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Lori asked: So can someone tell me , if you don't believe in the Sabbath for today.... are we now suppose to commit murder, dishonor our parents, commit adultery ... and should I go on?
Tom said: Who said there is “no Sabbath for today?”
There is a weekly Sabbath for the Church. However, it is not Sunday, nor is it the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Jews or SDA’s where work is sinful on the 7th day. It is also not this absurdity called the Every Day Sabbath.
Moreover, while Jesus teaches that it is wrong to “murder,” and commit adultery, etc., even to think of such things, what he teaches about the Sabbath is binding on the church.
While it is wrong to even think about murder or adultery, it is not wrong to think about working on the Sabbath. Why? Because Jesus REFORMED and updated the 4th Commandment to reflect the Gospel. He made it an active day, not a resting one.
This means there is still a 7th day Sabbath doctrine for the church, but it is not like the OC Sabbath where work was sinful and wrong. What Christ teaches about the Sabbath is what we must follow today.
Lori said: On the other hand..... almost every SDAer I know believe in the OT sabbath and that they are the only ones going to heaven. AND it is to their salvation that they believe it... Yet their are many more that believe in the true sabbath that do not attend an SDA church
Lori from Lebanon, Pennsylvania.
Tom said: The SDA’s have embraced the WRONG doctrine of the Sabbath and so too has everyone else. They also have the wrong Gospel, which explains why they can’t understand the NC Sabbath.
Jesus teaches that his reformed and active view of the Sabbath is what identifies the true Shepherd. Those sheep that seek the genuine Christ will make sure they are following the true Shepherd.
Lori said: I think that having an understanding of the weekly Sabbath rest helps us to understand the resting in His grace for salvation. Sweet.
Tom replied: All Christians should have a clear understanding about Jesus’ New Covenant, 7th day Sabbath. This unique doctrine is a marker of the genuine Christ. It shows who is paying attention to Jesus and who is just following the confused and unsaved crowd.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for the New Covenant, 7th day Sabbath of Christ
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Lori said:
So can someone tell me , if you don't believe in the Sabbath for today.... are we now suppose to commit murder, dishonor our parents, commit adultery ... and should I go on?
On the other hand..... almost every SDAer I know believe in the OT sabbath and that they are the only ones going to heaven. AND it is to their salvation that they believe it... Yet their are many more that believe in the true sabbath that do not attend an SDA church
Lori from Lebanon, Pennsylvania
Lori, I would direct you to my book review of New Covenant Theology that is coming into it's own as a topic of discussion among those reading the New Testament/New Covenant. The following text cries out for understanding for the modern day Christian.
Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
My review is at: http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1180
If you have any questions as the study progresses, I would be glad to help. There is a chapter coming on the Sabbath and how it is handled in the New Covenant. I will get into when the ground is laid properly with the rest of the book. Thanks for jumping in to ATomorrow.net. Welcome, although it seems like I have seen your moniker previously.
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Bob 2 said: Lori, I would direct you to my book review of New Covenant Theology that is coming into it's own as a topic of discussion among those reading the New Testament/New Covenant.
Tom replied: NCT has already been exposed as nonsense and double-talk on this site for all to see. This book review thread will be no exception.
NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
The No Day/Every Day doctrine of the Sabbath is utter nonsense and religious fiction.
The bottom line of this theology is to remove and abolish the Sabbath, either on the 7th day version or Sunday. This is the mission and goal of this confused and dishonest movement. Which is why so many angry, former SDA’s, have embraced it. They view it as the answer to the legalistic doctrine of the Sabbath that they now (correctly) reject.
NCT promotes the wrong Sabbath doctrine. It is no solution whatsoever. It is just more false doctrine, piled high on a mountain of false doctrines. It is doctrine for the blind, and those that follow the blind.
Luke 6:39 “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
Bob 2 said: The following text cries out for understanding for the modern day Christian. Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Tom said: Ha! What you mean to say is that NCT “cries out” that the Sabbath is obsolete, outdated, and needs to disappear. NCT teaches that the “modern day Christian” should remove the weekly Lord’s Day from the church.
However, this is not what Jesus or the apostles teach, but what Zaspel and Wells are promoting. While they are correct to state that neither the Sunday keepers nor the SDA’s have a correct doctrine of the Sabbath, what they propose is just as wrong and absurd.
The church has been correct all these years to have embraced a weekly Lord’s Day, even if they had the wrong day and the wrong view of this doctrine. The modern church is correct to try and practice a weekly Lord’s day, which doctrine has never become obsolete, much less abolished by Christ, the Lord and Defender of the Gospel Sabbath.
Let all understand the point behind NCT. It is not to follow the Sabbath teachings of Christ, but to remove the doctrine of the weekly Sabbath from the Church. Period. This is the point of everything they teach.
Such anti-Christ, anti-Gospel views should not be embraced by anyone that seeks Eternal Life from Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath. Those that are ashamed of what Christ teaches about his active and reformed 7th day Sabbath doctrine will be lost in the Day of Judgment. So too those who embrace a false Christ and false Gospel.
Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Bob 2 said to Lori: If you have any questions as the study progresses, I would be glad to help.
Tom replied: Me too! I will be happy to explain why the No Day/Every Day Sabbath is absurd and impossible doctrine. I will clearly refute every point and prove to any with a working brain that NCT is utter nonsense.
Bob 2 said: There is a chapter coming on the Sabbath and how it is handled in the New Covenant. I will get into when the ground is laid properly with the rest of the book.
Tom said: Why has it taken so long to get to the bottom line of this book, which is all about the doctrine of the Sabbath?
Answer: To brainwash the unsuspecting into believing what is not true. To set things up, and pretend there is some honest theology being proposed when that is not the case.
7th Day Sabbath Reform
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … bath-1.htm
Let all beware the so-called NCT crowd, with their No Day/Every Day Sabbath that they themselves do not follow. Those who embrace this No Day/Every Day Sabbath meet on Sunday, every Sunday, showing themselves to be great hypocrites as well as blasphemers promoting false Gospel doctrine.
They do not understand the Gospel Story, even as they boldly ignore and refute Christ’s specific and repeated teachings about the 7th day in all four Gospels. Then they pretend that the apostles support their No- Sabbath/Every Day Sabbath view and that Christ has little to say on the topic.
Let all beware the double-talk of NCT. It is anti-Christ and anti-Gospel, as well as anti- Sabbath. Such theology is for the angry, trite, and foolish, - not for those that follow the genuine Christ of the NT.
Matt. 11:15 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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“Best Case” for the Sabbath:
Here is an interesting question about the NC Sabbath that is being promoted by Adventist Reform. It was not asked of me, but of a hostile, non-SDA critic at All Experts.
Both the question and the answer are revealing. It seems that 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ is the “best” doctrine to solve the Sabbath debate. The more people study and understand this new doctrine, the more solid and true it becomes.
Why? Because it is true doctrine for the last church.
Let all that seek for truth, do so.
Matt. 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
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Hello Sal:
I have written to you in the past because I believe you offer answers with strong scripture back up as opposed to what may seem to me as just opinions of many others.
With that being said, I do not wish to discuss the Gospel Sabbath with Tom Norris because all he says in the answers I have reviewed is that Jesus taught a different style of Sabbath keeping.
While I do see how Jesus explained what the Pharisees were doing wrong, I also see a comment about tithing which according to Tom Norris' analysis we should also tithe as Jesus told they Pharisees they should tithe while also giving weight to other matters. Mat. 23:23
Here is my question.
If Tom Norris is correct, where exactly is this found in the bible?
Jesus mentions he gave us 2 commandments of 1.love to God and 2.love to our neighbors and he said on these 2 hang all the law and the prophets.
I also do not necessarily see how we should keep that Gospel Sabbath since I really do not understand what Tom said regarding that other than it is ok to work.
So what is supposed to be so special about the New Covenant Sabbath?
Is this just a new way for Adventists to save face with at least a portion of their doctrine?
I don't want to swing with each little twist in doctrine, as it is hard to become grounded that way.
I like to read and test but there are a whole bunch of opinions about the Sabbath and in actuality Tom Norris has the best case, but I still think he is wrong about this.
Any help would be appreciated.
Charles
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Sal, who has previously endorsed the NC Sabbath of Christ, once again stands up for and defends the NC Sabbath of Christ. Good for Sal!
New Covenant Theology
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … eology.htm
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Sal answered:
Dear Brother Charles:
As I understand it the difference between the Gospel or Reformed Sabbath and the Old Covenant Sabbath promoted by SDAism is the difference between freedom and slavery.
The SDA Church promotes the legalistic Sabbath of the Jews.
The Gospel Sabbath is one of great joy free from legalism.
The many Sabbath restrictions of the Pharisees of old and the SDAs of today were removed once and for all by Jesus.
The Old Covenant Sabbath keepers prohibit work on the Sabbath, but Jesus said that the Father and he work on the Sabbath thus work is allowed on the Gospel Sabbath. "For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
But He answered them, 'My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working'" (John 5:16-17 NASB).
Paul taught the exact opposite of SDAs when he said that no one should judge the actions of a fellow Christian on the Sabbath. "Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ" (Colossians 2:16-17 NASB).
Yet Old Covenant Sabbath keepers routinely judge what other Christians do or don't do on the Sabbath.
SDAs have made the Sabbath a god. The SDA hierarchy tells it members that they must be willing to die for the Sabbath. The SDAs are very confused on this. It's the Gospel that we are to die for not the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Jews!
You wonder how does one "keep" the Gospel Sabbath?
That is the wrong attitude to have.
You sound like a Jew or SDA afraid that he will violate one of the many Sabbath rules he has learned.
The Gospel Sabbath is free from such unholy legalism. You should be filled with great joy and love for God and man. Do good for others. Meet with fellow Christians. Preach the gospel.
Thanks for the question.
God Bless,
Brother Sal
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l_miller, I trust this post will be left to respond to your question and not removed by Tom Norris. If you study the Old and New Covenant, they have different tenets. It shows a progression in God's Law. Isn't Christ example of how to be a Christian more accurate than Moses or the Mosaic Law in it's totality. Note this passage:
Matt 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
and
John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
If you read Genesis 2:1-3, God rested but according to this verse, God has always been at His work and Jesus too. Tom Norris claims that the Sabbath was just as important a reason as Jesus claiming to be equal with God.
The answer to the Sabbath question lies in Col 2:16-17. And since the Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ:
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier [circumcision and the Sabbath, things Gentiles did not keep], the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Last edited by bob_2 (11-26-13 2:44 am)
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Bob, you need to stop asking the wrong Sabbath questions. This is how you end up with the wrong answers.
Bob 2 said: The answer to the Sabbath question lies in Col 2:16-17. And since the Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ:
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier [circumcision and the Sabbath, things Gentiles did not keep], the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Tom replied: How do you define the Sabbath question? What exactly is the right question to ask about the Sabbath?
For SDA’s, it’s all about Sunday versus the 7th day. THIS was the only question that mattered; which day?
Today, there is a much better question. Do you know what it is?
Here it is:
What does Jesus teach about the NC Sabbath in the Gospels?
This is a much better Sabbath question that covers the issues about which day, if any, as well as this question whether Christ fulfilled the Sabbath, and then spiritualized it away, or changed it from a non working to a working doctrine. In other words, this question covers all the bases.
Let all understand that Jesus does not teach that he fulfilled the Sabbath.
Sorry. I know you and some others have an obsession about this convenient myth, but that is too bad, because there is no basis in either the OT or the NT for such a view, which has never been embraced by the church at any time in its long history.
Jesus has much to say and teach about the 7th day Sabbath, and none of it has anything to do with him fulfilling it, much less changing it into a 24/7 spiritual head trip for those that meet on Sunday.
So you are going to have to face the facts at some point. What you promote and defend is not found in the Gospels, nor does Jesus in any way support such false doctrine. NCT is garbage. It is as bad as the IJ or the Secret Rapture. It is very false, anti-Christ doctrine.
While Jesus is our peace, righteousness, and Eternal Life; he is not the symbol or the fulfillment of either the OC or NC Sabbath. Rather, the Sabbath doctrine is forever anchored to the Creation Story of planet Earth. And so it will forever be.
In conclusion, those that seek answers, must ask the right questions. Ask the wrong question, and the answer will not matter.
For those that honestly seek Gospel Truth, they must ask the right questions, and seek the right answers. This is the Way that leads to Eternal Life.
Matt. 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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Tom, there is nothing that mandates a holy day for every covenant. For you to suggest that Jesus and God worked on the Sabbath in the same since man should work on the Sabbath is absurd. Jesus and God worked on salvific issues but put it that way because the Pharisees wouldn't be able to discern what He was saying in John 5: 17. For you to suggest this is a reformed Sabbath, is not substantiated. He was talking in the past tense. The Ten Commandments were given to a unique people and the day was a rest day for an overworked people, the Jews. Here is why he gave it as a rest day, a people that that God created (Exodus 20:11; Deut 5: 3, 6,15.) and God and Jesus were working all this time, and God uniquely rescued them from Egypt. That isn't the way SDAs teach it, that God is always working, even when total inactivity was required of the Jews in the desert. Come on Tom, your logic is better than that, I think. This is not a new tenet of a New Covenant. Jesus is our Rest as taught by Him and the Apostles. (Matt 11: 28-30; Col 2:16-17) There is no holy day in the New Covenant, but there is a Savior that gives Peace and Rest with forgiveness. Remember on debatable issues like the day to congregate for worship,
Romans 14:5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
Last edited by bob_2 (12-15-13 10:13 pm)
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Bob 2 said: Tom, there is nothing that mandates a holy day for every covenant.
Tom said: Wrong! The history of Judaism and the NC teachings of Christ “mandate” a 7th day Sabbath in both Covenants. You should know Jesus is the self-proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath, he claims ownership and protection of this Jewish creation doctrine.
If the SDA’s were correct about anything, it was the fact that Sunday has zero support from the Bible. Those who claim that Jesus changed the 7th day to Sunday have no basis in the Bible to make such an obviously false claim. Good for them to stand up and tell the Gospel Truth about this point! Someone had to do it.
However, there is more to understanding the Sabbath doctrine than just which day is correct. The SDA’s are acting like children to think otherwise and their lack of deep thinking on this topic, combined with a refusal to allow Gospel Reform and freedom of speech, has been their ruin.
Bob, you are a child of the SDA’s and you need to stop thinking the way you have been taught. Much of it was wrong.
The Creation Story, and the God of Creation, are fundamental to both the OC and the NC. Nothing in either Covenant repudiates or changes the Creation Story, which means the 7th day will always be part of either Covenant.
Is. 66:22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the LORD,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
Is. 66:23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the LORD.
Both Judaism and the Christian Faith embrace the Genesis Creation story, with the latter also teaching that Christ took part in the creation of the world and the creation of the 7th day Sabbath as part of the first creation week.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 1He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
The creation story explains why Jesus is so protective of the 7th day Sabbath; he made it, along with the world, long before the OC existed. Such a fundamental theological fact was never to be forgotten and thus the 7th day is forever linked to the true creator, in both the OC and the NC, long before the 4th Commandment came into existence for the Jews.
The 7th day is a sign of the Jewish God. And so too of the Messiah, who was also a Jew, and who proclaimed himself to be, among other things, the Lord of the 7th day Sabbath. This is more profound than many understand. The OC and the NC are 100% Jewish, and thus there must be a 7th day Sabbath in each era, linking everything back to the beginning of the Jewish creation story.
The Gospel and the church is a Jewish paradigm, not a Gentile one. Which is why the day could never be changed to Sunday or Every Day. Such a change in doctrine would undo and repudiate the Creation Story.
The 7th day is also a sign of the Messiah; he is shown in the Gospels as being the true Shepherd because of his unique view of the NC Sabbath. See John 9 & 10.
Those today that want to follow the genuine Christ, must only follow the Jesus with the correct 7th day Sabbath. All others are false.
I repeat: While the Torah starts off with Genesis, which includes the 7th day Sabbath as part of creation, it predates the Old Covenant by many long years. Thus, the original Sabbath doctrine was not Old Covenant at all. The SDA’s are very wrong to be so confused on this point. There was a generic Sabbath doctrine long before the legalistic, OC version came into existence.
Judaism featured the 4th Commandment, which was a temporary, punitive, and legalistic view of how to observe the original Sabbath. Paul calls this type of Sabbath the “schoolmaster” or Tutor Sabbath. It was temporary, - until the Gospel was preached by Christ.
When Christ came to earth, he taught the New Covenant, which included a different view of how to observe the 7th day from what Moses taught under the OC. The fact that Jesus was also the Creator of the world and of the first Sabbath doctrine, underscores why the Sabbath was so important to him.
7th Day NOT Holy in NC
However, the NC Sabbath is NOT a “holy day.” There are no “holy days” in the NC, only “holy people.” This is another point where the SDA’s are wrong. The NC Sabbath does not view the 7th day as holy, like the OC. This is one reason why work is allowed on the NC Sabbath. The 7th day is not holy in the NC. Work is allowed.
Bob 2 said: For you to suggest that Jesus and God worked on the Sabbath is the same since man should work on the Sabbath is absurd.
Tom said: First, you sound like the Pharisees! They too thought Jesus view of the NC Sabbath was “absurd.” It made no sense to them either. Thus you have sided with the crowd that hates the Gospel Sabbath.
Second, I am not “suggesting” anything. It is Jesus who made this point about God working on the Sabbath, and thus he, and his followers, would also work. This is the teaching of Jesus, not Tom Norris.
So you need not argue with me, but with Jesus and with the Gospels. He is the one that turned Judaism upside down with his strange views about the NC Sabbath, the Priesthood, and the Temple, which few understand or embrace even to this day.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
John 14:12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.
John 15:24 “If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.
John 5:20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.
John 5:36 “But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish — the very works that I do — testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.
Jesus declares that his Sabbath works prove that God sent him to earth. But the Jews would not believe. They were obsessed with the OC and the law. The Gospel was unknown and unwanted.
Let all pay attention: There is no such thing as a “resting,” non working, Sabbath in the NC. Jesus did many great works on the Sabbath to prove this point. Just as God the Father instructed him. To deny this is to deny God, Christ, and salvation.
When the Gospel is correctly and fully understood, so too the NC, 7th day doctrine of the Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: Jesus and God worked on salvific issues, but put it that way because the Pharisees wouldn't be able to discern what He was saying in John 5: 17. For you to suggest this is a reformed Sabbath, is not substantiated. He was talking in the past tense as always.
