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Bob2 said: Tom, there are some texts after Christ's death I present for you to tell me what you think they mean:
Tom said: They do not mean the Gospels are to be ignored or the written teachings of Jesus marginalized, subordinated to unwritten myths and speculation. Sorry.
If one does not understand the Gospels, (which were written after Christ’s death, but features his earthly ministry before the cross), there is little chance they will comprehend the rest of the NT correctly.
Anyone trying to be a Christian must FIRST understand Christ and his teachings. THIS is the basis, the foundation, for the Christian Faith.
The facts are clear, Jesus taught the Gospel to his disciples. They had a hard time understanding it, as did all the Jews. Only after the cross did they better understand the points he was trying to make. The apostles, after the cross, wrote this down for our edification, which is called the NT.
When the Gospel Story is read honestly, without the many Gentile manipulations and false traditions, it will become apparent that there are no passages that would allow anyone to think that Christ is NOT the head theologian of the Church, having all authority for Gospel doctrine.
No one, whether Peter or Paul has any right or authority to defy Christ and change HIS Gospel or his view of the Sabbath. This is why Peter and Paul had their Galatian meltdown. Peter was making some unauthorized changes to Gospel doctrine, and Paul would not allow it.
The Church is to follow Christ, not invent reasons why they don’t have to. Many today run to Paul because they don’t understand Christ. But Paul is not the head of the church, nor is their any salvation from Paul.
1Cor. 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
This idea that Paul, who was an enemy of the Gospel for many years, became smarter than Christ, or that he somehow has earned more doctrinal authority, or has more information, - is absurd.
1Cor. 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
1Cor. 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Cor. 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
1Cor. 15:5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
Note that Paul “received” his Gospel from others. Thus he is under Christ, in all respects, at all time, in every way.
If you want Eternal Life, you must first understand and embrace Jesus, as well as Paul, who does the same thing. If you think they are opposed to one another, then you have understood neither. So it is with NCT.
Jesus is the savior of the Church. Not Paul. Jesus represents the NC, and he is the one that invented, promoted, and defended to the death, the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath for the church. Those who deny this Gospel fact are denying Christ and the Gospel Story.
Are you sure this is what you want to do? Are you certain that NCT is worth defending, even if you lose your soul?
Wake up Bob, and hear the Gospel…Paul does not support your NCT heresy.
Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Bob2 said: If Christ was reforming the Sabbath as you say, why weren't the disciples pleased at what He said or understand the Gospel? Because they were expecting a different Kingdom of what Jesus spoke of.
Tom said: There is no “if” about it. Jesus clearly and repeatedly promoted a “reformed” and very “active” doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, - in all four Gospels. This obvious, self-evident fact cannot be refuted.
Jesus apostles in training witnessed these dramatic Sabbath debates and healings that took place every 7th day of Christ’s Gospel ministry. They were caught in the middle of them, being called Sabbath breakers.
Matt. 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.
Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
The apostles understood that the NC Sabbath was important to Christ, even critical to understanding the Gospel, and that is why they wrote it down in all four the Gospels for us to read and obtain Eternal Life.
If there were more Gospels, like 5, 6, 7, or 8, they too would all contain the NC Sabbath teachings of Christ that caused so much debate between Jesus the leaders. Why? Because these Gospel debates are very important. If you don’t understand what is taking place between Jesus and the Jews over the Sabbath, you will not be able to fully understand the Gospel.
Furthermore, John was an eyewitness to these Sabbath debates, even as he too was called a Sabbath Breaker. He was there when Christ declared himself to be the Lord of the active, Gospel Sabbath, and this is why John refers to the NC Sabbath as the “Lord’s Day.”
Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day…
No one was correctly expecting the NC Lord or a reformed Lord’s day in the 1st century. They were all surprised and amazed at Jesus many strange and new teachings, including and especially his new view about a working Sabbath that was subordinated to the Law by the Gospel, even as all were made Priests of God.
