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Tom said:
Bob2 said: In one place in the article, the author says, the Pharisees made laws that God never created.
Tom said: Agreed. But so what? This proves nothing.
Christ was critizing those oral laws is what it proves. He didn't Reform the Sabbath, but under the OC He indicated what God meant when He gave the Law.
Heb 10:9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second
What did Jesus set a side, and what did He establish? What were the better promises of the second Covenant?? A restrictive Sabbath that the Pharisees demonstrate?
Tom, you do not see the change from Sinai to the time of Christ. By virtue fo the societal changes there life sytle had to change. Example: No more Manna. The Synagogues versus Temple Worship. The Pharisees had man made ideas that were not of God but by their hand.
The definition of work by Jesus and God, is different than our definition and the Jewish definition in Christ's time or at Creation, right?
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Tom, there are some texts after Christ's death I present for you to tell me what you think they mean:
Luke 24:45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
If Christ was reforming the Sabbath as you say, why weren't the disciples pleased at what He said or understand the Gospel? Because they were expecting a different Kingdom of what Jesus spoke of.
Gal 1:11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.18 Then after three years,....
Three years before he went to Jerusalem, and wastaught by God about the Gospel and the Kingdom of God. Man had no time to polute what he saw from God. If the Sabbath was important to the Gospel, don't you think he would have said that he was shown the Sabbath was still to be kept???
Acts 26: 15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’
“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
19 “So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. 20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds. 21 That is why some Jews seized me in the temple courts and tried to kill me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
Shouldn't our era of the Church be studying more about what Christ told/shown Paul. It sounds like Christ showed Paul more than what is in the Gospels (the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke , and John) Sounds like Christ was one on one with Paul for three years getting his MESSAGE, the GOSPEL. He knew Judism, and was a persecutor of Christians until Jesus appeared to him.
You rely on the Gospels, almost solely when here it says Jesus would show him what he was to teach. SDAs stay in the OT when here is where their study should be, not just hte Gospel, but Paul's God given message which is the Gospel.
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Since Tom has been known to delete posts of mine, I will respond from this thread, anything to do with his reformed Sabbath.
Tom you have not shown that the rules of the Sabbath Jesus points out to the Pharisees that Jesus meant them as a Reformed Sabbath, but only showing how He and His Father wanted the Sabbath kept under the OC.
Notice these texts that speak for themselves if you will let them Tom:
1. Galatians 3:19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.
2. Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
3.2 Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
4. Heb 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.
5. Hebrews 10:9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.
6. Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
7. Heb 4:7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.”
8. Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[e] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
9. John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Tom if you don't study the Bible, the whole Bible with regard to the Covenants, and don't realize the OC Law is not transcovanental you will not see the above . God expanded on the Old Covenant Law and much more. Another question if in item 8 above you are keeping your Reformed Sabbath, what does "make every effort to enter that rest" mean? Is it not talking of the Christian's heavenly rest, their reward. Also, John 5:16 compared to Gen 2:1-3 sheds new light on what God considers work, eh???
10. Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,
15. Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
16. Heb 7:18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:
“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”
22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.
Last edited by bob_2 (08-23-11 2:10 pm)
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The following 4 articles are written by one of the New Covenant Scholars, John Reisinger. Notice that NCT is rather new, and Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism have been around longer. You and tSDAs are Covenant Theology in how you approach the Bible and the Gospel. These will give you a better understanding of NCT.
http://www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index047.htm
http://www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index048.htm
http://www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index049.htm
http://www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index050.htm
Study the Covenants, they have the answer to a lot of mystery in the Bible. This is the problem with tSDA and your Reformed Sabbath Gospel. You preach ANOTHER Gospel than what Paul wrote about.
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Bob2 said: Tom, there are some texts after Christ's death I present for you to tell me what you think they mean:
Tom said: They do not mean the Gospels are to be ignored or the written teachings of Jesus marginalized, subordinated to unwritten myths and speculation. Sorry.
If one does not understand the Gospels, (which were written after Christ’s death, but features his earthly ministry before the cross), there is little chance they will comprehend the rest of the NT correctly.
Anyone trying to be a Christian must FIRST understand Christ and his teachings. THIS is the basis, the foundation, for the Christian Faith.
The facts are clear, Jesus taught the Gospel to his disciples. They had a hard time understanding it, as did all the Jews. Only after the cross did they better understand the points he was trying to make. The apostles, after the cross, wrote this down for our edification, which is called the NT.
When the Gospel Story is read honestly, without the many Gentile manipulations and false traditions, it will become apparent that there are no passages that would allow anyone to think that Christ is NOT the head theologian of the Church, having all authority for Gospel doctrine.
No one, whether Peter or Paul has any right or authority to defy Christ and change HIS Gospel or his view of the Sabbath. This is why Peter and Paul had their Galatian meltdown. Peter was making some unauthorized changes to Gospel doctrine, and Paul would not allow it.
The Church is to follow Christ, not invent reasons why they don’t have to. Many today run to Paul because they don’t understand Christ. But Paul is not the head of the church, nor is their any salvation from Paul.
1Cor. 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
This idea that Paul, who was an enemy of the Gospel for many years, became smarter than Christ, or that he somehow has earned more doctrinal authority, or has more information, - is absurd.
1Cor. 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
1Cor. 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Cor. 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
1Cor. 15:5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
Note that Paul “received” his Gospel from others. Thus he is under Christ, in all respects, at all time, in every way.
