Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 03-23-12 12:23 pm

Bob wrote: When Jesus says He fulfilled the Sabbath, the 2nd Covenant is said by Him to have better promises, I believe we should be prepared to see them when they are read.

Tom said: STOP, STOP, And STOP. *** Jesus NEVER claimed that he fulfilled the Sabbath!

Bsheilds said: Bob is correct. It is you, (Tom) who like all SDAs that have a veil covering their eyes, that cannot render correctly. Matt 5: 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. These verses condemn your thoughts either way you want to believe…

Tom said: Matt 5: 17 is not trying to articulate the NC Sabbath doctrine as you pretend. If you want to understand what Jesus, the self-proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath, teaches about the NC Sabbath, then go to the numerous passages that speak to this point.

There are NO passages that teach Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath. Nor did Jesus ever make such a statement. Matt 5: 17 in no way settles the issue about what type of Sabbath doctrine, if any, is taught by Christ. Which is why you run to it.

The NCT crowd refuses to admit that Jesus teaches a reformed, active, Gospel Sabbath. So they overlook scores of passages about the Sabbath in order to select one or two special texts that supposedly say what they want to hear.

Jesus words in Matt 5 are not about the Sabbath. This topic does not even enter the book of Matt until Chapter 12. Here is where this Gospel introduces Jesus’ NC Sabbath, which goes on for the next 17 verses.

HERE is the correct passage in Matthew to study the Sabbath of Christ.

But of course the NCT crowd is so dishonest and full of hate towards the Sabbath, that they can’t see what Jesus is really teaching about the NC Sabbath. Nor do they want to. They have found some obscure passage that they like, and they are eager to make it say what they want so they can defend their false doctrine.

Such outrageous dishonesty in the name of Christ is absurd. NCT is not honest, nor does it speak for Christ or the Gospel. It has a very dishonest and misleading hermeneutic.

Bsheilds said: If you cannot see that the Sabbath along with all the remainder of the law has been fulfilled then you have to believe that the law is still binding and not one small letter nor the least stroke of a pen has been changed.

Tom replied: Stop this delusion about Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath. He NEVER made such a point about the Sabbath. NCT repudiates what Jesus teaches. NCT is based on purposeful fiction and myth, created to attack the Sabbath.

So I don’t “see” that the Sabbath has been “fulfilled” by Christ, nor is there any such prophecy or mission about such a fulfillment by the Messiah in the entire Bible.

NCT is based on words games, and on ignoring the numerous passages in the Gospels where Jesus clearly teaches his reformed, NC Sabbath. Only a “blind” person could miss the Sabbath of Christ.

Bsheilds said: Since you have to believe the latter (law) because you still believe there is an existing Sabbath then you are disregarding Jesus words by adding and taking away.

Tom said: The Moral law has never been viewed by Jesus or the church as abolished. (See Matt 5: 17) However, the law does not save, nor is the Christian to live under it.

Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath upholds the general doctrine of the Sabbath as a memorial to the Creation Story of the Jews, even as it exempts all his followers from the rule against work on the Sabbath.

So Jesus NC Sabbath is designed to re-enforce the superiority of the Gospel over the law. The Gospel Sabbath cannot condemn anyone who follows Christ.

The law of the 4th Commandment, with its' prohibitions against work on pain of death, does not apply to the NC Christian. Jesus teaches a better, more active and free, NC, Sabbath doctrine because the Gospel is greater than law.

Bshields said: In that latter scenario you have proceeded to remove the meat of the Sabbath law.

Tom said: What is the heart of OC Sabbath keeping? First and foremost, it is a weekly memorial to Creation, one that was congregational in nature. Second, it prohibited work on the Sabbath for everyone but the Priests.

What is the heart of NC Sabbath keeping? It is still a weekly memorial to the Creation Story. It is still a congregational day, but now, it is meant to celebrate the Gospel and the creation of the Church. It is also a day for good works and activity, not rest.

Bsheilds said: You tell us that we can work on the Sabbath and do our own pleasure. In fact what you are telling us is that Jesus is nothing but a liar.

Tom said: It is Christ who “tells us” about what can be done on the Sabbath. Not Tom Norris. So you must stop ignoring the many Gospel passages where Jesus teaches the NC Sabbath and study his words.

Jesus has plenty to say about the Sabbath. I suggest that you study the proper passages in the NT instead of ignoring them.

Bsheilds said: According to you the law, which includes the Sabbath is still binding, but the jots and pen strokes have blotted out the full meaning of the institution.

Tom said: The REFORMED, NC Sabbath of Christ is binding on the church, just like all his other teachings. Thus there cannot be a Sunday Sabbath, nor can there be a non-working, resting Sabbath, like in the OC. Nor can there be an "Everyday" spiritual Sabbath as NCT teaches. There can only be an active, free, and reformed, 7th day Sabbath, where work is not prohibited whatsoever. THIS is what Jesus teaches for the church.

Bsheilds: Tom, I hate to break the news to you, but you are one sick puppy.

Tom said: Ha! This is old news. It was the typical reaction to the genuine Gospel Sabbath in the 1st century. The religious leaders were stunned at Jesus Sabbath teaching and behavior; it did not fit with their traditional, law-based theology. They thought he was mentally sick, even insane!

So yes, the Gospel Sabbath is a stunner! It sounds impossible, even as it is, like the Gospel, a great oxymoron. No wonder that Jesus Gospel teachings, which featured his reformed, active Sabbath, caused so much debate and controversy. Many thought he had gone crazy or that the devil had taken control of him.

John 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.

John 9:15 Then the Pharisees also were asking him again how he received his sight. And he said to them, “He applied clay to my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”

John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.

John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”

John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”

The Sabbath debates between Christ and the religious leaders of his day cannot be ignored by anyone that wants to understand what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. NCT is very wrong to pretend that Jesus does not teach a NC Sabbath. It is clear that he does, over and over again for all to see.

Bsheilds said: You and SDAs are spreading falsehoods that have ruined the bliss of being a New Covenant Christian by adding works to the plan of salvation experience, too bad.

Tom said: I am not promoting the SDA Sabbath, or much of anything that they teach. So please don’t make such a false and unfair accusation.

The fact that you are having such a hard time comprehending the Gospel Sabbath is because you refuse to be honest with the Word. You, and many other refugees from the SDA church, have been so beaten up with the wrong, OC Sabbath, that you cannot see the correct NC doctrine that is right in front of your face.

Which is ironic, because many of Jesus remarks about the Gospel Sabbath had to do with blind people, both physically blind and spiritually blind. NCT is the latter, and so too any that follow this worthless teaching.

Luke 6:39 And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that chose who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

In conclusion, NCT is poison. It is no better than the many false doctrines that the SDA’s or Mormons teach.

So what's the point of exchanging one set of false doctrines for another? It is truth that is needed, not more myths and sloppy hermeneutics.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bshields · 03-23-12 4:06 pm

Tom, in your mind was the 10 Commandments part of the Torah or OC law? Did Jesus tell us in Matt 5 that the law would be fulfilled?

Are you abiding by the special tenets of the OC law?

If you believe that the Sabbath law was part of the OC law or Torah then how did it escape being fulfilled?

How did, as SDAs believe, only parts of the Torah disappear?

Please show the verses from Jesus that release Jews from doing their own pleasure on the 10 Commandment Sabbath.

Please show, from Jesus words, where Jews were been released from not working on the OC Sabbath. I won't consider some obscure verse that only skirts the issue.

I have shown from scripture that Christians have been released from all the OC law. You completely skirt that issue. You preach that there are no rules for tithing because they are not part of the NC yet you cling to one of the laws and morph it into some weird celebration without any meaning.

So far I haven't heard of people flocking to you and making your their guru, so I don't believe I am missing the real truth.

tom_norris · 03-24-12 12:01 pm

Bsheilds asked: Tom, in your mind was the 10 Commandments part of the Torah or OC law?

Tom replied: This is not about what I think, but what the NT teaches. Our opinions do not matter. Only the Gospel teachings of Christ are truth.

Of course the 10 C’s are part of the Torah, and part of the OC. Uriah Smith was very wrong to pretend that the Decalogue was not part of the OC. This was the specific error that set the stage for the 1888 debates.

Bsheilds asked: Did Jesus tell us in Matt 5 that the law would be fulfilled?

Tom said: Jesus is not saying that he fulfilled the Sabbath in this passage. While this is what you need him to say in order to defend NCT, he is not saying it here or in any other passage.

Jesus is making it clear that he is not an advocate of lawlessness, which means he did not come to abolish the Law or the Sabbath as the NCT crowd claims. It also means that it is still wrong to commit murder, or adultery, etc., which Christ now teaches need only be a thought, and not just an action.

Matt. 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Matt. 5:18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not 1the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Matt. 5:19 “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matt. 5:20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matt. 5:21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’

Matt. 5:22 “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

In Matt 5, Jesus is not teaching the Gospel, but rather THE LAW. He is upholding the Moral law, applying it even to our thoughts; letting everyone know that it has not been removed as a guide for behavior or the Judgment.

Matt. 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’;

Matt. 5:28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

So this passage is not about Jesus “fulfilling the Sabbath” or abolishing the law. Nor is it about the Gospel Sabbath, which is explained in other passages.

Bsheilds asked: Are you abiding by the special tenets of the OC law?

Tom said: The Gospel Sabbath is a unique doctrine to the NC. It is very different from the OC, non-working Sabbath. Those that confuse the two will never understand the Gospel.

Bsheilds said: If you believe that the Sabbath law was part of the OC law or Torah then how did it escape being fulfilled?

Tom said: There was never any OT passage where the Messiah was predicted to fulfill the Sabbath. Nor did Jesus ever claim to be the fulfillment of this ancient doctrine that he would reform for the church.

NCT depends on a false reading of the NT. Their theory only works if they force passages to say what they are not saying, even as they ignore the very passages that speak about the NC Sabbath. So they are fools on purpose.

Bsheilds said: How did, as SDAs believe, only parts of the Torah disappear?

Tom said: It was the early church that figured out the difference between the Moral and Ceremonial laws. The
SDA’s just embraced what had long been correctly established.

So what has disappeared from the OC?

Answer: The Temple and the Leviticial Priesthood have been abolished, even destroyed by the Romans to make sure they will never come back.

So while there can be no OC Temple rituals or ceremonial laws, there is a NC Temple, the Church, with NC ceremonies, Eucharist, Baptism, and the Gospel Sabbath.

The Moral law still exits in the NC, it has not been abolished as NCT claims. No denomination teaches such a point, not even the RC’s. So here is another great error of NCT that shows their views outside the Christian Faith.

The Moral law still plays a role in the NC. Those who say otherwise are not following either Christ or Paul.

Bsheilds said: Please show the verses from Jesus that release Jews from doing their own pleasure on the 10 Commandment Sabbath.

Tom said: First off, the issue is not about “our own pleasure,” but about work versus no work. To do work is to do our own pleasure. To rest and not work is required by law under pain of death.

When Jesus demonstrated, taught, and defended his new view of the Sabbath, which was based on a change in the Priesthood, he was doing this for the church. Jesus view of the Sabbath is the correct view for his church. This is why he taught it so much in all four Gospels.

I suggest that you actually study the NC Sabbath teachings of Christ, and follow him; as if he were the Good Shepherd and we are his sheep. It is pointless to pretend that NCT represents the Sabbath doctrine of Christ. Those that take such a view are not following Christ. They are not his sheep, and he is not their shepherd.

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

Besheilds said: Please show, from Jesus words, where Jews were been released from not working on the OC Sabbath.

Tom said: Any that are ashamed of Jesus NC Sabbath teachings, will not be saved. That goes for this NCT nonsense that refuses to acknowledge that Jesus even teaches a weekly Gospel Sabbath for the church. Moreover, those who pretend they can’t find Jesus Sabbath teaching are playing a fools game.

Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Bsheilds said: I won't consider some obscure verse that only skirts the issue. I have shown from scripture that Christians have been released from all the OC law. You completely skirt that issue.

Tom said: NCT is built on the use of obscure and manipulated passages, even as they deny that Jesus teaches a NC Sabbath for the church. Such blindness is fatal.

Bsheilds said: You preach that there are no rules for tithing because they are not part of the NC yet you cling to one of the laws and morph it into some weird celebration without any meaning.

Tom said: Tithe was for the Levites, who managed the Temple. There are no Levites in the church, nor an earthly Temple of stone. Thus there cannot be tithe, which is why there is no mention of this practice in the apostolic church. They did not practice this OC doctrine, even thought the SDA’s pretend otherwise. They are great liars and fools for teaching such self-serving nonsense.

Jesus was not the Lord of tithe, but of the Sabbath doctrine. While Jesus NEVER paid tithe, much less taught this doctrine for the church, he did practice, proclaim, and defend his new view of the Gospel Sabbath. Over and over we see Jesus teaching and promoting his NC Sabbath, which comes with an EXEMPTION from the law of the 4th Commandment regarding work and behavior on the 7th day.

Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Luke 6:5 And He was saying to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

This idea that Jesus’ NC Sabbath is a “weird celebration without any meaning” is absurd and blasphemous. Such an arrogant and demeaning view of Jesus Sabbath teaching demonstrates how much hatred the NCT crowd has towards the Sabbath and the Gospel. Anyone who can so attack Christ has shown his or her true colors. They are not sheep but wolves that would have killed Christ if they had such an opportunity.

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

The Jews hated Jesus new Sabbath doctrine. Even when Christ told them it came from God, they would not believe. NCT is following the same path of hatred towards the Gospel Sabbath.

John 12:45 “He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.

John 12:46 “I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.

John 12:47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

John 12:49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

John 12:50 “I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

Those who deny Jesus Gospel Sabbath, will remain in darkness. Those who make things up, like NCT, and ignore or deny the Sabbath teachings of Christ will be doomed in the Judgment.

Besheilds said: So far I haven't heard of people flocking to you and making you their guru, so I don't believe I am missing the real truth.

Tom said: Gospel truth is not defined by popularity or the teachings of guru’s. Moreover, this idea that we should look to others before we believe Jesus is very wrong and dangerous. In fact, this is what the Jewish leaders did.

John 7:43 So a division occurred in the crowd because of Him.

John 7:44 Some of them wanted to seize Him, but no one laid hands on Him.

John 7:45 The officers then came to the chief priests and Pharisees, and they said to them, “Why did you not bring Him?”

John 7:46 The officers answered, “Never has a man spoken the way this man speaks.”

John 7:47 The Pharisees then answered them, “You have not also been led astray, have you?

John 7:48 “No one of the rulers or Pharisees has believed in Him, has he?

Truth is truth regardless how many believe. But alas, only a "few" will understand the Gospel and be saved. Most will never come close, including those who embrace the OC Sabbath, like the SDA's, or the fraud of NCT.

Luke 13:23 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them,

Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for the 7th day Gospel Sabbath

cadge · 04-09-12 12:15 pm

Tom, on 9-16-10, on this thread at 5:34 p.m. You asked me to give a report on the Twelve Tribes Communities view on the Sabbath. I had mentioned that they had a view similar to yours on a working Sabbath. What I did not mention was how I concluded that. What happened was that I took a ride over to their place one Sabbath and found that many of the folks were over at a job site where they were busy renovating and constructing a restaurant. I asked Gene Spriggs, the founder of their sect, why they were all there working. He smiled and said "Well we don't always work on Sabbath, but we had to have a push to complete this project in time for the fall semester to begin at the college next door. This is the means of ministry which our Father (God) gave us to evangelize with. We have had our brothers come from several communities throughout the USA come to help us because they see our need and know the intent of the Lord and the importance in having this completed on time. Our ox is in the ditch"

On another occasion I stopped by and inquired of a couple of folks that I often spoke with who were not present at the time. I was informed that they were out finishing up a roofing job that that had taken on in order to get it covered before a heavy storm that was coming that they had not anticipated.

I was kind of surprised at the time to their position on working on the sabbath because of how I'd related to it from my SDA experience, but they felt quite confident in their practice, but of course then, by their communal life, they are always in church and walk with and live for God without breaking connection by all the interferences that the rest of the Jews and Christians of the world do. They believe that they represent the true body that Jesus came to establish, and that it was to be a communal body as depicted in acts 2 and 4, and that they were to replicate and spread throughout the whole world. They belive that only this can be the remnant and the true city that is set on a hill giving it's light to all the world as they live in harmony laying down their lives in love to supply each others needs and to live to the glory of God. They believe that this is the true "way, truth, and life, and that Jesus did not come to just present a theory of the kingdom, but gave practical demonstration as he picked his disciples from a cross section of society and laid the foundation of the life as they communed with each other and labored with their hands to meet their needs while one of them was the treasurer of the proceeds of their labors. This communal life blossomed and grew and expanded under Paul's and the other Apostles ministries too. When Peter was released from prison by the angel, the angel said to him, "go into the temple courts and preach all the words of this life". The only life that the new church was living then was the communal one where they gave up possessions and lived in houses that served as their places of worship too.

I'm just giving some backround so that you and others who are not familiar with what I'm saying can have a little understanding. My primary intent is to let you know that they have a publication online on one of their sites where they disclose why they believe that the Sabbath is still relevant to the followers of Yahshua.

Here is the site and publication:

http://www.twelvetribes.com/publication … ervant-god

http://www.twelvetribes.org/sites/defau … of-god.pdf

Cadge

bshields · 04-10-12 9:25 am

Tom, are the following your answers to my questions in total? If they are I find them to be totally lacking anything but an evasive canned response.

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Give me scriptural proof that Jesus released Jews to do everyday manual labor on the Sabbath. So far you are batting -0-.

Besheilds said: Please show, from Jesus words, where Jews were been released from not working on the OC Sabbath.

Tom said: Any that are ashamed of Jesus NC Sabbath teachings, will not be saved. That goes for this NCT nonsense that refuses to acknowledge that Jesus even teaches a weekly Gospel Sabbath for the church. Moreover, those who pretend they can’t find Jesus Sabbath teaching are playing a fools game.

Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Bsheilds said: I won't consider some obscure verse that only skirts the issue. I have shown from scripture that Christians have been released from all the OC law. You completely skirt that issue.

Tom said: NCT is built on the use of obscure and manipulated passages, even as they deny that Jesus teaches a NC Sabbath for the church. Such blindness is fatal.

So far your NC Sabbath is built on the figment of your imagination. My passages are not in any way manipulated. You can say they are, but you have yet to prove them to be. So far all I get are words, words and more words. I want scripture. If i am to believe what you are preaching I need it all backed up with scripture. I do that for you why can't you reciprocate?

Last edited by bshields (04-10-12 9:27 am)

tom_norris · 04-19-12 11:18 am

Cadge said: Tom, on 9-16-10, on this thread at 5:34 p.m. You asked me to give a report on the Twelve Tribes Communities view on the Sabbath.

I had mentioned that they had a view similar to yours on a working Sabbath.

What I did not mention was how I concluded that. What happened was that I took a ride over to their place one Sabbath and found that many of the folks were over at a job site where they were busy renovating and constructing a restaurant.

Tom replied: Good Job! I went to their web site

I can see that they have not fallen for this - “Every Day, No Day, Jesus fulfilled, - then abolished the Sabbath day” talk of the NCT crowd. They correctly understand that the 7th day is a special day for the church.

However, they seem legalistic to me. I did not find the NC Sabbath of Christ in their writings or much of the Gospel. They seem too OC minded, much like the SDA’s.

Cadge said: What happened was that I took a ride over to their place one Sabbath and found that many of the folks were over at a job site where they were busy renovating and constructing a restaurant.

I asked Gene Spriggs, the founder of their sect, why they were all there working.

