Tom, Are You a Seventh Day Adventist or not?

bob_2 · 07-02-11 4:36 pm

Expert: Tom Norris - 5/8/2011

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … is-SDA.htm

Question
Are You a Seventh Day Adventist or not?

Answer
Although I was raised, like all 20th century Adventists, as an Old Covenant, legalistic SDA, I am now a New Covenant SDA.

I have long ago repented for my Old Covenant views and false SDA doctrines.

Traditional, Takoma Park Adventism is full of error, myth, and historic manipulation. Thus the 28 Fundamentals are not to be viewed as correct or even honest. They are full of incorrect and legalistic doctrine like the IJ, Old Covenant Tithing and Sabbath keeping, as well as Jewish food laws, and the myth of abstinence, and even false hermeneutics.

There is a long list of SDA errors that must be corrected by anyone that understands the Gospel and church history correctly. While many are blind to the issues and the facts, I am not one of them. So I have no choice but to repudiate the many errors of Traditional, Old Covenant Adventism.

However, that does not mean that I do not embrace the genuine history or the doctrinal Fundamentals and eschatological mission that defines 7th day Adventism. I do. There is much truth in the Three Angels Messages, and none of it should be wasted.

So what am I?

Answer: I am a NEW COVENANT ADVENTIST!

....

bob_2 · 07-02-11 4:39 pm

Question for Tom:

1. Is New Covenant Adventism an official organization???

2. Where do you have your church membership, which congregation???

I'll take the short answer, if you don't mind Tom.

Last edited by bob_2 (07-02-11 4:40 pm)

cadge · 07-02-11 11:30 pm

LOL, another Indian having wandered off the reservation and just hasn't got his bearings yet. Seventh Day Advent-ism is what it is and if you are altering what their fundamentals proclaim, then you ain't one and just haven't awoken to the fact yet.

bob_2 · 07-03-11 2:30 am

I can dream like Tom does about changes can't I. I truly believe that NCT can be a template on SDAism. I am not saying worshipping on Saturday is wrong, just not required for salvation. When you read the 28 Fundies, Cadge, do you feel that all Adventist beliefs, all are salvific, I don't, I guess that's what keeps me hanging around. However I have been attending a church here in St. Louis, going to the Saturday, 6 pm, service in case someone raises issues about my membership, but I haven't run into too much to argue with them about, and the worship music is more my style, here is there website, give me your critique, Cadge :

http://gracestl.org/?p=1

Last edited by bob_2 (07-07-11 11:18 pm)

bob_2 · 07-05-11 1:35 am

Is that a denomination, New Covenant Adventist??? I don't think so!!!

bob · 07-06-11 10:01 am

Did you notice Tom didn't even mention ellen. (In case you are wondering I do not capitalize ellen. I also do not capitalize satan or any other name that I deem against scripture and the plan of salvation.) ellen supported the false tithing system Adventists use today. she supported the IJ and Israelite food laws.

What I have observed since I started posting here is that Tom gives ellen full support and contends that the hierarchy of the church have put here in bad light. I contend that ellen has enough printed material available to convict her a thousand times. The Bible talks about the followers of Moses having a veil covering their eyes and I contend the followers of ellen are almost completely blind and cannot see but very little.

tom_norris · 07-07-11 9:30 am

Bob2, a NCT supporter asked:

1. Is New Covenant Adventism an official organization???
2. Where do you have your church membership, which congregation???

Tom said: NCA is not organized, as yet, nor is it official. But it is being articulated in an organized manner, and explained under the brand of “Adventist Reform.”

More than that, Adventist Reform claims to have located the next Advent Message, which is known as the 4th Angels Message, which includes the final doctrine of the 7th day Gospel Sabbath.

For the record, my membership is at Capitol Memorial SDA Church in Wash DC. This is the church where Richard Fredericks was an associate pastor for a number of years, and where Jack Sequeira was senior pastor.

However, I seldom go for obvious reasons of doctrinal conflict.

Cadge said: LOL, another Indian having wandered off the reservation and just hasn't got his bearings yet.

Tom said: The church is not immune to change, and there has been much over the centuries. Such change will not stop until the 2nd Coming, even as the last change will be the most dramatic, causing great division and debate.

So what is the church supposed to look like today? No one can agree. But guess what, the last age of the church is the worst. No denomination today has “their Gospel bearings straight.” They are all naked and blind, falling in one ditch after another. Thus Christ condemns the status quo.

Moreover, Adventism was born at a time when organized religion was in great flux. Their doctrinal reforms were greatly needed, but they soon lost their way. And they have yet to get their bearings straight, as evidenced by multiple schisms and continued irrelevance and corruption.

This is why Adventist Reform is needed. The status quo is not sustainable or functional. Many SDA doctrines are not true, and so too is much of their history fabricated and suppressed. Their mission has long ago been aborted. Money is all that matters to this billion-dollar charade.

Cadge said: Seventh Day Advent-ism is what it is and if you are altering what their fundamentals proclaim, then you ain't one and just haven't awoken to the fact yet.

Tom said: Adventism has always been changing. It was never static in the 19th century, or in the 20th.

Moreover, Adventist Reform supports the genuine fundamentals, even the very same “pillars” that form the 1st Angels Message in Miller’s day. The real problem is that the modern leaders no longer know or support the historic fundamentals that define SDA theology. Nor do they care.

All Adventists should protest the false views and corruption of the SDA church, demanding that the leaders tell the truth about 1844, 1888, and Ellen White.

Adventism is not what the apologists claimed, nor did they get much of anything correct, especially anything to do with Ellen White or the Gospel. So the SDA’s are not what they claim to be, nor do they correctly teach their own fundamentals.

So it is time for the entire Adventist Community to turn their backs on their incompetent and dishonest leaders, and move on without them. This is how the church started, and what the church has done many times. This is the pattern of Gospel Reform.

The Advent Movement is not to be held back by the double-talking SDA leaders. It is their choice to remain behind, pretending the status quo is approved by heaven. They must be left behind by those following truth.

Bob2 said: I can dream like Tom does about changes can't I. I truly believe that NCT can be a template on SDAism.

Tom said: NCT is not a dream, only a nightmare. It is a template of error for all that want to ignore the teachings of Jesus and misread the NT. It is great heresy.

In addition, NCT has no coherent eschatology, nor does any denomination support this theological double-talk. So it is worthless, except to underscore how confused everyone is about the law and the Gospel. It is no solution to anything.

Bob2 said: I am not saying worshipping on Saturday is wrong, just not required for salvation.

Tom said: Let’s be clear: I am not saying that there is salvation in any form of Sabbath keeping, regardless if it is on Sunday or the 7th day.

However, it is wrong for anyone to embrace the passive, OC Sabbath of Moses, regardless of the day. Anyone that does this, or tries to do it on Sunday, is following great error.

Both the Sunday keepers and the SDA’s have the wrong understanding of the Sabbath. They are both acting like the Pharisees who became so outraged at Jesus Reformed Sabbath teaching that they decided to kill him in order to protect their (Sabbath) law.

Both the Sunday keepers and the 7th day Sabbatarians have embraced the OC, non-working, “schoolmaster Sabbath” of Moses. This is the wrong Sabbath for the church.

When the doctrine of the Gospel is correctly and fully comprehended, so too will the Gospel Sabbath.

When the Gospel words of Jesus are correctly understood, so too his active, reformed, 7th day Sabbath of the church.

Bob2 said: When you read the 28 Fundies, Cadge, do you feel that all Adventist believe all are salvific, I don't, I guess that's what keeps me hanging around.

Tom said: Most of what the SDA’s teach is wrong. The State of the Dead is one of their most correct doctrines, and so too the eschatological paradigm of the Three Angels Messages, which includes the 4th Angels Message. However, they don’t even understand their own eschatology correctly, much less the Sabbath or the Judgment, which are their two most featured doctrines.

It is the eschatology that keeps me around Adventism. This is where the action is for those living at the end of time. IMO, the Adventist Apocalyptic, including the 7 pillars that they contain, represent the correct path for the Laodicean Church. NCT has no such eschatological pedigree, nor does it have any support from the NT.

Bob2 said: Is that a denomination, New Covenant Adventist??? I don't think so!!!

Tom said: Those who start reforms in the church are not trying to launch new denominations. Luther was only trying to clean up some obvious errors, and so too the Wesley’s and even William Miller.

After the great disappointment, James and Ellen White, and Joseph Bates, did not set out to start a new denomination. They only became organized because Miller and Himes refused to consider any of their views at the 1845 Albany Conference.

Thus they were locked out of the planning and discussion about the future of the Advent Movement, even though they had some paradigm shifting solutions that would prove to be very effective. Treated so poorly, they had no choice but to start their own denomination in order to implement their views of the 3rd Angels Message, which eventually proved to be far more successful then anything the other Adventists promoted.

If Adventist Reform becomes organized, it will be for the very same reason. Because the Adventist leaders refused to address their many errors. They refuse to allow for fair, open, and honest debate about how to reform and save the self destructing Advent Movement. Glacier View proved this sad fact, and so too their reaction to Adventist Reform, which followed.

Unlike so many other critics, AR is designed to move the SDA’s forward within their own unique and special apocalyptic interpretations. It is not seeking to start something new or in any way diminish the theology or mission of the Advent Movement.

Rather, it is meant to transition the church from the dying and dysfunctional 3rd Angels Message to the final Advent Message, which is known as the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18.

If the leaders fail to repent of 1888 and 1980, and move forward to develop the 4th Angels Message, then a new organization must sponsor such a new denomination. Then those who want to follow truth, can do so, even as the work of the Advent Movement goes forward.

Bob said: Did you notice Tom didn't even mention ellen… ellen supported the false tithing system Adventists use today. She supported the IJ and Israelite food laws.

Tom said: Not fair or accurate. Ellen White is on the record as being a tithe rebel. Do some research (on this site) and educate yourself with the facts.

Moreover, she never claimed that the IJ was a pillar at all, as the modern church dishonestly teaches to this very day. No SDA in the 19th century ever took this radical and wrong view about the IJ as the Takoma Park apologists have done.

None of them ever declared the IJ to be a pillar from the 1st Angels Message. So let’s stop repeating official SDA myths and fiction shall we? This is the work of the SDA leaders and apologists. AR repudiates such false history and doctrine, and so too should all that are honest.

As for food laws, Ellen White made many errors of theology. But this is not news. There was plenty of error around in the 19th century, and so too today. Little has changed in that regard.

So it is time for everyone to get the facts straight and stop being held hostage by myths and lies from those in control of the 3rd Angels Message.

Bob said: What I have observed since I started posting here is that Tom gives ellen full support and contends that the hierarchy of the church have put here in bad light.

Tom said: Ellen White has my full support as an honest historical witness. She is an indispensible source about SDA doctrinal development. But that does not mean I support everything she taught, or that she was always correct.

However, Ellen White is not the problem. Rather, it is the White Estate. They have not been honest with her views or with church history. This is a documented fact that has never been refuted by anyone.

Bob said: I contend that ellen has enough printed material available to convict her a thousand times.

Tom said: Convict her of what? Being a sinner like the rest of us? We are all guilty in that manner.

Was she guilty of embracing false doctrine? Of course she was. But so too the apostles, both before and after the cross. And so too have we all made many mistakes about doctrine.

So we are all guilty of making mistakes and being wrong! Including Ellen White. She never said otherwise. Nor did she ever claim to be perfect or beyond correction.

Furthermore, Ellen White is not on trial. But the White Estate should be. They are the ones that need to be examined. They are the ones that have committed a massive fraud on the public and refuse to repent.

Bob said: The Bible talks about the followers of Moses having a veil covering their eyes and I contend the followers of ellen are almost completely blind and cannot see but very little.

Tom said: Yes, the SDA’s today are blinded by legalism and false doctrine. This is also how they were in Battle Creek and in Takoma Park. So they are not making much progress.

When Waggoner and Ellen White stood up in 1888 and tried to make Gospel Reforms, they were refuted by the leaders and exiled. Uriah Smith had a very thick vale over his face and thus he and the others could never understand the Gospel, but not so Ellen White. After 1888, she corrected her view of the law and the Gospel, only to have the White Estate suppress, hide, and misrepresent her improved views.

Today, the Pre-Advent Judgment of the Laodicean church is clear. Every church and denomination is guilty of false doctrine, not just the SDA’s. They are all blind to the Gospel and to the teachings of Christ. Thus Jesus calls for all to repent and reform, or be lost.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

It’s not just the SDA’s who are unable to see things clearly. All are guilty of false doctrine. All must repent. And they can all start with the Sabbath doctrine.

Here is universal error, without exception, that screams for correction and reform. Both the Sunday keepers and the SDA’s have the wrong view of the Sabbath and they must repent.

Here is a fundamental teaching of the church that underscores how confused and wrong everyone is about the law and the Gospel.

It is time for the active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath to be rediscovered by the Laodicean church, even as it is time for the Adventist Community to wake up and move forward to the 4th Angels Message.

It is time for 21st century Adventist Community to repent so that they can go forward and complete their eschatological mission.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 07-07-11 10:03 am

A voice crying in the wilderness!!! Do you have ravens supplying you sustenance???

bob · 07-07-11 12:15 pm

Tom wrote:

Tom said: Ellen White has my full support as an honest historical witness. She is an indispensible source about SDA doctrinal development. But that does not mean I support everything she taught, or that she was always correct.
However, Ellen White is not the problem. Rather, it is the White Estate. They have not been honest with her views or with church history. This is a documented fact that has never been refuted by anyone.

I agree she was a great historical source for the church Tom, but she was also a false prophet along with the other. Even you allude to that: "But that does not mean I support everything she taught, or that she was always correct."

Tom wrote:

Bob said: I contend that ellen has enough printed material available to convict her a thousand times.
Tom said: Convict her of what? Being a sinner like the rest of us? We are all guilty in that manner.
Was she guilty of embracing false doctrine? Of course she was. But so too the apostles, both before and after the cross. And so too have we all made many mistakes about doctrine.
So we are all guilty of making mistakes and being wrong! Including Ellen White. She never said otherwise. Nor did she ever claim to be perfect or beyond correction.

Convict her of being a false whatever she claimed to be. How can we follow her writings when we don't know when she was telling the truth or a lie? A "mistake" is one thing, but telling us it was her angel that gave her the information is another.

Oh yes she did claim her writings were "perfect". She claimed that whatever she wrote came from God. Don't try to cover for her. It only makes you look worse than she was.

Tom wrote:

Furthermore, Ellen White is not on trial. But the White Estate should be. They are the ones that need to be examined. They are the ones that have committed a massive fraud on the public and refuse to repent.

That's right, let her off the hook. She is only deceiving a bunch of SDAs who take her writings as Gospel. Such a little crime compared with the hierarchy.

Tom wrote:

Bob said: The Bible talks about the followers of Moses having a veil covering their eyes and I contend the followers of ellen are almost completely blind and cannot see but very little.
Tom said: Yes, the SDA’s today are blinded by legalism and false doctrine. This is also how they were in Battle Creek and in Takoma Park. So they are not making much progress.

Precisely why I left them.

tom_norris · 07-09-11 1:08 pm

Bob said: I agree she was a great historical source for the church Tom, but she was also a false prophet along with the other. Even you allude to that: "But that does not mean I support everything she taught, or that she was always correct."

Tom said: First off, Ellen White was not a prophet in the sense that the SDA’s have taught. Having the NC “gifts of the Spirit” is not the same as being an OT prophet, which is how the White Estate promotes her.

Read these articles about Ellen White and try to understand them. It appears you have done neither. Why not educate yourself on the facts?

Ellen G. White
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … hite-3.htm

Test-Is Ellen White a true or false Prophet
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … e-true.htm

EGW as Prophet
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … rophet.htm

Ellen White & Dr. Ford
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … hite-5.htm

Everyone in the Adventist Community needs to stop embracing the errors of the White Estate and recalibrate their thinking in regard to Ellen White and church history. The official spin is misleading, fabricated, and very wrong.

Tom Norris Interview
http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com … orris.html

Unofficial Response From White Estate
http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com … orris.html

Tom Norris Interview Discussion
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1204043197

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1237985658

Ellen White Not A Prophet

Ellen White was neither a true or false prophet. She was a young Methodist girl who received some spiritual gifts, as per the NT. Such gifts were not strange or unique in that time period, (and it is unfair to judge those of the past by today’s standards).

Then she married James White, a genius who went on to develop the SDA Empire. This union gave her great publicity and status, eventually turning her into a legend and icon for the SDA’s, full of myth and misdirection by the incompetent and dishonest White Estate.

So the real story of Ellen White must replace the fraud of the White Estate. Then the Adventist Community can deal with the facts, and repent for getting things so wrong. Only then will they understand the real Ellen White and know how to move forward.

Spiritual Gifts & Error

Furthermore, having such gifts does not make anyone immune from error or false doctrine. In fact, Peter, the head of the church, had many more spiritual gifts then Ellen White, but guess what? He fell into legalism and false doctrine anyway, as Galatians makes clear.

So is the apostle Peter a fraud and a liar? Has he been disowned by heaven for his errors? No, no, and no.

If the apostle Peter, the head of the church, can embrace gross Gospel error, and not be called a fraud and a false apostle as a result, then why the double standard?

Must Ellen White be judged more harshly than the apostles? Hardly. If so, why?

Contrary to the cultic views of the White Estate, Ellen White can have spiritual gifts and also be wrong about doctrine, (or anything else), at the same time, just like the apostles. And this is in fact what has happened.

Ellen White actually had visions about the Sabbath that she did not understand correctly, even as she had to change her views about the law and the Gospel and the Sabbath. So she was in error about many things for some time, even though she had spiritual gifts.

So what? This is normative.

This 20th century SDA nonsense about the tests of a Prophet, and Ellen White meeting these tests is ludicrous. Both the test, and the claim that she passed it, is absurd and unsupported by the NT. They had no such tests in Battle Creek, nor was Ellen White’s material ever read from the pulpit or placed in the SS Lessons. It was not allowed.

I understand why so many frustrated SDA’s take out their anger on Ellen White. It is easy to blame her for all the legalism and false doctrine that has ruined Adventism, but she is not the problem.

In fact, she tried to change SDA doctrine about the 2 Covenants and the Law in Galatians in 1888, but the leaders, led by the great legalist Uriah Smith, would not repent or admit any error. She even told the leaders that she had problems with tithe and refused to follow it. Too bad her real views have been suppressed by the White Estate.

The White Estate has done a great disservice to Ellen White and to the Adventist Community by covering up what happened in 1888 and allowing others to promote fiction and diversion as truth. They had no right to hide her true views, or to promote the theology of Uriah Smith, her theological nemesis, as if it had the support from Ellen White.

Ellen White hated Smith’s legalism, even as she pushed to have him terminated from the Review for his awful theology. Smith died, not as a hero, but as someone who had totally misunderstood the Gospel and the meaning of Adventism. More than any other man, he was responsible for the tragic outcome of 1888, which almost destroyed the SDA denomination forcing them to retreat from Battle Creek to Takoma Park.

Uriah Smith Resurrected in the White Estate

At the turn of the century, Uriah Smith, and his Traditional SDA theology became marginalized and even hated in Battle Creek. The new Gospel theology that had been unleashed during the 1888 debates had spread throughout the Denomination and many SDA’s rejected Traditional Adventism as a result.

Uriah Smith was a dying breed. He had been abandoned by most all but the most legalistic. Even Ellen White had become his enemy along with Canright, Waggoner, Kellogg, and Jones, the man that replaced him as editor of the Review, and then left the Denomination.

A dozen years after 1888, most all of Battle Creek came to the conclusion that SDA theology was full of error. Smith and his eschatology was pushed aside, spurned by many, including Ellen White, which is why the Denomination officially rejected and fired him from the Review. With such a sad ending, one would think that Uriah Smith would go down in SDA history as a pariah and heretic. But this is not what happened.

In the 20th century, after Ellen White was dead, Smith’s theology made a comeback. In fact, his views that Ellen White so detested was surprisingly championed by the White Estate, even as they hid thousands of Ellen White’s documents that showed her repudiating Smith’s theology.

As a consequence of this massive suppression, the modern leaders were able to re-invent Smith’s awful legalism and promote it in the name of Ellen White. This fraud promoted the same basic errors that had almost destroyed the church in Battle Creek, and thus the White Estate has positioned the church for a repeat of the 1888 catastrophe.

The Takoma Park apologists even took the trouble to invent more false doctrine that Smith never embraced, such as the popular 20th century myth that the IJ is a pillar in the 1st Angels Message. This was never a position of Smith’s, even though he was an avid supporter of the IJ.

The Takoma Park version of Traditional Adventism was loaded with many theological and historical errors, which eventually became fuel for the debates of the 1960’s and 1970’s that led directly to Glacier View and its sad aftermath of division and schism.

So history has repeated itself. But few understand this history correctly. Glacier View was a repeat of 1888. But few know this fact because the church has covered up and hidden the Battle Creek history -because it condemns them and their awful theology that belongs to Uriah Smith, the doctrinal enemy of Ellen White. This is why they have no intention of confessing their 1888 cover up and telling the truth. It would make them look too evil. So they pretend they are innocent and pretend that Ellen White supports TA, when neither of these points are true.

The White Estate has long ago made the decision to protect their views and reputation, rather than admit what they have done and correct the record. They would rather allow the myths and errors about Ellen White to remain in the public domain instead of telling the truth and showing her real positions about the law and the Gospel, the Two Covenants, and the IJ.

Thus, Glacier View officially defended, not Ellen White’s view of the Judgment, law, or the Gospel, but the legalism of Smith, the man that opposed Ellen White during the 1888 debates. A man that became such a heretic in Battle Creek that he had to be fired from the Review for his legalism.

Ellen White Does Not Support Traditional Adventism as the modern leaders have taught all these years. While she did before 1888, things changed dramatically after that time. Which is why they covered up and hid so many of her later writings as opposed to the earlier ones.

What a tragedy that the leaders were so dishonest and criminal minded as to deceive the entire Adventist Community about such important points of church history and theology. It is outrageous and almost beyond comprehension. What has happened will not stand, even though the church is committed to this fraud.

Let all understand that Ellen White does not support Uriah Smith’s legalistic theology, or what we call today Traditional Adventism. She would never have approved of Glacier View, much less the absurd policy of pluralism that followed.

So forget this good prophet / bad prophet game of the modern SDA’s. The SDA tests of a prophet are worthless and wrong, and so too is this idea that Ellen White is like an OT prophet or NT apostle. She is neither.

Thus it is time for a new and truthful view about Ellen White to replace the manipulation and fiction from the White Estate. That place is a den of iniquity that needs major reform. It is a criminal enterprise that will not get away with what they have done. And I have made this clear to them.

Bob said: Convict her of being a false whatever she claimed to be.

Tom said: Ellen White claimed to be a Christian. She was not a false Christian as you charge. She was a very sincere Methodist, motivated to follow Jesus from her youth. As she grew older, she dedicated her life to serve the Gospel and the church.

Thus it is unfair and slanderous to pretend she was some kind of charlatan or fraud. This is simply not true. It is outrageous slander from those that do not know what they are talking about. Shameful.

Bob said: How can we follow her writings when we don't know when she was telling the truth or a lie? A "mistake" is one thing, but telling us it was her angel that gave her the information is another.

Tom said: Ha! First off, no one can really “follow her writings” today because the White Estate has so contaminated and manipulated them into a confusing fraud that misrepresents Ellen White’s views on SDA doctrine and church history. This is the greatest problem facing the SDA’s. If they can’t tell the truth about Ellen White and Uriah Smith, they are doomed, and deservedly so.

Only if you have been in the White Estate, and know the real facts of what has been hidden all these years, can you “follow her writings.” Because I am the man that discovered this hidden stash in the White Estate and in the Denomination’s Archives many years ago, I know what I am talking about.

This is why I have gone public to condemn the White Estate and expose what they have done. The Adventist Community should no longer allow themselves to be deceived and brainwashed by the White Estate and the rest of the church’s propaganda machine.

The facts have been found and no one from the White Estate or the church has dared to step forward to officially refute what Tom Norris has been saying in public for more than a decade. Why? Because there is no defense for what has happened. The White Estate has been caught hiding THOUSANDS of Ellen White documents that tell a very different story from what they have been teaching.