Tom said: Healers had no right to break the law. Nor did any physician have the right to give treatments to anyone on the Sabbath, much less teach others to break the 4th Commandment. Jesus does not deny this fact.
Rather, Jesus was making a theological point by breaking the law in such a public and dramatic manner. He was teaching new doctrines that were not understood or appreciated by the leaders.
Moreover, Jesus was not playing word games with the Pharisees about the Sabbath. Nor was he trying to hide his new views about the Sabbath. No. The Gospels are full of Jesus debating with the Pharisees, and in that process and context, clearly articulating his views about the Sabbath, starting with the point that it was made for all mankind.
Jesus teaches point after point about the NC Sabbath and thus there is no excuse for anyone today, to get this so wrong. But yet, this is what has happened to everyone in Laodicea, including the SDA’s, who claimed to be the experts about this controversial doctrine.
Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath caught the Jews by surprise. It stunned both the people and their religious leaders. Unlike you, they understood this was a very different doctrine from OC Judaism, one that was divisive and problematic. In fact, it was so shocking, it sent Jesus to the cross.
Jesus teaches that God loves good works, even on the Sabbath. He too works on the Sabbath, keeping the world and the church under his care and control. Those that follow the genuine Christ, are to be active, even on the 7th day, not resting. The Lord’s Day is not about resting, but activity.
Matt. 5:16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 9:37 Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.
Matt. 9:38 “Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest.”
John 10:32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
Eph. 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
1Tim. 6:18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
Jesus teaches that God is always active. God must keep his creation, the earth, working, 24/7, with all that entails, which is a lot. Neither God nor his Christ rests on the 7th day, and neither do those that follow the genuine Christ of the Gospels.
Matt. 5:44 “But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Matt. 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
The Earth does not stop spinning, nor does the Sun stop shining on the 7th day, proving that God is at work on every Sabbath, and has been so since the very creation.
Thus God does not take a holiday on the 7th day. He is working on every single Sabbath, and so too should those that follow him. Jesus is teaching a new doctrine of the Sabbath, even claiming that God, his father, also agrees with this new theology.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
Bob 2 said: The Ten Commandments were given to a unique people and the day was a rest day for an overworked people, the Jews.
Tom said: The Creation Story and the creation of the 7th day Sabbath pre-dates the OC Jews and the 10 C’s. Which is what Jesus is saying when he teaches that the Sabbath was made for all mankind.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Thus the Sabbath is first and foremost a memorial to the God of Creation, even as it is the anchor that creates a 7-day weekly cycle for civilization that stands to this very time.
The Sabbath doctrine existed before the OC, which means that the OC doctrine is not the original Sabbath. The OC Sabbath of the 4th Commandment was temporary. Scheduled to be replaced by the NC Sabbath in the 1st century.
Bob 2 said: Here is why he gave it as a rest day, a people that that God created (Exodus 20:11; Deut 5: 3, 6,15.) and God and Jesus were working all this time, and God uniquely rescued them from Egypt.
Tom said: First off, unless you are a Jew, you never were given any Sabbath. It was only to the Jews that the OC Sabbath was given.
Second, the Levites were never given the Sabbath Day off. They had to work every 7th day. Even in the desert.
Third: Gentile believers were never given any instruction about a resting Sabbath where work was forbidden, because there was no such doctrine in the church, with the exception of the evil Jewish Judiazers that also wanted circumcision.
Pay attention: The Sabbath doctrine is about the Creation Story. This fundamental fact will never change.
While the OC Sabbath contains forced rest, the NC does not, and neither did the doctrine of the Sabbath before the OC. Being raised SDA, you are very confused about the Two Covenants, and NCT is only making things worse for you.
Bob 2 said: That isn't the way SDAs teach it, - that God is always working, even when total inactivity was required of the Jews in the desert.
Tom said: The SDA’s teach that God and Jesus rest every 7th day, and so too must we. They teach that the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment is still binding on the church today. Thus they would be horrified if they knew that the genuine Christ does not teach such a point. They are wrong, wrong, wrong.
In fact, Jesus teaches that God does NOT rest on the Sabbath, even as he also refused to obey the 4th Commandment to underscore this point.
How can the SDA’s be so blind about the Sabbath?
How could the Jews?
How can the entire Laodicean Church?
The SDA’s are following a false Gospel, Christ, and Sabbath, for which they must repent.
Bob 2 said: Come on Tom, your logic is better than that, I think.
Tom said: Here is my “logic.” Those that follow Christ must also understand and embrace his Gospel teachings about the 7th day Sabbath. Whatever Christ teaches, this is doctrine for the church. Period!
Bob 2 said: This is not a new tenet of a New Covenant.
Tom replied: The NC Sabbath is an important and foundational doctrine for the church. It is also a test to see who is following the genuine Shepherd and who is following a fraud. The Good Shepherd motif is part of the Sabbath debates that Jesus had with the Pharisees.
Here Jesus teaches that those who reject his active and free, NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, are the equivalent of thieves and robbers who only want to steal and kill the sheep.
Jesus also teaches that those who really know him, will follow his working Sabbath, even though the religious leaders protest and plot against Christ.
John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
Bob 2 said: Jesus is our Rest as taught by Him and the Apostles. (Matt 11: 28-30; Col 2:16-17) There is no holy day in the New Covenant, but there is a Savior that gives Peace and Rest with forgiveness.
Tom replied: You have failed the test. Follow the wrong shepherd, and you are a lost sheep.
Jesus does not teach a “resting” Sabbath, or a holy day Sabbath, and neither do the apostles.
Your Christ is a fraud, you have been duped, - again. Sorry. You are a dead sheep walking away from Eternal Life. When advised that you need to find a better shepherd, you protest and defend the hired hands that are leading you to destruction.
John 10:12 “He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.
John 10:13 “He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep.
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
Those who truly believe in Christ for Eternal Life, will understand and embrace his active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath. Those who don’t know him, will not.
Bob 2 said: Remember on debatable issues like the day to congregate for worship:
Romans 14:5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
Tom said: The Gospel is not up for debate and neither is the NC Sabbath of Christ. Jesus teaches what he teaches for all to see. How we re-act seals our fate.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
This idea that we can select any version of the Sabbath, or repudiate what Christ teaches is delusional.
Jesus leaves no doubt about which day is the Sabbath for the church, much less how the 7th day is to be understood and observed. The problem is that the Jews hated his views, and so too most in the church today. Why? Because they are phony Christians following a false Christ and a worthless religion.
When the Gospel is correctly understood, so too the NC doctrine of the Sabbath.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, unless
1. you realize that Sabbath was never mentioned in the Bible until Exodus 16
2. that the Mosaic Law, the Decalogue was THE Old Covenant Exodus 34:28
3. the Sabbath was given to a physically overworked people, marked by God creating the group, but the subset is further identified by Deut 5: 3,15, making them a unique people. Not even you or I can claim to be under that law. Christ could because he was born a Jew under this law.
4. that the New Covenant, God's kingdom did not start until Jesus death. At that point all of the OT/OC was fulfilled or completed. Jesus declares it so in Luke 24:25,26, 27, 45 - 49. And, He said the Holy Spirit would be sent to lead them into all Truth. John 16:12 - 15. Truth that he did not have the time to tell them nor could they bear it. You diminish Paul abut the promise of the Holy Spirit. There was detail and things shown to Paul that none of the other disciple saw, in visions from Jesus, while in the Arabian Desert for three years after his Damascus road conversion. Gal 1: 15 -18. I rarely see you quote from Paul's writings while referring to comments by Jesus that applied to the OC He was born under and had to keep perfectly. But changes happened at the cross, the saving blood was shed that made the New Covenant life saving, sin forgiving, and everlasting. The OC was not everlasting, nor the Decalogue at the heart of the OC.
5. that God's Law or Christ's Law is what the NC Christian is to use as their guide in behavior. All Christ's statements on earth that He stated applying to the anticipation of the New Covenant and the directives inspired by the Holy Spirit uttered by the writing Apostles.
If you do not see all that, you are way behind on the basis of Truth in the New Covenant and issues like the Sabbath.
Last edited by bob_2 (12-20-13 2:04 pm)
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Bob 2 said: Tom, unless 1. you realize that Sabbath was never mentioned in the Bible until Exodus 16.
Tom said: Such a point is irrelevant and silly. The Jews have always and forever determined that the Genesis Story made the 7th day a special weekly Sabbath for the Jews. While some Gentiles play word games in order to attack the Sabbath, the Jews are the ones that best understand their own Creation Story.
The Gentiles have no right to dishonestly change history and pretend the Jews did not teach what they did about the 7th day. The Sabbath is forever linked to the Jewish Creation Story in Genesis, and this theological and historical fact will never change.
Gen. 2:2 By the seventh day God completed His work, which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work, which He had done.
Gen. 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work, which God had created and made.
Second: Jesus, Jew, also takes this view. He too views the Creation Story as the basis for the Sabbath.
Mark 10:6 “But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
Mark 13:19 “For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
There can be no removal of the 7th day Sabbath from either the OC or the NC. Sorry. The Gospel is a Jewish paradigm, which is anchored by the Creation Story of Genesis.
Bob 2 said: 2. that the Mosaic Law, the Decalogue was THE Old Covenant Exodus 34:28.
Tom said: Agreed. Judaism, which includes all their laws, is an OC paradigm. The SDA’s are very wrong to think that the Moral law was not part of the OC. Uriah Smith was an awful theologian and a great legalist. No one should follow his false views.
Bob 2 said: 3. the Sabbath was given to a physically overworked people, marked by God creating the group, but the subset is further identified by Deut 5: 3,15, making them a unique people. Not even you or I can claim to be under that law. Christ could because he was born a Jew under this law.
Tom said: You overlook the fact that the Sabbath existed before any Jews existed or were enslaved. This point cannot be refuted. Thus the original Sabbath was part of the creation of the earth, for all mankind. But this original doctrine did not contain a law against working on the 7th day. That OC rule came later, even as it was temporary.
No Christian is under the OC law, including the law of the 4th Commandment. All Christians are under the law and teachings of Christ, including what he teaches about the 7th day.
Bob 2 said: 4. that the New Covenant, God's kingdom did not start until Jesus death.
Tom said: Wrong. The cross is where the NC was inaugurated. But the Gospel started with the birth of Christ. This is why there was “great joy” for those on earth. Not because the Law had arrived, but because the Gospel had come to earth to save mankind, both Jew and Gentile.
Luke 2:8 In the same region there were some shepherds staying out in the fields and keeping watch over their flock by night.
Luke 2:9 And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened.
Luke 2:10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;
Luke 2:11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
The Gospel became public with the ministry of Christ, which ended with his death. Jesus taught the NC Gospel before his death on the cross. His Gospel words are found in the four Gospels. Deny this, and you deny Christ and his Word.
Bob 2 said: At that point all of the OT/OC was fulfilled or completed. Jesus declares it so in Luke 24:25,26, 27, 45 - 49. And, He said the Holy Spirit would be sent to lead them into all Truth. John 16:12 - 15. Truth that he did not have the time to tell them nor could they bear it.
Tom said: This is funny! So Jesus “did not have enough time” to explain the Sabbath doctrine to his apostles? He was too busy to get around to this doctrine, so others would do it for him after the resurrection?
Wow! What an awful position to take. As if the Gospels are not full of Jesus’ active and reformed 7th day Sabbath teaching? As if Jesus has little to say about the Sabbath?
Wow! Then to cover up for Christ’s omission and poor time management, the Holy Spirit had to teach Paul the NC Sabbath doctrine?
Really? Is Paul the Lord of the Sabbath? No. Has he spoken in detail about the Sabbath? No. So why pretend he is the primary source to understand the NC doctrine of the Sabbath? Christ, the self-proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath, completed this task for all to see in the Gospels.
This is what is so annoying with the NCT crowd; they refuse to repent of their fundamental myth that Jesus failed to teach a NC 7th day doctrine of the Sabbath for the church. They are blind by choice, just like the Jews who also refused to understand Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: You diminish Paul about the promise of the Holy Spirit. There was detail and things shown to Paul that none of the other disciple saw, in visions from Jesus, while in the Arabian Desert for three years after his Damascus road conversion.
Tom said: You diminish Christ and repudiate his claim to be the Lord and protector of the Sabbath doctrine. You ignore the many passages in the Gospels where Christ teaches his unique and reformed 7th day Sabbath. Why? So you can run to a few cryptic passages from Paul that sound better to your ears?
Your hermeneutical fraud has been exposed for all to see. NCT is built on a very dishonest myth that will not stand. The Gospels are full of Jesus teaching about the Sabbath. Only a blind and stubborn person could miss all this information in the NT.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Those who hear the Gospel Sabbath and refuse to embrace it are not only blind, their “sin remains” and thus they are doomed. The Gospel is of no benefit to those who are so blatantly anti-Christ.
Bob 2 said: I rarely see you quote from Paul's writings while referring to comments by Jesus that applied to the OC He was born under and had to keep perfectly.
Tom said: Jesus is the primary source for all Gospel instruction as well as for Eternal Life.
Moreover, when it comes to the doctrine of the Sabbath, Jesus claims ownership over this doctrine that he made when he created the world.
Paul is not God, but Jesus is. Paul made nothing, much less the world or the doctrine of the Sabbath, which was part of the original creation story. It was Jesus that changed the OC Sabbath into a NC version, of which Paul embraces. It is Jesus that teaches us how to understand and observe the NC Sabbath. Ignore him at your own peril.
All that want to understand the NC Sabbath, must go to Christ in the Gospels and learn from him. Do not start with Moses, Paul, or James, but with Jesus. Once you understand what he teaches, then move on to see what others have to say. They may be right or wrong. But whatever Jesus teaches is correct forever, regardless who says otherwise.
Bob 2 said: But changes happened at the cross, the saving blood was shed that made the New Covenant life saving, sin forgiving, and everlasting. The OC was not everlasting, nor the Decalogue at the heart of the OC.
Tom said: Christ taught The Gospel Sabbath to the apostles prior to the cross. This information is in all four Gospels. Stop pretending it does not exist just because you don’t like what it says. Jesus teaches what he teaches about the Sabbath. We either embrace it or follow him or we don’t. We are not to argue with Christ, or try to correct him, but follow him.
Bob 2 said: 5. that God's Law or Christ's Law is what the NC Christian is to use as their guide in behavior.
Tom said: “God’s Law” is not a reference to the “law of Christ.” Rather, it refers to OC Judaism, not the Gospel teachings of Christ.
Josh. 24:26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.
Neh. 8:8 They read from the book, from the law of God, translating to give the sense so that they understood the reading.
Neh. 10:29 are joining with their kinsmen, their nobles, and are taking on themselves a curse and an oath to walk in God’s law, which was given through Moses, God’s servant, and to keep and to observe all the commandments of GOD our Lord, and His ordinances and His statutes;
Rom. 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
The “law of Christ” is not OC Judaism or the 10 Commandments; it is the sayings, teachings, and commandments of Christ. This Gospel law includes what Jesus teaches about all 10 Commandments, even about the 4th, which he reformed to fit the NC change in the Priesthood.
Gal. 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
Bob 2 said: All Christ's statements on earth that He stated applying to the anticipation of the New Covenant and the directives inspired by the Holy Spirit uttered by the writing Apostles. If you do not see all that, you are way behind on the basis of Truth in the New Covenant and issues like the Sabbath.
Tom said: Stop the double-talk. What Jesus teaches in the Gospels, - is NC doctrine for the church, including his strong and repeated views about the 7th day Sabbath.
Why are you running away from Christ? He is the head theologian of the church. No one else comes close, not Moses or even Paul.
All that fail to understand the active and reformed Sabbath of Christ, as taught in the Gospels by Christ, are blind and lost. They need to be healed of their blindness, by Christ, before they can see.
Those who pretend they have a better Sabbath doctrine than Christ, and that they are wiser then him, will remain in the dark, even though they claim to be children of the light.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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Tom said: Such a point is irrelevant and silly. The Jews have always and forever determined that the Genesis Story made the 7th day a special weekly Sabbath for the Jews. While some Gentiles play word games in order to attack the Sabbath, the Jews are the ones that best understand their own Creation Story.
Deut 5 further identifies the subset of who was "under the law".
Tom said: You overlook the fact that the Sabbath existed before any Jews existed or were enslaved. This point cannot be refuted. Thus the original Sabbath was part of the creation of the earth, for all mankind. But this original doctrine did not contain a law against working on the 7th day. That OC rule came later, even as it was temporary.
Prove it with texts and I may be right there with you. There is has been an exodus of ministers over this point that has no anchor in scripture. You know it and I know it. Gen 2:1-3 mentions nothing of the Sabbath and
John 5:6 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
clarifies the word work for God and Jesus. God does not need to rest but he did cease his creative work, complete His creation, but, sorry, no morning and evening for the seventh day. God sanctified the seventh day for a unique or particular use, which he did with the Jews, but you have no proof that Adam to Moses the Sabbath was kept.
Tom said:
No Christian is under the OC law, including the law of the 4th Commandment. All Christians are under the law and teachings of Christ, including what he teaches about the 7th day.
What does He teach about the Sabbath that brings it into the New Covenant? Show us the texts. Because Jesus offered doves for sacrifice, should we, because He kept Passover, should we. Because He kept all the Jewish Festivals are we obligated to follow His example. Christ says nothing of anticipating the Sabbath in the New Covenant, His Kingdom. There was a lot discussed but more that Jesus wished to tell the disciples that He left for the Holy Spirit's work.
John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Your speculation can not be backed up with scripture. Christ kept the Sabbath and tried to strip away man made add-ons because he was born under the law (Old Covenant). But no where does He obsess over like you and make it a salvific issue.
Romans 14:Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.
This hardly sounds like a carry over from Old to New Covenant.
Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
The Sabbath Rest was fulfilled in Christ's flesh. Read all of Eph 2. Also, Col 2:16, 17. Don't do the SDA ceremonial/ moral split. It isn't biblical.
Last edited by bob_2 (12-22-13 2:11 pm)
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Bob, we are not playing ping-pong. I make a point; and then you deny it and hit it back, and so forth. Let’s not debate for the sake of it. When I give you a fact, you don’t get to question what is so clear and obvious, as if this were, a “he said,” “she said,” debate of useless opinions. Now you are trying to pretend there was no Sabbath made during the Creation Story. The history of the Jews is not up for debate and neither is what they teach in the Torah about the Sabbath being part of creation.