He smiled and said "Well we don't always work on Sabbath, but we had to have a push to complete this project in time for the fall semester to begin at the college next door.... Our ox is in the ditch"

Tom replied: Their reason for working on the 7th day is the same as the Jews. It was an emergency. So this is the OC Sabbath, not the NC doctrine.

The NC Sabbath does not use the excuse of an emergency for working. There is no need for it. One may work on the Sabbath regardless of any emergency.

Had it not been an emergency, (in their view), I think they would have claimed it wrong to work on the Sabbath, just like the Jews.

But this is not what Jesus teaches. He went out of his way to make sure the healing he did on the Sabbath were NOT emergencies. He was trying to make a point about the NC Sabbath, one that has escaped many.

They also speak about resting on the Sabbath. But the NC Sabbath is not about resting, but about activity on the 7th day. They have failed to grasp this point. They do not seem to understand the Gospel or the NC Sabbath correctly.

So at least they understand that Sunday is wrong.

They also have eschatology, which is something that NCT does not seem to have.

Note what they believe about the end:

The Last Days and the Coming Millennial Age

We believe that the world is on a course towards one world government and one world religion, which will ultimately join together in an oppressive tyranny, bringing the world to the brink of destruction. This will fulfill the prophetic dream of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, recorded in the book of the prophet Daniel,43 as well as the prophecies of the last days recorded in the New Testament.
As the boundaries are broken down between nations, and their ancient cultures give way to the emerging global, multicultural society, so will the absolute moral standards embodied in these cultures give way to the law of political correctness. Most people will become more and more like the Evil One, giving themselves to every selfish desire, regardless of the consequences, increasing the ranks of the Unjust and Filthy.44 Few will withstand the pressure to compromise their conscience.45

At the same time, the true followers of Yahshua, the Messiah, will become more and more like their Master, increasing in their love and care for one another, and their unity as a twelve-tribed spiritual nation.46 Just as the needy and the humble were drawn to our Master Yahshua when He walked the earth, and the proud were repelled and infuriated by Him, so it will be with His people.47 Their light will attract those who hate their lives in this fallen world, and it will repel and irritate those who are exposed and threatened by the disciples” life.48

Ultimately they will be driven out of society by a world government dominated by the Man of Lawlessness.49 They will flee to the wilderness where they will endure the last few years of this age.50 During this time their purification will be completed,51 while in the world from which they fled, the degradation of man will reach its limit.52 This will be the moment when Yahshua, the Son of God, descends from heaven and gathers His followers to fight the war that brings this age to an end.53 The armies of the Man of Lawlessness will gather in the Plain of Megiddo to try to destroy the Messiah, Yahshua, and His holy ones.54 But He will be victorious and will cleanse the earth of all evil. The Evil One himself will be bound,55 and Yahshua will take His throne in Jerusalem to rule the earth with His holy ones for 1000 years of peace and restoration.56

At the end of that millennium, the Evil One will be released for a short time to test the hearts of men, and he will lead many astray. His rebellious army will be consumed, and the Evil One himself cast into the Lake of Fire, the second death. Finally, all who have died on the earth in all the ages will be resurrected for the final judgment.

http://www.twelvetribes.com/about/what- … eve?page=2

Their view of death and eschatology is also not correct, So there is not a lot here to see.

The Judgment and Man’s Eternal Destiny

We believe that human beings are eternal creatures, having an immortal soul and spirit that will exist forever.57 Each person’s eternal destiny depends on how he lives his life on this earth.58 There are three eternal destinies, one for each of the three distinct categories of men: 1) the Unjust and Filthy; 2) the Righteous; and 3) the Holy.59

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However, we must be careful to let God work: This group, as individuals, will have to answer to Christ in the Judgment Day, just like everyone else.

Mark 9:38 John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.”

Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, “Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.

Mark 9:40 “For he who is not against us is for us.

No church in Laodicea can claim correct doctrine, and this group is no exception. So they are called to repent like everyone else for their doctrinal errors in the LM, - which is the true PAJ of the last church.

The Advent Movement, with its prophetic paradigm of the Three Angels Messages, is a far better path for the modern church. If the SDA’s could only correct their errors and update their misunderstood and confused doctrines, they would have an electrifying and credible, Gospel message.

If the Advent Movement would repent and focus on Gospel truth, they would come alive with a meaningful message about the end of the world. That’s what is taking place in Rev 18. But they are not there as yet. No church has reached this state of development and Gospel maturity.

Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

Adventist Must Go Forward

This is where the Adventists must migrate. They must go forward from the 3rd Angels Message of Rev 14 to the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18. This is the prophetic path for the church to follow.

The Advent Movement must repent and go forward with correct doctrine and credible eschatology, even with the genuine pillars of the Three Angels Messages, including the active and reformed, 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

It is time.

Tom Norris, for the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ

tom_norris · 05-18-12 1:28 pm

Bsheilds said: Tom, you are the pot calling the kettle black. Hubert is hell bent on tithing and you are hell bent on some false reformed Sabbath.

Tom replied: Tom Norris is focused on REFORMING Adventism from an OC paradigm into a NC version. Why is this a bad thing? The SDA Community has been very wrong to be so legalistic all these years. We all know this, except for a few remaining TSDA’s, like Hub, who have chosen to remain blind.

So what is the cure? What should be done? Destroy everything Adventist? Complain endlessly? No.

The problem needs to be fixed.

The OC minded SDA’s need to repent and move forward, becoming NC, Gospel based Adventists. I am not trying to marginalize or destroy the Advent Movement, like so many angry critics are doing. This is not the answer, nor will it solve anything.

Moreover, Hub is not so much in love with tithing as he is in love with Traditional, OC Adventism. Of which tithe, the IJ, and Sunday laws play such a primary role. Many TSDA’s will go to their grave embracing OC Judaism, err, I mean OC Adventism. They refuse to repent and embrace the genuine Gospel of Christ. They have chosen Moses over Christ, even the OC Sabbath of the Pharisees.

Behsields said: Hubert, You skipped over the unclean meat issue. Was that intentional? Does the NT re-introduce the laws governing what we eat as far as clean and unclean?

Tom said: Actually, the Jerusalem counsel did try to promote Kosher for all Christians.

Acts 15:19 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,

Acts 15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

Bob said: bshields, I think has pointed out as I have, Jesus was born under the OC, so His statements about tithing that the leaders should tithe as well as be just, this is still Old Covenant times.

Tom said: OC Judaism was based on tithe. When the OC was operating, some Jews were supposed to pay tithe. However, the NC abolished the Levites and tithe, as well as the Temple, etc.

Jesus never paid tithe, and neither did the apostles. There can be no tithing in the church, much less a hierarchy where one group (pastors) pretends they are like the Levites, ruling over all others, - supported by tithe. Such an OC system in the church is wrong.

Bob said: Not until Jesus dies does the New Covenant begin.

Tom said: Wrong. Jesus death ratified the NC, which started with the birth of Christ.

Bob said: Yes, a preacher preaching the gospel should expect to be able to survive with gifts and offerings from those benefiting.

Tom said: This is what Jesus taught. He never taught that his disciples were to practice tithing.

Bob said: I have never condemned tithing. I think it is self defeating.

Tom said: Anyone that does NOT condemn tithing in the church, has an incorrect view of the NC. There can be no tithing in the church for many reasons. It was banished, along with the Levites. Tithe supports the Temple and its useless OC services. It was unthinkable by those who followed Christ. Which is why the apostolic church never, never, never embraced tithing.

Tithe is not God’s will as the SDA’s incorrectly teach. They are great blasphemers and incompetent guides for all to see.

Bob said: But bshields and Tom are correct, no place in the NC/NT does it state what should be given for Paul's survival or others. They willfully gave but it does not say how it was figured.

Tom said: The NT is clear that there was no tithing in the church. They “shared” – not tithed. Study this point and understand that the facts are clear about how the apostolic church was supported and financed. No need to pretend the NT has left anything out.

Bob said: But I am more concerned that "another gospel" is being taught by hanging on to the Sabbath fulfilled by our Savior.

Tom said: First off, anyone who fails to condemn tithing in the church, fails to understand the Gospel. Tithe is not a Gospel doctrine, nor will it ever become such. It is a doctrine of OC law.

Second, Jesus did not fulfill the Sabbath. So stop pretending this myth is real. Jesus never taught any such point. But he did teach a reformed doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath for the church.

Third, those who follow Christ must also embrace his teaching about the NC Sabbath as well as tithe and church organization. While the SDA’s and the Sunday keepers have failed to get this correct, so to the NCT crowd. Their view of the Sabbath is absurd, impossible, and wrong.

When the Gospel is correctly understood, so too the 7th day NC Sabbath of Christ, as well as how to organize and finance the local church.

Bob said: It is so clear in Col 2:16, 17; and 2 Cor 3; and Heb 8:13; and Heb 4 with the uniquely used sabbitismos. Yet for some reason, the NT can not be read clearly by the tSDA so the church does projects like hatcheting up the Great Controversy into The Good Hope, salvaging EGW in this way is almost laughable, yet it is being done rather than preaching pure scripture.

Tom said: Ha! What is clear is this: you refuse to embrace the NC Sabbath of Christ, which is taught in all four Gospels.

The few passages you cite to explain the Sabbath in the NT, are not the primary sources. So stop playing games with the NT. The search for truth must be done honestly or not at all.

This idea that Paul is the Lord of the Sabbath, - is absurd. Jesus is the author of the NC Sabbath. He is the source for this Gospel doctrine.

Go to the Gospels and study the many, many passages where he teaches, defends, and promotes a reformed, 7th day Gospel Sabbath.
All that want to understand the doctrine of the Sabbath IN THE NEW COVENANT, must go to Christ in the Gospels and learn directly from him, the Lord of the Sabbath doctrine.

Bob said: As we have people bragging they gave up sports and other activities to honor the Sabbath. In one case, I heard a father bragging about his son who on Friday evening, played basketball until sundown and came out of the game, to honor the Sabbath hours. Is this not bragging about effort to save oneself with nothing to back it, than OC/OT words???

Tom said: I agree. The SDA’s have embraced the OC Sabbath, not the one that Jesus teaches in the Gospels. The SDA’s are flaming legalists and Judaizers. This is their problem. And until they repent of their many false views, and only embrace the 7th day Sabbath of Christ, they are doomed.

Anyone that has the wrong Gospel, is also going to have the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath, etc. So while the SDA’s were correct to promote a 7th day Sabbath for the church, they ended up embracing the doctrine of the Pharisees, the enemies of Christ, as well as tithing, and other errors.
The SDA’s have embraced the OC Sabbath, NOT the NC version in the Gospels. THIS is the point that must be understood and CORRECTED.

Bob said: Is this not "another gospel"? Obsolete is the Old Covenant, all of it, not picking and choosing moral over ceremonial.

Tom said: Anyone in the church that embraces the OC Sabbath, as well as OC Tithing, has embraced “another Gospel” and a false Christ. Absolutely. And this is what the SDA’s have done with both hands. (And so too every other denomination as well). This is why the Advent Movement, which started out Protestant and full of the Gospel, must be reformed. The SDA’s have the wrong 7th day Sabbath, as well as the wrong Gospel. They need to repent.

If the leaders refuse, then let the people find new leaders and thus the Advent Movement will move forward regardless, - to better understand Gospel Eschatology and prepare for the end of the world and the 2nd Coming. This is still the primary mission.

Hub, the TSDA said: Tom, You must be getting mellow in your old age!

Tom said: If you think so, just set up an online discussion with Goldstein or someone from the White Estate. Then you will understand that you have made a wrong assumption.

Besides, the TSDA’s have long ago been defeated. The IJ is a dead doctrine. Anyone with a brain and a Bible has already figured this out by now, which is why so many SDA’s have left…

So the IJ crowd no longer tries to defend TA over here. It is futile. This allows us to focus on other issues, like the NC Sabbath, which all SDA’s also have wrong. Who knew?

In fact, the last time I saw a TA over here was when Bill Sorenson tried to defend the OC Sabbath. He failed for all to see and has not been back since. See for yourself:

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

It seems the SDA’s can no longer defend their view of the Sabbath. They are shocked to see that there is another 7th day Sabbath in the NT. They thought they had found the only one. But the Sabbath of Moses is not the same as the Sabbath of Christ.

So the SDA’s are getting more confused and disoriented as time goes on. They are not even trying to search for new truth. Rather, they are content to waste their time defending error. They are very much like the Jews. Sad.

The NC Sabbath

Now that the TSDA’s have fled public discussion, the primary debate these days is with the anti-SDA crowd that are hell bent on destroying anything associated with Adventism.

This large crowd of former SDA critics is so angry about how they were raised, (legalistically, dishonestly), that they hate anything to do with the Sabbath and thus they have embraced this nonsense called NCT.

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953

It’s just as bad as any myth that the SDA’s have taught. But this crowd is not looking for truth. They seem revengeful against their former cultic masters. But this is not the right attitude to find Gospel truth. Somehow, I had hoped you might find your way out of cultic Adventism and into the NC version that is trying to emerge. But I guess not.

Hub said: As for tithe, I have given the main documentation that I know of to support tithing from the Old Testament and from the New.  

Tom said: Hub, You are not being honest with the Word or this discussion. I know that you have been involved in numerous tithe discussions where legions of texts were placed on the table.

Moreover, there are numerous web sites and books that deal with this controversial topic, where the discussion is also based on numerous passages that you pretend don’t matter.

So you have ignored all manner of passages about tithe, as if they did not exist. Sad. This is how the TSDA’s deal with everything they don’t like. They just ignore the facts that prove them wrong, and then declare victory. Very dishonest.

Hub said: I don't believe that a Christian can separate the Old from the New Testament and get the message of God for us. 

Tom said: Wrong. The “Message of God” to us, which is the Gospel, can never be correctly understood unless there is a clear SEPERATION between the Old and New Covenants. This is why Luther says the real test of any theologian is how well they SEPARATE Law from the Gospel. Listen to Luther

“Whoever knows well how to distinguish the Gospel from the Law should give thanks to God and know that he is a real theologian.”

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/tex … l2-14.html

This is a fundamental point of the Protestant Movement and the fact that you have embraced the opposite view speaks volumes. But this is the way it is with all TSDA’s. While they attack the RC’s, they have also followed their views about many things. Sad.

Listen to Spurgeon:

"There is no point on which men make greater mistakes than on the relation which exists between the law and the gospel.”
“Some men put the law instead of the gospel; others put gospel instead of the law.”
“A certain class maintains that the law and the gospel are mixed...These men understand not the truth and are false teachers."

(C.H. Spurgeon, New Park Street Pulpit, 1855).

The SDA’s represent the third class, above. They have created a blended Gospel, just like the Judaizers in Galatians and the RCC.

Hub, you have not made any progress in understanding the Gospel have you? You still embrace the same stale theology as before Glacier View. Sad.

Here are your comments from the past, proving that you have not learned anything:

Hub Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 11:28 pm: At JR’s site: Faith and Works Again thread.

Hub said: Justification, sanctification, faith, love. How can a person separate these concepts?

If person is justified, he is a "new creature".

Sounds like sanctification is a part of justification.

Can a person have faith without also having love? The gospel is an integrated whole, not a collection of parts that need to be put together.
---------------------------------------------------

See also:

http://www.atomorrow.com/cgi-bin/discus … &page=4083

Of course such a view is wrong. It is the RCC that has built their theology on a blended Gospel, mixing the Tow Covenants, instead of separating them, and keeping them separated and distinct.

Fail to understand this theological point, and the genuine Gospel can never be understood.
Listen to Luther:

Now the first sermon, and doctrine, is the law of God.

The second is the gospel.

These two sermons are not the same.

Therefore we must have a good grasp of the matter in order to know how to differentiate between them.
We must know what the law is, and what the gospel is.

The law commands and requires us to do certain things. The law is thus directed solely to our behavior and consists in making requirements. For God speaks through the law, saying, “Do this, avoid that, this is what I expect of you.”

The gospel, however, does not preach what we are to do or to avoid. It sets up no requirements but reverses the approach of the law, does the very opposite, and says, “This is what God has done for you; he has let his Son be made flesh for you, has let him be put to death for your sake.”
So, then, there are two kinds of doctrine and two kinds of works, those of God and those of men.

Just as we and God are separated from one another, so also these two doctrines are widely separated from one another. For the gospel teaches exclusively what has been given us by God, and not—as in the case of the law—what we are to do and give to God.

http://lutherantheology.wordpress.com/2 … aw-gospel/

Let all SDA’s pay attention to Luther. He is an expert in understanding the law and the Gospel, while the SDA’s are clueless and very wrong.
Here is more Luther:

"It seems a small matter to mingle the Law and Gospel, faith and works, but it creates more mischief than man's brain can conceive. To mix Law and Gospel not only clouds the knowledge of grace, it cuts out Christ altogether."

"This difference between the Law and the Gospel is the height of knowledge in Christendom. Every person and all persons who assume or glory in the name of Christian should know and be able to state this difference.

If this ability is lacking, one cannot tell a Christian from a heathen or a Jew; of such supreme importance is this differentiation. This is why St. Paul so strongly insists on a clean-cut and proper differentiating of these two doctrines."

(Martin Luther, Sermon On Galatians, 1532).

This position of separating the law from the Gospel is the foundation for all Protestant theology. This is what Luther discovered and thus it has correctly been made part of the early Protestant creeds because it was such an important point.

"We believe, teach, and confess that the distinction of the Law and of the Gospel, as a most excellently clear light, is to be retained with special diligence in the Church of God, in order that the Word of God, agreeably to the admonition of St. Paul, may be rightly divided. "

(The Formula of Concord, 1576.)

While most, including the SDA's, think that salvation is a long and complicated PROCESS that is predicated upon our behavior; it is not any such thing. Sanctification is not a part of the Gospel, nor is it salvific. The SDA's have made a major error to misunderstand this historical Protestant Point.

Listen again to Luther:

"Note, Paul everywhere teaches justification, not by works, but solely by faith; and not as a process, but instantaneous. The testament includes in itself everything --justification, salvation, the inheritance and great blessing. Through faith it is instantaneously enjoyed, not in part, but all. "
"Truly is it plain, then, that faith alone affords such blessings of God, justification and salvation- -immediately and not in process as must be the case with works--and constitute s us children and heirs who voluntarily discharge their duties, not presuming to become godly and worthy by a servile spirit."

"No merit is needed; faith secures all gratuitously--more than anyone can merit. The believer performs his works gratuitously, being already in possession of all the Cain-like saints vainly seek through works and never find--justification and divine inheritance, or grace…"
"Plainly, then, in the sight of God no one by works can accomplish anything toward his salvation.”

“Salvation must be obtained and enjoyed before works are begun. Having salvation, works will follow spontaneously, to the honor of God and to the benefit of our neighbor. They will not be in any wise prompted by fear of punishment or expectation of reward. This is implied in the words: "If a son, then an heir through Christ."

"If it makes us children, it makes us heirs; a child is an heir. When the inheritance is already possessed, can it be first secured through works? It is an inconsistent conclusion that the inheritance bequeathed through grace is already possessed, and at the same time is still to be sought and obtained first through works and merits, as if it were not present or not given."

"The inheritance is simply eternal salvation. We have frequently asserted that through baptism and faith the Christian instantaneously possesses all, but does not yet behold it visibly. He possesses it only in faith."

(A Sermon by Martin Luther; taken from his Church Postil of 1522.)

http://www.trinitylutheranms.org/Martin … 4_1_7.html
http://www.peacemakers.net/unity/mls6sac.htm

Here are some good articles about the Law & the Gospel. Hub, you need to read and understand this information.