Jesus taught a very different NC Sabbath doctrine because the (NC) Gospel is very different from the OC. Thus the battle between the OC and the NC is reflected in the Sabbath debates. Misunderstand these historic discussions that led to the cross, and you will misunderstand the Gospel as well as the NC Sabbath and the Two Covenants.
The correct doctrine of the Sabbath can only emerge when the Gospel is correctly taught. The two go hand in glove. This is why in the last days, (in Rev 18), when the genuine Gospel is promoted with power and precision, the Reformed Sabbath will also be featured. Thus condemning all, and forcing all to either defend their false traditions or repent and believe the genuine Gospel.
Those that follow NCT are condemned. So too the SDA’s. They should be the first ones repenting for their false Gospel and OC Sabbath, which are supported by the doctrine of Levitical tithing. Shame on the SDA’s…
Bob, listen to me. Run from NCT. Repent of this double-talk and resolve to find the true Gospel and the one and only NC Sabbath that is part of the “law of Christ.”
Don’t let any cult, large or small, steal Eternal Life from you.
Bob2 said: Three years before Paul went to Jerusalem, and was taught by God about the Gospel and the Kingdom of God.
Tom said: Before Paul ever heard the Gospel, Jesus had already taught a number of people about the Gospel. He entrusted them to write out the important facts about Jesus Gospel ministry, including the Passion Week and the resurrection. Paul had zero to do with this.
The apostles lived with Jesus for three years, watching and learning from the Master. They wrote down the teachings of Jesus, as the Word of God in the Gospels. These books contain Jesus authentic Words. Those that refuse to admit this fact, ignoring the teachings of Christ for any reason, will be lost. And Paul will not be able to save anyone that is so foolish.
Christians must follow Christ, and so too must Peter and Paul.
Bob2 said: Man had no time to pollute what he saw from God.
Tom said: Man is so “polluted” that he can ruin anything easily and quickly. So you are talking nonsense.
Bob2 said: If the Sabbath was important to the Gospel, don't you think he would have said that he was shown the Sabbath was still to be kept???
Tom said: Pay attention: Jesus never taught that the OC Sabbath was to be “kept” in the NC! But he did defend the reformed, active Sabbath over and over. This is a fact of the Gospels. It is not up for debate.
This is why the Jewish leaders became so angry with Christ. He promoted a version of the Sabbath that they repudiated, and then he said God told him to do it.
So you need to stop changing the Gospel Story and pretending that there is no Gospel Sabbath and that it is not important.
While the Sabbath as a doctrine may not be important to you, or any that adopt the false and rabid anti-Sabbatarian views of NCT, it was very important to God, Jesus and the Jews, as well as the Gospel writers, because they all have plenty to say about how Jesus dealt with the Sabbath.
In fact, Jesus’ “reformed” view of the Sabbath was so important, that he died to defend this Gospel doctrine, even as this was the primary reason why the Jews sent him to the cross.
Jesus testifies that God the Father showed him this new Sabbath. The Jews became outraged at such a claim. Any that follow Jesus, in the hope of Eternal Life, have no choice but to believe the Words of Christ and follow his Gospel view of the Sabbath.
Bob2 said: Shouldn't our era of the Church be studying more about what Christ told/shown Paul.
Tom said: The church, at all times, in every era, must listen to Christ, its head and savior.
I repeat: The first priority of the church is to carefully listen to Christ and follow his teaching. He is the head theologian and grand interpreter of the church. This is why the Gospels are in the front of the NT, before the writings of Peter, Paul and all others. They contain the Words of Eternal Life from the Son of God.
John 6:66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
John 6:67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?”
John 6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
John 6:69 “We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”
Jesus is the author of the Gospel. His words, recorded in the Gospels are THE source of Eternal Life for everyone that believes. No one, either in the church or outside, has any authority to change, challenge, or refute anything that Christ says, much less to ignore or refute his Gospel teaching. This goes for Peter and Paul, and for you and me.
Jesus primarily speaks to the Church through the Gospels, and through his apostles in the NT, and again through the PAJ in Revelation where he condemns every denomination for their false Gospel, wrong Sabbath, and useless works.
Ignore the genuine Christ a your own risk.
Bob2 said: It sounds like Christ showed Paul more than what is in the Gospels (the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John)
Tom said: Ha! It sounds like you want to change the Gospel Story and speculate about myths, ignoring what is plainly written.
It appears like you are trying to marginalize and avoid the teaching of Jesus at all costs, even to the point of pretending that Paul knows more about the Gospel than Jesus. The word for this type of behavior is “blasphemy.” Are you sure that NCT is worth such a reckless and suicidal defense?
Wow! It sounds like you need to repent, because you are heading away from Christ, and away from the Gospel with every post. You must repent of NCT and change direction before it is too late.
Bob2 said: Sounds like Christ was one on one with Paul for three years getting his MESSAGE, the GOSPEL.
Tom said: The Gospel was preached before Paul knew anything about. He was not around during the ministry of Christ, and he enters the story as one who worked with the Jewish leaders to destroy the Gospel. Such evil actions, and the repentance that followed, will never qualify anyone to understand the Gospel better than Jesus or better than those who wrote down the Gospel Record.
Jesus spent far more “one on one” time with Peter, James, and John, as well as some others. Paul missed out on the entire ministry of Christ, not even being around at the cross.
This is why Paul could never have written the Gospels and why he gives no eyewitness accounts of the Passion. Those closest to Christ wrote the Gospels, which features the Words and acts of Christ, the Son of God.
Paul was fortunate to be selected as an apostle, and he admits this fact.
1Cor. 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
Paul’s letters to the various churches are full of Gospel truth and instruction, but they are not to be compared with the Gospels. The life and teaching of Jesus is superior to anything and everything that has ever been published in the entire world.
Those that seek Eternal Life must go directly to Christ, IN THE GOSPELS, not to Paul, to learn the Gospel. (Just like he did.)
No one can learn the Gospel unless and until they understand and embrace the teachings of Christ. THIS is the source of the Gospel, including anything that Peter or Paul ever wrote or said. Reject this fact at your own risk.
Bob2 said: Paul knew Judaism, and was a persecutor of Christians until Jesus appeared to him.
Tom said: Jesus knew Judaism much better than Paul, even though Paul was the most educated, cultured, and polished of all the apostles.
It is hard to think of the NT without him because he wrote so much of it and built up the Gentile church. But he was not around during the ministry of Christ, and thus we must first embrace the Gospel Record, including the teachings of Christ, which are featured in this section of the NT. The Gospel Story does not start or end with Paul. Sorry.
In other words, no one can do an end run around the Gospels and go to Paul, or James or Peter to refute the teachings of Christ. If you think Paul is more correct about the Sabbath than Jesus, then you misunderstand both Paul and Jesus.
Do you understand this point?
Bob2 said: You rely on the Gospels, almost solely when here it says Jesus would show him what he was to teach.
Tom said: Ha! Since when it is wrong to pay attention to Christ? Since when is it a bad thing for a Christian to “rely” on the Gospels for doctrine?
Your own words condemn you, proving that you do not understand proper hermeneutics, nor follow the Son of God.
NCT is against Christ. Keep defending this garbage, and you are a dead man walking. No Eternal Life for those so foolish as to reject the Gospel of God.
Furthermore, the rest of the NT supports Jesus NC Sabbath, aka, the Lord’s Day. Even Paul. Once you understand the NC Sabbath of the Gospels, you will find it in the rest of the NT. But few know what to look for, especially the NCT crowd, which declares there is no Sabbath in the NC.
Bob2 said: SDAs stay in the OT when here is where their study should be, not just the Gospel, but Paul's God given message which is the Gospel.
Tom said: While it is true that the SDA’s are OC minded, not understanding Jesus or Paul, they do understand that there is a 7th day Sabbath for the church. This is a correct point.
NCT is not even that correct. They think there is no Sabbath for the church, either Sunday or the 7th day. This is very wrong. There is, but it is the reformed version that Jesus teaches in the Gospels.
So when you condemn the SDA’s, you condemn yourself because you also embrace Gospel error and a false view of the Sabbath. At least the SDA’s have the right day!
