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Double-Talk About the Fundamentals / June 6, 2014 / TOM NORRIS, for Adventist Reform
In response to:
Spectrum / Adventism and Fundamentalism Cannot Thrive Together/ May 22, 2014 | SAM MILLEN, SDA Pastor
http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2014/0 … e-together
Today, as the Advent Movement continues to implode, there is understandably a lot of discussion taking place about how to address this obvious crisis, which is only getting worse. Too bad the church leaders have learned nothing from the past 40 years. They still pretend Dr. Ford was wrong at Glacier View and they still refuse to get serious about much needed Adventist Reform.
Consequently, instead of promoting serious dialogue about repentance and doctrinal reform, the church has doubled down on their errors concerning 1844, 1888, and Glacier View. Even in the face of obvious Denominational collapse, with the Review closing and millions of once loyal members leaving, the leaders still refuse to admit any errors about false doctrine. Instead of reform, they have chosen more hierarchical double-talk and targeted censorship calculated to avoid the real issues. Such an outdated, dishonest, and discriminatory policy will not save Adventism.
In the past, before the Internet, the 20th century SDA’s were experts at public relations, spin, and mind control. They skillfully used their Media Empire, and especially the White Estate, to re-enforce their legalistic, Takoma Park brand, indoctrinating millions into believing myths and numerous false doctrines. However, both technology and knowledge have increased to such a point, that this policy has now backfired for all to see.
Propaganda and censorship are not to be confused with correct Gospel doctrine or honest church history. Millions of former SDA’s have already reached this conclusion. The fact of the matter is that all modern SDA’s were taught many errors, especially about Ellen White, the Gospel, and church history. Even the strongest points used by the conservatives to defend the IJ have turned out to be manipulated and false. Ellen White does not support the IJ as the White Estate has claimed all these years, which means Traditional Adventism is built on myths, half-truths, and fraud.
Although it is understandable that the leaders would be fearful of admitting they have been wrong all these years, and that Glacier View was a huge error, such self-serving fears are beside the point. The Adventist Community deserves to know the facts; even if it means that the Denomination will be embarrassed and vilified, viewed as corrupt for deceiving millions over the years. But truth will not remain covered up forever.
Gal. 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
The time is long overdue for everyone within the Adventist Community to wake up and understand that their leaders have been very dishonest, incompetent, and hypocritical for generations. Denial and censorship is futile. Unless the modern Adventists can face up to the facts and admit they have made serious doctrinal errors in their "creed," and focus on genuine Reform and honest church history, they are doomed. They will continue to self-destruct for all to see. Like the Jews they emulate, they have no one to blame but themselves.
Luke 12: 1. “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
Luke 12:2 “But there is nothing covered up that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.
Luke 12:3 “Accordingly, whatever you have said in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in the inner rooms will be proclaimed upon the housetops.
Today, the SDA’s are still obsessed with censorship, cover-up, and the continued manipulation of the issues. They still refuse to allow any serious or pointed criticism of their doctrines, much less about the IJ, church history, or the White Estate. Such an anti-Gospel position will be their ruin if they do not soon repent and change their ways. But so far, there has been no evidence in the 21st century to show that the SDA leaders are interested in truth telling or repentance, much less doctrinal reform.
Although Tom Norris is a life long SDA from Takoma Park who has done original research in the White Estate and Church Archives, he has, like Dr. Ford, been banished from participating in any discussions. He is not allowed to comment about any article in the SDA media, including Spectrum. Why? Because he is one of very few ever allowed to research in the White Estate, and thus he knows the facts like few others. But he does not work for the church, and thus he cannot be controlled or silenced like so many others on the hierarchical payroll.
Tom Norris knows too many facts that the Denomination does not want the Adventist Community to know. So he must be censored and silenced. The leaders know he caught Arthur White, and others, dishonestly and outrageously manipulating Ellen White’s writings, a fact that the Denomination has covered up and hidden numerous times, even to this very day. Too bad for them that their cover-up and censorship is not working.
Hidden Documents in White Estate
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … uments.htm
Ellen White
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=225
Let all understand, there has been a massive, long running, cover-up taking place in the White Estate. Tom Norris uncovered this fraud many years ago, and he refuses to be silenced about what he found in the White Estate and the Archives. The very fact that the hierarchy has banished genuine Adventist Reform from all SDA media, fearful of what Tom Norris has to say, only underscores that the leaders are not only guilty as charged, but they are still committed to protecting their long running cover up, which is destroying Adventism. Shame on these Pharisees.
Site History
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=224
I repeat, there is a massive publishing fraud taking place in the White Estate and the top leaders have known about it for decades. It is immoral and criminal. It is the source for all the confusion, error, and schism that has overwhelmed Adventism in the last 40 years. The White Estate is a cancer that is destroying the Advent Movement. It is irrational and self-destructive to pretend otherwise and ignore this fatal situation, but this has been the policy of this dishonest church for generations. Protect the White Estate at all costs. Don't admit to anything. Pretend all is well.
Moreover, everyone should understand that this fraud in the White Estate became the basis for Traditional SDA theology that was codified by the post Glacier View creed called the 27 Fundamentals. Glacier View and the SDA creed are based on knowingly fraudulent church history and theology. The SDA creed represents the great sin that took place at Glacier View. It is the reason for the demise of the Advent Movement.
Let everyone understand that the White Estate, which is owned, controlled, and managed by the General Conference, is a crime scene. It has been, and still is, an agent of deceit, fraud, and dishonesty. The White Estate has not acted in the best interests of Ellen White or the Adventist Community. This corrupt institution must be cleaned up and reformed, correcting the record and truthfully explaining the details of the 1888 debate and Ellen White’s real positions about many doctrinal points, including the IJ.
So Tom Norris is banned for a reason. He is a “whistle blower” that knows not only what happened in Battle Creek, but also how the Takoma Park leaders hid the record of the 1888 debates so that they could invent a fraudulent history for the 20th century church to embrace. When this hidden stash of documents was discovered in 1979, and shown to the leaders, they covered it up and went forward with Glacier View anyway. They knew they were wrong, which is why they covered up this great discovery in the White Estate. The top SDA leaders have broken faith with the Pioneers and with the Advent Community, and they don't want their guilt to be known. So they cover-up what they have done, all the while refusing to admit their creed a farce.
Tom Norris has the facts. He is a witness to Arthur White’s criminal behavior. He can prove that the White Estate, with the full knowledge and participation of the highest General Conference officers, has covered up and hidden thousands of Ellen White documents about the doctrinal debates that destroyed the Battle Creek Empire. Then the leaders inserted myths into the record so they could dictate false doctrine and history to the Adventist Community.
Glacier View was a show trial. It was based on known fraud and fabrications in the White Estate. If this wicked and illegal SDA charade continues, the hierarchy will be facing a class action lawsuit for publishing fraud. Just as the church shows no mercy to those they drag into court for trademark infringement, no mercy will be shown to this very dishonest, billion dollar, religious enterprise when they are forced to face up to the largest publishing fraud in modern church history.
The leaders need to understand that their futile attempts to censor and silence Tom Norris is not working, nor will it ever work. If they continue this cover-up, legal action will become inevitable. Then everyone will know about the corruption of Adventism.
One way or another, the modern Adventist Community is going to be made aware of this massive, ongoing fraud that is the primary source for the demise of modern Adventism. Then it will become clear to all why things have gone downhill ever since Glacier View. In spite of the leaders claim to follow Jesus, the SDA Denomination, and especially the White Estate, is a criminal enterprise. They follow their own policy of secrecy, fraud, and censorship, something that is not taught by Christ.
The SDA leaders are not above the law; they stand guilty for what they have done, and then for covering it up over and over. Make no mistake, the leaders will be held accountable for their massive fraud. They have hurt and misled millions of people and the time is coming for the Denomination to explain to both the court and to the Adventist Community why they have been so dishonest for so long. Then the world will understand why there has been so much confusion, error, and schism for so many years within Adventism. The source is the White Estate.
Today, it is futile to try and silence and censor those that have a story to tell. In the old days, before the Internet, such a religious ban would be the end of the discussion. When the leaders placed topics and critics off limits, they had the means to enforce such censorship, controlling both the agenda and the flow of information. But not now. The world has changed for the better. There is knowledge, literally in the air, flowing all around us. No one today can really be censored or silenced. Thus Dr. Ford continues to preach the Gospel online, while Tom Norris publically pushes Adventist Reform forward, making sure that the corruption in the White Estate is exposed for all to see.
http://www.goodnewsunlimited.com
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=11
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm
With all this in mind, it is time to comment about a Spectrum article titled “Adventism and Fundamentalism Cannot Thrive Together.” Of course, no remarks from Tom Norris are permitted by Spectrum. So this public response is made, not only to refute this awful article, but to also show the futility of trying to keep this massive cover-up in the White Estate out of sight. Cover-ups do not last forever; eventually the truth emerges for all to see.
See: Spectrum / Adventism and Fundamentalism Cannot Thrive Together/ 22 May 2014 | SAM MILLEN
http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2014/0 … e-together
While this Spectrum article sounds like it is addressing serious Adventist Reform, even as it tries to sound evangelical, no one should be fooled. It is nothing but worthless doubletalk and misdirection, which is typical of modern Adventism. Spectrum should be ashamed for publishing such nonsense and even more embarrassed at their policy of censoring those that know how to reform the dying Advent Movement.
Moreover, a church Pastor wrote this article, and thus we should not expect anything close to a serious discussion about doctrine or reform, much less honest church history. Church workers, like Spectrum, are neither free nor independent; they are not allowed to be critical of their leaders, much less question church doctrine or history, which is not even discussed in this useless article. Let’s take a closer look at this doubletalk being promoted by Spectrum.
The author, who is a paid church worker, starts off by addressing the issue of the SDA “creed.” He correctly states that the Pioneers were dead set against a written creed and thus they refused to draft such a document, which they considered wrong.
However, the writer fails to communicate to the reader any context or background about when the modern SDA creed was written and under what circumstances. This was no accident, but part of the typical double-talk and half-truths that permeate all SDA discussion.
SDA Creed
http://www.adventist.org/fileadmin/adve … nglish.pdf
This slippery Pastor pretends that the 28 Fundamentals are not a real creed because of some wording in the preamble that claims the Bible is our only creed, and that revisions should be expected. Thus, he concludes that it is only a “working document,” and “not a creed.”
Wow! Here is the logic of wolves in action. All evidence is twisted to support the status quo, regardless of logic or truth. So this is not going to be an honest, thoughtful, or factual article about SDA doctrine or the Fundamentals. Rather, it is an insulting attempt to support the leaders and their worthless creed. It was written with a pre-determined, anti-Gospel, agenda that has nothing to do with the real issues, much less Adventist Reform.
Let’s stop the childish double-talk and deal with the facts:
Question: Do the SDA’s have a written creed or not?
Answer: Yes. They have a written creed called the 28 Fundamentals.
Question: When was this creed written and did the Pioneers authorize or support it?
Answer: A White Estate employee was tasked to write the creed, directly after the trial of Dr. Desmond Ford at Glacier View in 1980. It reflected the errors and myths of Traditional, legalistic, Adventism and was not supported by the Pioneers whatsoever, much less the Bible.
Glacier View Creed
Let everyone understand, the SDA “creed” is a reflection of the great error that took place at Glacier View. More than that, it is full of doctrinal error and known historical fraud. Which is why millions of SDA’s have left the Denomination, and more leave all the time. It is because of false doctrines featured in the SDA creed. Starting with the IJ and then the issues about Ellen White’s authority and teaching.
I repeat, there was no SDA “creed” until GLACIER VIEW in 1980. The 28 Fundamentals reflect the false theology and manipulated church history of the White Estate, which played out at Glacier View. Glacier View was the place where the errors and false doctrines of the Takoma Park apologists became codified in a written creed. This is where the Denomination went wrong and this is where they can change their downward trajectory by repudiating Glacier View and the Creed that resulted. If the Glacier View Creed is not repudiated by the SDA's, they will continue to self-destruct in arrogence and doctrinal fraud. It is just this simple.
Regardless what the SDA’s claim, today they are a “creedal people.” They have a well promoted creed that they invented in 1980, and they used it to exile Dr. Ford and hundreds of pastors, teaches, and church workers that refused to embrace the false idol called the IJ. Any pastor today that refuses to embrace this creed, especially when it comes to tithe, the IJ, or Ellen White, will soon be fired. This is common knowledge. This is why the author, and Spectrum, cannot allow a serious, factual, discussion about the issues. It is not permitted by the leaders, who are the real problems. They are the ones that have ruined Adventism, and rather then repent, they continue to pretend they are innocent when they are incompetent and corrupt.
Creedal Doubletalk
Although the stated “intent” of the author was to write about the SDA creed, he makes it clear that he has no intention “to question any one of our 28 Fundamental Beliefs.” So what is the point of any discussion about Adventist Reform, if not to question the creed and resolve the issues? This is the problem with Adventism, neither church workers or members are free to think or study for themselves, much less question the SDA creed. They are bought and paid for by the heiarchy, which means they really have nothing to say, except for propaganda, which is what is going on here; worthless double-talk about the SDA creed.
Moreover, what is this remark about “others have accepted” a role of questioning doctrine and promoting reform? Who are these “others?” And how are they being treated within our community? Anyone that seriously questions the SDA creed is censored, silenced, and shunned. This is why Dr. Ford was exiled at Glacier View, and why Tom Norris has been censored from telling the Adventist Community what he found in the White Estate. The SDA’s do not allow serious, grown up, doctrinal discussion within Adventism, (or at Spectrum), so what we get is confused, trite articles, full of errors, omissions, and misdirection. This is typical of the worthless blabber that comes from the church’s media empire. As we have said, what worked in the 1950’s will not work in the 21st century. People are thinking for themselves, no longer willing to trust the SDA leaders.
Spectrum should be ashamed for their pandering to the hierarchy and censoring the open and honest reform discussion, but they are not. They are too busy trying to raise funds for themselves so that they can continue to pretend they are reforming Adventism. Spectrum is focused on finding money, not on finding truth.
As if to underscore the uselessness of this hierarchical propaganda, the Pastor concludes that his “primary responsibility” is not to “question” any SDA doctrine, but to “point to Jesus and build relationships.”
Really? How can any doctrinal issues be addressed and resolved if they are off limits for study, discussion, and correction? Does the author not know that Jesus is the greatest of all doctrines? And that the Gospel teachings of Christ are the basis for all Christian doctrine and creed? Apparently not.
In Adventism, Jesus is often used as a reason not to discuss controversial doctrines, and this author does not fail to make this absurd, anti-Gospel point, which is nothing more than error and blasphemy.
The SDA’s do not understand, much less embrace the Gospel teachings of
Christ. If they did, the author would have to conclude that the SDA creed must be tested by the teachings of Christ. Not ignored in his name.
Wherever the creed falls short, false doctrine must be removed. However, such Gospel Reform is not allowed, or even imagined within hierarchical, Old Covenant, creedal Adventism. Jesus is used by the SDA’s as an excuse not to examine or discuss doctrine; a reason to keep embracing false doctrine. Which only proves that they are following a false, worthless Christ of their own delusions.
Consequently, this talk about “pointing to Jesus” is worthless religious jargon that is void of any real meaning. It is code for trying to escape the rigors of doctrinal examination; an excuse to embrace false doctrine. No one should listen to any Pastor who uses the name of Christ in such a false manner. Jesus does not teach that those in the church should avoid doctrinal discussion in his name. There is no such Gospel doctrine.
Today, the SDA’s are so confused and wrong about Gospel doctrine, that few of them today are paying attention to the genuine Christ. Consequently, they have very little truth, and no credibility. Let everyone understand that the SDA’s point to a worthless Christ as a cover-up for their many false doctrines. They use Jesus as a diversion to stop Gospel reform, even as they think of him as a lawgiver, like Moses. The SDA view of Christ and his Gospel is so off the mark as to be blasphemous and anti-Christ. Which is why they need to repent, not pretend they have no false doctrine.
Here are the hard questions about doctrine and the SDA creed that must be addressed: Does Jesus support and teach the IJ? Does Jesus teach the OC doctrine of the Sabbath, claiming it is sinful to work on the 7th day as the SDA’s teach?
Answer: No, and no!
What about abstinence, tithe paying, or a hierarchical church structure? Does Jesus teach these SDA doctrines?
Answer: No, no, and no!
The SDA’s have created a false and mythical doctrine about Jesus and the church. They hide behind Jesus name, using it to cover up their errors, which are officially represented in the post Glacier View creed that has no sanction from the Pioneers, much less Christ or the NT. Thus the SDA’s take the name of Jesus in vein as they teach a worthless and false Gospel from a defective, fraud-based creed.
Matt. 15:9 ‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’”
A Call for Pluralism
After wasting the reader’s time with this diversionary propaganda, the author concludes with the typical appeal for unity and pluralism, which was the real objective of the article all along. Like so many other articles in the Adventist Media, the author pleads for the dying Adventist community to be “willing to accept those with different views…unless they are being disruptive.”
The point of this article is not to call for doctrinal study or Adventist reform. Hardly. The church does not allow anyone to seriously question its creed, and this Pastor has made sure he has complied with the rules of his employment. Rather, the suggestion is that everyone should ignore the creed, where they don’t like it, and pretend they support some type of general SDA creed that is in their own mind. It is a political call to support the hierarchy, not a Gospel call to repent, much less search for new truth.
Where Are the Reformers?
