theology.  What a pity that the leaders were blind to the Gospel and to the historical development of the Three Angels Messages.   They have acted like the Jews in this matter.

Let me further clarify some key points. 

1. Hermeneutics

It is a mistake to think that Dr. Ford’s position about Ellen White’s authority is wrong or against the record of SDA history.  The White Estate is wrong to promote Ellen White as if she were a “prophet” who had doctrinal authority.  She never embraced such a position, and neither did James White, Bates, Andrews, or Uriah Smith.   So you need to direct your righteousness indignation to the White Estate, not to Dr. Ford who was telling the truth.

The assumption, -from the White Estate- that Ellen White has doctrinal authority is refuted by her own testimony, and that of the Pioneers, as well as the teaching of the NT, and the Reformers.   The dishonest and incompetent White Estate has ruined the Advent Movement with this fiction.  The only way to stop such self-destruction, is for all SDA’s to repudiate the false hermeneutic of the White Estate and repent for allowing themselves to be so horribly misled by their modern church leaders.

Dr. Ford is correct to say that Ellen White was NOT like an Old Testament Prophet.  He is also correct to say that she has zero doctrinal authority and that her writings are not like the Bible.  This was her position all along.  None of the SDA Pioneers ever thought she had any doctrinal authority, even though they freely admitted that she had Spiritual Gifts.   

So why do you refuse to listen to Ellen White?  Those that support her should follow her views, not take the opposite position.  She needs no such dishonest support.

I find it very strange that those who claim to support and defend Ellen White are actually refuting her views on this and many other points of doctrines.  One would think her supporters would honestly support her views.  But this is not the case whatsoever.  Which proves to all that the SDA’s are so confused and full of double-talk that no one should listen to anything they say.  The White Estate is an agent of fraud and deception.  They are the problem, and so too anyone that believes their version of SDA history.

Dr. Ford supports Ellen White Whites view of Hermeneutics.  He agrees with her 100%; while the White Estate took an opposing view, -in her name, and then went on to indoctrinate generations into believing a lie.

I repeat; Dr. Ford was telling the truth about SDA history and hermeneutics all along.  It was very wrong of the White Estate to have indoctrinated so many into believing that Ellen White has doctrinal authority-- when she never did. 

Here are some related links:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … e-true.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ipture.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … rophet.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … hite-5.htm

http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/message … 1235942076


2. The Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message

Another great mistake that all SDA’s make is to assume that the IJ is the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message.  All modern SDA’s have been taught, (indoctrinated), that the IJ represents fulfilled prophecy from Historic Adventism, and that Ellen White and the Pioneers supported this view.  But once again, the White Estate is acting as an agent of historical and prophetic fraud.  There was NEVER a time when Ellen White took this view.  In fact, no SDA Pioneer ever took this position that later became a litmus test for correct, 20th century, SDA orthodoxy.   

Dr. Ford is correct to point out truth.  The IJ was NEVER the Judgment Pillar in Rev 14: 7, nor did the Pioneers ever take such an absurd and impossible position at any time.   This point alone, overturns Traditional Adventism, and proves that the Takoma Park apologists had little regard for historical facts or correct prophecy.  It also proves that Glacier View was a sham, and that no SDA can trust what the White Estate and the Review have been teaching for generations.

The only Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message is the Second Coming.  Period.  Anyone that claims it to be the IJ is refuting Ellen White and all the Pioneers.  They are not SDA’s, but pretenders.

The prophecy of the first angel's message, brought to view in Revelation 14, found its fulfillment in the advent movement of 1840-44." --Ellen White, SR 356.1 

"In preaching the doctrine of the Second Advent, William Miller and his associates had labored with the sole purpose of arousing men to a preparation for the judgment." The Great Controversy, page 375, par. 1, Chapter Title: A Warning Rejected.

Here the term "Judgment" is only a reference to the Second Coming, not the IJ. Miller preached that men and women should prepare to meet God in the Judgment Day, which was the Second Coming. The IJ was NEVER a part of this foundational Advent message that has BEEN FULFILLED as part of the 1st Angels Message. 

"Miller and his associates fulfilled prophecy and gave a message which Inspiration had foretold should be given to the world, but which they could not have given had they fully understood the prophecies pointing out their disappointment, and presenting another message to be preached to all nations before the Lord should come. The first and second angel's messages were given at the right time and accomplished the work which God designed to accomplish by them."  GC.405.

So even though Miller was wrong about the date of the Second Advent, as well as many other things, he was correct about the doctrine of the Judgment in Prophecy.  Thus, new eschatology was introduced into 19th century Protestant theology--the 1st Angels Message, and the Advent Movement was born.

Unfortunately, those in Takoma Park scrambled this Prophetic history into myth as they inserted Uriah Smith's false Gospel and his legalistic IJ back into the 1st Angels Message. Thus the modern SDA church has been following a false and counterfeit eschatology that has no sanction from the Pioneers, much less from the Apostles or Reformers. Which means that Traditional, Takoma Park Adventism, is based on Prophetic Fraud and the repudiation of Ellen White and Historic Adventism.   

No wonder the SDA’s make little sense to the world or themselves?  No wonder they are divided, polarized, and self-destructing?  Their leaders have led them into false paths of myth and fraud that if not repudiated will destroy the Advent Movement.

As a lifelong SDA, I admit that it does sound strange to say that the IJ is NOT a part of the 1st Angels message; but this is the truth of the matter. That is what the record clearly shows. The fact that it stuns the church and seems impossible is beside the point. And the fact that the leaders have deceived generations of SDA's about Ellen White's theology is also beside the point. The church must follow truth as it unfolds right now.  Great mistakes have been made, but there is no reason to compound them and let them continue to destroy the Advent Movement when the solution has been found. 

All SDA's need to repudiate Arthur White's version of Historic Adventism, which features Uriah Smith's false Gospel and a very legalistic Judgment. All must embrace the correct eschatology about the 1st Angels Message, which is the only theological foundation for the Three Angels Messages. Those who cling to the White Estate’s version, place themselves in the group that "attempts to undermine the pillars of our faith."  These are the real enemies of Ellen White. 

"Let no one presume to move a pin or a foundation stone from the structure. Those who attempt to undermine the pillars of our faith are among those of whom the Bible says that 'in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.'" Letter 87, 1905, pp. 2, 3; To Elder and Mrs. S. N. Haskell, February 25, 1905.

Ellen White was clear that the historic Pillars from the Advent Movement could not be changed, much less moved all over the place.  But this is exactly what the SDA leaders in Takoma Park did. They betrayed Ellen White and the Advent Movement, and when Dr. Ford protested their great error, they exiled him for telling the truth.  Listen to Ellen White make it clear that the historical definition of the 1st Angels Messages cannot be changed.  This is also what Dr. Ford was saying.  But who was listening?  Not many.

"In like manner those who have had no experience in the first and second angels'; messages must receive them from others who had an experience and followed down through the messages."

"As Jesus was rejected, so I saw that these messages have been rejected. And as the disciples declared that there is salvation in no other name under heaven, given among men, so also should the servants of God faithfully and fearlessly warn those who embrace but a part of the truths connected with the third message, that they must gladly receive all the messages as God has given them, or have no part in the matter."

Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 188, 189, Chapter Title: Spiritual Gifts. 1858. 

Do you understand what Ellen White is saying?  Do you understand that she would never allow anyone to change the original Judgment Pillar of the Second Coming into the IJ?  She condemns any that have done this, even as she would applaud Dr. Ford for getting it right and telling the truth.  He was the man that stood “firm” and defended the “established faith” of the Advent Movement, while the leaders embraced great error and fraud.

"I saw a company who stood well guarded and firm, giving no countenance to those who would unsettle the established faith of the body. God looked upon them with approbation. I was shown three steps-- the first, second, and third angels messages."

“Said my accompanying angel, ‘Woe to him who shall move a block or stir a pin of these messages. The true understanding of these messages is of vital importance.’” 

Early Writings of Ellen G. White, 1858, also known as: Spiritual Gifts; and The Great Controversy, page 158, Chapter Title: A Firm Platform.

This popular idea that the IJ is located in the 1st Angels message is an absurd and impossible hoax. It is pure myth, as well as historical and theological fraud.  Dr. Ford understood this point and thus he refused to fall ion line as the leaders demanded.  He understood that Traditional Adventism was wrong, even when most all thought he was in error. Today, in hindsight, we know that this supposedly sacred and well-promoted position about the IJ being the foundation of the Three Angels messages is a theological sham for all to see.

In fact, when Ellen White wrote about the Fundamental Pillars that define Seventh-day Adventist theology, her reply omitted the IJ.  Why?  Because the IJ was never a “pillar” in SDA eschatology.  Never.

IJ NOT A Pillar

All SDA’s need to understand that the IJ was NEVER a "Pillar" in any of the Three Angels Messages. And Ellen White never said otherwise. Listen to her speak about the Pillars: 

"Let the truths that are the foundation of our faith be kept before the people. … We are now to understand what the pillars of our faith are,--the truths that have made us as a people what we are, leading us on step by step."

Review and Herald, May 25, 1905. 

The “truth” is a reference to the Three Angels messages, not to the IJ. When the Sanctuary doctrine is mentioned, it is only in connection with the 5th pillar, which is the original, 1844 doctrine about the "Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary."  There is no pillar identified as the IJ.  Nor does the IJ make the list of fundamental doctrines. 

Listen to Ellen White describe the Pillars: 

"The passing of the time in 1844 was a period of great events, opening to our astonished eyes the cleansing of the sanctuary transpiring in heaven, and having decided relation to God's people upon the earth, [also] the first and second angels messages and the third, unfurling the banner on which was inscribed, The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

One of the landmarks under this message was the temple of God, seen by His truth-loving people in heaven, and the ark containing the law of God. The light of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment flashed its strong rays in the pathway of the transgress ors of God's law. 

The non-immortality of the wicked is an old landmark. 

I can call to mind nothing more that can come under the head of the old landmarks. All this cry about changing the old landmarks is all imaginary."

Counsels to Writers and Editors, page 30, paragraph 2 Chapter Title: The Foundations, Pillars, and Landmarks 

Where is the IJ in Ellen White’s list of Landmark doctrines?  She fails to mention it in connection with the 1st Angels message, much less at all! 

Moreover, when discussing the Sanctuary doctrine, she is careful to use the proper 1844 term called the Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary, which is not the same doctrine as the IJ, which would be developed later.   She knew what she was saying, but few Adventists today have any idea about Ellen White’s view of the Pillars.   

The White Estate has indoctrinated millions into embracing a false view of Ellen White and the Fundamentals.  But such error will not change the facts or silence the real voice of Ellen White or her genuine supporters—like Dr. Ford or Tom Norris.  Ellen White has something to say to SDA’s, and it is very different from what they think.  She is not attacking Dr. Ford in these statements you quoted, but she is condemning the White Estate and all those that support Traditional Adventism.

The past fifty years have not dimmed one jot or principle of our faith as we received the great and wonderful evidences that were made certain to us in 1844, after the passing of the time. 

The languishing souls are to be confirmed and quickened according to His Word. . . . Not a word is changed or denied.

That which the Holy Spirit testified to as truth after the passing of the time, in our great disappointment, is the solid foundation of truth. The pillars of truth were revealed, and we accepted the foundation principles that have made us what we are--Seventh-day Adventists, keeping the commandments of God and having the faith of Jesus. 

Ellen White, UL 352.4 

The Pillars are never supposed to change for SDA’s.  Dr. Ford understood this point, and thus he championed the genuine and historic version of the Three Angels Messages.  Not the one that that the Takoma Park apologists later manufactured in the basement of the White Estate.  He correctly understood they were promoting fraud.   

Thus, Dr. Ford correctly defended Ellen White’s view of the Pillars; -when most all thought he was attacking her and the fundamentals of Adventism.  But he was innocent of this charge, while the White Estate and the Review were guilty of such heresy.  They were, and still are, the theological enemies of Ellen White, even as they pretended to be her friend and defender.

The IJ has never been a pillar, much less a doctrine in the 1st Angels Message.  It is an imposter, foisted on the church by incompetent and legalistic wolves that can no longer defend their fraud.  All SDA’s should demand that the White Estate repent and correct the record.  All SDA’s should stand up and protest what their incompetent and corrupt leaders have done and demand Repentance and Reform!

Only the Protestant Gospel and the pre-millennial Second Coming as the Day of Judgment are the twin Pillars of the Advent Movement.   These mighty doctrinal pillars, from the 1st Angels Message, cannot ever be changed.  To do so is to destroy the Advent Movement.  Dr. Ford understood this truth and so too will all SDA’s one day.

See also:

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1013659183

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1166507859

http://www.atomorrow.com/cgi-bin/discus … &page=1407

http://www.atomorrow.com/cgi-bin/discus … &page=1425

http://www.atomorrow.com/cgi-bin/discus … &page=6053

http://www.atomorrow.com/cgi-bin/discus … &page=6088

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … #POST42333


3.  The Sanctuary Doctrine 

Although there is no doctrine of a Heavenly Sanctuary in either the 1st or 2nd Angels Messages, there was such a doctrine discovered right after the Great Disappointment of 1844.   Thus there is a sanctuary pillar called, The Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary” which stands as pillar # 5, in association with the 3rd Angels Message.   

Moreover, this Sanctuary Pillar is not the IJ, but the simple understanding that Jesus is our high Priest in heaven.  Thus the sanctuary to be cleansed in Dan 8:14 was not the earth, as Miller taught, but rather, it pointed to some short, pre-Advent activity in heaven, just prior to the Second Coming.  This was not the IJ, nor would such a doctrine be invented by SDA’s until just before the American Civil War.

http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=3871

http://www.adventistheritage.org/article.php?id=27

So there is a true Sanctuary doctrine within the Three Angels Messages, which Dr. Ford does not deny.  He only made the obvious correction that Christ had been our High Priest since his ascension in the first century.  Christ did not wait until 1844 to become our High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary.   

Thirteen years after the “pillar” of the Heavenly Sanctuary was discovered, the original SDA doctrine of the Heavenly Sanctuary started to morph into another doctrine that would later became the IJ.  By the 1870’s, Uriah Smith would articulate the IJ and codify it in the largest book ever written on this dubious doctrine.  But even so, Uriah Smith was careful not to claim that the IJ was a doctrine from the 1st Angels Message.  He knew it was never there, so even the great legalist Uriah Smith would repudiate the eschatology of Takoma Park Adventism.  He never thought the IJ was part of the 1st Angels Message, even though he was a champion of the IJ.  But the SDA leaders cared little for the facts of history.   

I suggest that you read Dr. Ford’s detailed and comprehensive Interview and become acquainted with his positions.  Don’t listen to rumor and gossip; go and get the facts.  Read the questions and understand his answers.  Educate yourself about the issues and try to refrain from embracing worthless propaganda.

http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … /part1.cfm


When Dr. Ford challenged the validity of the IJ in the late 1970’s, most SDA’s assumed that he was challenging the original Sanctuary doctrine, which everyone also thought was part of the 1st Angels Message.   Of course everyone also thought Ellen White shared these views, because this is what the church leaders were teaching.  But none of these assumptions were true.   

First, there is no Sanctuary doctrine in the 1st Angels Message.  And Ellen White never said otherwise.  Thus, the prophetic basis for Traditional, Takoma Park Adventism has turned out to be a total and complete myth.

Second, the IJ is not the original Sanctuary doctrine; it was added on to the original Sanctuary pillar, the 5th that was discovered on Oct 23, 1844.   This ADDITIONAL doctrine has since turned out to be legalistic and very incorrect.  But the original doctrine, with a minor date change, still stands, and Dr. Ford never said otherwise.

Third; Ellen White does not endorse the IJ as a pillar anywhere in the Three Angels Messages, much less in the 1st Angels Message as ALL SDA’s are taught.  The White Estate and the Review have been very incompetent and dishonest to claim otherwise, and this massive fraud needs to be exposed and corrected.

Let all SDA’s pay attention:  Dr. Ford was correctly defending the true Judgment Pillar from historic Adventism, which is the Second Coming.  There was no Heavenly Sanctuary doctrine in the 1st Angels Message to remove, so how could he have been guilty of such supposed heresy?  Dr. Ford was taking the exact same position as Ellen White and all others in Battle Creek concerning the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message.   It was only and forever, the Second Coming.  It was NEVER the IJ, nor could it ever be the IJ.   

Dr. Ford was correctly defending Ellen White’s view of the Three Angels Messages.  Those that judged him at Glacier View were not.  Which means that the leaders were guilty of confusing the church about “these grand messages, so that the remnant people of God shall not clearly discern their import, time, and place.”

"The first, second, and third angels messages are all linked together.  The evidences of the abiding, ever-living truth of these grand messages, that mean so much to us, that have awakened such intense opposition from the religious world, cannot be extinguished."

"Satan is constantly seeking to cast his hellish shadow about these messages, so that the remnant people of God shall not clearly discern their import, their time, and place; but they live, and are to exert their power upon our religious experience while time shall last."

The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, page 926, paragraph 3.

While the leaders teach that Dr. Ford is a great enemy of Ellen White, she would actually be very grateful to Dr. Ford, and so too would James White.  Although few comprehend the significance of Dr. Ford’s contribution to SDA theology, that will not always be the case.  The Advent Movement owes a great debt to Dr. Ford.  He is the man that stood up for the true Fundamentals of SDA theology.  He deserves the credit for saving the Three Angels Messages so that this unique prophetic paradigm can continue to unfold and complete it’s prophetic mission to prepare the church for the Second Coming and the end of the world.

"The proclamation of the first, second, and third angels messages has been located by the Word of Inspiration. Not a peg or pin is to be removed. No human authority has any more right to change the location of these messages than to substitute the New Testament for the Old.  The Old Testament is the gospel in figures and symbols.  The New Testament is the substance.  One is as essential as the other."   

Ellen White, Ms 32, 1896, p. 1. Testimony Concerning the Views of Prophecy Held by Brother John Bell, 1896.

Not even after the IJ had been invented did the SDA’s think there could be a change in the original Judgment pillar that is so foundational for all SDA theology.  Only after Ellen White died, did the SDA’s in Takoma Park take such a false and fatal position, --which has destroyed the church.

So I say again, Dr. Ford was supporting the original view of the Three Angels Messages all along.  He was being true to Ellen White’s repeated warning that these historic messages, and the primary doctrines that they contain, cannot be removed or changed around.  The White Estate is guilty for promoting historical fraud and doctrinal deceit, -not Dr. Ford.  The SDA leaders are guilty of removing the foundational Pillars that define and empower the Advent Movement.  They are the ones that have horribly misunderstood Ellen White’s view of the Judgment and the Sanctuary doctrine, not Dr. Ford.   

Stunning, but true!

4. The Pre-Advent Judgment

Today, we know that the IJ is a mistaken and false doctrine.  It is not a Fundamental Pillar located in the 1st Angels Message, as all modern SDA’s have been taught. Nor does it represent the true Sanctuary doctrine, which was discovered on Oct 23, 1844, and is only associated with the 3rd Angels Message.   

Moreover, the Bible does not teach the IJ anywhere, and thus the SDA’s have allowed false doctrine to destroy their eschatology, greatly confusing those that support the Advent Movement.  This prophetic error has created needless schism that is still going strong today.  It must be stopped and the truth told.

While the IJ started out as an innocent error, it later became the topic of great debate in the late 20th century, tearing the Advent Movement apart during the 1980’s and rendering the church confused and disoriented, suffering under a corrupt and dishonest administration.   

The only hope for SDA’s is to repent for Glacier View and return to the original version of the Three Angels Messages.   If they ever want to understand the Gospel correctly, and have any doctrinal credibility, this is what they must do.  If they want to play any role in the last day events, they must repent, apologizing to Dr. Ford, who was telling the truth all along.   

However, there is a reason why SDA’s developed the IJ in the first place.  It was to deal with the concept of a pre-advent Judgment.  But if the IJ, which is based on Dan 8:14, is not the PAJ, what is?  What is the correct understanding of the PAJ for the Advent Movement in the 21st century?  The answer is surprising.

Today, there is a true doctrine of the Pre-Advent Judgment, just as there is a true version of the Three Angels Messages.  It is not the IJ, but the Laodicean Message.  Here is new truth for the Adventist Community to embrace.  But only if they repent of their false Gospel and false Judgment.  Truth is only available to those that repent and repudiate the myth and confusion of Traditional Adventism.  Those who refuse will not understand.

Here is a paper about that explains the doctrinal development of the IJ as the pre-Advent Judgment.  It also explains the correct view of the Pre-Advent Judgment, which must replace the Traditional view.  Let all SDA’s follow the path of truth, and move forward.

Understanding the Pre- Advent Judgment:

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1154462379

5.   Ellen Whites Warnings Fulfilled

Today, the Adventist Community greatly misunderstands Ellen White and the fundamentals of SDA theology.  Why?  Because the White Estate has been incompetent and dishonest for generations.   Even though Arthur White has been gone for 20 years, the leaders still refuse to admit what he has done and correct the record.

The White Estate has so scrambled Ellen White’s true views that it is easy to think Ellen White is saying things she is not.  In fact, it was the White Estates position that Dr. Ford was “departing from the faith” because of his sanctuary position.  But the leaders had the wrong interpretation of both the Gospel and Judgment pillars in the 1st Angels Message, as well as the original Sanctuary Pillar.   They were certain they were correct, but they were not. 

So things are not what they seem.  Dr. Ford was correctly supporting Ellen White’s views, while the White Estate was misrepresenting them.  Dr. Ford was telling the truth, while the church leaders were promoting myth and fraud, even as they were suppressing thousands of Ellen White’s writings.  With these facts in mind, lets take a look at one of Ellen White’s quotes that you have taken out of context:

"In the future, deception of every kind is to arise, and we want solid ground for our feet. We want solid pillars for the building. Not one pin is to be removed from that which the Lord has established. THE ENEMY WILL BRING IN FALSE THEORIES, SUCH AS THE DOCTRINE THAT THERE IS NO SANCTUARY. THIS IS ONE OF THE POINTS ON WHICH THERE WILL BE A DEPARTING FROM THE FAITH. Where shall we find safety unless it be in the truths that the Lord has been giving for the last fifty years?"  Ev 224

While many think that she is speaking about Dr. Ford and his views, she is not.  How do I know this?  Because Dr. Ford defended the original and genuine version of the Three Angels Messages.  He did not remove any “pillars” or interject any “false theories” into the Adventist Apocalyptic.  Nor did he deny that Jesus is our High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary.

But guess what?  The White Estate and the Review ARE the guilty parties. They are the ones that crafted and promoted a number of false theories, even as they also repudiated Ellen Whites view of hermeneutics and the Gospel.  Thus the White Estate was wrong to claim that the IJ was the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message or that Sanctification is salvific.

It is the greatest of all “false theories” to claim that Ellen White supports the legalistic Gospel of the White Estate and the IJ as the Judgment pillar in the 1st Angels Message.  These are both such false and outrageous positions that the White Estate should be ashamed of themselves.  Ellen White embraced the correct Gospel after and 1888 and she never said that the IJ was a pillar in the Three Angels Messages. 

The only Judgment pillar is the Second Coming, which is the # 2 Pillar.  The Sanctuary Pillar, which is not the IJ, stands in the # 5 position, in association with the 3rd Angels Message. Those who teach that the IJ stands the #2 position have “departed from the Adventist Faith,” as well as the Gospel, which is the #1 Pillar, and the foundation for all SDA eschatology and doctrine.

So guess what?  The false theology coming out of the White Estate and the Review fulfills Ellen White’s prediction.  This is the Omega of Apostasy that she saw would come into the church.  It was not Dr. Ford at all, but the leaders who had gone bad and become the Omega of deception.

Be not deceived; many will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. We have now before us the alpha of this danger. The omega will be of a most startling nature.   Beware, signed EGW.  {1SM 197.4}

Traditional Adventism features a false Gospel and an absurd and impossible Judgment.  Such interpretations represent a major “departure of the faith” that Ellen White would condemn.  Dr. Ford never made such an error.  It is the White Estate that has repudiated Ellen White’s historic version of the Three Angels Messages, not Dr. Ford.  And to make matters worse, the church now teaches Pluralism, a doctrine that Ellen White would never support.

The White Estate has played the part of Judas.  They have betrayed not only Ellen White, but also the Advent Movement.  They have repudiated the very fundamentals that define and empower Adventism.  Thus, the SDA’s have been destroyed from within.  Their own leaders have so misunderstood the Gospel and the Three Angels Messages that Adventism is self-destructing as a result.  Shame on the White Estate and all those that have allowed themselves to be deceived by this dishonest and scheming church institution.   

Thank Heaven that Dr. Ford refused to be controlled and used by the leaders.  Thank God that someone in the 20th century understood Adventism correctly, even as he has preserved the Adventist Apocalyptic for future generations. 

Listen to Ellen White speak about this “sad deception:”

What greater deception can come upon human minds than a confidence that they are right when they are all wrong! 

The message of the True Witness finds the people of God in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception. They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God. While those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual condition, the message of the True Witness breaks their security by the startling denunciation of their true condition of spiritual blindness, poverty, and wretchedness. The testimony, so cutting and severe, cannot be a mistake, for it is the True Witness who speaks, and His testimony must be correct. 

Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 3, p. 252-253.

Traditional, Takoma Park Adventism is a false delusion.  While many passionately defend and promote it, certain they have the truth, this is hardly the case.  They have been badly deceived.

Here are a number of genuine predictions from Ellen White that have come true, or are about to come true.  They are very different from what you imagine.

1.  Ellen White will be denounced as a fraud and misunderstood.

2. Great error will be found in SDA theology, as well as new truth.

3. The Laodicean Message will energize the church and cause the shaking

4.  Many will fall away as a result of truth of this final debate within Adventism.   

5.  SDA’s are like the unbelieving, 1st century Jews. 

6.  The SDA church will pay a heavy price if they forget their historical development.   

7.  The doctrine of Christ’s Righteousness will become prominent in SDA theology at the end of time.

I could make a longer list of the real predictions that Ellen White has made, and they seem very different from your list, which was used to attack Dr. Ford and his Protestant Gospel.  But Ellen White was a champion of JBF, while Traditional Adventism scorns this critical doctrine.

All SDA’s need to understand that their leaders have betrayed the Gospel and the Advent Cause.  Just like the Jewish leaders did to their people.

"The Lord has shown me that men in responsible positions are standing directly in the way of His work, because they think the work must be done and the blessing must come in a certain way, and THEY WILL NOT RECOGNIZE THAT WHICH COMES IN ANY OTHER WAY... God has His appointed channels of light, but these are not necessarily the minds of any particular set of men."  5T 726.

"What is the message to be given at this time? It is the third angel’s message. But that light which is to fill the whole earth with its glory has been despised by some who claim to believe the present truth. Be careful how you treat it. Take off the shoes from off your feet; for you are on holy ground. Beware how you indulge the attributes of Satan, and pour contempt upon the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. I know not but some have even now gone too far to return and to repent."   TM 89, 90.

"The danger has been presented to me again and again of entertaining, as a people, false ideas of justification by faith. I have been shown for years that Satan would work in a special manner to confuse the mind on this point. The law of God has been largely dwelt upon and has been presented to congregations, almost as destitute of the knowledge of Jesus Christ and His relation to the law as was the offering of Cain."

"I have been shown that many have been kept from the faith because of the mixed, confused ideas of salvation, because the ministers have worked in a wrong manner to reach hearts. The point that has been urged upon my mind for years is the imputed righteousness of Christ."

"I have wondered that this matter was not made the subject of discourses in our churches throughout the land, when the matter has been kept so constantly urged upon me and I have made it the subject of nearly every discourse and talk that I have given to the people."  FW 18; 1890.

Shame on the SDA leaders for rejecting the Gospel and deceiving the people about most everything.  Ellen White does not agree with Traditional Adventism. Listen to her additional comments.  Those that attack Dr. Ford are acting like the Jews.   But yet, they don’t even know what they are attacking, even as they are ready to embrace gossip and slander to make their case.

"It is a grievous sin in the sight of God for men to place themselves between the people and the message that He would have come to them as some of our brethren are now doing. There are some who, like the Jews, are doing their utmost to make the message of God of none effect. Let these doubting, questioning ones either receive the light of the truth for this time, or let them stand out of the way, that others may have an opportunity of receiving the truth, that the wrath of God may not come on them because they are bodies of darkness, when He desires them to be bodies of light."

"Those who live just prior to the second appearing of Christ may expect a large measure of His Holy Spirit. If God has ever spoken by me, some of our leading men are going over the same ground of refusing the message of mercy as the Jews did in the time of Christ. If they turn away from the light, they will fail to meet the high and holy claims of God for this important time. They will fail to fulfill the sacred responsibility that He has entrusted to them.

"The character and prospects of the people of God are similar to those of the Jews, who could not enter in because of unbelief. Self-sufficiency, self-importance, and spiritual pride separated them from God, and He hid His face from them. . . .

"The Jews despised the good that was proffered them in the time of Christ, and after the long forbearance of God, the things that were for their peace were hidden from their eyes—that which, if received, would have been to them their greatest blessing became their stumbling block. Thus it is today among us. . . . "

"The light of truth is shining upon us as clearly as it shone upon the Jewish people, but the hearts of men are as hard and unimpressible as in the days of Christ, because they know not what they oppose. Many who claim to be standing in the light are in darkness, and know it not. They have so enshrouded themselves in unbelief that they call darkness light, and light darkness."

"They are ignorant of that which they condemn and oppose. But their ignorance is not such as God will excuse, for He has given them light, and they reject it. They have before them the example of the past, but they will not be warned, and unbelief is enclosing them in impenetrable darkness. They refuse to accept the testimonies they ought to believe, and are ready to accept tidbits of gossip and testimonies of men, showing their credulousness and readiness to believe that which they want to believe." 

Manuscript Releases Volume Eleven, pp. 286-287.

Let all SDA’s wake up and understand their dangerous situation.

