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Tom, I understood it was Bob's post I was debating, but thanks for the response. It is interesting.
Tom, the reason former pastors and laity are not embracing your NC Sabbath bit is because we don't see it in the New Covenant. The Sabbath was only for the Israelites and ended with Jesus as did all the law. It was a good shadow, but the reality is Jesus. He is the Christian's rest. We have the living Creator to worship and we do that every day, every day we have rest in Him. Ritual days are not important in the Christian's life. NC Sabbath is a figment of your imagination and cannot be backed up by scripture.
It isn't that we are stubborn or do not want to do the will of Jesus. I think you really know that. We need to focus on loving relationships with those around us not in trying to observe a day that is only a figment of a few people's imagination.
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Bsheilds said: Tom, the reason former pastors and laity are not embracing your NC Sabbath bit is because we don't see it in the New Covenant.
Tom said: First, the NC Sabbath teachings of Christ can be found in all four Gospels. This fact is beyond refutation or debate, - at least for those who can read.
So this discussion is not about Tom Norris’ view of the NC Sabbath, only about what Christ teaches on this point.
While NCT thrives on this myth that Jesus did not teach a Sabbath doctrine for the church, the facts refute their wishful thinking, even as all should condemn them for such self-serving blasphemy.
How can anyone claim that Jesus was silent about the Sabbath? Or that he did not teach a Gospel Sabbath for the church? Such an argument is obviously false. The Gospels are full of Jesus NC Sabbath teaching. The fact that all have misunderstood his view of the Sabbath, and most have embraced Sunday, is beside the point.
Second, many of the SDA pastors that left were not searching for truth. They were just tired of trying to make a living with such bad doctrines. Many, but not all, were more concerned about how they were going to make a living. The fact that Dr. Ford continued to embrace the 7th day, should not have been lost on any that were serious about Gospel theology. Nor did he embrace NCT. In fact, he condemned it, as we all should.
Some that left even thought they would become famous pastors, as soon as they were free from cultic Adventism. Canright fits this mold. But his Sunday based dreams never materialized. Many were interested in starting up their own Sunday keeping churches to support themselves. This is what Richard Fredericks did, and many others as well. They were not searching for truth, or fully listening to Dr. Ford, nor did they give a hoot about the Advent Movement or the 2nd Coming.
http://www.damascus.com/Home.aspx
Moreover, these types quickly embraced NCT, and used it as an excuse to try and make sense of their own confusion and long held errors about the Sabbath. But even so, they all ended up worshiping on SUNDAY. Which is not what NCT teaches. But they don’t care about that detail, because their goal is to fill the seats and make money, and thus they view the Sunday crowd as an easier market to seduce.
Third, the SDA’s don’t like the NC Sabbath of Adventist Reform because it shows how wrong and legalistic they have been all these years. It also ruins their delusions about the IJ, tithe, and Sunday laws. It overturns their OC ways and condemns them for all to see.
So the SDA’s run away from this discussion, unwilling to even try and defend their false, OC view of the 7th day, which is fast losing credibility.
While it was expected that a debate about the IJ would break out, one about the Sabbath was not expected. Thus the SDA’s are stunned that such a new doctrine about the 7th day Sabbath has recently emerged. They never saw it coming, but it is here nonetheless.
At some point the SDA’s must admit they have embraced the WRONG doctrine of the Sabbath and make a much-needed Gospel correction. But it won’t be to NCT. That is false doctrine.
SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836
The fact of the matter is that this discussion about the NC Sabbath is so new, that few have heard about it. And many that have, are shocked there is such a doctrine, even as many have turned to their Bibles to study the teachings of Christ on this point.
Fourth, NCT was invented shortly before the SDA’s became divided and full of schism. Many SDA’s viewed this new Sabbath position as a timely replacement for the OC Legalistic Sabbath of the Adventists that was falling out of favor. Which is why many former SDA’s have embraced this view
However, NCT has turned out to be worthless double-talk, not being close to qualifying for serious Gospel theology. While this crowd was perhaps well meaning, they are also full of anger against the SDA’s, and thus many are not thinking clearly, or objectively.
NCT has become a cult, a group with an agenda to spread a message, which they believe is wonderful truth. But it is not truth, nor is it honest theology.
NCT is the sworn enemy of the Gospel Sabbath. They hate the literal Sabbath, and thus no one should expect them to embrace a position that would undercut the reason why they exist. So they will try their best to fight against Christ’s Sabbath teachings in order to uphold their false doctrine.
NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
Fifth: Those that seriously study the Gospel; will find the NC Sabbath of Christ. Now that this correct view has emerged for all to see and debate, a paradigm change about the Sabbath is inevitable.
When the Gospel is correctly understood, so too the Gospel Sabbath.
Bsheilds said: The Sabbath was only for the Israelites and ended with Jesus, as did all the law.
Tom said: Wrong. Jesus teaches that the NC Sabbath was made for all mankind. He does not teach that it is only made for the Jews. The Greek is clear on this point. The fact that some do not like it is too bad. Jesus teaches what he teaches, regardless of our confused views.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
http://biblos.com/mark/2-27.htm
Bsheilds said: It was a good shadow, but the reality is Jesus. He is the Christian's rest.
Tom said: The repetition of false doctrine does not make it true. The NT does not teach this NCT nonsense about Jesus fulfilling the Sabbath, before he abolished it, so that he could change it into an Every Day spiritualized Sabbath, where everyone meets on Sunday.
This is the problem.
NCT has no support from the NT. They have invented their own false view of Christ and the Sabbath. They have manipulated the NT to make it say what they want to hear.
Let all beware.
Bsheilds said: We have the living Creator to worship and we do that every day, every day we have rest in Him.
Tom said: Those who make up their own doctrines can do whatever they want. But for those that choose to follow the genuine Christ of the Gospels, they cannot play so fast and loose with the Word.
So you can play Sabbath everyday if you want, and pretend that the law has been fulfilled, abolished, and then changed into an Every Day experience of rest; but those who do so are not following the Word. Nor will they be granted Eternal Life. They are lawless, understanding neither the law nor the Gospel.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Bsheilds said: Ritual days are not important in the Christian's life.
Tom said: Wrong. Every time the church practices the Lord’s Supper, on whatever day, they are following an important church ritual, and so too any that meet on the 7th day NC Sabbath to hear the Gospel, and fellowship with the church.
Those who think such things are not important have not been paying attention to the teachings of Christ. He teaches that the NC Sabbath is very important, - which is why he went to the cross; he refused to give up this important Gospel doctrine.
Bsheilds said: NC Sabbath is a figment of your imagination and cannot be backed up by scripture.
Tom said: Ha! This is comical, and ironic.
While the NC Sabbath of Christ can be supported by numerous passages from the NT, it is NCT that is mythical and absurd. There is not one text in the entire Bible where Jesus teaches this nonsense, - but they don’t care. They are on a mission to wipe out the Sabbath as a literal doctrine, refuting Christ in the process.
Bsheilds said: It isn't that we are stubborn or do not want to do the will of Jesus. I think you really know that.
Tom said: Those who deny what Christ so clearly teaches, are being stubborn and rebellious. NCT teaches blasphemy and great error. Their views are based on myths, false assumptions, and sloppy hermeneutics. Those who are so blind to deny what Jesus teaches are doing so on purpose. They do NOT want to “do the will of Jesus.”
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
Those that follow NCT are blind. They cannot see or hear the Good Shepherd. They do not know his voice or his teachings.
Bsheilds said: We need to focus on loving relationships with those around us not in trying to observe a day that is only a figment of a few people's imagination.
Tom said: During one of the many debates over the Sabbath, the religious leaders concluded that Jesus view of the Sabbath was a figment of his imagination. They thought he had lost his mind, which had been possessed by the devil.
John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”
Those today that mock the NC Sabbath under discussion, are joining the enemies of Christ.
No Christian can call the Sabbath of Christ a delusion, denying the Gospel record, and think that Christ will save them. Hardly. They have fallen from grace. They are not doing the loving thing, but rather, they are refuting Christ and wasting his love by denying his Words.
This is not love, but apostasy. To love Christ is to follow his teaching. Not deny what he teaches.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
It is time for those who claim to follow Christ, to repent and do so. Enough of this religious double-talk from those with vested interests and self-serving motives. The Gospel is calling out to those that honestly seek Eternal Life.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Gospel Reform
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While the NC Sabbath of Christ can be supported by numerous passages from the NT, it is NCT that is mythical and absurd. There is not one text in the entire Bible where Jesus teaches this nonsense, - but they don’t care. They are on a mission to wipe out the Sabbath as a literal doctrine, refuting Christ in the process.
Tom
All I can say to that is put em up or shut up. I keep reading that you have "numerous verses", but you have never, to my knowledge, displayed them. You are quick to display verses of condemnation of NCC, why is it so hard to display all those verses that point to a NCS? Unless by chance you have no real verses and all this is a figment of an overactive imagination.
Bsheilds said: We need to focus on loving relationships with those around us not in trying to observe a day that is only a figment of a few people's imagination.
Tom said: During one of the many debates over the Sabbath, the religious leaders concluded that Jesus view of the Sabbath was a figment of his imagination. They thought he had lost his mind, which had been possessed by the devil.
John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”
Those today that mock the NC Sabbath under discussion, are joining the enemies of Christ.
No Christian can call the Sabbath of Christ a delusion, denying the Gospel record, and think that Christ will save them. Hardly. They have fallen from grace. They are not doing the loving thing, but rather, they are refuting Christ and wasting his love by denying his Words.
This is not love, but apostasy. To love Christ is to follow his teaching. Not deny what he teaches.
Why you even wrote what you did is a mystery. It is blather unless you prove that Jesus taught a modified worthless Sabbath observance.
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Tom the Lord's Supper in not a ritual day. If you would take time to digest what I write you would see things like the fact that I was writing about ritual days not the ritual of the Lord's Supper. Debating with you isn't easy. It is like squeezing more juice out of an already squeezed lemon.
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Bsheilds said: Tom the Lord's Supper in not a ritual day.
Tom said: I understand. I was making the point that “ritual” is important in the church. You were saying otherwise.
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YOU said: Ritual days are not important in the Christian's life.
I replied: Wrong. Every time the church practices the Lord’s Supper, on whatever day, they are following an important church ritual, and so too any that meet on the 7th day NC Sabbath to hear the Gospel, and fellowship with the church.
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In other words, the NC does have ceremonial laws, including the SABBATH. This is my point. Did you miss it? I think so. Jesus teaches (and practices) that the Sabbath "rituals" of meeting together to hear the Word and Pray to God on the 7th day IS IMPORTANT. So if the (Reformed) Sabbath is important to Jesus, (and it was), it must be important for the church.
Many deny the NC has ceremonial laws and rituals. This is a mistake.
Besides the Eucharist, which is the greatest of all rituals, there is baptism, and singing, prayer and the reading from the scriptures on the 7th day, as well as some others.
These are Gospel rituals for the church, INCLUDING the 7th day Sabbath of Christ. Which is a special day of the week for the congregation to come together and practice a number of Gospel rituals.