Was this an accident? Did they misplace all this material accidentally? No. The White Estate is a criminal enterprise, which must be brought to justice for the good of Ellen White’s reputation and for the good of the Advent Movement that she loved so dearly. All should demand that the White Estate confess what they have done and correct the record. All should hold the White Estate’s feet to the fire.

As for her lying? That would be something that the church leaders do today on a regular basis. The White Estate is a den of lies, piled high to the ceiling. Even their books are fiction, when they claim they are true. So there is plenty of lies being told by the SDA’s, but Ellen White was neither a dishonest person nor a liar.

However, Arthur White was very dishonest. Glacier View was his high water mark. He was a great liar and con man. If anyone wants to get angry with Ellen White, let him or her first put the blame where it belongs, on Arthur White. He is the most dishonest and incompetent man in modern SDA history. He is the one that invented and promoted a fraudulent version of Ellen White so that he could rehabilitate the errors of Uriah Smith. While he succeeded for a time, the net result was the present self-destruction of the SDA church.

In order to appreciate Ellen White, one must first repudiate the White Estate’s definition of her and her beliefs. Until you do this, you will never understand what she is all about.

Bob2 said: Oh yes she did claim her writings were "perfect". She claimed that whatever she wrote came from God. Don't try to cover for her. It only makes you look worse than she was.

Tom said: So not only do you want to slander her, you want to frame her as well? Show me where she claimed perfection? I can show you where she repudiated such a view, but you can show nothing to support your claim. So why make it? Why repeat rumor, or even worse, make up things?

There is no reason to keep hating the Ellen White of our youth. She was only a delusion, a fraud, created by a handful of Takoma Park legalists to use as a weapon against their opponents. What we were all taught about Ellen White was not true or correct.

Stop pretending otherwise. Stop attacking what you do not understand and what you cannot even define correctly.

Bob2 said: That's right, let her off the hook. She is only deceiving a bunch of SDA’s who take her writings as Gospel. Such a little crime compared with the hierarchy.

Tom said: Once again you are confusing the White Estate with Ellen White. I have no intention of letting the White Estate off the hook. I know what they have done and I can prove it. Arthur White was a criminal, and so too most of the others on the board. The White Estate is a criminal enterprise. They have been conducting the largest publishing fraud in history. And they are not going to get away with it.

Bob2 said: Precisely why I left them. (Legalism & False Doctrine).

Tom said: Me too! I left the SDA’s after Glacier View, and I have no regrets. You could not pay me to support them with tithe or any other means. They are full of false doctrine and corruption, and they have no intention of repenting.

Perhaps you did not understand this fact? I don’t recommend that anyone support or join the SDA church unless and until they repent and embrace Adventist Reform. If that never happens, then a new Advent denomination will be forced into existence, and the work of the Three Angels Messages can continue, minus the SDA Pharisees who repudiate the Gospel.

However, the many errors of Adventism does not mean that the Advent Movement is moot and unnecessary. No. No. The completion of the Three Angels Messages must still go forward.

The 4th Angles Message is the next stop for the Adventist Train.

Eschatology moves forward and so too our increased understanding of the Gospel, prophecy, and the NC Sabbath. The world will come to an end, and thus the church needs to acknowledge this prophetic fact and prepare for what is about to happen.

It is time for all naked and wretched Laodiceans to repent, and get dressed for action.

It is time for the Advent Movement to wake up and go forward.

Rejoice and be thankful that such a path has appeared.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 07-09-11 2:06 pm

Not surprisingly, Tom quotes himself of what REFORM he is calling the SDA church to. Not unlike his online website:

http://www.adventistreform.com/OpenLetter.html

In this open letter, given to Mr. Goldstein, at the General Conference, Tom does not do more than generalize what REFORM is needed other than in GENERAL TERMS. Some of us here at ATomorrow.net have tried to get Tom to be more specific, but it is like, if he spells it out without consultation with him, he fears that his arguments, whatever they are, will appear to be believed by one or two men, him and Des Ford. I doubt that will happen until he specifically points out the GROSS ERRORS will anyone take him serrious. As I review his website, looking for details, and others that believe as he does, who could give more specifics, their is nothing. Tom, your open letter gave no details. I have asked for details here as has Sirje and Elaine. If we can't see it, you expect the BIG GUNS to see a neccessity with one man"crying in the wilderness"?

tom_norris · 07-16-11 2:30 pm

Bob2 said: Not surprisingly, Tom quotes himself of what REFORM he is calling the SDA church to. Not unlike his online website:
http://www.adventistreform.com/OpenLetter.html

Tom replied: You are not being responsive to the points that were just posted about Ellen White and the White Estate. Why can’t you stick to the topic at hand? Either refute the points made with credible evidence, or admit your errors and change your positions, but don’t go off in another direction.

Why the diversion? Why the inability to deal with the very important issues about Ellen White and the White Estate that we were discussing?

Bob2 said: In this open letter, given to Mr. Goldstein, at the General Conference, Tom does not do more than generalize what REFORM is needed other than in GENERAL TERMS.

Tom said: Bob, Bob, Bob, this old Adventist Reform web site needs to get fixed up. This Open Letter to Clifford Goldstein was done long ago, as part of the discussion on AToday and then later on JR’s ATomorrow Forum.

A lot of what was taking place back then, by me, was an attempt to get the leaders involved in a serious the discussion about AR. But they were not honest men, and thus they refused to enter into any debate that would only condemn them.

Moreover, the goal of AR was, and still is, clearly articulated on JR’s old site, and this site, and the All Expert site. Here is what was posted on the Adventist Reform website a number of years ago:

“In fact, the Adventist Reform website was developed because the leaders refused to openly and honestly deal with the issues. They refused to tell the truth to the Church. It was time for all SDA’s to know their own history and to understand how their leaders have horribly misled and deceived them about Ellen White, 1888, the Investigative Judgment, and Glacier View.”
----------------------------------------------------------

This is rather specific, is it not? And there were more specifics given. So stop saying there are only general reforms being promoted. That is not true.

Furthermore, over at JR’s site the discussion about AR matured to the point whereby a 10- point Reform Agenda was developed, which soon grew to 12-points.

12 Challenges
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1222173098

These are very specific and paradigm shifting details, and we all had a great laugh as Clifford Goldstein refused to deal with any of the points. And to this day, no SDA apologist or official had been able to face up to any point on this Reform Agenda. They all run away, unable to defend Traditional or Hierarchical Adventism.

1844 Made Simple- 10 –point Reform Agenda
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … #POST72744

Posted by Tom Norris on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 8:55 am:

Clifford Goldstein and the IJ
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1013659183

1844 Made Simple
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1166507859

If you read closely, the Open Letter was given to Clifford Goldstein so that he could give it to Bill Johnsson, the Review Editor. All this was taking place for the benefit of those online at Atoday that were watching.

But the leaders did not want any part of Reform, much less if it involved telling the truth about the fraud in the White Estate and an apology to Dr. Ford. So they ignored the call for honesty and Reform, and refused to come online to discuss any issues. And to this very day, not one SDA apologist or official has agreed to have a public discussion about the issues. The SDA leaders were exposing themselves as wolves, not sheep. They are fully corrupt.

Then Bill Johnsson shut down the AToday Forum. It went dark because the GC leaders did not want to hear any discussion about their errors, nor did they want to discuss any doctrinal reforms. There were plenty of specifics given during this interesting, post Glacier View time period.

In fact, there were too many specifics for the leaders to stomach, so they ignored Adventist Reform, even as they watched it gain traction and take hold in spite of their efforts to stamp it out.

Censorship and stonewalling was the leaders response to any that would dare suggest Reform. Who is anyone to challenge their right to rule? Ha! These wolves have no right to do anything but repent, and they are too blind and wicked to even do that. Thus Censorship, propaganda, and stonewalling are how the modern SDA leaders stay in power. Just like the 1st century Jews.

Here is more of the Open Letter, which was ignored by the leaders:

“On September 19, 2001 an open letter was hand-delivered to Clifford Goldstein at the General Conference in Silver Spring, Maryland. At this pre-scheduled meeting, Mr. Goldstein accepted the letter from Tom Norris and agreed to deliver it to Bill Johnsson, Editor of the Review.

“In addition, the letter was posted on the Atoday website so that the entire Adventist community could view the Leaders' reaction and participate in the discussion. In fact, many people were watching to see how the Leaders would react in this dramatically new and dangerous, post 9/11 world.”

“Nevertheless, the hierarchical leaders refused to acknowledge the need for Adventist reform. They wanted no discussion about such things, nor did the leaders want to be held accountable for the great damage caused to this movement. In short, the leaders hoped all this talk of accountability and church reform would not be taken seriously and they wanted it stopped.”

“So the hierarchical SDA leaders ignored this public call for Reform, choosing instead to reply with censorship. That is why the Atoday Forum website was shut down. The leaders took this action because they did not want the people to discuss such divisive issues. They wanted to set the agenda and control the discussion.”

“The leaders had no intention of dealing openly or honestly with the serious problems that plague this Church. Moreover, the leaders did not want to be held accountable for their gross mismanagement and fraud that had been uncovered at the General Conference. Therefore, they have been purposefully running from this discussion about Adventist Reform ever since, pretending that all is well, when everyone knows that this is not true.”
----------------------------------------------------------------

So Bob, there were plenty of specifics as well as a call for a comprehensive plan to Reform. Listen to the point of the Open Letter.

Where is the Plan?

The Adventist pioneers had a well-documented eschatological plan that spoke powerfully to Bible-minded Protestants in the Nineteenth Century. They never expected our evil world to last this long. But this unexpected delay has left the church unprepared for the 21st century.

No doubt the pioneers would be stunned to see our dangerous world that seems poised on the brink of Apocalypse. But they would be even more surprised to witness our theological confusion and lack of prophetic vision. What would they say to us about our loss of mission and message? What would they say about all the division and anger? The pioneers would be very disappointed.

Today, the Church must develop a Strategic Plan that will unify the various factions without doing harm to the fundamental doctrines of historic Adventism. This plan must correct faulty doctrine, update the apocalyptic charts, and prepare the Church to survive the great time of trouble that Adventists have always predicted would come upon the world.

http://www.adventistreform.com/OpenLetter.html

Little has changed in the past 12 years. The Denomination has no plan or credible eschatology. Thus they are still irrelevant, self-destructing and unable to grow. The leaders blindly go about their worthless Sabbath rituals, seemingly unaware of their wrong and fatal course. Like the 1st century Jews, the SDA’s have repudiated the Gospel in order to protect their legalistic, OC delusions and save face. Their doom is assured if they do not soon repent and embrace Gospel Reform.

Bob2 said: Some of us here at ATomorrow.net have tried to get Tom to be more specific,

Tom replied: Wow! I am not sure it is possible to be any more specific. How many times do you need to hear the same points before they sink in? Often times, when it comes to understanding the Gospel, the human mind is challenged beyond its seeming ability to comprehend. This is normal and sad. Listen to Jesus on this point:

John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

Mark 4:11 And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,

Mark 4:12 so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.”

Mark 4:13 And He *said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How will you understand all the parables?

It is one thing for Jesus critics to misunderstand and refuse to honestly comprehend the issues, but another altogether when his own disciples can’t grasp his words. It has never been easy to understand the Gospel correctly, and anyone that says otherwise is not paying attention to the NT.

Luke 9:43 And they were all amazed at the greatness of God. But while everyone was marveling at all that He was doing, He said to His disciples,

Luke 9:44 “Let these words sink into your ears; for the Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.”

Luke 9:45 But they did not understand this statement, and it was concealed from them so that they would not perceive it; and they were afraid to ask Him about this statement.

Matt. 16:11 “How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

Mark 9:31 For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, “The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later.”

Mark 9:32 But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him.

The Gospel is very hard to understand. Even those involved in the development of the church, who were taught the Gospel by Jesus, misunderstood and got it wrong.

What about us today? We are so far removed from the 1st century that it is no wonder that the Laodicean period of the church is the worst of all. No wonder the Gospel is unknown, and not even one denomination teaches the Sabbath correctly.

Not Enough Specifics?

There are legions of detailed discussions and articles online, written by Tom Norris and based on the Gospel advances of Dr. Ford. I find it hard to believe there is not enough information online to explain the agenda of Adventist Reform. Perhaps you are not paying attention? Or more likely, we are witnessing just how difficult it is to understand Gospel truth. It is much more difficult to understand than many realize. Sad but true.