What does “disruptive” mean? It means those that stand for genuine Gospel Reform, like Dr. Ford or Tom Norris, and condemn the church’s many false doctrines, starting with the IJ, will not be given a seat at the table. They will be censored, slandered, and excommunicated unless they agree to wink at the errors in the SDA creed, and stop demanding the repeal of false doctrine. The leaders will not tolerate truth telling, much less genuine Gospel Reform, so they routinely censor and banish those that can prove them wrong. Spectrum is no different.
This article was never about serious Adventist reform, but about how to ignore the many errors and false doctrines that are embedded in the SDA creed. A creed, which was the direct result of the Glacier View debacle in 1980.
Shame on Spectrum for being part of this fraud. They have always pretended to be part of the solution, but it fact, they are controlled by the hierarchy. Proving that the liberal elites don’t understand the Gospel or church history any better than the angry conservatives that pushed Glacier View forward. Both are responsible for the present demise of Adventism.
Today, millions and millions of former Adventists have correctly repudiated the SDA creed and left the Denomination. And many more millions repudiate it that were never Adventists. I join them all in denouncing the wicked, anti-Gospel “creed” that codifies Old Covenant Adventism, pretending to be truth, when it is mostly error and theological incompetence.
Let all understand: most of the SDA creed is full of false doctrine, - like the IJ, Tithing, and OC Sabbath keeping. And of course the error about Ellen White having doctrinal authority, which she never would endorse had she been alive.
So there are specific doctrines that must be challenged, discussed and corrected. Glacier View was not the end of the discussion, but the beginning. Censoring those with the facts and pretending that false doctrines are true is not helpful. Nor is it reform. It is more of the same of old anti-Gospel nonsense that has ruined the Advent Movement.
Jesus has a message for the SDA Community today; he wants them to “zealously repent.” This is not to be confused with zealously censoring the critics and silencing those that seek genuine reform. Christ is calling the SDA’s blind, naked, and wretched for a reason. This is the genuine Pre-Advent Judgment of the church, which is found, not in Dan 8:14, but in Rev 3: 14. All SDA’s should pay attention to Christ, not to the SDA creed, which is full of error and must be corrected.
Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
While Spectrum pretends to be “independent” and open to discuss reform, this is not really true. They are neither independent nor honest, and this article about “Adventism and Fundamentalism” is just another example of worthless propaganda from the delusional and self-serving Adventist Media. Such misleading articles from church workers are not helpful or true. They only underscore how corrupt and foolish the Denomination has become to believe their own propaganda. Shame on Spectrum for pretending they are something they are not. They are part of the problem, unable and unwilling to stand up for genuine Gospel Reform.
Let all understand that the Advent Movement is being destroyed by the 1980 fundamentalist creed that was written following Glacier View. Adventism cannot go forward in search of more truth with such a flawed, Old Covenant mind set. Christ does not teach the IJ, much less many other SDA doctrines like tithe or OC Sabbath keeping, which the Adventists have not fully or correctly comprehended as yet. They are far too busy hiding documents and making up tall tales about the Pioneers to find truth.
Unless and until the outcome of Glacier View is reversed, and the leaders confess they were wrong about the IJ, and apologize to Dr. Ford, the SDA’s will continue to self-destruct. Like the Jews, they are paying the price for rejecting the evidence and exiling those, like Dr. Ford, who are telling the truth about doctrine and church history.
Earth has never been closer to the final Apocalypse. It is time for the Advent Movement to move forward from the collapsing 3rd Angels Message and move forward to understand and proclaim the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18, with clarity and power.
The Adventist Movement must rise, shine, and do its duty. It must refocus on credible Gospel Eschatology, moving forward to prepare the last church for the great Time of Trouble and the 2nd Coming, which is the end of the world, as we know it.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform
Offline
To: Tom Norris,
Tom, I started reading your Knowledge base years ago and you have been steadfast. And I have learned a lot! I truly enjoy reading your material and answers, I feel fully fed when I read the truth your providing.
Have you written any books about the History of Adventism someone can get their hands on? Any books or study guides at all?
I remember you started a website http://www.adventistreform.com/
I can no longer find it? Do you have a website anymore? There was good information about Dr. Desmond Ford and how he stood up at Glacier view.
Thanks to you I fully understand the true Gospel about the Law and Grace and how legalistic I was and the Church still is.
I pray for the work, your health and insight you provide!
I have asked you many questions in the past. Since it was not a doctrinal question I made this private but if you want to share it you can!
God bless, Thanks,
Ricky Love, from Louisiana
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Ricky, good to hear from you. Thank you for your kind words of support.
I remember that 1) you asked some very good questions, and 2) you were looking for truthful answers, not just what you wanted to hear.
“Many” people pretend to seek Gospel truth, when in fact, they are traveling on the wrong path, only trying to validate their false traditions. Good for you to be part of the “few” that has found the genuine teachings of Christ, which leads to the hope of Eternal Life.
Matt. 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
As for writing, although I need to find time to write some books about Adventist history and theology, there is a lot of material posted at ATomorrow.Net.
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=11
Atomorrow.net features Adventist Reform. It includes a number of discussions about doctrine and church history, including a lot of material about the Gospel Sabbath, which no church or denomination today has correct. There are also discussions about alcohol, tithe, and eschatology, as well as the IJ, Dr. Ford, and a lot about Ellen White.
Because the SDA’s have banned me from their Forums, I often use the ATomorrow site to reply to their editorials. Here is a recent reply to a Spectrum Article about Ellen White.
The Truth About Ellen White: by Tom Norris, Jan 24, 2015
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … 191#p12191
Gospel regards,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform & All Experts.Com
Offline
Dear Tom,
I am so glad I found you. I am a practicing SDA born and raised for 58 yrs and 3rd generation. In the past 2 yrs I have been questioning the doctrines of my faith and EGW.
As you know that is a no no in the SDA church. It means I am being lead by a demon spirit, I am being shaken out all of which EGW claimed would happen. So I have been researching and its been painful to say the least. But the internet can go either direction you can find anything to confirm your beliefs or confirm that what you have believed has been false. And of course I have a guilt complex for even searching. Am I doing what the Jews did to their prophets by questioning EGW and will I be left out of heaven? All that guilt which just being SDA puts on us all!
I have heard that John Harvey Kellogg was a Pantheist and he was condemned by EGW. And to this day that is the belief that conservative SDA hold. I have wanted to read his book but I have not. No one has read his book the Living Temple but believe that EGW was right. Same with Desmond Ford who my dad struggled with his take on the Sanctuary which is biblical and my dad believed Desmond Ford to be correct from his own study of the bible yet in spite of that my dad believed the SOP over the bible and he died have a very difficult time with EGW and the bible he could not reconcile many things.But he could not give up his faith.
This is where I am today. I am searching for truth.
Kellogg is a question that I have for you was he a pantheist?
And today, we as SDA's, are looking for a Sunday law. What is your take on that and will there be one are we looking for something that will never take place?
Is the Mark of the Beast Sunday?
What is the abomination of desolation that Daniel 9:27 speaks of and Jesus as well in Matt. 24. It is a sign of the soon coming of Jesus and SDA understand it to be the Sunday. Is Sunday a test for endtime Christians?
I have so many questions but this is enough for now.
Blessings,
Kelley McElroy
================================================================================
Tom Norris answers:
Kelley said: I am so glad I found you. I am a practicing SDA born and raised for 58 yrs and 3rd generation. In the past 2 yrs I have been questioning the doctrines of my faith and EGW.
Tom said: Today, legions of SDA’s no longer trust Ellen White or Adventist theology. Consequently, millions have left the church since Glacier View in 1980, and more leave all the time. The Advent Movement is dying for all to see. Unless something is honestly done to address this ongoing crisis, Adventism will collapse. And the end of the world will have nothing to do with it.
Kelley said: As you know, questioning is a “no no” in the SDA church. It means I am being led by a demon spirit, I am being shaken out, - all of which EGW claimed would happen.
Tom said: Ellen White would be the first to urge everyone to question and study the issues for themselves. She would never want anyone to blindly embrace any doctrine, much less because this is what the leaders promote.
Moreover, Ellen White never claimed to have biblical authority, as the church teaches today, much less to have all the answers and become part of a Creed. While that is what the White Estate teaches, they have been very dishonest and manipulative about Ellen White’s Story. So much so, that the real Ellen White of history has yet to emerge. What all have been taught is full of myth, fiction, and fraud.
Let everyone understand: the White Estate is guilty of a massive publishing fraud. One that is still ongoing today.
Kelley said: So I have been researching and it’s been painful to say the least. But the Internet can go either direction you can find anything to confirm your beliefs or confirm that what you have believed has been false. And of course I have a guilt complex for even searching.
Tom said: Today, there is a war taking place on the Internet over Ellen White. First, it was the critics that set up one website after another to prove Ellen White and her views wrong. After a number of years of such bashing, the SDA leaders launched a counter offensive, which includes scores of stealth websites that defend Ellen White, showing her to be credible and true. What a mess!
If one did not know better, it would appear from the Internet that millions support and defend Ellen White, even as millions despise and hate her. But only the latter is true. Adventism is decimated today because so few believe in her. She has become a pariah for the fractured and self-destructing SDA’s. Her reputation has been ruined, and so too the entire Advent Movement, but yet, the White Estate pretends all is correct and well, when everyone knows otherwise.
The Adventist Community must understand that propaganda is not the same as facts. Regardless of how many millions are spent on the endless promotion of Ellen White’s books, and in the defense of Ellen White’s official story, she has lost the public debate. The apologists are wasting their time, and ours, trying to pretend there are no serious problems with Ellen White and church history.
Something is very wrong in the White Estate and there is no use in denying what is so obvious.
The Truth About Ellen White: by Tom Norris, Jan 24, 2015
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … 191#p12191
Kelley asked: Am I doing what the Jews did to their prophets by questioning EGW and will I be left out of heaven? All that guilt which just being SDA puts on us all!
Tom said: First off, Ellen White was never a “prophet” as the Takoma Park apologists taught us all to believe. That myth was promoted by the Takoma Park apologists, becoming official church doctrine after Glacier View.
Is Ellen White A False Prophet?
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … rophet.htm
Second, the real Ellen White spoke truth to power and defied the church leaders. She compared the SDA’s to the unbelieving Jews, both before and after 1888. In fact, she specifically condemned Uriah Smith for being like the Gospel hating Jews, but the Takoma Park apologists suppressed this history. The White Estate has manipulated Ellen White’s condemnation of the leaders, spinning it around to make the members feel guilty and wrong.
"I entreat you, brethren, be not like the Pharisees, who were blinded with spiritual pride, self-righteousness, and self-sufficiency, and who because of this were forsaken of God. For years I have been receiving instructions and warnings that this was the danger to our people." The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, p. 166.
If Ellen White were alive today, she would condemn, not the confused members that have been deceived about church history, but the corrupt and dishonest leaders for misrepresenting her views. She would denounce the White Estate in the most vivid terms for suppressing her documents and her true views, demanding that the record be corrected immediately.
Third. Ellen White urged all to press forward in the investigation of the scriptures, certain that more truth, from the Bible, was ahead for SDA’s.
“There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. “Counsels to Writers and Editors, pages 33-42
When God's Word is studied, comprehended, and obeyed, a bright light will be reflected to the world; new truths, received and acted upon, will bind us in strong bonds to Jesus. The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this Holy Word will be in harmony. Our own views and ideas must not control our efforts. Man is fallible, but God's Word is infallible. Instead of wrangling with one another, let men exalt the Lord. Let us meet all opposition as did our Master, saying, "It is written." Let us lift up the banner on which is inscribed, The Bible our rule of faith and discipline.
The Review and Herald, Dec. 15, 1885.
Kelley said: I have heard that John Harvey Kellogg was a Pantheist and he was condemned by EGW. And to this day that is the belief that conservative SDA’s hold. I have wanted to read his book but I have not. No one has read his book the Living Temple but believe that EGW was right. Kellogg is a question that I have for you was he a pantheist?
Tom replied: The White Estate has not been honest about church history. They have not told the truth about many leading characters in Battle Creek, such as Uriah Smith, Canright, Waggoner and Jones, Kellogg, and especially James and Ellen White. This is the real cause for the demise of modern Adventism, - the fraud in the White Estate.
JHK was a Pluralist, NOT a Pantheist. His real problem with Ellen White was the fact that he cared nothing for Adventist eschatology. In the aftermath and vacuum of the 1888 debacle, JHK tried to rebrand Adventism into a social model, where health and humanitarian activities took center stage. This infuriated Ellen White, who had given her life promoting an apocalyptic version of Adventism that featured the 2nd Coming.
See:
J H Kellogg, Living Temple, & the Omega; by Tom Norris
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=229
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harve … ical_views
http://www.amazon.com/Living-Temple-Joh … 1104498014
https://archive.org/details/J.H.Kellogg … Temple1903
http://text.egwwritings.org/publication … number=433
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralism
Kelley said: Same with Desmond Ford who my dad struggled with his take on the Sanctuary, which is biblical, and my dad believed Desmond Ford to be correct from his own study of the bible; yet in spite of that my dad believed the SOP over the bible and he died have a very difficult time with EGW and the bible he could not reconcile many things. But he could not give up his faith.
Tom replied: Glacier View was a disgrace. Dr. Ford was treated very badly by the church leaders. Contrary to slander, Ford also thought very highly of Ellen White, believing she was an honest and spiritually gifted Christian. Dr. Ford was not fooled by the White Estates manipulated story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Ford
https://www.facebook.com/drdesford
Moreover, Dr. Ford was correct about the IJ as well as the definition of the Gospel and church history. It was the leaders that were confused and very wrong.
http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … /intro.cfm
Everyone needs to understand that Ellen White’s view about the IJ was not, and is not today, being honestly or accurately reported by the church.
Dr. Ford was 100% correct to refute this giant myth that claimed the IJ was a fundamental pillar from the 1st Angels Message, thus making it a permanent doctrine. This was never true. The IJ was never part of Rev 14: 7; never a “pillar” in the 1st Angels Message, and Ellen White never said otherwise.
The only “Judgment pillar” in the entire Three Angels Message is Rev 14: 7, which is only about the 2nd Coming. Ellen White, as well as Uriah Smith, Andrews, and all the Pioneers, agree, agree, agree, with Dr. Ford on this critical eschatological point, which overthrows Traditional, Takoma Park, Adventism.
See:
The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227
Kelley said: This is where I am today. I am searching for truth.
Tom said: Those that confess their confusion, honestly seeking Gospel truth, will find it. However, those that defend their traditions and errors, like the Jews, seeing only what they want to see, are blind to truth, unable to comprehend the Gospel.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Kelley asked: Today, we as SDA’s are looking for a Sunday law. What is your take on that and will there be one are we looking for something that will never take place? Is the Mark of the Beast Sunday?
Tom said: First, no one should expect 19th century eschatology to perform flawlessly in the 21st century. That is a ludicrous proposition. Adventist eschatology, in real time, was full of many flaws and errors, which is why it went through so many changes. (1st, 2nd, and 3rd, Angels Messages)
If it didn’t work in the 19th or 20th centuries, why would it function now in our advanced 21st century age? It will not work. Look around; it is not working. Adventist eschatology, which includes the great error about the IJ, is absurd and legalistic, as well as unbiblical and against the Gospel and the fundamentals of the Advent Movement.
The word eschatology means last thing. And for us today, that relates to the 21st century, not to the 19th. Most of what was taught in Battle Creek and Takoma Park was not only wrong, it is long outdated today.
However, not everything is wrong about Adventist eschatology. They did invent the basic eschatological platform about the 2nd Coming that every denomination has since embraced. So we are not saying Adventism has no value. It does.
The Adventists invented modern eschatology. As part of this process, they also discovered the Three Angels Messages of Rev 14, and a Fourth and final Advent Message in Rev 18. Thus the SDA’s focused on how to prepare the church for the 2nd Coming and the inevitable, end of the world. What could be more timely and necessary?
Considering that the Adventists discovered modern eschatology, it should not be surprising that some points of Adventist eschatology are still valid today, even critical to our future understanding of last day events. But instead of updating an outdated view of eschatology, and searching for more truth, the SDA leaders deny free speech and censor the critics, like Dr. Ford, who understands Gospel truth for the 21st century.
It is time for 21st century eschatology; time for the Advent Movement to wake up and start searching for more truth. The defense of error must stop.
Sunday Laws: Mark of the Beast:
The 19th century SDA’s were obsessed about the 7th day Sabbath. As part of their Protestant eschatology; they viewed Sunday worship as sinful and against the Moral law as well as the teachings of Christ.
Moreover, they viewed the final Gospel call as featuring the 7th day Sabbath, so this doctrine became part of their Gospel eschatology. Those that refused to give up the false Sabbath, Sunday, would have the mark of the beast, which beast was the RCC.
Mark of the Beast/ Sunday Laws
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ayLaws.htm
While the SDA’s were correct to point out the fraud of Sunday, are they correct about the Sabbath? Well, they did get the right day; but not the correct doctrine. They have embraced the Old Covenant teaching of the Sabbath, not the New Covenant doctrine that Christ teaches in the Gospels. The Jews made the same mistake.
SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836
The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228
Kelly asked: What is the abomination of desolation that Daniel 9:27 speaks of and Jesus as well in Matt. 24. It is a sign of the soon coming of Jesus? The SDA’s understand it to be the Sunday. Is Sunday a test for endtime Christians?
