The Reformed Sabbath

bob_2 · 07-12-12 7:06 pm

Tom said:
The SDA’s have also been following a false, tithe paying, Pharisaical Christ. One that demands Sanctification as payment for salvation, as well as a special judgment to see who is safe to save. Such a legalistic Christ is worthless to those foolish enough to follow such an obvious fraud.

1. Christ Reformed Sabbath but not Tithing - Tom you claim the Sabbath is reformed when Christ is just showing how far the Pharisees had corrupted the original law. Then you inconsistently say that Jesus did not want the tithe to continue when this verse you ignore:

Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Using your same reasoning on the Sabbath, tithing should still be an obligation. In fact Christ comes close to a command to keep the tithing system.

Last edited by bob_2 (07-12-12 7:07 pm)

tom_norris · 07-13-12 1:20 pm

Bob, a NCT supporter said: Tom, you need to be careful calling what is the truth, garbage.

Tom said: Ha! Those who understand the Gospel know the difference between truth and fiction. They can carefully separate the two as they condemn false doctrine for all to see.

Sorry, but NCT is fiction and utter nonsense. It is so bad that no denomination has ever embraced such error, much less the apostolic church. Such error must be rebuked and reproved, revealed as myth and false doctrine for all to see. And so it has!

2Tim. 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

NCT is myth. It is false and worthless doctrine, like garbage, it should be thrown out. Those who embrace it are following a false, worthless, Christ.

Bob said; You have not answered where the command of Jesus to keep the Sabbath is in the New Covenant.

Tom said: The teachings of Jesus are contained in all four Gospels. They include instruction about many things, including the NC Sabbath, which Christ claims was made for all mankind. (But you refuse to believe him).

Those who do not believe what Christ teaches about the NC Sabbath, or any other point, need to be very careful, as belief in the genuine Christ is how we are saved. Embrace a false Christ, and there is no salvation, only delusion and the loss of Eternal Life.

All that follow NCT, are following the teachings of wolves and imposters. They are not following what Jesus, the Good Shepherd teaches.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Bob said: The O/C law was given until the Seed (Jesus) shall come. That says to me that the O/C Law has an ending when Jesus came to live on earth.

Tom said: Jesus teaches a NC doctrine of the Sabbath where the OC Sabbath has been ABOLISHED. Those who believe in Christ are free to work on the NC Sabbath without being guilty of sin. So the change in the Sabbath underscores the change from the OC to the NC.

Bob asked: Galatians 3:19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

Tom said: The Law of Christ is duty that all Christians must follow. This includes what he teaches about the NC Sabbath, aka the Lord’s Day. Don’t misunderstand; we are not talking about the OC Sabbath Law of Moses, but the NC version of Christ, which is very different.

Bob said: To lightly call that fact garbage, you are being sacrilegious.

Tom said: Ha! I am not calling the NT garbage, only what NCT teaches about it. NCT is garbage. It is false doctrine on many levels. Those who embrace it do not understand the Two Covenants correctly, much less the Gospel.

Bob said: If what you say, with your reasoning is true that Jesus mentioned the Sabbath, he mentioned the tithe also and that the Pharisees and Jews at that time, should do it also, but include fairness, justice and mercy. You cling to your believe of a Reformed Sabbath, and do away with tithing, and inconsistently.

Tom said: Ha! Jesus did more then just “mention” the Sabbath. He defended, promoted, and repeatedly taught a reformed, 7th day, NC Sabbath. It was a major point of his Gospel ministry, and was the primary reason why the Jews sent him to the cross.

In fact, the 7th day Gospel Sabbath is so obvious and prominent in all four Gospels, that one would have to be blind to think Christ casually mentioned the Sabbath. No. The Holy Spirit made certain that his controversial Sabbath teachings could not be missed by anyone honestly looking for truth.

How could you, or the entire NCT crowd, miss the Gospel Sabbath of Christ, aka the Lord’s Day? Spiritual blindness is the answer.

Bob quoted Jesus about tithe in Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Tom said: This thread is not about tithe, nor is this passage in any way refuting the NC Sabbath that Christ teaches.

Bob said: A change happened at Christ's death and resurrection. When the priesthood changes there is need for a change in the law, from O/C Law to Christ's Law. Heb 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

Tom said: Prior to the cross, Jesus teaches the NC Sabbath. THIS is the correct Sabbath doctrine for the church. The NC Sabbath is very different from the OC doctrine, thus properly underscoring the change in the Covenants.

Bob said: Tom, you have read these passages, and at the risk of losing your soul, you call it garbage, these quotes right from the sacred Word of God.

Tom said: Ha! Since when do people lose their souls for condemning false doctrine? NCT is garbage. It will save no one. It makes no sense, nor is there any support for this view from Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath.

So you need to understand the difference between truth and fiction before it is too late.

Tom said: "Your Jesus is a fraud."

Bsheilds replied: That is the last straw my friend.

Tom said: Ha! If I were you, I would stay away from a metaphor about something so combustible as straw. Those who follow a false Christ will burn like straw in day the Judgment. Sorry.

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

2Pet. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and 1its works will be 2burned up.

2Pet. 3:11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

2Pet. 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

Bsheilds said: I will no longer be reading your blasphemy.

Tom said: Jesus was accused of blasphemy at the start of his Gospel ministry and all the way along. Those who think the Gospel is blasphemy are lost. They have things confused, not being able to tell truth from error.

Luke 11:33 “No one, after lighting a lamp, puts it away in a cellar nor under a basket, but on the lampstand, so that those who enter may see the light.

Luke 11:34 “The eye is the lamp of your body; when your eye is clear, your whole body also is full of light; but when it is bad, your body also is full of darkness.

Luke 11:35 “Then watch out that the light in you is not darkness.

Luke 11:36 “If therefore your whole body is full of light, with no dark part in it, it will be wholly illumined, as when the lamp illumines you with its rays.”

Mark 2:5 And Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

Mark 2:6 But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,

Mark 2:7 “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”

Mark 14:63 Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, “What further need do we have of witnesses?

Mark 14:64 “You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?” And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.

Mark 14:65 Some began to spit at Him, and to blindfold Him, and to beat Him with their fists, and to say to Him, “Prophesy!” And the officers received Him with slaps in the face.

Bsheilds said: Your mind is deluded, so until such a time you are willing to allow the Holy Spirit to guide your thoughts I am signing off to your posts.

Tom said: The HS reminds us what Christ teaches in the Word. Which of course includes his 7th day reformed, Gospel Sabbath, which you repudiate.

So look in the mirror and understand that you are guilty of fighting the Word, which was written under the influence of the Holy Spirit. To reject the Gospel Word is to reject the HS and Christ.

Luke 12:10 “And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.

John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Why not accept the fact that you have lost the debate and repent? It is OK to be wrong, everyone is most of the time. Which is why no one in Laodicea will be saved without zealous repentance.

Luke 13:3 “I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Rev. 3:3 ‘So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.

Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

The IJ crowd also accused Tom Norris of being a great blasphemer. They too ran away from this discussion about Gospel Reform in a huff. And for the same reason. They had lost the debate. Traditional Adventism is full of false doctrine, myth, and error. But they refused to admit the obvious, just as you are doing.

NCT is false doctrine; it cannot be defended. You are leaving because you don’t want to repent for your false views. So be it. Many will be lost because they refused to repent and embrace the genuine Gospel. Sad.

Bob said: 1. Christ Reformed Sabbath but not Tithing.

- Tom you claim the Sabbath is reformed when Christ is just showing how far the Pharisees had corrupted the original law. Then you inconsistently say that Jesus did not want the tithe to continue when this verse you ignore:

Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Using your same reasoning on the Sabbath, tithing should still be an obligation. In fact Christ comes close to a command to keep the tithing system.

Tom replied: Christ Reformed the Priesthood, which in turn caused reforms and revisions to the Sabbath, even as it also caused the abolition of the Levites and the removal of the tithing system that supported them. The Passover also became the Eucharist, the most sacred of all Christian ceremonial laws.

Look at the big picture; stop getting lost in the details.

While there is still an obligation for the children of God to give to those in need, they share with each other, but they do not tithe. Because they are all are priests of God, there can be no tithe system in the church. And there was none in the apostolic church.

In the OC, tithe is paid by a non-priest, - to a priest. In the NC all are priests. Thus there can be no tithe. Tithe cannot function when all are equal. In the NC, all are equal. No tithe and no OC Sabbath, which was only for the non-priests.

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 10-06-12 7:17 pm

Dear bro. Tom,
I had asked this same question many days back, but still didn't get the answer from you. So, im re-posting it again here. Please answer me as soon as possible.

Question for Tom Norris:

I'm not SDA but studying their doctrinesince two years.

May you explaine withscriptural support-

1. "the SDA's are correct to condemn Sunday worship by the Protestant church, and are correct that the Seventh-day is the Sabbath, they are wrong about what this means and how that day is to be observed."

2. How seventh day sabbath to be observed?

Thanks a lot in advance. Your answer in detail would be appreciated.

Ryan

------------------------------------------------------------

Answer:

Jesus and the Sabbath

The New Covenant teachings of Christ were very controversial and divisive. His proposed changes to Old Covenant Judaism were both surprising and shocking to the Jews. They never saw Gospel Reform coming, nor did the leaders approve what they considered unauthorized and destructive changes to their religion.

The Sabbath played a central role in Judaism, and so too Jesus’ New Covenant message. Not only was it the backdrop for his public promotion of the Gospel each week, Christ actually changed this doctrine in a dramatic, public, manner for all to see. Thus the Sabbath became a flash point for Gospel Reform, generating great controversy and debate, even as it became a testing doctrine for all that followed Christ.

The NT is clear that Jesus taught, promoted, and defended, an active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath for the NC Church. This is a self-evident fact of all four Gospels. To understand his radical, divisive, doctrine -- is to understand the Gospel. Those who misunderstand the New Covenant doctrine of the Sabbath have also misunderstood the Gospel.

While the OC Sabbath featured REST from work, under the pain of death, not so with the NC Sabbath which featured activity and good works, as well as communal fellowship and worship. This dramatic change about the 7th day is based on a transition of the Priesthood, which most have overlooked and misunderstood.

Those who accepted Jesus’ New Covenant changes, must also embraced his reformed, NC Sabbath.

The majority of the Jews held firm to the OC traditions of Judaism. The leaders especially, were horrified with Jesus’ new teachings. They rejected not only his view of the Gospel, but also his view of the Gospel Sabbath. Thus Jesus Reformed Sabbath became a litmus test to see who would embrace his controversial teachings and who would not. It was a doctrine of great division and debate.

Two Sabbath Doctrines

In order to understand the NC Sabbath, it is important to understand that Judaism had two very different doctrines of the 7th day Sabbath. The main version, which was for the vast majority, prohibited any work under pain of death.

Ex. 31:12 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying,

Ex. 31:13 “But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.

Ex. 31:14 ‘Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex. 31:15 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

Ex. 31:16 ‘So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.’

Ex. 31:17 “It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.”

Ex. 31:18 When He had finished speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, He gave Moses the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of God.

But there is more to understand. Such a strict view of the Sabbath is not to be confused with another very different doctrine about the 7th day that was also part of Judaism. Who knew there were two different views of the Sabbath in the Old Testament?

The Priestly Sabbath

The Levites had a very different view of the 7th day Sabbath.
They were required to work every Sabbath, while the majority of the Israel could not work. Thus the Priests had an exemption to work on the 7th day, -- in clear violation of the 4th commandment, without being guilty of sin. Listen to Jesus make this very point:

Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

Jesus, who is “the apostle” and “high priest” of God, uses the priestly doctrine of the “working Sabbath” as the basis for his Reformed Gospel Sabbath. To misunderstand this point, is to misunderstand Jesus’ Sabbath teaching and reach a wrong conclusion about the doctrine of the Sabbath.

Because the NC eliminates the Levites and requires all that follow Christ and become Priests of God, ALL Christians now fall under the priestly doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, where work is not prohibited and activity is promoted, --in addition to communal worship and fellowship.

Heb. 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;

Heb. 7:26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;

Heb. 8:1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

While the OC featured the strict Sabbath of Moses for everyone but the priests, the NC features the reformed Sabbath of Christ, the high priest of the church. The latter is much greater than the former, even as the Gospel Sabbath applies to all in the church, --the NC priests of God.

Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

Matt. 12:7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Anyone today that thinks is wrong or sinful to work or play on the Sabbath, is embracing an OC, non-priestly view, --one that is repudiated by Christ’s reformed, Gospel Sabbath. They are Judaizers and legalists. Those who are the most wrong, like the SDA’s, are OC minded, unable to comprehend the NC.

Jews Embrace OC Sabbath

It was the Pharisees who were protecting the law of God by making it sinful to work on the Sabbath. Not Jesus. They never wanted any change from the OC to the NC. Moreover, they had no intention of letting everyone, (non-Levites) become priests, much less embrace Christ as the new high priest.

The Pharisees misunderstood that there was a change taking place in the law from the OC to the NC. Jesus was making a paradigm shift, and the doctrine of the Sabbath was the most visible and public marker for this dramatic and controversial change.

Mark 6:2 When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?

But the Jews wanted no such change. They liked the way things were set up, - with them in charge. So they hated the Gospel, and continued to hold on to OC law with both hands, denying what Christ taught about everything, including his reformed NC Sabbath, where all were free to break the Sabbath and not be guilty of sin.

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Many today think it wrong to work on the Sabbath (or Sunday). But they are following the OC view of things. Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath has no such OC rules or regulations, much less the guilt.

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Jesus NC Sabbath represented a dramatic change in the Priesthood, a point that the Jews understood, but would not accept, and a point that many today also do not understand. (Which is why the SDA’s refuse to ordain women, and why they practice tithe to support a separate group of pastors who are pretending to be like priests).

Today the Gospel is so badly misunderstood, that most churches, including the SDA’s and the RCC, have a separate Priesthood, a separate class of men, who pretend to be priests of God. Here is great error, which will prevent the comprehension of the true Gospel Sabbath.

Such a hierarchal, priestly system follows the OC Levitical model of a separate priesthood, it does not follow NC teachings of Christ, where all are priests and all are equal.

There can be no divisions in the church, much less a separate priesthood. Such a division is sinful and wrong. All are priests. Both men and women.

Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

1Cor. 12:24, 25 But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, so that there may be no division in the body.

Rev. 1:6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father — to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Rev. 5:10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Jesus Our High Priest

Heb. 8:1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

There can be no separate priesthood in the church. All are priests, both male and female. And all get an exemption to work on the Sabbath without guilt, even though they are violating the 4th commandment. But so too did the Levites. They really were breaking the Sabbath law every 7th day. Jesus never denied this fact.

While the SDA’s do not wear robes and such, they are nonetheless based on the OC Levitical model, having rejected the Priesthood of all believers, a fundamental point of the Reformation. Thus they embrace OC tithing, as they pretend their pastors are like the OC Levitical Priests, different and above from the people they serve. This is all wrong.

Heb. 7:5 And those indeed of the sons of Levi who receive the priest’s office have commandment in the Law to collect a tenth from the people, that is, from their brethren,

The SDA’s have badly misunderstood what the NT teaches about church organization, tithe, and the Sabbath. They are very much like the Jews who sent Christ to the cross. Unless they repent of their OC ways, they are doomed.

The Jews refused to admit that Jesus had authority over the law. They refused to believe there was a Gospel or a NC. All they wanted was the OC. They hated Jesus’ NC views, which took away their power, even removing the Temple Hierarchy and the entire Levitical Priesthood. This is why they rejected his NC view of the Sabbath and killed him. It would cost them their power, authority, and income.

John 11:46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them the things which Jesus had done.

John 11:47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs.

John 11:48 “If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

Very few today that claim to follow Christ, would have done so in the 1st century. The SDA’s especially would have loudly rejected him for his Sabbath breaking views. They would have supported the Pharisees, and their OC, Sabbath keeping, tithe paying ways.

Most Christians today pay very little attention to what Jesus actually teaches about anything, much less the Sabbath. So even today, few “accept” the teachings of Jesus, much less follow his example. Most have no idea what he really teaches, nor do they care. They are content with many myths.

A New Sabbath for a New Covenant

Jesus did not teach the removal of the Sabbath, which is forever anchored to the creation story; only a new way to observe it; complete with freedom to work on the 7th day, - and yet, remain innocent from the guilt of the law.

This is not an abolishment of the 7th day Sabbath, (much less the creation of a Sunday Lord’s day), but a Gospel reformation of this special Jewish doctrine. Thus Christ transforms the OC Sabbath into a NC doctrine for the church, making it a public symbol of the Gospel.

Too bad the SDA’s fell short of figuring this out. But so too has the entire church for most all of its history. Rev 18 shows a time when the church understands the Gospel correctly, which would include the NC Sabbath.

Jesus view of Sabbath holiness was very different from what the Jews taught. In fact, he never taught such an OC doctrine, nor does the NT show him resting on the Sabbath when alive.

Jesus is teaching that there were times in OC history where violations of law occurred in the Temple, and yet it was not considered sin. Thus he is using these rare instances to explain how the Gospel works. Which is about sinners being forgiven and considered innocent, even though they are really lawbreakers.

New Priesthood = New Sabbath Doctrine

Jesus teaches that all that follow him are now considered priests of God, and thus they are EXEMPT from the law that prohibits work on the 7th day. Just like the Levites.

The issue here is about the change in the Priesthood, which becomes the underlying basis for the active and reformed Gospel Sabbath.

This also explains why the Jews would not embrace the NC; it would disenfranchise and un-employ all those who were controlling the Jewish religion.

Jesus advocated the abolishment of the entire OC system, including the Temple and all the Levites. How could the leaders support what was so necessary for their survival? How could they marginalize the law?

Those that think it sinful to work on the Sabbath, (either the Sunday Sabbath or the 7th day version), are repudiating their high priest and their own NC Priesthood, which is the basis for the active, reformed, NC Sabbath. They do not understand how the NC functions, even as they are trapped in an OC mindset.

Jesus Authority to Change and Reform the Sabbath

Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Jesus, who was present at creation and made the first Sabbath, takes authority over the Sabbath law.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Jesus never teaches an “abolished” Sabbath, as some foolishly claim. Who takes charge of something that no longer exists? Or something that is about to be destroyed? This is why Jesus did not claim to be the Lord of Circumcision or tithing, or the Lord of the Levites or the Temple. These were all going to be abolished. But not the Sabbath. It was going to be reformed for the church.

Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

Heb. 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

Today, Jesus, our high priest, is still claiming authority over the priesthood and the law, including the Sabbath. Which is to say, that all should pay close attention to what he teaches about both.

Moreover, Jesus teaches a very different Sabbath doctrine from what the religious authorities teach. This was true in the 1st century and it is still true today. Those that follow the Good Shepherd will understand this fact and only follow his Gospel Sabbath. They will turn their backs on their own religious leaders, who are full of false doctrine and worthless doctrines, very confused and wrong about the Sabbath.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

John 15:10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Those who follow the genuine Christ, will also embrace his Gospel view of the 7th day Sabbath.

The Jews were not expecting the Gospel. It took them by complete surprise. The same can be said today. The church is not expecting the genuine Gospel, much less the truth about Sabbath Reform. Why? Because they think they have theology all figured out, including the Sabbath and the 1st day Lord’s Day.

But on closer examination the opposite is the case. The church today, meaning all denominations, is blind to the Gospel and clueless about the NC Sabbath. Which is why Christ condemns the last church, calling it blind, naked, and unsaved. And so it is. Today, no church, either the Sunday keepers or the SDA’s, have the correct Sabbath doctrine.

Work vs. No Work

All that follow Christ are free to work on the 7th day, not just those who work in the health field as the SDA’s teach. There is no distinction between a person that has to repair a car on the 7th day or operate on a person, or paint the house. All are free and guiltless according to the Gospel teachings of Christ.

Jesus teaches an active, working Sabbath not a resting, passive one.

The Jews placed Law before people. As if law was the final and best revelation to mankind. Jesus said no. He has the final word on all doctrine. The Gospel is greater than law, which is why he teaches such a controversial view of the Sabbath, one that makes the Sabbath a joyful day, where Sabbath breaking and guilt for such, is impossible. Work is now permitted due to the change in the priesthood.

While the OC Sabbath prohibited fire and cooking, and all manner of work and travel, not so with the NC Sabbath. There are no such rules or regulations as many teach today. Which means that the SDA’s are very wrong. They have the same OC Sabbath as the enemies of Christ. They don’t understand the Gospel.

It was God who gave the law to Moses. It was God who made Sabbath breaking a capitol offense, even for gathering sticks or lighting a fire. And it was God, through Christ that reformed the Sabbath at the start of the Gospel era.

Gal. 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

The strict OC Sabbath law acted as a tutor or schoolmaster for the Jews. It was meant to be strict in order to keep them in line until the Gospel was revealed. Then a more mature, and much better Sabbath doctrine would emerge. Which is the active and reformed 7th day Sabbath of Christ.

If anyone does not correctly believe in Christ, they will remain trapped in an OC mindset, trying hard not to sin on the Sabbath.

Anyone today, who prohibits work on the Sabbath, does not understand the Gospel or the NC Sabbath of Christ. There is zero prohibition against work (or play) on the 7th day Gospel Sabbath. Period!

The Gospel Sabbath, while it still contains communal fellowship and worship, is not to become a day of rules and regulations. That was the OC Sabbath. The NC Sabbath features the Gospel teachings of Christ, which features good works, innocence, and forgiveness is not to be confused with the OC Sabbath of the 4th Commandment.

Moreover, there is no possibility that Sunday can be the NC Sabbath of Christ. It is the wrong day for starters. Anyone that thinks otherwise has a serious misunderstanding about the Gospel Story. But yet, most meet together every Sunday, proving their lack of Gospel understanding.

Blinded By Law

The Jews refused to believe that the law could ever be subordinated to anything, much less to the Gospel. Thus they allowed the law to blind them from seeing the Gospel and the NC Sabbath of Christ.

Rom. 11:8 just as it is written, “GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,   DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”

It is time for the Laodicean church to wake up and grow up. They are so wrong about so much, including the Sabbath, which condemns them all.

It is time for the SDA’s, who were hot on the trail of the NC Sabbath, to repent and press forward to complete much needed Sabbath Reform.

If they can admit their errors and repent, then they will go forward and find the Gospel, including the active and reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ. The genuine 7th day Sabbath for the church.

Here are some links about the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ;

The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

NC Sabbath
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm

Reformed Sabbath
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -Sabbath-4

I hope this information will help you better understand the Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com and Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 01-08-13 2:20 pm

Question for Tom Norris:

Subject: Sabbath Questions (follow-up)

Question:

Actually I have done an extensive study, and there is no requirement to worship on a specific day Romans 14:5 states it is a personal decision.

SDA’s base their salvation on Saturday worship rather than realizing that Jesus died for our sins and he wants to have relationship with us his creation.

Romans 6 clearly states we are no longer under the law and it is repeated in Hebrews 8.

Galatians 5:4 says we fall out of grace because we try to justify ourselves with the law.

To claim that the Sabbath will used to embarrass the church is foolishness and heresy. It is just another form of legalism (performance based) salvation and that is not what grace is about.

Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer by Tom Norris:

Steve, I think you misunderstand the Gospel Sabbath of Christ, as well as what I am saying about the church being embarrassed by the verdict of the Pre-Advent Judgment. Let me clarify a few points.

First, all Christians must follow Christ. He is the primary source and authority for all Gospel doctrine. This means that we must first understand what he teaches about the Sabbath, or any doctrine. Paul is not the Lord of the Sabbath, nor is he the source for any Gospel doctrine, much less the New Covenant Sabbath.

In fact, when Jesus was teaching his amazing Gospel Sabbath, Paul did not believe a word Jesus spoke; he was a great enemy of Christ. But yet, many try to understand and explain the Sabbath from Paul’s very limited and cryptic remarks in Romans and Colossians. As if Paul were the Lord of the Sabbath and the head theologian of the church. This is a mistake. Paul is neither.

Jesus is the head theologian of the church, as well as its Savior and High Priest. What he teaches about the New Covenant Sabbath, and all else, is what all must follow.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

The Gospels contain many specific Sabbath passages, like Matt 12, Mark 2 & 3, Luke 6, 13, 14, and John 5, 7, & 9. Thus Jesus explains, teaches, and defends his Reformed, New Covenant Sabbath over and over in the Gospels. Only a blind person could miss all this specific and targeted teaching about his reformed Gospel Sabbath. One cannot read the Gospel Story without having to face the controversial issue of the Sabbath many times.

This is true because Jesus often debated the Sabbath with the Jews who sent him to the cross, and this material is recorded over and over in all four Gospels. So we have a large record of Christ’s authentic teaching about the Sabbath for all to see. There is no need to ignore this treasure of truth, much less to spin it into false and worthless doctrine. Shame on the church for this great sin.

Those who ignore the clearly written and repeated, words of Christ about the Sabbath, --so they can run to Paul, and get the outcome they want, --are not being honest with the Word or themselves. They are playing games with their own Eternal Life by following a false Christ of their own worthless imagination and tradition.

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

For the record, Paul supports Christ’s view of the Sabbath; he is not opposed to it whatsoever. Those who think otherwise do not understand Jesus or Paul. They are not fit to teach the Word to others because they don’t know what they are talking about.

1Cor. 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

So what is the point of anyone trying to understand the New Covenant Sabbath from Paul? Jesus is the self proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath. He is the one that defined, debated, defended, and promoted a reformed doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath in all four Gospels. What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath is what the church, including Paul, must follow. Period.

What Does Jesus Teach about the Sabbath? This is the primary question?

To understand the genuine doctrine of the Sabbath, one must study and embrace what JESUS teaches in all four Gospels, which is a lot of material. Why does this point even need to be said?

Answer: Because the church, like the Jews, has gone blind and deaf to the Word of Christ. Tradition, personal opinion, and corruption are the basis for church doctrine today, not the Word.

Ezek. 12:2 “Son of man, you live in the midst of the rebellious house, who have eyes to see but do not see, ears to hear but do not hear; for they are a rebellious house.

Those who overlook Jesus’ written view of the New Covenant Sabbath are on the wrong path. They will never understand the Gospel Story correctly, much less be given Eternal Life, until they repent of their false and confused Sabbath views and allow themselves to be taught by the Word of Christ.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

Second, in Paul’s day, there was zero debate about Sunday versus the 7th day Sabbath. Sunday worship was not yet invented.

So Paul is not saying in Romans 14 that one can choose Sunday or Saturday for their Sabbath. That is an impossible interpretation. And so too the idea that doctrine is so pluralistic that “Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind” as to what is truth. (If this were true, doctrine can be whatever anyone wanted it to be, which is why the church is so divided and worthless today.)

Nor was Paul saying there is no Sabbath for the church. He does not say that in Colossians either, as many pretend.

The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … stions.htm

Let all that want to follow Christ, do so by understanding doctrine directly from the Words of Christ.

The teachings of Jesus about the New Covenant Sabbath is Gospel Truth for the church. Let all who claim to make a study of the Sabbath start with the Gospels and learn the Gospel Sabbath directly from Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath.

SDA Sabbath Wrong

As for the SDA’s, they do not understand the Law or the Gospel correctly, which is why they have a false, Old Covenant view of the Sabbath, where it is sinful and wrong to work on the 7th day. Jesus teaches no such view, and everyone that claims to have read the Gospels should know this self-evident and irrefutable fact.

I am not advocating the SDA Sabbath, but rather, the New Covenant, Reformed Sabbath of Christ. This is the correct, 7th day Sabbath for the Church.

The SDA’s are so confused about Two Covenants, that they have embraced the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Jews that rejected the Gospel and killed Christ, and yet they think they have found the correct Sabbath doctrine. They have only found the right day, not the genuine, NC doctrine. They have made fools of themselves for all to see, just like the Sunday keepers they condemn.

Under the Law

While the church is not “under law,” they are not lawless, or without law. Which is why the church, both RC and Protestant, have always viewed the Moral law as a standard for behavior, one that defines and judges sin.

In fact, the NT teaches that love is the fulfilling of the law, which means the Law has not been removed as some claim. If it were, there would be no love either.

Rom. 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Rom. 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

James 2:8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well.

This also explains why the church has practiced a weekly Sabbath as the Lord’s Day, even today. It is part of the Moral law as well as what is taught by Christ. So the church has always had a weekly Sabbath all these many years, even though it has been the wrong doctrine.

Those who view the 7th day Sabbath of Christ as legalism have misunderstood much. The Gospel Sabbath of Christ is not about obeying the 4th Commandment, but about receiving an EXEMPTION from Christ for NOT obeying it.

Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

Matt. 12:7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Here is a stunning view of the NC Sabbath that has been overlooked and misunderstood by the church for centuries. It is also the reason why the Jews sent Christ to the cross.

The New Covenant Sabbath is an acknowledgment of both the Law and the Sabbath, as well as the Creation Story. It also features Jesus' clear superiority over the Old Covenant Law, which required death for any but a special few who worked on the 7th day.

So the Gospel Sabbath is not legalism, but the opposite. It represents freedom in Christ and victory over sin and law. Those who try and keep the Sabbath holy by not working, (Sunday or Saturday), have misunderstood the Gospel. They are trying to please God by law keeping, just like the Jews.

Rom. 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

No one is going to fall from grace for embracing the active and reformed 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ. But all will fall short in the Judgment who have either rejected the law or the NC Sabbath as taught by Christ.

None who follow Christ are guilty of breaking the Old Covenant Sabbath by work or play on the 7th day, as many legalistically teach today. (While they are technically guilty, they are innocent, abiding in Christ, shielded from sin and judgment.)

The OC Sabbath is not like the NC Sabbath, and until this point is clearly understood, the Gospel Story will not be correctly comprehended.

The Gospel Sabbath is a living metaphor of the Gospel. It was a featured doctrine in the ministry of Christ, and the reason why the Jews sent him to the cross. At the end of time, when the genuine Gospel is preached, the Sabbath will once again become a featured Gospel topic that will amaze and divide the true sheep from the pretenders.

Jesus has much to say and teach about his NC Sabbath doctrine in all four Gospels. Those who study his words will understand both the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath. Those that do not, will remain confused, unable to grasp either.

Every Church Embarrassed

Today, every church and denomination has a false view of the Gospel Sabbath. Why? Because they are “blind” to the teachings of Christ. This is why Christ in the Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church condemns them all, including the SDA’s.

The Sunday Sabbath is not even the right day, much less the right doctrine. And those who have the right day, like the SDA’s, still have the wrong view of the Gospel and the Sabbath. So all teach a false and “wretched” Sabbath doctrine that reflects their “miserable” and wrong view of the Gospel.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

So both the Sunday and 7th day keepers are “blind” to the genuine Sabbath of Christ; unsaved as a result. And the SDA’s are the worst offenders because they claim to be the Sabbath experts, smarter than all others, but that has not turned out to be true. Heaven also calls them blind, naked, and unsaved. And so they are.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Today, every church in symbolic Laodicea, meaning every individual in every denomination, are called upon by Christ to REPENT of their false views of the Gospel Story, --including the utter nonsense and error about the doctrine of the Sabbath, which is the most visible and public of all church doctrine.

So I repeat the point; The Gospel Sabbath of Christ will humble, embarrass, and divide the last church. It will become a wedge doctrine that exposes the corrupt and incompetent nature of organized religion, separating those who want to follow the genuine Christ from the pretenders.

Heaven has made it clear that while the last church is quite satisfied with its’ various false views about the Sabbath, Christ is sickened by the error and confusion. Jesus has judged the present doctrines, (both Sunday or 7th day based) as being worthless and pathetic.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

In the genuine Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church, Christ warns all that claim to follow him to understand they have been misled to embrace a false Gospel and a false view of the law and the Sabbath. Those who are not embarrassed about this fact, and refuse to repent and follow the genuine Christ, are doomed.

I suggest that you do “an exhaustive study” about the Sabbath teaching of Christ from the Gospels, and then the rest of the NT. When you have completed this study, I am sure you will have a better understanding of this important Gospel topic.

Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

Tom Norris for All Experts.com & Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 01-11-13 2:24 pm

Tom,

I'm trying to find out if working on the Sabbath is a sin, (like getting money for working).

I want to know this because I have plans of joining the army where I may work on the Sabbath.

I know that I'm not saved by works, but by the grace of God, I just don't want to do something that will offend God.

Thanks

Moses, from Maryland
-------------------------------------------------------

Answer by Tom Norris:

Soldiers and the Sabbath

Most all are confused about how the law and the Gospel function. While many Christians acknowledge that they are “not saved by works,” their actions demonstrate that they do not fully understand what that means, especially when it comes to the doctrine of the Sabbath.

In addition, there is also confusion about whether one can be a good Christian and still be a soldier. Some claim this is impossible, and that it is sinful to participate in war. The 19th century SDA’s took this view. Listen to their position during the Civil War.

"While we thus cheerfully render to Caesar the things which the Scriptures show to be his, we are compelled to decline all participation in acts of war and bloodshed as being inconsistent with the duties enjoined upon us by our divine Master toward our enemies and toward all mankind."  

The Review and Herald, May 23, 1865.

Although the early SDA’s thought it wrong to be a soldier because it violated the 6th commandment and forced the breaking of the 4th, they changed their views during WWI. This led a group of German SDA’s to start their own SDA church that held to the earlier non-combatant view. They are called the Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement. (Which is not to be confused with “Adventist Reform” as promoted by Dr. Ford and Tom Norris).

The SDARM is very wrong about most everything, including their views about the war and the military and the Sabbath, as well as tithe and the IJ, etc.

http://www.sdarm.org/origin.htm
http://www.sdarm.org/index.php

The NT has much to say about the profession of being a soldier, and thus there is no excuse for anyone to be confused about this topic, or about the Sabbath, which Jesus explains over and over in the Gospels.

When the correct distinction is made between the law and the Gospel, the Sabbath doctrine, as taught by Christ, will come into clear view, as will many other issues. At this point, few that claim to follow Christ have any idea what he really teaches about many things, including and especially the Sabbath.

Law and Gospel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1122

Those who misunderstand the Gospel, which is every church and denomination, have also horribly misunderstood the Sabbath. Which is why not one church today has a correct view of the New Covenant Sabbath, -- including the SDA’s who have one of the most legalistic and anti-Gospel Sabbath doctrines possible.

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

The Sabbath

In the Old Covenant, working on the 7th day Sabbath was a capital crime. The OT records the death of a Sabbath breaker at the command of Moses. Even the slightest infraction, like collecting sticks to make a fire was viewed a very sinful and wrong. So the 4th commandment, which stands in the center of the 10 Commandments, became a very special and legalistic doctrine for the Jews. Both God and Moses were very clear about how the Sabbath law should be obeyed by those other than the Priests, who were exempt for the rules of the 4th commandment..

In fact, the Law and the Sabbath were so elevated in Judaism, that this was the reason why the Jews sent Christ to the cross. He not only broke the Sabbath Law, but also taught others to do the same, even claiming that he was Lord of the Reformed Sabbath, and that God also breaks the Sabbath by working on this day. There should be no doubt that Jesus broke the OC Sabbath law.

John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Many misunderstand Jesus. In the Gospels, Christ was not removing the Moral law or doing away with the Sabbath. Nor was he breaking the Sabbath to make the Jews angry, much less changing it to Sunday. Rather, he was teaching a new Sabbath doctrine that explained how the church was to view this ancient teaching that memorialized the Creation Story. He was also elevating the Gospel over Law, and reminding the church of his Gospel authority over the law - every week until he returns.

The Reformed Sabbath of Christ
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

Jesus taught an active and reformed version of the 7th day Sabbath for those who followed him. Contrary to popular myth, he did not teach either a Sunday Sabbath in any form, much less a non- working 7th day Sabbath. Rather, Christ teaches a New Covenant Sabbath were it is no longer a sin to work or play on the 7th day. Such a point makes the Sunday Blue Law laughable and absurd, not only because it is the wrong day, but because it is the wrong doctrine.

Unlike the OC, all are priests of God in the NC, and thus all are exempt from the forced rest of the 4th Commandment, just like the Levites in the Old Testament. This is the theological basis for the Gospel Sabbath of Christ, which has been a hidden doctrine from the church until just recently. The discussion about the 7th day Gospel Sabbath is paradigm shifting for the church.

The resting, legalistic Sabbath of the OC has been changed, reformed, and updated by Christ, the Lord and co-creator of the world and thus the one who invented the original the Sabbath. The NC version has been transformed into a living metaphor of the Gospel by Christ. Those who follow his teachings will understand the Gospel Sabbath and embrace the same view. Those who are too lazy to find truth will embrace a false Sabbath not endorsed by Christ.

A Christian Soldier

The NT does not prohibit military service; much less combat as some claim. Those who take such positions are not reading the Gospel Story correctly. While the Romans did not want any Jews in the army, because they would not work on the Sabbath, this was not the case with the Gentile Christians. They had no problem working on the 7th day, because neither did Christ.

In addition, the Holy Spirit made it clear to the apostles that Roman soldiers could indeed become Christians and join the church. Thus it was a Roman soldier that became the first baptized, Gentile Christian.

Moreover, even before the cross, we can see that John the Baptist was not teaching that gentile soldiers had to quit their profession in order to follow God. On the contrary, John makes it clear how they should act in their profession to please God.

Luke 3:14 Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”

Furthermore, Jesus interacted with many soldiers, even complementing one, without ever condemning their profession as unchristian. He even forgave the soldiers that nailed him to the cross.

Luke 7:6 Now Jesus started on His way with them; and when He was not far from the house, the centurion sent friends, saying to Him, “Lord, do not trouble Yourself further, for I am not worthy for You to come under my roof;

Luke 7:7 for this reason I did not even consider myself worthy to come to You, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed.

Luke 7:8 “For I also am a man placed under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.”

Luke 7:9 Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled at him, and turned and said to the crowd that was following Him, “I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such great faith.”

Paul, like Jesus, never condemned the military or repudiated the professional soldier. In fact, soldiers saved him from a mob, even as he often used this profession as a positive metaphor for those who served Christ.

2Tim. 2:3 Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.

Eph. 6:13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.

Eph. 6:14 Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,

Eph. 6:15 and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;

Eph. 6:16 in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

Eph. 6:17 And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Acts 21:30 Then all the city was provoked, and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.

Acts 21:31 While they were seeking to kill him, a report came up to the commander of the Roman cohort that all Jerusalem was in confusion.

Acts 21:32 At once he took along some soldiers and centurions and ran down to them; and when they saw the commander and the soldiers, they stopped beating Paul.

Paul makes it clear that God has established the Roman military, and thus God has also approved the profession of a soldier.

Rom. 13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

Titus 3:1 Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed,

**Roman Soldier Becomes First Gentile Christian

To further prove this point about soldiers being good Christians, one only needs to read how the Gentiles came into the church.

The NT records an amazing account of how a Roman soldier received a vision from God, and then went on to play a remarkable role in the development of important new church doctrine. In fact, it was this Roman soldier that became the first Gentile convert in the apostolic church, along with his “relatives and close friends.” (Acts 10:24)

Acts 10:1 Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,

Acts 10:2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.

Acts 10:3 About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision can angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!”

Acts 10:4 And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God.

Acts 10:5 “Now dispatch some men to Joppa and send for a man named Simon, who is also called Peter;

Acts 10:6 he is staying with a tanner named Simon, whose house is by the sea.”

Acts 10:7 When the angel who was speaking to him had left, he summoned two of his servants and a devout soldier of those who were his personal attendants,

Acts 10:8 and after he had explained everything to them, he sent them to Joppa.

http://www.bibleversestudy.com/acts/act … nelius.htm

God used a Gentile soldier to help the apostolic church better understand the Gospel. Thus it was to a Roman soldier that Peter spoke:

Acts 10:34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,

Acts 10:35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

Consequently, the first Gentile baptism in the apostolic church took place because of a Roman soldier, and in fact was a number of Roman soldiers and their family and friends. Thus, the Holy Spirit approved the profession of soldier in the church. No one has the authority to say otherwise today.

After these Roman soldiers were baptized, there were not to repudiate their profession in the name of Christ. No. No. They were now Christians and Roman soldiers. Moreover, the New Covenant Sabbath allowed them to work on the 7th day and thus the issue about breaking the Sabbath was moot. There was no such issue and there should not be one today.

Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.

Acts 10:45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

Acts 10:46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,

Acts 10:47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

Acts 10:48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

The whole issue about allowing Gentiles to enter the church involved Roman soldiers. They came in first. They were the first Gentile church members to be “granted” Eternal Life in the name of Christ!

Acts 11:17 “Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”

Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”

So this idea that it would be wrong to join the military, and to work on the 7th day, is flat out wrong on every possible level. The NT does not teach any such thing about either soldiers or the Sabbath.

Those whose minds are trapped in Old Covenant do not understand either the Gospel Story or the New Covenant Sabbath correctly. I suggest that all become more familiar with the NT in order to better understand the Gospel. It is not safe to rely on what the church, any church, teaches. All must go to the NT and learn the Gospel DIRECTLY from Christ’s Word and that of his apostles.

The Gospel of Christ allowed Gentiles to become part of the church, even as there was no longer any prohibition against work on the Sabbath. Thus one could be a Roman soldier and become a Christian, and remain both. The Old Covenant rules no longer applied. They did not have to change their profession or become circumcised to follow Christ.

Listen to Paul make this point:

1Cor. 7:17 Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk. And so I direct in call the churches.

1Cor. 7:18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.

1Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Note: While some think v19 would include the 4th commandment, Jesus’ teaching of the Gospel Sabbath prevents such a legalistic reading. And so too does many other passages from Paul, including his point that love is the fulfillment of the law.

Rom. 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Rom. 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Gospel Freedom

The Gentiles were not expected to repudiate either military service or even slavery for that matter. One could follow Christ as a soldier or a slave, and embrace the New Covenant Sabbath at the same time. Why? Because Jesus never taught that is was wrong for his followers to work on the Sabbath.

Both slaves and soldiers must work on the 7th day, and they do so with the full blessing of Christ, shielded from the demands of the 4th Commandment by the Gospel teaching of Christ.

1Cor. 7:20 Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.

1Cor. 7:21 Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that.

1Cor. 7:22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord’s freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ’s slave.

1Cor. 7:23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.

1Cor. 7:24 Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called.

In conclusion:

The Gospel does not teach a non-working Sabbath, where it is a sin to work on the 7th day. Nor does the NT teach that being a soldier is wrong or in any way against the Gospel or the New Covenant Sabbath of Christ.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 01-24-13 10:26 am

Question: Can you kindly explain what is meant by Sabbatarian Theology?
I would very much appreciate it if you could respond to my mail address.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom Norris Answered:

In our online discussions about Adventist Reform, the term “Sabbatarian theology” is usually a reference to those who embrace the 7th day Sabbath.

However, this is an old term and thus it can also refer to those who promoted the 7th day long before there were any SDA’s, or even the Sunday Sabbath. The context will determine. So it can be a reference to either the 7th day or Sunday.

Definition of Sabbatarianism

Sabbatarianism is a social trend, which focuses upon a very strict observance of the Sabbath. Traditionally, this observance is supported and enforced through the use of laws, which prohibit a wide variety of activities on the Sabbath. The idea that the government should enforce such public piety goes back to the Puritans, who did not believe that church and state should be separate…

http://atheism.about.com/library/glossa … ianism.htm
http://atheism.about.com/od/religioussy … oryLaw.htm

Here is a book that uses this term primarily to refer to the 7th day:

The seventh-day men: Sabbatarians and Sabbatarianism in England and Wales, 1600-1800

‘The Seventh-day Men’ was a title given by contemporaries in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries to an emerging body of Christians who observed Saturday, rather than Sunday, as the divinely appointed day of rest and worship.

This is the first fully documented history of the Sabbatarian movement in England and Wales in the two centuries following the Reformation. Drawing on many rare manuscripts and printed works, Dr Ball provides clear evidence that the movement was far more extensive than is often recognised, appearing in more than thirty countries.

The author suggests that the origins of the movement can be traced as far back as the Celtic tradition, and shows that the first ‘modern’ Sabbatarian appeared as early as 1402. He also explores the reasons why the movement declined in the eighteenth century.

As the first comprehensive study of the subject, this book establishes the Sabbatarian movement as a significant strand of thought in the history of English Nonconformity, with considerable influence on the religious life of the period.
http://research.avondale.edu.au/theo_books/1/

Puritan Sabbatarianism[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puritan_Sabbatarianism

Why Easter Makes Me a Sabbatarian
http://www.reformation21.org/featured/w … tarian.php

Sabbatarianism
http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/sabbatar.htm

Why I Am (sort of) a Sabbatarian
http://theaquilareport.com/why-i-am-sor … bbatarian/

The New Sabbatarians
http://oldlife.org/2009/03/the-new-sabbatarians/

After reviewing these links, you should have a good understanding about this term. Best Regards to you as you continue to study the Gospel,

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 01-25-13 10:51 am

Dear Tom,

First of all i would like to express my gratitude because you are very sincere in your quest for truth. I used to be a traditional adventist for almost 7 years but now i can step back and look at the SDA church from an external point of view and behold the doctrinal mess the church is preaching.

I think it's a religious crime to preach another gospel and use that other gospel to create a money-making bureaucracy. I thank God for people like Desmond Ford, Walter Martin, John Ankerberg. I am thoroughly convinced that many people fall into the SDA trap because traditional sound protestantism seems almost dead.

In the beginning i thought you were just a Jesuit spreading disinfo and confusion, i can't believe how blind i was.

Right now i came to accept the IJ as a huge error, the work-based gospel as a serious error (mildly put). Daniel 8 is talking about Antiochus Epiphany and the three angels' message judgement as the judgement of this world instead of the judgement of the saints (there is no such thing).

Now to go to the topic at hand; the Sabbath.

I very much appreciate and value your idea of a new-covenant sabbath. However i am not quite settled on this issue. You see, opponents of the sabbath suggest that it was a ceremonial law for the jews and defenders of the sabbath say it was a moral law. Now do you agree that the sabbath day was both ceremonial AND moral?

The ceremonial part constituted the commandment to take a total rest on the sabbath and was linked with the reason -For i am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt-.

Clearly then this part of the sabbath was an antitype for the rest Jesus gives us when we accept Him - All who are heavy labored come to me and I give you rest-. Jesus in this sense frees us as captives from sin and this world just like God freed the Jews from the oppression of Egypt.

However the moral part of the law says we should keep the sabbath because it refers back to creation, so this was not just a Jewish ceremonial law but a moral law for all mankind. You rightly point out that this law is to be kept as the priests kept it in the Jewish era, by offering spiritual sacrifices and doing good works on the sabbath. So does this mean that there remains therefore a sabbath rest?

Could you please present these thoughts in the light of Hebrews 4 which is very confusing. It talks about the rest of Joshua which is i believe the rest the jews got by entering the promised land, i believe this is an antitype for the rest we will receive in heaven. It also talks about the rest of God on the seventh day at the beginning of the world, AND it talks about a rest on the seventh day (sabbatismos)

Thank you.

Rogier,

Groningen, Netherlands

tom_norris · 01-26-13 5:00 pm

Question for Tom Norris of Adventist Reform: Is the Seventh Day literal or symbolic?

William St Simon
----------------------------------------------------------------

Answer: The 7th Day is both Literal & Symbolic:

The 7th day of the week primarily represents a 24-hour period that falls at the end of a 7-day weekly cycle.

The 7th day, as well as the other 6 days, are “literal,” being a measure of time (24 hours) for those who live on earth.

Moreover, for most ancient people, these days of the week also had symbolic meanings in addition to the primary and literal definition of time. Although the first common associations were with the Sun and the Planets, various Greek and Roman gods joined in the symbolism. This explains how the days are named to this very day.

However, the Jews only viewed the 7th day as symbolic, giving it a name with religious meaning, associated with their God. The other 6 days were only numbers; such as 1st day, 2nd day, 3rd day, etc., the 7th day being associated with the Genesis Creation Story, which is a memorial to the Creation of the world by the Jewish God of Abraham. Thus only one of out 7 days had a symbolic meaning in Judaism.

The Naming of the Days

The Greeks named the days week after the sun, the moon and the five known planets, which were in turn named after the gods Ares, Hermes, Zeus, Aphrodite, and Cronus. The Greeks called the days of the week the Theon hemerai "days of the Gods".

The Romans substituted their equivalent gods for the Greek gods, Mars, Mercury, Jove (Jupiter), Venus, and Saturn. (The two pantheons are very similar.) The Germanic peoples generally substituted roughly similar gods for the Roman gods, Tiu (Twia), Woden, Thor, Freya (Fria), but did not substitute Saturn.

http://www.crowl.org/lawrence/time/days.html#Wednesday

In Hebrew, the days of the week are simply numbered, except for the 7th, which is the Sabbath (Shabbat). In Arabic, the days of the week are also numbered, and the 7th day is still the Sabbath (asSabt), but the 6th day is now alJum'ah, the day of "gathering" (jum'), when Muslims pray at the mosque (jâmi').

In Modern Greek, the days are also numbered, and the 7th is still the Sabbath (Savvato), but the 1st day is now Kyriakê, the Lord's day. Interestingly, the 6th day in Greek is Paraskeuê, the "Preparation." This is actually the Jewish term, as preparation is made on the 6th day for the Sabbath -- preserved in a language today almost entirely of Christians, but formerly of many Jews in the Hellenistic and Roman periods.

While the Eastern Mediterranean languages reflect variations on a simple numbering of the days of the week, the languages of Western Europe all (except Portuguese) reflect names based on the names of the naked eye planets, which included the Sun and the Moon, either in a Latin version or a corresponding Germanic version.

The 1st day in Latin is named after the Sun (Solis dies), but Christians also consider that the Lord's day (Dominicus dies), as in Greek. The 2nd day is named after the Moon (Lunae dies). The 3rd day is named after Mars (Martis dies). The 4th day is named after Mercury (Mercurii dies). The 5th day is named after Jupiter, or Jove (Jovis dies). The 6th day is named after Venus (Veneris dies). And the 7th day is named after Saturn (Saturni dies), though it can still be called the Sabbath (Sabbatum or Sabbati dies).

http://www.friesian.com/week.htm

Tom Norris said: It should be clear to all that the 7th day is a literal, 24-hour period at the end of the 7- day weekly cycle. Moreover, this day also has symbolic significance to many people, especially for the Jews and some Christians.

But this begs the question, what about us today? What symbolic significance does the 7th day hold for those who claim to follow Christ and his Gospel teachings in the 21st century? How should this day be viewed today?

21st Century Viewpoint of the 7th Day

For the modern Christian Sunday Keeper, the 7th day has no significance. They correctly associate this day with the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Jews. And thus it is viewed as an error that should not be repeated. They also view the 1st Day (Sunday) as the New Covenant Sabbath for the Gentile church.

However, if you ask an SDA, they will tell you that the 7th day represents obedience to the Moral law of the 4th commandment, which is still binding on all in the NC today. They will also say it represents spiritual and physical rest, identifying those who follow the true Christ from those that are lawbreakers.

Christ teaches neither view. Which means the Church has a serious problem because they do not understand the Gospel of Christ, much less his doctrine of the New Covenant Sabbath.

Anyone that reads the Gospels will soon discover that Jesus did not teach that the 1st day of the week would become the NC Sabbath for the church. Nor did he teach that those who follow him must obey the 4th commandment by not working on the 7th day. These two points are irrefutable.

Both of these commonly taught views about Sunday and the 7th day are flat out wrong. They are not even close to being correct Gospel doctrine. Shame on those who claim to understand the Gospel, but do not. Shame on those who misrepresent the Words of Christ and promote false doctrine in his name.

No wonder Jesus predicts that the last church will be totally blind to the Gospel, needing to repent and reform their “wretched” doctrines.

Jesus view of the 7th day is what matters most. Especially since he claimed authority over this symbolic day, which had so much meaning to the law based Jews.

It is Jesus’ view of the 7th day that must be embraced by those who follow him. He is the head theologian of the church, as well as its’ Savior. What he teaches about the Gospel Sabbath must be correctly understood, embraced, and promoted by those who claim Eternal Life in his name. This is also an irrefutable point.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Jesus Teaches 7 irrefutable points about the NC Sabbath:

1. Jesus Claims Authority Over the Sabbath Doctrine

2. Gospel Sabbath is Made for Humanity

3. 7th day Sabbath is NOT Removed or Changed to Sunday

4. Sabbath is still a Memorial to Creation in the NC

5. Jesus Reformed the Sabbath to Allow Work

6. The 7th day features Communal Worship, Praise & Gospel Teaching

7.The NC Sabbath Represents Freedom from the Guilt of Law Breaking, including and especially the 4th Commandment.

Let all understand; The NC Sabbath is a living metaphor for the Gospel. When the Sabbath of Christ is correctly understood, so too the Gospel of Christ. The opposite is also true. An incorrect view of the Sabbath will result in a serious misunderstanding of the genuine Gospel of Christ.

Reformed 7th Day Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

SDA Sabbath vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

For the past many hundreds of years, the church has been divided, confused, and wrong about the doctrine of the Sabbath. For the most part, they did not even have the correct day and that is still the case today!

Moreover, when those like the SDB’s or the SDA’s embraced the proper day, the 7th, they still embraced the wrong doctrine, ignoring what Christ teaches, even embracing the Old Covenant view of his enemies.

Today there is no longer any excuse for such blindness and error. It is time for the Laodicean Church, meaning all denominations, to repent of their many false views of the Gospel, of which the Sabbath is the most visible and public. All need to REPENT as directed by Christ in the genuine Pre-Advent Judgment of the church, which is Rev 3: 14, not Dan 8: 14.

I trust this helps you better understand the discussion about the New Covenant 7th day Sabbath of Christ. Here is Gospel truth for those who are serious about following Christ for Eternal Life.

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 04-02-13 11:39 am

Rogier said: Dear Tom, First of all i would like to express my gratitude because you are very sincere in your quest for truth.

Tom said: Those who understand the Gospel have an obligation and duty to speak out. This is the duty of all.

The Gospel is only found by those honestly looking for truth. All that seek Eternal Life must search the Word to find and understand Gospel truth. Only a minority will find Eternal life.

Matt. 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

The Protestant Reformation elevated Gospel truth above tradition and torture. The cry of “Scripture Alone” led many to reject the Old Covenant based errors of the RCC and understand the New Testament more correctly.

The Adventists and the later SDA’s also embraced this correct hermeneutic where the search for truth was a driving force. They, like others before them, had the proper attitude about the need to search for more Bible truth. Which is why they found new insights in the Word, correcting error and launching an eschatological platform that stands to this very day, (even though it needs correction and more truth).

Over time, error, tradition, and bureaucracy ruin the original spirit of any movement or religion, including Judaism and the apostolic church. Both paradigms were started by God and full of truth. But over time, they went very bad. This is what always happens, which is why new movements must press truth forward as others fall by the wayside.

Today it is obvious that neither the SDA’s nor their many critics, are searching for truth. Rather, they are both content to defend rumors and debate silly myths as if there were true, even as they each turn away from the facts that prove them both theologically confused and historically disoriented.

Where is the search for truth? There is none. Only debate and counter debate, with both sides locked into their incorrect positions. This is no way to find truth or understand Gospel Eschatology.

The Gospel can only be understood, much less embraced, by those who honestly care about truth. Those too proud to repent, or too busy or loyal to find the facts, will not understand the NT or comprehend the Gospel.

The same goes for any that have sold their souls to the SDA’s for a job and pension. They may think they are saved and that Jesus is their friend, but they are blind and clueless about their ignorant and unsaved condition.

Listen to Ellen White speak to the stubborn, traditional minded SDA’s of her day that refused to be honest about the Word and the Gospel. This is how SDA’s, and many former SDA’s, still act.

Is It True?

“Those who allow prejudice to bar the mind against the reception of truth cannot receive the divine enlightenment.”

“Yet, when a view of Scripture is presented, many do not ask; Is it true—in harmony with God’s word? But by whom is it advocated? And unless it comes through the very channel that pleases them, they do not accept it.”

“So thoroughly satisfied are they with their own ideas that they will not examine the Scripture evidence with a desire to learn, but refuse to be interested, merely because of their prejudices.”

"The Lord often works where we least expect Him; He surprises us by revealing His power through instruments of His own choice, while He passes by the men to whom we have looked as those through whom light should come. God desires us to receive the truth upon its own merits—because it is truth."

Ellen White, TM 105-106.

It is critical for those that seek Gospel Truth do so with a proper, teachable, frame of mind. This is the correct attitude to learn truth.

In addition, the Gospel Story shows that those who should have truth, don’t. Truth does not come from organized corruption, but rather to overthrow it. Gospel Truth comes from unexpected and unlikely sources, not from those controlled or brainwashed by false religion.

John 4:23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

John 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Rogier said: I used to be a traditional adventist for almost 7 years but now i can step back and look at the SDA church from an external point of view and behold the doctrinal mess the church is preaching.

Tom said: The SDA’s have painted themselves into a corner, with no way out except repentance and reform. Their present course is not correct or sustainable. Their blind leaders still pretend Dr. Ford was wrong at Glacier View. They still think they have no false doctrine for which to repent.

So they have chosen to live in denial, refusing to admit the obvious and repent. Not only that, because they are a $30 Billion organization, they figure if they spend millions on Media Centers, Public Relations experts, and endless Propaganda, they can sell their confused story to the public regardless if it is true or not. The SDA’s have determined to make what is false look like truth, and for this they must be condemned.

Such a strategy to brainwash and control may have worked in the past, but there is too much information available for it to work today. Which is why the SDA church cannot grow in North America.

The more people come to understand the general difference between the Old Covenant and New Covenant view of the Gospel Story, the worse SDA theology appears. Even the most simple minded can tell that the SDA view of doctrine it Old Covenant and wrong. When such an obvious conclusion is joined with the scandals in the White Estate and Glacier View, what would anyone do? They would run from the SDA’s, which is what is taking place for all to see.

Thanks to honest scholars and teachers, like Dr. Ford, many have come to understand the basic difference between Law and Gospel. As a result, the OC SDA view of the Sabbath, as well as the IJ and Ellen White, is causing a great backlash, which is destroying the Advent Movement, ruining what was once so full of truth and promise.

Traditional SDA doctrine is so wrong today, that their many errors, like the IJ, cannot be rehabilitated or defended any more. The Adventists only make matters worse by pretending they have no error. This is absurd. The SDA’s must repent for their many errors, including the exile of Dr. Ford, and re-establish the genuine doctrinal pillars that define the Three Angels Messages.

But it all starts with the IJ, which can no longer be defended by any SDA apologist or scholar as either being correct, or being a “pillar.” Our friend Herb Kersten recently discovered this the hard way. This so called IJ “expert” has run away in well-deserved humiliation and disgrace, proving to all that no one can defend the IJ. It is the wrong Pre-Advent Judgment.

Tom Norris vs Herb Kersten
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … s-herb.htm

Although the SDA’s have gone to extreme lengths to defend the IJ and their view of the Sabbath, it is not working. As you can see, their OC views are so easily demolished, that long time SDA’s are still leaving the church today.

Leaving The SDA Church
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=233

Even those, like Patricia Allen, who worked for the church for 37 years, and paid no attention to Dr. Ford, eventually wake up and realize that there is great error within Adventism.

Patricia Allen- Former SDA
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-12303 … -Allen.htm

Finding error in SDA doctrine is inevitable. So great is the error of the IJ, that no one who honestly studies it is going to do anything but admit it is gross and impossible error that must be rejected. Anyone that cannot see this clearly, does not understand church history or the Bible correctly, much less the Gospel Story.

Tom Norris, Ellen White, & the IJ – Patricia Allen
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … hite-2.htm

But yet, the SDA leaders still refuse to confess and repent, much less correct the false record in the White Estate. This in turn leads people to believe that everything SDA’s teach is as absurd as the IJ, and that they must have no truth. Which is not true at all.

Adventist theology, correctly understood, remains cutting edge eschatology for the last church. This is why there must be Adventist Reform. Who else even cares about a “pre-advent judgment”? Such a detail is important in the study of eschatology. Good for the SDA’s to understand this point. But the IJ is the wrong PAJ. The correct one is in Rev 3: 14.

The Advent Movement must relocate their fundamental bearings, repent for their many errors, and move forward to complete their Gospel mission to prepare the church for the great tribulation and 2nd Coming.

Rogier said: I think it's a religious crime to preach another gospel and use that other gospel to create a money-making bureaucracy. I thank God for people like Desmond Ford, Walter Martin, John Ankerberg. I am thoroughly convinced that many people fall into the SDA trap because traditional sound protestantism seems almost dead.

Tom said: All religion today is false and worthless. This is what Jesus is saying in the genuine Pre-Advent Judgment of Rev 3: 14. Every church and denomination has a false view of the law and Gospel, including the Sabbath, for which they must repent.

As for Protestantism, it has been dead for many years. Moreover, there is no fully correct Protestant church. None.

In fact, it was the SDA’s that were supposed to complete the Protestant Reformation. They looked forward to a time, just before the 2nd Coming, when the Protestant Gospel would be articulated so correctly and clearly that it would represent the theological completion of the Protestant Reformation. And they viewed themselves as promoting this final Gospel Reformation shown in Rev 18.

However, in both 1888 and 1980, the SDA’s showed that they are not fully Protestant. Both EJ Waggoner and Dr. Ford were both exiled from the SDA’s because they told the truth about the Gospel. Like good Protestants, they refused to be silenced or wink at false doctrine.

SDA stance on Martin Luther
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Luther.htm

Martin Luther vs(?) SDA
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … her-vs.htm

Had the SDA’s listened to Waggoner or Dr. Ford, they would be far ahead of their present precarious situation. Many would have flocked to New Covenant Adventism years ago. But there was no such paradigm shift in 1888 or 1980. Old Covenant Adventism took full control, and the SDA’s entered into great schism each time. Now they are self-destructing for all to see.

However, the very thought of NC Adventism is still exciting. It is the only hope for the SDA’s. If they fail for a third time, this will be the end for them.

I remember during the Ford debates; Geoffrey Paxton, an Anglican theologian became so interested in modern SDA theology that he visited some SDA churches to tell them that if they removed the IJ and fully embraced the NT, as Dr. Ford was teaching, he would become SDA. He thought the SDA’s were positioned to complete the Reformation and prepare the last church for the end of the world and the Judgment Day.

But the leaders, like the Pharisees of old, refused to repent for their OC ways. They embraced the IJ with both hands and exiled Dr. Ford. Then they started self-destructing for all to see. The SDA’s are great fools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Paxton

http://www.christianlibrary.org.au/inde … &Itemid=70

http://www.presenttruthmag.com/7dayadve … index.html

http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/ … toring.pdf

Rogier said: In the beginning i thought you were just a Jesuit spreading disinfo and confusion, i can't believe how blind i was.

Tom said: Truth and error lie next to each other, confusing most all. When Jesus preached the Gospel, many assumed he was insane, controlled by Satan and full of outrageous and impossible doctrinal error. If the Jews could be so easily fooled, what about us today? We are even more prone, as modern Gentiles, to embrace myth and error, which is why it is everywhere in the church.

What often seems like truth, is not, even as what is true, seems impossible and very wrong. That is why it is so important to understand the Word and treat it correctly. It is the only objective way to know what is Gospel truth and what is error. Our Eternal fate will be determined by our response and reaction to the Gospel teaching of Christ in the NT. Nothing else.

David R. & the TSDA's
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … tsda-s.htm

Rogier said: Right now i came to accept the IJ as a huge error, the work-based gospel as a serious error (mildly put), Daniel 8 as talking about Antiochus Epiphany and the three angels' message judgement as the judgement of this world instead of the judgement of the saints (there is no such thing).

Tom said: I am sure Herb Kersten is not pleased with the outcome of our short, public, IJ discussion. In fact, it was your question on All Experts that caused Herb to enter into a debate with Tom Norris to try and defend the IJ. So your good confession highlights his great failure.

As we all know, Herb ran away, rather then confess his error and repent. But running away does not make error into truth, nor does dodging the questions that prove the IJ wrong, help in any way.

All SDA’s must repent of the IJ if they want to go forward in Gospel truth. There is no such doctrine as the IJ in Dan 8: 14 or anywhere else in the Bible. But there is a PAJ, and it is found in Rev 3: 14.

The Advent Community needs to understand this critical point and move forward to embrace the correct PAJ, developing a credible NC view of Gospel Eschatology in the process. This is their duty and destiny, the reason why Adventism exists.

Rogier said: Now to go to the topic at hand; the Sabbath. I very much appreciate and value your idea of a new-covenant sabbath.

Tom said: First off, Jesus is the one who introduced this “idea of a NC Sabbath.” I can take no credit because this reformed, 7th day Sabbath is clearly recorded in all four Gospels.

The fact that it has not been fully understood all these years by any church, much less the SDA’s is stunning, to say the least, but still beside the point. I don’t deserve credit for pointing out what has been in the Gospels since the 1st century. But thank you anyway.

While I admit this new view of the Sabbath / Lord’s Day seems “new” and very different from any other position, so what? All that matters is what Jesus and the Spirit teach in the NT. Tradition does not matter, nor does our feelings or bad habits. What does Christ teach about the NC Sabbath? This alone determines doctrinal truth.

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Matt. 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Matt. 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Note v 20: It does not say; “teaching them to observe everything except Jesus Sabbath teaching.” No. The NC Sabbath of Christ is to be embraced by the church until the end of the age. This doctrine is not excluded as many think.

As for the “value” of Jesus Sabbath teaching; it is enormous. The NC Sabbath of Christ amazed and divided the Jews, shocking their leaders into a rage that sent him to the cross. So it will be again with the Gentile Church. They too will become divided over the Gospel teachings of Christ.

Jesus’ genuine doctrine of the Gospel and the Sabbath stuns the mind. And so too the fact that the NC Sabbath condemns every church today, including the SDA’s, who have embraced the OC Sabbath of Christ’s enemies, all the while declaring they have found truth.

The Gospel is the most amazing doctrine in the history of the world. And so too the Gospel Sabbath, which played such a large role in the ministry and teaching of Christ. To understand the Gospel correctly is to also understand the Gospel Sabbath. Fail to comprehend the Reformed Sabbath of Christ, and you can be sure you don’t understand the Gospel correctly.

Rogier said: However i am not quite settled on this issue.

Tom said: This reformed Sabbath doctrine is so “new,” that few people today have ever heard such theology. So don’t feel bad. The SDA’s are so stunned by this new concept that they refuse to discuss it. Moreover, the New Covenant Sabbath crowd became angry and also went into denial. It seems that many would rather debate old doctrines from 1844 instead of Jesus teachings that are staring them in the face. Silly SDA’s.

NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953

It would have been great if Herb had agreed to discuss the Sabbath doctrine. If you think the SDA’s lose badly when discussing the IJ, (which they do), just wait until they try to defend their OC view of the Sabbath. The outcome will be the same, - A total disaster. Which is why Herb ran away from debating the Sabbath as well as the IJ.

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

So it will take some time for people to study the Gospel Sabbath and work it out in a practical manner. But it is obviously truth, because this doctrine is clearly taught by Christ in all four Gospels over and over. Only the NC teachings of Jesus can settle this issue and define truth.

At this point, there is so much false doctrine and myth taught about the Gospel Story, - how can there be anything but confusion in the church today? When the law and the Gospel are both correctly understood, and the authority of Jesus’ Word is embraced over tradition, the Reformed Sabbath of Christ will become easy to understand and embrace.

This “new” Sabbath doctrine represents, reflects, and supports the genuine Gospel of Christ. Those who are following the many other Sabbath doctrines, - are not following the historical Jesus of the NT. Nor do they understand the Gospel Story. They are in great danger.

Rogier said: You see, opponents of the sabbath suggest that it was a ceremonial law for the jews and defenders of the sabbath say it was a moral law. Now do you agree that the sabbath day was both ceremonial AND moral?

Tom said: This debate over moral and ceremonial is silly, as if they are mutually exclusive. They are not. Many of the ceremonial aspects of the OC Temple Services represented the Gospel and the New Covenant. They stopped because the NC had arrived. Not because it was wrong to practice ceremonial ordinances. Both the OC and the NC has ritual and ceremonies, even as they both deal with law.

The Sabbath is both moral law and religious ceremony, and the Jews have made this clear for thousands of years. The 4th Commandment is “moral” in the sense that the God of the Jews made holy the 7th day to memorialize the Creation Story. God then placed it in the middle of the 10 Commandments, thus making it Moral as well as ceremonial.

The 7th day is set-aside in Jewish culture for the congregation to serve their God, and to worship and obey him as the Creator of the world. The various rituals involved were also part of this “moral” doctrine. Which is both law and ritual every 7th day for the Jews.

While the Jews had numerous ceremonies and Temple rituals, the Christian faith also embraced a number of ceremonial laws and ritual, without which, one cannot become a Christian or even practice this Faith. Thus there is baptism and the Eucharist, as well as Gospel preaching and Sabbath fellowship every 7th day, as well as singing and prayer and some other ceremonies.

So there is nothing wrong with the Christian Faith having some ceremonial laws and ritual. Christ taught such things for the church, including how to embrace the NC Sabbath, which is both a Moral law and a reformed ceremonial law for the church. What Jesus teaches about the Gospel Sabbath is what the church must follow. His Sabbath is not the same as the Sabbath of Moses.

Rogier said: The ceremonial part constituted the commandment to take a total rest on the sabbath and was linked with the reason -For i am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt-. Clearly then this part of the sabbath was an antitype for the rest Jesus gives us when we accept Him - All who are heavy labored come to me and I give you rest-. Jesus in this sense frees us as captives from sin and this world just like God freed the Jews from the oppression of Egypt.

Tom said: The ceremonial part was more than forced rest. It also included the gathering of the congregation for Temple services; to also sing, pray, read the scriptures, etc. By the 1st century, the synagogue model was the focal point for the local people to meet every Sabbath. Not only to fulfill the moral law, but to also fulfill the ceremonial aspects of this law as well.

Jesus put his stamp of approval on such “ceremonial” activity on the 7th day. But he also gave an exemption for all to work on this day and not be guilty. Such a change in the Sabbath was forbidden by the OC leaders. Jesus was sent to the cross because of his reformed Sabbath views.

Rogier said: However the moral part of the law says we should keep the sabbath because it refers back to creation, so this was not just a Jewish ceremonial law but a moral law for all mankind. You rightly point out that this law is to be kept as the priests kept it in the Jewish era, by offering spiritual sacrifices and doing good works on the sabbath. So does this mean that there remains therefore a sabbath rest?

Tom said: Jesus teaches that the NC Sabbath was made for all mankind. This is because it relates to the creation of the world, as well as to the Gospel, which is for both Jew and Gentile.

There were two doctrines of the Sabbath in the OC. Most Jews could not work, but the Priests had to work on the Sabbath. Thus the Priests had an “exemption” relating to the 4th commandment.

In the NC, all are priests of God. Jesus gives all the same Sabbath exemption that the Levites enjoyed. Thus he upholds the law as well as the Gospel, using his authority over the law and priesthood to craft a combination doctrine that represents both the moral law and the ceremonial aspects of the NC Sabbath.

Those who go to church on the 7th day to sing, pray and hear the Gospel, and then go to work at the office in the afternoon, or paint the house, are following the Reformed Sabbath of Christ. Those who think it sinful to work on the Sabbath, or Sunday, are clueless about the Gospel teachings of Christ, much less about his Gospel Sabbath.

Rogier said: Could you please present these thoughts in the light of Hebrews 4 which is very confusing. It talks about the rest of Joshua which is i believe the rest the jews got by entering the promised land, i believe this is an antitype for the rest we will receive in heaven. It also talks about the rest of God on the seventh day at the beginning of the world, AND it talks about a rest on the seventh day (sabbatismos)

Tom said: One must first understand the NC Sabbath teachings of Jesus in the Gospels before trying to understand this doctrine from the rest of the NT. All Gospel doctrine starts and ends with Christ and what he teaches. And guess what? If you compared all Jesus words about the Sabbath in the Gospels, with those in the rest of the NT, what do you think you would find?

Answer: Jesus has spoken far more about the Sabbath than all the rest of the NT authors combined. Far, far more. So why do people ignore this vast amount of Sabbath teaching from Christ and focus on a few isolated passages where others hardly mention the doctrine? Strange.

The words of Christ, the head theologian of the church, must take precedence for all doctrine. What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath is what the church must follow. Period!

Those who quote a small passage here, and another comment over there, have missed the forest for the trees. It seems they don’t really want to know what Christ has to say about the Sabbath, so they are looking for more direction. But this is a mistake. Jesus has spoken in detail about the Sabbath in passage after passage in the Gospels. In fact, some of his most spiritual statements are spoken in the context of debating the Sabbath with his enemies.

The point being, let all go to Christ in the Gospels and learn his Gospel Sabbath. He will be happy to teach it to all that seek Gospel truth.

With that said, the passage in Hebrews 4 supports the NC Sabbath of Christ, even as the author makes it clear that the believers should meet weekly.

Heb. 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;

Heb. 10:24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,

Heb. 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

Here is a link to a discussion about Hebrews 4:

The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242

Conclusion:

Thank you for taking the time to study and research the issues. You were correct to be open to those, like Herb Kristen, who claimed to have new light about the IJ and the Gospel. He was making some very large, even slanderous, claims against Dr. Ford, which blew up in his face for all to see. So now we know he was full of false doctrine as are all the SDA’s.

But regardless, we must always keep an open attitude to find more truth, especially when there is so much error around. Those who are serious about Eternal Life will only embrace the Word to understand Gospel truth.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 04-04-13 11:34 am

Thanks Tom, for helping me find the one true gospel!

I do believe in NCT actually, but i don't see any objections to keeping the sabbath as you explain it.

May God bless you and lead you,

In christ,

Rogier

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -moral.htm

tom_norris · 04-07-13 11:43 am

The True Gospel

Let all understand; the true Gospel of Christ is accompanied with the true Sabbath of Christ. While the divided Laodicean Church promotes numerous incorrect versions of the Gospel, -along with many incorrect Sabbath doctrines, - there is only one genuine Gospel and one correct, New Covenant, doctrine of the Sabbath. There is only one true Christ, not many.

Eph. 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;

Eph. 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Eph. 4:6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Today, the Gospel is so misunderstood by the organized church, that not one denomination teaches the true NC Sabbath. This is what the PAJ in Rev 3: 14 addresses; a blind church that has a distorted and worthless Gospel.

When the Gospel Story is fully and correctly understood, - so too the true doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, - as well as the correct view about the Judgment, church organization, eschatology, etc. All true doctrine becomes clear in the light of the Gospel, even as the false fades away.

NCT (so called by themselves) denies there is a weekly NC Sabbath for the church. They deny Jesus taught the church any Sabbath doctrine, even as they claim Jesus is our Sabbath rest, which is viewed by them as an everyday spiritual, allegorical, Sabbath.

Then this group meets on Sunday; further underscoring their confusion and hypocrisy. They are following a false Christ of their own making.

NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953

NCT does not acknowledge, understand, nor embrace the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. The founders of this new doctrine ignore and deny Jesus NC teaching about the Sabbath, even as they place false words in his mouth.

NCT theology is as bad as the legalistic errors it seeks to correct. It is as false as the IJ or the Sunday Lord’s Day. The NT does not support what they teach and neither should anyone that claims to follow the teaching of Christ, the Lord of the New Covenant Sabbath.

There is only one Gospel and one Gospel Sabbath (or Lord’s Day) for the Church. Only one.

The challenge for all Laodiceans today is to find the correct Gospel, which also includes and features the reformed, NC, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.

The truth about the Gospel Sabbath will lead to more truth, like to the genuine Pre-Advent Judgment of Christ, which is found Rev 3: 14. There is much new truth waiting for those who seek it, starting with the truth about the Gospel Sabbath.

No one should accept a counterfeit doctrine of the Sabbath. To do so is to embrace a false Christ and worthless Gospel.

Luke 11:34 “The eye is the lamp of your body; when your eye is clear, your whole body also is full of light; but when it is bad, your body also is full of darkness.

Matt. 24:24 “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for All Experts & Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 06-08-13 4:23 pm

Here is some discussion with a former SDA who has embraced the myth of the Every Day Sabbath. It was posted in another section, but it fits best on this thread about the Reformed Sabbath:

Everything that does not come from faith is sin
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1176

Bob 2 asked: Please share with us, Tom, where "Christ has a clear and specific teaching about the NC Sabbath." Please be brief, for the benefit of our reduced readership.

Tom replied: You act as if this is a difficult task. As if Christ did not teach anything “specific” about the Sabbath? He did, as anyone can see that reads the Gospels honestly.

Moreover, there are more people reading about Adventist Reform then ever before. Just look at the large number of hits for the Reformed Sabbath. Even when there is little or no discussion, people are still finding out about the 7th day Gospel Sabbath here and at the All Experts.Com site.

It is only a matter of time before the NC Sabbath becomes a well-known, serious doctrine for those who are honest about following Christ and take the NT as the word of God.

Here are some specific Sabbath points that Jesus teaches in the Gospels. When you read these holy sayings, keep in mind that the word “Sabbath,” only means the weekly 7th day version. Not Sunday, or the Every Day allegorical doctrine of the confused NCT crowd.

Mark 2:24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”

There is no excuse for anyone to miss-understand what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. This is why we have the Gospels, which contain the authentic words of Christ, including a record of his many Sabbath debates with the Jewish leaders.

Those who think the NC Sabbath is Sunday, or No Day, or Every Day, have only to compare their views with Christ in the Gospels. Such a study will show that Christ teaches none of these views.

The same goes for the SDA’s. Their view of the Sabbath matches up with the enemies of Christ; not with what Jesus teaches.

So the Adventists, like all others, are way off base, standing in a very dangerous position, much like the 1st century Jews who also fought against the Gospel, - and lost.

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Jesus teaches that the NC Sabbath, like the world itself, and the Gospel, and the Church, are for all mankind.

Jesus, the creator of the world and the Sabbath and the church, only supports a weekly 7th day Sabbath for the church. This passage is repeated in the other Gospels to make sure it is not missed.

How could you miss this fundamental Sabbath teaching?

Jesus is not talking about the OC Sabbath, which was made for the Jews, but the NC Sabbath of which he claimed to be its Lord and protector.

Jesus takes authority over the doctrine of the Sabbath and reforms it into a very different, active doctrine, one that better reflects the Gospel.

Those who claim the Sabbath has been abolished in the NC, or that it is now Sunday, or Every Day, are not following Christ or his Gospel. They are repudiating him.

This goes double for those SDA’s so foolish as to claim that Christ demands obedience to the 4th commandment. He does not, not, not.

In fact, he gives all that follow him a “Priestly Exemption” from having to obey the OC Sabbath law. Which means that the SDA’s have the wrong view of the Sabbath. They did manage to get the right day, but so too did the Jews. What good did that do them?

To make matters even more confusing, this newly invented (circa 1970) view about the Every Day Sabbath of spiritual rest is incompatible with the Sabbath teachings of Christ. It is just more diversion that takes people away from the genuine Gospel teachings of Christ.

Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Jesus is not the Lord of the Every Day Sabbath, because there is no such doctrine. Those who claim this is what Jesus teaches, are walking away from Christ. They are on a false path that has no support from the NT.

Jesus also teaches that those who fail to comprehend his NC Sabbath are blind.

In fact, after healing the man born blind on the Sabbath, the now sighted man was excommunicated from Judaism. Why? For participating in the sin of Sabbath breaking and defending Jesus theology. However, the healed man determined to follow Jesus, as well as embrace what he teaches about the active, working, 7th day Sabbath.

Read the Gospels and learn from this record.

John 9:32 “Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind.

John 9:33 “If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.”

John 9:34 They answered him, “You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?” So they put him out.

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

John 9:36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”

John 9:37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.”

John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.

So here is the question Bob: “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

If so, you must embrace what Jesus teaches about the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath, just like in this Gospel Story. Believe and worship; in that order.

Understand that we are the man born blind in this Sabbath story. We too are living in the dark, under the guilt and power of the OC. We need to be healed by Christ so we can understand his Gospel teachings, including and especially what he teaches about the Sabbath.

All that follow the true Christ, will understand what he teaches about the 7th day weekly Sabbath. They will not care if they are thrown out and condemned by their religious leaders.

They will “worship Christ,” the Lord of the NC Sabbath, on the 7th day Sabbath in spite of those who protest. Just like the healed man in the story did. He no longer followed the OC Sabbath laws or what his religious leaders taught. Only what Christ, his new savior teaches.

In the 1st century, the debate about the Sabbath separated those who believed in Christ and those who did not. So it will be today.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

This powerful statement from Jesus is all about the NC Sabbath. This is the context and the meaning. The OC minded can’t understand the Sabbath teachings of Christ. Many choose to remain blind and unsaved, unwilling to learn from Christ and embrace the Gospel.

Bob, I suggest that you read the Gospels to better understand the Sabbath teachings of Christ. Do not be like the faithless Jews who refused to consider that their views could be wrong. That was a fatal mistake.

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.

John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

Jesus teaches that salvation only comes from following the genuine Christ. He can be easily identified by his controversial Sabbath teaching, which led him to the cross for our salvation.

Those who embrace other views are not following Christ.

Those who honestly follow Christ will understand and embrace his controversial, 7th day Sabbath teaching. They will not make up new Sabbath days, like Sunday, or claim the Sabbath is now an Every Day spiritual doctrine. Nor will they follow the enemies of Christ, like the SDA’s have done, by embracing the Sabbath of Moses.

It is time for the church to wake up and grow up. It is time for Gospel Reform within the Adventist Community.

Bob 2 said: Also, tell us why 95% of Christianity gets it wrong and we self proclaim the only ones that got it.

Tom said: First off, NCT is the one claiming that all others are wrong, and that they alone have solved the Sabbath debate with this absurd doctrine about an Every Day spiritual Sabbath. So you have this backwards.

Second, the entire church, starting with Jesus and the apostles, has always had a weekly, NC Sabbath. This is correct. The fact that Sunday was an error is beside the point. The Church has always practiced a weekly, NC Sabbath. Your attempt to claim there is no such weekly doctrine is absurd and against the Gospel record and practice of the church.

Third, at the end of time, there will be a Gospel reformation in the church. At that time, the Gospel will be fully preached, including the reformed, controversial, NC Sabbath of Christ.
This new and well documented NT doctrine will shame every church in the land, exposing them all, including the SDA’s, as having a false and “wretched” Gospel.

All will need to repent and stop pretending they have no Gospel error. Thus the last church will be confronted and divided over the Gospel Sabbath of Christ just like in the 1st century.

Bob 2 said: That is, how to worship and when???

Tom said: The church is to meet every 7th day to worship God and learn of Christ. However, all are also free to work on this day, as Christ teaches over and over in the Gospels. It is not an OC Day of forced rest and guilt but a NC day of Freedom, salvation, and joy.

Bob 2 said: What percent of the Gospel is the NC Sabbath???

Tom said: Without doing a detailed study, I would estimate that 20% of Jesus teaching is about the Sabbath. But even this is misleading because Jesus used the Sabbath, every week, as a demonstration of the Gospel. It was such a hot point of contention; it was the reason Jesus was sent to the cross.

In fact, Jesus could not preach the Gospel without reforming the Sabbath. The two go together. Which is why Jesus claimed such authority over the Sabbath, defending and promoting his unique view that took everyone by surprise.
So it will be again.

The 7th day Gospel Sabbath stunned and infuriated the religious leaders; this will happen again. Starting with the SDA’s, who at least discovered the correct day. That is more than most have done. Now it is time for the Adventists to go all the way to complete Sabbath Reform and proclaim the Gospel more fully and correctly.

Those who refuse to believe what Christ teaches about the NC Sabbath are not true followers. They are only pretending. Only those that are honest about following Christ will be obtain Eternal Life. Do you understand?

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Bob, it seems you are determined to maintain your false views at any cost. What is the point of such a strategy? Why fight against the clear teachings of Christ?

Rom. 11:8 just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”

Bob 2 asked: What is the ultimate goal of a Christian?

Tom replied: Eternal Life, by Faith alone, in the teachings of Christ.

Bob 2 then said: Peace and Rest and that is given by Jesus fulfilling the 4th Commandment.

Tom said: Jesus did not obey the OC Sabbath law of the Jews, much less fulfill it. In fact, he was the greatest Sabbath breaker in the history of Judaism, which is why he was sent to the cross. So your theory is falling apart.

Jesus came to preach the Gospel, which includes his active and reformed, NC Sabbath, which had nothing to do with rest.
Jesus preached a different Sabbath where good works are featured and the 4th commandment regulations against work were ignored by his instruction and authority.

How the church could have missed this Sabbath doctrine all these years is stunning. It proves they are not even reading the Gospels, much less paying close attention to what Jesus teaches.

The SDA’s are the worst offenders. They do not follow the active Sabbath of Christ, nor do they even know such a NC doctrine exists. They teach that Christ supports the OC Sabbath of Moses, which is utter nonsense. He does no such thing and they should be ashamed of themselves for teaching such obvious error and blasphemy.

Bob, how does one “fulfill” a law they are breaking? They don’t. Jesus did not fulfill the OC Sabbath, nor was he supposed to do this, (if such a thing can even be accomplished). He reformed the Sabbath for the church.

Jesus created the NC Gospel Sabbath. It is called the Lord’s Day in the NT. This is the correct, 7th day Sabbath for the church. It is very different from what the OC minded SDA’s teach, or what the Sunday keepers practice.

The NC Sabbath, which Christ promoted from the beginning of his ministry, can only be embraced at the expense of the OC Sabbath. The former must be repudiated, at least in part, so that the latter can be embraced.

The OC Sabbath is replaced by Christ’s NC Sabbath doctrine.
You need to stop quoting Paul’s remarks about the law or the Sabbath until you understand what Jesus, the Lord of the NC Sabbath, teaches about the Gospel Sabbath.

Paul does not give Eternal Life to anyone. Nor is he the Lord of the Sabbath, or the Judge of anyone, Christ is. All must follow Christ if they want Eternal Life.

1Cor. 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

The NC Sabbath, which Paul defends in Col 2: 16, is not being abolished as many foolishly claim. This passage in no way helps those who fight against the NC Sabbath of Christ.

As for Ephesians, this passage does not remove the NC doctrine of the Sabbath as taught by Christ in the Gospels. If you think so, you need to take a "time out" and do some serious Bible study. You need to actually read the Gospels and learn about the theology of Jesus.

Jesus is the foundation of our faith, not Paul. What Christ teaches about the Sabbath, is what all must embrace.

1Cor. 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one, which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

If you want to understand the Gospel Sabbath, you must go directly to Christ in the Gospels, and learn from him. Until you do this, you will never understand the Gospel, or the NC Sabbath correctly.

Bob, your Gospel views are far too convoluted and hostile to be of any value. (In other words, no Eternal Life). It is clear that you reject the words of Christ about his favorite doctrine, which is the reformed and active, NC Sabbath. So be it.
The choice to follow the Gospel is a personal one, and only a few will ever understand and be saved. Sad, but true.

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

All those who refuse to understand Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath have nonetheless been called to Eternal Life. However, they will not be chosen. Why? Because they refuse to hear the Words of Christ and be saved. They are ashamed of Jesus’ theology, which they have chosen to ignore or change. Big mistake.

Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Let all that choose to follow the genuine Christ, - do so without further delay and double-talk.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Bob 2 said: Tom, just wanted you to know I worshiped Saturday at this church:

http://www.gracestl.org/

Scroll down on the right to "Welcome to Grace" and watch the video.

Tom said: Good for you! That was not so painful was it? I assume the Gospel Story and the teachings of Christ were presented, and that the music was uplifting and full of grace.

However, I hope you worshipped in the proper frame of mind?
That is, - I hope you acknowledged (to yourself, and to God) that you were embracing the New Covenant, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. Not just worshipping on Saturday for the sake of convenience.

Moreover, I hope you went home and did some things that would be sinful if you were a Jew or an OC SDA. Like going out to a restaurant or store, or doing some chores at home and then watching a ball game. Such activities are not sinful and are reflected in this new Gospel doctrine that allows freedom from the law of the 4th commandment.

Make no mistake about it: the reformed NC Sabbath of Christ is very different from the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath, which is based on the OC, not on the NC teachings of Christ.

While I could not find the Sabbath doctrine on their website, no doubt this church thinks Sunday is the NC Lord’s day, or perhaps they have also fallen for the Every Day Sabbath nonsense. Many have. But you should be far more informed and advanced. I hope you are beginning to better understand the Gospel Sabbath.

Sunday is not the NC Sabbath or the Lord’s Day, nor will it ever be such. Only the 7th day can be the NC Lord’s Day. The Every Day Lord’s Day is also a myth, even worse than Sunday. We should know better today. Especially SDA's.

So Bob, tell us how you felt?

The combination of worshiping God on the 7th day and also working (or playing) on the 7th day is a new and “amazing” doctrine for the church. It will be very confusing to an SDA, even feeling wrong and sinful. But the opposite is true. Those who try to keep the Sabbath holy, like the SDA's, by not working are sinning; because this is not what Jesus teaches whatsoever. Proving they do not embrace the Gospel correctly.

The active Sabbath of Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath, will become a catalyst for the final reformation of the church, separating those who are serious about following Christ from those who are pretending. This is what this doctrine did in the 1st century and it will do so again at the end of time.

Matt. 12:30 “He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.

This “new” doctrine about the 7th day underscores how badly every church and denomination, including the SDA’s, has misunderstood the Gospel teachings of Christ. They all need to repent, even as all must go to Christ in the Gospels and learn directly from him.

Those who embrace the active, 7th day, NC Sabbath of Christ, are following the true shepherd. They will care nothing for tradition or false doctrine. They only hear the words of Christ, carefully following his teachings.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

Those who understand and embrace the active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath, are showing their respect for the authority of Christ over the law, even as they turn their backs on the many false Christ’s and false prophets that have overtaken the Laodicean Church.

Let all seriously consider the Gospel Sabbath of Christ and REPENT.

Mark 1:15 …Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Bob 2 said: A question I have had for some time. Tom you assume the Gospel has to have a Sabbath Day?

Tom said: No need to assume anything. Jesus teaches that there is a 7th day Sabbath “made for mankind,” of which he is its’ Lord and protector.

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
I suggest you read the Gospels and learn about this Gospel Sabbath directly from Christ.

Bob 2 said: Where do you get this, -if the OC ended and the New Covenant mentions, in fact says, that Jesus is our "Sabbath Rest" we can have any time?

Tom said: Jesus teaches the Gospel in the NT for all to see, which includes his reformed, weekly, Sabbath doctrine. However, contrary to your claim, Jesus never said he is our “Sabbath rest.”

While this sounds like something he might have said, the facts prove otherwise. Thus you are being very dishonest to make such a false point. The Gospel is beyond our manipulation. We must embrace it as it is, not as we assume it to be.

In fact, there are only two mentions of the phrase “Sabbath rest,” in the Bible, and none of them come from Jesus. Nor is there any such doctrine as an Every Day Sabbath in the Bible, as you pretend.

Lev. 25:4 but during the seventh year the land shall have a sabbath rest, a sabbath to the LORD; you shall not sow your field nor prune your vineyard.

Heb. 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Jesus never claims or teaches to be our Sabbath rest. Those who place false doctrines in Jesus’ mouth, and false doctrines in his head, are great blasphemers and fools. Eternal life is for those who can understand Jesus’ teachings and embrace them, including what he teaches about his “amazing” NC, 7th day Sabbath.

Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Matt. 7:28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;

The only place in the NT, were this phrase “Sabbath Rest” exits, is in Hebrews. It is used to teach the church that there is a NC, 7th day Sabbath doctrine for the church.

Thus the doctrine of the Sabbath has not been abolished, nor is it even about the physical rest of not working, at least not in the NC, where the Sabbath is REFORMED for the church, but not eliminated.

Bob 2 said; If you are discouraged on Wednesday afternoon at 2:10 pm. That peace is available to you THEN. You don't have to wait seven days for PEACE.

Tom said: What does this have to do with the Sabbath? Our feelings or problems do not change the creation story or the long history of Judaism. Nor do they have any effect on what Jesus teaches in the Gospels.

Doctrine is not based on how we feel on any day, so this line of reasoning is absurd and wrong.

Listen carefully: There is no such phrase or teachings from Jesus about “Sabbath peace or Sabbath rest.” Jesus does not even associate the NC Sabbath with rest, which is a stunning point in and of itself. It is activity and work that he promotes on the 7th day, not rest. This is why he was sent to the cross as a Sabbath breaker.

Bob 2 said: Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath in His flesh. Tom you treat this point tritely and mock it.

Tom replied: Ha! Yes, I do not endorse false or stupid doctrine, and often laugh at it. So, yes; guilty as charged. Sorry.

NCT deserves to be laughed at because it is so absurd and impossible. No wonder the church never embraced such a false doctrine. It has no basis in the NT, nor would it be practical to build up and sustain the church. It is utter nonsense. Sorry again.

Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, not the fulfillment of it. You and others need to stop making things up and repent for your false and confused doctrine.

Bob 2 said: The meeting of the congregation could be Wednesday evening, or Saturday evening.

Tom replied: The church can meet every day of the week, and twice on Sunday, but only the 7th day can be the NC Sabbath of Christ. Period.

OC and NC Israel each have a doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, but they are very different doctrines.

Bob 2 stated: How can Jesus be a "sabbath rest," by his ability to forgive sin. After all what is the Christian striving for, what will bring him peace and rest?

Tom said: Nowhere does the Bible does teach that Jesus is our “Sabbath Rest?” Jesus never said this, which is why there is no such teaching or doctrine. It is pure fiction and myth.

Why make things up? To support false doctrine? Not a good reason my friend. Stick close to the Gospels. Follow Jesus only.

Bob 2 said: There was a discontinuity when the OT concluded, and the NT began. If you don't believe that, you believe Covenant Theology instead of New Covenant Theology. Most Adventists do without knowing or thinking about it.

Tom said: We have discussed this before, and you lost the point. Are you sure you want to go back to this issue?

Moreover, it is not only the SDA’s that embrace false doctrine. Every church and denomination in the world is full of doctrinal error, starting with the Sabbath.

NCT, which is nothing more than crass anti-Sabbatarianism, which is why no denomination has ever embraced it. The church needs a special day to meet in order to survive.

As part of the transition from the OC to the NC, the OC Sabbath was replaced with the NC Sabbath. The fact it later became Sunday is beside the point.

Jesus clearly and repeatedly teaches an active, 7th day Sabbath where all can break the 4th commandment and not be guilty. He never taught a Sunday Lord’s day or an Every Day Sabbath, much less an Abolished Sabbath.

You act as if I am speaking fiction when I am only promoting what has been written in the Gospels over and over. Don’t you read the teachings of Christ?

The fact that so many are stunned and shocked to find such a doctrine as the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath is beside the point. It has been in the Gospels, and in the rest of the NT, from the very beginning of the church. Read it and see.

Let all go to the Gospels and learn the NC Sabbath directly from Christ.

Let all be amazed by the Gospel teachings of Christ and repent. Jesus Gospel, and his Gospel Sabbath, are almost too good to be true, and so too is Eternal Life.

Most SDA’s have no idea about the difference between the Two Covenants, which is why they embrace the error of tithe, and think there are unclean foods today, and think it sinful to work on the 7th day.

The SDA’s are the most confused of all Protestants when it comes to understanding the NC, and it shows. They have confused themselves beyond belief, and you are living proof of this, and so too legions of others that can’t understand the Gospel correctly.

Until the SDA’s, and former SDA’s, confess their errors such as the IJ, tithe, and NCT, etc, they will never understand or be saved.

Bob 2 said: You can not show the army that believes as you do on the Reformed Sabbath and can not show that Jesus taught it while he was on Earth.

Tom said: It is a self-evident fact, in all four Gospels, that Jesus teaches an active and reformed 7th day Sabbath. Read the Gospels and see for yourself. Don’t believe me; believe Christ’s words in the NT!

Bob 2 said: Tom, your concept of the Reformed Sabbath doesn't exist over the centuries, you have not shown where the concept comes from and is routed in Jesus words, or Apostles words or Paul's words.

Tom said: Wow! First off, I have shown that the Gospels contain Jesus’ NC Sabbath, which was much more than a “concept.” You have also been shown the rest of the NT supporting this Gospel doctrine. Closing ones eyes will not change the facts.

However, if you refuse to read Jesus words and believe them, and refuse to read the apostles in the proper context, well, that is your problem. But don’t pretend Jesus Gospel Sabbath doesn’t exist just because it condemns your false view. Such Gospel blindness is what made the Jews so infamous. Why emulate what is so wrong?

Second, the post-apostolic church quickly lost the Gospel and the NC Sabbath. Which is why Sunday became the Gentile version of the Lord’s day and why this day was treated as if it were the OC doctrine of the Sabbath where work was forbidden.

The Reformation restored the Gospel, but not fully or completely, which is why Protestants still embraced a Sunday Lord’s day and why they too, like Rome, taught it sinful to work on the Sabbath. Thus the Puritan Sabbath came to America, spreading more error and confusion about the Gospel.

Truth trumps tradition, and thus the many centuries of error must be corrected. Why? So that the Gospel, and the teachings of Christ, can be more fully and correctly understood, preparing the last church for the 2nd Coming.

Bob 2 said: If you don't see there is a New Covenant and a New Law, you are missing the boat as the SDA majority are.

Tom said: There is a NC; it features the law of Christ, which teachings include the active, reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ, aka the Lord’s day.

Those who follow Christ will only embrace what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. They will not make up new Sabbath doctrines and pretend they are true.

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Bob, there is no way out for you and the SDA’s except to repent. You of this NCT nonsense; and them for their OC Sabbath of the Jews.

Why keep fighting against Christ?

Follow, serve, and respect Christ; don’t fight against his holy words, which include what he teaches about the 7th day Gospel Sabbath.

Mark 8:34 And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.

The SDA’s have much to lose by following Christ. Just like the 1st century Jewish leaders who also faced a choice between the Gospel and their tithe-based system of tradition. Like the Jews, the SDA’s are not going to risk their BILLION-Dollar empire by telling the truth, repenting, and following Christ.

When it comes to money, most people, either Jewish or Gentile, choose money over the Gospel, and it is clear that this is what drives the SDA’s today. Money, money, and more money.

Luke 16:13 “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.”

Luke 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him.

Luke 16:15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.

This explains why the typical SDA Pastor cannot be trusted to tell the truth about doctrine or church history. They are paid deceivers, having made a deal, like the 1st century Jews, to be paid and controlled by a religious hierarchy that repudiates the Gospel. They are not free to search for truth, much less teach it if they found it.

What good are such hired hands?

But Bob, you have made no such bad deal. You are not a pastor, depending on the SDA’s for your living from the error of tithe. Thus you are free to find truth, and so too many others.

Regular people do not make money off religion and thus they should welcome Gospel truth and honest doctrinal reform, even as they turn their backs on their wicked and dishonest religious leaders.

Let all go to the Gospels and learn the NC Sabbath directly from Christ.

Let all be amazed by the Gospel teachings of Christ and repent.

Jesus Gospel, and his Gospel Sabbath, are almost too good to be true.

Luke 8:8 As He said these things, He would call out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath of Christ and New Covenant Adventism

tom_norris · 11-09-13 1:13 pm

Tom said: One cannot “ignore” what Christ teaches about the Sabbath and then run to others for Gospel instruction about the Sabbath. As if Paul or the other apostles are smarter than Christ, or more authoritative. No, no, no. Where did you get this absurd idea?

Tom, I have a great deal of respect for Hank Hanegraaft of the Christian Research Institute , he had a caller that asked him about keeping the commandments and the Sabbath and the worship day. He pretty much stated it as NCT does. Jesus fulfilled the symbol of the Sabbath in His flesh and became the Christians rest. This can be demonstrated in 2 Cor 3:7; Col 2:16-17; Eph 2:14, 15 and Hebrews 8:13.

http://www.equip.org/audio/various-ques … e-sabbath/

You have to read the whole bible for all it is worth and take heed of Jesus words to His Apostles and Paul. You do the Holy Spirit a disservice otherwise. Read as I have quoted before:

John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

and

Acts 26:15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’

“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

If you neglect those passages, you diminish the work of the Holy Spirit as Jesus Christ said right from His own lips. You ignore at your peril, Tom. Note this passage:

Gal 1:11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.

Your continually ignore the importance of the Holy Spirit with the Apostles and with Paul, yet Christ Himself said this would be how the "whole truth" of the Gospel would be relayed, like it or not Tom.

I know it doesn't fit your Reformed Sabbath, but no one but you is talking about that. Show me even Des Ford where he talks of your Reformed Sabbath.

If you retain that OT/OC Law you must recognize and administer it's punishment for not obeying it, also, death by stoning. Are you ready to start the SDAs implementing that????

Last edited by bob_2 (Today 7:45 am)

tom_norris · 11-09-13 1:26 pm

Note this from Hank Hanegraaft site: http://www.equip.org/audio/various-ques … e-sabbath/
Various Questions on the Sabbath
Live/Recorded

Various Questions on the Sabbath
- 09/09/2009 Download

It seems more and more these days as I open the mail, I’m getting letters from some Seventh-day Adventists that say that since I worship on Sunday I’m taking the mark of the beast. They’re Seventh-day Adventist traditionalists and they often major on the aberrant doctrines like soul sleep, sabbatarianism, and the seer status of Ellen G. White.

I recently received a letter from one of these Adventists. They said, “As you (Hank Hanegraaff) know, you have never responded with a coherent thought. It’s apparent that you are either unable or unwilling or both to acknowledge scriptural truth. Over 150 years ago, Ellen White predicted you and your type as elements of Protestantism reaching across the sea to join the Roman power in advocating for the counterfeit sabbath. You are setting the stage for the mark of the beast.”

Those are particularly sharp words and they raise a number of issues. Let me attempt to counter with some semblance of coherent thought.

I would say that the traditionalist wing of the Seventh-say Adventist church has denounced Sunday worship as the end time mark of the beast but not correctly or biblically because there are good reasons why millions of Christians gather on the first day of the week and worship. It’s a result of the resurrection. It was because of the resurrection that we celebrate the rest we have in Christ, who delivers us from sin and the grave (Heb. 4:1-11). For the emerging Christian church, the most dangerous snare was a failure to recognize that Jesus is the substance that fulfills the symbol of the Sabbath.

If we insist on being slavishly bound to the laws of the Old Testament be forewarned, it could be hazardous to your health. You could be put to death because according to the Mosaic law anyone who does work on the Sabbath “must be put to death” (Ex. 35:2). The Sabbath was “a shadow of the things that were to come, the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Col. 2:17).
Just as it would be an abomination and trampling of Christ’s blood under foot (Heb 10:29) to go back to temple priests and sacrifices, it would be wrong to go backwards and worship the shadow rather than the Savior in whom we have our Sabbath rest. Religious rights must bow to redemptive realities.

In respect to the contention that I’ve taken on the mark of the beast because I worship on Sunday. I’ve explained this consistently in my writings and on The Bible Answer Man broadcast that biblically the mark of the beast is parody of the mark of the Lamb. The mark on the foreheads of the 144,000 in Revelation 14 symbolized something. It symbolized identity with the Lamb. So it’s not a stretch to say in Revelation 13, the chapter preceding Revelation 14, the mark of the beast would symbolize identity with the beast. Jesus says that He will write “the name of my God, the name of the city of my God.” (Rev. 3:12). Jesus is not talking about scribbling on your forehead.

The notion that the mark of the beast is Sunday worship simply has no biblical basis. It might be sensationalistic and it might sell well, but the question is: Are we as Christians going to be tethered to the text of Scripture, or are we going to go off on subjective flights of fancy as a result of the latest prophet who hits the scene?

Ellen G White claimed divine authority for her prophecies[1] and she was obviously wrong when she prophesied that she would be alive at the Second Coming of Christ.[2] The prophetic words of Scripture always expose the pretenders. They fail the biblical test given in the Old and New Testaments, and often times—as Peter put it—they end up using boastful words that appeal to the desires of human nature, then entice people, many times people who are just escaping those that live in error, and they promise freedom but they enslave you to depravity. (2 Peter 2:1-22). The bondage of tradition should always give way to the text.

I also recently took a call on The Bible Answer Man broadcast from David in Portland, OR who grew up in the Seventh-day Adventist church. He left the Seventh-day Adventist church but still had questions on the Sabbath, like: Since the Saturday Sabbath was ordained before sin entered the world, how does Christ’s sacrifice on the cross change this?

In response to David’s question I noted the following: In the Old Testament you have a pattern and the emphasis for the symbol of the Sabbath. So going back to Gen 2, you have a Sabbath as a celebration of God’s work in creation by resting on the Sabbath day. This is a hierarchy in creation that is given from separation of light from dark, the water above from the water below, the sun, moon, and stars, the dry land and so forth all the way to man. Then the creator Himself, God, who rests on the Seventh Day, which of course He doesn’t need to rest because He’s tired, but we have a picture that God is giving us as a pattern and that’s the point. After the Exodus, the Sabbath expands to a celebration of God’s deliverance from oppression in Egypt.

When you go to the New Testament you have the ultimate shift in emphasis. It’s not saying you shouldn’t work six days and rest on the seventh as a pattern. It’s saying that pattern culminates in the substance of Jesus Christ who fulfills the symbol. That’s why Hebrew 4:1-11 says that in Christ we have our Sabbath rest.

I think it’s also particularly important to realize we’re not bound to Sabbath laws, and that’s why I mentioned earlier that if you want to keep Sabbatarian laws in the way that they’re given in the Old Testament, why not keep them in total? If you’re going to do that, then you have to put people to death who do any work on the Sabbath. In fact, driving your car would be a lethal penalty.

Even if you make a differentiation between the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath of the Feast Days, you still have to grapple with the notion of pattern and that Jesus is the culmination of that pattern. Also that we celebrate on Sunday because we’re celebrating the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The early Christian church changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. Within weeks, thousands of Jews willingly gave up their theological tradition that had given them their national identity. This is because God gives the early church a new pattern, the operative word being pattern, because Christ rose on the first day of the week and that’s what we’re celebrating. This is the apex of the Christian worldview, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Paul says that if we don’t believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ we have no hope because we are still dead in our sins, and our preaching and faith is useless (1 Cor. 15: 15-19). So Christ appeared to his disciples on the first day, as well as the Holy Spirit descending on Pentecost (Sunday); therefore, the Jews gave up a tradition seeing the culmination in Christ.

The Christian church did not arbitrarily make this decision. This is not a new decision. This was the pattern of the early Church because it was based in the resurrection of Christ in whom we have our Sabbath rest. We rest on Sunday because we’re remembering the resurrection of Christ. In Acts 20:7, I Corinthians 16:2, and Colossians 2:16 we see this pattern.

Also church history tells us that early Christians worshipped on Sunday. Ignatius Bishop of Antioch around the turn of the 1st century said, “If therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day on which also our life has sprung up again by Him, by His death, whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith and therefore endure that we might be found disciples of Christ our only master….”[3] Or Justin Martyr, writing less than a 150 years after the death of Christ, said “On the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read as long at time permits…but Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly because it is the first day on which God having wrought a change in the darkness and matter made the world and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.” [4]

You can worship on Saturday or on Sunday. The point is not the day. The point is what you are remembering and that Jesus fulfills all the types and shadows. Therefore, the pattern changes and we worship collectively in honor and remembrance of the resurrection.

It’s not sin to worship on Saturday. If you want to worship on Sunday, I won’t tell you you’ve taken the mark of the beast. The point is that you recognize that Jesus is the substance that fulfills the shadow and that apex of Christianity is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Through the resurrection, Jesus demonstrates that He doesn’t stand in a line of peers, but that He is the Messiah, the fulfillment of all that came before.

For more information on the Sabbath please check our Website at www.equip.org for articles and also check out my entry on it in The Complete Bible Answer Book.

1. Ellen White, Selected Messages, Book 1, from Ellen White and Her Writings, chapter 2, from section entitled “No Boastful Claims” found on page 34; chapter 2 from section entitled “The Work of A Prophet and More,” from page 36.
2. Ellen White, Early Writings (1882), from “Experience and Views,” from “Duty in View of the Time of Trouble,” from page 58(egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$vid=default); Ellen White, Early Writings (1882), from “Experience and Views,” from “Mark of the Beast,” from page 64 (egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$vid=default) page 67. Please note for this and all references, CRI utilized the search function through the Ellen White Estate that can be accessed through egwdatabase.whitestate.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$vid=default, “Table of Contents,” “Complete Writings of Ellen G. White.” Please note that information quoted that is in brackets, as well as numbers and other notations (not including ellipses), were included in original text.
3. Ignatius Bishop of Antioch, The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, Chapter IX.—Let us live with Christ. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v … #highlight).
4. Justin Martyr, The First Apology of Justin, Chapter LXVII.—Weekly worship of the Christians (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v … #highlight).

Last edited by bob_2 (Today 8:22 am)

bob_2 · 11-09-13 4:44 pm

Note, the last post was a transfer by Tom Norris to a location that he feels is better placement. It is not his post, it is mine. I am surprised that he did not clarify that since it goes against Tom's Reformed Sabbath, of which I can not find other supporters or churches with his Reformed Sabbath as a doctrine firmly held. I challenged Tom to show me where Des Ford is a proponent of it. SILENCE and jockeying my post around to suit himself.

tom_norris · 11-14-13 6:09 pm

Bob asked Tom:

Where did He command the Sabbath to be kept??

Tom said: Your question assumes it was the OC Sabbath that must be commanded and kept. But Jesus did not teach OC Sabbath keeping. In fact, he promoted a very different NC view of the Sabbath. One that did not have to be kept free of work. So you will never find Jesus or the apostles talk about “Sabbath keeping” because such a term only applies to the OC, non-working, Sabbath of Judaism. The Christian Sabbath, aka, the Lord’s Day, is different from the Sabbath doctrine of the Jews.

Let all understand that Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath stunned and amazed the Jews. And it will do the same thing today in Laodicea, where every church and denomination is blind to the genuine Christ and what he really teaches about the Sabbath and most all else.

Mark 1:22 They were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority!

Luke 4:32 and they were amazed at His teaching, for His message was with authority.

Stop looking for something from Jesus that you will never find. Jesus does not teach OC Sabbath keeping, and I never said he did. It was the SDA’s who make this claim, just as they also teach that Jesus paid tithe, which he never did.

Regardless, Jesus clearly teaches a unique, NC doctrine of the Sabbath, which is very different, even the opposite of the OC Sabbath of the Jews, as it divided, confused, and enraged them.

Luke 23:5 But they kept on insisting, saying, “He stirs up the people, teaching all over Judea, starting from Galilee even as far as this place.”

Those radicals, who followed Christ’s Gospel/Sabbath teachings, placed themselves in danger of ridicule, imprisonment, and death.

Jesus Sabbath teaching is part of the Gospel, and until what he is saying is better understood, one does not fully understand the Gospel. All must go to Christ in the Gospels and learn the NC Sabbath from him.

If Jesus teaches the Sabbath should become an Every Day state of spiritual rest. So be it.

If he teaches that Sunday is the NC Sabbath; so be it again.

If he teaches there is no Sabbath, so be it.

The point is, we don’t get to choose what Sabbath doctrine we like. Only Christ can make such doctrine for the church.

This begs the question: What does Jesus teach about the Sabbath?

Whatever that is, we must understand it correctly and “believe in his words.”

John 8:29 “And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.”

John 8:30 As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him.

John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

John 7:16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.

John 7:17 “If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

Let all go to Christ in the Gospels and learn about the Gospel Sabbath. This is the source for all NC doctrine, including the Sabbath, which is prominently featured in all four Gospels.

John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

Those who are truly following Christ, will be where he is when it comes to the doctrine of the Sabbath and all else. Jesus teaching about the Sabbath must be the same view of those who claim to follow him.

Moreover, such teachings are his commandments. The Sabbath is but one of many points covered by the teachings of Christ. None of what he teaches is optional, or subject to revision or elimination. Thus when the NT says that we are to keep the commandments of Jesus, that means all that he teaches. Including the Sabbath.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

John 15:10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Jesus radical view of the Sabbath is part of his “commandments.” In fact, it was a very important part of his Gospel theology. Too bad the SDA’s could not figure out how to define the NC Sabbath. But error, once exposed, seeks correction, and now the Adventist Community has been driven to find the completion of Sabbath Reform, a paradigm changing point for the Advent Movement.

The SDA’s were not wrong to push Sabbath Reform, even though they ended up embracing the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath.

But now, thanks to Dr. Ford, the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath has emerged for all to see, and so too a new and improved doctrine of the Pre- Advent Judgment in /Revelation.

Rejoice and be glad. It is time for the resurrection of the Advent Movement. This is something that Ellen White predicted, even as she saw a time when the Laodicean Message would become a game changer for SDA’s.

The Lord calls for a renewal of the straight testimony borne in years past. He calls for a renewal of spiritual life. The spiritual energies of His people have long been torpid, but there is to be a resurrection from apparent death. By prayer and confession of sin we must clear the King's highway.--8T 297 (1904).

I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people.--1T 181 (1857).

It is time for the Advent Movement to move forward to the next level – the 4th Angels Message. This final Gospel message will feature the correct doctrine of the Sabbath, as well as the Judgment, and church organization, etc.

There is no room for the Every Day Sabbath in the 4th Angels Message. Why? Because there is no such a doctrine taught by Christ. So NCT is not the proper solution to combat the incorrect Sabbath doctrine of the Sunday keepers or the SDA’s.

Rather, the only solution to false doctrine is true doctrine. The Gospels are clear as to what doctrine Jesus teaches. He teaches a Gentile friendly, active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. This is the correct view for the church.

The SDA’s were correct to learn about the Sabbath from the SDB’s. They were correct to point out the error of Sunday, and to teach that only the 7th day can be the NC Lord’s day for the church.

They are also correct to understand that the final Gospel Reformation, in Rev 18, would contain the correct doctrine of the Sabbath and would in fact divide the church. Of course this has not happened as yet. But it must.

When the Gospel is fully understood, so too all Gospel doctrine, including and especially the Sabbath.

Let all who claim to follow the genuine Christ, do so.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 11-15-13 1:41 am

Tom, you miss the point Gal 4:4 makes, in fact let me quote the surrounding verses:

Galatians 4:4 What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2 The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world. 4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

Tom, He was obligated to keep the law/covenant he was born under. Until His death and perfect life under the OC/OT there was no tangible forgiveness of sin, His blood. You have constructed your own Gospel. But it is false. As the New Covenant was begun, He fulfilled the Sabbath rest in His flesh. Tom, your version of the Gospel falls apart in the following passage:

Eph 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Last edited by bob_2 (11-15-13 1:42 am)

bob_2 · 11-15-13 1:46 am

Those under the law were Jews and the adopted sons are us, non-Jews or Gentiles. We are under Christ's Law not the Mosaic Law Jesus was born under. If you don't agree, these verses are impossible for you to explain to anyone, it is chaotic, your hermeneutic is wrong. Show me where even Des Ford understood it your way.

tom_norris · 11-15-13 7:42 pm

Bob, the harder you try to attack the NC Sabbath, the worse it goes for you.

Bob 2 said: We are under Christ's Law not the Mosaic Law Jesus was born under.

Tom said: Correct. The sayings, teachings, and instruction of Christ is the “Law of Christ.” The reformed Sabbath of Christ is part of the “Law of Christ.”

So this point supports the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath. Thank you for that.

The Gospels make it clear that Jesus’ new view of the Sabbath caused great division among the Jews. For example, after a typical debate about Jesus working/healing on the Sabbath, the crowd openly discussed if they should believe him or not.

John 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.

John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”

John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”

The Gospel of Christ includes the Sabbath of Christ, which is part of the “law of Christ.” Thus, those who embraced Christ, also believed his “sayings” about the NC Sabbath.

Listen to Jesus:

John 12:47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Those Jews that rejected Christ’s NC Sabbath, were disowned by Christ. They were not his sheep, by their own choice. However, his true sheep will believe and embrace his active 7th day Sabbath.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Eternal Life is for those who follow the true Shepherd. He is the one with the new and unexpected, active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath doctrine. Misunderstand this theological fact, and all will be lost.

It is a great mistake for any Christian to repudiate Christ, and teach false doctrine in his name.

Those who are embarrassed of Christ’s active, 7th day Sabbath doctrine, will be shamed and condemned by Christ on the Judgment Day. Is this really the desired outcome of your life? Are you willing to lose everything because of your obsession with false doctrine? So be it.

Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Bob, you need to stop fighting against Christ and his NC doctrine of the Sabbath. This is the only way you will ever have peace or Eternal Life. Repent, and believe the Gospel. This is your best option.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 11-16-13 3:25 am

For sake of argument, Tom, had Christ come while the Jews were still in the Wilderness, do you feel his views would have been against the Law of Moses, or the true intent of what should have been done on the Sabbath. You seem to suggest that what Christ said about the Sabbath would have warranted punishment, even death for healing on the Sabbath in the wilderness. Christ was only criticizing the man made laws of the Pharisees not the intent of the Mosaic Law. There is nothing for us to follow in keeping a Sabbath that Jesus is giving. He is our peace. You fight that reality stated by inspired writers, inspired by the Holy Spirit. Eph 2:11-18. Christ no where gives teaching that the Sabbath would be part of His Kingdom. Why would you need the shadow when you have the reality amongst you and the fulfillment of it. Stay quiet on the subject unless you can show me where Des Ford teaches this the same way you do.

Last edited by bob_2 (11-16-13 3:37 am)

tom_norris · 11-16-13 2:05 pm

Bob; you don’t have to agree with Christ about the Sabbath or anything else. There are many religious figures to follow, and you are free to do so. Or to make up your own version of religion, or even have no religion.

But what no one is free to do is teach false doctrine in the name of Christ. Christ teaches what he does in the Gospels, and for those that follow him, this teaching is what they must, and will embrace. Period.

Legions that claim to follow Christ, like yourself, are doing no such thing. In fact, most so-called Christians today have no idea what Jesus teaches, nor do they want to search for truth and make sure they are on the correct path. The fact that every denomination is full of double-talk and error about the Sabbath proves this point.

How can those who claim to follow Christ, not know what he teaches about the Sabbath? Very strange situation.

Bob 2 asked: For sake of argument, Tom, had Christ come while the Jews were still in the Wilderness, do you feel his views would have been against the Law of Moses, or the true intent of what should have been done on the Sabbath.

Tom replied: First off, your question is full of assumed error and misdirection. What is the “true intent” of the NC Sabbath?

While you and many others, like the SDA’s, claim the Sabbath is about rest and peace, this is wrong. Jesus teaches no such view of the Sabbath. Which makes your view wrong.

Jesus only teaches an active, working view of the 7th day Sabbath. Those who follow him had better figure this out; otherwise, they will never know that they are following a delusion until it is too late.

Second, the law and the Gospel do not mix. Which is why Jesus was not sent to preach the Gospel at Mt Sinai. Had he done so, there would have been no one around that could have understood it, as the Jews did not even understand the law, which is a prerequisite for understanding the Gospel.

Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”

The fact of the matter is that the Gospel is very difficult to understand. The Law prepares the way for the Gospel, even being called a “schoolmaster” or Tutor for those who would graduate and grow up to understand the Gospel.

Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Look around. Even today, the Gospel is very difficult to understand. Those that understand it the best, like Dr. Ford, also understand and embrace the 7th day Sabbath of Christ. This is how you can tell the true Christ from the many false ones.

Bob 2 said: You seem to suggest that what Christ said about the Sabbath would have warranted punishment, even death for healing on the Sabbath in the wilderness.

Tom replied: Yes. What Jesus did on the Sabbath, and what he taught about the Sabbath, would have been a crime, punishable by death. This is why the Jews plotted to send him to the cross, very early on in his public ministry. Jesus was the greatest Sabbath Breaker in the history of Judaism.

Mark 3:4 And He said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to kill?” But they kept silent.

Mark 3:5 After looking around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, Jesus said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored.

Mark 3:6 The Pharisees went out and immediately began conspiring with the Herodians against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

The OC is the servant to the NC. The latter is superior to the former. When the NC arrives, the OC must fade away...

2Cor. 3:6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2Cor. 3:7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

2Cor. 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

2Cor. 3:9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

2Cor. 3:10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.

Bob stated: Christ was only criticizing the man made laws of the Pharisees not the intent of the Mosaic Law.

Tom replied: If God told Moses to stone a man for gathering sticks to light a fire on the Sabbath, why do you think it would be legal for this same man to go around and perform healings, and to go out in the fields and harvest food, and to travel and be so very active?

The NC Sabbath of Christ is very different from the OC Sabbath of Moses and the 10 C’s. In fact, it is so different, that the Jews were stunned and enraged. And they were not just upset about all this activity on the 7th day, but also this new reconfiguration of the Priesthood, whereby all are considered Priests of God, and thus exempt from the 4th Commandment.

There was a lot for the OC Jews to be upset about. And so too the Christians today. When the NC Gospel is correctly preached, there will be great anger and division in the church because it will become plain that what has been taught about most everything is false and wrong. The Sabbath being the most obvious marker to prove this surprising point.

The Gospel Sabbath of Christ is a remarkable and foundational doctrine. Do not underestimate its power to awaken the church and help prepare it for what is to come.

Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

Bob 2 said: There is nothing for us to follow in keeping a Sabbath that Jesus is giving.

Tom said: Wrong. The NC Sabbath is the day for the church to meet for Gospel fellowship, praise, and teaching. Jesus shows this by his example over and over. After such a service, all are free to be as active as they want. They can paint the house, plow a field, go to work, etc. They are free from the power and guilt of the law through the name of Jesus, the Lord of the Gospel Sabbath.

No more preparation day. No more thinking it sinful to work or play on the 7th day Sabbath of Christ. No more rules against lighting fires, cooking, eating out in a restaurant, etc. All activity is now allowed in on the NC 7th day Sabbath, so says Christ.

No more male priesthood, as all are now priests of God. Those who cannot work or play on the Sabbath without guilt, do not understand the Gospel correctly. They are still living in the OC. They are OC, tithe paying, Sabbath keeping Judaizers, that also think Jewish food laws are still binding.

The SDA’s are obvious Judaizers, for which they must repent or be forever locked out of the Kingdom of God. They have the wrong, OC, doctrine of the Sabbath. They need to repent and embrace the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.

Bob 2 said: He is our peace.

Tom said: Great. Fine. Wonderful. However, this does not mean Christ did not teach an active and reformed view of the 7th day Sabbath for the church, over and over in the Gospels.

John 16:33 “These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”

Peace does not come from the Sabbath. It comes from Christ, who is defined as the one who came to earth with the Gospel and the NC Sabbath. Jesus never teaches that he is our Sabbath rest or peace. Such myth and fiction can have no place in the genuine Gospel Story.

Those who are “in Christ” had better make sure they have the genuine Christ of the Gospels. This would be the Christ with the active and reformed 7th day Sabbath.

2Cor. 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you — unless indeed you fail the test?

2Cor. 13:6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.

Bob 2 said: You fight that reality stated by inspired writers, inspired by the Holy Spirit. Eph 2:11-18.

Tom replied: You do not understand Paul. Which is no surprise, because you also don’t understand Christ or the Gospels. How can you argue against what you don’t know? If you want to follow Christ, you must go to him in the Gospels and let him instruct you. Read the Gospels and learn the Gospel from Christ, which includes his active and reformed 7th day Sabbath.

Bob 2 said: Christ nowhere gives teaching that the Sabbath would be part of His Kingdom.

Tom said: Ha! It is clear that you have not read the Gospel teachings of Christ. If you had, you would know that Jesus started teaching his NC Sabbath from the very start of his ministry. You would have also read his many Sabbath debates where he defended and promoted his very different view of the Sabbath.

Furthermore, Jesus’ NC view of the Sabbath is directly connected to the “Priesthood of all Believers.” Thus making the Gospel Sabbath a fundamental doctrine of the Protestant Faith.

Bob 2 said: Why would you need the shadow when you have the reality amongst you and the fulfillment of it?

Tom said: Unless you embrace the genuine Christ of the Gospels, the one with the active and reformed Sabbath, you have embraced a fraud and a worthless shadow. Moreover, Jesus is not to be compared to a day of the week. He is the creator of the world, and of the original 7th day Sabbath.

Bob 2 said: Stay quiet on the subject unless you can show me where Des Ford teaches this the same way you do.

Tom replied: Ha! Since when do those who understand the Gospel take directions from its’ enemies? The Gospel will not be silenced by anyone. Eschatology waits for no man or denomination. The final events are heading this way. Let all take cover in the Gospel of Christ.

Mark 13:19 “For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.

Mark 13:20 “Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Tom Norris for the NC Sabbath of Christ

bob_2 · 11-16-13 4:47 pm

Tom, I have spoken with at least one individual that refuses to have discourse with you due to your intimidating style you have demonstrated here. Now I have backed my positions up with scripture, you have not, though I have asked numerous times. You have not given any references of others that believe as you do. I have supplied many. I think I know who is making up things here and it isn't me. Christ never taught the Sabbath but claimed to have authority over it. He never claimed it would be in the New Covenant, though He was living in the Old Covenant time. You may differ with these scripture based positions. But I think you and I have come to a draw. I will no longer discourse with you either, since a clear thus sayeth the Lord does not satisfy your isolated position of a Reformed Sabbath in the New Covenant when what is taught clearly is that Jesus became our REST being able to forgive our sins. That's all I got Tom until you supply texts, scholars and other things that clearly refute what I have presented, but you ignore the clear scripture of God, and the influence of the Holy Spirit in the Apostles lives. I will now "shake my clothes" and walk away to discuss NCT and it's scriptural message. Best of luck Tom.

Last edited by bob_2 (11-16-13 10:00 pm)

tom_norris · 11-17-13 1:03 pm

Bob 2 said: Tom, I have spoken with at least one individual that refuses to have discourse with you due to your intimidating style you have demonstrated here.

Tom replied: Ha! This is comical. Only one? Why would anyone think we are having a discussion about “style”? No. We are having a very blunt and honest discussion about the Gospel and church history.

Those who can’t honestly deal with the facts, like Clifford Goldstein, are easily frightened away. So be it. These types are fearful for good reason. They don’t like to be exposed as religious frauds. Let them all stay away unless they are ready to repent and honestly learn the Gospel.

Bob 2 said: Now I have backed my positions up with scripture, you have not, though I have asked numerous times.

Tom said: You have abused and misrepresented the scriptures at every opportunity. You have also ignored, marginalized, and refuted what Jesus teaches about the reformed, NC Sabbath in all four Gospels.

So I don’t know why you are bragging. You should be repenting of your awful hermeneutics and asking for help to understand the Word correctly. Sad.

Bob 2 said: You have not given any references of others that believe as you do. I have supplied many. I think I know who is making up things here and it isn't me.

Tom said: The writers of the Gospels “believe as I do.” And so too the rest of the NT writers. In fact, Jesus “believes as I do,” or rather, I believe what he teaches. I will stand by my sources, claiming that they are far superior to Zaspel and Wells, and the others you quote. You can depend on them if you want, but I stand with Christ and the Apostles.

Bob 2 said: Christ never taught the Sabbath but claimed to have authority over it.

Tom said: Bob, you are a great liar and a fool. How can anyone claim they have read the Gospels and at the same time claim that Jesus “never taught the Sabbath” doctrine? This is madness. It is self-evident that you do not follow or believe the teachings of Christ in the Gospels. I am not sure you have even read the Gospels, because they seem so unfamiliar to you.

The Gospels are full of Jesus’ NC Sabbath teaching. To deny this fact, is to deny the Gospel and sin against the Holy Spirit, despising the Word. Are you sure this is the correct path to Eternal Life? Really?

Bob 2 said: He never claimed it would be in the New Covenant, thou He was living in the Old Covenant time.

Tom said: Jesus Sabbath teachings are NC in nature, doctrine, and theology. If you deny this, you also deny Christ.

Bob 2 said: You may differ with these scripture based positions. But I think you and I have come to a draw.

Tom said: Ha! This is hysterical. First off, you don’t have any credible “scripture based” positions. Your hermeneutics are a joke, and your theology is a train wreck. You don’t know what you are saying, or why.

Secondly, you are delusional to think you have somehow fought to a draw in this discussion. You have been in checkmate since the beginning, many years ago. You have scored no points nor gained any credibility for this absurd Every Day Sabbath, which does not exist.

Moreover, your many attempts to attack Adventist Reform have all fallen flat, and will continue to do so.

Let’s be blunt, you have lost this discussion by a mile. But you go ahead and think whatever you want. This is the way of the blind. They think they can see, when they are in the dark.

Bob 2 said: I will no longer discourse with you either, since a clear thus sayeth the Lord does not satisfy your isolated position of a Reformed Sabbath in the New Covenant when what is taught clearly is that Jesus became our REST being able to forgive our sins.

Tom said: Ha! You don’t know the scriptures well enough to have a profitable discussion about theology. This is your problem.

The SDA’s have filled your head with so much myth and error that you have no idea what Jesus or the NT really teaches. Then you left them, only to follow some other confused blowhards.

Eternal Life is not for those too busy, stupid, or rebellious to find the Gospel. It is for those who seek it out. You are a very lost sheep, even though you think otherwise. You need help or you are doomed.

Bob 2 surrendered and said: That's all I got Tom until you supply texts, scholars and other things that clearly refute what I have presented, but you ignore the clear scripture of God, and the influence of the Holy Spirit in the Apostles lives. I will now "shake my clothes" and walk away to discuss NCT and it's scriptural message. Best of luck Tom.

Tom replied: You have not “presented” anything worthwhile or true. Nor do you have enough evidence to convince anyone of anything. You lose by a mile! The NC Sabbath of Christ stands like a rock in all four Gospels. Only a blind person could miss this unique doctrine that sent Jesus to the Cross.

Moreover, your obsessive attempt to defend this new Sabbath doctrine of the NCT crowd has failed. The Every Day Sabbath is false doctrine, promoted by those with a false Gospel and worthless view of eschatology.

As for your pathetic attempt to pretend that you follow the teachings of Christ, about “shaking” off the dust of a town where people will not believe the Gospel, this makes no sense for a number of reasons.

First, you refuse to follow Jesus, and thus you do not represent him. You hate what he teaches about the Sabbath, and thus you do not speak for him and you have no Gospel testimony for anyone, much less for Tom Norris. You are a phony disciple. You do not understand nor believe what Christ teaches.

Bob, you fail to realize that the Disciples of Christ preached and taught the active and reformed Sabbath of Christ. Those who rejected Jesus’ Gospel teaching about the Priesthood or the NC Sabbath, etc, were instructed by Christ to “shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them.”

So this passage supports the NC Sabbath of Christ.

Mark 6:7 And He summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits;

Mark 6:8 and He instructed them that they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff — no bread, no 1bag, no money in their belt —

Mark 6:9 but to wear sandals; and He added, “Do not put on two tunics.”

Mark 6:10 And He said to them, “Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave town.

Mark 6:11 “Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them.”

Mark 6:12 They went out and preached that men should repent.

Bob, you deny that Jesus teaches a NC doctrine of the Sabbath in the Gospels. But yet, you now (mis)quote what he says about shaking the dust off the feet of those who brought the Gospel when it was not believed. (He did not say "dust of clothes" as you carelessely claim).

Why did you do this? YOU don’t believe the Gospel of Christ. YOU don’t believe in the NC Sabbath “sayings” of Christ. YOU are not a disciple of Christ, nor do you preach the genuine Gospel to anyone.

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

YOU are an enemy of the Gospel, a very confused and rebellious sheep.

If Jesus Sabbath teachings do not apply to the church, why does anything he teaches about dust on our shoes apply?

Or could it be that you will accept whatever sayings you like from Jesus, but when he teaches something you don’t like, you pretend it is for the Jews? Is this the game you are playing?

Your own words, and your dishonest use of scripture, expose you as a fraud and hypocrite. You would rather embrace what Jesus teaches about “dust” before you would ever accept what he teaches about his reformed 7th day Sabbath doctrine. No doubt you prefer to follow the "Lord of the Dust" instead of that awful "Lord of the Sabbath"? Strange and sad.

Matt. 12:37 “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Your only hope is to repent of your nonsense and embrace the genuine Gospel, which features the NC Sabbath of Christ.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

l_miller · 11-17-13 8:31 pm

Post from #448 1:03 today...

Bob 2 said: Tom, I have spoken with at least one individual that refuses to have discourse with you due to your intimidating style you have demonstrated here.
-----------------------------------------

So can someone tell me , if you don't believe in the Sabbath for today.... are we now suppose to commit murder, dishonor our parents, commit adultery ... and should I go on?

On the other hand..... almost every SDAer I know believe in the OT sabbath and that they are the only ones going to heaven. AND it is to their salvation that they believe it... Yet their are many more that believe in the true sabbath that do not attend an SDA church

Lori from Lebanon, Pennsylvania

Last edited by l_miller (11-17-13 8:58 pm)

l_miller · 11-17-13 9:28 pm

I think that having an understanding of the weekly Sabbath rest helps us to understand the resting in His grace for salvation. sweet

Lori from Lebanon, Pennsylvania

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