What Is This "Law & Gospel" Thing?
http://www.modernreformation.org/defaul … &var3=main

An Introduction to the Law and the Gospel
http://www.modernreformation.org/defaul … &var3=main

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -SDA-s.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … enants.htm

Hub said: I might be glad to go onto your tithe thread, but I believe your point is well expressed in your last post.

Tom replied: I agree that there is no sense in having a discussion with those who refuse to be honest with the Word. This is not the way to find Gospel truth, only to waste time.

Hub said: The main reason that I see for Christians to speak against the tithe is because of their false economy, or worse, a desire to destroy the church.

Tom said: The main reason why anyone should speak against SDA tithe is to uplift the Gospel and remove the OC style hierarchy that has been established. Unless the SDA’s repent of their false OC ways, including tithe, the IJ, and the OC Sabbath, they are doomed.

The Advent Movement is self-destructing in error and corruption for all to see. There is so much false doctrine and dishonesty, that growth in North America is impossible. Few today are going to embrace the utter confusion and error of the SDA’s, and there is no reason for anyone to think otherwise.

The 3rd Angels Message has expired. The Advent Movement must repent and go forward to the 4th Angels Message.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 05-18-12 11:39 pm

Tom, you are too cocky about these matters:

1. We are to be cheerful givers. If one is convinced in his own heart that tithing is a good way of giving, who are you or I to judge him. The inner workings of the SDA church are not on his mind but he wants to be a cheerful giver. You condemn him. Who's wrong??

2. Santification is accomplished by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. It is a cooperative venture, without man's williingness to be indwelt with the Spirit, it would not be accomplished. Paul speaks of it as a race to be run, or a fight to be fought. Man must put conscious energy into the effort.

3. Drifting away - there are some Christians that believe when they were saved at their baptism they no longer have a struggle, no one can gainsay them.

Hebrews 2:1 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.

I think the way you talk of sanctification does not show a struggle day to day and a struggle not to turn away.

4. Bearing fruit - is this not sanctification. The bearing of fruit to the Christian happens when connected to the Holy Spirit/Jesus. It comes from internal empowerment, not by grunting.

5. When the New Covenant begins is at Christ's death. With out blood there is no remission of sin. The new covenant had to be ratified by His blood. He had to keep the OC law perfectly to be our Savior. By becoming our Savior he became our rest from struggling about our salvation. Justification is when you accept Christ's death for our sins, then the every day struggle is accomplished by the indwelling Holy Spirit, sent by Jesus. But, Tom you can not see anywhere where Christ is commanding a Sabbath to be kept. Could this be because He knows it is a shadow of Him?? Col 2:16-17 By hanging on to the Sabbath you are hanging on to the OC Law. Are their behavior standards in the New Covenant, YES, Christ's Law that Paul speaks of

1 Corinthians 9:21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

bshields · 05-19-12 9:33 am

bob_2 wrote:

Tom, you are too cocky about these matters:
1. We are to be cheerful givers. If one is convinced in his own heart that tithing is a good way of giving, who are you or I to judge him. The inner workings of the SDA church are not on his mind but he wants to be a cheerful giver. You condemn him. Who's wrong??

The problem lies with the church doctrine Bob. SDAs teach that it is the Christian's duty to pay the modified false tithe. This doctrine is a devious translation of the true Israelite tithing system. Those who propagate this false system of giving are bankrupting the poor. I believe it is a grievous sin that got its strength from the false prophet. The big problem is that many of the SDA doctrines are propagated by scare tactics and not out of love. If the SDAs really loved the Lord they would give out of that love. They wouldn't need the thousands of words ellen had to say concerning the subject.

tom_norris · 05-19-12 10:44 am

Bob, Bob, Bob, you are not being responsive to the points raised. Why is this?

Here the points you should have addressed:

1. Should the SDA’s be reformed? Or should the movement, such as it is, be destroyed?

2. And if so, what about Adventist Reform? It seems to be the only credible path for SDA’s? What other option makes sense?

3. Tithing is not a Gospel doctrine any more than ritual circumcision or the Levites.

4. NCT = false Gospel

5. NCT is based on the myth that Paul is the Lord of the Sabbath.

6. The TSDA’s, like Hub, will not admit any error, they refuse to repent. They can’t honestly discuss the issues; much less defend tithe, the IJ, or the OC Sabbath.

7. It is critical to understand the difference between law and Gospel. Neither the SDA’s nor the NCT crowd understands this point.

So Bob, you need to respond to the issues, not ignore them so you can promote NCT. Deal with the issues.

Bob, who supports the nonsense of NCT said: Tom, you are too cocky about these matters:

Tom replied: Those who understand the genuine Gospel are confident and compelled to teach it, - not cocky as the enemies of the Gospel assume. There is a difference.

1Cor. 9:16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel.

1Cor. 9:26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;

Bob said, in defense of tithe: 1. We are to be cheerful givers. If one is convinced in his own heart that tithing is a good way of giving, who are you or I to judge him. The inner workings of the SDA church are not on his mind but he wants to be a cheerful giver. You condemn him. Who's wrong??

Tom said: First, there is NO defense of tithe. Gospel doctrine is not based on how we feel or think. The Jews were “convinced” that Jesus must be killed. They thought he was a fraud. Do they get a pass? People are “convinced” of all manner of nonsense and evil, how does that make false doctrine true?

Tithe is an OC doctrine that was abolished in the NC. There is no basis to use this method of finance for the church in any form, or under any circumstances. If you understood the difference between the law and the Gospel, you would know this fact. While Christians are to be “cheerful givers” they are not to become “cheerful tithe payers.” There is a great difference.

Bob said: 2. Sanctification is accomplished by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. It is a cooperative venture, without man's willingness to be indwelt with the Spirit, it would not be accomplished. Paul speaks of it as a race to be run, or a fight to be fought. Man must put conscious energy into the effort.

Tom said: Sanctification is not salvific. Nor is it part of the Gospel. Such a separation of law and Gospel is fundamental for any Protestant. Too bad that most have long forgotten the genius of Luther, and thus few today have any idea how to define or understand the Gospel correctly. Least of all the SDA’s, and the former SDA’s such as yourself.

Bob said: 3. Drifting away - there are some Christians that believe when they were saved at their baptism they no longer have a struggle, no one can gainsay them. Hebrews 2:1 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. I think the way you talk of sanctification does not show a struggle day to day and a struggle not to turn away.

Tom said: Those who struggle with Sanctification, do not understand the Gospel correctly. They are most likely Judaiszers. Most people are in this category because they think their behavior is what saves them. The SDA’s are experts at blending the law and the Gospel, which is why they have a special Celestial Judgment to investigate our sanctification and works.

Bob said: 4. Bearing fruit - is this not sanctification. The bearing of fruit to the Christian happens when connected to the Holy Spirit/Jesus. It comes from internal empowerment, not by grunting.

Tom said: Those who understand the Gospel, will bear Gospel Fruit. However, those who misunderstand the Gospel produce worthless and rotten fruit. Which is what Jesus says about the entire Laodicean Church. He has rejected all their works!

Rev. 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

Bob said: 5. When the New Covenant begins is at Christ's death. With out blood there is no remission of sin. The new covenant had to be ratified by His blood.

Tom said: The repetition of error will not make false doctrine true. So you can stop promoting this myth that Jesus did not really preach the Gospel, and that he did not really forgive any sins before the cross.

The NT clearly shows that Christ did preach the Gospel before the cross and that he did forgive sin. Those who refute the Gospel record are enemies of Christ, pretenders promoting their own false views. There is no excuse for anyone taking such false positions. Shame on you.

Matt. 4:23 Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.

Matt. 9:35 Jesus was going through all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

Matt. 9:2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.”

Matt. 9:3 And some of the scribes said 1to themselves, “This fellow blasphemes.”

Matt. 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, “Why are you thinking evil in your hearts?

Matt. 9:5 “Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’?

Matt. 9:6 “But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” — then He *said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.”

Matt. 9:7 And he got up and went home.

Matt. 9:8 But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

Bob promotes more error and said: He had to keep the OC law perfectly to be our Savior.

Tom said: False. Jesus was often at odds with the OC. Even his birth was a violation of the OC rules, and so too his active and reformed working Sabbath. In fact, Christ broke the 4th commandment on a weekly basis, teaching others to also ignore the claims of the law. This is why he was sent to the cross. Where do you find these strange errors? The fact you were raised in the SDA cult has obviously affected your views and confused you about many things. Sad.

Bob said: By becoming our Savior he became our rest from struggling about our salvation.

Tom said: While Jesus Gospel teachings about salvation represent our spiritual rest, 7 days a week, this has nothing to do with the Sabbath, which was not a day of rest in the NC. Jesus never taught that he was the Sabbath rest for the church. He did not even teach that the NC Sabbath is for rest, which is yet one more error from the SDA’s. No doubt this is where you get so much of your confused views. There is no such thing as a resting Sabbath in the NC. (A fact that the SDA’s have yet to comprehend).

Bob said: Justification is when you accept Christ's death for our sins, then the every day struggle is accomplished by the indwelling Holy Spirit, sent by Jesus.

Tom said: Wrong. When it comes to salvation; Justification is imputed and so too sanctification. The SDA’s are very wrong about how they view sanctification, which they have blended with Justification. They have elevated sanctification to be equal with JBF, even claiming that there is a Celestial Judgment in heaven to see if we are “safe to save.” Such theology is RC in nature, not Protestant.

1Cor. 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

1Cor. 1:31 so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”

Bob said: But, Tom you cannot see anywhere where Christ is commanding a Sabbath to be kept. Could this be because He knows it is a shadow of Him?? Col 2:16-17 By hanging on to the Sabbath you are hanging on to the OC Law.

Tom said: The Gospels contain Jesus NC view of the Sabbath. Over and over he promotes and defends this radical view that enraged the Jewish leaders. It is very different from the OC Sabbath that must be “kept” by not working and resting.

Moreover, Christ never taught that he was fulfilling the Sabbath, and none of the Jews thought otherwise. In fact, they thought he was BREAKING the Sabbath, not fulfilling it. So you need to give up this myth that Jesus does not teach a NC Sabbath, as well as this myth that says he “fulfilled” it. These views are not, not, not, found in the NT.

Adventist Reform is the proper path for the self-destructing Advent Movement. By contrast, NCT is no path at all. It is false and trite theology that is not worthy of serious consideration. It is a path to nowhere; worthless doubletalk for those who cannot understand the Gospel or the teachings of Christ. Sad.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 05-19-12 3:01 pm

Tom, Tom , Tom!!!!

1.Reformed Sabbath - Tom there is no Reformed Sabbath taught by Jesus. You do not supply it, so, I will stay with my position. I know He does teach that He is our Rest:

Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

2. Collective Salvation?? - You say horrible things about the SDAs and their leaders. Show us proof you have been selected as Paul to say these things. Jesus gave Paul the gospel he was to preach and is nothing like you tout. No group will be saved collectively but individually, Romans 11. Note how Paul received the Gospel, directly from Christ, three years in Arabia God gave His Gospel to Paul. Don't denigrate Paul, but study what he presents as the Gospel. No Reformed Sabbath, Tom.

Gal 1:11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.
18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.

Acts 26:16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

A Reformed SDA is not necessary because we are saved individually. You are still an SDA as I am, but no church member should talk as you do in a potentially libelous manner. That is not the way Paul taught the Gospel. You would do well to dig into Paul's writings to see what Jesus showed Paul, "what you [Paul] have seen and will see of me [Jesus].

What is the "will see of me" all about, clarification or new doctrine?

bob_2 · 05-19-12 3:11 pm

bshields, as far as tithe,

1 Timothy 5:8 Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

bshields if a member is giving beyond his means, he must keep this verse in mind. I don't care if the SDA leadership teach tithe or not. I am just saying, that if a man/woman determine they are going to give 10 % of their income to the SDA church that is not a sin. What the SDA church may do with that, may be a sin.

bob_2 · 05-19-12 3:31 pm

Tom and bshields:

In Hebrew 10: 14, Strong's gives this definition of sanctified:

sanctified

1) to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow
2) to separate from profane things and dedicate to God
a) consecrate things to God
b) dedicate people to God
3) to purify
a) to cleanse externally
b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul

The Christian still has to live his life, with the Christian's effort. As I have shown elsewhere, Phil 2:12 "working out their own salvation." The Christian is not passive in this race to be run, this fight to be fought, but it is of no value without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, coaching as it were, which way to go.

bob_2 · 05-19-12 6:15 pm

Now, you need to get the Sabbath issue under the NC straight. You by preaching Gospel + Reformed Sabbath are preaching "another gospel". This I can't figure out. When you got into that vault of EGW did you not see that she declared the 4th Commandment the most important with her "halo" vision of the tablets of stone. Jesus spoke of the Sabbath under the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant. He is the True Rest under the NC. As far as which day you meet on, it doesn't matter. One person told me, they worship on Saturday, "because they want to show up when God does." How arrogant an answer is that, thumbing one's nose at the rest of Christianity, eh???Then there are those like you that say, "Copy Jesus example". Why don't you attend synagogue, why do you not keep all the appointed festivals listed in Lev 23 of which the Sabbath is one. You want to pick and choose which ceremonial or civic laws you want to keep.

Notice in John 5:

John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

He was telling them the intent of the 4th Commandment and under the OC had got the word "work" all mixed up. However, until His death He kept the Sabbath because He kept the Law perfectly, that required to be our Savior and to ratify the New Covenant. On Sunday, He resurrected into the New Covenant, He ushered it in. Yes He spoke of the New Covenant prophetically, but was not under the NC until He shed blood.

Tom, one other point, you talked about Jesus forgiving under the OC. Had he not lived a perfect life, died, resurrected and ascended to His father, no forgiveness would have been available even though Jesus promised such, He would have broken His promise to His Father.

When you, Tom, trash talk NCT. Only do it with one subject at a time, I will respond, but not to trash talk you have been doing. It demonstrate where your spirit is coming from.

Last edited by bob_2 (05-19-12 6:22 pm)

tom_norris · 05-24-12 3:43 pm

Bob said: Now, you need to get the Sabbath issue under the NC straight.

Tom said: I agree that the entire Laodicean Church needs to repent for their very public and telling errors about the Sabbath. The SDA’s should lead the way in the work of Sabbath Reform. They should be the first to understand the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

But sadly, they are blind to the Gospel and to the NC Sabbath, as well as many other doctrines.

Adventist Reform has the Sabbath correct, - at least so far. However, maybe someone will prove it wrong or correct it? We must always leave the door open for more truth, no matter how certain we may be of this or that point.

So criticism, examination, and discussion are welcome. But so far, no one has even come close to disproving what is so clearly recorded over and over in the Gospels.

This discussion is not a “he said/ she said” type of debate. If you deny that Jesus teaches a Gospel Sabbath for the church, and think Paul is the Lord of the Sabbath, and that Jesus did not really forgive sin before the cross…then you need to leave this thread.

You are out of bounds, disqualified to discuss what you so poorly understand. There are certain prerequisites necessary to understand the Gospel, and you are lacking these.

Bob said: You by preaching Gospel + Reformed Sabbath are preaching "another gospel".

Tom said: The Reformed Sabbath of Christ is a Gospel doctrine. It is part of the NC teachings of Christ, and the law of Christ.

While your charge would be true if I were promoting the OC Sabbath, like the SDA’s, but this is not what is taking place.

The NC Sabbath of Christ is an important part of Jesus Gospel teaching and preaching. So much so, that he declared himself to be the Lord of the Sabbath, a Sabbath that was made for all mankind. Not just for the Jews, but for the church and all mankind, just like the Gospel.

The NC Sabbath is very different from the OC Sabbath. Same day, but very different doctrine, which is why Jesus’ Gospel teaching caused so much trouble and division. And so it will today. Jesus Gospel Sabbath will condemn and shake up the religious establishment, - starting with the SDA’s.

The Reformed, working Sabbath was a large part of the Gospel teaching of Christ. This cannot be denied. The Gospels are full of Jesus controversial NC teaching about the 7th day Sabbath. And it is not what the SDA’s or NCT teaches, much less what the Sunday keepers teach. So why is everyone content to follow myths?

Bob said: This I can't figure out. When you got into that vault of EGW did you not see that she declared the 4th Commandment the most important with her "halo" vision of the tablets of stone. Jesus spoke of the Sabbath under the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant.

Tom replied: I went into the vault to understand and resolve the 1888 debate, which of course was ultimately about the Two Covenants and the Sabbath. Mission accomplished. Thank you.

However, I was not researching tithe or the Sabbath. But I have read much about both. And yes, the SDA’s were absolutely convinced that God was pushing them forward to the 7th day Sabbath. But even as they embraced the 7th day, they did so with errors attached, like those, which were corrected in the mid 1850’s. But guess what? They never fully developed a correct Sabbath doctrine, even to this very day.

Ellen White and the SDA’s were certain that the 7th day was the correct day, and that Sunday a fraud. But guess what? They were correct. At least partially. And they were correct at a time when the vast majority was firmly against their view.

The Sunday Sabbath was an almost irrefutable doctrine when the SDA’s embarked on Sabbath Reform. They have worked hard to uplift the 7th day as the Sabbath, and to some extent that have succeeded.

So the SDA’s are correct to teach that only the 7th day can be the NC Sabbath. They were also correct to claim Sunday a false doctrine.

God leads people one step at a time.

Regardless of the many errors of the SDA’s, there is some serious truth within Adventist theology. And the 7th day Sabbath is solid, but partial truth.

Too bad the SDA’s could not understand the Gospel in 1888, which would have forced them to repudiate their OC view of the Sabbath, - exchanging it for the active, NC Sabbath of Christ.

But we are here now. The past cannot be changed.

Today, Sabbath Reform has reached a new level and meaning that was not anticipated by the church leaders.

Let all be amazed and stunned at the active and reformed, 7th Day Gospel Sabbath of Christ. Who saw this doctrine coming? Not me.

Bob said: He is the True Rest under the NC. As far as which day you meet on, it doesn't matter.

Tom said: What you mean is that Jesus has replaced the weekly Sabbath with some spiritual doubletalk invented in the 1970’s.

But Jesus doesn’t even teach a resting Sabbath. Much less that it doesn’t matter “which day the church meets on.”

If the day of the Sabbath didn’t matter, why did Jesus not teach such a position? Why did he not declare that the Sabbath was going to be an everyday doctrine? Which would have meant that he would have been going to the synagogue on Wed or Monday, and then on Tuesday and Friday, - teaching the people this new way to view the Sabbath?

What you claim Jesus teaches about the Sabbath - is wrong. He teaches that the 7th day Sabbath matters so much, that he claimed to be its defender, Lord, and protector, even as he teaches it was made for all mankind. He does not teach that it has been changed to Sunday or to EveryDay. Nor does he teach that he “fulfilled” the Sabbath.

Jesus only teaches a working, 7th day Sabbath. He does not teach a resting Sabbath, only an active one, where none are guilty of sin for breaking the 4th commandment, - even though they are lawbreakers.

Bob said: One person told me, they worship on Saturday, "because they want to show up when God does."

Tom said: A Jew could say the same thing. This person was obviously not an apostle. So who cares what they say?

The reason for the 7th day, is because this is what Christ teaches in the Gospels. There is no such doctrine as the Sunday Sabbath or what NCT teaches.

Moreover, the 7th day also reflects the fact that the NC is 100% Jewish. This is an important truth that has been suppressed by the RCC. Sunday is not only a false doctrine, but a very anti-Semitic one as well.

Bob said: How arrogant an answer is that, thumbing one's nose at the rest of Christianity, eh???