Tom said: The Gospel has nothing to do with Sunday laws. The AOD has zero to do with Sunday laws, as the SDA’s teach. In fact, when it comes to the book of Daniel, the SDA’s are very wrong and confused about many things. Dr. Ford is a world-class expert on this ancient book, but the church leaders exiled him to make them look correct. But it did not change the facts.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … e-once.htm
At some point, the Adventist Community needs to repent for both 1888 and Glacier View, fully comprehend the Gospel and the New Covenant doctrine of the Sabbath. They also need to uncover the final details about how the world will really end, take action to survive the great tribulation that Jesus teaches will come to the last generation. This is the noble mission of the Advent Movement.
Kelley said: I have so many questions but this is enough for now.
Tom said: There is a lot of information online at both All Experts and ATomorrow.
Gospel regards,
Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform
Offline
Tom thanks so much for answering my questions I so much appreciate it!
When you say that SDA's are not following the Sabbath correctly or they are legalistic in their Sabbath Keeping and do not understand the 4th commandment what do you mean? Can you give an example as to how the Sabbath should be kept?
Is the SDA church the remnant church? And are Sunday keepers the fallen churches?
When Jesus said "If you love me keep my commandments" SDA say that obedience to the law is what we must do. But, I hear you say something different. What does "if you love me, keep my commandments" mean then? What did Jesus mean when he said that?
You have not talked on the millennium? I have been taught it was to be in heaven for 1000 yrs. That's my understanding and all of SDA's understanding is this doctrine a false doctrine as well?
Lastly, I am in a traditional SDA church, Where do I go from here? And how can I begin teaching what you have taught me via your website and my own personal study? Do I go do a liberal SDA church where the music is more to my own taste? Drumsm guitars etc... or do I stay where I am. We live South Seattle area. Is there a church that teaches truth anywhere anymore?
I so much appreciate your website and for speaking out to all of us seeking truth.
Thank you Tom
Sincerely,
Kelley
Offline
Tom,
Your answer to my previous question was misleading,if not totally dishonest. You are NOT a member of the Capital church. Furthermore, your statements about the Adventist's are also misleading. You gave "advice" to one individual that it really doesn't matter which day of the week you worship so long as one simply worships. Where do you find THAT in the Bible!
What church
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … urch-3.htm
You also allude to the idea that there isn't one specific church today. Yet my Bible says "one Lord, one faith, one baptism," Eph. 4:5.
And any reading of the Bible makes it clear that Christians are responsible to God for keeping His commandments and having the faith of Jesus. This seems to be something missing in your criticism of the E.G. White estate.
The fact is, people are always attacking Ellen White whenever they can't argue with the idea of commandment keeping. Too bad, because they are essential to eternal life, and there is nothing "old covenant" about that, or haven't you read Genesis.
By basing your entire criticism on the E.G. White estate, you've missed the whole point of Jesus appearance on this planet which, in part, is to enable us to keep His commandments! Leave E.G. White and the estate out of your argument (?) and see what is left.
Jim
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Norris responds:
Jim said: Tom, Your answer to my previous question was misleading, if not totally dishonest. You are NOT a member of the Capital church.
Tom replied: First off, I am disappointed that you think I would try to mislead or deceive anyone. I am trying to promote serious Gospel Reform within the Adventist Community. This cannot be done by deception or double-talk.
Second, my bio is as stated. I was born in Takoma Park to an SDA family. I went to SDA schools, and as far back as I can remember, to the Capital Memorial Church.
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm
In fact, as a small child, I went every Sabbath to CMC. I even remember the old church on 5th and F streets, way downtown. As a boy, I also remember the new church on Chesapeake Street, which was very modern and cutting edge in its day.
http://www.capitalmemorial.org
So I can assure you that I was raised as a vegetarian, Bible believing, SDA, and a long time member at Capital Memorial Church, a place that Richard Fredericks and Jack Sequira were both pastors at one time. I will always have fond memories of the many wonderful people that I met there over the years.
Feel free to call the church and speak to CJ, the Pastor, he knows me and my Mother, who faithfully attends every week. (I no longer attend because I don’t embrace Old Covenant Adventism). When you ask about me, just be sure to mention that you are asking about Mary Cross’ son.
The real question should be this: 1) Did Tom Norris gain entrance into the White Estate, and 2) Did he find a large collection of EGW documents that were being hidden and suppressed?
Regardless where I went to church, the answer is YES and YES.
The Adventist Community needs to wake up and deal with this massive fraud in the White Estate that was uncovered by Tom Norris in 1979. Unless this cancer is cured, the Advent Movement will die. Look around, it’s almost dead now.
Jim charged: Furthermore, your statements about the Adventist's are also misleading.
Tom replied: Again, I am disappointed that you think I have some hidden, evil agenda, or that I am the enemy of the Advent Movement. My Gospel based agenda is to return Adventism back to its eschatological core, which includes a policy of searching for truth, and removing all error and theological double-talk.
If you have any specific complaints about how I am explaining either theology or church history, please speak up and make whatever criticisms you think necessary. This is how the search for truth works. I will try to not only answer, but to give you the sources so you can do further research.
Jim said: You gave "advice" to one individual that it really doesn't matter which day of the week you worship so long as one simply worships. Where do you find THAT in the Bible!
Tom said: I don’t think you understand what I am saying about the Sabbath. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else?
The Reformed 7th day Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228
While there are legions that attack the SDA’s and their view of the 7th day Sabbath, I have concluded that they are correct to claim Sunday is a fraud and that only the 7th day can be the NC Sabbath. So far so good.
Having said this, I must also say that the SDA’s have embraced the WRONG version of the 7th day Sabbath, which needs to be corrected. Jesus does not teach anyone to obey the 4th Commandment as the SDA’s teach. This is a great error.
The church should only embrace the New Covenant Sabbath of Christ, not the Old Covenant Sabbath of Moses. These are two very different 7th day Sabbath doctrines.
Moreover, I am very critical of those that claim the Sabbath is now an Every Day doctrine of spiritual rest. The Sabbath, if there is one for the church, (and there is), can only be on the 7th day. So the SDA’s have found some truth, but they need to find more.
NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836
Jim said: You also allude to the idea that there isn't one specific church today. Yet my Bible says "one Lord, one faith, one baptism," Eph. 4:5.
Tom said: While the SDA’s claim to have all truth for those in Laodicea, this is obviously not true. In fact, Jesus teaches that at the end of time, every church and denomination has misunderstood the Gospel, including the SDA’s.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Today, there are legions of churches that claim to follow Christ. But none of them do. They are all BLIND; full of much error and false doctrine, including and especially about the Sabbath.
None teach a correct doctrine of the NC Sabbath, least of all the Old Covenant minded SDA’s. They teach the Sabbath of Moses, not Christ, for which they must repent or be lost.
At the end of time, the Bible shows a doctrinally correct church proclaiming the Gospel with unity and power. That time is still future. See Rev 18. Adventist Reform is trying to push the SDA’s forward to the 4th and last Advent Message.
Jim said: And any reading of the Bible makes it clear that Christians are responsible to God for keeping His commandments and having the faith of Jesus. This seems to be something missing in your criticism of the E.G. White estate.
Tom replied: Christians are to follow the teachings of Christ, also known as the “law of Christ.” This is not to be confused with the law of OC Moses.
1Cor. 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
Jesus has not rejected the 10 Commandment law. Rather, he is careful to recast the Moral law into Christian teaching. Thus while it was a sin to murder in the OC, Jesus teaches that it is a sin to hate and to think about murder, and so too with adultery.
However, when it comes to the Sabbath, Jesus transforms it into an active, guiltless, working day. He does not teach a resting 7th day Sabbath, much less a Friday preparation day. This is why the Jews sent him to the cross.
At some point, when the Gospel is better understood, so too the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
Jim said: The fact is, people are always attacking Ellen White whenever they can't argue with the idea of commandment keeping.
Tom said: I do not attack Ellen White. She is a wonderful source to understand SDA history and theology. Moreover, she stood up against Uriah Smith in 1888 and repudiated his promotion of obedience to the Moral law as a means of salvation.
Listen to Uriah Smith the legalist:
"The whole object of Christ's work for us is to bring us back to the law, that its righteousness may be fulfilled in us by our obedience, and that when we at last stand beside the law, which is the test of the judgment, we may appear as absolutely in harmony with it, as if we had never belonged to a sinful race who had trampled it in the dust."
"There is a righteousness we must have, in order to see the kingdom of heaven, which is called 'our righteousness'; and this righteousness comes from being in harmony with the law of God."
R & H, Uriah Smith. 1889.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ions-2.htm
Gospel preached by A T Jones
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ched-T.htm
Let everyone understand that the post 1888 Ellen White refuted Uriah Smith! She argued against “commandment keeping.” Which is why she was exiled and why the White Estate suppressed her debate with Smith, misleading generations of SDA’s into legalism.
While it is true that Ellen White was an Old Covenant Christian before 1888, just like Uriah Smith, thinking that all had to obey the law, --she changed her mind after 1888. She became a NC Christian. However the Takoma Park leaders liked the OC Ellen White better, so they hid the NC Ellen White and only promoted the OC, pre-1888 Ellen White.
This stunt has misled and ruined the modern Adventist movement. The fraud in the White Estate must stop and the historic record corrected. This is the only way to understand the real Ellen White and to save the Advent Movement.
Jim said: Too bad, because they (law keeping) are essential to eternal life, and there is nothing "old covenant" about that, or haven't you read Genesis.
Tom said: First off, Genesis is an Old Covenant book. So reading it will hardly explain the New Covenant Gospel.
Second, the NC does not teach that obedience to the law is salvific. Eternal Life is only through faith in Christ, apart from works. Many are confused about all this and I suggest that you seriously study the definition of the Gospel, because you are way off base my friend.
Rom. 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Gal. 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph. 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
See also:
Law and Gospel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1122
In fact, those that try to please God by obedience to the Moral Law are displeasing him. This is what the book of Galatians is all about. You need to study it and learn the Gospel.
Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Gal. 2:21 “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Jim said: By basing your entire criticism on the E.G. White estate, you've missed the whole point of Jesus appearance on this planet which, in part, is to enable us to keep His commandments!
Tom replied: Wow! So you think like Uriah Smith; Jesus came to earth to give men and women the power to obey the Moral law? While this is what the SDA’s taught in Battle Creek, it is very wrong. This is why there was an 1888 debate; the church leaders had become great legalists.
Long before there were SDA’s, there was a group in the early church that also embraced this same type of theology. They were called Judaizers and the Circumcision Party. Even Peter and James joined this error until Paul stood up for the Gospel.
Gal. 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.
Gal. 2:13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.
Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
There is only one Gospel, not many, even as there is only one 7th day, Gospel Sabbath.
Today, no church has a fully correct Gospel or doctrine of the Sabbath, and the SDA’s are one of the worst offenders. They are great legalists that have been fighting the Gospel for generations and it is getting very tiresome and counterproductive.
Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Jim said: Leave E.G. White and the estate out of your argument (?) and see what is left.
Tom said: First, there is no way to fully understand SDA history without using Ellen White, the longest living founder. She was also a prolific writer that kept a diary as well as a large collection of personal letters, etc. No researcher working on Adventist history can ignore Ellen White. Any that do so are not being honest, nor are they looking for the facts.
Second, the White Estate is responsible for promoting a false and manipulated version of Ellen White to the public, for which they are not even sorry. In fact, they refuse to admit any wrongdoing, pretending all is well when everyone knows otherwise. This false version of Ellen White cannot be allowed to stand.
Third, It is important for everyone to understand that the arguments for Adventist Reform are supported by the teaching of Ellen White. She has much to say about the need for Gospel Reform within the SDA church. It is time that her genuine voice is heard instead of the fictionalized, legalistic fraud from the White Estate.
In conclusion, you need to complain less and study the issues more carefully. Many of your assumptions are groundless and wrong, and so too is your legalistic view of the Gospel.
I hope this response was helpful, leading you to further research and study.
Matt. 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Gospel regards,
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism & All Experts.Com
Offline
Kelley said: Tom thanks so much for answering my questions, I so much appreciate it!
Tom replied: You are very welcome. We live in a world where myth and propaganda have long replaced ancient Gospel truth. Thus it is the duty of all that understand the Gospel today, to explain it to those that are searching for truth. Everyone needs to understand that the dysfunctional Advent Movement is not dead, just sleeping. While it is true that the SDA’s are in a great crisis of self-identity, real answers are available that will resolve the issues and re-energize the confused Adventist Community.
Consequently, there are hundreds of Q & A’s about Adventist Reform on the All Experts site. They cover most every possible question about the history and theology of Adventism, including how the Advent Movement must repent for their Old Covenant views and embrace New Covenant Adventism. There are additional, on going, discussions at the ATomorrow site open to all, including the critics, as well as those searching for truth.
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=11
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm
Kelley asked: When you say that SDA's are not following the Sabbath correctly or they are legalistic in their Sabbath Keeping and do not understand the 4th commandment what do you mean? Can you give an example as to how the Sabbath should be kept?
Tom answered: First, no church today has a correct view of the Gospel or the Sabbath. They are all way off base, including the SDA’s, even though they that did find the right day.
Second, the difference between the OC and NC is stunning. Few comprehend this critical theological division correctly, even though it defines the difference between Jew and Christian; Protestant and Catholic.
As for the Sabbath; everyone needs to understand that there is an OC Sabbath and a NC doctrine of the Sabbath. They are not the same, even though they are on both on the 7th day. While the SDA’s assume there is only one weekly Sabbath doctrine in the Bible, there are a number that need to be better understood, especially the Gospel Sabbath as taught by Christ. Whatever Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, is NC doctrine for those that follow him. The OC and NC doctrines of the Sabbath are very different.
Third, while the OC Sabbath focused on rest, making it a great sin and even a crime worthy of death to work on the 7th day; Jesus teaches an active, working Sabbath, not a resting version. The SDA Community has been taught the resting, non-working, OC Sabbath of Moses, which is based on the 4th Commandment. This is great error. This is not the NC Sabbath of Christ, but that of his enemies.
Reformed Sabbath of Christ
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … 211#p12211
Let everyone understand; Jesus is not Moses, nor is the OC the same as the NC. Jesus does not, not, not, teach a resting, inactive doctrine of the 7th day.
Jesus does not promote or practice obedience to the 4th Commandment as the SDA’s claim. Jesus was not a pretend Sabbath breaker, but a real one. This is why the Jews were angry with him.
Contrary to what the SDA’s teach, all that follow Christ can work on the 7th day and not be guilty of sin. Thus, the 4th Commandment does not apply in the NC; Jewish Sabbath keeping is an OC doctrine of Moses and of the Circumcision Party. And so too the Friday preparation day. It is also gone because it is no longer a sin to prepare food or do any kind of work on the NC, 7th day Sabbath.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
The OC Tutor Sabbath
Thanks to Christ, we are no longer under the Moral or Ceremonial Law of the Old Covenant. The “tutor” Sabbath of the 4th Commandment is gone! No one in the New Covenant is “under” the Moral law, much less the 4th Commandment. On this point the SDA’s are dead wrong.
However, this does not mean there is no doctrine of the Sabbath in the NC. There is. Christians must follow the 7th day Sabbath doctrine of Christ, the head of the church and the self-proclaimed Lord of the Gospel Sabbath.
Those today that think Sunday is correct doctrine, or that it is sinful to work or play on the 7th day (or Sunday) are following a false Christ and a fatally flawed Gospel Story. They are blind to the genuine teachings of Jesus, which they repudiate. They are just like the blind and deaf Jews.
The SDA’s incorrectly think the 4th Commandment is binding on the church. It is not. Jesus never taught any such doctrine, and neither did the apostles. Whatever Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath is binding, nothing else. And he has a lot to say about it in the Gospels.
SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836
While the 7th day is the proper day for Christians to meet in the name of Christ to worship God, (they can do this on any day as well), there are no restrictions about working on that day, or doing anything.
So one can go to church in the morning and paint their house in the afternoon or play ball, or whatever, and not be guilty of sinning. They can also eat at a restaurant, or work at a restaurant, on the 7th day without sin. Not because there is no Sabbath doctrine, but because the NC Sabbath of Christ allows for any kind of good works on the 7th day.
Let all in the SDA Community understand: Jesus does not, not, not, teach a resting, non-working doctrine of the Sabbath. This is a very surprising fact for SDA’s (and the entire Sunday keeping Laodicean Church to comprehend). Why? Because they have all misunderstood Christ, hearing only what their wretched ears wanted to hear. The true 7th day Gospel Sabbath, (there is no Sunday Sabbath to discuss) has been hidden from the church for many centuries, even though it is in plain site in the Gospels. But at the end of time, as our knowledge and understanding of the Gospel increases, so too our understanding about the 7th day Sabbath. That time has arrived.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Luke 8:17 “For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light.
Luke 8:18 “So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.”
The true doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath will condemn every church and denomination, especially the SDA’s, who claimed they had all possible truth on this topic. While they were correct to push the 7th day, they were very wrong to confuse the Sabbath of Moses with the Sabbath of Christ. This is a fatal error that is destroying the Advent Movement.
When Jesus teaches a Sabbath for “mankind,” he is not referring to the 4th Commandment of Moses, which was NOT for all mankind. (The OC law was only given to the Jews, and then not even for all of them! The Levites did break the Sabbath law without guilt. Thus the priests were not under the 4th Commandment, and neither is anyone in the NC.)
Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Jesus is the creator of the world and the original Sabbath for all mankind; he is also the head of the church and Lord and protector of the NC Sabbath. He did not obey or promote the resting Sabbath of Moses, but rather his own unique doctrine of the 7th day. This is why the Jews became so infuriated with Jesus. Let everyone in Laodicea, and especially the SDA’s, repent and search the Gospels to find the genuine 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ. Only a blind person could miss this doctrine.