"I entreat you, brethren, be not like the Pharisees, who were blinded with spiritual pride, self-righteousness, and self-sufficiency, and who because of this were forsaken of God. For years I have been receiving instructions and warnings that this was the danger to our people."

The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, p. 166.

The SDA church is self-destructing in front of our eyes because the leaders have not been honest about Ellen White or the Three Angels Messages.  They are paying the price for rejecting the Gospel. 

6.  New Eschatology Needed

Today, all Three Angels Messages are fulfilled and completed.  The 3rd Angels Message ended in disappointment, in the late 20th century, just like all the others.  But regardless, the Advent Movement must go on to complete its mission to prepare the church for the Second Coming.

Consequently, there is a 4th and final Advent Message to be understood and proclaimed.  But this cannot happen so long as SDA’s refuse to confess their many false doctrines and embrace Gospel Reform.  The SDA’s must repent and correct the record; even they must embrace the true version of the Three Angels Messages and then update their tired eschatology.  Then they must work to develop the final Gospel Message that will precede the great time of trouble and the Second Coming.   

"God will give additional light, and old truths will be recovered and replaced in the framework of truth; and wherever the laborers go, they will triumph... every ray of light received is to be communicated to others." RH Extra, Dec. 23, 1890.

"We must hold fast to the truths which we have already received; we must not look with suspicion upon any new light that God may send." GW 310.

"No matter by whom light is sent, we should open our hearts to receive it with the meekness of Christ. Many do not do this." GW 301.

"Even Seventh-day Adventists are in danger of closing their eyes to truth as it is in Jesus, BECAUSE IT CONTRADICTS SOMETHING WHICH THEY HAVE TAKEN FOR GRANTED AS TRUTH, BUT WHICH THE HOLY SPIRIT TEACHES IS NOT TRUTH. TM 70, 71.

The SDA’s must exchange their stale and legalistic eschatology for a credible, contemporary, and Gospel based version.   What many viewed as “truth” in the 19th century cannot be in the 21st.   In fact, eschatology means “last things” not 19th century ideas.  Thus there is much new truth waiting for the SDA’s to uncover and embrace, even as there are many errors that must be repudiated.

"The question has been asked me, 'Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?' I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth. WE HAVE ONLY THE GLIMMERINGS OF THE RAYS OF THE LIGHT THAT IS YET TO COME TO US."

[Selected Messages Book I, p. 401 - June 3, 1890]

The 4th Angels Message will represent the best of Protestant theology, including the correct eschatological paradigm of the Three Angels Messages.  It will contain contemporary eschatology that is credible and defensible, even as it features the Gospel of Paul, Luther, and Ford.  Thus the Advent Movement will move forward and fulfill Rev 18, and achieve the dreams of the Pioneers.

The Three Angels Messages is the true path for the Laodicean church.  Which is why it is imperative that the historical development of the Three Angels Messages must be honestly understood by all.  At this point, thanks to the corrupt White Estate, few SDA’s have any idea what Ellen White and the Pioneers were really teaching.   

Conclusion

Today, all those that claim the IJ is a pillar from Historic Adventism are enemies of Ellen White and the Advent Movement.  And so too those that think Sanctification is part of the Gospel.  Every SDA preacher and apologist is full of much error and false doctrine and it is absurd to think otherwise.

All those SDA’s that think the IJ is a wonderful doctrine that defines SDA theology and mission have misunderstood the history, theology, and purpose of the Three Angels Messages.  The leaders made a great mistake to exile Dr. Ford for telling the truth.  He was correctly defending the genuine pillars that had the full endorsement of Ellen White.   The SDA leaders are incompetent and corrupt.  They teach legions of false doctrines.

Matt. 15:7 “You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:

Matt. 15:8 ‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, 

BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.

Matt. 15:9 ‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’”

Ellen White understood this point.  Which is why she said the following:

"We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. As long as we hold to our own ideas and opinions with determined persistency, we cannot have the unity for which Christ prayed." 

Ellen White, Counsels to Writers and Editors, pages 33-42.

It is time for the SDA’s to return to the “solid ground” of the Gospel and the Three Angels Messages.  It is time for the original and genuine eschatology of the 1st Angels Message to replace the “false theories” of the White Estate and Review.  They have made a mockery out of the Adventist Movement, even as they have horribly misled the Adventist Community and taken advantage of their trust.

It is time for everyone to listen to Ellen White and understand what she is really saying.  It is very different from what the What Estate has claimed all these years.

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for All Experts.com and Adventist Reform

Offline

#2 05-16-09 5:53 pm

don
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,121

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

Hello Tom, it has been some time since we visited on this forum. I have a few questions.

You have linked the 1888 debate with the Kellogg crisis. Can you show the historical reasons why you do so?

How do the crisis following the 1888 GC and the Kellogg crisis relate to each other?


It was so bad that the Denomination almost collapsed and the church leaders were forced to retreat to Takoma Park at the turn of the 20th century, even as they lost the famous Battle Creek San to Kellogg. This was the first great SDA schism.


What evidence can you offer for this statement?

Did the membership decrease; any statistical evidence?

Did donations start to dry up, or quit coming in the same?

As in the Ford crisis, many ministers quit the church. Is there evidence of a similar withdrawal of clergy during the Kellogg crisis? the 1888 crisis?

"the church leaders were forced to retreat to Takoma Park."

What evidence can you offer that the move to Takoma Park should be viewed as a forced retreat?

Didn't Ellen White warn that Battle Creek was getting too concentrated and that the work should move? 

Battle Creek College moved to Berrien Springs. Do you consider that part of the retreat, as well?

So far, in my own studies, I have found no evidence of a "forced retreat."

Hope you can help.

Don

Offline

#3 05-17-09 2:08 am

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

I didn't read all your piece Tom, but as I understand it Des Ford is a Sabbatarian, which in my  opinion, is anti-Gospel, or preaching another Gospel. 

Gal 3:10-14 from Strong's:

Nomos law

anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

of any law whatsoever

a law or rule producing a state approved of God 

by the observance of which is approved of God

a precept or injunction

the rule of action prescribed by reason

of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents

the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love

the name of the more important part of the Pentateuch, is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT


This is not talking just of the ceremonial law but the whole law or Pentatucah, which includes the Decalogue. In anticipation of the argument but what of the 9 out of 10 that appear to be repeated in the NT.

If I might use an analogy, when you go to buy a new car, it will have:

1. Four tires

2. A steering wheel

3. Seats to set on

4. A motor

5. Crusie control

8. Struts

6. Brakes

7. Doors

8. Windows

9. Truck

10. A spare tire

BUT, It is certainly new with a new contract, and tenets to that new contract, different maybe in significant parts but maybe duplicating up to 9 our of the 10  tenets of the other contract, do you long for that 10th or look to what you are obligated to follow in the new contract, do you ponder and fret about a 10th clause that is left out while 9 of 10 are the same, NO, you are happy about the newness of your car and its new features.

Message edited Bob_2 on May 17, 2009

Offline

#4 05-22-09 6:08 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

Don, I can always depend on you to miss the point.   

Here was a detailed post about the theology of the Sanctuary doctrine and the proper definition of the Three Angels Messages, and the PAJ.  Why did you ignore all this, as if it did not exist?

Answer: Because you are a Traditional Adventist that embraces the IJ as a pillar in the 1st Angels Message.  You think the IJ is the PAJ.  So you look the other way and pretend you are correct, when you are not.

What was posted proves your position wrong.  So why ignore it?  Why no rebuttal or defense of the IJ?  Did you think no one would notice?

Or does your lack of protest mean that you are beginning to understand how wrong the White Estate has been all these years?  Are you nearing the place where you can confess that you have been wrong about Adventism all your life?  Wrong about Ellen White and the Three Angels Messages as well as 1888 and Glacier View?

Are you ready to apologize to Dr. Ford and look at Ellen White, and church history, in a new and very different light?  Are you ready to condemn the White Estate for what they have done?

Also, what did you think of Ellen White’s statement about SDA’s being theologically blind?

“What greater deception can come upon human minds than a confidence that they are right when they are all wrong!”   

I think this is a profound assessment of the SDA’s by Ellen White.  It not only applies to Uriah Smith and company, (which is its historical context), but it also applies to all those that refute Dr. Ford’s theology.  All those that supported Uriah Smiths view of TA in Battle Creek were wrong, and so too those that followed the White Estate’s similar theology in Takoma Park.  But of course they all thought they were correct.

Today, the SDA’s, now headquartered in Silver Spring, are still “deceived” and “all wrong.”  They live is a delusional world of denial and propaganda, even as they boldly claim to be free from all error and false doctrine.   

Ellen White has a great controversy with SDA’s.  She does not support them as they think.  In fact, she condemns them.  Ellen White supports Dr. Ford’s view of the Gospel and the Three Angels Messages.  No one should think otherwise.  Ellen White would never support Glacier View theology.

Don said; Hello Tom, it has been some time since we visited on this forum. I have a few questions. 

Nice to hear from you Don.  Are you ready to consider that TA is a fraud?  Do you realize that the White Estate has misled and deceived you about many things?  Are you ready to repent and demand that the White Estate correct the record?

Just asking?

Don said:  You have linked the 1888 debate with the Kellogg crisis. Can you show the historical reasons why you do so? 

The background and context for the 1890’s is the 1888 debates.  They had a powerful influence on the church, and were in fact the reason why the “Kellogg Crisis” occurred, even as they were the reason why the “Canright Crisis” occurred at the very start of these debates.   So from Canright to Kellogg, and on to Waggoner and Jones, the 1888 debates was the context behind every one of these defections.   

No wonder the church leaders in Takoma Park wanted to keep 1888 debate hidden and off limits.  This theology was so controversial and dangerous, that the less people knew about it the better.  So they hid the real story and taught everyone a fabrication.  After generations of this fraud, few people had any idea what happened in 1888, much less how Ellen White defined the Fundamentals.  The propaganda of TA had replaced the truth.

Consequently, when the scholars, like Dr. Ford tried to tell the truth, he was silenced, slandered, and exiled by the church leaders.   And here we all sit; watching the Advent Movement self-destruct in stupidity, false doctrine, and fraud.   

The present course is not sustainable.  The White Estate must be forced to tell the truth about Adventist history and Ellen White.  They cannot be allowed to carry on this farce any longer.

The 1890’s

After the 1888 debates were completed, - in 1890, there was no resolution whatsoever.  The unsettled outcome left the church fatally divided.  It would only be a matter of time before a great schism resulted. 

Luke 11:17 But He knew their thoughts and said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and a house divided against itself falls. 

The leaders seemed in denial about how confused the church had become following 1888.  Ellen White, however, seemed very aware that the church was way off course and that something awful was about to happen.  But she was out of the Country and this makes her perception even more impressive.  In fact, she feared that Battle Creek would fall under the Judgments of God for their many sins, and this is what seems to have taken place.

By 1891, both Ellen White and Waggoner had been exiled far away from Battle Creek.  This great error left others to try to make sense out of Adventism.  And many did just that as new views were being introduced to replace the old views that had come under challenge even from Ellen White.   

Faced with such confusion, Kellogg stepped in to broker a compromise and refocus the church on its mission.  But of course his view of SDA mission was very different from what Ellen White wanted.  This is what angered Ellen White.  She realized that he was prepared to abandon the Three Angels Messages and give up on eschatology and the Second Coming. 

His new idea about uniting the church around Health Reform and turning the Denomination into a humanitarian enterprise,-- devoid of eschatology-- horrified Ellen White, and she would not permit it.   

This is why, at the turn of the century, she advised the leaders to separate from Kellogg, and move the Denomination far away from Battle Creek, which had become a stronghold of Kellogg, who was essentially promoting pluralism in an effort to stop the division that was overwhelming the church.   

So the confusion caused by the 1888 debates created division, as well as a leadership vacuum that Kellogg and others tried to fill.  With so many new views clashing against the old views, something had to give; SDA theology lost its unity and credibility, and then its leaders.   

Although Canright was the first casualty from the “1888” debates many more would eventually follow.  In fact, many big names left the church a dozen or so years later--like Waggoner and Jones, not to mention Kellogg and his brother Will of Cornflake fame, and Ballenger, and Belden, and on and on.  Even Uriah Smith, the leader of the opposition, was terminated from the Review and repudiated by those that once supported him.  So it was a time of doctrinal chaos that ended up very badly.  Very much like what happened after Glacier View in 1980 and Walter Rea in 1982.

By 1900, Battle Creek was so doctrinally divided and dysfunctional that schism was inevitable.  What else could be expected with so much uncertainty about doctrine?  Consequently, the best and the brightest left the church, or were pushed out, as the Battle Creek Empire collapsed.  A religious civil war broke out between the various factions, even as Kellogg tried to take control of the church for his own goals. 

At the end of this decade, the theology of the Three Angels Messages was non-functional.  The legalistic eschatology that had united the denomination no longer made sense, and SDA theology collapsed.

Don asked:  How do the crisis following the 1888 GC and the Kellogg crisis relate to each other? 

Kellogg ignored the 1888 debates for a number of years before he realized how serious and divisive it had become.  So true to form, he jumped in to save the day.  But he was no theologian, nor did he pretend to be.  Rather, he was looking for practical solutions that would benefit his obsession with Health Reform.  He really had no passion about eschatology or the Gospel.  In fact, he actually tried to convince Ellen White that Health Reform was the primary meaning of the Three Angels Messages, but Ellen White knew better and rebuffed his self-serving interpretation.

With Ellen White exiled in 1891, the powerful Kellogg worked to influence those in Battle Creek to his point of view, which was very different from how Ellen White looked at things.   

Thus, during the last decade of the 19th century, the Battle Creek SDA’s were confused and divided over the law and the Gospel as well as eschatology.  Uriah Smiths views had been discredited, but not replaced or updated, so what were people to think?  Pluralism broke out naturally, as different views emerged about the Fundamentals, thus paving the way for the great schism just ahead.

Moreover, during this same time period, the church became corrupt and oppressive to the workers.  But it would all come to an end as public opinion of the SDA’s plummeted, and their great institutions were burned to the ground.

It was so bad that the Denomination almost collapsed and the church leaders were forced to retreat to Takoma Park at the turn of the 20th century, even as they lost the famous Battle Creek San to Kellogg. This was the first great SDA schism.   The denomination almost collapsed. 

Don asked:  What evidence can you offer for this statement?  Did the membership decrease (any statistical evidence)? Did donations start to dry up, or quit coming in the same? 

There are a number of historical accounts about this period.  You need to read them.   

Yes, the membership plummeted in Battle Creek as many famous SDA’s left the confused and legalistic church that could not resolve their doctrinal disputes.  Thus Waggoner, Kellogg, and Jones, just to name three, left the church.

Here is some of this discussion from JR’s site:

Someone posted up an account of some 1907 Battle Creek expulsions in the Cass City Chronicle of July 12, 1907.  Here is the article and some comments.

ADVENTISTS FIRED; Another Bunch Kicked Out of Church Because of Lack of Faith in Mrs. White. 

Battle Creek. Mich., July 10.--Following closely on the heels of the expulsion of a dozen members of the Seventh Day Adventist church, at a meeting of the quarterly conference Sunday night, comes the announcement that at an adjourned session Monday night, another batch, including some of the most prominent names on the rolls were scratched off. 

Although the expelled members have indignantly demanded an explanation of Elder Campbell, who presided over the meeting, no specific reason is forthcoming, except that those under the ban are branded as "apostates" and "heretics."  Among those expelled Monday night are Judge Jesse Arthur, W. K. Kellogg, brother of Dr. J. H. Kellogg; Moses Kellogg, former editor of the Review and Herald, which is the church paper, and Prof. F. E. Belden, once a member of the Adventist college faculty. It is said there are 700 on the list slated to go. They are not all Battle Creek people. 

Prominent Adventists say the cause of the wholesale expulsions is over the refusal of many to look upon Mrs. Ellen G. White, the acknowledged head of the church, as inspired. 

------------------------------------------- 

Tom Norris said: By this time, 1907, the SDA's had already retreated from Battle Creek. So this is old news. The great schism had already started about 5 years previous, and thus many, if not all of those being removed no longer attended church. They had left years before because they concluded that that the SDA church was wrong about many points of doctrine. 

Although Ellen White promoted Waggoner's new theology, she did not take it as far as he and all the others had done. Thus she found herself not only fighting against the legalist Uriah Smith, but also against Kellogg and a whole host that were ready to repudiate the Three Angles Messages. Long absent from town, her enemies had a field day, because she was viewed as the problem, when that was not true at all. 

Even though she was the leader that encouraged these new views, she would now be viewed as the one that was stopping progress and fighting against truth. 

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of SDA's in Battle Creek had become distrustful and hostile towards the church leaders and their confused doctrines. Ellen White was scorned and openly mocked, even though she was nowhere around. 

It seemed as if the Adventists were cursed as both the Review and the San burned to the ground in 1902. This disaster sealed the fate of the General Conference, forcing them to retreat to Takoma Park. 

By 1907, Kellogg emerged victorious, his control of the newly rebuilt San was a stinging blow to the SDA's who had been humiliated, ruined, and run of out town by a schism of their own making. 

It is tragic that the history of Battle Creek has been kept from the Adventist Community. Thanks to the Internet, the church can no longer suppress and manipulate history. The whole story is now in the public domain, and thus the myths that sustain the Adventist Community will be exposed as worthless drivel and historical fraud. 

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … #POST91958

Don asked:  As in the Ford crisis, many ministers quit the church. Is there evidence of a similar withdrawal of clergy during the Kellogg crisis? The 1888 crisis?

Canright was the first minister and church leaders to leave over the 1888 theology.  This was in 1887.  Uriah Smith was also tempted a year later to bolt the Denomination, but he had a better position then Canright and thus he had much more to lose.  So he stayed in the church and help lead the fight against Waggoner, Jones, and Ellen White until Daniels terminated him from the Review in 1902 for promoting legalism.   

By the end of the decade many were starting to leave the church and then it became a flood.

What happened after Glacier View had already happened once before in Battle Creek.  Thus, for those paying attention to SDA history, Glacier View was a replay of the 1888 catastrophe.   

Tom said:  the church leaders were forced to retreat to Takoma Park 

Don asked:  What evidence can you offer that the move to Takoma Park should be viewed as a "forced retreat?"  Didn't Ellen White warn that Battle Creek was getting too concentrated and that the work should move? 

Don, you need to read the historical accounts of this time period.  This is no secret.  It’s just that such negative things were ignored and downplayed so much that they seem new to the uninformed.  But you are a Bible teacher, so you should already know these sources and these stories.   

I can’t believe you have not read Testimonies to Ministers.  I know you have.  This is from the 1890’s and speaks about some of these things.

But the White Estate has so contaminated church history that few can understand what they were reading.  You and everyone else were viewing things the way the White Estate wanted it to be viewed, which is very different from what really happened.

So you need to read these old accounts, but do so very carefully.  Because there is double talk and fraud all around Ellen White’s writings, as well as the work of the church historians.

Read TM and see for yourself how Ellen White viewed things in Battle Creek from her exile in Australia.  See what she is saying about the 1888 debates, but be careful not to read the White Estates propaganda into what Ellen White is saying.

http://www.gilead.net/egw/books/misc/Te … /index.htm

For example, the White Estate presents Ellen White’s epic 1888 struggle with Uriah Smith and the leaders as if one side, her side, championed Sanctification and the other side refused to embrace this necessary call to a “reformation of life.”  The Takoma Park apologist made it seem that the battle was between Ellen White promoting “regeneration” against those that refused “to experience a personal relationship with Christ.”   

But nothing could be further from the truth.  They were being very dishonest about SDA history.  It was Smith who championed Sanctification and law keeping, while Ellen White and Waggoner were taking the opposite view, which was based on Luther’s interpretation of the Gospel in his Galatian Commentary.   

Listen to the White Estate promote a manipulated and fraudulent view of the 1888 debates in the book TM.  It is very wrong.

“DURING THE DECADE WHICH FOLLOWED THE 1888 GENERAL CONFERENCE SESSION HELD IN MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA, VITAL MESSAGES CAME FROM THE MESSENGER OF THE LORD TO THE CENTRAL CHURCH AT BATTLE CREEK, TO THE GENERAL CONFERENCE COMMITTEE, AND TO OTHER RESPONSIBLE MEN AT THE HEART OF THE WORK. THESE MESSAGES RANG WITH CALLS FOR REGENERATION AND REFORMATION OF LIFE, URGING THE READER TO LIVE BY THE VITAL PRINCIPLES OF THE WORD OF GOD AND TO EXPERIENCE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST.

http://www.gilead.net/egw/books/misc/Te … /index.htm

So before the reader even looks at this book, which was written in the context of the 1888 debate, the White Estate has misled them about what they are about to read.  They have purposefully misstated the debate and set the reader up to misunderstand the issues and the history following 1888.   

Here is more diversion and fraud from the White Estate.

SOMEHOW THE ISSUES CAME TO BE IDENTIFIED WITH CERTAIN MEN. TO MANY, THE MESSAGE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH STRUCK HOME, AND THERE WAS A RESPONSE OF HEART AND SOUL WHICH LED TO VICTORIOUS EXPERIENCE IN PERSONAL CHRISTIAN LIVING. THERE WERE OTHERS WHO IDENTIFIED THEMSELVES WITH CERTAIN CAUTIOUS AND CONSERVATIVE LEADERS FROM BATTLE CREEK WHO SAW WHAT THEY THOUGHT WERE PERILS IN SOME OF THE TEACHINGS PRESENTED. WHEN THE CONFERENCE CAME TO A CLOSE, THESE MEN HAD FAILED TO GAIN THE BLESSING GOD HAD IN STORE FOR THEM. <BR> <BR>

Note that the term RBF is being used, and understand that no such terminology was used during the 1888 debates.  So here is more fraud from the White Estate that is being slipped into the revised story by the church leaders.

Note also that the theology of a “victorious Experience” of Sanctification was also identified as being part of the correct 1888 theology.  But once again, the Apologists are changing history and inserting their own beliefs and prejudices into the record.  They are not being careful or honest with the sources because they have an agenda.  And the fact that Ellen White refutes this legalistic paradigm is beside the point.  They will make Ellen White say what they want her to say.  And this is what they have done.

Do you see the phrase “some of the teachings.”  What does this mean?  It means that the White Estate is not going to describe the real debate, even though they made it clear what they thought the issues were all about.  But of course the real debate is nothing like what they said.  They have been lying to the Adventist Community from the very beginning.  Which means that TA is built on deception and fraud.

So the closer you look at these White Estate publications, the more fraud, diversion, and error they contain.  It is an insult to Ellen White and the Advent Movement for this to have taken place.  This massive fraud cannot be allowed to stand.  It makes it very hard for anyone to understand church history correctly, much less what Ellen White is really saying.  It is a crime that must be exposed to the light of day.

More then that, the White Estate also made the point that there were missing documents, when they had more than enough documents to explain every detail of the 1888 debates.  So they are just double-talking and deceiving the church with this nonsense.

THERE IS NO RECORD OF THE DISCOURSES WHICH WERE PRESENTED AT THE CONFERENCE BY OTHERS THAN ELLEN G. WHITE, FOR IT WAS NOT THE CUSTOM OF THAT TIME TO PUBLISH THE ADDRESSES. 

http://www.gilead.net/egw/books/misc/Te … /index.htm

So beware of the White Estate’s false spin on history when you study and read things.  Like I have often said, the White Estate has to correct every book they have ever written.  None of them are without serious error and fraud.  They are an abomination.  They are the root cause for all the evil that has befallen the modern SDA’s.  The White Estate has ruined Ellen White and now they need to be shut down until they can explain their fraud and correct the record.

Don asked:  Battle Creek College moved to Berrien Springs. Do you consider that part of the retreat, as well? 

Read what Ellen White wrote about this.  I think she makes it very clear that this was the case.  Look it up.

Don said:  So far, in my own studies, I have found no evidence of a "forced retreat."  Hope you can help. 

What evidence have you found for the IJ being a pillar from the 1st Angels Message?  There is no such evidence, but yet you believe it with all your heart.  Which means, you do not know how to study doctrine or church history correctly.  You see what you want to see and ignore what you don’t like.  This does not qualify as genuine or honest study.

You need to read the old history books from Spalding, Olsen, etc.  There are plenty of books that tell about this tragic period when the church headquarters was moved to Takoma Park.  It was an awful period that is on the record.

In fact, the GC was essentially bankrupt at this point, and the Review had been burned to the ground.  Kellogg kept the San and the Health Magazine, and the vast majority of SDA’s in Battle Creek no longer supported the denomination.   

According to Ellen White, the Judgments of God would visit the Denomination for their rejection of the 1888 Gospel, and this is what takes place.

Here is more from Ellen White about the connection between 1888 and the devastation of the Battle Creek Empire.  These quotes are from the 1890’s and up to the 1902 fire.  Most of the quotes come from TM. 

By the mid 1890s, Ellen White, who was still in Australia, directed sharp remarks about the Minneapolis conflict to the floundering church leadership in Battle Creek. She boldly warned the leaders that grave consequences would ensue if they continued to reject the 1888 message. In a special testimony to the Battle Creek church, Ellen White asked the question: 

"I inquire of those in responsible positions in Battle Creek, What are you doing? You have turned your back and not your face to the Lord. There needs to be a cleansing of the heart, the feelings, the sympathies, the words, in reference to the most momentous subjects--the Lord God, eternity, truth. What is the message to be given at this time? It is the third angel's message. But that light which is to fill the whole earth with its glory has been despised by some who claim to believe present truth. Be careful how you treat it.... I know not but some have even now gone too far to return and to repent [13]."

Ellen White was referring to the 1888 message. 

Ellen White then upbraided the leadership for refusing to accept the message of 1888 and accused them of actually hating the Minneapolis theology. In reference to those in charge of the work at Battle Creek, she wrote: "These men are parties to the ruin of souls, they have interposed themselves between the heaven sent light and the people. They have trampled upon the word of God and are doing despite to his Holy Spirit."

To avoid any misunderstanding, Ellen White then plainly stated: 

"The Lord in his great mercy sent a most precious message to His people through Elders Waggoner and Jones. This message was to bring more prominently before the world the uplifted Savior, the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. It presented justification through faith in the surety; it invited the people to receive the righteousness of Christ, which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. Many had lost sight of Jesus. They needed to have their eyes directed to His divine person, His merits, and His changeless love for the human family.... This is the message that God commanded to be given to the world. It is the third angel's message, which is to be proclaimed with a loud voice, and attended with the outpouring of his Spirit in a large measure [14]."

Ellen White publicly warned the church leaders in no uncertain terms that those who had stood their ground ever since 1888 and had "for years" resisted the light of the Minneapolis theology were in grave danger. She had "no smooth message" for those who had confused the theological issues in an attempt to protect their previous positions, refusing to admit error [15].

She decried the fact that the Minneapolis reformers had been taunted and accused of being "fanatics, extremist, and enthusiasts."   "Let me prophecy unto you," she publicly wrote, "unless you speedily humble your hearts before God, and confess your sins, which are many, you will when it is too late see that you have been fighting against God...Your turning things upside down is known of the Lord. Go on a little longer as you have gone, in rejection of the light from heaven and you are lost [16]."

In 1896, Ellen White wrote another communication to Battle Creek entitled, "The Danger of Rejecting Truth." She was very concerned about the denomination for she knew they were in great "peril."  The church needs to be converted, she wrote, again making reference to the denomination's refusal to accept the 1888 message. She reminded them about the history of the Jewish nation and compared their rejection of Christ with the denomination's recent rejection of the new light from Minneapolis [17].

In a reference to Waggoner and Jones' unauthorized promotion of their theological views throughout the denomination against the expressed wishes of the hierarchy, Ellen White drew the parallel of how the chief priests and rabbis thought they, too, were competent to instruct the apostles as to how they should teach. She then defended Waggoner and Jones by making the point that "men in authority are not always to be obeyed, even though they may profess to be teachers of the Bible [18]."

According to Ellen White, the religious leaders in Battle Creek refused to "open their eyes to discern the fact that they have misinterpreted and misapplied the scriptures, and have built up false theories, calling them fundamental doctrines of the faith [19]."

In a reference to the Galatian controversy, she scolded the church by saying, Seventh-day Adventists "are in danger" of rejecting truth "because it contradicts something which they have taken for granted" but which is not really truth at all.

At the close of the epistle, Ellen White could not refrain from speaking even more to the point. Because she knew that the Review had been the largest and most influential antagonist against the Minneapolis message, she felt it her duty to warn this great, beloved institution that it was in serious danger. "That men should keep alive the spirit which ran riot at Minneapolis," she wrote, "is an offense to God. All heaven is indignant at the spirit that for years has been revealed in our publishing institution at Battle Creek. Unrighteousness is practiced that God will not tolerate. He will visit for these things [20]."

Because the vast majority of the Battle Creek hierarchy continued to reject the original Minneapolis message, numerous evils resulted. This in turn lead to the fulfillment of Ellen White's predictions that the judgments of God would be poured out upon the denomination's revered institutions. These monuments to the third angel that had been built at such great cost and sacrifice were to be totally destroyed and the Church's headquarters in Battle Creek forever abandoned. This, according to Ellen White, was the direct result of the denomination's rejection of the Minneapolis message.

By February, 1902, the world-famous sanitarium burned to the ground and ten months later, the Review and Herald building was also completely destroyed. The Review especially had been the proudest and most visible symbol of the rise and progress of Seventh-day Adventism, and its sudden and total loss was a staggering blow to the work of the third angel. Within one hour, the flames of judgment had reduced the Review's four-story, 80,000-square foot building to a heap of smoldering ruins [21], never again to be rebuilt in Battle Creek [22].

Ellen White was not surprised by these events. "When this news [about the destruction of the Review by fire] came," she said, "I felt no surprise, and I had no words to speak. What I have had to say from time to time in warnings has had no effect except to harden those who heard, and now I can only say: I am sorry, so very sorry, that it was necessary for this stroke to come. Light has been given. If it were acted upon, further light would not be needed [23]."