If you want Eternal Life, you must first understand and embrace Jesus, as well as Paul, who does the same thing. If you think they are opposed to one another, then you have understood neither. So it is with NCT.
Jesus is the savior of the Church. Not Paul. Jesus represents the NC, and he is the one that invented, promoted, and defended to the death, the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath for the church. Those who deny this Gospel fact are denying Christ and the Gospel Story.
Are you sure this is what you want to do? Are you certain that NCT is worth defending, even if you lose your soul?
Wake up Bob, and hear the Gospel…Paul does not support your NCT heresy.
Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Bob2 said: If Christ was reforming the Sabbath as you say, why weren't the disciples pleased at what He said or understand the Gospel? Because they were expecting a different Kingdom of what Jesus spoke of.
Tom said: There is no “if” about it. Jesus clearly and repeatedly promoted a “reformed” and very “active” doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, - in all four Gospels. This obvious, self-evident fact cannot be refuted.
Jesus apostles in training witnessed these dramatic Sabbath debates and healings that took place every 7th day of Christ’s Gospel ministry. They were caught in the middle of them, being called Sabbath breakers.
Matt. 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.
Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
The apostles understood that the NC Sabbath was important to Christ, even critical to understanding the Gospel, and that is why they wrote it down in all four the Gospels for us to read and obtain Eternal Life.
If there were more Gospels, like 5, 6, 7, or 8, they too would all contain the NC Sabbath teachings of Christ that caused so much debate between Jesus the leaders. Why? Because these Gospel debates are very important. If you don’t understand what is taking place between Jesus and the Jews over the Sabbath, you will not be able to fully understand the Gospel.
Furthermore, John was an eyewitness to these Sabbath debates, even as he too was called a Sabbath Breaker. He was there when Christ declared himself to be the Lord of the active, Gospel Sabbath, and this is why John refers to the NC Sabbath as the “Lord’s Day.”
Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day…
No one was correctly expecting the NC Lord or a reformed Lord’s day in the 1st century. They were all surprised and amazed at Jesus many strange and new teachings, including and especially his new view about a working Sabbath that was subordinated to the Law by the Gospel, even as all were made Priests of God.
Jesus taught a very different NC Sabbath doctrine because the (NC) Gospel is very different from the OC. Thus the battle between the OC and the NC is reflected in the Sabbath debates. Misunderstand these historic discussions that led to the cross, and you will misunderstand the Gospel as well as the NC Sabbath and the Two Covenants.
The correct doctrine of the Sabbath can only emerge when the Gospel is correctly taught. The two go hand in glove. This is why in the last days, (in Rev 18), when the genuine Gospel is promoted with power and precision, the Reformed Sabbath will also be featured. Thus condemning all, and forcing all to either defend their false traditions or repent and believe the genuine Gospel.
Those that follow NCT are condemned. So too the SDA’s. They should be the first ones repenting for their false Gospel and OC Sabbath, which are supported by the doctrine of Levitical tithing. Shame on the SDA’s…
Bob, listen to me. Run from NCT. Repent of this double-talk and resolve to find the true Gospel and the one and only NC Sabbath that is part of the “law of Christ.”
Don’t let any cult, large or small, steal Eternal Life from you.
Bob2 said: Three years before Paul went to Jerusalem, and was taught by God about the Gospel and the Kingdom of God.
Tom said: Before Paul ever heard the Gospel, Jesus had already taught a number of people about the Gospel. He entrusted them to write out the important facts about Jesus Gospel ministry, including the Passion Week and the resurrection. Paul had zero to do with this.
The apostles lived with Jesus for three years, watching and learning from the Master. They wrote down the teachings of Jesus, as the Word of God in the Gospels. These books contain Jesus authentic Words. Those that refuse to admit this fact, ignoring the teachings of Christ for any reason, will be lost. And Paul will not be able to save anyone that is so foolish.
Christians must follow Christ, and so too must Peter and Paul.
Bob2 said: Man had no time to pollute what he saw from God.
Tom said: Man is so “polluted” that he can ruin anything easily and quickly. So you are talking nonsense.
Bob2 said: If the Sabbath was important to the Gospel, don't you think he would have said that he was shown the Sabbath was still to be kept???
Tom said: Pay attention: Jesus never taught that the OC Sabbath was to be “kept” in the NC! But he did defend the reformed, active Sabbath over and over. This is a fact of the Gospels. It is not up for debate.
This is why the Jewish leaders became so angry with Christ. He promoted a version of the Sabbath that they repudiated, and then he said God told him to do it.
So you need to stop changing the Gospel Story and pretending that there is no Gospel Sabbath and that it is not important.
While the Sabbath as a doctrine may not be important to you, or any that adopt the false and rabid anti-Sabbatarian views of NCT, it was very important to God, Jesus and the Jews, as well as the Gospel writers, because they all have plenty to say about how Jesus dealt with the Sabbath.
In fact, Jesus’ “reformed” view of the Sabbath was so important, that he died to defend this Gospel doctrine, even as this was the primary reason why the Jews sent him to the cross.
Jesus testifies that God the Father showed him this new Sabbath. The Jews became outraged at such a claim. Any that follow Jesus, in the hope of Eternal Life, have no choice but to believe the Words of Christ and follow his Gospel view of the Sabbath.
Bob2 said: Shouldn't our era of the Church be studying more about what Christ told/shown Paul.
Tom said: The church, at all times, in every era, must listen to Christ, its head and savior.
I repeat: The first priority of the church is to carefully listen to Christ and follow his teaching. He is the head theologian and grand interpreter of the church. This is why the Gospels are in the front of the NT, before the writings of Peter, Paul and all others. They contain the Words of Eternal Life from the Son of God.
John 6:66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
John 6:67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?”
John 6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
John 6:69 “We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”
Jesus is the author of the Gospel. His words, recorded in the Gospels are THE source of Eternal Life for everyone that believes. No one, either in the church or outside, has any authority to change, challenge, or refute anything that Christ says, much less to ignore or refute his Gospel teaching. This goes for Peter and Paul, and for you and me.
Jesus primarily speaks to the Church through the Gospels, and through his apostles in the NT, and again through the PAJ in Revelation where he condemns every denomination for their false Gospel, wrong Sabbath, and useless works.
Ignore the genuine Christ a your own risk.
Bob2 said: It sounds like Christ showed Paul more than what is in the Gospels (the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John)
Tom said: Ha! It sounds like you want to change the Gospel Story and speculate about myths, ignoring what is plainly written.
It appears like you are trying to marginalize and avoid the teaching of Jesus at all costs, even to the point of pretending that Paul knows more about the Gospel than Jesus. The word for this type of behavior is “blasphemy.” Are you sure that NCT is worth such a reckless and suicidal defense?
Wow! It sounds like you need to repent, because you are heading away from Christ, and away from the Gospel with every post. You must repent of NCT and change direction before it is too late.
Bob2 said: Sounds like Christ was one on one with Paul for three years getting his MESSAGE, the GOSPEL.
Tom said: The Gospel was preached before Paul knew anything about. He was not around during the ministry of Christ, and he enters the story as one who worked with the Jewish leaders to destroy the Gospel. Such evil actions, and the repentance that followed, will never qualify anyone to understand the Gospel better than Jesus or better than those who wrote down the Gospel Record.
Jesus spent far more “one on one” time with Peter, James, and John, as well as some others. Paul missed out on the entire ministry of Christ, not even being around at the cross.
This is why Paul could never have written the Gospels and why he gives no eyewitness accounts of the Passion. Those closest to Christ wrote the Gospels, which features the Words and acts of Christ, the Son of God.
Paul was fortunate to be selected as an apostle, and he admits this fact.
1Cor. 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
Paul’s letters to the various churches are full of Gospel truth and instruction, but they are not to be compared with the Gospels. The life and teaching of Jesus is superior to anything and everything that has ever been published in the entire world.
Those that seek Eternal Life must go directly to Christ, IN THE GOSPELS, not to Paul, to learn the Gospel. (Just like he did.)
No one can learn the Gospel unless and until they understand and embrace the teachings of Christ. THIS is the source of the Gospel, including anything that Peter or Paul ever wrote or said. Reject this fact at your own risk.
Bob2 said: Paul knew Judaism, and was a persecutor of Christians until Jesus appeared to him.
Tom said: Jesus knew Judaism much better than Paul, even though Paul was the most educated, cultured, and polished of all the apostles.
It is hard to think of the NT without him because he wrote so much of it and built up the Gentile church. But he was not around during the ministry of Christ, and thus we must first embrace the Gospel Record, including the teachings of Christ, which are featured in this section of the NT. The Gospel Story does not start or end with Paul. Sorry.
In other words, no one can do an end run around the Gospels and go to Paul, or James or Peter to refute the teachings of Christ. If you think Paul is more correct about the Sabbath than Jesus, then you misunderstand both Paul and Jesus.
Do you understand this point?
Bob2 said: You rely on the Gospels, almost solely when here it says Jesus would show him what he was to teach.
Tom said: Ha! Since when it is wrong to pay attention to Christ? Since when is it a bad thing for a Christian to “rely” on the Gospels for doctrine?
Your own words condemn you, proving that you do not understand proper hermeneutics, nor follow the Son of God.
NCT is against Christ. Keep defending this garbage, and you are a dead man walking. No Eternal Life for those so foolish as to reject the Gospel of God.
Furthermore, the rest of the NT supports Jesus NC Sabbath, aka, the Lord’s Day. Even Paul. Once you understand the NC Sabbath of the Gospels, you will find it in the rest of the NT. But few know what to look for, especially the NCT crowd, which declares there is no Sabbath in the NC.
Bob2 said: SDAs stay in the OT when here is where their study should be, not just the Gospel, but Paul's God given message which is the Gospel.
Tom said: While it is true that the SDA’s are OC minded, not understanding Jesus or Paul, they do understand that there is a 7th day Sabbath for the church. This is a correct point.
NCT is not even that correct. They think there is no Sabbath for the church, either Sunday or the 7th day. This is very wrong. There is, but it is the reformed version that Jesus teaches in the Gospels.
So when you condemn the SDA’s, you condemn yourself because you also embrace Gospel error and a false view of the Sabbath. At least the SDA’s have the right day!
It is time for the Adventist Community to wise up and shift their apocalyptic paradigm forward-- to the 4th Angels Message, which features the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. The real Lord’s Day.
Come on SDA’s! You can do it! The Advent Movement is about to receive new life and energy, if they will only repent and return to the Gospel.
The Adventists must push the Three Angels Messages forward by first repenting of the “schoolmaster Sabbath,” and many other errors, and then embrace the reformed Gospel Sabbath of Christ. Then they can update their outdated eschatology and get about their mission to prepare the church for the end of the world. Who else even has such a timely mission?
This is a time of great opportunity for the Advent Movement.
Rather than waste your time defending the delusion of NCT, which has no eschatology, Sabbath, or theological pedigree, why not promote cutting edge Gospel theology and prophecy?
Why not listen to the risen Christ and embrace “Present Truth” for the 21st century?
The Reformed Sabbath as promoted by Adventist Reform, (meaning Dr. Ford and Tom Norris), is “Present Truth” for the church today. This is why you are having such a hard time trying to dismiss and repudiate it.
But you have clearly failed for all to see. Truth is truth for a reason. Neither you, nor Goldstein, nor anyone, can refute Adventist Reform, which features the 7th day, active Sabbath of Christ.
So Bob, give up NCT, and promote the Reformed Sabbath of Christ, the genuine Sabbath of the NC. Do something worthwhile for the Kingdom of God instead of trying to fight the clear words of Christ.
Use your talents for the genuine Gospel, and continue to promote the Advent legacy of following truth. This is a wonderful characteristic of the Adventist Pioneers, which would make your mother proud.
Follow truth; which is not NCT.
Bob2 said: Since Tom has been known to delete posts of mine, I will respond from this thread, anything to do with his reformed Sabbath.
Tom said: I have taken down a few of your posts because they were just too rude and did not add anything to the discussion. However, rest assured that there is no intention to censor any theological points or criticism from anyone.
Bob2 said; Tom you have not shown that the rules of the Sabbath Jesus points out to the Pharisees that Jesus meant them as a Reformed Sabbath, but only showing how He and His Father wanted the Sabbath kept under the OC.
Tom replied: Jesus teachings are NC in nature. He was not trying to teach or improve the OC Sabbath of Moses. In fact, he was giving an exemption to the 4th Commandment and teaching that all were free to work on the 7th day. Thus he taught a very different version of the Sabbath for all to see.
Bob2 said: Notice these texts that speak for themselves if you will let them Tom:
Tom said: The Reformed Sabbath is found in the Gospels. Why are you avoiding the Gospel Sabbath of Christ? Why do you run away from the Words of Jesus? Christians cannot act this way.
Bob2 cites: 1. Galatians 3:19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.
Tom said: While Galatians condemns the OC Schoolmaster Sabbath of the Jews and SDA’s, it hardly outlaws the Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
Galatians says nothing to indicate that there is no Gospel Sabbath for the church. Moreover, the church has never take such a view from the remarkable Pauline letter.
Bob2 cited: 2. Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Tom said: This passage does not say there is no Sabbath for the church. On the contrary, it admits there is one, even as Paul goes on to teach that no one is to “judge” what the believer does on the 7th day.
If there were no Sabbath in the NC, than Paul would have said that. But he did not. He taught that we are not to let anyone, (especially the Judaizers), make us feel guilty because we are not following their many rules and regulations.
So people need to stop misreading Paul and stop twisting his words to say what they want to hear.
While Paul, the Christian is not under the Law; he is not without the law either. He follows the law of Christ, even as he understands that the Law of God is just and good, even eternal. Why do the anti-Sabbatarians fail to quote the passages where Paul upholds the Law to the church? (Which comes from the teachings of Christ.)
1Cor. 7:17 Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk. And so I direct in call the churches.
1Cor. 7:18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.
1Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
Do you like this teaching of Paul? It includes the Sabbath, at least the NC Sabbath, not the OC Sabbath.
1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under 1the Law, as under 1the Law though not being myself under 1the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
Bob2 said: 3. 2 Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! …
Tom said: This passage is saying that Jesus is much greater than the Law. Which means that Jesus Reformed Sabbath is superior to the schoolmaster Sabbath of the 4th Commandment. And that he has the authority to make such a change not only to the Sabbath, but also to the Priesthood.
Jesus first taught a changed Priesthood, and then he based his reformed Sabbath on this proposed change.
The Jews did not like this proposed elimination of the Levites, or this new Sabbath that removed the Preparation Day, upended the teaching of Moses.
This passage is also saying that people must turn away from the law to the teaching of Jesus. Why? Because the Gospel is greater than the law, and this is exactly what the Reformed Sabbath teaches every week. It is a Sabbath of freedom and innocence from law, thanks to the Word of Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath.
Thus there are no rules against work or play, even as this day is still the weekly congregational day for the new Israel, the Church, to meet and praise God for his Gospel. Nor is anyone set up to “judge” our Sabbath behavior.
Bob2 cited: 4. Heb 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.
Tom said: Jesus Reformed Sabbath is based on the abolishment of the Leviticial Priesthood and the establishment of the Priesthood of all Believers. This proposed change in the Priesthood, allowed him, the High Priest, to give Sabbath exemptions to all. THIS was the theological basis for the active, Gospel Sabbath.
Just as the Priests in the OC were allowed to work on the Sabbath without guilt or sin, so too in the NC. Who knew? This doctrine has been in the Gospels from the beginning of the church. The reason no one understands it correctly is because they don’t know the Gospel, or the teachings of Jesus as they claim. This is why Christ calls all in Laodicea to repent, because they are all wrong.
Bob2 cited: 5. Hebrews 10:9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.