So there is a ceremonial aspect to the Sabbath and this is not wrong, nor should it be denied, as the SDA’s teach. There is also a Moral aspect, which Jesus also acknowledges. So it is BOTH.
It is very wrong for people to think there are no ceremonial laws in the church, or that the 7th day Sabbath is invalidated or wrong because it is ceremonial in nature. Nonsense. The Sabbath, meaning either the OC version or the reformed NC doctrine, are both Moral and Ceremonial. This is my point. To say that the Sabbath is ceremonial is no defense to the NC Sabbath of Christ. (Although many think otherwise.)
Note this exchange between a TSDA and a critic. They are both wrong, even as the critic, Sal, is being honest and polite, while the SDA’s is being rude and obnoxious.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -god-1.htm
Here is some typical, incorrect thinking about this issue:
Is the Sabbath a Moral Law or a Ceremonial Law?
Although the seventh-day Sabbath has a basis in what God did once, the six-one cycle does not reflect what God is eternally. Although the weekly Sabbath rest looked forward to the eternal rest we have in salvation, the six-one cycle of work and rest is not an eternal one. The seventh-day Sabbath is not a universal or eternal law.
Instead, the Sabbath has characteristics of a ceremonial law.
Although people might figure out that regular rest is good for us, it is not likely that they would figure exactly one day out of seven, and even more unlikely that they would naturally figure out that it must be the seventh.
This specific detail had to be specially revealed. Of course, if God says that we have to keep this detail, then we do. That’s the same for any law, ceremonial or otherwise. My point is that the details of the Sabbath command are like ceremonial laws in that they have to be specially revealed.
http://www.gci.org/law/sabbath/moral
See also:
http://www.bible.ca/7-sabb=moral.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm
http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/morallaw.html
SDA’s Refute the Ceremonial Sabbath
Of course the SDA’s are also confused about this. They refuse to believe that the Sabbath has any ceremonial aspects to it, fearful that if admitted, it will cease to be Moral law. Nonsense. Listen to the SDA’s:
Is the Sabbath a Ceremonial Law or Moral Law?
I have been asked the question “Is the Sabbath a Ceremonial Law?”
This is one question I never thought I would have to deal with, as the answer is so obvious to those who understand scripture.
Those teaching the Lord's Sabbath is a Ceremonial Law (Sacrificial law) rather than a Moral Law either have a poor understanding of scripture or are badly deceived.
You cannot say you love God with all your heart and then look for ways to manipulate scripture to avoid a Commandment of God that defines it is Him we love and worship.
Those teaching this fallacy have also implied that God made a foolish mistake when He put the fourth Commandment into what is obviously a Moral Law. Since there is always so much confusion between laws in scripture, we will cover this question in extensive detail starting with defining these two laws.
http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/is- … l-law.html
The point here is to understand that there are ceremonial laws in the church, INCLUDING the Sabbath. So there can be, - and there is, - a weekly Sabbath for the church. It can be viewed as being ceremonial, even as it can also be viewed as part of the Moral law, clearly embedded in the heart of the 10 Commandments and upheld by Christ, - in a reformed manner.
Does this help?
Bsheilds said: If you would take time to digest what I write you would see things like the fact that I was writing about ritual days not the ritual of the Lord's Supper.
Tom said: Bob, NCT has no substance to digest. There is nothing there but trite “proof texting” with lots of anger directed against any form of a literal Sabbath. Sorry.
Bsheilds said: Debating with you isn't easy. It is like squeezing more juice out of an already squeezed lemon.
Tom said: I am not trying to be difficult. It’s just that your views are incompatible with the Gospel Record and thus mutually exclusive to what I promote.
You follow a strange Christ, one that is very different from the genuine Gospel version. I want nothing to do with this fraud, but you are free to misread the NT all you want.
I am careful to follow what the NT teaches about the Sabbath, while the NCT crowd is taking absurd and impossible views, even denying that Jesus teaches a NC Sabbath for the church.
There is no compromise between our views, nor should there be. Besides, NCT has been discredited for all to see on this site. Those that have worked so hard to defend and promote it have been soundly defeated, regardless if they admit it or not. NCT is garbage. Sorry.
NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
The Sabbath and the Church
It does not matter how many mistakes the church has made, they were correct to teach a weekly Sabbath, which was called the NC Lord’s Day, Sunday.
The church has been practicing a weekly Sabbath from the very beginning of Christ’s ministry, - for about 2,000 years. Even to this very day, all churches practice a weekly Sabbath, aka Lord’s Day.
Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
Moreover, no matter how many errors the SDA’s have made, there are still correct to say that Sunday is wrong, and only the 7th day is the proper day for the NC Sabbath. Even though they are still wrong about the doctrine like everyone else in Laodicea, they still have some worthwhile truth, which should not be overlooked.
Just before the 2nd Coming, a portion of the church will repent and embrace the genuine Gospel, which will include the correct doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. The one that Jesus teaches in all four Gospels.
This new Sabbath doctrine will be different from what the Sunday keeping churches and SDA’s teach. This is the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ that you cannot seem to comprehend.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Adventist Reform will go forward and continue to push for genuine and much needed Sabbath Reform in the church, while you promote the destruction of the Sabbath and the repudiation of what Jesus teaches in the Gospels through NCT.
So there is no debate. We have two different views and agendas.
You can pretend you don’t understand the 7th day Gospel Sabbath all you want. The Jews did the same thing, and look where that got them?
It was not a good idea for them to reject Jesus or his Gospel Sabbath, but legions still do it today and think they are following God. Proving that the Gentiles are as dull and foolish as the Jews.
Remember, while the Gospel is freely given to all, only a few will embrace it and go forward to understand the teachings of Christ. Many are only pretenders who follow false teachers, like NCT, which is nothing more than confused heresy.
After all this time, if you still can’t tell the difference between the genuine Gospel Sabbath and what NTC teaches, then there is no hope for you. These things are obviously beyond your understanding, and thus it is a waste of time to try and make good seed grow from bad soil.
Mark 4:9 And He was saying, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Mark 4:10 As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables.
Mark 4:11 And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,
Mark 4:12 so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.”
Mark 4:13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How will you understand all the parables?
Mark 4:14 “The sower sows the word.
Mark 4:15 “These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them.
Mark 4:16 “In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy;
Mark 4:17 and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.
Mark 4:18 “And others are the ones on whom seed was sown among the thorns; these are the ones who have heard the word,
Mark 4:19 but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Mark 4:20 “And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.”
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris, for the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ
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Tom said:
In other words, the NC does have ceremonial laws, including the SABBATH. This is my point. Did you miss it? I think so. Jesus teaches (and practices) that the Sabbath "rituals" of meeting together to hear the Word and Pray to God on the 7th day IS IMPORTANT. So if the (Reformed) Sabbath is important to Jesus, (and it was), it must be important for the church.
Tom then you would have called the day a child was circumcised, Circumcision Day??You are taking things a little far. Under the NC the Lord's supper could be held on any day, as could the assembly of the congregation.
I heard a TSDA say the reason that they kept Saturday Sabbath instead of anyother day, that they want to show up when God did, not to miss Him. WOW, that negates all the better promises of the NC. Access is given to Jesus any day any hour any minute. The only requirement is to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. Heb 10:25
Hope this helps.
Bob Sands for better understanding of the New Covenant/Kingdom of God.
Last edited by bob_2 (04-11-12 4:24 pm)
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Tom note the reasoning of this author:
We find additional evidence that the Sabbath is ceremonial in that God himself does not keep the Sabbath. He rested once, but a six-one cycle is not part of his eternal nature. Nor do angels keep the Sabbath; it is not an inherent part of the way good creatures show love to God or to one another. The Sabbath is not eternal, for it did not exist before creation, and I do not believe that it will be relevant in the new heavens/new earth. The Sabbath is not God's nature, nor universal, nor timeless. It fails these tests of a moral law.
http://www.gci.org/law/sabbath/letter2
Because Jesus spoke about the Sabbath while on earth, He was born under that law. The law of circumcision and the Sabbath and festival days and animal sacrifice. Because Jesus did these things, did He implement a Reformed version as you suggest He did for the Sabbath. If so what were they? To be consistent, right???
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Tom note the reasoning of this author:
We find additional evidence that the Sabbath is ceremonial in that God himself does not keep the Sabbath. He rested once, but a six-one cycle is not part of his eternal nature. Nor do angels keep the Sabbath; it is not an inherent part of the way good creatures show love to God or to one another. The Sabbath is not eternal, for it did not exist before creation, and I do not believe that it will be relevant in the new heavens/new earth. The Sabbath is not God's nature, nor universal, nor timeless. It fails these tests of a moral law.
http://www.gci.org/law/sabbath/letter2
Because Jesus spoke about the Sabbath while on earth, He was born under that law. The law of circumcision and the Sabbath and festival days and animal sacrifice. Because Jesus did these things, did He implement a Reformed version as you suggest He did for the Sabbath. If so what were they? To be consistent, right???
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Tom, follow this author's reasoning of Jesus teaching about the Sabbath. He does not have a Reformed view but explains to the Pharisees their contradiction and intellectual dishonesty:
The Pharisees were not interpreting the Scriptures in the right way. Jesus pointed out this out by mentioning the example of David: "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread — which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests" (verses 3-4).
The law said that showbread was holy and was to be eaten, without exception, by priests. And yet David did it and was presumed innocent. It was not lawful according to the letter of the law,14 and yet it was permitted in the purpose of God's spiritual law. Jesus' point here regarding the Sabbath is that the letter of the law is not a reliable guide to holiness. People should be judged on the heart, not on superficial actions.
Jesus gave another example in verses 5-6: "Haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here." Jesus says that the priests "desecrate" the Sabbath day. They are, according to the letter of the Sabbath law, doing something that is not lawful. But yet their work was permitted because it was temple work. Something was more important than the Sabbath, and that something was the temple. The temple and its sacrificial rites were more important than the Sabbath and superseded it.
Jesus, however, is more important than the temple and its sacrifices. The logical conclusion is that he is also more important than the Sabbath. Even before his death and resurrection, he was more important than the Sabbath.15
The Pharisees, instead of worrying about a little activity on a holy day, ought to have been concerned with how they were treating the Holy One of Israel, who was standing before them. They should have worshipped him instead of looking to old covenant holy places and instead of using old covenant holy times to judge the Giver of those times. The Sabbath was holy only because God had designated it so, and here was God himself. They should have accepted without question whatever he did, and they should have followed his example!
Jesus then summarized his argument about the Sabbath and about his own identity: "If you had known what these words mean, `I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" (verses 7-8).
Jesus is telling the Pharisees that love for humans is more important than sticking to worship rituals. Holy bread can be given to ordinary people when they are hungry. Holy time can be used in an ordinary way when people are hungry. If the Pharisees had understood the intent of the law, they would not have been criticizing the disciples. They would have been merciful, not judgmental.
Jesus ends the discussion with his claim to be Lord of the Sabbath — someone who had more authority than the God-given Sabbath did. It is not just that Jesus claimed to have a more accurate understanding of how the day should be kept — he claimed to be more important than the day itself. It was a stupendous claim, and it is no surprise that some Pharisees thought he blasphemed and deserved to die (verse 14).