I have no desire to have an ongoing debate with delusional people who have no baseline of reality. This is typical of how SDA’s think. When confronted with facts that prove them wrong, they always question and doubt the facts, working hard to change or discredit them so that their false doctrines can stand tall. Sad. This is no way to find truth, much less Eternal Life.
Tom said: Such a point is irrelevant and silly. The Jews have always and forever determined that the Genesis Story made the 7th day a special weekly Sabbath. While some Gentiles play word games in order to attack the Sabbath, the Jews are the ones that best understand their own Creation Story.
Bob 2 said: Deut 5 further identifies the subset of who was "under the law".
Tom said: Bob. Having a discussion with you is pointless. There can be no denial of the origin of the Sabbath. It is forever associated with the creation of the world in the Jewish Bible. How can you not know this? Ask any Jew. You overlook the fact that the Sabbath existed before any Jews existed or were enslaved. This point cannot be refuted. Thus the original Sabbath was part of the creation of the earth, for all mankind. But this original doctrine did not contain any law against working on the 7th day. That OC Law came later, even as it was temporary, to be replaced by the NC Sabbath in the 1st century, as per the “Law of Christ.”
Bob 2 said: Prove it with texts and I may be right there with you.
Tom replied: Read Genesis. Start from the beginning and you can’t miss the origin of the Sabbath. Read Jewish scholars and learn from them, after all, it is their history, not yours. Of course Christian scholars also agree. At least those with a working brain.
Bob 2 said: There has been an exodus of ministers over this point that has no anchor in scripture. You know it and I know it. Gen 2:1-3 mentions nothing of the Sabbath…
Tom replied: You poor man. Don’t you understand that the 7th day is the origin of, and a synonym for, the Sabbath? The text does not have to say the word Sabbath, as it is the 7th day that is being set apart because of God’s resting from creation. The word rest means Sabbath. So it’s all there, especially the point about the 7th day.
As for the confused clergy, they are blind men. Who cares what they say? In the Gospel Story, the religious leaders were the bad guys. The same goes for today. Those who claim to teach the Gospel don’t know what it is anymore than did the Jews that rejected Christ. Do not follow blind men, they are in the dark.
Bob 2 said: God does not need to rest, but he did cease his creative work, complete His creation, but, sorry, no morning and evening for the seventh day.
Tom said: I have no idea what you are saying and neither do you. Of course the 7th day had an evening and morning, just like all the other days. What is the matter with you to say such things? Every 7th day on planet earth has an evening and morning, just like the other six days.
Bob 2 said: God sanctified the seventh day for a unique or particular use, which he did with the Jews, but you have no proof that Adam to Moses the Sabbath was kept.
Tom said: The 7th day was made special long before there a Jew. So your point makes no sense. The only point that has to be proved is this: that the Jewish God created the 7th day Sabbath as part of the Creation Story. Such a point is self-evident for anyone that reads the first book of the Torah, Genesis.
Did Adam observe the Sabbath? Of course. It was his first full day of life. However, he was perfect, and thus he had no need for the OC Sabbath law, which was for slaves and sinners. So Adam enjoyed the NC version of the Sabbath, - that is, - a day of freedom and innocence, with no rules against lighting fires or cooking, or doing any activity.
The OC Sabbath law would not be invented for many years in the future.
Gal. 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
Tom said: No Christian is under the OC law, including the law of the 4th Commandment. All Christians are under the law and teachings of Christ, including what he teaches about the 7th day.
Bob 2 said: What does He teach about the Sabbath that brings it into the New Covenant? Show us the texts.
Tom said: Plenty, starting with Jesus declaration that the Sabbath was made for all mankind, not just the Jews. And that it is no longer sinful to work on the 7th day, which is now a Gospel Day of freedom from the guilt and power of the law. Then of course he claims to be the Lord and protector of this doctrine, even as he defends his new active 7th day Sabbath in one debate after another.
How can you not know this? You need to read the Gospels, they are full of Jesus NC Sabbath teachings, which sent him to the cross. How many so-called Christians today would also send him to the cross? The NCT crowd would be cheering for his demise, as would the SDA’s who think the OC Sabbath of the 4th Commandment is still in full force for the NC Church.
Bob 2 said: Because Jesus offered doves for sacrifice, should we, because He kept Passover, should we. Because He kept all the Jewish Festivals are we obligated to follow His example.
Tom said: Jesus embraced the OC as a Jew when he was young. But he grew up and understood the NC. Thus he did not teach that the Gospel contained the OC. It does not. He was the sacrifice, and the church was the new Temple, where all are priests of God, free from the strict rules of the 4th Commandment.
Moreover, many OC doctrines were reformed in a NC context, including the Passover, which became the Eucharist, and the Mikveh, which became baptism. Christ also reformed the Sabbath of Moses into the 7th day Lord’s Day, where it was no longer a sin to work.
http://www.haydid.org/ronimmer.htm
Bob 2 said: Christ says nothing of anticipating the Sabbath in the New Covenant, His Kingdom. There was a lot discussed but more that Jesus wished to tell the disciples that He left for the Holy Spirit's work.
Tom said: Deny the Words of Jesus about his reformed 7th day Sabbath all you want, but it does not mean they have been removed from the Gospels. They have not. Nor did the HS come along and invent new Sabbath doctrines that repudiated what Christ had already taught, much less after the apostles wrote the Gospels. Your views are absurd.
Bob, you need to stop denying Christ. You do this at every turn. Those that marginalize and ignore what Christ teaches, looking for Gospel instruction from others, are blind.
Bob 2 charged: Your speculation cannot be backed up with scripture.
Tom replied: Ha! This is too funny. NCT is built on myth, error, and fiction, not the genuine Gospel that is being advocated by Adventist Reform. This point has been proven over and over on this site for all to see.
Bob 2 said: Christ kept the Sabbath and tried to strip away man made add-ons because he was born under the law (Old Covenant). But nowhere does He obsess over like you and make it a salvific issue.
Tom replied: Christ DID NOT keep the OC Sabbath, which is why the Jews became so angry with him. How can you not understand this part of the Gospel Story? Only a blind person could miss all this angry debate about the Sabbath in the Gospels.
Furthermore, Jesus was so interested and obsessed with the doctrine of the Sabbath that he debated it over and over with the religious leaders, even declaring himself to be its’ Lord and Defender in the face of death. Why would he do such a thing? Because he did not care about the Sabbath. Because he was going to “abolish” it?
Your view of the Gospel Story, which you received first from the legalistic SDA’s and then again from the confused NCT crowd, is so warped and full of error, that it is impossible for you to comprehend Gospel Truth at this time. You must remove this error or you will never be able to find the Gospel. It is really sad to see such confusion and needless error. Until you can become honest with the Bible, including Genesis, the Gospels, and the rest of the NT, you will remain in the dark. Sad.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, I was only refuting what you do not supply scripture for or speculate, you and an army of I, of it's meaning. Supply scripture for your claims and scholars to back it up. You, I do not consider a scholar, so go looking for backup for your claims. I too am weary of debating positions not backed up by you by scripture. Hubb and I are looking at some of his arguments and seeing no scriptural backup, only a man's speculation or "feeling".
Last edited by bob_2 (12-24-13 12:48 pm)
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Bob, your refusal to honestly deal with the Sabbath teachings of Christ in the Gospels, disqualifies you from this discussion.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Those who are so stubbornly anti-Christ, denying Jesus words have no standing in any Gospel debate. They are outside the Kingdom of God, wasting time with dishonest arguments all calculated to lead people away from Christ and his Gospel. Jesus has some insights about such a situation.
Matt. 7:6 “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
If you are trying to be a good ambassador for NCT, you have failed. Your views, as well as your false hermeneutics, have been reduced to ashes for all to see. The Every Day Sabbath is a bad joke for the blind. Your views, many of them absurd, are not worthy of serious discussion. Unless you can find a way to repent, including repenting for what you believe about the NC, Sabbath you are doomed.
John 5:37 “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
No need to waste any more time promoting false doctrine. It is pointless. Repent and find the Gospel, this is your only hope.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, supply the texts that prove Jesus changed the Sabbath law and taught it differently than the Decalogue outlines. You can't find it. Synagogues were not something in the desert wanderings, so rules about them had to be set up. Jesus, as Lord of the Sabbath knew the intent of the law and preached, born under the OC law, He had to keep it. Show where the New Testament says something different than 2 Cor 3 and Heb 8:13. You teach a reformed Sabbath, the truth is a fulfilled Sabbath, Col 2:16, 17. How can you ignore the clear word of God and continue with a "working Sabbath" based on Jesus statement that was true at Sinai and the Fall, He and His Father were always working on the salvific details of the Plan of Salvation. Show one text where He given the opportunity to instruct them on the Sabbath, and does not. The woman at the well.
John 4: 21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
Nothing is said about when, what day they would worship on in the future. You are convinced the Saturday is a holy day, I am convinced that Jesus is the reality as Col 2 states. It is a debatable matter and lets not judge each other as the NT instructs.
Romans 14:5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
This is not salvific in nature. You are arguing about something that is not to be added to how you are saved.
Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
No Reformed Sabbath here.
Last edited by bob_2 (12-25-13 3:49 am)
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Bob 2, who is obsessed with the false doctrine of NCT said: Tom, supply the texts that prove Jesus changed the Sabbath law and taught it differently than the Decalogue outlines.
Tom replied: Bob, you act as if this is a difficult challenge. But it is very simple. The real question is this: can you repent of NCT and embrace the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. Can you?
The most simple and easy way to show that Jesus was changing the doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, which was exclusively Jewish, is his new view about the Sabbath being made for mankind.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Such a point stunned the Jews because they assumed this doctrine was only for Jews. But if the Sabbath is for all mankind, then there must be another religious paradigm unfolding, and so there was. The NC was replacing the OC and the Sabbath played a key role in the change in the Covenants, even to this very day.
All that believe the words of Christ can go forward, advancing to the NC. But those who refute Jesus Sabbath teaching, are prevented from understanding the NC correctly. Do you believe what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath in Mark 2? No you do not. Thus you are not following the Good Shepherd, the Lord of the NC Sabbath, which is for all mankind. No wonder you are confused and lost.
Bob 2 said: You can't find it.
Tom replied. No. YOU can’t find it because you are theologically blind. However, those that understand the Gospel have no problem as you assume. Jesus CHANGED AND REFORMED THE 7th day SABBATH for all to see. He did not remove it or change the day to Sunday, nor did he change it into an Every Day, 7-day, experience of rest, as the NCT crowd teaches. Those who find and embrace the NC Sabbath will find the genuine Christ, and Eternal Life
Bob 2 said: Synagogues were not something in the desert wanderings, so rules about them had to be set up.
Tom said: This is an irrelevant point. You need to admit you have been wrong. Can you do this?
Bob 2 said: Jesus, as Lord of the Sabbath knew the intent of the law and preached, born under the OC law, He had to keep it.
Tom said: Jesus refused to keep the OC Sabbath, which was given only to the Jews. Rather, he taught a NC Sabbath that was for all mankind, one that allowed freedom from the law of the 4th Commandment. Misunderstand his NC Sabbath and you will also misunderstand the Gospel. This is what millions have done, including the SDA’s that are so blind to the Gospel that they are unable to comprehend it, which is why the promote a false Sabbath that represents the enemies of Christ that sent him to the cross. NCT is also cultic garbage for the trite and foolish.
Bob 2: Show where the New Testament says something different than 2 Cor 3 and Heb 8:13.
Tom said: The Gospels are the correct source to learn the 7th day Sabbath of Christ, not Paul. You refusal to go to Jesus, and learn from his words, shows that you are not being honest or rational. You are playing the role of an unbelieving fool for all to see.
Bob 2 protested: You teach a reformed Sabbath, the truth is a fulfilled Sabbath, Col 2:16, 17.
Tom said: Stop with the NCT garbage. There is no such thing as a “fulfilled” Sabbath. Such recent assumptions are not supported by the NT, much less the long history of the church or the specific Sabbath teachings of Christ.
Bob, you must make some better choices if you want to understand the Gospel. The first one is to go to no one but Christ in the Gospels and learn the NC Sabbath from him. Unless you make this correct choice, you are a dead man walking. The same goes for everyone else, including your leaders Zaspel and Wells.
Bob 2 said: How can you ignore the clear word of God and continue with a "working Sabbath" based on Jesus statement that was true at Sinai and the Fall, He and His Father were always working on the salvific details of the Plan of Salvation.
Tom replied: Now you are speaking like an SDA or a 1st century Jew. They are obsessed with the 4th Commandment, where work is sinful. I see you are taking their view now. Fine. It is dead wrong. The Jews also asked the same question of Christ. How could any pious Jew reject the 4th Commandment? Much less one that claimed he was following God?
The Gospel Story is not up for debate. It is what it is, warts and all. When it comes to the 7th day Sabbath, it is clear that Jesus gets into great trouble with the religious leaders because of his views about working on the Sabbath. Only a blind person could miss this. Read the Gospels to find truth, not to justify false doctrine. There is a great difference.
Bob 2 said: Show one text where He, given the opportunity to instruct them on the Sabbath, and does not.
Tom said: Jesus teaches the NC Sabbath in public over and over again for all to see. The Sabbath is a weekly public, ceremonial, and congregational doctrine of the Jews. Every 7th day, Jesus instructed the Jews and his Apostles about his active and reformed Sabbath. Thus the Gospels are full of such NC Sabbath instruction.
Bob 2 said: The woman at the well. John 4: 21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. Nothing is said about when, what day they would worship on in the future.
Tom said: Bob, this is why you are such a dishonest fool. Rather than go to the places in the Gospels where Jesus teaches about his NC Sabbath, you go to where he does not to make your false points. What is the matter with you? Such tricks will get you nowhere, much less eternal Life. The longer you fight against Christ, and run from his words, the less you are able to comprehend truth. Your mind has already been ruined by so many years of cultic indoctrination by the SDA’s. It might be too late for you. Pity.
Bob 2 said: You are convinced the Saturday is a holy day, I am convinced that Jesus is the reality as Col 2 states. It is a debatable matter and lets not judge each other as the NT instructs.
Tom said: I am convinced that you mind is ruined and that you are unable to honestly state my position, much less what the NT teaches. For the record, again, I do not think the 7th day is holy in the NC. It was in the OC, but not in the NC. This is one of the few points where the NCT crowd is correct. Why do you constantly misrepresent what I say? Is it because you are too dishonest or just too stupid to follow this discussion? You are a mess, my friend. Why not see a doctor and get some meds to help your mind think. Maybe they will help?
Understand that our opinions have no effect on the Gospel teachings of Christ. Not mine or yours. So it makes no difference what we think is true. You can think Jesus promoted whatever you want, but it does not make it so. Only what is taught in the Gospel by Christ can be true, regardless if we understand it or not, or believe in it or not.
The fact that you think Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath means nothing without seeing this taught in the Gospel by Christ. No such point was ever made by Christ, so that is the end of the matter for those that respect and follow Christ. You do neither, which is why you mind is full of false and worthless doctrines.
Bob 2 said: This is not salvific in nature. You are arguing about something that is not to be added to how you are saved.
Tom said: So following Christ is not about salvation? Really? Do you think one can be saved by refuting, denying, and disbelieving in Christ? Really? If so, you are sick unto death. There is little hope for you or any that think like you. Sad.
Jesus makes it clear that those who refuse to follow his active, NC Sabbath are blind and lost. They are not following the Good Shepherd. Deny and avoid him all you want, but his words cannot be changed to fit your delusions.
Bob quoted Paul: Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. - No Reformed Sabbath here.
Tom replied: Paul cannot give you Eternal Life, much less explain the Gospel to you. Those that want to follow Christ for Eternal Life must go to Christ, - in the Gospels, and learn from him what is important, true, and necessary and what is not. When it comes to the 7th day Sabbath, only Christ is the self-proclaimed Lord and Defender of this Genesis based doctrine. Not Paul. What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath in the Gospel dwarfs Paul's few remarks. It is the Sabbath teaching of Christ that must be embraced. Paul agrees. Anyone that does not, is not following Christ, nor do they know him.
I repeat, those who run away from Christ, deliberately refusing to learn what he teaches about the NC Sabbath will be as lost as the Jews that did exactly that.
Bob, you, and the SDA’s, as well as the NCT crowd, are in a hopeless position. The Sunday crowd too. The only way out for them all is to repent and learn the active and reformed Sabbath, which is for all mankind, directly from Christ. This doctrine about the 7th day is the Gospel sign of the Good Shepherd. Misunderstand this theological and historical point and the Gospel of Christ will elude you, and so too Eternal Life.
Let all repent and embrace the Gospel, which includes the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. This doctrine is the sign of the Good Shepherd.
John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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Tom said,
The most simple and easy way to show that Jesus was changing the doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, which was exclusively Jewish, is his new view about the Sabbath being made for mankind.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Tom, this was a point to the Jews that man was not made for the Sabbath because that was the obsession they had just like you and Hubb. Had they believed he meant that the Sabbath was for Gentiles, they would and were angry about other points of His teaching on the Sabbath. Mark 2:27 in no way is teaching something new. The Decalogue if kept the right way would have been recognized for man, but the law had only been given to the Jews. No scholar teaches what you teach about that verse unless they are within the SDA ranks. It does not mean what you say it does, Christ teaching a New Covenant doctrine. Col 2: 16, 17 prove that the Sabbath was fulfilled by Jesus and there was no intent other than Soul Rest by Jesus in the New Covenant.
Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Last edited by bob_2 (12-26-13 11:19 pm)
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Bob, who is obsessed with the false Sabbath views of NCT, -refuses to repent. He thinks his mission, late in life, is to refute Christ and fight against the NC Sabbath that Jesus teaches in the Gospels. He refuses to accept the simplest points about Jesus’ NC Sabbath. Such are the ways of those who are anti-Christ. Sad.
While Bob thought he had asked a difficult, if not impossible, question about the Sabbath, the answer was so simple and obvious that only a blind person could not see the answer. But guess what? Bob is a good example of one who is spiritually blind, unable to see the Gospel or Christ. Without receiving new eyesight, he will remain in the dark.
Bob refutes what Christ clearly teaches about the Sabbath, thus proving himself to be anti-Christ, not a follower of Jesus as he pretends. Let all beware such people with their false agenda’s and false doctrines.