After answering thousands of questions and discussing the issues online for more than 10 years, how is it possible that there is not enough specifics about Adventist Reform?

At this point, I doubt anyone can ask a novel and new question. There are only repeat questions and repeat answers. And even then, many are still stunned and unable to comprehend the magnitude and necessity of Adventist Reform.

Tom Norris has answered hundreds of questions about 1844, 1888, Ellen White, Tithe, the Sabbath, eschatology, and on and on… what specifics do you lack?

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … _70484.htm

Moreover, there is a 12-point Reform Agenda that was developed, after the Open Letter was sent to Goldstein. The idea was to get the church leaders involved in finding real solutions, and to work out such reforms together. But the leaders think they need no reform, much less any correction or repentance. They have gone corrupt for all to see.

Here is the 12 Point Reform Agenda:

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1222173098

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Reform.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … form-2.htm

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=234

Bob2 said: but it is like, if he spells it out without consultation with him, he fears that his arguments, whatever they are, will appear to be believed by one or two men, him and Des Ford.

Tom said: This is absurd. I have been clearly and repeatedly explaining the history, errors, and necessary reforms that will save the Advent Movement. This material is all over the net, and thousands have read it with gratitude, thankful that someone has finally explained why Adventism is so convoluted and full of contradiction and error, as well as some genuine truth. Why can’t you understand it?

Bob, let me make this real simple for you and any others that are having a hard time trying to understand Adventist Reform. It all starts with Ellen White.

The SDA’s must come to grips with what really happened in 1888, and stop covering up the most important period in Ellen White’s life. They must face up to the real reason why their Battle Creek Empire was destroyed, and why their present Empire is repeating this same pattern of Gospel debate and self-destruction.

Ellen White is where Gospel Reform starts in the SDA church. Telling the truth about the 1888 Gospel debates, where Ellen White and Uriah Smith became lifelong enemies, will change everything for the modern SDA’s. Including the fact that Glacier View was a farce that must be repudiated. If this point about the fraud in the White Estate is incomprehensible, then you will never understand Adventist Reform or church history correctly.

Bob2 said: I doubt that will happen until he specifically points out the GROSS ERRORS will anyone take him serious.

Tom sighed and replied: So you think I am unable to show where the SDA’s have made specific errors? Wow! I don’t think Goldstein or anyone would agree with that statement. What do you think I have been doing online for so many years?

Why do you think the AToday web site was shut down?

Answer: Because Tom Norris was pointing out the errors of Tithe Paying, and many other things in the church and making the leaders look foolish and wrong in the process. None of the apologists could refute the evidence put forth and no one will ever be able to defend the doctrine of NC Tithing, or the IJ, abstinence, etc because there are no such doctrines in the church.

Of course the leaders tried to cover up their errors and silence the discussion that condemned them. This is how they act, like wolves, not like sheep. But there were no complaints that there was not enough material or that Adventist Reform was not specific enough.

IJ Defeated

Furthermore, why do you think there is no longer a big discussion about the IJ? That doctrine was destroyed in past discussions. Dr. Ford gave it a mortal wound at Glacier View, and then Tom Norris came along and made sure the beast was dead.

Those that still embrace Traditional Adventism know better than to try and defend such error here. They saw what happened to Goldstein, and others, and those threads are still online whenever they forget.

TA is dead. It cannot be defended. But neither can the proposed antidote called NCT, which provided a temporary refuge for those fleeing the errors of the IJ. But it too is deficient and wrong.

This is why the present discussion features NCT, and why there is a whole section called NCT on this Forum. For which I am glad.

New Covenant Theology - Bob Sands
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=12

The error of NCT has not been sufficiently addressed, as it needs to be. This is what many former SDA’s that followed Dr. Ford’s correct theology embraced. However, Dr. Ford correctly denounced NCT, even as he continued to uphold the validity of a 7th day, Gospel Sabbath.

This confused many. At least until Tom Norris came along and interviewed Dr. Ford and explained the meaning and significance of Dr. Ford’s Gospel Reforms.

So Adventist Reform not only refutes Traditional Adventism, it also repudiates NCT. Why? Because neither TA nor NCT are valid or correct…and because there is a better path.

The Advent Movement is not to be taken lightly, much less dismissed by the SDA Community. There is great truth in this unfolding eschatological paradigm, including the fact that there is to be a great correction of the Sabbath doctrine at the end of time.

It turns out that the SDA’s were correct on this point all along. Too bad they misunderstood the law and the Gospel as well as the NC Sabbath doctrine. But now we know better. The final doctrine of the Sabbath has emerged for all to see.

The Reformed 7th day Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

We also know that the end of the world was not thought (by the SDA’s) to take place during the 3rd Angels Message, rather, there was a 4th and final Gospel Message that would arrest the attention of the world and prepare the church for the Tribulation.

So there is another, corrected, Advent Message that must be developed and promoted. Now. Which means that this is no time to try and defend TA or NCT.

NCT will not lead to the final Advent Message. Neither will Traditional Adventism. But this is where the Advent Movement must go. Forward to the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18. This is fundamental to genuine Adventist eschatology and Reform.

So Bob, I suggest you read the 12- point Reform Agenda. It is very specific about which “gross errors” need to be corrected. Why don’t you read this list of Reforms instead of pretending they don’t exist?

Bob2 said: As I review his website, looking for details, and others that believe as he does, who could give more specifics, their is nothing. Tom, your open letter gave no details.

Tom replied: After I started the Adventist Reform web site, I never had the time to fix it up or complete it. I was so busy promoting Adventist Reform on the ATomorrow Forum’s and the All Expert site that there has never been time to answer all the questions, much less set up and manage a web site.

The demand for Adventist Reform is overwhelming. But Dr. Ford is retired and Tom Norris can only do so much on a part time basis. So we do what we can.

Regardless, a clear doctrinal path has emerged for the Advent Movement to follow. And it does not include the IJ, or OC Sabbath keeping or Tithing. But it does feature the genuine 7th day Gospel Sabbath of the NT, a stunning new doctrine that condemns the entire Laodicean Church.

This is what the Advent Movement should be doing right now. Developing the 4th Angels Message. But they must first understand what went wrong with the 3rd Angels Message, and why, and then repent.

Bob2 said: I have asked for details here as has Sirje and Elaine. If we can't see it, you expect the BIG GUNS to see a necessity with one man "crying in the wilderness"?

Tom said: The details you seek have been provided over and over. And so too the answers to any questions from our old pals Sirje and Elaine.

Do some research and stop living in denial. The 12 –Point Reform Agenda speaks for itself, and so too the many answers that are online at All Experts.Com, and on this site and JR’s old site, which is still up and loaded with past discussion about Adventist Reform.

As for the “big guns,” why would you think the religious leaders would run to embrace Adventist Reform? The history of the church shows that the leaders always run away from the Gospel, not to it. Thus they refused to embrace John the Baptist, who was the prototype of someone “crying in the Wilderness.”

The Religious leaders also refused to understand or accept Jesus teaching about the law and the Gospel, which was reflected in his strange new Sabbath doctrine, which they hated. Thus the leaders led the people away from truth in the name of God. This is what religious leaders have doing throughout history and today is no exception.

Matt. 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

John 7:46 The officers answered, “Never has a man spoken the way this man speaks.”

John 7:47 The Pharisees then answered them, “You have not also been led astray, have you?

John 7:48 “No one of the rulers or Pharisees has believed in Him, has he?

While it would appear that Jesus must be a poor spokesman for the Gospel, the real problem is something else. Those holding religious power do not want to give up their control and benefits. This is the nature of man, which is in direct conflict with the Gospel.

Even Jesus apostles, who had little standing in the community, argued over who would have the most power and control in the church. Underscoring the fact that those who do not understand the Gospel correctly always end up fighting for power and control.

Luke 9:44 “Let these words sink into your ears; for the Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.”

Luke 9:45 But they did not understand this statement, and it was concealed from them so that they would not perceive it; and they were afraid to ask Him about this statement.

Luke 9:46 An argument started among them as to which of them might be the greatest.

Luke 9:47 But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side,

Luke 9:48 and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in My name receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me; for the one who is least among all of you, this is the one who is great.”

Luke 22:24 And there arose also a dispute among them as to which one of them was regarded to be greatest.

Luke 22:25 And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’

Luke 22:26 “But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant.

Luke 22:27 “For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.

When it comes to SDA history, their leaders also ran away from Gospel Reform in 1888 and again in 1980, and again at the turn of the 21st century when Adventist Reform was introduced online for all to see. How blind must the SDA leaders be to not understand this evil pattern that is destroying them? Very blind. And so they are.

Matt. 15:12 Then the disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?”

Matt. 15:13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.

Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

I was young and foolish to ever think the leaders would welcome the truth about 1888 or Ellen White. Arthur White was an evil Pharisee, not a seeker for Gospel truth. I found nothing in the White Estate or Archives that the leaders had not already read, disliked, and hidden.

The SDA leaders are as fully corrupt as were the 1st century Pharisees. They too refuse to admit they could be wrong about the law or the Sabbath, even as they refuse to have an open and honest investigation about the issues. They are incompetent and dishonest guides, wolves is sheep’s clothing.

The 4th Angels Message is a populist paradigm. It does not emanate from the leaders, even as it condemns them for legions of false doctrine, exposing them as wolves. This new, Gospel based “message” overturns the status quo of Traditional Adventism, even as it exposes the false Gospel and false Sabbath of the SDA’s for all to see.

Now is the time for the SDA’s to stop their double-talk and deal with their many mistakes. If the leaders will not move forward, and they will not, then the people must leave them behind. This is the pattern of Gospel Reform. The people must repudiate their worthless leaders and move forward without them.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for the 4th Angels Message

bob_2 · 07-16-11 11:25 pm

Tom, make sure you know when you are talking to Bob and when to Bob_2.

bob_2 · 07-16-11 11:32 pm

Just as there is no sacred day in the Gospel, Tom, you have put forth that the Sabbath is Reformed for the Gospel. Jesus kept the Sabbath as the Sabbath was meant to be kept under the OC which he was under. Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath in his flesh, forgiving our sins and giving soul rest.

Last edited by bob_2 (07-16-11 11:33 pm)

tom_norris · 07-23-11 12:11 pm

Bob2 said: Just as there is no sacred day in the Gospel, Tom, you have put forth that the Sabbath is Reformed for the Gospel.

Tom said: How can anyone read the NT and conclude that there is no weekly Sabbath in the Gospel Story?

While there was great debate over the Sabbath in the Gospels, neither side took the position that “there is no sacred day.” The debate was how to define the weekly Sabbath, not whether there should be such a doctrine for the Jews and then the church.

Moreover, there is a reason why every church and denomination in history has always embraced a doctrine of the Sabbath. It is because the Sabbath is a featured teaching of Christ in all four Gospels. How can the church ignore such a featured teaching of Christ?

Jesus tireless defense of the Sabbath, at least his view of it, is impossible to overlook or ignore, which explains why the church has always had a Sabbath doctrine and still does to this very day. It will always have such a special weekly day.

Make no mistake about it: Jesus defended and explained his Gospel view of the 7th Sabbath, even claiming to be the “Lord” of this ancient Jewish doctrine that memorializes the creation story. What a pity that today, not one church in the land can correctly explain Jesus view of the Sabbath, least of all the SDA’s, the ones who claim to be the experts on this topic.

Jesus NC view of the Sabbath was very different from his OC minded contemporaries. So much so, that this was the primary reason why he was sent to the cross. The Jews hated his Gospel and his reformed Sabbath that it featured, and so too many today. Especially the SDA’s. They cannot even process this NC Sabbath. It is beyond their legalistic comprehension. They are the modern day Jews.

Bob2 said: Jesus kept the Sabbath as the Sabbath was meant to be kept under the OC, which he was under.

Tom said: Wrong! Jesus REFUSED to follow the OC rules of the Sabbath. This is why he was in such trouble from the very start of his public ministry. Such a fact is made very clear in the Gospels. I think people should actually read and study the Gospels before they try to explain what they say? That would save a lot of time don’t you think?

In fact the NT shows that wherever Jesus went, he made sure to publicly BREAK THE SABBATH for all to see.

