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Isaiah 42:5 This is what God the LORD says—
the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:
6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
Tom, you have in the past said you did not understand how Jesus could fulfill the Sabbath. This Text says Jesus is the Covenant. Fulfilling the who Old Covenant Heb 8:13. Col 2:16, 17 and 2 Cor 3.
Last edited by bob_2 (08-11-11 6:56 pm)
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Bob 2 quoted: Isaiah 43:5 This is what God the LORD says— the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out, who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it: 6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles,
Bob2 said: Tom, you have in the past said you did not understand how Jesus could fulfill the Sabbath. This Text says Jesus is the Covenant. Fulfilling the whole Old Covenant Heb 8:13. Col 2:16, 17 and 2 Cor 3.
Tom said: Bob it is obvious that are trying to defend NCT at any cost. Thus you are looking around the Bible trying to find some passage that says Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath.
The problem for you is this: there is NO such passage.
Not even in the Gospels, where Jesus teaches and debates the Sabbath doctrine. Which is where it should be. If ever there were going to be such a doctrine as NCT teaches, it would have to come from the mouth of Christ, and be recorded in the NT for all to see and follow.
But Jesus never taught that he fulfilled the Sabbath, much less that he abolished it for the NC church. While he did Reform it, that is very different from abolishing it.
This fact is fatal to NCT. This one point destroys this fanciful anti-Sabbatarian error.
So Bob, stop trying to ignore, change, and embellish the teachings of Jesus. This is forbidden.
Stop looking to Isaiah or Paul or to anyone else for doctrinal instruction about the Gospel Sabbath. One must first look to Jesus. What does he teach about the Sabbath? What does he say about this doctrine? This is what really matters.
As for your latest attempt to manipulate the Word on behalf of NCT, here are some observations.
This passage:
#1. Does NOT mention or discuss the Sabbath.
#2. Does indicate that Jesus is the NC, which is very different from saying that Jesus is the Sabbath.
#3. Jesus never taught that he was the fulfillment of the Sabbath, or that it was to be abolished.
This is why I don’t understand why anyone would take such a position as NCT advocates. It is a position against Christ, the Gospel, and the Word.
#4. The Sabbath is a memorial to Creation, an event in the past. Thus it is not the type of doctrine that can be fulfilled and removed.
#5. NCT is not worth defending. It is based on false assumptions. It is great error to pretend that Jesus fulfilled and then removed the Sabbath. This is not taught anywhere in the Bible.
#6. The use of the proof text method is dishonest and wrong. It will not lead to truth. It is a false methodology that allows anyone to make up whatever doctrines they want. Those who use it will remain confused and unable to comprehend the Gospel.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris, who laughs at NCT
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Tom so Isaiah was wrong, Jesus is just another Covenant, nothing to do with your or my salvation? It doesn't seem to make a difference to you. Jesus asked His followers to put His yoke upon them and He would give them rest for their souls. Matt11:29. You just don't want to get too far a field of the SDA heirarchy for fear their will be no possibility they will listen to you. Your rhetoric is not Reformed, Reformed by Tom, not anything to do with the Reformation, right?
By the way, NCT does not claim to abolish but to fulfill. The archive of the OLD is still valueable as a teacher and historian. It is replaced as Heb 8:13 says, but you still ignor that. Sometimes let the Bible speak for itself, rather than your bias. You are not a Reformer, Tom, and neither am I or NCT. The Bible has always said what it said, even Reformed Theology that is based on the Reformation, is not really Reformed from what the Bible has always said, now is it.
THINK FOR YOURSELF, NOT BY YOURSELF
Look up Col 2:16-17 again and 2 Cor 3. If the tablets engraved in stone, ministry of which brings death, why would you hold on to that???
By the way, was Isaiah correct to say that Jesus is the New Covenant, and then all references of the New Covenant have Jesus in them or interpreting it??? It is not a proof text if it is in the correct context, is it? Show me where Isa 42 is out of context regarding the NC. Without Christ life, death and resurrection, there would not be a New Covenant, but only death.
Last edited by bob_2 (08-11-11 7:21 pm)
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Bob2 said: Tom so Isaiah was wrong, Jesus is just another Covenant, nothing to do with your or my salvation?
Tom said: Ha! You are the one who is wrong. Isaiah never said what you claim he said. No one in either the OC or NC has ever taught what NCT claims. THIS is the problem.
Jesus fulfilled the NC for our salvation. But that is very different from saying he “fulfilled the Sabbath, and now it is abolished.”
The Sabbath is not a doctrine that can be fulfilled or abolished, but it can be reformed, and that is what is taking place in the Gospels. The Sabbath is a memorial to a past event.
Don’t drag Isaiah into your NCT confusion.
Bob2 said: Jesus asked His followers to put His yoke upon them and He would give them rest for their souls. Matt11:29.
Tom said: This passage does not mean that Jesus is the theological fulfillment of the Sabbath or that it is to be abolished in the NC. This is what you are trying to make it mean so you can defend NCT. But you are wasting your time.
Bob2 said: You just don't want to get too far a field of the SDA hierarchy for fear their will be no possibility they will listen to you.
Tom said: Bob, you must not be paying attention. Adventist Reform totally repudiates any hierarchical form of church management, as well as the false doctrine of tithe to support such an organizational error.
In addition, those who promote the Gospel correctly cannot be concerned about how the leaders will react. The Gospel is what it is, regardless of what people may pretend.
The SDA leaders have been called to repent and reform. So your claim that I am somehow going easy on them is absurd. I doubt they would agree with you.
Bob2 said: By the way, NCT does not claim to abolish but to fulfill. The archive of the OLD is still valuable as a teacher and historian.
Tom said: Stop the double-talk. NCT teaches that the Sabbath does not exist in the NC, either on Sunday or the 7th day. They teach that Jesus only re-iterated 9 out of the 10 commandments, omitting the Sabbath. Such points are delusional.
Bob2 said: THINK FOR YOURSELF, NOT BY YOURSELF
Tom said: When it comes to doctrine, no Christian is called to “think for himself.” Jesus never said any such thing.
Bob2 said: Look up Col 2:16-17 again and 2 Cor 3. If the tablets engraved in stone, ministry of which brings death, why would you hold on to that???
Tom said: You fail to understand that the REFORMED Sabbath is not anything like the OC Sabbath “engraved in stone.”
In fact, Jesus NC Sabbath is actually an EXEMPTION from the reach and rule of the 4th commandment.
Thus the Gospel Sabbath is the opposite of the non-working Sabbath of the OC law. It is a sign that Jesus and his followers are above the law, and that the OC is abolished. This is why we are free to work on the Reformed Sabbath without any guilt.
But we are not free to pretend there is no weekly Sabbath. There is no basis for such a position.
Bob2 said: By the way, was Isaiah correct to say that Jesus is the New Covenant, … It is not a proof text if it is in the correct context, is it?
Tom said: You are wrong to try and force Isaiah to say, “Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath.” This is not what he ever said or thought, and neither did Jesus.
So you are the problem, and so too all those that try to make the Bible fit their false doctrines. The SDA’s are experts at playing this game, so I know where you learned this cultic craft.
Bob2 said: Show me where Isa 42 is out of context regarding the NC. Without Christ life, death and resurrection, there would not be a New Covenant, but only death.
Tom said: You are the one that is taking Isaiah, and many other passages, out of context.
You, and all those that embrace NCT, are the ones that refuse to read Jesus teachings honestly, pretending that he never taught a NC version of the Sabbath, when that is exactly what he is doing in the Gospels.
This should not be a hard point to comprehend for anyone that can read the NT. You need to repent of this NCT nonsense. It is silly. Stop wasting your time defending such error.
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Tom said:
You, and all those that embrace NCT, are the ones that refuse to read Jesus teachings honestly, pretending that he never taught a NC version of the Sabbath, when that is exactly what he is doing in the Gospels.
Bob said
1. You claim that Jesus taught a NC version of the Sabbath while only what He is doing is showing how the Sabbath was misapplied by the Pharisees and Jewish leaders. Another text you should be careful when reading:
John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Tom, this is not a NC statement. He was correcting how the OC was meant to be kept, since He and His Father are one. Also note:
Matthew 12:3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
If He was giving a Reformed Sabbath, why wasn't David killed for his entering and eating the shewbread under the Old Covenant???Until His death he had to live perfectly the OC, so the New Covenant did not start until the cross, right?
Last edited by bob_2 (08-12-11 1:57 am)
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Tom, as I have delved into the internet and religious studies and scholars, you are the only one I have seen claiming Jesus was putting in a Reformed Sabbath. I'm open to citations and quotes that I can study further. Here is another site that I found interesting on NCT:
Friday, May 06, 2011
What is New Covenant Theology?
Here's an update to an ongoing work in progress. The recently concluded 2011 John Bunyan Conference in Lewisburg, PA was a good place to think about these things, and an update to this project was a necessary outcome. Again, I am indebted to John Reisinger, Gary Long, Fred Zaspel, Steve West, and Blake White for some of the verbiage contained herein.
Scroll down to the May 06, 2011 article.
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Tom, is Hebrews hard for you to understand, Let the Bible speak for itself:
Heb 10:19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
You also called NCT an everyday covenant. You were so correct because if we rest in him, it IS an everyday relationship!!!!