Tom replied: Jesus claimed that it was God’s will that he, and everyone, work on the NC Sabbath. The Jews would not believe him. They did not want to “set aside” their Priesthood, Temple, or Law, of which the OC Sabbath and the Friday Preparation day were such a large part. They hated his NC Sabbath, which was symbolic of his Gospel teaching, and thus they tried to stamp it out.
Bob2 cited: 6. Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Tom replied: Christ made the OC Sabbath obsolete. Which is why he teaches a NC Sabbath.
Bob cited: 7. Heb 4:7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.”
Tom said: Hebrews will not help any anti-Sabbatarian. In fact, this book, written by a Jewish Christian for Jewish believers, establishes Christ as Creator, defends the 7th day Sabbath as an ongoing doctrine in the NC, and urges the believers to keep meeting on this special Gospel day.
Bob2 cited: 8. Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[e] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
Tom said: This passage is not anti-Sabbatarian. It is the opposite. Do some study and learn the facts.
The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242
Bob2 cited: 9. John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Tom said: This passage supports the reformed Sabbath of Christ. It does not say that there is no Sabbath, or that Sunday is now the Gospel Sabbath. Why would you even quote such a passage?
Bob2 said: Tom if you don't study the Bible, the whole Bible with regard to the Covenants, and don't realize the OC Law is not transcovanental you will not see the above.
Tom said: I have been studying the Two Covenants for more than 40 years. This is what the hidden 1888 documents were trying to cover up. The SDA leaders did not want anyone to know that this was the topic that destroyed their Battle Creek Empire.
Why? Because they know it will happen again should this debate become public. And it is becoming public for all to see.
Bob2 said: God expanded on the Old Covenant Law and much more.
Tom said: I thought you said he “abolished” the Law? How can something that is gone, become “expanded?”
Your confusion is apparent. It is a great error to think nothing in the OC survived in the NC. This was the position of Marcion, the great heretic who also claimed that the OC was totally abolished. He even went so far as to claim that the God of the OC was a different God than in the NC.
But of course they are the same God, which disproves this myth that nothing in the OC can become part of the NC. This is an absurd position that was correctly rejected by the church Fathers long ago.
Bob2 said: Another question if in item 8 above you are keeping your Reformed Sabbath, what does "make every effort to enter that rest" mean?
Tom said: It means that we are to make every effort to understand the Gospel. This is what Jesus teaches.
Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
John 6:27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
Bob2 said: Is it not talking of the Christian's heavenly rest, their reward? Also, John 5:16 compared to Gen 2:1-3 sheds new light on what God considers work, eh???
Tom said: The passage is trying to encourage the vacillating Jews to embrace the Gospel of Christ, and not give up their hope of Eternal Life.
Bob2 cited: 10. Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,
Tom said: The “new man” is now called a Christian. This is the NC Israel of God; the Church.
Bob2 said: The following 4 articles are written by one of the New Covenant Scholars, John Reisinger.
Tom said: NCT is garbage. I have read their material. There is no hope for this nonsense. It is poison.
NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
Bob 2 said: Notice that NCT is rather new, and Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism have been around longer. You and tSDAs are Covenant Theology in how you approach the Bible and the Gospel. These will give you a better understanding of NCT.
Tom said: New or Old, NCT is garbage. It is based on error and myth, as well as great spiritual blindness.
As for the SDA’s, they too are full of error, myth, and much corruption. But at least they have Protestant Pedigree, as well as some necessary truth for the church.
NCT’s only correct point is that everyone is wrong about the Sabbath. On this point I agree. However, their solution is worthless and wrong. Sorry.
In conclusion, let the Adventist Community rejoice because the Gospel Sabbath of Christ has been found.
Sabbath Reform for SDA’s is now complete.
Here is a new doctrine for the church that reaches back to the 1st century. Back to the original teachings of Jesus in the Gospels.
Here is Gospel doctrine that will condemn every denomination, including the SDA’s. Those that repent and embrace the NC Sabbath, will better understand how the world will end, even as they participate in the final reformation of the church as shown in Rev 18.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for the active, 7th day Gospel Sabbath
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Tom admits:
The Reformed Sabbath as promoted by Adventist Reform, (meaning Dr. Ford and Tom Norris), is “Present Truth” for the church today. This is why you are having such a hard time trying to dismiss and repudiate it
.
I believe enough said. Show us where Des states what he believes the same way as you.
Last edited by bob_2 (08-27-11 5:08 pm)
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I found Des Ford's position:
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/sabbath/DesCovenants.htm
However, he does not deal with Ephesians 2 and the Law dividing Jews and Gentiles, the issue was not just circumcision, and in fact that wasn't even one of the ten Laws. Christ fulfilled the Sabbath Law (Col 2: 16, 17) and declared through His apostles that neither circumcision or noncircumcison is of value and that Gentile and Jew are made one by Christ's Flesh on the Cross.
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Bob2 said: Tom, if you are suggesting that Christ broke any of the Mosaic Law, He could not save us.
Tom said: Christ, the Son of God is above the Mosaic Law. So he could break it all day long and not be guilty. And he did so with his teachings and actions about the Sabbath as well as many other things.
Matt. 15:2 “Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
There are many other examples of Jesus not only breaking, but also abolishing, the OC Law. In fact, Jesus taught that he would do away with all the Levites, as well as with the Temple itself! Such anti-OC teachings prove that Jesus was out to change the status quo of Judaism.
Jesus was out to destroy and dramatically change the OC. He was not trying to obey it for our salvation as some teach.
Jesus came to destroy the OC and set up the NC.
His Sabbath doctrine plays a pivotal role in this transition, and thus the SDB’s and then the SDA’s have been on the right trail. The Gospel Sabbath is going to play a major role in the final reformation of the Church. Just as it shook up organized religion in the 1st century, so it will again in the 21st.
Too bad the Adventists have the wrong Sabbath. Too bad the entire Laodicean Church has the wrong Gospel and a false Sabbath. This must change. This will change, and thus the genuine Sabbath for the true Church of God will emerge for all to see.
Bob2 said: He kept the OC Law perfectly.
Tom said: Jesus was not a Levite. Thus he was breaking the law to work on the Sabbath, as well as to tell others to also break the law. Even worse he said God told him to teach this Reformed Sabbath.
Furthermore, Jesus was out to destroy the OC, not keep it perfectly, which he REFUSED to do. Jesus turned his back on the OC so that he could bring the NC to the world.
So Jesus did NOT keep the OC law perfectly. Which is why he was sent to the cross for Sabbath Breaking and blasphemy, and for trying to destroy the entire OC Temple system, even doing away with the Levites and high priest.
The fact that all this is confusing to you is beside the point.
Bob2 said: I see nowhere He suggests something that breaks the Sabbath.
Tom said: Most everything that Jesus teaches was against the way the Jews viewed things. Jesus taught that it was fine to work on the Sabbath, even as he ignored and repudiated the Preparation Day of the Jews. But Moses teaches the opposite, on pain of death. And so too does God, who wrote the 4th Commandment on tables of stone.
Who was Jesus to make any change to the 10 Commandment law, much less overthrow it and replace it with something new? Only the Messiah would have such authority, but the Jews would not believe Jesus was the Christ. That was the problem. So they fought his reforms, which took place anyway.
This is what the Sabbath debates were all about. Healing was not allowed on the Sabbath, unless there was an emergency. And Jesus made sure to heal people that were not in such a needy state. He was breaking the OC Sabbath on purpose for all to see and follow. I suggest that you do the same thing.
Let all SDA’s take great joy in breaking the OC Sabbath. Let them work, play, worship, and eat, all to the glory of the Gospel of God. The “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the SDA’s is dead, and so too is the OC rules and regulations including this farce whereby the Pastors pretend to be the Levites and the Denomination pretends to be the Temple Storehouse for tithe. This is heresy.
It is time for the SDA’s to REPENT of their OC ways and become NC Adventists. This is what the 4th Angels Message is all about. The last phase of the Advent Movement.
Let those that understand the Gospel comprehend the fact that they are innocent and free from the guilt of law on every day, including the 7th day, where it stands out for all to see. Thus the true believer may work, play, and worship on the 7th day Gospel Sabbath without any fear of sin or guilt. What a remarkable, living memorial to the Gospel!
Jesus had to “break” the OC rules in order to bring in the NC. And so must we today. There was no other way. Let all that are saved make sure their Sabbath is full of active, good works, minus any of the OC rules and guilt.
Look! There is a “new” Sabbath of grace upon grace for all to see and marvel at.
John 1:16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
Bob2 said: Had He (broken the OC law), the Devil would be all over it.
Tom said: Ha! So now you claim to speak for the Devil? You know neither the mind of God or the Devil, so stop speaking for them. You only speak for NCT, and not very well.
Bob2 said: The oral law is what He spoke out about, and the Spirit of Christ Law.
Tom said: Why do you make up false views of the Gospel?
You must know that Jesus addressed the written Torah, as well as the Moral law many times. In fact, the Gospels show that people asking Jesus about the WRITTEN law. (Bob, Have you ever read the NT?)
Mark 12:19 “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that IF A MAN’S BROTHER DIES and leaves behind a wife AND LEAVES NO CHILD, HIS BROTHER SHOULD MARRY THE WIFE AND RAISE UP CHILDREN TO HIS BROTHER.
Luke 20:28 and they questioned Him, saying, “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that IF A MAN’S BROTHER DIES, having a wife, AND HE IS CHILDLESS, HIS BROTHER SHOULD MARRY THE WIFE AND RAISE UP CHILDREN TO HIS BROTHER.
Besides, you must also know that the oral law is based on the written law. Thus to speak about the oral law is to also address the written source. Both of which forbid the activities that Jesus was doing on the 7th day.
Here is but example of many where Jesus addresses the Moral law, that which was written by God and Moses.
Mark 10:19 “You know the commandments, ‘DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.’”
So Bob, stop making things up in order to defend the false doctrine of NCT. This is very wrong and counter productive.
Furthermore, there is no such thing as “the Spirit of Christ’s law.” That is just some made up double-talk to make it seem you know what you are saying, - when you have no clue.
Why not repent of NCT and free yourself of this false theory?
Bob2 said: There is no one that says that the New Covenant has to have a holy day.
Tom said: God is the one who said there must be a holy day in the OC. God’s Son came to earth and took control over this weekly doctrine, re-creating it for the NC church.
Thus, God and Jesus, as well as the Spirit, have placed their seal of approval on the 7th Sabbath; the NC Lord’s Day. So pretend all you want, it is the Word that determines doctrine, nothing else.
Moreover, the OC is the context for the NC. They are closely are forever linked. Which is why the OT is part of the Christian Bible.