Jesus' next activity gives a practical demonstration not only of his authority over the Sabbath, but also the proper use for the Sabbath in the old covenant. "Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, `Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?' " (verses 9-10). The Pharisees seem to be baiting Jesus, confronting him with a situation to test him. Healing was one of the types of work they said was unlawful.
But Jesus again pointed out the hypocrisy in their approach. They would rescue a sheep on the Sabbath (verse 11) — thus even a sheep was more important than resting on the Sabbath — and yet they were so strict that they didn't allow human needs, whether hunger or healing, to be taken care of on the Sabbath. Their rules were a terrible distortion of what the Sabbath should have been. "How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" (verse 12). This is what Jesus taught about the Sabbath. Don't worry about prohibiting work — be more concerned about doing good.
So Jesus healed the man, and the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus. They thought the holy day was more important than the One who had made it holy.
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Matt 12: 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Rev 21:22 "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it".
God is the temple. God is the sabbath. "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself" 2Cor 5:19
withe the anointing of the Holy Spirit, we are in Him and He in us everyday just as Jesus is in the Father and the Father in Him. He prayed that we also would have this experience. that's why "we sit with Him in heavenly places" everyday. We are in Sabbath rest every day in Him and He in us.
John 17:21-John 17:21-23
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
SDAism has many problems that keep coming up continually; the same ones over and over again. But they continue to work on their plan. It's called the close your eyes and hope the problem goes away plan.
Here's a bit of advice from our heavenly Father: "Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself" ? Eccl 7:16 ...Don't think you're perfect and have all the truth.
"Better is a poor and a wise child than an old and foolish king, who will no more be admonished". Eccl 4:13
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Cadge
Last edited by cadge (04-11-12 10:45 pm)
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Cadge, Rev 21:22 says that there is no Temple in heaven, but this has to be after the full Plan of Salvation is completed. Note this author's explanation:
The heavenly Temple itself is temporary until the completion of God’s plan when there is a “New heaven” and a “New Earth”. (Revelation 21-22). When the saints from the Old Testament, New Testament and Millennium periods will be citizens of the New Jerusalem and dwell with God for all eternity.
But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. Revelation 21:22
http://www.truthnet.org/Christianity/Hebrews/Hebrews8/
I never realized this before. SDAs have made the Heavenly Sanctuary out to be permanent which is against Scripture, right???
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While it is true that there has been endless debate about the Sabbath for centuries, - the SDA’s have failed to make their case, so too the Sunday keepers. So I realize that this issue has not been resolved by the church, which leaves it open to further examination and discussion.
However, NCT is not up to the task. It is not a solution to the Sabbath conundrum, just another failed attempt to comprehend the teachings of Christ on this point. NCT does not work. It is no solution to the Sabbath debate.
Today, there is no use for anyone to try and defend NCT. This anti-Sabbath nonsense is as bad as anything the SDA’s, RC’s, or the Mormons teach. It is against the Gospel.
Tom said again: In other words, the NC does have ceremonial laws, including the SABBATH. This is my point. Did you miss it? I think so.
Jesus teaches (and practices) that the Sabbath "rituals" of meeting together to hear the Word and Pray to God on the 7th day IS IMPORTANT.
So if the (Reformed) Sabbath is important to Jesus, (and it was), it must be important for the church.
Bob replied: Tom, then you would have called the day a child was circumcised, Circumcision Day??
Tom said: The Jews did what they did. We have no authority to try and change history or make up days or doctrines.
Judaism featured the 7th day Sabbath as part of their culture and tradition. It is found in both the Moral and ceremonial portions of their law.
They also had the very important ritual of circumcision, which was not set on any specific day. Rather, it took place on the 8th day after birth. Thus, it could, and did fall on the Sabbath, where this ritual would still be observed.
Luke 2:21 And when eight days had passed, before His circumcision, His name was then called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.
John 7:22 “For this reason Moses has given you circumcision (not because it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and on the Sabbath you circumcise a man.
John 7:23 “If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath?
Bob said: You are taking things a little far. Under the NC the Lord's Supper could be held on any day, as could the assembly of the congregation.
Tom said: Circumcision could be on any day for the Jew. And so too the Lord’s Supper for the Christian. What does this prove? Nothing to undercut the NC Sabbath.
Furthermore, you are wrong to think that the congregation could stop work and meet on any day. No. The Jews could not do any such a thing. Judaism was not a democracy where people could make up their own religious or social rules.
The Jews worked 6 days of the week, and then they all (except for the Priests), stopped working on the 7th day. Why? In order to meet together and embrace the ritual of worship. The Jews did not meet regularly on any other day, except for the 7th day Sabbath.
This fact of Jewish history is not up for debate by the confused, 21st century Gentiles. Sorry.
So there is no debate about the Sabbath, as you think. It is a fact of history, both the OC version and the NC one that we are discussing. The Bible contains a clear record of these two different but related Sabbath doctrines.
It is shameful that so few understand this doctrine. And double shame on the SDA’s, they were supposed to be the Sabbath experts and lead everyone to the Gospel Sabbath. What happened?
Answer: 1888, the Battle Creek Schism, followed by the relocation to Takoma Park. Then the White Estate covered up the 1888 debate and misled the church so that they became confused and repeated what happened in Battle Creek. This was Glacier View, and the start of another great schism that is still ongoing today. THIS explains why they have had such a hard time trying to understand correct doctrine. They have long ago repudiated the Gospel and their quest for Present Truth.
Bob said: I heard a TSDA say the reason that they kept Saturday Sabbath, instead of any other day, is that they wanted to show up when God did, not to miss Him.
Tom said: This is a slam against Sunday. I get it. But there is more to the NC Sabbath doctrine than what the SDA’s understand.
The SDA’s have the right day, but not the right doctrine, so they are not meeting God on the 7th day as they pretend. They are acting like the Jews, who also had the correct day, and also repudiated the Gospel Sabbath of Christ, rebelling against God.
Bob said: WOW, that negates all the better promises of the NC. Access is given to Jesus any day any hour any minute. The only requirement is to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. Heb 10:25
Tom said: Like I said, the SDA’s have the right day but the wrong Sabbath doctrine. They don’t understand the Gospel or the NC Sabbath of Christ, and neither does the NCT crowd or the Sunday Keepers.
Bob said: Because Jesus spoke about the Sabbath while on earth, He was born under that law. The law of circumcision and the Sabbath and festival days and animal sacrifice.
Tom said: While Jesus was born under the OC, Jesus preached, taught, and promoted the Gospel. Including a reformed and active NC doctrine of the Sabbath that infuriated the Jews.
He did not preach circumcision or teach that the OC sacrifices or Temple would endure. Rather, he taught that OC Judaism was to be destroyed, even as he was the Lamb of God who would take away the sins of the word through the cross.
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Matt. 24:2 And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”
Luke 22:37 “For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.”
Bob said: Because Jesus did these things, did He implement a Reformed version as you suggest He did for the Sabbath. If so what were they? To be consistent, right???
Tom said: The record is clear that Jesus taught a reformed, active, NC Sabbath for the church. Why anyone would want to take issue with such a plain and obvious fact of the Gospels is very strange.
Jesus was sent to the cross in large part because of his reformed view of the Sabbath. He taught a Sabbath doctrine that was so different and strange, that the OC minded Jews could not comprehend it. It made no sense to their legalistic minds.
The record is also clear that Jesus taught a NC version of the OC Passover, which is the Eucharist.
So Jesus is very “consistent” with how he teaches the Gospel. It is NCT that is confused and disoriented, not Christ.
Bob said: Tom, follow this author's reasoning of Jesus teaching about the Sabbath. He does not have a Reformed view but explains to the Pharisees their contradiction and intellectual dishonesty:
Tom said: You never quote anyone unless they mirror your own confusion. But this debate rests on facts, not how many people support this or that position.
Let’s see what they say.
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Jesus and the Sabbath
Jesus kept the Sabbath (Luke 4:16). Was he teaching us how to observe the Sabbath properly so we could follow his example (1 John 2:6)?
http://www.gci.org/law/sabbath3
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Tom said: It’s good to see that some of the NCT crowd has stopped denying that Jesus deals with the Sabbath. This delusion has become tiresome, even as it was absurd to begin with. The Gospels are full of Jesus NC Sabbath teaching.
Here’s the bad news: Although this crowd now acknowledges some passages about Jesus and the Sabbath, they still find a way to misunderstand the Gospel, and get it wrong.
So it looks like it is going to take some time for this crowd, who thought that Paul was the Lord of the Sabbath, to understand the genuine Sabbath of Christ. After all, they have just started to look at what Jesus teaches. At least that is a start.
Let’s see how they did?
Not very well.
They have made a major mistake from the onset. Do you see it?
Here is the first mistake: Jesus did not keep the OC Sabbath as they assume. Where did they come up with this point?
Who said, “Jesus kept the OC Sabbath?
Not the NT! The Gospels teach the opposite.
So why state an incorrect point and then go forward to try and explain it? This is very defective and dishonest thinking. Awful hermeneutics.
From the very beginning, this article is based on a false assumption. Jesus did NOT “keep” the OC, 7th day Sabbath of the Jews. He broke it! Which is very different from saying he kept it.
The NT does not teach that Jesus obeyed the OC Sabbath. Anyone that takes such a view is repudiating the Gospel Story. Which explains why the rest of the article is going to be false.
The article continued: Jesus lived sinlessly under the old covenant requirements (Hebrews 4:15). He was born under the law, while the old covenant was still in force (Galatians 4:4). He observed old covenant customs such as participating in the sacrifice of Passover lambs, tithing to the Levites, telling cleansed people to make offerings as prescribed by Moses, and he observed cultural customs such as Hanukkah.
Tom said: It is another error to think that Jesus was bound by the OC, as if he could not take any NC positions. This is false. His very birth was in violation of the OC, and so too many things he did and taught. Including his new view of the Sabbath, which was not OC, but NC in nature and definition.
The article said: Because of Jesus' historical context, Christians should be careful about using his example in specific cultural circumstances. We do not have to follow his custom, for example, of going to synagogues.
Tom said: Wow! Now comes a warning to be careful not to follow Jewish culture. As if Jesus was not a Jew, and that the Christian Faith is not 100% Jewish.
The author is trying to say that we don’t have to follow Jesus view of the Sabbath, because it was an OC Jewish view. But this assumption is wrong. Jesus was not teaching an OC view of the Sabbath, but a radical, NC doctrine.
The author said: Jesus never told anyone to keep the Sabbath.
Tom said: First off, this is true - for the OC Sabbath. Jesus never taught the OC Sabbath of Moses. In fact, he taught people how to break it and be guiltless.
The NT is clear that Jesus did teach, promote, and defend, an active and reformed, NC Sabbath. This is what the Gospels show; this is the correct Sabbath for the church.
Of course this NC view of the Sabbath cannot be “kept,” in the same sense as the OC Sabbath, where it is sinful to work, and forced rest is the way to keep the 7th day holy. This was a very difficult and uncomfortable Sabbath, full of rules, regulations, and any many restrictions. The NC Sabbath is much different, active, and free.
The NC Sabbath is part of the Gospel. It is part of the NC teachings of Christ. It can be understood, acknowledged, and embraced by those that follow Christ’s Gospel teachings.
Any that are ashamed of Jesus view of the Sabbath, will not be granted Eternal Life. The same goes for any that ignore his Words on any other point.
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Mark 13:31 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
John 8:47 “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
The author continues: Although we are told various things that he did on the Sabbath, we are never told that he rested. According to the Gospels, what he did and taught on the Sabbath was consistently liberal. Let us examine the Gospels to see what the writers were inspired to preserve about Jesus' teachings regarding the Sabbath.
Tom said: It was the OC Sabbath that featured REST. The NC Sabbath of Christ features activity and work. So the author is confused and wrong, unable to comprehend the Gospel Story correctly.
In addition, what is this new term for Jesus Sabbath views? Liberal. What kind of theological term is this? The NCT crowd needs to stop making things up. This is their stock in trade; they invent whatever they want to defend their false views. Sad.
Jesus actions on the Sabbath day were not “liberal,” but rather Gospel based. Because he was changing the Priesthood, and making everyone a priest, this allowed all to receive an exemption from the law against work in the 4th Commandment.
Thus the Gospel Sabbath underscores and re-enforces the Gospel, as well as Jesus authority over the law and the priesthood.
The author said: The Pharisees were not interpreting the Scriptures in the right way. Jesus pointed out this out by mentioning the example of David: "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread — which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests" (verses 3-4).
The law said that showbread was holy and was to be eaten, without exception, by priests. And yet David did it and was presumed innocent. It was not lawful according to the letter of the law,14 and yet it was permitted in the purpose of God's spiritual law.
Tom said: First off, it takes little insight to conclude that the Pharisees did not view the scriptures correctly. Jesus often makes this point.
Second, what is this double talk about it being ok to break the law because “it was permitted in the purpose of God's spiritual law.”?
What is this new “spiritual law” that the author invented?
How can another undefined “spiritual law” overturn laws that pertained to the Temple? Do the Jews have competing laws?
Besides, the law is spiritual, so what is the author trying to say? There is an unspiritual law?
Rom. 7:12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Rom. 7:13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
Rom. 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
The author makes no sense. Those that make up theological terms, invent phantom doctrines, and try to revise history, are never going to understand the Gospel Story correctly. NCT needs lots of myths and double talk to survive. Sad. But this is the way it is with all cults, and NCT is nothing more than another new cult, trying to promote their twisted views.
This NCT article continued: Jesus' point here regarding the Sabbath is that the letter of the law is not a reliable guide to holiness.
Tom said: Wrong. Since when is the law wrong? And when did Jesus start attacking the law and finding fault with it?
Matt. 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
Rom. 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
This author is very confused. There is no way they are going to understand the Gospel Sabbath with so many false assumptions and errors. They have missed the real point of Jesus Sabbath teaching.
The author said: People should be judged on the heart, not on superficial actions.
Tom said: Wow! So the problem here is with the law; and that it must learn to overlook minor sins, looking to the intent of the heart?
This makes no sense. The law cannot overlook anything minor, even as it drills deep into the heart to condemn for the slightest bad thought, much less action.
Did not Jesus apply the law to our very thoughts? Did he not teach that to be angry is the same as to murder, and to look the wrong way is sin? Jesus teaches that a superficial thought can be very sinful.
Matt. 5:20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt. 5:21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’
Matt. 5:22 “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court
Matt. 5:28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
This author is way in over his or her head. They have no idea what they are saying…proving once again that the NCT crowd is full of double-talk and error.
The Sabbath of Christ has nothing to do with this idea that the law is too picky or that it does not mean what it says. When the Pharisees accused Jesus and his disciples of breaking the Sabbath law, they were. Jesus knew that.
The author said: Jesus gave another example in verses 5-6: "Haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here." Jesus says that the priests "desecrate" the Sabbath day.
They are, according to the letter of the Sabbath law, doing something that is not lawful. But yet their work was permitted because it was temple work. Something was more important than the Sabbath, and that something was the temple. The temple and its sacrificial rites were more important than the Sabbath and superseded it.
Tom said: The work of the Temple represented the Gospel. Jesus even more so. The Gospel trumps law. This is the point.
However, do not be fooled, what they did was still unlawful. Which is why Jesus admits this point and says the priests “desecrated” the Sabbath day by working. They broke the law and were innocent.
The Jewish Priests has an EXEMPTION that allowed them to work on the 7th day. Thus they had a DIFFERENT doctrine of the Sabbath, one in which they were very active, while the non- priests (all the rest of Israel), were forbidden under pain of death to work on the 7th day.
So the Priests were EXEMPTED from the letter of the Sabbath law, which allowed them to break and still be innocent. Misunderstand this point, and the NC Sabbath will make little sense.
Thus Jesus is saying that the Gospel is greater than the law, including the Sabbath law of the 4th Commandment. While the OC featured the Sabbath of Moses, the NC features the Sabbath of Christ. The latter is greater than the former.
The author said: Jesus, however, is more important than the temple and its sacrifices. The logical conclusion is that he is also more important than the Sabbath.
Tom said: Logical conclusion? What is going on here? Is this is contest between Jesus and the Sabbath? Hardly.
Jesus makes it clear that he is above the Sabbath law, even in charge of it. But that does not mean it has no value or importance. Much less that is has been abolished by him, which is something that Jesus NEVER taught.
The NCT crowd is so reckless with the scriptures, that they have no idea what the NT teaches about the law and the Gospel, much less the Sabbath. They are as confused and wrong as the SDA’s, from where so many escaped. Thus many have only gone from one cult to another, misunderstanding the Gospel in the process.
The author said: Even before his death and resurrection, he was more important than the Sabbath.15
Tom said: This is a false point. Of course Jesus is the Lord of all, even of the Sabbath. Who is saying otherwise?
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
However, if Jesus is so important, why do so many ignore, refute, and revise what he teaches about the Sabbath? Those who pretend that Jesus is important, and yet still refuse to follow his teachings, are doomed. They are just pretenders.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Luke 6:47 “Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like:
Luke 6:48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.
Luke 6:49 “But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”
NCT is built on sand. So too any Sabbath doctrine that embraces Sunday, or this OC view where work is forbidden on the Sabbath.
This article continued: The Pharisees, instead of worrying about a little activity on a holy day, ought to have been concerned with how they were treating the Holy One of Israel, who was standing before them.
Tom said; So the Pharisees should have been more flexible with their view of the OC Sabbath and the Law? Ha! This is comical. What kind of law is it that does not mean what it says?
If Moses put a man to death for gathering sticks to make a fire on the 7th day, where is the flexibility for this doctrine? There is none. The law is the law.
Ex. 31:12 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Ex. 31:13 “But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.
Ex. 31:14 ‘Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex. 31:15 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.
Ex. 31:16 ‘So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.’
Ex. 31:17 “It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.”
Ex. 31:18 When He had finished speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, He gave Moses the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of God.
The Pharisees were protecting the law of God as it had been written and enforced for generations. Their error was to misunderstand that there was a change taking place in the OC, it was moving forward to the NC.
But they wanted no such change. They liked the way things were set up, - with them in charge. So they hated the Gospel, and continued to hold on to OC law with both hands, denying what Christ taught about everything, including his reformed NC Sabbath.
Many today do the same thing. In fact, every time someone thinks it is wrong to work on the Sabbath, either Sunday or Saturday, they are following the OC view of things. Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath has no such OC rules or regulations, much less the guilt.
Furthermore, Jesus was saying much more than many comprehend today. His NC Sabbath represented a dramatic change in the Priesthood, a point that the Jews understood, but would not accept, and a point that many today also do not accept.
Which is why most churches have a separate Priesthood, including the RCC, whose robed and enthroned Pope represents the High Priest. Such a hierarchal, priestly system follows the OC model, not the NC teachings of Christ.
While the SDA’s do not wear robes and such, they are nonetheless based on the OC model, having also rejected the Priesthood of all believers. They have even embraced tithing, as they pretend their pastors are like OC Priests, different from the people they serve. This is all wrong.
The SDA’s have badly misunderstood what the NT teaches about church organization as well as the Sabbath. They are very much like the Jews who sent Christ to the cross. Unless they repent of their OC ways, they are doomed.
The article continued: They should have worshipped him instead of looking to old covenant holy places and instead of using old covenant holy times to judge the Giver of those times.
Tom said: You misunderstand the debate. The Jews refused to admit that Jesus had authority over the law. They refused to believe there was a Gospel or a NC. All they wanted was the OC. They hated Jesus’ NC views, which took away all their power, even removing the Temple Hierarchy and the Levitical Priesthood.
John 11:46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them the things which Jesus had done.
John 11:47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs.
John 11:48 “If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”
The author said: The Sabbath was holy only because God had designated it so, and here was God himself. They should have accepted without question whatever he did, and they should have followed his example!
Tom said: Ha! Very few that claim to follow Christ today would have done so in the 1st century. Most Christians pay little to no attention to what Jesus actually teaches about anything, much less the Sabbath. So even today, few “accept” the teachings of Jesus, much less follow his example.
The SDA’s, for certain, would have rejected him simply on the basis of his Sabbath breaking ways. They have always rejected the Gospel and this is what they are still doing today, even as they cling to the OC Sabbath of Moses, pretending that this is what the Gospels teach. Sad.
The author said: Jesus then summarized his argument about the Sabbath and about his own identity: "If you had known what these words mean, `I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" (verses 7-8).
Tom said: Jesus represents the Gospel. His NC teachings made no sense to those in love with the law.
The author said: Jesus is telling the Pharisees that love for humans is more important than sticking to worship rituals.
Tom said: Jesus is hardly so trite. Rather, he was teaching that the OC system of Law, which was a shadow of the Gospel, is being subordinated to the Gospel, even as there was a major change in the Priesthood.
Jesus is teaching that Gospel is superior to law.
Note that he did not teach the removal of the Sabbath; only a new way to observe it; complete with freedom to work on the 7th day, - and yet, remain free from the guilt of the law.
This is not an abolishment of the Sabbath, but a Gospel reformation of this special doctrine. Thus Christ transforms the OC Sabbath into a NC doctrine for the church.
Too bad the SDA’s fell short of figuring this out. But so too has the church for most of its history. Rev 18 shows a time when the church understands the Gospel correctly, which would include the NC Sabbath.
The article said: Holy bread can be given to ordinary people when they are hungry. Holy time can be used in an ordinary way when people are hungry.
Tom said: Jesus view of Sabbath holiness was very different from what the Jews taught. In fact, he never taught such an OC doctrine, nor does the NT show him resting on the Sabbath when alive.
Jesus is teaching that there were times in OC history where violations of law occurred in the Temple, and yet it was not considered sin. Thus he is using these rare instances to explain how the Gospel works. Which is about sinners being forgiven and considered innocent, even though they are really lawbreakers.
Moreover, he teaches that all that follow him are now considered priests of God, and thus they are EXEMPT from the law that prohibits work on the 7th day. Just like the Levites.
The issue here is about the change in the Priesthood, which becomes the underlying basis for the active and reformed Gospel Sabbath.