Kelley said: Is the SDA church the remnant church? And are Sunday keepers the fallen churches?
Tom replied: Every church today is “fallen.” None teach a fully correct Gospel or doctrine of the Sabbath. For SDA’s, this term Remnant implied that they were smarter than all other denominations, having more truth, especially about the Sabbath. Today we know this arrogant viewpoint is absurdly wrong. The SDA’s are full of confusion, debate, and much error. What they claim is truth is mostly error, double-talk, and diversion. They don’t even have the doctrine of the Lord’s Supper correct, much less the Sabbath or eschatology.
Today, ALL churches and denominations are “fallen;” blind to the Gospel, following a false Christ and a false doctrine of the Sabbath, which they proudly wear as a token of their naked state. Jesus teaches that all denominations at the end of time are blind and naked in the real Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church. The SDA’s are not excluded from this harsh, correct, judgment of Christ.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
The goal of every church and denomination today, must be to wake up, repent, and pay attention to what Jesus, the head of the church teaches. Which of course includes what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath, as well as how the world will end. If the SDA’s want to be part of the final Gospel proclamation in Rev 18, they must repent and embrace Gospel Reform with both hands, which includes the active and working NC 7th day Sabbath of Christ. They must remove all false doctrine, including their many errors about Ellen White and Sunday laws, tithe, and the IJ, just to name a few. Jesus does not support such false views.
While the SDA’s viewed themselves as the last and best church, full of all Gospel truth to instruct others, and thus giving the final message of warning to a doomed world (Rev 18), they are way off base. At this point, they are blind to the teachings of Christ about the Sabbath and most everything else. They are not saved, so how can they save others? The Advent Movement was not started by the SDA’s and it looks like it will not end with them either. No matter. The Advent Movement will go forward to the next level, which is the 4th Angels Message in spite of, and because of, the self-destruction of the 3rd Angels Message. The collapse of Traditional Adventism paves the way for the 4th Angels Message. This is how Adventist Eschatology functions.
Kelley asked: When Jesus said "If you love me keep my commandments" SDA say that obedience to the law is what we must do. But, I hear you say something different.
Tom said: Those that live under the Old Covenant, like the SDA’s, read the NT as if it were the OC. But it is not. Jesus is not Moses.
Ex. 15:26 And He said, “If you will give earnest heed to the voice of the LORD your God, and do what is right in His sight, and give ear to His commandments, and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have put on the Egyptians; for I, the LORD, am your healer.”
Ex. 16:28 Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions?
Lev. 22:31 “So you shall keep My commandments, and do them; I am the LORD.
The OC term for “commandments” does not mean the same in the NC. When Jesus teaches that we are to follow his commandments, he means his NC teaching that are recorded in the Gospels, not what Moses teaches, who stands for the OC.
Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”
John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
John 14:1 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
John 14:14 “If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
John 15:10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
John 15:11 “These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
John 15:12 “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
John 15:13 “Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:14 “You are My friends if you do what I command you.
John 15:17 “This I command you, that you love one another.
The NT makes it clear that Jesus’ NC teachings are God’s “commandments.” We are not to conflate the OC Law of God which refers to Moses and Judaism, with the NC term that refers to Christ and his Gospel instruction.
1Th. 4:1 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more.
1Th. 4:2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.
2Pet. 3:1 This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,
2Pet. 3:2 that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.
1Cor. 14:37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment.
1John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1John 2:4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1John 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
1John 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
1John 4:21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
2John 4 I was very glad to find some of your children walking in truth, just as we have received commandment to do from the Father.
2John 5 Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2John 6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.
1John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
1John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
2John 6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.
The SDA’s think the term “Commandments” means 10 Commandments in both the OC and the NC. Thus they think they are still under the Law of Moses in the NC. But this is wrong. It is the teachings of Christ that is the law of Christ and the law of God in the NC.
1Cor. 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
While God commanded the Jews to listen to Moses and follow the OC Law, he has since commanded all to listen to the NC words of his Son. Moses and the OC Law are no longer the basis for religion.
Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Luke 21:33 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
What Jesus teaches, is the “Commandments of God."
John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
Heb. 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;
Heb. 3:2 He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house.
Heb. 3:3 For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house.
Heb. 3:4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.
Heb. 3:5 Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later;
Heb. 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house — whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Rom. 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;
1Cor. 14:37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment.
1Tim. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope,
2John 6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.
Jesus did not teach OC Judaism in the Gospels, much less instruct his disciples to follow the 4th Commandment or to look to the Moral law for righteousness. He taught the NC Gospel, - not the OC law. His words eclipse Moses, even as faith in Christ trumps obedience to OC law. The SDA’s have made fools of themselves to teach that the church is under the 10 Commandment Law of Moses. The NT does not teach such legalism. For the most part, the term “commandments” in the NT means the Gospel teachings of Christ. NOT the Law of Moses.
Rev. 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Rev. 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”
John 15:10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
In the NT, God’s “commandments” mean the Gospel instruction of Christ. They do not mean the 10 C’s.
Kelley asked: What does "if you love me, keep my commandments" mean then? What did Jesus mean when he said that?
Tom said: There is a Law of Moses and a law of Christ. We know what Moses teaches. But what about the law of Christ? What would be the first commandments of the law of Christ?
Answer: Eternal Life by faith in Christ.
John 6:27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
Note: Jesus teaches Eternal Life is a gift. It is not given as a reward for law keeping, but for believing in his Gospel words. To “not obey” Christ is to not believe in his teachings, including what he teaches about Eternal Life being a free gift. Which is the most important of all doctrines because it represents our salvation.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
John 6:54 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
It is time for the Advent Community to repent for their many false doctrines, including their great error about the Sabbath, and only embrace the genuine Gospel of Christ. They must return to a Protestant focus about Eternal Life by Faith and not law keeping. They must return to an emphasis on the 2nd Coming, which is when Eternal Life will become a reality for those of true faith.
The second law of Christ would be to Love God and one another.
John 15:12 “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
Another teaching would be the Sabbath as defined by Christ.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
In numerous passages, Jesus teaches it is on longer a sin to work, play, or travel on the 7th day. Those that think it is a day for rest are NOT keeping the commandments and teachings of Christ. Anyone that feels guilty for working on the 7th day, is not embracing the law of Christ, nor understanding how the Gospel functions. They are trying to follow Moses and Christ in some type of fictional religion that does not exist. Whatever Jesus teaches about anything, God, man, salvation, money, prayer, the Sabbath, etc, this is the law of Christ and the commandments of God.
Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Kelley said: You have not talked on the millennium? I have been taught it was to be in heaven for 1000 yrs. That's my understanding and all of SDA's understanding is this doctrine a false doctrine as well?
Tom said: When it comes to eschatology, for which the Advent Movement is famous, the SDA’s have lost their way. This idea about Sunday laws starting the end of the world is utter nonsense, unsupported by the Bible. It is based on the false assumption that the 4th Commandment is binding on the church, when Jesus teaches otherwise. Thus it is an anti-Christ teaching that must be repudiated. Unless the SDA’s can better understand how the world will end, and how one can obtain Eternal Life through the Gospel, they have no business trying to teach what will happen after the 2nd Coming. How can it matter? Salvation is not for those that misunderstand the Gospel and the details about how the world will end.
The Adventists are going to have to update their outdated eschatology. The world is not going to end as the 19th century SDA Pioneers assumed. Their Sabbath based legalism, combined with a fear of the Catholics, has driven them into the rocks of false doctrine and theological confusion. They have lost their way for all to see. It is time for a Gospel based view of modern eschatology. And like the Sabbath doctrine, what Jesus teaches about the end of the world is what the church must teach. He does not teach anything about Sunday laws as the SDA’s claim.
Kelley said: Lastly, I am in a traditional SDA church, Where do I go from here? And how can I begin teaching what you have taught me via your website and my own personal study?
Tom said: All that follow Jesus for Eternal Life should do so without regard to those that teach error and diversion. All should read the NT for themselves, becoming experts at understanding the Gospel instruction of Christ, directly from Christ and his apostles. This is how to learn from Christ, from the Word. The SDA’s are experts at distorting and repudiating what Jesus teaches. They have become such great OC legalists that they actually think tithing is a NC doctrine and so too the Sabbath of Moses. Anyone that practices tithing or the OC Sabbath, are not following Christ. They are blind to the Gospel.
In the beginning of the Early Church, those Jews (SDA’s) that wanted to follow Christ had to do so in private. Why? Because the synagogue would not tolerate any Gospel preaching or discussion. There was no freedom of speech allowed about the Gospel. The religious leaders had full control of the people, much like today. Thus the house church was born out of necessity. The same goes for today. No SDA is allowed to correct false doctrine in the church, much less tell the truth about the Gospel or promote Adventist Reform. Look at what happened to Dr. Ford? The evil and corrupt hierarchy will not allow doe open discussion about the Gospel any more than did the 1st century Jews that hated the Gospel. The SDA’s are very much like the Jews on this point and many others.
This persecution of the Gospel is why the SDA community must emulate the first church and 1) repudiate their religious hierarchy and 2)become organized on a different, more Gospel friendly level. After all, Jesus teaches that true Gospel worship is not about the building or following the corrupt leaders. The church is defined as people that believe in the Gospel.
John 4:20 “Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.”
John 4:21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
John 4:22 “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
John 4:23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
John 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
More than that, Jesus teaches that a hierarchy is forbidden in the church; much less one that has a separate priesthood called pastors that is supported by tithe. But yet, this is what the SDA’s have developed, which explains why the Adventists are so corrupt and OC minded. No Christian should ever pay tithe to anyone for any reason or pretend that they owe tithe to God. Such doctrine is against the Gospel.
Mark 10:42 Calling them to Himself, Jesus said to them, “You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them.
Mark 10:43 “But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant;
Mark 10:44 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all.
Mark 10:45 “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
Where do you go? What About Tithe?
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … 0/x-12.htm
Communion at Home?
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … n-Home.htm
Kelly asked: Do I go do a liberal SDA church where the music is more to my own taste? Drums, guitars etc... or do I stay where I am.
Tom answered: You should go where Christ’s teachings are uplifted, taught, and worshipped. Not where the OC law is lifted up and practiced. Traditional SDA services are against the Gospel, and so too their relentless practice of tithing that proves they are living under the OC. In fact, the SDA’s don’t even know how to practice communion properly. They are so very confused about the Gospel.
Kelly said: We live South Seattle area. Is there a church that teaches truth anywhere anymore?
Tom said: When the Gospel is better understood, so too the Sabbath of Christ. At this point, there is no denomination or church that fully understands the Gospel or the NC doctrine of the Sabbath. This is a tragedy, but one that has been long predicted by Christ. So we should not be shocked.
http://www.goodnewsunlimited.com/global-community/find/
At some point this will change. But not if people refuse to speak up for Christ and condemn those that teach error. The Adventist Community has been horribly misled and abused by their incompetent leaders and it is time for this corruption to stop. It is time for the Adventist Community to demand Reform and then implement it, defying their leaders. This is how the early church formed and this is how the last church will end.
Kelley said: I so much appreciate your website and for speaking out to all of us seeking truth. Thank you Tom
Tom said: Thanks to the Internet, it is impossible to censor or silence those that that demand Gospel Reform within the Adventist Community. While the corrupt SDA leaders have been pursuing a brutal policy of censorship, diversion, and propaganda for decades, it no longer works because of the freedom of speech allowed on the Internet. Thus, MILLIONS have had their eyes opened and many more still leave every day because they see that the SDA’s no longer care about Gospel truth. Sad.
Leaving The SDA Church
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=233
Old Covenant Adventism has failed for all to see. The double-talking SDA’s are unable to tell the truth about church history even as they are blind to the Gospel. As a result, they are self-destructing in arrogance, denial, and schism. This is the end of the 3rd Angels Message, which has terminated. It is time for New Covenant Adventism. For what the Pioneers called the 4th Angels Message. This final Advent message is Gospel based, not law based. It will feature the teaching of Christ about the Sabbath, Salvation, and how the world will end. This last message will promote truth, not error.
It is time for Adventist Reform…
2Pet. 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
2Pet. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
2Pet. 3:11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
2Pet. 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
2Pet. 3:13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
Gospel regards,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Offline
The Fall of the Laodicean Church
It is a mistake to think that 19th century SDA theology is without serious error and does not need reform in the 21st century. Do the divided Adventists teach Gospel truth? Without error? The answer is no and no.
While SDA’s have been taught to believe that they have cornered the market on theological truth, especially about the Sabbath and how the world will end, they are delusional, cultic, and very wrong about many things. While they have made some good contributions to theology and health, which should be pushed forward, they also hold much myth and error, which is why they are divided and self-destructing in great theological confusion.
Today, it is not easy for any denomination to just “read the Bible” and follow it. In fact, it has been very difficult for anyone, much less any religious organization, to read the Bible and find Gospel truth. If that were not the case, the Gospel Story would read very differently. The Jews would have embraced Christ and the early church would not have become so legalistic and divided. Nor would every wind of doctrine be blowing through the church today.
In the early 21st century, it is clear that the Christian Faith, as well as the Advent Movement, is in a serious credibility crisis. If ever there was a need for another Protestant Reformation, it is now. Although the SDA’s viewed themselves as being the last Reformers, they have become part of the problem rather than the solution.
The SDA’s have made many mistakes; the most egregious in the 19th century was to repudiate the Gospel in 1888,for which they were destroyed in Battle Creek. In the 20th century, at Glacier View in 1980, they doubled down on their 1888 errors by also insisting that the IJ is the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message, when this was never the case. These twin errors, a false view of the Gospel, and a false view of the Three Angels Messages, has ruined the Advent Movement. It is dying right in front of our eyes. Sad.
Here is the problem for the SDA’s: They love of the Old Covenant Sabbath, and thus the Law of Moses has been their theological ruin. While many professed Christians and denominations have often confused Moses for Christ, even as legions have no idea how to explain or define the Gospel correctly, the SDA’s are most like the 1st century Jews and the Circumcision Party that developed in the early church. This is why they promote tithing and OC Sabbath keeping and Jewish food laws. The SDA’s DO NOT understand the New Covenant, even as they also misunderstand their own history and doctrinal development.
John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
The book of Revelation shows that the last church, Laodicea, which is made up of all denominations, is the worst of all 7 church periods.
Jesus makes it clear in Rev 3: 14, which is the real Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church, that all in Laodicea have fallen away from Gospel Truth. All denominations have embraced very wrong doctrines, including a false Christ and an impossible view of the New Covenant Sabbath, which must be corrected.
The “wretched” Laodiceans are acting very much like the 1st century Jews. They are not reading the Bible Story correctly, much less understanding or embracing the Gospel teachings of Christ. To make matters worse, every church and denomination, including the SDA’s, think they are rich in doctrine and full of truth, when they have almost nothing correct or true.
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Paul also speaks about how bad things will become at the end of time.
2Tim. 3:1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2Tim. 3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Tim. 3:3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
2Tim. 3:4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2Tim. 3:5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.
So yes, we Laodiceans are living in a time when prophecy is being fulfilled. The last church, which includes the SDA’s, has gone blind. THIS is a sign of the end. Which is why Jesus demands corporate and individual repentance from the church before the 2nd Coming.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
SDA’s Condemned in PAJ
Christ has harshly judged the SDA Denomination in the genuine PAJ of the last church. Christ calls the SDA’s wretched and very wrong about Gospel doctrine, and so they are. Thus they are called to repent, - not promote a worthless version of the PAJ and pretend that they have not been promoting a false version of the 3 A’s all these years. The SDA’s need to come clean and repent for their many false doctrines, including how they view Ellen White. This is what the real PAJ teaches.
Today, millions are fleeing the SDA church because it has so many false, anti-Gospel doctrines, including tithe, upon which the corrupt organizational structure depends. What is being promoted is confusing, contradictory, and false on many levels; not lining up with the founders of Adventism, much less with Jesus and the apostles. Unless the Advent Movement repents for promoting so much error, and returns to the original theology of the 3 Angels Messages, they are doomed, doomed, doomed.
Adventism today is in a very dark, delusional, and dangerous place. Ellen White predicted this. I repeat: Their only option is to repent and return to the original eschatology of the Three Angels Messages, which does not contain the IJ in the 1st Angels Message.
Then they must move forward to remove their many errors and myths and develop the 4th and last Advent Message, which is Gospel based, not Old Covenant based. This is their only hope. This is the point of the Three Angels Messages, to move forward to the 4th Angels Message.
However, there can be no 4th Angels Message if the SDA’s can’t understand the original formula for the Three Angels Messages. Thus it is imperative for the Adventist Community to understand where they have gone wrong so they can make the necessary corrections. (The SDA’s went wrong in 1888, and again in 1980, at Glacier View.)
Let every Adventist understand: the 1844 “Judgment” of the 1st Angels Message was, and still is, ONLY about the 2nd Coming as the Day of Judgment and the end of the world. The IJ was never part of the 1st Angels Message, (which is fulfilled prophetic prophecy), much less the reason why the Advent Movement existed. Such modern views are for those that refuse to honestly embrace the simple facts of religious history.
It is time for everyone in the Adventist Community, including the IJ zealots, to face the facts/ truth and stop defending Takoma Park traditions that were never true, and never endorsed by Ellen White, much less by Jesus and the apostles.
The modern Advent Movement has been sidetracked, misdirected, and ruined by the IJ, and the lack of historical and theological honesty. Myths have long ago replaced the facts of history, even as Ellen White’s writings have been hidden and manipulated by the leaders in order to deceive the Adventist Community into following a very false path. Mission accomplished. Look around. The Advent Movement is a train wreck; a corrupt disgrace for all to see.