Ellen White was sadly convinced that, "God's people have departed from Him; they have not followed His instruction, and He has come near them in correction [24]."

It was Ellen White's position that the denomination's 14-year history from 1888 through 1902 culminated in tragic loss as a direct result of not accepting the original 1888 message delivered by Waggoner and Jones. Her interpretation of this time period makes the events of the 1888 era assume a more solemn and ominous tone than many have previously realized. Although more than a century has passed since the 1888 Minneapolis Conference, there can be no mistake about Ellen White's assessment. Her famous statement in 1902 summarizes her viewpoint of this episode quite succinctly: "I have been instructed," she wrote, "that the terrible experience at the Minneapolis conference is one of the saddest chapters in the history of the believers in present truth [25]."

Following the "fiery indignation," as Ellen White called it, the church leadership, under her direction, fled Battle Creek in humiliation and disgrace--never to return.

http://www.adventistreform.com/The1888D … Assessment

So Don, research this period all you want.  It is very misunderstood because the leaders have been so dishonest about church history.  But there is plenty of information available for those that want to find out the truth.

So I say again, the SDA’s were forced out of Battle Creek.  They retreated to Takoma Park in order to get away from Kellogg and the chaos that had erupted following the 1888 fiasco.  Educate yourself with the facts and avoid being taken in by the church’s propaganda.

Don, I am sure we have gone over this before.  In fact, I remember discussing this when someone asked about Belden.  Here is this link:

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … #POST91958

See Post on Monday, December 8, 2008 - 12:43 pm.

Also see:

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … #POST57830

-------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------

Bob Sands said:  I didn't read all your piece Tom, but as I understand it Des Ford is a Sabbatarian, which in my opinion, is anti-Gospel, or preaching another Gospel. 

First, understand that church doctrine is not about our opinions, but those of the Apostles.  It is their opinions that matter, not ours.  So don’t get too excited or enamored with your own opinions.  They are not worth much, and neither is mine.

Second, Dr. Ford is a Sabbatarian for a very good reason, because the Apostles were all Sabbatarian.  But he is not an Old Covenant Sabbatarian as are most SDA’s.  Rather, he is a New Covenant Sabbatarian, which is very different.   

So Dr. Ford embraces the “Gospel Sabbath,” which is hardly “anti-Gospel.”  The Sunday based Lord’s Day however, is correctly associated with the false Gospel of Rome and thus it should be called “anti-Gospel.”

Third, your assumption that the Moral Law has been removed from the New Covenant is wrong.  Paul does not teach such a position, and neither does the RCC or the Protestants.  However, this is exactly what Marcion, the 2nd century Gnostic did teach, and what many today believe.

Those today that claim the Moral Law has been removed from the NT- are following the theology of Marcion, not the apostles or church fathers.  Those that also think religion is all about Jesus are Gnostics, not Christians.  They follow Marcion, not Paul or Luther, who were both very careful to SEPARATE the law from the Gospel, thus preserving and upholding both.

But separating is very different from removing or discarding.

Consider this:  The God of the OT is the author of the teachings of Jesus.  Even as he is also superior to Jesus in every way.  Marcion never believed this and many today follow in his footsteps. 

The Moral law is not removed for the Christian.  That is why the Christian Bible contains a record of the Old Testament as the Word of God, along with the NT and the Words of Jesus and his apostles.  Marcions Bible omitted the entire OT!  He did away with it and the mean Jewish God and his laws.  Just like you are trying to do. But the RCC did the right thing and protested Marcions view of theology.  How many give them credit for this?

There are TWO Covenants in Christian theology.  Not just one.  They both must be correctly understood or the Gospel will not be comprehended correctly.   

The secret is not to remove the Moral law, but to separate it from the Gospel, allowing the law to have its proper place in the J/C paradigm.

The ability to understand this point is critical for salvation.  One cannot correctly understand the Gospel if this distinction is not maintained.  Listen to Luther and learn:

"This difference between the Law and the Gospel is the height of knowledge in Christendom. Every person and all persons who assume or glory in the name of Christian should know and be able to state this difference. If this ability is lacking, one cannot tell a Christian from a heathen or a Jew; of such supreme importance is this differentiation. This is why St. Paul so strongly insists on a clean-cut and proper differentiating of these two doctrines."

Martin Luther, Sermon On Galatians, 1532.

While the RCC blended the Moral law with the Gospel, Luther rejected this error.  He is famous for separating and distinguishing the Moral law from the Gospel, which is still the basis for all Protestant doctrine today.   

Luther never claimed that the 10 C’s were eliminated from the NT, or that they had no further purpose or function in the church.  He was not a Gnostic, and thus he does not support your view that the law has vanished.

Listen to Luther:

"The true way of becoming a Christian is to be justified by faith in Jesus Christ, and not by the works of the Law. We know that we must also teach good works, but they must be taught in their proper turn, when the discussion is concerning works and not the article of justification."

"Here the question arises by what means are we justified? We answer with Paul, 'By faith only in Christ are we pronounced righteous, and not by works.'  Not that we reject good works. Far from it. But we will not allow ourselves to be removed from the anchorage of our salvation."

"The Law is a good thing. But when the discussion is about justification, then is no time to drag in the Law. When we discuss justification we ought to speak of Christ and the benefits He has brought us. Christ is no sheriff. He is 'the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.'"  John 1:29.

VERSE 16. That we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the Law. 

"We do not mean to say that the Law is bad. Only it is not able to justify us. To be at peace with God, we have need of a far better mediator than Moses or the Law. We must know that we are nothing. We must understand that we are merely beneficiaries and recipients of the treasures of Christ."  Martin Luther’s Commentary on Gal 2:16

While most all Christians today, including the SDA’s, teach that Sanctification plays a determinative role in our salvation, this is not true.  Listen to Luther make this point: 

"Note, Paul everywhere teaches justification, not by works, but solely by faith; and not as a process, but instantaneous. The testament includes in itself everything--justification, salvation, the inheritance and great blessing. Through faith it is instantaneously enjoyed, not in part, but all."

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … #POST49100

So I repeat the point:  The Protestants did not REMOVE the Moral law, they SEPERATED it from the Gospel, thus keeping both for different purposes.  Any that claim the Moral law is no longer functional are not Christian.  Any that claim salvation to be an uncertain “process” that includes our sanctification, are not Protestant.  Which means that the SDA’s have a RC view of the Gospel.

Listen to the Reformers reference this distinction in the Formula of Concord: 

"We believe, teach, and confess that the distinction of the Law and of the Gospel, as a most excellently clear light, is to be retained with special diligence in the Church of God, in order that the Word of God, agreeably to the admonition of St. Paul, may be rightly divided."  The Formula of Concord, 1576.

The Reformers were very careful to separate sanctification, which they called LAW, from the Gospel. It was their position that only Justification by Faith was contained in the Gospel, while Sanctification was expressly and purposefully removed from the salvific equation, even though the law was still alive and active in the church.  They did not deny Sanctification, or the binding nature of the Moral law, but they insisted that it be subordinated to JBF, the only basis for salvation.

The Roman Catholic Church held the opposite view and INCLUDED sanctification, (law keeping), as a major part of the Gospel, even to the extent that it would make us just. Rome taught that without an acceptable level of sanctification, that is obedience to the 10 C’s, JBF would be of no avail, and the sinner would perish for lack of obedience and for the lack of a personal, (active) righteousness. 

Unlike the Reformers, who taught that we are never "just" or righteous within ourselves, Rome taught that because of sanctification, we are eventually made "just" and "righteous" as a normative process of active spiritual growth.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … #POST32729

Those that claim the Moral law is no longer alive or functioning are neither RC nor Protestant.  They are Gnostics that follow the theology of Marcion.

"There is no point on which men make greater mistakes than on the relation which exists between the law and the gospel. Some men put the law instead of the gospel; others put gospel instead of the law. A certain class maintains that the law and the gospel are mixed...These men understand not the truth and are false teachers."  C.H. Spurgeon, New Park Street Pulpit, 1855

Bob, note that your position is not even referenced as an option by Spurgeon.  Any that deny the validity of the Old Covenant, or that the Moral law has been removed, are not even considered Christian.  They are standing outside the doctrines of the church.  Thus, you need to repent for your error here, or accept the fact that you are not a Christian in any sense of the word.  You are not RC or P.  Marcion, not Paul is your apostle.   

How can you stand on the Judgment day by declaring there is no law?  By ignoring God the Father and pretending that you only need his Son and not his law?  Such a position is suicide.

2Th. 2:8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

Matt. 7:21  “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

It should be clear that the Gnostics would not fare well in the Judgment.  I suggest that you educate yourself on these matters before it is too late.   

Listen to Luther on the Law:

"The other word of God is not Law or commandment, nor does it require anything of us; but after the first Word, that of the Law, has done this work and distressful misery and poverty have been produced in the heart, God comes and offers his lovely, living Word, and promises, pledges, and obligates himself to give grace and help, that we may get out of this misery and that all sins not only be forgiven but also blotted out and that love and delight to fulfill the law may be given besides."

"See, this divine promise of his grace and of the forgiveness of his is properly called Gospel. And I say again and yet again that you should never understand Gospel to mean anything but the divine promise of his grace and of the forgiveness of sin. For this is why hitherto St. Paul's epistles were not understood and cannot be understood by our adversaries even now; they do not know what Law and Gospel really are."

"For they consider Christ a Legislator and the Gospel nothing but the teaching of new laws. This is nothing else but locking up the gospel and obscuring everything. For 'Gospel' is Greek and means 'good news' because in it is proclaimed the saving doctrine of life, of the divine promise, and grace and the forgiveness of sins are offered. Therefore works do not belong to the gospel; for it is not laws but faith alone, because it is nothing whatever but the promise and offer of divine grace."

"He, then, who believes the Gospel receives grace and the Holy Spirit. Thereby the heart becomes glad and joyful in God and then keeps the Law gladly and freely, without the fear of punishment and without the expectation of reward; for it is sated and satisfied with that grace of God by which the law has been satisfied."

Luther repudiates any view that says the 10 Commandments are removed from the church.  He does not agree with what you are saying.

He even supports the Sabbath, even though he had no idea that this is a deeper and more complex doctrine than he understood.  For Luther, the Sabbath featured preaching and Bible Study.  Which of course is correct.  Listen to Luther on the Sabbath:

"The Third Commandment: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. What does this mean for us? - We are to fear and love God so that we do not neglect His Word and the preaching of it, but regard it as holy and gladly hear and learn it."

http://www.konig.org/wc196.htm\]http:// … wc196.htm\

See also: http://www.ten-commandments.us/ten_comm … uther.html

http://www.ten-commandments.us/ten_comm … uther.html

So I repeat, the Moral law is still valid in the NT.  That is why every church has a weekly Sabbath.  The fact that this happens to be on Sunday needs to be corrected.  But they all do it for the same reason; because the law is still valid in the NT era.

Every church also embraces the God of the OT.  He has not gone anywhere, nor is he subordinate to Christ.  The fire and brimstone God of the OT did not go away as Marcion taught.  He is still in charge of the world and the church, even as Christ answers to him and obeys him in all things.   Thus God the father, the famous Jewish God of the Old Testament, is still the God of the NT.  Marcion never accepted this fact, but the Church of Rome got it right.

Those that think the Christian faith is only and all about Jesus have turned their backs on the one true God of the Jews, the father of Christ.   

Thus, there is OT and NT.  Together, they form the Word of God, which contains both law and Gospel.  One must understand how to distinguish these two paradigms one from another in order to be a Protestant.   

But alas, few understand the law or the Gospel correctly.   This is what the SDA’s were supposed to correct, but, like blind men following the blind, they have fallen into the ditch and they can’t seem to get up.   

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Offline

#5 05-23-09 5:43 pm

don
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,121

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

Tom, thanks for this. It has helped.

You show how the crisis of 1888 and the Kellogg crisis are related. You also show how the Adventists leaving Battle Creek can be viewed as an escape from the power and influence of Kellogg.


I am not yet convinced that the SDA church was teetering on the brink of collapse because of this.

These are my words, not yours. Correct me if you did not mean this?


I have come to view this as a sad and distressing time for the Adventist church. The wonderful unity between Kellogg and his supporters and Ellen White and hers, evident in the records, during most of the 1890's slipped away in the early 1900's.

The church suffered from the schism. To me, that is obvious. But, Ellen White's counsel during this time kept the church strong in faith and gave them a way forward out of the schism and into the future.

Offline

#6 05-23-09 5:52 pm

elaine
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,391

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

This record that Tom supplied, does show what happens to anyone of prominence who dares to question beliefs.  One never knows the road not taken.   

Those who left or were cast out, often had to withstand the lies that were told and retold concerning their leaving.   

Has the church prospered and benefited from Des Ford's defrocking?  Truth doesn't change, only the names and those in power rule.

Offline

#7 05-23-09 6:03 pm

don
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,121

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

Has the church prospered and benefited from Des Ford's defrocking?

In Cottrell's account of Glacier view, he reports that Ford expressed a willingness to discontinue teaching his offensive views. This was quite a noble approach. The Church did not work with him. I do believe this unwillingness to hink through a crisis has haunted the church. We can do better.

As Ford attempted to explain his view of inspiration, the Church administrators in charge of his career could not, or would not, acknowledge his positive view of Ellen White. Glacier view was a much a controversy over Ellen White as it was over the IJ. But, as I said earlier, it is also about administrative manners and generosity.

I agree, that the main personnel crises in the church seem to focus on similar issues.

Message edited by Don on May 23, 2009

Offline

#8 05-29-09 8:42 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

Don said:  Tom, … It has helped. You show how the crisis of 1888 and the Kellogg crisis are related. You also show how the Adventists leaving Battle Creek can be viewed as an escape from the power and influence of Kellogg. 

Don there is no other way to view this situation.  The General Conference leadership, which included the aging Ellen White, (who did not reside in Battle Creek), determined that they must leave Battle Creek.  They correctly concluded that there were too many powerful forces against them. 

They could have rebuilt the GC and Review after the fire and stayed in Battle Creek-- if they had wanted.  Kellogg rebuilt the San, so why did they choose not to rebuild and stay?

Because they did not want to stay in a place where their doctrines and leaders were so unpopular and where there was such criticism and serious competition for control.  Thus Ellen White correctly concluded that to stay in Battle Creek would so compromise the prophetic mission of the SDA’s, that they had to move, or the paradigm of the Three Angels Messages would be destroyed and lost.  This was her primary motivation.  This is why they left.

So the GC abandoned Battle Creek in defeat, humiliation, and poverty.  The 3rd Angels Message, which started out with so much sacrifice and promise, and which reached such a remarkable level of success, had ended in almost total disaster.   It was a sad rags to riches --and back to rags-- story.  Consequently, it was time to move away in order for the church’s eschatology to survive for future generations.  There was no future for the eschatology of the Three Angels Messages in Battle Creek after 1900.

How fitting that the church moved down to Takoma Park.  Why?  Because this location was chosen because of its eschatological association with the closing events, meaning the National Sunday laws.  Ellen White was determined that SDA eschatology would live on, and the selection of Takoma Park made this point.   

What a pity that the Takoma Park leaders ruined her plan?  How sad that after Ellen White died, the Three Angels Messages would be so scrambled by the White Estate and the Review, that once again, the SDA’s would experience another great schism and collapse.  They would even fall into Pluralism, which is exactly what happened in Battle Creek a decade or so before the great collapse.  Thus, by the turn of the 21st century, few SDA’s not had any idea how to define the Three Angels Messages, nor did many care.   

While 1888 was the primary reason for the demise of the Battle Creek Empire, Glacier View repeated the same mistake.  Here they defended a fraudulent view of the Gospel and the Judgment, as well as SDA hermeneutics and the Three Angels Messages.  Here is where the White Estate made their fraud official, even as they supported the exile of Dr. Ford who was telling the truth all along.  All this chaos and schism is the fault of the leaders.  They have betrayed the Adventist Community and the Pioneers, and now nothing makes any sense.

Traditional Takoma Park Adventist has turned out to be a wicked fraud that paved the way for the demise of modern Adventism.  Unless there is zealous repentance, including the correction of the record, the SDA’s are doomed.  They have been ruined by their corrupt leaders, just like the Jews.

Don said:  I am not yet convinced that the SDA church was teetering on the brink of collapse because of this. (These are my words, not yours.) Correct me if you did not mean this? 

Don, I have yet to convince you that that IJ is NOT a pillar in the 1st Angels Message.  Even though this is a fact that cannot be repudiated by you, Goldstein, or anyone else.  So you are a hard man to convince of anything.  Some would even say you are blind, like all those that support Traditional Adventism and Glacier View.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?” 

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

As for church history; the Denomination was indeed “teetering on the brink of collapse by the end of the 1890’s.”  In hindsight, this is a self-evident observation that can hardly be denied.  It is an empirical fact of history.  The Denomination was not only “teetering”—it FELL!  The fact that most SDA’s have no clue about what happened in Battle Creek is beside the point.   

In fact, the Denomination faced one damaging crisis after another, until the cumulative effect destroyed the Denomination’s Battle Creek headquarters.   The credibility of SDA theology and mission was so damaged by the unresolved 1888 debates, that by 1900 a collapse was inevitable.

This crisis started in 1887, when Canright left the church.  He represented the next generation of talented leaders, and when he bolted, he did not go quietly.  Rather, he went on the attack and started a new career as the most vocal, well published, and damaging of all SDA critics.   

His Refutation and slander of the Advent Movement, including Ellen White, became a cottage industry, and no one should underestimate the damage done by Canright, who became a Baptist and remained close to Battle Creek.  His infamous book about Renouncing Adventism was first published in 1889 and became the road map for all the many critics that followed.

Here was the beginning of a series of shocking events that would confuse and divide the church, eventually starting a great schism that forced the leaders to retreat to Takoma Park.  But the Canright defection was only the beginning. There was more bad news in store for the unprepared church as the next year, 1888, marked the introduction of the National Sunday Bill that the SDA’s had long predicted.   

But they were not ready.  It caught them by total surprise, even as they were forced to take action to deal with this new problem that, for them, foreshadowed the great time of trouble.

At this point, little did any of them know that they only had a dozen or so years before their Empire would collapse and the GC would limp off to Takoma Park in an effort to save the Adventist Apocalyptic.  So there was a time of trouble coming for SDA’s, but it turned out to be very different from what they imagined.

In addition to the Canright defection, and the emergence of a National Sunday law in Congress, things would get even more complicated as the 1888 debates erupted and went public in the fall.  In fact, this debate became a featured topic by Ellen White for the next few years, even as she was responsible for forcing the opposing factions to meet for a public debate to clear the air in 1890. This was the real 1888 debate, which the White Estate was hiding from the church.

This entire debate, which would never be resolved, would end in great confusion and division, as well as the exile of both Ellen White and Dr. Waggoner.  Because the leaders refused to embrace Luther’s view of the Two Covenants in Galatians, they shut down the discussion and used force and censorship to accomplish what they could not do in a fair debate.  Which means that they only pushed the issues underground, where the problems would grow into a full-scale rebellion against the Fundamentals and even Ellen White.

Don said:  I have come to view this as a sad and distressing time for the Adventist church. 

The period from 1887 to 1902 was a disaster for the SDA’s.  This is why they had to retreat to Takoma Park.  The 1888 debates turned out to be a catastrophe for the Denomination.  Which is why the Takoma Park leaders plotted to keep the details hidden while they substituted a fictionalized and sanitized version of church history.   

But the facts have been discovered and it is time that the Adventist Community understands the truth about their history and doctrinal development.  All SDA’s need to know what 1888 was really all about, even as they all need to know the real definition of the Three Angels Messages.   

Listen to Canright gloat about the fall of the Battle Creek SDA’s.  Note the statistics he reports and understand that Battle Creek was reduced to a SDA wasteland after 1900.

"BATTLE CREEK, MICH. furnishes a good illustration of the failure of Adventism after a fair trial. Beginning in 1855, it was the headquarters of the denomination for about a half century. It was the home of Elder White and wife. For all those years it had the benefit of the labours of all their strongest men, and the influence of their great general conferences. Here were built, at immense cost, their great institutions, as their large publishing houses, their college, their great sanitarium of world renown, their large tabernacle, etc. "

"When I withdrew in 1887, there were nearly two thousand Sabbath keepers here, all united. Often I preached in that great tabernacle when every seat, below and in the gallery, was full. In the college I taught one class of about two hundred, all young men and women preparing to work either as ministers or Bible readers."

"Now, 1914, the college is closed and lost to the cause; the sanitarium has revolted from the denomination, and nearly all the management, doctors, nurses and helpers are Sunday keepers; the publishing houses were burned and the remnant moved away; the church has dwindled down to about four or five hundred; the tabernacle is largely empty and an elephant on their hands; three separate companies of Sabbath keepers now meet every Sabbath, having no connection with each other."

"Worse still, large numbers have backslidden, lost faith in everything, and attend nowhere. It has been like a desolating cyclone."

"About twenty years ago among the strongest men in the ranks, men of whom the whole denomination was proud, were Dr. J. H. Kellogg, head of the sanitarium; Elder A.T. Jones, editor, author, minister, orator; Elder E.J. Waggoner, editor, author, preacher; Elder Geo. Tenney editor, minister, missionary; Elder L. McCoy, minister, chaplain of sanitarium; with many persons in important positions as business managers, college professors, doctors, etc. All these are now out of the church, and all their influence is against the body."

"What has happened here is constantly happening all over the field in their old churches. It is in new fields and foreign lands where their history is unknown, that their chief gains are made."

"I can name large numbers of churches all over the land, which were large, strong churches thirty and forty years ago. Now they are either extinct or only a little handful meeting in the corner of an old church. Such are Norridgewock, Maine, Danvers, Mass., Memphis, Wright, and Monteray, Mich.; Knoxville, Sigourney, Winterset and Osceola, Iowa, with scores of smaller churches in many of the states. The thing does not wear."

"If the past is any guide, twenty years hence many of their strong men now will leave and oppose them, and many of their best churches will go down."

"In 1912, the latest statistics available, with 4,000 workers in the field, with millions of money spent, they only gained 4,000 in membership in all the world, or only one for every labourer!  The Review and Herald, April 23, 1914, says: 'Take 1912 as a basis, and we find that it cost this denomination practically from $900 to $1,000 for every person added to the church membership.'"

Seventh-day Adventism Renounced by D.M. Canright, 1914; Appendix A.

Don said:  The wonderful unity between Kellogg and his supporters and Ellen White and hers, evident in the records, during most of the 1890's slipped away in the early 1900's. 

There was great division in the church the moment Waggoner promoted Luther’s view of the law in Galatians, starting in 1886.  And the more he promoted Luther’s view of the Gospel- the angrier the leaders became.   

Kellogg was not involved in the 1888 debates because he was not a theologian, nor did he care about such doctrinal debates.  He was obsessed with Health Reform, not doctrine.  So he was not viewed as a problem for a number of years until it became obvious that he had his own agenda, which essentially reduced the church to pluralism, so that he could feature and promote Health Reform as the primary mission of the church.

So don’t think that all was fine in Battle Creek, and then all of a sudden there was a problem.  NO.  Waggoner’s unsuccessful attempt to insert Luther’s Gospel into SDA theology set off a chain of events that eventually destroyed the credibility and unity of the Denomination.   

Thus the 19th century SDA’s were destroyed because they could not grasp the Gospel, and so too the 20th century SDA’s after 1980.  Here is a sad pattern that should bring tears to the eyes of all SDA’s. 

Don said:  The church suffered from the schism. To me, that is obvious. But, Ellen White's counsel during this time kept the church strong in faith and gave them a way forward out of the schism and into the future. 

Many viewed Ellen White as part of the problem.  In fact, she became the scapegoat for all the confusion and division in Battle Creek.  Why?  Because she was the one that allowed Waggoner to promote Luther’s view of the law in Galatians in the first place.  She was the one that supported this divisive new (for SDA’s) theology, even as she joined with Waggoner to promote Luther’s Gospel, which was referred to as the Righteousness of Christ and JBF.   

Those that sided with the arch conservative Uriah Smith, and his different view of the Fundamentals, did not appreciate or support Ellen White any longer, even as the liberal critics attacked her for insisting that the Fundamentals could not be changed.  It was a very confusing and divided time for Adventism.  No wonder their Empire fell?

Luke 11:17 Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and a house divided against itself falls.

In fact, EW was so certain that Waggoner’s theology was correct, that she threatened to start a new SDA Movement if the leaders did not back off.  So Ellen White was threatening to start a walk out in 1890; she is the one that threatened a schism if Uriah Smith tried to censor her sermons about the 1888 theology.  Why?  Because the leaders would not listen to her counsel.  Just like today.  A year later they sent her far, far away.

This is one reason why she was exiled to Australia, removed from Battle Creek and separated from Waggoner, who was exiled to England.  EW caused great trouble for the leaders and they wanted her out of Battle Creek.

Furthermore, her counsel from Australia about the 1888 debates was ignored, even as the Battle Creek SDA’s became more confused about the Fundamentals.

When she came back from exile, she was horrified at the state of things in Battle Creek, but it was too late.  The leaders would not listen to Ellen White before she left and few were paying any attention to her when she came back into the Country.  In fact, Uriah Smith was so out of control that he had to be FIRED from the Review.   

Many unfairly blamed Ellen White for all this confusion, and she was reduced to a caricature and demonized by the press and the critics.

I remember being shocked as I read the old Battle Creek newspapers of that time to see how badly the local newspaper treated her.  Popular opinion of the SDA’s was at an all time low, and there was no longer any future for them in Battle Creek.  They were hopelessly divided even as they had worn out their welcome. 

Elaine said: This record that Tom supplied, does show what happens to anyone of prominence who dares to question beliefs. One never knows the road not taken. 

The Gospel story is full of accounts about “what happens to those that challenge religious authority.”

Jesus is a good example of how Gospel Reformers are treated.  He was slandered, framed, tortured, and killed; all thanks to the religious leaders that he tried to help and save.  Thus the pattern has been set for all those that promote Gospel Reform.  It is a dangerous profession, even today.  Just ask Dr. Ford and the many others that were pushed out of the SDA church for telling the truth.   

Elaine asked:  Has the church prospered and benefited from Des Ford's defrocking? 

The results of Glacier View were similar to that of 1888: Division, Schism, and Pluralism.   

After 1980, the Takoma Park SDA’s became hopelessly confused and divided, even as a great schism engulfed the church.  This is turn led the foolish leaders to make further mistakes by promoting Pluralism, which only made matters more confused and divided. 

So Glacier View was a disaster for the Denomination, and so it will always be until both leaders and people confess and repent, embracing Adventist Reform.

Don said: In Cottrell's account of Glacier view, he reports that Ford expressed a willingness to discontinue teaching his "offensive" views. 

Don, you need to show us this quote.  Please post it here so we can all look at it.

I know for a fact that Dr. Ford refused to be quiet about the Gospel when asked to do so.  There was also no way he would ever agree to pretend that the IJ was a pillar in the 1st Angels Message when he knew it was not.   

I have no idea what you think Cottrell is saying, but I know for a fact that Dr. Ford could not be bribed like so many others have.  So I think you are misquoting things.

Don further said:  This was quite a noble approach. 

What is noble about failing to stand up for your principles?  You have misunderstood things.  Dr. Ford’s view of the Gospel and the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message was very “offensive” to Traditional SDA’s.  They hated him, but nonetheless, he never offered to “discontinue” teaching either position. That is why the leaders had to exile him.  They hated his "correct" theology, and they knew he would never recant and he never did.  His views are still correct today, while time has proven the church leaders very wrong.

Don said:  The Church did not work with him. 

Ha!  That is an understatement.  The leaders chose to support Arthur White and the Review, and thus they all plotted and fought against the Gospel just like they did in 1888.  They also fought against Ellen White and the very Fundamentals that she said could never be changed.

The leaders set up a phony trial that was based on a false charge, complete with false testimony from the White Estate about Ellen White’s views.   They did this when they knew that the 1888 record had been found.  But they went forward anyway to defend the fraud of TA.  To do any less would be an admission of guilt, so they stuck with their lies and forced all to embrace their fraud or leave the church.

Glacier View was an insult to the Pioneers.  It was a sham that must be confessed and repudiated by all.

Don said:  I do believe this unwillingness to "think through" a crisis has haunted the church. We can do better. 

Ha!  The root problem was not about “thinking through a crisis” but rather-- of refusing to tell the truth.  The church had been lying so long and so often about church history and doctrine, that they came to believe their own fiction.  Those that knew better did not wish to admit what had happened for fear of a backlash and even a greater schism.  So they determined to defend the fiction of the White Estate, even as they planned to slowly move away from Arthur White’s fabrications in a controlled manner.

Thus the leaders confused propaganda with historic facts, and THIS unwillingness to be honest, fair, and Christian, has ruined the Advent Movement.  There is no excuse for what has happened.

Dr. Ford was a serious and honest Adventist scholar.  Only the facts mattered to him.  But the leaders had long ago abandoned the facts for their own propaganda. The White Estate is a criminal enterprise that should be shut down until those in charge learn how to tell the truth about Ellen White and the Fundamentals that she supported.

Don said:  As Ford attempted to explain his view of inspiration, the Church administrators in charge of his career could not, or would not, acknowledge his positive view of Ellen White. 

Dr. Ford was slandered and treated horribly.  His view of Prophecy, Hermeneutics, and Ellen White was correct.  It was the White Estate that had it all wrong.  They were the ones that were hiding thousands of documents, and misstating Ellen Whites views and authority to the world.  Dr. Ford was telling the truth, even as he had the full support of Ellen White for his positions.

Don said:  Glacier view was as much a controversy over Ellen White as it was over the IJ. But, as I said earlier, it is also about administrative manners and generosity. 

The reason Ellen White played such a large role is because the White Estate claimed that Dr. Ford was attacking the Fundamental Pillars that Ellen White said could never be removed.  The leaders misrepresented Ellen White’s views in order to make Dr. Ford look guilty, when he was not.  They were the ones that were misrepresenting Ellen White’s views, not Dr. Ford.  They were the ones that had repudiated the twin pillars of the 1st Angels Message, and turned their backs on Ellen White and Historic Adventism--not Dr. Ford.