Last edited by bob_2 (08-12-11 9:27 pm)
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Note this about the New Covenant and Jesus:
80.In the Old Covenant, Israel, the second Adam, was a demonstration and proclamation of Jesus as a type. Israel typified the New Israel and His redeemed New Covenant people of God. That which was true of Israel, in type, is now true of Jesus as the federal head of His new covenant people in fulfillment. Thus, the supreme covenantal formula promised to Israel is now true of the church: Jehovah is our God, and we are His people. Christ, the New Covenant, now dwells among His people.http://breusswane.blogspot.com/
(scroll down to the article May 06, 2011, then scroll down to the 80th point. )
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All Mosaic law is one, not split as adventists do to preserve the Sabbath as they do rather that falling before Christ excited and worshipful as they realize what Jesus has done for us and the daily relationship we should have with him.
46.New Covenant believers, no longer under the law but in-lawed to Christ, are under the grace personified by, expressed in, and given through Jesus Christ. This means that New Covenant believers are no longer under the covenant of Moses and its terms. Since New Covenant believers are no longer under the covenant of Moses, they are no longer under its covenantal law.
47.All behavioral norms, including those detailed in the Decalogue, are ultimately defined by and expressed in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
48.While at times it may be helpful to distinguish between the ceremonial, civil, and moral aspects of Old Testament law, all laws of the Old Covenant were moral since right relationship with the God of the covenant was at stake in the keeping or breaking of those laws.
49.While at times it may be helpful to distinguish between the ceremonial, civil, and moral aspects of Old Testament law, the New Testament treats the law as a singular unit and does not distinguish between these aspects
http://breusswane.blogspot.com/
Last edited by bob_2 (08-13-11 2:55 am)
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This text is all I wish to post here, it is simple but profound:
Ga 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
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Another profound quote:
53. New Covenant Theology insists that the law of Christ is not to be equated with the Decalogue, nor is it to be equated with that work of the law which was on the heart of Adam and all natural men. The work of the law on all men (Romans 2:14-16) causes all men to perceive God’s power and divine nature (Romans 1:20) so that the natural man’s conscience does what the law requires (Romans 2:14) and he is without excuse.
55.Christ is the Law of the New Covenant, incarnating the new standard of judgment as to what "has had its day" in the law and what has abiding validity (Col. 2:17). The Holy Spirit is the indwelling Law of Christ, causing New Covenant members to obey Christ the Law in conformity to His image.
Last edited by bob_2 (08-13-11 3:18 am)
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65.The New Testament and New Covenant Theology do not teach that the Ten Commandments are the objective standard for evaluating the Christian life. Christ is now the objective standard by which all holiness in the Christian life is measured.66.The progression of history to a final New Covenant guarantees the "law of Christ", as personified and incarnated by Jesus Christ, and applied by the Spirit who is written on the heart, to be sufficient for the church.
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Bob said: 1. You claim that Jesus taught a NC version of the Sabbath, while only what He is doing is showing how the Sabbath was misapplied by the Pharisees and Jewish leaders.
Tom said: There is universal agreement that Jesus taught the NC in the Gospels. He was not an OC figure as you pretend. So long as you insist that Jesus teaching is OC in nature, you will never understand the Gospel or enter the NC.
Bob2 said: Another text you should be careful when reading:
John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Tom, this is not a NC statement. He was correcting how the OC was meant to be kept, since He and His Father are one.
Tom said: STOP: Jesus Sabbath teaching is part of the Gospel. That is why it is in the NT; not the OT.
You need to stop fighting against Jesus. You are acting like his enemies in the Gospel Story. You are marginalizing his words and spinning them in a way to support your own false views. This is what the Jews did as well.
This NC passage is about the active, reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ. Here Jesus is defending his radical view of the Gospel Sabbath from those who were obsessed with the OC, Law based, Sabbath of Moses.
Here is a classic debate- OC versus NC.
Furthermore, your claim that Jesus view of the Sabbath is how the OC Sabbath was supposed to be observed is absurd. The OC Sabbath clearly says NO WORK on the 7th day Sabbath. But the NC says the OPPOSITE!
So you need to stop being so irrational and wrong. You need to admit that NCT is based on baseless assumptions and embrace the Gospel teachings of Christ, including what he teaches about the Sabbath.
Can you do that?
Bob2 said: Tom, as I have delved into the internet and religious studies and scholars, you are the only one I have seen claiming Jesus was putting in a Reformed Sabbath.
Tom said: Ha! You need to do more study. And you need to start with the correct source material. Which would be the Gospels. This is where all must start who want to understand correct NC theology. Until you stop ignoring and repudiating the teachings of Jesus, you will never understand the Gospel or the NC Sabbath.
Bob2 said: I'm open to citations and quotes that I can study further. Here is another site that I found interesting on NCT:
Tom said: You need to read the Gospels and study what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Gospel Sabbath. This is the primary source that all must understand correctly. I looked up that NCT site. Here are some points that are easily refuted:
Interpretation of the Bible From NCT Viewpoint
NCT says: 1. New Covenant Theology insists on the priority of Jesus Christ over all things, including history, revelation, and redemption.
Tom said: NCT ignores the Sabbath teachings of Christ and pretends they do not exist. They repudiate Jesus “priority” over the Sabbath and pretend he did not reform it.
NCT says: 2. New Covenant Theology presumes a Christocentricity to the understanding and meaning of all reality. Jesus Christ, who reigns in heaven, has not only reached the goal of history and its reality, he Himself is the goal of history and reality, giving meaning to all that has occurred in human history and will occur in human history. Since it is Christ who gives meaning to human history, he is the One who interprets all of the deeds and acts of God in history.
Tom says: While NCT correctly claims that Jesus “interprets” God’s will in history, they refuse to embrace the Reformed Sabbath that Jesus clearly teaches came from God. Proving that their talk does not meet their actions and that they are great hypocrites.
NCT says: Special revelation, comprised of the 66 books that we call the Sacred Scriptures, not only informs us about God, but redeems us and makes God present to us, focusing on the person and work of Jesus.
Tom says: Part of Jesus work and teaching was to reform the OC Sabbath into a NC version. But NCT ignores and denies this teaching of Christ. Proving that they are blind and confused.
NCT says: New Covenant Theology interprets Scripture after the manner of Christ's and the New Testament writers' use of the Old Testament. Jesus and the inspired New Testament writers, by their use of the Old Testament Scriptures, have left us a pattern by which to interpret not only the Old Testament prophecies, but its history and poetry.
Tom says: NCT is based on a false hermeneutic that ignores the Reformed Sabbath teaching of Christ.
Bob2 posted more about NCT:
65.The New Testament and New Covenant Theology do not teach that the Ten Commandments are the objective standard for evaluating the Christian life. Christ is now the objective standard by which all holiness in the Christian life is measured.
66.The progression of history to a final New Covenant guarantees the "law of Christ", as personified and incarnated by Jesus Christ, and applied by the Spirit who is written on the heart, to be sufficient for the church.
Tom said: The “law of Christ” must also include his REFORMED, 7th day Sabbath, which does not require any OC Sabbath rules against work.
For NCT to pretend that Christ only taught 9 of the 10 Commandments, omitting any Sabbath teaching for the church, is ludicrous and absurd. The facts clearly show this to be false, an impossible point to defend. Which is why NCT is garbage. It is based on obvious error that should be clear to any that can read the Gospels.
Jesus clearly and repeatedly reformed the 7th day Sabbath into a doctrine that few understand correctly today. This should be self-evident from the Gospels. But few really pay any attention to what Jesus actually teaches. This is the real problem.
On and on the double-talk goes with this anti-Sabbatarian crowd. Their views are wrong and worthless. NCT is a useless diversion that leads sinners away from the Gospel.
Let all beware!
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (08-13-11 10:02 am)
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Tom said::
You need to stop fighting against Jesus. You are acting like his enemies in the Gospel Story. You are marginalizing his words and spinning them in a way to support your own false views. This is what the Jews did as well.
Bob_2's response: what an accusation when I tell you and quote for you that Jesus is the New Covenant. The Gospels were still OC. Look at the Samaritan woman, he did not speak of the present but the future. It was not until all the Jews had made a decision with Paul, did he turn to the Gentiles. The Jews expected a warrior king. Look at Peter in the Garden of Gethsemane taking a sword and attacking cutting off the ear of one of the men. Even then His friends or enemies did not accept that He was the Messiah. But had not He been crucified, resurrected, and ascended to the Right hand of God would the Kingdom come.
God made Jesus to be the New Covenant:
Isa 42:5 This is what God the LORD says—
the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:
6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.
The Gospel/NC is Christocentric as it mentions in the article I gave for you to read above. He IS the Covenant fulfilling all of the OC. Heb 8:13.
Also note:
Matthew 21:43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
Even at the Last Supper the Christ spoke of the Kingdom as something to come:
Luke 22:14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”
Here, even before His death He kept the Passover, a Jewish Festival, and spoke of His Kingdom as in the future.
Tom you are the one that demeans Jesus and does not recognize when His kingdom, the NC actually began!!!!And to what extent Jesus is the fulfillment of all the OC.
Last edited by bob_2 (08-13-11 3:40 pm)
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Tom, look up the definition of Gospel. It is what the first four books of the the NT are called. Yes Jesus talked about the Kingdom and the Gospel, but it would not start until His resurrection and ascension.
Heb 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18
There is no Gospel without the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension.
Last edited by bob_2 (08-13-11 3:41 pm)
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Bob, Bob, Bob, you are not being responsive to the points about the Reformed Sabbath that I have raised over and over.
You are obviously unable to address or defend this absurd notion that Jesus teaches only 90% of the 10 Commandments, omitting the Sabbath from the "law of Christ."
While I understand that NCT depends upon this delusion, that is your problem, not mine.
My Sabbath position depends upon the words and teachings of Jesus, as written in the Gospels.
You are unable to show that Jesus did not teach a NC Sabbath doctrine, so you just ignore this point and pretend otherwise. But it won't work. NCT has been exposed as a joke. Jesus clearly and repeatedly teaches a reformed, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. Deny this fact at the cost of your soul. But the facts are clearly what they are, regardless how many have determined to deny them.
Why ignore this key point, and continue to pretend that Jesus Reformed Sabbath teaching, in all four Gospels, was for those in the OC, while his other teachings, also found in the same Gospels, are for the NC? Who made up this strange and false division about the Gospel teachings of Christ? Not any apostle! NOt anyone that understands the Gospel.
Why not stop trying to defend NCT and ADMIT that Jesus DID address all 10 of the 10 Commandments? This point is so obvious that a child could understand it. Jesus teaches a new doctrine of the Sabbath as part of his Gospel Ministry, and I am stunned that any professed Christian would try and pretend otherwise. Have you never read the Gospels?
This error is the basis for NCT. Which means it is based on a a very false and impossible theory.
Unless you can find a credible way to remove Jesus Sabbath teachings from the Gospels, you must repent. But there is no way to hide or remove the Sabbath teachings of Jesus in the Gospel STory. It is everywhere. Thus it is far too late to change such ancient, written, history.
Shame on the leaders of NCT. They are not men of God, but men against God, and against the Gospel.
Shame on any so foolish enough to get involved with this anti-Christ, anti-Gospel teaching.
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Tom you have not:
1. Supplied Scholars that agree with you on a Reformed Sabbath, beside Des Ford, but I have not see his article on it.
2. I have no problem with see Jesus defending the OC Sabbath, but I see no command for a Reformed Sabbath. He talks of the Gospel going into all the world, to the Jews first then to the Gentiles. This puts the ball in your court that the Jews were to keep the Sabbath after His death and the Gospel includes a Sabbath, when Col 2:16, 17 and 2 Cor 3 stare you in the face.
3. If your position on the Reformed Sabbath stands on His words in the 4 Gospels, show where He commands the Sabbath to be kept. He kept it while He lived under the OC. But when I hear Col 2: 16, 17, I wonder how you take Jesus out of the reality spoken of here.
Heb 10: 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.
Tom you are not blind enough to not recognize that Jesus sets the first Covenant aside for the second Covenant.
4. Show me other scholars that believe the same as you and I will study their works, otherwise you are a self-appointed scholar on the topic of a Reformed Sabbath. I have googled it and only your stuff comes up. Reformed Theology of the Presbyterians come close but keep the OC and change the Sabbath to Sunday. Is that your REFORMED SABBATH?????
Last edited by bob_2 (08-13-11 4:39 pm)
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Tom:
68. ....New Covenant Theology denies that the physical principle of Sabbath-keeping can be transferred to the first day of the week, or any other day, without doing violence to the so-called moral aspect of the Sinaitic Covenant’s Sabbath commandment.
69.New Covenant Theology affirms that every Christian is a Sabbath-keeper because every Christian has entered in a rest from works in Christ the Sabbath Rest (Hebrews 4). Sabbath Rest for the New Covenant believer consists of resting or ceasing from works of the law or works of sin and resting by faith in Christ. Christ is our Sabbath Rest because having finished his work on our behalf he now sits at the right hand of the Father. Because Jesus Christ has become Sabbath Rest for his people, every moment of every day is Sabbath for the New Covenant believer. http://breusswane.blogspot.com/
I know you will joke about us resting in Jesus everyday, but this is a beautiful description of the Christian New Covenant life. You don't have to wait 7 days or 3 days, it is the day set by God, Today. Heb 4:7
Last edited by bob_2 (08-13-11 5:01 pm)
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Tom said:
You are obviously unable to address or defend this absurd notion that Jesus teaches only 90% of the 10 Commandments, omitting the Sabbath from the "law of Christ."
Christ fulfilled the whole Law, including the fourth commandment. You have some how seen a way to retain the Sabbath through a Covenant change. The Law of Moses is not Transcovenantal. One must look for the tenets of the New Covenant in the preaching of Jesus of His kingdom to come, the New Covenant, and in directives from the Apostles of Jesus. In Paul's case he was shown by vision what the New Covenant was, and if the Sabbath was as important and salvific an issue, the tenet would be obviously spoken of where it is only spoken of as fulfilled. Col 2:16,17.
Your argument has been all along that Col 2:16, 17 were only speaking of the ceremonial part of the Old Covenant. Heb 8:13 says different. The total covenant, not just 9 out of 10 of the Decalogue but all the Law of Moses, including what was in the 10 Commandments and without the 10 Commandments was fulfilled in Christ. The OC includes the Decalogue, the NC contains what was commanded by Jesus and His Apostles. No command for a weekly rest is given in the New Covenant. I am prepared to be wrong, but it appears there is no command for a Reformed Sabbath in the New Testament. Christ makes clear He is more important than the Sanctuary. In Heb 4 it talks of a Sabbath Rest some have not attained but instructs all to strive for the Sabbath Rest like God experienced at Creation, rest from your work, or attempt to save one self which Jesus does in the New Covenant, erasing the shadow Sabbath as a salvific need, when Christ is now our Sabbath Rest.
Don't get me wrong Tom, you can worship on Saturday, but it should be for the correct reason. But to tell individuals that they must leave family, or jobs, or to cease recreation or other activity, is not Biblical. There is no command about the Sabbath Rest accept as Heb 4 explains what God/Jesus meant by the shadow to a specific people and the Heb 4 discussion of the Rest that will only be found in heaven when translated. We are to "make every effort to enter that rest" as in Heb 4:11.
Last edited by bob_2 (08-14-11 5:34 am)
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Bob2
While you are correct that the seventh day Sabbath was not compelled upon the Gentiles neither were they prohibbited from keeping it. Paul simply says that the day of worship should mot be an issue.
The Deut reason for Sabbath keeping is still valid It is a testimony that we are saved by grace.
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Ole Abe did you mean this text in Deut:
Deut 5:1 Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors[a] that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.
This only says it was a special covenant not with their fathers, and later in Deut 5, God through Moses further puts an identifier on the ones to keep the Sabbath, those saved in the Exodus from Egypt. Where else are you speaking of.
Any Gentile that lived among them was to keep the Sabbath. But the Torah is the whole of the first five books of the Law or Old Covenant. All was made obsolete at the cross. There is only one way to be saved, through Christ. I only pust the issue because the Adventists push it as salvific even though they claim different. Any new convert who does not keep the Sabbath will not be baptized. This point is a salvific point, is it not Tom and Old Abe. If it is not, my argument is concluded.
Last edited by bob_2 (08-15-11 12:46 am)
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Bob said: Tom you have not:
1. Supplied Scholars that agree with you on a Reformed Sabbath, beside Des Ford, but I have not see his article on it.
Tom said: The church has always taught a weekly NC Sabbath or Lord’s Day. All church scholars have defended and promoted this weekly doctrine for many hundreds of years, even to this very day.
So open your eyes and understand that NCT has been correctly repudiated in every age of the church, and by every denomination, Catholic or Protestant.
The fact that Dr. Ford and Tom Norris have pushed this doctrine into a more theologically correct and Gospel friendly place is beside the point.
NCT is garbage. It has no basis to exist. It is made up nonsense. Stop pretending that it has the support of any scholar in history. It is a very late, 1970’s theory that will never be accepted by anyone that can read the NT without prejudice.
These NCT leaders remind me of Weilands & Shorts 1888 delusion that they promoted like an obsession, as if it were true when it never was. There are some in all denominations that like to be novel and lead out in a supposed reform, regardless of the facts.
The NCT leaders need to admit their errors and stop trying to push a worthless and impossible solution to the Sabbath debate. They can print all the books they want, and make CD’s and hold meetings to make their views seem legitimate, but none of these Public Relations stunts will make false doctrine into Gospel truth.
It does not matter if thousands embrace this garbage and legions think it is wonderful. It is still false doctrine that cannot be defended.
Bob2 said: 2. I have no problem with seeing Jesus defending the OC Sabbath, but I see no command for a Reformed Sabbath.
Tom said: You have a big problem, my blind friend. You are not seeing the words of Jesus clearly, nor is the Spirit leading in your confused interpretations.
John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
Why do you incorrectly think Jesus was “defending” the OC Sabbath of Moses? The Jews never thought he was doing any such thing!
Who gave you the right to change the Gospel Story? Stop it. You are not qualified or authorized to edit or change this holy script.
In fact, the Jewish leaders, and the NT authors, and history itself, makes clear that Jesus Sabbath teaching was judged to be against the Law of Moses and God. The Holy Record says that this is why he was sent to the cross.
Jesus Reformed Sabbath amazed the people and outraged the leaders who refused to believe this strange and blasphemous doctrine that upended their legalist traditions and authority.
Pay attention: Jesus was teaching a DIFFERENT version of the Sabbath, very DIFFERENT from what the OC Jews had been observing for thousands of years. This fact is irrefutable. Stop pretending otherwise.
How was Jesus Sabbath different? Was it another day, like Sunday? No. Was it an abolishment and removal, like NCT pretends? No. Or was it an “Every Day Sabbath as one of the Church Fathers suggested? No.
The Gospel Sabbath of Christ was an active, working, weekly Sabbath, where it was no longer a sin to cook, travel, work, play, and live, all within the context of the Gospel teachings of Christ. This is the REFORMED SABBATH OF CHRIST.
Jesus transformed the Sabbath from an OC day of “rest,” with all its passivity, guilt, and fear of lawbreaking into a day of Freedom from the law. A day of activity and Gospel innocence, praise, and good works.
Gone is the OC concept of a holy Sabbath rest. It is replaced with the NC Sabbath of Christ, which features, activity and freedom from the law.
In fact, this NC Sabbath was so powerful, that it actually eliminated the Friday “Preparation day,” which was also a part of the OC, “schoolmaster” Sabbath.
Everywhere one looks in the Gospels, the Reformed Sabbath of Christ jumps from the pages to confront the reader. Here is an epic struggle played out between the OC and the NC versions of the Sabbath.
Let all read these holy clashes and decide where they stand about the Gospel. Those who follow Christ will embrace his, ACTIVE, REFORMED, 7th day Sabbath, while those who don’t, are showing their true colors of unbelief and/or loyalty to the OC.
Bob2 said: He talks of the Gospel going into all the world, to the Jews first then to the Gentiles.
Tom said: Wherever the church has gone through out the world, they always taught and practiced a weekly doctrine of the NC Sabbath. (The fact it was not fully correct is beside the point).
Thus the Sabbath, as a weekly, NC doctrine has always been the default doctrine of the (Gentile church). The SDB’s and then the SDA’s followed as Sabbath Reformers. But regardless, the church has ALWAYS taught and practiced a weekly NC Sabbath, even to this very day.
So NCT is not only against the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath that is emerging from the Adventist Community, but against any Sabbath doctrine on any day, from any denomination.
In other words, they are declaring the church totally wrong on this point, and only themselves correct! Talk about a lack of credibility and scholarship? NCT is a mix of garbage and ego, with plenty of incompetence added for good measure. It is awful scholarship and pure heresy that would have never been accepted by any scholar in the long history of the church. It’s that bad and stupid.
Bob2 said: This puts the ball in your court that the Jews were to keep the Sabbath after His death and the Gospel includes a Sabbath, when Col 2:16, 17 and 2 Cor 3 stare you in the face.
Tom said: I don’t understand your confusion, and I don’t think you do either. Do you even know what you are saying? It’s clear you can’t stick to the point, nor will you address the main point that proves you wrong. Over and over I ask you to address the issues, but like Goldstein, you refuse-- for the same reasons.
It is obvious that you were once a cultic TSDA. This is how they also double-talk.
If anyone wants to understand the Gospel Sabbath, they must go to the source; Jesus in the Gospels. Period! There, all that are honest and led by the Spirit will find the NC Sabbath. Others will see nothing.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
Bob2 said: 3. If your position on the Reformed Sabbath stands on His words in the 4 Gospels, show where He commands the Sabbath to be kept.
Tom said: The commands and pleadings of Jesus to follow his teaching are all over the Gospels. Including his command to follow him even to the cross, which was the direct result of Jesus REFORMED SABBATH doctrine.
Matt. 4:19 And He *said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.”
Matt. 8:22 But Jesus *said to him, “Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead.”
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
Matt. 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
These calls to follow Christ’s Words are clear are they not?
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Luke 6:47 “Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like:
Luke 6:48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the 2torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.
Luke 6:49 “But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”
Those who “follow” Christ, must also follow his teachings. Which include his teaching about the Gospel Sabbath. This is what it means to “follow” Jesus. Those who make up doctrines and ignore the words of Christ are not following him, but repudiating him.
Jesus teaches that NCT is built on sand. So too any that follow the Sunday Sabbath or the “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the Jews and SDA’s. Jesus never taught any of those Sabbath versions and it is time that the Church hears the truth of this matter and repents.
In retrospect, the SDA’s were very correct to teach that the 7th day Sabbath would become part of the final Gospel Message in Rev 18. Now we can see say why. The correct Sabbath doctrine has been in plain sight all along! Thus when Jesus calls for the last church to repent, the Sabbath doctrine is part of the reason, because not one denomination has the true doctrine.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
Too bad the SDA’s failed to properly develop the Sabbath doctrine. And too bad they refuse to repent now and get back to their mission. But they will have to repent, just like everyone else who enters the Kingdom of God. Including these amateurs that dreamed up NCT.
There is only one Gospel and one, NC, Sabbath for the church.
Let all go to the Gospels and sit at the feet of Jesus. To learn what he says about the Gospel Sabbath.
Do not go to the Gospels to argue with Christ or to defend this or that preconceived view. No. No. No. We are not to judge the words of Christ, but to receive them as truth, light, and Eternal Life.
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
All today that oppose the Reformed, 7th Sabbath of Christ, will be doomed at the Judgment. Why? Because they refused to follow the Gospel teachings of Christ, which include his controversial Sabbath that led to his death on the cross.
Those that pretend Jesus teaching about the Sabbath can be ignored and rejected have made a tragic mistake. His NC Sabbath teaching is Eternal. While those that reject it will never reach such a state.
Mark 13:31 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Jesus is no fool. He clearly teaches that those who are “ashamed” of words, like NCT obviously is, will be sorry on the Judgment day.
Is this the problem with so many former SDA’s?
They are so ashamed (correctly so) of the 7th day schoolmaster Sabbath of their youth that they are forever embarrassed about any reference to the Sabbath. Thus they view NCT as a relief and an antidote for their past bondage, even as they switch their weekly church attendance to Sunday.
This makes some sense. But not very much. Truth is not discovered by embracing more error. It is dangerous, for any reason, to treat the teachings of Christ with disdain, thinking our views are better. There will be no excuse in the Judgment day for any that have followed a false Christ. None.
So beware…
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
This means that those today that follow the genuine Christ, must also embrace his view and teaching about the REFORMED, 7th day Sabbath.
At this point, no denomination understands the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath correctly.
All are following a false and worthless Christ. This must change. There must be a Gospel Reformation in the church. This is what the SDA’s were supposed to be doing, but they have failed. Pity.
Bob2 said: 69.New Covenant Theology affirms that every Christian is a Sabbath-keeper because every Christian has entered in a rest from works in Christ the Sabbath Rest (Hebrews 4).
Sabbath Rest for the New Covenant believer consists of resting or ceasing from works of the law or works of sin and resting by faith in Christ. Christ is our Sabbath Rest because having finished his work on our behalf he now sits at the right hand of the Father. Because Jesus Christ has become Sabbath Rest for his people, every moment of every day is Sabbath for the New Covenant believer.
http://breusswane.blogspot.com/
Tom said: While this kind of talk sounds spiritual, it is nonsense. NCT only “affirms” their confusion about the Gospel every time they try to explain their anti-Sabbatarian doctrine.
First off this idea of rest, is all wrong. Anyone who embraces this OC idea that the Sabbath means rest and no work has the wrong view of the Gospel Sabbath. So the very definition of the NCT is wrong. The REFORMED Sabbath does NOT “consist of resting or ceasing from works…”
Rather, it is all about doing good works on the Sabbath, and understanding that the Law of Christ is greater than the Law of Moses. Thus Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, gives a new doctrine of the Sabbath to the church.
Unlike the OC, the NC Sabbath allows for all manner of work on the Sabbath, without guilt. Such a concept was in direct conflict with Jewish law and tradition, even as Jesus also made the Friday “Preparation Day” moot.
OC Sabbath keeping was a very fearful rest, one that did not give spiritual rest. Those of us that grew up SDA understand how this worked. By Saturday evening, most everyone was relieved that the Sabbath was over so we could live again.
But Jesus upends this idea about Sabbath rest and inactivity. He promotes all manner of activity and work on the Sabbath, even in the name of God. Which is why he was killed.
Let all SDA’s understand: The OC “resting” Sabbath is gone. It has been REPLACED with the REFORMED, 7th day, active SABBATH of Christ.
Thus NCT is dealing with the wrong Sabbath. They don’t even understand that there IS a NC Sabbath in the Gospels to study and learn. A point that the early church Father correctly understood, even if they did not get it fully correct.
The leaders of NCT are blind men, pretending to see the Word, when it is obvious they are holding the Bible upside down, and just pretending to understand it.
Show me one place where Jesus teaches that the Sabbath is all about resting? He never says any such thing, at any time.
By contrast, there are many passages where he is breaking the OC rules by working on the Sabbath, and defending his actions as approved by God. Not resting, but working.
So all this blather to defend NCT only works to further prove that they don’t know what they are saying. Christ did not promote a “resting” Sabbath, so all this talk about Christ being our Sabbath rest is useless drivel.
It would make more sense to say that Christ is our Sabbath ACTIVITY, our example of good works and righteousness on the Sabbath Day.
Not only does Christ not teach that he is our Sabbath rest, he teaches that we are to be very active and full of good works on the 7th day Sabbath. Which means that all this fancy sounding double-talk about “rest” from the NCT crowd is just that, double-talk and error, plain and simple.
The NC Sabbath is all about good works, not resting from work. This is a hard concept for many to grasp, especially for the legalistic SDA’s. But it is a Gospel FACT!
Bob2 said: I know you will joke about us resting in Jesus everyday, but this is a beautiful description of the Christian New Covenant life. You don't have to wait 7 days or 3 days, it is the day set by God, Today. Heb 4:7
Tom said: Again, this point about “resting” in Jesus, as if he were our Sabbath rest, makes no sense. Why? Because the NC Sabbath is NOT about rest, but the opposite; activity and good works.
So Jesus can’t be our Sabbath rest, because there is no such doctrine in the NC. The Gospel Sabbath is about “Good Works,” not Good Resting.
Do not continue until you can understand this point.
As for comedy. NCT is the Joke. It is as absurd as anything thought up by the Mormons, Scientologists, or TSDA’s.
While Jesus gives us the hope and assurance of Eternal Rest, 24/7, as well as the “peace that passes understanding,” that does not negate his Reformed Sabbath teaching as you claim.
Matt. 11:29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
This passage is not a parable for this wacky idea that the Sabbath is now fulfilled in Christ and therefore removed. This is not what this text says, nor does it in any way negate the active NC Sabbath as taught by Christ.
Phil. 4:7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Jesus can give us spiritual rest 7 days a week, as well as personal peace and assurance, and still teach a reformed, weekly Sabbath for the church. They are not exclusive concepts as you pretend. And this is exactly what he has done. This is the basis for the NC Sabbath in the church. The teaching of Jesus, written in the Gospels for all to see.
Jesus active, 7th day, Sabbath teaching, which, is against the OC schoolmaster Sabbath, is the correct Sabbath for the church. It is self-evident from the Gospels.
No amount of double talk can change the fact that the “Law of Christ” deals with all the 10 Commandments, including the doctrine of the Sabbath. The very doctrine that sent the Messiah to the cross.
Those that seriously follow Jesus today, will repent of their false Sabbath views. Period. Those that that don’t, will continue to rationalize and pretend to their own damnation.
Bob2 said: Christ fulfilled the whole Law, including the fourth commandment.
Tom said: Not only did he fulfill the OC law; he also invented a new Sabbath doctrine for the church. This cannot be refuted. This is what the Gospels show.
Bob2 said: You have somehow seen a way to retain the Sabbath through a Covenant change.
Tom said: Christ, the author of the Gospel Sabbath, is the one who found a way to “retain” the Sabbath. But he did it in a manner that overturned the OC and re-enforced the Priesthood of all Believers, which is NC doctrine.
Because the NC is just as much Jewish as the OC, it makes sense that the Sabbath, as a memorial to creation, would also find its way into the church. After all, the NT teaches that Jesus was part of the creation process, even the Lord over the Sabbath as well as all else on earth. So how could the Sabbath ever be removed?
While it can’t be removed from the Gospel Story, it can be reformed and updated, and this is what Jesus is doing in the Gospels. Those that follow him, will understand his Sabbath teaching.
Bob2 said: The Law of Moses is not Transcovenantal.
Tom said: The OC is the background and context for the NC. Many things remain forever within both Covenants, including the Creation Story, the Story of Abraham and the Jews, and the Gospel Story, and even God. He is the same God in both Covenants.
The NC does not stand-alone. So it is not correct to pretend that nothing from the OC has survived in the NC. This is very wrong. The Gospel Story starts in the OC and ends up in the NC. Without the former, there would be no Gospel.
Furthermore, you misunderstand the Gospel Sabbath.
Those that follow Jesus as the Lamb of God, are given an EXEMPTION from the rules against not working on the Sabbath. They can work on the Sabbath and not be guilty of sin, (which is law breaking).
The SDA’s do not understand this point. They are stuck on the OC Sabbath, which is why you seen them paying tithe and embracing all manner of OC rules, like food laws. They have the wrong Gospel and the wrong Sabbath. Which is why they must repent.
Bob2 said: One must look for the tenets of the New Covenant in the preaching of Jesus of His kingdom to come, the New Covenant, and in directives from the Apostles of Jesus.
Tom said: Ha! The NCT crowd must not have looked very hard at the “tenets” of Jesus Sabbath teaching in the Gospels. They claim it is not there.
While they admit his NC teaching covers 9 of the 10 commandments, their claim that he omitted the Sabbath is ludicrous and absurd.
This is the great delusion of NCT. They deny the plain, NC Sabbath teachings of Christ.
All that seriously choose to follow Christ, must embrace his “directives” and teachings. Including those about the Reformed Sabbath, which came from God.
Bob2 said: In Paul's case he was shown by vision what the New Covenant was, and if the Sabbath was as important and salvific an issue, the tenet would be obviously spoken of where it is only spoken of as fulfilled. Col 2:16,17.
Tom said: The author of the Gospel Sabbath is Jesus, not Paul. Furthermore, it was Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, who claimed he was “shown” this new active Sabbath by God the Father. This is what made the Jews so angry. Because he claimed that God showed him this reformed, NC Sabbath.
They would not believe such a point and concluded that he was a great Sabbath breaker and blasphemer, sending him to the cross.
Bob2 said: Your argument has been all along that Col 2:16, 17 were only speaking of the ceremonial part of the Old Covenant. Heb 8:13 says different.
Tom said: Bob, Bob, Bob, where have you been? I have never made such an argument as you claim. In fact, there is an entire thread devoted to this point. You are a very poor researcher. You seem to have a big problem getting the facts straight. Please stop ignoring the facts.
See: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews, by Tom Norris
“The SDA claim that the plural Greek for Sabbath means “ceremonial” Sabbath is wrong. The Bible does not support this false interpretation. There are numerous passages that show Sabbaton to mean the weekly, 7th day Sabbath of the Jews.”
“Let all SDA’s understand that Paul is making a reference to the weekly Sabbath of the Moral Law. Not to the more obscure ‘ceremonial’ Sabbaths, which are themselves directly related to the Sabbath of the Moral Law.”
The Sabbath in Colossians and Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242
Bob2 said: The total covenant, not just 9 out of 10 of the Decalogue but all the Law of Moses, including what was in the 10 Commandments and without the 10 Commandments was fulfilled in Christ.
Tom said: You don’t know what you are talking about. The Sabbath is not the kind of doctrine that can be “fulfilled” by a person. It is a memorial to Creation. So Jesus never meant to fulfill the Sabbath, which is why he never taught such a delusion.
The Sabbath existed before Mt Sinai, as did the Creation Story upon which it is based. Thus the 7th day, as a memorial of Creation, enters the picture before there were any Jews, and it will never be removed for all eternity from the J/C paradigm.
Bob2 said: The OC includes the Decalogue, the NC contains what was commanded by Jesus and His Apostles.
Tom said: Agreed. However, Jesus commands all to follow his Gospel and his reformed, active Sabbath. This too is part of his Gospel instruction. Why do you want to ignore this fact?
Answer: Because it condemns NCT and proves it worthless. So you make up your version of the Gospels in order to protect your false views. Shameful behavior.
Bob2 said: No command for a weekly rest is given in the New Covenant.
Tom said: I see you are having a hard time comprehending the Gospel Sabbath.
First off, you are correct to observe that there is no command for any Christian to follow the OC, “resting” Sabbath of the Jews. Good for you!
But you are incorrect to look for something that is not there.
You are looking for the wrong Sabbath.
However, if you look for the reformed, active, 7th day Sabbath, where work is not a sin, (and there is no Preparation Day on Friday), you will find in all through the Gospels, even as it is reinforced by the rest of the NT.
Over and over Jesus teaches his active and amazing Gospel Sabbath, as part of his Gospel teaching. But because it is not like the OC Sabbath where one can easily become a Sabbath Breaker, few recognize this remarkable and stunning Sabbath doctrine. Few today understand Jesus, as they should.
Bob2 said: I am prepared to be wrong, but it appears there is no command for a Reformed Sabbath in the New Testament.
Tom said: You are wrong. I hope you are ready to repent.
One must first understand Jesus Gospel Sabbath before they can follow it. At this point, all you know is the OC Sabbath of Moses and the SDA’s, or the No Sabbath of NCT crowd. As soon as you comprehend the reformed Sabbath teaching of Jesus, you will see a better Way.
Bob2 said; Christ makes clear He is more important than the Sanctuary.
Tom said: Agreed. Christ also makes clear that he is Lord of the Sabbath, and that God the Father told him to reform the Sabbath into a different NC doctrine.
Bob2 said: In Heb 4 it talks of a Sabbath Rest some have not attained but instructs all to strive for the Sabbath Rest like God experienced at Creation, rest from your work, or attempt to save one self which Jesus does in the New Covenant, erasing the shadow Sabbath as a salvific need, when Christ is now our Sabbath Rest.
Tom said: While the Jewish author of Hebrews makes many references to creation and the Sabbath rest associated with it, he also makes clear that there is a doctrine of the Sabbath for the church.
See:
Sirje said: Tom, My Bible, The Updated New American Standard version, says for Heb.4:9 "So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God".
Tom said: You need to understand that the Greek word here means “a Sabbath keeping.” As in the 7th day. It is not saying that the weekly Sabbath is gone and now the believers rest is in Jesus.
Here is the most literal translation, which is an exclusive reference to Sabbath keeping, as in the Day and Doctrine. The word “rest” is not even there! It is being supplied by the translator.
Darby Bible Translation: There remains then a sabbatism to the people of God.
Here are some better translations.
Bible in Basic English: So that there is still a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God.
Douay-Rheims Bible: There remaineth therefore a day of rest for the people of God.
You, and some others are reading into this verse what you want, not what it is really saying. Many are using some poor translations that focus on rest, and that seem to leave the door open for anti-Sabbatism.
But the text is talking about the weekly, 7th day Sabbath. It is saying that there is such a doctrine for the church. Thus the KJV and the AKJV gives a misleading reading by saying:
King James Bible: There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
American King James Version: There remains therefore a rest to the people of God.
Such a reading, if true, can easily be viewed as supporting this idea that Jesus is our rest, and that this passage is not dealing with the weekly Sabbath of the Jews and Christians. But this is not a good translation. It is misleading and wrong. The word “rest” is not even in the text!
The ASV is better, because it uses the term Sabbath and then adds the word rest. So it keeps closer to the original idea, but even then, it misses what the passage is actually saying. The author is declaring that there is a weekly, Gospel Sabbath for the church.
American Standard Version: There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
The DR Bible gives a more accurate translation:
Douay-Rheims Bible: There remaineth therefore a day of rest for the people of God. (Post #20)
The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242
Bob2 said: Don't get me wrong Tom, you can worship on Saturday, but it should be for the correct reason.
Tom said: There is only one day of the week that has been designated for weekly congregational church meeting. It is the 7th day. While one can meet on any day, only the 7th is the official Sabbath for either the OC or NC Sabbaths.