Hidden Documents
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … uments.htm
It is time for the Adventist Community to wake up and repent for allowing their incompetent leaders to confuse and misdirect them into false paths. The Denomination has obviously lost its’ way. They need to repent about 1888, the IJ, and many other things, and return to the correct prophetic path, which is the Three Angels Messages.
Ellen White Predicts SDA’s Laid Low Before They Repent
According to Ellen White: “The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place.” 2SM 380, 1886.
The good news however is that Ellen White also predicts a time when the SDA’s will wake up and understand that the Laodicean Message is meant for them. Then they will repent of the IJ and many other errors and move forward to the final level of Adventism, which is the 4th Angels Message.
Why did Ellen White predict that the LM would become so important to SDA’s? Because the LM is the genuine Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church. This realization will allow for the repudiation of Dan 8:14 as the PAJ, as well as for dramatic Gospel Reform, which leads to the last, Advent message. The Fourth.
Revelation shows the last church, united, and correctly proclaiming the Gospel as they prepare for the 2nd Coming and the end of the world. This happens in SDA eschatology under the 4th Angels Message, not the 3rd.
Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.
Listen to Ellen White:
I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen. I was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the true Witness to the Laodiceans. It will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver of the testimony, and it will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. This straight testimony some will not bear. They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people.
I saw that the testimony of the true Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony, upon which the destiny of the church hangs, has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance, and all that truly receive it, will obey it, and be purified…
Some had been shaken out, and left by the way. The careless and indifferent who did not join with those who prized victory and salvation enough to agonize, persevere, and plead for it, did not obtain it, and they were left behind in darkness, and their numbers were immediately made up by others taking hold of the truth, and coming into the ranks.
The Great Controversy, by Ellen G. White, [1858]
Shake, Shake, Shake
It is time for the Advent Movement to return to the Protestant Gospel, as well as to the original view of the Three A’s. (The one without the IJ in the 1st Angels Message.) Thus it is the official repudiation of Traditional, Takoma Park Adventism and Glacier View that will cause the great shaking within the Denomination.
The shaking that has taken place in North America is only a foretaste of what is ahead when the SDA’s start telling the truth. Thus, the great shaking has yet to take place. But it seems inevitable, especially after the world church voted that women pastors couldn’t be ordained in America. Such a vote is a repudiation of the New Covenant by those legalistic SDA’s that have been taught the Old Covenant. The Denomination exported to the world, the dark, legalistic side of Adventism, and now they are reaping the sad result.
Gal. 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
In the 21st century, those New Covenant minded SDA’s that are true to the Gospel, will return to the original eschatology of the 3 A’s. They will remove the IJ and correct a host of other false doctrines and errors. With the genuine theology of Adventism re-established, and the truth finally told about 1888, the Advent Movement will understand how to move forward to develop and proclaim the 4th Angels Message, which includes the New Covenant doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. This is still future.
Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.
Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt. 24:22 “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Luke 21:25 “There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
Luke 21:26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Luke 21:27 “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
Luke 21:28 “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
1Th. 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th. 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform and All Experts.Com
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Advocating Adventism: A Manifesto:
by John McLarty
John said: I am an Adventist advocate.
When I say I am an Adventist, I mean my family history and Adventist church history have been intertwined for generations. I'm also referencing my membership in this congregation, my education in Adventist schools, my employment as a pastor, and the habits of my life. All of this makes me Adventist, but it is not enough to make me an advocate. Being an advocate comes from my conviction that being Adventist is good for you. It is a superlative way of being human. It is this conviction—that you are better off being Adventist—that makes me an advocate, a promoter, a sales person, an evangelist. I think we have something so good everyone (or at least nearly everyone) would benefit from joining with us.
Many of the treasures of Adventism are shared treasures: God, the Bible, the Gospel, the Ten Commandments, baptism, the Lord's Prayer, the Golden Rule. These are common across Christianity. Our promotion of healthy habits and our critiques of meat, tobacco, and alcohol are shared with many non-Christians. Our extensive network of health care and educational institutions and our integrated global organization is reminiscent of the Catholic Church. Our prohibition of pork echoes the same prohibition in Judaism and Islam. Our Sabbath-keeping is a direct descendant of Jewish belief and practice.
So why be Adventist?
Sabbath-keeping is one reason. Being Adventist helps you keep Sabbath. And keeping Sabbath is a really valuable thing. There is a growing chorus of voices inside and outside Christianity lamenting the loss of Sabbath rhythm from our lives. Productivity, creativity, mastery are essential for the richest human life. But when they become unregulated drives, they become a cancer, displacing other human values like family, friendship, worship, play, wonder, compassion.
We have experienced the benefits of Sabbath-keeping in my own family. I'm a preacher. So, obviously, my professional duties interfere with the full Sabbath experience. Sabbath is my busiest, most intense day. Still, Sabbath practices—specifically the Friday night parties—comprise part of the glue that sticks our family together. Until the kids scattered, every Friday night we had haystacks or strawberry shortcake. We made music. We kept company together at the table set with our best dinnerware. Sometimes friends and neighbors joined us. We did this as part of our religion. It was not optional. It wasn't merely “a good idea.” Our Sabbath practices were central to our identity as an Adventist family.
Sabbath-keeping is nearly impossible to maintain apart from participation in a Sabbath-keeping community. Individuals or isolated families seldom manage to sustain a rich Sabbath-keeping experience. If you want the benefits of Sabbath-keeping, you will probably have to pay the cost of participating in a Sabbath-advocating church. And most Sabbath-keeping churches are Adventist.
Given the intensity and ubiquity of demands for 24/7 production and drive, Sabbath stands as a counter reality, a sweet, steady tradition that nourishes family, soul, and body. Our communal Sabbath-keeping provides access to the blessings of Sabbath even to those who lack the ordinary faith of Adventists. Our While those without faith don't enter as deeply into Sabbath rest as people with a sweet, devout faith, nevertheless, their participation in our community gives them a taste of Sabbath blessing. Even an atheist can keep Sabbath with us, and through that Sabbath-keeping experience soul-rest and a bit of the transcendent. Surely, even a mere taste of the transcendent is better than nothing at all. So be Adventist to sustain your own enjoyment of Sabbath and to join in stewarding this spiritual treasure for others.
A second treasure: Adventist theology provides resources for happily, confidently affirming the goodness of God. In contrast to much dark theology that pictures humans as repugnant to God, who condescends to pardon and save us in spite of our fundamental reality, Adventism highlights the Creation story. God delights in his human children (and the rest of creation as well). God's saving response to human failure and sin is exactly what one would expect of the divine creator parent. The human predicament is God's predicament. God is radically committed to human well-being just as any good parent would be. The crucifixion means at least this much: God would rather die than live without us.
God is loving. God is also lawful. God is bound by the constraints of morality. It is inconceivable that God would do evil or condone evil. If God appears to command or condone evil, humans are right to resist the divine word. Adventists have followed the Enlightenment rejection of divine right monarchy. The whim of the king is subordinate to the fundamental principles of law. This view of God has obvious implications for how we regard human authorities. When America was wrestling with the question of slavery, Adventists joined the abolitionists in rejecting centuries of Bible interpretation in favor of slavery. Slavery was immoral no matter what Abraham did or what customs were spelled out in the Levitical code. It was not possible for God to be on the side of slavery because God could not be a party to immorality. Period. This understanding of the divine character continues to serve as a guide for interpreting the Bible. It has obvious implications for responding to contemporary issues as well.
Adventists reject eternal torture in hell. Why? Because a moral, loving God could not do such a thing. Classic Christian theology was strongly influenced by elements of Greek philosophy. It was this philosophical background that allowed Christian theologians to say with a straight face that God created many humans for the express purpose of burning them in eternal hell fire. Christian theology rightly insists that God is loving and righteous. Adventism teaches that the words “loving” and “righteous” tell us something important about God. It is not possible for God (or anyone else) to be both righteous and a torture-master. Righteous authority cannot act in unrighteous ways. A government—heavenly or earthly—that practices torture loses its moral authority. If eternal torment were true, God would be an evil monster. We would not worship such a deity. So Adventists deny the notion of eternal hell fire. It is not possible. (Some of us—heretics—take this further. We deny hell fire all together.)
God is love. Among Adventists this is not one assertion among many. It is the supreme affirmation about God, an affirmation which serves as an interpretive filter or at least as a counter-balancing truth for all other theological assertions and interpretations of the Bible. The Adventist commitment to this truth is almost reason enough to claim your place among us.
Adventists are creationists. For many Adventists “creationism” has referred to the belief that all rock formations containing fossils were created 4000 years ago in Noah's Flood. However, for some of us “creationism” refers to the theological conviction that humans (and all of nature) are the creation of God. This means the “image of God” is found in the reality of humanity. God is expressed in both men and women. God is not exclusively or even preeminently male. The essential connection between God and humanity undergirds all the divine commands. Adventists understand the Bible's laws as descriptions of the character of God. Because humans are formed in the divine image, laws are also descriptions of the ideal human character. Laws which are good and necessary for humans also set limits on conceivable activity by God.
All the enduring commandments in the Bible are understood to be applications and developments of the character of God. Obviously life works better when people honor their parents, refrain from stealing, killing, cheating, lying. Adventist rules go beyond what is explicitly stated in the Bible. We discourage the use of tobacco, alcohol and other drugs—because life works better than way. We advocate a plant-based diet. We talk about exercise and sleep, about healthy habits for parenting and marriage. We are working to create a culture of forgiveness and grace. And a culture of disciplined, structured living. We are working to create this kind of culture because life works better this way. People are happier and healthier.
Creationism also means (at least for some of us) a high regard for nature. We promote direct engagement with nature through time spent in the out-of-doors (think Sabbath afternoon hikes and camping trips) and through science. We regard science as the structured scholarship of God's “Second Book.” We seek to pass on to our children a love of the world and a commitment to act as wise stewards of nature.
We are Jesus people. We open our hearts to the challenging words of Jesus that call us beyond revenge and retribution. We believe that through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, God has changed the world and painted the definitive vision of God's intentions for the future. In our worship and theology we celebrate the goodness of God. In our church culture we seek to support one another in the cultivation of patterns of living that nourish our relationships, our bodies, and our souls.
Our ambition, our aspiration is to be a people shaped by the life and words of Jesus, a community that interprets the Bible through the lens of an exalted vision of a loving God, a community that seeks to live out here in the real world the implications of that vision.
This is why I am an Adventist advocate. That is why I invite everyone to join us in this glorious quest.
(Note: If you know Adventism well, you will realize the “Adventism” I am promoting is a developmental Adventism. I am not advocating a fossil Adventism—an exact replica of the religino of the early Adventists. I do not imagine the Adventism of our ancestors is better than the Adventism of their children. Perhaps we should call this Adventism Five Point O. Or Third Adventism. Or Seattle Adventism. Whatever we call it, to me it's obvious that the seed of a religion is not better than its fruit. And it is this mature fruit of our faith that I advocate.)
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John,
I think you need to re-think your "manifesto."
First, the Advent Movement was never based on Sabbath keeping, which is your stated reason for being an Adventist. Rather, it was focused on eschatology and the end of the world. THIS is what Adventism is all about; eschatology and how the world will end. Not how to follow Moses and obey the 4th Commandment.
While the 19th century SDA's were correct to condemn Sunday, their legalistic, Old Covenant views about Sabbath keeping have fallen flat for all to see. They do not have the correct, New Covenant doctrine of the Sabbath and there is no sense to pretend otherwise. With such a great error, it is no wonder their Sabbath based eschatology is worthless and wrong.
The Advent Movement in the 21st century needs to go forward and correct their many errors about the Sabbath and eschatology, and other things. Thus the only worthwhile "manifesto" is one that promotes repentance and serious, New Covenant Adventist Reform.
John said: (Note: If you know Adventism well, you will realize the “Adventism” I am promoting is a developmental Adventism. I am not advocating a fossil Adventism—an exact replica of the religion of the early Adventists. I do not imagine the Adventism of our ancestors is better than the Adventism of their children. Perhaps we should call this Adventism Five Point O. Or Third Adventism. Or Seattle Adventism. Whatever we call it, to me it's obvious that the seed of a religion is not better than its fruit. And it is this mature fruit of our faith that I advocate.)
Tom said: There is no reason to forget that Adventism developed through a number of stages called the Three Angels Messages. Moreover, it was supposed to reach a 4th and final version, prior to the 2nd Coming and the end of the world. Adventst eschatology makes it clear that the 2nd Coming would NOT take place under the 3rd Angels Message. Only under the 4th Angels Message, which is virtually unknow to the Adventist Community.
The first Angels Message can be called version 1. Then the 2nd Angels Message became version 2. The 3rd Angels Message was version 3.
However, this version collapsed in Battle Creek, as Ellen White failed to lead the church forward to the 4th Angels Message during the 1888 period.
After the Battle Creek Empire crashed and burned, the THIRD version was revived, tweaked, and promoted in Takoma Park. Which led to another great schism in 1980.
Although the 20th century SDA’s had the opportunity to go forward to understand and embrace the 4th Angels Message, the leaders exiled Dr. Ford and prohibited both free speech and Gospel Reform. As a result, Adventism 3.0, which is no longer credible, is dying for all to see. It cannot be revived, although some foolish leaders think otherwise.
Today, the church leaders have no plans to admit that the 3rd Angels Message has crashed and burned, much less that we should look for the next, predicted version. Thus they offer no real solution and neither does your “manifesto.”
Let everyone understand: Adventist eschatology is correctly based on a number of improved and corrected versions, and best and most credible is yet to come!
The ONLY solution for SDA’s today is to move forward to understand and embraced the FOURTH VERSION of Adventism. This must be the foundation for any serious “manifesto” to save Adventism.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=11
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm
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Tom, I agree with you that Adventism began in eschatology.
I think it is time to move on from there.
I have little interest in "New Covenant" theology, at least as I have heard it expounded.
The character of God and wisdom for daily living are far more interesting for me.
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John said: Tom, I agree with you that Adventism began in eschatology. I think it is time to move on from there.
Tom said: Wow! How does any Christian ignore the 2nd Coming and “move on? To what? Reincarnation? Or perhaps you have found a way not to die? If so, please share your secret of Eternal Life with the rest of us mortal fools.
John said: I have little interest in "New Covenant" theology, at least as I have heard it expounded.
Tom said: It is clear that you have little interest in Gospel theology, much less eschatology and how the world will end. How sad that SDA’s no longer care about such things. No wonder they are self-destructing? They have lost their bearings and thus have no reason to exist.
John said: The character of God and wisdom for daily living are far more interesting for me.
Tom said: The character of God has been perfectly expressed to mankind in the person and teaching of Christ, which includes the doctrine of the 2nd Coming. But yet, you feel comfortable to ignore much of what Jesus teaches in order to embrace your own selective and trite form of religion. How very strange, and pointless.
All should understand that Eternal Life is not given to those that ignore the Gospel teachings of Christ and make up their own religion. Moreover, to lose “interest” in the teachings of Christ, ignoring Gospel eschatology, is to deny the Gospel and forfeit Eternal Life.
While you claim your “manifesto” represents a “glorious quest” that advocates for Adventism, in fact, it denies Adventism, as well as the Gospel. It is worthless nonsense and double-talk that does not even come close to grasping the issues or solving the many problems that are destroying the Advent Movement.
For Adventism to survive, it needs serious Gospel Reform. Not more double-talk about following Jesus, even as his teaching about the 2nd Coming are ignored and marginalized. To deny the 2nd Coming is to deny Christ, not follow him as you pretend.
Although your “manifesto” talks about being “shaped by the life and words of Jesus,” it is clear that you are prepared to ignore whatever you don’t like, such as eschatology. Moreover, while you speak highly of Sabbath keeping, the fact of the matter is that no one is following Jesus’ doctrine of the Sabbath. Not the Sunday keepers or the SDA’s.
In conclusion, the Advent Movement needs to repent for its many false doctrines and embrace Gospel Reform. The time has come, not to deny eschatology, which is the foundation of Adventism, but to focus on updating and better understanding 21st century Gospel eschatology.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Adventist Corporate Identity Will Receive First Makeover in Twenty Years
SILVER SPRING - The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists has announced the first change to the denomination’s corporate identity in over two decades. General Conference Communications Director Williams Costa, Jr. circulated an image of proposed changes to the Seventh-day Adventist logo graphic at the 2016 Spring Meeting of the GC Executive Committee.
Costa said changes to the logo, characterized as being relatively small, will be voted during the General Conference’s 2016 Annual Council this October.
The current Seventh-day Adventist corporate identity, a registered trademark of the General Conference Corporation of Seventh-day Adventists®, was officially adopted at the 1996 Autumn Council (now Annual Council) of the General Conference Executive Committee.
http://spectrummagazine.org/article/201 … enty-years
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Tom Norris said: The SDA’s need doctrinal reform, not improved graphics.
As the Advent Movement continues to self-destruct after Glacier View, some church leaders think the problem today is the logo, which they say needs to be updated. As if this can make any difference to this mortally wounded and arrogant Denomination.
Such an exercise is like trying to tweak the White Star Line logo, so as to make people forget about the Titanic, and the other disasters by this incompetent company. Over the years many corporations have changed their names and their logos in an attempt to hide their problems. In 2003, Philip Morris changed their name to Altria in order to distance themselves from the discredited Marlboro Man. Before that in 1997, Value Jet changed their name to Air Tran in order to help people forget about the loss of life from their horrible crash in the Everglades. Such are the games corporations play, and so to religious organizations.