Ellen White does not support the views of the White Estate about the IJ.  She NEVER said the IJ was the Judgment pillar from Historic Adventism.  But yet, this is what the White Estate taught for generations and what Glacier View made official.

By 1980, thanks to the incompetence and dishonesty of the White Estate, few knew the truth about the 1888 debates or how to define the Three Angels Messages correctly.   Almost no one understood how Ellen White really viewed the Gospel or the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message.  The White Estate had successfully deceived the Adventist Community so that they thought propaganda was truth. 

Dr. Ford understood the doctrinal development of the IJ, and thus he knew it was not part of the 1st Angels Message, and that Ellen White never said otherwise.  Thus, he stood his ground and refused to recant.  He DEFENDED the genuine version of the Three Angels Messages, even as he knew that the IJ is a false pillar.  He was correct and innocent of the charges against him.

The leaders however, were so delusional that they forced the members and workers to embrace their long running historical and doctrinal fraud.  Thus the White Estate and the Review, not Dr. Ford, were guilty of leading Adventism into a great schism over a lie.  They were, and still are, following the father of lies.

John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Now that this massive deception has been uncovered and exposed for all to see, the leaders are still trying to deny that they have done anything wrong.  Even though they run from this public discussion that condemns them.  Innocent people do not run and hide.

Innocent corporations do not run from public accusations of wrongdoing.  They stand their ground—if they are innocent.  Some would even bring in lawyers to protect their reputations.  But the GC and the White Estate are not innocent, even though they pretend that this is the case.  They dare not introduce a legal element into this discussion because they are guilty as charged. The evidence is overwhelming and they know it.  They have no choice but to confess the truth to the Advent Community and repent.

Let all SDA’s understand:  Traditional Adventism has NO support from Ellen White as the leaders claimed all these years.   Glacier View was a total farce; a hierarchical sham that has ruined the modern Advent Movement.  All that support Ellen White must repudiate Glacier View and demand that the White Estate be shut down until this massive fraud and deception can be resolved and the record corrected.

Today, there is no use for anyone to try and defend what has taken place in the White Estate, or at Glacier View.  TA must be repented of and repudiated by all.  Dr. Ford was an innocent man who told the truth about the Gospel and the Judgment, as well as how the Three Angels Messages must be defined and understood.  Those that disagree with his position have repudiated Ellen White and the Fundamentals that she said could never be changed.  They are not really SDA’s at all, much less Christians.

So Don, this is the issue; TA is a fraud that must be repudiated, even as all SDA’s must return to the original eschatology that defines, guides, and empowers the Advent Movement.

I suggest that you face up to these issues and try and do the right thing.  Which at this point is to PROTEST against the corrupt leaders.  This is what all SDA’s must do if they want to see the Advent Movement go forward.  The White Estate must tell the truth.  Period.

It is time for the 21st century Advent Movement to honestly address the issues.  Can you do this Don?  Are there any honest Pastors and church workers left in the Denomination, or have they all sold out their souls to their corrupt employers?

Ezek. 12:2 “Son of man, you live in the amidst of the rebellious house, who have eyes to see but do not see, ears to hear but do not hear; for they are a rebellious house.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Offline

#9 05-29-09 11:27 pm

don
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,121

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

Tom said:  Don, I have yet to convince you that that IJ is NOT a pillar in the 1st Angels Message.

Hub said:  On the contrary, Tom. Before reading your posts, I was unaware of the historical use of the terms, first, second and third angel's messages. i.e. The first was the proclamation that Christ was coming back; the second was proclaimed after the mainline churches disfellowshipped the Millerite Adventists in the years and months leading up to 1844; the third was proclaimed because of the Sabbath with a focus on two features, the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

So, Tom, don't despair, you have helped me in this. Of course, you simply provided the lead. I have gone back are read the early publications and have verified what you say about this.

A more difficult task is to track the early Adventist understanding of the Sanctuary and the associating of the preAdvent Judgment in heaven with the Sanctuary message.

Oh, another area which you have asserted which I believe is worth further study is the link between the Laodicean message and the Judgment message.

Offline

#10 05-30-09 12:20 am

elaine
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,391

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

No Man Knows My History was the story of Joseph Smith and the origin of the LDS, or Mormon church.

The origins of the SDA church, as Tom has constantly reminded us, has some things that shouldn't be investigated too closely.  Knowing the origin of one's religious beliefs should be imperative if it is to be owned.  Unfortunately, few Adventist have a clue about how the SDA church was founded; how many people were crucified along the way; how many financial shenanigans have occurred from the top down; how many deceptive practices have been covered up.   

The truth will set you free.

Offline

#11 05-30-09 12:32 am

don
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,121

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

Unfortunately, few Adventist have a clue about how the SDA church was founded; how many people were crucified along the way; how many financial shenanigans have occurred from the top down; how many deceptive practices have been covered up. The truth will set you free.

I have studied the early documents from 1840 to 1870 and have found very little in the way of crucifixions or financial shenanigans, deceptive practices. In the 1870s, 80s, 90s and early 1900s issues of leadership and integrity become more complex. Later on, even more so.

But, there is also a thread of honest-hearted work for the Gospel which impresses me, as well.

Offline

#12 05-30-09 3:06 pm

elaine
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,391

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

Yes, it's that the unpleasant things are often buried, and the good things are emphasized.  Perhaps that is how it should be?

Offline

#13 05-31-09 2:34 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

Don quoted Tom Norris who said: Don, I have yet to convince you that the IJ is NOT a pillar in the 1st Angels Message. 

Don replied:  On the contrary, Tom. Before reading your posts, I was unaware of the historical use of the terms, first, second and third angel's messages.

Don, your response does not address my point.  While I am glad that you have a better understanding of the Three Angels Messages, you avoided any mention of the specific pillars that are contained in the 1st Angel’s Message.  Why is that?

So let me ask you point blank:  Are you finally convinced that the IJ is NOT the Judgment pillar in the 1st Angles Message?   

Do you comprehend this eschatological fact?  Do you understand that you have been misled all these years by the church on this point?

I know that you were raised to think that the IJ is located in the 1st Angels Message, me too, and so was the entire 20th century SDA church.  This is what Glacier View made official and the reason why Dr. Ford was exiled. But this is an impossible myth that was never true at any time.   

Do you understand this simple point that overturns TA?  Do you understand that TA is a flawed, dishonest, and impossible paradigm?

Furthermore, I remind you that this issue is # 1 on the 12-point Reform Agenda.  Here it is broken down into sub parts so you can answer each one:

#1 Reform: Today the SDA church is teaching the wrong version of the Three Angels Messages. 

Don, do you agree?  Yes or No?

1a.  Only the Protestant Gospel and the Second Coming are featured and contained in the original, Historic version of the 1st Angels message. 

Don, do you agree?  Yes or No?

1b. Thus "the hour of his Judgment has come" in Rev 14: 7 is ONLY a reference to the Second Coming, not to the IJ. 

Don, do you agree?  Yes or No?

1c.  This means that Traditional Adventism is wrong. It does not have the support of Ellen White or the Pioneers.

Don, do you agree?  Yes or No?

So where do you stand on this first major point of Adventist Reform?  Tell us with a yes or no what you now believe.  Don’t tell us what you used to believe, but what you have now come to understand. 

Don said:  The first was the proclamation that Christ was coming back; the second was proclaimed after the mainline churches disfellowshipped the Millerite Adventists in the years and months leading up to 1844; the third was proclaimed because of the Sabbath with a focus on two features, the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. 

Don, you missed the first pillar of the 1st Angels Message.  It is the Gospel!  The second Pillar is the Second Coming as the Day of Judgment, which by the way, was the original Millerite “sanctuary doctrine.”  These twin pillars have not been honestly or properly understood or embraced by SDA’s today and this must change if this church is going to be part of the genuine Advent Movement.

So once again I ask you:  Do you now understand that there is no IJ doctrine in the 1st Angels Message?  Will you now admit that the church has made a great error and that Glacier View cannot stand?

Don said:  So, Tom, don't despair, you have helped me in this. 

While many write to me and express their thanks for helping them understand church history, I am not convinced that you have abandoned the fraud of TA.  I have yet to see you repent for your false views.  I have never seen you admit that Glacier View was wrong and that Dr. Ford has the correct version of the Gospel and the Judgment.

So here is your chance:  Are you ready to admit that you are wrong and that what the church has been teaching must be repudiated?

I repent of TA, do you?

Don said:  Of course, you simply provided the lead. I have gone back are read the early publications and have verified what you say about this. 

Good to know that you are doing some research.  But you have yet to address the point of all this research and discussion.   Why is that?  Here it is:

All SDA’s must repent of TA!   

All SDA’s must repudiate Glacier View and demand that the White Estate be cleaned up and record corrected.   

All SDA’s must call for a Reformation and Re-organization, from top to bottom, dismantling this corrupt and wicked hierarchical structure that is forbidden in the NT. 

Are you ready to embrace such necessary Adventist Reform?  Or are you just giving us the typical church double-talk?

Don said:  A more difficult task is to track the early Adventist understanding of the Sanctuary and the associating of the pre Advent Judgment in heaven with the Sanctuary message. 

Ha!  This has been done by Dr. Ford as well as by others.  No need to pretend that such history is difficult to obtain.

Here a paper that explains the historical development of the PAJ, even as it correctly re-interprets this critical point of SDA eschatology for the 21st century.

Understanding the Pre- Advent Judgment

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1154462379

Don said:  Oh, another area which you have asserted which I believe is worth further study is the link between the Laodicean message and the Judgment message.

This link is explained in the paper above.   

So the question to you and all SDA’s is this:  What is the true PAJ for the Laodicean church?  Is it the IJ or the LM? 

Are you ready to stand up and join the legions of those that have correctly rejected the IJ as against the Gospel and against the fundamentals of the Adventist Faith?  Are you ready to apologize to Dr. Ford and repudiate Glacier View?

Are you ready to thank Dr. Ford for standing firm for the Three Angels Messages?  Are you ready to condemn the White Estate and the Review for teaching so much historical fraud and false doctrine?  And for starting a schism because of their suppression of Ellen White’s writings? 

Anyone that still supports the IJ, and this claim that it was a pillar in the 1st Angels Message, is fighting against Ellen White and the Pioneers.  They are on the wrong side of religious history, and cannot claim to be SDA’s.  Which pretty much disqualifies all those that run the church.   

No wonder the Advent Movement is self-destructing?  It is being led by those that have no idea how to define SDA theology.  It is led by those that have the wrong idea about most everything.  It is time to throw these wolves, along with their false and self-serving hierarchy, in the trash and out the door.

Elaine said: The origins of the SDA church, as Tom has constantly reminded us, has some things that shouldn't be investigated too closely. 

All should support honest history and the truthful investigation about the origins and doctrinal development of the SDA church.   

The problem with SDA’s is that their leaders have suppressed, manipulated, and fabricated church history to such an extent that the Denomination thinks propaganda is truth.   

They think the opposite of how Ellen White really viewed things.  This was the fault of the White Estate and the Review.   What has happened is horrible and criminal.  It is almost beyond belief.  It must be corrected.  Arthur White is the Bernie Madoff of the SDA’s.  Here is the greatest of all SDA scandals.   

The White Estate needs to be shut down and investigated for criminal activity and publishing fraud.  They are an arrogant agent of deception and false doctrine.  They have not represented Ellen White honestly and she would be furious for what has taken place.   <BR> <BR>

I can see that at some point in the near future, the civil authorities will have to be brought in if they refuse to do the right thing.  The White Estate is not above the civil laws that govern their conduct, and they are guilty of serious violations of the law.  Of course what they have done is also morally reprehensible and against the teaching of the Bible, but the courts do not deal with such things. This is for the church body to deal with.

So I am not trying to stop any investigations.  I am trying to get them started.  In fact, I have already investigated the White Estate and found them to be guilty of a massive fraud that is still ongoing in nature.  I have informed the leaders as well as the GC legal department, even as I have been openly promoting the evidence online that proves the charges. 

I know what they have done and thus I want them to be investigated as closely as possible.  Those guilty of this crime must be identified in front of the entire church.  Then this veil of secrecy, double-talk, and cover up will be lifted so that all will understand what has happened.  If this does not drive the SDA’s to their knees in humiliation, repentance, and reform, then nothing will.

All SDA’s should demand that the White Estate be shut down until they can learn how to tell the truth about what is in their vaults. 

All SDA’s should demand that the White Estate and the GC, which owns and controls the White Estate, tell the truth about Ellen White and correct their manipulated and dishonest record that was being covered up during Glacier View and hidden from the church so that an innocent scholar could be slandered and exiled at Glacier View.

Elaine said:  Knowing the origin of one&#39;s religious beliefs should be imperative if it is to be owned. 

Unless the SDA’s can understand their history and doctrinal development in an honest and coherent manner, they will continue to be confused and full of myth and false doctrine.  This is the problem with them.  They have been indoctrinated into believing lies and fiction.  This is how Glacier View could take place.   

The SDA’s are running on the fumes of myth, delusion, and false doctrine.  They are not standing on Bible Truth, much less on the Fundamentals of the Adventist Faith that Ellen White said could never be removed. 

Elaine said: Unfortunately, few Adventist have a clue about how the SDA church was founded; how many people were crucified along the way; how many financial shenanigans have occurred from the top down; how many deceptive practices have been covered up.

If the SDA’s understood their own history better, they would not have been teaching that the IJ was a pillar in the 1st Angels Message, or that Ellen White had any doctrinal authority.  Both of these great errors are the result of the leaders incompetence and fraud. 

So here is the biggest scandal of all.  The 19th and 20th century leaders have both “crucified” Ellen White.  She was treated horribly during the 1888 debates and then exiled.  When she came back, all sides slandered her.  She died knowing that the SDA’s had made a huge mistake because of 1888, even as she hoped her writings of this period would prevent future generations of SDA’s from repeating the same disaster.

But this is not what happened.  Instead, the White Estate hid Ellen White’s most prolific and passionate writings, and fabricated a false story about 1888.  They essentially repeated what had happened in Battle Creek as they muzzled and censored her genuine testimony and views, exiling the very facts that Ellen White wanted the church to understand.

Here is the greatest of all “financial shenanigans.”  The White Estate has made millions of dollars publishing a fraudulent view of Ellen White to the public, and now they are going to be forced to face up their evil deeds in front of the world.   

To be blunt; the White Estate is guilty of consumer fraud for publishing books about Ellen White that were not true or correct.  They have violated their state charter by perpetrating a massive publishing fraud on the public.   

They must confess and correct the record, as well as make restitution or face the civil authorities for what they have done.  One way another, this scandal is going to be exposed and corrected.

Elaine said:  The truth will set you free.

The truth about 1888 and Glacier View will set all honest SDA’s free from the fraud of Traditional Adventism.  The truth about Ellen White will overturn generations of error and allow the Adventist Movement to return to the genuine version of the Three Angels Messages.  The one that Ellen White supports and the one that Dr. Ford also supports.

Don said: I have studied the early documents from 1840 to 1870 and have found very little in the way of crucifixions, financial shenanigans, and deceptive practices. 

The early Pioneers were not dishonest frauds.  They were serious and honest, but uneducated.  After James White suddenly died in 1881, the Denomination would be run by some very unstable men, like Canright, Butler and others.  In spite of the confusion of the 1888 debates, the church was growing during this period, as was the County, and thus Battle Creek gained more power, money, and influence during the 1890’s then at any previous time, and this is when a lot of corruption did take place.   

Once in Takoma Park, the leaders ruled the church with an iron fist and with a growing propaganda machine that in hindsight was promoting a fraudulent view of Ellen White and church history all along.  The church has wasted billions of dollars as millions have been damaged, even as the fraud of tithe was used to keep the money rolling in.   

Today, the SDA church is so corrupt and dishonest that they are unable to enter into this public discussion about church history or doctrine.   Proving that propaganda is no match for the facts.   They have no desire for correction or reform, much less for free speech or debate.  The leaders think they can do whatever the please without having to answer to anyone.

In fact, Clifford Goldstein has repeatedly run away from this discussion, and so too has the White Estate, the Review Editors, Doug Batchlor, Bible Research, etc.  Why?  Because neither the church apologists nor scholars are able to defend this massive fraud that the leaders have been perpetrating for so many years.   

The church is so corrupt, and so wrong about most everything, that their only hope is that people will become bored of hearing about Adventist Reform and ignore this discussion.  They have bet the farm on pretending that all is well.

But they have seriously misjudged things. The Adventist of the 21st century are not going to be duped like the previous, more gullible generations.  There is too much information available, even as the Internet levels the playing field and exposes the massive SDA propaganda machine as worthless drivel.   

This is also what happened with the printing press during the Reformation.  This new invention rendered the church powerless to censor Gospel Reform, and thus their ability to suppress the Bible and censor their critics was greatly diminished.  Thus new forms of communication broke the hold of the church leaders on the minds of the people.

So the parallel should not be overlooked today.  The SDA church acts very much like Rome, and no one should think otherwise.  They would burn their critics at the stake if they were so allowed, but the rules have changed today. Which is why Dr. Ford is alive and well today.

But the Gospel has not changed, and neither has human nature.   The fact that those in religious power always become corrupt is normative.  Thus the need for Gospel Reform is also normative.     

At this point, it should be obvious to all that the SDA’s need REFORM in the worst way.   

I look forward to Pastor Don’s response about the first point of Adventist Reform; -if he is able to make one.   

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Offline

#14 05-31-09 3:31 pm

don
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,121

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

Tom said:  I look forward to Pastor Don’s response about the first point of Adventist Reform; -if he is able to make one.

Don said:  Tom, for the record, I present your first and second planks to Adventist Reform.


1. Today the SDA church is teaching the wrong version of the Three Angels Messages. Only the Protestant Gospel and the Second Coming are featured in the original version of the 1st Angels message. Thus the reference to "the hour of his Judgment has come" in Rev 14: 7 is ONLY a reference to the Second Coming, not the IJ. This means Glacier View is wrong, and so too Traditional Adventism.   

This point is the beginning of Adventist Reform.  Unless the Adventist Movement returns to the ORIGINAL version of the Three Angels Messages, --the one that Ellen White and all the Pioneers support--all is lost for the SDA's.   

2. The IJ is not a true or valid because the Apostles do not teach this doctrine. In fact, nowhere in the NT, or OT, is such a Celestial judgment taught.  So regardless of what the SDA's say, there can be no valid doctrine such as the IJ.  It must be repudiated.  The IJ is against the Gospel, even as it was NEVER a pillar in the 1st Angels Message as many incorrectly assume.  Thus the IJ is even AGAINST Historic Adventism and fundamentals of SDA eschatology.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … urch-1.htm


Don said:  Next, also for the record, I present the official Adventist teaching on the Sanctuary in heaven and the Investigative Judgment.

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

Christs Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension.

In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.  In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus.

The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom.

This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.

I have highlighted the portions debated.

I don't see anything in the official statement which links the investigative judgment to the historic first angel's message. 

It is obvious to me that the early Adventists did not present the judgment in heaven as part of the first angel's message. But, this is vastly different than the assertion that the early Adventists did not teach a pre-advent judgment.

Offline

#15 05-31-09 4:24 pm

don
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,121

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

The Judgment, James White, 1857

This essay by James White is one of the first on the Investigative Judgment in Adventist publications. Tom, do you agree with James White on this. Here is one of the founders of Adventism giving a Bible study supporting the Investigative Judgment.

Review and Herald, January 29, 1857, page 100

“Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth.” 

THE JUDGMENT.

FOR the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God, and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 1 Pet. iv, 17, 18. 

This text we must regard as prophetic. That it applies to the last period of the church of Christ, seems evident from verses 5-7, 12, 13. In the judgment of the race of man, but two great classes are recognized—the righteous and the sinner, or ungodly. Each class has its time of judgment; and, according to the text, the judgment of the house, or church, of God comes first in order. 

Both classes will be judged before they are raised from the dead. The investigative judgment of the house, or church, of God will take place before the first resurrection; so will the judgment of the wicked take place during the 1000 years of Rev. xx, and they will be raised at the close of that period. 

It is said of all the just, “Blessed and. holy is to that hath part in the first resurrection,” therefore all their cases are decided before Jesus comes to raise them from the dead. The judgment of the righteous is while Jesus offers his blood for the blotting out of sins. Immortal saints will reign with Christ 1000 years in the judgment of the wicked. Rev. xx, 4; 1 Cor. vi. 2, 3. The saints will not only participate in the judgment of the world, but in judging fallen angels. See Jude 6. 

“Some men’s sins [the righteousj are open before hand, going before to judgment, and some men [-the wicked ] they follow after.” 1 Tim. v, 24. That is, some men lay open, or confess their sins, and they go to judgment while Jesus’ blood can blot them out and the sins be remembered no more ; while sins unconfessed, and unrepented of, will follow, and will stand against the sinner in that great day of judgment of 1000 years. 

That the investigative judgment of the saints, dead and living, takes place prior to the second coming of Christ seems evident from the testimony of Peter.

“Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick [livingj and the dead. For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according [in like manner] to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.” 1 Pet. iv, 5-7. 

It appears that the saints are judged while some are living, and others are dead. To place the investigative judgment of the saints after the resurrection of the just, supposes the possibility of a mistake in the resurrection, hence the necessity of an investigation to see if all who were raised were really worthy of the first resurrection. But the fact that all who have part in that resurrection are “blessed and holy,” shows that decision is passed on all the saints before the second coming of Christ.

The judgment of the house of God is evidently shadowed forth by the events of the. tenth-day atonement of the house of Israel. That, in a certain sense, was a day of judgment. The high priest wore the breast-plate of judgment on which was represented the tribes of Israel. Ex. xxxix, 8-21. “For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that day, he shall be cut off from among his people. Lev. xxiii, 29. 

The 2300 days [Dan. viii, 14] reached to the cleansing of the Sanctuary, or to the great day of atonement in which the sins of all who shall have part in the first resurrection will be blotted out. Those days terminated in 1844. We think the evidence clear, that since that time the judgment of those who died subjects of the grace of God has been going on, while Jesus has been offering his blood for the blotting out of their sins. 

THE BLOTTING-OUT TIME.

When are sins blotted out? Is it at the time when they are forgiven? We think not. We must look to the great day of atonement as the time when Jesus offers his blood for the blotting out of sins. It is at the time of the cleansing of the Sanctuary. Said Peter to the wondering multitude who witnessed the lame man healed, “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come- from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you; whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” Acts iii, 19-21.

Here the time for blotting out of sins is placed forward just prior to the second appearing of Jesus. It is evidently the last great work in the ministry of Christ in the heavenly Sanctuary. 

ARE SINS WRITTEN IN HEAVEN?

We think the Scriptures fully warrant the view that a record of the acts of all accountable men are written in heaven. “And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God ; and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life : and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” Rev. xx, 12; Dan. vii, 10. “Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of retnembrance was written before him for them that
feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.”  Mal. iii, 16. 

The book of life contains the names of all who become the special subjects of divine favor, See Dan. Xii, 1; Rev. iii, 5 ; Phil, iv, 3. In the other books are recorded sins, also the pardon of sins repented of, and forgiven with those good works necessary to secure the favor of God. This whole account stands, as written during the probation of every subject of special divine favor since the fall of man, till the time of the judgment of the house of God till Jesus enters the Most Holy to offer his blood for the blotting out of the forgiven sins of all the just. 

CHRIST OFFERS HIS BLOOD IN THE HOST HOLY FOR THE BLOTTING OUT OF THE SINS OF THE WHOLE ISRAEL OF GOD.

Christ is the only Saviour offered to the race of man. All who are saved will be saved through him. All, of every age, out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, who shall be redeemed, will be redeemed to God by the blood of Jesus Christ. His blood was shed for all. At the right hand of the Majesty in the heavens, he is ready to plead the cause of every repenting sinner, and through him sinners may find pardon. He also offers his blood in the Most Holy for the blotting out of the sins of all the just of every age. 

“For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh; how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.” Heb. ix. 13-16.

In the great day of atonement for the blotting out of the sins of all of every age, the cases of patriarchs and prophets, and sleeping saints of all past ages will come up in judgment, the books will be opened, and they will be judged according to the things written in the books. It is thus, at the end of the 1335 days, [Dan. xii, 13] that 

DANIEL STANDS IN HIS LOT.

The first and second definitions of the word lot, as given by Webster, are. 1. “That which in human speech, is called Chance, hazard, fortune, but. in strictness of language, is the determination of Providence; as, the land shall be divided by lot. 2. That by which the fate or portion of one is determined; that by which an event is committed to chance, that is, to the determination of Providence; as, to cast lots; to draw lots.”...

... It will now be seen that Daniel does not stand in the “lot of his inheritance,” as it has been expressed, at the end of the 1335 days, but he stands in his lot in the decisions of the judgment of the righteous dead. 

When did those days end? Evidences are conclusive that the 1335 days ended with the 2300, with the Midnight Cry in 1844. Then the angel [Rev. x, 1-6] swore that time should be no longer. Time here cannot mean duration, as measured in months and years, for 1000 years are measured after this; but it must refer to prophetic time, which was the burden of the angel’s message. As Daniel was to stand in his lot at the end of the days, we must conclude that the judgment of the righteous dead commenced at that time, and has been progressing more than twelve years. 

When will the cases of the living saints pass in review in the investigative judgment of the house of God? This is a question worthy the candid and most solemn consideration of all who have a case pending in the court of heaven, and hope to overcome. In the order of heaven, we must look for their judgment to follow that of the dead, and to occur near the close of their probation. 

It is most reasonable to conclude that there is a special call to the remnant, and a special work to be performed by them, and for them, preparatory to the decisions of the judgment in regard to them, and that their salvation depends upon fully obeying the calls and counsel to them. And we most solemnly believe that this preparatory call and work is brought to view in the testimony to the Laodiceans, and parallel portions of the word of God. 

The judgment call and counsel to the Laodiceans finds them lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot. It finds them in a state where it is necessary for them to be zealous in the work of repentance, that they may find pardon, and obtain that preparation necessary to stand in the judgment. Those who do not fully receive and obey this testimony, but remain lukewarm, Christ will spue out of his mouth, or cast them from his favor and blot their names out of the book of life. The decisive hour is at hand. In this awful hour either sins or names will be blotted out. Those who are zealous and repent of all their sins buy the gold tried in the fire, true faith, the white raiment, the same as the wedding garment, or white linen, which is the righteousness of Jesus Christ that saints will be clothed with—but one place to buy it —Jesus says, buy of me, and have their eyes anointed with eye-salve, the anointing of the Holy Ghost, cwill have their sins blotted out, while those who remain careless, disobedient and lukewarm, will have their names blotted out of the book of life. Life and death are in this judgment call of the dear Saviour. It is life to fully receive it; death to be careless and neglect it. Now is the time to fully understand what it is to OVERCOME.

“He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.” Rev. iii. 5. 

The white raiment in this text is the same as that offered by the true Witness. Hence we conclude that the overcoming, which is necessary in order to have the names of the people of God retained in, and not blotted out of, the book of life, consists in obeying the testimony to the Laodiceans. 

Dear brethren, perfect faith by works, be clothed with the righteousness of Jesus Christ, and get the anointing of the Holy Ghost, which will enable you to see sin in its sinfulness, holiness in its beauty, and the path to life as straight and as narrow as it really is and retain these priceless treasures, for in this you overcome. And your names will be retained in the book of life, and Jesus, in the judgment of the living just, will confess your names before the Father, and your sins will be blotted out. 

We feel confident that but very few realize the consecration necessary to stand the judgment. Behold that dying saint. He first gives up the world and all its hopes. How carefully he reviews his past life, and confesses from the heart every wrong act and feeling. He then commits his family to the Lord, and himself he throws upon the mercy of God. 0 what a struggle! But when this work is done, Jesus smiles; and leaning upon the bosom of his Saviour, the saint breathes his life out sweetly there. His probation is closed, and his case rests till the record of his life is opened, and his case passes in review in the judgment. His sins were all repented of, therefore, in the great day of atonement, the blood of Jesus Christ can blot them out. 

A consecration every way as complete as this will be necessary in order for the names of the living saints to be retained in the book of life, and their sins blotted out. What a struggle to die to this world while in full strength! We feel confident that many will go with the people of God who will fail in their feeble efforts to overcome. But very few realize what a real Bible death to this world is. 0 church of Christ awake! arise! The judgment is passing! Very soon will your names either be confessed by Jesus Christ before his Father, or they will be blotted out of the book of life. Consecrate all to God, then you will be prepared to act your part in saving others from ruin. The great work of consecration now required is set forth in the following scriptures :

” Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord’s anger.” Zeph. ii, 3. 

” Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: and rend your heart and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God.” Joel ii, 12,13. 

“Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God. and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double-minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.” James iv. 6-10. 

“As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous therefore and repent.” 

We leave this subject for the present and give room for the pointed communications from Brn. Ingraham and Stone.

J. W.

http://investigativejudgment.wordpress. … hite-1857/


http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/R … pts&page=4


Loughborough links First Angel's message to Investigative Judgment.

Three years before James White wrote this, Loughborough wrote connecting the first angel&#39;s message with the pre-Advent judgment in the Sanctuary in heaven.

http://investigativejudgment.wordpress. … ough-1854/


Message edited by Don on May 31, 2009

Offline

#16 06-01-09 9:08 am

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

Don, this is too funny.

As I suspected, you are just playing games.  You are not able to have an honest and open discussion about the issues.  Neither was Goldstein.  You both are very similar in that way.  Pity.

I have asked you a number of direct, “yes” or “no” questions and you refuse to answer any of them.  You just ignore whatever you want and pretend that you are honestly participating when you obviously have another agenda.

So, I am going to ignore your double-talk and try this one more time.  Let’s see if you can stick to the issues and answer the questions without stonewalling? 