Matt. 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Tom said: The most simple and easy way to show that Jesus was changing the doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, which was exclusively Jewish, is his new view about the Sabbath being made for mankind. Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Bob 2 protested Jesus words: Tom, this was a point to the Jews that man was not made for the Sabbath because that was the obsession they had just like you and Hubb.
Tom said: Stop trying to manipulate the words of Christ, - changing the Gospel Story to fit your false views. This is called blasphemy. Who are you to refute what Christ teaches about the Sabbath and what his apostles have written for our edification? Under whose authority do you speak? Not Christ. He has given you no permission to change his teaching or deny his Gospel words? You are obviously working against Jesus, not for him. Nor do you speak for him, or Paul, on any level or about any doctrine.
Jesus states what he states, and the apostles wrote down his words for us as instructed by Christ. Our challenge is to understand and embrace Jesus words, not repudiate or change them to mean whatever we want. The original language of Mark 2: 27 leaves no room for doubt about what Jesus is teaching. He teaches that the (NC) Sabbath is for all mankind, just like the Gospel. Thus the Gospel Sabbath was for the church, both Jew and Gentile, even all mankind. This is what Jesus’ words say and mean. They cannot be changed for any reason, much less to embrace the absurdities of NCT, which you support.
Bob, you need to stop spinning Jesus words into something very different from what the text says. Legions play such games, including the SDA’s, who have ruined your mind. Then, to underscore your contempt for the genuine Christ, you run to embrace Paul’s supposed view of the Sabbath, thinking he is the Lord of the Sabbath, an expert on this doctrine. Like I said, you are mess. Your mind has been ruined by the SDA’s, leaving you unable to honestly understand the Bible, much less the Gospel of Christ. I feel sorry for you and the legions of others in the SDA Community whose minds have also been rendered unable to comprehend the Gospel. Sadly, Jesus teaches that most will never understand the Gospel, so this is to be expected.
Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Bob 2 said: Had they believed he meant that the Sabbath was for Gentiles, they would and were angry about other points of His teaching on the Sabbath.
Tom said: Sorry. Your dubious assumptions are no excuse to deny, repudiate, or change the words of Christ. What is the matter with you? Jesus teaches what he teaches about the Sabbath and all else. Period. There has been no mistake, nor is there any reason why his words should not be taken at face value. Jesus teaches that the Sabbath, meaning the original Creation Sabbath, as well as his 1st century NC Sabbath, is for all MANKIND. He is not saying this about the OC Sabbath, but the NC Sabbath that he is promoting for all to see.
The fact that Jesus' words do not fit with your warped NCT views is too bad. The Gospel is not for everyone. Those who don’t like it don’t have to embrace it. So why not just admit that the Gospel is not for you? Why the need to make up your own false version, much less lead others away from the genuine Christ?? Your false Gospel will not amount to a hill of beans now, or when you die. So what is the point? Revenge against the SDA’s?
No one is authorized to spin Jesus words in another direction to protect false doctrine. This is not allowed. It shows you are a dishonest and false prophet, a wolf in sheep’s clothing leading others away from the Good Shepherd, whose sign of authenticity is the active and reformed 7th day Gospel Sabbath. Sad.
Moreover, why would you say that the Jews did not get mad at Jesus? They were furious from the start. The Jews were always angry with Jesus about his Sabbath views. This is why they killed him. So you need to stop trying to change the Gospel Story to fit your false views.
The correct method to understand what Jesus is saying in Mark 2 is to look at the text and see what words he used in the original language. You refuse to do this because you know that the word Jesus used means “mankind’ and not Jew. Which is why every translation in the world shows Jesus teaching that the 7th day Sabbath is for all mankind. Mankind is not the same word as for Jews. The Jews are not “mankind,” or “humanity.” There is no point in denying what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath.
Bob retorted: Mark 2:27 in no way is teaching something new.
Tom replied: Wrong. The Jews did NOT teach that the Sabbath was made for all mankind. They would be appalled at such a suggestion. So this was very different and “new” to them.
In fact, the Jews would not allow the Gentiles to embrace the Sabbath. Did you know this fact? They must first become circumcised Jews. This fact shows how very radical Jesus’ teaching was to the ears of the Jews. Then, to add the additional “new view” that works is no longer sinful on the 7th day, - this was also a very difficult concept for the Jews to grasp. One they also hated.
The OC Sabbath Only for Jews:
"Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant; it is a sign between me and the children of Israel"; and not between him and the rest of the world: and in ( Exodus 31:14 ) , "Ye shall keep the sabbath, for it is holy unto you":
On which the Jews make this remark:
"To you, and NOT to the rest of the nations":
Nor did they ever think that the Gentiles were obliged to observe their sabbath, only such who became proselytes to their religion; even those who were proselytes of righteousness: for a proselyte of the gate, was not bound to observe it; for so says Maimonides:
Those who take upon them the seven commandments of Noah only, Lo! They are as a proselyte of the gate, and they are free to do work on the sabbath day for themselves, openly, as an Israelite on a common day.
Yea, they not only say, they were not obliged to keep the sabbath, but that it was not lawful for them to observe it; and that it was even punishable with death them to regard it; for so they say; "A Gentile that keeps the sabbath before he is circumcised, is guilty of death, because it is not commanded him." (F18) They judged them unworthy of having this precept enjoined on them, as being not men, but beasts, and worse than they, and had not the privilege the ass has: hence one of their commentators says:
"Concerning the rest of an ass, thou (O Israelite!) art commanded; but concerning the rest of a Gentile, thou art not commanded.'' (F19)
F18 Debarim Rabba, sect. 1. fol. 234. 4.
F19 Bartenora in Misn. Sabbat, c. 24. sect. 1.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commenta … -2-27.html
Jesus Sabbath teachings were very different from what the Jews taught or expected. The Jews were stunned by his Gospel views. This is why there was running battle between Christ and the Jews about the Sabbath all during his ministry. Jesus taught a very new and different doctrine of the Sabbath. No need to deny this point just because you don’t like what he teaches.
Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him.”
Mark 2:22 “No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins.”
Acts 17:19 And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is which you are proclaiming?
The NC Sabbath is NEW TEACHING. Like the Gospel, it is for all mankind, through the church. There is no use in denying this obvious and clear NC point taught by Jesus. But of course this is what you do. Sad.
Bob 2 said: The Decalogue if kept the right way would have been recognized for man, but the law had only been given to the Jews.
Tom said: Stop the double-talk and spin. The Sabbath stands in the center of the Decalogue. So why would only 9 out of the 10 Commandments be suitable for mankind, except the Sabbath? Do you see how this makes no sense? Why are you so prejudiced against the 7th day Sabbath? The NC version is not like the OC doctrine of the SDA’s. They are very different, even thought they are on the same day. Regardless, you are very wrong, as well as delusional, to think Jesus is not teaching a NEW doctrine of the Sabbath for ALL MANKIND in the Gospels. To deny this is to deny the Gospel.
At this late point in your life, you have gone on record denying the Good Shepherd and repudiating Eternal Life. This makes you anti-Christ. Are you sure this is where you want to end up at the end of your life? Why not discuss this with your wife? Does she even know that you have become so anti-Christ, anti- Gospel, and anti—7th day, fighting Adventist Reform at every opportunity? Is this how you want to end your life? Sad.
Bob 2 said: No scholar teaches what you teach about that verse unless they are within the SDA ranks.
Tom replied: While few scholars comprehend the NC Sabbath correctly, everyone understands that Jesus is speaking about MANKIND in this passage. That is the original word used in the text. Not the word for Jew. Thus the passage is self-evident and clear. While the meaning may be understood in some different ways, the wording cannot. Jesus says what he says and no one is allowed to change his words, or his intended meaning.
Bob 2 said: It does not mean what you say it does, Christ teaching a New Covenant doctrine. Col 2: 16, 17 prove that the Sabbath was fulfilled by Jesus and there was no intent other than Soul Rest by Jesus in the New Covenant.
Tom replied: Jesus teaches what he teaches, and he never spoke a word about “fulfilling” the Sabbath. This is such a worthless myth that I am stunned anyone would try to foist it on people. But false doctrine has a mind of its own. Those that refuse to believe Christ’s words, like you Bob, are lost. They are not forced to believe what they don’t like or think is wrong. They are free to embrace as much false doctrine as they want. But is this how you want to use your freedom?
Why not just come out and admit that you do not like the Jesus of the Gospels and that you are going to make up a different version in your head that makes you feel better? This is what most people do, which is why there is so much error and confusion in the church. Your constant avoidance of Christ, combined with your embrace of Paul as if he were the Lord of the Sabbath and your Savior, proves that you don’t have much use for the Gospel teachings of Christ, that you marginalize and repudiate at every opportunity. Why even claim to be a Christian? You are not even close to understanding what that means, much less understanding how the NC functions.
Bob, why not get some value out of your long association with Adventism? They were correct on a number of points, including the point about the 7th day being the right day for the NC Sabbath. Why not rejoice that the true 7th day Gospel Sabbath has been found rather then going on an anti-Sabbatarian campaign to destroy the 7th day as a doctrine and promote NCT nonsense?
Bob 2 quoted: Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Tom said: Glad to see you trying to quote Christ. However, you need to learn how to do this in a more honest and useful manner. You need to learn the Gospel Sabbath directly from Christ and stop trying to force him to teach the double-talk of Zaspel and Wells. Can you do this? Can you repent of your false views and sit at the feet of Jesus, in the Gospels, and learn the Gospel Sabbath from him? Thus, you hold the fate of your personal destiny in your own hands. Why not re-think your views and try to see things more clearly? Why not pay attention to Christ and stop following those who would confuse and mislead you?
Come on Bob, you are not getting any younger. The Gospel is the only real hope we can take to the grave. Which such high personal stakes on the line, why not make certain you have the genuine doctrine?
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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Note this scholar's position on what you keep insisting on:
Mark 2:27 - The Sabbath Was Made For Man
After the Pharisees criticized Jesus for allowing his disciples to pick some grain on the Sabbath day, Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27).Was he saying that God made the Sabbath for both Jews and gentiles—all human beings?No, that was not the point. Jesus did not say that the Sabbath was made for all people. The Pharisees believed that the Sabbath was for Jews only. If Jesus had said that the Sabbath was made for gentiles, it would have created another controversy.
The Pharisees were concerned about the behavior of the disciples, not the gentiles. If Jesus responded by teaching that the Sabbath was made for everyone, it would have supported the Pharisees' concerns instead of refuting them.
The Pharisees were overestimating the importance of Sabbath restrictions. Jesus responded to them not by expanding the Sabbath, but by reducing it.
We can see what Jesus meant by looking at the next phrase: "and not man for the Sabbath." His point was that the Sabbath was made to serve people, instead of people being created to serve the Sabbath. The Sabbath was a servant, not a master. He was addressing the relative importance of the Sabbath, not which specific people were given the Sabbath.
We could just as easily say, "Circumcision was made for humans, not for angels." This statement is true, but we should not focus on the first half as if it meant that circumcision was made for all humans. It was given to Israel only, not the rest of the world.
Similarly, Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for humans, but he did not say, nor did he mean, that it was made for all humans.
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Bob, again, do you think we are playing ping-pong? If so, you are wrong. You need to face up to the specific issues presented and either refute the points being made or admit you are wrong. Pushing forward those who are as confused and wrong as you, is not helpful. It is only a pointless diversion.
Bob 2 said: Note this scholar's position on what you keep insisting on:
Tom said: First, it is God, and then Christ that declares Jesus words are not to be ignored, marginalized, or refuted. The NT “insists” that those who follow Christ pay close attention to what he says and “listen” to him. I agree.
Mark 9:7 Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!”
Mark 9:8 All at once they looked around and saw no one with them anymore, except Jesus alone.
John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
“Listen to Christ.” Do not refute or ignore him.
Second, you have not found a scholar, but someone involved with the confusion and demise of Herbert Armstrong’s World Wide Church of God; a tithe paying, 7th day Sabbath group that was very much like the SDA’s, minus the error of the IJ.
So this source, while interesting, is useless. This group is self-destructing because they can’t comprehend the NC Sabbath correctly. Like the SDA’s, this group also thought they had found the correct Sabbath doctrine, but then they realized, like millions of SDA’s, that something was wrong. As a result, they too are in a “free fall,” just like the SDA’s, who are much larger. This confused group does not have many answers, but good for them to keep trying.
Unfortunately, one can find all manner of scholars that promote error and false doctrine, including the vast majority that teach Sunday is the Sabbath. So what? Christ did not invent Gospel doctrine in order to please religious scholars, all of which were opposed to what he taught.
Fortunately, we don’t need to run to any scholars today to understand the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. In fact, this discussion can only be resolved by understanding the head theologian of the church, Jesus Christ. What he teaches, trumps all others, even condemning those who teach something else. If anyone wants to understand the NC Sabbath, they must go, not to any so-called theologian, but only to Christ in the Gospels. There they will find the truth about the Gospel Sabbath, from the Lord of the Sabbath.
World Wide Church of God/Grace Communion International
Here is what the confused and self-destructing remnant of the World Wide Church of God is teaching today. They were admittedly wrong about the Sabbath, and now they are still very confused. So what is the point of bringing them into the discussion? They have no answers, only error, confusion, and schism, for all to see.
Bob 2 posted: Mark 2:27 - The Sabbath Was Made For Man. After the Pharisees criticized Jesus for allowing his disciples to pick some grain on the Sabbath day, Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27).
Was he saying that God made the Sabbath for both Jews and gentiles—all human beings? No, that was not the point. Jesus did not say that the Sabbath was made for all people. The Pharisees believed that the Sabbath was for Jews only. If Jesus had said that the Sabbath was made for gentiles, it would have created another controversy.
Tom said: Wrong, wrong, wrong! It is hermeneutical error to deny what the original text clearly says. This hardly qualifies as “listening to Jesus.” Rather, it is the opposite. What reason was given for changing Christ’s words? Because “it was not the point” or “it would have upset the Jews.” What kind of excuse is that to deny the clear words of Christ? Such lame opinions do not trump what Christ has taught in the Gospels. Nor does such pathetic excuses render the words of Christ moot.
John 8:47 “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
No wonder this group is self-destructing. They are too quick to deny Jesus words, which leaves them without the proper insight or direction to understand the topic. Pitiful. Bob, No wonder you like this group. They think like you, even as their views are also easily exposed as nonsense, myth, and fiction.
Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
Bob 2 quoted: The Pharisees were concerned about the behavior of the disciples, not the gentiles.
Tom said: This is a misleading statement. The Jews were surrounded and controlled by the Gentiles and thus this statement that they had no care about how the Gentiles interacted or behaved in reference to Judaism is illogical and absurd.
In fact, here is a passage that proves the Jews were very concerned about how the Gentiles viewed Judaism.
John 11:48 “If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”
Moreover, Jesus words are not to be marginalized, ignored, or changed because of some perception about how the Jews would re-act. This is no excuse to repudiate what he teaches or change the Gospel Story. Jesus teaches what he teaches for all to see. No one has any authority to spin away Jesus clear words about anything, much less the Sabbath. Those who treat the Word this way deserve to self-destruct. They will be lost.
Bob 2 quoted: If Jesus responded by teaching that the Sabbath was made for everyone, it would have supported the Pharisees' concerns instead of refuting them.
Tom replied: When it comes to Jesus Sabbath teaching, there is no “if” about any of it. It is a fact of history and theology that Jesus teaches the Sabbath is made for all MANKIND or HUMANITY. There is no use denying what is so clear and irrefutable in the NT.
Anyone that tries to change this fact, fact, fact, or spin it another direction, for any reason, is committing blasphemy. Sinners are not granted any license to change the Gospel Teaching of Christ. Jesus teaches what he teaches; we either understand it correctly, and embrace it, or we do not. We don’t get to change a word, much less any doctrine. Sorry.
Matt. 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
For the record, the Jews were so alarmed with Jesus’ views on the Sabbath that they plotted to kill him. So this idea that Jesus could not have used the word “mankind” in reference to the Sabbath, for fear of upsetting the Jews is absurd. He used that word, on purpose, and the Jews reacted by sending him to the cross.
No need to insert myth and double-talk into the Gospel Story. It only makes it more difficult to understand truth. Stick to the facts and only the facts. If they seem not to make sense, so be it. Jesus teachings were often difficult to understand, even for his apostles. But under no circumstances can anyone change the Words of Christ. Those who think otherwise have lost their minds, as well as Eternal Life.
Bob 2 quoted: The Pharisees were overestimating the importance of Sabbath restrictions. Jesus responded to them not by expanding the Sabbath, but by reducing it.
Tom said: The author fails to understand that Jesus was not just reforming the Sabbath, but promoting a change in the Law. Because the Sabbath is part of the Law, it had to change. Thus the NC Sabbath was not like the OC Sabbath, even thought they both are anchored to the Creation Story, which is also part of the Gospel Story.
Bob 2 quoted: We can see what Jesus meant by looking at the next phrase: "and not man for the Sabbath." His point was that the Sabbath was made to serve people, instead of people being created to serve the Sabbath. The Sabbath was a servant, not a master. He was addressing the relative importance of the Sabbath, not which specific people were given the Sabbath.
Tom said: Wrong. Jesus says what he means, and in fact claims that God gave him the specific words that he used to explain the NC Sabbath. There is no possible way for anyone to confuse the word “mankind” with Jew, much less for Christ, who is the greatest theologian in the history of the world. Shame on anyone that thinks Christ is so confused or wrong. He is neither.
John 17:8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
Furthermore, the Sabbath was not reduced to a “servant” role, rather, it was elevated and reformed by Christ, who claimed he was its’ Lord and Protector. Thus we are “servants” of Christ, not of the Law or the NC Sabbath. Those who followed Christ were given “freedom” from the Law, and the doctrine of the Sabbath was a living metaphor to showcase this Gospel Freedom by working on the 7th day without guilt or sin.
Bob 2 quoted: We could just as easily say, "Circumcision was made for humans, not for angels." This statement is true, but we should not focus on the first half as if it meant that circumcision was made for all humans. It was given to Israel only, not the rest of the world. Similarly, Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for humans, but he did not say, nor did he mean, that it was made for all humans.
Tom said: Wrong. Such a hypothetical statement makes no sense because Angels are not subject to ritual circumcision. Thus it is not a true or rational statement, much less sufficient to prove Christ wrong.