This also explains why the Jews would not embrace the NC; it would disenfranchise and un-employ all those who were controlling the religious Jewish Empire. Jesus advocated the abolishment of the entire OC system, including the Temple and all the Levites. How could the leaders support what was so necessary for their survival?
Thus the issues are much deeper and more serious than it’s ok to eat on the Sabbath when people are hungry. No. That is not the meaning of the NC Sabbath.
Those that think it sinful to work on the Sabbath, (either the Sunday Sabbath or the 7th day version), are repudiating their NC Priesthood, which is the basis for the active, reformed, NC Sabbath. They do not understand how the NC functions, even as they are trapped in an OC mindset.
The article goes on: If the Pharisees had understood the intent of the law, they would not have been criticizing the disciples. They would have been merciful, not judgmental.
Tom said: No. No. No. The intent of the law is clear. No one can work on the OC Sabbath, unless they were a Levitical priest. Period. No fires, no cooking, no healing, no moving furniture, no long trips, etc.
One must obey God’s law. Period.
Hunger is no excuse to break the law that was spoken by God and written down on stone.
So forget this idea that the law cares about people needing to eat. There is no mercy in the law. You either obey it or you don’t. If not, you are guilty of sin. Case closed.
Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”
The Jews failed to understand that 1) they were not obeying the law good enough to please God, and 2) there was a new Gospel method to deal with this problem.
Of course the Jews rejected both points. They thought they were obeying the law satisfactorily, and thus they had no need of any NC method to deal with sin. This is the same way the Laodicean Church views things. They think they are also following God when they are not even close.
The article continued: Jesus ends the discussion with his claim to be Lord of the Sabbath — someone who had more authority than the God-given Sabbath did.
Tom said: The fact that Jesus takes authority over the Sabbath law is very telling.
First, it shows that the Sabbath is not “abolished,” as many foolishly claim. Who takes charge of something that no longer exist? Or something that is about to be destroyed? This is why Jesus did not claim to be the Lord of Circumcision or the Lord of the Levites or the Lord of the Temple. These were going to be abolished. But not the Gospel Sabbath.
Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
Second, it reinforces Jesus NC Sabbath doctrine, which is based on him being the high priest of the church, with all that follow him also being priests of God. One must have great authority to change the priesthood, and Jesus claims such authority. Which the Jews would not accept.
The author said: It is not just that Jesus claimed to have a more accurate understanding of how the day should be kept — he claimed to be more important than the day itself.
Tom said: Wrong. Jesus is claiming authority over the law and the Sabbath. Which is to say that all should pay close attention to what he teaches. But they refused and sent him to the cross.
Moreover, Jesus teaches a very different doctrine of the Sabbath for the believing Jews and the Church. Those that follow the Good Shepherd will understand this fact and follow his Gospel Sabbath.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
John 15:10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
The author said: It was a stupendous claim, and it is no surprise that some Pharisees thought he blasphemed and deserved to die (verse 14).
Tom said: The Jews were not expecting the Gospel. It took them by complete surprise. The same can be said today. The church is not expecting the genuine Gospel. Why? Because they think they have theology and doctrine all figured out, including the Sabbath. Just like the Jews.
But on closer examination the opposite is the case. The church today is blind to the Gospel and clueless about the NC Sabbath. Which is why Christ condemns the last chuch, calling it blind, naked, and unsaved.
The author said: Jesus' next activity gives a practical demonstration not only of his authority over the Sabbath, but also the proper use for the Sabbath in the old covenant. "Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, `Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?' " (verses 9-10). The Pharisees seem to be baiting Jesus, confronting him with a situation to test him. Healing was one of the types of work they said was unlawful.
Tom said: Wrong. The object of the NC Sabbath is not for Jesus followers to go around healing people. Jesus was a healer. That was how he fulfilled scripture and proved that he was from God.
Luke 7:20 When the men came to Him, they said, “John the Baptist has sent us to You, to ask, ‘Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?’”
Luke 7:21 At that very time He cured many people of diseases and afflictions and evil spirits; and He gave sight to many who were blind.
Luke 7:22 And He answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM.
Luke 7:23 “Blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.”
The fact that such healing was forbidden by the Jews on the 7th day, was used by Christ to gain attention for his NC Sabbath views. Which allows everyone in the church to have an EXEMPTION from the law of the 4th Commandment.
All that follow Christ are free to work on the 7th day, not just those who work in the health field as the SDA’s teach. There is no distinction between a person that has to repair a car on the 7th day or operate on a person. All are free and guiltless according to the Gospel teachings of Christ.
The author continued: But Jesus again pointed out the hypocrisy in their approach. They would rescue a sheep on the Sabbath (verse 11) — thus even a sheep was more important than resting on the Sabbath — and yet they were so strict that they didn't allow human needs, whether hunger or healing, to be taken care of on the Sabbath.
Tom said: The Jews placed Law before people. As if law was the final and best revelation to mankind. Jesus said no. The Gospel is greater than the law, which is why he teaches such a controversial view of the Sabbath, one where work is now permitted due to the change in the priesthood.
While the OC Sabbath prohibited fire and cooking, and all manner of work, not so with the NC Sabbath. There are no such rules or regulations as many teach today. Which means that the SDA’s are very wrong. They have the same OC Sabbath as the enemies of Christ.
The author said: Their rules were a terrible distortion of what the Sabbath should have been.
Tom said: It was God who gave the law to Moses. It was God who made Sabbath breaking a capitol offense, even for gathering sticks or lighting a fire. So let’s be careful about this idea that the Sabbath law should not have been so strict. Who are we to correct God?
Gal. 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
The OC Sabbath law acted as a tutor or schoolmaster for the Jews. It was meant to be strict in order to keep them in line until the Gospel was revealed. Then a more mature, and much better Sabbath would emerge. Which is the active and reformed 7th day Sabbath of Christ.
The author said: "How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" (verse 12). This is what Jesus taught about the Sabbath.
Tom said: It is only lawful to work on the Sabbath if one is a priest of Christ. This is how one gets an EXEMPTION from the 4th Commandment. If a Jew does not believe in Christ, they must remain under the OC, trying hard not to sin on the Sabbath.
The author said: Don't worry about prohibiting work — be more concerned about doing good.
Tom said: First off, NCT incorrectly teaches that there is no actual Sabbath day for the church. So what is this conclusion that says don’t worry about working on the Sabbath?
Is there a Sabbath day for the church or not? One can’t have it both ways. If there is no such day, then how can anyone even have a doctrine of the Sabbath?
Second, anyone who prohibits any type of work, or play, on the Sabbath, does not understand the Gospel or the NC Sabbath of Christ. There is zero prohibition against work on the 7th day Gospel Sabbath. Period!
Third, the Sabbath is not to become a day of rules and regulations. That was the OC Sabbath. The NC Sabbath features the Gospel teachings of Christ, which also features good works and praising God and his Christ.
Fourth, there is no possibility that Sunday can be the NC Sabbath of Christ. It is the wrong day for starters. Anyone that thinks otherwise has a serious misunderstanding about the Gospel Story. But yet, the NCT crowd meets together every Sunday.
What a great error from those that claim to be so smart about the Sabbath doctrine. And what hypocrisy. If they really followed what they teach, then the weekly day for their church meetings would not be held on a set day every week. It should be on Monday or Wed, and then the next week on Friday or Tuesday. You know, on every day of the week as the year goes on because this is what their Sabbath doctrine teaches, blah, blah, blah…
The author concluded: So Jesus healed the man, and the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus. They thought the holy day was more important than the One who had made it holy.
http://www.gci.org/law/sabbath3
Tom said: The Jews refused to believe that the law could ever be subordinated to anything, much less to the Gospel. Thus they allowed the law to blind them from seeing the Gospel and the NC Sabbath of Christ.
Rom. 11:8 just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
It is time for the Laodicean church to wake up and grow up. They are so wrong about so much, including the Sabbath, which condemns them all.
It is time for the SDA’s, who were hot on the trail of the NC Sabbath, to repent and press forward to complete their much-needed Sabbath Reform. If they can admit their errors and repent, then they will find the Gospel, including the active and reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ. The genuine 7th day Sabbath for the church.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Question for Tom Norris:
Hi Tom, Thanks for making yourself available like this.
My first question is:
What are the true and legitimate issues about Adventist theology?
You used this statement at the end of one of your answers on is E.G.White a prophet.
I'm a pretty new Adventist and have read some of Sister Whites books.
I have so many questions at the moment and don't know who to ask.
These include:
How should we use these books as Adventists?
Are they from God?
Did Sister White copy/plagiarize some/ many of these as suggested?
Is it appropriate to use quotations from them in church services?
Please help Tom, I'm really confused at the moment.
I'm not even sure if I'm asking the right questions –
God bless you Tom thanks for listening.
Andrew
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Answer:
Today, many SDA’s are confused, disoriented, and frustrated, which is why so many keep leaving the church. After all these years, the issues that led to the great 19th century Battle Creek schism, as well as to the 20th century Glacier View schism, have not been understood properly, much less resolved.
Consequently, the Advent Movement is self-destructing for everyone to see. In fact, all one has to do is go online to see legions of former SDA’s who are angry with the church for being so dishonest, wrong, and controlling all these years. It is amazing how many are upset with the SDA’s. It is an amazing and growing phenomenon.
What do we do with this information?
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … tion-1.htm
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … 896#p10896
Today, in America, there are far more former SDA’s than those on the books. And yet, the leaders still pretending that they have done nothing wrong, and that all their doctrines are true. Thus they refuse any discussion about REFORM, claiming there is no need. Such dishonesty, delusion, and incompetence, only makes matters worse.
Leaving the SDA Church
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=233
You ask, what are the true and legitimate issues about Adventist theology?
Answer: The Gospel, the Judgment, and Ellen White. These three points represent some of the key issues that the SDA’s must resolve, along with many other errors like church organization and the Lord’s Supper, which they have also not understood correctly.
The fact of the matter is that the SDA’s do not even teach the doctrine of the Sabbath correctly, much less eschatology. So they face enormous problems, which they refuse to address or resolve.
Here are some links:
The Reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228
SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836
Adventist Reform
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=234
The Fraud of Traditional Adventism
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=235
The Fraud of Church Tithing
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=239
The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227
The SDA Scandal of Abstinence
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=238
As for your questions about Ellen White:
How should we use these books as Adventists? Are they from God?
Did Sister White copy/plagiarize some/ many of these as suggested?
Is it appropriate to use quotations from them in church services?
The modern SDA’s have never been honest about Ellen White. From the moment the General Conference took ownership of the White Estate in the 1930’s, they determined to carefully hide and suppress thousands of Ellen White documents that were meant by her to become public. With much of her writings hidden, they set about to dishonestly revise church history and deceive everyone about Ellen White’s mature views.
Mission accomplished.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Estate.htm
This massive fraud in the White Estate, which is still ongoing in nature, is why things are so confusing within Adventism. The church has published so many false, contradictory, and misleading accounts about Ellen White, that few have any idea what went on in Battle Creek, or what the Pioneers actually believed about the Three Angels Messages.