Questions for Pastor Don and all TSDA’s:

Are you finally convinced that the IJ is NOT the Judgment pillar in the 1st Angles Message?

YES or NO?

Do you understand that you have been misled all these years by the church on this point? 

Yes or NO?

Do you understand that TA is a flawed, dishonest, and impossible paradigm? 

Yes or No?

Don; just answer the questions with a simple “yes” or “no.” You can do it, I know you can.

The number 1-point of Adventist Reform was broken down for you so that you could respond with a yes or no.  But even this seemed too difficult.  But let’s try again, shall we? 

#1 Reform: Today the SDA church is teaching the wrong version of the Three Angels Messages. 

Don, do you agree? Yes or No? 

1a. Only the Protestant Gospel and the Second Coming are featured and contained in the original, Historic version of the 1st Angels message. 

Don, do you agree? Yes or No? 

1b. Thus "the hour of his Judgment has come" in Rev 14: 7 is ONLY a reference to the Second Coming, not to the IJ. 

Don, do you agree? Yes or No? 

1c. This means that Traditional Adventism is wrong. It does not have the support of Ellen White or the Pioneers.

Don, do you agree? Yes or No? 

Don’t tell us what you used to believe, but what you have now come to understand.  And don’t ask any more questions about this or that point.  You need to answer the questions about what you believe.

Just answer the questions and try to stay on point.

Good luck to you!

Tom

Offline

#17 06-01-09 12:05 pm

don
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,121

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

Don said:  Tom, I am not in court of law with you. We are simply presenting understandings. I have chosen not to give in to your demands for a yes or no answer. 

I have shown you James White's support of the Investigative Judgment, and you have chosen to ignore the evidence. And demand a "yes" or "no" from me.

I suggest that your assertion that the early Adventists did not teach the Investigative Judgment is incorrect.

-----------

Tom said:  "Are you finally convinced that the IJ is NOT the Judgment pillar in the 1st Angles Message?"

Don said:  Loughborough made the connection in 1854. James White taught the IJ in 1857. Did he link it to the First Angels' Message. I have seen no evidence that he did. It seems that James White believed the IJ nonetheless.

Tom said:  "Do you understand that you have been misled all these years by the church on this point?

Don said:  No, I don't feel misled. Better informed now, but not a big deal. After all, James White taught the IJ way back in 1857.

Tom said:  Do you understand that TA is a flawed, dishonest, and impossible paradigm?

Don said:  I am not convinced. All humanity is flawed, dishonest and impossibly wrong, including SDA Reform. 

Tom said:  #1 Reform: Today the SDA church is teaching the wrong version of the Three Angels Messages.

Don said:  We teach that Jesus is coming back. We teach that Babylon has fallen. We teach that the Commandments of God and the Faith of Jesus identify God's last day church. I agree with these teachings. Don't you?

Tom said:  1a. Only the Protestant Gospel and the Second Coming are featured and contained in the original, Historic version of the 1st Angels message.

Don said:  I see no problem with what you assert. But, early Adventists understood the Sanctuary in heaven to hold the answer to the 1844 disappointment. There is no doubt that this explanation became a pillar of Adventism.

Tom said:  1b. Thus "the hour of his Judgment has come" in Rev 14: 7 is ONLY a reference to the Second Coming, not to the IJ.

Don said:  Loughborough would disagree. James White supported Loughborough's teaching enough to publish it. Would you accuse James White of being a TSDA? Loughborough?

Tom said:  1c. This means that Traditional Adventism is wrong. It does not have the support of Ellen White or the Pioneers.

Don said:  The pioneers like James White, Ellen White and others supported the Investigative Judgment in the Heavenly Sanctuary teaching. This has been documented.

Tom, I have only begun my search of how the pioneers explained the Sanctuary in Heaven as the answer to their disappointment in 1844. James White, a founder of Seventh-day Adventism, taught the Investigative Judgment as a Biblical doctrine. Never do you see Elder White quoting from his wife on this. 

James White certainly was not infallible, but he is the best spokesperson for pioneer Adventism. You seem to want the pioneers on your side. Show me that what you claim is a major concern was a concern of James White, Ellen White, Joseph Bates or other of the pioneers.

Offline

#18 07-07-09 6:13 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

Just answer the questions and try to stay on point. 

Don said:  Tom, I am not in a court of law with you. 

It’s a good thing for you, because in a civil trial there is no such thing as pleading the 5th amendment or refusing to answer any questions. There is no stonewalling in a civil trial.  The judge will direct you to answer the questions or throw you in jail until you decide to talk.

Moreover, I am becoming more convinced that the only way the SDA’s will deal with the issues is if they are forced.  So be it.  It would appear that they need to be hauled into court in order to make them confess and correct the record.  If that is the only way to get the truth out of the White Estate, of which you are defending and promoting, then I will accommodate, and so too will the Justice system.   

So be careful what you say, because you could easily become a witness in a trial about Consumer fraud, and then you would not be allowed to evade the questions and neither would anyone from the White Estate.  Also understand that your words on this, and other forums, can be used as evidence at such a trial, so be careful. 

The SDA’s are not above the law nor can their leaders publish and say whatever they want with impunity.  There are many laws that govern corporate behavior, and non-profits are not exempt from such civil requirements.  Consumer Fraud is a serious matter and the White Estate could not be guiltier.

The White Estate is a den of deception.  They are guilty of perpetrating a massive consumer fraud about Ellen White on the public.  They have made millions of dollars off this fraud, even as they have confused and ruined many lives with their published lies.  At some point, this discussion is going to move into the courtroom if the leaders continue to stonewall and double talk.  At some point, if the White Estate refuses to confess and correct the record, they will be forced by the courts to do so.

But what does this say about Adventists?  It says that they are dishonest, cultic, and greedy.   How disgusting and unchristian.  They are truly wretched and blind, just as prophecy foretold.

Don said:  We are simply presenting understandings. 

While you may be trying to present your opinion, and that of the hierarchy, I am presenting facts and evidence.  Don’t confuse your opinions, or even what the church teaches, with the facts. They are very different.

You are simply trying to defend your dishonest employer, and trying to justify the wrong choices you have made in your life.  But I am giving you the evidence that overturns everything you thought you knew.  I can prove my positions, while you can only dodge the issues and refuse to answer the most simple and telling of questions.

So while you may be succeeding in keeping your job and fooling yourself in the process, few others will be impressed with such a pathetic defense that has fallen flat for all to see. 

While you are here to defend the status quo and fight against much needed REFORM, we have been having a serious discussion about how to REFORM the self-destructing SDA church.  This public discussion has been moving forward for years, on a number of web sites, and you are just one of many that have tried to show that the SDA’s are correct and that they need not repent or reform.   

So I am not “simply presenting some understandings;” rather, I have laid out some very serious charges against the White Estate and the General Conference, as well as the necessary reforms that must be implemented to save the Advent Movement and get it back on track.   

I am proving that Traditional Adventism is a fraud that has no support from Ellen White.   While you are exposing yourself as a wolf in sheep’s clothing who cannot deal with the truth.

In fact, this thread was started because someone was trying to defend TA, and I proved that there is no defense for this false paradigm that Ellen White does not support.  You have failed to rebut anything, much less prove your case for TA. 

You work for the church and thus you see it as your duty to defend those that pay you.   

So you are not “simply presenting your understanding,” rather, you are dishonestly trying to defend the fraud of the White Estate as well as the false doctrines of TA.  This is who you are and this is what you do.  This is why you are here.   

So why not be honest?  You are an apologist for TA, while I am its worst critic.

In fact, you tried to defend and rehabilitate Goldstein about 1844 and the IJ.  But your propaganda fell flat for all to see.  When will you repent?

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1166507859

Let all see what Pastor Don, the loyal SDA is really all about.  He is a hardcore supporter of TA, and he has no plans to change, (at least not until he retires).

So I repeat what I said to you a number of years ago.  Nothing has changed.  You are still a wolf in sheep’s clothing, pimping false doctrine for your corrupt hierarchical employer.  Pity.

Here is what was posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 9:22 am

Don the SDA Pharisee said: I have served as a pastor and a teacher for over 30 years. I presently work for the church.

Tom Norris replied:  Don, you are part of the problem. You have been promoting so much false doctrine for so long that you don't know anything else, nor do you want to find anything new. 

You think the SDA&#39;s have the best doctrines of all, when they really have the worst. You think that the SDA's are the favorite of heaven, when heaven thinks they are "wretched."

I choose to believe the Word, not your delusions, for which you are paid to promote. You and the rest of the Traditional minded SDA's are living in an Old Covenant world of your own making. It is sad, cultic, and disgusting. 

Don said: What I offer in my posts, like the one above, is personal understanding and vision. 

Ha! What you offer is the same old lame SDA apologetics that aren't worth a hoot. You offer double-talk and evasion, even as you defend one false doctrine after another. So you offer nothing honest or of value. 

You are a wolf in sheep's clothing. A Protestant fraud that has found a good home with a dishonest cult that refuses to repent when confronted with the facts. So you and the SDA's are made for each other. And so too all those that prefer Old Covenant double-talk to Gospel truth.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1193692494

So Don, nothing has changed with you over the years.  It is clear what you are all about and why you are here.  No one should be fooled by your dishonest double-talk and continued refusal to answer the most simple of questions about SDA history and theology.  You are just like Goldstein, but with more patience.   

Don said:  I have chosen not to give in to your demands for a "yes" or "no" answer. 

Ha!  This is comical.  Goldstein played this same game—and also embarrassed himself in public.  Do you think you can do better than Goldstein did?  Hardly. 

A Simple Question

Why so defensive about the same question that I have been asking for years?  How can such a simple question about SDA history be so hard for the SDA’s?   

After all, there are 11 additional points of discussion besides this first one about the definition of the 1st Angels Message.  If the leaders can’t face up to this first issue, and they cannot, what hope is there for the rest?  Not much.

It’s hard to get any more basic and simple than asking for the definition of the 1st Angels Message.  How hard can that be for an SDA Pastor or apologist to answer?

So pardon me for laughing out loud, it just proves the point that those that work for the church, are not able to deal with the real issues.  Nor do they want to have any honest discussion about church history or doctrine.   They are great pretenders.

Why?  Because they realize that they can’t refute Dr. Ford or Tom Norris.  Nor do they want anything to do with Adventist Reform, so they think that by ignoring the issues, all will be well.   Thus they play a game of diversion and double-talk.

Let all understand that Pastor Don is a Protestant Pretender; loyal to the many errors of TA, even as he supports the corrupt and dishonest White Estate.  He has a false view of the Gospel and the Judgment as well as the Three Angels Messages and many other things.  He is an enemy of Ellen White, Adventism, and the Gospel, and thus he will always remain until he repents of these fatal errors.

Goldstein also refused to address the very same issues, for the very same reasons. He too ran away, refusing to answer this simple question about the definition of the 1st Angels Message.   

So you are just following the evil example of all SDA apologists and propagandist.  You have long ago mortgaged your soul to the Denomination, and they own you, just as they do Goldstein and all the others.  So you must think, read, and speak the way they want you to.  I understand.  We all understand, even though I find it repugnant, dishonest, and cowardly.  I would not want to be in your shoes on the Judgment Day, -and neither will you.   

I have known for years that you are not really here to honestly discuss or embrace Adventist Reform.  Rather, you are here to defend Traditional Adventism and the many errors and sins of the hierarchy, of which you are a part.   

The Error of Stonewalling

Moreover, your refusal to honestly discuss the issues and answer the questions places you in clear violation of scripture.  This is also how the enemies of the Gospel acted.  They too refused to answer the questions in public for fear of being made to look foolish in front of their peers.   

It is the Pharisees that refused to honestly deal with the issues as they plotted against first century Gospel Reform.  It is the enemies of Christ that refused to debate the issues, all the while pretending to be following the will of God.  You act just like them.   

Matt. 22:46 No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question. 

Matt. 23:1  Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 

Matt. 23:2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;

Matt. 23:3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

Matt. 23:4 “They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.

Matt. 23:5 “But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.

Matt. 23:6 “They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues,

Matt. 23:7 and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men.

Matt. 23:8 “But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.

Matt. 23:9 “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

Matt. 23:10 “Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

Matt. 23:13  “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Matt. 23:14 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

Matt. 23:15  “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one 1aproselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

The SDA leaders, including all the Pastors, are as unsaved as were the Pharisees that faught against the Gospel.  Their egos are as big as those Sabbatarian blowhards that Jesus confronted and thus no SDA leaders deserves any respect, support, or praise from anyone.  Rather, they stand condemned as double-talking hypocrites and liars.   

Woe to you Pastor Don.  You are not fooling anyone but yourself.

Don said:  I have shown you James White's support of the Investigative Judgment, and you have chosen to ignore the evidence. And demand a "yes" or "no" from me. 

The question on the table was not about who supported the IJ, but rather, what is the definition of the 1st Angels Messages.   

What is the Judgment Pillar from Historic Adventism? How did the Pioneers, including James and Ellen White, define the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message?  THIS IS THE QUESTION.

Why would any SDA Pastor run from such a simple question about something so foundational and fundamental?   

Answer: Because you realize that you have been promoting impossible history and eschatology all your life.  To answer this question truthfully is to overturn Traditional Adventism that claims the IJ is the judgment pillar in the 1st Angels Message.

This is why Goldstein ran away from this discussion and why no SDA apologist or scholar dares enter this debate.  To truthfully answer this first simple question is to admit that the leaders have been promoting false doctrine and fraudulent history for generations.   

So rather than confess their great error and repent; they run from the facts that prove Glacier View to have been a complete and total farce.  Although TA has no support from the Pioneers, they refuse to admit this truth.

But running away from the issues does not solve anything.  In fact, it just proves that your position is hopelessly wrong in full view of everyone.  This is why we are having this discussion, so that all can see, that want to see.

Pastor Don said:  I suggest that your assertion that the early Adventists did not teach the Investigative Judgment is incorrect. 

Ha!  This is too funny.  First you avoid the question and refuse to answer it, and then you try and turn the question into something else, even as you deliberately misstate my position in the process.   

Nice try.  You would make a good defense lawyer, because such twisting of the facts is their stock in trade.  But we are not in court and thus you are only exposing yourself as a very slippery and dishonest apologist.  Which is what it takes to qualify as a good SDA Pastor today.  The SDA’s have elevated double-talk into an art form.  It is what they do best.   

Such behavior is wrong and against the Word:

Psa. 119:113  I hate those who are double-minded,

1Tim. 3:8  Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, 

James 4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

First, I never asserted that “the early Adventists did not teach the Investigative Judgment.”  Of course they did, it cannot be denied.  So stop placing false words in my mouth.  Such blatant dishonesty and misdirection will not help you case.

Second, the IJ was not invented until 1857, long after the 1st Angels Message, as well as the 2nd and the 3rd.  So the question was about the Judgment Pillar in 1st Angels message; which Message was discovered in 1818 and terminated in the spring of 1844. 

So why are you trying to discuss anything outside the time period of the 1st Angels Message?  Unless you are going to claim that the SDA’s invented the IJ in 1857, and then retroactively placed in back into the 1st Angels Message?   

But you would be wasting your time because others have tried this explanation before, but to no avail.  Why?  Because the Pioneers never claimed that the IJ was the Judgment Pillar from the 1st Angels Message, nor did they ever contemplate placing it there at any time.  Only the Second Coming was viewed as the Judgment Pillar in Rev 14.

Thus my question about the definition of the Judgment pillar in the 1st Angels Message is limited to the time period when there was no IJ.   Which means that the IJ cannot possibly become part of Historic Adventism, much less a doctrinal pillar from Rev 14: 7.  It never existed as a concept or a doctrine until the late 1850’s.

Which means that the TA is built on a great misunderstanding of history.  It means that what all SDA’s have taught for generations is impossible and wrong.  It has no support from the Pioneers, much less the Reformers or the Apostles.

The Takoma Park apologists played so many dishonest games, that they have confused themselves and everyone else.  Now all it takes is one simple question about the definition of the 1st Angels Message to overturn TA and prove to all that the SDA leaders incompetent, dishonest, and full of arrogant double-talk.

This first point in the 12-point Reform Agenda exposes TA as impossible and Glacier View as a farce. Anyone who claims that the IJ is the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message is not only wrong, but they have repudiated Adventism, as well as the Protestant Faith.  Ellen White never took such a position, and neither did James White or Uriah Smith, or any of them.  To do so is to repudiate SDA eschatology.

So you are on the wrong side of history and doctrine.  All those that support TA have made serious mistake.  Their only hope is to stop defending a lie and repent.  Their only hope is to repudiate the false Gospel and false judgment of the White Estate and the Review.

Jer. 5:3 O LORD, do not Your eyes look for truth?  You have smitten them, But they did not weaken;     You have consumed them, But they refused to take correction.  They have made their faces harder than rock;    They have refused to repent.

Acts 17:30 “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

Rev. 3:19  Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

Tom Norris asked Don:  Are you finally convinced that the IJ is NOT the Judgment pillar in the 1st Angles Message? 

Don replied:  Loughborough made the connection in 1854. James White taught the IJ in 1857. Did he link it to the First Angels Message? I have seen no evidence that he did. It seems that James White believed the IJ nonetheless. 

Stop the double-talk and diversion!  You are wasting everyone’s time.  The IJ was never viewed as Miller’s Judgment pillar in Rev 14:7.  The fact that it was added to the 5th Pillar, in connection with the 3rd Angels Message, the one about the Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary, hardly makes it a Pillar in the #2 position,in the 1st Angels Message.

The record of prophetic history is clear and unambiguous.  The IJ was NEVER viewed by the SDA’s as being the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message.  It never happened no matter how many times the dishonest and incompetent SDA’s pretend otherwise.  They can publish books supporting TA until the end of the world, and still will not change the facts.

"The proclamation of the first, second, and third angels messages has been located by the Word of Inspiration. Not a peg or pin is to be removed. No human authority has any more right to change the location of these messages than to substitute the New Testament for the Old.  The Old Testament is the gospel in figures and symbols.  The New Testament is the substance.  One is as essential as the other."  Ms 32, 1896, p. 1. Testimony Concerning the Views of Prophecy Held by Brother John Bell, 1896.

The modern SDA’s need to repent and become honest.  They need to tell the truth about their own history and theology.  At this point in time, they are the world’s greatest double-talkers, liars, and frauds.  No one will receive Eternal Life because of what they teach, so what is the point?  Why do they exist?

The evidence is clear, and so too the writings of Ellen White and Uriah Smith.  The IJ was NEVER viewed as the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message.  Never, never, never.  Which changes everything for SDA’s, even condemning their leaders for what they have done.

Tom Norris said:  Do you understand that you have been misled all these years by the church on this point? 

Don replied:  No, I don&#39;t feel misled. Better informed now, but not a big deal. After all, James White taught the IJ way back in 1857. 

Spoken like a guilty man going to hell.  Your paycheck is safe, but not your soul.  Pity that you do not think this is a problem.

Those that refuse to open their eyes will never see, and thus they will remain blind forever.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?” 

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

Tom Norris said:  Do you understand that TA is a flawed, dishonest, and impossible paradigm? 

Don replied:  I am not convinced. All humanity is flawed, dishonest and impossibly wrong, including SDA Reform. 

How can the blind see?  How can they be convinced of anything?  Just because TA has turned out to be worthless garbage, it does not mean that there is no Gospel truth for the world.  That is just your sour grapes version of things.

Furthermore, if the 12-point Reform Agenda is wrong, why can’t anyone prove it?  In fact, no SDA apologist or scholar can seem to answer the very first point, much less refute what follows.   

After all these public discussions about Adventist Reform, the hierarchical minded SDA’s are still trying to figure out how to address the first point, which baffles them. Which is why they run from the issues and hide.

So how do you know that AReform is wrong if you can’t refute the first point?  On what basis can you make such a bold assertion?

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Moreover, it is not my responsibility to “convince” you of anything.  If you don’t want to open your eyes and see, that is your decision, not mine.  You are free to play the part of the Pharisees and Papists, which seems more comfortable and natural for many.

I have laid out the facts for all to see.  You either grasp them or you don’t.  Most SDA minds have been hardened about certain points for years, and thus they are too proud, lazy, or stupid to admit error, repent, and embrace Gospel reform.  Pity.

This was the problem with Uriah Smith and many others in Battle Creek.  They had assumed certain points about SDA theology that they considered sacred and beyond question, error, or revision when that was not the case at all.  This is exactly what you and all the SDA leaders are also doing about the IJ.   

Note this:  After reaffirming that the “schoolmaster” in Galatians 3 was the moral law, Ellen White wrote: 

“An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis [1888] against the Lord’s message through Brethren Waggoner and Jones. By exciting that opposition, Satan succeeded in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them.” 

“The enemy prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world.”   

Selected Messages, book 1, pp. 234, 235 <BR> <BR>

To ask for the definition of the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message today is the same as Waggoner asking Smith to define the law in Galatians in 1888.  Smith’s definition was very wrong, and Waggoner knew it.  But yet Smith and Company bet everything that the SDA’s had it correct, even though Ellen White was screaming the opposite and telling them all to admit they wrong and repent.  But they would not repent.

Smith lost the bet, and the Battle Creek Empire collapsed as a result.

Likewise, the modern SDA’s have bet everything on their false assertion that the IJ is the Judgment Pillar from the 1st Angels Message.  Therefore, to remove it is to destroy the foundation of the Three Angels Messages and supposedly repudiate Ellen White.   

But as Dr. Ford, and Tom Norris have correctly pointed out, the IJ was never part of the 1st Angels Message—at any time-- and thus the IJ does not have any prophetic credentials as claimed.  It is not, not, not the Judgment Pillar in the Adventist Apocalyptic, and it can never be such a thing.

But the Takoma Park leaders, like the ones in Battle Creek, were certain that their critics could not be correct.  After all, the White Estate and the Review had been teaching for many years that the IJ was located in the 1st Angels Message and thus it was established by Prophecy and could not be questioned, much less removed.  Blah, blah, blah...

How could they be wrong about such a point?  How could Ellen White?  But they were very wrong.  In fact, Ellen White never supported this position, but they were too incompetent and dishonest to know it.  And now they refuse to admit the facts.

Thus the leaders plunged ahead with Glacier View, certain that they were doing the right thing. But just like in 1888, the leaders failed to prove their case and confusion, division, and great schism resulted.

And guess what?  Just like in 1888, the leaders today still refuse to admit their error at Glacier View.  Instead, they ignored and suppressed Ellen White, and exiled their critics.  They won the debate by force, even as they lost the high ground and exposed themselves as dishonest and corrupt.  The SDA’s have repeated their past errors, and with the same sad results.

So truth is what it is, and so too history, regardless of how many refuse to admit it.  TA does not have the support of Ellen White any more than did Uriah Smiths twisted theology.  TA is from the devil, not God.  It represents a major departure from Historic Adventism and the Protestant Faith.   

Ellen White correctly condemns all that embrace the fraud of TA.  Thus, the IJ has become a doctrine of the devil, the source for a false version of the Three Angels Messages that only leads to hell.

&#34;Let no one presume to move a pin or a foundation stone from the structure.  Those who attempt to undermine the pillars of our faith are among those of whom the Bible says, that 'in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.'"

Letter 87, 1905, pp. 2, 3. To Elder and Mrs. S. N.Haskell, February 25, 1905.

"The first, second, and third angels messages are all linked together.  The evidences of the abiding, ever-living truth of these grand messages, that mean so much to us, that have awakened such intense opposition from the religious world, cannot be extinguished."

"Satan is constantly seeking to cast his hellish shadow about these messages, so that the remnant people of God shall not clearly discern their import, their time, and place; but they live, and are to exert their power upon our religious experience while time shall last."

The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, page 926, paragraph 3.

"Not a pin is to be moved from the foundations of our faith. Truth is still truth. Those who become uncertain will drift into erroneous theories, and will finally find themselves infidel in regard to the past evidence we have had of what is truth. The old way marks must be preserved, that we lose not our bearings.

Letters 395, 1906 p. 4. to Elder S. M. Cobb, December 25,1906.&#41;

Woe is the SDA’s if they refuse to repent and return to the “Old Waymarks.”  They are finished if they do not repent.

Tom Norris said:  #1 Reform: Today the SDA church is teaching the wrong version of the Three Angels Messages. 

Don replied:  We teach that Jesus is coming back. We teach that Babylon has fallen. We teach that the Commandments of God and the Faith of Jesus identify God's last day church. I agree with these teachings. Don't you? 

Ha!  I agree that you are a slippery wolf that refuses to deal honestly with the issues.  Your ability to double talk is masterful, the result of many years practice.   No doubt your employers are proud.   

Too bad such behavior is not a fruit of the Spirit.   

The first Angels Message is not up for debate or revision.  To be an SDA means that one has to embrace certain key doctrines from Millerite history “or have no part in the matter.”

Listen to Ellen White make this point:

“In like manner those who have had no experience in the first and second angels messages must receive them from others who had an experience and followed down through the messages."

"As Jesus was rejected, so I saw that these messages have been rejected. And as the disciples declared that there is salvation in no other name under heaven, given among men, so also should the servants of God faithfully and fearlessly warn those who embrace but a part of the truths connected with the third message, that they must gladly receive all the messages as God has given them, or have no part in the matter."

Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 188, 189, Chapter Title: Spiritual Gifts. 1858.

Those that claim to be SDA have a burden to meet.  And it has nothing to do with having your name on the church books.  To be an SDA is to embrace the historical paradigm of the Three Angels Messages, and the 7 doctrinal pillars contained within. Those that do not, are not SDA.  Regardless what they think or say.

"Miller and his associates fulfilled prophecy and gave a message which Inspiration had foretold should be given to the world, but which they could not have given had they fully understood the prophecies pointing out their disappointment, and presenting another message to be preached to all nations before the Lord should come."

"The first and second angel's messages were given at the right time and accomplished the work which God designed to accomplish by them."  GC.405.

Those that deny this viewpoint, by claiming the IJ part of historic Adventism are guilty of tearing down the foundations of the Advent Movement.  More than that, they are doing it in a dishonest and “underhanded” manner.

Why would those that claim to be SDA destroy the very “waymarks” which define and empower them?  Don, you have been doing this for the last 30 years and the White Estate has been doing it much longer than that. Why?

Ellen White has the same question for you:

“What influence would lead men at this stage of our history to work in an underhand, powerful way to tear down the foundation of our faith--the foundation that was laid at the beginning of our work by prayerful study of the Word and by revelation?”

“Upon this foundation we have been building for the past fifty years. Do you wonder that when I see the beginning of a work that would remove some of the pillars of our faith, I have something to say?” 

“I must obey the command, 'Meet it' . .. Messages of every order and kind have been urged upon Seventh-day Adventists, to take the place of the truth which, point by point, has been sought out by prayerful study, and testified to by the miracle-working power of the Lord."

“But the waymarks which have made us what we are, are to be preserved, and they will be preserved, as God has signified through His Word and the testimony of His Spirit.”

“He calls upon us to hold firmly, with the grip of faith, to the fundamental principles that are based upon unquestionable authority.”

Selected Messages Book 1, page 206-208

Those that support TA have placed their own legalistic spin on things. They have dared to change fulfilled Prophecy and thus they are enemies of Ellen White.  They are not SDA, regardless what they think.  Which means that the SDA Community is being instructed by Ellen White to turn away from the hierarchy and from the double-talking Pastors that promote both Pluralism and a false Gospel and false Judgment.   

Listen to Ellen White on this point:

"Listen not a moment to the interpretations that would loosen one pin, remove one pillar, from the platform of truth." Letter 230, 1906, p. 4. 

To Elders of the Battle Creek Church, and to Ministers and Physicians, July 5, 1906.  1MR 54.4

If Adventism is true, then Miller’s 1st Angels Message was part of God’s prophetic plan.  Thus, the twin pillars of the Protestant Gospel and the Judgment as the Second Coming can never be changed.  Least of all for a Roman Catholic Gospel and a Judgment of works in heaven.  This is absurd.

"Not a pin is to be moved from the foundations of our faith. Truth is still truth. Those who become uncertain will drift into erroneous theories, and will finally find themselves infidel in regard to the past evidence we have had of what is truth. The old way marks must be preserved, that we lose not our bearings."

Letters 395, 1906 p. 4. to Elder S. M. Cobb, December 25,1906.

There is only one version of the Three Angels Messages, just as there is only one true Gospel.  Any that claim the IJ to be a pillar in the 1st Angels Message are not SDA, because there is no such doctrine in Rev 14.  They are repudiating Ellen White as well as the Prophetic, Gospel Fundamentals that define SDA eschatology.

So guess what Don?  You are not a real SDA.  No Adventist Pastor can make such a claim when they think the IJ is located in the 1st Angels Message.  They are fooling themselves and the public, even as they have misrepresented the very Messages that define and empower the Advent movement.  They are enemies of Ellen White, not friends.

Tom Norris said:  1a. Only the Protestant Gospel and the Second Coming are featured and contained in the original, Historic version of the 1st Angels message.   

Don said:  I see no problem with what you assert.

I see a huge problem!   

If what is asserted is true, and it is, then SDA’s have a big problem.  Why?  Because they have been teaching that the IJ is the Judgment pillar referenced in Rev 14: 7; and that this is what defines SDA’s and separates them for all others.  This is what Glacier View was all about.  But it is not true, nor has it ever been true.   

The SDA’s have been promoting mythical doctrines and false eschatology that has zero support from Ellen White and the Pioneers.  It is time that the Adventist Community comprehends this problem that their incompetent and dishonest leaders have created.

So there is a very real problem here, one that overturns Glacier View and TA and condemns every SDA Pastor, teacher, and all the leaders.   

Either the IJ is the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message or it is not.  If not, then the SDA’s will have to repent for Glacier View and repudiate TA.   

The IJ is not a pillar in the Three Angels Messages, much less in the 1st one.  And there is nothing that anyone can do or say to change this historical fact that will stand until the end of the world.  TA is a fraud.  It is not true.  The SDA leaders have deceived and misled the Adventist Community—in the name of Ellen White no less, and there is no excuse for what has taken place.  It is a great sin.

