The Fraud of Church Tithing

tom_norris · 12-22-12 6:07 pm

Bob 2 said: Tom, I thought we were talking about salvation. Neither tithe nor a Sabbath is part of the New Covenant.

Tom said: While tithe is NOT part of any NC teaching or practice, this is not true for the Sabbath, aka, the Lord’s Day. The early church embraced the 7th day, NC Sabbath of Christ, which is taught in all four Gospels. So you are 50% correct.

Bob2 said: You spend more time on these two things than on Salvation. I guess I'm not referencing your points, because neither is important to salvation.

Tom said: I spend as much time as necessary, dealing with the issues that need to be corrected. Tithe prevents one from understanding the Gospel, and so too the OC Sabbath. So these false doctrines must be addressed in order to understand the Gospel.

Moreover, Jesus teaching about the NC Sabbath is very important to salvation. Misunderstand this NC doctrine, which all have done, and the Gospel will not make sense or be correct.

Once the NC Sabbath of Christ is comprehended, so too the genuine Gospel. So keep trying…because your eternal life depends on a clear understanding of the Gospel.

No SDA has a clear view of the Gospel so long as they teach the OC Sabbath or tithing. Anyone that thinks it wrong to work on the Sabbath, (either Sunday or Saturday), has a false view of the Gospel. So too anyone that thinks the Sabbath is an everyday doctrine.

Anyone that pays tithe, are also lost in myth, error, and confusion. So these points must be addressed.

Bob2 said: If someone wants to pledge 10% to the church on a regular basis, one pledges of their time, one in seven days, it is not salvific, so it is irrelevant. If you say the Tithe is not taught by Jesus in the NT just like you taught Jesus reformed the Sabbath, note this text: Matt 23:23.

Tom said: Any Christian that tries to practice any form of OC tithing, has “fallen from Grace.” It is the same as when the Judaizers tried to enforce ritual circumcision in the church. There can be no tithing in the church either. Those who think otherwise, are not even close to understanding the Gospel correctly.

As for the Sabbath; Jesus teaches a working, active, 7th day Sabbath, which infuriated the Jews. He does not teach tithing or OC Sabbath keeping.

Once you admit this obvious, self-evident fact from the Gospels, you will be able to understand.

Bob2 said: If you wish to say Jesus reformed the Sabbath by words in scripture about the Sabbath (He never commanded it), then you have to teach the tithe because he told the Pharisees to tithe in this text. Show me where it was done away with??

Tom said: It is clear, in all four Gospels, that Jesus teaches a very controversial and active view of the 7th day Sabbath. This is why he was being persecuted and killed as a lawbreaker.

Those who fail to honestly read the NT, will not understand the Sabbath or the Gospel correctly. This is the problem.

Bob2 replied: BTW. Tom, if you shorten your posts, I'll give more responses to your posts.

Tom said: It is better to have more information, facts, and resources, not less. Nor will those that look for truth, complain when they find it.

I am not looking for any arguments from those who refuse to honestly deal with the issues. The facts are not going to change.

We have been at this for more than a decade, and none have been able to refute either the need for, or the substance of, Adventist Reform. Least of all, the Every Day Sabbath crowd that has not been able to defend their own confusion.

Bob2 said: Tom, this verse suggests that the "Sabbath breaking" was only the secondary reason the Jews were angry at Him:

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

Tom said: You misunderstand. Jesus was claiming that God showed him this New Covenant, working Sabbath. But such a relationship with God, and this idea of working on the Sabbath was impossible blasphemy to the Jews.

You quoted John 5:18 out of context; you need to back up and read v 16 and 17. And then back way up and understand that this entire chapter is about the OC vs. NC Sabbath.

In defense of the charges of Sabbath breaking, Jesus claims that God is also working on the Sabbath. Thus making God a Sabbath breaker, as well as Jesus Father.

Here begins one of the most stunning passages of the NT where Jesus claims to be the Son of God. All in the context of a debate between the OC and NC views of the Sabbath:

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

John 5:20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.

John 5:21 “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.

John 5:22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,

John 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Those who want Eternal Life had better understand the Sabbath debate. All had better examine their view of the Sabbath, because if it does not match up to what Jesus teaches, then they are following a false Christ, even as they are honoring a false God.

Those who fail to embrace the active, NC Sabbath of Christ are “not honoring” either the Son or the Father. They will not be granted Eternal Life. They will fail the Judgment.

John 5 is all about the clash between the OC and NC views of the Sabbath. Such a point is self-evident. And so too the fact that the Jews would not accept the NC, with it’s active, lawbreaking Sabbath. Listen to the words of Jesus directed to those who rejected his Gospel Sabbath:

John 5:37 “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.

John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

John 5:41 “I do not receive glory from men;

John 5:42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.

John 5:43 “I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.

John 5:44 “How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?

John 5:45 “Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.

John 5:46 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.

John 5:47 “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Any that read the NT and conclude that Sunday is the Sabbath or that it is a sin to work on the Sabbath, “do not have his Word abiding” in them. They are following myths and a false Christ and God. Eternal life is for those who follow Christ and his NC Sabbath.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Bob2 said: You are non responsive to my point previously that Jesus was just correcting the Sabbath corruption of the Pharisees and their rules.

Tom said: I have often said this is absurd. Jesus does not claim innocence about Sabbath breaking. Rather, he points to God and claims that God works on the Sabbath and that he must follow God. Jesus does not claim what you do for him.

Bob2 said: Show me one place where Jesus broke the O/C Law regarding the Sabbath.

Tom said: Bob, come on; just read John 5. Jesus broke the law early in this passage by healing on the Sabbath and then telling the healed man to walk around the village with his bed.

Here were 2 clear violations of the OC Sabbath law.

John 5:8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.”

John 5:9 Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk. Now it was the Sabbath on that day.

John 5:10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”

John 5:11 But he answered them, “He who made me well was the one who said to me, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk.’”

Jesus refused to obey the OC Sabbath. On purpose. Period. It was not an accident, but part of his plan to promote the NC. He knew what he was doing, but the Jews were clueless. Many today are like the Jews; they are clueless about the Gospel and the NC Sabbath. But yet they study the Bible and think they have truth.

John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.

John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

This famous teaching of Christ is in the context of the Sabbath debate. Misunderstand the Gospel Sabbath, and Eternal Life is lost.

Bob2 said: As far as "the Sabbath is for mankind". They weren't angry at Christ because he stated the Sabbath was for all countries, because if he had they would be angry for this reason, they weren't.

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Tom said: The original language proves that Christ meant the term for mankind. This is not up for debate. It is a fact of history, linguistics, and theology. It is truth.

Furthermore, Christ did speak about foreign countries, and the Jews did not like it. So his enemies would have viewed this term in the same negative way.

Luke 4:24 And He said, “Truly I say to you, no prophet is welcome in his hometown.

Luke 4:25 “But I say to you in truth, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up for three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the land;

Luke 4:26 and yet Elijah was sent to none of them, but only to 1Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow.

Luke 4:27 “And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian.”

Luke 4:28 And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things;

Luke 4:29 and they got up and drove Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff.

Of course, prejudice was so high, that it took the church a number of years to understand that Gentiles were to be granted Eternal Life.

Regardless, Jesus means what he says about the Sabbath. Those who follow him, will not try to spin his words into false doctrines and useless myths.

Jesus teaches that the Sabbath is very important to understand. Too bad that the SDA’s have misunderstood it so badly.

Today, it is time to fully understand the Gospel, which includes the 7th day, NC Sabbath of Christ.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 09-23-13 10:21 am

Question for Sal, at All Experts.Com

Sal-, When God blesses us with something material He requires us to give back a tenth.

“Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries” (Neh. 13:12, see Lev. 27:30-32, Deut. 12:6-7, 11, 17, 2 Chron. 31:5, Neh. 10:37).

The tithe laws are still in effect today for Christians because the New Testament nowhere does away with them.

Tina
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer from Sal:

Dear Sister Tina:

First let me thank you for supplying Scripture in support of your belief. I believe if we look at those texts we will see:

1. They are addressed to Israelites and no one else.
2. They are further addressed to Israelite farmers and herdsmen and no one else.
3. They limit tithes to food and nothing else.

The New Testament does indeed do away with the tithing obligation. In as much as tithing was an Old Covenant doctrine it “vanished away” with the rest of the Old Covenant when the New Covenant came into being.

“In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away” (Hebrews 8:13 ESV).

Further there is not one example in the New Testament of Christians being taught or encouraged to tithe. Also there is not one example of Christians actually tithing. However, there are examples of Christians being extorted to give generous free-will offerings from the heart.

“The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:6-7 ESV).

“Now about the collection for the Lord’s people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made” (1 Corinthians 16:1-2 NIV).

“And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need” (Acts 2:44-45 ESV).

It appears that according to SDAism we are led by the Spirit except in matters of Christian giving then we are led by the Law of Moses!

So that you will know that it is not only nonSDAs that believe the SDA Church to be wrong on the tithing issue I will present a quote from a current SDA. Mr. Tom Norris is well-read, knows the theology of the SDA Church, and is very Bible literate. He wrote,

"All should stay away from the confused, divided, and self-destructing SDA's. They are the most dishonest and manipulative of all those that claim to be Protestant. Until these arrogant Laodiceans can come to the place where they can repent for their many errors, and tell the truth about church history and the Gospel, no one should trust a word they say about anything, including the false doctrine of NT tithing. Let all beware the SDA's!"

Mr. Norris' complete answer can be found @ http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … hing-1.htm. I highly recommend reading it.

Have a Blessed Day,
Brother Sal

bob_2 · 09-24-13 10:00 pm

Tom Norris said:

"All should stay away from the confused, divided, and self-destructing SDA's. They are the most dishonest and manipulative of all those that claim to be Protestant. Until these arrogant Laodiceans can come to the place where they can repent for their many errors, and tell the truth about church history and the Gospel, no one should trust a word they say about anything, including the false doctrine of NT tithing. Let all beware the SDA's!"

Tom, you need anger management classes. What makes you think you could be any part of a solution with this tone and this radical behavior?

A friend of mine was looking at becoming an SDA preacher. He could not survive on the preacher's salary and his wife was disabled and not working. He leveled with the brethern and they said he couldn't be a preacher, but a religion teacher or in some other position was ok.

Last edited by bob_2 (09-24-13 10:01 pm)

tom_norris · 09-25-13 2:58 pm

Bob 2 posted what Tom Norris said about Tithe and the SDA’s:

Tom said:

"All should stay away from the confused, divided, and self-destructing SDA's. They are the most dishonest and manipulative of all those that claim to be Protestant.”

“Until these arrogant Laodiceans can come to the place where they can repent for their many errors, and tell the truth about church history and the Gospel, no one should trust a word they say about anything, including the false doctrine of NT tithing.”

“Let all beware the SDA's!"

Bob 2 said: Tom, you need anger management classes.

Tom replied: Why? For telling the truth?

This statement, which was part of a much larger article about tithe, was not written in anger whatsoever. Why would you think that?

I have seen so much corruption and false doctrine from the SDA’s over the past 50 years that I am immune to getting angry. They are so dishonest and dysfunctional that they are to be pitied. And so too the NCT crowd that you have embraced after you left the SDA’s.

After all, someone has to tell the SDA’s what they have become, and warn people not to be deceived by them, much less give them money to help them continue to promote false, cultic doctrines. They have become like the Pharisees, who were publicly condemned in public, by Christ, for ‘thousands” to hear.

Luke 12:1 Under these circumstances, after so many thousands of people had gathered together that they were stepping on one another, He began saying to His disciples first of all, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

Why do you even protest? You left the SDA’s for NCT, and now you no longer support their doctrines, especially the Sabbath. So why you are defending them? Very strange.

As usual, you fail to understand what is taking place in this discussion about Adventist Reform. I think you should stick to trying to defend NCT, as you have your hands full with that impossible task. You can no more defend tithe than you can NCT. So why say anything? For what purpose?

As far as going to class; you need to go to the Gospels and let Jesus, the Lord of the all, even the Sabbath, instruct you about the Gospel. I have been in his class, and he is an “amazing” teacher. You should join before it’s too late.

John 13:13 “You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am.

Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.

Bob, you have a long way to go before you are “fully trained” to comprehend the Law and the Gospel correctly. Too bad you wasted so much of your life in the Law based cult of the SDA’s. It may be too late for you. They may have ruined your mind. Cults do that.

Bob 2 said: What makes you think you could be any part of a solution with this tone and this radical behavior?

Tom said: The Gospel is very “radical,” controversial, and very divisive. It is not a smooth message of peace, but one of Judgment and doom if Mercy is not accepted. Don’t confuse such fundamental Gospel language from me with personal anger. It is neither personal, nor angry. Rather, it reflects the proper Gospel tone.

Luke 12:49 “I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and 2how I wish it were already kindled!

Luke 12:50 “But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!

Luke 12:51 “Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;

Luke 12:52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.

Luke 12:53 “They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

Furthermore, Adventist Reform is the solution to the confused, dishonest, and self-destructing SDA’s. The Adventists need to hear the truth about Gospel Reform in the most blunt manner possible, - all in the hope they will wake up and repent before it is too late. The same goes for you.

Bob 2 said: A friend of mine was looking at becoming an SDA preacher. He could not survive on the preacher's salary and his wife was disabled and not working. He leveled with the brethern and they said he couldn't be a preacher, but a religion teacher or in some other position was ok.

Tom replied: First off, one does not preach the Gospel for money. The very fact this guy thinks otherwise, proves he does not know the Gospel.

Second, the SDA’s don’t have a valid Gospel to preach anyway, so what was this person going to preach? Only false doctrine, - if the money was right.

Third, the SDA’s pay pretty good. I bet they would pay more money then what your friend could earn working a real job. Which is why there are so many willing to take the salary and benefits.

Fourth, this idea that an SDA “teacher” or other position pays more than a pastor is not true. So his “leveling with the brethren” makes no sense. If anything, Pastors make more than those in education.

Today, anyone so foolish as to want to be an SDA preacher or teacher, are only proving that they don’t know the Gospel. They are just hired hands, paid workers to control and deceive the sheep, all for the benifit of the wolves that have captured the Advent Movement.

So I say again to those deciding to join the SDA church, or to those who are members:

"All should stay away from the confused, divided, and self-destructing SDA's. They are the most dishonest and manipulative of all those that claim to be Protestant.

"Until these arrogant Laodiceans come to the place where they can repent for their many errors, and tell the truth about church history and the Gospel, no one should trust a word they say about anything, including the false doctrine of NT tithing."

"Let all beware the SDA's!"

Matt. 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 09-27-13 1:04 am

Tom said:

I have seen so much corruption and false doctrine from the SDA’s over the past 50 years that I am immune to getting angry. They are so dishonest and dysfunctional that they are to be pitied. And so too the NCT crowd that you have embraced after you left the SDA’s.

Tom, one, I am still an SDA, my name is still on their books. Should I assume you, to be consist with your remarks, are not an SDA any longer. I thought Sal said you were still an SDA and saying this about the church. The NCT is a template that can fit any church that is open to truth and the two separate and distinct covenants. The New Covenant does not have a Gospel + ANYTHING. It is purely about being saved and Christ's Law is the standard of behavior, which has no holy day but leaves open the discussion, to be convinced in your own mind. You are, so why disobey what is a command in the New Covenant not to bicker about debatable matters.

The reason I take up the issue is no sinner that comes to Jesus has to quit his job to be saved. I am not talking about continuing prostitution or being a hit man. But a water treatment plant manger or a policeman or even a grocery store manager, or a gas station attendant, with an every other weekend schedule shouldn't have to turn his life upside down. Life goes on and the world turns. One can have the peace and rest of salvation and forgiveness of sin as the Sabbath was fulfilled by Christ and the granting of forgiveness His death supplies to all who will accept it. Physically man/woman needs rest. No debate. When, is debatable.

Last edited by bob_2 (09-27-13 1:07 am)

tom_norris · 09-28-13 11:57 am

Bob 2 said: Tom, one, I am still an SDA, my name is still on their books. Should I assume you, to be consist with your remarks, are not an SDA any longer.

Tom replied: Perhaps this is why you are defending their false view of tithe? While many SDA’s leave the church, many also fail to leave behind their confused theology and often fall back on what they were taught. Thus error breeds more error.

My name is still on the books, like so many SDA’s that no longer support false church doctrine. I consider myself a New Covenant Adventist.

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=969

Bob 2 asked: I thought Sal said you were still an SDA and saying this about the church.

Tom said: Sal is correct. But I have stated this many times, so you don’t have to listen to others. I can speak for myself.

Bob 2 said: The NCT is a template that can fit any church that is open to truth and the two separate and distinct covenants.

Tom replied: Ha! NCT is a FALSE template for amateurs. It is not about truth whatsoever. It is for those who hate the doctrine of the Sabbath and are too lazy to study the Gospels to find out what Jesus really teaches about his amazing Gospel Sabbath.

NCT is a joke. It is easily defeated and shown to be nothing but myth and hot air. Just like all false doctrine. NCT has been exposed, by Tom Norris, as utter nonsense for all to see. The more people try to defend it, the worse it becomes.

NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953

Bob 2 said: The New Covenant does not have a Gospel + ANYTHING.

Tom said: I don’t know what this means, and neither do you. These are just random words. I suggest that you study more to better define the term “Gospel.” It includes many points, including the active and reformed 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

Those who think otherwise, do not understand the Gospel teachings of Christ. NCT is anti-Christ and anti-Gospel. And so too what the SDA’s teach. The SDA version of the Gospel is very legalistic and very wrong. Too bad you have gone from error to more error. Thus you are heading away from the Gospel and away from Eternal Life.

Bob 2 said: It is purely about being saved and Christ's Law is the standard of behavior, which has no holy day but leaves open the discussion, to be convinced in your own mind.

Tom replied: Eternal life is only given to those who follow the genuine Christ, and what he teaches. Unfortunately, most Christians are following a false Christ and a worthless Gospel. There can be no doubt that the SDA’s and the NCT crowd is following a false Christ and a very distorted and confused Gospel.

As for the “Law of Christ,” what he teaches is what we must follow. However, this includes his NC, 7th day Sabbath, which so angered the Jews. To deny what the Lord of the Sabbath teaches about the NC Sabbath is to deny Christ.

2Tim. 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

Doctrine is not to be left up to the individual. If this were true, why do we have to follow the law of Christ? We can make up our own views and doctrines, which is what many have done. But such views are worthless.

1Tim. 6:3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,

1Tim. 6:4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions,

1Tim. 6:5 and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires

Titus 2:1 But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.

Bob 2 said: You are, so why disobey what is a command in the New Covenant not to bicker about debatable matters.

Tom replied: Ha! So now you want to claim that the NT “commands” all to choose whatever doctrines they want! This would make false doctrine true, even as sinners would be free to make up whatever religion they want.

Wow! As if the church is like a doctrinal potluck, where we can pick and choose whatever teachings we like, ignoring what we don’t. This theory works great for the SDA’s, the NCT crowd, and RC’s, Mormons, and everyone else. No wonder you like such false and evil teaching. It gives you the delusion that your false views are correct.

Where can you find Jesus teaching such a point about doctrine?

Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

2Tim. 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,

2Tim. 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.

Bob 2 said: The reason I take up the issue is no sinner that comes to Jesus has to quit his job to be saved. I am not talking about continuing prostitution or being a hit man.

Tom said: What is the matter with you? I am not promoting the OC Sabbath of the SDA’s where work is wrong on the 7th day. Why would you think such an absurd thing? Are you on medication?

Or is this discussion to complex for you? Why do you go off on such strange tangents? Adventist Reform does not promote a non-working Sabbath, like the legalistic, anti-Gospel, SDA’s. It promotes the opposite.

Bob 2 said: But a water treatment plant manger or a policeman or even a grocery store manager, or a gas station attendant, with an every other weekend schedule shouldn't have to turn his life upside down. Life goes on and the world turns.

Tom replied: Again, why are you making these points? The NC Sabbath of Christ allows all to work on the 7th day. It is the OC Sabbath that prohibits work. Why are you so confused about this discussion?

Bob 2 said: One can have the peace and rest of salvation and forgiveness of sin as the Sabbath was fulfilled by Christ and the granting of forgiveness His death supplies to all who will accept it.

Tom said: Wrong! Stop claiming, “The Sabbath was fulfilled by Christ.” There is no such doctrine in the Bible, no matter how many times you claim otherwise. Jesus teaches no such thing. If you continue to embrace such false doctrine and myth, the Gospel will be of no benefit to you.

Luke 22:37 “For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.”

The Sabbath was never a prophecy that was “written” for Christ to “fulfill.” Only “that which is written” can be fulfilled.

What was fulfilled concerned the Passion of the Suffering Messiah. The Sabbath was never a point for the Messiah to “fulfill.” So stop making such a false and absurd point, which you have been unable to show from the Bible.

As you know, I have asked you numerous times to show this “prophecy” about Jesus “fulfilling” the Sabbath. But you can’t do it because there is no such passage. Nor did Jesus ever teach such a doctrine.

The facts forever doom NCT as myth and error. The entire premise of NCT is based on FICTION. Nowhere in the Bible is there any teaching about 1) Jesus fulfilling of the Sabbath, which is 2) now abolished, for 3) those that meet on Sunday.

NCT is absurd. It is based on sand. It is for fools and wolves, not for those of Gospel Faith.

Bob 2 said: Physically man/woman needs rest. No debate. When, - is debatable.

Tom said: Wrong! Neither Adam nor Eve were tired. They were brand new and perfect. They did not need rest, and neither did God after creating the world. So this is the first point that needs to be corrected.

Moreover, the original Sabbath at Creation was not the same as the OC Sabbath of Moses and the 10C’s, which was a temporary doctrine of the Sabbath, - one that would be updated by Christ in the NC for all to see.

The NC Sabbath is NOT about rest. In fact, it is about working and being active on the 7th day. Which is why the Jews hated it so much.

John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Your SDA brain is stuck on the OC Sabbath, but we are discussing the NC Sabbath, which is very, very different. Until you can make this change in your thinking, you will never understand Adventist Reform or Christ and his NC Gospel.

In conclusion, let all study the Gospels and learn the NC Sabbath directly from the genuine Christ of the Gospels, as well as the correct doctrine about the Judgment and how the end of the world will take place. Every doctrine, including that of church organization, must be supported by the clear teachings of Christ in the Gospels.

Eternal Life only results from believing in Christ. Those who truly believe, - will understand and embrace the same theology as Jesus. If they don’t, then they don’t believe; they are following a false Christ and a worthless, distorted Gospel.

Let all make sure they believe in the genuine Christ of the Gospels. The one with the active and reformed NC Sabbath, aka, the Lord’s Day.

Matt. 24:14 “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris, for New Covenant Adventism

bob_2 · 09-28-13 3:58 pm

Tom said:

Tom replied: Perhaps this is why you are defending their false view of tithe? While many SDA’s leave the church, many also fail to leave behind their confused theology and often fall back on what they were taught. Thus error breeds more error.
My name is still on the books, like so many SDA’s that no longer support false church doctrine. I consider myself a New Covenant Adventist.

The tithe argument is a bogus one. Any church can set what contribution of there income they wish an employee to give to support the church. Jewish institutions expect each employee to contribute to support Israel. It is good when what is expected of them is less than they wish to pay. Some of the SDA medical people in order to get one of their high salaried positions have to agree to double tithe. But with a $500,000 salary, the church and the individual benefit. They started billing the going rate to Medicare and other insurances because other groups, non-profit and for-profits were billing it and getting it. Nothing fraudulent about it. To argue your point is self defeating, other than for you to claim your gospel is purer than the next guy's which you do a lot.

Tom, there are plenty of SDAs that stay members but don't know what they believe, and don't pay tithe as they wish them to, but they can't be excommunicated for not paying tithe, unless you are in a church position. Then they have control. That is true of all businesses that have requirements,and promote based on cooperation.

Last edited by bob_2 (09-28-13 11:43 pm)

tom_norris · 09-29-13 10:07 am

Bob 2 said: The tithe argument is a bogus one.

Tom said: For those who care little for the Gospel, little matters.

Tithe in the OC was not “bogus.” It supported the OC Priesthood, even as it was given to the Jews by God. So it was very special for the Jews for thousands of years

However, it is “bogus” and very false in the NC.

There can be no tithe in the NC any more than there can be Levites in the church. This is not really up for debate.

Of course the SDA’s are pretending that their Pastors are like the Levites, even as they are pretending to be the Temple “storehouse” for tithe. But pretending in religion does make false doctrine true. It only means that something very wicked and rebellious is taking place in the church.

Tithe is against the Gospel of Christ. It is a direct attack on Jesus Priesthood and the Priesthood of all believers. It is an insult to heaven, to put it mildly. Those who do not know this fact had better learn the Gospel quickly, before it is forever too late.

Bob 2 said: Any church can set what contribution of their income they wish an employee to give to support the church.

Tom replied: Wrong. The church must follow what Jesus teaches in all things. They are not free to choose any day and claim it a Sabbath or Lord’s Day, much less to select whatever method they want to fund and organize the church. That is not how Gospel doctrine works, even though many act otherwise.

The very fact that you think the church is free to invent whatever doctrine they want, condemns your view of the Gospel as false and worthless. (No surprise here.)

Bob 2 said: Jewish institutions expect each employee to contribute to support Israel. It is good when what is expected of them is less than they wish to pay.

Tom replied: Whatever the faithless Jews do today, is of no concern for those who follow Christ. The church must follow the teachings of Christ. PERIOD!

I note that even the Jews no longer pay tithe. They have not been able to do so since 70 AD. Those confused Gentiles in the church who try to emulate the OC Jews by practicing tithe, have fallen from grace. They have a worthless Gospel, just like those Pharisees in the apostolic church that promoted Circumcision and law keeping.

Gal. 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

This passage has the same meaning if you replace the word “circumcision” with “tithing.” Thus “Every man who practices tithe is under obligation to keep the OC law.” To which the SDA’s say: Amen. They have no problem trying to keep the OC law as if it were the Gospel. Too bad they can’t come close to keeping it or understanding the Gospel.

Today, the SDA’s are making fools of themselves for teaching such an impossible and outdated doctrine. Their scholars and most pastors know it is false doctrine. But they love money too much to confess their errors and repent. Just like the 1st century Jews.

So they refuse to repent and keep asking for more tithe money.

Luke 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him.

Matt. 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

Bob 2 said: Some of the SDA medical people in order to get one of their high salaried positions have to agree to double tithe.

Tom said: Who cares what the anti-Gospel, greedy, SDA’s do? They are full of false doctrine and much corruption, and tithe is one of their worst doctrines. They are not a good example for anyone.

Bob 2 said: To argue your (tithe) point is self-defeating, other than for you to claim your gospel is purer than the next guy's which you do a lot.

Tom replied: This point about OC tithe being a false doctrine in the church is not my opinion, but the teaching of the NT.

There is only one Gospel, not many with different doctrines for people to choose as they wish.

As for the “purity” of the Gospel. The last church has been judged as being blind to the Gospel and full of false doctrine, unsaved and wretched. THIS is how Jesus views the last church. Don’t shoot the messenger.

Anyone today that practices the doctrine of tithe, has misunderstood the Law and the Gospel. It shows that people are trying to follow the OC instead of faith in the NC teachings of Christ. They will not be saved no matter how sincerely they practice false doctrine.

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Bob 2 said: Tom, there are plenty of SDAs that stay members but don't know what they believe, and don't pay tithe as they wish them to, but they can't be excommunicated for not paying tithe, unless you are in a church position. Then they have control. That is true of all businesses that have requirements, and promote based on cooperation.

Tom said: Yes, the SDA church is full of very confused people who have no idea how to define or understand the Gospel. Moreover, it is controlled by greedy legalists who hate the Gospel.

Thus the SDA’s have become very much like the Sabbath keeping, tithe paying, 1st century Jews - persecuting those who bring them the Gospel and fighting against God at every opportunity. How will they escape hell? They will not escape.

Matt. 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Matt. 23:33 “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

Let all understand that the practice of tithe is a sure sign of Gospel confusion and error. Tithe is not a Gospel doctrine, nor has it ever been part of the NC. Those who insist otherwise will be banished from the Kingdom of God.

I hope this helps those who seek Eternal Life. However, for those who are just pretending, it will be of no avail. They have ears, but they are broken. They cannot hear the Gospel.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism

bob_2 · 09-29-13 3:42 pm

So, Tom, what would you say to the church about tithe if you were in , God forbid, Ted Wilson's position? Also, Tom, you are so definite about a Reformed Sabbath, and not paying tithe, yet no texts specific to either has been supplied. The Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ (see posts on my thread and Col 2:16, 17). You have no position to "yell" so loudly about the SDAs and stay labelled one, even though more honest pastors have left because they disagreed, some less than your ranting self.

Last edited by bob_2 (09-29-13 4:07 pm)

bob_2 · 09-29-13 4:04 pm

Tom, do you believe that SDAs are the only church that holds up tithing as an ideal for it's members?? My accountant told me the average gift per taxpayer to charity, is 3%. How would you fund YOUR church if given the responsibility. Taking shots, that is easy for you, but no solutions are given for tithe. And you still fail to show Jesus vouching for a Reformed Sabbath. I can show Christ fulfilled the Law that contained the Sabbath, but not establishing a day in it's place as the Old Covenant turned obsolete. No where do I hear the Apostles arguing about giving a tithe or not. You have made silence your case???

bob_2 · 09-29-13 4:17 pm

Tom, show us the texts that have told the Apostles not to tithe!! Put up or shut up!!! And show me where the NC names a Reformed Sabbath. Both your claims are bogus. A lot of hot air with no substance. Don't
shoot the messenger, no need to, he has already shot himself in the foot.

tom_norris · 10-02-13 10:36 am

Bob 2 said: So, Tom, what would you say to the church about tithe if you were in, God forbid, Ted Wilson's position?

Tom replied: First off, to be in such a position, one must part of the inside priestly elite class. Ted Jr is only there because his father was there before him. Like a good boy, he has played the required political games that such a hierarchical, anti-Gospel system requires.

He is the high Priest of the OC SDA’s.

The entire SDA system is based on, and funded by, OC tithing, which system and doctrine is totally against the Gospel. No wonder the SDA’s are so full of false doctrine, corruption, and incompetence.

This is what you get with a top down, OC, Roman Catholic type, organizational system. It is designed to rule over people, promoting whatever doctrine those at the top decide is truth, and removing any that protest or seek truth. This is not a Gospel system.

Only those who pay a faithful tithe, and badly misunderstand the NC, could fill such an anti-Gospel position. Thus, I am not qualified any more than Dr. Ford or Christ himself. Those who understand the Gospel are not allowed to be a leader of the OC SDA’s.

Only those who pledge to follow much false doctrine can have this job. Thus Ted is as good of a choice as his father, the man who ruined the church by allowing the sham of Glacier View to become official doctrine for the Denomination.

Second, Ted Jr. needs to lead the SDA church into repentance for Glacier View and for the many false SDA doctrines, including tithe, which the church has embraced.

He should also direct the White Estate to come clean and confess their great fraud about Ellen White and church history. And then to correct the record.

Third, only a small minority of SDA’s pay tithe. So the removal of this false doctrine will not be so bad. There are other ways to support the Gospel. No need to keep practicing what is so false and Old Covenant. There is no excuse for embracing false doctrine. Period.

Bob 2 said: Also, Tom, you are so definite about a Reformed Sabbath, and not paying tithe, yet no texts specific to either has been supplied.

Tom said: Bob, you are fool and a liar. Why do you say such things that you know to be false? No texts? Really? After more than 10 years and hundreds of posts? Really?

I suggest that you read this thread about tithe from the beginning, as well as those about the NC Sabbath. There are many passages discussed in these threads, contrary to your dishonest spin.

Bob 2 said: The Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ (see posts on my thread and Col 2:16, 17).

Tom said: Ha! Again, you are a great liar. This passage does not say that the Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ and neither does any passage, much less any from Christ in the Gospels.

So deny whatever you want, but don’t keep wasting time with such points that have been disproven over and over.

Why not just admit you hate the Gospel as well as the Sabbath? Why even pretend you are a Christian? You have no idea what Christ really teaches, and when those that do try and teach you, you refuse to learn. So be it. Remain blind.

Bob, you have been unable to find any passage where Jesus was supposed to fulfill the Sabbath in the OT. Nor have you found any place in the NT where Jesus claims he is our Sabbath rest. There are no such passages. Thus there can be no such doctrine. Only a blind fool would think otherwise.

Bob 2 said: You have no position to "yell" so loudly about the SDAs and stay labelled one, even though more honest pastors have left because they disagreed, some less than your ranting self.

Tom said: Who are you to instruct those who understand the Gospel and church history? You don’t understand Adventism correctly, much less Adventist Reform. So who cares what you think about anything? Not me. You are lose cannon, obsessed with defending false doctrine.

Bob 2 said: Tom, do you believe that SDAs are the only church that holds up tithing as an ideal for it's members??

Tom replied: While there are many that embrace some form of OC tithe, including the Mormons, who are outside the Gospel, none do so as much as the SDA’s. They are obsessed with this false doctrine, which they have elevated into fundamental NC doctrine.

Their entire church organization is built on this fraud, all of which is used to keep their church Empire under the control of an anti-Gospel, corrupt hierarchy that mimics Rome.

Bob 2 aid: My accountant told me the average gift per taxpayer to charity, is 3%.

Tom said: So what? What is your point? Like I said, only a small minority pay tithe in the SDA church. If only the Adventists could convince everyone to embrace this fraud, they would be wealthy far beyond their present $35 BILLION net worth. But few SDA’s pay tithe in the church as the SDA’s teach.

Bob 2 said: How would you fund YOUR church if given the responsibility.

Tom replied: The correct question is this: How was the apostolic church funded?

My opinion does not count, and neither does yours. The NT has already answered this question. They did not tithe! They shared.

Bob 2 said: Taking shots, that is easy for you, but no solutions are given for tithe.

Tom said: Adventist Reform is full of solutions. This is why it is so easy to point out error.

Tithe in the church is a false and wicked doctrine. Period. Thus it must be replaced with true doctrine. How did the apostolic church fund themselves? However they did it, that is the correct answer for the church today.

Answer: They SHARED. Also, each church was congregational in nature, not hierarchical, like the RC’s and SDA’s. They were not owned and controlled by the apostles.

Bob 2 said: And you still fail to show Jesus vouching for a Reformed Sabbath.

Tom said: I cannot make the blind see. Nor could Jesus heal those who wanted to remain blind. So be it. Stay blind and unsaved. It is your choice.

Bob 2 said: I can show Christ fulfilled the Law that contained the Sabbath, but not establishing a day in it's place as the Old Covenant turned obsolete.

Tom said: Ha! This is comical. You have had every opportunity to find a passage that proves this absurd theory of NCT. But alas, you have failed over and over. So why the games? Why are you so dishonest with the facts?

You can only show that you are an enemy of the Gospel, which you fail to understand or embrace. Sad.