The NC doctrine of the Sabbath is real, and there is no excuse why every denomination has it wrong.
Bob2 said: But to tell individuals that they must leave family, or jobs, or to cease recreation or other activity, is not Biblical.
Tom said: You don’t understand what you are saying.
First, it was “Biblical” for the Jews to “cease” from work and play on the Sabbath. This type of “rest” is the definition of the OC Sabbath of the Jews.
So how can you say that such an OC doctrine is not biblical? Moses would not agree, and neither will anyone else that knows the Bible.
Second, the NC Sabbath is not like the OC Sabbath. It does NOT require anyone to cease from work or play. This is why it seemed so radical and sinful to the Jews.
The SDA’s have embraced the OC Sabbath and thus they are the ones that say: no work, no play, no way. But this is all wrong. This is not what Adventist Reform is promoting.
Bob2 said: There is no command about the Sabbath Rest accept as Heb 4 explains what God/Jesus meant by the shadow to a specific people and the Heb 4 discussion of the Rest that will only be found in heaven when translated. We are to "make every effort to enter that rest" as in Heb 4:11.
Tom said: There are many commands and invitations in the NT to follow Christ and embrace his Words, teaching, and example.
Jesus doctrine of the Sabbath, which is repeated in all four Gospels many times, cannot be excluded from his holy instruction to the church.
Why the NCT crowd thinks otherwise is anyone’s guess. Maybe they want to be novel? Or better yet, maybe they hate the Sabbath, for the way they think it harmed their lives?
Regardless, Jesus never taught sinners to “rest” on the Sabbath. He was always very active on the Sabbath, never resting. He teaches an active Sabbath, where good works, not good rest, abound.
The NC Sabbath is not about “rest” but about “Good Works.”
So there will never be a command from Jesus for anyone to cease from working on the Sabbath. There is no such restful Sabbath doctrine in the NC.
Let all understand that the SDA’s have been promoting the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath. They did get the correct day, but so too did the Jews, and look what happened to them. So getting the Day correct in not enough.
All that understand the Gospel, must also understand the Gospel Sabbath. To misunderstand the Sabbath, is to misunderstand the Gospel. This is why it is important to make sure that our doctrine of the Sabbath is correct.
The fact of the matter is that we have all had the wrong Gospel and the wrong Sabbath all these years, both the Sunday and 7th day camps. This is why the church, meaning every denomination, must repent. This is why there must be Gospel Reform in the church, starting with the SDA’s, the Sabbath experts.
Tom Norris, for the active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath
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Tom, I read your response, but I will be shorter than your response. I looked to see if at the time of Christ the Pharisees were keeping the Law as given by God at Sinai or had they corrupted the rules for the Sabbath keeping. Check this article:
http://www.spiritualabuse.org/hair/modernday.html
In this article, it talks about the Oral Law that developed from Sinai to the time of Christ. It was concocted. The Sabbath Law was still there, but the corrupted rules were what Christ was stripping away. There is no Reformed Gospel Sabbath, but when Jesus warned the disciples about the Pharisee teaching, He was not claiming a Sabbath for His Kingdom to come, because He fulfilled the Sabbath shadow. At the time of Christ He was pointing out the Oral Law that the Pharisees created to "help God" give manmade rules that are not the spirit of the Law.
In one place in the article, the author says, the Pharisees made laws that God never created. Their interpretation of Sabbath keeping was corrupted. Jesus was pointing out this error not Reforming the Sabbath. Read the whole article. This is spiritual abuse which I believe you are doing and the tSDA is doing, neither is Biblical.
Tom, you have accepted the Pharisees man made laws by talking of a Reform of a legitmate law, which none of the Pharisees Sabbath Rules were, it was currupt Oral Law. Prove that the rules condemned were original from God. You won't find it. The Pharisees had created the extra rules that Jesus was condemning them for. Because they had loading/burdened the Jews with their own "oral traditions/laws". This is not Reform but pointing out error. Whether the Sabbath is part of the New Covenant, there must be a command by Jesus. Instead he talks of "spiritual rest" which Jesus is introducing a a Gospel concept, which He Himself can give, not abiding by manmade traditions. Show me in the Bible where the original law condemned healing on the Sabbath as work.
Last edited by bob_2 (08-17-11 5:46 pm)
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The One that is Lord of the Sabbath, Jesus, objected to how the Pharisees had created Laws/Rules that they had loaded on to the Jewish people. Instead of being a beautiful gift that my brother Don presents the Sabbath, it had become onerous. By the way, the Jews/Romans did not kill Jesus just because he was trying to clean up these rule, but more importantly, they did not believe His claim of being the Son of God. The majority of the Jewish nation I believe felt that if He could be killed He was not God's Son. This point is way more important than the Sabbath issue.
I increased my vocabulary by reading this article. Have you heard of a phylactery before. It is a leather box the Pharisees filled with scripture text and worn on the left arm or on their head. They were that complusive about their positions and prided them selfs more in maintaining these than keeping the Sabbath in the spirit of the Law. The harsh words that Christ had for the Pharisees was well deserved because of what they had added to the Sabbath.
Last edited by bob_2 (08-18-11 10:20 pm)
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Bob2 said: Tom, I read your response, but I will be shorter than your response.
Tom said: Yes. This is because you will not address the points raised, nor can you refute the facts. The less you say the better, because your position is hopeless heresy.
Bob2 said: I looked to see if at the time of Christ the Pharisees were keeping the Law as given by God at Sinai or had they corrupted the rules for the Sabbath keeping. Check this article:
http://www.spiritualabuse.org/hair/modernday.html
Tom said: Ha! How did you check out this ancient fact of history and theology? By going to an expert on ancient Judaism? Or by looking at the Torah itself to see what it says?
Answer: NO. You went online looking for anything, from anybody, to find something that you wanted to hear. This is not serious Bible study or research. It is foolish desperation to defend false doctrine. Pitiful.
Luke 6:39 “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
There can be no doubt that Moses taught “no work” on the Sabbath. No cooking. No gathering food. No fires, no traveling, etc.
So this attempt to pretend that Jesus was not really teaching a different Sabbath from Moses, is dishonest nonsense. How do you sleep at night?
The OC says no work on the Sabbath, (unless one is a Priest); Jesus says, all are Priests in the NC, and thus not bound by the law of the 4th Commandment against work on the Sabbath.
Here are two very different Sabbaths.
The OC Sabbath is not only a “no work” under the pain of death doctrine, but it also had a separate, "all male" Levitical Priesthood as well as the Friday Preparation Day.
By contrast, the NC Sabbath is a “working,” active Sabbath where all are Priests of God, (men and women), and the Preparation Day is useless and discarded. These are very different 7th day Sabbaths and there is no excuse for the church today being so brain dead and wrong about this doctrine.
Sunday is the wrong day, and so too this idea that there is to be no work on this “holy rest day.” But the NC Sabbath is not a rest day at all. That was the OC Sabbath.
When will the church wake up?
No wonder the present state of the church makes heaven sick. The Gentiles have done no better at representing God than did the Jews.
Bob2 said: In this article, it talks about the Oral Law that developed from Sinai to the time of Christ. It was concocted. The Sabbath Law was still there, but the corrupted rules were what Christ was stripping away.
Tom said: Of course OC Judaism became corrupt. So what? That does not change “no work” into, “it is not a sin to work on the Sabbath.” These are opposing positions. Nor was there any written or oral tradition about everyone becoming a priest, and thus avoiding the Sabbath rules.
Jesus went far beyond tweaking the OC Sabbath. He turned it on its head. Moses said “no work,” except for the Levites, but Jesus said, all that follow me are Priests of God and thus all are free to work on the Sabbath, even as God does the same thing, without sin or guilt.
Bob2 said: There is no Reformed Gospel Sabbath,
Tom said: Ha! Maybe not for the Pharisees or yourself. But for those that seriously choose to follow Christ and his Word, they will understand the Gospel and embrace the NC Sabbath of Christ.
If there is no reformed Sabbath for the church, what kind of Sabbath is there? NCT says there is no Sabbath. But they also say that Jesus only taught 9 of the 10 Commandments, omitting the 4th. This is such an obvious and fatal error, that NCT has been exposed as a cultic joke. Any Pastor that embraces this garbage should be fired.
Bob2 said: but when Jesus warned the disciples about the Pharisee teaching, He was not claiming a Sabbath for His Kingdom to come, because He fulfilled the Sabbath shadow.
Tom said: Jesus teaches a reformed Sabbath in all four Gospels, which the Pharisees hated.
He did not fulfill the Sabbath, nor did he ever teach such a point. Why do you insist to making up your own version of the Gospel Story? This is wrong. We are stuck with the 4 Gospels. They are the primary source for the NC Sabbath. And they do not teach this silly delusion about Jesus fulfilling the Sabbath Shadow.
In fact, there is no such term or phrase as “Sabbath Shadow” in the entire Bible. Nor did Jesus ever teach any such point at any time. So stop making up your version of Christ. It will not get you anywhere but to hell.
Bob2 said: At the time of Christ He was pointing out the Oral Law that the Pharisees created to "help God" give manmade rules that are not the spirit of the Law.
Tom said: It was God that spoke the Sabbath Law. It was God that said “no work” on the Sabbath, (unless one was a Levite). It was God that caused the miracle of the double manna on the “Preparation Day,” and thus, this part of the schoolmaster Sabbath, was not created by man, but by God.
I repeat: the no working Sabbath of the Jews came from God, not the 1st century Pharisees as you claim. Wow! You just can’t be honest with the material can you? You just can’t admit that NCT is wrong. So you try and change the Gospel Story to fit your false views. Pitiful, - and suicidal.