Don said:  But, early Adventists understood the Sanctuary in heaven to hold the answer to the 1844 disappointment. There is no doubt that this explanation became a pillar of Adventism. 

You are missing the point and trying to avoid the question.  The change to Dan 8:14, which corrected Miller’s error that the earth was the Sanctuary to be cleansed with fire, has nothing to do with the DEFINITION of the 1st Angels Message, or the # 2 Pillar about the Judgment.  You are trying to discuss the #5 pillar about the Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary.

So stop the double-talk and diversion and answer the question.  How did the SDA’s define the 1st Angels Message?  What did THEY say was the Judgment Pillar?  What does the unanimous record of history prove on this point?

This is a pure question of history, not opinion.  The fact that you refuse to answer changes nothing.  It only exposes you as a double-talking, self-righteous fraud.  Your inability and refusal to deal with the facts proves that you are not being honest or fair.  But that is how all SDA Pastors act.  They are all full of error and cultic nonsense.  Ellen White has your number and so too do I.

Let all beware such wolves.

Tom said:  1b. Thus "the hour of his Judgment has come" in Rev 14: 7 is ONLY a reference to the Second Coming, not to the IJ. 

Don replied:  Loughborough would disagree. James White supported Loughborough's teaching enough to publish it. Would you accuse James White of being a TSDA? Loughborough? 

Ha!  This is not true.  All the Pioneers, including James White understood that the Second Coming was the great Message of the Advent Movement.  They never tried to change the original Judgment Pillar of the Second Advent into the IJ.  It never happened and you need to stop trying to change history and stop putting words in the mouths of the Pioneers.

Moreover, Loughborough was not a Founder or a leading theologian.  Whatever he says cannot be compared to what the Founders said and taught, and thus your attempt to divide the early SDA’s and set them one against another is dishonest and wrong.  This is Canright’s method of discussion and it is sad to see you stooping to his level.

If you read Bates, and the Whites, they make it very clear how the Judgment is defined in the 1st Angels Message.  So stop trying to find others to say what you want to hear.   

First off, they are not saying what you claim, and second, you need to quote the Founders, not those small players that followed them.

There is only one Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message, and it is not, not, not, the IJ.  You need to admit this fact and repent if you are able.  If not, you need to stop pretending that you are an SDA. Because you are not. 

Tom Norris said:  1c. This means that Traditional Adventism is wrong. It does not have the support of Ellen White or the Pioneers. 

Don replied:  The pioneers like James White, Ellen White and others supported the Investigative Judgment in the Heavenly Sanctuary teaching. This has been documented. 

Ha!  Your response is irrelevant and hardly addresses the point under discussion.  While James White and others did indeed “support” the further development of the 5th pillar, after 1857, they never went back and changed the #2 pillar, which is the only Judgment Pillar in all the Three Angels Messages.   

They never placed the IJ in the 1st Angels Message and until you can come to the place where you accept the facts of history and repent for the fraud of TA, you are a confused and lost man.  You stand in full opposition to Ellen White and the historic fundamentals that define SDA theology, and so too does anyone that thinks the IJ is part of the 1st Angels Message.

Don said:  Tom, I have only begun my search of how the pioneers explained the Sanctuary in Heaven as the answer to their disappointment in 1844. 

Don, what kind of games are you playing?  You have been an SDA minister for 30 years!  How can you pretend that you don’t understand how the Pioneers “explained the Heavenly Sanctuary”?  This is absurd.  How could you have been an SDA for so long and not know such things?

The fact that Tom Norris has proved you wrong may be stunning news to you, but don’t try and pretend that you were never informed about such things.  What you need to do is be honest and admit that you were taught incorrectly and repent. You know exactly what you were taught and what you believe and now it has been proven wrong for all to see.  Admit it and save your soul.

Why not be an honest man and admit that it was a mistake to think that the IJ is the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message?  Why not admit that Dr. Ford was correct all along and that TA is a fraud that does not have the support of the Pioneers.  Can you be honest about these things?  Can you say that Goldstein is wrong and so too the White Estate and Review? I guess not.

Don said:  James White, a founder of Seventh-day Adventism, taught the Investigative Judgment as a Biblical doctrine. Never do you see Elder White quoting from his wife on this. 

Once again, you are dodging the issue and avoiding the question.  While it is true that James White developed and embraced the IJ, in the late 1850’s, that does not answer the question about how he DEFINED the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message.   

He never taught that the IJ changed Millers original Judgment Pillar, which they all claimed could never be changed.  Thus the IJ was not a replacement doctrine for the # 2 Judgment pillar, but something very different, connected to a different pillar in a different Message.  The fact that it has turned out to be wrong is beside the point under discussion.

So you need to admit the facts and stop trying to squirm out of your predicament with silly diversions and double talk.  The IJ was never a Pillar in the 1st Angels Message as the incompetent and legalistic Takoma Park apologists have taught.  They are wrong, and so too their Gospel, which is located in the #1 pillar.

So try as you might, no amount of double-talk and evasion will work.  The IJ was NEVER a pillar in the 1st Angels Message, and that means TA is a silly farce, promoted by incompetent and dishonest Pharisees.

Don said:  James White certainly was not infallible, but he is the best spokesperson for pioneer Adventism. You seem to want the pioneers on your side. 

Who said that either James or Ellen White were “infallible”?  Not me or them.  So I don’t know why you would even say such a thing.   

What I am saying is that neither of them, at any time, ever placed the IJ in the 1st Angels Message.  In fact, they both make it clear that this could never happen, even as Ellen White warns the church repeatedly that these historic doctrines cannot be removed or changed.

The Pioneers are on my side, and the side of Dr. Ford.  They are not on your side about much of anything.  Why?  Because TA is a fraud.  Neither Ellen nor James White supports what the White Estate has been teaching about the definition of the Judgment or the Gospel in the 1st Angels Message.  Nor does she support Hermeneutics the way the church teaches.

Dr. Ford was not only correct at Glacier View.  He was defending the original, true, and authentic version of the Three Angels Messages.  He was telling the truth about church history and doctrine, as well as how to view Ellen White’s writings.   

It was the leaders who were wrong on every point. It was the White Estate that was repudiating Ellen White, even as they were also hiding thousands of her 1888 documents from the church in order to win the debate.   

The bottom line is this; Traditional Takoma Park Adventism is a farce and a fraud.  It was never true at any time. Rather, it was based on one lie after another, even on the massive suppression and manipulation of Ellen White’s writings by the White Estate.  This is called Consumer Fraud.  It is illegal.  It will not stand.

These are stunning fact that you don’t want to admit.  But they are what they are.  The General Conference had been running a criminal enterprise out of the White Estate all these years.  Who knew?

The modern SDA church is not based on the teachings of the Pioneers about the Three Angels Messages; rather, it is based on the fraud of Arthur White.  And on a legalistic counterfeit that places the IJ where it can never reside.   

Ellen White would never support such garbage, which is why the White Estate had to keep so many things secret and hidden.   

So Don, don’t shoot the messenger.  I am just giving you the facts.  If you were honest you would not try to dodge them.  But SDA Pastors are not honest.  They think that sincerity and repetition can make myths become true.  But this is not how it works.

Don said:  Show me that what you claim is a major concern, was a concern of James White, Ellen White, Joseph Bates or other of the pioneers? 

Wow!  I can’t believe that you have to ask such a question.   

I can’t believe that you don’t understand the importance that the Pioneers placed on making sure that the SDA’s correctly understood the Three Angels Messages.  There was nothing more important to them.  In fact, Ellen White makes it clear that the proper understanding of these messages determines our Eternal life. <BR> <BR>

"All should understand the truths contained in these messages; for they are essential to salvation. We shall have to study earnestly in order to understand these truths; and our power to learn and comprehend will be taxed to the utmost." 

Letter 97, 1902, p. 2. To Elder E. J. Waggoner, July 7, 1902.

Ellen White was consistent her whole life about the importance and necessity of the Three Angels Messages.  From her early days to the end of her life, there was nothing more important.

&#34;I saw a company who stood well guarded and firm, giving no countenance to those who would unsettle the established faith of the body. God looked upon them with approbation. 

“I was shown three steps-- the first, second, and third angels messages.”

“Said my accompanying angel, ‘Woe to him who shall move a block or stir a pin of these messages. The true understanding of these messages is of vital importance.’"

Early Writings of Ellen G. White, 1858, also known as: Spiritual Gifts / and The Great Controversy. page 158, Chapter Title: A Firm Platform.

At the end of her life Ellen White made it clear that the historic doctrines “that have made us a people” must always be “kept before the people.”

"Let the truths that are the foundation of our faith be kept before the people. … We are now to understand what the pillars of our faith are,--the truths that have made us as a people what we are, leading us on step by step. Review and Herald, May 25, 1905.

"Not a pin is to be moved from the foundations of our faith. Truth is still truth. Those who become uncertain will drift into erroneous theories, and will finally find themselves infidel in regard to the past evidence we have had of what is truth. The old way marks must be preserved, that we lose not our bearings."

Letters 395, 1906 p. 4. to Elder S. M. Cobb, December 25,1906.

Foundations Removed

Although Ellen is clear that the Three Angels Messages are not to be tampered with or removed, this is what has taken place.  Something has gone terribly wrong with the modern SDA’s.   

The leaders have brushed Ellen White aside, even as they made all manner of revisions and changes to the very Fundamentals that the Pioneers said could never be changed.  Of course this did not go unnoticed.  So when concerned voices tried to protest, like that of Dr. Ford, they were silenced and censored.   

No one was going to tell the SDA leaders what was truth and what was not.  They knew what they were doing and no one had dare question their wisdom.  Should anyone challenge them, they would be treated harshly and even exiled. 

No wonder that SDA’s no longer know what the real fundamentals are, and what they are not.  How could the Adventist Community possibly know that their leaders were leading them into forbidden areas and that they were repudiating Ellen White and everything that she stands for?  But Dr. Ford knew, and so too did some others.   

In fact, everyone that claimed TA wrong, understood the mind of Ellen White, even though many had no idea that this was also her position.  The White Estate had so effectively deceived the Adventist Community that few had any idea how off track the church had become.

Even today the White Estate does not understand Ellen White’s mind or her writings.  They are deaf to the voice of Ellen White, which voice they do not know.  She is a stranger to them, even as they have no idea how to explain themselves anymore, much less the Adventist Apocalyptic. 

Today, "the Old way marks" are long gone and the SDA’s have clearly lost their bearings.  They are disoriented, lost, and confused, as well as very dishonest.  Their Pastors, like Pastor Don, does not understand Adventist history or theology correctly, much less the Gospel or the Three Angels Messages.   

The White Estate has betrayed Ellen White by suppression and fraud and thus few have any idea how to define or explain the Gospel, much less the Three Angels Messages.   This is a recipe for catastrophe, and the SDA’s should be very fearful of a total collapse if they continue to refuse to repent and return to the true Fundamentals that alone can save them.   

Ellen White Has A Message for all SDA’s.  They must listen to her and understand their great error.  They must repent and return to the Fundamentals or else.

“We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we shall forget the way the Lord has led us, and His teaching in our past history.” Life Sketches, p. 196.

The Advent Movement deserves better.  And so too does Ellen White.  The Adventist Community should not put up with this gross mismanagement, dishonesty, and incompetence any more.  The SDA church cannot survive any more apostasy from its leaders, who have insulted the Pioneers and disrespected the Spirit.   

This massive and long running fraud in the White Estate is the last straw for this corrupt organization that is not really Adventist at all.  The SDA leaders have ruined the Advent Movement and it is time that we all admit the facts and demand serious, honest reform.   

"The first, second, and third angels' messages are all linked together. The evidences of the abiding, ever-living truth of these grand messages, that mean so much to us, that have awakened such intense opposition from the religious world, cannot be extinguished."

"Satan is constantly seeking to cast his hellish shadow about these messages, so that the remnant people of God shall not clearly discern their import, their time, and place; but they live, and are to exert their power upon our religious experience while time shall last."

The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, page 926, paragraph 3.

It is time for the Adventist Community to understand and embrace the genuine version of the Three Angels Messages.  This is the only way to save them from certain self-destruction and continued schism.  It is the only way to repair the damage caused by Glacier View and the only way to prepare the church for the Second Coming and the Time of Trouble that precedes it.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

I hope this helps.   

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Offline

#19 07-08-09 7:54 am

don
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,121

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

What did Ellen White consider to be the pillars of Adventism?


Chap. 57 - Standing by the Landmarks

Ms. 13, 1889,

Standing by the Landmarks, 1889     

While the Conference was in session at Minneapolis, there was coming over the wires from B. C., decided messages from Brother Butler to bring the people to a decision then at that meeting, on the controverted point of the law in Galatians. & 1888   

This matter was treated as though there was no one or ones at that meeting through whom God could work. This is a condition of things brought about by human agencies. Could not those in Battle Creek trust the Lord to work in that meeting? Had the Lord no one on the ground through whom He could communicate?     

It is well for us all to give the Lord some chance to work on human minds, and not to feel that one human mind must mold all other human minds. (1888 516.)   

Now at that meeting were many different characters and as many different temperaments. There was a striving about words to no profit, and the spirit manifested was uncourteous, ungentlemanly, and not Christlike. I know that hearts were spotted and stained with sin, yet they were the most zealous and vehement in spirit in that meeting. Then how could there have been any fairness in decisions made at that meeting? I have been shown that it was the same ruling spirit that was revealed in the condemnation of Christ. When the Papists were in controversy with men who took their stand on the Bible for proof of doctrines they considered it a matter that only death could settle. I could see a similar spirit cherished in the hearts of our brethren and I would not give room to it for an hour. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 1888 516.4

I know Satan was just as busy among some of those assembled to make false impressions, and to lead the people to arrive at false conclusions, and to misapply and wrest the Scriptures from their true meaning, as he was in the days when the Saviour was upon the earth. Then what kind of a condition was that people in to decide what is truth?  1888 517.1 

At that meeting, in rooms where the brethren were accommodated and congregated there was not much praying, though some rooms were an exception. I was taken to one room and bade to hear the conversation of men who were in the position regarded as mouthpiece for God. I heard the jesting, the sarcastic remarks in regard to the messengers and the message--that doctrine that differed from their ideas of truth; and I was told there was a witness in every room as surely as the witness was in Belshazzar's palace at that festival, mingled with the praise of idols and of wine.  The angel on that occasion traced the characters over against the walls of the palace; so there was a witness writing in the books of heaven the unkind speeches of those who knew not what manner of spirit they were of.  1888 517.2     

There was opened to the minds precious light that should have been a blessing to them, but God could not do many mighty works in that conference because of their unbelief. There should have been at that meeting patient study of the Scriptures with fasting and earnest prayer before God that we might see eye to eye. This is the only way. There can be no safety in contention of spirit in investigating points of truth, as it must be done in the spirit John had when he said, He must increase, but I must decrease. More of Jesus, less of self. And as the investigation continues in the spirit of Christ it will be at last all of Jesus, none of self.  1888 517.3     

There is a bracing of the mind, an opposition of the soul brought to the investigation of the Scriptures. This leaves such souls where Satan can impress them. In Minneapolis God gave precious gems of truth to His people in new settings. This light from heaven by some was rejected with all the stubbornness the Jews manifested in rejecting Christ, and there was much talk about standing by the old landmarks. But there was evidence they knew not what the old landmarks were. There was evidence and there was reasoning from the word that commended itself to the conscience; but the minds of men were fixed, sealed against the entrance of light, because they had decided it was a dangerous error removing the old landmarks when it was not moving a peg of the old landmarks, but they had perverted ideas of what constituted the old landmarks."  1888 518.     

The passing of the time in 1844 was a period of great events, opening to our astonished eyes.  the cleansing of the sanctuary transpiring in heaven, and having decided relation to God's people upon the earth, the first and second angels's messages and the third, unfurling the banner on which was inscribed,  The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. 

One of the landmarks under this message was the temple of God, seen by His truth-loving people in heaven, and the ark containing the law of God.  The light of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment flashed its strong rays in the pathway of the transgressors of God's law.  The nonimmortality of the wicked is an old landmark.b I can call to mind nothing more that can come under the head of the old landmarks.

All this cry about changing the old landmarks is all imaginary.  1888 518.2     

Now at the present time God designs a new and fresh impetus shall be given to His work. Satan sees this, and he is determined it shall be hindered. He knows that if he can deceive the people who claim to believe present truth, [and make them believe] that the work the Lord designs to do for His people is a removing of the old landmarks, something which they should, with most determined zeal, resist, then he exults over the deception he has led them to believe. The work for this time has certainly been a surprising work of various hindrances, owing to the false setting of matters before the minds of many of our people. That which is food to the churches is regarded as dangerous, and should not be given them. And this slight difference of ideas is allowed to unsettle the faith, to cause apostasy, to break up unity, to sow discord, all because they do not know what they are striving about themselves. Brethren, is it not best to be sensible? Heaven is looking upon us all, and what can they think of recent developments? While in this condition of things, building up barriers, we not only deprive ourselves of great light and precious advantages, but just now, when we so much need it, we place ourselves where light cannot be communicated from heaven that we ought to communicate to others. 1888 518.     

The men in responsible positions have disappointed Jesus. They have refused precious blessings, and refused to be channels of light, as He wanted them to be. The knowledge they should receive of God that they might be a light and blessing to others, they refuse to accept, and thus become channels of darkness. The Spirit of God is grieved. Never can the heart be stirred up with envy, with evil-surmising, with evil reports, but the intellect becomes unbalanced, and cannot decide correctly any controverted point. The attributes of Satan which have found entrance to the soul, cannot harmonize with truth. 1888 519.1
_____________________________________

A Sketch of the Christian Experience and Views of Ellen G. White 1851, page 51

But such subjects as the Sanctuary, in connection with the 2300 days,  the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus, are perfectly calculated to explain the past Advent movement, show what is our present position, and establish the faith of the doubting, and give certainty to the glorious future.

These, I have frequently seen, were the principal subjects on which the messengers should dwell.

Offline

#20 07-10-09 2:09 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

Don, thank you for that post.  It contains some good history that supports what I am saying.   In fact, this document is one of many that show TA to be a fraud.

Of course the historical context is about the law in Galatians debate that has been hidden from the church.  At this point in 1889, the debate was not over and there was more discussion to come, even a final showdown in Battle Creek in the spring of 1890 that the White Estate has been hiding from the church.   

So understand that this is just a small piece of the historical puzzle that needs to be understood by the Adventist Community today.  As you can see, there is no mention of the IJ whatsoever.   

Why?   

Because the IJ was never a doctrinal pillar any more than Smith’s view of the law in Galatians or the Two Covenants was such.  The absence of the IJ being named a pillar speaks volumes, even as it underscores how wrong and confused the modern Adventists have become.   

This document written by Ellen White proves that the Takoma Park leaders were not paying attention to Ellen White, and that they were making things up for their own self-serving agenda.  While they claim she supports the IJ as a Pillar, it is clear that she does not.   

So what is the point of pretending any longer?   What is the point of ignoring Ellen White and repudiating her correct views?

Here is the context of this document:

The Battle Creek SDA’s, led by Uriah Smith, assumed that what they had been teaching for so many years had become sacred and beyond question or criticism.   Thus Smiths legalistic view about the law in Galatians and the Two Covenants had essentially become a doctrinal pillar for all SDA’s, even though this was never true.   

He even assumed that Ellen White fully supported this position that all SDA’s had embraced, and there is even some evidence that she did support this theology during this time period.   

But Ellen White is not one to appeal to tradition, much less to think that she was beyond making an error.  And she also knew that Uriah Smith was not infallible either, so there was really no point for Smith to try and stop the investigation of the issues because of their past positions.  Thus Ellen White would not let the leaders defend any doctrine with the claim that something was an “old landmark.”  She demanded that their be an open and honest investigation to see what the Bible teaches.

In fact, Ellen White refuted Smith’s claim and said it was mythical and wrong.  Which is why she said: “All this cry about changing the old landmarks is all imaginary.”

Ellen White did not embrace what the leaders assumed was correct theology in 1888.  And this is what caused such a huge fight in 1888, which she never backed down from in the slightest.   

Just because the leaders assumed something was a “pillar” did make it so.  Just because they had been promoting a specific position for many years did not make it true.  And this is the great lesson that SDA’s have yet to learn.

The Assumption of Truth

In fact, this is the same context for Glacier View.  The leaders had assumed what they were teaching about the IJ was a sacred pillar, when it was no such thing.  While it was true that this is what they had been teaching for generations, so what?  The assumption of truth is not the same as truth.   Tradition is not the basis for doctrinal truth for SDA’s or for any Protestant.

If Ellen White were at Glacier View, she would have said the very same things that she said to the 1888 leaders.  Why?  Because the IJ was not a doctrinal pillar, even though the church leaders were insisting otherwise.  Just because everyone taught and thought it was, it would not matter to her.  Tradition is not to be regarded as truth.  Period.

Glacier View was a repeat of the 1888 catastrophe.  What the church had assumed was truth, and what they had been preaching and teaching for so many years as truth,- was NOT.  Even though they thought Ellen White supported this view, she did NOT.   

At Glacier View, Dr. Ford knew better.  He was an honest scholar who operated on facts, not myths and assumptions.  So he was not fooled in the slightest by the fraud and misdirection coming from the White Estate and the Review.  He knew that the IJ was never a pillar, and that Ellen White never said otherwise.  He knew the correct definition of the Gospel, as well as the Judgment, and all the pressure from the leaders to embrace tradition made no difference.

In 1980, Dr. Ford stood almost alone with his correct views, which were demonized and strongly condemned by the leaders.  He was slandered, mocked, and mistreated, just like Waggoner was in 1888.  But he stood firm for the truth and defended the correct version of the Three Angels Messages anyway.  &#40;Even as many had no idea that this is what he was really doing.&#41;

So this great cry from the leaders against Dr. Ford’s position was incorrect and outrageous.  He was correct, while they had embraced myth, error, and an “imaginary” pillar, which had no support from Ellen White as the White Estate claimed.

What a pity that the White Estate was hiding the 1888 debate from the church when they needed it most.  How tragic that the church leaders would rather embrace fraud and spoliation than tell the truth and repent.   

Glacier View could not have taken place if the 1888 record had been honestly disclosed and explained to the church.  Which is why it was hidden.  The leaders hid it for a reason.  It was no accident.  They preferred Uriah Smith’s legalism to the Gospel.   

Thus Glacier View was the crowning act of deception by the White Estate and the Review.  It was Arthur White’s monument to his fraud, even as it has assured him a well-deserved place in hell.

1888 & Glacier View

In fact, this Ellen White document applies very well to Glacier View, because what happened in 1888 over the law in Galatians and the Two Covenants, also took place at Glacier View, except it was about the IJ.

This historic parallel is stunning, and so too was the outcome, which almost destroyed the SDA church after each debate.

All SDA’s need to understand that the IJ is an “imaginary pillar.”  It is not a Landmark doctrine, nor does Ellen White support it as if it were true.  In fact, she is clear about the definition of the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message, and it is not, not, not the IJ!

Ellen White would NEVER approve of this popular position that claims the IJ to be the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message.   She has never, never, never said this, nor would she ever say such a thing.  It is pure myth, brought to us by the incompetent and dishonest White Estate and its evil twin the Review.

Moreover, she would also repudiate the false Gospel of works that accompanies the IJ and is embraced by all those that support TA.   

How do we know this?  Because this is what also happened during the 1888 debates.  Waggoner’s cry to embrace the Righteousness of Christ was a call to repudiate Uriah Smiths character perfection and legalism.  It was a call to embrace the Gospel of Luther, including his correct view of the law in Galatians.

Of course the White Estate had the 1888 record in their vaults the entire time, and they should have known this story.  But they kept it hidden from the church.  Why was it hidden?   

So that the leaders could promote their false Gospel in the name of Ellen White.  Thus they scrambled this debate about the Gospel and the law in Galatians and promoted Smith’s view, as if it were Ellen White’s, when it was not.  She hated Smith’s Traditional view of Adventism and they became enemies for life as a result.  But who knew this stung truth? Not many.

Listen to Ellen White speak about how the SDA’s were under the spell of the devil in 1888, and understand that this is also what took place in 1980:

“I know Satan was just as busy among some of those assembled to make false impressions, and to lead the people to arrive at false conclusions, and to misapply and wrest the Scriptures from their true meaning, as he was in the days when the Saviour was upon the earth.”

What happened in 1888 also took place in 1980 at Glacier View.  The spirit of the Papacy controlled the church leaders, and thus there was nothing fair about the investigation of the issues.  Listen to Ellen White describe the farce of 1888:

“Now at that meeting were many different characters and as many different temperaments. There was a striving about words to no profit, and the spirit manifested was uncourteous, ungentlemanly, and not Christlike.”

“I know that hearts were spotted and stained with sin, yet they were the most zealous and vehement in spirit in that meeting.”

“Then how could there have been any fairness in decisions made at that meeting?” 

“I have been shown that it was the same ruling spirit that was revealed in the condemnation of Christ. When the Papists were in controversy with men who took their stand on the Bible for proof of doctrines they considered it a matter that only death could settle.” 

“I could see a similar spirit cherished in the hearts of our brethren and I would not give room to it for an hour.”

Read the rest of her description of 1888 and understand that it also applies to Glacier View and also to this present discussion.   

Just as the leaders failed in 1888 and 1980, so too today.  I agree with Ellen White when she says:

“The men in responsible positions have disappointed Jesus.”

Today, the SDA leaders are so wrong and dishonest that no one should believe a word that they say about church history or doctrine, especially when it comes to the Gospel, Ellen White, or eschatology.  The SDA church could not be more corrupt if it tried.  They are openly at war against the Gospel and Ellen White as well as the historic pillars that define SDA theology, --even though they claim the opposite.  But they are great and confused liars, just like the Jewish leaders that killed Christ in the name of God. 

Dr. Ford has played the reforming role of Dr. Waggoner, with the same sad result.  He presented the truth about the Gospel and the correct doctrinal pillars that had the full support of Ellen White.  But the truth did not matter to the leaders, who rejected it and still refuse to repent. 

“This light from heaven by some was rejected with all the stubbornness the Jews manifested in rejecting Christ, and there was much talk about standing by the old landmarks. But there was evidence they knew not what the old landmarks were.”

Dr. Ford was correct about the Gospel and the Landmarks.  He was correct to state that the IJ is not the Judgment Pillar in Rev 14.  But the leaders had made up their minds and could not understand reason or the facts.  And look at the result?  The SDA’s are self-destructing for all to see.  Just like the Jews and their Battle Creek forefathers.

Today, the SDA’s are being offered another chance to confess the truth and admit they were wrong about both 1888 and Glacier View.  The evidence, which is overwhelming, proves the IJ to be a fraudulent pillar.   

But which leader has come forward to acknowledge the truth?  Not Clifford Goldstein or Pastor Don.  No church worker has made any such confession.  Why not?

Many will lose Eternal Life because their minds refused to admit the facts.  Many have “sealed” and conditioned their minds to think only one way, and thus anything different is rejected.  Thus, the SDA’s today are self-destructing because they have “perverted” views about church history and doctrine, as well as about Ellen White and many other things.   

Listen to Ellen White and understand how confused the leaders were about truth:

“There was evidence they knew not what the old landmarks were. There was evidence and there was reasoning from the Word that commended itself to the conscience; but the minds of men were fixed, sealed against the entrance of light, because they had decided it was a dangerous error removing the &#34;old landmarks&#34; when it was not moving a peg of the old landmarks, but they had perverted ideas of what constituted the old landmarks.”

This statement also applies to every SDA today.  Why?   Because all SDA’s have a PERVERTED and very wrong view of the Three Angels Messages, church history, and Ellen White.   

All SDA’s have been deceived and misled by their incompetent and wicked leaders who must repent and correct the record.

Enough is enough.  It is time for SDA leaders to tell the truth to the Adventist Community and confess what they have done.  THIS is what the LM is demanding of SDA’s.  Thus zealous double-talk, denial, and diversion are not what is needed.  Rather, it is confession and zealous repentance that heaven wants.   

Don, are you ready to admit that TA is built on fraud and perversion?  Are you ready to confess that Glacier View was a farce and TA very wrong?  Are you going to be a repentant and forgiven Laodicean or an unrepentant one that has forfeited Eternal Life?

The Necessity of Repentance

The prerequisite for SDA’s to move foreyard within the Adventist Apocalyptic is repentance and the repudiation of TA.  This is the only way for them to move forward and develop the 4th Angels Message, which is the point of the Advent Movement and the natural eschatological progression of the Adventist Apocalyptic.

Those that cling to the false doctrines of TA cannot comprehend the Gospel, much less the final Advent Message of Rev 18.   They are neither SDA’s nor Christians, much less Protestant.

Listen to Ellen White speak about how deceived the SDA’s have become:

“Now at the present time God designs a new and fresh impetus shall be given to His work. Satan sees this, and he is determined it shall be hindered.” 

“He knows that if he can deceive the people who claim to believe present truth, [and make them believe] that the work the Lord designs to do for His people is a removing of the old landmarks, something which they should, with most determined zeal, resist, then he exults over the deception he has led them to believe.”

“The work for this time has certainly been a surprising work of various hindrances, owing to the false setting of matters before the minds of many of our people.” 

These words of Ellen White should shock all SDA’s.  In the context of our discussion, she is really saying that TA is the work of the Devil.  She is saying that Satan has tricked SDA’s into believing an incorrect view of the Three Angels Messages, which they think is true.   

The result has been catastrophic because it has turned the Adventists into a cultic, corrupt, and “unbalanced” denomination that has misunderstood the Gospel as well as their great eschatological mission. They have embraced “darkness” and called it light, even as they “refuse” to embrace the truth.   

Heaven is disgusted with them, and so too the many millions of SDA’s that have turned away in disgust. 

Let all understand Ellen White:

She says that the SDA’s “have refused precious blessings, and refused to be channels of light, as He wanted them to be.” 