Jesus did in fact teach that the Sabbath was made for all mankind. This is what every NT that has ever been printed shows. Thus there can be no debate about what Christ actually said on this point. None! His words represent “spirit and life.” They are Gospel truth.
John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
It is amazing to me that so many take the time to fight against Christ, as if they could instruct and correct his words. Such wicked hubris is not going to allow anyone to understand the correct doctrine of the Sabbath, much less the Gospel. There is no Eternal Life for those who refute Christ.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
John 15:7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
John 17:8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
Those that think themselves wiser than Christ, and smarter than Heaven, which is every denomination, can play whatever games they want, but it is only those who respect the authority of Christ’s Word, and embrace his teachings that will be granted Eternal Life.
After all these years, it is clear that few can be trusted to be honest with the words of Christ. There are no denominations today that embrace the genuine NC Sabbath of Christ. All are confused and disoriented about the Gospel and the doctrine of the Sabbath.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
This must change and it will change.
It is time for the final reformation of the church. It is time for New Covenant Adventism.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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How many people believe your interpretation of Jesus Words? You, Des Ford ? and ........ That's my point to you that no one even thinks logically like you. Discernment must be what the Holy Spirit is saying and is truth. You are not interpreting His words correctly and you malign Paul, a man called of God and directed by Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
I am going to proceed to review New Covenant Theology. I would prefer that your responses be here not to interrupt the flow of the review. It is at a critical point, about moral, divine law and where it originates from. The Ten Commandments are limited by the language of it to a unique people. The Universe was here before this earth was created. The language of maidservants and maidservants and being delivered from Egypt and effectually becoming obsolete are limited to one people. Divine law and God's Law was present in heaven before the creation of this earth and had it's own tenets which the Devil went against and was thrown out of heaven with his angels that followed him. I won't argue with you anymore, I'm off to finish my review.
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Bob 2, a former SDA turned raging anti-Sabbatarian, refuses to believe the words of Christ in Mark 2. He does not agree with Jesus’ that there is a 7th day Sabbath for all mankind. He claims Jesus was only speaking about a Sabbath for Jews. Consequently, Bob wants to change, alter, and refute, the words that Jesus spoke, and the apostles wrote, all in order to justify his false views about the Sabbath.
Moreover, Bob thinks Christ so foolish that he can’t tell the difference between the word for “humanity” and the word for “Jews.” He obviously views Christ as a dim-witted fellow who could not hold his own at the local village spelling contest.
According to Bob, the Apostle Mark is also guilty of error because he is the one that wrote down the wrong Word, “mankind,” (twice) when he should have corrected Christ and wrote down the word for Jews. (twice)
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Bob refuses to “see,” “hear,” or “believe,” the words of Christ in the Gospels. They don’t make sense to his mind and thus they can’t be true. So he refuses to take Jesus at his word, and in fact, tries to instruct and correct Christ, inserting his own warped views into the Gospel Record. This is very wrong, even fatal.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
When Blind Bob is corrected, he refuses to repent, continuing to think he is wiser then Christ and all the translators of the NT combined. This makes Bob, not only a great fool, but also an anti-Christ blasphemer; a wolf is sheep’s clothing and a very confused man who builds houses on shifting sand, thinking no storm will ever come to test his work.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Let all beware Bob the Blasphemer; he is a foolish wolf that thinks he can correct Christ’s words to support his false views. Pitiful, - simply pitiful. Let all see the debilitating results of cultic, Old Covenant, Adventism. It ruins people’s ability to understand the Gospel. It is poison for those who drink it so long.
Bob 2 continues to fight against Christ by saying: How many people believe your interpretation of Jesus Words? You, Des Ford ? and ........ That's my point to you that no one even thinks logically like you.
Tom said: First off; this is not about “logic,” but about respecting the words of Christ. Only the words of Jesus matter for doctrine and Eternal Life. Regardless how many refuse to believe or understand, the words of Jesus trump the words and opinions of all others.
Gospel doctrine is not determined by how many, or who believe, but only by the Word of Christ. This is the real point. While it is sad that so few take the time to respect, understand, and embrace the words of Jesus, the low number of true believers in no way justifies false doctrine from the majority.
Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Second, the church has always understood Jesus to be teaching a NC, weekly, Sabbath for mankind through the church, not only by his words, but also by his actions. That is why the church has always observed a weekly Sabbath, which is called the Lord’s Day. That is also why no church has ever embraced this absurd Every Day Sabbath that has hypnotized you. It is laughable, as well as impractical and useless.
Third, the original words of Christ in Mark 2: 27 are too plain to be misunderstood. The original language is clear and unambiguous. Here is a long list of 30 Bible Versions that unanimously agree that Jesus teaches a doctrine of the Sabbath for all mankind. Christ states that the NC Sabbath is for all “humanity,” not just for the Jews. There are zero exceptions to this correct translation. Read them all and repent for trying to marginalize and change the words of Christ.
Compare Translations for Mark 2:27
Mark 2:27 ASV
American Standard Version
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mark 2:27 BBE
Bible in Basic English
And he said to them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath;
Mark 2:27 CEB
Common English Bible
Then he said, "The Sabbath was created for humans; humans weren't created for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 CJB
Complete Jewish Bible
Then he said to them, "Shabbat was made for mankind, not mankind for Shabbat;
Mark 2:27 RHE
Douay-Rheims
And he said to them: The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.
Mark 2:27 ESV
English Standard Version
And he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 GW
GOD'S WORD Translation
Then he added, "The day of worship was made for people, not people for the day of worship.
Mark 2:27 GNT
Good News Translation
And Jesus concluded, "The Sabbath was made for the good of human beings; they were not made for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 HNV
Hebrew Names Version
He said to them, "The Shabbat was made for man, not man for the Shabbat.
Mark 2:27 CSB
Holman Christian Standard
Then He told them, "The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 KJV
King James Version
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mark 2:27 LEB
Lexham English Bible
And he said to them, "The Sabbath was established for people, and not people for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 NAS
New American Standard
Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 NCV
New Century Version
Then Jesus said to the Pharisees, "The Sabbath day was made to help people; they were not made to be ruled by the Sabbath day.
Mark 2:27 NIRV
New International Reader's Version
Then Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath day was made for man. Man was not made for the Sabbath day.
Mark 2:27 NIV
New International Version
Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 NKJV
New King James Version
And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 NLT
New Living Translation
Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made to benefit people, and not people to benefit the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 NRS
New Revised Standard
Then he said to them, "The sabbath was made for humankind, and not humankind for the sabbath;
Mark 2:27 RSV
Revised Standard Version
And he said to them, "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath;
Mark 2:27 DBY
The Darby Translation
And he said to them, The sabbath was made on account of man, not man on account of the sabbath;
Mark 2:27 MSG
The Message
Then Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made to serve us; we weren't made to serve the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 WBT
The Webster Bible
And he said to them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mark 2:27 TMB
Third Millennium Bible
And He said unto them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 TNIV
Today's New International Version
Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for people, not people for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 TYN
Tyndale
And he sayde to them: the Saboth daye was made for man and not man for the Saboth daye.
Mark 2:27 WNT
Weymouth New Testament
And Jesus said to them: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath;
Mark 2:27 WEB
World English Bible
He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 WYC
Wycliffe
And he said to them, The sabbath is made for man, and not man for the sabbath;
Mark 2:27 YLT
Young's Literal Translation
And he said to them, `The sabbath for man was made, not man for the sabbath,
http://www.biblestudytools.com/mark/2-27.html
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Bob, do you understand? Your view is not, not, not supported by any Bible translation. NONE! My view is supported by EVERY translation. Jesus teaches his active and reformed, NC Sabbath is for all mankind, all humanity, just like the Gospel. To deny this is to deny Christ.
Who today has the authority to deny or change the words of Christ, or pretend he made a doctrinal mistake? Who has the authority to repudiate what every bible translation says? Bob the Blasphemer? The anti-Sabbatarian NCT crowd? The confused and legalistic SDA’s? The Sunday keepers?
Woe to those who refuse to humble themselves and embrace the Gospel as taught by Christ.
Woe to those that promote false doctrine in his name. Jesus declares it would be better for such false teachers to be drowned in the ocean.
Matt. 18:4 “Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Matt. 18:5 “And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me;
Matt. 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
Matt. 18:7 “Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!
How well can you swim Bob? I mean with a huge millstone tied to your neck? Not very well I suspect. Jesus teaches what he teaches for all to see and hear. Woe to anyone that changes a letter, much less a word of doctrine! Any that are ashamed of what Christ teaches, thinking he made a mistake about the Gospel Sabbath, or anything else, will not be admitted into the Kingdom of God.
Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Bob the Blasphemer said: Discernment must be what the Holy Spirit is saying and is truth.
Tom said: True “discernment” is to embrace the written words of Jesus, trying to understand what they mean and how they apply to our modern life. Those who refute the words of Christ, denying what is so plain and clear, are blind to the Gospel. They have no “discernment” or wisdom. They are blind fools. The Holy Spirit’s mission is to highlight and underscore the words of Christ, not change, ignore, or remove them.
John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
This passage means that the Holy Spirit supports Jesus teaching about the Sabbath being made for all mankind. Why? Because this is what Jesus “said.” The HS cannot go against any words of Christ. He can only remind us to pay attention to the words of Christ, which you refuse to do. Shame on you!
Bob said: You are not interpreting His words correctly and you malign Paul, a man called of God and directed by Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Tom said: My interpretation rests on the original passage of Mark 2: 27, which has been unanimously viewed by all scholars as meaning “mankind,” not Jews. There are no translations in the entire world that claim Jesus meant Jews. NONE!
So the HS must bring to our remembrance the word mankind, as it relates to the Sabbath. Too bad you have chosen to fight not only Christ and his Words, but also the Holy Spirit. As for Paul, he is not the Lord of the Sabbath, so you don’t know what you are saying. It is Jesus, the creator of the world and the original Sabbath that must explain this doctrine. Not Paul.
However, Paul too understands the NC Sabbath of Christ. You are the one that lacks comprehension, as well as the HS. Not Christ or Paul, or even the many translators, all of which correctly use the word for humanity, not Jew, in Mark 2: 27. They are correct. You are not.
Bob the NCT fanatic said: I am going to proceed to review New Covenant Theology.
Tom said: Do whatever you want in your own section. NCT has already been exposed as worthless error for all to see. Nothing has changed. NCT is easily proven to be false. Those who teach this garbage would be better off at the bottom of the ocean, where they can only mislead fish and crabs.
NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
Bob said: I would prefer that your responses be here, not to interrupt the flow of the review.
Tom said: Ha! What flow? NCT can only flow one way my friend, and that is down the drain. This is where all false and useless doctrines must go, to the bottom of the sea.
Bob 2 said: It is at a critical point, about moral, divine law and where it originates from.
Tom said: NCT is confused, anti-Sabbatarian, anti-Christ double-talk. It has failed to resolve the Sabbath debate, and in fact is making things more confused. It is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Bob 2 said: The Ten Commandments are limited by the language of it to a unique people.
Tom said: Correct. However, Jesus’ Gospel is for all mankind, and so too his NC Sabbath where work is no longer sinful on the 7th day and the 4th Commandment has been rendered moot. So while the Moral law had a limited application, to the Jews, the law of Christ has application to all mankind, just like the Gospel and the church.
Bob 2 said: The Universe was here before this earth was created.
Tom replied: So what is the point? The Earth is here now, and so too is Jesus Gospel teachings. Why don’t you embrace what he teaches about the Sabbath? This is the point under discussion.
Bob 2 said: The language of maidservants and maidservants and being delivered from Egypt and effectually becoming obsolete are limited to one people.
Tom said: We are not in Egypt, nor do we live in the OC era, where the 4th Commandment was active. We live in the NC, where Jesus teaches the Gospel is for all mankind, including his active and reformed 7th day Sabbath. It is not the NC Sabbath that is obsolete, but the OC version.
Bob 2 said: Divine law and God's Law was present in heaven before the creation of this earth and had it's own tenets which the Devil went against and was thrown out of heaven with his angels that followed him.
Tom said: Stop the double-talk. Jesus came to earth to teach the Gospel. We must pay attention to what he teaches, including what he teaches about the NC Sabbath. “Listen to him.”
Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Bob 2 said: I won't argue with you anymore, I'm off to finish my review.
Tom said: You are not arguing with me, but with Jesus, the Apostle Mark, and every translator of the NT. I am just pointing out the facts, which you refuse to believe or accept. So be it. Many turn away from the genuine Christ, so this is normative.
Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
It is time for all in the Adventist Community to wake up, repent, and move forward to comprehend the NC Sabbath of Christ. This is a paradigm changing point for the SDA’s, one that will re-invigorate the dying Advent Movement. NCT does not qualify, but what Jesus teaches in the Gospels about the 7th day is correct doctrine for the church.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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Blindness or Light?
It is time for the last church, meaning all in Laodicea and especially the Advent Community, to move out of their darkness and into the light of the Gospel. This need for fresh eyes to see the Gospel and understand the doctrine of the NC Sabbath is underscored by the healing of the man born blind in John 9.
John 9:5 Jesus said: “I am the Light of the world.”
This chapter and the one that follows, John 10, features the active and reformed NC Sabbath of Christ. Here is where the SDA’s, and all others must go, -- to Jesus, in the Gospels, in order to understand the NC doctrine of the Sabbath.
Bob, you need to take a step back and reconsider your dubious views. The Sabbath doctrine of NCT is utter nonsense. It is no improvement over the SDA error, which actually reflects the Sabbath views of Jesus’ enemies, not Christ. Why not go directly to Jesus in the Gospels and learn from him?
Matt. 10:24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.
The fact of the matter is that no one in the Adventist Community has any idea how to define or teach the NC Sabbath. (Nor are thy interested in finding additional truth.) The Sabbath doctrine is much more complicated than the 7th day versus the 1st day. It is time for the SDA’s to grow up and stop acting like the unbelieving, legalistic, Jews.
What the Adventist Community needs is more truth, not more error. NCT is more error. However, rejoice! The genuine NC doctrine of the 7th Day Sabbath has been discovered and articulated for all to see. I suggest you and others take a close, serious, look. Don’t make the Jewish mistake of pretending to see and understand theology, when you are really blind, clueless, and wrong. Such foolish games are spiritual suicide.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Bob the blind said: Tom Norris, I may have asked this before but I'll ask it again. When did the New Covenant begin?
Tom replied: Yes. You have made this incorrect point many times. You think the Gospel started AFTER THE CROSS. Thus rendering Jesus Sabbath teaching only for the OC Jews and not the Church. Slick move. I get what you are trying to do. It is nothing more than stubborn, anti-Gospel, blasphemy. You are not for Christ, but against him.
Luke 11:23 “He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters.
Bob, it is obvious that you are trying to find theological justification for ignoring what Christ teaches about the 7th day Sabbath in the Gospels. Why are you at war with Jesus and his Word? Why do you ignore Christ and try to instruct him? That is all wrong. You need to listen and learn from him, through the Gospels.
THIS is the problem with the SDA’s and all organized religion in Laodicea; few pay any attention to what Christ actually teaches. Which is why no church or denomination has a correct view of the NC Sabbath. NONE! Not even the SDA’s, much less the NCT crowd.
The time has come for all in the church pay attention to what Jesus teaches in the Gospels. Most have no idea what he teaches, starting with the SDA’s that are clueless to the Gospel doctrines of Christ, which is why they are so wrong about so much, including the Sabbath doctrine, for which they must repent.
As for the “start” of the NC: The Gospel paradigm was conceived long before the earth was created, however, for all practical purposes, it officially started when Jesus was born and the angels rejoiced. Were the Angels glad about the OC? No. They rejoiced that the “Good News” of the Gospel was now going to be known by mankind through Christ, the Son of God. The Gospel, in the form of Christ, had come to earth to save mankind.
Luke 2:4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David,
Luke 2:5 in order to register along with Mary, who was engaged to him, and was with child.
Luke 2:6 While they were there, the days were completed for her to give birth.
Luke 2:7 And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
Luke 2:8 In the same region there were some shepherds staying out in the fields and keeping watch over their flock by night.
Luke 2:9 And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened.
Luke 2:10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;
Luke 2:11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
Luke 2:12 “This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”
Luke 2:13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,
Luke 2:14 “Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.”
Christmas, even though the date of Dec 25 is way off, is the start of the NC. THIS is why the Angels sang. Because the NC was replacing the OC. While Jesus was born under the OC law, he did not stay under it. In fact, he denied and broke it as he introduced the NC Gospel to the Jews and then to the world through the writings of the apostles.
So the cross was not the start of the Gospel, but the inauguration of this remarkable paradigm. Do not confuse the two. What Jesus teaches in the Gospels is for the church. These NC books were written by the apostles long after the cross to capture the original and authentic Gospel teachings and sayings of Christ. Our salvation depends on how we react to the words of Christ in the Gospels.
The Gospels represent the NC words and doctrines of Christ for those that are being saved. For anyone to claim, like you have done, that Jesus does not teach the Gospel, in the Gospels, --well—they have lost their minds and their souls. No need for further discussion with those that refuse to accept the authority or correctness of the Gospels, pretending they are not truth for the church and can be ignored. Such are blind and deaf to truth.
Bob, you are playing the same game as Marcion. He too, discounted and ignored most of the Gospels in favor of Paul’s letters. Thus he crafted his own, very different and much smaller NT from what we have today. He also embraced a very anti-Semitic Christ, -repudiating what the original apostles wrote and taught in the Gospels. He was correctly called a heretic by the church fathers.
Many today also pick and choose whatever the like from the Bible, creating their own worthless view of the Gospel Story. Such dishonest, incompetent, and convoluted hermeneutics can only lead to one false doctrine after another. Look around; all is chaos in the church.
Gospel truth, which was written by the power of the Spirit, is not what we manipulate it to be, but what God and Christ declare it to be in the Gospels. Anyone, like you Bob, that ignores and repudiates the Gospel words of Christ, also repudiates the Holy Spirit, and is in fact fighting the Spirit by blaspheming the Word.
To deny the written Words of Christ in the Gospels, and to change the Gospel Story, is to deny the Spirit that helped write these ancient words. By doing so, you have cut yourself off from mercy and salvation. This is the unpardonable sin.
Luke 12:8 “And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God;
Luke 12:9 but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
Luke 12:10 “And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.