Bob 2 said: No where do I hear the Apostles arguing about giving a tithe or not. You have made silence your case???

Tom said: There was zero debate about tithe in the apostolic church. Why? Because no one ever tried to set up a system of OC tithing in the early church.

However, the church had to be funded, and thus from the very beginning, Peter laid down how this was going to take place. This story can be found in Acts, and thus there is no argument from silence as you claim.

Moreover, the Holy Spirit also made clear how church financing should take place. Some of those who refused to honestly embrace the apostle’s method of church finance, were killed in judgment by God. This made a large impression on the young church and made it clear to all what the financial rules were going to be.

So you are wrong once again. You obviously have not read much of the NT, because you know so little about what it contains.

Bob 2 screamed: Tom, show us the texts that have told the Apostles not to tithe!! Put up or shut up!!!

Tom said: Bob, why are you so dishonest, rude, and wrong? What is the matter with you?

You know that I have supplied scores of texts, which can easily be read on this and other threads.

Are you too lazy to look these up? Or do you just like to go off on unnecessary and stupid rants for the fun of it? You really should see a mental health professional. I think they may be able to help you get a better grasp of things.

Here is some of the passage where Peter established how the church must be financed. Do you see any tithing? Hardly.

Acts 5:1 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,

Acts 5:2 and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?

Acts 5:4 “While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

Acts 5:5 And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.

This story proves there was no tithe. Verse 5.4 shows there was no contemplation of tithing, regardless if the land in question was sold or not.

The church “shared” their resources with each other. They did not tithe, or even come close to designing such a hierarchal, OC system.

There is much more that could be said, and this thread is full of such discussion, including many passages. If you really want to study the issue, then go back and read this thread from the beginning and educate yourself before you start asking silly questions and making foolish statements.

Moreover, why not Goggle: “Is Tithing False?”

If you do, you will find that legions of people have also discovered tithing is a scam. Here is what I found:

Tithing: The Great False Doctrine
http://www.batteredsheep.com/tithing.html

The Lie of Tithing
http://www.apostasynow.com/tgd/tithing.html

Welcome to freedom
http://www.tithing.christian-things.com/

Tithe Quiz
http://tithing.christian-things.com/howmuch.html

Tithing: The Great Christian Deception
http://www.wickedshepherds.com/tithingt … ption.html

Tithing Debate
http://www.tithingdebate.com/

The False Doctrine of Tithe
http://thedivinelyinspiredscriptures.wo … f-tithing/

Is Tithing Biblical?
http://www.truthguard.com/Articles/is-t … l-a22.html

The number of anti-tithing sites goes on and on. It seems that the truth about tithe has gone viral. Ordinary people have discovered tithe to be a great hoax that is not taught in the NT. The SDA’s are the worst offenders. No wonder no one wants to join them. No wonder everyone thinks they are OC. They are!

Bob 2 sarcastically asked: And show me where the NC names a Reformed Sabbath.

Tom said: Wrong thread. You know there are a number of threads where the NC Sabbath of Christ is discussed, including the thread where NCT is exposed as utter nonsense for all to see. These threads are full of explanation and passages that support the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.

Furthermore, I suggest that you try harder to understand this discussion, which at this point, seems way beyond your level of comprehension and ethics. Sad.

Bob 2 charged: Both your claims are bogus. A lot of hot air with no substance. Don't shoot the messenger, no need to, he has already shot himself in the foot.

Tom said: Bob, I think you need serious professional attention. Your mind has been ruined by living too many years under OC Adventism; you do not think clearly or rationally, much less honestly. Your views are delusional and absurd. Your obsession with NCT has not helped the situation; it is only dragging you further away from Gospel reality.

Why don’t you go back to your NCT section and continue to show us what your heroes, Zaspel and Wells, teach about the Every Day Sabbath. You have been delaying this for too long. I can’t wait to see their final conclusion about the Sabbath that is coming up.

Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1180

Are you having second thoughts about posting this up? Are you worried that it is so lame and so easily discredited that you would like to change the subject and start trying to defend OC, SDA tithing?

NCT is awful doctrine. (So too is the SDA doctrine of Tithing.) Why are you defending what is so clearly wrong?

I have discovered that those who try and defend such false doctrine, don’t know what they are talking about. They know very little about what Jesus actually teaches in the Gospels, preferring instead to depend of a small string of Pauline passages that supposedly prove their view of the Sabbath.

This is very dishonest theology, embrace by very superficial and trite people, many with a chip on their shoulder against the SDA’s.

Thus NCT is a revenge doctrine for many former SDA’s. This is not a good basis for any Gospel doctrine, much less a doctrine so foolish and false as this Every Day Sabbath nonsense.

Let all run from false doctrine….

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

cadge · 11-19-13 12:24 pm

Hello friends, I "borrowed" this teaching on tithing from a member of Former Adventist Fellowship. I hope it helps. http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/m … 1384659092

Tithing and the Christian
Rick Barker

I hope that you will finish reading the entire document before reaching conclusions about the teaching I am promoting. I agree with the importance of Christian stewardship and giving, but I do not believe that tithing is a Christian doctrine.

Lets begin with the passage for the sermon, Mal 3:6-12

6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed. 7 From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from my statutes and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you, says the Lord of hosts. But you say, ‘How shall we return?’ 8 Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, ‘How have we robbed you?’ In your tithes and contributions. 9 You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me, the whole nation of you. 10 Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need. 11 I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of your soil, and your vine in the field shall not fail to bear, says the Lord of hosts. 12 Then all nations will call you blessed, for you will be a land of delight, says the Lord of hosts.

Verse 9, which was not mentioned in the sermon, is just as important as verse 10. In fact, the reason that the window to God’s blessing wasn’t open at the time of the writing is that Israel was under a curse for their disobedience. This is an important concept that I will return to shortly. I believe that you were completely right to link the blessings of Mal 3:10-12 with Deut 28. Deut 28 also contains both blessings and curses.

I’ll highlight just a couple of the verses from Deut 28 that establish the context of the curses and blessings. Deut 28:1,15
1 “And if you faithfully obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. ...
15 “But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you.

This is the establishment of the Old Covenant. If the nation does ALL that is commanded through Moses they will be blessed, but if they fail to do ALL that is commanded they will be cursed. Gal 3:10
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by ALL things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

We know the outcome of this; Christ had to become a curse for us. Gal 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”

If one insists on following one part of the Old Covenant, they will need to place themselves under the entire covenant. Gal 5:3
I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

An insistence on maintaining the curses and blessings of the Old Covenant is, in my understanding, a denial of Christ’s sacrifice. He has become the curse for all us, and in Him, we are given all of the blessings. This is why this is such an important topic to me, because it cuts to the very core of what Christ’s sacrifice means. Gal 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Linking tithing to the blessings (and therefore curses) of the Old Covenant appears to me to compromise the Gospel. But perhaps, one would argue that the blessings and curses don’t apply any more, but the teaching of tithing should carry forward.
In that case, I believe that we should look closely at what the Bible actually commands regarding tithing.

Lev 27 teaches that the tithe is specifically from the produce of the land (plant and animal). I frequently hear that we are commanded in Scripture to tithe our “first and our best”. Unlike what is commonly taught in churches, it is not the first of each 10 that is given to God but the tenth one under the rod. Furthermore it is not described as the best, on the contrary, it is the 10th regardless of whether it is best or worst. One result of this is that the poor would have little or no tithe; if there were only 8 lambs there would be no tenth one under the rod. Lev 27:30-33
30 'Thus all the tithe of the land, of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S; it is holy to the LORD. 32 'For every tenth part of herd or flock, whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the LORD. 33 'He is not to be concerned whether it is good or bad, nor shall he exchange it; or if he does exchange it, then both it and its substitute shall become holy. It shall not be redeemed.'"

This same teaching is found in Deut 14. Here there is some debate as to whether this is a second tithe or just another description of the same tithe. If it is another tithe, then the requirement of tithing is now 20% rather than 10%. I lean towards it being another description of the same tithe. Either way, tithe is once again, produce of land (plant or animal). It is also interesting that the giver consumed this alongside the Levites, the poor and the widows. It was an act of community. Deut 14:22-23
22"You shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow, which comes out of the field every year. 23 "You shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God, at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and your flock, so that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.

But this passage continues with information about money and tithe. God did not accept money as tithe. A person could convert their tithe to money, but had to buy food and drink before offering that as tithe. So if I followed the tithing guidelines as presented in Scripture, I should bring some produce from my garden and set it next to the donuts! (When I understood this teaching the comments about the Pharisees tithing their herbs finally made sense). Deut 14:24-27
24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27 And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.

I’ll set aside the argument that tithe was specifically for the descendants of the tribe of Levi and temporarily accept the change to a jot or tittle of the law concluding that pastors are the “new Levites”. However, God is clear regarding why this tithe has been given to the Levites. Leviticus 18 describes that the receipt of the tithe was intrinsically linked to not having an inheritance (of land).
23"Only the Levites shall perform the service of the tent of meeting, and they shall bear their iniquity; it shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations, and among the sons of Israel they shall have no inheritance. 24 "For the tithe of the sons of Israel, which they offer as an offering to the LORD, I have given to the Levites for an inheritance; therefore I have said concerning them, 'They shall have no inheritance among the sons of Israel.'"

Let’s recap what Scripture says about tithe:
• It is part of a system of laws that requires keeping ALL of the laws to receive blessings and avoid curses;
• It is the 10th, not the first--meaning the poorest would be exempted;
• Tithe is always food and drink, never cash;
• Only products of the land were tithed, Scripture never commands a tithe of a monetary increase; and
• Tithe was provided to a group of people who were not given an inheritance of land, they received the tithe instead of the land.

Do the commands of the Old Covenant, referenced in Deut 28 still apply to us today?
Hebrews 7:12, 18-19 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well….
18 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Hebrews 8: 13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

If indeed we have been given new commands regarding giving within the New Covenant, shouldn’t we focus on these commands instead of the ones that are changed, set aside, weak, useless and obsolete? Here is a summary of the New Testament commands on giving (From http://www.cultwatch.com/tithing.html):
• Why should a Christian give? Believers should give because they have richly received (Matthew 10:8). Also, they are to give on the ground of having first given themselves and all they possess to God (2 Corinthians 8:5).
• Who should give? Under grace, every believer is privileged to be a giver, and is encouraged to use that privilege for his own blessing and the blessing of others (1 Corinthians 16:2; 2 Corinthians 9:7).
• How much to give? No specified amount or proportion is ever required by those who live by grace. God asks only that the believer recognize his abundant blessing and give as God has prospered. (1 Corinthians 16:2). Whatever the amount, it is to be "purposed in the heart" (2 Corinthians 9:7 AV).
• How to give? Motive in giving is all-important under grace. Believers should give with a willing mind (2 Corinthians 8:12), cheerfully (2 Corinthians 9:7), generously (2 Corinthians 9:6), and freely (Matthew 10:8).
• When to give? Though giving is not always done on a Sunday, believers are encouraged to set aside an amount "in store" each Lord's Day, that they may have a fund from which to distribute (1 Corinthians 16:2).
• To whom do we give? The NT suggests needy saints (Romans 12:13; 2 Corinthians 9:12), the sick and aged (Acts 20:35), elders in the church, which would include the present-day pastor (1 Timothy 5:17), Bible teachers (Galatians 6:6-10), widows (Acts 6:1; 1 Timothy 5:16), poor relatives (1 Timothy 5:8-16), and missionaries (3 John 5-7).

Thus the New Testament teaching about giving is full and complete. There is no reason to borrow any laws from the legal system of the Old Testament. To do so is to "fall from grace" to a lower level of duty and legal obligation.

----
cadge

PS
I find it comforting that EGW finally saw the SDA teachings as Opinions and welcomed challenges.

"If the pillars of our faith will not stand the test of investigation, it is time that we knew it; for it is foolish to become set in our ideas, and think that no one should interfere with our opinions.” EGW, Bible Echo, October 15, 1892.

Last edited by cadge (11-19-13 12:44 pm)

tom_norris · 11-20-13 1:05 pm

Cadge, nice post.

It seems that legions of people are discovering that tithing is false doctrine. This process of discovery will continue to increase.

This is very bad news for the SDA’s because they use tithing more than any other denomination. They pretend it is sacred and holy, etc. Should any pastor refuse to embrace this error, from which they are paid, they would be fired instantly.

So it is only a matter of time before OC Adventism becomes even more discredited than it already is because of the IJ.

As for Ellen White, she refused to fully embrace the SDA tithe doctrine. In fact, she told the leaders that the Spirit was warning her away from this doctrine. But of course this was covered up, and the church went on to teach that Ellen White fully supports the doctrine of tithe when she did not. And she never changed her mind.

No wonder she could write:

"If the pillars of our faith will not stand the test of investigation, it is time that we knew it; for it is foolish to become set in our ideas, and think that no one should interfere with our opinions.” EGW, Bible Echo, October 15, 1892.

It is stunning to me that the SDA’s have become so dishonest, corrupt, and incompetent in the 21st century. Don’t they understand that it is impossible to censor their members any longer, much less try to change the facts of history? Don’t they realize that they have become a laughing stock?

Of course they are laughing all the way to the bank as they bring in over $2 BILLION per year with the false doctrine of tithe. Such a fortune is worth more to them than Gospel Truth. Thus the love of money trumps the Gospel, and the teachings of Christ are repudiated for all to see. The SDA’s are focused on money, not Gospel truth.

Luke 16:13 “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.”

In spite of their wealth, (the SDA’s are worth about $35 BILLION), Old Covenant Adventism is dying for all to see. Good. This paves the way for New Covenant Adventism, where Gospel Truth is featured, respected, and obeyed.

If you think that tithing is a bad doctrine that needs correction, just wait until the SDA’s, and the rest of the churches, get the memo about the NC Sabbath of Christ.

Just as Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath caused an uproar, dividing and enraging the Jews, so too will his same 7th day doctrine today. It is only a matter of time before the genuine Sabbath of Christ becomes known to the church, condemning them all as being blind to the Gospel and full of error. Too bad that the SDA’s are fighting against such necessary and true Gospel Reform when they should have been leading out in this final work, which was their destiny.

Very sad.

Gospel Blessing to you,

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism

tom_norris · 09-23-14 10:12 am

The Scandal of Tithe in the Church

ATomorrow.Com thread: Oct 2, 2008 – Dec 18, 2008.
------------------------------------

This tithing thread was salvaged from JR’s, old ATomorrow Forum, which is no longer functional.

It starts with the discovery by Irene that only tithe paying members can hold office in the local SDA church. While this has always be the practice of SDA’s, apparently it was not a well-known policy.

Consequently, Irene was shocked at such a doctrine and asked for comments. All sides of the debate are represented, so it is easy to see which side has the most evidence and which side is shooting blanks.

Not only do we hear from the late JR, we also see Bob Sands making his first post on this tithing thread. Bob has since rejected Adventist Reform, choosing instead to champion the Every Day Sabbath fraud from the so-called New Covenant Theology crowd.

See:

New Covenant Theology - Bob Sands
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=12

(This anti-Gospel teaching has been exposed as error by Tom Norris.)

See also: 1 Cor. 9:4,12, 18; Gal. 6:6.

These passages indicate that God expects His people to support the church. The details of paying a tenth of one’s income are from the Old Testament. To say that this is just for Israel or just for the old covenant raises some problems:

1. The Christian church of today has become the Israel of the Old Testament (Romans 11) with all the promises and responsibilities.

2. The Old Covenant was a short term affair lasting about six weeks and never supplanted the everlasting covenant.

3. There are some details in church administration for which God gave the church authority – which even heaven recognizes.

quote:

“And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:19

Here are some quotes from the Church Manual, 16th edition (the newest).

quote:

“The gospel plan for the support of the work of God in preaching the everlasting gospel is by the tithes and offerings of His people.” p. 151.  “all are encouraged to return a faithful tithe (one tenth of their increase or personal income) into the denomination’s treasury.” p. 153.  “Although the returning of tithe is not held as a test of fellowship, it is recognized as a scriptural obligation that every believer owes to God and as one of the spiritual exercises in which the giver should have a part in claiming by faith the fullness of blessing in Christian life and experience.”“ p. 154.  “The treasurer should always remember that relations with individual members are strictly confidential. The treasurer should be careful never to comment on the tithe returned by any member or of the income or anything concerning it, except to those who share the responsibility of the work.” P. 62

From the above I would gather that paying the tithe is a responsibility of the member and the recommendation of the church. I believe it has good New Testament support as outlined above. Also, as we pay tithe, God will bless us and more than make up all that we give to Him.

Hubert F. Sturges (please pardon, this may be the longest single post I have made!)

Bob Posted on Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 1:34 pm:

Yes Hubert, Matt. 23:23 makes my point. First remember Jesus was born under the law. He was talking to those under the law. The Pharisees were bringing their tithe, not of money, but from the land. They grew their tithe. Never are we told to pay tithe in shekels. From this we glean that only those who grew crops or animals ever paid this tax.

Now you contend that there is no break between the Old and New. that will make a great debating discussion at another point. If perhaps you are correct then those who believe in supporting the Levites with tithe should pay it as God instructed, not with money.

Another point is that not all Israelites were farmers. Those who were not didn't pay the tithe because they had no crops nor any animals. Your idea is diametrically opposed to what God ask the Israelites to do. Your church asks everyone to pay the tax. Yes, I say it is a tax because it surely isn't/wasn't given freely. It was part of the same law that SDAs claim ended at Calvary.

Do you see my point Hubert? The New Covenant in Jesus gives us a much better plan for supporting the work of saving souls. It is giving from the heart. I know that you practice that, so I am talking to the choir.

Far be it from me to try to convince those that give 10% of their money to the cause of God that they should not be doing that. What I am concerned about is telling the flock that they must give it to be in Grace with God and the church. This is definitely a false doctrine.

1 Corinthians 9:14 the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

We must differ as to what the Gospel contained Hubert. My understanding is that we are under the Gospel of Jesus and the Israelites were under the gospel of Moses. We can't serve both. I will choose Jesus. He fulfilled the law of Moses with the over 300 laws and they were nailed to His Cross. Listen to James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. This love entails much more than is covered in the last 6 commandments of the old law. In fact, the last 6 say nothing about love, they were requirements just like the SDA modified tithing system.

As for the other scripture you quoted, I find nothing there that would ever lead me to tithe.

Lets look at this tithing system in an other way. I was going to compare you with me, but I might be barking up the wrong tree to do so.

Anyway, lets say we have two tithe paying people and one makes $100,000 and the other makes 10,000. This is not an unreasonable scenario. One has $90,000 left after the tax and the other $9,000. $90,000 would buy almost anything within reason, $9,000 would hardly put food on the table. The government would be issuing food stamps. That is not a fair system Hubert and it has caused many to leave church in discouragement. I know because I have been there and I surely don't plan to go back to such a regime. In Christ,

Bob

------------------------------

Irene Posted on Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 4:59 pm:

I don't think anyone would disagree that the church does need financial support to run, to pay the bills. And the members are the only source for that.

My beef is........the way our pastor handled the situation at the nominating committee meeting that night. I would like to go back to that for a minute.

For him to bring a list of only the tithing members to the meeting for the committee to consider was, in my opinion, insulting and humiliating. Our church is small enough that the committee could easily look down the list and see whose name wasn't on the list.

One of the elders who isn't paying a tithe struggles to make ends meet. But she is on the platform almost every sabbath, she was preaching once a month at our church and at one of the two other churches our pastor has to pastor.

She helped organize a prison ministry, teaches a class, leads the music, assigns the duties for the sabbath service on a rotating basis. She is actually more involved in our church than the pastor is. He gets a salary and she doesn't.

With her leadership, we gave food and toys to three families in the community last Christmas. The point being, service and talent to the church should count for something.

I don't know what we will do without her now that she does'nt qualify to hold office.

Actually, our pastor deserves what he's going to get this next year. He's going to have to do more of the work himself.

Renie

-----------------------------------------------------------

Elaine Posted on Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 8:33 pm:

Renie, my sympathies for the situation you find youself in.

However, your integrity is the only thing of value you have, and will take to Heaven with you. So stick by your principles, which you already know what is right: no one has a right to know who pays tithe--it is between the individual and God.

As for Christians and tithe, both Tom and Robert are right, and I have studied and know that there is not a single command in the NT for Christians to pay tithe. The verses in Corinthians outline what is expected of us, and it is NOT a tithe--which is a command given to the Jews. There were hundreds of commands given to the Jews, and how how SDAs decided which ones should now be observed and which ones are no longer to be observed?

For myself, I do not live in the Jewish system which is an entirely different system and it became obsolete after Christ, as all the NT clearly explains.

The more one studies the requirement for Christians as given by Paul (Jesus never gave any to Christians, only to good Jews) it can be seen that Adventists have combined the Old and New and "selected" those which they felt should be valid today. Don't ask on what basis they made those "picking and choosing" as you will find none; at least I've never seen a criteria that was used to classify those which are still to be observed today and those which are no longer valid.

I could say much more, but if anyone here wants to offer information on the questions and statements I've made, please do so.

---------------------------

Hubert Posted on Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 8:54 pm:

Irene,

Several years ago I received a call from Texas. A man, "SDA", was anxious to help ex-missionaries. He offered me a share in drilling an oil well. A share would cost $7,500 initially, and if the drilling was successful, another $7,500 to complete the well. Returns could be anywhere from $1,000 to $9,000 per month.

With bills from building a house, and a son in Loma Linda - you bet I was tempted. I thought I would see what EGW had to say. She was very kind. She did not say it was wrong, only that such an investment would fail and I would lose my money!

Well, what did she know about oil wells? Yet if my religion meant anything to me, maybe I should take her advice. So I did, and turned down the offer.

As it turned out the initial drilling was successful. Which meant that if I had invested I would need to come up with a second $7,500 to complete the well. I did not invest. When they tried to complete the well, salt water flooded the well and the project failed.

Bottom line: Ellen White saved me $15,000.

------

About the tithe: I realize that you are not arguing against the tithe -- only against publicizing the names of tithe payers. I get from the church manual that it is appropriate for the pastor to know who the tithe payers are. For a list of tithe payers to be brought before a committee does not seem wise. By exclusion it would be easy to know those who did not pay tithe.

How about the poor and those who are just scraping by? If Malachi 3:8-10 means anything, God has promised that he will bless the remaining 90% and give blessings to make it more valuable than an untithed 100%. Thus even the very poor need to pay tithe because they need that blessing.
----------

Here is how I think it works. Just this week my car (a 1997 Dodge Caravan) boiled over. I immediately parked and called a tow truck. There was water under the front end of the car. I looked and saw only new hoses and no evidence of a leak. The only think I could think of was a cracked block -- and with an 11 year old car, than means the scrap yard.

The garage looked it over and found a "cracked radiator." Instead of a $5,000 bill for a new engine, the bill was $375 for a new radiator. (I guess radiators nowadays are plastic, and failure is not uncommon). A coincidence, of course. OR did God save me $4,625 because I am a tithe payer?

Dunno.

Hubb
----------------------------------

Hubert Posted on Monday, October 6, 2008 - 1:48 pm:

Bob,

I am a firm believer that God gave messages for the church through Ellen White. Further, I believe that Ellen White was given to the church to prepare the 144,000, a special group -- NOT the only ones saved.

Having said that, I recognize that EGW has been misused. There are some people who will preach a sermon or write an article with only a string of EGW quotes. I believe that this is a misuse of EGW and is evidence of laziness on the part of the speaker or writer.

In my covenant project, I have used the Bible almost entirely. There is an occasional EGW quotation, not for proof, but for the language she uses to make a point.

You mentioned Strong's Concordance. I use a computer program called "WordSearch." I can quickly find verses with this by reference or by a phrase in the verse. There is also a cross-reference feature that helps a lot to find verses on the same topic. Of course, there is Strongs; and I have about twelve Bible translations.

----------

Where is Bogan Flats campground? I have a medical school classmate who lives in Redstone. He has an acreage on the crystal river, and holds marriage seminars there with the help of his psychiatrist son-in-law. Next time you go camping there, let us know. I need to visit my classmate too.

Colorado is not new to us. We have lived in Colorado for ten years prior to this move. Six of those years in Colorado Springs.

It sounds like you have a beautiful place there in Tennessee.

-----------------------------

Hubert

JR Posted on Monday, October 6, 2008 - 2:52 pm:

There is NOTHING, NOTHING which gets me hotter under the collar, the monthly "newsletter" from the Texico Conference to my son (who's name is still on the church books. (nice expensive slick 4 color process from the conference treasure)

They always send a tithe envelope:

Now besides the FACT, as Tom Norris has repeatedly pointed out over the years, that there is NO mention of a "tithe" in the NT.

Now they want a 20% Tithe.

Someone correct me, if I'm wrong. But the 10% in the OT went to the tribe of Levi. This supported them, and they took care of the all religious activities, the Temple, the priest, the religion teachers, etc?

Now they want an extra 5% for "Local Church Budget!" IN OT TIMES, the Levites cleaned the temple, printed the SS programs, held "evangelistic programs," took care of "community Services." WHY DOESN'T THE SDA CHURCH USE THE TITHE, AS THEY DID IN OT TIMES?

Then they want 3% for "Texico Conference Ministries." Church schools building (isn't that a temple, and shouldn't the 10% take care of it?) "Youth Ministries" Ah, the Conference Youth director, a minister can't be paid out of the 10%.......? Sheeeeesh

Another 2% for "World Ministries." WHAT A FAKE OUT...... There isn't any way in the world I'd ever be a Seventh-day Adventist again......since the brethren are SO DISHONEST......keep the 10% for their own sticky pockets......and claim that their not to use in on cleaning up the church...or even hiring a secretary for the pastor of a large church!

BS, BS, BS, AND more BS! The SDA church has POLUTED the used of the Tithe, for the Ordains own SELFISH purposes.....and then lays a guilt trip on the poor FLEECED SHEEP. To give them more, more, more!

I wonder if the Chief Rabbi, of the Levi't tribe, in King David’s day, was able to swing himself a more the $500,000 exclusive "executive" home......Just as Jon Paulson was able to arrange......After Folkenberg sold his home for excess of $460,000 (Ol Bob, sure liked to live the high on the HOG life....with his $24,000 Harley Motorcycle! and the Helicopter he insisted be rented for him, where-ever he happened to be traveling, even in Papua New Guinea (they had to bring one over from Australia, just for him!)

I recall one member here telling me, that even in Dayton Ohio.....Folkenburg couldn't be bothered with simply having a Lemo pick him up from the airport, but insisted that Kettering Memorial Hospital rent a Helicopter for him.

Too bad, that the Good Lord, doesn't practice the art of instant punishment anymore.....like he did with Eli's son's! We might have Ministers who actually took their role seriously! Instead of for self enrichment!

I remember seeing pictures of the last GC in St. Louis. NAD Pres' Don Snieder had to have Segway rented for him.....Me thinks, that if he walked some of that FAT off, he might have prevented some of his brain lesions, and would be in better health.

--------------------------------------------------

Ron Corson Posted on Monday, October 6, 2008 - 4:40 pm:

Tom wrote:

Here is the point you were trying to find. It was purposely hidden, but it is there nonetheless:

To Foster Tithing-As one who faithfully returns tithe, the elder can do much to encourage the church members to return a faithful tithe. (See pp. 136-138, 191.) Anyone who fails to set an example in this important matter should not be elected to the position of elder or to any other church office.

Tithing can be fostered by public presentation of the scriptural obligations privilege and responsibility of stewardship and by personal labor with the members. Such labor should be carried on in a tactful and helpful manner. The elder should regard all financial matters pertaining to church members as confidential and should not place such information in the hands of unauthorized persons.

http://members.aol.com/sdachurch/manual/cmann.htm

So here is the place where the SDA's come out and say: "no tithe, no office." They tried to bury it, but it is there for all to see anyway, because this is how the church controls people.

Renie also posted that part but you are not sunk yet. They must define tithe as only 10% that goes to the SDA church. Is that the biblical definition of tithe?

The problem is not support of the church or charitable giving those I agree are examples the church leadership should give. The problem is that they take upon themselves the role of creating a new tithe and themselves as the sole repository of tithe. So that is where you hit them. On what authority do they make the claim as being the storehouse of God.

New Protestants.com
------------------------------------------

Bob Sheilds Posted on Monday, October 6, 2008 - 8:37 pm:

Hubert wrote:

Where is Bogan Flats campground? I have a medical school classmate who lives in Redstone. He has an acreage on the crystal river, and holds marriage seminars there with the help of his psychiatrist son-in-law. Next time you go camping there, let us know. I need to visit my classmate too.

Bogan Flats is about 10 miles beyond Red Stone at the foot of McClure Pass. It is on the same road that goes into Marble and on to Crystal. Our kids did Wilderness Challenge survival out of Crystal years ago. That is what led us to the area. Most of the Crystal area is owned by an Adventist family. I think they made it into a corporation.

I remember years ago we met you, Barbara and your children at a camping area South of Rocky Mountain Park. It must have been around 1964. Time flies when having fun.

I began giving up on Ellen White about 15 years ago. It started differently than for most formers. In Sabbath School she was over quoted and every debated point was solved by reading from something she wrote. My thought was always "why don't we prove our points from scripture?" During Friday night Bible study the same would happen. My Bible scripture was never as good as what was quoted from Ellen. The more they pushed her the more I resisted. Then I began a quest to prove her wrong.

Boy, did I find what I was looking for. I could write a book, but since many have already been written I am sure mine wouldn't rate with those who have diligently made her a special study. The church has hidden so much Hubert. From the church we only get one side of her. There is no way she could qualify to be a prophet or "much more than" as she said of herself. I have read the apologists and there arguments are weak at best.

I have grown much since leaving her behind. I believe she has caused multi more problems for the church and individuals than she has ever helped. When Adventists really take her seriously, even though she is dead she controls their minds and the results are sad. I know because I have friends that have come under her control. Not only are they robots, but legalism abounds.

The false tithing system that SDAs teach is just the tip of the iceberg that got approval from her pen.

Dig into her writings Hubert and you will be surprised what you will find.

In Christ, Bob

----------------------------------

Cadge Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 10:40 am:

Hi Renie,

First of all there is no tithe in the New Testament church by any directive that I can make out. Secondly, we have a simple mission; relieve suffering humanity and spread the Gospel, which is forgivness for our sins and power/deliverance from them. If I am to listen to Paul after the counsel arrived at when the Jewish converts were insisting that the Gentile converts keep the OT tenets of the law, I can only come to one conclusion.

In Acts Chapter 15 the Jewish converts insisted that the Gentile converts be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. There was a big "pow wow" amongst the elders and Peter related that the Holy Spirit had come upon the converts signifying their acceptance by God "purifying their hearts by faith" and why put a yoke upon them that "neither our fathers nor we were able to bear, but we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they". The tithing system was tied into this yoke being one of the works of the law.

The consensus of the meeting was as thus: " Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood". Then they wrote letters to the other churches about the meeting saying " it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well".

Paul repeats this again in Acts 21:25. That's it, and you will find out as you read from Pauls writings further on( Rom14, 1 Cor 8:4-9, 1Cor10: 23-33, Col. 2:16,20,21,22, 1Tim4:1-6.) that they were not to eat these meats not because they were unclean, but so that those who did consider them as so would not be turned from hearing the Gospel. God did not create these animals as unclean, but designated them as so, after the fall of Adam and Eve, for a time to be used as object lessons of self denial (did you know that pork is considered the most nutritious of the meats) in the war against the inclinations of our lower natures. When the sheet was lowered three times to Peter in Acts chapter 10, and "the voice" had instructed "what God hath cleansed, that call not common", it meant that the unclean designation was no longer in effect as to man or beast.

That is why Paul could say "I KNOW AND AM PERSUADED BY THE LORD JESUS, THAT THERE IS NOTHING UNCLEAN OF ITSELF". For everything created before the fall "God saw that it was good".

Now, you'll have to forgive me for digressing a bit, but it was to make a point concerning tenets of the law, as was tithing.

Tithing was tied into an enclosed Jewish religio/national economic system that involved much interrelated factors that involved giving and recieving upon certain criteria and levels within that nation that can not be applied to the universal New Testament church. And what was tithed was based upon the profits gained at the end of the year after all the other debts and demands were satisfied by those who met the criteria to pay tithe.

Every third year the tithe was witheld by the thithee to use at his own discretion in relieving the burdens of the less fortunate, the stranger and the Levite. The Levites used this for their sustenance and the accomodations needed for the sanctuary service; animals and what not. They had no inheiritance, no land, nothing to own ( the church leaders of today do not fit this criteria, they own plenty).

This was a good bar against corruption, however not foolproof, as we see by Matt. 21:12 when Jesus "overturned the tables of the moneychangers" etc. Deut.24 and 25 and also 1Cor. 9 say that the laborer whether for secular work or the Gospel have a right to derive sustenance for their labors ("shall not muzzle the ox"), but this is not a directive for tithe. It comes from voluntary offerings and whatever other labors they may make gain. Speaking of Paul, Acts 18:3 says: "because he was of the same craft, he abode with them (Aquilla and Pricilla) and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers". (Why, were people witholding tithe? No, there wasn't any more tithing.)

Cadge Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 10:43 am:

Let's see some examples of how the money was handled, gained or used in the N.T. church. Acts 20:32-35: "And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive".

Romans 15: 25-28: " But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain". (It doesn't mention him bringing any tithe to a Jerusalem church, central storehouse, only offerings for "poor saints")

1 Cor 16: 1-3 " Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by [your] letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem". ( No tithe being sent here either; there wasn't one.)

2Cor. 9:5-7 "Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as [a matter of] bounty, and not as [of] covetousness. But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver". 2Cor. 9:12-13 "For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God; Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for [your] liberal distribution unto them, and unto all [men];". 2Cor. 9:15 " Thanks [be] unto God for his unspeakable gift. (GIFT, no tithe here either)

Phil.4: 10-19 But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity. Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, [therewith] to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction.

Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity. Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things [which were sent] from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God. But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. (Where on earth was the tithe money? There wasn't any.

It was all about sacrificial giving from the heart.) When we come into an experience where "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us"Rom.5:5, we will live to further the Gospel and relieve the suffering of humanity whereas much of it is do to a trickling down, a result of, the greed of the powers that be and those that fall under their influences.

Some quote Matt. 23:23 ( "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone".) to substantiate the claim that tithe is carried on in the N.T. church, but is it? No, These folks were not recognizing Jesus as the Messiah and Jesus hadn't died and rose yet in fulfillment of the law, therefore they were still under obligation to the ordinances of the law. We don't do that now.

Continued

tom_norris · 09-23-14 10:14 am

Cadge Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 10:45 am:

When Jesus cleansed the leper in Matt. 8:4, Mark 1:44, and Luke 5:14 he told him to " tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded". We don't do that now when we're healed, do we?