“The knowledge they should receive of God that they might be a light and blessing to others, they refuse to accept, and thus become channels of darkness.”

“The Spirit of God is grieved” with SDA’s.

“Never can the heart be stirred up with envy, with evil-surmising, with evil reports, but the intellect becomes unbalanced, and cannot decide correctly any controverted point.”

“The attributes of Satan which have found entrance to the soul, cannot harmonize with truth.” &#40;1888 519.1&#41;

Today, the Adventists do not have truth.  And unless they acknowledge their many errors and repent; repudiating Traditional Adventism and condemning the White Estate and the Review, they are doomed.

The SDA’s will never go forward to the next Message, the 4th, unless they repent and correct the record.  They will be stuck in a confused and cultic situation that will end in disaster.

I suggest that they listen to Ellen White and do the right thing.  I suggest that they also pay attention to Christ, who is demanding that they zealously repent.

Rev. 3:3 ‘So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.

Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

Matt. 11:15 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Offline

#21 07-10-09 3:03 pm

don
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,121

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

Ellen White Identified the Cleansing of the Sanctuary in Heaven as a message and an SDA Pillar.

From my post:   http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus … 911;...the cleansing of the sanctuary transpiring in heaven, and having decided relation to God's people upon the earth...

...One of the landmarks under this message was the temple of God, seen by His truth-loving people in heaven, and the ark containing the law of God... But such subjects as the Sanctuary, in connection with the 2300 days...

Some Questions;  What is this landmark message of the cleansing of the sanctuary in heaven?

How is it different from the IJ?

When did the landmark, or pillar, message of the cleansing of the sanctuary transform into the IJ?

http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus … 1#POST5901

You have said the late 1850's. ... the IJ was not invented until 1857... It never existed as a concept or a doctrine until the late 1850’s.

Does this mean that pioneer teaching in the early 1850's is different than what we read in the late 1850's? How so? 

Can you point to documents representing the correct view of the landmark teaching of the cleansing of the sanctuary in heaven and other documents representing the incorrect view?

I agree with you about the First Angel's message.  You have taught me this. The Adventist pioneers identified the First Angel's message with Miller's proclaiming of the Second Coming of Jesus. However, the Cleansing of the Sanctuary in Heaven is identified as an Adventist landmark, or pillar.

Message edited by Don on July 10, 2009

Offline

#22 07-10-09 5:18 pm

don
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,121

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

James White considered the Sanctuary Message to be part of the message of the Third Angel not that of the First. Tom, I agree with you on this. Notice how central he viewed the Sanctuary message to Adventism  see the highlights in red. 

Life incidents,: in connection with the great Advent movement, as illustrated by the three angels of Revelation XIV.

By Elder James White. GLANCE AT THE PAST, pages 302-309    

As we look back upon the great Advent movement, with its joyful expectations and bitter disappointments, its prosperity and adversity, its triumphant victories and its trials, it appears just like the work of God in separating a people from the world, to purify, make white, and try, and thus make them ready for the coming of their Lord. Have Adventists been disappointed? So were the Israelites, in not immediately entering Canaan, and the disciples, as Jesus died upon the cross. Have the faith and patience of Adventists been tried? So were the faith and patience of the Israelites tried in their term of forty years wandering in the wilderness. And that of the disciples was severely tested in the unexpected death of their beloved Teacher. Have but comparatively few of the once happy expectants of the King of glory held fast their faith and hope? And have many cast away their confidence in this work and drawn back to perdition? Caleb and Joshua alone, of the six hundred thousand male adults that left Egypt, entered the goodly land. And what of the chosen twelve in the hour of our Lord's apprehension?  Then all the disciples forsook him and fled. Matt. xxvi, 56.     

God has never been able to make anything very great or very good of man. It has been his plan to prove his people in every age, to test their faith and patience. This has been for the good of man and the glory of his  name. It was necessary that such noble characters as Noah, Abraham, Job, and Daniel, should suffer the severest tests. And how unlike the work of God in all past time, had the many thousands of Adventists triumphantly entered the kingdom at the point of expectation, with hardly a single trial.  Blessed is the man that endureth temptation; for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life. James i, 12. This is God's plan. First the cross and the trial, then the crown of unfading glory. As I call to remembrance the former days, touching the Advent movement, and see its adaptation to the wants of the people, and God's great plan of saving men, my soul says,  He hath done all things well.     

It was necessary, in order that the first message should arouse the people and separate those who should receive it from the spirit of the world, that it should not only relate to the fearful realities of the Judgment, but also to the period when it might be expected.  Fear God, and give glory to him, for the hour of his Judgment is come. The proclamation of the time was a part of God's plan. This brought the coming of the Lord very near. This was right. This was necessary to move the people. And when the time passed, instead of calling the attention of believers to some period in the future to which they might look for the coming of the Lord, the Spirit of God sweetly and powerfully applied to their consecrated minds and hearts, such passages as, &#34; Cast not away, therefore, your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 303 

How long this little while would be, no one knew. It was not best that any one should know when it would terminate. And more, it was God's plan that this should not be known; but that they should move along through the period of the patience of the saints, Rev. xiv, 12, up to the coming of the Lord, ever keeping that event just before them. Those who have taught the three messages the past twenty years, have all the way presented the coming of Christ at hand. This has been as God designed. And those who would murmur at God's ministers for this, murmur against the providence of God. 

It is painful to hear those who have their faces set toward Egypt, complain that the message was not properly preached to them. The coming of the Lord was presented too near. And that if they had understood the matter, they should have laid their plans for the future differently, and now their property might be double its present value. These murmur against the direct providence of God. The coming of the Lord was brought very near in 1844, to rid men of the love of this world, that they might share the love of the Father, and seek a preparation for the coming of his Son. They cannot have both. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1 John ii, 15. And it was designed that the coming of Christ should be viewed near by believers, every step of the way from the disappointment in 1844 to the gates of the golden city, to keep them free from the love of this world.     

An energetic Advent minister, on visiting the believers at Roxbury, Mass., being asked,  What is your message now, Bro. B. answered, Come out of her my people. Soon after the passing of the time he visited that people again, and in reply to the inquiry, What is your message now, Bro. B. made the apt and appropriate reply.  Stay out of her my people. So Heaven designed that the coming of Christ should be brought very near to tear from men the love of this world, and that in their faith they should ever hold his coming just before them all the way till faith should be lost in the blazing glories of the coming of the Son of man.

If we keep the coming of Jesus ever near, and live consistently with such a faith, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, we may be saved. But remove the coming of the Lord to the distant future, become imbued with the love and spirit of this world, and remain in such a state, and perdition is certain.

Let the painful history of the past relative to those who have said in their hearts, My Lord delayeth his coming, have apostatized and have been scattered to the world and to Satan, be a warning to all to be ever  looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God.   

When the warning voice of the first angel was first heard, it found the nominal churches asleep upon the subject of the second advent, dreaming of the world's conversion. But the truth was clear, and in the hands of devoted men, was powerful. Every where the message was proclaimed it produced general conviction. The Scriptures were searched as never before; a great revolution in religious belief took place in a few short years; and at least fifty thousand in America alone, became decided believers. The prophetic times in connection with that message served their purpose, and terminated with that message.

The first angel's message was a time message. The second and third are not time messages.  That aroused men in view of the fast approaching Judgment. These tell them what they must do to be saved. And it has been Satan's grand object to institute numerous time movements among certain Adventists since 1844, to contravene this work of preparation. The passing of each time has weakened the faith of believers, and has caused unbelievers to look upon Adventists with increasing disgust. And confusion and irreligion have resulted from these spurious time movements everywhere they have reached. 

The title page of this work calls attention to the great Advent movement as illustrated by the three angels of Rev. xiv.

The truth and work of God in this movement commencing with the labors of William Miller, and reaching to the close of probation, is illustrated by these three angels. The first was a time message, and related to the Judgment. The second described the condition of corrupted Christianity. The third is a solemn warning relative to what men may not do, and what they must do, in order to be saved at the coming of Christ. These angels illustrate the three great divisions of the genuine movement.

They do not illustrate the numerous time movements which have appeared since 1844; therefore, to say the very least, these movements were not from Heaven. 

Seventh-day Adventists hold fast the great Advent movement, hence have use for the messages. They explain them in their sermons, treat upon them in their books, and give them a place with the other prophetic symbols upon their charts. They cannot spare these links in the golden chain of truth, that connect the past with the present and future, and show a beautiful harmony in the great whole.     

Timeists, and in fact all Adventists who do not acknowledge the special providence of God in the work  of William Miller and his associates, in 1843 and 1844, have no use for the three angels messages. They do not introduce them into their sermons and printed expositions of prophecy, unless it be to oppose us. They find no place for them among the other prophetic symbols upon their charts. Indeed, they treat them with all that neglect that would be justifiable, were they a wicked interpolation by men who sought to corrupt the sacred Scriptures. And no reason can be given why these men should pursue their fanatical course in relation to definite time, and other fancies not symbolized by the three angels, and therefore no part of the great movement, and resist the truth of God for this time, unless it be that in consequence of not receiving and retaining the love of the truth of the fulfillment of prophecy in the Advent movement, God has given them over to strong delusions. I repeat it.

The three messages symbolize the three parts of the genuine movement. That which has appeared not symbolized by the three angels, though it be branded Adventism, is spurious.   

Again, the sanctuary was the heart of the typical system. It was the repository of the ark of God, in which ark his law was deposited. By this law the people had the knowledge of sin. It was also the place where they, in figure, found pardon for their sins through the offerings there made. This entire system, with its great center, the sanctuary, was but the shadow of the realities of the present system of salvation. The shadow was on earth; the reality is in Heaven. The facts are stated by the apostle in few words: &#34; We have such an High Priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.&#34; Heb. viii, 1, 2. The sanctuary of the new  covenant, which is in Heaven, is the great heart of the plan of redemption. There Christ offers his blood for the sins of men.

In the real tabernacle there are two holies, if there were two in the shadow. In the holiest is the ark of God, containing the ten precepts of his law, if they were in the holiest of the shadow. Here is a theme worthy the attention of all Christians. And it is one in which they should feel the deepest interest, as each has a case of eternal consequence pending there.    

The work of cleansing this sanctuary, at the close of the 2300 days, is a subject which should materially interest all Adventists. It pertains to the confession, pardon, and blotting out of sins. A correct and intelligent faith sees the adorable Redeemer in the most holy of the true tabernacle, offering his blood before the mercy seat for the sins of those who have broken the law of God beneath it in the ark. True faith reaches within the second vail, where Jesus and the ark of God are seen. There, by the law we have the knowledge of sin, and through the blood of Jesus we may find pardon, and share eternal redemption.

The subject of the cleansing of this sanctuary, then, is one of most thrilling interest, especially to all Adventists. It is the key to the great Advent movement, making all plain. Without it the movement is inexplicable.    

Seventh-day Adventists dwell upon this subject with great delight. It opens to them the ark of God, in which is seen the ten precepts of his law. They keep them. It presents Jesus before the mercy-seat, ready to plead the cause of sinners, who in the spirit of penitence and confession, go to him for help. They love and seek to obey him, so that it is said of them,Here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. They treat upon the subject of the sanctuary in their sermons and books, and find a place for it among the symbols of prophecy upon their charts.

Seventh-day Adventists cannot spare the subject of the sanctuary, as it is the great center around which all revealed truth relative to salvation clusters, and contributes more toward defining their present position, than any other.   

But nominal Adventists treat the subject as one of no interest or importance to them. Having in their own hearts abolished the ten commandments, they have no use for the ark of God, and cast it aside as an antiquated and unfashionable piece of furniture. Their sermons, and their printed essays and expositions, do not refer to the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary, unless it be to oppose the views of Seventh-day Adventists, and ridicule them, and ignorantly and contemptuously talk of Heaven being dirty, and needing cleansing. And as in the case of the three angels, you do not find the sanctuary represented upon their prophetic charts. 

But these we value above all earthly good, and make them prominent in all our religious teachings, because the truth of God for this time, or present truth, is in them. And for this reason those who call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweets for bitter,&#34; cast this subject from them, as unworthy of their notice, unless it be to oppose, denounce and ridicule.

Title: Life incidents,: in connection with the great Advent movement, as illustrated by the three angels of Revelation XIV./ By Elder James White, Pages 302-309

Offline

#23 07-11-09 2:10 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

Pastor Don asked:  What is this "landmark" message of the "cleansing of the sanctuary in heaven"?

This SDA Pillar is a correction to Miller’s Sanctuary doctrine of Dan 8:14.  It is the 5th Pillar within the Adventist Apocalyptic, which means 4 other Pillars precede it, and two more will follow.

Thanks to Hiram Edson, this “doctrinal pillar” was discovered immediately after the Great disappointment, Oct 23, 1844 to be exact.

Listen to Hiram Edson explain why Christ did not come on Oct 22, 1844.  His discovery about the Heavenly Sanctuary became an important and timely correction for the self- destructing Advent Movement: 

"He for the first time entered on that day the second apartment of that sanctuary; and that he had a work to perform in the most holy place before coming to this earth. That he came to the marriage at that time, in other words, to the Ancient of days to receive a kingdom, dominion, and glory; and we must wait for his return from the wedding."  Edson MS. p.9, quoted in Foundations of the SDA Message and Mission, by Damsteegt, 1977, p117. 

So instead of Christ coming back to earth on Oct 22, Edson said that Christ entered the most holy place to perform a special work, which was the reception of the kingdom, dominion, and glory. Ibid. p 122. 

This correction explained Miller’s error about Dan 8: 14 while at the same time allowing the 2300 days to stand.  It explained the Great Disappointment to the minds of some Millerites, even as this pillar allowed the past two messages to be viewed as fulfilled prophecy.  It also acted as a bridge that allowed for the further development of the paradigm and the discovery of the 3rd Angels Message.

This new sanctuary doctrine was based upon the theory that the wedding parable of Matt 25 had started on October 22, 1844- in heaven.

Matt. 25:10 And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. 

The return from this MARRIAGE in heaven would be the Second Coming, which they thought would still take place very shortly. 

Luke 12:35 Be dressed in readiness, and keep your lamps lit.

Luke 12:36 Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks. 

So this pillar of correction was a dramatically different interpretation from Millers view of Dan 8: 14, and it became the key for this little Millerite group to discover the 3rd Angels Message.  It was a very critical revision that allowed the SDA’s to come into existence.

Don asked:  How is the CHS different from the IJ?

The CHS, which is the 5th pillar in the Adventist Apocalyptic, was viewed as an undefined administrative act in the heavenly sanctuary that preceded the Second Coming.   The terms “blotting out of sin” and “receiving a kingdom” were vague and obscure.

The IJ by contrast is very different because it features a judgment of each professed believer in the heavenly sanctuary.  It was focused on character perfection and sanctification, whereas the original sanctuary pillar was not.

In addition, while the Battle Creek SDA’s always understood that the IJ was part of the 3rd Angels Message, this has since changed.  The Takoma Park apologist alleged the IJ be the # 2 pillar in Rev 14: 7 and this great error is what every modem SDA has been indoctrinated to believe.  But it was never true.   

The Battle Creek SDA’s always viewed the IJ is an addition to, and a further understanding of, the # 5 pillar called the Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary.   

Unless this history is properly understood, great harm will result, and this is exactly what has taken place.  The modern SDA’s have misunderstood the historical development and definition of the Adventist Apocalyptic, and disaster has resulted.

So Edson's corrective “pillar” was not about any Judgment in heaven.  Nor was the CHS an examination of our Sanctification by a court in heaven.  But thanks to Uriah Smith, and others, the CHS soon morphed into a very legalistic doctrine that was never part of its original articulation.

Today, we must separate the correct pillar from the incorrect addition.  Even as we admit that Jesus had been in the Heavenly Sanctuary since the 1st century.

The simple correction about the earth not being the Temple to be cleansed, and the discovery of a heavenly sanctuary is a true and necessary pillar, # 5 to be exact.  But the IJ, which came afterwards, is a great error and a false pillar.  One that should never be confused with the great Judgment Pillar of the Second Coming which alone stands as the #2 pillar in the 1st Angels Message.

Don asked: When did the landmark, or pillar, message of the cleansing of the sanctuary transform into the IJ?   You have said the late 1850's. ... the IJ was not invented until 1857... It never existed as a concept or a doctrine until the late 1850’.

The morphing of the CHS started in the mid 1850’s.  As one by one the early SDA’s felt the need to further explain and expand their vague sanctuary doctrine. 

In fact, in 1853 Andrews could only describe the SDA sanctuary doctrine by saying it referred to the “blotting out of sin and the transfer of sins to the scapegoat.”  But this was so general that many, including Loughborough and especially Uriah Smith felt the need to further articulate and flesh out this doctrine.   

In fact, by the fall of 1855, Smith had concluded that there was a work of judgment taking place in heaven and that our characters were being examined, starting with all those that had died.  Which means that young Uriah Smith was the first to articulate the IJ, even though it would not called such a thing for another 2 years.

By 1857, James White had joined the growing call to further expand the 5th pillar, and this is when he invented the term “Investigative Judgment.”  It would take another 20 years before Uriah Smith would write out the details of this doctrine in the world’s largest book about the IJ.  This is the legalistic doctrine that was handed down to the modern SDA’s.  The IJ swallowed up the original CHS pillar and replaced it with a far more detailed, but very incorrect view of eschatology.

Don asked:  Does this mean that the pioneer teaching in the early 1850's is different than what we read in the late 1850's? How so?

When it came to the Sanctuary and Dan 8:14, the early SDA’s had no concept of a Judgment in heaven, much less one that involved investigating ones character to see if they were safe to save.  But this all changed after 1857, as a new doctrine was invented, on top of the simple one that Edson discovered.   

Thus a new doctrine emerged that would, in association with their emphasis on the law and the Sabbath, lead the SDA’s into gross legalism and then disaster.

The combination of the Sabbath and the IJ, as well as Smiths new spin on the Two Covenants and the Law in Galatians all worked to turn the SDA’s into hardcore legalists.  Which of course led to 1888 and the great debate which destroyed their Battle Creek Empire.   

What a pity that the Takoma Park leaders decided to hide and suppress the history of Battle Creek and keep the modern church in the dark about what took place in 1888.  This massive deception has so confused and misled the SDA’s that they went on to repeat the very same mistakes of their forefathers. 

It could have been avoided had the leaders just told the truth.   

In hindsight, it is clear that the SDA’s are great deceivers and propagandists.  They have lied so much and for so long that few have any idea what is truth and what is myth.  The White Estate has never told the truth about SDA history or Ellen White and now they have been caught in a massive publishing fraud that is so systemic and CRIMINAL that there is no way out for them but to confess and correct the record.

What a pity that when confronted with their fraud in the 1980’s, the leaders opted for pluralism rather then tell the truth and confess that TA was not supported by Ellen White.  Pluralism was invented by the NAD as a policy to stop the debates and heal the division caused by Glacier View.  It was also meant to cover-up the fraud of the White Estate and prevent the Adventist Community from understanding what was really going on.

The SDA leaders seem incapable of telling the truth.  They have repeatedly refused when given the opportunity. They are the world’s greatest liars and con men and now the world is going to find all this out.  But even so, the Advent Movement must go forward, regardless of the many errors that have almost ruined it.

Don asked:  Can you point to documents representing the correct view of the landmark teaching of the cleansing of the sanctuary in heaven and other documents representing the incorrect view?

Anything that talks about a judgment in heaven belongs to the error of the IJ.  Which is a lot of material because the IJ came into existence just before the Civil War and was further articulated by Uriah Smith in the 1870’s.

The 1889 document you posted where Ellen White describes all the pillars clearly shows that the IJ did not make the list, but Edson's CHS did.  What more do you need to see?  There was never a time when Ellen White calls the IJ a pillar.  I have never seen such a statement from her, and neither has anyone else.

Don said:  I agree with you about the First Angel's message. You have taught me this.

I was beginning to think that the TSDA’s were un-teachable.  But you might prove me wrong.  I hope so.

However, if you agree with the facts, then you must also repudiate Glacier View and TA!   

This is also part of what I am trying to teach you.   Every TSDA teaches that the IJ is the #2 pillar in the 1st Angels Message.  So too does the White Estate, the Review, and all the talking heads, like Clifford Goldstein and Doug Bachelor.  But this was never true at any time.  Which means that TA is built on major error and fraud, and a great misunderstanding of Adventist history and theology.

TA is a total and complete fraud.  It has the wrong Gospel and the wrong Judgment.  It has no support from Ellen White or any of the Pioneers, much less the Bible.  Dr. Ford was correct all along, while his accusers have turned out to be fools, liars, and con men.

TA must be strongly repudiated and CONDEMNED.  Along with all those that continue to support this legalistic myth that has confused, divided, and almost destroyed the great Advent Movement.

Don confessed:  The Adventist pioneers identified the First Angel's message with Miller's proclaiming of the Second Coming of Jesus. 

Correct.  Good for you!  Why has this acknowledgment taken you so long?

The Pioneers never, never, never said that the IJ was located in the 1st Angels Message.  Thus the # 2 Judgment pillar is only and always the Second Coming.  This fact will stand until the end of time. Forever.

Yet all TSDA’s teach that the IJ is the # 2 pillar.  And to make matters worse, they all claim that this is what Ellen White teaches and that this is what makes SDA’s unique and special.   

But they are totally, completely, and forever wrong.  There is no truth to this delusional and dangerous mantra from the TSDA’s.  Which is why they must confess and repent.

Do you now understand how fundamentally wrong TA is?  Do you now understand that it is built on myth, fraud, and legalism, plus lots of propaganda?   

Do you also understand why Clifford Goldstein ran away from this discussion?  And why neither the White Estate nor any scholar or apologist will dare come online to challenge what Dr. Ford and now Tom Norris are saying?   

But silence and stonewalling will not change the facts.  The SDA’s must admit what they have done and repent.  There is no other option.  The record must be corrected so that the Advent Movement can go forward.

Don said:  However, the Cleansing of the Sanctuary in Heaven is identified as an Adventist landmark, or pillar.

Correct.  The #5 pillar corrected Miller’s sanctuary error in Dan 8:14 and allowed for the discovery of the 3rd Angels Message.  It also locked in place the previous two Messages as fulfilled prophecy.  So this was a much needed and welcome correction that explained the great disappointment and allowed the Advent Movement to go forward.

Without this correction, there would have been no 3rd Angels Message, or the paradigm of the Three Angels Messages.  The Adventist Apocalyptic would have evaporated into history and the SDA church would have no reason to exist. 

Don said:  James White considered the Sanctuary Message to be part of the message of the Third Angel not that of the First. Tom, I agree with you on this. 

So too did Uriah Smith and all of them.  Why?  Because this pillar was discovered after the 1st and 2nd Messages had terminated, so how could it become part of a Message that was over?  It would be impossible.  Thus they associated it with the discovery of the next active message, which was the 3rd Angels Message.   

Thus the Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary was an EXPLANATION for the great disappointment, even as this pillar allowed for the entire paradigm of the Three Angels Messages to come together as a holistic paradigm.   

This is why it was a pillar and why they spoke so favorably about the importance of this doctrine.  Without the 5th pillar, which was discovered on Oct 23, 1844, there would be no SDA denomination.  The Advent Movement would have not have a prophetic basis or reason to exist.

Don said:  Notice how central James White viewed the Sanctuary message to Adventism see the highlights in red.  See explanation above.   

Also note that SDA eschatology cannot exist without the correction to Millers error in Dan 8:14.  It was this critical revision of Dan 8:14 that allowed for the discovery of the 3rd Angels Message.  James White understood this and thus he was always protective of this special, corrective pillar, even after it was remodeled into the IJ.   

So too was Ellen White.  And when Kellogg and others were trying to minimize and remove this pillar, Ellen White reacted very strongly.  Why?  Because the Three Angels Messages, and the 7 pillars that they contain is what defines and empowers the Advent Movement.  Should these Messages, and their various pillars become changed or removed, the entire structure comes crashing down.   

The Advent Movement cannot function without the genuine and original version of the Three Angels Messages.  Without the 7 pillars contained within the AA, the mission and message of the SDA church is a worthless fraud and a waste of time. 

There is only one Gospel and one Judgment, and one version of the Three Angels Message.  This is the foundation of the Advent Movement and the SDA church.  Accept no substitutes.  Not even from the White Estate.

Historical Review of the IJ From Glacier View:

THE HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE DOCTRINE OF THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT; by Dr. Desmond Ford. 

How Adventists adopted the sanctuary doctrine -   

The Investigative judgment – 

In our last editorial Feb. 7, we investigated early documents dealing with the subject of the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary and discovered that, except for a few vague references to a breastplate of judgment that the High Priest wore, as late as 1850 writers we consulted on the sanctuary and the 2300 days say nothing about an investigative judgment. 

However, in one of her early statements Ellen White gives a hint of a judgment. She says, I saw that Jesus would not leave the Most Holy Place, until every case was decided either for salvation or destruction. 

The present Truth, vol. 1, no. 3 August, 1849. 

This hint was not immediately picked up by other writers. As late as 1853, in a series of articles J. N. Andrews wrote in the Review and Herald, he explained the cleansing of the sanctuary only as the blotting out of sin and the transfer of sins to the scapegoat. - Feb. 3, 1853. 

However, the next year J. N. Loughborough connected the cleansing of the sanctuary with the declaration, in the first angel's message, The hour of his judgment is come; Rev. 14:7 

What was that work of cleansing? Is the work of cleansing the Sanctuary fitly heralded by the first angel's message? In other words, is it a work of judgment? For light on this subject, we shall be obliged to go to the type. Let us look at the type. See the high priest preparing himself to cleanse the Sanctuary; almost the first thing he did was to gird upon him the breast plate of judgment. For what does he put that on? It certainly looks as though he was going to do a judgment work... 

Now I read 1 Pet. iv. Verse 5 declares that Christ is ready to judge the quick and the dead. Verse 7. But the end of all things is at hand. Verse 11. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God. Oracles -ten commandments. See Acts vii, 38

Why speak as the oracles of God? Because the oracles are the duty brought out by the third angel's message. Verse 17. The time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? Verse 19. 

Commit the keeping of your souls to God. 1 Tim. v. 24. Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment. We see by this what the judgment is that the first angel of Rev. xiv, refers to. - Ibid., Feb. 14, 1854.

The next year, Uriah Smith enlarged on the idea of judgment. He stated plainly, The work of cleansing the earthly sanctuary was a work of judgment.- Ibid., Oct. 2, 1855. 

Citing Daniel 7:10 and Revelation 20:12, he called attention to the books that would be used in the judgment. Then mentioning 1 Peter 4:17 and 1 Timothy 5:24, he observed: 

This must be a Judgment of the same nature and can refer to no other work than the closing up of the ministration of the heavenly Sanctuary, hence that work must embrace the examination of individual character, and we conclude that the lives of the children of God, not only those who are living, but all who have ever lived, whose names are written In the Lamb's book of life, will during this time pass in final review before that great tribunal.

We see, therefore, how in this respect, the work of the type, Is Infinitely surpassed by that of the antitype  The first angel proclaimed, Fear God and give glory to him; for the hour of his Judgment is come.  At the end of the 2300 days, when that message closed, had that time come? 

If the judgment scene, which takes place in the second apartment of the Sanctuary, to which this proclamation doubtless refers, did not then commence, it had not come; and the first angel with his message, was too fast. 

But we believe that work did there commence; that there was the time when Judgment began at the house of God, and the time came when Daniel, and all the righteous in the person of their Advocate should stand in their lot. -Ibid. 

Finally, in an article entitled, The Judgment, James White introduced the phrase Investigative judgment.

He said, The Investigative Judgment of the house, or church, of God will take place before the first resurrection; so will the judgment of the wicked take place during the 1000 years of Rev. xx, and they will be raised at the close of that period. - Ibid. Jan. 29, 1857. 

The term investigative calls attention to the fact that in the Judgment conducted in the Holy of Holies, the records of the lives of all those who have at one time or another entered the service of Christ will be -investigated. Every name of those who have believed on Jesus is mentioned, every case closely investigated. The Great Controversy, p. 483. 

The scrutiny will be thorough, and sentences will be rendered on the basis of the records. The fully developed doctrine of the investigative judgment has been dealt with in various Seventh-day Adventist publications and will not be discussed in detail here. A readily available source is Ellen White&#39;s The Great Controversy, which devotes a chapter to this topic pp.479-491. 

Thus it required some 13 years after the passing of the time in the autumn of 1844 before the subject of the investigative judgment was fully developed. 

We now come back to the question; How is the investigative judgment related to the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary? 

We have already stated that the two are not identical. The cleansing that began in 1844 was the antitype of the Day of Atonement services described in Leviticus 16. The emphasis in that chapter is on the removal once each year of sins accumulated in the sanctuary throughout the year…

Dr. Ford, 1980, Appendix 24: Daniel 8:14 The Day Of Atonement And The Investigative Judgment; pages A-134-136 

-------------------------------------------------- -------

Understand that the SDA’s were not going around promoting the sanctuary doctrine.  Rather, their great obsession was the SABBATH.  This was the greatest of all the pillars to their minds and this is the primary doctrine that drove the denomination’s proselytizing efforts.  The SDA’s, which represented the 3rd Angels Message, were all about the Sabbath.

So don’t get the idea that the changing Sanctuary doctrine, now called the IJ after 1857 was somehow in competition with the Sabbath. Hardly.  The IJ was used to support the Sabbath and the fact that one had to obey the law in order to be saved fit very well with a judgment in heaven to make sure all were fit for heaven.   

The bottom line is this:  The SDA church must confess the great error of promoting TA.  They must officially confess to all for what they did to Dr. Ford at Glacier View, even as they condemn the White Estate and the Review for promoting a massive fraud about Ellen White and church history.

Traditional Adventism is a complete and total fraud.  Ellen White does not support it, nor does any Pioneer.  Arthur White is the new Canright.  He must be publicly condemned and the White Estate turned into a source of truth, instead of a propaganda machine.

