Leaving the SDA Church

tom_norris · 09-04-14 10:19 am

SDAism and Bondage

Dear Sister Patricia:

I, too, have gotten out from under the bondage of SDAism. I would never have thought I was in bondage until I became free in Christ! Now I realize that SDAism tries to give glory to the Old Covenant. They do this by promoting Old Covenant practices such as food laws and 7th day Sabbath keeping. The Old Covenant served its purpose to lead to Christ. "Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian" (Gal. 3:23-25 NIV). We are no longer under the law. That passage refutes SDAism use of the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant's glory has faded.

"Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!" (2 Cor. 3:7-11 NIV).

The Old Covenant and all its trappings was transitory. It's gone. Yet SDAism tries to bring that faded glory back! In effect SDAisn denies the New Covenant has surpassed it. Why? Because "...their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away." (2 Cor. 3:14 NIV). SDAs will never understand the great glory and freedom that we now enjoy in Christ.

What I wanted to ask you is if you know how SDAism went so Old Covenant? I mean they are very works oriented. The SDA leaders seem to promote Old Covenant works over New Covenant grace, why? My thought is that they can control their members better by putting them under law making them afraid that they will lose their souls if they do not do whatever the SDA leaders say. What do you think?

Thank for all you do.

Marie

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Answer:

Hello Sister Marie,

Thank you so much for your question. I am praising God with you for your deliverance from bondage. Like you, I did not know I was in bondage even though I had no security of salvation and the focus was constantly on my behavior. Once I studied and understood the New Covenant, I was able to walk away from the church and the Sabbath with more love for the Lord than I had ever experienced before. It's so amazing how falsehood just jumps out at me now. I continue to praise God every day! He is awesome!

Regarding your question as to why the SDA church is so Old Covenant, I too believe that control is the emphasis. I would go so far as to say that they are more interested in the "tithes and offerings" than souls. If they loved souls they wouldn't lie to them about how to be saved by preaching a different gospel which is no gospel at all.

The New Covenant permits believers to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit for direction in life. The New Covenant allows the believer to decide what to give and then give it cheerfully. The Old Covenant demands a tenth . The SDA church along with other churches have twisted the tithe to mean MONEY when money was not involved. The Israelites were instructed to tithe food and animals and according to the Bible, they even ate their tithe.

Leviticus 27:30-32 (NIV)
30 "'A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees , belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD.
31 If a man redeems any of his tithe, he must add a fifth of the value to it.
32 The entire tithe of the herd and flock--every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd's rod--will be holy to the LORD.

The tithe was used to support the Levites and the temple. After the temple was destroyed, tithing was no longer necessary. Jews today do not tithe because the temple is gone and they say that people who tithe are sinning.

The SDA church doesn't care about the little old ladies on fixed incomes barely making it from month to month. They don't care about single parents trying to raise children alone. etc. All they care about is receiving the money. In fact, the biblical tithe made provisions for the widows and the poor but not the man-made modern tithe.

Further deception by the SDA church teaches the people that they are Modern Israel and it is their duty to perfectly obey the law that ancient Israel failed to obey. To place fear into the people who think about leaving, they are taught that the Sabbath is the seal of God and without the seal they cannot be saved. Those of us who leave are basically declared lost. I truly believe that a lot more people would leave the church if they knew that the Sabbath is not the seal of God. They play it safe by staying even though they are not truly keeping it. The church is based on deception and fear in order to keep the money coming in and to inflate membership numbers.

Here is an example and a link to show you the lengths they go to in order to strangle hold people into tithing. Ellen, their prophetess, gave instruction that before a sick member is prayed for , the member's tithe is to be checked and to also check to see if the sick person had been a trouble maker in the church. I guess if no record of tithing was found, no prayer would ascend for the sick! It's all about the money!

http://notesfromdennisfischer.blogspot. … gs-on.html

I believe the SDA church would be hard pressed to give up the demands of the Old Covenant tithing system and depend on people giving freely and cheerfully. I believe this position undermines the power of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers and what God can do through and for His church. When I first became a conference employee back in the 70's, my tithe along with all of the other employees tithes, were automatically deducted from our salary and credited to the Conference church. We were denied the opportunity to return our tithe. Finally someone threatened them with the legal ramifications and it stopped. Then they decided to audit every worker's tithe record in the various churches because not returning the tithe would be grounds for termination. It's all about the money.

In my opinion, another reason for staying Old Covenant is that the Old Covenant gives leadership the ammunition to keep the people in line regarding their giving and the keeping of the 7th day Sabbath through Bible verses (you are cursed with a curse; remember the Sabbath day..), through guilt and through fear (God will withhold His blessings if you don't...).

So what is the people's reward for living in guilt and fear? They get to believe that they are the remnant; They get to believe that they are the only church on earth that has the truth, and they get to believe that they are the only ones who keep ALL of God's commandments including the 4th. To me, this breeds the arrogance that we experience when trying to share the Gospel with those who know it all but they honestly don't have a clue.

A further entrapment that I see of Old Covenant mentality is that when John uses the word "commandments" (in the books of John and Revelation) SDAs believe that John is referring to the Ten Commandments. They will not accept any other explanation. They argue that the Ten Commandments have to be kept because of .....

Revelation 22:14 (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments , that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

If you don't keep the Ten, then you won't get in! The truly sad part is that the people are being deliberately deceived and don't even know it. The deliberate deception is truly what bothered me the most after discovering the Gospel and looking back. To think that they deliberately misinterpreted Scripture and pieced texts together like a jigsaw puzzle to prove their doctrines was a hard pill to swallow.

Lastly, I believe they have entrapped themselves to the Old Covenant by naming the church after the 4th Commandment, which is part of the Old Covenant that was given specifically to the Israelites -- Seventh-day Adventists. Currently, they defend their name and the Sabbath at all costs and to change to the New Covenant would cause another embarrassment tantamount to the 1844 debacle. They would have to totally restructure, change their name, surrender some of their peculiar doctrines like the Investigative Judgment and then admit that they and their prophet have been wrong all these decades. I am certain they would not welcome this kind of exposure. A name that is not one of their foundational doctrines would have allowed them to transition less conspicuously if they were so inclined to make the change.

Marie, the above statements are some of my personal thoughts regarding why I believe SDAs live under the Old instead of the New. The bottom line and to conclude, is the New Covenant takes away the SDA shackles of control because IF the people ACCEPT the Gospel, they are FREE to be led by the Spirit instead of the law and self-effort. They would understand that they are only accountable to their MASTER and not an institution.

I would love to hear more about your freedom and the indicators that led to it. May God continue to bless you in your walk with Him.

Patricia-Allen, former SDA

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ondage.htm
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-12303 … -Allen.htm

bob_2 · 09-06-14 1:08 am

To Marie: I highly recommend the book by Fred Zaspel and Tom Wells, "New Covenant Theology".

http://www.amazon.com/New-Covenant-Theo … t+Theology

At one time in my spiritual journey, I thought it was the argument of grace and law that had to be settled. It is not because the New Covenant still has Christ's Law as pointed out by Paul in 1 Cor 9:21. New Covenant Theology is not antinomian. There are still behavioral standard. Jesus saves, and the Holy Spirit empowers to keep these behavior standards, and

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Don't let some elderly Baptist lady with bad manners claim that I cannot be critical or reprove her because she was saved at 11 years of age and my criticism of her ill behavior is the sin, not her behavior.

tom_norris · 11-26-14 3:53 pm

Marie,

You are very correct to understand that the modern SDA’s are Old Covenant, NOT New Covenant. They have turned their backs on the Gospel many times, and they continue to do so today. Which is why they are self-destructing for all to see.

Long ago, the Adventists were honest searchers for Gospel truth. But that is not the case today. Not only are they full of errors, having misled and deceived millions about Ellen White and church history. They refuse to admit to any serious doctrinal errors, even as they teach Pluralism in order to slow down the rush for the exits. When it comes to understanding the Bible, or church history, the SDA’s are not to be trusted.

The SDA’s teach impossible theology such as the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment and Old Covenant Tithing. They are very legalistic, mimicking the Jews in many ways, as well as the church of Galatia that became so confused about the Law and the Gospel.

In fact, the SDA’s are the closest denomination to Judaism, which explains why they are so hostile towards the Gospel. They love the Moral Law above the Gospel, only giving lip service to the New Covenant, which they do not understand correctly, just like those in Galatia.

Although 10 million members have left the Denomination in the last 40 years, their leaders still refuse to admit to having any false doctrines, which is beyond absurd, arrogant, and irrational. They are a hard case, like the Judaizers in the NT. Let all beware the SDA’s.

Marie asked: What I wanted to ask you is if you know how SDAism went so Old Covenant? I mean they are very works oriented. The SDA leaders seem to promote Old Covenant works over New Covenant grace, why? My thought is that they can control their members better by putting them under law making them afraid that they will lose their souls if they do not do whatever the SDA leaders say. What do you think?

Tom Norris replied: The Advent Movement was originally Protestant. William Miller was a Baptist. Adventism was a New Covenant movement, not an Old Covenant one. There was no tithing, much less Jewish Food laws or Old Covenant Sabbath keeping.

More than that, the Adventists had some serious, necessary, Gospel Truth about the pre-millennial Second Coming, which was not only correct, --it has since been adopted by every Protestant Church and denomination in the world. So there is truth in Adventist theology, and no one should think otherwise.

Everyone needs to understand that 1840’s Adventism did not start out as an Old Covenant paradigm. Moreover its foundational point, the pre-millennial doctrine of a visible Second Coming, was so correct, that every denomination today now accepts what they once thought heresy.

William Miller’s once radical views about eschatology are mainstream today, and few give any credit to the Adventists for pushing eschatology forward. Regardless, every Protestant church today embraces the main point of historic Adventism.

However, because the SDA’s promoted the 7th day as the New Covenant Sabbath, (1847) they soon fell under the Law of Moses and the Old Covenant. Law, law, law was what they promoted. This was a great mistake, one that the apostolic church also made. (Which is to say, if Peter and James can become legalistic, having to be reproved by Paul, so too the SDA’s.)

Unfortunately, when Ellen White and others reproved the SDA’s for their legalism in 1888, they doubled down on the Old Covenant law, which was a big mistake. This was their downfall in Battle Creek and again in Takoma Park. The SDA’s have been acting like the 1st century Jews that killed Christ. They refuse to let go of the Law and fully believe the Gospel. This is why they are self-destructing.

SDA’s Reject New Covenant

In the mid-1880’s, EJ Waggoner, a second generation SDA, read Martine Luther’s Galatian Commentary. This opened his eyes to the Gospel, and he soon realized that the SDA’s had fallen under the Old Covenant law, just like the apostolic church.

Waggoner, supported by Ellen White, tried to correct this serious and systemic error in 1888. His work of Gospel reform inside the SDA church started a great debate that split the 19th century church, and sent it into a great schism, driving it out of Battle Creek, Michigan to relocate in Takoma Park, Md.

Here is the problem; unlike in the early church, the SDA leaders, led by Uriah Smith, refused to give up their Old Covenant doctrines and views. Although Ellen White supported Waggoner’s Gospel point of view, both were exiled from Battle Creek in order to defeat Gospel Reform.

This failed Gospel debate exposed SDA theology as Old Covenant and outdated, and thus most SDA’s in Battle Creek, including many leaders like Kellogg and EJ Waggoner, - left the church. This is why the SDA’s had to leave Battle Creek, retreating to Takoma Park. Their debates about the Two Covenants had almost destroyed them, and now they were going to try and rebuild their devastated paradigm from a new location.

Unfortunately, the Takoma Park leaders covered up the debate over the Two Covenants, even hiding Ellen White’s large collection of 1888 documents that explained this great fight over the Old and New Covenants. The leaders fabricated a sanitized and false version of this debate so they could indoctrinate the 20th century church, leading it away from the New Covenant and deeper into the Old. Mission accomplished.

Once in Takoma Park, the SDA’s, once again, became so legalistic, that by the 1970’s, Gospel Reform broke out, this time led by Dr. Desmond Ford who played the same reforming role as EJ Waggoner had done a century before. And with the same sad consequences. Glacier View was a repeat of 1888.

Dr. Ford was exiled from the church in 1980 for pointing out the error of the IJ and for promoting New Covenant reforms. Like in Battle Creek, such Gospel Reform was not welcome by the Takoma Park leaders. As a result of this stubborn error by the SDA leaders, millions and millions of loyal SDA’s left the church. And today, the SDA’s cannot grow, due to their Old Covenant confusion and gross legalism.

At some point, unless the SDA’s repent for what they did to EJ Waggoner and Ellen White in 1888, as well as to Dr. Ford in 1980, they are cursed and doomed.

Today, the only hope for the SDA’s is for them to repent and embrace the New Covenant with both hands. Christians are not, not, not, under the Old Covenant, nor are Christians under the Law of Moses, or the 4th Commandment as the SDA’s incorrectly teach. (While there is a New Covenant Sabbath, and it can only be on the 7th day, the SDA’s have the wrong doctrine. Correct day, but wrong teaching.)

However, this does not mean they were wrong to declare Sunday a false doctrine. They are correct on this point, and many scholars today are reaching this same conclusion. But what about the 7th day? Is that still the Sabbath in the New Covenant?

Yes. There is a 7th day Sabbath in the Gospels, as taught by Christ. But it is not a resting, non-working Sabbath as the Old Covenant demands and the SDA’s teach. Rather, Jesus teaches an active and working, New Covenant 7th Day Sabbath, not one where it is sinful to work. Too bad that the SDA’s are still stuck under the Old Covenant, unable to understand the Gospel, much less the Gospel Sabbath from the Lord of the Sabbath.

False Sabbath Doctrine

Bob 2 said: To Marie: I highly recommend the book by Fred Zaspel and Tom Wells, "New Covenant Theology".

http://www.amazon.com/New-Covenant-Theo … t+Theology

Tom said: Some SDA’s, in their haste to correctly run away from the Old Covenant Sabbath, have embraced the Every Day symbolic Sabbath of Zaspel and Wells. But there is no such doctrine in either the Old or New Covenants, much less from Christ. So this 1970’s attempt to resolve the Sabbath debate has fallen flat. False doctrine cannot be cured with more false doctrine.

Here is a thread that debunks this false Every Day Sabbath theology.

NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953

As for the correct doctrine of the New Covenant Sabbath: here are some links.