Bob2 said: In one place in the article, the author says, the Pharisees made laws that God never created.
Tom said: Agreed. But so what? This proves nothing.
Jesus went far beyond anything that any Jew had ever taught about the Sabbath. He took a position that amazed and divided the Jews, shocking the religious establishment. And so it will happen again…
Bob2 said: Their interpretation of Sabbath keeping was corrupted.
Tom said: Agreed. But the OC view of the Sabbath was still based on a strict “no work” policy, plus a Friday Preparation Day, and a separate Priesthood.
Jesus challenged this OC view and transformed the Sabbath into a NC doctrine. Those who deny this are not part of the NC. They are not even literate, obviously being unable to read the Gospels.
Bob2 said: Jesus was pointing out this error not Reforming the Sabbath.
Tom said: Wrong. Jesus was teaching a new (covenant) doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath for the church, a doctrine based on the Priesthood of all believers.
A doctrine that gives all NC believers an exemption from the OC Sabbath rules against work. Jesus was not trying to lead the Jews deeper into the OC, not at all. He was ending the OC and starting the New, and the Reformed Sabbath was a living, public doctrine that led the way.
The Sabbath doctrine is paradigm shifting in nature, and that is why it causes so much controversy. Those that understand Jesus, will also understand and embrace his view of the Sabbath. Which in turn stirs up the religious establishment, who fights to defend their false traditions.
All this will be repeated.
Bob2 said: Read the whole article. This is spiritual abuse which I believe you are doing and the tSDA is doing, neither is Biblical.
Tom said: Ha! So Tom Norris is “abusing” people by promoting the NC Sabbath of Christ? And NCT is not abusing anyone by promoting their anti-Sabbatarian, fictional, and heretical view of the Sabbath?
The article made some good points, but not enough to remove the Sabbath, or to pretend that Jesus Sabbath teaching is OC in nature.
However, there is great spiritual abuse taking place by those that refuse to submit to the authority and teaching of Jesus. It is very wrong to surf the Internet looking for answers to use in the defense of false doctrine. Such behavior is the fulfillment of prophecy.
2Tim. 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2Tim. 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
While you imagine that you have found some points that seem to support your false views, it will do you no good, because only the NT has any authority for doctrine. This is the problem for any that try to refute the Reformed Sabbath of Christ. Only the Words and actions of Jesus can establish the correct Sabbath for the church. He is the highest authority for the Church, and its greatest theologian.
Ignore and refute Jesus at your own risk.
Bob2 said: Tom, you have accepted the Pharisees man made laws by talking of a Reform of a legitimate law, which none of the Pharisees Sabbath Rules were, it was corrupt Oral Law.
Tom said: While the Pharisees are the bad guys in the Gospel Story, it is not true that everything they taught was wrong. In fact, Jesus supported much of what they taught because it was based on the written Torah.
Matt. 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples,
Matt. 23:2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;
Matt. 23:3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.
Here Jesus admits to the authority of both the Torah and present Jewish leaders. So he is not saying that the present leaders should not be teaching the Law, rather he is saying that they are hypocrites for not really observing it correctly, from the heart.
Moses did not teach anyone to “tie up heavy spiritual burdens” on people and make life hard for them. This is not the purpose of God’s law.
Moses did not teach anyone to be arrogant and showoff their supposed spiritual accomplishments, being full of ego in the name of God. Many things that the Jews were doing had no approval from Moses, just like many things the SDA’s teach do not have the approve from Ellen White, as they claim. Thus many trust in a delusion.
Matt. 23:4 “They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.
Matt. 23:5 “But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.
Matt. 23:6 “They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Matt. 23:7 and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men.
The Pharisees had the correct law, but an incorrect view of it and of God. They talked a good game in the name of God, but they were just pretending and lying. They were full of evil and false doctrine, which is no fault of the Law or Moses.
John 5:45 “Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
John 5:46 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
John 5:47 “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
Moreover, Jesus understood that the religious leaders would never repent or admit their errors, so he tries to separate the people from their authority and rule because they are unfit to represent God’s law or the Gospel.
This lesson should be clear for us today. We are not to trust those who claim to be spiritual leaders today, like any Pastor or any church leader. We are not to follow this person or that scholar, relying on their interpretations for our Eternal Life. ONLY the teachings of Jesus are salvific. Only the Jewish God is the real God, and only Christ is our leader.
Matt. 23:8 “But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.
Matt. 23:9 “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
Matt. 23:10 “Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
When it comes to any point of church doctrine, only the Words of Christ are primary. Those who embrace a doctrine of the Sabbath that is different from what Jesus teaches, which is every denomination on earth, are not following Christ or his Gospel. They are pretenders and hypocrites, just like the Pharisees.
Today, organized religion is fully corrupt and very wrong. The true PAJ of the church condemns all, and now it is easy to see why. They all have the wrong Gospel, which is evidenced by the wrong Sabbath, (or in the case of NCT, no Sabbath at all).
Bob2 said: Prove that the rules condemned were original from God. You won't find it.
Tom said: Bob, Bob, Bob, this is too funny. Is this NCT defense serious? How can you possibly think you have a chance to make this point stick?
The Pharisees were 100% correct to teach there was “no work” allowed on the 7th day, (except for the Levites). They were also correct to teach a Friday “Preparation Day” in order to facilitate the “no work” rules. Here are these “original rules” that disprove your point.
Ex. 20:8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Ex. 20:9 “Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
Ex. 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
Ex. 20:11 “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
The OC features a non-working, 7th day Sabbath, supported by a Friday “Preparation Day.” Jesus removed the Preparation Day, as well as any guilt associated with not working on the Sabbath. He changed the rules for all to see, but few have eyes to see such spiritual genius at work.
Here is the passage that not only supports the “non working” OC Sabbath, but also the Preparation Day, that precedes it. Note that this took place before Sinai, and that God himself is giving this “no work” Sabbath instruction to Moses.
The OC Sabbath and the Friday Preparation Day.
Ex. 16:15 When the sons of Israel saw it, they said to one another, “What is it?” For they did not know what it was. And Moses said to them, “It is the bread which the LORD has given you to eat.
Ex. 16:16 “This is what the LORD has commanded, ‘Gather of it every man as much as he should eat; you shall take an omer apiece according to the number of persons each of you has in his tent.’”
Ex. 16:17 The sons of Israel did so, and some gathered much and some little.
Ex. 16:18 When they measured it with an omer, he who had gathered much had no excess, and he who had gathered little had no lack; every man gathered as much as he should eat.
Ex. 16:19 Moses said to them, “Let no man leave any of it until morning.”
Ex. 16:20 But they did not listen to Moses, and some left part of it until morning, and it bred worms and became foul; and Moses was angry with them.
Ex. 16:21 They gathered it morning by morning, every man as much as he should eat; but when the sun grew hot, it would melt.
Ex. 16:22 Now on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. When all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses,
Ex. 16:23 then he said to them, “This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is a sabbath observance, a holy sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.”
Ex. 16:24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.
Ex. 16:25 Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is a sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
Ex. 16:26 “Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the sabbath, there will be none.”
Ex. 16:27 It came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none.
Ex. 16:28 Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions?
Ex. 16:29 “See, the LORD has given you the sabbath; therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.”
Ex. 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.
Jesus Reformed Sabbath not only ended the Friday Preparation Day, but he also embraces the Manna Story and declared that it points to him.
John 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
John 6:48 “I am the bread of life.
John 6:49 “Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
John 6:50 “This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
John 6:51 “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
Sinners are sustained 7 days a week by the manna (bread) and wine (real wine) of the Gospel, which are contained in the Words of Christ. The result of this diet is Eternal Life.
John 6:54 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:55 “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
John 6:56 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
John 6:57 “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
John 6:58 “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”
Jesus Reformed Sabbath is part of the Gospel bread that saves our lives. His active, 7th day Sabbath does not require any Friday “Preparation Day,” nor does it forbid work on the Gospel Sabbath.
Of course the Jews looked for reasons to not believe, and they found it in Jesus radical view of the Sabbath.
John 7:23 “If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath?
John 7:24 “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
John 7:25 So some of the people of Jerusalem were saying, “Is this not the man whom they are seeking to kill?
John 7:26 “Look, He is speaking publicly, and they are saying nothing to Him. The rulers do not really know that this is the Christ, do they?
The Jews had no idea that their Messiah was going to greatly Reform their religion, which included the 7th day Sabbath, and they refused to co-operate.
Bob2 said: The Pharisees had created the extra rules that Jesus was condemning them for. Because they had loading/burdened the Jews with their own "oral traditions/laws".
Tom said: While the Pharisees had gone overboard with their legalism, they were still correct to teach a non working Sabbath, complete with a Friday “Preparation Day.” Nothing you can say will change this historic and theological fact.
Therefore, your theory that Jesus was only trying to improve OC theology and make Judaism a better, more honest religion is utter nonsense. Jesus came to establish the NC, not to improve the OC. Jesus came to transition the OC into the NC.
Bob2 said: This is not Reform but pointing out error.
Tom said: Jesus preached NC doctrine. His reformed, active, Sabbath is part of his Gospel instruction to the church. (Such a point disproves NCT, which teaches that Jesus did not teach any NC doctrine about the Sabbath.)
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”
NCT is built on sand. It will not hold up under examination, much less in the Judgment.
Bob2 said: Whether the Sabbath is part of the New Covenant, there must be a command by Jesus.
Tom said: Anyone that claims to follow Christ must do so. Those that misunderstand or ignore his teachings, including his often-repeated doctrine of the Reformed, NC Sabbath, will be locked out of the Kingdom of God.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
In case you don’t know it; you are standing outside of the NC. While you obviously have very little idea of who Jesus is, or what he teaches, you nonetheless refute him at every opportunity. Eternal Life is not granted to anyone under such circumstances.