In Acts 16:3 Paul had Timothy circumcised as not to offend the Jews. They also, in Acts 21, shaved their heads for a vow for the rite of purification so as not to offend the Jews that had not accepted Christ's Gospel so that they would be able to approach them with it. We don't become circumcised or shave our heads according to the law today either. All these things, tithe and what not, were of Old Covenant Israel.

The tithing system is a barrier to those who need the Gospel the most. It keeps them away when they can't afford it. When and If the "poor widow", of Mark 12, who gave the "two mites" had an income of 500 dollars a year and all her living expences amounted to 498 dollars and she gave the other two dollars to the church ("all she had, even all her living") would she be accused of withholding tithe? The O.T. tithe being mandated in the N.T. church tends to let people into thinking that when they give the10 percent, that they can live like the world with the rest.

They become fogged to the concept that it all belongs to God. When there is no minimum reqirement placed on our means and our hearts, through a close abiding with the Holy Spirit, become burdened for those who have not what we have experienced in the Gospel, we will be inspired to be productive with our efforts to gain wealth in order to help those in captivity to sin be set free. Isn't that what we're supposed to be living for?

Do I disregard the obvious needs of the sinners around me because, this sinner, me, has spent what means would have been available on the false tithe, or am I ready to meet the needs of those on my path as was the good Samaritan. Am I to be involved in personally touching the hearts of poor or suffering or lost and wayward sinners or am I, a saved sinner, that hopes they make it because I dropped whatever power I had to be able to help, into the basket from the church pew? Maybe the gvt will give a hoot, they're a warm hearted, Gospel living, salvation message bearing bunch, not!

The tithing system also has a corrupting influence and encourages the formation of a hierarchy that takes liberties that foster affluence, avarice, greed, and power and position that are not unlike what Luther recognized as the corruption in the church of his day which stood in stark contrast to the lowly Jesus and the self-sacrificing spirit of the church as recorded in the scriptures. These unsound liberties are an offence to the poorer sacrificing members and a corrupting influence to the membership on the whole. Just flip on the TV and hear the shameful bragging of the wealth that many evangelists live within and promise their members that they can have too if they keep pumping up the tithe treasury.

It's called "prosperity preaching" and it appeals to a spirit of covetesness and idolatry, not holiness. You would think by the example of Jesus, that the leadership of God's church would set a closer example of self- sacrifice that the spirit would filter down through the masses and glorify God.

Why isn't there any tithe in the Cathoilic church today? They are the direct decendants of the N.T. church. Because, there never was any tithe after Christ.

Believe me, if there ever was, they never would have discontinued it. They get their filthy lucre from indulgences that the decieved followers of the Roman Catholic Church pay to earn their own and their dead relatives salvation and freedom from purgatory. They get their other monies from free will offerings and donations because that's how it always was and still is, unless you preach a false doctrine.

THERE IS NO BIBLICAL FOUNDATION FOR TITHE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH

Cadge
--------------------------------------------

Irene Posted on Friday, October 10, 2008 - 9:03 pm:

Thanks Cadge for your in depth study on tithing or, I guess, not tithing. I'm printing it off along with many other comments from the rest of you to give to my pastor at the next board meeting.

All of your comments have given me confidence to go forward. I feel assured that making my concerms known is a valid move..

I'm not usually a fighter. I sorta sit back and figure the Lord will take care of it, but sometimes He needs a little help.

Renie
---------------------------

Hub Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 8:50 am:

Tithe in the New Testament:

Tithing was a system advocated in the Old Testament for support of the Levites. Apparently it was largely built on the barter system, and used in some cases for events that were specifically Jewish. Since there is no clear “thou shalt pay a tithe” in the New Testament does that mean that the issue was ignored? Are there principles from the custom of tithing that would be applicable today?

Malachi 3:8-12 is probably the clearest old testament passage about the tithe. In this passage, tithing is an obligation, and those who do not pay “tithes and offerings” are “robbers of God.” Tithes were to be brought into a “storehouse” which is not defined except to provide (“meat” or food) in the house of God. This would indicate that tithes and offerings were to support God’s work.

Are poor people expected to pay tithe? To specify one tenth of one’s increase as the tithe is a very fair system. There is no question but that the rich have much more “discretionary income than the poor.” But the promise is that those who pay tithe will be richly blessed. Maybe the poor need that blessing even more than the rich?

With this as a background, what can we say for the New Testament church? A number of verses have been presented to show that God expected His people to support the church. The following issue has not been discussed:

quote:
“And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matthew 16:19),

Jesus Himself gave the church authority to address details of His work on earth. Jesus expected that the church be support by the people, not by “manna.” The church has recommended that a fair way to do this is through the tithe. I believe this is valid.

---------------------------------

Hub Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 8:52 am:

Some will argue that the church is corrupt, has become an instrument of Satan, is lead by greedy politicians and should not be supported. Some who take this extreme view are actually trying to destroy the church. Some have taken the next logical step to establish independent churches – most of which have failed, and none have had more than a local influence.

How does God view the church? No question God is disappointed with the church. It contains too many unrepentant sinners and hypocrites (bad fish). But, the Bible pictures the church as the “bride” greatly loved by her Husband, Christ. Revelation 12 describes a “woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:” And remember, this is the “remnant” the end time church.

To address specific questions:

Cadge has presented a rather extensive argument against tithing in the Christian church. Here is one sentence:

quote:

“First of all there is no tithe in the New Testament church by any directive that I can make out. Secondly, we have a simple mission; relieve suffering humanity and spread the Gospel,”

”No tithe in the New Testament” is not entirely true. The principle is there. This is shown in his next statement, to “relieve suffering humanity and spread the gospel.” How can this be done if the people do not support the church?

quote:

“The tithing system was tied into this yoke being one of the works of the law.”

This is creative to say the least. To take this approach is to deny much of the Old Testament. If tithing is a work of the law, the specific command is “Thou shalt not steal” and I think every Christian agrees that command is still expected of Christians.

Was tithing part of the old covenant? This implies that the ceremonial law was part of the old covenant, for which there is no Bible support. It also implies that God gave the old covenant to Israel for the entire old testament period. To say this is to say that God gave a faulty covenant to Israel. I believe this is a misunderstanding of the old covenant.

Hub Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 8:54 am:

Paul discusses support of the church in a number of passages, none of which advocate tithing, yet none deny the principle. The principle of tithing is a very fair way to spread the burden of support equally among the members.

One final quote:

quote:

“The tithing system also has a corrupting influence and encourages the formation of a hierarchy”

This is entirely a human supposition. It is true that tithe is sometimes misused. Does this mean that we should not pay tithe? Is a hierarchy wrong? The Seventh-day Adventist church was organized in order to support the world wide mission effort, which has been quite successful because of following God’s plan for support. The hierarchy of the SDA is much different from the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic church.

Can these things be corrupted? Yes. Have they been corrupted? To some degree, yes. Has God abandoned the Seventh-day Adventist church? NO! Is the hierarchy corrupt? A resounding NO! The ministry and the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist church are largely Spirit-led God fearing men and women. Is there dead wood and bad apples among them? Probably. It is after all a human effort. But I fully believe that God has given a message to this church that He purposes to be given to the world, and that through this church He is preparing a people to see Him come again.

Hubert F. Sturges

--------------------------------

Devon Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 9:46 am:

Hubb,

Do you believe that all we own really belongs to God?

If so, our attitude should be to hold our talents, treasure and time with an open hand towards God.

The imperfect fellowship that I attend, does not advocate tithing, yet we are able to function and to support several specific overseas missionaries, Gospel for Asia and a county wide crisis pregnancy organization.

Well taught people give out of thanks, not out of a legal obligation.

Limiting our giving to 10% is kind of like limiting our worship to one day out of a seven day week.

-----------------------------------

Hub Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 1:20 pm:

Devon, Yes, I do believe that the Bible teaches that all belongs to God. Adam was given dominion of this earth under God. He, himself, also belonged to God, as do we. You have well said that we should hold all our talents, treasure and time with an open hand towards God.

The tithe, or 10%, was never intended to be a limiting factor. The Israelites also gave offerings, maybe another 15 - 20%. Malachi 3 accuses the Jews of robbing God because of their holding back on tithes and offerings.

While SDAs strongly recommend tithing, it is not a legal obligation. From what I have heard only 30% of SDAs pay tithe. I have been on many church boards and a person's membership has never been questioned on the basis of paying tithe.

Incidentally, our worship is not limited to one day a week. In the sanctuary service there was the morning and evening sacrifice every day. We recommend the same in our church, that people worship God every day, and that all that a person does in business and pleasure be "done unto God."

-------------------------------

Elaine Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 10:38 pm:

There are a lot of good "principles" in the Bible. However, to make them obligatory does not change the fact that they are more like "suggestions."

There should be a better way of defining principles than making them doctrines.

From the "Fundamentals:"

"Tithes As one seventh of our time (the Sabbath) belongs to God, so does one tenth of all material things we acquire. Scripture tells us the the tithe is "holy to the Lord," symbolizing God's ownership of everything (Lev. 27:30,32). It is to be returned to Him as His own.

When God calls for the tithe (Mal. 3:10), He makes no appeal to gratitude of generosity....We tithe because God has commanded it."

There are no NT texts shown; all come for the OT. Is the OT the rule and faith for Christian practice or Jewish? All those rules were given to the Jews and never to Christians. Are Adventists Jewish/Christians?
---------------------------------------

Cadge Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 10:39 pm:

Hubb said:

"A number of verses have been presented to show that God expected His people to support the church. The following issue has not been discussed:"

quote:

“And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matthew 16:19),

And: "Jesus Himself gave the church authority to address details of His work on earth. Jesus expected that the church be support by the people, not by “manna.” The church has recommended that a fair way to do this is through the tithe. I believe this is valid."

My reply: **

Hubb, if you want to make tithe for the N.T. church legitimate, you have to do it by the scriptures, not wants, hopes and suppositions. The "binding" has to be based on the Word. As I have shown, there is no scriptural basis for tithe in the N.T. church.

I'm sure that the Pope would be very happy to claim that rationalization that you've put forth in an attempt exhonorate Catholicism from a host of criticisms.

------------------------

Hubb quotes me:

“The tithing system was tied into this yoke being one of the works of the law.”

------------------------------------------------------

Then Hubb says:

"This is creative to say the least. To take this approach is to deny much of the Old Testament. If tithing is a work of the law, the specific command is “Thou shalt not steal” and I think every Christian agrees that command is still expected of Christians.

Was tithing part of the old covenant? This implies that the ceremonial law was part of the old covenant, for which there is no Bible support. It also implies that God gave the old covenant to Israel for the entire old testament period. To say this is to say that God gave a faulty covenant to Israel. I believe this is a misunderstanding of the old covenant."

To which I say, huh?

The term "Torah" (Hebrew: תּוֹרָה, "teaching" or "instruction," sometimes translated as "Law,"[1]) most commonly refers to the text of the Five Books of Moses or Pentateuch. It may also refer to the entirety of Judaism's founding legal and ethical religious texts.[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

Cadge

-----------------------

Bob Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 10:46 pm:

Hubert wrote:

"The tithe, or 10%, was never intended to be a limiting factor. The Israelites also gave offerings, maybe another 15 - 20%. Malachi 3 accuses the Jews of robbing God because of their holding back on tithes and offerings."

Hubert, allow me to remind you again that only those who raised animals and produce were under the tithing law. The carpenter, shoe maker, tent maker and etc. did not pay tithe. I believe you are telling us that all were required to pay tithe. If you are going to follow the Old Covenant at least get it correctly. What makes you think the church can teach that all have an obligation to tithe when God didn't even require everyone under the law to tithe?

You quote scripture “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matthew 16:19)

I would be very careful using that bit of scripture to give the SDA Church a free hand at creating a modified tithing system. The SDA Church is very critical of the RCC for stating the above to justify how they conduct their church.

First of all the SDA Church claims that their modified tithing system is Biblical. We have proven that it is not Biblical. You have given no proof that it was a law imposed upon all Israelites. You have given no proof that it was ever paid in shekels. You have given no proof that it is a New Testament teaching. You surely wouldn't get very far with your arguments in a court of law.

Ellen White said it is the right thing to do, but can we trust her? She was sure wrong about Jesus pleading with the Father to come and be the redeemer after the fall. You even quoted the truth about the matter.

Bob

-----------------------------

Hub Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 9:47 pm:

Cadge,

To comment on this statement of yours:

quote:

"Hubb, if you want to make tithe for the N.T. church legitimate, you have to do it by the scriptures, not wants, hopes and suppositions. The "binding" has to be based on the Word. As I have shown, there is no scriptural basis for tithe in the N.T. church.   "I'm sure that the Pope would be very happy to claim that rationalization that you've put forth in an attempt exonerate Catholicism from a host of criticisms."

You claim that there is "no scriptural basis for tithing in the New Testament." I have shown the following:

1) The New Testament is based on the Old Testament. You cannot separate them.

2) Tithing is not ignored in the New Testament. How the tithing of mint and anise and cummin is made -- in goods or in coin -- is beside the point. Jesus said that "this ought ye to have done" shows His support for tithing.

3) A reference to the authority Christ gave to the church is far different from the authority that is taken by the Pope. The church has authority to "bind" on earth only according to what is allowed by scripture. This is not authority to "remake" law as the Catholic church claims to do.

Hubert F. Sturges

--------------------------------

Irene Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 12:07 pm:

Well, went to the church board meeting Monday night and the committee did what I thought it would. They stuck with the pastor.

My friend (who no longer qualifies as an elder since she is unable to pay a tithe) went with me.

We shared our concerns about the pastor presenting the names of tithe payers to the nominating committee. I mentioned some of the good information you guys had shared with me too. There was some shock that this could happen and some discussion as to the privacy issue, The treasurer seemed shocked. He said he didn't know what the list was for when he gave it to the pastor. Said he feels uncomfortable giving out any information. In the end the committee would not vote on my recommendations.

They were:

1. That the committee recommend that tithe not be an issue in picking someone for church office. And that the committee give that recommendation to next year's nominating committee.

2. That the treasurer not give out names of members and their tithe paying records, except to an assistant treasurer or an auditor.

When it came time to vote, all the members sat there with their heads down and the pastor, who was sitting at the end of the table, sat there looking over his glasses at everyone with his arms folder over his chest. HE HAD WON! My friend and I thanked them for listening and left.

In the end, it's all about the green stuff (money) and not about people.

I don't know what to do now. I should just leave and find another church, but some of my friends are in that church (they weren't on the church board). Maybe I will stay away for a month or so and see how I feel.

It's always hard to loose when you are fighting for a cause.

renie

---------------------------------

Sirje Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 5:24 pm:

Renie,

You did good. Don't let this stuff ruin your friendships - then they will really have won. Hold your head up high and do what your heart tells you. Been there, done that.

-----------------------------

Irene Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 5:30 pm:

Thanks Sirje.....thanks so much for your words. I need them.

I appreciate the encouragement all of you have given me. It always helps to know there are people who have been there and know how I feel.

Thanks for your friendship.

Renie
-------------------------------------------

Hub Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 5:57 pm:

Irene,

I have been through some church problems and have come to this philosophy:

Mistakes have been made, wrong actions have been taken. What should we do?

1. The church is not primarily about the pastor or even about the officers. It is about Jesus Christ.

2. Even when you are right and the leaders are wrong, do not leave the church. You can still worship God, and that is what church is about.

3. You can still attend the SS classes and fellowship with friends and encourage them.

4. You can still help others and witness in whatever way you choose.

Bottom Line: Your Christian life and witness is very little impacted by the mistakes and wrong actions of others!

Please pardon my giving advice from the sidelines. I wish I could say that I have followed my own advice. In looking back on my experience, I wish that this is what I had done.

Hubert F. Sturges

-------------------------------------------

Elaine Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 9:46 pm:

Renie, for what it's worth, I would go to the conference president (or write a letter) and tell him the whole story. If he doesn't answer your concern in a reasonable amount of time and satisfactorily, I would inform the union president.

This behavior is despicable. And when something is inherently wrong, to ignore it means that someone is willing to accomodate to it and essentially, put up with it. Otherwise, how do you feel if you haven't done all you possibly can to see that this doesn't happen again?

Think of the Catholic priests who were shunted from one parish to another because people didn't scream loudly enough. You will know what you should do, then follow your integrity.

I disagree with Hubb's statement:

Your Christian life and witness is very little impacted by the mistakes and wrong actions of others!

In the face of wrong actions, the failure to speak up is what eventually caused the Holocaust; it is what allows children to be molested; it allows people to steal from churches; it allows evil to continue when we have an opportunity to stop it. What is they say about good people who stand by and do nothing when they could change things?

Hubb Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 10:50 pm:

I am trying to point out when action is effective, and when it is not. If you do what Elaine says, you will be labeled a trouble maker and marginalized. I know, I have been through it.

Of course, you must speak up at the right times. Those times are when a wrong is within your sphere of influence. The criminal actions that Elaine speaks of must be opposed with every means at our disposal. I think you are right about those tithe lists, but those are not criminal actions.

When you have said what needs to be said, and the pastor and the church board vote against you -- the conference is going to side with the pastor and the board. So, then is the time to be quiet and pray.

Sometimes a wrong is so egregious that you have to move on. But there is a right time to move on. Be careful that you do not "cut off your nose to spite your face!" In some cases it is better to let some time go by, let the situation cool down. Then if in your best judgment you need to move on, you will not be considered to be pitying yourself.

Well ... I tank I say too much already!

-------------------------

Hubb

Irene Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 11:31 pm:

You both, Elaine and Hubb state so many good points.

I'm inclined to agree with you Hubb. You are absolutely right that the conference and union presidents would commend my pastor for his loyalty. And I would look like a trouble causer.

I am going to have to take some time off from church . I need the time to decide what I'm going to do down the road.

renie.

-------------------------------

Maggie Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 12:56 am:

If there is anything the SDA church needs, it's trouble causers.

It's not virtuous to absorb spiritual abuse passively.

That's why the social system is so unhealthy - initiative is punished and passivity is rewarded.

Maggie
------------------------------------------

Hub Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 9:26 am:

If there is anything the SDA church needs it is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit -- in the lives of individual believers and in the church body as a whole. Issues of church administration tend to end up as power struggles and take our eyes off what it means to be a Christian -- to follow and be like Jesus Christ.

Let us not be distracted from that goal

---------------------------------------------------

Carol Fowler Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 12:25 pm:

Amen Maggie!!!

Hubb,

I'm not sure the Adventist church would recognize the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Anything that doesn't follow the status quo (meaning Ellen's teachings) is squashed like a pesky bug. But, carry on, and continue to see the church dry up, as hundreds of thousands of people have moved on, and shook the dust off their feet. New wine into old wineskins won't do.

Speaking of going to the conference president, is it possible that this is coming down from "on high"? Just a thought. Not that I'm excusing bad stuff from the pastor, but that is how it works in Adventism.

----------------------------------

Ron Corson Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 1:48 pm:

Just out of curiosity do you have someone you know on the board who is in agreement with you. If so have him/her place the item and your recommendations on the agenda and next meeting ask for a vote. The Pastor as chairman should not be voting unless there is a tie vote.

Until they actually vote on this issue it is not over as long as you can get a board member to make a motion to vote on the recommendations.

New Protestants.com
------------------------------------------

Irene Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 5:43 pm:

I did ask for a vote Ron. There were three members that I felt would stand with the two of us that were there. But no, they wouldn't. No one would vote period. They just sat there. It was pretty evident no one would go against the pastor. They were afraid of the church manual too.

Renie
-----------------------------------------

Bob Sands Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 9:41 pm:

Irene, I have only followed briefly what Hubb and Elaine are recommending. I was threatened with censure on an issue, I considered right. If I didn't stay quiet or shut up on an issue I felt needed exposure, so I transferred my membership to another SDA church so I could speak freely. And Elaine and Hubb, I was ignored at local, conference, Union and GC levels, but the local municipality convicted an Elder of the local church in question of assault. Shame on the whole church system, I say, and I have moved on, after I got the conviction of this guy.

------------------------------------

Elaine Nelson Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 9:45 pm:

The problems of small churches. We who are blessed to be able to attend larger churches do not realize how difficult things are in these churches. There is usually a clique that has run things for years and the pastor realizes that and so doesn't push things.

That may not be the reason, but from what you say, Renie, it appears that no one wants to cross the pastor, so if you want to change things it's going to be up to you. What have you got to lose? Your membership? Do you fear they'll disfellowship you or ostracise you?

The only thing for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing. The pastor has been using the arrogance of power.

______________________________________

Carol Fowler Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 10:13 pm:

Question:

How does the pastor know if people are paying 10%, 8.5%, or what percentage, unless he knows what their salary is? This is all so bogus and wrong!!!

Fear and intimidation are tools the SDA church has wielded very effectively from the beginning.

----------------------------

Ron Corson Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 11:07 pm:

If there is anything the SDA church needs it is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit....

The same could be said of the religious people of Jesus' time. Jesus had some choice words for them about their converts being "twofold children of hell," and all that.

It would hardly be fair to blame the converts, whose lives the Jews ruined, for the Holy Spirit not being poured out on the Jewish religion.

Likewise, I think it most unfair and unseemly for SDAs to blame whistleblowers, whom the SDA church has stonewalled, wounded and otherwise mistreated, for holding back the Holy Spirit.

It is very debased thinking, it seems to me, to try to silence people into submission with a smoothly delivered load of guilt.

You look for a Messiah who comes in and vindicates you to the world, like the Jews did.

Their money tables were overturned.

Those who call themselves Shepherds must bear all the exquisite responsibility that entails.

A person has to have a self to give that self to God.

People who have been stunted in their intellectual, emotional, social and spiritual growth by abusive social groups first need to take care of themselves and put themselves where they can heal and catch up with their own development.

They owe nothing to their abusers but to grow up and make the world a safer place, so that others don't suffer in the same way.

We can forgive and bless the past, but if we make ourselves mice, we can be sure the cats will eat us.

That said, may God bless all those on the Seventh-day Adventist path. May they all find what their hearts most desire.

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Ron Corson Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 11:31 pm:

I did ask for a vote Ron. There were three members that I felt would stand with the two of us that were there. But no, they wouldn't. No one would vote period. They just sat there. It was pretty evident no one would go against the pastor. They were afraid of the church manual too.

Well unless you are a member of the board you can't call for a vote. But if anyone on the board made a movement for a vote and it was seconded then they have to vote (it has to be voted on even if it is simply a motion to table the motion, if tabled they have to deal with it at the next meeting). If your church board is not following established board procedures they are in violation of SDA church procedures, that is they must have established rules for how a board functions, such as Roberts Rules of Order.

http://www.robertsrules.com/

Get a copy of the minutes and see what they say. You church may have bigger problems then just inappropriate distribution of tithe information. If that is the case you have to go to the conference administration. My guess is that they are not following proper procedures and the board is being manipulated by a Pastor who is acting improperly in his office.
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Bob Shields Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 7:22 am:

Renie, I want to say this in a kind way and still nail the fact that if the church were to follow the plan set forth in chapters 8 and 9 of 2 Cor you wouldn't be in this problem. New Covenant believers are to give out of their heart. There is no set amount, but where there is a need, because we love the Lord, we will rally to that need. Those who are more fortunate will be able to give larger amounts. Sometimes sacrifice is needed to support the mission of the church.

If churches would follow the plan set forth in the New Testament there would be no list of "faithful tithe payers". No one would ever know another persons giving habits.

The rule that only faithful "tithe" payers may be leaders in the church is sick, sick and more sick and only causes strife. Many are coerced into paying and giving that way is not out of love, the way the Lord would have us to give.

Instead of taxing, which is what the modified tithing system is, allow each one to give because they love Jesus and want to see the church fulfill its mission.

Our daughter is a teacher in the SDA system and she was giving some of her money to special needs. Like in your church the fathers found out because her recorded modified tithe didn't reflect her wages. She was told that she could no longer be hired if she continued to give her money to special needs. Coercion at its finest.

Bob
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Hubb Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 11:07 am:

I would like to remind you all that there is another side to the coin. Are there problems in the church, absolutely. But in this discussion it is being blown all out of proportion.

You need to realize also that people in leadership positions have to deal constantly with chronic complainers and real trouble makers. Because of the volume of these complaints they have little time to evaluate and deal with valid situations. And realize also that conference offices tend to have small staffs to deal with thousands of members.

If we were to really become political and accept the notion that the conference will solve all our problems, we would have to increase conference staffs ten fold and tax the members enough to make a tithe seem like pennies!

Hubb

-----------------------------------------------

Irene Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 12:01 pm:

Hubb...I'm probably feeling defensive when you really were'nt talking about me but I have to say in my defense that....

I've NEVER EVER complained to the conference about anything in the 64 years I've attended church. That's just not me.

This was just such an unfair and discrimiating policy I just had to step forward.

Renie

-------------------------------------------------

Irene Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 12:18 pm:

Ron, I tried to get the committee to call for a vote but nobody would so I asked for a vote myself. That's when the clerk should have put the recommendations to a vote but she said NOTHING.

They simply didn't want to vote.

I could'nt figure out where to go from there so I just said, "well, I've tried to do the right thing so I'm going home."

I suppose I could have been more aggressive but I just was bummed and stumped. I spent the night, not sleeping, but thinking I should have done this or that, said something else or shut up.

The result was set in concrete. The members would not vote against the pastor. There really was nothing that could have changed that.....

Well, unless I could have had all you guys there with me. Things would have been a lot different.

Renie

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Cadge Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 2:34 pm:

Ellen White created a loophole for you.

"Voluntary offerings and the tithe constitute the revenue of the gospel. Of the means which is entrusted to man, God claims a certain portion--a tithe; but He leaves all free to say how much the tithe is, and whether or not they will give more than this. They are to give as they purpose in their hearts." 5T 149

---------------------------------------------

Hub Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 3:03 pm:

Irene,

I certainly do not blame you for anything. After all, a lay person is an amateur at these things. The pastor, who is a professional, should keep in mind that his first consideration is the souls of others -- even if they disagree with him. That is how Jesus was, He tried even in His trial and crucifixion to save every soul He came in contact with.

My comments were meant to be a form of "damage control." Events such as you have been through, will often lead to a decision that lasts a lifetime. Please don't let that happen to you.

Lift up your eyes. Think through the scenes of Jesus' trial, crucifixion, and His resurrection. In the light of the cross, the events of earth should pale into insignificance. And please do not take what I say as judging you. Whenever a person writes he is first of all writing for himself. These are things I need to remember, too.

Hubb

------------------------------------------

Hub Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 3:10 pm:

Bob,
I think you have heard the saying: Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach others how to do. Those who can't teach, teach others how to teach.

Application: Too often when a pastor is just not making it as a pastor, where does he go? To the conference office! Let me quickly add that it is a minority of the personnel in the conference office who are pastors who just couldn't make it. But sometimes our problems arise when we are dealing with a person who doesn't know just what to do ...

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Maggie Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 3:23 pm:

Events such as you have been through, will often lead to a decision that lasts a lifetime. Please don't let that happen to you.

Sometimes those decisions are necessary.

When I tried to report sexually predatory behavior of a State Conference President to the General Conference President, I was referred to the insurance person at Risk Management, i.e., I was seen as a "risk" to be "managed."

When I said I didn't want to sue, I was told the General Conference President was too busy to talk with me.

No one exhibited the slightest curiosity about what that State Conference President's name was, and I never told.

He later became a regional Conference President.

The rot goes to the core, or, as David suggested, the fish rots from the head down.

Even Sorensen knows this. You all know this, if you let yourselves.

Good luck fixing all this.

Telling people to be meek little lambs in a rotten organization like this...well...I've seen too much of the seamy underbelly of this church to buy that.

Maggie

-----------------------------------------

Maggie Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 5:01 pm:

quote:

Tentatively admitting that it is possible that none of the funds loaned to Davenport will ever be recovered, Kenneth Wood states that if certain policies and principles had been followed by those in responsible positions this terrible embarrassment to the Church would not have occurred.   

He writes - "ONLY when each member of a committee, board, or other group expresses his convictions freely, questions unsafe financial policies, protests unsound proposals, and is willing, if necessary, to cast a negative vote, will responsible church bodies deserve full confidence."   This is a laudatory observation, and some of us who in the past years have done so, know the results of this sort of upright behaviour.   

But in this particular case, there is an ironical twist. In Southern California when the matter of the Davenport loans came up for discussion, and the interest payments were noted as delinquent, the Los Angeles Times (Aug. 9, 1981, IV-11) notes that Walter Rea and others on the committee did speak up, but to no avail.   

Now one must ask - Was Walter Rea defrocked only because he gave an interview to a Staff Reporter of the Los Angeles Times regarding his findings relative to the writings of Ellen G. White, or were there some other underlying factors such as his protest involving the Davenport investments?   

Will this be permitted to come to light should a full scale investigation be initiated by the General Conference?   -->

It is known that the President of Southern California involved in the defrocking of Rea has been moved to the Presidency of the British Union Conference.<--

Promotion for affirmative reaction to the wishes of the hierarchy, and devastating action against the voice of protest is the rule of the thumb which has been administered over the years.   Now the Editor of the Adventist Review says only when this rule is reversed can the church entities deserve the confidence of their constituents.

 http://www.questions4adventist.info/dav … ruptcy.htm

As I said...

Initiative is punished and passivity is rewarded.

You all know this if you let yourselves.

Maggie

----------------------------------------

Cadge Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 8:24 pm:

http://www.atomorrow.com/cgi-bin/discus … #POST89686

Did not anyone notice the confusion in this link? Ellen White says that you can make up your own tithe, and then decide if you want to give any more above it. If She believed that the biblical tithe was 10%, then by what authority does she claim to allow you to set your own? Then she goes on to say to give whatever you purpose in your heart. Why state it as a tithe at all then, because what she is saying in reality, when you add up the sum of her wording, is to give whatever you decide you want to.

So, it looks like this will be just fine: "2Cor. 9:5-7 "Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as [a matter of] bounty, and not as [of] covetousness. But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver". 2Cor. 9:12-13 "For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God; Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for [your] liberal distribution unto them, and unto all [men];". 2Cor. 9:15 " Thanks [be] unto God for his unspeakable gift. (GIFT, no tithe here either)"

Renie, according to Ellen White, your friend should not be held to a 10% necessary/voluntary tithe to maintain her involvement in church doings unless the pastor is determined to disregard the authority of his prophet.

----------------------------------------

Hub Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 10:17 pm:

Maggie,

I will defend myself to this degree: I am not and have not been passive. What I have observed is that laymen have very little influence in church administration. Recognizing this, I have to "pull in my horns" and make living a Christian life my priority.

I have never had to face the problems you state, and hope I never do. I have faced some, but in looking back, I could have handled it better. I have chosen not to think of those things now because I need to keep the faith and do all I can for my family.

The SDA church is NOT rotten to the core as you say. The SDA church is NOT the administration. I believe that the SDA church is the great body of trusting believers. They are NOT rotten to the core. Further, the leadership is not rotten to the core. There are many Spirit led wonderful people in leadership. There are also bad apples and a faulty administrative organization that is not able to correct itself. There is nothing I can do about this, and it isn't worth losing my soul over it.

As I said before, I can still go to church and worship; I can still study my SS lesson and teach when called; I can still sing the hymns; I can still witness to others; etc, etc, So even with the problems you detail, it does not prevent me from living a Christian life. And, please, don't let it prevent you from the Christian life.

Hubb

-------------------------------------

tom_norris · 09-23-14 10:16 am

Maggie Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 10:45 pm:

Hubb, what I said was not personal against you, and you do not need to defend yourself. I responded to a common SDA reflex to not rock the boat, which I don't hold anyone in particular responsible for. We're all in this together, even the hierarchy, even though I'm not in their church, I'm in the soup with them.

I have absolutely no doubts that you lead a fine Christian life, along with many, many others in your church, including my ex-husband.

There are also bad apples and a faulty administrative organization that is not able to correct itself.

Please watch this video, Hubb:

The Lucifer Effect

Best regards,

Maggie

-------------------------------------------

Bob Sheilds Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 10:53 pm:

Mrs. White speaketh out of both sides of her mouth. The following sure doesn't sound like the previous paragraph we read.}

"Let those who have become careless and indifferent, and are withholding their tithes and offerings, remember that they are blocking the way, so that the truth cannot go forth to the regions beyond. I am bidden to call upon the people of God to redeem their honor by rendering to God a faithful tithe."--MS 44, 1905. CS 96.3

"According to the amount bestowed will be the amount required. The larger the capital entrusted, the more valuable is the gift which God requires to be returned to Him. If a Christian has ten or twenty thousand dollars, God's claims are imperative upon him, not only to give his proportion according to the tithing system, but to present his sin offerings and thank offerings to God."--4T 466, 467. CS 99.2

Before It Is Too Late

"It will not be long before probation will close. If you do not now serve the Lord with fidelity, how will you meet the record of your unfaithful dealing? Not long hence, a call will be made for a settlement of accounts, and you will be asked, "How much owest thou unto my Lord?" If you have refused to deal honestly with God, I beseech you to think of your deficiency, and if possible to make restitution. If this cannot be done, in humble penitence pray that God for Christ's sake will pardon your great debt. Begin now to act like Christians. Make no excuse for failing to give the Lord His own. Now, while mercy's sweet voice is still heard, while it is not yet too late for wrongs to be righted, while it is called today, if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts."--R. & H. Supplement, Dec. 1, 1896. CS 99.4

A tithe of all our increase is the Lord's. He has reserved it to Himself, to be employed for religious purposes. It is holy. Nothing less than this has He accepted in any dispensation. A neglect or postponement of this duty, will provoke the divine displeasure. If all professed Christians would faithfully bring their tithes to God, His treasury would be full.--R. & H., May 16, 1882. CS 67.2

Of all our income we should make the first appropriation to God. In the system of beneficence enjoined upon the Jews, they were required either to bring to the Lord the first fruits of all His gifts, whether in the increase of their flocks or herds, or in the produce of their fields, orchards, or vineyards, or they were to redeem it by substituting an equivalent. How changed the order of things in our day! The Lord's requirements and claims, if they receive any attention, are left till the last. Yet our work needs tenfold more means now than was needed by the Jews. CS 68.2

Would someone please show me where it says in scripture that Jews were to either pay the tithe in animals and/or produce or redeem it with an "equivalent". Am I overlooking something? If it isn't in scripture is Mrs. White adding to scripture and for what reason would she do that?

}The great commission given to the apostles was to go throughout the world and preach the gospel. This shows the extension of the work, and the increased responsibility resting upon the followers of Christ in our day. If the law required tithes and offerings thousands of years ago, how much more essential are they now! If the rich and poor were to give a sum proportionate to their property in the Jewish economy, it is doubly essential now.--4T 474. CS 68.3

Were the poor to give a sum proportionate to their property in the Jewish economy? Please, someone, show me where this is found.

-------------------------------------

Tom Norris Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 10:35 am:

Irene Longfellow noted: Darn it Ron...I found the rule on tithing and church office. It's in the 1986 Church Manual anyway. Under the chapter on tithe... page 135.

Tom said: In the new, 2005 edition of the CM, this rule about tithing is still stated in Chapter 12; Gospel Finance. In spite of its oxymoronic title, this chapter is all about tithe (and zero about the Gospel).