The REFORMED Seventh-day Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

Adventist Community Must Repent

In conclusion, there is no church or denomination in the world today that is correctly teaching the Gospel or the New Covenant Sabbath. Not the Sunday keepers or the SDA’s, much less their critics. They all have a false view of the New Covenant Sabbath (NCS), including this latest fabrication by Fred Zaspel and Tom Wells about an Every Day Sabbath for those that meet on Sunday. Such impossible doctrine should not be called "New Covenant Theology,” but rather, New Covenant Error. (NCE)

When the genuine New Covenant Sabbath (NCS) is rescued from the New Testament and preached, so too the full and complete Gospel, including modern and credible eschatology. But the SDA’s clueless about all this.

The SDA’s were correct to push forward Sabbath Reform. Too bad they stopped short, thinking that the correction from Sunday to the 7th day was all that was necessary. This oversight led them to fall under the Law of Moses instead of the Gospel teachings of Christ, which they do not understand.

It is time for the Advent Movement to repent for being so wrong about the Gospel and the Law all these years, including and especially the Sabbath.

It is time for Adventism to keep pushing 7th day Sabbath Reform forward until this very public and important doctrine resonates, not with Moses, but with the teachings of Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath and the head theologian of the Church.

According to Christ and the genuine Pre-Advent Judgment, all in Laodicea must repent of their false doctrines and embrace Gospel Reform, which includes Sabbath Reform. Such reforms start with the SDA’s.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

I hope this helps those that are looking for Gospel Truth.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform and All Experts.Com

tom_norris · 02-22-15 6:19 pm

Dear Tom,

I am a SDA born and raised for 58 yrs and 3rd generation at that. Lately I have had serious questions regarding my faith.

It is fair to mention that I left the faith in the early 90s seeking a freer existenc and joined a non denomination church. That is where I found Jesus for the first time. Today I am torn, I brought my husband into the church and now I find myself wanting to leave.

I feel like I am in prison. I thought the problem was in EGW and did not want anything to do with her or her writings and that is where I began my search for truth. I have been on many ex SDA websites and just a few days ago I came across yours. How I don't know but what any eye opener you have been to me. I can't stop reading. Thank you so much!

My only problem is I don't know how to unlearn what I have learned. The only Gospel I know is the one I was taught and I always thought it was the protestant gospel.

I never read much of EGW. In grade school and college I was required to read her, but honestly anything I know is mostly from others quoting EGW to me endlessly and college. I have read The Great Controversy, Steps to Christ, Desire of Ages, Pat. and prophs, and Counsels on Diets and foods. That's it! But you are very correct that SDA church has placed her above the bible and held her up as a prophet and this was my problem, I did not read her writings much but I still held her up as a prophet.

Thank you for all you have written on our church history. I am trying to grasp it all and have found myself overwhelmed.

I can go to the EGW estate and find the hidden 1888 manuscripts?

Why haven't others come out with the same findings you have discovered? I never knew it existed until a week ago. I am going to attempt to read them because for my own sake I need to see what you have discovered for myself. I do believe you though.

Thank you for saving me from a dilemma because I was about to leave the church altogether!

What do you think of the Messianic church? If anything...Take care, thank you

Kelley McElroy

Louie · 02-24-15 10:22 pm

To all, this is my first post since 2012. I just thought i would drop in and see how things are progressing.

Hi Kelley, I officially left the SDA church in 1999, but it took many years prior to that letter to clear my brain of the brainwashing I had received for the 40 years while a SDA.

I could go through all the scriptures and arguments former Adventists use to show why they have to leave the church. We have discussed ad nauseam every possible scenario on all the forums that will allow formers to write opinions.

The very simple explanation is the following: In Deut 5 Moses told the Israelites a very interesting fact: "5 Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today." Then he goes on and tells them that God brought them out of Egyptian slavery.

What have we learned form those verses? First the covenant was with Israel, second it was not a covenant that anyone else had, it was special to those who had been in bondage in Egypt. The covenant didn't concern any other nation or people, just all the ones who were in bondage. I submit to you, and anyone who reads this, that being a Gentile the covenant had nothing to do with my ancestry or me. All those laws given only to the Israelites were for them and them only. God has never, in all of scripture, put that covenant with all the rituals on Gentiles.

Now allow me to clarify something very important. Moral laws are for all of God's children; Ritual laws were for only those who God gave them to. Moral laws have to do with how we treat God and our fellow man. Ritual laws like the Israelite weekly Sabbath and the other special laws concern only those they was given to. There were many exceptions to observance of ritual laws like the Levites, the Kings guards and those who marched around Jericho for 8 days in a row. They all technically broke Sabbath law and the Bible notes the special dispensation given to those people. On the other hand moral laws do not have any special dispensation. They are black and white, no excuse and no exception. They will endure until the end of time for Jew and Gentile.

I have asked SDAs over and over to tell me how Gentiles are subject to laws given only to Israelites. Where did this happen? Jesus sure didn't place Gentiles under the old covenant. Paul said in Gal 3 that the law given to the Israelites only lasted until Jesus came. How did it happen that Ellen White and her hierarchy came to the conclusion that Christians have to be under Israelite law? And it is ironical that they also chose to put Adventists under old covenant tithing laws and unclean meat law. Again, those laws were meant for the Israelites only. Not only did they make a doctrine of tithing, they modified it to make it mandatory for all members. God didn't even do that. Only those Israelites who raised crops and produce paid the tax. The Levites paid tithe on the tithe they received and used it to help the poor.

I hope this helps you and anyone reading this to come to the conclusion that we have been duped into believing something that is not scriptural and in my case supporting lies for so may years. Best Regards, Louie bob

tom_norris · 02-26-15 1:56 pm

Lou, nice to hear from you again. You have raised a critical point.

Louie said: I have asked SDAs over and over to tell me how Gentiles are subject to laws given only to Israelites. Where did this happen?

Tom said: Great Question! However, this question cannot be honestly answered by the SDA’s. Their doctrine of the Sabbath depends on the Moral law being required for both Jew and Gentile. To correct this error, is to renounce the 4th Commandment, which they refuse to do. This is why the 1888 debates were so explosive, and why the leaders refused to fully embrace the New Covenant Gospel. They were protecting their incorrect Old Covenant doctrine of the Sabbath, which was their greatest doctrine.

Louie said: Jesus sure didn't place Gentiles under the old covenant. Paul said in Gal 3 that the law given to the Israelites only lasted until Jesus came. How did it happen that Ellen White and her hierarchy came to the conclusion that Christians have to be under Israelite law?

Tom said: While the early SDA’s made a grave error to embrace the Old Covenant Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, this mistake was discovered and addressed during the 1888 period. This is the question that EJ Waggoner put to Uriah Smith. But Smith claimed that the 4th Commandment is binding on all in the New Covenant. Ellen White strongly and surprisingly disagreed with Smith. Which is why all this was covered up in Takoma Park.

During the 1888 debates, the book of Galatians took center stage as Waggoner, Jones, and Ellen White tried to move the Adventists forward to the New Covenant. They failed. And the Battle Creek Empire imploded. The SDA’s went on to hide the story of 1888 and repeat the same mistakes in Takoma Park, suffering the same result, which is schism and self-destruction.

Unless the SDA’s repent of their Old Covenant ways, and fully embrace the NC, they are doomed, and so too all others. The SDA’s must repent for both 1888 and Glacier View, removing all error, replacing it with NC truth, which includes a new and improved doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.

The Error of Sabbath Reform

Contrary to what it may appear today, the Advent Movement was Protestant in nature. As the Three Angels Messages developed, the error of Sunday was discovered. This resulted in the SDA’s promoting the 7th day Sabbath, which in trurn, led them into defending the Moral Law, along with many others that also supported the validity of the 10 Commandments, (except for the 4th Commandment.)

However, instead of placing themselves under the “Law of Christ,” and under the 7th day Sabbath doctrine of Christ, the SDA’s placed themselves under the Law of Moses and the 4th commandment. This great mistake is destroying the Advent Movement.

As early Sabbath reform moved forward, the SDA’s focused on the Law, not the Gospel, which they did not clearly understand. Thus they embraced many Old Covenant doctrines, including the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, the Friday preparation day, tithe, and Jewish Food laws. So as time went on, the SDA’s became more and more Old Covenant. Uriah Smith was the champion of such legalistic theology, and he pushed the denomination into overt legalism, which proved to be catastrophic. After 1888, he and Ellen White became theological enemies, which situation was never resolved.

By the mid 1880’s, it was clear to some SDA’s, that a horrible theological mistake had taken place about the Two Covenants and the Sabbath. This correct analysis by Waggoner and later by Ellen White is what caused the great 1888 debate and subsequent schism.

While the SDA’s were 100% correct to declare Sunday a false doctrine, their proposed solution was only half true. Instead of finding the correct, New Covenant, 7th day Sabbath as taught by Christ in the Gospels, they embraced the Old Covenant Sabbath Law of Moses. This doctrinal error has nearly destroyed them. And unless they repent, it will.

I repeat: A false view of the Sabbath was the original cause for the demise of the Battle Creek SDA’s. And it is still the problem today, blocking any doctrinal progress within Adventism. Unless the SDA’s can repent for their OC Sabbath views, and transition to the NC Sabbath, as taught by Christ in the Gospels, they are doomed like the Jews, and for the same reason.

Everyone in Laodicea is directed by Christ to repent of his or her false doctrines, including the Sabbath, which no denomination has correct. The Gospel is a New Covenant doctrine, not an Old Covenant one. The SDA’s need to repent and grasp this theological fact. Fail to understand this critical point, and little will make sense.

Let everyone understand: the Advent Movement was not a scam. It held, and still holds, much eschatological truth. In fact, the SDA’s always taught that a new and improved Advent Message would come into view at the end of time. It was called the 4th Angels Message, based on Rev 18. This is where the Advent Community must migrate. Now.

Today, it is time for Adventism, which is based on the OC errors of the 3rd Angels Message, to repent and embrace the 4th Angels Message, which is a NC paradigm. NC Adventism is the only solution for the entire Laodicean Church.

It is time for New Covenant Adventism, which includes the active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform / New Covenant Adventism

bob_2 · 02-26-15 10:00 pm

Tom, you strain to make the Gospel include the Sabbath, when it was fulfilled by Christ. What is more important, a holy day, or our Savior. Note this prophecy in Isaiah about Christ fulfilling the Sabbath when he came:

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Then Jesus offers SOUL REST in

Matthew 11:28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

The soul rest is forgiveness of sins, not physical rest. Notice also in

Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Jesus was under the Mosaic Law until His crucifixion as this verse in Luke shows. Isaiah spoke of the Messiah's rest would be glorious and here you, Tom, are still talking about a physical day and physical rest. In the New Covenant, with better promises, this was one of the better promises the New Covenant would have.

Hebrews 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

In Hebrews 4:7, God wanted to make sure that New Covenant Christians understood this and consecrated another day, calling it "Today", referring to forgiveness of sins possible any day, Jesus is available as our Advocate at all times. We didn't have to wait for a specific day, or festival. The New Covenant, began at his Crucifixion, not His birth. Have you not read when he started it or gave the ordinances for the New Covenant.

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

You mock the New Covenant as I point this out to you, as and "everyday Sabbath". Mock all you want, but the Holy Scriptures when read with discernment, point to the TRUTH.

Last edited by bob_2 (02-26-15 10:05 pm)

Louie · 02-26-15 10:31 pm

tom_norris wrote:

Lou, nice to hear from you again. You have raised a critical point.

Hi Tom, I am glad you are staying around to keep the site active. It is sad that more SDAs do not cherish their church enough to come to the forums to defend it and proselytize.

Louie said: I have asked SDAs over and over to tell me how Gentiles are subject to laws given only to Israelites. Where did this happen?
Tom said: Great Question! However, this question cannot be honestly answered by the SDA’s. Their doctrine of the Sabbath depends on the Moral law being required for both Jew and Gentile. To correct this error, is to renounce the 4th Commandment, which they refuse to do. This is why the 1888 debates were so explosive, and why the leaders refused to fully embrace the New Covenant Gospel. They were protecting their incorrect Old Covenant doctrine of the Sabbath, which was their greatest doctrine.

SDAs will argue until death that the 4th commandment is a moral requirement. Everyone else knows that it was a ritual command. It has nothing to do with how we treat our God and fellow man. God has never given permission to break a moral law, we cannot say that about the Sabbath law. God has given dispensation in several instances found in the Bible. Jesus broke the Sabbath.

Louie said: Jesus sure didn't place Gentiles under the old covenant. Paul said in Gal 3 that the law given to the Israelites only lasted until Jesus came. How did it happen that Ellen White and her hierarchy came to the conclusion that Christians have to be under Israelite law?
Tom said: While the early SDA’s made a grave error to embrace the Old Covenant Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, this mistake was discovered and addressed during the 1888 period. This is the question that EJ Waggoner put to Uriah Smith. But Smith claimed that the 4th Commandment is binding on all in the New Covenant. Ellen White strongly and surprisingly disagreed with Smith. Which is why all this was covered up in Takoma Park.
During the 1888 debates, the book of Galatians took center stage as Waggoner, Jones, and Ellen White tried to move the Adventists forward to the New Covenant. They failed. And the Battle Creek Empire imploded. The SDA’s went on to hide the story of 1888 and repeat the same mistakes in Takoma Park, suffering the same result, which is schism and self-destruction.
Unless the SDA’s repent of their Old Covenant ways, and fully embrace the NC, they are doomed, and so too all others. The SDA’s must repent for both 1888 and Glacier View, removing all error, replacing it with NC truth, which includes a new and improved doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.

I know you have a great knowledge of Adventist history and I respect your dedication to to set Adventism on a true path. Ellen may have disagreed with Smith, but her previous writings on the subject included the direction of her angel. The angel told her things that would disagree with her stand in 1888. Ellen couldn't have it both ways. Either she was wrong in thumping Sabbath, tithing and unclean meat laws in her writings of wrong during the 1888 conference. Either way, her writings cannot be trusted. She had to be a false prophet. I have many other issues with her works.

The Error of Sabbath Reform
Contrary to what it may appear today, the Advent Movement was Protestant in nature. As the Three Angels Messages developed, the error of Sunday was discovered. This resulted in the SDA’s promoting the 7th day Sabbath, which in trurn, led them into defending the Moral Law, along with many others that also supported the validity of the 10 Commandments, (except for the 4th Commandment.)

Well, I have to disagree with that statement. There is nothing "Protestant" about the false premise Adventism began its journey. That, of course, is the Investigative Judgment doctrine. Yes, trying to substitute Sunday for the Israelite only Sabbath was a great mistake for mainline Christianity. It cannot be proven that God has ever given Christians a special day.

However, instead of placing themselves under the “Law of Christ,” and under the 7th day Sabbath doctrine of Christ, the SDA’s placed themselves under the Law of Moses and the 4th commandment. This great mistake is destroying the Advent Movement.

"Instead"? There is no place in the four Gospels indicating Jesus was trying to create a "New Covenant" Sabbath. He even told us He didn't come to abolish the law or change it. How can you try to tell us that He was creating a New Covenant day of rest? Certainly that concept didn't carry through with the Apostles. They sure didn't expound on the idea.

As early Sabbath reform moved forward, the SDA’s focused on the Law, not the Gospel, which they did not clearly understand. Thus they embraced many Old Covenant doctrines, including the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, the Friday preparation day, tithe, and Jewish Food laws. So as time went on, the SDA’s became more and more Old Covenant. Uriah Smith was the champion of such legalistic theology, and he pushed the denomination into overt legalism, which proved to be catastrophic. After 1888, he and Ellen White became theological enemies, which situation was never resolved.

So sorry they still do not understand. Ellen and Uriah may have been enemies, but Ellen never tried to go back and tell the flock she was wrong from the beginning. Funny how people will still today fall for such a scheme.

By the mid 1880’s, it was clear to some SDA’s, that a horrible theological mistake had taken place about the Two Covenants and the Sabbath. This correct analysis by Waggoner and later by Ellen White is what caused the great 1888 debate and subsequent schism.

What a shame the whole thing didn't dissolve.

While the SDA’s were 100% correct to declare Sunday a false doctrine, their proposed solution was only half true. Instead of finding the correct, New Covenant, 7th day Sabbath as taught by Christ in the Gospels, they embraced the Old Covenant Sabbath Law of Moses. This doctrinal error has nearly destroyed them. And unless they repent, it will.

I agree with half of your statement. Actuall Jesus was teaching real OC Sabbath. Jews had perverted the day.

I repeat: A false view of the Sabbath was the original cause for the demise of the Battle Creek SDA’s. And it is still the problem today, blocking any doctrinal progress within Adventism. Unless the SDA’s can repent for their OC Sabbath views, and transition to the NC Sabbath, as taught by Christ in the Gospels, they are doomed like the Jews, and for the same reason.

Again I repeat, there is no NC Sabbath. There is no teaching to ever prove such thing. It is a figment of your imagination and will go nowhere because cannot prove such a change.

Everyone in Laodicea is directed by Christ to repent of his or her false doctrines, including the Sabbath, which no denomination has correct. The Gospel is a New Covenant doctrine, not an Old Covenant one. The SDA’s need to repent and grasp this theological fact. Fail to understand this critical point, and little will make sense.
Let everyone understand: the Advent Movement was not a scam. It held, and still holds, much eschatological truth. In fact, the SDA’s always taught that a new and improved Advent Message would come into view at the end of time. It was called the 4th Angels Message, based on Rev 18. This is where the Advent Community must migrate. Now.

Sorry, it was a scam just as was Millers second coming. The truth was evident and those of that movement knew what mainline Christianity was from the Bible. SDAism started out a scam. They started out with the door of salvation being closed and the false IJ plus the immediate coming of Jesus. It was all a scam just as were all of the other movements coming out of the 19th century.

Today, it is time for Adventism, which is based on the OC errors of the 3rd Angels Message, to repent and embrace the 4th Angels Message, which is a NC paradigm. NC Adventism is the only solution for the entire Laodicean Church.
It is time for New Covenant Adventism, which includes the active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
I hope this helps,

It helped me to review the real truth and I surely hope it inspires you to restudy scripture.

tom_norris · 02-27-15 4:21 pm

Kelley said: I am a SDA born and raised for 58 yrs and 3rd generation at that. Lately I have had serious questions regarding my faith.

Tom replied: The vast majority of SDA’s are angry and confused about their faith. Millions have left the church as a result. Unless there is a solution to all the debate about Ellen White, the Advent Movement is doomed.

Kelley said: It is fair to mention that I left the faith in the early 90s seeking a freer existence and joined a non-denominational church. That is where I found Jesus for the first time.

Tom said: Many have had to leave the SDA’s in order to find the Gospel. Thankfully, Dr. Ford has helped legions understand that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus, not by works of the Law.

However, this correct Gospel formula conflicts with Traditional SDA doctrine, including the Sabbath. Which causes more unresolved debate and schism, casting doubt on the entire validity of the Advent Movement, including the doctrine of the Sabbath. Thus the Adventist Community is caught in a cycle of cognitive dissonance that only gets worse as the Gospel is better understood.

GNU
http://www.goodnewsunlimited.com

Leaving the SDA Church
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=233

It is imperative for the SDA’s to better understand the Gospel and the New Covenant Sabbath. While they did get the day correct, the 7th, they failed to comprehend Jesus’ active, working Sabbath. They also failed to understand that Christ does not teach obedience to the 4th Commandment as they have claimed all these years. This error is as bad as the fraud about Sunday, and thus easily disproven.

Because the SDA’s have the wrong Gospel, they also have the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath! Without making this paradigm shifting correction, they cannot hope to go forward to prepare the world for the 2nd Coming. They are useless and confused without the genuine Gospel.

Fortunately, there is a New Covenant, 7th day Sabbath waiting for the SDA’s to discover. But it is only for those that honestly embrace Christ his genuine Gospel teachings.

The Reformed / NC Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

Jesus Fulfilled Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953

Kelley said: Today I am torn, I brought my husband into the church and now I find myself wanting to leave. I feel like I am in prison.

Tom replied: Millions have felt this way, --and have left the church.

While my name is still on the books as a member, I refuse to take part in so much error and false doctrine, much less support a false Gospel with tithe. Old Covenant Adventism does not mix with New Covenant Adventism. The former is fatal, while the latter represents Eternal Life.

The SDA’s have confused Moses for Christ. They teach Old Covenant, Law based, religion when they should be promoting the New Covenant teachings of Jesus, also known as the “law of Christ.”

Gal. 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

The object of Adventist Reform is to move the confused and legalistic SDA Community forward to New Covenant Adventism. This is the only solution for the SDA’s. They have tried the law over and over and it always ends in disaster. Old Covenant Adventism must be replaced with New Covenant Adventism. (This is what the Pioneers referred to as the 4th Angels Message.)

Kelley said: I thought the problem was in EGW and did not want anything to do with her or her writings and that is where I began my search for truth.

Tom said: Yes, many, if not all, think Ellen White is the problem. But this is not true. It is the White Estate that is the problem. They have fabricated a false, legalistic, version of Ellen White, and relentlessly promoted this fraud for generations.

While the critics have had a great time attacking Arthur White’s false creation, they too have been fooled by the White Estate. They have been attacking shadows all this time, even as the apologists have been defending shadows. Which is why nothing makes much sense from either side.

Naturally, with so many books published in her name, and by her Publisher, - everyone assumes Ellen White’s life story to be true and correct, even though there are some glaring conflicts that never seem to be resolved. Here is the problem; her official story is not, not, not true or historically correct. The real Ellen White of history is very different from what all SDA’s have been indoctrinated to believe. Surprise!

The Ellen White of the White Estate is a fictional character.

Let everyone understand; Ellen White’s official, public story is a manipulated and known fraud. Traditional, Takoma Park Adventism is based on the suppression of Ellen White’s writings in the White Estate, not on the careful or honest reading of her works.

Glacier View could not have taken place if people knew the real Ellen White, which is why the White Estate was hiding thousands of her most theologically charged documents during Dr. Ford’s trial. The White Estate has been hiding the real Ellen White all these years, not honestly explaining her views. Such behavior is outrageous and will not stand.

I repeat: Glacier View, and the 27 Fundamentals that followed, was based on the fraud in the White Estate and the leaders knew this fact in 1979. Which is why they are still covering up this massive fraud today, pretending it never took place.

Here is the core problem for SDA’s: the false version of Ellen White is causing so much confusion, debate, and schism that the SDA’s are self-destructing over Ellen White. This nonsense has to stop. The truth about Ellen White must be told, regardless if we like it or not. History is what it is, not what we want it to be.

The real Ellen White has been hidden from the Adventist Community. She is waiting for justice to allow her to speak. Waiting for the SDA’s to become honest and repent for what the leaders have done. How much longer must we all wait until the truth is told about Ellen White and her views?

Kelley said: I have been on many ex SDA websites and just a few days ago I came across yours. How I don't know, but what any eye opener you have been to me. I can't stop reading. Thank you so much!

Tom said: The Internet is full of many sites condemning and defending Ellen White. But none of them have the full, honest, story, including the White Estate, which is the real cause of all this confusion and chaos about Ellen White.

Because I am the one that caught Arthur White hiding Ellen White’s story in the White Estate, I have a duty to tell the truth about this crime. Especially because the church leaders want to cover up their massive fraud and pretend all is well.

Moreover, it was not just the White Estate that hid the story of 1888. It was really the General Conference. Consequently, there are thousands of official GC documents sitting in the Archives that also give stunning details about the great fight between Ellen White and Uriah Smith. And it is a very different story from the official version.

Without this massive amount of hidden documents and suppressed history, no one can know what really happened in Battle Creek, much less what Ellen White said about all this. Which is why this material was hidden in the first place. But I have read it all. So I know the facts. Tom Norris is telling the real story about Ellen White, which is shocking to both apologists and critics alike.

When this “eye-opening” story was first told online, many could not believe it. But after much discussion about the facts, it became clear that something is very wrong in the White Estate. When the church leaders started shutting down websites and censoring Tom Norris, it became even more evident that the charges of fraud may be true. Thus many have had the same reaction about Adventist Reform. They are surprised and stunned.

However, the facts about SDA history and doctrine are not welcomed at the General Conference or the White Estate. The church has worked hard over the past 15 years to silence not only Dr. Ford, but also Tom Norris, the man that caught Arthur White hiding documents in the White Estate and lying about Ellen White’s views. But the Internet makes such censorship impossible today.

Luke 6:43 “For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit.

Luke 6:44 “For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush.

The White Estate is a bad tree that has produced poisonous fruit. Those that eat from it are greatly deceived. They will get very sick and die.

The SDA’s leaders today are not only incompetent, they are also very corrupt. Money, not truth, is what drives this dysfunctional Denomination. At some point, this massive fraud about Ellen White will become known to all; and then this scandal of scandals will be the end of the SDA’s if they don’t own their sins and repent, embracing honest, Gospel Reform.

1Tim. 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil,

Kelley said: My only problem is I don't know how to unlearn what I have learned.

Tom said: In every age, new truths must be met and understood. Just imagine how difficult it was for the Old Covenant Jews to unlearn Judaism and embrace the New Covenant teachings of Christ and his apostles? Many could not do it. The early church also had a very difficult time making this transition, as the book of Galatians underscores.

During the Reformation, there was also much debate and bloodshed over doctrine. While many Catholics rejoiced to hear Luther’s Protestant Gospel, it was difficult for others to unlearn generations of legalistic error in order to embrace something so new and different. Consequently, there was war for the next 100 hundred years.

Tradition often works against the Gospel because the world is evil. What seems like truth, is often far from it. Thus we must be alert to truth and error. Let all pay careful attention to what Jesus teaches about truth.

John 18:37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”

John 3:21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

John 4:23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

John 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

The SDA’s no long comprehend truth, nor do they make it a priority. Rather, they hide documents in the dark, and double-talk. They are great liars.

1John 2:4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Kelley said: The only Gospel I know is the one I was taught and I always thought it was the protestant gospel.

Tom said: All theology is handed down from generation to generation. Thus, most people only know what they were taught within their own traditions. Even those that decide to enter theology as a profession, do so by embracing a certain point of view and then working within that tradition. There is no honest search for truth or Gospel Reform in organized religion today.

As for the definition of Protestant? Few know what that even means today. While the Advent Movement was Protestant, the SDA’s soon lost their way and embraced Roman Catholic error, especially as it related to the Law in Galatians. This error led EJ Waggoner to challenge the church leaders in what has become known as the 1888 debates, which destroyed the Battle Creek Empire. Had the Takoma Park leaders not hidden this part of church history, the modern SDA’s could have avoided repeating the same mistakes of their forefathers.

In order for the SDA’s to go forward today, they must repent of their many errors and better understand the Gospel, as well as the Gospel Sabbath, which is unknown to them as yet.

Law & Gospel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1122

Kelly said: I never read much of EGW. In grade school and college I was required to read her but honestly anything I know is mostly from others quoting EGW to me endlessly and college.

Tom said: The White Estate has done a horrible job explaining Ellen White and her views. They have fooled millions of people into believing their massive fraud, which is being exposed by Tom Norris for all to see. The White Estate is a crime scene. No one should think they can understand Ellen White by reading what has been published. It is going to take a number of new and honest books to fully explain the truth about Ellen White and her views.

Kelley said: I have read The Great Controversy, Steps to Christ, Desire of Ages, Pat. and prophs, and Counsels on Diets and foods. That's it! But you are very correct that SDA church has placed her above the bible and held her up as a prophet and this was my problem, I did not read her writings much but I still held her up as a prophet.

Tom said: There is only so much one can understand from Ellen White’s old books. What she wrote for the 19th century public is not to be confused with her private letters and documents that tell more detail. Moreover, what she wrote after 1888 is dramatically different in theology from her earlier writings. The White Estate has denied this fact because they liked her earlier, legalistic writings over her post 1888 views, which they suppressed.

Kelley said: Thank you for all you have written on our church history. I am trying to grasp it all and have found myself overwhelmed.

Tom replied: You are very welcome. It has taken many decades of serious research to understand Ellen White. It is a very complex story, made almost impossible to comprehend because of the massive dishonesty in the White Estate. But I gained access into the White Estate and thus I am an eyewitness to Arthur White’s fraud and manipulation. I found fraud in the White Estate and confronted Arthur White. The facts will not go away.

What has taken place in the White Estate is shocking, almost beyond belief. But facts are facts, and myths, when exposed by facts, lose their power and hold over people. The fraud in the White Estate will not stand. Arthur White’s view of Ellen White will be exposed as a sham for all to see.

Kelley asked: I can go to the EGW estate and find the hidden 1888 manuscripts?

Tom said: The hidden documents I found in the White Estate have been published, in an almost unreadable format, in 1987. They are also online today. Feel free to ask the White Estate why they were hiding so many of Ellen White’s documents, and why they have never explained what they contain or why they were hidden.

http://egwtext.whiteestate.org/publicat … pagenumber

In addition, there are thousands of additional documents about 1888 in the Archives that have not been published. They too need to become public.

So the real story of 1888 has not been made public, except by Tom Norris online. Nor are there any plans by the church to tell the truth about Ellen White or 1888. The leaders are blind to what condemns them. Regardless, it is time for the Denomination to tell the full truth about church history and doctrine. It will change everything for SDA’s.

Kelley asked: Why haven't others come out with the same findings you have discovered. I never knew it existed until a week ago. I am going to attempt to read them because for my own sake I need to see what you have discovered for myself. I do believe you though.

Tom said: A number of church leaders and scholars knew about the fraud in the White Estate, as well as the discovery of hidden documents in the Archives. But they all worked for the church. They knew they would lose their jobs if they told the truth about this scandal, which was off limits for discussion.

Tom Norris never worked for the Denomination. Thus, as an eyewitness, I am free to speak the truth without fear of losing my job. And I have a duty to do so. Otherwise, no one would have ever known what has been going on in the White Estate all these years. The leaders were never going to confess. But now they have been caught for all to see.

Kelley said: Thank you for saving me from a dilemma because I was about to leave the church altogether!

Tom said: There is no benefit to have ones name on the church books. We are only saved if our names are written in the lamb’s book of life.

Phil. 4:3 Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

When a church group goes bad, like the SDA’s have done, it is our duty to push back and defend the Gospel. If they refuse correction, then honest Christians must leave, or risk being contaminated by a false Gospel.

Today, the Advent Movement is dying, even as the world is getting closer to the great Tribulation. This is wrong. OC Adventism must repent and transition to NC Adventism. This is the only solution. The church needs the truths of the Advent Movement, now more than ever because one day, the world is really going to end.

Kelley said: What do you think of the Messianic church? If anything...

Tom said: Many SDA’s have tried this group, mostly because they meet on the 7th day. However, they are very legalistic, making a great show of the Torah every Sabbath. They also have very confused eschatology to go along with their Gospel confusion, which Paul would not approve. This group has no solution for the SDA’s.

I trust this information will help you better understand the problems of Adventism, as well as the solutions.

Gospel regards,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 03-02-15 10:11 am

Bob 2, a supporter of NCT, said: Tom, you strain to make the Gospel include the Sabbath, when it was fulfilled by Christ. What is more important, a holy day, or our Savior?

Tom said: First, the most important thing is to understand the Gospel teachings of Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath and head theologian of the church.

Mark 6:34 When Jesus went ashore, He saw a large crowd, and He felt compassion for them because they were like sheep without a shepherd; and He began to teach them many things.

Whatever Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, is doctrine for the church. Period! If he teaches that Sabbath is Thursday, or that it has been fulfilled, or that it is now Every Day, so be it. Those that claim to follow Christ, must do so in all things, including whatever he teaches about the Sabbath.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

We can know the details of Jesus "teaching" in Mark 6:34, especially as it relates to the NC Sabbath, by reading the earlier chapters in Mark.

Second, the church has always practiced a weekly Sabbath. Why? Because Jesus practiced this weekly doctrine in the Gospels. Thus, the long history of the church underscores the importance of a weekly Sabbath for the NC Israel of God. If they are wrong, someone must prove it, but that is impossible.

So Bob, why are you trying to pretend that the Sabbath doctrine has not been part of the NC church since its origin? This idea that there is no weekly Sabbath for the church is very recent and heretical. NCT was dreamed up in the 1970’s. It is impossible doctrine.

NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953

Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Wells and Zaspel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1180

Third, it is no strain to show that Jesus often debated and taught about the NC Sabbath. The Jews and Jesus had a long running debate about the 4th Commandment. It was also a favorite topic for Christ all during his ministry. See how early Mark references the Sabbath debate. It started very early in Jesus ministry, right after he selected his apostles.

Mark 1:17 And Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men.”

Mark 1:18 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him.

Mark 1:19 Going on a little farther, He saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who were also in the boat mending the nets.

Mark 1:20 Immediately He called them; and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants, and went away to follow Him.

Mark 1:21 They went into Capernaum; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach.

Mark 1:22 They were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Jesus “new” teaching included his NC view of the Sabbath. He broke the OC Sabbath, and kept doing it, until the Jews silenced him by death. Thus from the very start of his ministry, Jesus promoted his unique, Gospel Sabbath, which angered the Jews.

Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him.”

Mark 2:23 And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain.

Mark 2:24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”

Mark 3:6 The Pharisees went out and immediately began conspiring with the Herodians against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

There is no excuse for anyone to be so ignorant of Jesus Sabbath teaching. The Gospels are full of Jesus NC Sabbath instruction. Apparently few have read the Gospels, otherwise they would know that Jesus did not teach a Sunday Sabbath or obedience to the 4th Commandment. Nor did he teach an Every Day Sabbath, claiming to be the fulfillment of the Sabbath. These myths are not supported by the NT. Those that embrace them, are following a false Christ and a worthless religion.

Moreover, how can any Christian not know that Jesus' Sabbath doctrine sent him to the cross? To deny that the Gospels contain Jesus NC Sabbath instruction, is to deny what Jesus teaches about the Gospel. This is exactly what the Jews did; they hated Jesus doctrine of the Sabbath and thus repudiated Christ and the Gospel. Many are doing the same thing today.

Bob 2 said: Jesus was under the Mosaic Law until His crucifixion as this verse in Luke shows.

Tom replied: This is nonsense. While Jesus was born a Jew under the OC law, he did not remain under it. Jesus’ mission was to teach the Gospel to the Jews, inaugurating the NC and destroying the OC in the process. According to the Gospels, Jesus taught and lived the Gospel before he went to the cross. To deny this historical and theological fact is ludicrous. You need to stop trying to manipulate the Gospel Story to fit your false views. This is no way to find truth.

Bob 2 said: Isaiah spoke of the Messiah's rest would be glorious and here you, Tom, are still talking about a physical day and physical rest. In the New Covenant, with better promises, this was one of the better promises the New Covenant would have.

Tom said: It is best to study the Gospel words of Jesus and understand what he teaches about all things. Isaiah cannot save anyone, nor is he the proper source to learn the Gospel or understand the Sabbath teachings of Jesus. Moreover, it is not safe to try and understand the Gospel from the Old Testament, especially when we can go directly to the NT words of Christ and his apostles for instruction.

Jesus has a lot to say and teach about the 7th day. He never rested on it, nor claimed that he fulfilled it, as some foolishly think today. Everyone needs to learn what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath and stop embracing false views of others. Jesus is the primary source for all Gospel truth, not Moses, Isaiah, Ellen White, Zaspel, or Wells.

Bob 2 said: You mock the New Covenant as I point this out to you, as an "everyday Sabbath". Mock all you want, but the Holy Scriptures when read with discernment, point to the TRUTH.

Tom replied: I mock this false doctrine called NCT, which claims that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath and thus made it into an Every Day doctrine for those that worship on Sunday. Such theology is absurd and must be repudiated by all that value the written teachings of Christ.

NCT FAILS to solve Saturday/Sunday worship issue
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1174

Lou, said: Hi Tom, I am glad you are staying around to keep the site active. It is sad that more SDAs do not cherish their church enough to come to the forums to defend it and proselytize.

Tom replied: The SDA’s have exhausted themselves with decades of debate and schism. Millions have left the church, tired of the endless double-talk that never seems to resolve anything. It is very sad.

Moreover, the modern Adventists lack a credible eschatological message for the 21st century. This stale idea about Sunday laws is a non-starter. The Bible teaches no such ending. So what do they have to offer? Nothing that makes any biblical sense. How can any denomination find new members when they have such useless, incoherent doctrine? They can’t. Finding new members is futile for the SDA’s right now until they can get their own house in order.

Louie said: SDAs will argue until death that the 4th commandment is a moral requirement. Everyone else knows that it was a ritual command. It has nothing to do with how we treat our God and fellow man.

Tom said: The church has always embraced a weekly Sabbath. While the early church met on the 7th day, this changed to Sunday. Regardless, there has NEVER been a time when the organized church denied or repudiated the weekly Sabbath. NEVER!

So let’s not pretend the SDA’s have embraced some wild, crazy Sabbath doctrine. No. Every church and denomination, Catholic or Protestant has a weekly doctrine of the Sabbath, not just the SDA’s.

Good for the SDA’s to stand up and prove that there is no biblical support for the Sunday Sabbath. On this point they were, and still are, 100% correct.

Moreover, in the 19th century, most every denomination was pushing for Sunday blue laws. Why? Because the religious leaders wanted to force people to go to church on Sunday, the “Christian Sabbath.” It was a large, ecumenical, National Movement that helped define the SDA’s, even giving them a sense of arrogance because this is exactly what their eschatology predicted would take place.

So you are very wrong to pretend that “everyone else knows that the Sabbath was a ritual command.” The history of the church shows that both Protestant and Catholics alike, view the Sabbath, meaning Sunday, as a moral law that includes church rituals. Why are you pretending that the SDA’s are strange to also promote a doctrine of the Sabbath; this is normative doctrine in Christian history.

National Sunday Law
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ay-Law.htm

Louie said: God has never given permission to break a moral law; we cannot say that about the Sabbath law. God has given dispensation in several instances found in the Bible. Jesus broke the Sabbath.

Tom said: First, regardless how the Sabbath is viewed, as Moral law or ritual, there is still a 7th day Sabbath doctrine in both the OC and the NC. How that NC doctrine is defined is the issue, - not if there is a Sabbath doctrine or not.

Second, few people know that there were TWO different Sabbath laws in Judaism. One for the people, and another for the Levites. The Jewish priests had permission to break the 4th Commandment on a regular basis. Following this Priestly model, Jesus, the High Priest of God, teaches that his followers are also exempt from the 4th commandment. Thus the NC Sabbath of Christ stands on the Priesthood of Believers, a fundamental point of the Protestant Faith.

Third, Jesus did indeed break the 4th commandment, teaching others to do the same. This is why the Jews were so angry with Christ; he was doing away with the OC Law and the Sabbath, - as they knew it. Including the Leviticial Priesthood and the Temple, replacing it all with the paradigm of faith in Christ that contained an active, working Sabbath.

Louie said: I know you have a great knowledge of Adventist history and I respect your dedication to set Adventism on a true path.

Tom said: Adventism does not exist in a vacuum or stand-alone. Thus it is not enough to just understand the Advent Movement. Rather, one must also understand Judaism, the NT, and the long and complex history of the church.

The fact of the matter is that the Adventists made a major, much needed, correction to eschatology in the 19th century. They invented modern eschatology. No one should ever take that away from them or think that they did not work out a paradigm shifting view of how the world will end.

Thanks to Adventism, every church in the world has since embraced the literal, pre-millennial 2nd Coming of Christ because this is what the Bible clearly teaches. The Adventists stood up for truth at a time when no one supported such strange eschatology. They were correct, not in the setting of time, but in understanding the doctrine of the 2nd Coming as the end of the world.

Louie said: Ellen may have disagreed with Smith, but her previous writings on the subject included the direction of her angel. The angel told her things that would disagree with her stand in 1888. Ellen couldn't have it both ways. Either she was wrong in thumping Sabbath, tithing and unclean meat laws in her writings of wrong during the 1888 conference. Either way, her writings cannot be trusted. She had to be a false prophet. I have many other issues with her works.

Tom said: This idea about Ellen White being like a biblical prophet is false and wrong. The Battle Creek SDA’s did not view her writings, or her visions, as giving her any doctrinal authority and neither did she or her husband. This error and myth came later in Takoma Park. So everyone is going to have to readjust their thinking on this point and many others.

Is Ellen White a true or false Prophet?
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … e-true.htm

Is Ellen White A False Prophet?
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … rophet.htm

Second, Ellen White was theologically wrong many times. But so what? Her role in Battle Creek was not to create doctrine, nor was she the source for any doctrine. James White made that clear to everyone when JN Andrews corrected her about the Sabbath.

Listen to Ellen White speak to this point.

"There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation."

Ellen White, Review and Herald, Dec. 20, 1892

While the White Estate claimed Ellen White was essentially infallible and without error, never changing her positions, this is not true. Nor was this idea held by the Pioneers, much less James or Ellen White.

Third: As for her visions and dreams, some people have such NC spiritual gifts, including people in the 19th century time period. But this does not confer any doctrinal authority, or insure that no doctrinal error is taking place. The White Estate invented this nonsense about Tests of a Prophet to prove Ellen White true. But there is no such test. It is all wrong.

Fourth: I see that you have been indoctrinated to believe the Whites Estate’s false version of Ellen White. For example, you speak of tithe, as if Ellen White had visions to practice and support this doctrine. But in fact the opposite is more true.

D. M. Canright, not Ellen White, designed the tithe doctrine that we know today. And guess what? Ellen White was not in full support. In fact, she refused to fully follow this doctrine, and when asked to do so by the church leaders, she refused. The leaders were outraged.

However, the White Estate suppressed this historic fact. Why? So the church could pretend that tithing is a correct and fundamental Gospel doctrine, when it is not. Tithe in the church is a very false doctrine, and Ellen White was moving away from it.

The Fraud of Church Tithing
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=239

Fifth: It’s not that Ellen White cannot be trusted; it is the White Estate’s story of Ellen White that is false, manipulated, and untrustworthy. The Denomination has not been honest about Ellen White’s writings, role, or doctrinal views. Thanks to a massive fraud in the White Estate, what everyone thinks they know about Ellen White is very wrong and mostly untrue.

It is time for the White Estate to repent and correct the record. Then everyone, both critics and supporters, can focus on understanding the real Ellen White of history.

Louie said: So sorry they still do not understand. Ellen and Uriah may have been enemies, but Ellen never tried to go back and tell the flock she was wrong from the beginning. Funny how people will still today fall for such a scheme.

Tom replied: How do you know anything about Ellen White? Stop trusting the White Estate’s propaganda, assuming it is true. It is not. This is the point. The record upon which you depend to judge Ellen White, SDA theology, and history is contaminated and false. Do you understand this?

Louie said: I agree with half of your statement. Actually Jesus was teaching real OC Sabbath. Jews had perverted the day.

Tom replied: Jesus is a NC figure. He only teaches a New Covenant Sabbath. He is not Moses, and thus he was hardly teaching obedience to the 4th commandment as the SDA’s claim, or a Sunday Sabbath as others assume.

While the Jews perverted most everything, there were correct to understand that the Sabbath was a resting doctrine, not an active one where all manner of activity could take place. They were also correct to understand that Jesus was breaking the 4th Commandment, on purpose for all to see. Those who deny such a Gospel fact will never understand the New Covenant.

John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

Here is where many become confused about the Sabbath. They fail to understand how serious and fatal the 4th Commandment could be for those that lived under the Old Covenant. God made it clear to Moses that death was the consequence of Sabbath breaking. Moses put to death Sabbath breakers. Jesus was sent to the cross for Sabbath breaking. Jesus was indeed breaking the 4th commandment.

Ex. 31:15 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

Jesus was not a Levite. Thus he had no authority to work or heal on the 7th day, much less claim that God works on the Sabbath. The NC requires a different Sabbath from the OC.

Louie said: Again I repeat, there is no NC Sabbath. There is no teaching to ever prove such thing. It is a figment of your imagination and will go nowhere because cannot prove such a change.

Tom said: Wow! You just spit in the fact of Jesus, the Lord of the NC Sabbath. You have apparently never read the Gospels, which contain scores of passages where Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath? Are you sure you want to take the side of the Jews against Christ! Listen to Christ teach the NC Sabbath for all mankind:

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

While the Sunday keepers see the 1st day in this passage, the SDA’s think Jesus is promoting the OC Sabbath of Moses. Both views are impossible. Jesus teaches a NC doctrine of the Sabbath, which is very different from the 4th Commandment.

The Gospels are full of Jesus’ NC Sabbath instruction. One would have to be as blind as the Jews to miss this theological fact.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

The Good Shepherd and the NC Sabbath

John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

While every Christian knows Jesus’ parable of the Good Shepherd, few understand that it is a parable about the 7th day Gospel Sabbath. It is directly connected to the Sabbath debate John 9. The Good Shepherd is the one with the active and working Sabbath. The Jews that refused to embrace Jesus NC Sabbath were blind and sinful. Jesus called them thieves and robbers.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep…

See also:

NC Sabbath
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm

Louie said: Sorry, it (the Sabbath) was a scam just as was Millers second coming. The truth was evident and those of that movement knew what mainline Christianity was from the Bible.

Tom replied: Wow! Since when is the doctrine of the 2nd Coming a “scam”? And when did the doctrine of the Sabbath also become moot? And what is this about “mainline” Christianity? This group always held to a doctrine of the Sabbath. So your bias is showing.

Louie said: SDAism started out a scam. They started out with the door of salvation being closed and the false IJ plus the immediate coming of Jesus. It was all a scam just as were all of the other movements coming out of the 19th century.

Tom replied: First, the Advent Movement was a genuine Christian / Protestant advancement. It was started by a Baptist and then went ecumenical. As for the “shut door” error, Miller had nothing to do with such doctrine, that was the early SDA’s. Regardless, the early church also made the same mistake. So why be so hard on the SDA’s? That is not fair.

Second: Contrary to what the incompetent SDA’s have promoted, there was no IJ in early Adventism. Not until 1857. In fact, there was no IJ whatsoever in the 1st or 2nd Angels Messages, as the blind SDA’s pretend today. The Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message was only the 2nd Coming, and all the Pioneers were united on this point, which will stand forever. The IJ is a great error and scam, and so too tithe and many things that the SDA’s teach.

The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227

Louie said: It (Tom’s post) helped me to review the real truth and I surely hope it inspires you to restudy scripture.

Tom said: When it comes to the Sabbath teaching of Christ, everyone must go back to the Gospels and study what Jesus, the Lord of the New Covenant Sabbath, teaches. It is obviously not about Sunday, nor did he promote the 4th Commandment as they SDA’s claim. And this latest attempt to claim that Jesus “fulfilled” the Sabbath and transformed it into an Every Day doctrine of spiritual rest is also absurd.

So what is the New Covenant Sabbath?

Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Luke 11:10 “For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.

The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

At some point in history, the world is going to end. The Advent Movement emerged to focus on the details of the great Tribulation, which was predicted by Christ. Today, the world is closer than ever to the end. It is time for the Adventist Community to wake up and understand how the final events will actually take place. They need to start by fully understanding the Gospel, which includes the New Covenant Sabbath of Christ.

Luke 21:34 “Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap;

Luke 21:35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth.

Luke 21:36 “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

The SDA’s were correct to expose the Sunday Sabbath as false doctrine. They were also correct to claim that only the 7th day could be the Christian Sabbath. But they misunderstood the Gospel and fell into legalism, thus embracing the Sabbath doctrine Moses, not Christ. This error must be corrected in order to complete Sabbath Reform and push the Advent Movement forward to its final conclusion.

Today, not one church or denomination has the correct doctrine of the New Covenant Sabbath. This is because the Laodicean Church, meaning all denominations, is blind to the genuine teachings of Christ. This is why Christ calls all to repent. They have so much, so wrong, including the doctrine of the Sabbath.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism & Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 07-22-15 11:07 am

Time To Talk About Adventist Reform

Today, the Advent Movement is self-destructing in front of our eyes. It has been doing so ever since the debacle of Glacier View in 1980. The crisis continues because the leaders refuse to honestly address the issues or embrace necessary Gospel reform.

So members continue to leave, and those that stay are forced to call for reform, because the present course is not sustainable. It is a dark time for Adventists because they are no longer seen as credible or even honest, and thus the church is unable to grow. Which is why the Review has been closed down and so too most all of the ABC’s book stores. Few are buying the theological confusion that has come to define 21st century Adventism.

Here is a new blog for Ex- SDA’s, followed by a call for reform from another disappointed SDA trying to save Adventism:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Support For Ex Seventh-day Adventists & Those Considering Leaving.

After writing the blog post "Why I No Longer Attend SDA Churches," many other ex-SDAs or those considering leaving the denomination have contacted me. Many feel judged, unloved, unsupported, and isolated in their journey. I just thought I'd put this page in place for any who want to have a supportive place to share how their journey is going. Please feel free to invite others if you'd like to.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/exsdasupport/

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Conversation: by Mike Manea

What will it take to reawaken a movement within a sizable denomination that has been in a state of dormancy for decades?

There are many conversations currently taking place among Seventh-day Adventists: conversations about women’s ordination, homosexuality, and evolution in our schools, as well as some of the old favorites like the nature of Christ, the nature of sin, standards, music in worship and so on. But there is one conversation that Adventists are not having: mainly that Adventist theology is becoming less and less credible with every year that passes.

There was a time when Adventists placed a high value on having a rational belief system.

We made every effort to offer sensible answers to legitimate questions put forth by critics.

We believed that if Christianity was true, it should be supported by the weight of evidence.

Today, however, it is becoming harder and harder for a rational person to see the logic of our theological framework.

http://bit.ly/sdaconvo-now
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In order for Adventism to survive and prosper, the real issues and problems must be addressed and resolved. The time for double-talk and diversion is over. Ignoring the mistakes of the past will not make them go away, nor will holding on to myths solve anything.

It is time for serious and dramatic doctrinal reform within the Adventist Community. It is time for a new and improved version of Adventism, one that is New Covenant, not Old Covenant. One that the Pioneers would have embraced and so too the Protestant Reformers.

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=982

There is a Gospel version of Adventism waiting to emerge. It will be credible and uniting, re-establishing the Advent brand with eschatological meaning and purpose. Ellen White referred to this time as the 4th Angels Message. This is where the Advent Movement must quickly migrate.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm

tom_norris · 07-24-15 12:58 pm

Sharon Bryan said: Happy Friday everyone! I received this extremely touching message of encouragement I want to share with you all.

"Good Afternoon:

I really wanted to encourage you. I am a SDA Pastor's daughter. I was raised not only in the church but on Adventist College Campuses all my life till a year or so before my marriage. After my marriage for the first time in my life I found myself in a community church. That was over 30 years ago and I want you to know that my experience with the church and a lack of activities for young adults and a serious lack of community service, albiet in another part of the world, has been exactly the same.

But for me it has been worst in the sense that I keep trying for 30 years to correct that wrong and to try through every means possible to do something for the Lord through the church so that I would not have to leave the church. I feel I've wasted my life.

My parents, all of my siblings, my husband, and myself all went to SDA colleges and universities. My point is I know the system and everyone I know and all my network are all products of the system.

My husband and I, in the 80s, started what we thought was an outreach ministry to drug addicts, with the support of the then sitting Pastor and the local Elders. Long story short, when the politics changed (elections at the Conference) the new Conference President wrote us and informed us that when we were ready to give up the rehab center, we could return to the church. We were in utter shock coz my husband was a sitting church elder at the time.

I could go on and on and on, but it won't change anything. I have experienced persecution every year that I lived here for trying to start a youth choir, a youth church, a young adult social club, a scholarship program so our youth can go to Adventist Colleges, a drum band, youth club for the youth after pathfinders who would then leave the church, so I thought a drumband could keep them close..... but it wasn't appreciated and more so none of it was tollerated. Each effort would be undermined and crucified relentlessly until it just couldn't go on.

But I kept going because I foolishly thought that since their own children needed it they would see the need. Not so. I've been black listed throughout the conference. I've stopped attending then would start back. Unlike your experience, there were and are no non-denominational churches to attend. I kept returning because I didn't want to stray too far. I had no where else to go. The worst is that my parents, my siblings, in-laws eventually began to treat me as if it were all in my head and I must be crazy or guilty or have brought all the persecution and rejection all on myself.

Whenever I would visit an SDA campus back to put my children in college, my faith in the church would be renewed. There is a distinct difference between Collegiate Adventism and Community Adventism. COMPLETE DIFFERENCE. The great commision nor the health message, nothing has made it into community churches for the most part. At least from my own experience. The only thing that goes on in this conference is the "swinging door - numbers game". Crusade after crusade. Persons are baptized, they stay for close to a month and then leave, then another crusade and they stay for close to a month then leave and the cycle continues. It is the only outreach, the church goes into the community but only to pass our tracks and invitations to the crusade.

This year, we will leave the drug rehab because we are growing old. I love my church for what we were taught it was established to do, for what they teach us and have us practice when we go to college. But the way I say it is that "the church has left me", I haven't left the church. I am completely lost without a faith community. But I have no where to go, so I'm trying to do something quietly for the Lord with whatever resources he provides for me. I hurt, I ache, I'm in pain but I love the Lord and want to remain faithful to Him.

I'm only telling you ALL THIS so you can know, you are not alone, you are not crazy, you are not over reaching. Don't let the negative voices and the defense, based on guilt, that is thrown at you discourage you. You are blessed to have found a 7th day, non-denominational, community-serving church to not only find fellowship, but to be able to worship and serve the Lord in. You are soooooo blessed.

Please know this and remember God knows our background, our experiences and our hearts. May He always find both our hearts and the many more like us, turned towards Him.

Your sister in Jesus Christ."

https://www.facebook.com/groups/exsdasupport/

tom_norris · 08-02-15 5:09 pm

Tom Norris said: Today, the Advent Movement is self-destructing in front of our eyes. Millions of long time SDA’s are repudiating what they were taught. The teachings of the church no longer make sense to the vast majority within the Adventist Community. Nor do they ring true to those on the outside.

Here is one of many recent accounts from a long time SDA leaving the church. As usual, the Adventists are faulted in general for their legalism, which includes specific criticism about their Old Covenant Sabbath, their primary doctrine.

As knowledge of the Bible and church history increases, so too the complaints about SDA doctrine. Such criticism is legion because the theology of the 3rd Angles Message is no longer credible or honest. While many feel there is some truth within Adventism, (or they would not have joined), it cannot be denied that their teachings are Old Covenant, anti-female, and against the fundamentals of the Protestant Faith.

Consequently, legions have correctly repudiated SDA theology. SDA doctrine, and church history, as taught today by the Denomination, cannot be defended. It is full of error and in need of major reform. How many people need to leave the Advent Movement before those in charge understand that they need to repent and start telling the truth about the Gospel, as well as the history of the Advent Movement?

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=11

http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm

-------------------------------------------

This transitioning SDA wrote:

Hey everyone,

While I've been kinda sitting on the sidelines of this group, wondering how to put my testimony out there, I have to say, it's been great just knowing that there IS a group of people who are also going through the same thing. Thanks for being here!

Leaving a denomination/culture that has basically been your WHOLE LIFE, is...not easy. We all know this. While I grew up SDA, going to the SDA schools, my parents working for the conference, SDA friends and surroundings, etc., I always considered myself pretty "liberal" – I made my own decisions and felt like I had the right to question things (though of course, answers were always given with the SDA-slant, so I didn’t get very far on that…). I had a great relationship with God and didn't feel like a prisoner to anything.

So when I met my now-husband (a non-SDA pastor’s son) and we started discussing different aspects of our beliefs through the years, I had no trouble standing for what I believed, from an SDA-viewpoint, because it was, as I thought I had independently decided, the truth. He was just going to have to go along with it, and because he loved me, he did.

We did the whole Sabbath thing, the camp meeting thing...and he fell in love with Worthington Frichik and haystacks (why not?)

We went to an SDA church and my friends became his friends. But what mattered most was that we loved God and wanted to follow Him. The rest was just the "details" and since he didn't have as strong viewpoints as I did (i.e. what day we went to church), nothing was a real issue.

Through the years through, I realized I was shrugging my shoulders at a lot of things. There were too many grey areas I didn’t know how to explain.

I didn’t know EXACTLY why we couldn’t watch TV on Saturday, or why kicking a ball in the park after church was just fine, though an organized tournament was not.

My mom one time got angry at us for wanting to go blueberry picking on our anniversary – which happened to be on a Saturday, and that took us by surprise.

My husband got sick of Sabbath afternoons spent on family walks, when he really wanted to play tennis or watch a movie or even just go for a run. But somehow putting a racquet in his hand, or placing him at the track or gym…or heaven forbid, in front of a TV was....questionable. We didn’t understand the inconsistency and it started to raise some bigger issues in our discussions.

I also wished he’d get baptized, but that led to the issue of how SDAs handle baptism – why should he be baptized into the CHURCH rather than in Christ? Why did he have to go through a rigorous study and sign a document to 28 fundamental beliefs he didn’t agree with, to qualify? He had a point and I realized I didn’t have an argument.

We decided we needed to study from a FRESH perspective. We were so burdened by our upbringings that we didn’t know where we truly stood, independently, or together.

The big turnaround came about 2 years ago when I randomly Youtube’d something to the effect of SDAs and the Sabbath. That seemed to be one of our main divides.

My husband had always referred to an “everyday Sabbath” and a "new covenant" while I harped about Saturday being the end-all and I hadn’t a clue how he could ignore “Biblical reference” to the law.

The result was a life-changing 1.5 hr video by someone named Chris White. My hubby and I watched it, I took notes, listened with an open heart, and in the end – I couldn’t argue. I was completely stunned by the perspective it brought and I saw so many walls start crashing down around me.

That began a HUGE study into the Bible, unearthing many other viewpoints I had never even considered yet made SO MUCH SENSE. I realized I had WAY more questions from my upbringing that I had realized.

There were too many areas that I hadn’t agreed with but never knew why. Too many areas that didn’t make sense to me, but I had shrugged off. It was terrifying and liberating at the same time. (If you’re interested and open-minded, you can see that same video here:

https://youtu.be/8HpPEdNOyK0 ).

My journey has led to many other Bible studies, videos, articles and…unfortunately, some uncomfortable arguments within my family. I am so sad that they don’t see freedom like I do now. They hold to beliefs they don’t even know why they have. I show them Biblical evidence and they argue with something completely irrelevant. Even the term “freedom” is dangerous, to them. They are too afraid to let go and follow the Holy Spirit.

I actually posted the video on my Facebook two years ago, and my uncle, thinking I was promoting Sunday law (which I am NOT), said that this was a “life or death issue.” He also insisted on coming over to our place and very intensely explaining judgment and the end times…and, I’ll never forget…he closed his Bible and proclaimed that because he’s studied this for so long (with that SDA-slant), he didn’t need to study anymore.

He knew it ALL. And my grandpa, welcoming my husband into the family, mentioned that he was "praying for his family, because surely they had the mark of the beast, going to church on Sunday." (My husband didn't get over that one...)

The ignorance is baffling sometime. It has made my journey to freedom unfortunately somewhat frustrating. But I won't turn back. I understand people are in this group for different reasons. It seems many still hold to some doctrine, but are lacking a sense of community in the SDA church, which has led them to leave. I respect we are all at different points.

I personally have nothing directly against my current SDA church. It’s very small – about 30 of us, and it’s like a family. However, the more I study, the more uncomfortable I get with representing something I don’t actually agree with. I would like to find somewhere else where I don’t have to pretend I’m something I’m not.

Someone at my church said, very matter-of-fact, that Christians who go to church on any day but Saturday, are not real Christians. And things like that, I won’t stand for.

I need to get away from this unhealthy “holier-than-though” viewpoint that the SDA church (not everyone in it, but as a whole), portrays. There are so many good things going on with the church, don’t get me wrong – but there are so many things that I’m just tired of and are preventing me from getting to know who Christ really is.

I'll conclude on another amazing reference that has provided me a lot of guidance, and I’m still studying.

This website: www.sabbatismos.com . It’s set up by some ex-Adventists and deals with the many issues people like us will face, moving from the SDA denomination to a true relationship with Christ. I encourage you to check it out.

Sorry for my long babble – I’ve never been one to explain things “in a nutshell.” But if you’ve read this far – thanks for taking the journey with me.

Name witheld by request.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/exsdasu … 615467687/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/exsdasupport/
---------------------------------------------

Tom said: The “Every Day” Sabbath, (also known as “New Covenant Theology” promoted by Wells and Zaspel) is hardly the genuine New Covenant Sabbath. However, it has been used by many as an escape doctrine from the Old Covenant SDA Sabbath. Thus, while still wrong, it is an improvement over the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Jews, err, I mean, the SDA’s.

NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953

NCT FAILS to solve Saturday/Sunday worship issue
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1174

Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1180

Let everyone understand: The SDA’s were correct to condemn the Sunday Sabbath. There is no such doctrine in the Bible. However, while the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath is correctly based on the 7th day, it is still flat out wrong. The SDA's have embraced the Sabbath of Jesus' enemies, not the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ. This is a huge, fatal mistake, for which they must repent.

The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

This is the challenge for all in Laodicea, including and especially the SDA’s; to find the correct, New Covenant Sabbath of Christ. Sunday is not it. And neither is this idea of an Every Day Sabbath, which Christ never taught. When the Gospel of Christ is fully understood, so too, the Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Luke 6:5 And He was saying to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

At this point, no church or denomination teaches a correct doctrine of the NC Sabbath, including the SDA’s. This major and embarrassing error must be corrected, and the SDA’s were on the right track to get this done. But they slipped on the Law in 1888 and became blind to the Gospel. And so they are today.

The SDA Sabbath must be updated and corrected, brought into the NC so this doctrine can reflect the Gospel, NOT the Old Covenant Law of the Jews. This is the answer. The Advent Movement can only go forward with the NC Sabbath of Christ, not with the OC Sabbath of Moses.

Here is a list of groups that focus on former SDA’s. Many of them have embraced the Every Day Sabbath doctrine as if it were true. But it is not. False doctrine is not the best answer against false doctrine. Rather, it is true doctrine that should be embraced to replace error.

Former SDA’s links:

http://www.formeradventist.com

http://www.exadventist.com

http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org

http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/ … onmag.html

http://www.truthorfables.com/SDA_Directory.htm

http://jimmoyers.com/spirituality/leavinggarden-.html

https://www.youtube.com/user/FormerAdventist

http://arthurandteresabeem.blogspot.com … urney.html

http://www.sabbatismos.com/#sthash.fHPNOqsZ.dpbs

---------------------------------------------------------------------

It is time for the Advent Movement to grow up and became a NC denomination. But they had better move quickly or there will be do denomination left to save.

It is time for New Covenant Adventism, the OC version is not sustainable. it has crashed and burned for all to see.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=11

http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm

tom_norris · 08-05-15 10:06 am

A MESSAGE TO ADVENTIST LEADERS

If you could say something to the leaders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church as they reflect on their quinquennial General Conference session in July of this year, what would you say?

It was my original hope that with the publication of Sabbath in Christ and Cultic Doctrine, the Seventh-day Adventist church would move away from some of its cultic beliefs. When I first published Cultic Doctrine in 1996, I wrote an open letter to the then-president of the Seventh-day Adventist organization, Elder Folkenberg, and sent it by certified mail. This letter was included in the first edition of Cultic Doctrine. I felt I was gracious, even though I asked some penetrating questions.

Some weeks later I received a terse letter from one of the assistants to the president. He said that Elder Folkenberg did not have time to respond to my letter, and it was well-known what Adventists believe.

Since that time over five million members have left the Adventist organization, and more are leaving every day. Today with e-books, YouTube presentations, and internet web sites, the Adventist church can no longer hide the errors upon which it was founded.

Is it too much to hope that you, the Adventist leaders, will someday cut Adventism loose from the errors of its cultic past? If all of the Adventist doctrines can be supported by honest Bible study as you claim, then why not completely eliminate the mention of Ellen White from your doctrinal statement and depend on Scripture alone?

WHY NOT SUBMIT TO THE TRUTH OF SCRIPTURE, BELEIVE IN THE LORD JESUS AND HIS FINISHED EXPERIENCE, THE SPIRIT GIVING YOUR SPIRIT NEW BIRTH?

Furthermore, it is well-known that your honest scholars know that the cleansing of the sanctuary and investigative judgment as taught by Ellen White cannot be honestly supported. Why not also cut this doctrine out as well? Additionally, any Bible student knows the Holy Spirit is the “seal of God” and that this seal has nothing to do with the Sabbath. Why not drop “Sabbath as the seal (or the ‘sign of the seal’) of God” as well?

In your public relations you appear to present Adventism as just another evangelical church which chooses to worship on Saturday. Why not actually become an evangelical church rather than masquerading as one?

Why not set the Adventist church free—free to do good works which come as a natural result of knowing that God has already given the believing Christian the verdict of “not guilty” in Christ Jesus? Why not submit to the truth of Scripture, believe in the Lord Jesus and His finished work alone, and experience the Spirit giving your spirit new birth?

Then, why not have a true “Gospel Conference” where the fundamental tenets of Christianity can be clarified? Why not help your members to understand fully the righteousness of God that comes apart from law and study justification, redemption, propitiation, reconciliation, substitution, and representation? Help them to know who they are when they are “in Christ Jesus” seated at the right hand of the Father. This knowledge will help them focus on “things above”, and as they trust our God and His word, the Holy Spirit will work out in their lives the fruit of the Spirit.

We who invested so much time and treasure in Adventism would be happy to see it become truly a gospel-centered, Christ-centered, Bible-centered church, for that is what we thought it was and were deeply disappointed when we discovered it was not. We pray that God will guide you. †

From http://lifeassuranceministries.org/proc … astor.html

tom_norris · 08-08-15 9:07 am

LC said: Hey Tom, I'm glad my testimony has been so relatable and I don't mind it being shared as an example to bring people together for this important issue (though I wish I had fixed all my spelling errors! haha).

However, with respect, I'd just like to ask that you (and anyone else who decides to share) keep some anonymity on my behalf. I don't like the fact that my full name is currently now on a website in view of who-knows-who, with references to my family.

Tom said: I removed your name from the post. There is no point in getting people upset. But people need to hear your story, which is also taking place with many others as well.

LC said: I shared my testimony in this group because I feel it's a safe environment where everyone has a story to share,

Tom said: I shared my remarks because I wanted to let you know that there truth within Adventism regardless of all the problems; and there is also a theological way out of this mess. But the Everyday Sabbath doctrine is not the right path.

LC said: Since you did lead me to your forum with your own commentary though, I also should maybe clarify my one and only reference to the "everyday Sabbath" in my above testimony, which you find to be false doctrine.

Tom said: I gave you a number of links about this specific Sabbath issue. If you read that material, you will know the issues better.

LC said: You said Sunday is not the Sabbath, Saturday is not the Sabbath, and there certainly isn't an "everyday Sabbath." But you're not saying there is NO Sabbath...so I'm honestly a little confused as to what the true answer is from your perspective (as you said every church has it wrong).

Tom said: Yes. Of course there is a New Covenant Sabbath. This is the doctrine that Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, teaches in the Gospels.

Here is what I said. It is a little different from what you thought.

“Let everyone understand: The SDA’s were correct to condemn the Sunday Sabbath. There is no such doctrine in the Bible. However, while the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath is correctly based on the 7th day, it is still flat out wrong. The SDA's have embraced the Sabbath of Jesus' enemies, not the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ. This is a huge, fatal mistake, for which they must repent.”

When the Gospel is fully understood, so too the New Covenant doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. At this point, no church fully understands the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. THIS is the problem. This is what needs to get fixed.

LC said: So to clear up any misunderstanding on what I believe to be true, here's what I mean by "everyday Sabbath" (something my husband had explained for a while but took me a while to grasp...until I watched the video I referenced above).

Tom said: First, the definition of truth is not based on our belief, regardless how sincere. Truth is truth regardless if we grasp it or not. And so too error. Do not be fooled by fancy graphics or slick presentations from anyone.

Second, I am very familiar with this Sabbath doctrine that claims Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath for us. It was invented in the 1970’s by two American religious professors. This popular view is very widespread, even though no denomination embraces this recent doctrine. Many SDA’s embrace it because it looked like an escape route away from Old Covenant Adventism. But it too is false, worthless doctrine.

While Zaspel and Wells are correct to join the SDA’s in condemning the Sunday Sabbath, they are also correct to condemn what the SDA’s teach.

However, Z & W’s proposed solution, the Every Day Sabbath, is still false doctrine. Jesus never teaches, or even hints, that he is the Lord of the Everyday Sabbath. There is no such concept, much less a Gospel doctrine. If ever there were a man made doctrine, this would be it, along with the Sunday Sabbath.

LC said: Though the practice of a weekly "Sabbath" was obviously very important in the Old Covenant Law (the one that had you put to death if you didn't keep it in a certain way), Jesus fulfilled the law and now HE is our answer - directly. We don't have to do any works to please Him or earn our salvation.

Tom said: I agree that salvation is based on faith, and that the 4th Commandment Law is not binding in the New Covenant.

So what is binding?

Answer: The Law of Christ. In other words, what Jesus teaches is what the Christian must follow, including what he teaches about the Sabbath.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Does Jesus teach a Sunday Sabbath? Or that his followers must obey the 4th Commandment and keep it holy by not working on the 7th day, as the SDA’s teach?

Answer: No and no.

Does Jesus teach an Every Day Sabbath, where he fulfilled the Sabbath for us? And that every day is like an OT, Sabbath rest?

Answer: No and no.

So what does Jesus teach about the New Covenant Sabbath?

Answer: Whatever Jesus teaches is what the church must follow.

The SDA’s were correct to insist that only the 7th day could be the NC Sabbath. But then they embraced the Sabbath of Moses instead of Christ. This is wrong. Jesus teaches an active 7th day Sabbath where works abound and there is no guilt for activity. He does not teach a resting, inactive, guilt ridden Sabbath.

The 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ is unknown to Laodicea. This is why all denominations have been judged wretched and blind by Jesus in the genuine Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church.

LC said: So now we have this New Covenant, thanks to Him. And now, when we take the term "Sabbath," it's not like a weekly ritual, engraved on stone lest we be put to death. Whether you still practice it or not is up to you - but it's not going to get you anywhere further in the salvation story.

Tom said: I agree that the NC Sabbath cannot be the same as the OC Sabbath doctrine of Moses. It must be different from the OC Law and it is different, which is why Christ was routinely teaching and defending his new view of the 7th day, a view that stunned the Jews.

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

However, I disagree that the OC Sabbath is optional behavior for a Christian. It is not. Jesus condemned the Jews for rejecting his NC doctrine of the Sabbath, even as he refused to embrace the 4th Commandment. Galatians also makes it clear that those Christians, like the SDA’s, that follow the Law of Moses, instead of the Law of Christ, are condemned.

The Gospel Sabbath is not optional; it is part of the NC.

Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Those that follow Christ must also follow his New Covenant Sabbath doctrine in John 9; just like the sheep follow the Good Shepherd in John 10. Did you know that this famous passage in John 10 is part of the Sabbath debates between Jesus and the Pharisees? It is.

John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

The Good Shepherd is defined as the one with the active and working Sabbath, which was debated with the Jews in John 9.

LC said: So when I refer to an "everyday Sabbath", I look at Sabbath for its literal meaning: "rest." God's original plan, before Moses came onto the scene. Back when Adam and Eve walked with God everyday. Before things got complicated and messy. No connection to the law.

Tom said: Adam and Eve knew nothing of an Every Day Sabbath, much less about the OC, non-working Sabbath doctrine of the Jews.

The issue is not what you, me, or anyone thinks about the “Every Day Sabbath.” The real question is this: how does Jesus look at this issue? What does Jesus think and teach about the Sabbath doctrine in the Gospels? This is all that matters. And guess what? Jesus never utters the term “Every Day Sabbath,” much less teaches such an absurd, phantom doctrine. It is pure myth. Beware false doctrine.

There is an OC Sabbath and a very different NC Sabbath; while both are on the same day, they are not the same doctrine.

John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”

Adam and Eve were NOT under the Sabbath law of the 4th Commandment, as the SDA’s foolishly teach. There was no such law against working on the 7th day until the formation of Judaism and the Old Covenant, and even then, it did not apply to the Priests. The Sabbath doctrine before Judaism was like the NC Sabbath, which is an active, non-resting Sabbath.