If you want Eternal Life, I strongly suggest that you stop “speaking against” Christ and his Word, allowing the Spirit to direct you to listen to what Jesus teaches in the Gospels. There can be no salvation apart from Christ’s teachings in the Gospels. What he teaches is Gospel Truth, including what he teaches about the Sabbath.
John 16:13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
John 16:14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
Mark 9:7 Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!”
Bob the blind said: Why is that important? (When the NC began) Jesus was the perfect sacrifice and obeyed the law he was born under as stated here:
Gal 4:4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.
If you don't believe Jesus had to obey the Mosaic Law, that he was born under, we can stop conversing about the topic. We will never have the meeting of the minds.
Tom replied to the blind man Bob: Let’s stop this discussion now, because there is zero chance we will agree on the Gospel or the Sabbath. You are so confused and befuddled as to be comical. You want to find a way to ignore and refute what Jesus teaches in the Gospels; I do not. I want to understand and follow what Jesus teaches. Your view is fatal.
Pay attention: Jesus is much greater than Moses, the Temple, or the OC law. The very fact you think otherwise is telling. Jesus did not have to obey the laws of Judaism, and in fact he refused to do so, which outraged the Jews. Jesus not only refused to obey the OC; he dared try to change it into the NC.
Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
Bob quoted Jesus in Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. That happened at His death.
Tom replied: Ha! You don’t know what you are quoting or saying. So you think “Heaven and Earth” passed away at the cross? This is what you just said. But it makes no sense. You talk gibberish. What you claim is not even what the verse says, proving that you need new and improved eyes, because the ones you have are broken.
Bob the blind blasphemer said: From the Resurrection to His Ascension not one word is mentioned about the Sabbath that you put such import on. The thing you don't understand is the Gospels were pre New Covenant.
Tom replied: After the resurrection, Jesus did not repudiate what he taught before the cross. Why would you think so? Jesus was still the Lord of the NC Sabbath after the resurrection and there is no basis to say otherwise.
It is clear that you don’t like what Jesus teaches in the Gospels about the Sabbath. So you invent a fraudulent hermeneutic to make it all go away. Such behavior is not calculated to find Gospel Truth, but to obscure it, which you do at every opportunity. Sad.
There are scores of verses in the Gospels where Jesus teaches and defends his active and reformed NC doctrine of the Sabbath FOR THE CHURCH. This cannot be denied. Your attempt to make these Gospel passages moot is stubborn blasphemy and fatal error.
For anyone to claim that the Gospels are “pre-NC” is absurd, even insane, especially since they were written long after the cross by the apostles. The OT is “pre-NC.” NOT THE NC GOSPELS. The Gospels represent the essence of the NC, even the very Gospel teachings, sayings, and words of Christ that are necessary for salvation. So the Gospels are not, not, not, “pre-NC” as you foolishly claim.
Bob, I have never heard any professed Christian make such an outrageous and disrespectful claim about the Gospels and the teachings of Christ. There is not one serious scholar in any age that would agree with your impossible view about the words of Christ in the Gospels. You are truly blind from birth, having been raised in the darkness of cultic Adventism, refusing to ask for healing. Pitiful. And fatal.
Bob the blind said: His Kingdom and New Covenant could not have begun before His sacrifice was completed and there was blood for the Gospel truth to forgive.
Tom replied: Wrong. Bob, you never fail to misunderstand, ignore, and twist the scriptures to fit your false view of the Sabbath. However, the Gospels show that Jesus was clearly forgiving sins BEFORE the cross, which makes your claim absurd, proving that you don’t know what you are talking about.
Mark 2:3 And they came, bringing to Him a paralytic, carried by four men.
Mark 2:4 Being unable to get to Him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above Him; and when they had dug an opening, they let down the pallet on which the paralytic was lying.
Mark 2:5 And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
Mark 2:6 But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
Mark 2:7 “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”
Mark 2:8 Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts?
Mark 2:9 “Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’?
Mark 2:10 “But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” — He *said to the paralytic,
Mark 2:11 “I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home.”
Bob, when are you going to accept the Gospel Story as written by the apostles? This is your problem; you do not believe the Gospels. You do not accept or believe what Christ teaches in the Gospels. You are not a believer but an “unbeliever.” Jesus was in the business of forgiving sin before the cross. This cannot be denied. So why do you deny the Gospel Story?
Bob, it is clear to me that you have very little idea of the content of the Gospels, much less the theological details of the teachings of Christ. (This goes for all SDA’s) How can you not know that Jesus went around and routinely forgave people their sins, BEFORE THE CROSS? What is the matter with you to claim he could not forgive sins before the cross? Have you lost your mind? Why can’t you understand and believe the Gospel Story?
Answer: You are as blind as were the Jews that also hated the Gospel and the NC Sabbath of Christ. There is no forgiveness or healing for those who refuse to confess their false, blind, views.
Luke 7:47 “For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.”
Luke 7:48 Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.”
Luke 7:49 Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?”
Jesus teaches that those, like you Bob, who reject his active and reformed doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath are lost; they remain unforgiven, refusing to give up their theological errors and repent.
John 9, 10 = NC Sabbath Debate
Note that the term blind, as used in John 9, is a direct and specific reference to those that rejected the NC Sabbath of Christ. This cannot be denied. Read the chapter and see for yourself. In fact, the man that was born blind in this story is not only the one that received his site, but he also embraced Jesus as the Messiah, with his active and working Sabbath doctrine.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Let all understand that these words of Christ were spoken during a Sabbath debate between Jesus and the Pharisees. Jesus calls those that rejected his Gospel Sabbath BLIND. His words still ring out today for those that have ears to hear and eyes to see truth. But to those that are blind, like you Bob, remain in the dark, unforgiven and hopeless. So Bob, how does it feel to be on same side as the Pharisees? They were very anti-Christ, and so too are you today.
Jesus teaches in John 9 that those who reject his active and reformed view of the Sabbath are not following Christ or God. Thus, with the Sabbath debate in mind, Christ introduces the parable of the Good Shepherd in John 10. This passage is part of the great Sabbath debate in John 9. Few have any idea that the Good Shepherd motif is a NC Sabbath parable.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
Who today is following the NC Sabbath of the Good Shepherd? Not the Sunday keepers. Not the SDA’s. Not the NCT crowd, with its’ No Day / Every Day Sabbath confusion. Where is the NC Sabbath of Christ? The one that caused so much division and debate in the Gospels?
The time has come for Christ to heal the blind Laodicean Church, IF THEY WILL REPENT. It is time for those that have been born blind to ask for Gospel mercy. It is time for the church to go to Christ, in the Gospels, and follow him. Starting with his active and reformed, NC, Sabbath, which is the sign of the genuine Good Shepherd.
Bob, you don’t know Christ, much less understand his Gospel theology. He is a stranger to you and to the SDA’s that raised you. Few people know Christ today, which is why there is no correct doctrine of the Sabbath being promoted by any denomination in the world, least of all by the confused, OC minded, SDA’s. This must change and it will change as soon as the genuine Gospel is embraced by a humble, repentant, church.
Jesus & the Sabbath
A good place to start searching for truth is for all to try and comprehend what Jesus, the Good Shepherd, teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. Many, like Bob, are blind to the Gospel and thus they can’t comprehend the teachings of Christ, which includes the famous Good Shepherd parable, which is all about the NC Sabbath of Christ. Few know this Gospel fact.
**(Show of virtual hands: How many knew that the parable of the Good Shepherd was about Jesus’ active and reformed 7th day Sabbath? Anyone?)
Luke 8:10 And He said, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.
Today, as the Spirit moves on the earth, it is re-directing honest minds back to the Gospel teachings of Christ and away from the legions of worthless tradition and myth that have overwhelmed the Laodiccan church. Let all return to the genuine source of Gospel Truth, which is Jesus in the Gospels.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Whatever Jesus teaches about the Sabbath in the Gospels, is what the church must follow. Period.
Bob the Blind Blasphemer said: Jesus never taught a Reformed Sabbath, not indicated it would be part of His Kingdom or New Covenant.
Tom replied: Only a blind person could read the Gospels and conclude that Jesus, the self-proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath, “never taught a reformed Sabbath” for the church. To take such a position is to ignore scores of passages where Jesus debates and defends his new and very strange ideas about the 7th day Sabbath.
In fact, this is the major reason why the Jews sent Jesus to the cross. They hated his Gospel view of the Sabbath, (just like you Bob), which was a reflection of his NC views about the Priesthood, Law, and Temple. Then to make matters worse, Jesus claimed God supported these new ideas, which further enraged the Jews. No doubt you would have rejected Christ in the 1st century, just like you are doing today in the 21st. You are a true unbeliever. Sad.
Bob the blind unbeliever said: I have asked you many times, yet you mock and sneer.
Tom replied: I have asked you many times to repent and embrace the genuine Gospel of Christ, which includes what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. But you refuse, claiming that NCT is truth for the church, with its’ No Day / Every Day Sabbath. But what you call truth is utter nonsense and double-talk that deserves to be exposed as garbage. Sorry. NCT should be mocked for all to see, and I make no apologies for exposing it as worthless, anti-Gospel drivel.
Bob the blind said: You are the one that cannot show where the New Covenant began, that Jesus instructed "YOUR" Reformed Sabbath.
Tom replied: Jesus is the one that invented and taught a NC doctrine of the Sabbath. The Gospels are clear on this point. So why do you deny what is so clearly written? I have no authority to invent any doctrine, nor is this what is taking place. It is NCT that has invented a new, personal view of the Sabbath, in the 1970’s, which has no support from the OT, NT, or from the long history of the church. An Every Day Sabbath is absurd.
As for the start of the NC: When Jesus came to earth, the angels sang for Gospel joy. Why? Because the NC had started in the person of Christ! It was “game on!” Deny this, and you deny the Gospel Story.
Bob the Blind said: Tom, You mock me with "Bob the blind" but you are a false Prophet to teach what you do.
Tom said: What kind of “false prophet” points everyone to the words, sayings, and teachings of Christ in the Gospels? How can such a position be false? We have very different definitions of what is true and false, as well as hermeneutics, of which you are clueless.
Those that reject the Gospels, and try to confuse others about Gospel truth, should be mocked and exposed as wolves for all the sheep to see. You make it easy because you and NCT are so dismissive of the Gospels, which contain the eternal and infinite words of Christ. NCT is built on sand, and so too the Sabbath doctrine of the rebellious SDA’s.
Woe to those that ignore or repudiate Christ and what he teaches in the Gospels. Woe to those today that fight the Gospel, and promote false doctrine in the name of God. They are doomed.
Matt. 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Mark 9:42 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.
Blind Bob said: You are an army of one that falsely teaches that the New Covenant began before the blood of forgiveness was available by Him on the cross. If we can not agree on this part of the Gospel, we are wasting our words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom replied: Bob, how do know anything? You are a blind man from birth. You live in the dark, having only heard about light, but so far you are unable to process it. You are blind. You can’t see close or far. So how can you be so critical of what you cannot see or understand?
Bob, we don’t agree on much of anything, least of all Hermeneutics or even the authority of the Gospels, which you have declared not to be NC. If you continue to pretend that Jesus words in the Gospels are NOT NC, and were NOT meant for the church, you are NOT really a Christian in any sense of the word. No one that rejects Jesus Gospel words, sayings, and teachings, is a follower of Christ.
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
So yes, you are wasting your words, except to the extent this discussion helps others comprehend the absurdity and impossibility of this popular doctrine about a No Day / Every Day Sabbath. This farce is no improvement over the SDA error about the 4th Commandment. Thus the blind are leading the blind away from truth.
Question: Why have so many former SDA’s, like Richard Fredericks, embraced this NCT nonsense?
Answer: Laodiceans do not know Christ or what he really teaches. Nor do they seem to care. Rather they just use Christ’s name to make a good living. Today, religion is big business, full of money, power, and perks. Those in charge love themselves, not Christ. The love of Jesus, and the Gospel teachings of Jesus, are not part of the equation. And neither is Gospel salvation, which is why there no focus on eschatology.
The time is coming when religious leaders will be judged by how well they understand the Gospel teachings of Jesus; not by how little, which seems to be the case today.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
For those that are honest and literate, this discussion has destroyed NCT. With its’ anti-Christ doctrine of a No Day / Every Day Sabbath of spiritual rest. Only a blind person would think otherwise.
Bob the blind said: Oh, one last thing Tom, the general statement that Christ gives about "being blind" are not in the context of a Reformed Sabbath. You put that proof text in, out of context, you can continue, but I think most see though it and "he who has an ear", also being out of context to the subject at hand.
Tom replied: The NT teaches that most are blind when it comes to the Gospel, and thus few will ever find Eternal Life. More specifically, Jesus teaches that the Jews were “blind” to reject his active and reformed doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. So Bob, you are very wrong to think that the NC Sabbath has no basis or context in the Gospels, or that I am taking passages out of context to promote false doctrine.
Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
2Cor. 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
1John 2:11 But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
I agree that not every mention of the word blind is a specific reference to the Sabbath. For example in the above three passages, the first can be assumed because Jesus calls his doctrine of the Sabbath light and truth from God. While it is not a specific reference to any Gospel doctrine, it includes all Gospel doctrine, of which the NC Sabbath is a major and fundamental teaching of Christ.
The second passage is speaking about a person who I hates instead of loves, the latter being a fundamental doctrine of Christ. This passage is not about the Sabbath.
The third passage in John 9 is specifically and exclusively about the NC vs. OC Sabbath. This is the context. Nothing else.
Considering the fact that the entire Laodicean Church has been judged BLIND, -- this is a big topic that needs to be better understood. No spiritually blind person will ever be saved. More to the point, Jesus teaches that to misunderstand his active and reformed Gospel Sabbath, is to remain spiritually blind and unsaved. In other words, the doctrine of the Sabbath is very important to understand. Get it wrong, and you will be judged blind by Christ, doomed in the Judgment.
Origin of the Spiritually Blind and Deaf Terminology
This “general language” about “having eyes that do not see…and “ears that do not hear” was a reference to the stubborn Jews in Moses day. Jesus knew this.
Deut. 29:2 And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, “You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land;
Deut. 29:3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders.
Deut. 29:4 “Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.
Such language continues throughout the OT because the Jews refused to be faithful to their God. They lusted after false gods of stone that could not see or hear, and thus they became like them.
Ezek. 12:2 “Son of man, you live in the midst of the rebellious house, who have eyes to see but do not see, ears to hear but do not hear; for they are a rebellious house.
The point (and pun) was made that those who worship such mindless gods would themselves become unable to see, hear, or think. Here is the ancient and original version of “by beholding we become changed.”
Psa. 135:15 The idols of the nations are but silver and gold,
The work of man’s hands.
Psa. 135:16 They have mouths, but they do not speak;
They have eyes, but they do not see;
Psa. 135:17 They have ears, but they do not hear,
Nor is there any breath at all in their mouths.
Psa. 135:18 Those who make them will be like them,
Yes, everyone who trusts in them.
When Jesus speaks about having ears to hear or eyes to see, his Jewish listeners know he is referencing Moses, David, and others who also called out the Jews for their stubborn, mindless, idolatry. Through this well-known reference, Jesus was appealing to the Jews and later to the Gentiles through the Gospels, to use their minds to understand the real God that had sent him to earth to save mankind
Like today, many were too far-gone to comprehend the Gospel Truth. Their minds, ears, and eyes are like stone. Gospel Truth cannot penetrate rock.
Messianic Context
The healing of the blind and lame was viewed as an eschatological event; a time when the Messiah would come to save Israel. Jesus claims to be the fulfillment of such passages by his spectacular, public, healings, many of which were performed on the Sabbath for all to see.
Is. 29:18 On that day the deaf will hear words of a book,
And out of their gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind will see.
Is. 29:19 The afflicted also will increase their gladness in the LORD,
And the needy of mankind will rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.
Is. 35:4 Say to those with anxious heart,
“Take courage, fear not.
Behold, your God will come with vengeance;
The recompense of God will come,
But He will save you.”
Is. 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind will be opened
And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped.
Is. 35:6 Then the lame will leap like a deer,
And the tongue of the mute will shout for joy.
For waters will break forth in the wilderness
And streams in the Arabah.
The healings of Christ were proof that he was the Messiah. The fact he showcased his healings on the Sabbath, also demonstrates that he was trying to make a point about the 4th Commandment. That point was hardly that Every Day would now be a spiritual Sabbath, much less so that the church could worship every Sunday. NCT is only for the blind.
Blind To Truth
This language about being blind, or having ears that will not hear, is used in both the OT and NT to describe someone who does not see God’s truth. In fact, Jesus used parables to explain the Gospel because the Jews had become so confused and blind about their mission.
Is. 56:10 His watchmen are blind,
All of them know nothing.
All of them are mute dogs unable to bark,
Matt. 13:13 “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Acts 7:51 “You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
Matt. 13:15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’
Matt. 13:16 “But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.
Matt. 17:8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.
What is the “Truth” about the Sabbath? It depends on whom you ask and what they were taught. However, the “truth” about the Sabbath is what Jesus teaches in the Gospels. When the church decides to return to Christ, and take Gospel Truth seriously, they will discover the genuine doctrine of the Sabbath. Until then, they remain blind for all to see.
Parables for the Blind
Jesus routinely concluded his Gospel teachings sessions with the saying about having ears to hear. It was one of his favorite parables. Which includes what he teaches about his reformed and active 7th day Sabbath.
Luke 8:8 “Other seed fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great.” As He said these things, He would call out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Matt. 13:3 And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow;
Matt. 13:4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.
Matt. 13:8 “And others fell on the good soil and *yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.
Matt. 13:9 “He who has ears, let him hear.”
Matt. 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
Matt. 13:11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
Matt. 13:12 “For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
Matt. 13:13 “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Matt. 13:14 “In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
Matt. 13:15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’
Over and over Jesus reinforces his Gospel teaching by using the well-known reference to ears. His words still apply to us today, along with everything else the head theologian of the church teaches. The SDA’s need to understand that not only have they misunderstood the Gospel Sabbath, if they don’t soon make the necessary correction, they will lose everything they have worked so hard to build. Other will complete Sabbath Reform and proclaim the Gospel correctly.
Matt. 13:12 “For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
If the SDA’s have any hearing left in their feeble ears, they had better listen to Jesus. This saying of Christ, and others that he teaches, like the fatalness of disunity, had better penetrate their stone brains or else.
Matt. 12:25 Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.
Is anyone listening?