I suggest that you repent of NCT and try to figure out the genuine Gospel before it s too late. But I fear it may already be for you, and for many others that were raised SDA.
Bob 2 said: Instead he talks of "spiritual rest" which Jesus is introducing as a Gospel concept, which He Himself can give, not abiding by manmade traditions.
Tom said: First off: Not working on the Sabbath is hardly a “man made tradition.” Such written rules on both stone and paper come directly from God to Moses. So you need to stop making such absurd comments.
Second: Jesus NEVER used the phrase “spiritual rest.” He NEVER even said the word “spiritual”! So why do you dare pretend he did? Why did you insist in trying to place false words in Jesus mouth and false doctrines in his head?
Moreover, Jesus only used the word “rest” (in your context) about 3 times. And none of these had anything to do with the Sabbath.
In addition, there is no such phrase in the entire Bible as “Spiritual Rest”! You are just making things up to protect this double-talk called NCT.
So you are a great liar and blasphemer. Jesus DOES NOT “talk” about a “Sabbath rest” or even say the words “Spiritual Rest,” much less that he has fulfilled the Sabbath and abolished it. NCT is a great deception. It is clearly against Christ and the Word. No Christian can repudiate and misunderstand the Gospel teachings of Christ, and still remain a follower of Christ. It is impossible.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Your views show that you do not comprehend the most basic points of the Gospel, and that you have no intention of learning or repenting. Just like the SDA’s who trained you. Pity.
Does the entire NCT crowd also act so incompetent, hypocritical and cultic? I think they may. This is the way of cults. They find some point and then try to get all others to follow, regardless of the facts.
NCT is garbage. It can only be supported by delusions and absurd proof texting, even to the extent of making up phrases and dishonestly twisting the Words of Jesus and the apostles to say the OPPOSITE of what they meant.
Let all run from this worthless double-talk!
Bob2 said: Show me in the Bible where the original law condemned healing on the Sabbath as work.
Tom said: Bob, Bob, Bob, are you for real? Have you never read the OT or the 4th Commandment? Healing is work according to the Jews, regardless how you, a Gentile, feel about it in the 21st century.
In other words, this discussion is not about your opinions, or mine, but only the facts. It is the Jews that determine what is work and who can do it on the Sabbath. Not you or anyone today. So stop trying to make up points and slip it into this discussion. Here are the facts:
Ex. 31:12 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Ex. 31:13 “But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.
Ex. 31:14 ‘Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex. 31:15 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.
Ex. 31:16 ‘So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.’
Ex. 31:17 “It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.”
Ex. 31:18 When He had finished speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, He gave Moses the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of God.
Not only was there to be no healing, there was to be no fires or cooking on the Sabbath. UNDER PAIN OF DEATH!
In the OC, no work, meant no work, (except for the Levites). The healers had no specific exemption. And if you think they did, then the burden of proof is on you to go find the evidence. Go ahead; show us the proof of your theory? You cannot prove these absurd positions because they are not true.
The Sabbath was so strict and limiting, that it required another day to make it tolerable, Friday. This is why there had to be a Preparation Day. Otherwise, there would be no food.
Under such strict rules, why would anyone think the healers were allowed to travel around and treat their patients, while no others were allowed to cook or light fires or travel? This makes no sense.
Only if this class were Levites could your theory make some sense. But the healers were not Levites. Thus those that practiced medicine and healing (such as it was), had to follow the same non working Sabbath law like everyone else –on pain of death!
Ex. 35:1 Then Moses assembled all the congregation of the sons of Israel, and said to them, “These are the things that the LORD has commanded you to do:
Ex. 35:2 “For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.
Ex. 35:3 “You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day.”
Moreover, it was not just healing that is the subject of the Sabbath debates. There was harvesting, preparing food, traveling, moving furniture (a bed), making (mining) medicine, (clay mixture for the blind man).
While the Jews had an exemption for healers to work on the Sabbath if the life of the patient was at risk, Jesus’ healings went far beyond this line. This is why we see Jesus selecting those with long time ailments, which were NOT emergencies. Like the man by the pool, and the man born blind.
These healings were not a matter of life or death, and thus any treatment was forbidden on the Sabbath. But this is the point. Jesus was trying to teach a very different view of the Sabbath. He wanted to make sure that everyone knew he was dramatically reforming the doctrine of the Sabbath as well as the entire Priesthood, even the Temple.
John 5:2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the sheep gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew Bethesda, having five porticoes.
John 5:3 In these lay a multitude of those who were sick, blind, lame, and withered, waiting for the moving of the waters;
John 5:4 for an angel of the Lord went down at certain seasons into the pool and stirred up the water; whoever then first, after the stirring up of the water, stepped in was made well from whatever disease with which he was afflicted.]
John 5:5 A man was there who had been ill for thirty-eight years.
John 5:6 When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he had already been a long time in that condition, He *said to him, “Do you wish to get well?”
John 5:7 The sick man answered Him, “Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, but while I am coming, another steps down before me.”
John 5:8 Jesus *said to him, “Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.”
John 5:9 Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk. Now it was the Sabbath on that day.
John 5:10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
John 5:20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.
Jesus was not operating a 911 service for the Jews. He was not looking to treat emergencies, (which are permitted on the Sabbath). This is why he selects those who are not supposed to be treated or healed on the Sabbath.
John 9:1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
John 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?”
John 9:3 Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
John 9:5 “While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”
John 9:6 When He had said this, He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and applied the clay to his eyes,
John 9:7 and said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which is translated, Sent). So he went away and washed, and came back seeing.
John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.
Again, Jesus selects a disfigured woman to heal on the Sabbath who is not in an emergency situation. She has had this problem for 18 years, but her condition is not bad enough to keep her from attending the synagogue or living her life. This was no emergency.
Luke 13:10 And He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.
Luke 13:11 And there was a woman who for eighteen years had had a sickness caused by a spirit; and she was bent double, and could not straighten up at all.
Luke 13:12 When Jesus saw her, He called her over and said to her, “Woman, you are freed from your sickness.”
Luke 13:13 And He laid His hands on her; and immediately she was made erect again and began glorifying God.
Luke 13:14 But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, “There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day.”
Jesus was purposely breaking the Sabbath rules for all to see, even as he would also explain that he was teaching a new (covenant) Sabbath from God the Father. Those that ignore or repudiate Jesus Gospel, which includes his reformed Sabbath teaching, are doomed.
Here is some info about Ancient Healing in Judaism:
Ancient Jewish Healers:
The Jewish doctor's medical thinking was steeped in moralistic principles. To aid the sick and to preserve life, these constituted the ultimate expression of piety; love for man was complementary to love for G-d. Therefore, to treat a very sick patient (Gentile as well as Jew) on the Sabbath was considered not only no violation of that holy day on which all work was forbidden. Quite the contrary, it was in fact, esteemed as an act of great merit. No law of humanity ever exceeded in simple nobility the formulation of this oral tradition in the Mishnah.
http://www.buddychai.com/Religion/Healers.html
While there was an exemption, which allowed the Levites to work on the Sabbath, Jesus was not a Levite. Thus he could never be allowed to practice medicine, (such as it was) on the Sabbath, regardless. Only in a life and death emergency, would anyone be able to avoid the guilt of the law.
However, Jesus was not treating emergencies on the Sabbath, but long held defects that were not even life threatening. He did this to make sure everyone understood his Reformed Sabbath, which stunned the Jews and took them by complete surprise. And so it will today.
See: THE BIBLIOGRAPHY OF ANCIENT HEBREW MEDICINE
Unlike the Egyptians with their extreme specialization, the Hebrew doctor was a general practitioner, physician and surgeon.
In the Psalms(147:3) God is the Healer who "healeth the broken in heart and bindeth up their wounds". The word for physician was Rophe, which is derived from "to relieve", "to soften", (not as some suggest from "to sew").
The physician is the divine agent. There was a distinction among physicians; some are spoken of as "proved" or "expert", probably signifying "licensed" for it was taught that only one who is competent, should treat the sick, so that "the healer become not the murderer!"
No fatalistic view concerning disease and its cure prevailed; on the contrary, the Biblical statute (Exod. 21:19) of compensation for in- jury, that he whose fault it is "shall cause him (the injured) to be thoroughly healed," made medical care a duty! The Talmudic teachers looked upon the care of health and the cure of disease as paramount duties and permitted violations of religious ordinances for the sake of the sick. (Hullin10a)
Beside physicians, there were blood-leters, mid-wives, and circumcisers among the ancient Hebrews. Priests were not physicians; in their relation to leprosy, priests acted like the Health Officers of England. A few of the prophets appear to have had some medical knowledge (Elisha, Isaiah) but none is called physician.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article … 7-0003.pdf
See also:
Ancient Hebrew Medicine
Hebrew reliance on strict codes, which controlled virtually all behavior was another Mesopotamian characteristic. Furthermore, the assignment of the Sabbath as a day of rest, observed by orthodox Jews even today, matches the severe Assyrian restriction of activities on the seventh day of the week, when the king engaged in no official business and physicians were not even permitted to treat the sick.
http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/630 … icine.html
Ancient Medicine: In Case of Emergency, Contact Your Local Prophet
http://www.bib-arch.org/e-features/ancient-medicine.asp
The physician in ancient Israel: his status and function.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article … 89/?page=1
NC Sabbath
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm
In conclusion, let all understand the genuine Gospel Sabbath of the NC.
Let all repent and embrace the genuine teachings of Christ.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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