Tom said: There is no such doctrine as the Sunday Sabbath, which is a very anti-Semitic and anti-Gospel error. Nor do the SDA’s have the right view of the NC Sabbath, even though they have the right day.

Bob said: Then there are those like you that say, "Copy Jesus example".

Tom said: Why is it wrong to follow the Gospel teachings of Christ? Those who follow Christ, must do so. Not just pretend.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Jesus has much to say about the Gospel Sabbath, I suggest that you listen to him.

Bob said: Why don't you attend synagogue, why do you not keep all the appointed festivals listed in Lev 23 of which the Sabbath is one. You want to pick and choose which ceremonial or civic laws you want to keep.

Tom replied: The change in the Covenants required the church to distinguish between the fulfilled OC rituals, and the Moral law that remained. Jesus and the apostles have made it clear what ceremonial laws the church is to follow, such as the Eucharist, Baptism, and the weekly, active, Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

There can be no ritual circumcision, tithe, or even a non-working/resting Sabbath. No hierarchy or separate priesthood, much less a male dominated one.

Bob said: Notice in John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Bob then said: He was telling them the intent of the 4th Commandment, and under the OC, they had got the word "work" all mixed up.

Tom said: Absurd! No one is misunderstanding what the word “work” means. Is this a joke?

The 4th Commandment requires the death penalty for working on the Sabbath. Do you think the Jews would put someone to death for misunderstanding what the word work means?

So the poor soul that was killed for gathering firewood on the 7th day was a mistake? He did not understand the rules? Moses misunderstood God? Come on, get serious.

Ex. 31:12 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying,

Ex. 31:13 “But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.

Ex. 31:14 ‘Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex. 31:15 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

Ex. 35:1 Then Moses assembled all the congregation of the sons of Israel, and said to them, “These are the things that the LORD has commanded you to do:

Ex. 35:2 “For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.
Ex. 35:3 “You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day.”

Let’s stop playing these games shall we? You mock God to claim that when he says no work, he means the opposite. No work, means NO work. Not even lighting a fire or gathering firewood. The record is clear:

Num. 15:32 Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day.

Num. 15:33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation;

Num. 15:34 and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him.

Num. 15:35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.”

Num. 15:36 So all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Do you really think that God, Moses, Aaron, and all the people “got the word "work" mixed up.” Really?

If so, you are a hopeless case, unable to comprehend the most simple and clear points from the Word of God. No wonder you cannot understand the Gospel Sabbath, you are not paying any attention to Bible. You force your views onto the passages, instead of allowing the Word to teach you the facts. Sad.

Bob said: However, until His death He kept the Sabbath because He kept the Law perfectly, that required to be our Savior and to ratify the New Covenant.

Tom said: Wrong again. The NT shows that Jesus broke the Sabbath and taught others to do so as well. This is why he was sent to the cross.

Jesus was an OC Sabbath breaker and so too should we all be. Christians are Gospel Priests of God, they can work on the Sabbath, exempted from the guilt of the law relating to the 4th Commandment. So the NC Sabbath is all about paying attention to Christ, not to the OC . (The SDA’s didn’t get the memo.)

Bob said: On Sunday, He resurrected into the New Covenant, He ushered it in.

Tom said: The NC was ushered in before the cross, even at the birth of Christ. Here is when the NC starts, with the birth of Christ. In fact, this is what the angels announced: “Good News,” which of course means Gospel. See v 10.

Luke 2:8 In the same region there were some shepherds staying out in the fields and keeping watch over their flock by night.

Luke 2:9 And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened.

Luke 2:10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;

Luke 2:11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Luke 2:12 “This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”

Luke 2:13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,

Luke 2:14 “Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.”

The angels sang at the birth of Christ because the Gospel had been launched on earth. Like the allies landing at Normandy, so too Christ made his beachhead landing in the Middle East. Launching the great Gospel campaign that would change the world.

Jesus does not represent the OC, only the NC. Moses is the hero of the OC, but Jesus the NC. Moses represents Law, Jesus the NC Gospel.

Bob said: Yes He spoke of the New Covenant prophetically, but was not under the NC until He shed blood.

Tom said: Jesus is a NC figure. Born under the OC, he repudiated and broke it often in order to create and teach the NC he represents. Even the way he was conceived was a violation of OC law. But so what? The NC trumps the OC. Thus Gospel is greater than law, even as the NC is far superior to the OC.

The Sabbath proves this observation about Gospel law breaking. Those who embrace the NC Sabbath of Christ, will break the OC Law of the 4th Commandment, just as he did. And yet, they will remain innocent and guiltless. Covered by the Righteousness of Christ, and saved eternally from the condemnation of the law.

Thus the true 7th day Sabbath, establishes the Moral Law, even as it repudiates legalsim, and even as it specifically repudiates the 4th commandment.

What was once a capitol punishment for a slight infraction on the 7th day, no longer condemns. Thus the true Gospel Sabbath is a celebration from the condemnation of the law. Because even though we are sinners, and Sabbath breakers, God views us as innocent. This is the Gospel.

Those who are trying to keep the OC Sabbath, have fallen from grace. They are trying to please God by law, not by faith in Christ, - who teaches all to break the 4th Commandment, holding their heads high, as if they are innocent.

The genuine Gospel Sabbath is a working metaphor of the Gospel, not the law. When you understand this point, you will hear the angels sing…and the Gospel we be ushered into your heart.

Bob said: Tom, one other point, you talked about Jesus forgiving under the OC. Had he not lived a perfect life, died, resurrected and ascended to His father, no forgiveness would have been available even though Jesus promised such, He would have broken His promise to His Father.

Tom said: You said Jesus could not, and did not, forgive sin before the cross. I showed you in the NT that he could and did forgive sin. The facts have not changed since that post. Jesus forgave the sins of many before he went to the cross.

Moreover, our view of what is sinful is very different from God’s view. For example, many think that Jesus had to obey the OC law perfectly. But God did not take this view and neither did Christ. The very birth of Jesus was against the OC, and so too many things Jesus did and taught, the most obvious being his reformed Sabbath, where he taught it was now ok to light fires on the 7th day, or gather sticks to make a fire, or move furniture, or do all manner of work that was officially forbidden under OC law.

The NC is superior to the OC, even as Christ and his Gospel are greater than Moses and the Law. The true Sabbath of Christ is a living doctrine that explains the Gospel every week. It shows that the Gospel is greater than the law, and so too the Word of Christ over the many false prophets that abound.

Bob said: When you, Tom, trash talk NCT. Only do it with one subject at a time, I will respond, but not to trash talk you have been doing. It demonstrates where your spirit is coming from.

Tom said: Sorry Bob. But NCT is trash. That is what the Spirit and the NT teaches about this nonsense. There is no other way to say it. It would be a joke if it were not for the fact that so many people have embraced this double-talk.

The SDA Sabbath is also very bad, so don’t feel like you are being picked on, but at least there was an OC Sabbath. There has never been anything like what NCT teaches about the Sabbath in either Covenant. NCT is just worthless fiction based on many false assumptions. So it is closer to the Sunday Sabbath than the SDA error, which is based on legalism and not fiction.

But the point is this; Why not embrace the true Sabbath and forget all these other errors? Why not rejoice, that at long last, the correct Gospel doctrine has emerged?

It is time for the OC minded SDA’s to repent and become NC Adventists. Updating and correcting their doctrines; improving their eschatology. It is also time for the critics to also repent for their own confusion and error. They too failed to find the Gospel Sabbath.

Matt. 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform

bshields · 08-09-12 10:57 am

bob_2 wrote:

bshields, as far as tithe,
1 Timothy 5:8 Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
bshields if a member is giving beyond his means, he must keep this verse in mind. I don't care if the SDA leadership teach tithe or not. I am just saying, that if a man/woman determine they are going to give 10 % of their income to the SDA church that is not a sin. What the SDA church may do with that, may be a sin.

The first "sin" is teaching that there is a Christian tithe and telling the flock they could lose their salvation if they don't pay it. ellen did just that.

tom_norris · 08-14-12 12:42 pm

Question for Tom Norris:

I am confused on whether I should stay a traditional or reformed SDA due to the following sites especially on Dr Des Ford doctrines

http://adventist-defense-league.blogspo … of-dr.html

http://biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.or … eology.htm

These to me really defend SDA doctrines

Please help shed some light on the errors of these if any is there

Thanks
Mthoko
--------------------------------------------------

Tom Norris Replied: Today, the SDA’s are very disoriented and confused about church history, eschatology, and the Gospel. They seem hopelessly divided, full of myths, half-truths, and much false doctrine. How can anyone honestly support such error?

Such a sorry state of affairs explains why millions have left the Adventist church over the past 30 years. And more still leave all the time. No Christian should support so much error and confusion.

The SDA leaders are not honest. They continue to pretend they have no false doctrine or error, and no reason to repent or embrace Gospel Reform. Although they are fractured and divided, some still think they have all the truth possible, and that everyone else is wrong. However, such an assumption is impossible and delusional.

These hierarchical minded leaders have proven themselves to be legalistic, hypercritical, and incompetent, which explains why the modern Advent Movement has imploded for all to see. The Advent Movement has run aground long ago, and yet, the leaders pretend all is well, even that they have charted a proper and correct course. But they are not telling the truth.

Not only are the present SDA doctrines legalistic, irrelevant, and false, so too is their entire hierarchical system of church organization. But those Pharisees don’t care; they have no plans to relinquish their power or control, much less repent for their many false doctrines, like tithe, that sustains them. So they refuse to acknowledge or embrace the need for Gospel reform.

Today, Traditional Adventism has morphed into Hierarchical, corporate Adventism. The Denomination is now a billion dollar religious machine that exists only to preserve and perpetuate itself, dishonestly profiting from its 19th century brand that others developed in truth and Gospel hope.

Unfortunately, the search for truth no longer matters for SDA’s; the object is all about money, even as the goal is to promote a religious Empire for the leaders to control and enjoy.

Adventism today is corrupt and useless. This idea that they speak for Jesus is absurd; they have no idea what he really teaches. Nor do they care to find out. Adventism today is all about money, politics, and cultic control. It has a huge bureaucracy with a very small membership base. It exists to give employment and retirement benefits to the thousands of workers that run this disintegrating, dishonest, religious empire.

Today, the SDA’s are no longer a religious “movement,” nor are they following the original fundamentals that define and empower Adventist theology. They are in a very dangerous place; having lost their prophetic bearings, which are the very pillars upon which they once stood.

Shame on the SDA’s for letting their leaders ruin the Advent Movement. They should have stood up and protested such poor mismanagement back in 1980, making the necessary changes to keep the leaders honest. But there was no resolution, only more propaganda, tighter control and schism.

The Gospel does not support anything that features the IJ, tithe, or Old Covenant Sabbath keeping. All should run away from such false and dishonest religion.

Let all beware the SDA’s! They don’t understand the Gospel or correct Adventist theology or history. Nor do they care about truth, as they once did. Pity.

I repeat, no one should support the many myths of modern Seventh-day Adventism, much less think that they accurately represent historic Adventism. The original version of the Three Angels Messages is almost unknown within the Adventist Community, and so too the genuine “pillars” that once defined the Advent Movement.

The only hope for the SDA’s is to repudiate what the White Estate has been teaching all these years and correct the record. This is where reform starts for SDA’s; with Ellen White and the White Estate.

The White Estate is a propaganda factory must be exposed for all to see. Then people will be able to understand that myths are not the same as facts. They will understand that most of what modern Seventh day Adventists were taught about Ellen White was not true or historically valid.

The SDA’s must repent for being so dishonest and return to the original fundamentals that define Protestant based Adventism. This is their only hope. No one should support them until they make a full confession and repent.

SDA’s Wrong About Doctrine:

Historic Adventism did not contain, feature, or support the IJ, tithe, or the OC Sabbath. NONE of these points were part of “historic Adventism” as the SDA’s have claimed all these years. This means that such errors can be removed without harming the genuine Three Angels Messages or the eschatological mission of the Advent Movement.

The IJ was NEVER the Judgment pillar in the 1st Angels Message (Rev 14: 6,7), as all modern SDA’s have been incorrectly taught. Thus its’ removal is the correction of error, not heresy as the leaders claim. The IJ was never where they said, nor was it what they said. The IJ is an error, not a fundamental pillar.

Such a stunning fact destroys Traditional Adventism and proves that the SDA leaders have been deceiving generations with their incorrect and impossible views of church history and doctrine.

There is no excuse for so much false history and non-stop propaganda from the leaders. They should be ashamed for what they have done, and they must be to some extent because they don’t want the community to know what they have done. They don’t want the world to know they have been publishing fiction about Ellen White all these years.

So the cover-up in the White Estate continues to this very day, even though they have been caught for all to see.

See Hidden Documents
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Estate.htm

Ellen White
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=225

Let all SDA’s understand, (both the ones that have left and are now critics, and the ones that remain in the church); -- they have been badly misled by their leaders. They have not been told the truth about Adventist history or what happened in 1844, 1888, or 1980. They have not been told the truth about Ellen White and her views, and in fact have been misled into believing many myths and half-truths.

During the 20th century, the SDA leaders ran the church like a cult. That is, they manipulated and controlled both the data and the agenda for their own pleasure. There was no search for truth, but rather, a handful of men determined every point of faith and doctrine and imposed their views on all. Any that protested were slandered, shunned, and exiled.

Thus the modern SDA’s were more about propaganda and mind control than many understood. The White Estate especially, became nothing more than a propaganda tool for the hierarchy. Whatever they wanted the members to think or do, they would create an Ellen White book for motivation and guidance.

Consequently, Ellen White’s writings became a pawn for the leaders to dishonestly manipulate and control as they thought best. Ellen White was reduced to playing the role of a puppet by those leaders who were all too willing to pull the strings and make her say what they wanted to hear.

The SDA leaders have been very busy over the years hiding documents and manipulating church history for their own ends. As part of this fraud, they changed the historic fundamentals that define the Advent Movement. They suppressed, misrepresented, and repudiated Ellen White in the process, even as they claimed they were carefully following her views.

THIS is why the SDA’s are self-destructing. It is their own fault. Their leaders have betrayed the Pioneers and repudiated the fundamentals of the Advent Movement. They have misunderstood the Gospel and historic Adventism.

Let all SDA’s repent for their many errors of doctrine. Why? So that they can go forward and complete their noble mission to prepare the last church for the great Tribulation and the 2nd Coming of Christ, which is the great Judgment Day of the world.

The 3rd Angels Message has terminated in failure, just like every previous Adventist “message.” This means it is time for the Advent Movement to once again move forward, this time to the 4th and last eschatological message.

Today, no one should support Traditional / Hierarchal Adventism. No one should pay tithe or think it sinful to work on the Sabbath. Rather, all should embrace the New Covenant teachings of Christ, and become Gospel believing Adventists, taking care to understand what is true and fundamental and what is not.

New Covenant Adventism
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=969

Do not misunderstand; there is much truth in the Advent Movement. It would be a great mistake to think otherwise. But the present leadership cannot be trusted to figure out what is truth and what is error. They don’t know the difference; they have gone corrupt just like the 1st century Jews.

Adventist Reform:

After the trial of Dr. Ford at Glacier View in 1980, it became obvious that the leaders were not going to be honest about Ellen White or church history, much less with the Gospel.

Consequently, legions left the church, and many still leave today, making it impossible for Adventism to grow in North America. But even so, the leaders still pretend they made no error at Glacier View, claiming that there is no reason for Adventists to either repent or embrace Gospel Reform.

Such delusional arrogance is an insult to the Gospel, as well as to thinking people everywhere.

With billions of dollars at their disposal, the SDA’s continue to promote non-stop propaganda and confusion through any number of publications, web sites and various media outlets. In fact, they have created a media empire in order to indoctrinate and control the unsuspecting and naïve. But even so, they still cannot grow. They have too many unhappy former members who are on a mission to warn people away from the many errors of Adventism.

If anyone tries to speak out within Adventism, or make corrections, they are quickly ostracized, slandered, and attacked, which is what happened to Dr. Ford in 1980. The church leaders do not allow free speech, much less criticism or serious debate. This is the hallmark of a cult. They are fearful of open, public discussion about the issues because they stand on the wrong side of most everything.

This is why the SDA’s flat out refuse to discuss tithe or the IJ, much less enter into any public discussions about Ellen White, church history, or Adventist Reform. They know they can no longer make a credible defense of their false views, so they avoid such discussion, shutting down web sites instead of dealing with the issues in an honest and forthright manner.

Site History
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=224

Enough of all this double-talk and false doctrine. The Advent Movement deserves better. In fact, the Advent Movement needs to move away from the failed and terminated 3rd Angels Message and go forward to the 4th Angels Message, (Rev 18). THIS is where the Advent Movement must migrate. THIS was the progressive goal of the Three Angels Messages in the first place. But few understand this normative progression of Adventist eschatology.

It is only under the 4th Angels Message that the time of trouble and the 2nd Coming takes place. Only during this last message will the Gospel become clear and correct, and so too the Sabbath, and all else.

Today, there is a credible path for all former and present SDA’s. It is called Adventist Reform.

AR represents a New Covenant view of Adventism that remains true to the fundamental pillars of the Three Angels Messages. It features cutting edge Gospel eschatology, even as it preserves what is fundamental and true within Protestant based Adventism.

AR corrects the many mistakes of the SDA’s; resolving the long running debates about Ellen White, the Sabbath, and the Pre-Advent Judgment. It also eliminates tithe and a hierarchical based organizational system, as well as many other errors that are destroying Adventism.

In short, Adventist Reform represents a much-needed Gospel correction that will get the Adventist Community back on the proper eschatological path.

Here are some links that further explain and discuss Adventist Reform. Here is “Present Truth” for modern Adventism.

Adventist Reform Menu of Discussions
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=11

Adventist Reform-
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=234

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for All Experts.com & Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 08-14-12 12:45 pm

Mthoko replied; Thanks, must find reformed church in Durban South Africa.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … reform.htm

tom_norris · 10-08-12 11:32 am

Question for Tom Norris:

Hi Tom

I already asked Patricia Allen this question and had a good response; just interested on your answer.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … entals.htm

This may require a lengthy answer. The question is; Are there any errors in the 28 Fundamental Beliefs, if so please give scriptural reasons.

Thanks in Advance
Mthoko, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer:

The 27 Fundamentals and the Errors of Adventism

The “27” Fundamentals, which have now been increased to “28, are full of error and false doctrine. Any church that teaches OC tithe paying, #21, is a Judaizing cult, and so too any that promote the OC Sabbath, #20, as the SDA’s do.

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

The SDA’s also embrace major hermeneutical error, #18, by claiming that Ellen White has doctrinal authority, even as they teach a false Judgment called the Investigative Judgment, #24, which supposedly examines the believers Sanctification, in heaven, to see if they are good enough to be saved.

The promotion of character perfection and Jewish food laws, #22, is also wrong and so too their view of the Moral law, #19. This claim that “obedience to the law” produces a sense of “well being” and is “evidence of our love to God and man” is legalistic and wrong. Christians are saved by faith in Christ, not law keeping.

The SDA’s don’t even know how to practice the Lord’s Supper correctly, #’s16, 22, because they think wine is sinful to drink. So they make up their own doctrines about many things, which is the hallmark of a cult. And they refuse to repent, which is also a fundamental point of a cult.

The SDA’s also have the same basic organizational system, as well as the same legalistic view of salvation as the Roman Catholic Church, which all Protestants view as a cult, # 12. Thus the SDA’s are a cult following a cult, all of which is against the Gospel and the fundamentals of the Protestant Faith.