Furthermore, both the OC and NC are 100% Jewish. With this fact in mind, how can there not be a Sabbath in both Covenants? There is.
The Church has always practiced a weekly Sabbath, and they were correct to do so because this is what the Gospel teaches.
However, by the 2nd century, they got the wrong day and so too the doctrine, because they treated the 1st day Lord’s Day as if it were the OC Sabbath that prohibited work. (This is why there were Sunday laws). And this is what the vast majority of the church teaches to this very day.
So the church is correctly trying to follow a weekly “holy day,” but they have things confused and wrong. The NC Sabbath is not a “holy day” like it was in the OC. It also not on the 1st day of the week.
Rather, the NC Sabbath is a “Freedom Day” to do good works. Not a holy day to rest and do no work.
Let all repent of this OC, “resting” Sabbath of the SDA’s and even the Sunday keepers. THIS is the wrong Sabbath.
Bob2 said: Why can't you name others that believe the same way as you? Even an article by Des Ford that confirms that you have one who sees it your way.
Tom said: I am glad that you finally understand that Tom Norris and Dr. Ford have the same Gospel theology and the same Gospel Sabbath. Good for you!
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/sabbath/DesCovenants.htm
http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … /intro.cfm
Dr. Ford is an honest, world-class scholar and theologian. He is an expert on Gospel Eschatology as well as the history and the doctrinal development of Adventism. He understands the Word and Church history, even as he correctly defends and promotes the 7th day Gospel Sabbath on level that few can approach. And he has for a very long time. Many have followed his lead, including Tom Norris.
I am proud to stand next to Dr. Ford, the father of Adventist Reform, to proclaim the genuine Gospel, which includes the correct, 7th day, active Sabbath of Christ.
Those that have (correctly) rejected the IJ and embraced the Gospel should know by now that Dr. Ford is on the right path. Unless and until the Denomination apologizes to Dr. Ford for Glacier View, the SDA’s will continue to self-destruct for all to see.
Bob2 said: There are not any commands of Jesus in His life that breaks the OC.
Tom said: Ha! You really don’t know the Gospels very well do you? How can you say such a thing?
Jesus was promoting the elimination and abolishment of the entire Levitical Priesthood and Temple services as part of his active Gospel Sabbath. It is hard to think of him as being OC friendly. He was not.
You must have missed this fact along the way?
Not only that, he was going to become the High Priest of the NC and all that followed him were going to become Gospel Priests who were not allowed under Moses Law. They were also exempt from the law, which is why the Gospel Sabbath becomes such a living lesson on this point.
The Gospel Sabbath underscores the fact that salvation is not by law, but by the authority and power of the Gospel of God.
Jesus teachings are so against the OC, that the leaders were horrified and enraged. He had to die, said the leaders, because he was advocating the overthrow and abolishment of OC Judaism. And so he was…
Let all understand that Jesus was going to dismantle the OC with our without the leaders consent. So even though they tried to stop his ideas from taking hold, they did so anyway, and OC Judaism was destroyed, leaving the Jews homeless until 1947.
Jesus was the greatest “OC lawbreaker” that ever lived. He did more to overthrow, abolish, and destroy the OC than any person in history. To say he kept the OC is utter nonsense and absurdity. He did the opposite. He broke it in a thousand little pieces and threw it into the sea.
Bob2 said: His kingdom He speaks of is the New Covenant.
Tom said: Yes. His Reformed Sabbath was for the NC, for the church. The Reformed 7th day Sabbath is not for legalists, or for any that are not paying attention to Jesus Words.
Bob2 said: Comparing Moses and Jesus, Jesus is a superior Lawgiver.
Tom said: Luther correctly warns us not to think of Christ as if he were a lawgiver like Moses, as if he were a “sheriff.” Jesus did not come to give the law but to save condemned mankind through the Gospel. He is first and foremost our Righteousness and savior before he is our teacher and guide.
Rom. 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom. 5:7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; 1though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
Rom. 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom. 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
Rom. 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom. 5:11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Many Christians think of Christ as a second Moses, a stern Judge who demands obedience to his teachings under pain of eternal death and hell fire. Thus they say we must do x, y, and z or lose eternal life. As if Christ is another Moses with another set of laws. But this is not the Gospel. The law is not the Gospel.
We are not saved by following the law of Christ, which are his teachings, but by his life and death, which are salvific for us through faith. Thus the SDA’s are very wrong to teach character perfection or to think that their “obedience” to either the Law of Moses or to Christ’s teaching, (which they do not know) is salvific. We are saved by Faith in Christ. Not by our obedience or works to Moses or Christ.
This is why the Gospel Sabbath is not about works or law keeping. This is also why there is neither a Preparation Day nor Sabbath breaking observed in the early church Sabbath.
The NC Lord’s Day is meant to be above and beyond the Law, which is why all are free to work on the 7th day Sabbath of Christ without guilt or sin. It is a day that screams freedom from the law, demonstrating that the believer is not under law, but under the authority of Christ.
The Gospel Sabbath is an amazing and sophisticated doctrine that few comprehend. It stunned the Jews and so too it will stun the Gentiles. It is unlike any doctrine the church has taught since the 1st century.
When the Gospel Sabbath is correctly preached, it will cause great debate and study, even as it condemns every denomination. Under the 4th Angels Message, the genuine Gospel and the correct Sabbath is to be clearly and correctly proclaimed to all.
But where are the SDA’s?