Here the CM makes it clear that all church workers must practice tithe and set a "good example…in the matter of returning tithe." More than that; "No one shall be continued as either a church officer or conference/mission/ field worker who does not conform to this standard of leadership." See 164-65.

So it is still there, and the same point can also be found in the chapter about Church Elders as previously noted. This policy has always been active and in practice--but few knew it. The fact that many do not understand how the Denomination really operates is a tribute to the success of the SDA propaganda machine.

Up until about 1980, or 82, the leaders had most people fooled, but after that--not so much. They have been masterful deceivers all these years, but their time has come. Which is why there are so many angry former SDA's all over the place.

To be fair, I think the leaders deserve credit when due, and I think they have done an excellent job of deceiving millions of people with their propaganda. It's nice to know that they can do something right if they set their mind to do it? Too bad it has caused so much harm and wasted so much time and resources.

Irene sighed: It's a bummer but there it is. Thanks for helping me access the site.

Tom said: The SDA church is so wrong about so much that it boggles the mind. Their tithe-based hierarchy is totally and completely against the principle and fundamentals of the Gospel. No Protestant Church can be set up this way and the SDA's have lost their minds to think that an OC and Roman Catholic organizational system is going to complete the Protestant Reformation. This is the most ludicrous and absurd proposition that I have ever heard. It makes no sense.

Who in the world dreams up this garbage?

The SDA's have lost their minds. Their entire system is nothing more than a corrupt fraud, even as their theology has been reduced to chaos and their eschatology to cultic irrelevance. If ever there was an organization that needed to repent and reform--it is the SDA's.

Irene said: Tom, thanks a bunch for your thoughts. Considering that you are probably right on your observations of the church organization, what in the world can an unimportant person like myself do?

Tom said: Who said you were unimportant? Not the Gospel. Who knows what good you can do for the Kingdom?

For example, you can Pray, Protest, and Promote Gospel Reform within the Adventist Community. We can all do these things in our own way.

Thanks to the Internet, many singular voices can join together in order to move the Advent paradigm forward. I am convinced that had the Internet been around during the RBF debates, Glacier View could not have taken place. The facts would have come out then, instead of now, and Arthur White would have been ruined when he was alive to see it.

Irene asked: Go up the ladder? It looks like even you with your influence you can't get a hearing from the church. Have you ever been given an audience with anyone of importance?

Tom said: No billion dollar religious hierarchy that claims to represent Jesus, and speak for God, will listen to anyone. This is far too much money, power, and delusion for humans to handle. Which explains why the SDA's have gone fully and totally corrupt.

So there is little that any one person can say to such a wicked bureaucratic monster that will have any affect. Neither law nor Gospel can reason with such arrogance, nor can there be any negotiation with evil. At some point something must give. There must be a showdown. Perhaps it will be a legal case or maybe it will be a well-publicized campaign to boycott the SDA hierarchy and repudiate tithe?

So it is not one person, but many people that must protest the dishonesty and corruption of the SDA's.

Yes, I have had a number of high level meetings at the GC over the years, and I can tell you than many agree that Adventist Reform is needed-- in private that is, --because few want to risk their employment. So they do as they are told. But like I said, the system is so wrong and so corrupt that it may not be subject to reform. It may have to be completely overturned, and a new form of Adventism developed. This is what happened to the RCC. Those that correctly protested the false doctrines of the church were forced to start their own church. This is probably how things will work out for the Adventists unless their leaders repent and reform.

Irene said: A lot of members just throw up their hands and start another church which sometimes works but a lot of the times doesn't. Are we stuck? Is there no hope?

Tom said: I can't blame those that left or that tried to start their own churches. What else were they supposed to do? But the problem was that they failed to make the necessary theological corrections that were the root cause for the demise of the Advent movement. There was far too much ego and lust for empire building, and not enough study of the Word.

So the new so called evangelical SDA churches embarrassed themselves and their leaders like Richard Fredericks only made matter worse and more confused. Why? Because they had no credible eschatology, even as they trashed the Sabbath and the Advent Movement n the process.

What was the point in repudiating the Advent Movement? They came up with nothing better. Of course they adopted the SDA scam about tithe, even as these leaders set up their own little hierarchies to control.

They just exchanged one set of problems for another set. Little was gained and nothing improved. They wasted everyone's time. Even Dr. Ford had to withdraw his support from this confused group that had misunderstood the law and the Gospel, as well as church history and eschatology. (In fact, it was this collapse of the SDA evangelicals that triggered my Atoday interview with Dr. Ford, which has yet to be refuted by anyone).

At some point, those with the necessary gifts will step forward and start working to help the worn and weary Advent Movement come together. At some point honest leaders will stand up and move the paradigm forward, leaving the corrupt hierarchy behind. It is only a matter of time.

Irene said: Most of us, most of the time, give up. We don't want to make waves. We just want it all to work it's self out. We've afraid we will be working against the Lord and hindering His work.

Tom said: Those in religious power are experts at making people feel guilty. This is how they control people. This is how they sell tithe and the IJ, etc. Guilt is also a featured part of the RC religion. But this is all wrong. The Gospel does not make sinners feel guilty. It does just the opposite.

The Gospel is the point of the church, and it is imperative that this doctrine becomes the controlling doctrine for everything in the church. Whatever violates the principles of the Gospel must be repudiated. Which means that tithe is gone, and so too the hierarchical system that it has created and supported all these years. Tithing is totally against the Gospel, and so too Old Covenant Sabbath keeping.

So all SDA's are going to have to get over their guilty minded fears about the law. They must get used to the grace of the Gospel, because if they don't, they will never make the transition from the Old Covenant Sabbath to the Gospel Sabbath, much less find Eternal life.

The Advent Movement is a marvelous paradigm, but without the Gospel, it is a cultic disaster. Adventism contains critical information about eschatology for the entire church. But it has gotten way off track and must make major reforms quickly and correctly.

I say again; The Gospel is the point of the church, and from this doctrine all else flows. That is why it is so important for the Adventist Community to embrace Dr. Ford and apologize to this great man that risked everything to bring them the Gospel and tell the truth about the Three Angels Messages.

Irene said: We're just afraid we will cause trouble.

Tom said: Good. Cause trouble. This is what Protestants do! Protestantism comes from the word PROTEST. Which in the RCC world is synonymous for "great trouble." For those that understand the Gospel, there need be no fear of anything in heaven or on earth. Gospel Reformers are invincible and fearless, and you too can be one of them in your own way.

Matt. 10:24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.

Matt. 10:25 “It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!

Matt. 10:26 “Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.

Matt. 10:27 “What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops.

Matt. 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matt. 10:29 “Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.

Matt. 10:30 “But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Matt. 10:31 “So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.

Robert L. Shields said: While I haven't the foggiest when the time frame of tithing system was adopted by the church I do know that Ellen White put her stamp of approval on it through convenient visions.

Tom said: Ellen White put her stamp of approval on many things that had to be changed; it's just that the White Estate forgot to tell us the truth about all this. They said she was never wrong and thus she never had to change any position, but they were lying. She did not have doctrinal authority and her visions were not the last word on doctrine, even as Bible Study trumped anything that she ever said or wrote.

For example, Ellen White put her visionary "stamp of approval" on the Sabbath starting and stopping at 6 O' clock. But she was wrong about that point for almost 10 years, even as she admitted to misunderstanding her own vision and making the necessary correction.

Thus the Battle Creek SDA's learned early on that Ellen Whites visions did not have doctrinal authority. J. N. Andrews proved that Bible Study trumps Ellen White all the time.

So it does not matter that Ellen White endorsed this or that position about tithe, (and she endorsed a number of different plans), her viewpoint is always subject to the study of the Word. THIS is the real SDA position, and it is the one that I operate under. I repudiate what the White Estate teaches about Ellen White and so too should all SDA's.

Here is a quote from Ellen White that speaks about how doctrine should be viewed. She does not take the position that SDA's are correct about their views on tithe or the IJ or anything else. Listen to the real Ellen White:

There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation…

As we take up the study of God's word, we should do so with humble hearts. All selfishness, all love of originality, should be laid aside. Long-cherished opinions must not be regarded as infallible. It was the unwillingness of the Jews to give up their long-established traditions that proved their ruin.

They were determined not to see any flaw in their own opinions or in their expositions of the Scriptures; but however long men may have entertained certain views, if they are not clearly sustained by the written word, they should be discarded. Those who sincerely desire truth will not be reluctant to lay open their positions for investigation and criticism, and will not be annoyed if their opinions and ideas are crossed…

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. As long as we hold to our own ideas and opinions with determined persistency, we cannot have the unity for which Christ prayed. The genuine Ellen White.

Bob said: Today the church looks to her writings for their authority to continue this false doctrine. Where else can they look? Christian tithing certainly isn't Biblical.

Tom said: The SDA church has been very dishonest about Ellen White and her writings. While they claim to use her as an authority for doctrine, they have actually repudiated her most fundamental positions, placing false views in her mouth and horribly misrepresenting her to the church.

It was never the position of Ellen White that she would have doctrinal authority for the church. She never allowed her words to be used from the pulpit or in the SS lessons.

The post Battle Creek church has irresponsibly misused her writings for their own self-serving purposes. The fact of the matter is that her writings cannot be used to support tithe or the IJ or any doctrine.

I should note that Ellen White refused to endorse tithe as the leaders wanted. There is a very interesting story about this that SDA's need to understand. It can be found in Jerry Moon's 1993 doctoral dissertation about "W.C. White and Ellen G. White," Published by Andrews University Press. It's about 500 pages and contains the history about W.C. White battled with President Daniels to allow his mothers unpublished materials to become published as she desired.

It also contains Ellen White's refusal to make a hard and fast statement about the doctrine of tithe that the leaders demanded. She never fully supported tithe the way the leaders thought she should. And now we know why. It has turned out to be a false doctrine, like so many things that the SDA's have adopted.

Tom Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 10:41 am:

Bob said: If this were the only place Mrs. White blundered it would be enough to convict her of being something other that what the church has bestowed on her.

Tom said: The Takoma Park apologists were wrong to promote EGW the way they did. They were even more wrong to hide her writings and misrepresent what she was saying. The White Estate is a criminal enterprise. No SDA can rely on anything that they have ever published about Ellen White or church history. This is the real problem.

Robert L. Shields - Thank you Renie for your welcome. It has taken me a long time to get up the courage to write on this forum. One of my favorite friends is Hubert Sturgis.

Tom said: Hub is a nice guy, but he is a hardcore, Old Covenant, SDA legalist. He is not here to learn the Gospel or embrace Adventist Reform. No, no. He is here to try and defend and promote Traditional Adventism. He has been so indoctrinated that he cannot help himself. I don’t think he will ever understand.

When the Judgment Day arrives, this cultic and deluded TSDA does not have a prayer. All his many good works will be worthless because he refused to embrace the genuine Gospel. This is the only thing that really matters when it comes to salvation, and poor Hub has made the wrong choice to bet his soul on the wretched SDA's. Pity.

Hubert said: Is paying the tithe a New Testament doctrine? First of all, we cannot separate the New Testament from the Old Testament.

Tom replied: Says who? Of course this can be done; and it has been done by the church long, long ago. That is why the Cannon was formed, and why the Bible is divided into Old Testament and NEW Testament. This is a very great and purposeful separation that seems hard to miss. Besides, it's a little late for the SDA's to pretend otherwise. They have no right to revise history in order to try and make their cultic delusions fit.

Hub quoted some texts and said: These passages indicate that God expects His people to support the church.

Tom replied: Of course the church must be supported by the people, who else would be expected to support it? The question is what type of support system did the apostles set up? Did they set up a hierarchical tithing system? Or did they set up a doctrine of voluntary giving and sharing, along with a congregational and independent chain of house churches?

We don't have to guess. The book of Acts tells the story about how the church was set up and financed. And guess what? Tithing played no part whatsoever. Neither did the apostles own or control any of the local churches. They never set up a central church that was to be the "storehouse" for anything, much less tithe. The SDA organization, with its arrogant and outrageous claims, is a complete farce. They are so far away from NT doctrine and principles that it is stunning to behold.

I suggest that all SDA's read the Bible for themselves instead of paying attention to self-serving and delusional SDA propaganda.

The NT is full of information about the Gospel and the church, and thus it is easy to understand that the apostolic church did not practice tithing. The story of A & S in Acts 5 is proof positive that the church did not tithe. Thus, the doctrine of voluntary giving was given a dramatic seal of approval in the church. And Great fear fell upon the church when they understood how serious this doctrine was intended to be.

Acts 5:1 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,

Acts 5:2 and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?

Acts 5:4 “While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

Acts 5:5 And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.

Acts 5:6 The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.

Acts 5:7 Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.

Acts 5:8 And Peter responded to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?” And she said, “Yes, that was the price.”

Acts 5:9 Then Peter said to her, “Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well.”

Acts 5:10 And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

Acts 5:11 And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.

Today, the SDA church has "agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test." They have allowed "Satan" to fill their hearts "to lie to the Holy Spirit" and to promote false, Old Covenant doctrine in order to set up an anti-Gospel hierarchy. They are playing with fire, and there is no doubt that they will be burned.

Those that lie about church finances are in great danger. This is the point of the A & S story, as well as the point that tithing in the church is a total myth. SDA's should be thankful that God has overlooked their stupidity about tithe so far, but if I were them, I would rush to run from this foul doctrine that has no place in the church.

Those that claim God requires the members to pay tithe to the SDA church leaders are following in the footsteps of A & S. They also thought it was fine to lie about church finances and spin things for their own self-interest. But they were made examples of so that the church would understand not to play games with church finances. The SDA's need to pay close attention.

Today, the doctrine of tithe is a lie. All those that stand up and promote this fraud--in the name of God-- are fortunate that an insulted God has not struck them dead. Tithe is a wicked and false doctrine that was banished from the church along with circumcision and a separate priesthood.

Those that promote and practice it should beware of trying heavens patience. They will end up sharing eternal damnation with A & S; the poster couple for all that would defy the apostles about church finance.

The SDA's have lost their minds to think they can make up whatever doctrines they want. In fact, they are the world's greatest hypocrites because they attack all others for their false doctrine, but see no reason to remove their own self-serving delusions. Sunday Worship is far less sinful that what the SDA's promote with their grape juice Gospel and Old Covenant Sabbath keeping and tithing.

Matt. 7:2 “For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

Matt. 7:3 “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Matt. 7:4 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?

Matt. 7:5 “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

The SDA's are blinded by false doctrine and corruption. They have zero right to correct anyone about anything. They need to repent, not proselytize or defend their many errors.

Hub said: The details of paying a tenth of one’s income are from the Old Testament. To say that this is just for Israel or just for the old covenant raises some problems:

Tom said: Everything in the NT comes from the OT. The OT is the context for the NT. So this proves nothing about tithe. The only problem here is that you are trying to defend TA. So you double-talk and misstate the issues. Disgusting.

The TSDA's are despicable; they are just like the Circumcision Party. Paul could not reason with these cultic legalists and no one today can talk any sense to them either.

Pay attention Hub and all TSDA's: There is no such doctrine as tithe in the New Covenant church. It is an impossible construct that goes against the fundamental principles of the Gospel. It never happened. And until you learn how to read the Bible properly, you are a very lost man.

Tithe is an Old Covenant doctrine that supported the Levitical Priesthood and the Temple Services. After the cross, all of these things were swept away by the church (and then by the Romans). Judaism was no longer salvific, or even in existence after 70 AD, they had no priests or Temple after that time. This was the end of Old Covenant Judaism.

The church was built on Judaism and came out of Judaism. But unlike Judaism, everyone in the church was now considered a priest. There was no special class of religious leaders for anyone to pay tithe to. Nor was there a non-priestly category of people to pay tithe to the priests-- because all are priests.

So how can there be tithe? The concept does not work in the NT.

Moreover, while there was an OC earthly Temple or storehouse to bank the tithe, the church never had such a Temple or storehouse system. Why? Because the New Covenant Temple are those that embrace the Gospel. The people are the church. They are the New Covenant Temple.

1Cor. 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1Cor. 3:17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

1Cor. 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

2Cor. 6:16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
“I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM;
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

So the whole concept of tithe will not work in the church. Nor did the apostles ever try to make it work. This SDA claim that the apostles taught the doctrine of tithe in the early church is utter nonsense and fabrication. It never happened, nor could it ever happen. There is a very different system clearly established on the record for all to see--and it is not tithe.

Voluntary giving and sharing replaced tithing in the church!

Shame on the dishonest and wicked SDA church for trying to pretend that tithing is a Gospel doctrine taught by the Apostles. This is such a monstrous lie that it rivals the massive Sunday fraud that the SDA's make so much noise about.

Why is it fair for the SDA's to cling to their long list of false and absurd doctrines, but yet the other churches cannot? Such hypocrisy is hardly from the Gospel.

Until the SDA's give up their long list of false doctrines, including hierarchical tithe, the IJ, and their grape-juice Gospel, just to name a few, they have no right to complain about anyone else, for anything else. The Sunday Sabbath is not near as wrong as tithe, the IJ, and the grape juice Gospel of the SDA's.

Continued

Tom Norris Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 10:49 am:

Hub said: 1. The Christian church of today has become the Israel of the Old Testament (Romans 11) with all the promises and responsibilities.

Tom said: Wrong. The Church represents the Israel of the NEW COVENANT. All SDA's need to get their heads out of the Old Covenant. They are living in the past. Christians only live in the NC.

Hub said: 2. The Old Covenant was a short term affair lasting about six weeks and never supplanted the everlasting covenant.

Tom said: Wrong. The Old Covenant is Judaism. This religion correlates to the ancient kingdom of Israel, which lasted much longer than 6 weeks. In fact, this Country was recently resurrected and now holds a key place in world affairs. You need to better understand some theological terms my friend because you are embarrassing yourself.

Hub said: 3. There are some details in church administration for which God gave the church authority – which even heaven recognizes.

quote: “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:19.

Tom said: Wow! I don't know if you realize it or not, but this is the text that the RC's turn to when they get caught making up doctrines. They claim they can do whatever they want because of this passage…and I guess the SDA's have embraced the same interpretation for themselves.

But they are both wrong. Only the Word has any doctrinal authority for a Protestant. So it doesn't matter how high Rome builds their Temples, or how fancy the SDA graphics are designed, unless their doctrines can be clearly supported by the NT, it is all worthless nonsense and garbage.

Hub said: Here are some quotes from the Church Manual, 16th edition (the newest). A. “The gospel plan for the support of the work of God in preaching the everlasting gospel is by the tithes and offerings of His people.” p. 151.

Tom said: It is blasphemy to speak false doctrine in the name of God. Tithe represents Old Covenant law, not the Gospel. There is no such thing as Gospel tithing. Nor does the CM have doctrinal authority over anyone. The SDA's have made fools of themselves.

Hub said: B. “all are encouraged to return a faithful tithe (one tenth of their increase or personal income) into the denomination’s treasury.” p. 153.

Tom said: This is propaganda for the uninformed. The word "faithful" does not fit with tithe paying in the church because there is no such doctrine. Thus "faith" in Old Covenant law has nothing to do with something that is so against Gospel faith.

Those that pay tithe are not being faithful to the Word of the Apostles or the Gospel. They are misguided legalists that are taking positions against the Gospel. They are cursed for being faithful to wolves.

Hub said: C. “Although the returning of tithe is not held as a test of fellowship, it is recognized as a scriptural obligation that every believer owes to God and as one of the spiritual exercises in which the giver should have a part in claiming by faith the fullness of blessing in Christian life and experience.”“ p. 154.

Tom said: Tithe paying is a test of church employment and office holding in the SDA church. Only those that pay tithe can be a pastor or hold any local or hierarchical church office. Thus the SDA's have created two separate classes within the church. Which of course is forbidden by the Gospel. So the false SDA doctrine just goes on and on and on…

James 2:1 My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism.

Those that pay tithe automatically become the personal "favorites" of the hierarchy, elevated and placed in charge of all others. They are given status, office, and privilege because they pay tithe. This is all wrong.

Besides, it is blasphemy to promise blessings in return for embracing false doctrine. What kind of talk is this? I see this nonsense on TV where the televangelist --like Osteen-- is promising prosperity to those that believe his false Gospel. What a bunch of garbage. But the SDA's play the same game with this "pay tithe and get blessed" scam.

Hub said: D. “The treasurer should always remember that relations with individual members are strictly confidential. The treasurer should be careful never to comment on the tithe returned by any member or of the income or anything concerning it, except to those who share the responsibility of the work.” P. 62

Tom said: The treasurer is obligated to give such information to the pastor. Just as the pastor must blackball all those from church office that do not pay tithe. This is how the hierarchy controls the church, and weeds out those that are not loyal and compliant. Thus the church boards are made up of those that are the most brainwashed and manipulated, as they become tools for the hierarchy to control their blasphemous organization.

Hub said: From the above I would gather that paying the tithe is a responsibility of the member and the recommendation of the church.

Tom said: We see things differently. I think any one would be very foolish and stupid to pay tithe to any church, much less to the double-talking Gospel hating SDA church. On what basis do they deserve any money from the people?

Why should Adventists pay for false doctrine, corruption, and gross mismanagement? That's a bad deal. All the leaders and pastors should be fired not indulged so that they can continue playing church and wasting everyone's time and money. You can be sure that the Pioneers would clean house if they could, even as Paul would curse the SDA's for becoming like the "foolish Galatians."

Hub said: I believe it (tithe) has good New Testament support as outlined above.

Tom said: Hub, I can always depend on you to stand up and protect the hierarchy. You have yet to learn that propaganda is not the same as truth. Which is why you did not show any Christian paying tithe in the apostolic church.

You didn't give one such text because there is no such text in the entire NT. However, you need at least two passages showing that tithe paying was normative doctrine for the church, but you have come up with ZERO.

Matt. 18:16 “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.

2Cor. 13:1 EVERY FACT IS TO BE CONFIRMED BY THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES.

1Tim. 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.

Heb. 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

How can SDA doctrine be established on nothing? There are zero witnesses to the practice of tithe in the church. ZERO! Even as there is much evidence to show how the church was actually financed. Those that can read should be able to understand the truth of this matter, while those that prefer myth will carry on with their wicked delusions.

How can the lack of evidence in the NT lead anyone to conclude that there is "good support" for tithe in the NT? What kind of doubletalk is this? The TSDA's are not able to think or reason clearly. They live in a make believe world where things are as they want them to be. They are blind and cultic by choice.

Hub said: Also, as we pay tithe, God will bless us and more than make up all that we give to Him.

Tom said: What does the word "also" mean? As if you made a previous point that was worthwhile. You have made no such point. You are still trying to make one that will stick, and now you fallen back on this tired legalistic myth that amounts to bribery. Pay tithe in order to receive a reward. Pay tithe and be blessed with profit.

This is legalism, pure and simple. No wonder the SDA's love this anti-Gospel doctrine and have built their entire system around it? It fits very well into their Old Covenant confusion, even as it proves to all that they do not understand the Gospel.

Hub, you need to explain to me why you think God will bless you for following false doctrine? Why do you think he will be pleased with anyone that has supported a system that has deceived millions about the law, Gospel, and the Spirit?

You are fortunate that God does not view you like A or S. He made examples out of them so that the church would understand how serious this new system of giving was meant to be. But A & S thought it did not matter. They thought they could bend the rules and who would care?

The doctrine of tithe in the church is a man made doctrine. It is nothing more than an excuse to steal from people and control them in the name of God and Jesus. It is an old trick for mortal men to claim that this or that is "sacred duty." This is how the pyramids were built, and many other useless things that claimed to represent the will of the gods.

NT Tithe is a false doctrine. Period. It has no support from Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit. Which is why there is not one witness to this fictional doctrine in the entire NT. This is because it is not the duty of anyone in the Church, nor is it "sacred."

It is a colossal religious scam for the uneducated and gullible. Let all be warned away from this blasphemous fraud, and the wicked wolves that promote it.

Robert L. Shields said: Yes Hubert, Matt. 23:23 makes my point. First remember Jesus was born under the law. He was talking to those under the law. The Pharisees were bringing their tithe, not of money, but from the land. They grew their tithe. Never are we told to pay tithe in shekels. From this we glean that only those who grew crops or animals ever paid this tax.

Tom said: Correct. Jesus was not teaching the church to pay tithe in this passage.

Bob said: Now you contend that there is no break between the Old and New. That will make a great debating discussion at another point. If perhaps you are correct then those who believe in supporting the Levites with tithe should pay it as God instructed, not with money.

Tom said: How can anyone say that the OT is just like the NT? If that were the case, why did the Jews go berserk against Jesus, Peter, and Paul? Why did they repudiate the Gospel? The NC is very different from the OC and for SDA's to pretend otherwise is beyond absurd.

Bob said: Another point is that not all Israelites were farmers. Those who were not, didn't pay the tithe because they had no crops nor any animals. Your idea is diametrically opposed to what God ask the Israelites to do.

Tom said: Gospel finance cannot include tithing of crops or money. Which is why the apostles set up another method.

Bob said to Hub; Your church asks everyone to pay the tax. Yes, I say it is a tax because it surely isn't/wasn't given freely. It was part of the same law that SDA's claim ended at Calvary.

Tom said: This is a very good point. The tithe was a National tax, and it was meant to support the established religion of the State, which was Judaism.

However, the Levitical priesthood was banished from the church, along with the Temple sacrifices and rituals. Now everyone was a priest, and Jesus was the High Priest, in heaven. There cannot be two classes of Christians in the church, those that pay tithe and those that receive it. This is an abomination.

So tithe does not fit with church doctrine. Nor did the apostles ever try such a stunt. The SDA's need to repent for what they been teaching and practicing. It is more wrong than following the fraud about Sunday worship.

Bob said: Do you see my point Hubert? The New Covenant in Jesus gives us a much better plan for supporting the work of saving souls. It is giving from the heart.

Tom said: The Gospel is free to all. Consequently, that freedom must extend into the matter of church finances. Which is why Paul says that Christians "MUST" be free to determine their amount of giving. Our response to the Gospel must be voluntary, uncontrolled, and unencumbered.

Consequently, there can be no 10% tax, also known as tithe, placed on any Christian by any earthly, religious system. There is no such doctrine, and anyone that says otherwise is committing blasphemy against heaven, the Word, and the Spirit. In fact, the Gospel prohibits a hierarchy in the church, with or without tithe. Thus both the RCC and the SDA's have a system of church organization that is against the Gospel.

Bob said: Far be it from me to try to convince those that give 10% of their money to the cause of God that they should not be doing that. What I am concerned about is telling the flock that they must give it to be in Grace with God and the church. This is definitely a false doctrine.

Tom said: The doctrine and practice of tithe in the church represents very false and very wrong doctrine. Everyone should be warned away from this dangerous scam that empowers men to rule over others and thus control the church with false doctrine.

Anyone that claims this doctrine is "sacred" has cut themselves off from the Gospel, because tithe is a legalistic, confused, and wicked fraud that is the opposite of sacred church doctrine.

God has told no Christian that it is their duty or obligation. It represents a false Gospel in the church just like ritual circumcision in the 1st century. Neither of these Old Covenant doctrines can be practiced in the church because they are both against the Gospel.

Those that submit to the slavery of tithe paying, are separated from Christ. The Gospel will be of no benefit or use to them.

Read the following and replace the word circumcision with "tithing;" Then you might understand how bad this false doctrine is for the church.

Gal. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Gal. 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive (the doctrine of tithing) circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who (pays tithe) receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

To pay tithe is to enter into an Old Covenant relationship with God that is non-existent today. The Jewish God can only be accessed through the New Covenant.

Those that follow Tithe and embrace the IJ, thinking that their law keeping is part of the Gospel, are heirs of the Circumcision Party that made life hard for the apostle Paul. Thus the TSDA's are false Christians and Pretend Protestants, even though they think they are the best of all Christians.

Beware Traditional Adventism and any that embrace this very false and dangerous religion. Beware.

Matt. 16:6 And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

Phil. 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;

Continued

Tom Norris Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 10:56 am:

Bob said to Hub: We must differ as to what the Gospel contained Hubert. My understanding is that we are under the Gospel of Jesus and the Israelites were under the gospel of Moses. We can't serve both.

Tom said: The TSDA's have a very deficient and wrong Gospel. It is the same gospel as the Circumcision Party. It is a blending of the Old Covenant with the New, which forms a wicked and fatal hybrid.

Bob said: I will choose Jesus. He fulfilled the law of Moses with the over 300 laws and they were nailed to His Cross.

Tom said: Jesus fulfilled and successfully obeyed, both the ceremonial and moral law. His obedience and righteousness is imputed to all that acknowledge his death and resurrection for their sins. Eternal life is granted because of their Gospel faith in the mercy of God, --not by their law keeping or their faith in the law.

Eph. 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

Eph. 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Eph. 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Eph. 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Eph. 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Both the Circumcision Party and the TSDA's do not believe that anyone is saved without law keeping. They do not believe that JBF is all that a sinner needs to gain Eternal Life. They claim that Santification and obedience to the law is also part of the salvation process. They repudiate Paul's Gospel.

Hubert F. Sturges addressed "Tithe in the New Testament:" Hub said: Tithing was a system advocated in the Old Testament for support of the Levites.

Tom said: In Judaism, tithing was part of the LAW. It comes from the Torah. There were no other options. So what is this talk about tithe being "a system advocated" for the Levites? That is the wrong word. It was the LAW for all the Jews. There was no way around it. It was part of a religious system to support the Temple and the Priests.

Hub said: Apparently it was largely built on the barter system, and used in some cases for events that were specifically Jewish.

Tom said: Wrong. It was a religious tax on the state of Israel. The tithe was used to support the Priests who ran the Temple Services.

Hub said: Since there is no clear “thou shalt pay a tithe” in the New Testament does that mean that the issue was ignored?

Tom said: How could the apostles possibly avoid dealing with church finance? They could not, and they did not. They set up a system of giving and sharing, even as they repudiated tithe. If the SDA's ever took the time to read the NT, they would realize how foolish they are to promote myths.

Hub said: Are there principles from the custom of tithing that would be applicable today?

Tom said: Tithe was part of Old Covenant law keeping. It represents Law, not Gospel. It is the opposite of voluntarily, Gospel giving. So forget about tying to find some excuse to keep practicing what is wrong and false. Tithe is not a legitimate New Covenant doctrine. Period.

Those today that embrace the law, have fallen from grace. They have become like the foolish Galatians. The practice tithe is essentially the same as embracing ritual circumcision in the 1st century. It is not a valid New Covenant practice, even as it carries the double curse of Paul found in Galatians.

Hub said: Malachi 3:8-12 is probably the clearest Old Testament passage about the tithe. In this passage, tithing is an obligation, and those who do not pay “tithes and offerings” are “robbers of God.” Tithes were to be brought into a “storehouse” which is not defined except to provide (“meat” or food) in the house of God. This would indicate that tithes and offerings were to support God’s work.

Tom said: No one disagrees that the Jews were under a legal system that required tithe paying to support the Levitical Priesthood, and Temple sacrifices, etc. If you want to establish tithe paying, in any form, in the church, you must find the necessary apostolic teaching on this point. And this is what you have failed to do. Malachi was not an apostle, nor did he live in the NT era.

Where is the apostolic support for tithe?

Hub said: To specify one tenth of one’s increase as the tithe is a very fair system. There is no question but that the rich have much more “discretionary income than the poor.” But the promise is that those who pay tithe will be richly blessed. Maybe the poor need that blessing even more than the rich?

Tom said: Stop the double-talk. This is not about fair or unfair, but about understanding the difference between the law and Gospel. Tithe is part of Old Covenant law, not New Covenant Gospel. This is not an opinion, but a theological and historical fact. That is also why there are no examples of any Christian paying tithe in the NT. NOT ONE! ZERO.

Hub said: Some will argue that the church is corrupt, has become an instrument of Satan, is lead by greedy politicians and should not be supported.

Tom said: This was the position of the apostles against the Jews. And the Protestants against the Papacy. So it is nothing new, and very correct. Church history proves that the church has often gone corrupt.

Moreover, in the LM, Jesus says that the last church is the worst church, and that they have everything wrong. So who is going to argue with the apostles, Reformers, and even Jesus himself? Not me.

I know that if the SDA church does not repent and reform, they should not be supported by anyone.

Hub said: Some who take this extreme view are actually trying to destroy the church.

Tom said: This is what the Jews said about Jesus and the apostles. That is why they sent him to the cross because they were fearful that he was going to destroy Judaism. And that is also why they persecuted the church.

The Papacy also accused the Protestants of trying to destroy the church, and so they waged war against any that questioned their authority or doctrines.

The LM is also warning that the church will be destroyed if it does not repent and reform.

So what is your point?

Hub said: Some have taken the next logical step to establish independent churches – most of which have failed, and none have had more than a local influence.

Tom said: The first group to gain independence from their wicked religious leaders were the Christians. Good for them. This was the will of God. Thus the independent house churches of the 1st century gave birth to the Christian Movement. This massive movement has more than a local influence as you suggest.

The Protestants were also successful at establishing many independent denominations that still stand to this day.

So I don't know what you are trying to say, but it makes no sense. God was behind the many reformations that have taken place in the church. He is not pro-hierarchy as you assume. He is the opposite.

Hub said: How does God view the church?

Tom said: As individuals. When two or three come together in his name, that is the church. He does not view the church as an organization or denomination. Nor does he have any favorite denominations, except for the Jews.

Hub said: No question God is disappointed with the church. It contains too many unrepentant sinners and hypocrites (bad fish). But, the Bible pictures the church as the “bride” greatly loved by her Husband, Christ. Revelation 12 describes a “woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:” And remember, this is the “remnant” the end time church.

Tom said: Sorry, Hub, you need to read the LM. This is where Jesus describes the Remnant church. It is not a pretty picture.

Hub said: Was tithing part of the old covenant? This implies that the ceremonial law was part of the old covenant, for which there is no Bible support.

Tom said: Of course tithing was part of the OC. And so too was the Ceremonial laws and the Temple, and the Priests, etc. What is the matter with you? The TSDA's need to stop making things up. They live in a world of denial and myth that is astounding to behold.

Rom. 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

Rom. 9:4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,

Rom. 9:5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

Hub said: It also implies that God gave the old covenant to Israel for the entire Old Testament period. To say this is to say that God gave a faulty covenant to Israel. I believe this is a misunderstanding of the old covenant.

Tom said: I hope you are a better doctor than you are a theologian. You really don't know what you are talking about. The Old Covenant is Judaism. Both the moral and ceremonial laws are part of Judaism. You are the one that misunderstands because you are trying to make everything fit with TA. But it will not work; it makes you look like an uneducated and cultic fool.

Rom. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

Rom. 9:7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”

Rom. 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Hubert F. Sturges said: Paul discusses support of the church in a number of passages, none of which advocate tithing, yet none deny the principle.