The SDA’s are great hypocrites and double-talkers. While they claim in # 14 that the church is “one body” where “all are equal,” this is not true for them. Women are not equal to men in the SDA church, another point of theology also embraced by the Roman Catholic Church.

There is very little truth in the SDA church today. They don’t even promote, much less understand, how the 2nd Coming will take place, #’s 13, 25. This used to be their greatest doctrine, now it is almost lost. The SDA’s have no credible eschatology, nor do they even promote the end of the world.

Today, the SDA’s are blind to the Gospel and self-destructing for all to see. They need to repent while they still have the chance and return to the fundamentals of the Protestant and Advent Faith.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for All Experts.com & Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 10-28-12 12:37 pm

Question for Tom Norris:

Mr. Norris,

I was born and raised in the SDA church but since my teen years, I have drifted apart. I am 36 years old, remarried and trying to raise two boys, 13 and 7.

I started looking for a Church to attend and in that search started wondering what day we should go or does that even matter.

It seems through my studies that a lot of people have left the SDA church due to conflicts with EGW teachings, SDA doctrines and the fact that the Gospel says Jesus fulfilled the law and therefore we rest in him leading me to believe the day doesn’t matter as much.

I’ve read some of your blogs and articles and would love to get your opinion on this.

Regards
Zack Johns
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer:

Today, Adventism is in a great crisis. Millions have “drifted” and run away from the SDA’s over the past 30 years, and this ongoing process is still taking place today. People primarily leave because they correctly reject legalism and the Investigative Judgment, as well as how Ellen White is used, and other errors.

So your story is very common. You are part of the legions of former SDA’s who remain outside of the organized church. I too, am part of this disappointed crowd that wishes for something better.

At this point, the SDA’s deserve to be condemned, not supported. So I cannot recommend that anyone join their cultic confusion or embrace their false view of the Sabbath and church organization. Such errors will cause more harm than good. See links:

Why So Many Leave
http://www.nonsda.org/sda_losing_members.shtml

Leaving the SDA Church
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=233

Former SDA Group
http://www.formeradventist.com/stories/index.html

More Members Leaving -UTube
http://www.rejoicetube.com/media/4372/F … stimonies/

More Members Leaving & Why
http://www.sabbatismos.com/

People need religion in their lives. Not only because of our mortality, but because children need moral guidance, even as everyone needs hope and peace of mind. So the quest for religion is strong in the human soul, even in our modern age.

However, the problem is this: religion has become big business, including the Adventist Denomination, which is worth about $30 Billion. And that is small when compared to many others like the Mormons.

Today, religion is primarily about money, myth, and entertainment. The search for Gospel truth and salvation is not taking place. This is especially true in America, where all have the freedom to follow their own views, regardless how strange, false, or absurd. Thus there is a wide choice of religious views available, most all of them worthless.

Is there a true church today? Or is it all a lot of worthless noise based on greed, conceit, and false doctrine? Does doctrine even matter today?

Eternal Life will only be obtained by closely following the Gospel teachings of Jesus. So, yes, doctrine is very important to our salvation, and thus the Sabbath is also important to understand properly. If fact, to understand the Gospel correctly, is to understand the Gospel Sabbath, even as a false Sabbath underscores a false view of the Gospel.

Today, the church, meaning all denominations, is full of double-talk and error. Not one church teaches the correct doctrine of the New Covenant Sabbath. This was prophesied long ago:

2Tim. 3:1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.

2Tim. 3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,

2Tim. 3:3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,

2Tim. 3:4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

2Tim. 3:5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

How can one find the genuine Gospel, and thus the correct Sabbath, in such a competitive, dishonest environment? How can anyone one find truth today?

Answer: John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Thank heaven we can all find truth without having to join a denomination. Each of us can go directly to the Word and find the Gospel. There, in the NT, we can meet the genuine Christ and find Eternal Life, without having to pay tithe to a corrupt bureaucracy or be forced to follow a chain of false doctrine.

When the Word is treated correctly, the question will be not be: “What is the correct Sabbath?” But “what does Christ teach about the Sabbath?”

It is the teaching of Christ, in the Gospels, that defines and explains the Gospel as well as the Sabbath. Here is where all must go to find truth and salvation.

Moreover, those who embrace the Gospel through the Word are part of the church, priests of God, individually answering directly to Christ, their high priest. They do not need to be “members” on anyone’s earthly books because their names are written in the lamb’s book of Life.

1Cor. 12:27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.

Phil. 4:3 Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

Rev. 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

No True Denomination

First off, there is no true or correct church today, least of all the SDA’s. They are full of false doctrine, myth, and great arrogance. Even their greatest doctrine, the Sabbath, is wrong, and so too their view of the Judgment and even the Lord’s Supper. So while there is great doctrinal truth in the Advent Movement, there is more error than truth at present.

This sad state of affairs is what the real doctrine of the Pre-Advent Judgment addresses in Rev 3: 14. Today, every denomination is called to repent of their false doctrine, even as Christ has judged them all blind and lost. Which explains why no church today correctly understands the New Covenant Sabbath of Christ, -including the SDA’s.

Rev. 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.

Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

While the Adventists are correct to teach that Sunday is a fraud, and that the 7th day is the only day for the weekly NC Sabbath, they still do not have the right understanding about the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath, or even eschatology.

The SDA Community must realize that there is more to the doctrine of the Sabbath than just the day. Even the Jews that killed Christ had the correct day, so this is not enough.

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

Jesus, our Sabbath Rest

As for this new Sabbath theory, (since the 1970’s), strangely called New Covenant Theology, --it is absurd. This idea that Jesus “fulfilled” the Sabbath, so that he could remove it, and then turn it into an “Everyday” spiritual rest- for those that meet on Sunday, is not supported by the NT. In fact, Jesus never claimed to be anyone’s Sabbath rest, nor did he teach a “resting,” non working Sabbath.

The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

While many former SDA’s embraced this alternative double-talk, it is not the answer to the error of the SDA Sabbath, much less for the Sunday Lord’s Day. So the search for the genuine Sabbath must still go on for most all. But the answers are now in the public domain for all to see. Gospel Truth is once again on the move.

NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953

Like I said, when the Gospel is fully understood, so too the Gospel Sabbath of Christ, - the head theologian of the church. At some point, the Spirit will bring together those who are serious about Gospel Truth, and a new denomination will be launched, even a new, modern, reformation.

At some point, the NT teachings of Jesus will become better understood, including what he teaches about the New Covenant, 7th day Sabbath. Then the repentant church will go forward as shown in Rev 18. This has not taken place as yet. But it is getting closer.

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

Let all pray for Gospel Reform within the Adventist Community and the entire church. Let all seek Gospel truth directly from the Word, standing firm against all error and false doctrine.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for All Experts.com & Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 11-03-12 1:51 pm

Tom - thanks for the response. Unfortunately, most of this info I already had. I do appreciate the time you spent answering my question but I am still in search of a church to take my family to.

I have started to look into non-denominational churches but most of them worship on Sunday. If you have any thoughts on non-denominational churches I would be interested to hear.

Also, was wondering if you have ever heard of one-flock ministries?

http://www.oneflockministries.org/ourst … iends.html

Pastor Greg was a long time SDA that now Pastors a non-denominational church in PA. In his letter to his family and friends he explains how he came to the Jesus Fulfillment theory in his Biblical journey. Was wondering your thoughts on it?

Thanks,
Zack
----------------------------------------------------------------

Tom Norris Answers:

Zack, I suggest that you research the local community churches in your area. No doubt they are all going to be Sunday based, as the doctrine of the New Covenant, 7th day Sabbath is still virtually unknown. So your options are limited in that regard.

However, if Pastor Greg were in your area, I would not hesitate to recommend his church to your family, regardless of the fact that they meet on Sunday.

I went to the website and read his very moving story. It is one that I have heard many, many times. He seems like a genuine Christian, someone who is serious about the search for Gospel truth. He also has a healthy respect for the Advent Movement, even recommending that it be reformed. So he has a good Gospel attitude.

http://www.oneflockministries.org/ourst … iends.html

Here are some of his comments and my response to them:

Pastor Greg: Our primary reason for becoming Adventist years ago was our deep desire to serve the Lord. Both Paula and I joined this church, (myself by re-baptism in my college days), and became SDAs because we believed it was the denomination that most closely followed God’s word.

Tom Norris: This is a good reason to join any church. To follow the Word has been the Protestant cry since the days of the Reformation. Adventism was a Protestant paradigm from the start. They discovered modern eschatology by studying the Word and correcting the prevailing 19th century myths about the 2nd Coming.

Today, thanks to Adventism, every church and denomination embraces a literal, pre-millennial, 2nd Advent. The Adventists discovered this basic eschatological platform that everyone correctly follows today. However, few, if any, show appreciation to the Adventists.

More than that, the Adventists developed a very sophisticated view of eschatology, one which has been passed down through the SDA’s. But the SDA’s misunderstood the Gospel and the law, as well as the cutting edge theology of the Advent Pioneers. This explains why the Advent Movement is floundering. They have lost sight of the fundamentals.

Pastor Greg: We saw in Adventism a group of people who were not afraid to follow their convictions even if they were not popular positions to take in our culture.

Tom Norris: The Adventists were very sincere at one time. However, the Gospel is not a popularity contest. Conviction and sincerity are not proof of truth. Many confused cults, like the Mormons, have strong convictions that their brand of religion is true, but such views do not make false doctrine true. We all know that.

In addition, what may seem important at one point in history, is not so within another context. For example, when the SDA’s were fighting to promote the 7th day Sabbath, they did so in the face of great opposition from the Sunday forces who were trying to pass a National Sunday law.

Such a struggle validated their views and increased their sincerity, but in the end, they were wrong about many things, including that Sunday will start the Tribulation. So much for being sincere.

Today, there is no such war over which day is the Sabbath. There are no fears of blue laws or persecution. Thus the doctrine of the Sabbath needs to be examined in the context of what Jesus teaches. Not in the context of 19th century conflicts and errors.

Those who are really sincere will examine the evidence honestly and objectively, admitting when they are wrong. The SDA’s today are very much like the 1st century Jews, who were also neither honest nor sincere.

Pastor Greg: We became part of the church primarily because we believed Sabbath observance was required and was honoring to God.

Tom Norris: Both the Protestant and Catholic Church promote the Sunday Sabbath as our moral duty. The RC’s teach that the Sunday lord’s day is the New Covenant Sabbath.

The Pilgrims came to America so that they could properly observe a very strict Sunday Sabbath, and thus strict Sabbath keeping took hold in the new world, eventually growing into a national ecumenical campaign of Sunday sacredness, to which the SDA’s protested.

The church, meaning all denominations, Catholic and Protestant, have always met on a weekly basis, and they still do. So the Sabbath doctrine cannot be separated from Christian religion or practice. It has always been part of Judaism and the church, and so it shall ever be.

The SDA’s came along and took issue with the DAY, even as they also viewed this doctrine in an eschatological manner, which had not been done before. Because the Bible clearly teaches a 7th day Sabbath, the SDA’s were able to build a denomination on this primary point.

However, because the SDA’s misunderstood the law and the Gospel, they also misunderstood the genuine 7th day Sabbath. While they were correct that Sunday is a fraud, they were incorrect to teach that the Old Covenant doctrine of the 7th day is part of New Covenant doctrine. The OC Sabbath cannot be part of the NC. It was abolished.

The 7th day Sabbath of Christ

Jesus refutes the OC Sabbath, which is why the Jews became so upset with him. He does not teach a resting, non-working doctrine of the 7th day, as the SDA’s claim. Rather, he teaches the opposite: an active, working, 7th day Sabbath, one that is not subject to the law of the 4th commandment. Here is the true doctrine of the NC Sabbath. The SDA’s were only partially correct.

There is a 7th day Gospel Sabbath for the church, and the SDA’s came close to getting it right, at least as far as the Day is concerned. Now it is time to complete Sabbath Reform and fully understand the Gospel Sabbath and the last day events.

Adventism must advance to complete its’ mission to prepare the church for the 2nd Coming.

Pastor Greg: We were also attracted to the healthful lifestyle. We believed that Adventism had much to offer the world. We still believe much of what the church teaches.

Tom Norris: It is true that the SDA’s developed an excellent understanding of Health. However, they no longer understand or follow these views. Nor was Jesus a vegetarian. So here is another point where the modern Adventists have failed.

Moreover, the NT clearly teaches that food is not sinful. It is wrong for the SDA’s to teach that there are unclean foods in the New Covenant. There is no such thing.

Mark 7:17 When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable.

Mark 7:18 And He said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,

Mark 7:19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and 1is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

Pastor Greg: While Paula and I do not believe the Adventist position, that the Sabbath is morally binding, is biblical, we do believe that it is a healthy way to live and has merit for spiritual growth. This error needs to be corrected.

Tom Norris: The SDA’s have embraced the OC view of the Sabbath, which is not binding on any Christian. Nor is it healthy for spiritual growth. What they should have done was embrace the Gospel Sabbath of Christ, which is an active Sabbath, not a resting one. It is Jesus’ view of the 7th day Sabbath that is binding on all Christians, not what Moses or the SDA’s teach.

Pastor Greg: We value and support the concept of Sabbath rest. We enjoy the spiritual benefits of taking a day that is dedicated to God and family. We love taking a media fast for a day and letting the noise and clamor cease. This is a part of our spiritual lives that we hold dear and will always treasure.

Tom Norris: It is the OC Sabbath that supports rest, quiet, and inactivity, not the NC Sabbath of Christ. The SDA view of the Sabbath is OC; it follows the Puritan version, which is also WRONG, regardless of the day. The Gospel Sabbath does not include all these OC rules about not working (or watching TV or going to a restaurant, etc.), on the 7th day. There are no such regulations on the genuine Sabbath of Christ.

I realize this is a shocking and very confusing view. But this is the view of Christ. He stunned and divided the Jews with his Reformed view of the Gospel Sabbath. It was shocking way back then, and it is still shocking today. Why? Because so few understand the genuine Gospel of Christ, while many more understand law, law, and law.

Pastor Greg: But to insist that it (Sabbath) always be on Saturday, or that it is mandated by scripture, is adding to the Word of God an unnecessary requirement for new believers. It constitutes a stumbling block that is not necessary. It gets in the way of many coming to Jesus. We believe that we should remove all obstacles from the path of the true seeker except the scandal of the cross. This is the heart of the message of Galatians and the rest of the New Testament…

Tom Norris: There is only one NC Sabbath for the church, and it is only on the 7th day. Not Sunday, Tuesday, Friday, or Everyday.

Moreover, there are no “stumbling blocks” with the Gospel Sabbath because there are no rules against doing any kind of good works on the Sabbath of Christ. The Moral law of the 4th Commandment does not apply to the New Covenant Sabbath, which is the opposite of what the Jews and the SDA’s teach.

The NC Sabbath contains an “exemption” from the Law, protecting all Christians who work on the 7th day from the guilt or sin of Sabbath breaking. Thus, the Sabbath of Christ is a living metaphor about the Gospel because we are declared innocent, even though we are in fact lawbreakers.

The OC, 7th day Sabbath is not to be followed by any Christian. The 4th Commandment has been trumped by the Gospel teachings of Christ, which include his NC, reformed doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.

Pastor Greg: Paula and I have a deep love and concern for the Adventist church. We have not been hurt or mistreated. We do not hold animosity toward anyone in the church. The denomination has been very good to us. We do not have any horror stories of mistreatment by leadership as some have. We are grateful for Adventism and what it has meant to our family and our growth in the Lord.

Tom Norris: Most people leave the SDA church because of doctrine. While the leaders often deny this fact, it is true. Those that have left were correct to do so, as the SDA’s have not been honest with the Gospel, much less church history. I salute those who leave. It would have been much easier for Pastor Greg to follow the SDA crowd and enjoy the financial benefits. Many SDA pastors have done this, even though they knowingly support many false doctrines in exchange.

Pastor Greg: I was amazed to discover that the New Testament does not teach Sabbath the way I thought it did.

Tom Norris: It is amazing that everyone, in all denominations, have been taught a false doctrine of the Sabbath. Regardless if one is a Sunday keeper or SDA, they all have an incorrect view of the Sabbath. This fact also applies to this new spin about Christ fulfilling the Sabbath so that he could remove it.

Today, the Gospel Sabbath of Christ is badly misunderstood, because the Gospel is so misunderstood. Only when the New Covenant is properly comprehended, so too the NC Sabbath.

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

Pastor Greg: I learned from Colossians 2:16-17, Galatians 4:10, Romans 14:5-6, and Hebrews 3-4, that Sabbath was an institution that pointed forward to Jesus and therefore was no longer binding on Christians.

Tom Norris: Like so many SDA’s, Pastor Greg went from one false view of the Sabbath to another. But at least this new view of the Sabbath does not promote legalism and the IJ. However it does feature very poor hermeneutics, as well as myth and error.

While the NT does not support the SDA Sabbath, it also does not support the confused views of the Sunday keepers or the Everyday Sabbath crowd, with their “fulfilled” Sabbath. For starters, the doctrine of the Sabbath was not something that was to be fulfilled; it pointed back to the creation of the world. This is how Christ always viewed the Sabbath. The Bible does not teach that the Sabbath pointed to Christ, or that he was to fulfill the Sabbath.

While Jesus did make it clear that the OC, non-working Sabbath was “no longer binding” on Christians, he also articulated the NC doctrine of the Sabbath, which is binding. It was so radical that it led directly to his death. It is this NC Sabbath of Christ, in all four Gospels, that must be recaptured and understood by the last church. And it is only on the 7th day. So the SDA’s have helped move truth forward, even if they have fallen into a ditch in the process.

See:

NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953

The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242

Pastor Greg: The New Testament points to a Person (Jesus) as the true Sabbath, not a day. I discovered that The Law is reinterpreted, in Christ, for all believers.

Tom Norris: Jesus never claimed to be anyone’s “Sabbath rest.” In fact, he never said or taught any such thing. Jesus acknowledged, defended, and reformed the Sabbath, but he never taught that he was its’ fulfillment. Jesus is not a day any more than the Sabbath is about a person. Jesus was not Lord of himself, or Lord of the fulfilled Sabbath. He was Lord of the NC 7th day Sabbath, which he reformed in all four Gospels.

While Jesus gives salvation and spiritual rest to those who ask, this is not associated with any day in the Gospels, much less the 7th. In fact, Jesus rarely uses the word “rest” in any context, as a word study of the Gospels will prove.

So how can a concept, never uttered by Christ, become new doctrine for the church today?

Jesus never claimed to be the true Sabbath or any Sabbath, much less our “rest.” This is just trite myth, easily exposed as such by studying the Gospels.

Moreover, when Jesus was alive on earth, he never rested on the Sabbath, nor did he refrain from work or tell anyone else to stop working on the 7th day. Thus the Gospel facts disprove this popular idea that Jesus is our Sabbath rest. It may sound nice, but it is not true. Jesus is not a like any day, nor does he promote a resting, passive, Sabbath.

Pastor Greg: The New Testament makes very clear which portions of The Law have carried over in Christ and which have not.

Tom Norris: Jesus did not teach lawlessness, even as Paul teaches that love in the fulfillment of the law. In fact, the class of Christians that are banished from Heaven at the Judgment, are precisely those who deny the moral law.

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Christians are not under the Moral, this is a clear NT teaching. However, this does not mean the Moral law has been abolished, or that the Sabbath is no longer a memorial to the creation of the world, or that we can now murder, steal, and lie, etc.

The Christian is to be under the law (teachings) of Christ, at all times, which is superior to the Moral law. In fact, Jesus teaches all 10 Commandments, and thus we are “under” his teachings about the Law in every part of our lives, including the NC Sabbath, which he reforms by subordinating the 4th commandment to his authority as Lord of the Sabbath.