Sabbath Reform was part of their mission. The reason why they existed. And now that the goal is coming into sharper focus, they are sound asleep, dreaming OC dreams that make no sense. Pity.
Rev. 16:15 “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”
Bob2 said: Jesus made it clear with His expanded Christ's Law that the Spirit will empower, and that “rest of the soul” is the most important goal for the Christian.
Tom said: Jesus made his views of the Gospel Sabbath very clear, even claiming they came from God. Thus, any double talk that attempts to ignore, change, or manipulate the Gospel Story must be rejected.
Furthermore, there is no such phrase as “rest of the soul” or “soul rest” in the Bible. Stop making things up. You have no right to change the Bible for any reason, much less to defend this nonsense called NCT.
Bob2 said: Not inactivity, but joy because Christ had the power to forgive and grant eternal life, Moses and the OC, including the Decalogue cannot promise that.
Tom said: Your defense of NCT has become irrational and off point.
Bob2 said: I don't refer to your thoughts or writings as garbage, yet you and maybe one other person believes what you say out of all of Christiandom.
Tom said: You have slandered and assailed Adventist Reform countless times, which is your right. However, you have not been able to prove your point, nor to defend NCT, which is utter nonsense and spiritual garbage. It is not credible or true any more than Mormonism or Scientology. Sorry. Don’t shoot the messenger.
NCT is very reckless and irresponsible, even dangerous, because it gives one a false sense of theological hope and superiority over those who are still trying to respect the Word and the law. Better to struggle with the law and the Sabbath then to declare them null and void. That is a certain path away from the Kingdom of God.
Bob2 said: Had Christ altered the OC Law to be able to meet it's tenets, the Devil would have claimed victory.
Tom said: Do not presume to speak for either Christ or the Devil. You are not qualified or empowered to do any such thing.
There can be no doubt that Christ changed the OC Sabbath into a NC version. In doing so, he gave an exemption to all who would follow him as high Priest, thus forever “altering” and abolishing the Levitical Priesthood and the Sabbath.
Jesus and the Gospel are greater than the Law, and this is exactly what the Reformed Sabbath teaches, as well as many other things, including the Priesthood of all Believers.
Bob2 said: But the Lord of the Sabbath has the right to use it as a shadow of the reality He represents in the New Covenant.
Tom said: While Jesus may have the right to do and teach many things, (under God, of course), we can only follow what has been clearly written down in the Gospels.
The fact of the matter is that Jesus does not teach that he is the “shadow” Sabbath, much less that it has been abolished. We must only follow what Jesus teaches, (in the Gospels), not what we want him to teach, or what someone in the 1970’s thinks he taught.
NCT is very much like Gnosticism. It thinks it has uncovered some hidden point about the Gospel. But it has discovered no such thing, even as its’ most fundamental points is based on a false assumption and error.
Bob2 said: To call NCT garbage is an attack on Christ and the Word of God.
Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. So you think that to attack the false doctrine of NCT,- is the same as attacking Christ and the Word? Wow! You anti-Sabbatarians really are full of delusion and double-talk. But you are fooling no one who understands the Word.
2Tim. 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2Tim. 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Why pretend that Jesus supports NCT when he does no such thing? One must be blind to not see the Gospel Sabbath in the NT. And so many are.
Luke 6:39 And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
If NCT were true, there is a great, post resurrection opportunity for Christ to proclaim himself the fulfillment of the shadow Sabbath. But he does no such thing.
While Jesus claims to be many things, like the “alpha and the omega,” and the “Amen” and the “true witness,” he never says he is the Sabbath or its shadow. A fatal point for this new and trite heresy.
Rev. 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
In other words, Jesus cannot be limited to one day, not even if it were the 7th. He is not a 1 in 7 Christ, but a 24/7 Savior. Thus, the beginning and the end cannot also be the 7th day. That is just the end.
To further underscore this point, Jesus shows the impossibility of him being called the Sabbath, as if one day could contain his greatness. Thus he refers to himself in Rev 3: 14 as the “Beginning of the Creation of God,” -not the end, as in the 7th day.
Of course if NCT were true, Jesus would have had to claim that he was the Shadow Sabbath, the end of Creation and the rest of God. But he does not say any such thing, and in fact says the opposite.
Jesus played an active role as Creator, not a passive one, which is why his Sabbath is so active and full of works. And while he is Lord of the Sabbath, he is also Lord of the other 6 days as well. Which further explains why he would never claim to be the Sabbath, our Sabbath rest, as NCT claims.
Rev. 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
NCT makes Christ sick. It literally makes him vomit, and it should do the same to anyone that understands the Gospel correctly. Jesus is not the Sabbath, nor did he fulfill or abolish this memorial to the Creation of all things.
NCT is great error. It is anti-Christ and anti-Gospel. It is a movement led by false prophets to breed more false prophets. It is a scam, designed to trick the lambs into following a false path and false Sheppard.
Matt. 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matt. 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Let all beware the error of NCT. It is not a solution for legalism nor does it resolve the Sabbath debate. It is just more confused and false doctrine that does not hold up under examination. Those SDA’s that have embraced this theology will have to repent and move on to the 7th day, active, Gospel Sabbath of Christ if they are being led by Spirit and the Word.
Come on SDA’s!!
Wake up and get moving forward to the 4th Angels Message. Who knows how much time is left before the Great Tribulation strikes?
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (08-31-11 9:50 am)
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See my response to this on your thread:
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