Tom said: WRONG. Paul explicitly denies the principle of tithing and so too does Peter. For example, have you not read the following>

2Cor. 9:6 Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.

2Cor. 9:7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2Cor. 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;

Hub said: The principle of tithing is a very fair way to spread the burden of support equally among the members.

Tom said: Tithe in the church is false doctrine. Period.

So no matter how hard you try to sneak it in, it will not fit. The issue has zero to do with fair or not fair. Tithing represents Old Covenant, hierarchical law keeping. It has no place in the church. It represents forced giving--especially for those that work for the church. It represents "compulsion" and law keeping that develops two classes of people in the church.

Hub addressed this issue that “The tithing system also has a corrupting influence and encourages the formation of a hierarchy.”

Hub said: This is entirely a human supposition. It is true that tithe is sometimes misused. Does this mean that we should not pay tithe?

Tom said: It is a fact that SDA tithing has created a bureaucratic, top-heavy hierarchy that has persecuted the Gospel. The Jews created the same kind of system. Thus it was the High Priest that killed the Messiah. Why? Because a religious hierarchy and the Gospel are not compatible.

No one in the church today should pay tithe. In fact, when they do, it is nothing more than a public declaration that neither the tithe payer nor the receiver understands the Gospel.

Continued

tom_norris · 09-23-14 10:18 am

Tom Norris Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 11:10 am:

Hub said: Is a hierarchy wrong?

Tom said: It is absolutely wrong. If you have to ask, you are not a Protestant. Nor do you understand the Gospel teachings of Jesus. Pitiful.

Matt. 20:25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.

Matt. 20:26 “It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,

Matt. 20:27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave;

Matt. 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

In Christian teaching, the leaders are to be servants--NOT MASTERS.

So on what basis do the servants demand the tax of tithe? They are not Levites, nor do they have any theological advantage over anyone else. On what basis do they get to demand money and authority from all others? There is no basis.

Hub said: The Seventh-day Adventist church was organized in order to support the world wide mission effort, which has been quite successful because of following God’s plan for support.

Tom said: The Advent Movement was Protestant. It was not hierarchical, nor did it observe tithe paying. The SDA church was not set up as a hierarchal model. It became one over time as it became more legalistic. And tithe was the doctrine that facilitates this hierarchy that has now gone corrupt for all to see.

Moreover, when I read the LM, I don’t see any accolades for the SDA's. Did I miss them?

So who says the SDA's have been a success? They have been a horrible failure. Who are you kidding?

Hub said: The hierarchy of the SDA is much different from the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church.

Tom said: Wrong. They are both religious hierarchies. They both own and control all the local churches and the clergy works for them,-- not the people. They both claim to have doctrinal authority over their members and they both have extra sources of doctrine.

The RC's have Mary, while the SDA's have Ellen White. The RC's claim to be the true church and so too the SDA's. The RC's have endless scandals and corruption, and so too the SDA's. On and on the comparisons go, even to the point where the SDA's persecute those that bring them the Gospel.

They both make up false doctrine and promote legions of legalistic myths and traditions, even as they both misunderstand and repudiate the Gospel. They are very much alike, which is why they are both condemned in the LM unless they repent and reform.

Hub said: Can these things be corrupted? Yes. Have they been corrupted? To some degree, yes.

Tom said: Organized religion always goes corrupt. This is what happened to the Jews, then the Christians, then the Protestants, etc. This is the pattern of man. Power corrupts. Which is why the Founding Fathers set up the government the way they did. They knew that hierarchical models only ended up abusing the people.

Hub said: Has God abandoned the Seventh-day Adventist church?

Tom said: The LM makes it clear that the SDA church must repent and reform or heaven will abandon them. This is the point of the true Pre-Advent Judgment of the Church. Every church is declared to be wretched and awful, blind and naked. They will all be abandoned IF they don't repent and reform.

Because the SDA church has not responded to the LM, or to the Gospel, they are in great danger. Who knows when heaven will make good on their threats? It may already be too late for the SDA's?

Hub said: Is the hierarchy corrupt? A resounding NO!

Tom said: The head of the church disagrees with you. The LM declares that all denominations are corrupt and wrong at the end of time. The SDA's are not excluded. Sorry.

Besides, I remind you that the last GC President was removed for corruption, even as the one before that, Neal Wilson, allowed the White Estate to run wild and deceive the church about Ellen White and church doctrine, which in turn caused great schism.

The SDA church is a billion dollar disaster. It is a completely mismanaged and dishonest organization that has deceived and angered millions. Its religious product is so full of myth and false doctrine that few support this brand anymore.

Even the health message has been lost long ago. The SDA denomination is a train wreck. It is rotten and corrupt to the core. It claims to speak for God, and yet it speaks against the Gospel and persecutes any that dare challenge its hierarchical authority and illegitimate power.

Hub said: The ministry and the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist church are largely Spirit-led God fearing men and women. Is there dead wood and bad apples among them? Probably. It is after all a human effort.

Tom said: The leadership of the SDA church is as wrong as was Peter and James about the Gospel. They are laboring under the double curse of Paul to the Galatians.

Hub said: But I fully believe that God has given a message to this church that He purposes to be given to the world, and that through this church He is preparing a people to see Him come again.

Tom said: What is the message? To obey the law better? To practice Old Covenant tithing so that one can pass the IJ? The primary message of the church is the Gospel. The SDA's have failed to understand and embrace this doctrine.

This is their great sin that is destroying them for all to see. Unless they repent and reform, they are doomed

Hub summarized his pro-tithe points.

Hub said: I have shown the following: 1) The New Testament is based on the Old Testament. You cannot separate them.

Tom said: While the NT is based on the OT, there is a very great and necessary separation between them in every Bible. The words "Old" and "New"-- which are opposites, prove the point. Thus, every Christian Bible has this clear separation for all to see, and it is absurd for the SDA's to deny the obvious.

However, this is their specialty. They are the world's greatest liars and religious con men. They can't tell the truth about church history or theology, because if they do, their many false doctrines crumble in a heap. So they have to take these wild and irrational positions that try and manipulate the Bible to say what they want it to say. They are despicable liars and blasphemers for all to see.

So Hub is showing us that he is part of a legalistic cult; he is not a Protestant whatsoever, and neither is any SDA that supports Traditional Adventism.

Hub's mind is not his own, he has handed it over the Arthur White for programming years ago, and he refuses to seek the necessary help to free his mind and save his soul. So be it.

Pay attention all TSDA's: The separation of OT law and NT Gospel is a fundamental definition of the Protestant Faith. Those that blend the Two Covenants together are following the theological model of the Judaizers and the RCC.

It is a pity that the SDA's have repudiated the Protest Faith. But this is what they have done. They are not Protestant, much less honest. They are doomed if they do not repent!

Hub said: 2) Tithing is not ignored in the New Testament. How the tithing of mint and anise and cummin is made -- in goods or in coin -- is beside the point. Jesus said that "this ought ye to have done" shows His support for tithing.

Tom said: The text in question shows that Jesus endorsed Judaism. He was NOT imposing the tithing of herbs and spices on the church, much less circumcision, etc. The SDA's are making fools of themselves. They speak like the indoctrinated Mormons or JW's. Hub, you should be ashamed of yourself for allowing your mind to be so abused by the church.

All TSDA's need professional help. They don't realize how warped, confused, and illogical their minds have become. No one should doubt that propaganda, guilt, and mind control are very real in the SDA church.

Hub is a perfect example of someone who has handed his life over the SDA's. He can only see what he has been trained to see. Which is too bad for him, because those he allowed to mold his mind were blind to the Gospel. Thus the blind have led the blind into great trouble…

Matt. 15:13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.

Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

Hub said: 3) A reference to the authority Christ gave to the church is far different from the authority that is taken by the Pope.

Tom said: The RCC uses the false doctrine of Apostolic Succession as an excuse to make up their own rules and preach a false Gospel. The SDA's use the fiction of tithe as their source of power and spiritual authority. Both doctrines are absurd and delusional. But they both work to deceive in a powerful manner that is stunning to behold. They are both against the Gospel and must be repudiated by the true church.

Hub said: The church has authority to "bind" on earth only according to what is allowed by scripture. This is not authority to "remake" law as the Catholic church claims to do.

Tom said: This is true. So why have the SDA's promoted so many false doctrines that are not allowed by the Apostles? Tithe and the IJ both come to mind, as well as this blasphemous joke about grape juice being used for the Eucharist.

So the SDA's have nothing to be ashamed about when it comes to false doctrine? They have lots of it.

Neither the RCC nor the SDA's promote the Gospel Story correctly. They have each set up a false, hierarchical system to force people to believe lies that are against the Gospel. They both have legions of false doctrines and they are both condemned to hell by the LM if they do not repent and reform.

In conclusion, there is no defense for tithe in the church. There is not one passage in the entire Bible where any Christian is shown paying, receiving, or storing tithe. There is not one apostolic command or suggestion to pay tithe, even as there is opposing instruction and practice to follow another method of financing.

So the SDA's are wrong once again. They use the doctrine of OC tithing in the church more than anyone else. Their entire organizational structure is dependant on this false doctrine that has created an evil hierarchy, as well as two different classes of members, that makes war against the Gospel and the Three Angels Messages.

There is no escape for the SDA's. Tithing is so wrong and impossible that no rational or sane Christian can defend it. It is a false and dangerous doctrine that is against the Gospel. Those that practice it have chosen the Old Covenant law over the Gospel. They have been tripped up in the same way as the foolish Galatians.

Gal. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Gal. 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive (the doctrine of tithe) circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who (submits to tithing) receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Those SDA's that pay tithe, embrace the IJ, and drink fruit juice at the Lord's Supper "have fallen from grace." Their Gospel is false, and their hope of eternal life futile and delusional. Which is why the LM demands that the wretched and blind SDA's "zealously repent."

Continued

Tom Norris Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 11:23 am:

Irene said: Well, went to the church board meeting Monday night and the committee did what I thought it would. They stuck with the pastor.

Tom said: No surprise here. The church board has submitted to the authority of the hierarchy. They are committed to do what the hierarchy wants, not what the members think should be done, or what the Bible says should be done.

Understand that the Pastor represents the hierarchy that owns the local church. He is there to enforce the rules for them, baby sit the congregation, and collect the money. He is in charge of the local church on behalf of the hierarchy and everyone must play only by the house rules or get out. These rules make certain that only those that submit to the authority of the hierarchy, --by paying tithe, --can hold any church office or work for the church.

These are the fundamental rules that determine how the SDA church is managed and controlled. Which explains why it is so poorly managed. The practice of false doctrine hardly qualifies anyone for church management or a seat on the board. But yet, that is the baseline test for the SDA's. The blind are truly leading the blind in the SDA community. Which explains why the SDA's are in a ditch.

Let all understand how things work in the SDA church. There is no room for Reform by anyone, about anything, much less tithe--the most sacred and important of all SDA doctrines. Not even Dr. Ford challenged or spoke against tithe. Even though he knows it to be a false doctrine, he was trying to make a larger point about the Gospel that would lead to the removal of tithe as well as the hierarchy.

But the leaders knew where Dr. Ford's Gospel could lead. This is what they were really worried about. It was always about their power, authority, and control. Which was in great jeopardy if the Gospel became understood within the Adventist Community.

This is why the leaders took such Machiavellian actions against Dr. Ford. This is why they would not listen about the IJ. They knew it was only a matter of time before their whole system was exposed as a wicked fraud that is against the Gospel. So they tried to wipe out the memory of Dr. Ford and Glacier View so that they could continue to fool and mismanage the church. But they failed.

Dr. Ford could not be silenced, and thus the Adventists heard the Gospel, and now it has exposed not only tithe, but also a whole host of false doctrines that must be repudiated along with the evil and corrupt hierarchy.

The sad thing is that the truth does not matter any more to the SDA's. It is money, control, and doctrinal authority that they want. They crave an Empire to feed their egos; they need tithe to finance their wicked ambitions. If any Pastor dares refuse to pay tithe or to promote tithe, he is terminated. Because this is the most sacred of all SDA myths. This is the source of their arrogant and false power.

So the very fact that your pastor is employed means that he is an avid tithe payer. In fact, he has made a pact with the hierarchy to uphold this blasphemous fraud. Thus he is not about to lose his source of income over the fact that tithe has no apostolic support. Much less that your friend cannot afford it. That is just too bad for her and for the apostles. Everyone must play by the rules of the SDA hierarchy about tithe or else. SDA pastors work for money; the truth does not matter so much.

Irene said: My friend (who no longer qualifies as an elder since she is unable to pay a tithe) went with me.

Tom said: This is not an issue about "not being able to pay tithe." Rather, it is an issue because tithe in the church is false doctrine. One that has developed a corrupt hierarchy that is destroying the Advent Movement.

The primary doctrine of the church is the Gospel.

However, Tithe paying in the church is against the Gospel.

Tithe is the opposite of grace; it represents law.

So tithe is obscuring the Gospel in the SDA church. Tithe is a false doctrine just like the Sunday Sabbath or the Secret Rapture or Santa Claus. THIS IS WHY IT MUST BE REPUDIATED.

No SDA pastor really understands or supports the Gospel. If they did, they would not pay tithe to anyone, or embrace the IJ, nor pretend that fruit juice is part of the Lord's Supper. They are indoctrinated pretenders and hired hands, empty suits with large egos that have no knowledge of the Gospel.

The fact of the matter is that the poor in the church must be cared for before the leaders. This is what the Gospel teaches. But the SDA's teach the opposite; they say that the hierarchy comes first before the needs of all others. They have set themselves up to be taken care of first and always, and in so doing, have repudiated the Gospel.

Matt. 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

Matt. 20:25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.

Matt. 20:26 “It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,

Matt. 20:27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave;

Matt. 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

The pastor and church board have no idea what the Gospel means or how it is to be lived. They are blind guides…

Irene said: We shared our concerns about the pastor presenting the names of tithe payers to the nominating committee.

Tom said: Like I said, the issue is not about privacy, but about the false doctrine of tithe and its disastrous ramifications for the Advent Movement. The issues should be about how tithe is against the Gospel and the freedom of those that are in Christ.

Irene said: I mentioned some of the good information you guys had shared with me too.

Tom said: Tell your pastor that he is welcome to come online and try to defend NT tithing. I would be glad to explain to him how absurd and impossible this doctrine is. But I will understand if he is too busy. Tom Norris does not treat wolves very kindly, and I dare any of them to show up here and try to defend their self-serving heresy.

Irene said: There was some shock that this could happen and some discussion as to the privacy issue, the treasurer seemed shocked. He said he didn't know what the list was for when he gave it to the pastor. Said he feels uncomfortable giving out any information.

Tom said: This is typical. They always pretend to be shocked when people find out about such abuses. But it is standard procedure that happens all the time.

Irene said: In the end the committee would not vote on my recommendations.

Tom said: Of course not. They don’t even have the power to make such changes to the Church Manuel. While both of your motions make some sense, the issue goes much deeper. Tithe is wrong. It is false doctrine. It is not part of the Gospel or the church.

If the SDA's do not soon tell the truth about the absurdity and impossibility of tithe, they are doomed.

Irene said: When it came time to vote, all the members sat there with their heads down and the pastor, who was sitting at the end of the table, sat there looking over his glasses at everyone with his arms folder over his chest. HE HAD WON! My friend and I thanked them for listening and left.

Tom said: You had no chance. The hierarchy won before the meeting was held. They own the property and pay the pastor. They are in total charge, you, the member, have no say in anything of consequence.

Irene said: In the end, it's all about the green stuff (money) and not about people.

Tom said: It is all about false religion that controls the gullible minds of men and women. The SDA church has gone corrupt. The truth does not matter. Money is the driving force for everything they do and say.

Irene said: I don't know what to do now. I should just leave and find another church, but some of my friends are in that church (they weren't on the church board). Maybe I will stay away for a month or so and see how I feel.

Tom said; Every church and denomination in Laodicea has gone corrupt and evil. This is one of the signs of the last days. One that the SDA's somehow missed? So don't think there is a ready solution for any disappointed SDA. There is not. It might be some time until a new and functional Adventist organization rises from the ashes of the present disaster.

But for now, you should demand that the SDA church tell the truth about the Gospel and stop promoting false doctrine. You should demand that the Pastor repudiate tithe and anything else, like the IJ that cannot be supported from the NT. You should let the entire church know that tithing is a false doctrine and so too is a hierarchy. You should try to lead a reformation in the church over doctrine.

Perhaps others will catch on and demand reform.

At some point the Adventist Community is going to have to stop indulging false doctrine and the non-stop dishonestly of the SDA leaders. There is no reason for grown adults to allow themselves to be so abused, manipulated, and controlled. While millions have left, there must be a better strategy. The Advent Movement needs REFORM, not abandonment.

Irene said: It's always hard to loose when you are fighting for a cause.

Tom said: The cause of the Gospel was greatly facilitated by the many that lost their debates with the authorities. Thus the martyrs lost the battle but won the war and gained Eternal Life.

Matt. 5:10 “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matt. 5:11 “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

Matt. 5:12 “Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matt. 5:13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

Matt. 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;

Matt. 5:15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.

Matt. 5:16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Sirje Walkowiak said: You did good.

Tom said; Anyone that stands up to challenge the authorities over doctrine has done a good thing. This is what Jesus did, and so too the Apostles. This is also what the Reformers did. This is what PROTESTANTS do. It is the mission of the church to promote truth in an evil world.

However, you didn't exactly present the 95 theses to the church board, but you did challenge some long held tradition. Good for you! This is a start. But the issues run much deeper. The church is all about the Gospel, and tithe is against the Gospel. This is why it must be repudiated. It is the enemy of the Gospel.

Sirje said: Don't let this stuff ruin your friendships - then they will really have won.

Tom said: Act from Gospel principle. Better to be friends with heaven than with hypocrites on earth.

Luke 12:51 “Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;

Luke 12:52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.

Luke 12:53 “They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

Those "friends" that want to defend and follow false SDA doctrine, need to be replaced with others that don't.

Luke 21:12 “But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name’s sake.

Luke 21:13 “It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony.

Luke 21:14 “So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves;

Luke 21:15 for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute.

Luke 21:16 “But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death,

Luke 21:17 and you will be hated by all because of My name.

Luke 21:18 “Yet not a hair of your head will perish.

Luke 21:19 “By your endurance you will gain your lives.

Sirje said: Hold your head up high and do what your heart tells you.

Tom said: Remain humble and follow the Word. Follow the Gospel teachings of the apostles and do what they tell you. Don’t be fooled, your heart is not as reliable as the Word of the apostles.

Irene said: I appreciate the encouragement all of you have given me. It always helps to know there are people who have been there and know how I feel.

Tom said: Millions of SDA's have come to the realization that the SDA's are teaching false doctrine about tithe and all else. You are hardly the first to wake up and understand that things are not right in the church. In fact, you are a little late coming to the party because this schism started in 1980, after Glacier View, and as you can see--it still goes on.

Hubert said: Irene, I have been through some church problems and have come to this philosophy: Mistakes have been made, wrong actions have been taken. What should we do?

Whenever the TSDA's turn "philosophical" there is trouble in the land.

Tom said: What were the Jews to do when Jesus and the apostles pointed out their mistakes and errors? They were supposed to repent, reform, and embrace the Gospel. But they did the opposite. They dug in their heels, killed their Messiah, and attacked the Gospel. Let's see what advice you have on this point?

Hub said: 1. The church is not primarily about the pastor or even about the officers. It is about Jesus Christ.

Tom said: The church is primarily about the Gospel, as understood through the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

Those that misunderstand the Gospel, also misunderstand Christ, and in fact, embrace a false version of Jesus. This is what every Laodicean church and denomination has done, including the SDA's.

Hub said: 2. Even when you are right and the leaders are wrong, do not leave the church. You can still worship God, and that is what church is about.

Tom said: If the members have caught the church leaders promoting false doctrine that is against the Gospel, and the leaders refuse to repent, why should anyone stay in such a wicked and dangerous environment? Such advice would have prevented the formation of the church, and stopped the Reformation. Why would you make such an absurd comment?

Answer: Because you are brainwashed by the SDA's. You speak like an employee of the church.

Any church that refuses to correct its false doctrine is not a real church anyway. This is what the LM is saying. Those pretend Christians that refuse to repent are not considered legitimate followers of Christ. Any church that they control is no church at all. They are pretenders.

No Christian should tolerate, ignore, or embrace false doctrine in their church. Period. Those that do are as guilty as the leaders that promote this garbage.

Hub said: 3. You can still attend the SS classes and fellowship with friends and encourage them.

Tom said: Who wants to attend a propaganda meeting? What is the point? The point of church fellowship is to meet with those that also embrace the Gospel. When few understand the Gospel and the leaders attack it at every opportunity, how is this Gospel fellowship? It is no such thing. Wolves and sheep are not to be mixed any more than law and Gospel.

Hub said: 4. You can still help others and witness in whatever way you choose.

Tom said: Ha! Witness to what? That the SDA church does not understand the Gospel? That their leaders are not worth following or obeying? The SDA church should be ashamed of itself for what they teach and how they behave. They are doomed unless they repent.

Hub said: Bottom Line: Your Christian life and witness is very little impacted by the mistakes and wrong actions of others!

Tom said: WRONG. You speak like a fool. Hub, don’t you ever read the Bible? How can you speak the way you do? Jesus and the Apostles teach the opposite of what you are saying.

Gal. 5:9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.

Matt. 16:6 And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

Matt. 16:11 “How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

Hub, where in the world do you get your theology? It is awful. You don't have anything correct. Every time you open your mouth, out comes false doctrine and absurd religion. You, like all TSDA's, need to repent and reform your theology. You are clueless about the Gospel and the teaching of the NT.

Hub said: Please pardon my giving advice from the sidelines. I wish I could say that I have followed my own advice. In looking back on my experience, I wish that this is what I had done.

Tom said: Hub, You don’t know the Gospel, so your advice is worse than awful. You are not fit to instruct anyone about Protestant theology, neither is any TSDA.

The bottom line is that the SDA church needs reformation. Every doctrine and policy must be re-examined. Those that can't be established by the Gospel must be repudiated and removed. The fraud of tithe paying in the SDA church should be the first false doctrine to be stopped. Let all SDA's PROTEST and BOYCOTT this absurd and evil doctrine that has no apostolic support.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

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Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 9:10 am:

Elaine Nelson said: Hubb has totally failed to show that the CHRISTIAN church was ever told to tithe. The remark of Jesus was to the Jews, who lived under the Law of Moses.

Tom said: The SDA position about tithe has been proven false. There is no use for anyone to keep pretending that it is "sacred" doctrine for the church.

The SDA apologists avoid any discussion or debate about tithe because they know it cannot be defended. They know it is impossible to find any Christian in the Bible practicing tithe --because the church never embraced it. It is no more in the apostolic record than Sunday Sabbath or the Easter Bunny.

The sooner the SDA's admit this historical and theological fact --and repent for tithing-- the better for them, because they cannot go forward with so many myths and false doctrines in the 21st century. It will not work, and there is no sense in trying any more. This is why they are self-destructing. A Movement dedicated to Protestant Truth cannot prosper with the promotion of so much false doctrine and worthless myth.

The Advent Movement is dying because of all this doctrinal fiction and historical fraud. Tithe proves that the SDA's are a dishonest, corrupt cult, unable to understand the Gospel Story correctly, and not wanting to even try.

The leaders love this billion-dollar scam that divides the church into two distinct classes; the tithe payers that rule, lead, and manage versus all others that are to be managed and controlled. This is against the Gospel, proving that the SDA's need to be completely re-organized and reformed.

Maggie Bockmann quipped: OK, then, if Hub's goin' to hell, (for paying tithe) I'm going with him, even if by the miracle of grace I don't have to.

Tom said: The vast majority of people will not find the Gospel. Thus they will go to hell. Those SDA's that pay tithe, drink grape juice at the Lord's Supper, and embrace the Old Covenant Sabbath, have repudiated the Gospel of Paul and fallen from grace just like the foolish Galatians. They are not Christians or Jews. They are a cultic hybrid that will never walk the streets of gold.

Matt. 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

2Cor. 3:14-15 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;

Many professed Christians will be lost because they embraced a manipulated and false Gospel that cannot save. At this point, the entire SDA Denomination, and all those that support it, are in great danger because they have embraced "another Gospel." They are doomed if they do not repent and reform.

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you;

Thus the Judaizers will be some of the first to be turned away from the Kingdom, and so too the Gentile Galatians that they influenced to embrace a "distorted" Gospel.

But guess what? The SDA's represent the Judaizers. They are the modern day Galatians. Unless they repent, they too will be thrown into hell.

So don't worry, there will be far more people in hell then heaven. All the TSDA's will be there, so you will have plenty of company. Make sure you give my regards to Uriah Smith, Arthur White, and Froom, as well as to our friend Hub; tell them that I think they deserve to be where they are, and so too do I, but I have made some other arrangements that I find far more suitable.

Matt. 22:9 ‘Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’

Matt. 22:10 “Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.

Matt. 22:11 “But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes,

Matt. 22:12 and he *said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless.

Matt. 22:13 “Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Those that refuse the genuine, Protestant Gospel of Paul, and influence others to make the same fatal mistake, will not be granted entrance into the New Jerusalem. This means that all the TSDA's will be banished, along with many others.

This is what the book of Galatians is all about. Paul caught the leaders of the church, --Peter and James, promoting a false, law based Gospel. This historic confrontation explains the importance of properly understanding the law and the Gospel, and how easy it is to misunderstand the Gospel and thus to spread false doctrine and not even realize it.

It also proves that Peter was no Pope and that no church leader is above the Gospel, or anyone else. When a church leader promotes false doctrine, they are to be called to account by those who know better. They have no protection from anyone. They are to be cursed and shunned.

There is no "miracle of grace" for any that refuse the mercy of the Gospel. They are doomed.

Maggie said: Feel free to accuse me in the Judgment of being worthy of burning because I supported him.

Tom said: Protestant theology correctly teaches that we are all "worthy of burning." So this sad fact is beside the point. The challenge for every sinner is to find Eternal Life in spite of the fact that we are sinful and not worthy. Those that repudiate Paul's Gospel will burn, not because they are worse sinners then anyone else, but because they have no righteousness to save them at the Judgment. They have committed suicide by repudiating the Gospel.

Anyone so foolish to support the fraudulent Gospel of the TSDA's is automatically doomed. No need to announce it. Those in charge of the Judgment are way ahead of you on this point. The grape juice gospel of the SDA's will never secure Eternal life for anyone. Sorry.

Thus anyone that stands up to promote a false Gospel, whether it be the apostle Peter, Clifford Goldstein, or Dr. Hubert, is headed straight for hell, and the church needs to know it. Those that understand the Gospel have an obligation to condemn any that promote it wrong.

Do you understand?

This is what the book of Galatians clearly teaches. Let every SDA wake up and understand how serious it is to misunderstand the law and the Gospel. And let them also understand that their leaders have failed the Gospel and betrayed the Adventist Cause just like Peter and James did in the apostolic church.

This great Gospel fraud in the SDA church must not be allowed to stand. Both 1888 and Glacier View must be repudiated by the SDA's, even as they repent for what they have done and apologize to Dr. Ford. And if they fail to do so, they need to be condemned and cursed to hell in front of the entire church. This is what the book of Galatians clearly teaches.

This rule to curse those who preach another Gospel in the church is not something that Tom Norris invented, nor does anyone have any choice in the matter. This is what the Spirit teaches, through the Word. This is Christian doctrine of the highest order and importance. It is the sacred words of the Apostle Paul, repeated for emphasis.

Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

None are worthy of salvation, but only those that accept the gift of mercy will find mercy. They will be saved because they trusted only in the Gospel and not their works. Those that embrace a "contrary Gospel" will perish. Those that embrace a "different Gospel" from the one articulated by Paul are enemies of the cross regardless of their status in the church or their many good works. Their Gospel distortions must be condemned in the most blunt and strong language.

Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

Gal. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. (law keeping and tithe paying)

Gal. 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision (practice tithe), Christ will be of no benefit to you.

Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, (pays tithe), that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Many Christens follow a false Gospel and do not know it. MANY Christians waste their opportunities to learn the Gospel by defending myths rather than trying to understand this chief doctrine that alone can save.

Hub is a perfect example of someone who has embraced the false Gospel of Peter, thinking he has found salvation through a process of Sabbatarian obedience to the law. The Judiasers were also Sabbatarians, just like the TSDA's. And they were both very wrong about the Gospel.

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you;

One day, all the TSDA's will figure it out. However, it will be way too late for most. I think Hub is a goner. His brain has been so indoctrinated and damaged by the cult of Adventism that he can't reason or think clearly about theology or church history. His head is so full of myths and false traditions that he is forced to live in his own special world where spiritual delusion and propaganda override a crushing load of cognitive dissonance that constantly threatens to erode his world view. He is the victim of cultic overload; another sad case of a confused Protestant that has gone over to the dark side.

Hubert F. Sturges said: I'm sure glad that Tom is not able to implement his premature judgment.

Tom said: The Pre Advent Judgment of the Church has taken place already. It can be found in Rev 3. I have been trying to tell you about it, but there is no room in your head for anything different from what you have been taught. You must first clear your head of so much rubbish, and give the truth some room to work in your mind.

This idea that Dan 8:14 is the PAJ is laughable for many reasons. The LM is the PAJ of the Church, and thus Jesus has declared that the SDA church, (and all others) are blind; full of false doctrine and thus condemned if they do not "zealously repent."

Don't blame me for pointing out this dangerous situation to the confused and disoriented Adventist Community.

Don't blame me for honestly showing you that the leaders who teach a false Gospel are to be cursed, in public for the entire church to see. This is what the book of Galatians teaches. Thus, any SDA has the full backing of heaven when they condemn the church for the doctrine of tithe.

Irene, as well as all others, has a duty to protest false doctrine in the church. In fact, all SDA's should condemn their pastors for the promotion and practice of tithe; a doctrine that mocks the Gospel, and insults the fundamentals of the Protestant Faith. There is no excuse for such Galatian error in the Church.

Let's hear Paul again:

Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Sorry to be the one to tell you the bad news Hub. But given the choice between Paul's Gospel and your twisted version that is so much like the foolish Galatians, I will go with Paul, Luther, and Dr. Ford.

You are free to embrace the teachings of the Judaizers, the RC's, and Uriah Smith. But understand that Paul does not approve. Neither do I. You are a dangerous man, not some God fearing saint as you pretend. You are a nice wolf in sheep's clothing; indoctrinated into the dangerous cult of the dishonest and double-talking SDA's. This is all you know.

Here is what heaven thinks of you:

Mark 9:42 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I have no choice in the matter. Those that understand the Gospel have an obligation to defend it from the many frauds and pretenders that abound. Heaven takes a dim view of those that promote Galatianism, which is what you and the SDA church teach.

Gal. 5:3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, (or tithe), that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to (pay tithe) be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

All the TSDA's are doomed unless they repent. They teach a false, RC Gospel, as well as fabricated and manipulated church history. Let all beware these pious frauds that have bet their souls on grape juice and the White Estate.

Continued

-------------------------------------------------------

Tom Norris Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 9:20 am:

Hub said: Do I "bet my soul," you bet.

Tom replied: Too bad for you my foolish friend. You have lost the bet. Unless you repent --and repudiate Traditional Adventism, your wretched, arrogant, fruit juice drinking, Laodicean soul is lost.

Anyone foolish enough to wager their Eternal Life on the honestly of the SDA church leaders and the credibility of their confused doctrines deserves to be lost.

Traditional Adventism is for those that can't think or study for themselves. It is for eternal losers that live in a state of denial about most everything.

The SDA's have become like the Judaizers, so much so that even their leaders have repudiated the Pauline Gospel with great enthusiasm. But this cannot stand. The Three Angels Messages is a Protestant Paradigm. The present SDA view's about the Gospel, Judgment, church organization, and even the Lord's Supper is false and wrong. Unless they repent and reform others will complete the mission of the Advent Movement.

Hub said: However, I bet my soul on what the Bible says and in my trust in Jesus Christ.

Tom said: You embrace many doctrines that have no basis in the Bible. The IJ for starters, as well as this absurd idea that wine in the Bible is grape juice. This is what the SDA's do; they convolute this and that passage to prove whatever they want. But this is not a credible, honest, or Protestant, hermeneutic. The Pioneers would be disgusted with such behavior.

Tithe is a perfect example of doctrine that has no support from the Bible. The NT church did not tithe--ever. Nor is there any passage in the entire Bible that says otherwise. But the SDA's say they did. So lacking any apostolic or historical support, they just try to fool everyone by quoting texts that don't apply. They have become great pretenders, liars, and hypocrites.

No wonder they are condemned by the LM along with all other denominations. On what basis do they deserve a pass?

Hub has claimed that he has defended the doctrine of NT tithe--on this very thread. But all he proved was his incompetence and dishonesty. He did not come close to establishing the doctrine of tithe in the church, but yet he thinks he is justified to practice this "sacred" SDA doctrine anyway because this is what he has been trained to do. Such are the delusions of wolves. Lambs cannot think this way.

He is not able to understand how wrong it is because he does not want to admit his errors and accept Paul's Gospel. The scriptures would refer to someone like this as BLIND.

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

John 12:38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?”

John 12:39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,

John 12:40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.”

John 12:42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;

John 12:43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

The Bible does not teach that the church practiced tithing, or that it use pasteurized grape juice for the Eucharist, or that it taught the IJ. These are silly SDA myths that need to be repudiated and thrown in the trash.

But yet Hub follows all these errors, and many more, when there is no basis for any of these so called "sacred doctrines. So he is not following the Bible as he claims. Rather, he is manipulating it so that it can be twisted to support TA.

The TSDA's do not follow the Bible or the Gospel. They are fools that don't know the difference between the Old and New Testaments, even denying that there is any separation between the Two Covenants. This is blasphemy against the Gospel and the fundamentals of the Protestant Faith. It is madness.

2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

The SDA's are the modern day Judaizers, they have become like the foolish Galatians and Corinthians. They have embraced a false Christ to go along with their false Gospel, false Judgment, and false Sabbath. They are wretched and wrong about most everything--just like the Jews.

2Cor. 11:3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

2Cor. 11:4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

Hub said: I happen to believe that the SDA church is correct in their doctrine, and that is why I belong.

Tom said: I have people knocking on my door all the time claiming that their church--Mormon, or JH usually- is correct and true. These people "happen to believe" what they were taught as children, and thus their uneducated minds have been so controlled and misled that they have no idea about church history or Protestant doctrine. They only know their own cultic propaganda.

The SDA's are just like the Mormons and the JW's when it comes to mindlessly embracing propaganda and false doctrine.

So who cares what these types of people believe? Not me. Hub, you are not an apostle, nor do you have any idea what they teach. So what you believe does not matter, (and neither do my views matter). What matters is what the apostles believed and taught. THIS is what matters most.

Misunderstand what they teach, and you will fail to find the Gospel and thus lose your soul. Which is the point where you are at right now.