White Star Line Disasters - The Titanic Was Just The Tip of the Iceberg:
http://hubpages.com/education/White-Sta … he-Iceberg
11 Brand Names That Simply Couldn't Survive the Times
http://www.adweek.com/news-gallery/adve … mes-163440
Let everyone understand: no amount of graphic design can hide, much less solve, the serious problems within Adventism. The Adventist brand is in shambles, with millions abandoning the Denomination in confusion, anger, and remorse. At some point, the leaders need to tell the truth and repent for their many errors, starting with Glacier View. Then credible theological reform must replace worthless and trite corporate propaganda. But when?
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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IT IS OK TO BE A “CULTURAL ADVENTIST”
By Monte Sahlin
What is a “cultural Adventist” and why is it a term worth considering? It is a sociological concept borrowed from Judaism to differentiate between “observant” Jews who connect with the Jewish faith and people who were born and raised with Jewish ethnicity but no longer believe in God. It emerged in the aftermath of the massive genocide of Jews during the 1930s and 1940s which led to the theological question, How could God allow such a horror to be visited on His faithful believers?
There is a basic question about whether the transfer of the concept really works. Adventists have been persecuted for their faith, but never on the scale (even measured per capita) of the Jewish people. Clearly, the concept of “cultural Adventists” has to be modified and cannot be a clone of the original concept of “cultural Jews.”
Perhaps a more appropriate concept is that of the Amish young adults who leave the Amish life, some joining independent conservative Christian congregations that proliferate around Amish colonies and some becoming a part of the larger “unchurched” American general public. Research has shown that they typically maintain an informal network of relationships with other people who have left the Amish life as well as attempt to have some relationship with their families despite the rules about “shunning.” At the same time they work to build a life for themselves along the lines of a more typical or “average” American.
The Adventist movement does not have as strongly developed a culture as do the Amish. Adventists are more open to outsiders and less of a separatist sect than the Amish, but if you grew up in an Adventist family, you know that there is an Adventist culture. Vegetarian diet, established patterns of Sabbath-keeping, an insider language, Adventist schools, the Pathfinder Club instead of Scouting, a proliferation of Adventist organizations and a pronounced sense of being different all are artifacts of an Adventist culture. And if you grew up in Loma Linda or Glendale, California; or Berrien Springs, Michigan; or Collegedale, Tennessee; or College Place, Washington; or any one of the other Adventist communities around the globe, it is even more obvious.
“Ellen White Says I Am Going to Hell”
A man who grew up in an Adventist family that I had lunch with years ago smiled as it he said this. He knew it was not literally true and, in fact, it was an insider joke because Ellen White did not believe in the conventional Christian idea of hell. But it was his nod to the very real sense of profound disapproval and disconnection that one can have if you are raised in an Adventist family, go to Adventist schools, marry someone who was raised an Adventist and then come to a time when you need to stop going to church or even being a church member. And the people in your life who most often use the phrase “Sister White says” are often the ones who most clearly draw the line.
These are all elements of culture. See that old textbook from Anthropology 101 that props up something in a closet somewhere or sits in a corner of a bookcase. All religion is a dimension of culture or a kind of culture. Much of what we think is important in religion is a human creation, not a demand of the Most High God.
So who is the “cultural” Adventist precisely? Is it the person who was raised an Adventist, is familiar with the culture and even comfortable with a lot of it, but no longer believes everything he or she was taught as a child? Or is it the person who says “Ellen White says” too often and makes you feel like you are going to some kind of properly-defined hell?
A part of maturing as an adult is coming to a point where you recognize the weaknesses and limitations of your parents and still love them fully and deeply. Nothing requires that you be a clone to be faithful to their memory.
Frankly, one thing that makes me angry is when someone tells me that another person “is not really an Adventist.” I have news for them; that kind of judgmental attitude is unChristlike. I want to say, “You don’t know their heart. God has not given you the right to make this kind of assessment.” Yet I believe in being kind to these judgmental people, also.
The idea that there is only one right way to be an Adventist is as un-Adventist as it gets. Up until the 1930s, the denomination had no Church Manual. Its doctrinal statement was not officially voted until 1980. During most of the history of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, especially its early history, each believer was free to believe as they decided. To this day on some very important ethical issues, such as abortion and whether or not to kill people during war, the official position of the denomination is to allow each member to follow their own conscience.
If someone attempts to convince you that it is OK to make up your own mind about when to observe the commandment about killing, but there are less consequential items that you must do in a certain way, that person simply lacks all credibility and rationality. They clearly do not speak for God, the author of reason.
What Has Been Your Spiritual Journey?
Life is a journey. No one asks you if you want to begin the trip and much of reality has already been shaped for you by the time you wake up and realize what is happening to you. Each of us has our own spiritual journey as we come to terms with relationships, morality, how to be creative and productive, enjoy your family and friends and think about the big questions. We all have an obligation to respect the spiritual journey of each of the other people we come into contact with along the way. Nothing and no one, especially not God, gave us the right to think of ourselves as more righteous than others.
The real truth about Jesus is that He teaches us to love one another, even our enemies. Loving another person does not mean that I agree with them. It means that I give them the freedom to believe what they want and I am faithful to what I believe. Giving others the room to be themselves does not threaten who I am and what I believe in any way.
Adventist Today takes an inclusive view of the Adventist community defined as “a big tent,” with all kinds of Adventists equally welcome. If you are a “cultural” Adventist, you are welcome here. If you are a “mainstream” Adventist, you are welcome here. If you are a “former” Adventist, you are welcome here. If you are a “very conservative” Adventist, you are welcome here. If you are not sure what you are or even if you are sure you are not any kind of Adventist and have enough interest in the topic to read AT, you are welcome. God bless, you my friend and sojourner.
And for church leaders who think that the way to build up the church is to sneer at “cultural” Adventists, I have news for you: It is counterproductive. It isn’t even Christlike or righteous. It’s just rude.
http://atoday.org/ok-cultural-adventist … ent-143909
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Bill Sorensen said:
“Frankly, one thing that makes me angry is when someone tells me that another person “is not really an Adventist.”
Well, no kidding. All you flaming liberals want a church with no definition or identity. Blah, blah, blah…….on and on.
A “Cultural Adventist” is one who has little or no idea of what the church teaches and don’t care. They belong to “the church” their parents belonged to. So the comment was about a non-definitive religion that you all embrace with a “big tent” spirituality that is so ambiguous the church has no discernable identity. Or, we all believe anything we want and no one can “judge” me or what it believe.
This article is sick beyond comprehension.
Rocky, you ask the right question, but won’t get a viable answer on this forum. They don’t want any “church identity” so they can believe whatever they please and still claim to be SDA’s.
This is the typical liberal agenda, not only in religion, but in secular politics as well. Just like many are trying to undermine and destroy the clear and unambiguous definitive SDA doctrine, so many in the USA political arena are working to destroy the constitution. The final demise of the constitution will pave the way to the final destruction of religious liberty and finally an effort to overthrow bible Adventism. That’s what this (AToday) forum and Spectrum is all about. And they should be elated because they are winning the war on the doctrines of the church and their war on the bible.
God will yet create a bible believing community of believers who not only confess faith in the bible, but actually know what it teaches. That will be a novelty unknown in the SDA church of today.
Tom Norris said: Those that complain about “pluralism” are correct to do so. There are not many Gospels, but only one. However, the SDA’s do not have the correct New Covenant Gospel, nor is their Sabbath based eschatology credible. This is the real problem.
While the SDA liberals may be gaining ground against the legalistic conservatives, so what? The Advent Movement is self-destructing. Both the liberal and the legalistic side of Adventism are self-destructing for all to see. Gospel Reform is the only answer.
Bob Hawley said:
Thanks for an excellent article!
I grew up in a typical legalistic SdA home; church school through three years of academy and a year at WWC. I left 17 years ago because I couldn’t in good conscience call myself a Seventh-day Adventist after I stopped believing in some major tenets.
For a person to honestly call himself an SdA, he should believe in EGW and the fundamental doctrines.
I suspect there may be many who cling to church membership despite their disagreement with EGW, the investigative judgment, and other beliefs because they believe membership is tied to salvation.
The question I ask myself is: Is it the church following cunningly devised fables or is it I? According to my Bible, I believe it is they.
Tom Norris said: The SDA’s are following a confused, incorrect, and terminated message. They must repent and move forward to develop credible, Gospel based eschatology.
How Big is the SDA Tent?
Not big enough, because if there is no room for Gospel Reformers, like Dr. Ford, the Denomination is doomed. If there is no room for truth telling, repentance, and Gospel Reform, then this tent is way too small.
Let everyone understand, modern Adventism is not based on the Bible, as they claim. Rather the SDA tent is supported by a significant amount of propaganda and historical fraud from the White Estate. Those that refuse to embrace Arthur White's religious fiction, have no real place within Adventism. Which is why most people leave.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … uments.htm
In fact, when it comes to doctrine like the IJ or Tithe, no one is allowed to question the hierarchy, much less promote Gospel reforms. Glacier View proved this point. Simply put, there is no free speech or thought allowed within Adventism, - not from "cultural Adventists," much less "cultural Adventists scholars."
Within a narrow range of doctrines, SDA’s must believe as they are told or they can leave, because they are no longer Adventist. And most have left, refusing to call themselves Adventist. Thus Adventism is caught in deep and fatal crisis. Although corrupt, they want to appear honest, open, and friendly so as to retain their few remaining members. But this plan is failing and will not work.
Which is why those like Tom Norris, who was raised SDA and caught the White Estate hiding documents, is silenced and censored, not allowed to speak online in either Spectrum or the Review Forums. This is because the Denomination is not open or honest. Nor do they have any desire to tell the truth and admit their many mistakes and false doctrines and embrace serious reform. The leaders are just playing games as Adventism self-destructs in front of our eyes.
Let all understand: the SDA doctrinal tent is not only full of holes and leaking water, it is falling down for all to see. THIS is why millions of "cultural Adventists" have left the church and more leave all the time.
The SDA church is confused and very wrong about numerous points, but yet, the leaders pretend all is well when the church is clearly divided, full of error, anger, and schism.
It time to stop pretending all is well and repair the divided, useless, and collapsed SDA "tent." The Advent Movement can only be saved by repentance for Glacier View, followed by honest, Gospel reforms.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Jim Hamstra posted on May 6, 2016 at 11:55 am
Tom,
To my knowledge, Dr Desmond Ford was never dis-fellowshipped from the SDA church. If he is no longer a member in good and regular standing (and he was still a member the last time I asked someone who knew him) it would only be because he chose to withdraw from our fellowship.
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Tom Norris said:
Jim, you must be kidding? Dr. Ford was treated like a heretic for telling the truth about the IJ.
He was FORCED to recant his CORRECT views or leave the SDA tent. Being a Gospel man of honor and truth, he left without an angry word.
Let’s not re-write SDA history. Propaganda is not truth, and neither is fiction.
This is the greatest of all SDA problems; they are BLIND to truth, even as they ignore the facts that prove them wrong. Sad.
Jim, you need to correct your false views of Glacier View and stop promoting nonsense.
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Dwayne V. Turner said May 6, 2016 at 8:30 pm
Bro. Norris…I am curious as to what is your continued interest or participation in the SDA Church. Are you still a member?
Tom Norris said: I was born and raised SDA. In spite of their many problems, I think Adventist theology has some important and necessary truth for the last church.
See:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … norris.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … lief-1.htm
Dwayne said: It baffles me why some are so bothered by what the SDA Church teaches that they become restless to see her make radical shifts in her teachings.
Tom replied: Do you think you are the only one with an opinion about Adventism? Many have invested a lot of time and resources into Adventism and they feel betrayed as it self-destructs in doctrinal confusion and corruption. Many have a personal stake in seeing this eschatological movement succeed.
Who are you to censor and complain about their rights and hopes? Did the Pioneers make you their spokesperson? Do you speak for Jesus? Hardly.
Jesus teaches that at the end of time, the last church is blind; full of false doctrine, and so too does Ellen White. Empirical evidence also proves this point to be true.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
What “baffles” me is how blind people think they can see.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
Dwayne said: The most logical thing to do, if the church will not teach what you believe, is to leave.
Tom said: What you think is “logical” is not supported by the Gospel or church history. Just think if Christ took your advice; he would have left Judaism instead of reforming it into the Christian Faith. Think again about Luther, had he not tried to reform the church, there would have been no Protestant movement.
Adventism needs serious Gospel REFORM, not evacuation so that a handful of legalistic zealots can run it further into the ground.
Dwayne said: I find it fascinating that individuals, who “have left us”, continue to have a great interest in the goings on of the church. It would seem that if people have left (escaping the “dreadful teachings of the church”) then there should be a “sigh of relief” for having been “delivered” from such strong delusions. However, this is not the case. Ex-Adventist habitually participate in forums like this and Spectrum, closely following every bit of news, and celebrating any departure from “the old ways” on the part of the church.
Tom replied: Many people joined Adventism because it was sold to them as if it were 100% TRUTH. But this claim has been proven very false and impossible. So there are a lot of angry consumers out there that feel they have been deceived and scammed. And so they have. THIS is why Millions have left the SDA’s since Glacier View in 1980. But they did so because they were forced to embrace false, legalistic doctrine or leave. Many choose the Gospel over doctrinal nonsense and historical fraud. This is why so many are angry; their church has not been honest or correct about a lot of doctrine, especially the IJ. Moreover, they take offense that this IJ scam is still going strong, and some naturally try to warn others not to be fooled.
See: Leaving the SDA Church
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=233
Dwayne said: Let me tell you how I see it…Everyone, associated with or having been a part of the SDA Church, knows in their heart of hearts that the SDA Church teaches the truth. What people have not come to grips with is that some of the teachings/standards/practices we espouse are teachings that they simply don’t want to believe or practice. Instead, the church is accused falsely; it’s called “misplaced anger”. They then charge those who don’t question our teachings as being “close or narrow-minded”. Remember, the “broad road” is not touted in scripture; the narrow road…
Tom said: This idea that the SDA’s have 100% Gospel Truth is false and absurd. This is the problem. The blind think they can see, when they have long ago fallen in a ditch of delusion. There is a long list of errors that could be cited in addition to the IJ, including the Sabbath, which they do not have fully correct. In fact, the SDA’s don’t even know how to conduct the Lord’s Supper correctly because they think Jesus drank Welch’s grape juice. Who knew that the SDA's have embraced a doctrine from Islam?
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=238
So you can forget this idea that everyone “knows” that the SDA’s are the smartest and most correct of all Christians. Only a handful of uneducated zealots think this way. The vast majority thinks the SDA’s are full of error, confusion, and corruption. I agree with this sad assessment.
In conclusion, the SDA's need to repent for Glaicer View and stop pretending that they have all possible truth when in fact they are full of error that needs to be correctected.
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Former Review Editor Writes About a Radical Jesus / Tom Norris Responds
21 August 2016 | By Alita Byrd | By Tom Norris, September 2016
William Johnsson, editor of the Adventist Review for more than two decades, is one of the speakers at the upcoming Adventist Forum conference, which will examine the atonement and the character of God. Here he answers questions about his book on Jesus’ radical teachings, his greatest insights about the Christian life, and how Adventist media has changed (in a way that he says would make Uriah Smith apoplectic!).
http://spectrummagazine.org/article/201 … ical-jesus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_G._Johnsson
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Johnsson Interview (partial):
Question: You served as editor of the Adventist Review for a remarkably long 24 years. How do you feel the Adventist church changed during that time?
Answer: For better, for worse. Wonderful ministries, wonderful initiatives, creativity, more inclusive, greater involvement with society. Along with more materialistic, more involved in internal politics, still alarmingly racist and sexist. But you need to know that I'm bullish on this church.
Question: What differences do you see in today's Adventist media landscape compared to when you were at the Adventist Review?
Answer: A mixed bag. We're great innovators — look at our history of utilizing the media — so of course we have global TV, satellite networks 24/7. I'm afraid, however, that content hasn't kept pace with advances in the technology. As far as official church publications are concerned, I'm distressed. It seems as though the official press has been muzzled. Uriah Smith would be apoplectic!
Question: What new insights about the Christian life came to you in your research?
Answer: So many. How dynamic, how disturbing Jesus was/ is. He's the no-baloney Man. Organized religion breeds a lot of baloney, in the first century or the 21st, in all religions, Adventism included. Jesus was real, authentic, wonderful, refreshing. And another insight: the kingdom of God isn't the same as the church!
Question: What do you see as the most important issues for the Adventist church in the next decade?
Answer: Well, check out my new book, due to come out later this year! I'll let you have the title, but no more: Where Are We Headed? Adventism After San Antonio. This isn't a promo — I'm donating all royalty receipts from the work.
Question: What advice would you have for Adventist media, like Spectrum?
Answer: The Seventh-day Adventist Church needs you to get out the news and to foster constructive dialogue. So tell it straight and tell it honestly. Don't get caught up in muckraking or personal agendas.
And be positive, help the people cope in these stressful times. Make hope your bottom line.
http://spectrummagazine.org/article/201 … ical-jesus
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(Tom Norris responds to Bill Johnsson’s Spectrum Interview above.)
William Johnsson, Former Review Editor & White Estate Board Member Double-talks / Uses Jesus As Diversion | By: Tom Norris Sept 2016
One would think that a failed leader like Bill Johnsson would fade away in quiet embarrassment, but that is not the case. He still writes and speaks, as if he has something important to say. In fact, fresh from writing a new book about Jesus, he promises to provide another about the “future of Adventism.” So what is going on? What specific wisdom does the aging, former Editor of the Review and White Estate board member, have for the Adventist Community?