It is time for the Adventist Community to wise up and shift their apocalyptic paradigm forward-- to the 4th Angels Message, which features the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. The real Lord’s Day.
Come on SDA’s! You can do it! The Advent Movement is about to receive new life and energy, if they will only repent and return to the Gospel.
The Adventists must push the Three Angels Messages forward by first repenting of the “schoolmaster Sabbath,” and many other errors, and then embrace the reformed Gospel Sabbath of Christ. Then they can update their outdated eschatology and get about their mission to prepare the church for the end of the world. Who else even has such a timely mission?
This is a time of great opportunity for the Advent Movement.
Rather than waste your time defending the delusion of NCT, which has no eschatology, Sabbath, or theological pedigree, why not promote cutting edge Gospel theology and prophecy?
Why not listen to the risen Christ and embrace “Present Truth” for the 21st century?
The Reformed Sabbath as promoted by Adventist Reform, (meaning Dr. Ford and Tom Norris), is “Present Truth” for the church today. This is why you are having such a hard time trying to dismiss and repudiate it.
But you have clearly failed for all to see. Truth is truth for a reason. Neither you, nor Goldstein, nor anyone, can refute Adventist Reform, which features the 7th day, active Sabbath of Christ.
So Bob, give up NCT, and promote the Reformed Sabbath of Christ, the genuine Sabbath of the NC. Do something worthwhile for the Kingdom of God instead of trying to fight the clear words of Christ.
Use your talents for the genuine Gospel, and continue to promote the Advent legacy of following truth. This is a wonderful characteristic of the Adventist Pioneers, which would make your mother proud.
Follow truth; which is not NCT.
Bob2 said: Since Tom has been known to delete posts of mine, I will respond from this thread, anything to do with his reformed Sabbath.
Tom said: I have taken down a few of your posts because they were just too rude and did not add anything to the discussion. However, rest assured that there is no intention to censor any theological points or criticism from anyone.
Bob2 said; Tom you have not shown that the rules of the Sabbath Jesus points out to the Pharisees that Jesus meant them as a Reformed Sabbath, but only showing how He and His Father wanted the Sabbath kept under the OC.
Tom replied: Jesus teachings are NC in nature. He was not trying to teach or improve the OC Sabbath of Moses. In fact, he was giving an exemption to the 4th Commandment and teaching that all were free to work on the 7th day. Thus he taught a very different version of the Sabbath for all to see.
Bob2 said: Notice these texts that speak for themselves if you will let them Tom:
Tom said: The Reformed Sabbath is found in the Gospels. Why are you avoiding the Gospel Sabbath of Christ? Why do you run away from the Words of Jesus? Christians cannot act this way.
Bob2 cites: 1. Galatians 3:19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.
Tom said: While Galatians condemns the OC Schoolmaster Sabbath of the Jews and SDA’s, it hardly outlaws the Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
Galatians says nothing to indicate that there is no Gospel Sabbath for the church. Moreover, the church has never take such a view from the remarkable Pauline letter.
Bob2 cited: 2. Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Tom said: This passage does not say there is no Sabbath for the church. On the contrary, it admits there is one, even as Paul goes on to teach that no one is to “judge” what the believer does on the 7th day.
If there were no Sabbath in the NC, than Paul would have said that. But he did not. He taught that we are not to let anyone, (especially the Judaizers), make us feel guilty because we are not following their many rules and regulations.
So people need to stop misreading Paul and stop twisting his words to say what they want to hear.
While Paul, the Christian is not under the Law; he is not without the law either. He follows the law of Christ, even as he understands that the Law of God is just and good, even eternal. Why do the anti-Sabbatarians fail to quote the passages where Paul upholds the Law to the church? (Which comes from the teachings of Christ.)
1Cor. 7:17 Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk. And so I direct in call the churches.
1Cor. 7:18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.
1Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
Do you like this teaching of Paul? It includes the Sabbath, at least the NC Sabbath, not the OC Sabbath.