So Don, are you ready to repent of TA and apologize to Dr. Ford?  Perhaps you can contact Goldstein and some others and repent as a group?  Maybe it won’t be such a fearful ordeal this way?  But one-way or another, this is what every SDA must do.  There is no way out of this mess except by true confession, repentance, and reform.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Offline

#24 07-11-09 3:19 pm

don
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 1,121

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

Thus it required some 13 years after the passing of the time in the autumn of 1844 before the subject of the investigative judgment was fully developed.

Tom, you speak favorably of the Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary doctrine which began with Hiram Edson. I understand this doctrine to include:

The date of 457 and 1844 as starting and ending dates for the 2300 day prophecy.

A valid application of the year-day principle.

The recognition of a two apartment ministry in the heavenly sanctuary with the second apartment ministry beginning in 1844.

Sins pardoned by the blood of Jesus were transferred to the heavenly sanctuary and needed to be cleansed from it.

It seems that you present your stand as in harmony with Desmond Ford, does Dr. Ford acknowledge the Cleansing of the Sanctuary doctrine of the 1840 & 39's and early 1850's as compatible with the Reformation Gospel?

Offline

#25 07-16-09 10:24 am

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

Don said:  Tom, you speak favorably of the Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary doctrine, which began with Hiram Edson. 

Answer: Without this correction to Miller’s error in Dan 8:14 about the EARTH being the sanctuary to be cleansed, this would have been the end of the Advent Movement. The Three Angels Messages would not have been developed as an eschatological paradigm and there would be no SDA church.

This is why the discovery of the CHS is so eschatologically important for SDA theology and why I speak so favorably of it as compared to its evil twin, the IJ.  Not because it was perfect, which it was not, but because it saved the Advent Movement. 

The CHS saved the previous 2 Messages with their doctrinal Pillars, while the IJ would go on to destroy them both, even turning the Gospel and the Judgment pillars into false doctrines and false pillars.

Don said:  I understand this doctrine to include:   

1. The date of 457 and 1844 as starting and ending dates for the 2300 day prophecy.
   
2, A valid application of the year-day principle.
   
3. The recognition of a two apartment ministry in the heavenly sanctuary with the second apartment ministry beginning in 1844.
   
4. Sins pardoned by the blood of Jesus were transferred to the heavenly sanctuary and needed to be cleansed from it.

Answer:  WRONG!   

Do not confuse the background of the Advent Movement with any specific doctrinal pillar.  Do not confuse the historical context with the actual doctrines that are being marked by providence as sacred and special.

While the 2300 days was an important part of Adventist history and eschatology, it is NOT a pillar.  The Second Coming is a pillar, which was supposed to take place at the end of the 2,300 days, but there is a great distinction here that must be understood by all.

Neither the 2300 days, nor any of the calculations about when the Second Coming would take place are scared doctrines.  Most all of that was immature and obviously wrong.  But the pre-millennial doctrine of the Second Coming was NOT WRONG.  It was, and still is, very correct.  It will stand forever, regardless of the errors that were associated with it.

While the date of 457, and the 2300-day calculation is part of Adventist history; that does not make it a pillar, much less correct.  Nor is the YD principle a pillar, or the definition of the Little Horn, etc.  While these details and interpretations made sense at the time, and helped them erect a series of pillars that are to guide the Laodicean Church until the end of time, that does not make such details correct, much less pillars.

The date of 1844 is not a pillar, and neither is some undefined event that was supposed to take place in heaven at that time. 

Many SDA’s also think that the IJ was a great and special pillar in the 1st Angels Message, but they are also very wrong, as we have proven over and over.   

Very few things can become doctrinal pillars within the Adventist Apocalyptic, and none of these 4 you mention make the grade.

The Gospel and the Second Coming are the first two pillars, but there is no pillar about the date 1844 or the 2300 days.  While some may argue that Edson’s pillar encompassed the 1844 date, this date has no biblical certainty or proof and thus it is incompatible with the Gospel and Protestant Prophecy.

The CHS is a pillar, because it was a much needed correction to Millers view of Dan 8:14.  So it becomes a pillar simply because it made a major correction to the paradigm, even as it established the truth that Christ is in the Heavenly Sanctuary.  There was no judgment of our characters associated with it.

The CHS changed the expected event of the termination of the 2300 days and locked in place the former Messages and Pillars.  Thus the simple truth that Jesus is in the Heavenly Sanctuary as our mediator is the #5 pillar.  No date is needed, nor was there anything about a pre-advent Judgment developed at this time.  So neither the PAJ nor the IJ was part of this original pillar.

I repeat; there was no IJ attached to this original pillar, and no Judgment, nor can there ever be.  The IJ was added on, and essentially over time, enveloped the CHS, which has turned out to be a major blunder that is destroying the Advent Movement.

Do not confuse Adventist history with doctrinal truth.  There were large amounts of error in every Message.  So don’t be surprised to hear this.  But it is the truth that we want.  Not errors, legends, and myths about the super pioneers.  This is nonsense that has led to the fraud of TA and the present crisis.

There are 7 pillars not 70 or 700 or 144,000.  Thus many, many things that the Millerites and SDA’s have taught, are not going to hold up to our present knowledge of the Word and the world.  No one need cry or think this is sacrilegious.   

It is the pillars that must guide the Advent Movement, starting with the first one—the Gospel.  In fact, anything that opposes the Gospel is excluded from the Adventist Apocalyptic.  And thus there is an automatic check on what doctrines may enter the apocalyptic.

For example, many SDA’s think that Sunday laws must come to pass, if given enough time. Many SDA’s cannot imagine how the world could end unless this takes place.  But Sunday laws are not a pillar.  They don’t have to happen at all.  Nor is this what the Bible teaches on this point.

The Sabbath however, is a great pillar that can never be removed.  So what does this mean?  It means we can’t be dogmatic about things that are not a pillar, even as the pillars need to be better understood and embraced.   

The fact of the matter is that Sunday laws cannot lead to the time of trouble because the Bible does not teach such a thing.  So what?  The Sabbath is still a pillar and the Gospel still controls the entire paradigm.  So what is the harm to being honest and removing outdated errors and false pillars from the past?  This is what must happen.

It just means that the final events will not take place in the 21st century the way we were indoctrinated to believe.  So what?  It is truth we want.  Not myth, legend, or stale tradition from the 19th century. 

This idea that what the Pioneers taught must be completely true is utter nonsense.  Only a portion of what they taught is true, as there was much error all around.

For example, the termination of the 2300 days by Miler was admitted to be wrong by the Millerites, so it was changed, in 1844 to another termination date by Snow, against Miller’s wishes.  This is where the Oct 22 date came from; it was not from Miller.  It was an attempt to correct Miller’s obvious error about the 2300 days.

So there was error all around, even during the most thrilling and successful days of the Advent Movement; and after the disappointment, there was more error to deal with, even as change was everywhere.   

While the Millerites held to many points of Adventist eschatology, including the YDP, this does not substantiate or prove any of it.  Scholarship today is far more sophisticated and advanced than in the 19th century and thus there is no reason to think that the past doctrinal points were without error.  This is absurd.  The real pillars matter, little else does.

The fact that the SDA’s needed to continue to revise Dan 8:14, over and over also shows that even they did not fully agree with what it taught.  And today, they are more confused then ever about all this.  But Dr. Ford was not confused and neither is Tom Norris.  There is no excuse for what has happened to the Advent Movement, nor is there any doubt that they have made many, many mistakes that cry out for correction.

Today, all SDA’s need to be very careful when they study Adventist history, things are not always what they appear, nor is history what the SDA apologists claimed.  Many have taken extreme, dishonest, and unwarranted views, even as the SDA’s have misunderstood many things, including the Gospel and most all the Pillars.  This is why they must repent and return to the real pillars that alone define, guide, and empower the Advent Movement.

Error in the Three Angels Messages

No one should think that just because we speak so highly of the Three Angels Messages and the 7 doctrinal pillars within them, that these doctrines are free from error.  They are not, there is error associated with most all these pillars, and this fact must be taken into consideration.   

Ellen White also takes this position, even though she would never allow any of these basic pillars to be moved.  In fact, the 1888 debate was about the first pillar, the Gospel.  So we know she wanted the church to better understand this most important pillar, because she was fighting against Smith to revise and change some very incorrect views about salvation.

While we make sure to define this first pillar as the “Protestant Gospel,” because this is its’ pedigree and history, it has never been fully correct.  It was in fact a Sunday based Gospel from the start, which all Sabbatarians know is wrong.  Then the SDA’s turned it into a very false version of the Gospel that mimicked RC theology as well as the 1st century Judaizers.  Thus the Gospel pillar became even more misunderstood by Adventists.  It has never been fully correct at any time.  Only in the 4th Angels Message will it be fully correct and true.

Such past and present error does not mean that the Gospel is a wrong pillar; rather, it means that it needs to be polished up and corrected by the church.  The SDA’s have had a very difficult time understanding the 1st pillar and until they get it fully correct, the Adventist Apocalyptic will be worthless.

The same goes for the # 2 pillar about the Judgment.  The SDA’s have also had a very difficult time with this doctrine that almost destroyed them in Takoma Park.  So here is another pillar that must be corrected.  This is what Dr. Ford was trying to do with both the Gospel and the Judgment, but the wicked leaders sent him into exile for alleged heresy.  What a foolish and fatal mistake this has turned out to be! 

The modern SDA’s are not to embrace either the doctrinal mistakes or the incorrect context of any of the Three Angels Messages or their pillars.  What modern SDA’s need is a contemporary, credible, and correct view of each and every one of the pillars.  This is what the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18 is really all about.  It is the final Advent Message that reflects the full truth about each and every pillar, starting with the Gospel that the TSDA’s have so horribly mangled and repudiated.

Take the Sabbath pillar; we agree that the 7th day is the only Sabbath for the church, not Sunday, but it can’t be defined the way the SDA’s have interpreted it.  Why?  Because there cannot be the Old Covenant Sabbath in a Gospel paradigm.  That is a great error that must be corrected.  So even though the Sabbath is a great pillar, it still needs correction and improvement.

So what the SDA’s must do is take all the pillars and make sure they are fully correct and up to date.  They must all pass the Protestant Hermeneutic and mesh with the Gospel as well as with the Reformers and Pioneers.  The end result of this reforming process is the 4th Angels Message. 

Right now the SDA’s have the wrong understanding of the Gospel and the Judgment as well as the law and the Sabbath, and hermeneutics and eschatology and many other things.

Tithe is NOT a pillar and is in fact against the Gospel, and so too Food laws, a hierarchy, and pretending that Ellen White is like a Bible prophet that has doctrinal authority.  Not even abstinence is a pillar, because this was a silly doctrine made up by the Temperance Movement in the 19th century.  It was never a doctrine in either the Old or New Testaments.

None of these errors are compatible with the genuine Three Angels Messages or their 7 Gospel based pillars.

So if the Advent Movement is going to survive and prosper, it will need honest and true scholars, like Dr. Ford, to help sort it all out.   Therefore, he must be brought back into a leadership role, replacing those Pharisees that are being exposed as wolves in sheep’s clothing for all to see.

The only way out of this crisis is for the church to confess this massive fraud about TA that comes from the White Estate and the Review-- and repent.   

Glacier View must be repudiated and the record corrected so that the Adventist Community can understand how to develop the last great Message that will precede the end of the world.  They must transition from Rev 14 to Rev 18.  This is why the SDA’s exist; to move the paradigm forward and complete the Adventist Apocalyptic.   

This is their moment of opportunity to rise, shine, and do their duty.  What could be more important? 

I can assure you that this is what Ellen White and all the Pioneers would want to see happen.  But unless there is repentance for both 1888 and Glacier View, the Loud Cry of Rev 18 and the completion of the Protestant Movement will not take place under their watch.

Denial is Useless

How can there be repentance when the SDA’s pretend they have done nothing wrong?  How can they find favor with God or man when they repudiate the LM and pretend that all their positions are solid and true, better than all others, when this is an absurd and impossible position to defend? Who do they think they are fooling?   

Heaven knows exactly what they have done, and so too many on earth, so what is the point of all this denial from the leaders?   Everyone knows that they are full of error and double-talk, even as they know that they have played games with Ellen White and persecuted Dr. Ford for telling the truth. This is why the world thinks SDA’s are a confused and dishonest cult, when they could, and should, be much better than that.   

The SDA’s were meant to complete the Protestant Reformation and bring the church back to apostolic Gospel of Paul, but they are heading in the opposite direction. They were meant to present the Gospel in a stunning and clear manner that would arrest the attention of the world.  But this is not possible until they repent.

The Adventists need to stop pretending and admit that they have badly misunderstood the Gospel and the Three Angels Messages.  They need to repent for what they done to Ellen White, and make restitution for their great consumer fraud about her life and her beliefs.  They need to repent for 1888 and Glacier View, and for ruining the Health Message.  There is a long list of errors and mistakes that they cannot deny.

The Adventists must come together and embrace the one and only version of the Three Angels Messages, making sure that every pillar is straight and true, without error.  When they do this, the Advent Movement will be resurrected from the dead, - not before.

Don said:  It seems that you present your stand as in harmony with Desmond Ford, does Dr. Ford acknowledge the Cleansing of the Sanctuary doctrine of the 1840's and early 1850's as compatible with the Reformation Gospel? 

Answer:  When I interviewed Dr. Ford, I asked him about the IJ.  Here is what he said:

AToday: QUESTION #3 - Can you give us a simple explanation of the traditional position of the Investigative Judgment versus your updated, controversial view?   Are you saying that there is no pre-advent judgment for any Christian or just that our lives are not going to be investigated to see if we are fit for heaven?  Is there a heavenly sanctuary and does it matter?

How many judgments are there and how do we know if we can ever pass them?

Also where does the Reformers’ third use of the law come in with its rewards-for-works concept? Although I think many Adventists today certainly understand the gospel much better now than they did before Glacier View, many are still very confused about the details of these issues.

Dr. Ford: The Investigative Judgment teaching was the fifth explanation raised to explain the disappointment of October 22, 1844.

The Church did not adopt this teaching until 1857—thirteen years later. The Church taught that Christ, after his ascension, has two phases of ministry in the respective apartments of the heavenly sanctuary—the first phase is one of intercession and the second phase of intercession AND judgment for all who had ever professed loyalty to God. 

This second phase purportedly began on October 22, 1844 as Christ went within the veil. 

Most SDAs listening to expositions of the traditional view of the judgment gained the impression that they must reach a certain standard of holiness in order to pass the test. Thus, Christian assurance was vitiated and the dangers of legalism and perfectionism became prominent.

I believe in a pre-advent judgment. As Christ ceases his ministry as our High Priest, He will bestow eschatological justification on all who have maintained genuine faith in Him. The believer’s faith will be evidenced by their works which, though far from perfect, demonstrate that they have indeed been regenerated and are fighting the good fight of faith. 

This judgment by the Omniscient One;Christ is the Judge; is the work of a moment just prior to the close of probation.  The Lord knoweth them that are his; 2nd Timothy 2:19. This judgment declaration is given in Revelation 22:11,12. Others besides Adventists have seen this as the judgment decree marking the close of probationary time. The New Testament links the Judgment with the Second Advent everywhere, not with events transpiring over a century and a half before.

Thus there is a pre-advent judgment on the eve of the second advent to decree who is to be translated and who is to be raised in the first resurrection and then another judgment at the end of the thousand years evidencing why so many fail to attain heaven see Revelation 20:4-5,11-15.

When repentant sinners accept the gospel, they are immediately given the verdict of the last judgment. Scripture calls this verdict justification;see Romans 3:21-26 and all of Romans 4, see also John 5:24. We stand in this grace all of our days, provided faith in Christ is maintained;see Romans 5:1; 1 Corinthians 1:30,31.

Scripture does teach a reward according to our works see Matthew 16:27, but it does not teach salvation by works; see Ephesians 2:8-10. 

We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone. We are not saved by faith plus works but by a faith that works. God always gives his gifts with both hands and justifies none that He does not proceed to sanctify. He does not call the leper clean and leave him to die of his disease. But the enduring rewards of the world to come are determined by our works of faith;see Matthew 25:14–ff.

As Ellen White wrote;We are not to be anxious about what Christ and God think of us, but about what God thinks of Christ, our substitute. She also writes, We are not called upon to make our peace with God, but to accept Christ who is our peace. And again, in Steps to Christ, p. 62, Christ’s character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned;see her many pages on righteousness by faith in Selected Messages, vol. I, pp. 32-33, etc.

Because believers still have a sinful nature, the need remains for the law to continue to act as a schoolmaster showing us our need of Christ. The law acts in the sanctification process though it has no part in our justification.

I have detailed the difficulties with the traditional view of the Investigative Judgment in the Glacier View manuscript;see particularly pages 174-176 of the published volume. 

I will note, however, that Uriah Smith said two things about this doctrine: first, the judgment began in 1844 and secondly, it would be short. 

No Adventist today can support both of these positions at the same time. At least one must be surrendered because the time period from 1844 until now is not a short period. 

Moreover, it is utterly impossible to biblically support the year 1844 as the beginning of the judgment. Ezra 7 was not a decree for the rebuilding of the city, but a temple decree. 

The year-day principle is not biblical as the SDA Conference President, Kai Arasola, pointed out in his book, The End of Historicism, Daniel 8:14 does not mention days, but evening and mornings—a reference to the evening and morning burnt offerings. Thus, the TEV translates, along with most scholars of all denominations, Unto 1150 days…, not 2300 days.

Adventism has been greatly hindered from proclaiming its message because so few know what the everlasting gospel really is. Seventh-day Adventists have not perceived that the gospel is the good, glad, and merry tidings that makes the heart to sing and the feet to dance. They have not recognized that we do not have to be good to be saved, but we do have to be saved to be good. 

It is not a matter of who we are but whose we are. How good God is! There is nothing we can do to make him love us more, and there is nothing we can do that will make Him love us less.&#34; Only the gospel by breaking the heart can make possible the fulfilling of the law's essence, which is unselfish love. Thus by faith the law is established and not abolished.

To further answer this question, the following represents my Glacier View position that may be found on pp. 174-176 of the printed version of the Glacier View manuscript.

The great saving truths of the Christian faith never depend upon inferential reasoning from a single text. That God is our Creator; that Christ died for our sins, that we might be forgiven; that salvation is through faith; that faith always bears fruit in obedience; that Christ will return to earth; that now He intercedes for us on high—all such truths rest on substantial, immovable foundations of Holy Writ.

Should certain texts on any of these topics be ambiguous, it matters not, for there are plenty of others that are not ambiguous. Pillars of the faith are firmly established, they do not rest on fluid, uncertain, equivocal interpretations.

When, however, we come to the SDA traditional sanctuary interpretation of 1844 and the Investigative Judgment, such is by no means the case. 

It is dependent, not upon plain didactic statements from Scripture, but upon a prolonged series of assumptions and inferences—most of which are highly debatable. Adventists have set forth dogmatic conclusions where honesty should compel the confession that the evidence is either ambiguous or contrary to Adventist traditional claims.

For example, consider the perilous dependence upon the following assumptions, many of which are interlocking in such a way that if one falls, so do the others:

That Daniel 8:14 speaks of 2300 days. While Daniel 12 repeatedly uses the Hebrew word for days, it is not to be found in 8:14. Instead we have the ambiguous evening-morning which most apply to the evening and morning burnt offerings. Thus instead of 2300 days, if these exegetes are correct, only 1150 days are in view.   

That these 2300 days equal 2300 years. Though it is quite impossible to prove that the year-day principle is a biblical datum, and even if we could, days are not mentioned in either 8:14 or 9:24, so there is no basis to apply the principle in these instances.   

That these 2300 years begin centuries before the little horn began his attack on the sanctuary. Though in the context, the 2300 days has been understood by almost all as applying to the length of time the little horn is trampling the sanctuary underfoot and suspending its daily offerings.   

That the 2300 years begin at the same time as the seventy weeks.  Though there is Scripture to say so. The Hebrew chathak means cut or decree, and there is no way of proving that the cutting off of the 490 from 2300 is intended.

That it is possible to be certain of the exact year that the seventy weeks begin. Though exegetes have never been agreed on this point. Is the decree like that of 9:23, a heavenly one from God, or one from an earthly king?   

That the decree of Artaxerxes recorded in Ezra 7 has to do with the restoring and building of Jerusalem. Though there is nothing in Ezra 7 that says this. The context says that this decree, like those of Cyrus and Darius, had to do with the temple. The magistrates were to enforce the temple laws. See Ezra 6:14 which places this decree among the temple decrees.   

That the decree of Ezra 7 went forth in 457 BC when Ezra had arrived in Jerusalem and set to work. Though Ezra never says this, and the decree had been announced at least six months earlier. There is nothing in Daniel to say that this decree should be dated from the time of its implementation rather than its enunciation.   

That 408 BC was the time when the restoration of the city was completed. Admitted even by Adventist scholars to be impossible to prove.   

That AD 27 was the date of Christ’s baptism. A similarly difficult feat.   

That AD 31 was the date of the crucifixion. Almost all scholars hold to other years, not this one. Evidence from Grace Amadon’s researches, often used by SDAs, is based on doubtful assumptions, as admitted by the SDA Bible Commentary.   

That AD 34 was the date of the gospel going to the gentiles. Though there is no way of proving that AD 34 was the time of the stoning of Stephen, and Acts 13:46 presents the turning to the gentiles at a much later date.    

That the 2300 days end with the beginning of the anti-typical Day of Atonement. Though the Day of Atonement revolved around the sacrifice for sin, an event which took place about eighteen centuries earlier. The divesting of his glorious robes by the high priest prefigured the incarnation of Christ, which did not take place in 1844. The book of Hebrews clearly applies the Day of Atonement in antitype to Christ’s priestly offering of Himself on Calvary, though the Christian era is included as we wait for our High Priest to come out.

That until this date was reached, Christ was doing that work prefigured by the first apartment outside the veil. Though Hebrews tells us that the work of that apartment symbolized the ineffectual offerings of the Levitical era when men had restricted access to God, and experienced outward ceremonial cleansing rather than perfection of the conscience.&#41;    

That the work symbolized by the second apartment of the sanctuary was not to begin till over 1800 years after the cross. Though Hebrews 9:8, 12, 24, 25; 10:19, 20; 6:19, 20 says that Christ entered &#34;within the veil at His ascension. The sprinkling of the blood on the mercy seat took place immediately after the shedding.    

That the sanctuary of Daniel 8:14 means the sanctuary in heaven. Though the context is about the sanctuary on earth.   

That cleansed is an accurate translation in Daniel 8:14. Though this is certainly not the case.   

That the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement was cleansed from defilement occasioned by the confession of sin and ministration of blood. Though Numbers 19:13, etc., indicate that the sanctuary was defiled when a person sinned, regardless of whether confession was made. In most cases, blood never went into the sanctuary.   

That the cleansing of the sanctuary in 8:14 has to do with the sins of the professed believers in Christ. Though the context has to do with a defilement accomplished by Antichrist, not the host of God’s people who are suffering, not sinning, in the context.   

That this cleansing of 8:14 is also found in Daniel 7 in its judgment scene and that the latter also has to do with the investigation of the sins of the saints. Though again, in Daniel 7, as in 8, it is a wicked power, which is the focus of the judgment.   

That Revelation 14:7 has to do with the same Investigative Judgment of the sins of the saints. Though John never uses the word krisis other than in a negative sense—for unbelievers, and though the very next verse tells us that it is Babylon that endures the judgment, as the later chapters also testify.   

That verses like Acts 3:19 point to the Investigative Judgment. None of such verses studied in context yield any such conclusion.   

That much depends upon October 22, 1844, as the beginning of the anti-typical Day of Atonement. Though October 22, 1844 was not the day observed by contemporary Jews, or even by the majority of Karaites. Neither is there evidence that the baptism of Christ, or the stoning of Stephen took place on the Day of Atonement, which would have been necessary if the 49 years, the 434, 490, and 2300 years are each precise in terminus.     

In contrast, observe that Ellen G. White could write: I saw that God was in the proclamation of the time in 1843. …Ministers were convinced of the correctness of the positions taken on the prophetic periods.  SG, p. 232.     

Observe she is talking about the 1843 terminus, not October 22, 1844. Furthermore, she is speaking of periods ending then, not just one period. Miller had over a dozen, including the 6000 years, the seven times, the 1335 days, etc., and they were all wrong.

In contrast to this traditional precision and convoluted series of assumptions, the chapter in the SDA Bible Commentary, Interpretation of Daniel, shows that such precision is contrary to the whole history of prophetic exegesis of the prophetic periods of Daniel. 

Furthermore, when the SDA Bible Dictionary refers to Daniel 8:14 in its articles on Antichrist and the little horn, it makes no reference to an investigative judgment, but speaks of Daniel 8:14 as pointing to judgment upon the little horn and restoration of true worship.

AToday: QUESTION #6 - Today, few people are familiar with the theological details of the twenty-year old Glacier View debate. No doubt some will be surprised when they see how difficult—if not impossible—it is to support the traditional view of the Investigative Judgment.  Yet, I suspect that some still cannot reconcile how one can be a true Seventh-day Adventist and reject the traditional view, which has been promoted as a landmark doctrine of the Third Angel’s Message. 

My question is this: if the Investigative Judgment was not developed and accepted until the year 1857, how can anyone call it a landmark doctrine? Wouldn’t this late date, as well as its content, actually place it well outside of the historic Third Angel’s Message of Revelation 14:9-12?

Also, did you, or any of your critics at Glacier View, take into account the distinction between the post-disappointment discovery of the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary, where Jesus would complete the atonement, blot out sins, and receive the kingdom versus the more perfectionistic Investigative Judgment doctrine that the SDAs developed later? Such a distinction, I would think, could have contributed to a much different outcome at Glacier View.

Dr. Ford: The Investigative Judgment is not one of the landmarks though the importance of the sanctuary with its emblems of the law and the gospel is a landmark. It is true to say that the more perfectionistic view of the judgment came with the passing of the decades.

At Glacier View, where most of the attendees had not read my manuscript, there was very limited discussion on the events surrounding 1844, practically nil. I myself was not permitted to join in the discussions though I did answer some questions from the delegates. I would, however, like to stress that most of the delegates at Glacier View were opposed to perfectionism. 

Today, the Glacier View consensus statement—which was sympathetic to my manuscript in a dozen key areas—had no leaning towards the perfectionism of traditional Adventism and has never been reprinted by the Church. In fact, this refusal to reprint the Consensus document was the result of the discovery, belatedly by the administrators, of what the scholars already knew—that the document endorsed many of the key positions of my Glacier View manuscript.

http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … rt1.cfm#q2

AToday: QUESTION #21 -  In the open and frank discussion on the AToday Forum, it has become apparent to many after reading your interview and searching the scriptures that the New Testament does NOT support the traditional SDA view of the Investigative Judgment. However, some have taken the position that regardless of this obvious lack of New Testament support, the Investigative Judgment doctrine can still be supported from the Old Testament ALONE. They state that this unique doctrine need not have any New Testament support for it to still be valid. They argue that this special truth has recently been revealed, unsealed in the last days to God's church. 

So, they say, this would explain why the Apostles were never informed of the 1844 date and why there is no clear reference to this doctrine in the New Testament. 

For the sake of argument, assuming that one could make a case for 1844 from the Old Testament, would this logic have any theological validity? How important is the New Testament in determining prophecy and doctrine for us today?

Dr. Ford:  IF THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT COULD BE SUPPORTED FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT ALONE, IT WOULD BE MIRACULOUS, BUT NOT SUFFICIENT!

We are not literal Jews but spiritual Israel, and the New Testament always has the casting vote on doctrine. Hebrews 1:1 contrasts the revelation through Jesus with the inferior previous revelations through the prophets. Jude 3 talks of the faith once for all entrusted to the saints, which is a reference to the New Testament gospel, which came from Christ and the apostles.

When Jesus repeatedly affirmed, But I say unto you, He was not contradicting the Old Testament, but transcending the way His contemporaries interpreted it. The Bible admonishes us seven times that, In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. No solitary text in either Testament is sufficient to make a valid doctrine, and the Old Testament without the New, is not the Christian's guide.

On the Mount of Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah vanished and the apostles saw no man but Jesus only. The word is for us. Moses and Elijah—the law and the prophets—only make sense interpreted through the Christ and the testimony He has delivered through the apostles.  If 1844 cannot be supported from the New Testament, then it cannot be considered a valid Christian doctrine. It cannot, so it is not!

See the rest of the interview here:

http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … /intro.cfm

Don, I suggest that you read the rest of his interview and see for yourself what Dr. Ford is saying about the YDP and many other things.  It has been online for years, and no one has yet to refute a single word!

Traditional Adventism is a Fraud

In conclusion, TA is a fraud, created by the scheming, legalistic, Takoma Park apologists.  There is no question that the White Estate is guilty of publishing a false story about Ellen White and church history for their own, self-serving reasons.   

There is doubt that the SDA’s have the wrong view of the Gospel and the Judgment as well as the entire Three Angels Messages.  They have embraced one error after another until there is hardly any truth left.   

The Denomination is so horribly confused and off track that they have developed a hierarchical church system that mimics the RCC and repudiates the fundamentals of the Protestant faith.  Their establishment of an anti-Gospel hierarchy, which is supported by the Old Covenant doctrine of Temple Tithing, proves that they have repudiated the New Covenant in favor of their own cultic doctrines.

Today the SDA’s stand guilty of repudiating the Gospel and the Judgment, misunderstanding the Bible and Adventist Eschatology.  They have even gone so far as to persecute those, like Dr. Ford, who tried to honestly correct and save them.

Woe are the SDA’s if they do not admit what they have done and zealously repent.   

Woe to the Adventists if they do not return to the original version of the Three Angels Messages.

Woe to all that continue to embrace the fraud of Traditional Adventism and play along with the dishonest fraud of the White Estate. 

It is time for the SDA’s to repent and reform.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB