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I am in the process of reading the book New Covenant Theology by Wells and Zaspel. They start there book in an interesting spot and with an interesting question. Here are five points they make why we even need to talk about New Covenant Theology:
1. "If the New Testament is the apex of God's revelation, then we ought to read the earlier parts of Scripture in its light."
2." The NT is very explicit in making believers "slaves" of Jesus Christ. The implications of this are far-reaching"
3. "A nagging question arises when OT law becomes too prominent in discussions of Christian morals and ethics. The question is: Which is the higher revelation of the character of God, the Ten Commandments or the person, work and teaching of JesusChrist?" The authors try "to go a step further and work out its implications according to the NT Scriptures. "
4. Things call for an understanding of New Covenant Theology (NCT).
5. Discussion about the two ways that the New Covenant currently is studied: a) Covenant Theology b) Dispensationalism. Why are they not adequate and demand NCT's approach.
I will try to glean the salient points out of each chapter of this work. The authors come from the Reformed Theology side of Christiandom, so at times, one has to realize he is quoting respected authors of Reformed Theology, Calvinism, and the Westminister Confession, etc. That's OK it gives a broader look at Systematic Theology on that side(basically Covenant Theology with Sunday as the day of worship) as well as the Systematic Theology on the Adventist side, basically Covenant Theology also but viewing the Sabbath issue entirely differently. It is an important part of the discussion but not until further into the book.
Last edited by bob_2 (06-21-13 7:12 pm)
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Bob, Good Post!
Please let us know what these men are saying about the Sabbath so we can see if it is Gospel based or not.
They seem on a mission to correct the many errors associated with both the Sunday and 7th day Sabbath keepers, - so good for them to fight against the Old Covenant Sabbath, where work is prohibited and considered sin. All denominations, including the SDA’s, are guilty of this great error. On this underlying point, NCT is correct, - everyone is wrong about the Sabbath.
However, while it is easy to point out error about the various doctrines of the Sabbath, it is another thing altogether to define the Gospel Sabbath. From what I have read so far, these authors are clueless about how to define the genuine NC Sabbath of Christ. But I guess we will find out from their book, where they will try to make their case.
Here is the real question, which should have been the first point in their book.
"Is there a Sabbath doctrine for the church, and if so, what is it?"
From what I have read, I don’t think they have a clue about the NC doctrine of the Sabbath that Adventist Reform is promoting. We will see. But I think they are fighting another war. Like most all in Laodicea, they too are unaware of the active and reformed Sabbath of Christ.
Bob posted: Here are five points they make why we even need to talk about New Covenant Theology:
1. "If the New Testament is the apex of God's revelation, then we ought to read the earlier parts of Scripture in its light."
Tom said: Correct. This is normitive Gospel protocol.
2." The NT is very explicit in making believers "slaves" of Jesus Christ. The implications of this are far-reaching"
Tom said: One of the implications from being a slave of Christ is that we must follow what Jesus teaches, including what he teaches about his reformed, 7th day Sabbath.
However, Jesus does not call us slaves, but friends that have been informed about God’s New Covenant Sabbath, which the Jews hated.
John 15:15 “No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
Jesus teaches that his working, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath, came from God. Which of course infuriated the Jews that saw this new doctrine as law breaking blasphemy.
Jesus promoted his Reformed, 7th day, Sabbath in the name of God, even as he also taught condemnation for those who refused to follow his Sabbath teachings, which of course, include what he teaches over and over in all four Gospels.
John 12:45 “He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.
John 12:46 “I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
John 12:47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
I hope this book uses an honest hermeneutic, -one that deals directly with what Jesus teaches in the Gospels.
3. "A nagging question arises when OT law becomes too prominent in discussions of Christian morals and ethics. The question is: Which is the higher revelation of the character of God, the Ten Commandments or the person, work and teaching of Jesus Christ?" The authors try "to go a step further and work out its implications according to the NT Scriptures. "
Tom said: The NT is superior and more authoritative than the OT. Period. The law of Christ trumps the Law of Moses, including the 10C’s. The Gospel is greater than the law, and I think this group understands this fact, while the SDA’s and many others do not.
The implication is to follow Christ, not the law. Which means we must only follow what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. Period.
4. Things call for an understanding of New Covenant Theology (NCT).
Tom said: I don’t know what this means. But I know this: Any honest discussion about the Sabbath calls for “an understanding of what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath in the NT.”
I doubt we are going to get this from these authors, but you will from Tom Norris.
5. Discussion about the two ways that the New Covenant currently is studied: a) Covenant Theology b)
Dispensationalism. Why are they not adequate and demand NCT's approach.
Tom said: Ha! So there is some special type of “approach” necessary to understand NCT?
If so, this is a troubling development. This is what the SDA’s did. They invented new definitions about the Covenants, and laid out a carefully crafted hermeneutic that would lead one to conclude their errors were true.
The Protestant hermeneutic is the proper method to test any and all doctrine. There is little chance NCT will pass for anything other than confused error.
Hermeneutics
http://www.theopedia.com/Interpretation_of_the_Bible
Bob 2 said: I will try to glean the salient points out of each chapter of this work.
Tom said: Bob, are you going to do this in an objective, honest manner? Or as a supporter and cheerleader for what you think is correct?
It doesn’t matter to me; I just want to be clear how you are going to be reviewing this book. Can you even do it objectively?
Are you looking at this as a learning opportunity, or an attempt to push NCT forward as correct doctrine?
Bob 2 said: The authors come from the Reformed Theology side of Christiandom, so at times, one has to realize he is quoting respected authors of Reformed Theology, Calvinism, and the Westminister Confession, etc… It is an important part of the discussion but not until further into the book.
Tom said: Let’s not get caught up in the details or in a confused, self-serving, agenda. We need to keep this simple.
Regardless of their book outline or logic, here are the first two points that needs to be addressed:
1) Is there a Sabbath doctrine for the church, and 2) if so, what is it?
These are the first two questions. They are very simple. I hope they are clearly addressed in this book without a lot of diversions and double-talk.
If not, don’t worry; Adventist Reform has the answers.
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
Last edited by tom_norris (06-22-13 3:57 pm)
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Tom, I don't have time to get into the 1st chapter , but wanted to say, you are the only one that looks to have made his mind up and will jump anyone that says something different. You need to open your heart and mind to think about your position unfettered by bias and prejudice. I have asked before who else believes as you do on the Reformed Sabbath. I would love to study any material, free from your bias at any time. This does not include the long tirades you have done with your own eisegesis of the topic. In the future, I know your position, back it up with material, and where your idea, isolated though it be, came to be formed.
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Chapter one of this book is entitled "The Christian Appeal of the New Covenant Theology". " Few Christians would object to the fact that the NT is the latest essential Revelation of God for the church age".
1. "The critical point here is this: NT revelation, due to its finality, must be allowed to speak first on every issue that it addresses.... the NT holds logical priority over the rest in determining theological questions upon which it speaks."
2. There are two ways one can approach the Bible. Each has logic that goes with it. If one starts reading the Bible in the OT, the view of God is different than the view of God in the NT.
3. Reading the OT first one might assume that their is one people, one covenant and one sign of that covenant, circumcision. Isn't our God suppose to be a God that doesn't change? This position represents the point of view of Covenant Theology. Circumcision is no longer the sign of God's people, Baptism is, or Circumcision of the heart.
4. If a person starts reading the Bible, reading from the NT first,in this case you might draw very different conclusions. For instance, you might conclude that there is not, in fact, only one covenant, but two that are particularly prominent, the Old and the New. You might also conclude that there are two groups called the people of God, Israel and the church . Finally, you might decide that since there are two covenants, they have distinct signs.
5. "The large amount of baggage (presuppositions) that any of us bring to the Scriptures depends in large measure on which part of Scripture we, subconsciously no doubt, read first or treat as logically prior. ... That is why I think we must certainly read the rest of Scripture in the light of the apex of revelation (revelation is progressive), which is the NT. Read it all we must! But which testament controls our thinking and which we use for fine tuning is the all-important consideration."
Last edited by bob_2 (06-23-13 3:28 am)
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The Far-reaching Implications of our Slavery to Jesus Christ
Deuteronomy 18:15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.
This certainly applies to Jesus. On the Mt of Transfiguration, when Elijah, Moses and Jesus appear brightly, Peter wants to honor all three equally, but God speaks from a cloud:
Mark 9:7 Then a cloud appeared and covered them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”
The significance, Jesus is greater than Elijah or Moses. The disciples are to listen to Him as in a Master/Slave relationship. The Master always makes the rules, the point, "from now on listen to My Son."
Last edited by bob_2 (06-23-13 10:00 pm)
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Following the Highest Revelation of the Moral Character of God:
The 10 Commandments were given as the best revelation of God's character at the time. Jesus now is come and beholding him, not just listening, but watching him would be the best revelation of God for the time he lived among the disciples.
Have you ever thought as you read Paul that he contradicts Jesus?? Paul was given his Gospel message by vision with Jesus Christ.Notice in:
1 Cor 14:37 If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command.
and note this:
2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,”made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.
Why are we and those of his day to listen to Paul and the other writing disciples?? Because,
" they are penmen who reflected the glory of Christ that came to them in person and by revelation. They did this, not only by descriptions of his person and work, but also by the commands they issued in his name." Page 20, New Covenant Theology
Last edited by bob_2 (06-23-13 10:04 pm)
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Bob 2 said: Tom, I don't have time to get into the 1st chapter , but wanted to say, you are the only one that looks to have made his mind up and will jump anyone that says something different.
Tom said: I have long ago determined that NCT is false. It has been proven to have no credibility many times over on this site. I have seen nothing from anyone to change my mind. But you are welcome to try.
NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
Regardless, I am still open to whatever truth may be placed on the table. For example, I agree that every church in the world has an incorrect view of the NC Sabbath. This fundamental point of NCT is correct and true.
It is their attempted solution to this problem that is wrong.
But, good for them to try.
The SDA’s also tried, before them, and made some headway as they exposed Sunday keeping as false. But they too failed to fully complete Sabbath Reform, for which they must repent and move forward to embrace the Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
Bob 2 said: You need to open your heart and mind to think about your position unfettered by bias and prejudice.
Tom said: Sorry Bob, but I will only follow the teachings of Jesus in this matter. THIS is my unchanging position.
Consequently, I have no intention of allowing false doctrine and worthless double-talk control my mind or divert me from Christ or the proper hermeneutic to understand his teachings correctly. You are free to follow whatever myths and nonsense you want, but count me out.
Adventist Reform has a very firm and solid hermeneutical foundation, while NCT uses a reckless and wrong method to interpret scripture.
Jesus does not teach what this group is claiming, even as he clearly teaches a specific, weekly, 7th day, Sabbath that is very different from what NCT advocates.
Bob 2 said: I have asked before who else believes as you do on the Reformed Sabbath.
Tom said: Jesus. Jesus is the primary source of the Reformed, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. He believes it, and he taught his disciples to also believe and follow him in this new view of the 7th day Sabbath.
Those who are serious about following the genuine Christ will not ask who else believes like him. This is the same mistake the Jews made:
Mark 16:16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
John 7:46 The officers answered, “Never has a man spoken the way this man speaks.”
John 7:47 The Pharisees then answered them, “You have not also been led astray, have you?
John 7:48 “No one of the rulers or Pharisees has believed in Him, has he?
Truth is truth regardless if anyone acknowledges it or not. Truth is not predicated on how many, or who, supports it. Popularity has zero to do with truth. If Jesus teaches a doctrine, it is truth. Period. Those who follow him will embrace it as such.
John 18:37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
Jesus’ “testimony” of his Gospel Sabbath has been preserved and recorded in all four Gospels for our edification. Those who ignore his holy words, and play games with his teachings, will not pass the Judgment.
John 12:47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Jesus does not teach NCT’s version of the Sabbath or anything close to it. Nor does he teach what the SDA’s or the Sunday keepers claim. Which proves that everyone in Laodicea is wrong about the Gospel.
This is why all those that claim to follow Christ in the last church have been judged in the PAJ, by Christ, to be “blind, naked, and wretched.” All must repent and embrace the true Gospel and the correct doctrine of the Sabbath as taught by Christ or be lost.
Bob 2 said: I would love to study any material, free from your bias at any time. This does not include the long tirades you have done with your own eisegesis of the topic.
Tom said: My “bias” is the teachings of Christ in the Gospels. What Jesus clearly teaches, I embrace. I make no apologies for such a Protestant bias.
Those who run from the Gospel facts are trying to evade the clear teachings of Christ. Such are only fooling themselves.
The Gospels are clear about what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath and what he does not teach. Guess what? It is not what NCT claims or what the SDA’s promote.
Let all that profess to follow Christ, test themselves to see if they understand and embrace what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. If they don’t, then they are following a false Christ, with a worthless Gospel. It’s just that simple.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Eternal Life is only for those that understand the Gospel and repent for their many false assumptions and doctrinal errors. It is not for those who are unteachable, stubborn, and determined to defend error no matter the cost.
I hope this discussion about NCT will help those who are serious about following the genuine Christ of the Gospels.
Tom Norris for the NC, 7th day, Sabbath of Christ
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Tom, I have more to say, but I did go over your previous material and I stand by my statements and quotes of scholars and the Bible. I plan to post more but when I have the time, shortly, to do it justice. I am sorry that you believe no one or no material will change your mind. I even keep my mind open to progressive revelation. But your Reformed Sabbath rings hallow without scholars and the Bible to back you up. Let me give you an example of how you and I are on divergent paths:
Luke 6:5 Then Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
To you, it is a statement that strengthens an old understanding of the Sabbath. But it does not, it shows an advancement in the revelation of the Sabbath fulfilled in Jesus Christ. You miss that the ultimate goal of the Christian is rest (forgiveness). Christ when he declares that He is "something more important than the temple" and "Lord of the Sabbath" he is not just giving His OK for continued Sabbathkeeping, but is saying "As Lord of the Sabbath I can change what I want about the Sabbath, the meaning, Him being the fulfillment." As long as you do not see the shadow of the Sabbath over the years until the fulfillment arrives, Jesus, you will continue to build your "house" on faulty premises. Your assumption is that Jesus in His New Covenant must have a Sabbath Day associated with it. The NT/NC says differently. It is most important that we believe as other Christians believe, if none can be found, then the "message" you claim to be bringing needs to be modified or "REFORMED".
Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
Who do you bounce things off of?? What book or material outlines your Reformed message. This passage in Hebrews is essentially saying , "Think for yourself, not by yourself."
Last edited by bob_2 (06-24-13 7:47 pm)
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The Impact of Biblical Theology
"Biblical Theology is the study "of the Bible that seeks to discover what the biblical writers, under divine guidance, believed, described, and taught in the context of their own times"
by Robert Yarbrough.
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The Impact of Biblical Theology
"Biblical Theology is the study "of the Bible that seeks to discover what the biblical writers, under divine guidance, believed, described, and taught in the context of their own times"
by Robert Yarbrough. Page 20
The important thing for us to understand is that this kind of study seeks to meet a text on its own terms, before the necessary work of informing it by other parts of the Scripture. In the hands of negative critics this has led to disaster. For example, it has set Jesus against Paul and Paul against James in ways that evacuate "inspiration" of all of its historical meaning. The problem, however, is not the method but the presuppositions of the practitioners.
Page 21
Biblical theology insists on the logical priority of the text in the formation of systematic theology. Texts do not exist to vindicate theologies formed without them. On the other hand the discipline of systematizing texts is not only respectable but a necessary goal of all biblical study. In no sense must an exegete renounce systematics, he must simply avoid the impulse to hasty harmonization.
Page 21
Last edited by bob_2 (06-25-13 3:14 am)
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Bob 2 posted: Chapter one of this book is entitled "The Christian Appeal of the New Covenant Theology".
"Few Christians would object to the fact that the NT is the latest essential Revelation of God for the church age".
Tom said: Why can’t you take us directly to the point?
Is there a NC Sabbath for the Church, and if so, what is it?
Then we can get into the details of why they teach what they teach. But we don’t need to hear every little spin and twist that they think is so important to their new doctrine.
Tell us their view of the Sabbath, in plain and simple English.
Bob 2 posted: 1. "The critical point here is this: NT revelation, due to its finality, must be allowed to speak first on every issue that it addresses.... the NT holds logical priority over the rest in determining theological questions upon which it speaks."
Tom said: Correct. Very true.
Bob 2 posted: 2. There are two ways one can approach the Bible. Each has logic that goes with it. If one starts reading the Bible in the OT, the view of God is different than the view of God in the NT.
Tom said: Correct. I don’t know who would argue otherwise.
Bob 2 posted: 3. Reading the OT first one might assume that there is one people, one covenant and one sign of that covenant, circumcision. Isn't our God suppose to be a God that doesn't change? This position represents the point of view of Covenant Theology. Circumcision is no longer the sign of God's people, Baptism is, or Circumcision of the heart.
Tom said: Now we are into numerous assumptions, and some double-talk, all of which is meant to support some point downstream. For example, there are different signs of the Covenant, not one, so why are the authors leading us into false arguments?
As for God not changing? That is such a loaded and silly point, because the change from the OC to the NC was a dramatic change under the control and plan of God. So God does change.
Bob 2 posted: 4. If a person starts reading the Bible, reading from the NT first, in this case you might draw very different conclusions.
Tom said: History shows great division associated with everyone that reads the Bible. The Jews first, and then the Christians. So this is nothing new. Why do you think there are so many different denominations and church groups?
Bob 2 posted: For instance, you might conclude that there is not, in fact, only one covenant, but two that are particularly prominent, the Old and the New. You might also conclude that there are two groups called the people of God, Israel and the church. Finally, you might decide that since there are two covenants, they have distinct signs.
Tom said: Too many assumptions, not enough facts. Here the reader is being set up to embrace a specific view, as yet unstated.
I would rather the author be honest and come out and say:
“Here is a new view of the Sabbath, which is defined as ….. Here is why I think this is NT truth…”
Bob 2 posted: 5. "The large amount of baggage (presuppositions) that any of us bring to the Scriptures depends in large measure on which part of Scripture we, subconsciously no doubt, read first or treat as logically prior. ...
Tom said: We all have our specific traditions, culture, education, and bias. This is not necessarily wrong, it is how life works. Thus whatever religion we are raised, it will impact our belief system forever. So there is nothing new here in this observation.
Bob 2 posted: That is why I think we must certainly read the rest of Scripture in the light of the apex of revelation (revelation is progressive), which is the NT. Read it all we must!
Tom said: Many people read the NT and reach very different views. The author seems to assume otherwise. It would have been better for him to speak about how to understand what Jesus teaches in the NT. This is what needs to be promoted.
I am not very impressed with the way this book is unfolding. I don’t want to wade through a lot of religious rhetoric to get to the point. I want to know what this group is saying about the Sabbath.
“Is there a NC Sabbath doctrine for the church? And if so, what is it?
Bob, find out this answer and bring it to us. No need to hear any more until we can get a clear agenda.
Bob 2 posted: The Far-reaching Implications of our Slavery to Jesus Christ.
Tom said: We need to see what they are saying about the Sabbath. This point about Jesus being the final authority on the Sabbath is beyond dispute. The real question is what does Jesus teach about the Gospel Sabbath?
So yes; I agree, “Jesus is greater than Elijah or Moses. The disciples are to listen to Him as in a Master/Slave relationship. The Master always makes the rules, the point, "from now on listen to My Son.’”
So what does Jesus, the Master, teach about the Sabbath? THIS is the question. But I don’t think these authors know the answer. Or if they know, they are holding back for dramatic effect.
Bob 2 posted: Following the Highest Revelation of the Moral Character of God: The 10 Commandments were given as the best revelation of God's character at the time. Jesus now is come and beholding him, not just listening, but watching him would be the best revelation of God for the time he lived among the disciples.
Tom said: Jesus is indeed the highest revelation of God. This is a very correct point. So what does Jesus teach about the Sabbath? This is the question that needs to be addressed.
Bob 2 posted: Have you ever thought as you read Paul that he contradicts Jesus??
Tom said; Why is Paul being brought into this discussion? Jesus is the highest authority in the church and the best revelation of God; what does he teach about the Sabbath?
This is a better question then asking what Paul teaches about the Sabbath. While that is a good question, it is not the best question. We must first understand what Jesus teaches before asking what others think, including Paul.
Here is where the NCT people become dishonest with the Word. They claim Jesus has the most authority, but yet, they overlook what he teaches about the Sabbath so that they can run to Paul to hear what they want. This is no way to understand what Jesus teaches.
Bob 2 posted: Paul was given his Gospel message by vision with Jesus Christ.
Tom said: Jesus was given his Gospel message by God the Father. Jesus is greater than Paul, and so too God, and thus what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath is Gospel doctrine for the church.
The great mistake about NCT is this: they ignore and repudiate the Sabbath teachings of Christ.
Shame on them!
Those who do such things are no friends of Paul. He would rebuke them, even as he would tell them they do not understand what he is saying about the Sabbath any more than they understand what Christ teaches.
4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
The “glory of Christ” includes what he teaches about the Sabbath. This special Lord’s Day doctrine represents Gospel light for the church and the world.
5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.
Those who truly preach Christ, must also preach what he teaches about the Sabbath.
Enough of the diversions and double-talk about being slaves of Christ, etc, tell us straight if NCT admits there is a Sabbath for the church or not.
This is a yes or no question.
If yes, then tell us what it is, and then show us how you arrived at this position.
Tom Norris, who knows that NCT cannot be defended
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The book is not primarily about the Sabbath. It is about New Covenant Theology. Some of what I am pointing out may be making you feel uneasy, but it is their approach to Bible study. You have never supplied what I have asked for many times. Who collaborated with you. You, yourself and you. They take the time to lay the groundwork for how they even came up with New Covenant Theology. If you have seen a quote somewhere that shows that they are grinding an axe for the Sabbath, show it. Otherwise be patient.
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Tom I believe you are bringing your presuppositions to this discussion. Quote some scholars that believe even as you do.
....it is this:the large amount of baggage (presuppositions ) that any of us bring to the Scriptures depend in large measure on which part of Scripture we, subconsiously, no doubt , read first or treat as logically prior. ... That is why I think we must certainly read the rest of Scripture in the light of the apex of revelation, which is the NT. Read it all we must! But which testament controls our thinking and which we use for fine tuning is the all-important Consideration
Page 13-14
Last edited by bob_2 (06-25-13 1:58 pm)
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Bob 2 said: Tom, I have more to say, but I did go over your previous material and I stand by my statements and quotes of scholars and the Bible.
Tom said: What you mean is that you are standing by the founders of NCT. I thought as much. So this is more like a debate where you try to promote NCT and I must show why it is false. Fine by me. We have done this before and you have lost every time. This will be no different.
Please cut to the heart of the matter and answer the real questions I have been asking over and over:
1) Is there is NC Sabbath for the church? And if so, 2) how is it defined?
How many times do we need to ask these same questions?
Bob 2 said: I plan to post more but when I have the time, shortly, to do it justice.
Tom said; More words are not needed. First, your side needs to define this new Sabbath doctrine and stop playing games. What is NCT really saying about the Sabbath and the law of the 4th Commandment? Give it to us straight.
Bob 2 said: I am sorry that you believe no one or no material will change your mind.
Tom said: I never said what you claim. I am open to whatever facts can be placed on the table. However, I am not open to myths, diversions, and double-talk.
Such nonsense is not going to change the facts or my opinion, much less the outcome of this discussion. NCT is built on sand.
Bob 2 said: I even keep my mind open to progressive revelation. But your Reformed Sabbath rings hallow without scholars and the Bible to back you up.
Tom said: The 7th day Gospel Sabbath is an old doctrine, dating from the 1st century. It is recorded in all four Gospels, so it is difficult to miss.
If Jesus words about the 7th day seem false to you, it is because you have embraced a false Christ, whose doctrines cannot be supported from the Gospels. So you must let go of the fraud before you can follow the genuine.
The doctrine of the Sabbath, in either the OT or the NT, is not prophecy. So stop trying to promote such fraud. The Sabbath doctrine is landmark doctrine of Judaism, even as it was also a favorite teachings of Christ, - part of the Gospel Story, even the law of Christ. It just seems new to us today.
And No, you do not seem open to a “progressive” or improved view of the Gospel or the Sabbath. If you were, you would seriously study the Reformed Sabbath of Christ instead of running away.
Moreover, it is not the Reformed Sabbath of Tom Norris, but of Christ. So you can pretend all you want that I am making things up, but the Gospel record cannot be changed and you would do well to pay attention to the Word.
The church has been getting closer to the Gospel Sabbath for a long time and the work of the SDA’s has helped move the discussion forward, preparing the way for all to grasp the correct doctrine of the Lord’s Day. What a pity that the SDA’s are the most clueless about the Gospel Sabbath. They have the right day, but not the right Gospel or doctrine of the Lord’s Day.
Sabbath Reform has been a long work in progress, and the SDA’s get credit for teaching that Sunday is wrong and only the 7th day is the correct day for the Lord’s Day. Good for them. They had some truth, but now they have become very confused, just like the Jews.
As for scholars, most all of them embrace a weekly Sabbath or Lord’s Day. No scholars from any denomination, RC or Protestant, embrace NCT. So you need to get a grip on reality.
As for what scholars support the 7th day Sabbath, there are many, but the most famous is Dr. Desmond Ford, a world class, Gospel expert and NT scholar. He is a strong defender of the 7th day Gospel Sabbath. You should listen to what he teaches.
Although Dr. Ford had a strong motive to repudiate the 7th day Lord’s Day, like so many SDA’s after Glacier View, he refused. Why? Because he knew better. He knew that the NT does not teach NCT. He knew that the Gospel Sabbath is only the 7th day.
Dr. Ford, a long time SDA scholar and pastor, has linked the 7th day Sabbath with the Gospel teachings of Christ, even as he repudiated the IJ and all forms of legalism. He also repudiated NCT for all to see, turning his back on Richard Fredericks who fell under the spell of NCT.
Dr. Ford is the world’s strongest proponent of the 7th day Lord’s Day. Thanks to his theological insight, a (seemingly) new and improved doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath is emerging for all to see.
All should say “thank you” to Dr. Ford. He not only saved the Advent Movement, but also pushed Sabbath Reform to its correct Gospel conclusion. Which is why we are discussing this new Reformed Sabbath of Christ. This is new doctrine for the church.
So again, NCT is not valid or correct doctrine. Dr. Ford is clear on this point and so too his insistence that there is a 7th day, Lord’s Day in the NT for the church.
Bob 2 said: Let me give you an example of how you and I are on divergent paths:
Luke 6:5 Then Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
To you, it is a statement that strengthens an old understanding of the Sabbath. But it does not; it shows an advancement in the revelation of the Sabbath fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
Tom replied: Wrong. You are not close to how I view this short text. Please don’t tell me what I mean, you obviously don’t know.
This text does not re-enforce the OC view of the Sabbath, and in fact is being used by Christ to defend his reformed, NC, views, which the Jews hated.
The context shows that Christ is promoting a NC version of the Sabbath, one that is modeled on how the Levites viewed the Sabbath. He is not promoting the OC Sabbath of Moses where work is sinful. The fact you don’t know this proves you are not familiar with Jesus teachings about the Sabbath.
This passage shows that Christ has all authority over the Sabbath doctrine, (and even the Law). For what purpose? To reform and change it for the church. Which he does over and over in the Gospels.
There are numerous passages in the Gospels where Christ defends, defines, and promotes his NC view of the Sabbath. Those that want to honestly understand what he teaches must read, study, and process this material before they will ever be able to understand the Gospel or the Sabbath correctly.
Any who turn away from these holy words of Christ, ignoring and refuting what he teaches about his Reformed Sabbath are not going to understand the Gospel correctly, much less receive Eternal Life.
So yes, we are on very different paths; I am following the original meaning of the NT passage, and you are making things up and turning your back on the teachings of Christ. We have very different methods to read the scriptures, which is why we end up so far apart.
We have different Christ’s. One of us has no idea how to correctly understand the Bible or follow the genuine Jesus of the NT. It is you my friend, not me.
Bob 2 said: You miss that the ultimate goal of the Christian is rest (forgiveness).
Tom said: Here we go again! You need to stop making things up. The NT does not teach that the “ultimate goal” is rest or forgiveness. Jesus never said any such thing, much less about the Sabbath. Eternal Life is the ultimate goal for the Christian.
John 6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Titus 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
1John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
In fact, Jesus rarely used the word “rest,” - and never in the context of the Sabbath. Never. Nor did he ever “rest” on the Sabbath or teach such OC behavior. This is why he was always in so much trouble. He broke the Sabbath on a regular basis. Jesus advocated work on the Sabbath, not rest, telling people that God would not count it as sin.
Matt. 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
Mark 6:31 And He said to them, “Come away by yourselves to a secluded place and rest a while.” (For there were many people coming and going, and they did not even have time to eat.)
Bob 2 said: Christ when he declares that He is "something more important than the temple" and "Lord of the Sabbath" he is not just giving His OK for continued Sabbath keeping, but is saying "As Lord of the Sabbath I can change what I want about the Sabbath, the meaning, Him being the fulfillment."
Tom said: Wrong. First, Jesus never gave his approval for continued, OC Sabbath keeping as you have assumed. In fact, this is what he was repudiating and revising, which is why the Jews became so angry. So you need to stop misreading this passage.
Second, Jesus declares authority over this 7th day doctrine in order to revise it. Later on he will tell the Jews that God the Father told him to teach this NC view of the Sabbath and thus he was also charged with blasphemy to go along with breaking the 4th commandment.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
As this debate over the reformed Sabbath continues, Jesus links his NC Sabbath to Eternal Life.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
The Jews would not embrace Jesus NC view of the Sabbath, and thus they rejected him, and lost out on Eternal Life. Let all learn from this lesson.
Acts 13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
Third, Jesus never claimed to be the “fulfillment” of the Sabbath. He fulfilled other points, like the fact he would be treated like a criminal and hung on a tree. But there is no such idea or prophecy in the Bible whereby the Messiah was supposed to fulfill the Sabbath. Such a view is complete myth and fiction.
So again; stop making things up.
Luke 22:37 “For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.”
Unless you take the Word seriously, including Jesus Sabbath teaching, you are lost. No one can repudiate what Christ teaches, placing false ideas into the Gospel Story and still be a Christian.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Eternal life is not for those who disagree with Jesus and challenge what he says, but for those that understand and follow what he teaches. Sheep do not get in arguments with the Shepherd. He leads, they follow. He teaches, they learn.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
Bob 2 said: As long as you do not see the shadow of the Sabbath over the years until the fulfillment arrives, Jesus, you will continue to build your "house" on faulty premises.
Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. Your whole theory is based on fiction and myth. The Messiah was never supposed to fulfill the Sabbath. Where did you get this nonsense? There is no such idea in Judaism or in the Gospels. Sorry. NCT is built on fantasy and error.
Bob 2 said: Your assumption is that Jesus in His New Covenant must have a Sabbath Day associated with it.
Tom said: All that follow Christ, must carefully follow the Gospel Story. No need to make any assumptions or second guess the Words of Christ. What he teaches, including what he teaches about the NC Sabbath, is doctrine for the church. Period.
It is Jesus who insists that the church is to have a weekly Sabbath. Jesus is the one that took personal control over the 4th Commandment and revised to fit his NC agenda.
This is why the church has always had a weekly Lord’s Day, even if they got it wrong. The church has always known that there is a weekly Lord’s Day, and so there still is today. But it is on Saturday, and all are encouraged to, not rest, but work on this active, NC Lord’s day.
Bob2 said: The NT/NC says differently.
Tom replied: Wrong. You are not reading the NT correctly. I suggest that you read what Dr. Ford has to say about the Sabbath. Maybe you will listen to him?
Bob 2 said: It is most important that we believe as other Christians believe, if none can be found, then the "message" you claim to be bringing needs to be modified or "REFORMED".
Tom said: Wrong. Truth is truth regardless who agrees. So your idea that we must let others tell us what to believe is absurd. Only what Christ teaches in the NT is doctrine for the church. The object is to follow Christ, no one else.
Let all go directly to Christ in the Gospels and learn what he teaches about God, including what he teaches about the NC Sabbath. Jesus is the primary source for all truth, what he teaches about the Sabbath is Gospel Truth for the church.
Bob 2 said: Who do you bounce things off of?? What book or material outlines your Reformed message? This passage in Hebrews is essentially saying, "Think for yourself, not by yourself."
Tom said: First, My theological development has been shaped by many great theologians, like Luther for example, In addition, it was my privilege to meet Dr. Desmond Ford when he came to Takoma Park in 1980 to prepare for Glacier View. Ever since, I would “bounce things off of him.”
Dr Ford is a world class, Protestant theologian. He is an expert on Adventist history and theology, as well as being an expert on the book of Daniel and Eschatology. He is also an expert about the Sabbath.
In fact, Dr. Ford is a great defender of the 7th day Lord’s Day, and thus it is easy to see his influence on the Reformed Sabbath doctrine that is being promoted by Tom Norris and Adventist Reform. Dr. Ford should get the credit for this new Sabbath doctrine, not Tom Norris.
Without Dr. Ford, the active and reformed 7th day Sabbath of Christ would not have been discovered and the confusion and errors about the doctrine of the Sabbath would continue to rule the day.
Dr. Ford is a modern day Gospel genius. I am proud to be influenced by such a great, Protestant theologian. He is the father of modern, Adventist Reform. He supports the 7th day Lord’s day.
Secondly, Why are you quoting Hebrews? You need to read the words of Jesus in the four Gospels. You need to be quoting Jesus Sabbath teaching, not some unknown author of Hebrews.
What does Christ teach about the Sabbath? Only after you master this doctrine AS TAUGHT BY CHRIST, are you free to quote others or give them any consideration. Until then, you don’t know what you are talking about; NCT is false doctrine.
Today, with the Internet, it is an easy thing to find all manner of information, history, and commentary about any Bible passage. There are endless sources online from legions of experts and critics, as well as those wolves seeking souls to enslave. There has never been a time when there has been more information so readily available to so many.
However, this is no time to become confused and disoriented about the Gospel Story. Great care must be taken to understand what is truth and what is not. Those who refuse to honestly read the Gospel Story, running away from the clear, written, teachings of Christ, are being very foolish. They will not find truth nor understand the true doctrine of the Sabbath.
After 40 years of theological study, I find it best to go directly to the source, - to the Gospels. Here is where all can meet the living Christ and learn his Gospel teachings, including what he teaches about the active and reformed, 7th day Gospel Sabbath.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, you ask, "What does Jesus teach about the NC Sabbath?" Well He had opportunities with the Samaritan woman:
John 4:21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
And with the rich young ruler in:
Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Why do you run to the Sabbath issue the moment the NC is brought up. Have you made an idol out of the Sabbath. Where in the Bible does it declare that any Covenant has to have a Sabbath? It doesn't, it so happens it was an important one given to the Jews on pain of death. The NC has no such commandment or law. You have never after all your lengthy epistles been able to show this. You deal in assumptions and personal, one man interpretations.
Instead Jesus stays with a Gospel emphasis. You can not prove Jesus taught a Reformed Sabbath. He let those that contended with Him what the original meaning of the Sabbath was. Even originally, an ox fallen in a ditch was OK to get out on the Sabbath. Show me one place he teaches Sabbath. He does say He is Lord of the Sabbath that suggests He had the authority to change the Sabbath or do away with it. BUT, it had to be fulfilled first as Col 2:16,17 declares, the shadow and the reality. Also, with creation and the Exodus attached to the reading of the commandments in two different places in the OT, it certainly was not part of a Heavenly Eternal law, because both experience did not happen to any heavenly creator. It ultimately is fulfilled by REST, Jesus ability to FORGIVE us, so we could stop trying to be sinless.
Last edited by bob_2 (06-29-13 12:12 am)
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Another point made by the authors, if you start reading the bible from the OT first, you get a view of God and a Sabbath strictly enforced. You then could be guilty of bringing presuppositions into the study of the NT/NC. Covenant Theology tends to not have any break between covenants, assuming the 10 Commandments stay in force. If you start by reading about the NT/NC you may see the way Jesus handles the Sabbath in a more liberal, fulfillment way. One's mind can see how serious the Sabbath was kept in the OT, and feel that a God that doesn't change would have the same strictness in the NC, or the necessity to even have a Sabbath in the NC.
Being "Lord of the Sabbath" if one reads the NT/NC first, might assume that being "Lord of the Sabbath" gives the authority to Jesus to take the Sabbath in a different direction, even abrogating it or extending the coverage, being more strict. Here one can only be honest with his originating mindset.
Tom Wells makes the following statement:
That is why I think we must certainly read the rest of Scripture in the light of the apex or revelation, which is the NT. Read it all we must! But which testament controls our thinking and which we use for fine tuning is the all-important consideration.
Also, while Moses was the lawgiver in the Old Testament, so the law is referred to as the Mosaic Law, Jesus is the lawgiver of the New Testament.
Last edited by bob_2 (06-29-13 10:36 pm)
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Let me just interject. I don't believe NC scholars have the Sabbath as there major item that must be dealt wih. But because worshipping on Sunday is the "Elephant in the Room" It does have to be dealt with.
Last edited by bob_2 (06-29-13 12:27 pm)
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Chapter 2 A brief History of Divine Revelation - Fred Zaspel
In the 2nd Covenant, and the build up to it at the cross and Pentecost, who after Christ was gone was to be the one we could turn to for truth??
John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Zaspel in his 2nd Chapter:
Jesus teaching to his disciples was not complete when he died, but through his replacement, the Holy Spirit, he had provided for its continuation and completion.
Tom, you have been goading me about the Reformed Sabbath you say Jesus taught the disciples. With this text showing incomplete knowledge given to the disciples, I believe one must carefully read scripture after Christ's death. Col 2:16, 17 is a text given when it would certainly have more of a 2nd Covenant twist to it than a !st. Let me post it again:
Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Last edited by bob_2 (06-29-13 11:10 pm)
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The two authors suggest that to take Col 2: 16, 17 and use the civil, ceremonial and moral split tool to explain that verse, they see that as a typical Covenant Theology tool, that is unbiblical. The whole of the OT was seen as the whole of the OC, and the NT the whole of the NC. Both have arguable start times. The OT, the Abrahamic Promise and the Exodus for the OC, John the Baptist arrival, Jesus arrival, Jesus death and the Holy Spirit received on Pentecost.
The Spirit was to be sent to "give them illumination, fuller revelation, and new revelations. This 'other helper' will bring the climactic revelation of the Son to its culmination.
Heb 2:2 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
Tom, you can not argue the whole revelation of salvation was given by teaching of Jesus after reading these texts. Your Reformed Sabbath is nothing but a ruse while knowledge is still being given to the Apostles by the Holy Spirit and direct revelation from Jesus Christ.
Last edited by bob_2 (06-29-13 11:31 pm)
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Bob 2 said: Your assumption is that Jesus in His New Covenant must have a Sabbath Day associated with it.
Tom said: All that follow Christ, must carefully follow the Gospel Story. No need to make any assumptions or second guess the Words of Christ. What he teaches, including what he teaches about the NC Sabbath, is doctrine for the church. Period.
It is Jesus who insists that the church is to have a weekly Sabbath. Jesus is the one that took personal control over the 4th Commandment and revised to fit his NC agenda.This is why the church has always had a weekly Lord’s Day, even if they got it wrong. The church has always known that there is a weekly Lord’s Day, and so there still is today. But it is on Saturday, and all are encouraged to, not rest, but work on this active, NC Lord’s day.
Tom, you have offered presuppositions to make your points. How about some scripture. I find no place that Jesus says the Sabbath is to continue in His Kingdom, in fact Hebrews 4 says:
Heb 4:4 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”[c] 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”[d]
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[e] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
Last edited by bob_2 (06-29-13 11:48 pm)
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Jesus offers a conundrum to the readers here:
John 5: 16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”
and
Heb 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest
The Rest that Jesus is speaking of is not a day, it is a state of rest, forgiveness, which Col 2:16, 17 is talking about. Sabbath of the OC was a shadow of the saved state of the Christian.
Do I have a problem with you making up a Reformed Sabbath that you and only you "keep"? Nope!!!
Last edited by bob_2 (06-30-13 12:07 am)
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Accordingly, when we read of the NT Scriptures coming to us by the inspiration of the Spirit, we should not think of the Holy Spirit acting on his own. He came to further the teaching of Christ. This also is how se should think when we read of "the law of Christ" --it is not the red letters only, but the entire body of writings given by the spirit of Christ through the apostles.
-- Fred Zasel, page 39
That defining of the "Law of Christ" is significant, don't you think ??
In his comments on Ephesians 2:20("The foundation of the apostles and [NT] prophets") John Stott sums up our point well "In practical terms this means that the church is built on the New Testament Scripture.They are the church's foundation documents.
How is all this important for the point at hand? It demonstrates the priority of the NT Scriptures. Only now, with our NT canon, do we have "all truth" (John 16:13) The era of Christ and his apostles marked a quantum leap forward in redemptive history. It brought about both a qualitative and a quantitative advance.
- Fred Zaspel page 40
Last edited by bob_2 (06-30-13 1:34 am)
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Bob 2 said; The book is not primarily about the Sabbath. It is about New Covenant Theology.
Tom replied: NCT opposes the continuity of the Ten Commandments, claiming that only 9 of the 10 are contained in the law (teaching) of Christ. They conclude by saying that the Sabbath, whether on Sunday or the 7th day, is not a NC doctrine for the church.
NCT is all about the law and the Sabbath. If you don’t understand this point, then you do not understand the debate.
I don’t think there is even any eschatology associated with this theology; they are all about attacking the doctrine of the Sabbath and promoting a new view, which the church has never supported at any time.
A CRITIQUE OF NEW COVENANT THEOLOGY
http://www.reformationireland.com/artic … eology.htm
New Covenant Theology
http://www.theopedia.com/New_Covenant_Theology
Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel on the Sabbath
http://andynaselli.com/wells-zaspel-sabbath
Don’t misunderstand, NCT is correct to claim that the Sunday Lord’s day is wrong, and so too what the SDA’s preach. Good for them to understand that every church as a wrong view about the law and the Gospel, which is underscored by their wrong view of the Sabbath or Lord’s Day.
However, they have FAILED to understand what Jesus teaches about the 4th commandment. They too have embraced much error and false doctrine about the Sabbath. They have not resolved the debate and in fact have only made it more confusing by introducing additional errors.
Adventist Reform has the correct solution to the Sabbath debate, not NCT. Let those who seek Gospel truth pay attention to what Christ teaches.
Bob 2 said: Some of what I am pointing out may be making you feel uneasy, but it is their approach to Bible study.
Tom said: The methodology used to develop and defend NCT is very wrong. No honest scholar, like Dr. Ford, would ever approve of the sloppy and dishonest hermeneutics that are used to promote NCT. Which is why no serious scholars embrace NCT.
The fact that many former SDA’s have embraced this nonsense only proves how confused the Adventists are about doctrine.
This claim that Jesus did not teach a NC Lord’s Day for the church is absurd and without foundation. The Gospels are full of Jesus reformed, 7th day Sabbath teaching for the church and thus the conclusion of NCT is utterly false and without any foundation whatsoever.
Bob 2 said: You have never supplied what I have asked for many times. Who collaborated with you? You, yourself and you?
Tom replied: Asked and answered many times. I follow the 1st century theologians named Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The books they wrote are the basis for my theology, as well as for understanding the NC doctrine of the Sabbath. Of course there are many others, including Dr. Ford, but the primary source for all doctrine has to be the Gospels.
Bob 2 said: They take the time to lay the groundwork for how they even came up with New Covenant Theology. If you have seen a quote somewhere that shows that they are grinding an axe for the Sabbath, show it. Otherwise be patient.
Tom said: I want to hear the doctrinal definition of what they are saying up front- in their own words. I don’t want to listen to a bunch of religious brainwashing and double-talk that “prepares” me for their great conclusion. If they can’t simply and clearly explain their new Sabbath doctrine, then they are acting like the SDA’s who play the same cultic games.
Any religious author that refuses to come right out and clearly say what they mean, is not being honest and deserves no audience. The religious market place is full of such charlatans, quacks, and hypocrites.
NCT is part of a modern campaign to attack the doctrine of the Sabbath. Period. This is what they are all about, and this is the point of their theology. I have known this for years and so too have many others. How can you not understand?
In fact, RC Sproul’s magazine, Tabletalk, of September 2002 attacked NCT via five articles against ‘antinomianism.’ One of those articles, "The Death of the Decalogue," by Richard Barcellos, applied the odious label of theological antinomian to Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel, co-authors of the book New Covenant Theology and to me, (John Reisinger).
See:
An Open Letter to Dr. R.C. Sproul
http://solochristo.com/theology/nct/rei … sproul.htm
NCT has been rejected, and is still being rejected, by all serious theologians. However, the confused SDA’s are drawn into this error because it helps with their guilt and embarrassment of having the wrong Sabbath all these years. It gives them the theological cover to turn their back on the 7th day and pretend they have found the correct doctrine of the Sabbath when that is not what is taking place whatsoever.
Silly SDA’s.
Bob 2 said: Tom I believe you are bringing your presuppositions to this discussion. Quote some scholars that believe even as you do.
Tom said: It is impossible not to bring our ideas, pre-suppositions, and education into any such discussion. Which is why one must use a correct hermeneutic to make sure the original intent of the author is being understood in spite of our prejudices. NCT is not honest about the Gospel Story. Sad.
Bob 2 said: Tom, you ask, "What does Jesus teach about the NC Sabbath?" Well He had opportunities with the Samaritan woman:
Tom replied: Ha! This is comical. Why did you focus on John 4, when John 5 is all about the Sabbath? This is what is so frustrating with the NCT crowd. They are blind to the teachings of Christ about the Sabbath. It’s as if they don’t want to know what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath because it will interfere with their views.
Such willful blindness was fatal to the Jews and also to anyone today that plays the same game.
First off, John is setting up the NC Sabbath in chapter 4:
John 4:22 “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
John 4:23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
John 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Here Jesus teaches that changes are coming to the way the Jews “worship” God. (The word “worship” is used 7 times in these three verses.)
In fact, Jesus says that there is more truth on the way about “worship.” Sure enough, Chapter 5 is all about the OC Sabbath versus the NC, Reformed Sabbath of Christ. How could you miss this large Sabbath passage, and the many others in the Gospels?
John 5:6 When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he had already been a long time in that condition, He *said to him, “Do you wish to get well?”
John 5:7 The sick man answered Him, “Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, but while I am coming, another steps down before me.”
John 5:8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.”
John 5:9 Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk. Now it was the Sabbath on that day.
John 5:10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”
If you want to understand what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath, then you must go to the passages that focus and deal with the Sabbath. How hard is that to understand?
So why do you quote the wrong passages? And why does NCT pretend that Jesus did not teach a NC doctrine of the Sabbath for the church?
The Gospels are loaded with the Sabbath teachings of Christ. In addition to John 5, - John 7 and 9 also contain more Sabbath teachings of Christ. But yet, you quote other passages in John in a dishonest attempt to ignore, overlook, and repudiate what Jesus really teaches about the Gospel Sabbath. Disgusting behavior.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
Here Jesus teaches that God is the one who invented the active, Gospel Sabbath. God is working on the Sabbath and so too the Messiah and all those that follow him.
John 7:20 The crowd answered, “You have a demon! Who seeks to kill You?”
John 7:21 Jesus answered them, “I did one deed, and you all marvel.
John 7:22 “For this reason Moses has given you circumcision (not because it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and on the Sabbath you circumcise a man.
John 7:23 “If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath?
John 7:24 “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
Here Jesus defends his Reformed view of the 7th day Sabbath. He tells the Jews that they are not thinking clearly or correctly. And neither is anyone today who refuses to embrace Jesus’ NC Sabbath.
John 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.
John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.”
But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.
Over and over in the Gospels, we see Jesus promoting and defending his active and reformed 7th day Sabbath. It was a great point of division for the Jews, and so it will be for the church.
The book of John makes this point over and over. But yet the NCT crowd can’t ever seem to find these passages, much less understand what Jesus is teaching. Which is why they declare that Jesus taught 9 of the 10 commandments, but not the Sabbath.
Such a conclusion is insane and absurd. Such a point is so obviously false that it is astonishing that anyone would try to build a new doctrine around such a fictitious point. I don’t know how any of the NCT crowd sleeps at night. They are dishonest, delusional, and very unsaved.
Bob 2 quoted: And with the rich young ruler in Matthew 22:36. “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Tom replied: Again, why do you avoid quoting the passages where Christ teaches his Reformed, 7th day Sabbath? This is mind-boggling. NCT is like a magic show. It depends on diversion to pull off the intended deception.
Pay attention, in the book of Matthew, the discussion of the NC Sabbath starts in chapter 12. Of course you ignored this and quoted something else from Jesus. Sad.
Matt. 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.
Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
Matt. 12:3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions,
Matt. 12:4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?
Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
Matt. 12:7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Why do you always have to run away from the teachings of Jesus about the Sabbath?
Answer; Because NCT cannot stand if the teachings of Jesus are considered and embraced. So rather than follow what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, they pretend he does not teach much of anything. Such a view is satanic and anti-Christ. Let all run from NCT.
Bob 2 said: Why do you run to the Sabbath issue the moment the NC is brought up.
Tom said: We are having a discussion about the Sabbath; it is a great point of contention that must be corrected if the church wants to understand the Gospel correctly and move forward.
NCT is correct to understand that the doctrine of the Sabbath is critical to understand. In fact, the better one understands the law and the Gospel, the better one can comprehend the NC Sabbath of Christ.
The Sabbath provides a good test to see how well one understands the Gospel Story. If you misunderstand the Sabbath, you have misunderstood the Gospel of Christ. This is why it is so critical to understand the Sabbath correctly.
At this point, every church and denomination has failed the test. They all have a very distorted view of the Gospel as well as an impossible and very wrong doctrine of the Sabbath. This includes the SDA’s, who managed to get the right day, but then failed to understand the correct doctrine anyway.
Bob 2 said: Have you made an idol out of the Sabbath.
Tom said: No. Jesus is the “idol.” He is the holy one that is to be followed, including what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath.
Moreover, unlike the SDA’s, who teach that the 7th day is “holy,” the NC Sabbath is not. No day is holy in the NC. Only people are holy. Which is why Jesus teaches his followers can work on the Sabbath and not be guilty. The 7th day is not holy in the NT. Nor is it a rest day. These are OC views.
1Pet. 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Bob 2 said: Where in the Bible does it declare that any Covenant has to have a Sabbath?
Tom said: Does not the Bible teach that the “Lord’s Laws” will be written on hearts of the new Israel in the NC?
Heb. 10:16 “THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,
AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,”
Would not these laws include something about the 4th Commandment? Of course they would!
We don’t have to guess, because Jesus teaches doctrine concerning all 10 Commandments, including and especially the Sabbath. Thus all can go to the Gospels and see what Jesus teaches about the 4th commandment.
Jesus teaches an active, NC, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath, which is truth for the church. Those who deny this, deny Christ.
Bob 2 said: It doesn't, it so happens it was an important one given to the Jews on pain of death. The NC has no such commandment or law. You have never after all your lengthy epistles been able to show this. You deal in assumptions and personal, one-man interpretations.
Tom said: I am not a healer. I cannot make the blind see the Gospel Sabbath. Especially if they act like the Jews and refuse to open their eyes or admit they are wrong. But Jesus was a healer. He did heal the blind. But even so, most would not see or believe. So be it.
Those who want to understand what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath must go to the Gospels and learn DIRECTLY from Christ. Those that don’t, will run from the many passages in the Gospels where Jesus defines, defends, and promotes his very controversial view of the Sabbath. They will not understand the Gospel or find Eternal Life.
Bob 2 said: Instead Jesus stays with a Gospel emphasis.
Tom said: I don’t know what you are saying, and neither do you. Why are you denying the plain, written, Sabbath teachings of Christ? His doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath fits with his Gospel.
Jesus teaches that those who deny his doctrine of the Sabbath will be condemned. They will not receive Eternal Life. This is what happened to the Jews. They refused to let go of their legalistic; OC Sabbath, and thus they refused the Gospel.
I suggest you reconsider your present path away from Christ. It will not end well for you.
Bob 2 said: You cannot prove Jesus taught a Reformed Sabbath.
Tom replied: The facts prove otherwise. The Gospels are full of Jesus active and reformed 7th day Sabbath. There is no use denying what is so plain and obvious for all to see. Deny whatever parts of the Gospel Story you don’t like, but understand you are only deceiving yourself and being very foolish.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Bob 2 said: He let those that contended with Him what the original meaning of the Sabbath was. Even originally, an ox fallen in a ditch was OK to get out on the Sabbath. Show me one place he teaches Sabbath.
Tom said: The OC Sabbath, which was a memorial to the Creator God of the Jews, demanded strict rest on the 7th day for all but the Priests, under pain of death. Zero work or play was allowed under penalty of death. This was the “original meaning” of the Sabbath, which God endorsed.
So your point is false and wrong.
Jesus taught a very different view of the Sabbath. One where work was no longer sinful or wrong. Misunderstand this point, and you will misunderstand the Gospel.
Bob 2 admitted: He does say He is Lord of the Sabbath that suggests He had the authority to change the Sabbath or do away with it.
Tom said: Why would Jesus want to be Lord of the Sabbath? What was the point of such a claim? After all, he was Lord of everything anyway, so why did the 4th Commandment have to become a major point?
Answer: The Sabbath, like the Gospel, is for all mankind, not just the Jews. Thus Jesus claims to protect this important doctrine, which came to be known as the Lord’s Day by the apostles.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Those who deny the NC Sabbath are also denying the NC Messiah. They will never pass the Judgment because they have rejected Christ and his Gospel Sabbath, just like the Jews.
Bob 2 said: BUT, it had to be fulfilled first as Col 2:16,17 declares, the shadow and the reality.
Tom said: Jesus teaches a 7th day NC Sabbath in all four Gospels. Period! Those who deny such an obvious and irrefutable fact have lost their minds and their salvation. Like the Jews, they are blind to truth.
Bob 2 said: Also, with creation and the Exodus attached to the reading of the commandments in two different places in the OT, it certainly was not part of a Heavenly Eternal law, because both experience did not happen to any heavenly creator. It ultimately is fulfilled by REST, Jesus ability to FORGIVE us, so we could stop trying to be sinless.
Tom replied: You speak utter nonsense and double-talk. Jesus teaches what he teaches in the Gospels. People either believe and follow him or they don’t. NCT does not follow what Christ teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. No one does today. But that will change.
It is only a matter of time before those who seek truth will be able to understand the Gospel Sabbath. However, those who refuse to be honest with the teachings of Christ, whether about the Sabbath or anything else, will never find truth or receive Eternal Life
Bob 2 said: Another point made by the authors, if you start reading the bible from the OT first, you get a view of God and a Sabbath strictly enforced. You then could be guilty of bringing presuppositions into the study of the NT/NC. Covenant Theology tends to not have any break between covenant, assuming the 10 Commandments stay in force. If you start by reading about the NT/NC you may see the way Jesus handles the Sabbath in a more liberal, fulfillment way.
Tom said: Stop the double-talk. I don’t care if one reads the Bible upside down, in the shower. It does not change the fact that Christ teaches a reformed and revised doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath over and over in the Gospels. The sooner you stop fighting this fact, the better for you.
Bob 2 said: One's mind can see how serious the Sabbath was kept in the OT, and feel that a God that doesn't change would have the same strictness in the NC, or the necessity to even have a Sabbath in the NC.
Tom said: Nonsense. Who says God is against change? This is absurd. God invented the OC with the plan in mind to change it into the NC through Christ. So God is all about planned and controlled change, a point that the Jews denied.
Moreover, we don’t have to assume that the NC Sabbath would be as strict as the OC Sabbath. On what basis do you reach such a conclusion?
The NC is full of mercy and grace, so one should assume that the NC Sabbath would also reflect such concepts. It does. The Gospel Sabbath represents freedom from the guilt of the law, not legalism. In fact, the weekly NC Sabbath is so light and easy that it is impossible for any believer in Christ to break the Sabbath, as there are no longer any rules against work on the 7th day.
Bob 2 said: Being "Lord of the Sabbath" if one reads the NT/NC first, might assume that being "Lord of the Sabbath" gives the authority to Jesus to take the Sabbath in different direction, even abrogating it or extending the coverage, being more strict. Here one can only be honest with his originating mindset.
Tom said: Why would Jesus become the Lord of the Sabbath so he can do away with it? That makes no sense. One does not stand up to protect something that is going to be removed and thrown away. Jesus teaches an ongoing 7th day Sabbath doctrine for the church. This is why he claims to be the Lord of this doctrine, so he can protect and defend it.
If he wanted to remove it, or change it into Sunday, or into an Every Day spiritual doctrine, the Gospel record would reflect it. But this is not what the Gospels teach. Not even close.
Bob 2 posted: Tom Wells makes the following statement: …while Moses was the lawgiver in the Old Testament, so the law is referred to as the Mosaic Law, Jesus is the lawgiver of the New Testament.
Tom said: Correct. The law of Christ contains his reformed, 7th day, active Sabbath. The Gospels are very clear on this point. Anyone that wants to understand the Gospel Sabbath must go to Christ and learn from him. He is the teacher we are the students.
Matt. 10:25 “It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for the New Covenant, 7th day Sabbath of Christ
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Tom, I'll be brief, NCT says the Gospel is the Gospel + nothing. The scholars you use say it is the Gospel + Sunday and argue that the Ten Commandments are still in force. GO FIGURE. At least NCT is consistent and scriptural. There is no scriptural basis for a mandated Sunday or a mandated Rest Day. The Rest God and Jesus mean is spoken of in Heb 4. 2 Cor 3 is pretty clear about the 'the letters... engraved letters on stone". I have not seen you or anyone else refute this. Maybe it is hidden somewhere in the long epistles you write.But one has to wade through a lot of your unnecessary stuff to get to your point. Why not work on that, or copy the sentence with the conclusion to your vast writing. It might help the discussion go a little more quickly. I say this, because I believe you want people to think this is a vast area of study. It really is pretty simple.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-01-13 1:00 pm)
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Tom said:
Moreover, we don’t have to assume that the NC Sabbath would be as strict as the OC Sabbath. On what basis do you reach such a conclusion?
Just about every other of the 10 Commandments are expanded on, example Adultery is now Lust also, killing now becomes Hating also. Don't play so dumb. But the Sabbath he clarifies to a simple doctrine at least while he is alive. He never declares the Sabbath the greatest Commandment or brings it up even in the Sermon on the Mount or when he visits the Disciples after His death before His Ascension or at His Ascension . He never explains, nor you, why the 4th Commandment is the first Appointed Festival of Leviticus 23? Also, look at His opportunity to tell the Samaritan woman at the well, that He knows WHERE everyone, Jew and Gentile, will worship, but not on what day, if it is as significant as you say.
Most of NCT opponents realize that it isn't just about the Sabbath, it is about the restructuring of Covenant Theology to the New Covenant Theology. That job is apt to have some parishioners get up and walk out with their substantial donations. Can you imagine the Sunday morning that one of the preachers say he now is going to teach New Covenant Theology and gets to the place where he says the 10 Commandment will no longer be the center of our behaviorial standards, but Christ's Law that you have to study to have it revealed to you, Christ's life, the Apostles and what was revealed to them, .... I can see an empty church by the time he drops the "bomb" of New Covenant Theology! Again this is not just a Sabbath issue as you tend to make it. That shows you do not have a handle on it, just that it goes against your Reformed Sabbath, and as much as you have written, I see your face paling as you realize the writing you will have to do to explain yourself. The most startling thing you do is quote Sunday keepers saying there is no change with the NC. Very telling. Whatever works, eh, Tom???? God didn't anywhere in the scripture separate the OC into civil, ceremonial or moral. He speaks of it as Moses Law. Big change!!!!
Last edited by bob_2 (06-30-13 9:52 pm)
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