The only reason you "happen" to support the SDA church is because you "happened" to be raised and indoctrinated in this dishonest denomination. You could have just as easily been a great supporter of the Mormons, RC's, or the JW's, but you just "happened" to grow up SDA instead.

What good did it do you? Your Gospel is just as worthless as any of those others. Your mind is just as broken as the brainwashed Scientologist or Mormon. What a pity, because SDA theology is Protestant, unlike the Mormons, JW's, and others.

Hub, you did not study your way into this cult, using your own mind. NO; the minds of others brainwashed and controlled your mind and now all you can do is act out what you were taught and pretend that the SDA's are correct--no matter what. Tradition means more than truth to you and many others. Thus you are comfortable with your stubborn self-delusion.

What a great mistake to bet ones life on the confused teachings of any denomination, much less the SDA church. Who told you to do that? Not any apostle!

There is not one word in the Bible that gives any doctrinal authority to the SDA's. But yet, those that have been indoctrinated to pay tithe claim otherwise, as they try to defend what cannot be defended.

The SDA church has zero doctrinal authority to collect tithe or to claim that God gave them this Old Covenant doctrine and made the "storehouse" for the church. Anyone that thinks otherwise is very foolish and stupid, unable to read or comprehend the NT.

The TSDA's are brainwashed much like the 1st century Jews. They too were willing to bet their souls on a false Gospel and a great misunderstanding about their scriptures. They too lost their bet, and Judaism was destroyed.

Hub said: There is only ONE covenant of redemption. There is only ONE Jesus Christ who came to save. There is only ONE source of grace to change the life. There was only ONE covenant made between the Father and Son before Creation.

Tom said: Hub, stop pretending you are some expert about the Covenants. You are way out of your field-- as evidence by your absurd and convoluted analysis.

The topic of the Two Covenants is the most problematic, complex, and confusing part of the entire J/ C paradigm. It caused great debate in the apostolic church, (see Galatians), as well as in the RC church. It even destroyed the Battle Creek SDA's, forcing them to move to Takoma Park.

I can assure you that you are not even close to getting it right. Of course no TSDA can ever get it right until they repudiate Uriah Smith's view of the law and the Gospel. Here is the source for all that has gone wrong in the SDA church, and the sooner this is understood the better.

The plan of salvation was no accident or after thought. A major part of the Gospel Plan revolved around the development of the Jewish Nation. Thus the Old Covenant, which is Judaism, was part of the original Gospel plan of God. It was not a mistake, but the foundation and context for the Gospel Story. Although it was temporary, it was nonetheless important and necessary.

More than that, Paul teaches that the surprise shift from the OC to the NC was all part of a brilliant, and hidden, plan of God to save mankind. Just when the people of God--the Jews--were so beaten down and controlled by the world, another type of Judaism was miraculously born.

Thus the Church became the new method to enter the Kingdom of the Jewish God, and OC Judaism was replaced with a NC version, a "spiritual Judaism" which had no Temple, boarders, or army. Here was a new kind of religion that transcended Nation and culture in the name of the Jewish God.

Eph. 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

Eph. 3:5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

Eph. 3:6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

Eph. 3:7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.

Eph. 3:8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,

Eph. 3:9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;

Eph. 3:10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

Eph. 3:11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,

In other words, the church, and Christianity, was the new, reformed Judaism. The church--not the Nation of Israel, now showcased the wisdom, mercy, and will of the Jewish God.

Hub said: This was not the old covenant. The old covenant was a formal promise of the people to obey the law. It was not bad, but was faulty and lacking in faith. It is impossible for men to add or to detract from a covenant made in heaven. Like Abraham, we must "fall on our faces" and believe.

Tom said: Pay attention: The OC = Judaism. The Old Testament represents the sacred writings of Old Covenant Judaism. It is very simple.

Those who play games with the scriptures in an attempt to defend TA are making fools of themselves. The Old Covenant is Judaism with all its many rules, laws, and regulations. Period.

Stop with all the word games. This is what Uriah Smith also did, and he ruined the church with his cultic errors about the Two Covenants, and the church has never confessed or repented of this great error.

The New Covenant represents the Gospel teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. This New Covenant religion is very different from the Old Covenant that gave it birth.

Anyone that can't understand this difference between the Old and New Covenants is disqualified from this discussion. They do not have the pre-requisite knowledge to understand Judaism or the Gospel, and thus they cannot meaningfully participate. All they can do is waste everyone's time and make fools of himself or herself in the process.

Robert L. Shields said: Tom, the SDA's have been brainwashed into believing what they do. We are lucky to have been able to see Adventism for what it really is and escape its clutches.

Tom said: The entire Christian Church at the end of time is judged by heaven to be horrible, wretched, blind, and brainwashed. They have almost nothing correct, especially the Gospel, which has been so contaminated and manipulated that few have any idea how to understand this ancient, Semitic doctrine.

So it is not only the SDA's that are confused and wrong. It is every church and denomination in the land. There are none that preach, teach, or live the Gospel correctly. Because we are SDA's, we better understand our own problems, but I assure you, all other denominations are full of their own confusion, error, and schism.

Which is why the LM demands that all churches and denominations repent. None are excused, especially not the dishonest and double-talking SDA's. The SDA's should be at the front of the repentance line. They have much to repent about and make right. And they had better do it quickly and dramatically or they are doomed.

Robert said: Our responsibility is to present the facts and allow the Holy Spirit to move people. It is not to attack individuals.

Tom said: The book of Galatians is a remarkable and stunning account of how the apostolic leaders fell into great debate over the Gospel. Few understand the significance of this apostolic account, which has major implications for the church until the end of time.

One of the first things that stand out is how strongly Paul attacks those that are promoting a false Gospel. He does not pull any punches nor did he refrain from directly "attacking individuals." The fact that these individuals were the highest leaders in the church made no difference to him. Thus he "attacked" Peter by name, in public, and in writing, for all to see. He also attacked James and Barnabus--by name.

So Paul has set a holy example for all to follow. He did indeed "attack individuals" and therefore, this manner of defending the Gospel is the correct position and even the responsibility of those that understand the Gospel. Consequently, this claim that only ideas are to be attacked and not the person is dead wrong.

Paul teaches that "any man" preaching a false Gospel-- "is to be accursed." This includes Paul himself as well as the Angels in Heaven. Thus no human or Angel is exempted in this very strong statement. Not Tom Norris or Dr. Ford, much less Hub and the TSDA's. Not the Pope or Ellen White.

Do you understand? Paul is not teaching anyone to pull their punches when it comes to the Gospel. In fact, he is saying that any person--in the church-- who promotes a false Gospel is to be cursed by name.

Thus Paul refused to play politics with the Gospel. He did not care who liked him or who didn't, nor was he looking for a prominent position within the Jerusalem church. There was only one Gospel and he was not about to let anyone slander or manipulate it.

Consequently, he didn't hesitate to condemn the highest church leaders, including the brother of Jesus by name, and in public, for all to see. Neither should we be hesitant to condemn any church leader that is promoting false doctrine. This is the will of God and the command of the Holy Spirit through the Apostolic Word. Who dare complains?

Gal. 1:10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

Those that understand the Gospel are under obligation to tell it straight and curse those that don't. There are to be no other considerations.

No punches are to be pulled when it comes to the definition, articulation, and defense of the Gospel. Nor are there any passes given to those in Laodicean church leadership. In fact, they should be held to the highest standards because we know so much more about the Gospel Story today.

Thus Paul publicly condemned Peter for all to see. He attacked him by name, on purpose, with the full support of Heaven.

Gal. 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

Let this be a lesson to all. When anyone in the church takes a false Gospel view, they are to be identified and condemned by name, just like Paul did to Peter. There is no smooth message for any that promote Gospel fraud.

All the SDA's stand condemned for their wicked and false Gospel that they forced down the churches throat at Glacier View. Those like Hub or Clifford Goldstein, that try to teach their grape juice gospel of death, should be publicly condemned by name. This is what the NT teaches.

Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.

Gal. 2:13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Those that understand the Gospel have an obligation and a duty to oppose those that promote a worthless fraud and counterfeit. It is really very simple.

Thus we have no problem declaring that the church leaders, like Clifford Goldstein, Doug Batchelor, or President Paulsen are condemned to hell for their promotion of a false Gospel that includes tithe and grape juice and all manner of silly and stupid errors. All such hypocrites are to be treated just like Paul treated Peter.

Every church leader must be held accountable for their many false doctrines and identified as blasphemers and false guides if they do not repent.

The Adventist Community has the right and the obligation to stand up and condemn their corrupt and incompetent leaders for their false and self-serving doctrines--like tithe.

Continued

tom_norris · 09-23-14 10:20 am

Tom Norris Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 9:29 am:

Robert said: I admit that it has been years since Hubert and I were face to face friends, but I know people of character, ones who loves the Lord and are fine examples of a real Christians. Hubert fits that bill.

Tom said: I am sure Hub is a wonderful man. Many people say so, and I believe them. But does anyone doubt that Peter, James, and Barnabus had good characters? Were they not "fine examples of real Christians"? Of course they were.

But it makes no difference. When they backtracked on the Gospel, and fell under the influence of the Judiasers, they embraced what was false and wrong, even as they repudiated Eternal Life and started preaching poison. So Paul cursed them to hell anyway, in spite of their wonderful character's, many spiritual gifts, and high status within the community.

Those with good character are not to be trusted when it comes to doctrine. Rather, it is the bad boy Paul, that evil man that ravaged the church, that rescued the Gospel from the pious church leaders that had gone wrong. So forget this good character nonsense, many of the Pharisees that hated Christ where upstanding in the character department. Thus, good character means little. Hell will be full of those with good education, character, and religious sincerity.

Lucky for us that Paul was there to save the day from the good characters of Peter, James, and even the jolly Barnabus. Otherwise, we would not know the Gospel today; much less comprehend the importance of understanding the Gospel in such a precise, Protestant manner. Without the book of Galatians and Romans, the Gospel would be beyond the comprehension of mankind.

Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.

Gal. 2:13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Gal. 2:15 “We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;

Gal. 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Forget this idea that nice people must be correct about theology. That is utter nonsense. It was the best of the Jews that conspired to kill Christ. It was the pious and upstanding religious leaders that hated the Gospel the most, even those that revered the law of God and worshiped on the Sabbath--like the great Pharisee Saul. His character was so good that he had special privileges to attack the church and imprison those that embraced the Gospel.

Robert said: If he and other Adventists are willing to debate some of the SDA beliefs, I will gladly do so in the hope that it will plant seeds that the Holy Spirit will water and help them to finally cling to the simple plan of salvation.

Tom said: When it comes to the Gospel--there is no debate. This is what Galatians is teaching. It is what it is.

Was Paul willing to "debate" or reason with Peter about the Gospel? Hardly. There was no debate because the Gospel is not up for private interpretation or public debate. And neither is the law. They both have their roles and their places in history, even as they must always be kept separate and apart.

Besides, Paul had been given the Gospel by revelation and thus he was not about to change what he had received. So there could be no debate and there can be none today about the Gospel. It is what it is, and few understand it correctly because the Laodicean church has failed to tell the truth and embrace the Pauline Gospel.

But at the end of time this will change. The Pauline Gospel will triumph over Galatianism, even as mankind comprehends the full glory of the Semitic Gospel. Paul was positive that had had the correct Gospel, and so too can we all be if we follow his NT writings.

Gal. 5:10 I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.

At the end of time, the Laodicean Church will have to make a choice between the Gospel of Paul or Peter. This is what the Loud Cry of Rev 18 will be all about. The clear articulation of the Gospel and the repudiation of its counterfeit will shake the world. This is what will shock the church as they hear a Gospel that is virtually unknown, coupled with contemporary and credible eschatology.

Robert L. Shields asked: Hubert, do you not believe God made a special covenant with Israel and Israel only? Do you not believe He included in that covenant laws concerning how the keepers of the Sanctuary were to be supported? Do you not believe that the covenant spoken of in Hebrews 8 is a better covenant than the one given to Israel?

Tom said: The TSDA's cling to anything that will support their confusion. Every position they take is an attempt to support a long list of false doctrines. So they are not trying to understand the Word, rather, they want to manipulate it to support their absurd views. This is what SDA's are all about now; manipulation, double-talk, and falsehood. Pity.

You may as well have a discussion was a Mormon, JW, or Scientologist as with someone like Hub. The end result will be the same.

Elaine Nelson said: Robert, it's good to know that there are other former SDAs who have seen the light and that Christians are not bound by Law of Moses.

Tom said: Millions have left the SDA church because they correctly understood that the Moral law is not salvific. Thanks to Dr. Ford, millions have understood the Gospel better. Too bad that there is no place for Gospel Adventists to go. What a pity.

Elaine said: If one spends more time in the NT, which is the scripture written for Christians, while the Hebrew scripture is for the Jews, it is impossible not to become convinced that we are no longer to live as the Jews but walk in the light of grace and freedom that has been given us.

Tom said: The SDA's don't read the NT. They are indoctrinated on the pre-1888 views of Ellen White, which were very legalistic and wrong. We can all thank the White Estate for their massive propaganda campaign that has now backfired for all to see.

It is time for the SDA's to understand the Bible and especially the Gospel. Then they can go on to develop a credible and biblical view of eschatology for the 21st century. 19th century eschatology is worthless in the 21st century.

Elaine said: All of Paul's letters, and Hebrews and the other NT scriptures are written to the new Christian church. Most all of them were written after the fall of Jerusalem, and from that date forward, there is absolutely no record of the Jerusalem church (Jewish-Christians), but only Gentile Christians.

Tom said: Correction. Paul died before 70 AD. So all his letters were obviously written prior to that date. But you are correct that he did write to the Gentiles.

One of Paul's problems was the fact that the Temple was still operating, and this made it difficult for the Jews who were caught in the middle of a dramatic paradigm shift to understand the Gospel. Had Paul's ministry been after 70 AD, (which is impossible), he would have had an easier time with the Jews because their law and Temple based religion would have been destroyed by the Romans.

Elaine said: Paul outlines in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and Colossians his wishes and direction for the Christian church. There was no Christian church until after the crucifixion. It was founded by Paul.

Tom said: Correction. Peter and the others started the church before Paul was a Christian. In fact, Paul was a great enemy of the Church for many years, so how could he also be the founder? We need to keep the facts of history straight. It is the hallmark of the TSDA's to convolute church history, but those that seek truth must stick only to the facts.

Elaine said: Jesus ministry was exclusive with the Jews and he gave the principles in the Sermon on the Mount, but he changed not one whit of Judaism; it was Paul who gave new directions to the followers who later were called Christians.

Tom said: Correction, Jesus is the author of the Christian Faith. He did indeed make many changes to Judaism, which can be seen in the Gospels. For example, he reformed the Sabbath is such a way that the Jews decided to kill him for it. So this was a major revision to Judaism that facilitated his death on the cross. There are many more examples that could be cited.

Besides, Paul learned his Gospel from the risen Christ. Jesus gave Paul specific points about how Judaism must be reformed into the Christian Faith. Although Peter had been the first apostle to go to the Gentiles, he did not do very well, no doubt because he was too legalistic and Jewish. Many years later, Paul would become much more successful then Peter due to his education, temperament, and rhetorical skills.

Elaine said: The new church was born at Pentecost when all races were accepted; before that, no one could worship as a Jew until he had accepted circumcision--which was the initiation into Judaism. That is why there was such a disagreement with the Jewish Christians who wanted the Gentile Christians to be circumcised: Their laws required circumcision for anyone who wished to obey the Jewish Law.

Tom said: The transition from Judaism to the Christian Faith was very difficult and problematic for all concerned. This historical process is not well understood today, but it must become better understood in order for the church today to repent and embrace the correct Gospel.

Elaine said: Adventists have attempted to mesh both Judaism and Christianity with the result that it is neither fish nor fowl--neither Jewish nor Christian.

Tom said: The Judaizers were the first to blend the law and the Gospel into the Christian Faith. This is what the book of Galatians attacks. However, this "process theology" eventually became the RCC. They are the masters at blending Old Covenant law with the New Covenant Gospel. Which is why they have a priestly hierarchy where the high priest, the Pope, resides in a Temple in the name of Jesus and Peter. This mimics Judaism, as well as Imperial Rome, even as it denies the Gospel and sets up a hierarchical fraud.

The RCC was Gentile, not Jewish, thus they had no problem avoiding ritual circumcision, even as they embraced an Old Covenant hierarchy, complete with Temple, Priests, and daily sacrifices through the mass. They separated the ceremonial law from the Moral, keeping the latter, except for the Sabbath, which they changed to Sunday in order to distance themselves from the Jews.

It is stunning to behold that the SDA's could also fall into this same Gospel trap. It is amazing that the Anti-Catholic SDA's have embraced so much RC doctrine. But they have made the same mistake of blending law and Gospel as all those that have gone before them. Thus the SDA's have the same doctrinal pedigree as the Circumcision Party and the RC's. Pity.

Elaine said: Adventists select certain Jewish scriptures (while eliminating many) as being a requirement today, but in so doing, they negate the plain directives given by Paul who established the Christian church.

Tom said: Today, we have not only the history of Paul to consider, but also the Reformation. The reformers understood that the RC's had blended the law and the Gospel together. This is what they fought so hard to correct, and in doing so, they started the Protestant Faith and broke away from the RC Judaizers.

Consequently, there is no excuse for any Protestant to become confused about the law or the Gospel, as the SDA's have done. All this history and theology is there for anyone to see. It is all part of church history.

Elaine said: It can't be both ways, which is why their doctrines are so terribly confusing for a Bible student, and most difficult, nigh impossible to explain or rationalize.

Tom said: There is only one Gospel. And the SDA's don't have it. No church today is correctly teaching the Gospel. This is what the last Advent Message is supposed to correct. But the foolish SDA's have botched their mission to preach the final Gospel message to the world. They have become like the foolish Galatians. This is what must be corrected so that the Advent Movement will not have been in vain.

Robert L. Shields said: The great problem with SDA's finding truth is the writings of Mrs. White. Once they prove she can't be classified as a true prophet then the New Testament comes together and they can be set free too.

Tom said: The White Estate is the problem. Not Ellen White. When the Adventist Community finds out the truth about the real Ellen White, everything will change for the better for the confused and disoriented SDA's. But so far the leaders refuse to confess what they have done and correct the record.

David J Cadieux said: Wait till they find out that the Mark of and Image to the Beast is not about a day, but a system …

Tom said: Once the Gospel is understood and embraced by the SDA's, they will have to revise their eschatology in a major way. Which is a good thing because Old Covenant based eschatology is not compatible with Gospel eschatology. They are very different. This idea about Sunday laws being the major issue in the last days is absurd and impossible. Thus the Old Covenant eschatology of the SDA's will have to be revised and updated.

The failure of the SDA's to misunderstand Paul's Gospel, and to ignore his contribution to eschatology, has led them to assume that the last day events are all about obedience to the law and persecution over the Sabbath. But this is nonsense. The point of the church is not about the law or the Sabbath. So this cannot be correct.

The Laodicean Church has much to learn about doctrine and prophecy. At this point, they don't have anything correct. This is especially true for the SDA's, they are wrong on most every point possible. Just like the Jews, who also misunderstood most everything.

The Adventist Community is going to have to decide if they want to continue down a path of double-talk, deceit, and false doctrine. Every church and denomination is going to have to make this same choice. Only those that step forward and repent, determined to follow the Word and be honest with the Gospel will go forward.

The SDA church is wrong to teach or practice tithe. Period. No Christian should pay tithe to anyone, because to do so is to repudiate Paul's Gospel and ignore the teachings of Jesus about the evils of a religious hierarchy.

The SDA church must repent and re-organize itself in a Protestant manner. They have most everything wrong, and it is time to correct the record, re-organize the church, and update every doctrine.

Perhaps Adventism can rise from the dead and complete it noble mission to prepare the church for the Second Coming and the great time of trouble that will precede it?

Perhaps the Advent Community will understand that tithe is a false doctrine and refuse to bankroll a corrupt and blasphemous hierarchy, thus forcing Gospel Reform?

Who knows how this will play out in detail? One day, there will be a Gospel Movement so Spirit filled, correct, and salvific, that the prophecy of Rev 18: will be fulfilled.

Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

The only question is this: will the SDA's have anything to do with this final Gospel message? At this point, it seems impossible. But who knows? They may yet understand how to read the Bible and repent.

In conclusion, there is no such doctrine as tithe in the Church. It is an Old Covenant minded sham designed by those that do not understand the Gospel.

No Christian should ever pay tithe to any person or organization; much less as the fulfillment of "sacred" duty to God. Anyone that teaches such self-serving blasphemy, which is every SDA pastor, has fallen from grace. They are not Christians, but foolish followers of the Circumcision Party and the RCC that also blends OC law with NC Gospel. They are wolves in Sheep's clothing, Protestant Pretenders and Adventist frauds.

Today, the SDA church is based and managed upon the doctrine of Old Covenant tithing. This legalistic doctrine, which divides the church into different classes, even as it creates a corrupt, priestly hierarchy, is clearly condemned by the NT.

Consequently, the SDA church must repent for teaching the false doctrine of tithe and reorganize itself like a Protestant denomination that understands the Gospel.

Matt. 11:15 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

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Bob Sheilds Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 10:54 am:

Tom said:

"Hub, you did not study your way into this cult, using your own mind. NO; the minds of others brainwashed and controlled your mind and now all you can do is act out what you were taught and pretend that the SDA's are correct--no matter what. Tradition means more than truth to you and many others. Thus you are comfortable with your stubborn self-delusion."

Bob said: This is a well thought out statement.

You have written many truisms Tom. Now, for all of our benefit, please give us your thoughts and outline of what the New Testament Church should "look like". Give us some positives now that you have so eloquently stated the negatives.

I enjoy fellowshipping with Christians and so we do each week spend a morning with believers studying and praising our Savior. Scripture tells us not to forsake assembling ourselves together. This is a wise statement and we abide by it.

I know that not all the doctrines of these people are "Protestant".

I haven't been able to find any church that has it all together according to my understanding of Scripture. When in study a doctrine arises that I know is not Biblical, such as infant baptism and tithing, I ask for Biblical proof. You would be surprised how many agree that these are not Biblical, but yet the church continues to teach them.

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John Alfke Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 12:32 pm:

If tithing is just like paying the Infernal Revenue Service a percent of your INCREASE... as you can with the IRS, can you file with the church for an abatement, with an ammended return based on so much loss this year? and will they send back some of last years money? or did they already spend it on F-bergs helicopters?

either way, Along with Mother Teresa, I just hope whichever place they send those who have been awarded more deductions than income recently, and consequently might be behind on filing their church OR IRS returns, doncha hope there's plenty of ice there to cool the drinks?

I have spent a lot of time searching through the Bible . . . ......for loopholes. W. C. Fields

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Hubert Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 1:16 pm:

Robert,
Here is the ball back again:

Malachi records that there is a blessing in paying tithe. Is God fickle? No. That blessing is still there.

Jesus supported the tithe.

Jesus gave the church authority on earth, within the bounds of scripture.

Hub said: Your comment on tithes in the OT being limited to farmers and their livestock is unique to you. I have never heard anyone else use this argument (Though I'm sure there is someone somewhere).

I am not aware of anywhere in the OT or the NT or in the Church Manual that says that a person must be excommunicated if he does not pay tithe. Paying tithe is not put on a par with the ten commandments so far as I know. The Robbery mentioned in Malachi was not a reason to excommunicate a person from the Temple.

--------------------------------

Tithing was not a part of the Old Covenant

The Plan of Salvation was not ratified before the foundation of this earth, except in prolepsis -- acting as if an event prophesied for the future had already occurred. See Daniel 9:27. Jesus confirmed (ratified) the covenant in the midst of the week -- by His sacrifice on Calvary.

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Don Sands posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 5:08 pm:

I am not aware of anywhere in the OT or the NT or in the Church Manual that says that a person must be excommunicated if he does not pay tithe.

The SDA Church Manual says not to disfellowship a person because of failure to help the church financially:

quote:

Members Not to Be Removed for Pecuniary Reasons   A member should never be removed from the church records on account of one’s inability or failure to render financial help to any of the causes of the church. Church membership rests primarily on a spiritual basis. It is the duty of every member to support the work of the church in a financial way to the extent of one’s ability, but an individual should never be deprived of membership simply through inability or failure to render financial help to any of the causes of the church.   SDA Church Manual, pages 198-199  

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Elaine Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 5:17 pm:

When was the last time you heard an Adventist preach on Paul's letters: Romans, Galatians, Colossians, Ephesians? Had to read it myself and "discover" what had not been mentioned in an SDA pulpit or school.

The SDAs focus almost entirely on the OT and its laws.

Which is why I am a former SDA.

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Tom Norris Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 10:31 am:

Robert L. Shields asked: Now, for all of our benefit, please give us your thoughts and outline of what the New Testament Church should "look like".

Tom said: Through the study of the NT, one can see how the apostolic church functioned; how they were organized and financed, and how they dealt with problems. Even their debates about the Gospel are contained in the ancient apostolic record for our edification.

So it is not "my thoughts" that matter. Rather, it is the NT that must teach all Laodiceans how the 21st century church should be understood, managed, and defined at the end of time. It is the Gospel record, teaching, and example of Jesus and the apostles that must guide and control all church doctrine, policy, and behavior.

Bob asked: Give us some positives now that you have so eloquently stated the negatives.

Tom said: The word "church" is a Semitic term that applies to those who are called out of the world by the Gospel Story and into the Kingdom of the Jewish God. This takes place by faith, as opposed to works. Thus, all are assured the promise of Eternal Life, even as the Gospel controls their behavior and worldview, which is focused on the Second Coming.

The Gospel is the reason why the church exists. The teachings of Jesus, as well as his death on the cross and his resurrection created the church for the express purpose to distribute Eternal Life to all. To misunderstand the Gospel is to misunderstand the church and forfeit salvation. So the church has a critical, primary, mission that can only be fulfilled by those paying attention to the Word.

In fact, Paul said that if the church is divided about the Gospel, there was no use for it to meet. Such church meetings are for the worse; not the better.

1Cor. 11:17 I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse.

1Cor. 11:18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it.

1Cor. 11:19 For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you.

1Cor. 11:20 Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper,

1Cor. 11:21 for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk.

1Cor. 11:22 What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.

It is the worst of sins for the church to be divided and confused about the Gospel. But this is what every church and denomination at the end of time has done. They are all confused and wrong about the Gospel--INCLUDING THE SDA'S. This is why the LM is so harsh. This is why there must be wholesale repentance and reform in the church--by all denominations. (But we concern ourselves with the SDA's because we are Adventists. And because they are the most confused of all.)

The Point of the Church

There is no point for the church to exist if it misunderstands the Gospel and the teachings of Jesus. And the LM declares that all the Laodiceans have done just that. Which is why the Remnant church, which includes the SDA's, has already been judged as "wretched" and "blind." Thus all the members of Laodicea will be thrown out of the Kingdom of God if they do not repent and reform of their false doctrines. Their attempts to play church have made heaven angry.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.

Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

The church is only legitimate in the sight of Heaven if they have the Gospel correct and submit to the authority of the Apostles. The Laodiceans repudiate the Word and misunderstand the Gospel, and thus they do not have correct doctrine, works, or faith. They don't even understand the law or the Two Covenants correctly, much less the Judgment and eschatology. The Laodicean church--meaning all denominations-- has the wrong Gospel. And the SDA's are part of this large and foolish crowd that represents the spiritual damned.

False doctrine and hypocrisy are the great problems within the church today. This is also the problem with the corrupt and double-talking SDA's. They have a false Gospel and a false Christ, and one error after another piled high for all to see--even daring to drink grape juice at the Lord Supper instead of real wine as Jesus commanded. Unless they repent and reform, they are banished from the Kingdom of God.

At this point, their cultic attempts at playing church are worthless and dangerous, which is why they are self-destructing in front of our eyes.

So I repeat, the primary object of the church is to gather sinful individuals into the Gospel Kingdom of God and grant them Eternal Life. This is the greatest of all "positives." What can compare with such an eternal insurance policy that transcends the grave?

Thus, above all other benefits, Christians should "rejoice" at their individual and personal salvation, trusting that their names are written in the book of life.

Luke 10:19 “Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.

Luke 10:20 “Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”

Matt. 8:11 “I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;

Matt. 8:12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

However, there can be no rejoicing for the SDA's. They have no salvation, because myths are not salvific, and neither is false doctrine. Their Grape Juice Gospel of works, as well as their delusional Celestial Judgment, and Old Covenant Tithe paying, have disqualified them from heaven. None of them are saved as they so arrogantly presume.

Those who embrace such great errors do not understand the Gospel, nor can they credibly claim to be following the Jesus the NT. Heaven is not fooled in the least and neither am I.

Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

No wonder those that had a monopoly on this concept of Eternal Life, the RCC, made kings tremble? The promise of Eternal Life, preceded by the Judgment Day are powerful doctrines for mortal man. Thus the Gospel has universal appeal to the Gentiles, even if the law obsessed Jews could not comprehend it correctly.

In fact, the Egyptians had a Judgment Day and so too many others. It is the natural hope of mankind that there is something beyond the grave, even as the Spirit helps all men to know this eschatological fact. (IMO, the Gospel Story is the most articulate and credible of all such judgment paradigms).

Unless the Laodicean church can understand, embrace, and market the Gospel correctly, which includes the Judgment, there is no purpose for it to exist. The church exits only because of the Gospel. And at this point the SDA's have no reason to exist.

Building an Empire of false doctrine for the leaders to control like Old Covenant Priests, is hardly a reason for any Denomination to exist, much less the SDA's that actually had a credible and worthwhile mission at one time. The Church is first and foremost about the Gospel. This is the foundation for all that follows.

The Second Benefit of the Church is Community.

Following the Gospel proclamation about Eternal Life, the second benefit is more earthly and short term. The church provides a community of like-minded believers for support, protection, comfort, and encouragement. Thus the church becomes a spiritual Nation without boarders, a parallel and separate entity from Civil Government.

The local church is a self-contained entity of Gospel believers. They are a real and tangible manifestation of the teachings of Jesus, as they come together-- as a family-- in the Kingdom of God. They depend, not on outside support from a religious hierarchy, but on the spiritual gifts and financial resources available within the Gospel community.

Consequently, they took real care of their members, making sure they had food, clothing, and shelter. How did they afford such daily and perpetual expenses? Because they kept the resources from the congregation in the local church. They did not give their recourses away to those outside the local Gospel tent. They did not feed the homeless or those outside their group, as many do today.

The early church did not practice the Social Gospel as many assume. They did not feed the poor or shelter homeless that were outside their faith community. Nor did they pledge to support the apostles with a tithe. Rather, they used their resources exclusively to help the local members and take care of those that had embraced the Gospel.

Acts 4:32 And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them.

Acts 4:33 And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.

Acts 4:34 For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales

Acts 4:35 and lay them at the apostles’ feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.

Note that there was no tithe to drain the resources of the local church, nor did the Jerusalem leaders grab the local church property and try to micro manage and control the local churches. No, the apostolic church did not own any land or try to build a Real Estate Empire by owning any the local churches and controlling them from Jerusalem.

ALL the resources stayed in the local churches and helped the members. Only rarely, during natural catastrophes for example, would the church send funds outside of its community, but even then it was to help other local churches, not to build up a massive headquarters and develop an Empire for the leaders to ruin.

All the needs of the group were met without the doctrine or practice of tithe, and without a separate priesthood, like the SDA clergy now represents. All the local churches were owned 100% by the members. Which is the OPPOSITE of how the SDA's and the RC's have set things up. This is a great error.

Because the SDA church is a hierarchy, the member's work to enhance the Empire lust of leaders, while the local churches, which are controlled and owned by the hierarchy, languish in disrepair and spiritual darkness. There are no funds or programs to give anyone help with their earthly needs and thus the apostolic model has been disregarded and turned on its head by the leaders. Thus the SDA churches exist for the benefit of the bureaucracy that controls them; such a configuration is not Protestant whatsoever.

The SDA's are wasting their money by paying tithe and perpetuating this hierarchical sham. The present Old Covenant tithe system hurts people and deprives those who have real needs, even as it crates a hierarchical monster to abuse the people and make war against the Gospel. Tithe paying is madness in the Church. It could not be more wrong and false in the New Covenant.

In fact, the primary point of the local SDA church today is to sustain and support the hierarchy. This is why they exist. Every local SDA church is set up as a profit center that operates directly for the benefit and financial well-being of the hierarchy, which owns and controls everything. The member's needs are considered irrelevant, and thus they are completely ignored and subordinated to the never-ending lust of Empire building.

The Pastor is not there to preach or educate about the Gospel, but to control, indoctrinate, and keep the money flowing to the fictional Temple Storehouse. Thus wolves and hired hands indoctrinate the members, even as they are treated like children in a cult. The members could be starving and homeless and the SDA church could care less. The purpose of church is for the benefit of the leaders--not the members. The Pastors job is to motivate the members to serve and obey the leaders, even as the hierarchy places their never-ending demands for more tithes, more offering, and more free labor. And so it goes.

No one is really cared for in the SDA church. There is not even freedom of speech, or any way to hold the corrupt leaders accountable. Everything is all set up for the leaders, by the leaders; they are above the law and above criticism and investigation.

Why? Because the SDA hierarchy is not a Gospel Servant, but rather-- a cruel and legalistic taskmaster that oppresses, deceives, and misleads. Such a church model is Old Covenant, Papal, and against the Gospel.

The SDA's must repent and re-organize if they want to join the Protestant Movement. At this point in history--they are a stupid and dishonest cult that must be ejected from the Adventist Movement. Other organizations will replace them.

Mark 10:42 Calling them to Himself, Jesus *said to them, “You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them.

Mark 10:43 “But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant;

Mark 10:44 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all.

Mark 10:45 “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

The removal of a hierarchical organizational will allow the local church to return to the apostolic model. Thus the Gospel can become the featured doctrine of the church along, as God intended, and so too can it take care of its members needs.

So the correct model means no tithe and no hierarchy. It means that the members needs come before the leaders--not the other way around as the present wicked paradigm demands.

In other words, the local churches must be owned and managed by the local members, for the primary benefit of the local members. Period. If the SDA church can't understand this point, then that is the end for them. The Advent Movement will move on without them, just as the Christian Faith moved on after the Jews refused to comprehend correct Gospel theology and doctrine.

I repeat: the local church does not exist to take care of the leaders. Such a model is an abomination. The present SDA model is all wrong and will not work. Nor should it. It is condemned in the LM because it is against the Gospel.

A loving and legitimate Gospel Community cannot flourish under a hierarchy. It is impossible. This is why the SDA church is so cold and full of anger, pain, and great schism. They are so Old Covenant minded that they can't comprehend the Gospel. Pity.

Continued

Tom Norris Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 10:38 am:

Bob said: I enjoy fellowshipping with Christians and so we do each week spend a morning with believers studying and praising our Savior. Scripture tells us not to forsake assembling ourselves together. This is a wise statement and we abide by it. I know that not all the doctrines of these people are "Protestant". I haven't been able to find any church that has it all together according to my understanding of Scripture.