LC said: When I, or anyone, refers to an "everyday Sabbath", it means an everyday trusting in Christ, letting our burdens go, seeking answers from Him, giving up our WORKS of trying to EARN salvation (like we would have done under an Old Covenant), and just "resting" in Him. It's not complicated at all and it's 100% Biblical- so I hope I'm not tripping anyone up with the term "everyday Sabbath" as if it is some sort of requirement as it was back in the day. It's simply an every day state, choosing God daily.

Tom said: The “Every Day Sabbath” is well articulated in a book by Zaspel and Wells. It is also embraced and explained by Dale Ratzlaff, a former SDA pastor and many former SDA’s. It is false doctrine. Period.

NCT Exposed As Error (Every Day Sabbath Refuted)
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953

Sabbath in Christ, Revised Edition
http://www.ratzlaf.com/Sabbath-in-Chris … 767987.htm

NCT Book Review
https://www.uu.edu/centers/biblical/boo … .cfm?ID=72

While this new Sabbath teaching has its charms, it is not a real doctrine. Neither Christ nor the apostles teach such impossible theology. So whatever you think it means, it is moot. There is no such Sabbath doctrine. So I suggest that you must keep searching for the genuine doctrine, from the real Christ of the Gospels.

Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

As for the Gospel and salvation by faith, that is good and correct. However, it does not create new and strange views of the Sabbath that Jesus failed to teach, no matter how refreshing they may sound to those trapped in legalism. Trusting means trusting, but such Gospel trust does not change the Creation Story, which includes a special 7th day, or what Jesus teaches about the weekly Sabbath in the Gospels.

Law & Gospel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1122

While I understand the need to repudiate the Old Covenant Sabbath of the SDA’s, the Every Day Sabbath is not Biblical. It makes no sense and is impossible. It has no support from Jesus or anyone in the Bible, any more than there is a Sunday Sabbath or Secret Rapture.

The Sabbath, by definition, means the 7th day, the end of the week. This point has never been changed by Christ to be Sunday or No-day, much less Everyday of the week. Nor is Jesus the fulfillment of any day. Such strange viewpoints are dead wrong because Jesus does not teach them.

LC said: Now, it doesn't even HAVE to have the term "Everyday Sabbath" because, you're right, you won't find a verse in the Bible that directly says "Jesus died, the Old Covenant died with Him and boom, we have an everyday Sabbath" (or something to that effect).

Tom said: The term “Every Day Sabbath” is a good one because it correctly describes what this newly invented doctrine teaches. The problem is that Jesus nowhere teaches such a doctrine under any type of name or metaphor. Nor is there any OT prophecy whereby the Messiah was to fulfill the Sabbath, as if anyone can fulfill a day.

The solution to the Sabbath debate is to understand and embrace what Jesus teaches in the Gospels about the Sabbath. Pretty simple.

LC said: To fully grasp what I mean, it requires study and an understanding of who the Holy Spirit is and our new relationship with Him. But when it all comes together, the TERM "everyday Sabbath" is perhaps just the most relatable and well-understood for those moving from the Old to the New Covenant in their understanding.

People know that "Sabbath" = "rest", so essentially, saying we have an "everyday Sabbath", we know it simply means "letting go and letting GOD...DAILY."

Tom said: It was the SDA’s that claimed one had to “study” hard to understand their view of the Sabbath and other things. Such talk is code for cultic indoctrination. Beware any doctrine that “requires” a great deal of study to comprehend. Indoctrination is not Bible Study, and neither is adding doctrines to what Jesus teaches in the Gospels.

Note: While many people think Sabbath = rest; the New Covenant Sabbath does NOT include rest. It is the Old Covenant Sabbath that contains “rest” from work, under penalty of death. Jesus teaches no such resting, non-working, Sabbath doctrine. Rather, he teaches an ACTIVE, working, non-resting, 7th day Sabbath. Which is why you will never find Christ obeying or promoting the 4th Commandment as the SDA’s claim. Nor does he teach Sunday or an Every Day Sabbath. Such are the Gospel facts.

LC said: (The Every Day Sabbath) Makes way more sense than the weekly Sabbath ever did, if you ask me. Whatever troubles we're going through, he's got this under control. He is our "Sabbath rest" and so yes, He's "Lord of the Sabbath."

Tom said: We are not to ask anyone about the Gospel Sabbath, except Christ. He is the source for all church doctrine, including and especially the Sabbath. What does Jesus teach about the Every Day Sabbath? Nothing. So that is the end of the matter.

Jesus teaches that the 4th Commandment is NOT to be followed. This is why the Jews became so angry with Christ. They hated his NC view of the Sabbath. So what does he teach about the Sabbath? An Every Day doctrine? Hardly.

Let all understand: Jesus does not teach a resting Sabbath whatsoever. He never rested on the Sabbath, except when he was dead. Nor did he teach that anyone should rest on the 7th day, much less on Sunday or Every Day.

While Christ is our spiritual rest, 24/7, the days of the week have not been made moot by the Gospel, nor has Jesus’ Sabbath instruction been made moot by the many false versions of the Sabbath that have infected the church. This Every Day Sabbath doctrine makes no sense. It is false doctrine, and so too every Sabbath doctrine in Laodicea.

LC said: He IS the Sabbath, essentially, and that doesn't stop or start any day of week. Why would it? He's our rest, and we can enjoy His presence every day. This was always the POINT of the 7th day Sabbath when instituted- God just had to put it all into simple terms because the Israelites needed some special help.

But when He died, He revealed His true plan. We can trust in Him, everyday, and communicate with Him. Walk with Him, rest in Him. However you want to put it. We have a much different relationship with God than those under the Old Covenant. Our relationship can be more like what Adam and Eve had in the garden.

Tom said: Jesus is not a day, nor is there any prophecy about the Messiah fulfilling the Sabbath. So Jesus is not the Sabbath day any more than he is 1st or 2nd day of the week, or the moon. This is silly talk and gross error.

The Every Day Sabbath theory is based on the false assumption that rest is part of the NC Sabbath. This is not true. Jesus never claimed to be the Sabbath or to be our Sabbath rest. Moreover, the OC Sabbath, which featured a forced rest, under pain of death, is not the same Sabbath doctrine as Jesus teaches in the Gospels.

People are all confused about the Gospel and the Sabbath. Jesus teaches an active and working 7th day Sabbath. Read the Gospels and see for yourself. Don’t listen to what others say about the NC Sabbath, go directly to Christ in the Word and see what he teaches.

There are over 300 verses in the Gospels where the NC Sabbath is debated and taught by Christ. Thus there is plenty of primary material to understand the truth of the Gospel Sabbath.

LC said: There are lots of examples scattered throughout the Bible of God telling us to draw nearer to Him and rest in Him. And He does instruct us to come to Him and rest in Him TODAY (Hebrews 4:7), which is perhaps the best message of all. Upon discovering this, it's made everything else in the Bible fall into place and realize what true freedom is. Nobody can take me away from that - and it's brought me closer to God.

Tom said: Again. You have not quoted Jesus teaching an Every Day Sabbath, nor is Hebrews part of the Gospels. Jesus does not teach that the NC Sabbath is for resting, or that there is an Every Day Sabbath. Unless people understand Jesus’ doctrine of the Sabbath, they are by default following a false shepherd. This is not only what has taken place in Laodicea, but also why Jesus condemns the entire Laodicean Church for their many wretched false doctrines, including the Sabbath, which no church has correct.

LC said: Maybe you do already understand all this, and I'm not looking for a debate - I'm just trying to clarify my point JUST in case I was being misrepresented. I hope this made sense! Thanks

Tom said: I have debated the Every Day Sabbath many times with those former SDA’s that think it is heaven sent teaching. But that is not its’ real source, which is why it is so easily exposed as error. There is a record online for all to see. Those that hold this view never prevail because it is as impossible as Jesus teaching a Sunday Sabbath or promoting the 4th Commandment. He did neither.

Understand that the Every Day Sabbath doctrine of Zaspel and Wells and now many former SDA’s is dead wrong. While this crowd makes some good points, especially about the Law of Christ, they are flat out wrong to promote a point of view that was unknown to Christ and the Apostles. The cure for false doctrine is not more error, but truth.

What is the truth about the NC Sabbath?

What does Christ teach on this point?

When the church finally understands the active and guilt free 7th day Sabbath of Christ, they will also fully understand the Gospel. The Advent Community needs to repent for being so wrong for so long about so much, including the Sabbath.

Old Covenant Adventism must give way to New Covenant Adventism. The OC Sabbath must be replaced with the active and guilt free, 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

Luke 6:1 Now it happened that He was passing through some grainfields on a Sabbath; and His disciples were picking the heads of grain, rubbing them in their hands, and eating the grain.

Luke 6:2 But some of the Pharisees said, “Why do you do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”

Luke 6:5 And He was saying to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 04-27-16 3:44 pm

Hi Tom,

I have written to you before and I like what you have to say.

I'm struggling with Ellen White and some of the Adventist doctrines.

I grew up SDA, schooled and churched. I'm 59. My struggle is with the national Sunday law's which seem impossible in today's world. SDA's tend to read and interpret the Bible through EGW. If you look at the middle east, Christians are being persecuted, beheaded for being Christian, most are Sunday keepers. There's no Sunday law! SDA's think Sabbath will be a test even though it never has been.

Your thoughts would be welcomed.

I also struggle with the sanctuary doctrine, I do not find this Adventist teaching biblical.

I don't tithe 10%. We give freewill offering's where it's needed, like to the homeless man on the street, the unwed pregnant women, a us veteran etc...is this robing God? We help family members and employee's who struggle as well.

I welcome your thoughts on these issues plus EGW was she a phony?

Have the sdas been deceived?

Is the only requirement for salvation Jesus and Jesus alone?

Thank you Tom

Sincerely,
Kelley McElroy
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Tom Norris answers:

Kelly, I sympathize with your uncomfortable predicament. Most, if not all SDA’s today are confused, discouraged, and embarrassed about what they have been taught. Many are also angry. Which is why millions of once loyal Adventists have left the Denomination in the past 40 years.

Many have become exhausted over the never ending debates about Ellen White, the Law, and the Investigative Judgment; many are also repulsed by the corrupt, legalistic hierarchy that is full of Old Covenant double-talk and false doctrine.

Future trends in the SDA church
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … church.htm

Leaving the SDA Chruch
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Church.htm

The divided SDA’s are self-destructing for all to see, just as Christ predicted in the Gospels and Revelation. They have been greatly deceived, like all other churches in Laodicea, and they had better repent. Most of what they teach is false, false, and false. In fact, their view of the Sabbath, which they think is flawless, is not near as correct as they think. But they are clueless to their errors.

Mark 3:24-25 “If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. “If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.

Rev. 3:14,15 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Not only are the arrogant and fractured SDA’s wealthy, worth about $35 Billion; they also claim to be “rich” with Gospel doctrine, superior to all others. But like the rebellious Jews, they seem oblivious to the possibility that they could be wrong about doctrine. If they don’t soon repent and embrace Gospel Reform, they are doomed, just like the Jews they emulate.

Sunday Laws:

While Adventist teachings about Sunday laws made some sense in the 19th century, such eschatology made much less in the 20th century. Now that we have entered the 21st century, a time when there is more knowledge and democracy than ever before; the idea that the Papacy and Sunday laws will bring about the final Tribulation of the world is absurd and ludicrous; as well as against the teaching of Jesus and the NT.

Sunday Laws play a unique and featured role in SDA eschatology. Because of their emphasis on the 7th day Sabbath, Sunday became the false Sabbath of the Papal Anti-Christ, and thus a sign of disloyalty and disobedience to God. This viewpoint was given credibility by the 19th century ecumenical push for Sunday blue laws, which most all churches supported.

National Sunday Law
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ay-Law.htm

However, this push for civil Sunday laws faded away in the 20th century, and today, as you correctly state, there is no possibility of such laws making a comeback, much less causing the end of the world. Which means that Adventism needs to update and revise their Sabbatarian based eschatology. What made sense in the early 19th century, makes very little sense in the 21st century. Knowledge has increased too much.

Dan. 12:4 “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

Fortunately for SDA’s, their eschatology teaches there will come a time when 1) their doctrines no longer make sense and 2) the church seems about to collapse. This dangerous situation, which is clearly taking place now, 3) pushes the church forward to update their views about the end of the world. The Pioneers referred to this advanced theology as the 4th Angels Message, which is different from the previous 3rd Angels Message, which has collapsed for all to see.

4th Angels Message
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ls-Message

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … el-message-

Investigative Judgment / Pre-Advent Judgment

The 19th century SDA’s were primitive, uneducated and theologically naïve. It is a miracle that they found as much truth as they did. However, one of their greatest errors is to misunderstand Dan 8: 14, and then to exile their scholars for pointing out the problem. Until the SDA’s repent for how they treated Dr. Ford at Glacier View, and stop defending outdated and impossible doctrines, they will continue to foolishly self-destruct.

See:

Entering the Most Holy Place
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -place.htm

IJ / Pre-Advent Judgment
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ment-1.htm

The Judgment of the Little Horn Power
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -power.htm

IJ Fraud

A few years ago, an SDA zealot, Herb Kersten, came online claiming he could prove Dr. Ford wrong and rehabilitate the IJ. However, he ran away when confronted with 7 simple propositions. In fact, it only takes one basic point to condemn the IJ for all to see. But here are all 7 points; each one is fatal.

7 Irrefutable points Proving IJ False

Here are 7 irrefutable points that prove the IJ wrong. The first one alone, is sufficient to reject it, and so too any of the others. None of these points were properly addressed by Herb’s dishonest website, much less refuted.

1. Jesus does not support the SDA interpretation of Dan 8:14; He embraces another view, which all that follow Christ must also embrace.

Daniel’s prophecy is about the Hanukkah story, (Festival of Lights), which history is embraced by all Jews, as well as Christ when on earth, and the Jews to this very day. All SDA's need to understand Hanukkah, then they can better understand the book of Daniel and go forward to understand 21st century eschatology. At this point, their eschatology is confused and worthless. They are in the dark, unprepared for the great Tribulation, which they do not understand.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … lation.htm

2. The Pre-Advent Judgment of the Church cannot be in the OT or the book of Daniel. If the PAJ exists at all, which it does, it must be found in the NT. Only the NT can define Gospel doctrine for the church, not the OT.

3. The PAJ of the last church is found in Rev 3: 14. It is not found in the OT book of Daniel as the SDA’s claim. Here is the true doctrine of the Pre-Advent Judgment, which applies to every church and denomination today, including the SDA’s!

4. Neither the OT nor the NT supports a “celestial Judgment” to examine the believers sanctification. There is no such Judgment in the Bible. The IJ is an error, and no amount of double-talk from the SDA’s can change the theological or historical facts.

5. No serious scholars or historians support the IJ, nor has any church or denomination ever embraced this teaching, except for the SDA’s, and most of them now repudiate it, including their best scholars, like Dr. Ford and Raymond Cottrell. The SDA’s are being very dishonest to pretend otherwise.

6. While Traditional, Takoma Park Adventism defines the IJ as a fundamental “pillar” of the Advent Movement, anchored in Rev 14: 7. This was never true. Not one Pioneer, including Ellen White or Uriah Smith made such a claim. In fact, there is no such “pillar” in any of the Three Angels Messages, nor is this doctrine the reason why Adventists exist, as many have been indoctrinated.

The doctrine of the 2nd Coming as the Day of Judgment is the reason why the Advent Movement came into existence. Rev 14: 7 was only interpreted as being the Judgment of the 2nd Coming. The later developing IJ, (1857) had zero to do with the doctrinal development of any the Three Angels Messages, which pillars had already been erected by 1847.

7. The doctrine of the IJ is associated with long list of additional false, legalistic doctrines from the SDA’s, such as tithing, OC Sabbath keeping, Jewish food laws and perfectionism, just to name a few. It is not a stand-alone error, but one of many that must be repudiated.

The IJ repudiates the Gospel and marginalizes the 2nd Coming, which is the real Judgment pillar in the 1st Angels Message. It is a doctrine that refutes the Foundational pillars of Historic Adventism, and thus it must be repudiated by anyone who claims to embrace the Three Angels Messages.

These 7 points will stand the test of time. They are irrefutable. Which is why the SDA’s refuse to have a public discussion about the IJ or tithing, or any doctrine. They know they cannot withstand a cross examination from those who know the facts. So they prefer to mischaracterize and slander their critics, safely hiding behind their multi-billion $$ media Empire and their many dishonest websites.

See:

The IJ & Herb Kersten
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … gative-jud

Tom Norris' IJ Comments
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … is-ij-comm

7 Points that disprove the Investigative Judgment
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … gative.htm

Tithe in the Church is False Doctrine

The Old Covenant doctrine of tithe was never a New Covenant teaching or apostolic practice. Neither Christ nor the apostles embraced a tithing system for the church, which is why there is not one example of any Christian paying tithe in the New Testament.

The doctrine of tithe in the church is false and dangerous for a number of reasons. First, it denies the Priesthood of all Believers, even as it sets up an elite hierarchy to rule over the church. This is against the Gospel.

Many churches beside the SDA’s embrace tithing, although none do it so obsessively as the Adventists. While I am sympathetic to those that think tithing is a valid church doctrine, the fact of the matter is that they have been brainwashed by those that do not understand the Gospel. Thus legions think they are following Christ by practicing the Old Covenant doctrine of tithe, when they are actually following Moses and the Old Covenant, even repudiating Christ.

This issue about tithe is telling and important. It shows who is paying attention to the genuine teachings of Christ and his apostles versus those that are following a worthless, Old Covenant Gospel full of myths and nonsense. Tithe is not a New Covenant doctrine or principle, nor is it part of the teachings of Christ or his Apostles. Why do so many embrace this false doctrine? Why are so many blind to the Gospel?

For the record, Ellen White refused to fully embrace or support the Denominations tithe doctrine. No one today should pay tithe to anyone. To do so is to confess that you do not follow Jesus or his Gospel teachings.

TITHE IS NOT A DOCTRINE
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ctrine.htm

Is Ellen White A Fraud?

Ellen White was a real person, married to James White, the man most instrumental in developing the SDA Denomination. He was far more important than her, but you would never know this by the way the White Estate has embellished and portrayed her life story. While Ellen White was not a fraud, the White Estate has created a knowingly fabricated version of her, embellishing her well beyond anything that Ellen White would have allowed or approved when she was alive.

Arthur White, while not alone in this monumental scam, is the most dishonest man in SDA history. He made his grandmother into many things that she never was, even as he hid the real record in the White Estate to protect his fraud. However, Arthur White’s fabrications could only last until someone found the facts in the White Estate. I have been in the White Estate and I found thousands of hidden Ellen White documents that refute what the church has been teachings about Ellen White and church history.

Hidden Documents in White Estate
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … uments.htm

Unfortunately, this fraudulent story about Ellen White and Adventist history has caused endless confusion and debate within Adventism to this very day. Unless the Denomination repents and corrects the record in the White Estate, the SDA’s will continue to self-destruct in confusion for all to see.

Is Ellen White A False Prophet?
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … hite-false

The Gospel

While it is true that the SDA’s were very legalistic, promoting obedience to the moral law as a requirement for salvation, they were not alone in this error. The New England Puritans, from which they came, were very legalistic, which is why they enforced Sunday observance with the most rigid and harsh penalties. But Jesus no does not teach Sunday observance anymore than he teaches Old Covenant Sabbath keeping. Which is to say that neither the SDA’s nor the Puritans have the correct New Covenant doctrine of the Sabbath as they assume. Eternal life is only through faith in Christ. It is not based on any supposed obedience to the Law.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Eternal life does not come through any denomination, much less the SDA’s. Salvation is only through Christ and his Word. Not through false views of what Jesus teaches.

John 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

What Jesus teaches about salvation, the Sabbath and eschatology is what Christians must believe and follow. Eternal life is given freely to those that believe in Christ. It is not given to those that don’t believe like Christ. It is not given to those that embrace Jewish food laws, pay tithe, or rest on the Sabbath. Those that do such things are following a false Sabbath and a Christ.

New Covenant Sabbath Questions
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ions-1.htm

Sabbath Day both Moral AND ceremonial?
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … day-both-m

OC Sabbath Keeping II & Gospel Reform
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -moral.htm

The Gospel & SDA’s
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -SDA-s.htm

Conclusion:

Today, there are so many problems with Adventist history, theology, and Management that something must to be done. Inaction, or the wrong actions, will result in the destruction of the Advent Movement, which is presently taking place for all to see.

However, if ever there was a time when credible eschatology is needed in the world, it is now. Adventism is anything but outdated. Too bad the SDA’s are self-destructing when the world is anticipating apocalyptical events, looking for answers about the immediate future.

All SDA’s should protest the doctrinal corruption and error that has overwhelmed the Denomination. No one should support what is clearly so wrong and against the teachings of Christ, much less with the Old Covenant doctrine of tithe. Those that claim to follow the genuine Christ, cannot support any organization that follows so many false, anti-Gospel doctrines.

Unless the SDA leaders repent for their many fabrications about Ellen White and church history, and correct the false record in the White Estate, they are doomed! One way or another, the facts about Ellen White will become public, and so too the massive fraud in the White Estate, which is the source for so much debate, confusion, and misdirection within Adventism.

Unless the SDA’s repent to Dr. Ford for Glacier View and renounce their legalistic and impossible views about the IJ and Dan 8: 14 they are doomed! Unable to comprehend genuine Gospel eschatology.

Unless the SDA’s repent of their many Old Covenant views, like tithe, Jewish food laws, and Old Covenant Sabbath keeping, they are doomed! Such legalism is worthless and against the Gospel.

Unless the SDA’s repent of their confused eschatology, which claims that Sunday laws bring about the Tribulation, they will never comprehend genuine Gospel eschatology.

At this point in Adventist history, all THREE Angels Messages have terminated. This means it is time for all Adventists, both leaders and people, to stop pretending the 3rd Angels Message can be rehabilitated, adjusted, and saved. It cannot. The 3rd Angels Message, with its many legalistic and false doctrines has terminated and no amount of theological spin from the hierarchy will bring new life into a terminated and dead message.

So is this the end of the Advent Movement?

Hardly.

The world is a powder keg; it has never been more on the edge, so close to the great Tribulation. But who is prepared? No one. Today, there is no credible eschatology in any church or denomination, including the confused SDA’s.

So we stand, not at the end of the Advent Movement, but at the beginning of the next Advent message; which is the 4th Angels Message. This is where all Adventists must migrate today. This is where the Advent Movement must focus.

Clearly, it is time for another paradigm shift within Adventist eschatology. There is really no choice; the church must go forward or self-destruct. Adventism must admit its many errors and repent so that it can move forward to the 4th Angels Message, embracing Gospel Reform with both hands. This is the only path.

Adventist eschatology, which was once cutting edge, must re-focus on their practical and critical Gospel mission to prepare the church for the end of the world and the 2nd Coming. What could be more important and timely?

Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 06-04-16 1:05 pm

Leaving Adventism: by Armchair Theologian

I was once Seventh-Day Adventist and left after carefully studying the Bible. You can find all of my studies below. Some are extensive and will lead you to a page with an entire series of blog posts, while other studies get right to the point with only one post. If this is your first time I recommend you start with the New Covenant.

1. The New Covenant
2. Ellen White
3. Investigative Judgment
4. The Great Controversy
5. The Clear Word
6. Five Flaws of Adventism
7. State of the Dead
8. Hell
9. Gospel to SDA
10. Food Laws
11. Lunar Sabbath Calendar

https://actheologian.com/leaving-adventism/
https://actheologian.com

tom_norris · 07-24-16 2:36 pm

Welcome to Leaving SDA

Have you deconverted from the Seventh Day Adventist church in your heart and mind, but are afraid to come out? then this website is for you. It provides guides, advice and tips for leaving the church.

If you want advice on how to leave, then start by taking a look at our guide on how to leave the church. If you want more information on the internal Seventh Day Adventist culture.

It is normal to be scared to leave. For more information on why you are, read our article on whether the SDA church is a cult or not.

http://leavingsda.com

tom_norris · 05-12-17 2:59 pm

Leaving Adventism: The Rage Stage
Posted on April 29, 2017
By Arm Chair Theologian

This post is going to have a lot more in the way of my personal opinion than most of the others. Which is why I will not be archiving it. The conclusions I am going to be expressing here are mostly from a study that I did on the hardening of the heart, which you can find HERE.

The Purpose of Adventism

When I was growing up I had a very insightful Sabbath School teacher. He was and probably still is a very brilliant man. What I respected about him is that you could open up to any random book of the Bible and he could give you the historical context, insight into the congregation that the letter was addressed to, and provide perspective on each verse you came across. He could also handle very well all of those pesky verses that contradicted my beliefs. I realize the latter isn’t a good thing but at the time I appreciated it a lot.

Some time just before or during my High School years it came out that this Sabbath School teacher had sexually abused the pastors very young female grandchildren. We all got a letter from the conference in the mail informing us. This also happened to be occurring around the time that the issues in the Roman Catholic Church were coming to light. It was a big deal.

My dad was a big advocate of Church discipline in response to this. He didn’t want the Sabbath school teacher to be ex-communicated or something. I think the aim was for him to be sent to another congregation and leave it at that. This isn’t what happened though, instead the Church kicked out the pastor whose grand kids were abused. That’s how I remember it anyways, maybe they simply graciously asked him to retire and to stop complaining. I don’t know.
I could give you a few other stories like these, some of them directly impacting my family as I was growing up.

Interestingly enough none of these are the reason that I left. When someone does leave Adventism though it’s usually assumed that something horrible happened to motivate their departure.

In many cases this is true. I’ve seen a lot of people leave Adventism out of despair, triggered by some kind of an event. This is common enough that when you do tell people you left they will ask “what did they do to you?”. This is because they too have heard stories like the one above before and have worried about the people that left over them.
I believe that this is actually the purpose of Adventism. This is the end game. The cherry on top.

The goal the devil had in mind when he birthed this monstrosity was to scare Christians out of the Church with false doctrine and a false gospel, bury them in the law, hide the gospel, and then let their wicked flesh play out. Each generation more and more fall away, wash rinse repeat. People leaving into full fledged unbelief isn’t an accident it’s the reason the denomination exists.

Why would God allow that?

While I would never claim that God is the author of sin, he certainly does allow it. He even righteously judges people and nations with impenitence and a hardened heart so that they may believe a lie and go to hell.

“And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the LORD said to him, ‘By what means?’ And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab the king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets. The LORD has declared disaster concerning you.” 2 Chronicles 18:18-22

“The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

“But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had spoken to Moses.” Exodus 9:12

Keep in mind I am not seeking to systematize the above verses in this post. I am not going to speculate when and how a heart is hardened into unbelief by God. I am only asserting that based on the Bible it happens, and then when it does happen it is done in the form of a judgment.

How am I relating this to Adventism though?

Jesus promised that the time would be shortened for the sake of the elect, and it is promised that a delusion would be sent to our earth. The Bible also speaks of a great falling away.

I don’t know if what we are seeing in this age we live in is that event, it’s impossible to tell as the texts don’t give a lot of details. But even if we are not living in “THE” great apostasy I do believe it’s perfectly rational to assert that we are living in “A” great apostasy as it can be observed that many delusions have gone out into the world.

Adventism is one of those. You have a cult teaching heresy, burying people in the law, offering no gospel, and then abusing people as a result. And when people leave over the inevitable abuse they have nowhere to go because Sunday is the mark of the beast. Which is why many who leave Adventism end up agnostics and atheists, that’s the only recourse they really have. It’s no gospel but it’s a lot lighter on the law.

The Devil knows his time is short so he is going to drag all that he is permitted to on his way to hell. Adventism is simply one of the systems he has used for over a century to deceive myself, my family, generations that came before, and those in the future. Adventism isn’t the first or only institution to do this either.

Conclusion

We are being systematically lied to and deceived over the millennia. This doesn’t stop with Adventism. I would toss Latter Day Saints and Jehovah’s Witnesses in that category as well. Doesn’t stop with them either; the Gnostics, Judaizes, Muslims, Hebrew Roots, New Apostolic Reformation, Prosperity Gospel, you name it. The fact that we farm out cults like nobody else is actually one of the things about being an American that I’m not proud of. Adventism just happens to be the one that effected me the most.

When you leave a cult or a cultic way of thinking and get saved by Jesus among other things you kind of go through this “rage stage” for a while. The realization that you and those you care for have been systematically lied to by people that knew they were wrong when they did it is a hard pill to swallow. The only solution for this is gospel and lots of it. You, your sins, and all this world dies at the foot of the cross.

Some more good news is that this rage stage passes in time. If you kinda feel like the guy in the picture below for a while though, know that you’re not the only one who has gone through that.

https://actheologian.com/author/actheologian/

Adventists for Tomorrow

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