Listen to Paul explain the relationship between the law of Christ and the Moral law. Note he is not in a lawless state, nor under the Moral Law.

1Cor. 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.

1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

The 7th day Gospel Sabbath is predicated upon the law of Christ and the Words of Christ. It is not the same as the “schoolmaster” or “tutor” Sabbath of Moses, which is why the Jews became so angry with Christ.

Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal. 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Jesus Sabbath teaching directly contradicts and overrides the 4th commandment, showing the power and authority of Christ, the co-creator of the world and inventor of the original Sabbath. The church is to follow the active, 7th day Sabbath of Christ, a doctrine that is virtually unknown today.

Pastor Greg: Finally, I found that the day of worship is NOT the final test of loyalty to God, rather the test is a full surrender to Jesus Christ sealed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Tom Norris: The SDA’s are wrong to teach that the Tribulation will start because of a National Sunday law. While it made sense to the Battle Creek SDA’s in the 19th century, --and there were attempts to pass such a law in Congress (in 1888), the law failed and so too did this major ecumenical push for Sunday laws. Regardless, the NT does not teach any such thing. This point is flat our wrong.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ay-Law.htm

However, there will be a great Tribulation followed by persecution, just like in the early church. So what is the final test at the end of the world?

Answer: to follow the genuine Christ, and not the many counterfeits. One way to know the original Christ at the end of time is by his controversial reformed, 7th day Sabbath, a doctrine that is unknown to Laodicea at this point in time.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

Matt. 24:24 “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Those who believe Christ and his Word will also embrace his NEW COVENANT view of the Sabbath, which he claims was given to him from God the Father.

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Pastor Greg: Virtually all of our maturing process as Christians has taken place within the Adventist church. We have been blessed deeply by our association with the church. But God is calling us to keep moving. I believe that is His intention for the Adventist church as well. There truly was merit in what the Adventist pioneers believed. They were adamant about not becoming another denomination but insisted in calling themselves a movement. By this they were indicating that if they discovered more truth, they would follow it and leave the mistakes behind.

Tom Norris: The Advent Movement is supposed to go forward from one level to the next higher level, embracing more truth in the process. It has now gone through three levels, the last being known as the Third Angels Message, which they went through TWICE. Both have terminated in disaster and schism. Today, we are witnessing the end of the modern 3rd Angels Message, which has crashed and burned for all to see.

The SDA’s stopped searching for truth in 1980. This is when the “movement” died and pluralism became the new normal. This is when a false, IJ based Creed was forced on all Adventists. Those who understood the Gospel the most, like Dr. Ford, were exiled from the church for daring to tell the truth, and thus the floodgates of schism were opened. Leaving those that remained in the church to support great error and confusion.

The SDA’s must repent for rejecting the Gospel at Glacier View. They must confess their errors about the IJ and Ellen White or they are doomed. They must also repent for the fact that thy do not have the 7th day Sabbath fully correct.

Repentance is the only way for the Advent Movement to go forward to the next level, which is known as the 4th Angels Message. Here is where every former SDA Pastor should lead his flock. This final Advent Message is not only Gospel based and eschatologically credible, it is the point and purpose of the Three Angels Messages.

It is time for Adventism to move forward once again and warn the world of Judgment and calamity to come. It is time for the final Reformation of the church to begin, just before the great Tribulation strikes the earth.

Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

Pastor Greg: The Adventist church has much to offer. If it would keep moving, I believe it could have a tremendous impact on the world as a part of God’s remnant church at large. But in a very real sense, Adventism must face it’s dark side. It must keep moving and allow God to mold and make it into what He intends it to be.

Tom Norris: Adventism is full of eschatological insight and light. In fact, the Three Angels Messages is still the most sophisticated and cutting edge theology available. The fact that the SDA’s have misunderstood their Fundamental pillars and have gone corrupt is beside the point. The Adventist Apocalyptic, when correctly understood, is the proper path for the Laodicean Church.

As for the dark side of doctrinal error; both Judaism and the Apostolic church had a “dark side.” The Jews rebelled against God and then also rejected the Gospel. They were destroyed as a result and the Gospel given to the Gentiles.

The apostolic church also had a dark side. It became divided over the Law and the Gospel, eventually embracing a false version of religion, which became the RCC. The church went dark for a long time, needing a Gospel Reformation to wake it up.

So the fact that the SDA’s have gone bad is normative. All religion goes bad. The “dark side” is part of the human predicament. But so too is Gospel Reformation. The latter is needed now. Past error is no excuse for present wrong.

Let all understand that the Advent Movement, which is defined by the term Three Angels Messages, can go forward without the SDA’s or their organization. The SDA’s did not start or develop the first two Angels Messages; they only added the 3rd Angels Message. They do not have to go forward to the final phase, and their leaders have made it clear that they do not want to go forward to the final Gospel based message of Rev 18.

So be it. While it would be better for them to repent and embrace Gospel Reform, the will of God will be done regardless. Others will step forward to complete the mission of the Advent Movement, pushing it forward to the 4th Angels Message; preparing the church for what is to come.

The Three Angels Messages cannot be copyrighted, nor can the final Gospel message be suppressed or controlled by the corrupt Adventists. The next phase of the Advent Movement (4th Angels Message) does not depend on the bureaucracy of the SDA’s, much less on their many errors and manipulated history. Nor does anyone’s salvation depend on what this rebellious organization does.

History teaches that as the Advent Movement moved forward and developed, new leaders came forward and so too new denominations. The SDA Pioneers broke away from William Miller over doctrine, starting what they called the 3rd Angels Message, which is Seventh-day Adventism. They had great success for a time, but then they rejected the Gospel in1888 and self-destructed for all to see. (Then they regrouped in Takoma Park and repeated the same mistakes.)

No doubt the 4th Angels Message will also follow the same pattern, and thus the final Advent message will go forward regardless. In other words, a new more honest Advent denomination will come into existence, and then the Movement will go forward. It is the discovery and correction of error that moves Adventism forward, and now is the time for this reform process to take place once again.

Pastor Greg: We hope that someday the Adventist church will face some of these issues. We pray that one day soon there will be a courageous move made on the part of the leadership to reexamine the “pillars of the faith” and ask God to give them the courage to study openly, without risk, the fundamental teachings and see what the scriptures teach without worrying what will happen if there is a discovery that there have been some mistakes along the way. It takes courage to face difficult issues. But courage is one of the qualities that Adventists have been noted for in the past. We are confident that the same quality still exists.

Tom Norris: The Denomination has rejected numerous opportunities to tell the truth and repent for both 1888 and Glacier View. But they refuse; even when the evidence has been piled high and millions have walked out the door as a consequence. It is no longer realistic for anyone to think the SDA’s have any intention of apologizing for their many errors, and thus they will remain blind and confused, knowingly embracing false pillars and much error.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -FAITH.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ed-EGW.htm

If Adventism is to go forward, it must be by those who have left the legalistic SDA’s and embraced the Gospel. History shows that those who leave start the next “message.” This is what the SDA Pioneers did. So where are the new, Advent Pioneers of today? Where are those with Gospel courage and eschatological insight?

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=235

Pastor Greg: We do not think the church will suffer long term from such a study. Perhaps the image that the Adventists are the one and only remnant church would fall by the wayside.

Tom Norris: There is only one Gospel and one New Covenant Sabbath, but the SDA’s have not recovered either. The SDA’s were very presumptuous to think they have discovered all truth so as to instruct others. They have not. They are full of error, starting with the Sabbath.

Luke 6:42 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.

Pastor Greg: Perhaps the Investigative Judgement would hit the theological graveyard too.

Tom Norris. The IJ must be totally repudiated as false doctrine and great error. It was never a “pillar” in any of the Three Angels Messages, much less the 1st as the modern SDA’s teach. The IJ is a dead doctrine for all that follow Christ.

In addition, the genuine Pre-Advent Judgment must be embraced, which is found in Rev 3:14. There is no PAJ of the church in the OT, only in the NT.
The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227

Pastor Greg: There might be a whole new approach to the Sabbath.

Tom Norris: A new doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath has been discovered in the NT. It has been there all along. It represents a “whole new approach” to the Sabbath for both the SDA’s and Sunday keepers. It is a Gospel based, paradigm shifting doctrine for the Advent Movement and the Laodicean Church.

The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

Pastor Greg: It might be that Sabbath would be a suggested spiritual discipline rather than a moral ought.

Tom Norris: The Gospel Sabbath is a day for congregational fellowship and praise as well as good works. It is not about the Law. It is not a day of rest or refraining from activity like in the OT. Rather, it is a day of Gospel freedom and innocence, where good works, (working or play) can be done without guilt.

The NC Sabbath is a joyful, weekly, day for praise, fellowship, and good works. And so shall the Lord’s Day shall ever be.

Pastor Greg: The name “Seventh-day Adventist” might be reduced to just “Adventist” so as to keep the focus on Jesus rather than the law.

Tom Norris: The term 7th day is very important and correct. This is the only day for the Gospel Sabbath and the true Lord’s Day. But it is not a day of rest as many assume, but of good works.

Pastor Greg: Healthful living might be taught from a suggested lifestyle approach rather than a requirement that gets confused with salvation.

Tom Norris: The health Message is not for salvation, but for the benefit and healing of mankind. But the SDA’s hardly understand or embrace any health message today. The health message, correctly understood, is a fundamental “pillar.”

In addition, there is no such doctrine as clean or unclean foods in the NC. It is no longer a sin for anyone to eat anything, which was not the case in the OT. While certain foods may be bad for health, food is not sinful in the NC era. Period.

Mark 7:14 After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, “Listen to Me, all of you, and understand:

Mark 7:15 there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man.

Mark 7:16 [“If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”]

Mark 7:17 When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable.

Mark 7:18 And He said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,

Mark 7:19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

Pastor Greg: Maybe the church could become known as a church that truly is based on the Bible and the Bible alone.

Tom Norris: This is how the Advent Movement started. William Miller exposed the fact that every church was teaching a false view of eschatology. He proved by the Word that the 2nd Coming would take place before the millennium, and that this event would destroy the world. The fact that they had the date wrong is beside the point, the Adventists were correct about the doctrine of the 2nd Coming, which is why every church now teaches what Miller discovered.

Biblical-based doctrine is fundamental to the Protestant Faith and the Advent Movement. Which is why the IJ, as well as tithing and a hierarchy must be repudiated because it is against the Word. The local church can only be organized as a congregational model, even as the individuals in it are the primary beneficiaries of the Gospel. Not the leaders. The church is to take care of its members, just like in the NT.

Acts 4:34 For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales

Acts 4:35 and lay them at the apostles’ feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.

Pastor Greg: Perhaps there might even be some apologies made to those Christian groups that have been cut down and abused by the “evangelists” who called them “Apostates” and “Babylon”!

Tom Norris: The genuine Pre Advent Judgment demands “zealous repentance” from the SDA’s. So yes, they will have to make many apologies, including a big one to Dr. Ford. There is a long list of errors that the SDA’s must acknowledge and repudiate. Including their bad attitude. Others also have their own list of sins and false doctrines. Thus everyone in Laodicea is called to confess and emphatically repent.

Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

Pastor Greg: Maybe the focus in evangelism would shift toward reaching the 130 million unchurched people in this country instead of primarily those already connected to a church family.

Tom Norris: The focus would be on warning the entire church of the coming Tribulation and Judgment. Gospel eschatology will stir the world, and a great division will be created in the church over the fate of mankind.

Pastor Greg: Perhaps the Adventists around the globe would become known as a people passionate about reaching people for Jesus, cooperative in connecting with other Christian groups, and totally unselfish in using the church’s massive resources for the cause of Christ.

Tom Norris: The power of the Gospel will energize the church, even as the local church will become the driving force for truth, love, and good works.

Pastor Greg: Maybe all of this sounds like a dream, but can you imagine how God could bless an organization with that kind of courage and authenticity? Imagine how spiritual seekers and believers alike would respect such authentic spirituality.

Tom Norris: The development of the 4th Angels Message, which includes the correct version of the NC Sabbath, will create another Protestant Reformation in the church. It will invigorate the dying Advent Movement and change everything.

What is the 4th Angel's Message?
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=769

Pastor Greg: But it will not happen if there are not at least a few that are praying for true revival and unity in the body of Christ, the unity that comes when all true Christians take John 17 seriously.

Tom Norris: Prayer must be joined with action. Today, there is a clear path for the Advent Movement.

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=234

Pastor Greg: We happen to know that there are many SDAs among the grass roots, including some pastors, administrators, and teachers, that have this heart.
Tom Norris: There are far more former SDA’s than those whose names are on the books. Millions seek for truth and Gospel understanding, and at some point they must be given the truth and educated in the teachings of Jesus.

Luke 10:2 And He was saying to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.

Pastor Greg: But nothing will happen as long as it just takes place in little discussions in the back rooms.

Tom Norris: Agreed. It is time for those who understand the Gospel, church history and the Protestant Fundamentals to go forward to the next and final level of Adventism.

Pastor Greg: Someday we believe that God is going to accomplish these things in Adventism. We will be praying daily for just such a revival.

Tom Norris: It is time for Adventist Reform to be understood, organized, and implemented. There is no permission required from the SDA’s to follow truth and move forward. Neither the Tribulation nor the 2nd Coming which follows are going to wait for the SDA’s to get their act together. The world marches forward to the great time of trouble and the Judgment.

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=768

Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

Rev. 18:2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.

Rev. 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

Rev. 18:5 for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

Rev. 18:8 “For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.

Rev. 18:9 “And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and
lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning,

Rev. 18:10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for All Experts.com & Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 11-10-12 1:34 pm

Question for Tom Norris: While thinking about the recent election and the deep political divide in the US, I couldnt help but note how politically divided my SDA denomination is.

One obvious division are the black and white conferences that still exist to this day.

However it seems that this division seems to be dissolving into a more conservative versus liberal struggle for the identity of the church.

Another way of looking at it is this attempt to define who is really SDA and who is not. This struggle apparently spills over into many avenues from doctrine to food, to national politics, style of worship and even sexuality.

Question: Is there a way to determine who is really SDA or is that not even an important issue anymore?

Marvin,

---------------------------------------------------------

Tom Norris answers: The Gospel is not to be confused with national politics, nor is correct doctrine determined by popular vote.

Moreover, this idea from the modern Christian Right that certain religious views about gender, contraceptives, or abortion, etc must become the law of the land is outrageous and wrong.

Religion is not to be legislated by, or mixed with, Civil law. Those who try to force their religious views on others are not only refuting the teachings of Christ, they are also repudiating the fundamentals of the Pilgrim Fathers who came to America for religious freedom. They are also refuting the Constitution, which deregulated religion and prohibited the State from making any laws about doctrine or religious faith.

The 1st Amendment states: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation … _Amendment

Religious Freedom is not a slogan. Rather, it is a fundamental principle of the Gospel as well as of American democracy, one that is often violated by those who claim to be religious.

The 19th century Sunday Sacredness Movement, which focused on Sunday Blue Laws, is a good example of how the conservatives in the US have tried to force their religious views on others, -- in clear violation of the Constitution. Prohibition was another shameful time in American history where religious zealots forced their views on others, making matters only worse for all concerned.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ay-Law.htm

Shame on those today that try to force others to follow their religious views. This is very wrong and counterproductive at every level. It is against the Gospel and Democracy.

The teachings of Jesus do not support much of what passes for Christianity today. Nor are the organized churches searching for Gospel truth or God’s will. They have all been reduced to a business, where money, power, and politics matter most.

2Tim. 3:1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.

2Tim. 3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,

2Tim. 3:3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,

2Tim. 3:4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

2Tim. 3:5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power;

Two Choices

Jesus teaches that there are only two basic choices in life. One that leads to the Gospel and one that does not. What a stunning development that the last church, meaning ALL denominations, has chosen a false path, -not just the SDA’s. Every church in the land is heading for “destruction.”

Matt. 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Few understand that Jesus has condemned every church and denomination at the end of time. He has judged them all to be blind and naked, unsaved and delusional in the real Pre-Advent Judgment. They have all embraced a false and “wretched” Gospel for which they must repent or else.

Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Two Types of Laodiceans

To better understand how to view SDA’s today, we should first look at how the NT views all Christians, just before the Judgment of the Second Coming. There are only two basic types of Laodiceans:

Type 1 Laodicean

Type 1 Laodiceans are blind, naked, and doctrinally delusional. This arrogant group does not understand the Gospel or eschatology correctly, nor are they saved. But yet, they think they have all truth. Jesus speaks about them plainly.

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Type 2 Laodicean

Type 2 Laodiceans understand that they have embraced legions of false doctrine. Consequently, they are repentant, humble, embracing Gospel Reform with both hands, even as they promote correct eschatology. They are shown in Rev 18

Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

Rev. 18:2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.

The SDA’s are part of Laodicea; they too have been judged guilty in the PAJ. They are not excused, much less rewarded for embracing the wrong view of the Gospel and the Pre Advent Judgment. They too have been told to confess their many false doctrines and zealously repent. They too are instructed to search for truth and stop playing games.

So far, the SDA leaders refuse to admit any errors, even as the majority of their members have walked out the door in protest. So this denomination remains blind and very foolish. But a portion of SDA’s will repent and become Gospel Adventists, just as some from all other denominations will do the same thing.

Two Basic Types SDA’s

While there are many ways to categorize the present SDA confusion, let’s keep it simple and look at two basic types of Adventists. The first group refuses to repent for their many errors and thus they will not search for truth.

However, the second group will repent of their many errors like the IJ, tithe, and the Old Covenant Sabbath. They want to go forward and follow Gospel truth. These are the “real” Adventists. Only those who repentant and honestly follow Christ will go forward to become genuine New Covenant Adventists.

Those who cling to their false traditions are not genuine Adventists at all. They are Old Covenant SDA’s and Judaizers, delusional and stubborn, banished from the kingdom of God.

Today every organized church and denomination in Laodicea is called to repent and embrace Gospel Reform. Those that do so, are genuine Christians, those that don’t, are just pretending.

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

I trust this addresses your thoughtful question.

Tom Norris for All Experts.com & Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 12-23-12 11:27 pm

Some on Adventist Online are trying to have a discussion about the Sabbath and the Two Covenants: They have discovered Adventist Reform and are trying to deal with the active, NC Sabbath that we have been discussing for years.

Good for them!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why Do We Hold on to the Old Covenant?
Posted by Fight4Jesus on December 15, 2012 at 11:58am in Theology, The Bible, and Spirit of Prophecy

http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/to … d-covenant

Someone posted this on Adventist Online: on December 17, 2012 at 4:05pm

I had to share this with you about the New Covenant Sabbath. It is a discussion from Adventist Reform and it is very interesting, gives us new insights:

Tom said: Jesus did not teach a Sabbath Rest, nor did he claim to be the Sabbath. While Jesus gives the believer spiritual rest 24/7, he does not teach that the 7th day is a day of rest as the SDA’s, and others claim.

In fact, Jesus was very active on the Sabbath, even to the point of breaking the Law of Moses. But he did this on purpose in order to explain the NC Sabbath, which was about doing good works and not resting…

Someone posted on December 17, 2012 at 4:13pm: Wow! According to Tom Norris, who knows what he is talking about, this (Col 2:16) is a revolutionary wonderful sentence, explaining that the Sabbath like all the other 9 commandments, are to be kept in freedom and love.

Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —

Basically Tom is saying that this verse means that we shouldn’t judge each other concerning the way in which we keep the Sabbath. And if we see how Jesus kept the Sabbath, he taught us to do good works on the Sabbath! Which is quite different than the Old Testament Sabbath.

I personally am convinced that the New Covenant Sabbath theory is worth investigating because most of us have been taught the 4th commandment in an Old Testament fashion, whereas the New Testament Sabbath is so much better!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom said: It is only a matter of time before the Adventist Community examines the doctrine of the Sabbath and understands that they have embraced an error all these years.

It is only a matter of time before all SDA's understand there must be many corrections made to Adventist theology. What is being taught about the law and the Gospel, the Sabbath and the Judgment, even church history, etc, is very wrong. All SDA's must repent and make many corrections to doctrine if they want to go forward to the next level of Adventist understanding, which is the 4th Angels Message.

It is time for a deeper and more biblical view of the Gospel and the Sabbath. It is time for serious, honest, Bible study within the Adventist Community. The status quo is dysfunctional, wrong, and not sustainable. There is no reason to pretend any longer.

Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 12-29-12 3:48 pm

Adventist Reform

Here is a short discussion about the 12-Point Reform Path that has been laid out for the SDA Community:

As usual, our Every Day Sabbath champion, Bob2, a former, Traditional SDA, is playing the “devil’s advocate,” --and losing the discussion in the process.

Tom said: Reform Point #1.Today the SDA church is teaching the wrong version of the Three Angels Messages. Only the Protestant Gospel and the Second Coming are featured and contained in the original version of the 1st Angels message.

Thus "the hour of his Judgment has come" in Rev 14: 7 is ONLY a reference to the Second Coming, not to the IJ. This means that Traditional Adventism is wrong. It does not have the support of Ellen White or the Pioneers.

Response by Bob2: In order to have a final judgment, doesn’t there have to be a review of everyone’s life? I’m not into the IJ but I would think a pre-advent judgment must happen before the decision is given, and is it your thought then that Christ does that review on His trip to earth????

Tom said: Bob, you are not paying attention.

The PAJ has ALREADY taken place! It is not the IJ, which is mythical, and based on Old Covenant writings that have no authority over the church.

The PAJ is the Laodicean Message, which was spoken by Christ and written down in the NT for the edification of the church. THIS is the genuine PAJ of the last church. Here is eschatological truth for all to see.

I repeat; THE LM IS THE PAJ. Let all in the SDA community, including those that left because of the error of the IJ, comprehend this theological fact and embrace the true PAJ.

Today, the Laodicean church, meaning every denomination, has ALREADY failed this pre advent examination by Christ. All in the last church are condemned unless they repent and embrace genuine Gospel Reform.

Rev. 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.

Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

Dan 8:14 is NOT the Pre Advent Judgment of the Church. It is the story of Hanukkah.

Revelation 3: 14 IS the PAJ of the Laodicean Church.

When the Advent Movement understands this theological fact, and repents for their great error about the IJ, -- THEN they can go forward to the next level, which the Pioneers called the 4th Angels Message. This should be the focus of the Advent Movement today.

See:

First Angel's Message & the Pre-Advent Judgment
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ge-Pre.htm

The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message:
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227

Understanding the Pre Advent Judgment
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/8/9213.html

PAJ Necessary

The SDA’s get high marks for understanding there must be a pre-Advent judgment. Too bad they embraced the wrong view of this eschatological doctrine.

Let all understand that there is a PAJ, and it has been completed. All that is left is for the church to comprehend this theological fact and re-act accordingly.

Those who embrace the IJ are not only wasting their time and misunderstanding the Gospel Story; they are also being diverted away from the genuine Christ and his correct doctrine of the PAJ and the many other doctrines. If this fatal error is not corrected, their doom is inevitable.

Let all SDA’s RUN from the IJ and loudly repudiate it so that they can embrace the correct PAJ, which is the LM.

Rev. 3:22 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

Tom said: Reform Point #2.The doctrine of the IJ is not true or valid because the Apostles do not teach such theology. In fact, nowhere in the NT is such a Celestial judgment taught, much less one that it started in 1844.

Response by Bob2: Again don’t you think that there ought to be a period of review (investigation) of all men’s’ lives?

Tom said: Again, the PAJ has already taken place! Thus all Christians in Laodicea have already been “investigated,” and the verdict is not good. In fact, the verdict is catastrophic for the church, requiring action and zealous repentance from all or they are doomed.

Rev. 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.

Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

So yes, there was a time of examination and investigation for the last church, - before the 2nd Coming. However, that period has past, even as the verdict of the pre Advent judgment has been announced by Christ and recorded in scripture for all to see. “Blind, naked, and unsaved.” Guilty and delusional.

I suggest that all SDA’s pay very close attention to this paradigm changing point. Dan 8:14 is to be replaced with Rev 3:14 as the genuine PAJ. Here is an important change to Adventist theology that all should embrace.

Tom said: Reform #3. The SDA's teach a false Gospel that blends JBF with our Sanctification. Such a doctrine is Roman Catholic, not Protestant.

If the SDA's want to be Protestant, they must separate and distinguish the Moral law from the Gospel. They must repudiate their position that Sanctification and law keeping are salvific, even as they repent for both 1888 and Glacier View.

Response from Bob2: Justification is free; Sanctification is the work of life time. Sanctification is a cooperative work between us and the Holy Spirit. Paul talks of a race or a fight to overcome, eh.

Tom said: You have not rebutted the premise, much less articulated a coherent response.

Moreover, you have ignored the fact that the SDA’s long ago predicted that there would come a time when the Gospel would be more fully understood and proclaimed by the Advent Movement. They called this the Loud Cry of the 4th Angels Message and linked it to Rev 18.

They were correct. Eschatology moves forward…

When the Gospel is fully understood, so too the New Covenant Sabbath, the Judgment, eschatology, and many other doctrines. The modern SDA’s should be pushing forward to better understand the Gospel and last day events. Instead they waste their time promoting false and absurd doctrine.

It is clear that the SDA’s today have embraced a false and twisted view of the Gospel Story and church history. As a result, they have been condemned in the PAJ, which is the LM.
I suggest that you study the Reformation and try to better understand this historic debate between about the law and the Gospel. It will be repeated.

Law & Gospel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1122

Tom said: Reform #4. The SDA's have the wrong hermeneutic. Ellen White does not have any doctrinal authority and she never claimed otherwise.

The White Estate has misled millions on this point. This corrupt institution needs major reform. Only the Apostles have doctrinal authority for the church, and the Pioneers were in full agreement with this Protestant position. The NT interprets the OT, preventing the unauthorized manufacturer of fictional doctrine as the SDA's have also incorrectly done.

Ellen White was NEITHER an Old Testament Prophet nor a New Testament Apostle. Her writings are not inspired like scripture, nor are they scripture. In fact, the Adventist Pioneers taught that Bible Study always trumps any visions that Ellen White may have had on any topic. The White Estate must repent and correct the record.

Response from Bob2: EGW said to test her to the Bible, if it doesn’t match, then you have to call it error.

Tom said: Your response is incoherent. The modern SDA’s have a false and incorrect view of Ellen White and hermeneutics. Both need to be corrected.

Until the SDA’s repent for their manipulation and dishonesty about Ellen White, they are doomed to self-destruct. The White Estate must confess what they have done and correct the record.

Tom said: Reform #5. The SDA denomination is not organized properly. It is incorrectly based on the Old Covenant doctrine of tithe. This Hierarchical model that supported both the Leviticial Priesthood and the Temple is not valid for the church. The SDA Denomination is not the "storehouse" for tithe, nor is the General Conference to be compared with the Old Covenant Jewish Temple.

The doctrine of New Testament tithe must be repudiated, and so too the present hierarchical structure that mimics Rome.

Response from Bob2: The hierarchy of the church is for you to show something better right Tom. The tithe position is self-defeating.

Tom said: Again, your response is not coherent or useful. The NT is clear about how the church is to be organized and managed. Neither Jesus nor the apostolic church practiced tithing. This SDA myth is utter nonsense and fraud.

The Fraud of Church Tithing
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=239

The apostles did not own any of the local churches; much less receive a tithe from them. There can be no hierarchy, or a separate priesthood, or tithing in the New Covenant. It is forbidden. Every church must be congregational in nature, owning their own church and hiring their own pastors. All are equal, and all are priests of God, both men and women.

If SDA’s are to go forward in Gospel truth, they must repudiate tithing and their dictatorial control and ownership of the local churches. The local church is to serve the local community of believers, not support a distant hierarchical leadership in another location.

Tom said: Reform #6. The SDA position about the Two Covenants is very wrong. Their teaching that the 10 Commandments are not part of the Old Covenant is dangerous, false, and legalistic. And so too their position that obedience to the law is salvific.

This is what the famous 1888 debates were all about. But the General Conference, Review, and White Estate hid this information from the church, even as they suppressed and misrepresented Ellen White's views about the law and the Gospel.

Thus many of the Old Covenant doctrines that SDA's promote, such as the clean and unclean foods, tithe, and the Sabbath of the Pharisees is wrong.

The SDA's must repudiate their past errors about the Law and the Gospel and embrace the Two Covenants correctly. They must tell the truth about Adventist history, even as they must correct the historical record.

Response from Bob2: Tom, Salvation involves Justification, which I believe, takes care of the past. Original Sin. But then the "fight a good the fight and the race to be run. The effort is cooperative and empowerment from the Spirit. The Old Covenant was fulfilled at the Cross.

Tom said: Wrong answer. It is obvious that you don’t understand the Protestant Gospel. Few SDA’s do. I suggest that you study the difference between the Protestant view of the Gospel and that of a Roman Catholic.

Law & Gospel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1122

Bob2 said: I understand enough about what you are trying to peddle Tom and I don't buy into it one iota.

Tom said: Your confusion is only exceeded by your stubbornness to repent and learn the Gospel. You are in a cultic fog, unable to see clearly.

Matt. 13:14 “In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

Bob2 said; What I said in my last post was to get you to realize SDAs are not interested in what you have to say. They are not about to change. Probably you both are at a standoff.

Tom said: Those that seek truth, are very much interested in Adventist Reform. Just take a look at how many people are viewing these discussions both here and at All Experts.com. Interest is growing in the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. It is only a matter of time for this truth becomes common knowledge.

Reviews From Users
http://www.allexperts.com/expert.cgi?m= … xpID=70484

In fact, many hundreds have contacted me with questions and thanks. It is only a matter of time before Adventist Reform clears up the confusion and double-talk of the SDA’s and pushes the paradigm forward. Facts are more powerful than myths, and so it will be with AR

Bob2 said: I did face the issues Tom, and concluded that there is no Christian Sabbath. There is no Sunday Sabbath.

Tom said: First off, who cares what you have “concluded”? You are not an apostle or even a scholar, so your opinion about doctrine has no value. Especially since you have been raised in Cultic Adventism. That is the equivalent of being raised on lead paint. Traditional Adventism ruins the brain and makes clear thinking impossible.

So if I were you, I would be very careful of reaching any final “conclusions” about things you know so little about. At this point, you should only conclude that you need more study to better understand the Gospel and church history.

Second, the Gospels are full of Jesus teaching about the Sabbath, including many specific debates with the Jews about this doctrine. For anyone to declare there is no Sabbath for the church, they must first disregard the Gospels and what Jesus is teaching about the New Covenant Sabbath over and over. Are you prepared to be so dismissive of Christ and his teachings? Apparently so.

While many, like you, see no problem with ignoring the teachings of Jesus about a point they do not like, such behavior is the essence of false Christianity. Those who ignore what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, which is a lot of material, will never understand the Gospel Story properly. Nor will they be saved.

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

When it comes to any discussion about the Sabbath, the specific teachings of Christ must become the primary source to define and understand this Gospel doctrine that became the basis for placing Christ on the cross. Those who follow Christ must do so; pretending does not count.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Third; Those that ignore Christ about the Sabbath, also misconstrue what the rest of the NT teaches about the Sabbath, even pretending that Paul is the Lord of the Sabbath, declaring there is no such doctrine. Such hermeneutical incompetence will never lead to Gospel truth or understanding.

Sorry Bob, your “conclusions” do not trump the clear teachings of Christ about the NC Sabbath. And neither does the legalistic, SDA view of the Sabbath, which has prevented many from being able to comprehend the true Reformed Sabbath of Christ. Sad.

Bob2 said: We are free to worship any day and Christianity isn't about "keeping" a day, it is all about Jesus and His Grace. Nothing more needs to be added. We cannot work our way to Heaven by observing days. Jesus is enough and when we rest in Him we are refreshed.

Tom said: No Christian is free to repudiate the teachings of Christ about any point of doctrine, much less the Sabbath. Those who feel free to ignore what they don’t like and spin the Gospels into fictional doctrines, have fallen from Grace.

Moreover, I am not saying that the Gospel Sabbath has anything to do with working our way to heaven. That would be the SDA, OC view of the Sabbath, the one that you followed for many years.

The NC Sabbath elevates Christ, not the 7th day, which is why Jesus allows all to work on the Sabbath. The Gospel Sabbath is not about obedience to the Law, but faith in Christ and his teachings, which trump the law.

Furthermore, this false idea that Jesus is our Sabbath rest, is not taught in the Gospels. Jesus makes no such statement anywhere, anytime, even though there are many passages in the Gospels where he teaches and debates about the Sabbath.

Those that follow Christ must do so, including what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. Those that are just pretending are easily exposed by the way they treat the Sabbath teachings of Christ.

Sorry to be so blunt, but you need to face the fact that you do not believe or follow what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. You are not even close. Which means you are following a false, worthless Christ, as well as false religious teachers. Sad.

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Tom said: Reform #7. The SDA's are wrong to promote the doctrine of abstinence, which originates from the Koran. There is no such doctrine in either Judaism or the Christian Faith, and thus the SDA's are teaching, not only Muslim doctrine, but also the false practice of the Lord's Supper.

The NT does not allow Grape Juice to be substitute for naturally fermented wine. Nor can the Lord's Supper be observed with Soft drinks, Orange Juice, or any other beverage.

Bob2 response: here you are straining at gnats. The whole service is symbolic. Question, what do you offer underage kids that are baptized???

Tom said: The Lord’s Supper (aka Eucharist) is the most important and sacred of all Gospel ceremonies. This Passover based ritual was designed and commanded by Christ for the church to follow.

Matt. 26:27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;

Matt. 26:28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

To claim that Jesus command for “all” to drink the symbolic red wine of the New Covenant is trivial and “straining gnats” is outrageous and absurd. How can any Christian make such a blasphemous statement?

Like I said, we either follow the genuine Christ or we don’t. Many have embraced a fraud and apparently don’t know it nor do they care. Such are doomed.

As for the children; it has long been practiced to add water to the wine to dilute it. Let’s not use children as an excuse to ignore Christ and practice false doctrine.

Tom said: Reform #8. The SDA's have embraced the Seventh-day Sabbath of the Pharisees instead of the Reformed, New Covenant Sabbath that Jesus teaches in the Gospels.

The SDA's have never understood the proper Gospel Sabbath, and neither has the post-apostolic, Gentile church. When the SDA's grasp the Gospel, they will understand the Gospel Sabbath. But so far, they have failed to comprehend both doctrines correctly.

Response from Bob2: You both are wrong, show me the command within the New Covenant or a direct command from Jesus that Sabbath was to be kept in His kingdom or NC after His death. Before His death He had to live perfectly the OC Law.

Tom said: In the NT, Jesus is shown as a Sabbath Breaker, reforming the OC Sabbath into the NC Sabbath in all four Gospels. This point is self-evident and irrefutable.

He also teaches that his NC Sabbath was made for all mankind, not just for the Jews. This too is an irrefutable fact. But yet you do not believe these words of Christ. So be it. The vast majority rejects the teachings of Jesus, and so too do you.

John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Tom said: Reform 9. The SDA doctrine of the Pre-Advent Judgment is wrong. It is not Dan 8:14, but Rev 3: 14. Thus the PAJ of the church is the Laodicean Message, not the mythical and non-existent, Investigative Judgment. The SDA's need to admit this fact and act accordingly, which means they must repent and correct their false doctrines.

Response from Bob2: There is a Pre Advent Judgment, and I believe each live will be investigated, that is not tipped off from 1844. The dead can be investigated any time after their death. The living will have Probation until:

Tom said: The PAJ is the LM. The investigation is over. The church has failed badly. Rev 22:11 is only to see who has repented, - as demanded by the PAJ.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

**This point about Rev 3: 14 being the PAJ, -- is a paradigm shifting doctrine that will allow the Advent Movement to go forward to the next level of Gospel understanding. Here is the key that frees Adventism from their cultic prison of false eschatology.

John 8:31-32 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

Tom said: Reform #10. The SDA's must once again understand and embrace genuine Adventist Health Reform. Although this was one area where they were most successful in the 19th century, today they have abandoned the Natural Health movement of which they were once the leaders. They must correct this great error and make up for lost time.

Response by Bob2: I can't eat my beef Ball Park weiner and go to Heaven. Where is that written in Scripture? I've never found Veja links mention in the Scriptures.

Tom said: Jesus was a healer, and so too some of the apostles. Christ associates the Gospel with good health and healing, and thus the SDA’s were correct to embrace Health Reform. Those who value life and health will not deliberately make themselves sick. Nor will anyone filled with the Spirit be led into a lifestyle that invites sickness and disease.

So this is not about salvation, but about helping people live better lives, free of sickness and disease here on earth. Jesus cared about the health and well-being of people and so too must the church.

Matt. 4:24 The news about Him spread throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all who were ill, those suffering with various diseases and pains, demoniacs, epileptics, paralytics; and He healed them.

Luke 5:15 But the news about Him was spreading even farther, and large crowds were gathering to hear Him and to be healed of their sicknesses.

Today, people are inflicted with legions of disease, like the epidemic of diabetes, high blood pressure, and heart problems. These are self-inflicted for the most part and can be cured by a natural diet and exercise. The church has a duty to help people live more healthy lives. Jesus has made this point very clear.

Tom said: Reform #11. The SDA's do not have credible eschatology for the 21st century. The predicted Sunday laws, with which they are so obsessed, cannot be the start of the time of trouble-- because the NT does not support such a position. Thus they need to pay closer attention to both Jesus and Paul's Gospel based eschatology as well as the book of Revelation in order to develop a credible version of Adventist eschatology.

Today, the 3rd Angels Message is no longer united or functional. Which means that the Adventists no longer have an active or credible prophetic message. To solve this problem, the Advent people must move forward to develop and promote the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18.

Here is the point of the Adventist Apocalyptic, and the reason why the Advent Movement exists; to proclaim the final Gospel message and prepare the church for the Second Coming and the end of the world.

Response from Bob2: Why jump to Rev 18 when Rev 14 still have additional angels to be accounted for. So this is a salvific point for you? Believe it as you have stated or die???

Tom said: The Gospel is an eschatological doctrine. Jesus teaches that his followers must ever be alert and ready for the tribulation. The Advent Movement gets credit for discovering the Three Angels Messages of Rev 14, and for teaching that a fourth and final movement will take place just before the end of the world.

Matt. 24:42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

The SDA teaching that Sunday laws start the time of trouble is false. The NT teaches no such thing. So this popular SDA view must be repudiated so that the real cause of the tribulation can be understood.

Luke 21:36 “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

The NT makes it clear that a sudden attack is what starts the time of Trouble.

Rev. 18:8 “For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.

Rev. 18:9 ¶ “And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning,

Rev. 18:10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

Tom said: Reform #12. Once the final generation of Christians understands the last Gospel Message, they must prepare for the time of trouble that will precede the Second Coming. They must take action to prepare the church to stand in a manner that reflects and reinforces their eschatology. They must build cities and villages of refuge-- out of harms way-- in preparation for the horror that is to come.