At this point, there is no church or denomination in Laodicea that teaches a fully correct Gospel. Least of all the SDA's. So no one should be fooled into thinking that if they only search hard enough, they will find a fully correct Gospel Community. Neither church history nor prophecy has progressed that far as yet. And the SDA's are nowhere close to having anything worthwhile that would be approved by heaven.

The church must first acknowledge its many errors and sins and repent before it can understand and embrace the genuine Gospel. There must be a mindset of repentance, not arrogance, before the Laodicean church will ever be able to find the Gospel. Repentance and humility must precede doctrinal reform in every denomination, because every church in the land has embraced so much falsehood and myth.

So stay where you are so long as the group is humble and teachable, subordinate to the Word of the Apostles. But if they refuse to grow and increase their knowledge, thinking they have perfect doctrine, not wishing to better understand or investigate the Gospel Story-- upon which everything in the church rests, --then move on.

Robert said: When in study a doctrine arises that I know is not Biblical, such as infant baptism and tithing, I ask for Biblical proof. You would be surprised how many agree that these are not Biblical, but yet the church continues to teach them.

The Laodicean Church is the worst of all church periods. At the end of time, in spite of so much knowledge about the ancient world and theology, every church and denomination is overwhelmed with false doctrine, tradition, and myth. Most have no idea how to correctly articulate the Gospel, much less eschatology or anything else, nor do they care. The blind are leading the blind.

2Tim. 3:1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.

2Tim. 3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,

2Tim. 3:3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,

2Tim. 3:4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

2Tim. 3:5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

Thus legions of false doctrines are being taught and practiced in all churches. The SDA's are not alone in having most everything wrong. Everyone else in the religious marketplace is also clueless. The LM is correct to condemn every church at the end of time. As we open our eyes and survey the situation, what was once prophecy is now a living reality and fulfilled prophecy.

2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

Moreover, this SDA myth that the last church is going to be the best church is dispelled by the LM, as well as the empirical evidence that surrounds us. The last church is the worst church. Which is why every church in the land must REPENT in order to maintain their connection with heaven. Those that refuse will be doomed.

Robert L. Shields said: Here you have boughten into the Adventist koolade about the RCC changing the Sabbath to Sunday.

Tom said: While the SDA's have much error and false doctrine, --even misunderstanding the history of the Reformation as well as their own Movement, --they are not wrong to protest the Sunday Sabbath and call it a fraud.

Few understand that in 19th century America, the Protestants launched a highly visible campaign to promote the Sunday Sabbath. The SDA's were correct to fight this utter nonsense that also threatened the very principles upon which the US was founded.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ay-Law.htm

As for Sunday worship in the church; it was the Church Fathers that made this official change. Irenaeus to be specific. History is clear about this. It was not the SDA's that distinguished the Ceremonial law from the Moral Law. It was the Church Fathers.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm

But regardless, the RCC supports Sunday Sacredness. Here is an official paper about this from the Vatican. It is a most confused and dishonest document that reeks with double-talk, as well as false history and deliberate myth.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_ … ni_en.html

Robert said: Long before the RCC was established the early church came together on Sunday. There are records of this happening in the first century.

Tom said: There is no question that Sunday came into the Gentile church much earlier than the SDA's claimed. But so what? The error of ritual Circumcision came in much earlier than Sunday sacredness; it was there from the very beginning of the church, even as the book of Acts and Galatians records these heated, 1st century debates.

Does the early date of ritual circumcision in the church make such false doctrine valid? Hardly. So it makes no difference if Sunday came into the church in the late 1st century or later. By that time, there were all manner of errors being associated with the church.

The fact that some 1st century Gentiles were starting to replace the Jewish Sabbath with Sunday changes nothing and proves nothing about Sunday Sacredness because Gentiles have no standing to create doctrine for the church. Only Jesus and the Jewish apostles have such authority.

Consequently, there must be some apostolic instruction to create credible doctrine for the church, but there is nothing to support Sunday sacredness in the NT. Why? Because the (Jewish) Apostles never heard of such a doctrine, much less promoted it.

Sunday sacredness is the invention of the Gentile Christians. No Jewish Christian would ever pay any attention to such an anti-Semitic doctrine that has no support from the OT or the NT

In fact, we know this because it was the Jewish Christians that were obsessed with the Moral law as well as with Circumcision and Judaism. Consequently, there is zero chance that any Jewish Christian would embrace Sunday sacredness without a great protest. It would have been impossible for them to do such a thing and none of them did. Had there been such a change in the Sabbath, it would have created a great uproar, eclipsing the debate about circumcision that is featured in Galatians.

The Apostolic, (Jewish), Church never embraced a Sunday Sabbath, much less taught this doctrine at any time. Which is why the Jewish Apostles made no mention of this phantom doctrine that did not exist in the church any more than tithing or the Easter Bunny. Nor could such a change take place without a huge outcry from the Jews.

In fact, the Judaizers went wild because Paul banished ritual circumcision and subordinated the Moral law to Faith in Christ for Justification. What do you think they would have done if Paul taught that the Sabbath was being replaced by Sunday in the church?

So where is the debate about changing the Sabbath to Sunday? Where is it?

There is no such record because there was no such debate or doctrine in the apostolic church. It never happened until after the Romans destroyed Judaism and the Gentile Church gained control of the Christian Movement.

I repeat: If there had been an official and approved change from Saturday to Sunday during the apostolic church, there would have been a record of that change in the NT. But there is no such change, nor is there any record like there was about Circumcision. Which means that it never happened. There is no Sunday doctrine in the apostolic church and that means--for every Protestant-- that it can never be there.

Sunday Sacredness is a fraud. Period. There is not one passage in the Bible about the sacredness of Sunday, and thus this doctrine is a total and complete fraud, regardless who invented it, or how early this error came into the church, or who supports it today.

Robert said: John speaks of the Lord's Day.

Tom replied: John does indeed speak of the Lord's Day in the book of Revelation, which was written at the end of the 1st century. But John was a Jew, and thus there is no possibility that this phrase can be referring to Sunday. There is no Semitic basis for Sunday. Such an interpretation is a Gentile delusion. It is wishful thinking based on impossible hermeneutics and fabricated, anti-Semetic church history.

The Lord's Day, in Revelation, is code for the Gospel Sabbath that Jesus reformed and defended in the Gospels. Nothing more. Without any support from his fellow apostles, who were also Jewish, and absent any debate in the record of a change to Sunday Sacredness, the only possible interpretation must be the 7th day, not the 1st.

In fact, this phrase in Revelation correlates to Jesus claim to be the Lord of the Reformed, New Covenant Sabbath. It is no reference to Sunday, nor is any such assumption warranted. Jesus is Lord, and he teaches and defines the Gospel Sabbath for the church. He is Lord of the Sabbath. It is his special day, the Lord's Day. John knew this fact because he witnessed the Sabbath debates between Jesus and the Pharisees.

Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,

Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”

Matt. 12:3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions,

Matt. 12:4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?

Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

Matt. 12:7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.

Jesus did not declare himself Lord of the Sunday Sabbath, or even of the Old Covenant Sabbath of Moses. His views of the Sabbath were very different from what all Jews were observing, and thus no one can say he was defending the status quo. He was not. He was articulating a very different Sabbath, even the Gospel Sabbath for the church. But the Jews hated the Gospel and this new Gospel Sabbath, which is why they killed their Christ.

Sunday Sacredness is not part of the Gospel Story. In fact, the same apostle that coined the phrase "Lord's Day," is also the one that witnessed and chronicled Jesus Sabbath debates. Thus John wrote much about the reformed Sabbath of Jesus and zero about Sunday Sacredness.

John 5:10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.

John's frame of reference is not only Jewish, but it also comes from his direct association with the Messiah. Who taught much about a reformed Gospel Sabbath, and nothing about Sunday Sacredness, which did not exist when Jesus was here on earth. With this in mind, how can John, all of a sudden, at the end of his life, make a reference to Sunday Sacredness? He had never made any such reference in his other writings. And thus there is no evidence to make any such claim for Sunday in the book of Revelation.

It is absurd for anyone to claim that John's reference to the Lord's Day, means Sunday. This is an historically impossible reading. John was only speaking of the REFORMED, 7th Day Sabbath of the Lord Jesus. There were no other options.

While there was great debate over the Sabbath in the Gospels, even "division" about how Jesus was interpreting this special doctrine, there are no references or debates about a change from Saturday to Sunday. Why? Because it never happened. A Sunday Sabbath for the church is a complete and total fraud. Which means that there is a REFORMED, New Covenant Sabbath for the Laodicean church to discover and embrace.

Heb. 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Heb. 4:10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

Continued

tom_norris · 09-23-14 10:23 am

Tom Norris Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 10:43 am:

Robert said: Paul wrote in Romans 14:5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Tom replied: First off, Jesus is the head of the church--not Paul.

Jesus claimed to be the Lord of the Sabbath--not Paul. Even as Jesus reformed the Sabbath and made it into something very different from what all Jews, including Paul, had been taught. Which means that Christians follow Christ, not Paul.

If there is a Sabbath doctrine for the church, it must come to us directly through the teachings and example of Jesus in the Gospels--not from Paul or anyone else. Paul is not the Lord of the Sabbath, that title goes to Jesus, the head and savior of the church.

Consequently, no one should use Paul to try and negate the teachings of Jesus. Paul is subordinate to the doctrinal authority of Jesus at all times. Nor did Paul claim to be an expert of the Sabbath.

The church is going to have to study the teachings of Jesus, as well as the rest of the NT to comprehend the Gospel Sabbath; and when they do, the fraud of Sunday will be exposed, along with the Old Covenant Sabbath of the SDA's.

2nd: Paul was not against the Moral law as many think. He was a Jew. However, because the Judaizers were promoting law keeping and Santification as part of the Gospel, Paul had to push back. So the last thing he wanted to do was promote Old Covenant Sabbath keeping to the Gentiles, which he never did.

However, he does demonstrate his awareness of the Reformed Sabbath as he purposefully preaches the Gospel to the Gentiles on the Sabbath day. Why did he do that if Sunday Sacredness was now the New Sabbath for the church?

Acts 13:42 As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.

Acts 13:44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.

Paul never acknowledges Sunday sacredness, nor shows any familiarity with this dubious doctrine. In fact, he publicly acknowledges the Sabbath to the Gentiles and uses this day to preach and teach them the Gospel. Thus Paul used the Sabbath to interact with the Gentiles, without any Old covenant restraints being imposed or mentioned. This shows his understanding of the Reformed Sabbath of Jesus that would soon fade from history. It also proves that Paul knows nothing about a Sunday Sabbath.

As for Romans 14; Note that Paul is writing to the Gentiles in Rome, not to the Hebrews in Jerusalem. So the context of this discussion is from the viewpoint of the Gentiles-- not the Jews.

Also note that the word Sabbath is not even mentioned, nor is the subject about how the Hebrew God looked at the Sabbath, but rather how "men" looked at some special days that have no theological validity.

So this passage is not about how God looks at the Sabbath, but rather about the "opinions" of some regarding religious days as well as the associated issues concerning food laws and the immaturity of faith.

Rom. 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

In other words the context does not support the assumption that Paul is talking about the weekly Seventh-day Sabbath of the Jews, nor the Reformed New Covenant Sabbath of Jesus. He is addressing the "opinions" of men.

It is not possible that Paul would be so cavalier with the Law as to let "each person" determine his or her own behavior and interpretation. Such language from Paul is a dead giveaway that the topic here is not the law of God or the weekly Seventh-day Sabbath. One needs only to read one sentence from Paul to the Corinthians to see that he was not one to ignore or dismiss the Moral law.

1Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

In fact, the real issue is about admitting new converts into the church, even though they did not fully or correctly understand Christian theology. The Law of God was not under discussion or debate.

Rom. 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.

Rom. 14:2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.

Rom. 14:3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.

Rom. 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Rom. 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

Paul wanted those weak and immature in the Gospel faith to have room to grow in the church. They were not to be shown up and embarrassed by the more mature Gospel believers who knew better than to think that food regulations or any kind of feast days were salvific.

Rom. 14:13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.

Rom. 14:14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Rom. 14:15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.

Rom. 14:16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;

Rom. 15:7 Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God.

This discussion is not about the Sabbath, or the Law of God, but about the myths and "opinions" that some Gospel believers held, and how they were to be handled without discouraging the new and immature Gospel believers.

Rom. 15:5 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,

Rom. 15:6 so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom. 15:7 Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/3293.html

Robert said: The writer of Hebrews tells us that our rest is now in Jesus not a day. Jesus told us that we should come to Him for our rest and He will give it to us.

Tom said: There is no salvation in the Sabbath, or in any law. And no Protestant should say otherwise. So this is beside the point. The question is whether there is a Gospel Sabbath for the Church? And if so what does it look like?

The RCC correctly claims that there is a weekly Sabbath for the church, but then they claim it is Sunday. But this is impossible. There is a weekly Sabbath for the Church, but it is only on the 7th day, and it is to be interpreted and understood through the REFORMED Sabbath teachings of Jesus that are found in the Gospels.

So there is no question or debate that the church needs and has embraced a weekly Sabbath. This is a fact of history. The question is whether they have the correct Gospel Sabbath?

They do not. No church today has either the correct Gospel or the correct Gospel Sabbath. The SDA's were supposed to correct this great error, but they have failed in their mission, grasping the wrong Sabbath and condemning themselves in the process.

Robert said: The RCC would like to make that claim and the SDA's would like for us to think they did, but it just ain't so.

Tom replied: Sorry. The 2nd century Church Fathers, (Gentiles), determined that the Jewish Sabbath was part of the outdated Ceremonial law. This anti-Semitic error allowed the Gentile church to embrace Sunday as the new, Gentile, Christian Sabbath. And it has been a tradition in the church ever since.

Read the RC position about Sunday Sacredness. Their double-talk and deception should be obvious to anyone familiar with history and the Bible. In fact, the very first sentence from this confused apologetic for Sunday Holiness is flat out wrong and impossible.

Listen to how the Laodicean Pope starts to explain why Sunday is a Holy day, and the duty of the Church. The apologetic starts out with myth and historical fabrication, even as it ends up promoting utter nonsense and doctrinal fraud.

Contrary to the RCC, Sunday sacredness did NOT exist from apostolic times, nor is there any basis in the NT for such a doctrine. Sunday has NOT "always been accorded special attention in the history of the church" and it is complete nonsense for anyone to make such a false dishonest point that is so easily disproved. The apostles only knew about the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Jews, and the Reformed Sabbath of Jesus that they recorded in the Gospels for the church.

"The Lord's Day — as Sunday was called from Apostolic times — has always been accorded special attention in the history of the Church because of its close connection with the very core of the Christian mystery. (APOSTOLIC LETTER DIES DOMINI OF THE HOLY FATHER JOHN PAUL II TO THE BISHOPS, CLERGY AND FAITHFUL OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON KEEPING THE LORD'S DAY HOLY; May 31, 1998.)

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_ … ni_en.html

There is no Sunday Sacredness for the Church. It is an impossible doctrine that is nothing more than an anti-Gospel fraud and anti-Semitic, Gentile fabrication. The early church was ONLY JEWISH, and so too was the Messiah and all his apostles. If they had wanted to change the Sabbath to Sunday, they would have done so, and thus there would have been an uproar as a result, as well as a record of all this in the NT.

But there is no such record because it never happened. There was no recorded and approved Sunday sacredness in the apostolic church, much less the elimination of the Reformed Sabbath that Jesus taught in the Gospels.

It was the Gentile Church Fathers that identified, separated, and removed the Jewish Ceremonial law from the Moral law of 10 Commandments. They correctly concluded that the Moral Law as binding on the church as an eternal standard for behavior. However, they made an error to declare the 7th day Sabbath part of the outdated Ceremonial laws, even as they compounded this error by changing the Sabbath commandment from Saturday to Sunday, thereby inventing a new Sabbath doctrine for the church that has no Semitic or apostolic basis.

No one should think that the primary doctrine of the 3rd Angels Message, which is the Sabbath, was a mistake. While the SDA's ended up grasping the Old Covenant Sabbath and acting like the Gospel hating Pharisees, they is still great truth in the Gospel Sabbath, which at this point, is virtually unknown to the SDA's or the church at large.

So there have been great errors about the Sabbath on all sides of the debate, but now the time has come for the church to stop all this foolishness and understand the Gospel Sabbath. It is something very different from what all Laodiceans have assumed.

Continued

Tom Norris Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 10:48 am:

Hubert F. Sturges said: It is difficult for me to respond to some of your posts…

Tom said: Hub, now you see why Clifford Goldstein, Bill Johnsson, and all the SDA scholars run from this discussion?

None of them can defend TA. So you are not alone. You don't know the Gospel or church history correctly, and neither do they. Which means this discussion is way over the heads of most SDA's, especially for those that have no desire to find the truth.

Hub said: You need to understand my regard for Ellen White: When people attack her, it is as if they attacked my mother.

Tom said: Neither Tom Norris nor Dr. Ford has ever "attacked Ellen White." And I defy you to find any such attacks in my posts or the writings of Dr. Ford. So stop with the diversions and myths. It is the WHITE ESTATE that I attack, and I shall continue to do so until they confess what they have done and correct the record. They have deceived you and all others about Ellen White and it is time this charade come to an end.

If you really thought of Ellen White as your mother, then you should not have let her be abused by Arthur White all these years. Why did you look the other way when people whispered about how Arthur White was not being honest with Ellen White's writings? Did you ever stop to investigate? Did you ever try to help Ellen White and make sure that she was being treated fairly, and professionally at the White Estate? Or did you just submit to the declarations of the church leaders, assuming all that they said was correct and true?

Now that the proof of fraud in the White Estate has surfaced for all to see, you still look away, unable to grasp how wrong the White Estate has been all these years. This is no way to treat your mom. She is being abused, and you look the other way? What kind of son is that?

The best thing you can do for Ellen White and for your own confused brain, as well as for the Advent Movement; is to lend your voice to the growing cry of Reform and Repentance. You need to demand that the White Estate explain why they were hiding the record of 1888 and deliberately deceiving the church with a fabricated story? We all deserve to hear their reply. But few care to question the White Estate; many treat that place as if it were a sacred Temple.

You, and all the TSDA's, need to stand up and protect the real Ellen White and stop supporting the fraud of the White Estate.

Hub said: You may think that is far fetched -- but it is exactly the way I felt when I had to listen to Walter Rea for two hours at some time in the past. Many of the comments that I see in forums are grossly judgmental of another human being, and totally unfair. It is painful for me to see it and I generally avoid such discussions.

Tom Norris said: Tom Norris is not Walter Rea, nor do I support his attacks against Ellen White. But I do understand his reaction when he caught the White Estate in one lie after another. He took it very personally and lashed out. Thus, he was angry and hurt at how the church had deceived him and everyone else about Ellen White.

However, he was never allowed in the White Estate, nor did he have the benefit of my research. Nor did he ever figure out what was going on in the White Estate or with Ellen White. Had he known what was really taking place, his book would have been more worthwhile for the church.

But regardless, the White Estate deserved even worse than Walter Rea gave them. So Tom Norris will do what should have been done a long time ago. He will explain to all how the White Estate was manipulating Ellen White's writings and perpetrating a massive fraud on the Adventist Community. The truth is far worse that Rea ever imagined. So even if you are too cowardly to confront the White Estate and demand answers, I am not. I have the evidence, and they are not going to escape justice.

Robert L. Shields said: No Hubert I am not proud of some of what Tom has written concerning you.

Tom said: I am not pleased to condemn the stubborn and stupid TSDA's (Traditional SDA’s). But I am compelled to do. Those that understand the Gospel have a duty to protect and defend it, even as those who are witness to a crime cannot remain silent.

Moreover, there is no pride involved with being involved in Adventism. It is humiliating and embarrassing to be part of this confused, arrogant, and self-destructing church that had so much potential for good. They are as wretched, dishonest, and wicked as the Jews that killed Christ. The SDA's have acted shamefully, and they continue to do so. Pity.

The GC, which includes the White Estate, has gone corrupt. There is no sense in pretending otherwise. Those who understand the Gospel and church history have no choice but to condemn such a false system.

Robert said: Tom, Your posts are full of judgments toward those you believe are not following what you know to be true.

Tom said: My posts condemn those that promote a false Gospel and manipulated church history. I make no apologies for telling the truth.

My posts are intended to bluntly tell the truth about the Gospel and church history. This is very different from the improper "judging" of church members that is referenced in the Gospels and discussed, for example, in Rom 14.

Rom. 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Rom. 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

Those wolves that embrace a false Gospel are not to be considered "brothers." Their false Gospel prevents them from being part of the Kingdom of God and thus they are not to be considered within the confines of the church. Their "master" is not the Lord Jesus, even though they proclaim otherwise.

Those that understand the Gospel and church history cannot pull their punches, much less indulge in silly myths and impossible theology from imposters. It is the greatest of sins to allow the Gospel to be abused in the church. It is not wrong to understand and separate the true Gospel from the false. Such judgment is mandatory for every Christian.

2Tim. 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

2Tim. 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

2Tim. 4:5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Moreover, I am prepared to be judged by the same Gospel that I promote, so there is no double standard or unfairness going on. Those that stubbornly and purposefully embrace a false Gospel are not to be considered "brothers." Rather, they are wolves in sheep's clothing, and thus the warning must be sounded.

Matt. 7:2 “For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

The Gospel is what it is, and so too church history. Those that try to promote a counterfeit version of the Gospel, and try to substitute myths for facts, are not going to have an easy time in these discussions. I make no apologies for that.

Robert said: Now you may argue that I, too, have been judgmental. Yes, I have been judgmental concerning Adventist doctrine and Ellen White's writings.

Tom said: Humans were given minds to use. Which means we are supposed to make many judgments about many things, including religion. This is not wrong. However, it is wrong to judge unfairly or hypocritically. Those that make such judgments are subject to the rules of judgment.

John 7:24 “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

Matt. 7:2 “For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

Luke 6:41 “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Luke 6:42 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.

Gospel Judgment is necessary in the church, and it is absurd to think otherwise.

1Cor. 5:11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

1Cor. 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

1Cor. 5:13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

1Cor. 6:1 Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?

1Cor. 6:2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?

1Cor. 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?

So there is all kind of necessary judgment going on in the church, even the settling of disputes that require judgment of the church court. This is not wrong. What is wrong is to be judging ones behavior and finding fault, when the truth of the matter is that we are all sinners and none are perfect.

James 4:11 Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it.

But this is not what is taking place here. I am not condemning Hub because he is not doing this or that good enough. He is not condemned by me because he did not live up to some high standard of behavior. None of us are good enough to point such fingers.

Rather, he is condemned because he has embraced a false Gospel and a false Christ. He is trying to spread poison in the church. This is what Paul will not tolerate. And neither should we. Thus no TSDA is really a Christian at all, because their Gospel is not valid or salvific. It is worthless and wrong.

Thus they must all be condemned; judged as a pretenders that are standing OUTSIDE the church, even though many think they are safely on the inside.

John 7:24 “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

To condemn those that preach a false Gospel in the church is not optional. It is the duty of all. The church must be able to "judge" between what is right and what is wrong; between what is true and what is false. At the end of time this ability to Judge honestly and correctly will leave the church, which is why they are judged as being "blind." This has already taken place. Look around and see.

Robert said: Never have I condemned anyone to perdition for believing something I don't think is scriptural.

Tom said: Ha! The issue has nothing to do with what "you believe." You are not an apostle, and thus what you or I "believe" is irrelevant for doctrine. However, not so with the Apostles. When they spell out the rules for condemning someone in the church, THESE ARE THE RULES. There is no debate about it.

The book of Galatians begins with the command to curse anyone that "preaches" a false Gospel in the church. This apostolic directive is repeated for emphasis. How could you miss it? And guess what? The persons that were being "condemned" was none other than the two highest leaders in the apostolic church! Peter and James!

Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

So this is the end of the matter. Condemning false preachers to perdition is very scriptural, regardless who is involved. It is also the command of the Apostle Paul.

Who are you to challenge the apostle Paul? I would not suggest it. You need to back off and admit you are wrong. More than that, you need to understand that it is your duty to defend the Gospel and condemn those that get it wrong. (Not to make them feel bad, but so they can get it correct, and the church can be edified.)

Do you understand?

Robert said: Only God is to be the judge. I don't care what you quote from Paul's writings, We are not judges.

Tom said: No Christian can judge Paul to be irrelevant, much less not care what he teaches. This is a rash statement that must be repudiated by anyone that embraces the Gospel. When Paul speaks, we need to pay careful attention, not determine to go our own way because we are certain we are correct. All Laodiceans need to learn that their views, feelings, and traditions do not determine doctrine in the slightest.

While Paul teaches that we are not to harshly judge the behavior of new Christians, (see Rom 14), he teaches in Galatians that we must make a judgment and take a stand about the Gospel. The moment one detects a false Gospel being preached in the church, there is a duty to take action against the person promoting this fraud. Why? Because the Gospel must be constantly defended, or it will go bad. And guess what? This is exactly what has taken place. It has gone very bad.

Had it not been for Dr. Ford, how many in the SDA Community would know the Gospel? Very few. Dr. Ford was correct to stand up and defend the Gospel. He was correct to tell the truth about doctrine, even though the wicked church leaders tried to silence, blackmail, and discredit him. Here is the test of a true Christian; when persecution appears, they still refuse to betray the Gospel.

Moreover, this idea of condemning those that reject the Gospel hardly originated with Paul. It was Jesus who made it clear that condemnation awaited all that refused to believe in the Gospel and join the church. Those that preach the Gospel have no choice but to explain the fate that awaits all that refuse it.

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Mark 16:16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Robert said: I will admit that we may inspect fruits, but to do more is sinning on our part. I could relate stories of Ellen's problem with condemning others, but we all know those occurrences.

Tom said: WRONG. Who says we get to inspect people's behavior and get into their business? We are not fruit inspectors, and this is the very type of Judgment that is forbidden.

Luke 12:13 Someone in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the family inheritance with me.”

Luke 12:14 But He said to him, “Man, who appointed Me a judge or arbitrator over you?”

John 12:47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

The fruit of the Christian is love, joy, and peace. Who in the church is going to judge our love and kindness? Who can presume such things? No one. There is no such work of Judgment or "fruit" inspection in the church.

Gal. 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Luke 6:37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

It is wrong for the RC church to require their members to confess--in detail- their many sins to a priest. It is wrong for the SDA church to require the payment of tithe in order to hold church office. It is wrong to judge a person by their outward appearances, because salvation is by faith, and not works.

John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

John 15:6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

John 15:8 “My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.

No man in the church has been given the task to inspect anyone's fruit or behavior. That type of Judging is wrong. But don't confuse behavior with doctrine. Ellen White's writings are subject to doctrinal challenge, even as they are not canonical. But we are not to pass judgment on her motives or her life's work, thinking that if we find flaws that she must be a fraud. This is nonsense. Flawed people can make valuable contributions to the church. Just look at the apostles.

Defending the Gospel and condemning those that falsely promote it, is not being "judgmental." Rather, it is following the will of God and the teachings of the apostles.

It is the law that condemns and the Gospel that saves. Everyone is already condemned at birth, so what is there to judge? That we are sinners? It is an obvious and stated fact that requires no judgment. So on what basis can we judge anyone else? Even Jesus did not come to Earth to Judge mankind. He knew they were already guilty.

John 3:17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Rom. 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

Rom. 3:10 as it is written,

“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

Rom. 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,

Rom. 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

So we can never judge ourselves to be better than anyone else from a moral perspective. We are all the same.

Continued

Tom Norris Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 10:54 am:

Robert said: Ellen set herself up as a special messenger. We have every right and should judge her writings as to their honesty, value and content. If honest evaluation is used, she fails the test.

Tom said: Ellen Harmon was a young Methodist teen when her Spiritual Gifts became manifest. There was nothing sinister or abnormal about her gifts during this period in American history. So I don't think she can be accused of "setting herself up" as if she planned to start a denomination or became a famous Christian writer.

Moreover, it was James White that harnessed her as a "special messenger" for the Advent Cause. He was her protector, publisher, and agent, and had it not been for him, no one would even know her name today.

Furthermore, when viewed in their proper historical and chronological context, Ellen White's writings do not fail. In fact, they provide great insight into the minds of the Pioneers, even as they explain SDA theology and history from the inside. What a pity that the church leaders hid and suppressed this material so that they could fabricate false doctrine and dishonestly revise church history.

Ellen White was no fraud, nor did she ever claim doctrinal authority or infallibility. In fact, there was never a time in her life when she believed that the IJ was part of the 1st Angels Message as all SDA's have been indoctrinated to believe. While this seems impossible, I can assure you that we have all been greatly deceived about Ellen White BY THE WHITE ESTATE. Thus it is the WHITE ESTATES version of Ellen White that has failed. Do not confuse these two. The White Estate has much to confess, even as the record must be corrected.

Robert said: I don't care if she is someone's mother or as Hubert said it is like an attack on his Mother, if she is wrong we shouldn't use her writings. Sentiment has value, but not when it violates scriptural truth.

Tom said: The White Estate has misrepresented Ellen White and her writings from the very beginning in Takoma Park. They also changed the fundamentals of the Advent Faith, and indoctrinated generations into believing lies about Ellen White and the Three Angels Messages. Ellen White did not believe what the White Estate has claimed all these years. She did not support their views on Hermeneutics, or the Gospel, nor about the definition of the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

Ellen White's writings were never supposed to be suppressed or manipulated by the White Estate, nor were they ever to be used from the pulpit or in the SS lessons, or in the Church Manual as the modern SDA's have done, and continue to do. The White Estate has created a false and very dysfunctional version of Ellen White, and it is this imposter that has wrecked havoc on this dishonest and gullible Denomination.

However, it is time that all the formers, and the ones that have stayed, come to understand what a massive hoax has been played on everyone. The Ellen White of your youth was a cultic delusion from the sick mind Arthur White. She was a legalistic fantasy that was knowingly false and fabricated.

Until the White Estate comes clean and tells the truth about what they have done, the SDA church is going to continue to self-destruct. Until they repent and start honestly promoting the real Ellen White, the church will continue to live under a well-deserved curse.

Robert said: I did not enter into this forum lightly. Former Adventists have a mission to tell those who have never given a thought to the validity of their faith-- a reason to question it.

Tom Norris said… Former SDA's have a duty to understand the Gospel as well as to correctly learn church history--just like everyone else. They still have an obligation to understand contemporary eschatology and to try and figure out the will of God for the Laodicean church.

The Advent Movement has already made a large impact on Protestant theology, and its work as a reforming voice in the church should not be underestimated or ignored. Few understand how much the Advent Movement has already influenced them.

So no one should look down on the Adventists as if there are no great truths within their community, there are plenty. The Three Angels Messages is a remarkable and credible path for the last church to follow. The fact that the SDA's have gone bad is beside the point. So too did the Jews and the Early church and by the time we get to Laodicea, every church and denomination in the land is condemned for false doctrine.

No one should write off the either the Advent Movement or the SDA's, as there is more Gospel history to play out. There is more Gospel eschatology to understand, even as there is a very different, and more correct, way to look at the Sabbath and the Adventist Apocalyptic.

Robert said: It was not easy for Carolyn and me to leave Adventism. Most all our friends are SDA. We cherish them and respect them as I do you. Still, we had to stand on principles. Believing in Ellen is a condition of membership. We had to be honest.

Tom Norris said: It is time for the Adventist Church to admit that the White Estate has not been honest or correct about Ellen White. What all have been taught has turned out to be a massive fraud. Ellen White does not embrace Traditional, Takoma Park, Adventism, and it was a horrible travesty for Arthur White to have perpetrated such a wicked and confusing fraud on the church. Glacier View was unnecessary and very wrong. It was based on the fraud of the White Estate, and championed their sick views.

Consequently, millions have left the church since Glacier View. The leaders are fortunate that more people have not left. But regardless, the church must confess what they have done and repent for many things. They must correct the record in the White Estate and apologize to generations for misleading them about Ellen White and what she believed. Otherwise, everyone might decide to leave and that will be the end of the SDA church, if it is not already.

All the former and current SDA's have a right to demand that the White Estate tell the truth. No one should give them a pass and look the other way. We have all been horribly and purposefully deceived and misled by the White Estate and they must be held accountable for this CRIME, even as Ellen White's name gets cleared and the historical record corrected.

The end of the world is obviously closer today then ever before. So there is a great and serious need for the church to understand Gospel eschatology. But there is neither a proper Gospel nor eschatology in the SDA church, and thus it is a dangerous place to be in the last days.

So there must be reform and reformation in the Adventist Community. It is the responsibility of each and every one, including the "formers," to do their part to overturn the corrupt and rotten hierarchy that has ruined Adventism.

Robert said to Hub: Even if you detest some of what Tom has written, you owe it to yourself to study the parts that bear truth. He has hit the nail on the head many times.

Tom said: I have had many discussions online with Hub, and the apologist Goldstein, and other die hard SDA's. They all refuse to face the facts and deal honestly with the issues. While none of them can refute the points being made, not one has made the slightest confession about anything. They are committed to their many false Traditions and myths regardless of the facts. Just like the Jews.

Acts 28:23 When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.

Acts 28:24 Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.

Acts 28:25 And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, “The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers,

Acts 28:26 saying,

‘GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY,
“YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

Acts 28:27 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES;
OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.”’

Hub said: About the NT tithe -- tithe paid only by farmers with their livestock? Here again details are lacking. Lack of information does not always mean lack of truth. The tithing principal is clearly taught in the Old Testament. Malachi is clear that there is blessing in paying the tithe.

Tom said: Hub, like all SDA's, you are dodging the real issue. There is no debate about OC tithing. The issue is about New Covenant tithing. The debate is whether tithing in the church is valid? And if so, why is it valid, and on whose authority?

No SDA has ever produced any evidence that tithe is a valid church doctrine, and unless this can be done, then the entire SDA church must repent and reorganize.

QUESTION: Where is the support from the Apostles for tithe in the church?

ANSWER: The same place as the support for Sunday Sacredness and the Easter Bunny.

There is no such doctrine as tithe in the church. It is a myth. A false doctrine. And no matter how often the SDA's call it "sacred" and the "will of God," etc., it is no such thing. They, like the Pharisees, are great blasphemers that lust after money.

Luke 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him.

Heb. 13:5 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, “I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,”

Hub, you have failed to refute the many points that have been made on this thread. Thus you, and all SDA's, - are proven wrong for all to see.

When will you admit this fact and stop trying to twist the scriptures to support your errors? Tithing is a dangerous doctrinal fraud. Those that embrace it are as condemned as those Galatians that embraced circumcision.

Hub said: In tithing the "mint and anise and cummin" Jesus was supporting the principle of tithing even in detail. It is reasonable to believe that those on a money system would pay tithe in money.