Did you know that at the end of Ellen White’s life, she refused to embrace the doctrine of tithe as taught by the church? And did you know that when the leaders confronted her, she refused to comply because she said the Spirit had been leading her AWAY from this doctrine. Of course the church hid this information and have ever since claimed that Ellen White fully support the doctrine of tithe when SHE DID NOT.
Now you get an idea of what has been going on. If the leaders did not like what Ellen White did or said, they would just hide it, and use another quote from her, out of context, that fit what they wanted her to say. Thus the White Estate became a propaganda factory, not an honest champion for Ellen White’s real views.
Today, no one should trust anything that has been published by the White Estate or the church. In fact, I could name one official book after another, Like Movement of Destiny, by Dr. Froom, or 13 Crisis Years, by Olsen, that are nothing more than false and dishonest accounts of 1888, but yet, the church leaders continue to promote what they know is not true. This is how low the SDA’s have fallen. They are as fully corrupt, and legalistic, as were the 1st century Jews that killed Christ.
The Adventists today are not honest and no one should pretend otherwise. No one should support them until they confess and embrace Gospel Reform.
Unless one is a historian, and knows the detailed background of Ellen White’s life, no one should read these books. This is especially true of the many compilations that were made by the White Estate. These books were manipulated and written as propaganda, not honest history. In fact, they were written when the White Estate was actively hiding thousands of Ellen White documents that told a different story from what the White Estate was publishing. This is called “publishing fraud.”
So these books are not honest history, nor did they come from God. No. They came from the minds of very cultic and dishonest people, and I have no hesitation to say that Arthur White is one of the most dishonest men in modern SDA history. He has done more damage to Ellen White and the Advent Movement than all the critics combined.
The White Estate is a crime scene, not the source for honest information about Ellen White or church history.
Ellen White
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=225
However, none of this is the fault of Ellen White. She has been the victim, along with the rest of the church and the public. Had the White Estate told the truth, things would have been very different for the modern SDA’s. There would have been no need for Glacier View, or for Walter Rea’s book, nor would the church be self-destructing in well-deserved schism and irrelevance.
Did you know that when Ellen White was alive, the SDA’s were forbidden to read her words from the pulpit, or place them in the SS lessons? In fact, when a pastor asked Ellen White for permission to read one of her doctrinal statements during a sermon, she refused to allow it.
But yet, after she was dead, the church leaders made Ellen White into a scripture writing prophet and used her writings to say what they wanted. Thus, in the 20th century, most every sermon contained more Ellen White than scripture. However, Ellen White would have never allowed this to take place were she alive. She never viewed her writings as scripture.
As for this charge of plagiarism, this is not really true. While the SDA’s freely copied from one another, this idea that Ellen White did this in a knowingly illegal fashion, is just a diversion from the real issues about why Ellen White and Uriah Smith became enemies, which the church was trying so hard to cover up.
Here is some valuable insight from Dr. Ford about Ellen White;
Dr. Ford & Ellen White
AToday: QUESTION #8 to Dr. Ford - It is virtually impossible to discuss Adventist history or theology without dealing with Ellen White, her authority, and her writings. Today, there are numerous web sites that seek to discredit and ridicule her for reasons that range from plagiarism to supposedly fraudulent behavior. Indeed, her popularity and credibility within the Denomination may be at an all time low. I note that your critics have routinely accused you of also being "against Ellen White" and often cite that charge as the fundamental reason for your exile.
Would you please tell us your position regarding Ellen White? Was she a real prophet or a fraud? Are her writings reliable and worth reading today? Can her writings be used to help us understand the Bible and determine doctrine? Also, how do you think Ellen White affected the debate at Glacier View, if at all? And finally, has your perception of Ellen White changed over the years and what do you think she would have said about this unresolved debate if she were still alive today?
Dr. Ford Answered: In the Glacier View manuscript and in "The Adventist Crisis of Spiritual Identity," I have discussed the role of E.G. White at great length. She had the gift of prophecy spoken of in l Corinthians 14 which is not identical with that of the canonical writers of Scripture (see l Cor. 14:29 and l Thess. 5:19-21 for clear statements that the gift in our day—since the completion of the canon—is not infallible). Ellen White never claimed infallibility and her writings should be studied as those of a great church leader and pastor but not as a "Bible."
Yes, it was my supposed threat to Ellen White that contributed to the Glacier View debacle. I have highly valued the writings of Ellen White since my first encounter with them. But for the last fifty years, I have accepted her own warnings that her writings were not to be used as Scripture and that the Bible—and the Bible only—is our source of doctrine. Were she living today, she would say the same thing as she said during the long theological debate over the "daily" (see SM, vol. 1, pp. 164ff). During that debate, she told the brethren not to use her statements but to go to the Bible.
When asked by Southern Publishing Association to write a book as a lesson help for a series on the prophets, I wrote Physicians of the Soul. In that book, I have several chapters on Ellen G. White in which I said essentially what I stated above. However, I also pointed out her use of sources, listing many, including, if I remember correctly, authors not mentioned by Walter Rea when years later he made his revelations. My lesson quarterly on the topic, requested by the Church and endorsed by the scholars who reviewed it, was never published because certain administrators feared that my name being on it would arouse controversy. I was never officially informed of this decision and found out years later after making a series of inquiries to Church administrators.
Having researched the stacks of the Library of Congress, I know that most writers in theology, medicine, history, science, etc. of the Nineteenth Century used other authors freely without giving them credit.
In addition, the expression, "I was shown," was commonplace among religious writers of Ellen White's day. That phrase did not always or necessarily mean revelation by vision. For example, the famous book, Uncle Tom's Cabin, according to its author, came story by story to the writer in a dream. This religious phenomenon was not at all uncommon in the 1800s.
http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … /part2.cfm
In conclusion, the Advent Movement has made a significant contribution to the church. They corrected the error about post millennialism and changed the entire eschatological platform for all denominations, even as they rescued the long forgotten doctrine of the 2nd Coming as the Day of Judgment. Good for them.
Then they moved on to try and correct the error of Sunday worship, as well a further define and articulate modern eschatology. A noble and necessary intent. But they failed to fully understand the Gospel, and this led them into legalism, and into the infamous 1888 Gospel debates, which left the church confused and disoriented, destined for schism.
Consequently, the SDA Empire self-destructed at the end of the 19th century, with the leaders retreating to Takoma Park to start over with their message of Sabbath Reform and eschatology. Once there, they fell into the same trap of legalism, unresolved debate, and schism. So history was repeating itself, but yet the SDA’s failed to grasp the situation and embrace Gospel Reform. Sad.
The present situation is not sustainable. The Advent Movement cannot go forward in the 21st century unless there is meaningful reform and correction. But the leaders refuse to repent, much less tell the truth and embrace Gospel Reform.
So the Advent people must go forward without their corrupt and dishonest leaders. This is exactly what Ellen White threatened during the 1888 debates when Uriah Smith was trying to censor her public talks. She almost rented a hall in downtown Battle Creek so that she could push the Gospel debate forward and save the SDA’s from their leaders. But Smith backed down, and allowed her to speak. But she was exiled to Australia a year later in order to get her away from Battle Creek.
But the White Estate covered all this up and failed to explain this most important phase of Ellen White’s life work. They hid her most theologically advanced writings from the church, because they sided with the legalist Uriah Smith, not with the Gospel Reformer, Ellen White.
So Ellen White is not the problem, but the White Estate is.
Unless the church repents for what they have done, and corrects the record in the White Estate, the SDA’s are doomed. No one that is honest of heart, or that wants to support the genuine Ellen White of history, should allow himself or herself to support what is so false and wrong. Shame on the SDA leaders for what they have done. They have no excuses because we know the facts. The hidden documents have been discovered decades ago and are now online for all to read. So there is no way out for the White Estate but to tell the truth and confess, correcting the record for all to see.
I hope this helps answer your many questions and gives you the necessary sources for further study about Ellen White and the need for honest reform in the church.
Tom Norris, for All Experts.Com and Adventist Reform
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Tom, I hope at some point you remind your questioner that your view, or mine for that sake, are not tSDA positions, and giving that person the traditional position is important, since that seems like that is what he is asking. To get out in the "deep weeds" with your Reformed Sabbath will just confuse this new Adventist. New Covenant Theology on the other hand if a study of the covenants is given and understood, which Adventists don't do well if at all, the questioner can understand better how the Bible is put together. If the disconnect between and Old and New Covenants is not explained they will have trouble with when the Kingdom of God and the New Covenant began. Your Prophet-like trashing of the traditional SDA church is unbecoming to you, and will only confuse the new Adventist.
Last edited by bob_2 (04-16-12 2:31 am)
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Has anyone thought about "Actually, that's not in the Bible "....Seventh Day Adventist, New Covenant Theology, Reform(ed), Trinity. etc,etc.? I don't have a problem discerning " Reformed Sabbath" in all four gospel!
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Miller, the word "new" and "covenant" are in the Bible. The word theology is not. What does that word mean:
Theology - the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world
First Known Use: 14th century
The teaching of Jesus about the Sabbath is not Reformed, but what the intent of what the Lord of the Sabbath wanted when it was given on Sinai. Jesus stripped all the man made regulation about the Sabbath, which was not reforming it but clarifying and stripping it of all corruption which the leaders had put in place. Jesus pointed out the Sabbath issue about David and the shewbread and the Priest working on Sabbath. Show me one reformed idea Jesus made or added to the Ten Commandments while he was on earth????
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Bob said: Tom, I hope at some point you remind your questioner that your view, or mine for that sake, are not tSDA positions, and giving that person the traditional position is important, since that seems like that is what he is asking.
Tom said: Bob, no one should expect me to be promoting OC Traditional Adventism. That is not what was asked for. The questioner wanted to know the issues, and he wanted to know about the problems with Ellen White.
For the record, I am promoting NC Adventism, along with all the original pillars of the Three Angels Messages. Including the REFORMED, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.
Bob said: To get out in the "deep weeds" with your Reformed Sabbath will just confuse this new Adventist.
Tom said: Speak for yourself. Others do not find the Gospel teaching of Christ as difficult as you or the SDA’s.
Besides, all SDA’s are confused right now. How can they not be? The fact that they also have the Sabbath wrong is just one more reason why the issues must be honestly addressed and resolved.
The only way to resolve the SDA error about the Sabbath is for them to repent and embrace the 7th day, reformed Sabbath of Christ. This will forever end the confusion that has surrounded this doctrine, which all have failed to get fully correct.
Bob said: New Covenant Theology on the other hand, if a study of the covenants is given and understood, which Adventists don't do well if at all, the questioner can understand better how the Bible is put together. If the disconnect between and Old and New Covenants is not explained they will have trouble with when the Kingdom of God and the New Covenant began.
Tom said: The SDA’s are very confused and wrong about how they view both Covenants. But so too is NCT. But I agree that the Two Covenants are critical to understand.
Bob said: Your Prophet-like trashing of the traditional SDA church is unbecoming to you, and will only confuse the new Adventist.
Tom said: Those who teach the Gospel, must point out the many false views that compete against it. That comes with the territory. So if condemning those who lie and deceive in the name Christ confuses people, - too bad. All had better pray for wisdom to understand Gospel truth or they are doomed anyway.
I Miller said: Has anyone thought about "Actually, that's not in the Bible "....Seventh- Day Adventist, New Covenant Theology, Reform(ed), Trinity. etc, etc.? I don't have a problem discerning the "Reformed Sabbath" in all four gospels!
Tom said: While the Sunday Sabbath is not in the Bible, legions have embraced this false view anyway. So your point is well taken. People should consider if what they practice is “in the Bible.”
While the OC Sabbath of the SDA’s is “in the Bible,” it was the enemies of Christ that defended this doctrine, having rejected the NC Sabbath of Christ. So even a doctrine being in the Bible is not enough; it has to be in the NT, or it is wrong.
Of course NCT has never been embraced in the long history of the church. Why? Because there is no such Sabbath doctrine in the entire Bible. It makes no sense, nor does it have any Gospel support. It is absurd and impossible, much like the Sunday Sabbath, which NCT actually embraces every week, which makes it double wrong.
There is only one correct version of the 7th day Sabbath that can be true for the church. It is the one that Jesus teaches, promotes, and defends in the Gospels. THIS is the correct Sabbath for the SDA’s and all others as well.
Bob said: The teaching of Jesus about the Sabbath is not Reformed, but what the intent of what the Lord of the Sabbath wanted when it was given on Sinai.
Tom said: Those who refute the Sabbath of Christ, refute his Gospel, and misunderstand the OC.
Ex. 31:12 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Ex. 31:13 “But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.
Ex. 31:14 ‘Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex. 31:15 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.
Ex. 31:16 ‘So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.’
Ex. 31:17 “It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.”
Ex. 31:18 When He had finished speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, He gave Moses the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of God.
The Pharisees were protecting the law of God as it had been written and enforced for generations. Their error was to misunderstand that there was a change taking place in the OC, it was moving forward to the NC.
But they wanted no such change. They liked the way things were set up, - with them in charge.
So they hated the Gospel, and continued to hold on to OC law with both hands, denying what Christ taught about everything, including his reformed NC Sabbath.
Many today do the same thing. In fact, every time someone thinks it is wrong to work on the Sabbath, either Sunday or Saturday, they are following the OC view of things. Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath has no such OC rules or regulations, much less the guilt.
Bob, the NT does not support your position. In fact, it shows that Jesus’ new way to view the 7th day Sabbath was against what Moses had taught. Moses said “no work” on the Sabbath, Jesus came along and said the opposite. There is no use in denying what is so obvious in the record.
Bob said: Jesus stripped all the man made regulation about the Sabbath, which was not reforming it but clarifying and stripping it of all corruption which the leaders had put in place.
Tom said: Wrong. The 4th Commandment said NO WORK. Jesus, the “Lord of even the Sabbath,” said he was going to change this doctrine and allow work on the 7th day.
So your view is absurd, impossible, and very wrong. You need to repent and believe the Gospel Sabbath.
Bob said: Jesus pointed out the Sabbath issue about David and the shewbread and the Priest working on Sabbath.
Tom said: Jesus used an example to show how the priests had an EXEMPTION from the prohibition against work contained in the 4th Commandment. This is the precedent he is using for those who follow him as priests of God, which is everyone in the church.
Bob asked: Show me one reformed idea Jesus made or added to the Ten Commandments while he was on earth????
Tom said: Jesus taught that those who followed him could work on the Sabbath and be guiltless. But the Jews repudiated such lawbreaking, even as they rejected his view of the Gospel and his authority over the law.
Jesus also reformed the Passover into the Eucharist, which became the most sacred of all Christian ritual.
It is futile to wage war against the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. What is the point? Jesus NC view of the Sabbath is amazing and well documented. It represents the theological genius of God, even as Jesus claims God is the author of this doctrine.
No other view of the Sabbath comes close to what Jesus teaches in all four Gospels. Not the long tradition of Sunday, or the legalistic, OC Sabbath of the Jews or SDA’s. And certainly not this fiction from the 1970’s about Jesus fulfilling, and then abolishing the Sabbath, so everyone could meet on Sunday, and pretend that it is the “everyday” Sabbath.
This is such a silly, trite, and absurd view, that I am surprised anyone would embrace such obvious myth and false doctrine. Very strange. But not really.
2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
I say it is time for those who want to follow the Gospel of Christ, to repent and do so. Not to just keep pretending, embracing one false doctrine after another. What is the point of such delusion?
It is time for the Advent Movement to follow Gospel Truth and do their duty. Enough of all this confusion, error, and double-talk.
Tom Norris for genuine Adventist Reform
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SDA Anonymous said: Thanks Tom for your response. We don't necessarily agree with all your polemic in this answer. However we agree that the White Estate has much to answer for.
Tom replied: While I don’t know what specific points you disagree with, I think we both agree that the White Estate “has much to answer for.” They have never been honest about church history or Ellen White and it is time for everyone to stop defending them.
The White Estate does not deserve the benefit of any doubt. They have been involved in a massive and ongoing publishing fraud for generations, and it has to stop. They are the problem and it is time that this FACT becomes understood by the Adventist Community as well as the critics. This is the mother of all SDA scandals, and yet, it still goes on…as if the White Estate has done no wrong.
Wow! The SDA’s are a dull people. No wonder they are self-destructing? Anyone that allows their leaders to so mislead and abuse them, deserves to become a laughing stock…
The White Estate is a CRIMINAL ENTERPRISE
The White Estates behavior is criminal, arrogant, and outrageous. They have been caught red-handed hiding documents and manipulating Ellen White’s writings, and yet, they have no intention of confessing or correcting the record. They just pretend all is well, denying they have done anything wrong.
Rather than some meek protests, or some anonymous people trying to get to the truth, there should be a class action lawsuit to get to the bottom of this scam. Where is the outrage for such a crime? Why are SDA’s so fearful of calling sin for what it is?
SDAA said: Can you document with any letters your assertions regarding motive? Commenting on actions are one thing, but it is always dangerous to speak regarding motive - unless there are clear confessions, only God can know that.
Tom said: I think you are going too soft on the White Estate, and you are not paying attention. They do not deserve to be defended for what they have done. There is no excuse whatsoever for such massive deception and fraud, which continues to this very day.
Ellen White never gave anyone permission to hide her documents and manipulate her life’s story, much less to the White Estate that was supposed to be her guardian and protector. If anyone was supposed to tell the truth about Ellen White and her views, it was the White Estate. But they failed to tell the real story, preferring a version of Ellen White that was manipulated and falsified.
So let’s be clear about the problem with the White Estate, even as we also know why they went wrong.
Motive for Fraud
Today, we don’t need to guess why the church leaders hid Ellen White’s 1888 documents. Dr. Froom went on the record, in Movement of Destiny, and admitted why. So it is a published fact of history. How could you have missed this?
Let’s not pretend we don’t know the details or the motives as to why the leaders decided to suppress Ellen White’s writings. We know the facts, even as the hidden documents have been found in the White Estate 30 + years ago.
So the facts are clear, and so too the motivation for this massive publishing fraud that has destroyed Adventism and brought in MILLIONS of $$ for this corrupt church, which is out of control.
Let’s review the published confession of LeRoy Froom about the fraud in the White Estate. Here he reveals the motivation behind this massive suppression and manipulation of Ellen White, which you have overlooked. Thus there is no need for anyone to assume motives; we have a detailed description about the leaders motives.
LeRoy Froom
By 1970, the history of Minneapolis was still far from being settled and a number of contradictory accounts of the 1888 period circulated within the Adventist community. Moreover, Weiland and Short, still on their quest to arouse the church to repent for the denomination's supposed rejection of the 1888 message, would not be silenced.
Then, in 1971, one of the most comprehensive books ever written on the subject of 1888 appeared on the Adventist bookshelves: Movement of Destiny.
This 700-page tome was by far the most exhaustive on the 1888 issue and the author, LeRoy Edwin Froom, was one of the denomination's most prestigious and well-known scholars.
Froom had been personally commissioned by A. G. Daniells in 1930 to write out the entire story starting from 1844 to the present, "with special emphasis upon the developments of '1888', and its sequel [60]." This book was intended to be the last and final word on the subject of 1888, "complete and forthright." It would tower above all the rest and finally solve the mystery and contradictions of the 1888 period.
After relinquishing his position as General Conference president in 1922, Daniells developed a close, "father-son" relationship with Froom and perceived him as the "connecting link between the past leaders and the present."
He personally passed on to Froom all of his research material from his earlier work, Christ Our Righteousness, as well as his deep conviction that the blessings of 1888 were still in the future [61].
In addition, Daniells warned Froom that this critical work must not be attempted too soon for he feared that the denomination was not yet mature enough to deal with this sensitive subject. There was still the very real possibility that the church could easily be plunged into a repeat of another tragic Minneapolis conflict if the truth about this era surfaced prematurely, - for Daniells "knew that time would be required for certain theological wounds to heal and for attitudes to modify on the part of some [62]."
Although Daniells' caution to Froom was indeed wise, the debate over 1888, which seemed to have a life of its own, had been heating up for years. Could Froom bring the smoldering controversy to a halt and unite the church behind his interpretation of 1888?
The answer was absolutely not. In fact, Froom succeeded in fanning the smoldering debate into a flaming inferno as the conflict moved into a strange and innovative direction that actually complicated the original 1888 problem.
As a mature, seasoned Adventist scholar, Froom's work on 1888 seemed unparalleled. "It was read critically by some sixty of our ablest scholars--specialists in denominational history and Adventist theology. By experts in the Spirit of Prophecy. By key Bible teachers, editors, mass communication men, scientists, physicians," etc. [63]. It was intended to be the best, last and final word on the history of 1888.
Froom's long association with denominational leaders and church historians gave him a unique advantage as he took up the challenge to solve the nagging problem of the 1888 era. Not only did he have a mandate from the legendary A. G. Daniells, but church historian, Arthur Spalding, personally encouraged him to settle the intriguing questions and puzzling complexities of this period as did A. V. Olson who challenged him to "get to the bottom of the facts" and provide a work that would allow the church to complete the "final advances [64]."
The highest officials in the denomination also supported Froom's work. Robert H. Pierson, the General Conference President, wrote the Forward to the book and quoted from an Ellen White letter written in 1903, which stated that the 1888 history was destined to repeat itself. Pierson made it clear that he thought the time was "near, very near." He recommended Movement of Destiny to the entire church without reservation.
Aside from Pierson, the book was also publicly endorsed by Neil Wilson, who was then the Vice President of the North American Division and Chairman of the Guiding Committee for the manuscript. Wilson was also enthusiastic about Froom's work and was confident that the "facts" as well as the "whole story" would now be told. It was his personal hope that this providential work could be used to unify the church and facilitate the loud cry [65].
Surprisingly, Froom's comprehensive work shed little light on the 1888 controversy. In fact, he deviated from all previous positions on the subject and took a novel viewpoint that has never been corroborated by any previous or subsequent research.
He stated that the "inner heart of Waggoner's epochal message" was primarily about the nature of Christ, which caused a debate about the Godhead [66].
Unfortunately, like L. E. Christian, Froom proposed a unique thesis about the 1888 period that was totally without merit or documentation. And in his quest to resolve this embarrassing nineteenth century episode, he incorrectly added yet another theological component--the nature of Christ--into the 1888 debate that was a "non-issue" during the entire Minneapolis era [67].