Response by Bob2: Tom, why not go one step further and believe that God will rapture the saints so they won't be harmed. You limit your God. God can protect His own, and I have never seen instructions to build "cities and villages of refuge"!!!!

Tom said: Bob, you speak like a fool. While I appreciate your playing the devils advocate, your comments often make little sense. The Secret Rapture, though popular with some, is not taught in the Bible, and as a former SDA you should know this fact.

Moreover, Jesus teaches that when certain events take place, his followers are to move out of harm’s way. Taking refuge in the higher elevations, away from the large population centers that will soon come under attack.

Matt. 24:14 “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Matt. 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

Matt. 24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Matt. 24:17 “Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

Matt. 24:18 “Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

The very fact that Jesus gives such specific commands to flee, presumes that those who run to safety have made preparations before hand. In fact, Jesus warns that there should be no delay in this sudden relocation. Those unprepared will have no time to do so.

Matt. 24:19 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

Matt. 24:20 “But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Matt. 24:22 “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Today, it is time for the Advent Movement to update its’ view of eschatology from the 19th to the 21st century. The end of the world is not going to take place the way the Pioneers imagined, but it will take place nonetheless.

Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Matt. 24:22 “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Today, the last church, meaning all denominations, must submit to the PAJ and repent. All must better understand Gospel eschatology and prepare for the great Tribulation which precedes the 2nd Coming.

This is the specific work of the Advent Movement. It is their destiny.

The end of the world is much closer than ever before. But the church is blind and clueless, unprepared and unsaved; full of corruption and legions of false doctrine.

It is time for the Advent Movement to wake up, REPENT, and go forward to fulfill its’ Gospel destiny.

The 12-point Reform Plan represents the correct path for 21st century Adventism.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 08-26-13 5:51 pm

Question about Adventist Reform:

From: Kathy

I have been an Adventist since 2005.

I was not given the opportunity to review the baptismal vows concerning tithing, Ellen White,etc. before my baptism and I reluctantly accepted them on the spot.

I have always had concern over the importance placed on Ellen White and her books. I have found texts in her books not biblical.

I am at the point of leaving the church because I don't agree with the teachings and self-righteousness. I am taught that God is love; however, I am not seeing the fruits in my church. I am torn between ignoring what is taught and keeping my focus on God or leaving the church.

What can I do in a non-leadership role to help reform the church?

Kathy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer from Tom Norris:

The question to remain in the SDA church has often been asked, - especially since 1980, when Dr. Ford was exiled for telling the truth about Ellen White, Church History, and the Gospel. Since that time millions of former SDA’s have left, resulting in a crisis of credibility that has only become worse over time, not better.

Dr, Ford and Glacier View
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … r-View.htm

Dr. Ford Interview
http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … /intro.cfm

Decline In Attendance
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ndance.htm

Leaving the SDA Church
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=233

While you have only been in the church for a short time, many of those that left Adventism have been SDA for generations. They left because the SDA’s have not been honest about the Gospel, church history, or their doctrinal development.

In short, the 20th century leaders, who were very legalistic, were also very dishonest about Ellen White and what she taught about doctrine. They have been caught “red handed” suppressing and manipulating her writings and books in one of the largest and ongoing publishing frauds in history.

Let all understand that the SDA’s have been caught covering up what happened in Battle Creek and promoting a very false version of church history. They are great deceivers that refuse to admit what they have done, much less repent and correct the record.

Hidden Documents in White Estate
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Estate.htm

So people get angry when they find out that the White Estate has deliberately misled everyone about Ellen White, church history, and doctrine. (This is what happened to Walter Rea).

http://walterrea.com/

Who can blame the members for getting upset when they see the church denying what they have so obviously done, pretending to be honest when they are not. It makes people angry that those who claim to follow Christ are so corrupt and dishonest.

See: Ellen White
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=225

Today, the modern SDA’s are “bait and switch” experts. They will bring new members into the church under false pretenses. They know full well that these new members have no idea what a mess of confusion and error they are getting into. So they hide the raging debates about 1844 and 1888 and say nothing of the great Battle Creek Schism that almost destroyed the SDA Denomination, forcing the church to retreat to Takoma Park at the turn of the 20th century.

They also ignore Glacier View in 1980 as well as the fact that there are more former SDA’s than there are members in North America.

People today are brought into the SDA church under very false pretenses - by the church. They are not told the facts about the ongoing crisis of division, debate, and schism that is only getting worse as time goes on.

Of course if the SDA’s told the truth about all this confusion and false doctrine, no one would join. So they hide what is really going on, pretending all is well, and that they alone have all the truth, blah, blah, blah, when in fact, they are full of error, one step away from a total meltdown.

Today, in spite of spending $ millions on endless propaganda, the SDA’s cannot grow in North America. Their Old Covenant views have gone stale and so too their discredited views about Ellen White and the IJ.

Understand that you are only one of millions who can no longer tolerate so much dishonesty and false doctrine. Good for you to have a conscience and a brain!

The SDA’s no longer seek for truth; rather, they seek control over people’s minds and their wallets. Their claim to have no error or false doctrine is laughable. And so too is most of what they teach. But on they go, denying the facts that condemn them.

Let all understand that the SDA’s are not looking to repent and correct their false doctrines. Not at all. They will not listen to what anyone says, nor will they give any new doctrine room on their closed, legalistic agenda. They are determined not to believe the Gospel. So be it. The Jews took the same fatal position.

You either do it their way, believing what the SDA’s teach for doctrine and church history, or you can leave. And most eventually leave. Only to be replaced with others that have no idea what is taking place. But in a few years, they too discover that the SDA’s are in a great crisis, full of false doctrine and much corruption. And so the cycle goes over and over...

In fact, things are so bad, that the Denomination has recently hired a Public Relations firm to try and figure out how to market a positive message that will help the church grow.

The SDA’s not looking for truth or correction, but for ways to make their errors and double-talk look like truth. They have become great deceivers. Let all BEWARE.

Seventh-day Adventist Church hires Allison
http://www.prweekus.com/seventh-day-adv … le/300298/

Church Hires PR Firm
http://eud.adventist.org/inspiration/co … s-pr-firm/

The harder the SDA’s try to make error look true, the worse things become for them. Thanks to the Internet, the Denomination can no longer control either the agenda or the flow of information, both of which they used to control for decades.

However, the Internet is their undoing as it contains a flood of negative information about Ellen White and church doctrine that has been suppressed for years. With such information so readily accessible, the North America membership cannot grow because the public does not support dishonest, double-talking cults that exile their own members for telling the truth.

Censorship, while constantly practiced by the SDA’s, no longer works. To the chagrin of the leaders, the Internet cannot be censored or silenced. And most are not comfortable to learn that the SDA’s are not honest about the Bible or church history. Thus the need for a Public Relations Firm to help the Denomination appear in a more favorable light.

Today, there is such a high negativity rating from former SDA’s that it makes it impossible for the Denomination to grow in North America. The complaints of those who have left grow louder by the year. But yet, the leaders refuse to address the issues, pretending they have no doctrinal errors that need correction.

The SDA leaders would rather hire a Public Relations firm to make them look good, then repent of their many errors and make the necessary corrections.

In fact, the SDA’s not only refuse to admit any error, much less repent, they have launched a cyber war against their legion of critics. But the real issues, like 1844, 1888, Ellen White, and Glacier View, can no longer be covered up and hidden. Thus the cry for Gospel Reform within the Adventist Community is growing.

Recent SDA History

Following the manipulated trial of Dr. Ford at Glacier View in 1980, the SDA’s entered into a protracted period of disorientation that has only become worse over the decades. Millions of once loyal members left the church in the late 20th century, and more leave all the time as the new members eventually discover the same old problems about Ellen White and the great error of the IJ.

Thus the Adventists have embraced an Old Covenant, legalistic mindset. They don’t understand or embrace the New Covenant teachings of Christ, nor do they want to. They are in the dark, even as they claim to be in the light.

Today, many, like you, are asking how they should deal with the present crisis unfolding within the SDA Denomination? Should they leave or should they stay and try to correct the situation?

Most leave in anger, and many soon repudiate everything Adventist, trashing the very religion they once thought so true.

But this is not helpful as there is truth within Adventism, even though it might not appear that way right now. But the point here is to understand that there is a serious schism taking place within the SDA church. Things are so bad that groups are forming to help those leaving Adventism, even as many publically testify against what is being taught by the dishonest and arrogant SDA’s.

See:
Former Adventist Fellowship
http://www.formeradventist.com/

Ex-Adventist Outreach
http://www.exadventist.com/home/intro/t … fault.aspx

Leaving the SDA’s
http://www.exadventist.com/home/testimo … fault.aspx

Patricia Allen
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-12303 … -Allen.htm

What SDA’s Need To Know
http://help_for_sdas.tripod.com/

Why People Leave the SDA Church?
http://www.jesusadventismandi.com/2013/ … hurch.html

Leaving the SDA’s
http://jimmoyers.com/LeavingGarden.html

The Advent Movement deserves better. The end of the world is going to come and so too the Time of Trouble before that. The world is but a step away from catastrophe and many people are scared about the future and the end of the world. But who is prepared?

Where is credible 21st century eschatology?

No where.

Here is a critical failure of the SDA’s.

While they deserve great credit for their original views about the Second Coming, they have no credible eschatology today, nor are they even looking for something to replace their legalistic nonsense about Sunday Laws, which makes no sense in the 21st century.

The Advent Movement is Protestant and it does have some necessary Gospel truth, especially when it comes to eschatology. None of it should be wasted. But the time has come to face facts and remove the many errors that have overwhelmed modern Adventism. It is time for Adventist Reform.

If the SDA’s want to become brain dead and useless, so be it. But the Advent Movement must go forward regardless, without them. There must be Adventist Reform and forward progress. There is a Time of Trouble approaching and heaven is not about to wait for the SDA’s.

Matt. 24:19 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

Matt. 24:20 “But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Matt. 24:22 “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

The time has come for a doctrinal Reformation to take place within the Adventist Community. It is time for eschatology to move forward in Gospel truth and urgency.

See:

Adventist Reform
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=234

The Tribulation
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=768

Crisis of Conscience

What is an Adventist to do when they find out that much of what they have been taught is wrong? When their best scholars, men of integrity, like Dr. Ford, were exiled for telling the Gospel truth about Ellen White and church doctrine and history?

Dr. Ford was slandered by the SDA leaders for honestly trying to correct error and promote Gospel truth. But the leaders refused to admit their errors and threw him out of the church, much like Paul was thrown out of the Synagogue in Corinth. And the leaders are still promoting this fraud about Ellen White and the IJ today just as the Jews deny the Gospel.

The SDA’s have no intentions of admitting their errors any more then they plan to tell the truth that the Apostolic Church never practiced tithing. Tithe is a very false doctrine in the church, and yet, the SDA organization is based on this OC doctrine, which was not allowed in the church.

The Fraud of Church Tithing
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=239

The SDA’s are full of false doctrine, some of which makes large amounts of money for them. The fact that no one in the world supports their strange views about the IJ or Ellen White only makes them think they are better than all others, when it should send the opposite signal. They are as stubborn and wrong as the Jews and for the same reasons.

Recently, the SDA’s went so far as to find a clone of Dr. Ford; Herb Kersten is a talented Australian speaker who claimed he could prove the IJ to be Gospel doctrine.

We had a short online debate and then he ran away in defeat, like all SDA’s when confronted by someone who knows the facts.

IJ Discussion: Tom Norris & Herb Kersten
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1173

Regardless how awful and false the doctrine, the SDA leaders refuse to repent, much less embrace correct New Covenant doctrine. They are stuck in the Old Covenant by choice, trapped in a legalistic, 19th century mindset that prevents them from understanding Gospel doctrine correctly. They love the law more than the Gospel. No one should follow them to hell.

2Cor. 3:7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

2Cor. 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

2Cor. 3:9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

2Cor. 3:10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.

2Cor. 3:11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

2Cor. 3:12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,

2Cor. 3:13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.

2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

2Cor. 3:15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;

2Cor. 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

How To Transition from OC to NC Adventism

1. Search For Truth. The Advent Movement is based on the ongoing search for Bible truth. The Pioneers were not afraid of asking the hard questions and challenging religious tradition. This is how they were able to correct the error for the entire 19th century church about the 2nd Coming, eventually changing what every denomination once taught about eschatology.

To question tradition and search for doctrinal truth is the proper attitude for all that seek Eternal Life.

What does Jesus teach is truth? What does Jesus teach about the Judgment and the end of the world? What does Jesus teach about the Sabbath and church organization? This is what matters most for those who want to understand the Gospel and receive Eternal Life.

2. Take Personal Responsibility.

All that seek Eternal Life must do so individually, and with the full intent to follow Christ and what he teaches. No one is saved in a group, or because they are members of a certain denomination.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

We will all have to answer, individually, to Christ at the Judgment of the 2nd Coming.

Rom. 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

The understanding of the Gospel is our individual responsibility. Those that depend upon the Pastor, or any denominational interpretation are being very naïve and foolish. We all have a direct link to God through Christ and his Word, even as all are Priests of God.

Rom. 12:5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

1Cor. 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

1Cor. 12:27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.

Only the names written in the Book of Life count for anything. There is no salvation for having ones name on any church records. Many whose names are recorded there will not be saved because they refused the genuine Gospel of Christ.

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Phil. 4:3 Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

All must answer for themselves on the Day of Judgment. Those who have been so foolish to follow a false Christ, - will not receive Eternal Life. Only those who follow the genuine Christ of the NT will be saved.

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.

Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”

3. Repent and stop following Old Covenant SDA doctrines: For those that understand the Gospel, there can be NO more tithing or support for the IJ. NO more thinking Ellen White has doctrinal authority. NO OC Sabbath keeping or thinking Sunday laws will start the Time of Trouble, etc.

It is time to understand the genuine Gospel of the NT, which includes the active and reformed NC Sabbath of Christ, which is unknown to the SDA’s.

SDA Sabbath vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

Eternal Life is only for those that follow Christ.

John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Matt. 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Matt. 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

4. Learn the Gospel Issues, including the solution, which is Adventist Reform. Today, there is so much information Online that there is no excuse for anyone not to understand the current debate within the SDA church, or the solution.

Ellen White
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=225

The Fraud of Traditional Adventism
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=23
5

The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227

Adventist Reform
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Reform.htm

5. Be Ready for Persecution. All should know that the SDA church does not allow correction or challenge, much less free Speech. So don’t expect your Pastor to even discuss Adventist Reform. He is not allowed to do anything other than pretend that the SDA’s have no errors or false doctrines.

Understand that if any church worker admits that the doctrine of tithe is false, or the IJ, --that is the end of their career. So your Pastor will not be honest with you or with anyone else. He is nothing but a hired hand controlling the members on behalf of a corrupt hierarchy that misunderstands the Gospel.

John 10:12 “He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.

The Denomination controls the church with a heavy hand, so much so that there is a (once secret) computer system that contains files of every worker and member, as well as the critics who question their authority, doctrine, or leadership.

So everyone is being watched by the paranoid and controlling SDA’s. The moment you stand up to question doctrine, you are a marked person. If you continue to speak out for Adventist Reform, you will be shown the door so that others are not affected.

This is the way of the modern SDA’s. They will quickly turn and attack anyone that questions their views. Only those willing to surrender their minds to the church can stomach such an anti-Gospel environment.

John 15:20 “Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you;

Let all understand that the SDA’s are preparing for another purge, like the one that took place after Glacier View. If you don’t agree with the IJ and their other errors, they will show you the door, because they are not going to admit they are wrong about anything. They seek to control and brainwash all around them, like a mindless cult.

Instead of the SDA’s looking to find more truth, they are spending vast resources to defend their errors and spin doctrinal fabrications for the unsuspecting.

They will remove those who disagree. So first comes the development of a special computer program that tracks every member and church worker to see if they are paying tithe and being loyal to church doctrine. This will be followed by a purge of the local members who do not comply.

See: Membership Audit
http://www.adventistworld.org/article/1 … ve-process

SDA’s Monitor Members:
Church Software Architect, Dies

Used technology to bolster Adventist ministry, mission (Posted April 9, 2013)
http://www.adventistreview.org/article/ … o-his-rest

Let all understand the modern SDA church is organized in the same hierarchical manner as the Roman Catholic Church. Unlike the apostolic church, the SDA’s own and control every local church and thus they can control doctrine by virtue of their ownership and legal authority. Such a system is against the Gospel and the specific teachings of Christ.

Mark 10:42 Calling them to Himself, Jesus *said to them, “You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them.

Mark 10:43 “But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant;

Mark 10:44 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all.

Mark 10:45 “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

The NT only supports a congregational church system. Not what the SDA’s have erected for themselves. No wonder the leaders don’t want to embrace Reform. It would require wholesale changes, which they do not want any more than did the Jews who also had the same type of organizational system.

Gal. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

6. Find Gospel Fellowship. Those who pray and search for Gospel truth will not be satisfied in the SDA church where both the law and Gospel are very misunderstood.

Much of what the SDA’s teach is false, starting with their view of the Sabbath, which was NEVER practiced in the apostolic church as the SDA’s teach.

There is a long list of errors that must be corrected, including the error about tithe and church organization, but such reform is not allowed within any local SDA church.

Consequently, the time will come when those who seek Gospel truth will have to leave the SDA’s and form their own local church. Many taking their pastors with them.

This is what took place in the 1st century as those Jews that embraced Christ mixed with their fellow Jews who followed their leaders and rejected the Gospel. The two sides could not co-exist for very long, nor should they.

Thus, Paul was thrown out of the synagogue for promoting Gospel Reform within Judaism. The Old and New Covenants cannot harmonize or ever make nice. They are opposed to each other.

Gal. 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.

Gal. 4:23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.

Gal. 4:24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.

Gal. 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother…

Gal. 4:29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

The SDA’s are an Old Covenant paradigm, which explains why they are persecuting those of the New Covenant. This is normative and exactly what happens to any SDA that stands up for the Gospel. So be it. Better to be removed from those who embrace false doctrine than to follow them to hell.

Read the story about the genesis of the Corinthian Church. It started as a result of a debate in the synagogue over Jesus and the New Covenant. Those who supported the Old Covenant, which was the majority, threw out Paul and any that had sympathy for his New Covenant Gospel.

Acts 18:4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

Acts 18:5 But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ.

Acts 18:6 But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”

Acts 18:7 Then he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue.

Note what Paul did after he was banned from preaching Christ in the synagogue on Sabbath. He set up a competing venue, right next to the synagogue, owned by one of his converts. Here he preached the NC Gospel and even converted the “leader” of the synagogue to follow Christ and thus the church in Corinth was established. Paul stayed there for almost two years.

Acts 18:8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.

Acts 18:9 And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent;

Acts 18:10 for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.”

Acts 18:11 And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

In conclusion, stay close to the Word. Understand the NC and determine only to follow Christ and what he teaches about all things.

Do not let anyone, much less the SDA’s, define the Gospel for you. They don’t understand either the law or the Gospel correctly. Nor do they want to try. They are content with their Old Covenant Empire, even though it is crumbling for all to see.

If you want Eternal Life, you must understand the teachings of Christ for yourself and embrace them with both hands.

No one should depend on any denomination or the many so called religious experts that prance around and pretend they know Christ.

Few understand the Gospel correctly. Few have any idea what Jesus really teaches in the Gospels. But not those who will receive Eternal Life. They will know the Gospel of Christ and understand the difference between truth and error.

Matt. 10:16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.

Matt. 10:24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.

Matt. 10:25 “It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!

Matt. 10:26 “Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Adventists for Tomorrow

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