Johnsson reminds me of Robert McNamera, the disgraced Secretary of Defense that was so wrong about Vietnam, but refused to confess his colossal blunder. It was not until he was an old man that he could bring himself to admit that the failed war, which cost so many lives, was a major mistake. But even so, he never formally admitted his error and neither has Bill Johnsson, who pursued a reckless and disastrous, post Glacier View war against Dr. Ford. Stopping much needed Adventist Reform, and leaving Adventism a worthless wasteland.
Johnsson used his position as theological gatekeeper, from 1982 until 2006, to defended Glacier View and shut down Gospel Reform. He also promoted the false narrative from the White Estate, joining in the long running, 1888 cover up. He was chosen, as Editor in 1982, because he had written his1973 dissertation on Hebrews, and the church needed someone who appeared to have some expertise to push back against Dr. Ford. While Kenneth Wood, the former Review Editor was responsible for the catastrophe of Glacier View. It was William Johnsson that made a name for himself by writing articles against Ford’s views. Johnsson happily embraced Woods legalistic, anti-Gospel agenda, promoting the IJ as if it were Gospel truth, when it was not. Thus he led the post Glacier View church into a quagmire of confusion and schism that has ruined the Advent Movement; sending millions of Adventist refugees fleeing for a better religion.
With such a tragedy on his resume, why is he happily writing about Jesus and the future of Adventism as if he bears no responsibility for the disaster he helped create? As if he has some wisdom to impart? This is wrong. William Johnsson needs to repudiate the Investigative Judgment, repent for Glacier View, and confess his many doctrinal errors, including the sin of censorship. He needs to call for an end to this SDA war against much needed Gospel Reform. He needs to call for an end to censorship and historical manipulation, confessing the massive fraud in the White Estate, all of which is destroying the Advent Movement.
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MEA CULPA
Robert McNamara
High government leaders aren't generally known for flaunting their errors. But toward the end of his life, former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara issued a string of candid mea culpas for misjudgments about Vietnam that were made during his 1961-68 tenure at the Pentagon, especially his delay in acting on growing doubts that the war could be won.
"I'm very sorry that in the process of accomplishing things, I've made errors," McNamara said in Fog of War, an Oscar-winning 2003 documentary. While he never issued a formal apology for his role in the quagmire, McNamara, who died in July 2009 at age 93, made clear he was haunted by the blunders made under his watch that cost the lives of thousands of U.S. troops.
"People don't want to admit they made mistakes," he explained to the New York Times. "This is true of the Catholic Church, it's true of companies, it's true of nongovernmental organizations and it's certainly true of political bodies."
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. We owe it to future generations to explain why." — McNamara, writing in his 1995 memoir, In Retrospect, on the management of the Vietnam War
http://content.time.com/time/specials/p … 22,00.html
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Truth, Not Propaganda
The Advent Movement is starving for truth, not for more double-talk, censorship, and propaganda from those that have proven to be so arrogant, incompetent, and wrong. It is time for the Adventist leaders to come to their senses and stop the endless propaganda machine, which is only driving people further away. The repition of cultic myths in the Review will never make them true. Propaganda, censorship, and spiritual talking points are not the same as genuine Gospel Truth, and neither is false doctrine, like the IJ or Tithe.
It is time to tell truth about Adventist history and doctrine and the Gospel.
I want to see Bill Johnsson admit that he was dead wrong about Glacier View and many others things, including the definition of the Three Angels Messages. Raymond Cottrell made such a good confession after he retired. He repented of the Investigative Judgment. Is this what Johnnson is about to do? I doubt it. I think he still believes this theological farce.
In hindsight, there is no question that Johnsson's long tenure as Review Editor was a disaster, which is why Adventism is a wasteland today, a bad joke to millions. So he needs to figure out what went wrong in the past before he wastes our time with his worthless views about Jesus or eschatology. Without a clear and factual view of the past, it is impossible to comprehend the future.
So what does Johnsson have to say about the meltdown of the Adventist Movement after 1980, which took place on his watch? Will he repent for Glacier View, which he supported, or will he defend this great disaster, which has ruined modern Adventism for all to see?
Is Johnsson ready to denounce the IJ like Raymond Cottrell did after he retired? Does he regret covering up the massive publishing fraud that he knew was discovered in the White Estate? Is he ashamed that he was such a relentless apologist for false doctrine, and for his role at censoring those that wanted Gospel Reform? Will he even dare address these issues?
So far, Johnsson has been wasting our time, and his, with religious diversions and trite speaking topics. He needs to deal openly and honestly with 1888 and Glacier View, repenting for the large role he played in this debacle. He only has a short time left to do the right thing and save his soul.
Of course no hard questions were asked in this trite interview, designed to promote his latest book. They never are. Why? Because Adventist Media does not allow for serious questions about real issues. Everything is manipulated, censored, and set up to make the leaders look good and truthful when they are neither. This is why nothing ever gets resolved. Fancy graphics and nice looking websites are no substitute for truth. The sooner the leaders understand this point the better. However, there were some surprises from Johnsson’s self-serving interview, even as there was some predictable manipulation of church history that is so typical of all SDA leaders. Let’s start with the surprise.
Surprise Truth
After years of denial and stonewalling, it seems that the aging apologist, Bill Johnsson, just admitted that SDA doctrine is full of, wait for it…- “baloney.” While this is what the critics have been saying for decades, the leaders always strongly disagree. But sometimes the grave will frighten a person into admitting what they have denied all their life. This may be the case here. Bill Johnsson just let the truth slip out for all to see.
Bill Johnsson said: “Organized religion breeds a lot of baloney, in the first century or the 21st, in all religions, Adventism included.”
Are we about to witness another death-bed confession that Dr. Ford was correct and Glacier View a great mistake? Will Johnsson follow the late Raymond Cottrell and admit that the IJ is false doctrine? If so, better late then never. But I have my doubts. Moreover, such a general confession about “baloney”, while true, is way too general, too little, and too late. Where are the specifics? What exactly is “baloney” and what is solid doctrinal truth? Will Johnsson dare speak plainly and honestly before he dies? Does he even know how?
Here is a great truth spoken by Johnsson, who has spent his whole life defending SDA baloney non-stop. Too bad he could not have said this 30 years ago, along with Dr. Ford, who did comprehend that SDA’s were full of false doctrine, starting with the IJ. Things could have turned out much better. While both critics and scholars have long known about many SDA doctrinal errors, the leaders, including Johnsson, pushed back against much needed Adventist Reform. As the Review Editor, he doubled down on myths and legends from the White Estate as he led the church away from Gospel Reform and into great confusion and schism.
Is Johnsson ready to confess and repent for his promotion of so much SDA “baloney”?
Let everyone understand, Bill Johnsson fought against Adventist Reform, censoring such discussion at every opportunity, even as the church self-destructed right in front of our eyes. He was a failed Editor that help ruin modern Adventism. Although he had an opportunity to stand against legalism, and for the Gospel, he refused. And now, at the end of his life, he admits, along with millions that have left the church, that SDA doctrine is full of baloney and error. What took him so long? No doubt his paycheck.
Bill Johnsson is infamous for defending Traditional, Old Covenant, IJ based, Adventism. He attacked Dr. Ford at Glacier View and slandered him afterwards many times. He is also the man that looked the other way when the White Estate was caught hiding documents and manipulating Ellen White’s views. He was, and still is, part of an ongoing cover-up in the White Estate that has deceived the public about Ellen White. He is one of many awful leaders that has help ruin the modern Advent Movement. I wonder if he is sorry at all? Or will he go to his grave clinging to his cultic SDA delusions, blaming the demise of Adventism on Dr. Ford?
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … uments.htm
While Johnsson claims to be bullish on the future of Adventism, on what basis? The credibility of SDA doctrine is at an all time low, even as millions of members have left and more continually leave all the time. Where is the plan to turn things around? Moreover, because the leaders, including Johnsson, do not allow for honest discussion, they censor those that want to address the real issues and silence those that know the most. With such hierarchical behavior, how can there be any improvement? There are no plans to allow freedom of speech or implement honest reform in the church. Such openness is not allowed, only propaganda and censorship, which no longer works very well in the information age.
It should be obvious that the modern SDA church has been heading in the wrong direction, - ever since Glacier View in 1980. This is where the church made a fatal mistake to force everyone to embrace Uriah Smith’s legalistic doctrine of the Investigative Judgment. This foolish error, which had no support from Ellen White, has almost destroyed the Advent Movement. A little more time and it will.
Editor Johnsson was on the wrong side of the debate at Glacier View, just like Uriah Smith in the 1888 debates about Two Covenants. Consequently, Johnsson should be called out for his incompetent and disastrous role as Review Editor for so many years, not made out to be a hero. He has lived the life of a coward, a Pharisee that refuses to face up to the issues, censoring and persecuting Gospel believers became part of his job description, which proves he is Gospel Fraud.
Just as the powerful Editor Uriah Smith fought against Gospel Reform and tried to censor his critics in Battle Creek, so too Editor Johnsson in Takoma Park and Silver Spring, with the same horrible results of schism. With such a clear record of theological failure and censorship, it is very hypocritical for Johnsson, at the end of his life, to call for honest and straight talk about doctrine. Something he never did or allowed. He censored many people, including this writer, all in an attempt to defend error and prevent Adventist Reform. He has no such authority from Christ.
So what is going on? Is Johnsson really calling for honest discussion about the issues? Or is this more of the same worthless double-talk and diversion that this man has been using all his life. Johnsson’s reform minded words, while sounding good, do not ring true, because his actions tell a different story, and so too the massive censorship that envelops and suppresses the Advent Community to this very day. No wonder so many have left the church in disgust. Adventism is run like a totalitarian regime, where the organization controls all thought, doctrine, and action. Pitiful.
Bill Johnsson said: As far as official church publications are concerned, I'm distressed. It seems as though the official press has been muzzled. Uriah Smith would be apoplectic!
First, let’s see if Johnsson can tell the truth about Adventist history, without placing a false spin on things. Would Uriah Smith be upset at the non-stop censorship that prevents honest doctrinal discussion within Adventism today? Is this historical point even true? Or is Johnsson portraying Uriah Smith in a false light, essentially defending the White Estate’s false narrative about 1888?
The latter is true. This claim by Johnsson that Uriah Smith would be angry about censorship is laughable. Why? Because Uriah Smith was the Review Editor that wanted to censor and punish EJ Waggoner for questioning church doctrine. And when Ellen White entered the 1888 debates, it was Uriah Smith that tried to keep her out the pulpit unless she agreed with his views. She became so angry that she threatened to rent a hall in town and start a new Adventist Movement if he dared try to censor her. This is well-documented history.
So yes, Uriah Smith was “apoplectic” but not in the context that Johnsson claimed. Smith was furious with Ellen White because she refused to allow him to censor Waggoner during the infamous 1888 debates. Moreover, Ellen White became angry at Smith for his attempts to censor her about doctrine. So Johnsson is up to his old games of manipulating Adventist history and embracing the fabrications of the White Estate. This is what all SDA leaders do; because the historical truth about Ellen White and 1888 is too shockingly different from their comfortable myths. They like Arthur Whites tall tales, even though they know they are not true.
History shows that Uriah Smith loved to censor his fellow SDA’s that had different views from him. And so too did the modern day Review Editors, including Johnsson! Of course, Johnsson knows this 1888 history, which means he is just up to his old double-talking tricks. By invoking Uriah Smith as an honest, straight talking man, who would not censor doctrinal discussion, he has exposed himself as dishonest for all to see. Manipulating history for his own ends.
Johnsson is like the arrogant Smith; an expert at propaganda, double-talk and censorship. And his own words have just caught him changing history to fit church propaganda. This is the great sin of the SDA leaders; they cannot be honest with the facts of history. Which is why they made the White Estate into a fortress, in order to hide the real history they did not like. This is what liars and double-talkers do, old or young. Like politicians, they twist the facts to make them whatever they want them to be. Thus proving that truth does not matter, only their view of it. Such behavior is against the Gospel. No one that claims to follow Jesus can act this way.
Moreover, Johnsson knows that Ellen White had very harsh words for U Smith about his censoring, arrogant attitude, and that they became enemies for life after 1888. So he is still playing games with the Adventist Community at the end of his life, just as he did in his prime. Johnsson has betrayed the Advent Movement. Ellen White would condemn him for his support of Glacier View, just as she condemned Uriah Smith for his 1888 role that helped destroy the Battle Creek Empire.
Is Johnsson ready to condemn the White Estate for their false views of 1888? For hiding documents and lying about it all these years? I doubt it. Uriah Smith never accepted responsibility for the great Battle Creek schism he caused, and neither has the church. He blamed it on the 1888 Gospel Reformers, never comprehending that he was the problem. The Takoma Park apologists covered up the 1888 history, making Smith out to be a great man, when this is not the case. However, Bill Johnsson supports this fiction and fraud in the White Estate. As a White Estate Board Member, he should be charged with the crime of Publishing Fraud, as should all of these bad actors.
Johnsson is very much like the Uriah Smith; and that is not a compliment. Just as Smith failed to comprehend the Gospel, so too Bill Johnsson. Both of these Review editors led the church into great schism, with neither willing to admit it. Shame on these worthless leaders, including Kenneth Wood. They made lots of money from the church during their lives, and thus sold their souls for coin. They were loyal to the Denomination, but not to Christ.
Johnsson Censors Adventist Reform
The word hypocrite is rooted in the Greek word hypokrites, which means “stage actor, pretender, dissembler.” Thus, a hypocrite is a person who pretends to be a certain way, but really acts and believes the total opposite. William Johnsson, like most all SDA leaders, is a great hypocrite. While he pretends he is against censorship, and wants to see the Adventist Media unmuzzeled, he regularly used censorship to silence the critics and those that wanted reform.
So why is Johnsson pretending to be “distressed” about the non-stop censorship of Adventist Media? He was a long time propagandist for the church, as such, he routinely censored and slandered the critics that refused to embrace the Review’s confused agenda. Who is he trying to fool today? This man is a great hypocrite. He is more like a politician than a theologian; full of double-talk, spin, and diversion. The Adventist Media, including the Review, is corrupt to the core, promoting nothing but worthless propaganda and religious manipulation.
Matt. 23:27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.
Uriah Smith never had to worry about the Internet. However, Johnsson had no choice as social media changed the communication landscape in the late 20th century. Suddenly, the membership could make their voices heard in various church Forums and web sites. And they did. Criticism of the leaders, and what they did to Dr. Ford at Glacier View, became a topic of debate, as did the corruption of President Faulkenburg, and the massive fraud in the White Estate. It was a lively online discussion that would soon come to a crashing halt. Why? Because Bill Johnsson shut it down. He would not tolerate criticism, much less facts that proved his views wrong.
When it comes to censorship, no one should forget that Bill Johnsson shut down the very active AToday Forum, which had plenty of straight and honest doctrinal talk. In fact, he had been invited to be interviewed about church doctrine and history by Tom Norris. But instead of showing up for an honest discussion, he shut down the AToday Forum, starting an online purge that was so severe that the GC Forum also went dark. He showed his true colors then as an evil man with a false spirit. Now, at the end of his life, he is pretending to be someone with wisdom to impart to the church. Someone who understands the teachings of Jesus. But in fact, this great hypocrite needs to confess and repent. Jesus does not teach censorship or the IJ, much less Tithe, or even obedience to the 4th Commandment. Bill Johnsson and the SDA's are followiung a false Christ of their own making.
Site History
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=224
Today, the Adventist media is so heavily censored, including the Review, AToday, and Spectrum, that honest discussion is impossible. Which is by design. There is no freedom of thought or speech allowed in the Adventist Community, much less any challenge to what the leaders have declared to be truth. Nor was there any open or honest discussion allowed when Johnsson was Review Editor. This is why millions have left the church, and more leave all the time. The Advent Movement is broken, and Bill Johnsson worked hard to make it so. Now would be a good time for him, and all the rest, to stop publishing worthless books and making trite speeches and repent, facing up to the real issues.
Look around; the SDA church in North America is a wasteland. We can all thank Bill Johnsson for this sorry outcome. He worked hard to push the church’s worthless and dishonest agenda forward, all the while censoring and slandering those, like Dr. Ford or Tom Norris, who were promoting honest, necessary Gospel Reform. Bill Johnsson almost died a few years ago, and now, at 82, he stands at the end of his life. While he may have fooled a number of people because of his high position in the church, I am not one of them. This Pharisee should hang his head in shame for failing to be honest about the Gospel and Church history with the Adventist Community. He led the SDA’s down false paths, full of myths and known error. Shame on this man!
No one should be impressed with Johnsson's non-stop double-talk, much less with his recent emphasis on Jesus, including his fake outrage about the One Project, which is a desperate and theologically failed attempt to promote Jesus above SDA doctrine. Only when false doctrines like the IJ, tithe, and Old Covenant Sabbath keeping are repudiated, can the genuine Christ of the Gospels emerge from the confusion of Adventism. Otherwise, the Jesus that is being promoted is a worthless, legalistic fraud.
http://conversation.spectrummagazine.or … ad/11545/1
http://spectrummagazine.org/article/mar … r-blessing
Uriah Smith also wrote a lot about Jesus during the last decade of the 19th century, because this too, was the fashion of the day. But no one should be fooled by such diversions. Smith never understood the Gospel teachings of Jesus correctly, and neither does Bill Johnsson. If they did, both would have repented for their many incorrect, anti-Gospel doctrines, like the IJ, which has been proven wrong for all to see by Dr. Ford. But this they will never do. Like the Pharisees of old, they are too proud to admit their mistakes and repent.