Although we know today that the nature of Christ had nothing to do with the 1888 conflict, Froom's incorrect thesis, along with other historical inaccuracies, became absorbed into the contemporary debate [68]. Once again, the church would have to wait for a solution to what could well be referred to as the unsolvable mystery of Minneapolis [69].
Although Froom was confused about the 1888 conflict, he lost no time in condemning Weiland and Short for their views on Minneapolis. He seemed to be convinced that the church leaders did not reject the 1888 message as Weiland and Short had claimed, and proceeded to turn the tables on them by demanding that they--not the church--repent and confess. "It is my considered view," he wrote, "that such a charge of 'leadership rejection' stands as invalid and unproved, and is deeply regrettable [70]."
As if personally defending his denominational colleagues, Froom lashed out at Weiland and Short and demanded an "explicit confession" from them for their supposedly unfounded charges. He boldly and ironically accused them of impeaching the dead and relying upon their own "personal opinion or impression or conjecture," rather than the historical record [71].
Weiland and Short were not impressed. The next year they met Froom's demand with a 64-page document sarcastically entitled, "An Explicit Confession...Due the Church." Not surprisingly, this document strongly disagreed with Froom's position and this matter has remained at an impasse to this day [72].
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … m-1888.htm
More Fraud:
Here is another fact to consider: The White Estate had always claimed that there was no information about what Waggoner actually preached during the 1888 debate. Froom backed up this claim in MOD, which allowed him to put forth the myth that Waggoner’s wife took notes that were later incorporated into his books.
Froom claimed that Waggoner's 1888 presentations were taken down in shorthand by his wife, Jessie F. Moser-Waggoner, and then edited by Waggoner to appear later in book form as Christ and His Righteousness (1890); The Gospel in Creation (1894) and The Glad Tidings (1900)."(See Froom, Movement of Destiny, p.189).
While it could well be that the first book of 1890 reflected some of Waggoner's presentations at the 1888 session, one questions to what extent this is true of the latter two books, except that his 1888 presentation of Galatians coincided with the subject matter of the book, The Glad Tidings (1900).
Robert J. Weiland embraces Froom's myth when he wrote in the foreword to his edited version of The Glad Tidings which appeared in 1972: "I discovered that the message of this book was in reality a transcript of studies that Dr. Waggoner gave personally to a gathering of ministers in Minneapolis, Minnesota, in the fall of 1888 (p.6)."
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ggoner.htm
However, not only was this myth not true, neither was this outrageous claim that there was no surviving evidence to prove what Waggoner preached on that fateful Minneapolis day, - which has proven to be the downfall of the SDA’s.
Here is the truth: The White Estate had the details about this 1888 sermon all along; They were hiding the handwritten notes of W. C White, the son of Ellen White, who was an eyewitness to the debate. The very document that the White Estate, and Froom, claimed did not exist, - was in the White Estate all the time. And Arthur White knew it. So don’t think it was somehow lost. No. It was being HIDDEN.
Why was this historical evidence hidden? Because it did not support what the leaders believed, it did not support Traditional Adventism or the many myths that had been growing in Takoma Park over the years. Which means that Froom failed to tell the truth about 1888 as President Daniels tasked him.
The Facts Prove Froom, and the TSDA’s, -WRONG.
In contrast to the myths from the White Estate, Froom and even Weiland, the nature of Christ played no role in the 1888 debates. This point was so often repeated in the 1970’s, that most assumed it was true. But it was not.
Dr. Donald Yost, Archivist of the General Conference in Washington, stated in October 1980, in private conversation, that there was no evidence that the nature of Christ was the content of the 1888 presentations. And so too Burt Haloviack.
In addition to Yost and Haloviak, David P. McMahon was also convinced that the human nature of Christ was not the content of Waggoner's message. Tom Norris agrees. This was one of the surprising facts that emerged from the study of the original, and hidden, sources in the White Estate and Archives.
McMahon writes: "There is no evidence that Waggoner's teaching on the humanity of Christ was part of his message in 1888. This is one of the Waggoner myths demolished by an investigation of the original sources" (Elliot Joseph Waggoner, p.104).
"Ellen G. White makes many allusions to the message of 1888. In Testimonies to Ministers, pp. 91,92 she indicates that God sent a precious message through Jones and Waggoner.
The message was to bring before the world the uplifted Savior. It presented justification through faith in the Surety and invited people to accept the righteousness of Christ made manifest in obedience to God's commandments. They needed to see Christ's divine person, His merits and His love. Christ had all power to impart the gift of His righteousness to the human agent.
This was the third angel's message to be given in a loud voice. Furthermore, Ellen White also says that it was an unwillingness to accept Waggoner's exposition of the moral law in Galatians, which caused the opposition to his messages."
(See Letter 96, 1896 and Manuscript 15, 1888, in A. V. Olson, Through Crisis to Victory, pp.52-55).
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Note that "recent discoveries" mentioned below is a reference to what Tom Norris found in the White Estate.
Documents were found about 1888 that the White Estate DENIED they had. But that was a lie. Arthur White was hiding these documents all along, even as he was deceiving the church about 1888. And the White Estate has never confessed to this great fraud, even though they know that it has been discovered and documented. And neither has the GC, the owner of the White Estate.
"Among the significant items that have been discovered recently are the W. C. White handwritten notes from the Minneapolis meetings. These were uncovered at the White Estate in Washington, D.C. "
"In the light of these notes and other discoveries, Bert Haloviak, assistant director of the Archives (General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists), wrote as follows:
"You can see from the handwritten W. C. White notes and also know from thousands of documents recently studied pertaining to the 1888 period that Christology was not the point of friction in 1888. "
"The theology of the law in Galatians and of the covenants and the question of the role of the Spirit of Prophecy were the basic points of contention."
(Letter from Bert Haloviak to E. C. Webster, August 3, 1982)
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/web … 03-IIb.htm
See also:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ggoner.htm
SDA’s should Protest the White Estate, not excuse it.
My name is Tom Norris, I am not anonymous, nor do I wish to hide the facts about what the White Estate has done. I have been in the White Estate and the Archives, 5 days a week, for more than a year, where I discovered thousands of hidden documents, including the hand written notes by WC White of Waggoner’s key 1888 presentation.
I also met with Arthur White, Ron Graybill, Dr. Yost and Bert Haloviak and a number of others about the hidden 1888 documents, so I know what I am talking about. Thus my “polemic” was not based on my opinion or hearsay, but on the facts. You need to understand this point.
The Advent Movement cannot hope to go forward if they can’t tell the difference between truth and fiction. It’s should not be so hard to figure this out. But the SDA’s are loath to stand up and confront their evil leaders. So they excuse great sin and continue to support myths and double-talk.
Moreover, I don’t think this problem can be corrected by anyone who wants to remain anonymous and in the dark. The NT does not support such a tactic. The church must be honest and transparent, not playing the games of politics and big business. It is more light that is needed, not more darkness.
John 3:19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
John 3:21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
I also note that there are no anonymous names in the Book of Life. Nor does the Gospel call anyone to hide his or her identity for the sake of truth. Those who did such things were not the good guys in the Gospel Story.
John 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;
John 3:2 this man came to Jesus by night
In addition, this is not the kind of issue that can be corrected by sneaking around or complaining. People need to stand up and demand that the leaders tell the truth about Ellen White and 1888. Period.
No Christian should ever support such a criminal enterprise as the White Estate, which is owned and managed by a very dishonest organization that is full of false doctrine. Christ calls no one to submit to false doctrine or dishonest behavior. In fact, he calls all to refute such errors and condemn their religious leaders who have betrayed them.
John 4:23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
John 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Today there can be no doubt that the White Estate has been very dishonest and deceptive about Ellen White and church history. They have been caught hiding thousands of documents that tell a very different story about Ellen White, from what the church has promoted all these years.
More than that, they were caught hiding specific documents that they had long denied existed; the WC White Notes of Waggoner’s 1888 sermon, and a letter written by Ellen White that shows what the Spirit told her about Waggoner’s position.
For the leaders to go forward with Glacier View, when they were hiding all these documents and promoting a fraudulent version of church history is mind boggling. It is so evil, unfair, and dishonest, no wonder the church has been self-destructing ever since?
Let me speak plainly; Traditional Adventism is based on the massive fraud in the White Estate. This legalistic paradigm, that was supposedly supported by Ellen White, and made official at Glacier View, was not endorsed by her. She does not support the IJ as a pillar, or the perfectionist view of the Human Nature of Christ. While she was a legalist before 1888, she changed and supported the Gospel, refuting character perfection and becoming the lifelong enemy of Uriah Smith. She didn’t even support tithe as the leaders claimed.
It’s time for everyone to understand that the White Estate is the greatest of all SDA scandals. Traditional Adventism is not only wrong, it is based on the suppression of Ellen White and the dishonest manipulation of her writings in the White Estate, - with the full support and blessing from the General Conference.
It is time for Adventists to stop playing games, and so too the critics who have missed the real scandal. It is time for all to honestly face the issues and fix the problems. This is what the real Ellen White would want to happen. This is how the church moves forward, - with Gospel Reform leading the way.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris, who knows what the White Estate had done…
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bob shields, I had that same attitude about Ellen white she is no good. But thank God for Adventist of Tomorrow. I have a question. When will the The White Estate come online and clear things up concering Ellen White documents that were meant by her to become public. Your answer for the SDA White Estate is not helping.
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bob shields, I had that same attitude about Ellen white she is no good. But thank God for Adventist of Tomorrow. I have a question. When will the The White Estate come online and clear things up concering Ellen White documents that were meant by her to become public. Your answer for the SDA White Estate is not helping.
What has AT done to change your mind about the false prophet? Has AT shown you any of her prophecies that have come to pass? What about her belief of the time setting that Wm Miller set. What about her belief in the shut door and that all other Christians are Babylon. What about her belief in the false Investigative Judgment? Can we excuse these things and make her a worthy true prophet?
I have no idea what the White Estate has in mind to do. As of now they are trying to protect her from all the negativism formers have put forth over the past few years. When they will finally decide to become honest with the flock is beyond my scope.
What are you referring to as "your answer"..........?
Why won't you answer the questions I pose?
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Or mine???
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When you ask your question, display the fact that you have done these things first; this will help establish that you're not being a lazy sponge and wasting people's time. Better yet, display what you have learned from doing these things. We like answering questions for people who have demonstrated they can learn from the answers. http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#before
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I am amazed that the corporate church didn't yet have the guts to correct this situation, and keeps insisting in teaching those absurdities worldwide. They are afraid of switching to a more pure Christian doctrinal foundation. They would rather keep the "door shut"... to the truth. Unbelievable! Saving the Soul of Ellen White. 4 January 2011
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Miller, show where I have not supplied answers as to what I believe. You have done it, and I have quoted them to you without response. Show me, Miller, otherwise you are bearing false witness.
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Relax bob relax. What do you hope to accomplish and what is your mission? Remember, you are a moderator in the NCT thread.
Last edited by l_miller (05-17-12 4:57 pm)
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