Ears To Hear the Gospel
An examination of the context in Mark 4, that I routinely quote, shows that this reference INCLUDES what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath. (See Mark 2 & 3). Thus the parable about the “ears,” which is used many times in the Gospels by Jesus, includes Jesus Sabbath teaching. It does not exclude this featured teaching of Christ, as you claim.
Mark 4:9 And He was saying, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
I repeat, the context shows that Jesus had already articulated his active and reformed NC Sabbath in the previous chapters, which means this passage encompasses those prior teachings.
Misleading / Healing the Blind
Jesus teachings and parables about the blind have their origin in ancient Judaism. In the OC, there were rules about the blind. For example, it was against the law to mislead a blind person or take advantage of their sightless condition.
Deut. 27:18 ‘Cursed is he who misleads a blind person on the road.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
Of course, in the Gospel Story Jesus is the one being accused of taking advantage of the blind by leading them to break the 4th Commandment and teaching them false doctrine. However, Jesus turns the tables and applies this law to the religious leaders; which he publicly calls “blind” for rejecting his Gospel Sabbath. Jesus is saying that the religious leaders were misleading the (blind) people away from God.
Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
To be called “blind” by Jesus is a fate worse than death. While legions of the spiritually blind will be healed by Christ and thus be saved, no on who remains blind to the Gospel will be saved. Although we are all born spiritually blind, unless we get healed by Christ, we cannot see or embrace the Gospel, much less the Gospel Sabbath.
Healing the Blind is Eschatological
As predicted in the OT, the healing of the blind was a sign of the Messiah through the power of the Gospel for those that believe. Those Jews that refused to believe the Gospel, and the NC Sabbath of Christ, were called blind and unforgiven by Christ.
Luke 4:18 “THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
Luke 7:22 And He answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM.
Jesus could not heal the spiritual blindness of the Pharisees, nor could he get them to understand or accept his active and reformed NC doctrine of the Sabbath. Christ responded by calling them blind and unforgiven.
Matt. 23:24 “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
The term “blind” means spiritual darkness and doom. It is the opposite of being in the light and enjoying salvation.
John 3:19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
John 3:21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
John 12:46 “I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
The NC doctrine of the Sabbath, as taught by Christ in the Gospels, is LIGHT AND TRUTH for the church. What a pity that so few today have a false and wrong view of the Gospel and the Sabbath. No wonder the last church is called blind and naked, unsaved, and clueless about how to define the Gospel or the Sabbbath.
How appropriate that Jesus claims to be the “light of the world” just before he heals the man born blind. It is also appropriate that he prefaces this illegal Sabbath healing by claiming this situation was custom made to showcase God’s “works,” activity, and mercy, not his rest or law. Jesus knew what he was doing. He was about to teach the NC, Gospel Sabbath for those that could take it in. This is what the 9th and 10th chapters of John are all about; the active and reformed Sabbath of Christ.
John 9:1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
John 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?”
John 9:3 Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
John 9:5 “While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”
Note the repeated emphasis on “work.” 4 X’s. There is zero emphasis on rest or law keeping. Today, the church is blind to the Gospel and the NC Sabbath of Christ. Unless they repent and embrace the genuine Gospel, they are doomed.
The NC Sabbath of Christ plays a central role in correct Gospel theology. Only a blind and deaf person could miss this fact.
The Parable of the Good Shepherd is About the Sabbath
Let everyone understand the Gospel Story. During the Sabbath debates in John 9 and 10, Jesus calls the Pharisees “blind” for refusing to embrace his active and reformed, NC view of the 7th day Sabbath. Not only is the context clear, so too the parable of the Good Shepherd, which is also specifically linked to this debate over the Sabbath.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
John 10:6 This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.
John 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:8 “All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
John 10:9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
John 10:10 “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
John 10:12 “He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.
John 10:13 “He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep.
John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
John 10:15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
Few understand that this long passage in John 10 is the conclusion of the bitter Sabbath debate that started in chapter 9. Where the NC Sabbath was rejected and the blind man that received his sight from Christ was excommunicated from Judaism for believing in Jesus and accepting his active, working, 7th day Sabbath.
Today, only a (spiritually) blind person could read the Gospel Story and conclude that Jesus does not teach a doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath for the church. Not only did he teach such theology, but also people were embracing it, much to the chagrin of the religious leaders that refused to believe.
John 9:26 So they said to him, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?”
John 9:27 He answered them, “I told you already and you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?”
John 9:28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but awe are disciples of Moses.
John 9:29 “We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where He is from.”
John 9:30 The man answered and said to them, “Well, here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes.
John 9:31 “We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.
John 9:32 “Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind.
John 9:33 “If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.”
John 9:34 They answered him, “You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?” So they put him out.
John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
John 9:36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”
John 9:37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.”
John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.
Here is a record of someone who embraced the active and reformed Sabbath of Christ, under persecution from the Jews. The man born blind was given both physical and spiritual eyesight to comprehend the Gospel. Few are so fortunate.
Most all in Laodicea were born blind and live in the dark. This is why they fail to comprehend what is so clear and plain in the Word. But the poor blind man admitted his darkness and was healed, allowed to see Gospel light. Few admit to being blind and thus few are healed.
John 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
Those that “follow” Christ, will also embrace what he teaches about the active and reformed 7th day Sabbath. Only a blind fool would think otherwise.
In fact, in John 5, during another Sabbath Debate, Jesus teaches that those who listen to, and embrace, his active and reformed Gospel Sabbath will receive Eternal Life. They will not be condemned in the Judgment Day.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
It is the greatest of mistakes to think Jesus does not teach a specific, NC doctrine of the Sabbath for the church. In general, the church admits that there is a weekly Sabbath, even if they have not found the fully correct doctrine as yet. NCT points to a false path, which does not lead to the New Jerusalem.
Let all understand, it is a serious problem to misunderstand the Gospel Sabbath of Christ, which all have done. It is a sure sign that people do not know or understand Jesus or his Gospel, regardless what church they go to or what religious books they are reading. There is NO ETERNAL LIFE for those that reject and repudiate the NC Sabbath of Christ. The Gospels make this very clear.
Does the last Church Have Ears to Hear?
In Revelation, Jesus uses the familiar Gospel phrase about ears to hear a number of times.
Rev. 2:11 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’
Rev. 2:17 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.’
Over and over this phrase is used about the specific instruction from Christ to the various churches. The last church, which is judged as being the worst, is totally blind to the Gospel, including the Sabbath. Thus, they are told to repent for their many false doctrines, the Sabbath being the most obvious and public. The active and reformed NC Sabbath doctrine is a part of this warning to Laodicea about listening to Christ.
Rev. 3:22 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
Today, there is not one church or denomination in the world that correctly comprehends the Gospel or the NC Sabbath. Which is why Jesus judges the entire Laodicean Church BLIND and unsaved (naked). This is the same term, (blind) he used in John 9, during the Sabbath debates with the Pharisees.
This is not an accident. In other words, the last church is called to repent for its false view of the Gospel Sabbath, among other errors.
The Laodicean Church has become like the 1st century Jews, They claimed to follow God, even as they rejected Christ and repudiated his Gospel teachings. The Jews were ‘blind” to the Gospel and so too the Gentiles. The record shows that both the Jews and Gentiles have spurned the Gospel and the last church era is the worst. Sad.
Let all understand, when the genuine Gospel is preached in the last church, so too the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. Such a strange and unfamiliar doctrine will have the same effect on the last church as it did for the blind, 1st century Jews. This doctrine caused great debate and division about the law and Gospel, and so it will again.
In hindsight, we can say that the SDA’s were hot on the trail of Gospel truth when they pushed forward their case for the 7th day Sabbath. They were correct to understand that Sunday could not be correct Gospel doctrine. But they made a huge blunder to think Jesus supports and teaches obedience to the 4th Commandment. He does no such thing. That was the position of his enemies that hated his active and working Sabbath.
Had the 1888 debates been allowed to honestly play out, either in Battle Creek or later in Takoma Park, it would have become obvious that the SDA’s hold a false view of the OC “schoolmaster” or “tutor” Sabbath. Such a truthful discovery would have forced them to move forward to better understand the NC Sabbath, which is still on the 7th day.
Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Unfortunately, the 1888 debate was never allowed to reach any serious conclusion in Battle Creek, much less in Takoma Park, where the details were suppressed and covered up by the White Estate. The hierarchical system of the SDA’s was so legalistic and controlling that the Gospel was never fully understood or accepted, preventing the discovery of the genuine Gospel Sabbath, which is currently being censored and shunned by all SDA media, including Spectrum.
This is where things still stand today. The SDA Sabbath is so OC that it is no long functional or sane. Which is why million have left and more leave all the time. Who wants to live under the law? Few wish to be so foolish today. We live in the era of the NC.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
Rev. 3:20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
Rev. 3:21 ‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Rev. 3:22 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
It is time for the Advent Community, at least those with ears to hear and eyes to see, to repent for their many false doctrines. The church needs to understand that they have incorrectly embraced the OC Sabbath of Moses and not the NC Sabbath of Christ. This is where all Gospel Reform must start for SDAs, and then for all others.
All SDA’s must repent; not only for their great error about the IJ, etc, but also for misunderstanding the Gospel, which features the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. The SDA doctrine of the Sabbath is OC, legalistic, and anti-Christ. It is time for zealous correction of this outrageous error.
Matt. 3:2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
The long overdue discovery and articulation of the correct doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath is paradigm shifting and prophetic. It is a game changer for the blind, confused and self-destructing Advent Movement, and then for all others. This seemingly new doctrine is a sign that the Good Shepherd is leading the Laodicean Church back to the original NC Sabbath; back to a Gospel path of truth and salvation.
When the correct doctrine of the NC Sabbath is understood and preached, so too, the genuine Gospel of Christ. Let all that seek Eternal Life pay close attention to what Jesus teaches about his active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath. This doctrine is critical for those in Laodicea to understand as it represents the genuine Gospel from the genuine Christ.
Let those that have “eyes to see” and “ears to hear” repent of their foolish errors, -- fully embracing the NC, with its active and guilt-free doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.
Is anyone listening? Who today is looking for Gospel Truth?
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
Rev. 3:22 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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The Gospel and the Sabbath
When the Gospel was first preached by Christ, it featured his New Covenant doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, which stunned and angered the Jews. Consequently, all during his ministry there was an ongoing theological dispute between Jesus and the Jews over the Sabbath, which is the reason Christ was sent to the cross. Misunderstand these Sabbath debates and the Gospel cannot be properly comprehended. This is what has happened to the church, which is why every denomination today practices a false doctrine of the Sabbath. They are all blind to the NC teachings of Christ.
Moreover, it is important to note the close relationship between the emerging 1st century Gospel and the Sabbath debates. The NT record shows that when the genuine Gospel is preached, a debate over the Sabbath quickly surfaces. On the other hand, if there is no serious Sabbath debate taking place, then the genuine Gospel is most likely not under discussion. This Gospel pattern applies to us today. Whenever the genuine Gospel is promoted, so too the amazing and controversial 7th day Sabbath of Christ. This NC doctrine clashes with tradition, generating debate from those that do not want to follow Christ.
Adventist Reform understands and promotes the genuine Gospel of Christ, which includes his NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. This is turn creates push back and debate from those that do not know or appreciate the teachings of the genuine Christ. They are content with myths and half-truths, even as they place tradition above the written and clear teachings of Christ.
However, the very debate itself, as well as the emergence of the genuine Sabbath teaching of Christ, is good news. Why? Because it shows that the authentic Gospel, which includes the “amazing” and unexpected Sabbath doctrine of Christ, has emerged for all to ponder. Thus the church is getting closer to understanding the Gospel and the correct doctrine of the Sabbath. Here is more recent discussion and debate over the Gospel and the NC Sabbath of Christ. Let those that seek truth pay attention.
Louie asked: Tom, where, in the New Testament, or for that matter in the whole Bible, did Jesus or the Father ever ask Gentiles to observe any day?
Tom replied: First, you are asking the question incorrectly. This issue is not about “observing” the 4th Commandment as you assert, but the opposite. Jesus teaches that his followers DO NOT have to “observe” the 4th Commandment by resting. (Which does not mean there is no 7th day Sabbath for the church, but that Jesus, the Lord of the Gospel Sabbath, was making major modifications to this creation based, OC Law.)
John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
Jesus teaches that the 4th commandment is not to be observed by his followers, even as he also teaches a guilt free, active Sabbath of Gospel liberty. Here is true “religious freedom” from the guilt of OC law.
John 8:36 “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
Second, the real question is this: what does Jesus, the head theologian of the church teach about the Sabbath? Whatever it is, those that follow him must embrace and practice what he teaches.
Luke 21:33 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
Matt. 10:24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.
Matt. 10:25 “It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master.
Jesus never taught anyone to keep Sunday special, as if it were the NC Sabbath, much less to rest on the 1st or 7th day. Nor did he teach an Every Day spiritual rest as some today claim. The Gospels clearly define Jesus’ Sabbath doctrine for all to see. Only a blind person could fail to see this.
John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
Third, Jesus claims and teaches that his controversial NC doctrine of the Sabbath came from God, and that he was instructed to teach it by his Father.
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
John 7:16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
John 7:17 “If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.
John 8:18 “I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me.”
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
Fourth, The Gospel is for the WORLD, not just the Jews, and so too Jesus’ active, working, 7th day Sabbath that is made for all mankind. Here is the correct Sabbath doctrine for the church, both Jew and Gentile.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Louie said: Jesus came to save His special people. He even told them that he didn't come to… In His ministry we do not see Him going to the Gentile nations and directing them to keep Jewish law.
Tom replied: Jesus teaches that he came to save the WORLD, both Jew and Gentile through the Gospel. But not through the law. Moreover, to follow Christ, it is necessary to be born again as a “spiritual Jew.” Why? Because the Gospel story is 100% Semitic. Any follower of Christ is part of the new Israel of God, thus all that follow Christ are very special. Those that follow Moses are doomed.
John 6:33 “For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
John 12:46 “ I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
John 12:47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
Rom. 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Gal. 6:16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
In addition, Jesus deals with the OC Moral law in his teachings, (which are called the law of Christ). What Jesus teaches is for both Jew and Gentile. Thus, while Moses teaches it sinful to commit adultery, Jesus teaches it is a sin to THINK about lust. Proving that Jesus does teach fundamental Jewish law, even pushing its application deeper.
Matt. 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’;
Matt. 5:28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Surprisingly, Jesus does not do this with the 4th Commandment. He does not teach that thinking about work on the Sabbath is sinful, much less doing work. Why? Because Christ changed the Sabbath Law, reforming it to fit the NC concept of the Priesthood of All Believers. In doing so, he is careful to associate this major change with the OC Sabbath rules of the Levites and the Jewish Creation Story.
To misunderstand Jesus’ Sabbath teaching is to misunderstand the Gospel. All in Laodicea are blind to the Gospel and this explains why they are so very wrong about the doctrine of the NC Sabbath.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Louie said: Never once did He instruct Gentiles to observe any part of the Torah.
Tom replied: Wrong. Jesus instructed his followers to follow the God of Moses and to love him and their neighbors. This instruction by Jesus comes directly from the Torah, as does many other things that Jesus teaches, including the Creation Story and the fact that there is a 7th day Sabbath. Jesus also follows the Torah when he teaches that it is wrong to murder, etc. So your statement is easily shown to be wrong and very foolish.
Mark 10:6 “But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
Matt. 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
Matt. 22:37 And He said to him, “‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’
Matt. 22:38 “This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt. 22:39 “The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’
Matt. 22:40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
Matt. 7:12 “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Louie asked: How do you come to the conclusion He was teaching Christians a new concept of Sabbath observance?
Tom replied: First, how can anyone read the Gospels and conclude that Jesus was not teaching a new doctrine about the Sabbath? From the beginning of Jesus ministry and all the way through, there was great conflict and debate between Christ and the Jews over the 7th day Sabbath. In fact, the Gospels teach that Jesus was sent to the cross specifically because of his position about the Sabbath. Which means Jesus was not teaching the Sabbath of Moses. He was teaching something very different, which they did not like. Listen to the Jews make this point in one of the great Sabbath debates.
John 9:28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses.
John 9:29 “We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man (Jesus), we do not know where He is from.”
John 9:30 The man answered and said to them, “Well, here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes. (On the Sabbath).
How does any rational person conclude that Jesus was NOT teaching a “new” doctrine of the Sabbath from what the Jews had codified from Moses? He certainly was not promoting the 4th Commandment of Moses, which is why the Jews killed him. It is pointless to try and change the Gospel Story. It is what it is. Not what we want it to be, and not what we have all been taught. Everyone has been taught a false view of the Gospel and the Sabbath, which explains why the organized church is so corrupt and dysfunctional. The SDA’s being one of the worst.
Second: the OC Sabbath doctrine, like the OC, was only for Jews. While there was a second, different, Sabbath doctrine for the Levites, this too was only for the Jews. Gentiles could not keep the Sabbath, it was not for them. However, when Jesus starts his Gospel ministry, he immediately promotes a NC doctrine of the Sabbath for all mankind, for both Jew and Gentile, which is based on the active and guiltless Levitical model. All are priests in the NC, thus everyone that follows Christ can work on the 7th day and be guiltless. Such revolutionary theology from Christ was very insulting to the Levites, destroying the entire OC system. This is why the Jews became so angry over Jesus’ NC Sabbath teachings. It was a living parable of the Gospel, which they hated. Christ was changing their entire religious system by removing the Levites, marginalizing the Temple and the Law, and breaking the Sabbath on a weekly basis, - all in the name of God.
Jesus’ Sabbath teaching shocked and stunned the Jews. They could not comprehend what he was saying or why, because they were unprepared for the Gospel. Their religious leaders had misled them just like ours have done today. Many today are just as unprepared, confused, and wrong about the Gospel, even though they claim to know Christ and follow God. Thus the NC Sabbath of Christ seems impossible and very wrong, which is the exact same reaction as the Gospel hating Jews.
Mark 1:22 They were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him.”
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man 2or the Sabbath.
Mark 3:2 They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him.
Mark 3:3 He *said to the man with the withered hand, “Get up and come forward!”
Mark 3:4 And He *said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to kill?” But they kept silent.
Mark 3:5 After looking around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, He *said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored.
Mark 3:6 The Pharisees went out and immediately began conspiring with the Herodians against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.
Luke 4:31 And He came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and He was teaching them on the Sabbath;
Luke 4:32 and they were amazed at His teaching, for His message was with authority.