Such purposeful behavior awed the crowds even as it infuriated the OC leaders. Thus, every Sabbath, Jesus caused great commotion and division wherever he went as he unveiled his new and very controversial doctrine of the Sabbath to the Jews, aka, the first Christians.

However, from the very start, it is clear that the leaders did not want anything to do with this new paradigm shift to the NC church. But Jesus was on a mission to teach the Gospel and develop the Church, and part of the Gospel is the Reformed Sabbath for the church. So he had no choice but to teach and demonstrate this great Gospel reform. It is what made him famous. Jesus was a great Sabbath breaker, who died because he refused to conform to the OC law.

Jesus the Sabbath Breaker

The NT shows that Jesus walked into the synagogue in order to break the OC Sabbath law. He stands up in front and invites the crippled man to “come forward” so all can see how this new Gospel Sabbath works. (Pun intended).

One can sense the drama and the tension. The synagogue was silent as the people were stunned at the unfolding scene. Then Jesus engages them about the doctrine of the Sabbath. But no one dared speak, even though Jesus asked them all a specific question (v4) about the Sabbath. Still silence.

The Jewish leaders refused to enter into such a public discussion because they could not refute what Jesus was teaching. So they stonewalled and refused to answer. It was clear to Jesus that their minds were made up to defend the OC, non-working Sabbath of Moses.

And because the leaders refused to answer, or enter into an honest discussion about the Gospel Sabbath, Jesus became angry. (v5). He was also sad they were such hardhearted and mean legalists who would rather uphold the law than help people, which is a major point of the Gospel. He knew that unless they changed their attitudes, they would never understand nor embrace his Gospel. He knew that those who rejected his Gospel Sabbath would also reject the Gospel.

Here is the earliest known account of the Sabbath debates:

Mark 3:1 He entered again into a synagogue; and a man was there whose hand was withered.

Mark 3:2 They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him.

Mark 3:3 He *said to the man with the withered hand, “Get up and come forward!”

Mark 3:4 And He *said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to kill?” But they kept silent.

Mark 3:5 After looking around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, He *said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored.

Mark 3:6 The Pharisees went out and immediately began conspiring with the Herodians against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

Jesus understood that the Sabbath had to be reformed into a different (NC) doctrine. He knew that the OC “schoolmaster” Sabbath, which was based on the Law and the Levitical Priesthood, could never accommodate the Gospel, which was based on the Priesthood of all believers and salvation by Faith.

In fact, Jesus famous teachings about “new wine” are a direct reference to his reformed Gospel Sabbath. It is the context of the earliest Sabbath debates on record.

Mark 2:21 “No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; otherwise the patch pulls away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear results.

Mark 2:22 “No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins.”

Mark 2:23 And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain.

Mark 2:24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”

Mark 2:25 And He *said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry;

Mark 2:26 how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?”

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Then Jesus confronts the religious leaders over the Gospel Sabbath, even getting angry with them because they are rejecting his new Gospel wine.

Mark 3:1 He entered again into a synagogue; and a man was there whose hand was withered.

Mark 3:2 They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him.

Jesus taught a radical and very different Sabbath from the very start of his ministry. This is why the OC leaders were anxiously watching to see what he was going to do every Sabbath.

It is one thing to talk heresy in the town square, and yet another to walk into the place of worship and defy the leaders for all to see. Thus Jesus took his NC case to the people, over the protests of the leaders, which made them even angrier.

Mark is portraying a remarkable scene whereby Jesus is openly challenging the OC Sabbath by breaking the law for all to see. He did so with passion, purpose, and dramatic healings. And he never backed down from his controversial NC view of the Sabbath that was so very different from the OC Sabbath.

Jesus REFORMED the Sabbath, FOR THE CHURCH, in a very dramatic manner. He was not trying to teach some improved version of the OC Sabbath doctrine as you claim. No. No. No. He was changing the old wine of Judaism into the new wine of the Gospel for the church, and the Sabbath is a key paradigm shifter that underscores and demonstrates the doctrinal transition from law to faith.

The Gospel teachings of Jesus are NC in nature, including his very different view of the Sabbath, which he claims he received from God the Father. Here is the true, NC Sabbath and Lord’s Day for the church.

The NC Sabbath cannot be on Sunday, nor can it prohibit anyone from doing work on the 7th day, as the SDA’s teach. Thus there is a new Sabbath doctrine for the last church to understand and embrace. After they repent first. Its author is Jesus Christ. Those that follow him will understand and embrace his Gospel Sabbath. Those that don’t, won’t.

Bob2 said: Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath in his flesh, forgiving our sins and giving soul rest.

Tom said: This recent idea that there is no Sabbath for the church is absurd and very wrong. NCT is based on false and impossible assumptions, which render it useless when trying to resolve the Sabbath debate.

Let all in the SDA Community, that were foolish enough to embrace this theological double-talk, repent. It is not the solution to the legalistic errors of the SDA’s. This teaching is clearly against Christ. Any that embrace it are following a false Christ and a foolish path.

While NCT appeared to make sense when compared to the obvious errors of the IJ and Traditional Adventism, a close examination finds it just as wrong and worthless. Thus many climbed out of one ditch just to fall into another, thus error leads to more error. Pity. But this is what happens when the blind follow the blind.

However, not all SDA’s are blind to the Gospel. Thanks to men like Dr. Ford, the NC doctrine of the Sabbath is not only preserved, it is much better understood.

The Sabbath debate is over.

The active, 7th day Sabbath, as taught by Jesus in the Gospels, is the long lost Sabbath of the church.

This unique NC doctrine features the “Priesthood of All Believers,” even as it subordinates the Law to the authority and teaching of Christ, thus becoming a living parable of the Gospel every week.

Let all Laodiceans of every denomination repent for their many false views of the Sabbath, starting with the SDA’s. They were on the right track, getting close to discovering this doctrine in 1888, but like the Jews, they too selected the Law over the Gospel, embracing the “schoolmaster” Sabbath of Christ’s enemies.

Now the SDA’s are spinning out of control, racing towards their doom as they refuse to repent. Their only hope is to confess their legalism and embrace the active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath of Christ and move forward to the 4th Angels Message.

This is the true path to Eternal Life.

Luke 14:35 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath

bob_2 · 07-23-11 1:49 pm

The Four Gospels were a discription of when Jesus was on earth. That was still under the old Covenant and any discription of the proper Sabbathkeeping did not contradict the 4th Commandment. Had He not lived perfectly under the Old Covenant we would not have a Savior. However, with texts like we have discussed, Col 2:16, 17, 2 Cor 3: 7., and 2 Cor 3:15.

Tom you continue to talk past these texts, with long unbiblically support positions, with your own logic and reason, to your own folly.

Jesus lived the Old Covenant perfectly. Nothing He said took away from it but he did talk of a coming kingdom, a message to the Gentiles. Notice in the story of the Samartian woman at the well, He didn't tell her to worship on the Sabbath but said a change was coming. in John 4. You keep saying it is your "Reformed Sabbath" He was speaking of but have not proved it but put prolonged unrelated material and condemnation verses that don't have the context of a "Reformed Sabbath. You in this matter are unBibllical.

Last edited by bob_2 (07-23-11 2:11 pm)

tom_norris · 07-24-11 12:57 pm

Bob2 said: The Four Gospels were a description of when Jesus was on earth.

Tom said: The teachings of Jesus are New Covenant in nature. Jesus was not an OC figure, but a NC Pioneer and the Son of God. His Gospel teachings, while based on the context and prophecies of the OC, are NC. Until you can accept this historical and theological fact, you will never understand the Gospel or the Reformed Sabbath of Christ.

Jesus is not Moses, who stands for the OC brand. Jesus represents the NC. If you cannot embrace this point, then you are not even a Christian.

So stop right where you are with this NCT nonsense and repent for thinking that Jesus is teaching the Old Covenant in the Gospels. This is an absurd and impossible position. No scholar in the history of the church has ever taught such a silly point. It is ludicrous. NCT is not credible or even sane. It is based on utter nonsense and myth.

Jesus was not promoting the OC whatsoever, which is why you always find his Gospel teachings in the front of the NT. None of the Gospels have even been placed in the OT, and for very good reason.

In fact, Jesus was abolishing OC Judaism, which is why the Jews killed him. They knew his teaching would make them all unemployed. You however, are the only person I have ever heard claiming that Jesus was an OC figure and that his teachings are not for the church, but for the OC Jews.

Such a position is not serious, even though you may want to pretend otherwise. Unless you stop embracing so may false and wrong assumptions, you will never understand the NT or the Gospel.

So the choice is yours. Remain blind to the Gospel because you are too proud to admit you have embraced the error of NCT or repent and pay attention to the genuine Gospel Story.

Bob2 said: (Jesus teaching) was still under the old Covenant and any description of the proper Sabbath keeping did not contradict the 4th Commandment.

Tom said: While Jesus was born under the OC Jewish Law, which is why he was circumcised, he matured and came to the place where the OC disgusted him. Thus, he promoted Gospel over law, making it clear that God had sent him to Reform Judaism, including the Sabbath, Priesthood and Temple, starting the NC church.

Furthermore, Jesus did defy the Law of Moses and “contradict the 4th Commandment.” Over and over he violated the rule of not working on the Sabbath so he could teach a new way to view the Sabbath. Thus the NC Gospel Sabbath trumps the law based Sabbath of Moses.

Of course this makes perfect sense because the Law and the Gospel are at odds with one another. They are opposing paradigms that can never be blended, which of course is the great error of the RCC and even the SDA’s.

Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith;

The moment Jesus taught that there was no sin in working on the Sabbath; he was at odds with thousands of years of Jewish tradition and practice. Such a position directly contradicted Moses and the 4th Commandment. Which is why there was such uproar in all four Gospels about Jesus Sabbath teaching. It was a doctrine that stunned and angered the legalistic Jews, even as it was pure theological genius for those that embraced the Gospel.

Thus Jesus reformed the Sabbath from an OC doctrine into a NC one, even as he made it clear that those who would follow him must embrace his NC Sabbath Reforms. How ironic that the man who reformed the Sabbath was put to death for Sabbath breaking.

While there was plenty of rules and guilt associated with the OC Sabbath, there is none associated with the NC Sabbath. Jesus taught that those who embraced his Gospel were free to do whatever good works they choose on the 7th day without censure or guilt, much less interference from the
Sabbath police.

Thus there were no Sabbath rules, other than the general rule that this was a weekly day for the congregation to meet and praise God, and thank him for the Gospel.

Jesus radical teaching dramatically contradicted the OC on every level, which is why the leaders killed Christ. They were trying to protect their OC ways from the many Gospel reforms of Jesus, especially his reformed Sabbath and this wild idea that everyone is going to be Priest of God and that the Temple is now defined as the church.

However, the Jews failed to stop the Gospel, even as OC Judaism was annihilated by the Romans shortly after the cross, leaving the wicked Jews homeless until the 20th century when the times of the Gentiles expired and they reestablished their Nation after WWII.

Luke 21:23 “Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;

Luke 21:24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

So Bob, the facts prove you wrong again. Can you admit this and repent of NCT? There is much truth to still uncover and embrace. Why waste it on worthless theological theories that don’t hold up?

Bob2 said: Had He not lived perfectly under the Old Covenant we would not have a Savior.

Tom said: While Jesus was never guilty of sin, there came a time when he promoted the NC, at the expense of the OC.

To promote the Gospel, the Law must be subordinated, the Priesthood changed, and the Temple reformed. These controversial and illegal reforms were part of the NC Sabbath of Christ. There is no use in denying what is so clearly presented in the Gospels.

Give up the confusion of NCT. Then you will be able to see things in a better light.

Matt. 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light.

Bob2 said: However, with texts like we have discussed, Col 2:16, 17, 2 Cor 3: 7., and 2 Cor 3:15. Tom you continue to talk past these texts, with long unbiblically support positions, with your own logic and reason, to your own folly.

Tom said: Why are you quoting Paul against Christ? Why are you avoiding the Gospels and pretending the Sabbath teachings of Christ are not for Christians? This is no way to treat the Word or understand the Gospel. Pitiful.

Furthermore, since when is it folly to study the Gospels and embrace the teaching of Christ? Your obvious attempt to use Paul to blunt and trump the teachings of Christ is a worthless proof texting stunt that proves you incapable of honestly dealing with the Word. You will never understand truth with such a dishonest hermeneutic. Sorry.