1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under 1the Law, as under 1the Law though not being myself under 1the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
Bob2 said: 3. 2 Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! …
Tom said: This passage is saying that Jesus is much greater than the Law. Which means that Jesus Reformed Sabbath is superior to the schoolmaster Sabbath of the 4th Commandment. And that he has the authority to make such a change not only to the Sabbath, but also to the Priesthood.
Jesus first taught a changed Priesthood, and then he based his reformed Sabbath on this proposed change.
The Jews did not like this proposed elimination of the Levites, or this new Sabbath that removed the Preparation Day, upended the teaching of Moses.
This passage is also saying that people must turn away from the law to the teaching of Jesus. Why? Because the Gospel is greater than the law, and this is exactly what the Reformed Sabbath teaches every week. It is a Sabbath of freedom and innocence from law, thanks to the Word of Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath.
Thus there are no rules against work or play, even as this day is still the weekly congregational day for the new Israel, the Church, to meet and praise God for his Gospel. Nor is anyone set up to “judge” our Sabbath behavior.
Bob2 cited: 4. Heb 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.
Tom said: Jesus Reformed Sabbath is based on the abolishment of the Leviticial Priesthood and the establishment of the Priesthood of all Believers. This proposed change in the Priesthood, allowed him, the High Priest, to give Sabbath exemptions to all. THIS was the theological basis for the active, Gospel Sabbath.
Just as the Priests in the OC were allowed to work on the Sabbath without guilt or sin, so too in the NC. Who knew? This doctrine has been in the Gospels from the beginning of the church. The reason no one understands it correctly is because they don’t know the Gospel, or the teachings of Jesus as they claim. This is why Christ calls all in Laodicea to repent, because they are all wrong.
Bob2 cited: 5. Hebrews 10:9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.
Tom replied: Jesus claimed that it was God’s will that he, and everyone, work on the NC Sabbath. The Jews would not believe him. They did not want to “set aside” their Priesthood, Temple, or Law, of which the OC Sabbath and the Friday Preparation day were such a large part. They hated his NC Sabbath, which was symbolic of his Gospel teaching, and thus they tried to stamp it out.
Bob2 cited: 6. Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Tom replied: Christ made the OC Sabbath obsolete. Which is why he teaches a NC Sabbath.
Bob cited: 7. Heb 4:7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.”
Tom said: Hebrews will not help any anti-Sabbatarian. In fact, this book, written by a Jewish Christian for Jewish believers, establishes Christ as Creator, defends the 7th day Sabbath as an ongoing doctrine in the NC, and urges the believers to keep meeting on this special Gospel day.
Bob2 cited: 8. Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[e] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
Tom said: This passage is not anti-Sabbatarian. It is the opposite. Do some study and learn the facts.
The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242
Bob2 cited: 9. John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Tom said: This passage supports the reformed Sabbath of Christ. It does not say that there is no Sabbath, or that Sunday is now the Gospel Sabbath. Why would you even quote such a passage?
Bob2 said: Tom if you don't study the Bible, the whole Bible with regard to the Covenants, and don't realize the OC Law is not transcovanental you will not see the above.
Tom said: I have been studying the Two Covenants for more than 40 years. This is what the hidden 1888 documents were trying to cover up. The SDA leaders did not want anyone to know that this was the topic that destroyed their Battle Creek Empire.
Why? Because they know it will happen again should this debate become public. And it is becoming public for all to see.
Bob2 said: God expanded on the Old Covenant Law and much more.
Tom said: I thought you said he “abolished” the Law? How can something that is gone, become “expanded?”
Your confusion is apparent. It is a great error to think nothing in the OC survived in the NC. This was the position of Marcion, the great heretic who also claimed that the OC was totally abolished. He even went so far as to claim that the God of the OC was a different God than in the NC.
But of course they are the same God, which disproves this myth that nothing in the OC can become part of the NC. This is an absurd position that was correctly rejected by the church Fathers long ago.
Bob2 said: Another question if in item 8 above you are keeping your Reformed Sabbath, what does "make every effort to enter that rest" mean?
Tom said: It means that we are to make every effort to understand the Gospel. This is what Jesus teaches.
Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
John 6:27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
Bob2 said: Is it not talking of the Christian's heavenly rest, their reward? Also, John 5:16 compared to Gen 2:1-3 sheds new light on what God considers work, eh???
Tom said: The passage is trying to encourage the vacillating Jews to embrace the Gospel of Christ, and not give up their hope of Eternal Life.
Bob2 cited: 10. Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,
Tom said: The “new man” is now called a Christian. This is the NC Israel of God; the Church.
Bob2 said: The following 4 articles are written by one of the New Covenant Scholars, John Reisinger.
Tom said: NCT is garbage. I have read their material. There is no hope for this nonsense. It is poison.
NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
Bob 2 said: Notice that NCT is rather new, and Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism have been around longer. You and tSDAs are Covenant Theology in how you approach the Bible and the Gospel. These will give you a better understanding of NCT.
Tom said: New or Old, NCT is garbage. It is based on error and myth, as well as great spiritual blindness.
As for the SDA’s, they too are full of error, myth, and much corruption. But at least they have Protestant Pedigree, as well as some necessary truth for the church.
NCT’s only correct point is that everyone is wrong about the Sabbath. On this point I agree. However, their solution is worthless and wrong. Sorry.
In conclusion, let the Adventist Community rejoice because the Gospel Sabbath of Christ has been found.
Sabbath Reform for SDA’s is now complete.
Here is a new doctrine for the church that reaches back to the 1st century. Back to the original teachings of Jesus in the Gospels.
Here is Gospel doctrine that will condemn every denomination, including the SDA’s. Those that repent and embrace the NC Sabbath, will better understand how the world will end, even as they participate in the final reformation of the church as shown in Rev 18.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for the active, 7th day Gospel Sabbath
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Tom, if you are suggesting that Christ broke any of the Mosaic Law, He could not save us. He kept the OC Law perfectly. I see no where He suggests something that breaks the Sabbath. Had He, the Devil would be all over it. The oral law is what He spoke out about, and the Spirit of Christ Law. There is no one that says that the New Covenant has to have a holy day. Jesus gives to Paul and the apostles what His New Covenant was. What was fulfilled and what that was not.
Why can't you name others that believe the same way as you? Even an article by Des Ford that confirms that you have one who sees it your way. There are not any commands of Jesus in His life that breaks the OC. His kingdom He speaks of is the New Covenant. Comparing Moses and Jesus, Jesus is a superior Lawgiver. Jesus made it clear with His expanded Christ's Law that the Spirit will empower and that rest of the soul is the most important goal for the Christian. Not inactivity, but joy because Christ had the power to forgive and grant eternal life, Moses and the OC , including the Decalogue can not promise that.
I don't refer to your thoughts or writings as garbage, yet you and maybe one other person believes what you say out of all of Christiandom. Enough said, unless you want to answer the above. Had Christ altered the OC Law to be able to meet it's tenets, the Devil would have claimed victory. But the Lord of the Sabbath has the right to use it as a shadow of the reality He represents in the New Covenant. To call that garbage is an attack on Christ and the Word of God.
Last edited by bob_2 (08-27-11 5:02 pm)
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Bob2 said: Tom, if you are suggesting that Christ broke any of the Mosaic Law, He could not save us.
Tom said: Christ, the Son of God is above the Mosaic Law. So he could break it all day long and not be guilty. And he did so with his teachings and actions about the Sabbath as well as many other things.
Matt. 15:2 “Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
There are many other examples of Jesus not only breaking, but also abolishing, the OC Law. In fact, Jesus taught that he would do away with all the Levites, as well as with the Temple itself! Such anti-OC teachings prove that Jesus was out to change the status quo of Judaism.
Jesus was out to destroy and dramatically change the OC. He was not trying to obey it for our salvation as some teach. Jesus came to destroy the OC and set up the NC.
His Sabbath doctrine plays a pivotal role in this transition, and thus the SDB’s and then the SDA’s have been on the right trail. The Gospel Sabbath is going to play a major role in the final reformation of the Church. Just as it shook up organized religion in the 1st century, so it will again in the 21st.