The Gospel teachings of Jesus are shocking and surprising. His theological views of the Sabbath are amazing, because they reflect the Gospel mind of God. Those today that refuse to believe that Jesus teaches an active and working 7th day Sabbath for the church, - do not correctly comprehend the Word or the Gospel teachings of Christ. This is what happened to the Jews. They hated Christ’s Sabbath teaching as well as his Gospel, which they refused to understand, much less embrace.
Louie said: He certainly didn't instruct his ambassadors to teach Gentiles in Sabbath protocol.
Tom said: Wrong.
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Matt. 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of call the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Matt. 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
Jesus’ Gospel teaching INCLUDES his NC doctrine of the Sabbath. In fact, there are scores and scores of NT passages where Jesus specifically debates the Jews on this topic. Thus the Gospels have a lot for us to “observe” and understand about Jesus Sabbath teaching and theology. Jesus shows how the NC Sabbath is to be practiced. It was one of his favorite topics, featured in all four Gospels. Those that pretend there is no such doctrine, and no such teaching, are repudiating Christ. They will not be saved any more than the Jews that also refuted Jesus’ Sabbath doctrine and sent him to the cross as a Sabbath breaker. What Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath is doctrine for the church. Period.
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Louie said: Not a word is mentioned in all the books of the New Testament about how or when to keep any day.
Tom said: Wrong. Jesus teaches an active, working, guiltless, 7th day Sabbath for all mankind, even as he takes ownership of this special teaching.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Jesus is not claiming Lordship and control over the OC Sabbath of Moses, but of his own NC version that he teaches and defends in the Gospels. Misunderstand this point, and Christ’s Sabbath theology, and the Gospel Story cannot be properly understood.
Louie said: Could it be that you have become fixated in the idea that indeed Jesus taught new covenant Sabbath observance and have not a shred of evidence to back up your fixation?
Tom replied: First, there are about 400 verses in the Gospels that speak about the 7th day Sabbath. Many contain detailed Sabbath debates between Jesus and the Jews. Thus all four Gospels are full of Christ’s NC Sabbath teachings and instruction. THIS is the primary “evidence” necessary to correctly define the NC Sabbath. You are not seeing things clearly if you think there is no such primary evidence to establish the NC Sabbath teachings of Christ.
There is more than enough evidence to define and explain what Jesus teaches and explains about the Sabbath. The fact that many today want to close their eyes to this large amount of Gospel data that condemns their views is hardly new. The Jews did the same thing. They pretended to be blind about Jesus’ Sabbath doctrine, claiming they couldn’t understand it, which led them to become permanently blind to the Gospel. You would know this if you were familiar with the teachings of Jesus.
The Gospel record is clear; there can be no doubt that Jesus teaches a NC doctrine of the Sabbath. The Gospels are full of such instruction. This is why the Sunday Sabbath was developed by the Gentile church. They wanted to follow the NC Sabbath of Christ, not the OC Sabbath of Moses. So they stayed away from the 7th day on purpose. But this was a mistake and thus they failed to get this NC doctrine fully correct.
There is only one correct Sabbath doctrine for the church: the active and working 7th day Sabbath of Christ. There is no Sunday Sabbath whatsoever, much less a 7th day resting Sabbath as the SDA’s teach.
Louie said: He even iterated the following from Matt 5:
"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
From that statement alone it would appear that you don't have a leg to stand on.
Tom said: The true Sabbath of Christ stands on the words of Christ in the Gospels. There are scores of passages in the NT where Jesus teaches, debates, and defends his controversial doctrine of the Sabbath. So rather then assume I have no legs, you need to understand that you have no eyes or ears. You are blind and deaf to the words of Christ, which you refuse to believe.
Why do people persist in misquoting Jesus about the Sabbath? Why are supposed Christians so dishonest and incompetent when it comes to studying the Gospel teachings of Christ? Ignoring the words of Christ is no way to find truth. The critics need to stop with this absurd proof texting method, which ignores scores of passages that prove them wrong. The Gospel cannot be properly understood with such false, insincere, and lazy methodology. Those that seek Gospel truth, must do so with good faith and honest intentions. Lazy pretenders will never understand the Bible, much less the Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Phil. 2:21 For they all seek after their own interests, not those of Christ Jesus.
2Tim. 2:14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
2Tim. 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
Anyone that wants to understand what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, can easily read the Gospels and find the facts. There are so many passages in the Gospels where Jesus teaches about the Sabbath that it is impossible to miss this topic, unless one is closing their eyes of course.
Second, this passage in Matthew is talking about Judaism and the OC law. It makes the same point that Paul later makes about the Schoolmaster or Tutor law in Galatians.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Jesus was the fulfillment of the entire system of Judaism. The OC ended at the cross when Jesus said “It is Finished.”
John 19:30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.
John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/5-17.htm
Moreover, this passage does not explain Jesus’ teaching about the NC Sabbath, nor should anyone use this passage to define the Sabbath when there are scores of explicit passages where Jesus does teach the NC doctrine of the Sabbath. Such a dishonest hermeneutic will not lead to truth. The truth about the Gospel Sabbath of Christ is clearly contained in the Gospel Record. This is all the evidence that anyone needs to understand the Sabbath teachings of Christ. However, those that are blind to the Gospel will never comprehend the NC Sabbath correctly, much less the Gospel. While they claim to understand and follow God, their rejection of Jesus teachings proves them to be lying hypocrites.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Those that reject Christ’s active, guilt-free, 7th day Sabbath will not be given mercy or Eternal Life. Their refusal to embrace the NC Sabbath of God’s Son shows that they are strangers and not true sheep of God.
John 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:8 “All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
Louie said: Jesus was not teaching those Jews to change their Sabbath observance.
Tom replied: Wrong. Of course Jesus was teaching the Jews new doctrine, including a NC Sabbath that they had never imagined existed. Christ went around preaching the Gospel and asking people to follow him and to believe his NC theology. That is why he had an organized group of disciples to follow and represent him. How can you not know this?
John 9:26 So they said to him, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?”
John 9:27 He answered them, “I told you already and you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?”
John 9:28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
While Jesus was not teaching a new day, like Sunday, he was teaching a very different view of the 7th day Sabbath, which stunned the Jews. Why do you think they were so angry with him? The Gospel Sabbath of Christ was very new, different, and contradictory to the Jews. The debate over the Sabbath also reflected the larger debate between the OC and NC. It is a debate that has yet to be fully understood, which is why there is no correct doctrine of the Sabbath at this time in the church.
Jesus was on a Gospel mission from God, which included teaching a new doctrine of the Sabbath for the church. This Gospel Sabbath stunned and divided the Jews, and resulted in Christ going to the cross. This new teaching is why they became so angry. How can anyone read the Gospels and not see that Jesus was promoting a NEW doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath? Most today are blind when it comes to understanding the NT and the Sabbath of Christ. Just like the Jews.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but 1since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Jesus’ amazing NC views affected many things, including the Sabbath, the Law, the Temple and the Priesthood. He changed them all as he changed the OC into the NC.
Matt. 7:28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;
Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him.”
Acts 17:19 And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is which you are proclaiming?
Luke 2:47 And all who heard Him were amazed at His understanding and His answers.
Luke 4:32 and they were amazed at His teaching, for His message was with authority.
Louie said: The law would be their guide until the Lamb of God shed His blood ushering in a completely different and as written better covenant.
Tom replied: Jesus preached the Gospel, forgave sins, and asked people to believe in him for Eternal Life, - BEFORE THE CROSS. The Gospel record is clear on this point. Jesus is the self-proclaimed Good Shepherd that we are to follow. Not Moses. Not the law. Thus the critics of Adventist Reform need to stop promoting myths and errors as if they were the truth. Jesus did not teach the OC, but the NC. They are very different.
John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
In conclusion, those that are sincerely looking for Gospel truth will find it. But those intent on playing games with the Gospel by embracing a false hermeneutic and a false view of the Sabbath will remain blind, unforgiven, and lost. Just like the Jews.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Matt. 15:13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.
Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
I hope this response helps you better understand the NC Sabbath of Christ, the one that was made for all mankind. I suggest that you take the time to read, study, and understand the many Gospel passages where Christ, the Good Shepherd, promotes, debates, and defends his amazing, 7th day, NC Sabbath. Those intent on following the genuine Christ of the Gospels will repent for their false views and come to understand the amazing doctrine of the Sabbath, from the Lord of the Sabbath and High Priest of the Church.
John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
Those, like the SDA’s, that deny Jesus’ active, 7th day doctrine of the Sabbath are denying Christ. They do not know Christ or his Word. They are not Gospel Sheep, but very foolish, lost sheep.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
To misunderstand the NC Sabbath today is to misunderstand Christ and the Gospel Story. Thus the SDA’s are correct to teach the importance of getting the Sabbath doctrine correct. How ironic that they have failed as spectacularly as did the 1st century Jews, and for the same reasons. The SDA’s have a false, OC view of the Sabbath for which they must repent or perish.
2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
2Cor. 3:15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
2Cor. 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
Rom. 11:8 just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
It is time for the church to start paying attention to the teachings of Christ, and to believe his Gospel words of salvation, including what Jesus teaches about the 7th day.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
To “believe” in Christ and his words, means to also believe in his active, guilt free, doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. Those that refuse to embrace what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath will fall under the wrath of God. Just like the Jews.
Ezek. 12:2 “Son of man, you live in the midst of the rebellious house, who have eyes to see but do not see, ears to hear but do not hear; for they are a rebellious house.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris, for New Covenant Reform within the Adventist Community
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The Gospel and the Sabbath
When the Gospel was first preached by Christ, it featured his New Covenant doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, which stunned and angered the Jews.
You can write anything, but can you back up your theory with scripture?
Consequently, all during his ministry there was an ongoing theological dispute between Jesus and the Jews over the Sabbath, which is the reason Christ was sent to the cross. Misunderstand these Sabbath debates and the Gospel cannot be properly comprehended. This is what has happened to the church, which is why every denomination today practices a false doctrine of the Sabbath. They are all blind to the NC teachings of Christ.
Misunderstand or ignore Matt 5:18-19 and I guess you can write anything and think you are correct in your thinking. It was not Jesus intention to change any of the law including the Sabbath while He was teaching and healing. Jesus was not teaching a "working" (laboring) Sabbath for the Jews. He didn't come to do that as He said in Matt 5
Moreover, it is important to note the close relationship between the emerging 1st century Gospel and the Sabbath debates. The NT record shows that when the genuine Gospel is preached, a debate over the Sabbath quickly surfaces. On the other hand, if there is no serious Sabbath debate taking place, then the genuine Gospel is most likely not under discussion. This Gospel pattern applies to us today. Whenever the genuine Gospel is promoted, so too the amazing and controversial 7th day Sabbath of Christ. This NC doctrine clashes with tradition, generating debate from those that do not want to follow Christ.
Jesus never told anyone that they must observe Sabbath or any other day. The Sabbath is not part of the Gospel. Not one Apostle taught keeping a day. Jesus was/is all about saving mankind from our sins. It was the Jewish leaders who fought Jesus because of His healing and eating on their holy day. Jesus didn't come to teach a new covenant sabbath. That is pure bunk.
Adventist Reform understands and promotes the genuine Gospel of Christ, which includes his NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.
You mean you and your mouse understands..... If there were a new covenant doctrine of Sabbath observance then why didn't Jesus' Apostles expound on the subject? Again, yours is pure bunk.
This is turn creates push back and debate from those that do not know or appreciate the teachings of the genuine Christ.
They are content with myths and half-truths, even as they place tradition above the written and clear teachings of Christ.
Only in your eyes Tom.
However, the very debate itself, as well as the emergence of the genuine Sabbath teaching of Christ, is good news. Why? Because it shows that the authentic Gospel, which includes the “amazing” and unexpected Sabbath doctrine of Christ, has emerged for all to ponder. Thus the church is getting closer to understanding the Gospel and the correct doctrine of the Sabbath. Here is more recent discussion and debate over the Gospel and the NC Sabbath of Christ. Let those that seek truth pay attention.
"Where is the meat"? Give us some examples. Matt 5 tells us He didn't change any laws while alive. i guess you know something the remainder of the World is not privy to.
Louie asked: Tom, where, in the New Testament, or for that matter in the whole Bible, did Jesus or the Father ever ask Gentiles to observe any day?
Tom replied: First, you are asking the question incorrectly. This issue is not about “observing” the 4th Commandment as you assert, but the opposite.
Don't evade the question by telling me I didn't ask the question properly. That is very degrading. There are no wrong questions, so please agree or if you can disagree with scripture.
Jesus teaches that his followers DO NOT have to “observe” the 4th Commandment by resting. (Which does not mean there is no 7th day Sabbath for the church, but that Jesus, the Lord of the Gospel Sabbath, was making major modifications to this creation based, OC Law.)
Scripture please, the following is not teaching Jews to work on the Sabbath. Remember Jesus didn't come to change even a tittle of the law. You are definitely off on a tangent.
John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
Jesus teaches that the 4th commandment is not to be observed by his followers, even as he also teaches a guilt free, active Sabbath of Gospel liberty. Here is true “religious freedom” from the guilt of OC law.
Scripture please, remember Matt 5?
John 8:36 “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
WOW! talk about SDAs taking verses out of context, you are a pro.
Second, the real question is this: what does Jesus, the head theologian of the church teach about the Sabbath? Whatever it is, those that follow him must embrace and practice what he teaches.
You tell me with scripture.
Luke 21:33 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
Matt. 10:24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.
Matt. 10:25 “It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master.
Jesus never taught anyone to keep Sunday special, as if it were the NC Sabbath, much less to rest on the 1st or 7th day. Nor did he teach an Every Day spiritual rest as some today claim. The Gospels clearly define Jesus’ Sabbath doctrine for all to see. Only a blind person could fail to see this.
True about Sunday, that is not the issue here. Jesus didn't need to teach Sabbath rest. That was indoctrinated into all of Judaism from Sinai. He did tell us to come to Him for Rest and He didn't specify a day. All days are open to rest in Him.
John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
Third, Jesus claims and teaches that his controversial NC doctrine of the Sabbath came from God, and that he was instructed to teach it by his Father.
Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. If He chooses to break the ritual law it is His privilege. He didn't teach the Jews to break it indiscriminately.
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
John 7:16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
John 7:17 “If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.
John 8:18 “I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me.”
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
Fourth, The Gospel is for the WORLD, not just the Jews,
You got that correct
and so too Jesus’ active, working, 7th day Sabbath that is made for all mankind.
I believe the scripture says it was made for man not mankind, man being Jew man (Israelites) at Sinai Deut 5.
Here is the correct Sabbath doctrine for the church, both Jew and Gentile.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
If the Sabbath was made for everyone then why wasn't it proclaimed to all the World? Why didn't the new Testament writers proclaim the day? Why hasn't all the World conformed ever to a day, any day, if God has made it for everyone?
Louie said: Jesus came to save His special people. He even told them that he didn't come to… In His ministry we do not see Him going to the Gentile nations and directing them to keep Jewish law.
Tom replied: Jesus teaches that he came to save the WORLD, both Jew and Gentile through the Gospel. But not through the law. Moreover, to follow Christ, it is necessary to be born again as a “spiritual Jew.” Why? Because the Gospel story is 100% Semitic. Any follower of Christ is part of the new Israel of God, thus all that follow Christ are very special. Those that follow Moses are doomed.
Scripture on being a "spiritual Jew".
John 6:33 “For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
John 12:46 “ I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
John 12:47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
Rom. 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Gal. 6:16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
In addition, Jesus deals with the OC Moral law in his teachings, (which are called the law of Christ). What Jesus teaches is for both Jew and Gentile. Thus, while Moses teaches it sinful to commit adultery, Jesus teaches it is a sin to THINK about lust. Proving that Jesus does teach fundamental Jewish law, even pushing its application deeper.
Matt. 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’;
Matt. 5:28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.Surprisingly, Jesus does not do this with the 4th Commandment. He does not teach that thinking about work on the Sabbath is sinful, much less doing work. Why? Because Christ changed the Sabbath Law, reforming it to fit the NC concept of the Priesthood of All Believers. In doing so, he is careful to associate this major change with the OC Sabbath rules of the Levites and the Jewish Creation Story.
To misunderstand Jesus’ Sabbath teaching is to misunderstand the Gospel. All in Laodicea are blind to the Gospel and this explains why they are so very wrong about the doctrine of the NC Sabbath.
Jesus changed nothing before His death on the Cross. The law stood until it was finished, finished on the Cross which ushered in the new covenant by His shed blood on the Cross.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Louie said: Never once did He instruct Gentiles to observe any part of the Torah.
Tom replied: Wrong. Jesus instructed his followers to follow the God of Moses and to love him and their neighbors. This instruction by Jesus comes directly from the Torah, as does many other things that Jesus teaches, including the Creation Story and the fact that there is a 7th day Sabbath. Jesus also follows the Torah when he teaches that it is wrong to murder, etc. So your statement is easily shown to be wrong and very foolish.
Jesus came to save the Jews. He offers salvation to all. He was teaching Jews to love, not Gentiles. The lesson does apply to us, but he was directing Himself to the audience of Jews, that was his mission
Mark 10:6 “But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
Matt. 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
Matt. 22:37 And He said to him, “‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’
Matt. 22:38 “This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt. 22:39 “The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’
Matt. 22:40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
Matt. 7:12 “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Louie asked: How do you come to the conclusion He was teaching Christians a new concept of Sabbath observance?
Tom replied: First, how can anyone read the Gospels and conclude that Jesus was not teaching a new doctrine about the Sabbath?
I can and so could you if you would read Matt5: 18-19
From the beginning of Jesus ministry and all the way through, there was great conflict and debate between Christ and the Jews over the 7th day Sabbath. In fact, the Gospels teach that Jesus was sent to the cross specifically because of his position about the Sabbath. Which means Jesus was not teaching the Sabbath of Moses. He was teaching something very different, which they did not like. Listen to the Jews make this point in one of the great Sabbath debates.
Jesus mission was not teaching Sabbath in any form, it was to redeem mankind and the plan was to disgruntle people into thinking He was teaching opposition to Moses so that in a full blown issue would result in Jesus death.
John 9:28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses.
John 9:29 “We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man (Jesus), we do not know where He is from.”
John 9:30 The man answered and said to them, “Well, here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes. (On the Sabbath).
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