Those that choose to remain blind, are truly blind, even though they claim to see perfectly. I suggest that you consider your true situation and ask God for the miracle of spiritual sight. It has worked for some in the past. It might work for you, if you can ever admit you don’t see too clearly.

Mark 10:46 Then they came to Jericho. And as He was leaving Jericho with His disciples and a large crowd, a blind beggar named Bartimaeus, the son of Timaeus, was sitting by the road.

Mark 10:47 When he heard that it was Jesus the Nazarene, he began to cry out and say, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!”

Mark 10:48 Many were sternly telling him to be quiet, but he kept crying out all the more, “Son of David, have mercy on me!”

Mark 10:49 And Jesus stopped and said, “Call him here.” So they called the blind man, saying to him, “Take courage, stand up! He is calling for you.”

Mark 10:50 Throwing aside his cloak, he jumped up and came to Jesus.

Mark 10:51 And answering him, Jesus said, “What do you want Me to do for you?” And the blind man said to Him, “Rabboni, I want to regain my sight!”

Bob, do you want to be cured of your doctrinal blindness? Do you want to understand the Gospel and obtain Eternal Life?

It does not appear so. Unlike Bartimaeus, the blind man in the above account, you are not running to Jesus asking to be healed. You seem to prefer Paul and others. You must think you are not blind, but you are in great darkness. Sad.

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

Bob2 said: Jesus lived the Old Covenant perfectly.

Tom said: Ha! None of the 1st century religious leaders would ever agree with such a statement. They thought Jesus was a great Sabbath breaker and blasphemer who wanted to destroy OC Judaism.

So your opinion is at odds with the record of history, not my views, which are meant to carefully follow the NT.

However, up to a point, your assumption would be true. But there came a time when Jesus clearly understood the NC, and thus he had to repudiate and move beyond the OC in order to develop the NC. Thus, during his ministry, Jesus worked to undercut and overthrow OC Judaism, even as its leaders tried to destroy him and his followers. It was a battle to the death, and both paid a heavy price for the clash.

Bob2 said: Nothing He said took away from it but he did talk of a coming kingdom, a message to the Gentiles.

Tom said: You are not paying attention. If Jesus was not a threat to the OC, then way did he have so many OC enemies?

Answer: Jesus had so many Jewish enemies because he was trying to reform and change OC Judaism into the NC Church.

The Jews did not want to co-operate. They did not want to disband the Levitical order, much less turn over the Temple to Jesus and his ragtag band of uneducated disciples. They loved the status quo, which included tithing and no work on the Sabbath, and food laws, etc., etc, as well as an arrogant and proud attitude that they were God’s special people, blah, blah, blah. (Sounds just like the SDA’s).

Moreover, many people forget that the Jews were the first Christians. So when Christ is speaking to the Jews in the Gospels, he is addressing the first members of his New Covenant church. The Gentiles were allowed to enter the church later, but even so, all NC doctrine is Semitic and so it shall forever be.

I repeat; Jesus taught the NC Gospel when he was here on earth. This was part of his mission, which also included his death on the cross for Sabbath breaking and blasphemy. But he was innocent of both charges. His reformed Sabbath was not sinful and he was the Son of God. Let all pay careful attention to what he says.

Bob2 said: Notice in the story of the Samaritan woman at the well, He didn't tell her to worship on the Sabbath but said a change was coming. In John 4.

Tom said: First off, if you want to understand Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath, you must study read those passages that deal with the Sabbath. There are plenty of them in all four Gospels.

So while you think John 4 provides you with proof that there is no Sabbath, as per the delusions of NCT, you should have read John 5, which deals with the Reformed Sabbath of Christ. And then John 7 and 9. The doctrine of the Sabbath is being discussed and debated in many places in John, as well as the rest of the Gospels. I suggest that you read this material before you continue to insist that there is no Sabbath for the church.

Second, there was no reason for Jesus to tell a Samaritan person anything about the 7th day Sabbath. They kept it more strictly than did the Jews, even as they also embraced Moses and the 10 Commandments.

While the Jews would light candles on the Sabbath, travel a short distance, and engage in sex with their spouses, all these activities were forbidden on the Sabbath for the Samaritans. Their Sabbath keeping was stricter than the Jews.

See for yourself from their own website:

The Sabbath is the most sacred day to the Samaritans, even more so than Yom Kippur. On the Sabbath, Samaritans seize from all work and avoid operating any electric devices, cooking, driving or lighting fires. Approximately half an hour prior to the start of the Sabbath on Friday eve, while the women are busy with cooking and last preparations for the Sabbath, the men gather at the Samaritan synagogue located at the hart of their neighborhoods, both in Hulon and on Mt. Grizim.

The Samaritans In Israel
http://www.shomronim.com/Sabbath.htm

Differences Between Samaritan-Israelites and
Jews of their Religious Beliefs
http://shomron0.tripod.com/articles/differences.pdf

See also:

Amid conflict, Samaritans keep unique identity
http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast … amaritans/

The Samaritan Update
http://shomron0.tripod.com/update1.3.2002.htm

Perhaps the reason why the woman at the well was so popular with the men in her town is because she followed the
Sabbath practice (“lay activities”?) of the Jews instead of the Samaritans. This would help explain why she was so popular.

Third, this passage in John 4 views the demise of OC Judaism. Jesus is saying that Jerusalem will no longer control doctrine or be a source of truth, even though the Jews did bring salvation to the world. Such a statement hardly supports the NCT view that the Sabbath has been abolished in the NC.

Rather OC Judaism was abolished, including the schoolmaster Sabbath of the Jews, along with the Priesthood, Temple, and Nation.

In fact, if Jesus was going to abolish the Sabbath after the cross, then why spend so much time dealing was a passing doctrine? This would make no sense, especially because his views of the Sabbath are what sent him to the cross. Why die for something that is going to be abolished?

This is why there are no long running debates between Jesus and the Jews about circumcision or tithe or the Temple rituals. Jesus did not waste his time trying to teach anything about points that were going to be abolished after the cross. But the Sabbath is very different.

Christ reforms and changes the OC Sabbath into a Gospel based doctrine. This is why we see Jesus spending so much time in the promotion, defense, and explanation of his 7th day Gospel Sabbath in all four Gospels.

Thus the Reformed Sabbath of Christ was not meant for the OC era, but the NC age. For the Church. Deny this point and you deny Christ, the Lord of the active and Reformed Sabbath.

John 4:19 The woman *said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.

John 4:20 “Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.”

John 4:21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

John 4:22 “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

John 4:23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

John 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

If anyone reading the Gospel of John was wondering what Jesus meant by this new view of truthful worship, they did not have long to wait. Because in John 5, Jesus teaches his reformed Sabbath, even claiming that God is the author of his new Sabbath.

John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever 1the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Jesus reformed, NC Sabbath represents a sea change in doctrine. To deny this fact, is to deny Christ and his Gospel. Jesus teaches that those who refuse to hear Jesus teaching about the Gospel Sabbath will forfeit Eternal Life.

John 5:36 “But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish — the very works that I do — testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.

John 5:37 “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.

John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Those that seek Eternal Life must receive it on Jesus terms, not theirs. Any that are “unwilling” to embrace his Reformed, 7th day Gospel Sabbath “do not have God’s Word abiding in them.”

So Bob, you and all those that embrace the error of NCT are faced with a choice. Continue on with these false teachings and lose out on Eternal Life, or repent and embrace the one and only Gospel of Christ, which includes his controversial, Reformed, 7th day, active, Sabbath.

I suggest you choose wisely.

Bob2 said: You keep saying it is your "Reformed Sabbath" He was speaking of, but have not proved it but put prolonged unrelated material and condemnation verses that don't have the context of a "Reformed Sabbath. You in this matter are unbiblical.

Tom said: Ha! This is what the Jews also thought about the Gospel teachings of Jesus. They too said his NC, Reformed Sabbath was very wrong, against the law and God, and “unbiblical,’ etc.

But Jesus understood God and the OT far better than the Jewish leaders, who could not understand his many references to scripture. It’s as if the Jews had ears that could not hear and eyes that could not see.

Jesus had a very difficult time trying to reform the Sabbath and launch the church. The Jews refused to co-operate with their Messiah because they misunderstood the scriptures. Sad. Very sad. And so it is today…

Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God?

So I say again to the scattered and confused SDA Community, do not embrace the error of either NCT or the schoolmaster Sabbath of Traditional Adventism. They are both worthless and wrong doctrines that are only diversions from genuine Gospel doctrine.

Those who claim to follow Christ must do so, even as all Christians are voluntarily “under the law of Christ.” Jesus’ NC Sabbath teaching is part of the “law of Christ.”

To deny Jesus Reformed Sabbath teaching is to rebel from the law of Christ and to deny the Gospel. This will result in damnation. Let all those confused about the Sabbath understand their great danger.

1Cor. 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.

1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

1Cor. 9:22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.

1Cor. 9:23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

1Cor. 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.

It is time for the Advent Community to get serious about their mission to proclaim the Gospel and warn the world about the coming Tribulation.

It is time for those that want to win the Gospel prize to wake up, repent for their false Sabbath and confused Gospel, and get serious about doctrine and eschatology.

Can you do that Bob? Can you repent of NCT and embrace the active and free Sabbath that was made for the NC man? Can you lead out in much needed Gospel Reform within the self-destructing SDA Community? Or will you allow yourself to be diverted into false paths?

Matt. 13:12 “For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris, for the new and improved- 7th day Gospel Sabbath

bob_2 · 07-24-11 4:12 pm

Tom, there is no way that the New Covenant can begin before the Last Supper, Christ's death and His resurrection and ascension. Some put the beginning of the New Covenant as far out as Pentecost when the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus is poured out on believers that believe in Jesus by faith.

Jesus was born under the law and kept the OC law, clarifying what the Pharisees had built, their own rules that were wrong.Jesus teaching is not a Reforming of Old Law but clarification of Old Law until the Last Supper, His death and resurrection. To say Jesus lived under the New Covenant is not to understand the Covenants, Tom.

If you can show texts that contradict this, I will have to eat my words!!!

Last edited by bob_2 (07-24-11 4:13 pm)

bob_2 · 07-24-11 4:32 pm

There is no way the New Covenant begain before Christ's death:

Galatians 4:4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

Any correction He gave was not Reformed old Covenant but the correct way the Old Covenant was to be kept that He was born under.

Also see: http://www.thenewcovenant.com/nc12.htm

Notice that Jesus blood had to be shed to usher in the New Covenant:

1 Cor 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Last edited by bob_2 (07-25-11 12:02 pm)

tom_norris · 07-28-11 11:48 am

Bob2 said: Tom, there is no way that the New Covenant can begin before the Last Supper, Christ's death and His resurrection and ascension.

Tom said: The Gospel Story is NC.

The very term “Gospel” is a NC term and a very different theological paradigm from the OC. The Gospels records the acts of Jesus, the Son of God, as he introduces the NC to the Jews. The earliest Gospel makes it clear that the NC STARTS WITH JESUS AND HIS GOSPEL TEACHING.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

After John the B had been arrested, Jesus made his move. This is when he started his NEW COVENANT ministry and introduced the Gospel and his reformed, NC Sabbath to the Jews. He is not teaching the OC in the Gospels. He is teaching the NC. The Gospel of God. The time for the OC had passed; it was time for the NC.

Mark 1:14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,

Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the (NC) gospel.”

John 1:17 For the (OC) Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ (and the NC).

Do not confuse the legal “ratification” of the NC, (by the blood of Christ), with Jesus’ NC Gospel teaching, before the cross.

Jesus Gospel teaching represents the essence of NC knowledge and Gospel wisdom. He lived and taught the NC, and then he gave his blood to make his teaching legal and valid. Then he went to heaven, leaving behind his NC instruction, which was written down by his apostles for the edification and guidance of the church.

We have this record of Christ’s NC teaching. It is the Gospels. Which includes his NC Reformed Sabbath for the Church. Period. Repent of this idea that Jesus taught OC doctrine. He was a NC Gospel preacher, teacher, and healer; the inventor of the active, 7th day Reformed Sabbath for the Church.

When did the NC start?