Too bad the Adventists have the wrong Sabbath. Too bad the entire Laodicean Church has the wrong Gospel and a false Sabbath. This must change. This will change, and thus the true Sabbath for the true Church of God will emerge for all to see.
Bob2 said: He kept the OC Law perfectly.
Tom said: Jesus was not a Levite. Thus he was breaking the law to work on the Sabbath, as well as to tell others to also break the law. Even worse he said God told him to teach this Reformed, active Sabbath.
Jesus was out to destroy the OC, not keep it perfectly, which he REFUSED to do. Jesus turned his back on the OC so that he could bring the NC to the world.
So Jesus did NOT keep the OC law perfectly. Which is why he was sent to the cross for Sabbath Breaking and blasphemy, and for trying to destroy the entire OC Temple system, even doing away with the Levites and the high priest.
The fact that all this is confusing to you is beside the point.
Bob2 said: I see nowhere He suggests something that breaks the Sabbath.
Tom said: Most everything that Jesus teaches was against the way the Jews viewed things. Jesus taught that it was fine to work on the Sabbath, even as he ignored and repudiated the Preparation Day of the Jews. But Moses teaches the opposite, on pain of death. And so too does God, who wrote the 4th Commandment on tables of stone.
Who was Jesus to make any change to the 10 Commandment law, much less overthrow it and replace it with something new? Only the Messiah would have such authority, but the Jews would not believe Jesus was the Christ. That was the problem. So they fought his reforms, which took place anyway.
This is what the Sabbath debates were all about. Healing was not allowed on the Sabbath, unless there was an emergency. And Jesus made sure to heal people that were not in such a needy state. He was breaking the OC Sabbath on purpose for all to see and follow. I suggest that you do the same thing.
Let all SDA’s take great joy in breaking the OC Sabbath. Let them work, play, worship, cook and eat, all to the glory of the Gospel of God on the 7th day. The “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the SDA’s is dead, and so too are the many OC rules and Sabbath regulations, including this farce whereby the Pastors pretend to be the Levites and the Denomination pretends to be the Temple Storehouse for tithe. This is heresy.
It is time for the SDA’s to REPENT of their OC ways and become NC Adventists. This is what the 4th Angels Message is all about. The last phase of the Advent Movement.
Let those that understand the Gospel comprehend the fact that they are innocent and free from the guilt of law on every day, including the 7th day, where it stands out for all to see. Thus the true believer may work, play, and worship on the 7th day Gospel Sabbath without any fear of sin or guilt. What a remarkable, living memorial to the Gospel!
Jesus had to “break” the OC rules in order to bring in the NC. And so must we today. There was no other way. Let all that are saved make sure their Sabbath is full of active, good works, minus any of the OC rules and guilt.
Look! There is a “new” Sabbath of grace upon grace for all to see and marvel at.
John 1:16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
Bob2 said: Had He (broken the OC law), the Devil would be all over it.
Tom said: Ha! So now you claim to speak for the Devil? You know neither the mind of God or the Devil, so stop speaking for them. You only speak for NCT, and not very well.
Bob2 said: The oral law is what He spoke out about, and the Spirit of Christ Law.
Tom said: Why do you make up false views of the Gospel?
You must know that Jesus addressed the written Torah, as well as the Moral law many times. In fact, the Gospels show that people asking Jesus about the WRITTEN law. (Bob, Have you ever read the NT?)
Mark 12:19 “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that IF A MAN’S BROTHER DIES and leaves behind a wife AND LEAVES NO CHILD, HIS BROTHER SHOULD MARRY THE WIFE AND RAISE UP CHILDREN TO HIS BROTHER.
Luke 20:28 and they questioned Him, saying, “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that IF A MAN’S BROTHER DIES, having a wife, AND HE IS CHILDLESS, HIS BROTHER SHOULD MARRY THE WIFE AND RAISE UP CHILDREN TO HIS BROTHER.
Besides, you must also know that the oral law is based on the written law. Thus to speak about the oral law is to also address the written source. Both of which forbid the activities that Jesus was doing on the 7th day.