Looking Unto Jesus, Or, Christ in Type and Antitype; 1898 by Uriah Smith
https://books.google.com/books/about/Lo … HDQAAACAAJ
http://centrowhite.org.br/files/ebooks/ … 0Jesus.pdf
Both Review Editors made a comfortable living as they staked their lives, and their bank accounts, on SDA doctrine, as if it were 100% correct; and it has been their undoing. Which is why money and religion are not a good mix. Dr. Ford chose Gospel Truth and walked away from his salary and retirement rather than embrace false, cultic doctrines, like the IJ. Ford stood firm for the teachings of Jesus; he sacrificed his career, while cowards like Bill Johnsson twisted the Bible to make it say what the hierarchy demanded, attacking Gospel Reform in the process in order to advance in the hierarchy.
No wonder Jesus teaches that the love of money is root of all evil. In Christ’s day, the religious elites made their living from religion, just like the Review Editors. Thus they were not predisposed to listen to any new views, much less give up their salary and benefits for the Gospel. The love of money and status has driven many religious people to reject the Gospel, all the while thinking they were on Gods side. Just like the SDA Review Editors.
Luke 16:13 “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.”
Luke 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him.
Luke 16:15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.
John 11:46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them the things which Jesus had done.
John 11:47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs.
John 11:48 “If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”
1Tim. 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil,
Bill Johnsson Should Repent
Regardless how foolish and naïve the Advent Community, heaven has never been fooled. If Johnsson, the Pharisee, has any serious plans about surviving the grave, I suggest he quickly repent and start talking straight about church history and doctrine. Which means he needs to specifically repent for his many incorrect views, like the IJ, as well as for the massive publishing fraud in the White Estate.
He should not speak or write about Christ, unless he first repents for denying him all these years. Jesus does not teach censorship or the doctrine of the IJ, and there is no excuse for Johnsson not to know such theological facts. Dr. Ford understood the Gospel teachings of Christ, while Bill Johnsson is only now trying to comprehend the radical nature of the Gospel. He should apologize to Dr. Ford and beg his forgiveness before it is forever too late.
Moreover, Bill Johnsson should also apologize in tears to the entire SDA Community for stopping the discussions about Adventist Reform, and shutting down the very conversation that can save the dying Advent Movement. If he wants to become an honest man before he dies, one that follows the genuine, radical Christ, then he needs to embrace Gospel Reform, with both hands, conducting an honest interview with Tom Norris about the issues. If he is a changed man, then he will answer the hard questions, which he has been avoiding all these years. If not, he will run away like the guilty Pharisee he has become.
Few people know that with Ellen White’s full approval, Uriah Smith was fired from the Review in disgrace at the end of his life for doctrinal reasons. He died a confused, rejected, and deluded man in 1903, an enemy of Ellen White. As he looked back on the destruction of the Battle Creek Empire he helped build, and the disastrous 1888 fight between him and Ellen White, he never understood the fatal role he played. And neither does Bill Johnsson understand his horrible role by promoting and defending Glacier View. Both men have a lot in common, and this is not a compliment. Glacier View in 1980 was a repeat of 1888, and Bill Johnsson played the same evil role as did Uriah Smith, with the same predicable outcome, - schism and destruction of the Advent Movement. Shameful.
While the aging SDA leaders would not agree, Eternal Life is not for the double-talking religious elites that think they have done such a wonderful job for the church. Such Pharisees are blind; enemies of Christ. Rather, Eternal Life is only for those that honestly repent of their false views and embrace the genuine Gospel. It is not for those, like either Uriah Smith or Bill Johnsson that cling to the Old Covenant and fight against the Gospel, manipulating the words of Christ to please their religious employer.
I hope Bill Johnsson is not too old, or proud, to understand what he has done. The Advent Movement deserved better. Maybe he can repent before it's too late and save his soul. Perhaps he can even use his last days to help the dying Advent Movement repent and get serious about Gospel Reform? Regardless what this Pharisee does, it is a time for the church to repent and embrace honest, Christ approved, doctrine. This is the Gospel point that the leaders refuse to understand.
Matt. 3:2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
Matt. 11:15 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Question: What is your feedback concerning Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation by Uriah Smith (accuracy, reliability, use in the church as doctrine, etc).
Patti,
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Uriah Smith's Writings
Adventist history has not been honestly taught by the Denomination. The 20th century apologists routinely hid and manipulated church history, including the writings of both Uriah Smith and to a much larger extent Ellen White. As the myths grew over the years, so too did many false doctrines and historical embellishments that were forced upon the church, especially after Glacier View in 1980. As a result of this confusion, millions of SDA’s left the Denomination and more leave all the time. The Advent Movement is, once again, caught up in a great crisis of credibility for all to see.
As for Uriah Smith, he was a self taught theologian and long time editor of the 19th century Review, the Denominations Major publication. While he was too young to have been involved with the Millerite Movement of 1844, he embraced the SDA’s, also known as the 3rd Angels Message, at age 20. A year later, he lived in Battle Creek and worked at the Review office. He soon became their most visible, skilled, and published apologist. His early work about the Two Covenants and the book of Revelation, and then Daniel, showcased what the 19th century Adventist believed and taught.
See: Adventist History Library
https://adventisthistory.wordpress.com/ … hronology/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uriah_Smith
Daniel & Revelation
The history of D & R shows that this classic SDA work was an accident. In 1862, the youthful Uriah Smith taught a popular Sabbath School class in Battle Creek. His lectures on Revelation so impressed James White that he wrote a series of articles for the Review called “Thoughts on Revelation.” By the fall of 1862, White was not halfway through the 22 chapters when he handed the series over to young Uriah Smith for completion. Smith would start with Revelation 10 and complete the series on February 3, 1863. Four years later, in June of 1867, this work, which was co-written by James White and Uriah Smith, was published in book form. This is the first SDA Commentary on Revelation and it soon became the gold standard for SDA eschatology.
"These thoughts are not the fruit of one brain. In the time of the end the Revelation was to be unsealed and opened. And from, the open book, light has been shining. William Miller saw much. Others since have seen more. . . This is a book of thoughts, clothed in the author's happy style, plain, yet critical and practical, coming down to the spiritual wants of the common people, yet elevated and dignified. This standard work should be in the library of every believer."—Ibid., July 16, 1867.
By late 1872,”Thoughts on Daniel” by Uriah Smith was published. In 1881, the year James White died, both works were combined in one volume called “Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation.
https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archiv … revelation
http://www.littlebookopen.org/history/dr1toc.htm
http://www.imsmedia.org/downloads/doc_v … mith-uriah
Early Errors:
Neither James White nor Uriah Smith were trained theologians or scholars. They did the best they could in trying to build upon Miller’s views about the 2nd Coming. But they were often venturing into uncharted territory and thus relied on the work of other commentators. Errors were inevitable. Listen to Arthur White:
“Elder Smith prepared his manuscripts as a scholarly writer would, setting forth denominational views on the great lines of clearly understood prophecy presented in Daniel and Revelation. But when he undertook the verse-by-verse exposition of these two books, he ran into many texts of Scripture which dealt with matters regarding which we as a people had not given much if any study, and in such cases he often set forth the views of the best commentators available, and used freely both the lines of argument and the words of Josiah Litch, George Storrs, and others.”
“Elder Smith demonstrated remarkably good judgment in the selection of matter from these writers. It was but natural that as time advanced, some points became more clear and some errors which had been embodied in his earlier work were seen. This led the author from time to time to make a number of corrections and adjustments in his former statements.”
The Adventists focused on the fulfillment of prophecy. They taught a unique doctrine about the Sabbath and the fall of America, both of which, they claimed, would play a defining role in last day events. D & R soon became the theological proof for SDA doctrine as it carefully detailed the rise of America in prophecy as well as the recent development of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Angels Messages. It quickly became the authoritative guide for all Adventists.
As the decade of the 1880’ s started, the mature Uriah Smith had become, by far, the leading apologist for SDA doctrine. As the popular editor of the Review, he articulated and expanded numerous points of theology and doctrine, even inventing new ways to defend the 10 Commandments and promote the Sabbath. However, his unique views about the Two Covenants, combined with some historical errors in D & R, set the stage for the 1888 disaster and the great schism that destroyed the Battle Creek Empire.
D / R & 1888
The infamous 1888 debates, which actually started in 1886, took place for a number of reasons. The first is because Uriah Smith refused to admit that he made any mistakes in D & R, much less in his book about the Two Covenants. When AT Jones correctly pointed out some historical errors in D & R, and EJ Waggoner showed him to be wrong about The Two Covenants, he became furious. He did not take kindly to his authority being challenged; much less what had become well-accepted doctrine. Ellen White was soon drawn into the conflict and concluded that Smith, was in great error, even following a dark path of unbelief. Smith then repudiated Ellen White, and she was exiled far away from Battle Creek during the 1890’s.
Ten years later, by the turn of the 20th century, the Denomination was so polarized that the church collapsed and the leaders retreated to Takoma Park. Many of their greatest men left the Denomination, like Waggoner, Jones, and Kellogg. The church almost died, which is why, once in Takoma Park, they wanted to avoid any discussion about 1888. It was a forbidden topic for generations.
By 1940, the GC had acquired the White Estate, which was set up in the basement of the Takoma Park church headquarters. Here the leaders hid and suppressed the 1888 conflict, which is why few people know that Uriah Smith and Ellen White became theological enemies after 1888, even as she supported his termination from the Review. Thus the true story has never been told by the Denomination, which is why the truth is so shocking today.
Listen to WC White, the son of Ellen White and friend of both Waggoner and Jones:
"In 1886, 1887, and 1888 there was considerable controversy over some of the expositions in Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation. There was quite a group of men, including myself, who became convinced that there were some errors in this most excellent book that ought to be corrected. Elder Uriah Smith defended very ably the positions taken in the book, but he was a very kind and reasonable man, and was willing to make corrections when errors were made plain.”
"Some of Elder Smith's friends and advisers, however, took a very strong position against making any corrections in Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation. They argued that the book was the result of long, faithful study, that it had received the criticism and approval of the pioneers in our cause; that it had been widely sold and used as an authority by our younger preachers everywhere; that Sister White said that the angel of the Lord stood by Elder Smith as he wrote the book, and that to make changes now would be a confession of weakness and error which would detract from the influence of all our publications and all our preachers; that to make changes would make our ministers ashamed; that we could not longer look the world in the face and say that we had a truth which we could stand by through all the years without vacillation.”
"To this, some of our brethren answered that it was much better to be correct than to be positive; that it was not necessary that we should claim infallibility in our publications in order to secure the respect of the people, and in order that the Spirit of God should witness to the principles which they contain.”
"Some of our ministers and some of our book men argued that if corrections were made, our canvassers would lose confidence in the book, that its sale would be greatly diminished.”
"But finally a number of corrections were made, if I remember correctly about thirty, and the evil results which had been anticipated were never experienced. The sale of the book went on, and those who felt that if the book was corrected an injury would be done to our cause, were also able, after the corrections were made, to give it their support of influence."
W. C. WHITE Letter to A. R Harrison, 1910.
See:
10 horns in 1888 debate
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … debate.htm
https://books.google.com/books?id=puYZx … th&f=false
1888 controversy
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … oversy.htm
Ellen White & D & R
While it is true that Ellen White praised D & R, after 1888, she did so because it represented the prophetic justification for the Advent Movement. Smith’s articulation of the Three Angels Messages, as well as many other points, like the 2nd Coming, and the Sabbath, the Mark of the Beast and the Tribulation, the earth made new, etc represented core points of SDA eschatology. But Ellen White never endorsed his book on the Two Covenants, which was the great point of debate in 1888. She flat out agreed with Waggoner and said Smith was wrong, forever repudiating what is still taught today in the SDA church.
"I consider that that book [Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation] should go everywhere. It has its place and will do a grand, good work." E. G. WHITE Letter 25a, 1889
"The light given was that Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation, The Great Controversy, and Patriarchs and Prophets would make their way. They contain the very message the people must have, the special light God had given His people. The angels of God would prepare the way for these books in the hearts of the people."
E. G. WHITE Letter 43, 1899. (Published in Colporteur Evangelist, p. 21.)
"Instruction has been given me that the important books containing the light that God has given regarding Satan's apostasy in heaven should be given a wide circulation just now; for through them the truth will reach many minds. Patriarchs and Prophets, Daniel and the Revelation, and The Great Controversy, are needed now as never before. They should be widely circulated because the truths they emphasize will open many blind eyes."
Review and Herald, Feb. 16, 1905. (Republished in Colporteur Evangelist, p. 21.)
https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archiv … revelation
Note: Ellen White is on record stating that nothing written in any SDA book, including her own, should be considered unchangeable truth. With the disastrous 1888 debates in mind, she made it clear that there was much error to correct and more truth to understand.
"There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation."—Review and Herald, Dec. 20, 1892.
D & R today
Today, the book Daniel and Revelation has value primarily from a historical perspective. This book, which was originally written by James White and completed by Uriah Smith, accurately reflects what the early SDA’s taught about prophecy, including detailed commentary about the rise of the Three Angels Messages in Rev 14.
Unfortunately, few today have a correct understanding of how the Pioneers defined the Three Angels Messages because the modern day apologists have been so careless and dishonest. This is a critical blunder that can be easily resolved by understanding what Uriah Smith taught about the definition of each of the Three Angels Messages. This core eschatology has been very misunderstood and must be corrected.
The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227
While Uriah Smith was a great legalist, fighting against Waggoner, Jones, and Ellen White in 1888, his views about the IJ, and the history of the Advent Movement, does not reflect what the Takoma Park apologists taught. This popular 20th century idea that the IJ was a pillar in the 1st Angles Message, and thus beyond challenge by Dr. Ford was never part of Adventist eschatology. Smith had always associated the IJ with the 3rd Angels Message, and so too all 19th century SDA’s without exception. The hour of his Judgment has come was always and only a reference to the Second Coming until the Takoma Park apologists starting re-writing church history and promoting IJ propaganda.
Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
Rev. 14:7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”
While the lessons of history are often lost or eroded, changed to serve the dubious agendas of the next generation. Here is the value in Smith’s old books. The facts remain the same, no matter how inconvenient or embarrassing. The facts of history show that Uriah Smith supports Dr. Ford on a key point about the IJ, and so too Ellen White, and all the Pioneers. Neither Uriah Smith, nor Ellen or James White, nor Andrews, etc ever promoted the IJ as a pillar in any of the Three Angels Messages, much less the 1st. It never happened. Dr. Ford was correct all along. But because the leaders had used their media empire to brainwash the Adventist Community, it appeared otherwise.
The Takoma Park apologists, in their obsession to promote last generation perfectionism, deceived the church about the prophetic location and importance of the IJ. All they had to do was read Ellen White’s, or Uriah Smith’s, or JN Andrew’s views about the prophetic development of the Three Angels Messages to know the facts, but it served their legalistic purpose to make the IJ sacred and foundational, when it was neither.
Thus, in 1980, the Takoma Park leaders went to war over a myth of their own creation. The IJ was never the reason for the Advent Movement. It was never a foundational or sacred doctrine upon which the fate of the church rested. It is error, not truth. Glacier View was a sham. Those that defended the IJ, did so with fabricated and manipulated evidence from the Pioneers and the Bible. Neither Uriah Smith nor Ellen Would have approved of how the Takoma Park leaders twisted the doctrine of the IJ into a false position of importance, even claiming it was located in Rev 14: 7 when no Adventist pioneers ever took such a view.
Like other SDA reformers before him, Dr. Ford was correct to expose and repudiate SDA legalism in all forms. He exposed this outrageous fabrication that the IJ defines, explains, and legitimizes Adventism, and that it is prophetic or sacred. The IJ was not invented until 1857, long after the 1st and 2nd Angels Messages had terminated. So it would be impossible to try and pretend it was a pillar in 1844, when no one ever knew such a concept back then. Both Uriah Smith and Ellen White would agree that Glacier View was built on myths and false views of church history and theology.
It is time for the GC and White Estate to confess that they have been suppressing the great 1888 debate between Ellen White and Uriah Smith. They need to repent and correct the record so the Adventist Community can better understand the original theology of the Three Angels Messages, which does NOT contain the IJ in the 1st Angels Message. If this lesson is not soon learned, it may be forever too late.
Most SDA’s have only known the fraudulent version of the Three Angels Messages, that is, the one with the IJ in the 1st Angels Message. It is time for the Adventist Community to wake up and become familiar with the genuine eschatology that powers the Advent Movement. The counterfeit theology that is being promoted by the hierarchy is worthless nonsense and double-talk. It is leading the Advent Movement in the wrong direction.
The Advent Movement cannot go forward when they are so confused and wrong about church history and the definition of the Three Angels Messages. The Advent Movement is disintegrating in front of our eyes because the dishonest leaders no longer know what is truth and what is propaganda. Fortunately, the Pioneers have left us with a very large and detailed record. There is no excuse not to understand what has taken place. It is time for the facts to be treated with respect and honesty so that the modern Adventists today can learn the proper lessons from the past.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform and All Experts.Com
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Reply,
I appreciate the candidness with which my questions were addressed, the chronological quotes from various parties as to the contentions on the issue, and the promptness of Tom Norris' reply.
FYI: I shared the post on 5 'fundamental' SDA Facebook sites. Within 5 minutes of sharing, someone, somewhere reported the post to Facebook and I was halted in my sharing of it.
Here's hoping one day we can remove the bias and prejudice from our eyes and look at doctrine for the sake of understanding, instead of for the sake of self justification.
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