Tom replied: Stop the double-talk and diversion. If you cannot show the church promoting and practicing tithe, then you have lost this debate. If you can't sustain your position-- you lose.

Where are the NT passages showing the church collecting tithe, or redistributing tithe? Without such a record, you lose.

There is no such doctrine as tithe in the apostolic church and anyone that says otherwise- like the SDA's--or the Mormons, must be condemned for promoting false and self-serving doctrine that is fanciful, contrived, and without historical foundation. This is blasphemy.

Hub said: I believe that the church DOES have authority within the bounds of what the Bible says. And this would include things like the NT tithe.

Tom replied: Hub, you are free to believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny if you want. But you are not free to declare that the church has the authority to promote Old Covenant tithing or a hierarchy. Those who speak this way are not Protestant. Only the Apostles can approve church doctrine, and they have repudiated tithe in the church, as well as a hierarchy.

So that is the end of the matter for those that are paying attention to the Word. So who cares what you believe? Not me.

Hub said: You insist that the Old Testament has no application to New Testament Christians.

Tom replied: I never said such a thing. The OT is the foundation and context for the NT, so there are many "applications" and parallels. But only the apostles can explain how the OT relates to the NT church. Neither the SDA's nor the RC's were given any permission to invent new doctrines from the OT for the church. But this is what they have both done.

The SDA's have invented the doctrine of NT tithe, declaring themselves to be the Temple Storehouse, and the RC's invented a separate NT Priesthood with the Pope being the High Priest, who sits on a church throne. These are both fictional and blasphemous doctrines that are not valid in the church regardless how many times the church leaders claim otherwise.

Hub said: You bring up the issue of the Old Covenant. I have presented this in detail on my website. The historical "old Covenant" was made and ratified at Sinai, and lasted just 40 days. The experiential old covenant mindset developed in the years and centuries after Sinai. It was dominant at the time of Jesus and was a main reason He was rejected.

Tom said: Hub, you are making a fool of yourself. And so too the SDA's. They are so confused about the Two Covenants that they can't think straight. This is what the 1888 debates were all about. So save your breath my friend, you don't know what you are talking about. I suggest that you read Luther's Commentary on Galatians. Perhaps he can get through to you?

Hub said: To believe that God gave all this to Israel at Sinai is to believe that God purposely gave a faulty covenant to Israel. I cannot accept that.

Tom said: Who cares what you can or cannot believe? If your brain is too small, that is your problem. Then you cannot accept the Gospel. Too bad for you.

Those that require the Gospel Story to perfectly fit their warped and sinful minds will fail to grasp the genuine doctrine. We do not pass judgment on the Gospel, it passes judgment on us. You either take it the way it was given--with real wine for example, --or not at all. The Christian Faith is not a potluck affair whereby we can take some of this or a little of that and make up our religion. There is only one Gospel and one way to obtain Eternal life.

We either embrace genuine doctrine correctly or we don't. And so far, you have embraced a fraud. Sorry. There will be no Eternal life for you my friend. If the Bible is true, you and your false Gospel are destined for hell.

Those that have embraced this "grape juice" version of the Gospel are toasting a worthless Christ and drinking to their own damnation. Cheers!

Hub said: This is how I see it. I know you see it differently. It might help if you would spell out in detail just what you think the old covenant consisted of.

Tom said: The OC = Judaism. It contains both the Ceremonial and Moral laws. See the Old Testament for further details.

Continued

Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 9:40 am:

Robert L. Shields said: Tom, I gleaned much from your posts. They are laboriously long though.

Tom said: Bob; I am glad there was something worthwhile in those posts for you. However, if they were shorter, you could not have "gleaned" as much. So why complain?

The discussion of Adventist Reform is best suited for those with a long attention span and a large library. It is not for the trite or for those who lack the necessary education or inclination to study, process, and understand the issues.

The Gospel Story is much more difficult to understand than people realize. Contrary to what many think and teach, this ancient religion is not easy material to master, much less understand correctly. The fact that so many think their opinions, traditions, and doctrines are credible and true is the great delusion of Laodicea.

The last church is "blind" to the Gospel, even as they repudiate the Apostles at every opportunity. Which is why there are so many denominations all teaching a different and opposing version of the same story. It is as if the Christian Faith was built on polytheism, not on monotheism. As if there were legions of different Christ's, and a multitude of different Gospels.

2Cor. 11:4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

Today, the SDA's are just one voice among many that falsely claims to speak for God, Jesus, and the Apostles, when they do no such thing. Every church in the land has indoctrinated their members into believing fables and myth in place of the genuine Gospel. Consequently, there is universal ignorance in Laodicea when it comes to correctly understanding the teachings of Jesus and the meaning of the Gospel Story.

At the end of time, prophecy clearly predicts that the last church --meaning all denominations, will totally lose the meaning and the definition of the Gospel. Look around; this first century prophecy has been fulfilled. The last church has lost its way.

Bob said: Some (of your points) are beneficial, some could be beneficial and some I question completely.

Tom said: Good for you to think and question! No one should embrace any position without doing the necessary investigation and research. This is why we are having such a public and open discussion. Without which the Adventist Community will never understand much of anything.

The Adventists Community needs to learn how to think, question, and discuss the issues, even as they need to learn the truth about church history and theology. But not everyone is on the same level. So we need to make sure that everyone understands the problems and their causes, and how to correct them.

Some have years of experience with theology and church history, while others not so much. Some know a lot about this point, but nothing about other issues. Some are careful scholars, and some can't read the Bible correctly to save their souls. Some think this, and others think that and few are united or correct about anything. All is chaos and confusion in the Adventist Community and this sad state of affairs has to be corrected.

So how can such error be addressed and resolved in a few words? No. It will take many words and many actions to wake up the sleeping and wretched SDA church.

Bob said: For instance, you said that the ancient Christian church didn't help those out of their own church except an occasional gift to another Christian group. How would you know this?

Tom said: QUESTION: How do we know anything about the early church?

ANSWER: By studying the NT.

Did you think I was guessing? Hardly. In order to claim the church did anything; it is necessary to find such proof in the apostolic record. This applies to the issue about tithe as well as to the myth about the social Gospel, wine drinking, or the Sunday Sabbath, or anything else. Doctrine must rest on the proper evidence, not on the absence of it.

Those that think the apostolic church used their resources for outsiders MUST find the evidence of such behavior and doctrine IN THE NT. But where is this evidence?

The fact of the matter is that the Social Gospel as it relates to outsiders is a popular, but false assumption. Why? Because the evidence shows that the Early Church only supported their fellow believers. Period.

So the NT will settle the issue. The church did NOT use their resources for outsiders.

Nor did they tithe or drink grape juice at the Lords Supper.

There was no Sunday Sacredness either, much less a separate Priesthood with a high Priest and a hierarchy that owns and controls the local churches. These are just myths and delusions regardless how many think otherwise.

Moreover, the early Apostolic Church did not even allow Gentiles to join them. So why would they feed and shelter unbelieving Jews or Gentiles? It would be illogical and irrational. They didn't do it. Nor did Jesus teach that the church should take care of the poor outside the church.

Mark 6:11 “Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them.”

Thus the church was taught that they were not to feed or care for those that refused the Gospel. Those that were considered their "brothers" were only those that embraced the Gospel.

Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

Bob said: Jesus said what you do to the least of these you have done for me. He told the rich young ruler to give all he had to the poor. There was never a stipulation that they had to belong to the church.

Tom said: We have all been taught many myths about the Christian Faith. Many read things into the teachings of Jesus that are not there. Over time, myths become doctrine and false doctrine becomes embedded in our culture. The Gospel Story has been handed down for centuries. And thus many traditions and views that have become normative for the Gentiles-- are false and absurd. We all need to be very careful, especially because we know that the last church is completely wrong and deluded.

While we all know that good Christians are mindful of the poor, but has this fundamental kindness been taken out of context? What kind of poor was the NT referring?

Luke 21:1 And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury.

Luke 21:2 And He saw a poor widow putting in two small copper coins.

Luke 21:3 And He said, “Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all of them;

Luke 21:4 for they all out of their surplus put into the offering; but she out of her poverty put in all that she had to live on.”

The poor window was a Jew. She was not an outsider but an insider. A little study on this point will reveal that the poor under consideration in the church meant the "poor Christians." Not the poor in general or those outside the Gospel tent.

Gal. 2:10 They only asked us to remember the poor—the very thing I also was eager to do.

Rom. 15:26 For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.

James 2:2 For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes,

James 2:3 and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, “You sit here in a good place,” and you say to the poor man, “You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool,”

The term "poor" in the NT does not mean outsiders. It is a reference to those inside the household of faith.

John 12:5 “Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and given to poor people?”

"Poor people" means "poor Jews." It does not mean poor Gentiles or poor outsiders. And it is this teaching that is carried over to the Church.

Forget what you have been taught for the moment. The teachings of Jesus, --as understood and practiced by the apostolic church, --is the issue. It is way too late for us to be second-guessing what the church should have done in the 1st century.

We are dealing with church history, not our own opinions of what Jesus taught about the poor. If the NT fails to record the apostolic church taking care of non-believers, then that is a large piece of evidence that has great meaning for us. Furthermore, when we see the church only taking care of believers, that completes the picture and the issue is settled.

Here is all the evidence that anyone needs to know the doctrine under discussion.

The church is to take care of its own. It is to help the poor and the widows WITHIN THE CHURCH. There were no resources allocated to unbelievers, much less any tithe collected or sent to anyone.

The NT teaches that the Social Gospel, as it relates to outsiders, is a sham. It was not practiced by the early church, and neither was tithing. Which means that the church is not to follow such doctrines today.

The local church should be set up to help the members with their collective resources. THIS IS WHAT THE NT TEACHES. The church is not to send their money to some hierarchy for redistribution and global re-allocation. Nor are the resources of the church to be use for non-believers, poor or otherwise. This is the point. The SDA church is not following the NT when it comes to church organization and finance.

Do not misunderstand; the early church was well aware of Jesus teachings to be kind to ones enemies, by which he primarily meant the Romans who had captured Israel. But this text in no way supports any resources going to those outside the Gospel tent.

While the church was taught to practice "hospitality" and kindness to all, this is a very different point from taking care of outsiders, or giving them any "preference." The outsiders had no "preference" or right to any of the resources in the church.

Listen to Paul:

Rom. 12:10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor;

Rom. 12:11 not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;

Rom. 12:12 rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer,

Rom. 12:13 contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality.

Rom. 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.

Rom. 12:15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep.

Rom. 12:16 Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation.

Rom. 12:17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.

Rom. 12:18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

Rom. 12:19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY,” says the Lord.

Rom. 12:20 “BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD.”

Note that "preference" is given to those inside the church, not outside. And note that Paul says the church should "contribute to the needs of the saints." He did not say that they should take care of the "needs" of those outside the church, nor did he mean such a thing.

Why did he not say that? Because it was not the practice of the church to take care of outsiders. Nor was it the will of God or the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 4:32 And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them.

Note that the resources of the church were considered "common property" of the church. The outsiders had no stake or claim on anything. The resources of the local church were not, not, not, for those outside the church. Otherwise, Paul would have referenced it, would he not? But there was no resources earmarked for outsiders. The local church used their resources only for the church. Not for outsiders.

In fact, this point can be further understood by one of the very first problems in the church. Some Christians were not getting any resources from the church while others were. Note that there is no assumption here that any outsiders were getting any resources, or that the church had a doctrine of feeding the "poor widows" outside their Community of Faith. Why? Because they didn't do it.

Acts 6:1 Now at this time while the disciples were increasing in number, a complaint arose on the part of the Hellenistic Jews against the native Hebrews, because their widows were being overlooked in the daily serving of food.

Acts 6:2 So the twelve summoned the congregation of the disciples and said, “It is not desirable for us to neglect the word of God in order to serve tables.

Acts 6:3 “Therefore, brethren, select from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task.

Acts 6:4 “But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.”

While the apostles acknowledged that the church has a duty to take care of its members, they did not authorize that outsiders had any right to these resources. Nor did they teach any such doctrine. Which proves the Social Gospel is just as wrong as Sunday Sacredness. This is a great blow to what many believe, but it is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to false doctrine.

Moreover, Paul actually teaches that the church members are to support themselves so that they don't have to ask "outsiders" for help. If the Social Gospel were being practiced, Paul would have had to say that the church needed resources in order to help the "outsiders."

1Th. 4:9 Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;

1Th. 4:10 for indeed you do practice it toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, to excel still more,

1Th. 4:11 and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you,

1Th. 4:12 so that you will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

Although the church had no doctrine or inclination to feed outsiders, they were instructed to deal with them in a cautious and calculated manner. There is no instruction about taking care of outsiders here, but there is about how they should speak to them.

Col. 4:5 Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity.

Col. 4:6 Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.

While J /C paradigm has always made provisions for the poor, the church had plenty of their own poor to help. And it was the poor INSIDE the church that were to be helped by the church. NOT THE POOR ON THE OUTSIDE.

Rom. 15:25 but now, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints.

Rom. 15:26 For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.

Rom. 15:27 Yes, they were pleased to do so, and they are indebted to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in their spiritual things, they are indebted to minister to them also in material things.

Rom. 15:28 Therefore, when I have finished this, and have put my seal on this fruit of theirs, I will go on by way of you to Spain.

Continued

Tom Norris Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 9:51 am:

Note that Paul was taking funds from one local church to another. Why? For the Christian poor. NOT FOR ANY OUTSIDERS. There was no tithe and no taking care of those outside the church.

Listen to James talk about taking care of the poor in the church. The entire context of this passage is about those in the church--not those outside the church. The poor in the church are not to be treated any different from the rich.

James 2:2 For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes,

James 2:3 and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, “You sit here in a good place,” and you say to the poor man, “You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool,”

James 2:4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives?

James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

James 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?

James 2:7 Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called?

James 2:8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well.

James 2:9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

So the term poor is being used only in reference to those in the church. Just as Jesus also used the term to apply to those inside the Jewish Faith.

Furthermore, let me also show you another text that proves the early church did not feed, cloth, or give assistance to outsiders. It is a seldom read portion of Paul's letter to the church at Corinth, but it proves they did not think they were supposed to share their resources with outsiders.

In fact, due to a misunderstanding with Paul, the Corinthian Church took the position that they were not even to speak or associate with outsiders, much less feed them. The point is clear that neither Paul, nor the church at Corinth, thought it was their duty to share their resources with outsiders. Which is why there is no record of the church taking care of outsiders.

1Cor. 5:9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;

1Cor. 5:10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.

1Cor. 5:11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

1Cor. 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

1Cor. 5:13 But those who are outside, God judges.

The church did not share their resources with outsiders. Period.

Bob, I can find no evidence to support the popular myth that the early church practiced the Social Gospel as it related to outsiders. I look forward to whatever evidence you can marshal to prove your point. But I don't think you can make a case.

After some research on your part, I think you will agree on this point as well as tithe and even wine.

Robert said: I could go on, but you seem to be so steeped in your own ideas that whatever Biblical statement I would submit, you would find some way to refute it.

Tom said: This is not about "my ideas." Rather, it is about the evidence contained in the Bible. If you think the early church practiced the Social Gospel and took care of outsiders, or practiced tithe, or observed the Sunday Sabbath, or drank grape juice at the Eucharist, then please show us the evidence from the NT.

It's all about the evidence. If I have misunderstood some passages, I invite you, or others, to correct me. That is why this is such an open discussion for all to see. Whoever has truth should lay it on the table. That is why we are here.

So feel free to challenge anything I say. People do it all the time. I am neither infallible nor an Apostle. So I don't expect to be correct on every point, nor do my feelings get hurt when someone questions me or proves my position wrong.

In fact, I have been asking Clifford Goldstein for years to prove me wrong, but for some reason he is not up to the challenge. No one can defend Traditional Adventism. This point has been proven to all --on this site.

The point of this site-- and this discussion, it to understand why things have gone so wrong for Adventism, so that it can be fixed. Without correctly understanding the problems, there can be no worthwhile solution. Adventist REFORM, as articulated on this site, is the only path that can save the corrupt and dying SDA church. There is no other option.

But then-- I could be wrong and Clifford Goldstein correct? It is up to each of us to decide ABOUT THE EVIDENCE.

Robert said: Good luck in your quest. I do hope you don't turn everyone off before they have a chance to see the message you have for them.

Tom replied: Ha! Would this be your advice to the apostles as they publicly charged the Jewish leaders with the murder of Christ?

Would you not support their right to speak out for the Gospel? Or would you think they were "turning off too many people"? Would you advise them to tone it down and not be so blunt, aggressive, and truthful? Would you even join them?

Would you also take the same position with the Reformers?

Luther turned off so many people that their world came apart and wars resulted for years. Would you have cautioned him to tone it down for fear of offending so many that were loyal to the RCC? Would you have suggested that he take another path? Would you even join the Protestants?

At the end of time, the final Gospel Proclamation will not be a timid or tame affair. Rather, it will powerfully condemn the legions of false doctrines and worthless traditions that have overwhelmed Laodicea. It will be a blunt and stunning message that will overturn the many myths and legends of a wretched and blind church.

Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

Rev. 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

Those Laodiceans that follow the Spirit will support serious and honest Gospel Reform. They will not sit on the sidelines and criticize those that are pushing forward to find truth.

All former and present SDA's should want to find the solution to the many problems that are destroying the Advent Movement. The world is hardly a stable place, and it should be clear that its last days are close at hand.

But where is the path of truth for the last days? Where is the correct Gospel for all to follow? Where is the eschatology and the preparation for the Time of Trouble? Where are the kindness, healing, and love? Where are the true followers of Jesus and the Apostles?

It is time for all those in Laodicea to wake up and understand that they have been following a false Gospel and a fabricated Christ. It is time for every church to re-examine its theology and repent for embracing so much false and impossible doctrine.

Let this last great reform begin with the SDA's. They are the most wretched and blind of all Protestant dominations. They have most recently persecuted the Gospel, in 1980, and yet they feel no remorse or sorrow. They just pretend that Glacier View never happened and that they have never made any doctrinal errors.

Silly SDA's, they are very arrogant and foolish to think they have all the truth when they have almost none. Which is why they are self-destructing for all to see. The SDA's are doomed unless they repent, and so too all others.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

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Don Sands Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 7:57 pm:

Tithing and Business - A Baptist Perspective

(How can anyone fault such an approach?)

Time Magazine

Monday, Feb. 21, 1949

The Lord Helps Those . . .

And of all that Thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto Thee.

—Genesis 28:22

To the Kerr canning-jar people, Jacob's tithing vow is more than a wall motto. It is a way of doing business: every time Kerr makes a dollar, God gets a dime.*

The Kerr headquarters in Los Angeles show the marks of the partnership. The walls of the president's big office are covered with religious paintings. A well-thumbed Bible is always on the desk. Behind it last week Mrs. Ruth Kerr, 55, a widow with 13 grandchildren, started her 25th year as head of Alexander H. Kerr & Co. and its subsidiary, Kerr Glass Mfg. Co. (which sells the home-canning jars the parent company makes).

Ruth Kerr is a blue-eyed, plump, soft-spoken woman who believes that the Lord will provide, but that a body ought to help Him all she can. She has increased the company's output elevenfold, partly by branching out into making jars for industrial canners. She walks around her plants in sensible shoes, and shuttles between factories by plane. Last year her company turned out more than 100 million jars, not far behind Muncie's Ball Brothers Co., the biggest U.S. canning-jar maker. Last week, in a nip & tuck battle with Ball for the No. 1 spot, Mrs. Kerr launched her biggest advertising campaign yet.

The Partnership. Ruth Kerr is a Baptist. "Anything I've done," she says earnestly, "was accomplished because of what God has done." God has been a partner in the company since 1902, when debt-ridden Alexander Kerr, an obscure wholesale grocery man, took the tithing vow at Portland, Ore. Three months later, Kerr took a chance: he borrowed money to buy a patent on a glass vacuum jar that could be sealed at home. Kerr got a San Francisco glass works to supply his materials, and in four years had a profitable business.

In the San Francisco earthquake of 1906, he was first informed that the factory was "undoubtedly destroyed." Instead, the factory was "miraculously saved." After that, the Kerrs never doubted that God was on their side. When the two-piece lid (invented in their kitchen in 1915) boosted their business, Kerr gratefully took to putting tithing leaflets in every case of jars.

The Matriarchy. When Kerr died in 1925, Mrs. Kerr stepped into her husband's job. She set up research laboratories, and showed a genuine flair for promotion. She offered university scholarships as prizes in canning contests, sent out salesmen in a fleet of 40 Fords with giant Kerr jars jutting from the rumble seats.

To keep her employees happy, she set up group insurance, retirement and medical plans, awarded gold badges and bonuses for good work. Since many of her 600 employees are women, she promoted women into executive jobs. Such benevolent maternalism allowed her to run an open shop for years. When the union arrived in 1946, it was a conservative union of which Mrs. Kerr could approve. The A.F. of L.'s Glass Bottle Blowers' Association hasn't had a major strike in 58 years.

Mrs. Kerr still has time for prayer meetings and choir practice, In her way of life, religion and business are inextricably mixed. Whenever a Kerr glass furnace is relit after a shutdown, a minister is called in to ask a blessing.

Threatened by the spreading use of home freezing units, she is not unduly perturbed. She believes that the Lord will continue to provide, with the help of a revolutionary new product which she plans to market in a few months.

* Through religious, educational, missionary and charitable organizations.

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,805089,00.html

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Bob Sheilds Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 9:43 am:

Nice article Don. If the Kerr family was giving out of love it was not tithing. They may call it tithing and to be sure preachers and religious organizations have been giving the laity this false information for centuries. The Israelite tithing system was set up as an obligational requirement for certain Israelites. It had nothing to do with giving out of love.

The Marriott hotel chain tithes to the Mormon church. They claim a blessing from God. Would you agree? Milton Hershey triple tithed and then gave all his fortune to his private school. Many successful companies tithe and many successful companies don't. The claims of the ones that do say it is because of tithing. The claims of the ones that don't say it is because of hard work and good business practices. I suspect that the later claim would cover both since God has never required companies to tithe.

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Don Sands Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 12:21 am:

"It is part of a man made scheme reaching beyond one's own interests to help in the Gospel enterprise in a systematic way."

Accounting is a "man made scheme". Should the church not have accountants? Some Christians have the idea that "man made schemes" are wrong. The whole of life, in its orderly format, is a man made scheme. God expects us to be orderly and wise. I submit that the "man made scheme" of tithing is not wrong. What is wrong is the overbearing and oppressive attitude taken by some in administering a good idea.

In 1859, James White led the fledgling Adventist Church into a "man made scheme" to bring order to the work being done. Here is part of The Address

quote:

...   We, therefore, brethren, urge upon your consideration the subject of Systematic Benevolence,   

1. Because it is scriptural. “Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.” 1 Cor. xvi, 2. “For if there be a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not. For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened: but by an equality,” &c,

2 Cor. viii. 12-14. “That the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not of covetousness. But this I say, He which sow- eth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity; for God loveth the cheerful giver.” 2 Cor. ix, 5-7.   

These texts relate to one purpose which the Apostle was endeavoring to accomplish, which was, to send relief to the poor saints which dwelt at Jerusalem. We may learn from Acts ii, 44, 45; iv, 32-37, the reason why such assistance was needed by that church. They had expended their means in the cause of God at the very commencement of the work, and were thus reduced to poverty.

Hence when Agabus stood up at Antioch, and signified by the Spirit that there should be a great dearth throughout the world, ” the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judea; which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Paul.” Acts xi, 27-30.   

It was fifteen years after this, that Paul wrote to the Corinthians to engage them also in this benevolent work. In the text cited from 1 Cor, xvi. he proposes the method which should be adopted by the churches in the prosecution of this object. And in the texts quoted from the second epistle he shows the motives that should actuate them in this work. That the great Apostle succeeded in this effort appears from Rom, xv, 25-31. “But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia (Corinth was a city of Achaia) to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.”

We have an account of Paul’s visit to Jerusalem with this bounty for the saints. Acts xxi, 15. “And after those days we took up our carriages, and went up to Jerusalem.” The word rendered carriage is literally baggage; and such was once the signification of the word in English. Thus much respecting the circumstances that stand connected with Paul’s directions to the Corinthian church, It remains that we gather from these facts some instruction relative to our own duty.   

If Paul found it essential to complete success, that method should be observed in raising means for benevolent purposes, it is certainly not unreasonable to conclude that we should find the same thing beneficial in promoting a similar object.   “Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store as God hath prospered him,” &c. This implies,

1. A stated time for the business; viz., the first day of the week.

2. The concurrent action of each individual; for he adds, “let every one of you” lay by him in store.

3. And this is not a public collection, but a private act of setting apart for the Lord a portion of what one possesses.

4. The amount to be given is brought home to the conscience of each individual by the language, “as God hath prospered him.”

How may we reduce to practice these excellent suggestions? We recommend the following plan, which we think all, with very few exceptions can adopt:   1. Let each brother lay by him in store on the first day of each week from two to twenty-five cents.  2. Each sister lay by her in store on the first day of each week from one to ten cents.  3. Also, let each brother and sister lay by him or her in store on the first day of each week from one to five cents on each and every one hundred dollars of property they possess.   

Each church may choose one of their number whose duty it shall he to take the names of those who cheerfully act upon this plan, and also the sums they propose to give each week, and collect these sums on the first of each month, and dispose of them according to the wishes of the church. Those scattered, and not associated with any church, can act for themselves, or for their households, in the same manner. If more convenient for farmers, and others to pay once in three or six months, let them do so.

  ...   Review and Herald, June 9, 1859, page 21

This plan was adopted before the Seventh-day Adventist Church formally became an organization.

James White was a great advocate of personal freedom. Notice, that in his address, he does not advocate severe control. Such control came later when leaders of smaller scope took charge.

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Cadge Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 9:17 am:

"James White was a great advocate of personal freedom. Notice, that in his address, he does not advocate severe control."

Huh?

"Each church may choose one of their number whose duty it shall he to take the names of those who cheerfully act upon this plan, and also the sums they propose to give each week,..." (James White)

--------
Take the names? That's control. What ever happened to:

Mat 6:3 when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

Mat 6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

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Don Sands Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 4:57 pm:

James White did address the issue of secrecy in all giving.

quote:

Third objection. ” When we do alms it should he in secret, and should not sound a trumpet.” Very well, it is hoped that in giving alms to the needy, all will carry out the principle laid down by our Master, and not be guilty of the sins rebuked by him in Matt. vi. 1-4. Says Paul, “He that giveth, let him do it with simplicity.” But we are urging a system, in strict accordance with the teachings of the apostle Paul, to sustain, those who preach the gospel, which he makes a matter of indebtedness.

Did Paul give orders to the church at Corinth, which were in violation of the teachings of our Lord in regard to almsgiving? Never. It is to be feared that the common plea for secret giving, is but an excuse for giving little or nothing, and reminds us of the declaration of one who said, “What I give is nothing to nobody.” Probably he told the truth. Satan would be highly gratified to see some very conscientious over-perverted ideas of some scriptures, and tie their hands in this way, and hinder them from acting with the body on plain declarations of the word of God.  

I can imagine this plan for systematic benevolence working without the taking of names. To be consistent about complete secrecy in givi ng you would have to refuse to be receipted for your donations, wouldn't you?

Further, I had a member of a church styled in a congregational format tell me how the minister and his family suffered around Christmas time because the members were too busy with their own finances to provide their regular assistance to their minister.

The tithing and conference system helps stabilize such needs of Gospel workers.

Can you offer a working model to demonstrate how your concept of giving for the Gospel ministry is successful?
---------------------------------------------

Bob Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 5:41 pm:
Well Don, the church does need accountants, I suppose, but the church isn't telling the laity that they must have accountants because the Bible says so. And if you don't have accountants you certainly are not pleasing God and therefore are sining and in danger of hell. If the church agrees to tax each other, fine with me. Just don't ram Malachi down the throats of the unsuspecting.

I notice that James' plan didn't work, so the hierarchy got together once more and came up with the inequitable modified tithing system. Inequitable because if James made a $100 a week hawking Ellen's books he paid $10. The poor farmer, who couldn't raise hogs and bacce (tobacco for those who do not live in TN)anymore, only made $10 a week and had to pay $1. James had $90 dollars left to live pretty good on and the farmer had $9 left to semi starve on. Now tell me how fair the modified tax is.

-------------------------------------------

Don Sands Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 7:30 pm:

Now tell me how fair the modified tax is.

I am not opposed to reforming the "tithing" plan used by the SDA church. Tithing, as practiced by the SDA Church is an adaptation of the Biblical principle. Practicing the tithing principle brings "Malachi" announced blessings in its wake; "natural" blessings from God.

It is wrong to ram a "cheerful giving" plan down anyone's throat. The "tithing plan" can be practiced as a systematic "cheerful giving" plan. The error is not in adapting a simple tithing principle; rather, it is when an oppressive attitude is taken in oversight.

As a teacher, I have seen the other side where leaders have been very understanding of personal circumstances and financial difficulties.

Church leaders should lead in matters of giving, IMO.

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Cadge Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 8:36 pm:

"To be consistent about complete secrecy in givi ng you would have to refuse to be receipted for your donations, wouldn't you?"

I'm glad you brought that up. After I joined the SDA church and after the New year came in, I was handed some paperwork from the church secretary. I asked, what is this?

She stated that it was my record of tithe and offerings.

I said, why do I need this? She said, for tax purposes. I immediately thought, why would anybody even begin to think to take a deduction and if one did then they really didn't pay 10 percent of their income or fully their offering. The burden was passed on to the unsuspecting American taxpayer, which I'm sure would not be happy about it if he knew.

Then I thought, how about people from other countries that are faithfully paying their tithes and don't get a write off?

Receipt? Pick it up at the pearly gates.

A sucessful giving model? Sure, People give what they can afford and Congregations; the money stays in house for all the local needs and sending missionaries to start new churches. And Don, as a pastor, you would get your proper respect.

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Elaine Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 8:46 pm:

With local churches paying, the good pastor is paid. With the SDA tithing system, a church may have a pastor who is mediocre or worse, and stays and stays. Such a pastor has little incentive to improve as his salary is guaranteed.

What other professions offer such a sweet deal?

Do pastors often get fired? What is the retention rate? Don't they get "chosen" by a conference who pays for the postgraduate studies, obligating them for several years' at the conference? How many students graduating college get such a deal: tuition paid and guaranteed job on completion?

It's your tithe $$$ at work.

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Cadge Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 7:23 pm:

Here's some stories I "borrowed" from a Former Adventist site:

My church (non-denominational) announced yesterday that anyone who was in need, either because they could not pay their bills, or because they could pay bills but with nothing left over, could turn in a request on Sunday for two separate monthly bills to be paid by our church family on a one time basis. So for example, people can turn in a request for their mortage to be paid for one month, as well as a car payment or whatever! Pastor says we will fulfill at least one of the two, and both if we collect enough. We typically have about 600 adults in attendance on a given Sunday I think.

Now here is the good part--Instead of guilting us into GIVING to those in our body who have a need, He actually said that we would be disobedient and prideful if we did not speak up and ask for what we needed and RECEIVE! He said he believed that we would rob our brothers and sisters of the opportunity to bless us if we were too proud to ask for help!

Amazing.

The church will take up an Acts 2:42 offering on Sunday morning, and those requesting help will recieve a check between 3-5 pm that afternoon!

I am loving this! I believe God will bless this grace being extended to our church family members who are hurting. No requirements, our church doesnt even have formal memebership....

The church also does not request tithe, and offering are UP from last year, despite the economy! I find myself becomming more generous just worshipping in that atmosphere which follows the God-given mandate to take care of the poor, widows and orphans.

I also got to give toward christmas gifts for three families that my Sunday school group is helping, as well as a local home for troubled kids and other outreach sponsored by my church.
God's economy is NOT our economy for sure.

Lori,

Thank you for posting that amazing story about Christian stewardship in your church. Since Seventh-day Adventist churches are required to remit ALL their tithe funds to the local Conference treasury, the consequential effect is that many local church treasurers are scrambling to find enough money left over to pay the utility bills.

Sadly, the boys upstairs grab all their money. Indeed, it is amazing that your church cares enough about their members in these hard economic times to help each other in a significant manner. What a true, benevolent spirit during this Christmas season!

My wife and I are also members of a non-denominational church where no offering plate is ever passed. Our church does not teach tithing either. At a deck at the back of the worship center, there is a small slot labeled simply "OFFERINGS" to facilitate our giving to our one-million-dollar annual budget. Oh yes, in spite of having a new, modern campus, our church is debt-free.

The Gospel breeds generosity wherever it takes root. With Spirit-led giving, the Christian no longer yearns for the laws of Moses to finance the Great Commission. What a stark difference the resurrection life makes in our concern for each other! Soli Deo Gloria!

His grace still amazes me,

Dennis Fischer

http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/m … 1229522918

Cadge
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Bob Sheilds Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 9:26 am:

Don, one problem in the SDA Church is that because of the system they use, the laity is not motivated. The last I saw, tithers represent only 30% of the givers.

Ellen White taught double tithing. She is the one who put her "I saw" on the system you now are using. I truly believe she was bearing false testimony. Why would God put more of a burden on the Christian Church than He put on the Israelites?

I wish there were statistics showing how many have left in discouragement because they couldn't keep up with the demands of the hierarchy.

I call the SDA tithing system the system of coercion.

None of this will ever change because it is being run by those who have lost all reality and are only aware of their own carnal needs.

Wake up, it is not too late.

Bob

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This ends the ATomorrow.Com Thread: The Scandal of Tithe in the Church. Oct2, 2008 – Dec 18, 2008.

Salvaged thread:

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tom_norris · 10-20-14 8:34 pm

I HAVE A QUESTION FOR TOM NORRIS;

After reading your well presented article about EllEN G. WHITE and TITHING, You have stated that Tithe is not a doctrine of the church. And that it is only in the OT but not in the NT.

"Does this means that as we are in the NT, we should not practice tithing? Especially for the ordained ministers of God adding His work?"

Rinnie, Shefa, Vanuatu
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No Tithing in New Covenant

In the Old Covenant, only a small minority of Israelites were Priests. They were called Levites. The doctrine of tithing supported this Old Covenant Levitical caste. Both the Levitical system and Tithing were exclusive to Old Covenant Judaism.

In the New Covenant, a dramatic change in the law and the Priesthood has taken place, and so too in the method used to support the Pastors and other Gospel workers. Unlike the Old Covenant, there are no Levites in the Church, much less a separate priesthood. EVERYONE that believes in Christ is a Priest of God.

Thus it is the Priesthood of All Believers that makes moot the doctrine of tithe. Which is why no Christian practiced or promoted the doctrine of tithe in the early church. It never happened because there was no such doctrine. Tithe in the church is Old Covenant doctrinal error.

Heb. 7:11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

Heb. 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

Heb. 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

1Pet. 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Rev. 5:10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

Adventists for Tomorrow

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#201 12-22-12 6:07 pm

Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

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Re: The Fraud of Church Tithing

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