The NC began the second Jesus was born, and perhaps even before that,- at conception. But even so, the NC was not ratified until the cross or even a little afterwards. Regardless, his Gospel teachings are NC in nature.

Read the following from Hebrews and understand this point:

Heb. 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Heb. 10:5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
“SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;

Heb. 10:6 IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.

Heb. 10:7 “THEN I SAID, ‘BEHOLD, I HAVE COME
(IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME)
TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.’”

Heb. 10:8 After saying above, “SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them” (which are offered according to the Law),

Heb. 10:9 then He said, “BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second.

Jesus came to earth to establish NC Gospel. This was his mission, and the method of saving mankind. The OC, or the “first order,” is “taken away” by Christ so that he could “establish the second Covenant.” The NC.

So Bob, stop saying that Jesus was an OC teacher. He was not. His Gospel Message represents NC teaching.

Stop saying that he was thinking and speaking like an OC person. He was doing no such thing. Jesus “takes away” the OC and established the NC.

Jesus is a NC figure and so too are his teachings. Your false assumptions are preventing you from understanding correct doctrine and history.

Bob2 said: Some put the beginning of the New Covenant as far out as Pentecost when the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus is poured out on believers that believe in Jesus by faith.

Tom said: Who cares what silly people do? The apostles do not teach such myth, so that is the end of that. The NC starts with the Gospel Story, which is recorded in all four Gospels.

Furthermore, I have never heard anyone claim that Jesus Gospel teaching is OC in nature! This view is so warped and absurd that it cannot find any scholar to support such a position, least of all the apostles.

The Gospels are NC works. Deny this if you want, but there is not one scholar in the world that has ever embraced this crazy notion that Jesus is an OC figure who did not teach NC doctrine. It is madness to talk this way. Are you really this dull, or is this just a desperate attempt to defend the errors of NCT.

You know that the moment you admit the Gospels are NC in nature;-here comes the Reformed Sabbath that you think does not exist. So no wonder you want to pretend that the teachings of Jesus are OC. You are manipulating the Word to defend false doctrine.

But the Gospels are NC in nature, and so too is Jesus’ active, 7th day Sabbath, which he teaches in all four Gospels for the church to follow. The fact that few people know about this doctrine only proves how few understand the Gospel. Almost none. However, this will change according to Rev 18.

Whatever your motive to follow NCT, you need to learn proper history and hermeneutics so you can understand the NT correctly and save your soul. Then you can use your talents and passion for correct and true Gospel doctrine. Which will result in Eternal Life for you and many others.

Bob2 said: Jesus was born under the law and kept the OC law, clarifying what the Pharisees had built, their own rules, that were wrong.

Tom said: Jesus stopped obeying and following the OC law at least by the time he started his ministry. How do we know this? Because the Gospels make this clear. This is why the Gospels of Mark, John, and Luke show Jesus promoting, defending, and debating his Reformed Sabbath from the very start of his ministry.

What was this debate all about?

Jesus, who was not a Levite, refused to follow the Law of Moses about not working on the Sabbath. Not only that, he taught others to also do forbidden works on the Sabbath, even claiming that God gave him permission.

This is what the Record says over and over.

So you need to stop saying that Jesus “kept the OC law.” The NT record shows that he did NOT. Who are you to deny the NT record?

In fact, Jesus was such a public Sabbath-breaker that the leaders plotted to kill him very early in his ministry. Why? Because he refused to keep the OC law, especially the 4th Commandment.

With such a fact pattern, how can anyone today claim that Jesus “kept the OC law perfectly”? The NT clearly shows he did not? This is why the Jews turned on him and rejected this lawbreaker.

The Gospel Story is not up for revision or change by anyone, much less the blind and confused Laodiceans. It is madness to twist and change the clear meaning of the Gospel Story and many will lose Eternal Life because of such games. Beware my friend.

In fact, those who dare change the clear meaning of scripture, on any point, looking for ways to defend their false doctrines, are guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. There is little that is more dangerous to ones understanding of the Gospel then being dishonest with the Word. To deny the plain teaching of the Word is the great sin of Laodicea.

Pay attention: Jesus refused to keep the OC law. THIS is why he was sent to the cross. Stop making up your own version of the Gospel Story, it is a pointless and self-destructive endeavor.

Bob2 said: Jesus teaching is not a Reforming of Old Law but clarification of Old Law until the Last Supper, His death and resurrection.

Tom said: Jesus swept away the OC, establishing the NC instead. He made it clear that the Gospel was now replacing the OC. Which is why those in charge of the OC wanted him silenced and killed him, even as they outlawed the Gospel.

OC Judaism, when reformed by the NC Gospel, equals the Christian Faith. Both are Jewish, but very different from each other. Jesus teaching in the Gospels is for the Church. He is the head theologian and Savior of the church; his Words count more than all others. Jesus Words are NC in nature, purpose, and intent. There is no use pretending otherwise.

Matt. 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Anyone that is “ashamed” of Jesus Active, Reformed, 7th day Sabbath, embracing alternative views, such as NCT, or Sunday keeping, or the “Schoolmaster Sabbath” of the SDA’s will not pass the Judgment. Jesus will turn away from any so foolish as to think they can fool heaven and spin the NT whatever way they want.

Why be a pretend Christian? What is the point or purpose? Either follow the genuine Christ of the Gospels, or forget religion totally. Why pretend? Eternal Life is not for pretenders or hypocrites, or any that cannot understand the Word.

Bob2 said: To say Jesus lived under the New Covenant is not to understand the Covenants, Tom.

Tom said: Since when do the blind instruct those who can see? Anyone that embraces NCT is very confused about the Gospel and the Two Covenants. Why follow those that are blind?

Jesus lived under both Covenants. He was born under the OC and grew up in an OC Jewish culture and environment. However, this is not what made Jesus famous. Rather, his fame is because he started the NC. The church. He predicted the demise of the OC, (the destruction of Jerusalem) and founded the Church. While born under the OC, it only took him 12 years to understand that he was the Lamb of God, and the High Priest of the NC.

By the time he started his Gospel ministry, (aka NC ministry), he had worked out the details of his NC Gospel message, one that would include a paradigm shifting and very controversial doctrine of the Reformed, NC Sabbath.

Pay attention: Jesus lived under the OC, but invented, introduced, and promoted the NC. This is why the OC leaders killed him. They hated his NC Gospel reforms, and so too does the SDA church today, and for the very same reasons.

Today, those who claim to follow Jesus must first understand his life and teaching correctly. Many have no idea what the NT really teaches, which is obvious by the universal confusion and error about the Sabbath doctrine.

When the church understands the Gospel correctly, it will be reflected in the Sabbath doctrine.

Bob2 said: If you can show texts that contradict this, I will have to eat my words!!!

Tom said: The entire NT refutes your view, starting with all four Gospels. The passage from Hebrews that was quoted above should also help you, if you are really looking for truth that is.

The Gospels are NC in nature, purpose, and content. The NT actually means NC; they are one and the same word.

If you ever want to understand the Gospel and the reformed Sabbath of Christ, then you must first repent of NCT and many other myths and false assumptions. Can you do that?

If it makes you feel better, all the Gospels were written after the cross. So when they were penned, the NC teachings of Christ had been ratified. But even so, the apostles start the Gospel Story, aka the NC record, with the birth of Christ, not after the cross as you claim.

But regardless, the point here is to understand that Jesus’ Reformed, active, 7th day Gospel Sabbath was meant for the NC Church. This point is rock solid and so too is the Reformed 7th day Sabbath under discussion.

THIS is the long lost Sabbath that will make a dramatic comeback at the end of time.

This is the Sabbath that the SDA’s should have discovered back in 1888, and again in 1980. But each time they return to their “schoolmaster” Sabbath and their incorrect view of the law, Gospel and the Two Covenants.

The SDA’s have the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath and thus they must repent just as much as the Sunday keepers who have the wrong day and wrong Gospel.

There is only one Gospel and one Gospel Sabbath. Rejoice that it has been found, and grieve for the fact that the SDA’s are opposed to it and the genuine Gospel. Just like the Jews.

Come on Bob, you can work through this. I know you can.

Bob2 said again: There is no way the New Covenant began before Christ's death:

Tom said: The NC begins with the birth of Jesus. If you doubt this, just read the Gospels. They are the official record of the NC. Which means that they are the official NC teachings of Jesus. There is “no way” they are OC, as you claim. No way!

This is such a strange and bazaar position that it is amazing that anyone would seriously try to promote such historical error and heresy.

Bob2 posted: Galatians 4:4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
Any correction He gave was not Reformed old Covenant but the correct way the Old Covenant was to be kept that He was born under.

Tom said: It is very wrong to think that Moses and the Jews did not mean what they said about not working on the Sabbath. Or that Jesus can to earth to help the Jews better understand and obey Moses Law. His new doctrine of the Sabbath makes any such speculation absurd and impossible.

In OC Judaism, it was a great sin to break the Sabbath by working. There is no way around this prohibition, which prevented a warm fire, cooking, travel, and all manner of activity on the 7th day, -unless one were a Levite. These Priests lived under a different set of Sabbath rules. They had an official exemption from Moses to work on the Sabbath. They could light fires, cook the sacrifices, clean the Temple, Travel, etc., and thus they were exempt and guiltless for doing what others were forbidden to do.

By contrast, Jesus Reformed Sabbath allowed ALL to work on the Sabbath because all in the NC were considered Priests. No more Levites in the NC. No more Friday preparation day either. No tithe, and no Temple. NO wonder the Jews wanted to kill him. His teachings would destroy OC Judaism.

The NC was so very different from the OC, that no one should think Jesus confused the two, or that he was in any way trying to reform or save OC Judaism. He was all about NC Judaism, WHICH IS THE CHURCH. The Gospels are for the Church, not to help prolong or extend OC Judaism.

Moreover, this major Sabbath change as proposed by Jesus was against the OC and out of the question as far as the leaders were concerned. In fact, Jesus teaching, by design, destroyed the Levitical Priesthood, even as he gave permission for all who followed him to work on the 7th day Sabbath. This infuriated the Jews.

I repeat: Jesus’ teaching destroyed the OC and brought in the NC. This was intentional. One cannot deny the mission of Christ, and still claim to follow him. That makes no sense.

Bob2 posted this link: Also see: http://www.thenewcovenant.com/nc12.htm

Tom said: Everyone needs to be very careful when they quote sources on the WWW. Why? Because one can most always find a web site that supports their view. But that does not make it correct, nor do many of these sites have proper content or sources.

Web sites are cheap “soap boxes” where anyone can say what they want, regardless of the facts. So it makes sense to use caution.

While this site you posted says: “The New Covenant began after Christ's death, it also says “the New Covenant came into effect after Christ's death. Such language is neither clear nor precise. “Began” versus “Came into effect” are not the same thing. So I don’t think the author has thought very deeply about this topic.

Moreover, the author gives no details as to what he or she means, much less any evidences, proofs, or theological citations. They are making a false assumption and pretending it is true.

So based on this false and ill defined assumption, they continue on, as if their mythical predicate was true. Then they conclude that Jesus must have been teaching OC doctrine, because the NC didn’t start until after the cross.

But they are the ones that have made up this chronology, which is not true. Just because the NC was not ratified until after the cross, it does not follow that Jesus teachings are OC in nature and content. They are not. His ministry officially started the NC, even as his Gospel teaching is NC in nature and purpose.

I repeat: Jesus teachings in the Gospels are NC. I think every scholar in the history of the world would agree on this point. None have taken this absurd position that Jesus taught the OC. It is an outrageous and incompetent error of both history and theology. STOP IT!

Listen to this amateur author that you quoted try to promote their confused insights. No scholar would talk this way.

Question: “Since the New Covenant came into effect after Christ's death, one may ask, "During His earthly ministry, was Christ teaching the New Covenant or the Old Covenant?"

Answer: In fact, He devoted a large portion of His teaching to correcting the wrong thinking of the Jews about the Old Covenant.

Tom said: Both the question, which was leading, and the answer, are WRONG.

Christ is teaching the NC in all four Gospels. He did not “devote a large portion of his teaching to the OC.” His mission was to end the OC and start the NC, which he did.

This is why we see his NC Sabbath introduced at the start of his ministry, (not after the cross), as well as the resultant debates, confusion, and rejection by the leaders. Jesus preached the NC from the start of his ministry, and it led directly to his death by those who defended the OC.

Deny this, and you deny the Gospel, making you a lost man, without any Gospel Hope.

So Bob, I see where you may have learned some of this nonsense about Jesus being an OC teacher. However, you are following the words of those who know enough to make a web site, but not enough to understand the NT or the Gospel correctly.

Don’t follow such confusion. Especially because it is what you want to hear. Those who look to defend their false doctrines will find plenty of reasons. But what is the point? Gospel truth is not to be judged by how many embrace it, or who endorses it.

John 7:13 Yet no one was speaking openly of Him for fear of the Jews.

John 7:46 The officers answered, “Never has a man spoken the way this man speaks.”

John 7:47 The Pharisees then answered them, “You have not also been led astray, have you?

John 7:48 “No one of the rulers or Pharisees has believed in Him, has he?

Each must go to the Gospels and learn about the NC for themselves, including the doctrine of the Reformed Sabbath of Christ. He is the author and the head of the church and its savior. I suggest that you pay close attention to him, because he is the one that hands out Eternal Life. He is the Judge at the 2nd Coming that all will have to give an account.

Anyone that stands in front of Christ at the last Judgment and tells him the NC did not start until after the cross, and therefore the Gospels are not a valid or credible source of NC instruction is doomed.

Anyone that dares tell Christ that there is no Sabbath for the church and that Paul says such and such to prove this point, and that NCT is a wonderful doctrine, blah, blah, blah, is a damn fool. Such careless, self- incriminating words prove that one does not understand the Gospel or NC teaching of Christ.

Rom. 14:10 For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

Matt. 12:35 “The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.

Matt. 12:36 “But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.

Matt. 12:37 “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Those that plan to pass the Judgment and move on to enjoy Eternal Life, had better know what to say and how to say it before the Judgment arrives. This is what the NT teaches.

It also teaches that few in Laodicea could pass the Judgment because they do not understand or embrace the Gospel, even though they think otherwise. But if they really did, they would not all have a very incorrect view of the Sabbath in direct contradiction of Christ, who they claim to follow.

The Adventist Community needs to wake up, learn the Gospel, and prepare for the Tribulation, which could be much closer than we expect.

This is no time for the Advent People to be so confused, deceived, and disoriented about the NC. They need to get back to the genuine fundamentals of the Three Angels Messages, as well as move forward to the 4th Angels Message, and the Reformed, 7th day, Active Sabbath of Christ. There is no time to waste.

Mark 1:15 “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the (NC) gospel.”

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris, for the NC Gospel and Sabbath

bob_2 · 07-28-11 1:03 pm

Tom said: The Gospel Story is NC.

You are right, but before Christ lived his perfect life and died for our sins and was resurrected, there is no Gospel, is there?

bob_2 · 07-28-11 1:50 pm

Tom said:

The Gospel Story is NC.’

Tom the Gospel, Salvation can not be offered unless Christ lives perfectly under the OC there is no salvation if He didn’t accomplish this. Note the conversation

John 4: 21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Last edited by bob_2 (07-28-11 1:51 pm)

bob_2 · 07-28-11 1:55 pm

Also, Tom,

Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

and

Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Not available if Christ sins or does not get raised from the dead. There are things spoken by Christ about a coming kingdom, but He can not offer that if He fails, right??

Last edited by bob_2 (07-28-11 2:11 pm)

bob_2 · 07-28-11 2:20 pm

Tom said:

The very term “Gospel” is a NC term and a very different theological paradigm from the OC. The Gospels records the acts of Jesus, the Son of God, as he introduces the NC to the Jews. The earliest Gospel makes it clear that the NC STARTS WITH JESUS AND HIS GOSPEL TEACHING.
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

and latter in the same chapter it says:

Mark 1 14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near Repent and believe the good news!”

Again, until Jesus dies and resurrected, no forgiveness can be given or finalized.

Last edited by bob_2 (07-28-11 2:21 pm)

tom_norris · 10-13-12 5:55 pm

Question for Tom Norris:

Are you still a christian?
What is your belief in the state of the dead?
How do you see the Sabbath Sunday question?

Michael

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom Norris Answered:

I embrace the Gospel teachings of Christ for salvation, which is the definition of a Christian. So yes, I am “still” a Christian.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … is-SDA.htm

In fact, this is why I cannot support most of what the SDA’s teach; they are not following the Gospel, nor do they correctly understand the teachings of Christ or that of his apostles. While they are correct about a few points, like the fact that Sunday is the wrong day for the Christian Sabbath, and the State of the Dead, they are wrong about the Gospel, as well as the doctrine of the New Covenant Sabbath.

To be an SDA today is to reject the Gospel and misunderstand the NT, which is why I must protest and repudiate most of what the SDA’s teach, like law keeping, tithing, and the IJ, etc. These are false doctrines and so too their featured doctrine of Old Covenant Sabbath keeping, which has no support from Christ. He taught a very different doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath that is unknown to the SDA’s.

See:

The Reformed 7th Day Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

State of the Dead

Although Luther would hotly condemn the modern SDA view of the Gospel and the Judgment, there is a major point of doctrine where Luther and the SDA’s agree. It is the controversial and misunderstood doctrine about State of the Dead.

While most all assume the SDA’s are wrong about this doctrine, they are correct, and so too is Luther, who embraced it long before there were any SDA’s.

Many SDA’s give credit for this doctrinal discovery to George Storrs, James White, and Bate’s, because of their association with the Christian Connection. Luther seemed to play no role.

Note the following SDA view of this doctrinal development:

Deacon Henry Grew of Philadelphia became a believer in conditional immortality while serving as a Baptist preacher. He later wrote a tract on the subject, which was read by George Storrs, a Methodist preacher, in 1837. Storrs then wrote his own tract in 1841, and published six sermons on the subject in 1842. Copies of his six sermons eventually circulated to over 200,000, and even reached England.

Just after this publication Storrs heard Miller’s teachings and became a Millerite preacher himself. He preached to thousands in New York, Indiana, and Ohio. A number of Millerite ministers joined with him in his belief on conditional immortality, and this is how it became associated with the reforming SDA’s, who were all Millerites.

Miller, Josiah Litch, I. E. Jones, and the Signs of the Times all came out against Storrs views on conditional immortality, so his views were a minority within the Millerite Movement.

See Froom, vol. 4, pp. 805-807; Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, vol. 2, pp. 300-315.

Today, because of advanced Lutheran research, the SDA’s are now starting to use Luther, even as they cite Dante, Wycliff, and Tyndale to buttress their correct position about death.

While the SDA’s misunderstand Luther on the Gospel, and many other things, it is a fact that they are in agreement with him about the state of the dead. (Although few know this.) But unless the SDA’s can repent and embrace Luther’s position on the law and the Gospel, it will do them no good. Sinners are saved by the Gospel, not by any belief about the state of the dead.

For the record, here is some more information about Luther. Most people have no idea that Luther has the same exact view as the SDA’s about death. Moreover, most people are very wrong about how they view death. But not the SDA’s; this is one point where they get good marks for correct, solid, Gospel doctrine.

Luther and Death

In Luther’s day, there was great debate about the definition of the soul. In fact, in 1516, an Italian professor that denied immortality of the soul wrote a popular book on the topic. The Inquisition burned the book and repudiated this position.

However, the very next year, 1517, Luther posted his famous 95 Theses. And guess what? Number 27 deals with this topic.

# 27. There is no divine authority for preaching that the soul flies out of the purgatory immediately the money clinks in the bottom of the chest.

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/95theses.htm

From the very beginning of Luther’s Reforms, he understood that the Word does not teach that the souls of the dead are transported anywhere, much less from purgatory. This was only the beginning of his correct position about death that would become more clear and articulated over time.

The immediate cause of Luther’s stand on the sleep of the soul was the issue of purgatory, with its postulate of the conscious torment of anguished souls. While Luther is not always consistent, the predominant note running all through his writings is that souls sleep in peace, without consciousness or pain.

Luther was a great Bible scholar. He concluded that the Christian dead are not aware of anything—they see not, feel not, understand not, and are not conscious of passing events. Luther held and periodically stated that in the sleep of death, as in normal physical sleep, there is complete unconsciousness and unawareness of the condition of death or the passage of time.

For Luther, Death is a deep, sound, sweet sleep. And the dead will remain asleep.

The Lutheran scholar Dr. T. A. Kantonen; in The Christian Hope, 1594, p. 37, likewise referred to Luther’s position in these words:

“Luther, with a greater emphasis on the resurrection, preferred to concentrate on the scriptural metaphor of sleep. For just as one who falls asleep and reaches morning unexpectedly when he awakes, without knowing what has happened to him, ‘we shall suddenly rise on the last day without knowing how we have come into death and through death.’”

Listen to Luther: “We shall sleep, until He comes and knocks on the little grave and says, ‘Doctor Martin, get up!’ Then I shall rise in a moment, and be with him forever.’”

See #34;Auslegung des ersten Buches Mose, 1544 in Schriften, vol. 1, col. 1756; Kirchen-Postille,1528, in Schriften, vol. 11, col. 1143; Schriften, vol. 2, col. 1069; Deutsche Schriften, Erlangen ed., vol. 11, p. 142ff. vol. 41 1525, p. 373.

See: Martin Luther and William Tyndale on the State of the Dead.

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/luther-tyndale.htm

Here is Luther; in 1528, speaking about death in a famous sermon about the “True Bread of heaven.” It is taken from volume III of, The Sermons of Martin Luther, published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, MI. It was originally published in 1907 in English by Lutherans In All Lands, Minneapolis, MN, in a series titled The Precious and Sacred Writings of Martin Luther, vol. 12.

Note Luther’s words:

13. The bread from heaven the fathers ate in the wilderness, as Christ says here, was powerless to keep them from dying; but this bread makes immortal. If we believe on Christ, death cannot harm us; yea, it is no longer death. The Lord utters the same truth in another passage when he says to the Jews: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man keep my Word, he shall never see death.” John 8:51. Here he speaks definitely of the Word of faith, and of the Gospel.

14. But one may say, as did the Jews, who took offense at these words of the Lord: The saints, nevertheless, died, and Abraham and the prophets likewise died. We reply to this: The death of Christians is only a sleep, as the Scriptures everywhere call it.

A Christian neither tastes nor sees death; that is, he is never conscious of any death; for this Saviour, Christ Jesus, in whom he believes, has destroyed death so that he no longer needs to taste it and pay its penalty.

Death is to the Christians only a transition of life, yea, a door to life: as Christ says in John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my Word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.”

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/luther/sermons.vii.iv.html

Luther was obsessed with death. His brother died of Plague, even as death was a very common, feared, and expected event during this time period. So he spoke of death often, along with the resurrection.

For example, in 1532, Luther preached the funeral sermon for Duke John of Saxony. He preached on 1Thess 4: 13-14, a well used text at all SDA funerals.

1Th. 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

1Th. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

1Th. 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

1Th. 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

1Th. 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

1Th. 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Luther went on to compare Christ’s death with ours, and concluded that ours was nothing more than sleep.

In fact, Luther coined a new phrase for those who died in Christ. He called them “holy sleepers.” Christ death was the real death, while ours is only sleep. For Luther, Christ’s death devoured all other deaths.

Consequently, Luther told his audience: “Do not look at the dead body of the prince before you, but look at the death of Christ, through which our death is destroyed, so that we see this prince, not lying smelly in the coffin and grave, but in Christ.”

Luther then called him a “holy sleeper.” One who is saved by the Gospel, awaiting the resurrection.

Luther went on to say that our physical death is a “baby death;” it is only half a death. Thus, Luther said that “we shouldn’t even call them dead people-- but sleepers, in such a deep sleep that they won’t even dream.”

Cambridge Companion to Martin Luther, Edited by Donald K McKim, Cambridge University Press 2003, pp 145-146, by Fred Meuser

Luther & the SDA’s

While Luther and the SDA’s agree about the doctrine of soul sleep, he totally refutes their view of the Gospel, which is a core doctrine that defines Protestant theology. Unless the SDA’s can repent of their many errors, like the IJ, Tithe, and Old Covenant Sabbath Keeping, they are doomed. Their few correct positions will not save them.

I hope this answers your questions,

Tom Norris for All Experts.com & Adventist Reform

Adventists for Tomorrow

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