Here is but one example of many where Jesus addresses the Moral law, which was written by God and Moses.
Mark 10:19 “You know the commandments, ‘DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.’”
So Bob, stop making things up in order to defend the false doctrine of NCT. This is very wrong and counter productive.
Furthermore, there is no such thing as “the Spirit of Christ’s law.” That is just some made up double-talk to make it seem you know what you are saying, - when you have no clue.
Why not repent of NCT and free yourself of this false theory?
Bob2 said: There is no one that says that the New Covenant has to have a holy day.
Tom said: God is the one who said there must be a holy day in the OC. God’s Son came to earth and took control over this weekly doctrine, re-creating it for the NC church.
Thus, God and Jesus, as well as the Spirit, have placed their seal of approval on the 7th Sabbath; the NC Lord’s Day. So pretend all you want, it is the Word that determines doctrine, nothing else.
Moreover, the OC is the context for the NC. They are closely are forever linked. Which is why the OT is part of the Christian Bible.
Furthermore, both the OC and NC are 100% Jewish. With this fact in mind, how can there not be a Sabbath in both Covenants? There is.
The Church has always practiced a weekly Sabbath, and they were correct to do so because this is what the Gospel teaches.
However, by the 2nd century, they got the wrong day and so too the doctrine, because they treated the 1st day Lord’s Day as if it were the OC Sabbath that prohibited work. (This is why there were Sunday laws). And this is what the vast majority of the church teaches to this very day.
So the church is correctly trying to follow a weekly “holy day,” but they have things confused and wrong. The NC Sabbath is not a “holy day” like it was in the OC. It also not on the 1st day of the week.
Rather, the NC Sabbath is a “Freedom Day” to do good works. Not a holy day to rest and do no work.
Let all repent of this OC, “resting” Sabbath of the SDA’s and even the Sunday keepers. THIS is the wrong Sabbath.
Bob2 said: Why can't you name others that believe the same way as you? Even an article by Des Ford that confirms that you have one who sees it your way.
Tom said: I am glad that you finally understand that Tom Norris and Dr. Ford have the same Gospel theology and the same Gospel Sabbath. Good for you!
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/sabbath/DesCovenants.htm
http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … /intro.cfm
Dr. Ford is an honest, world-class scholar and theologian. He is an expert on Gospel Eschatology as well as the history and the doctrinal development of Adventism. He understands the Word and Church history, even as he correctly defends and promotes the 7th day Gospel Sabbath on level that few can approach. And he has for a very long time. Many have followed his lead, including Tom Norris.
I am proud to stand next to Dr. Ford, the father of Adventist Reform, to proclaim the genuine Gospel, which includes the correct, 7th day, active Sabbath of Christ.
Those that have (correctly) rejected the IJ and embraced the Gospel should know by now that Dr. Ford is on the right path. Unless and until the Denomination apologizes to Dr. Ford for Glacier View, the SDA’s will continue to self-destruct for all to see.
Bob2 said: There are not any commands of Jesus in His life that breaks the OC.
Tom said: Ha! You really don’t know the Gospels very well do you? How can you say such a thing?
Jesus was promoting the elimination and abolishment of the entire Levitical Priesthood and Temple services as part of his active Gospel Sabbath. It is hard to think of him as being OC friendly. He was not.
You must have missed this fact along the way?
Not only that, he was going to become the High Priest of the NC and all that followed him were going to become Gospel Priests who were not allowed under Moses Law. They were also exempt from the law, which is why the Gospel Sabbath becomes such a living lesson on this point.
The Gospel Sabbath underscores the fact that salvation is not by law, but by the authority and power of the Gospel of God.
Jesus teachings are so against the OC, that the leaders were horrified and enraged. He had to die, said the leaders, because he was advocating the overthrow and abolishment of OC Judaism. And so he was…
Let all understand that Jesus was going to dismantle the OC with our without the leaders consent. So even though they tried to stop his ideas from taking hold, they did so anyway, and OC Judaism was destroyed, leaving the Jews homeless until 1947.
Jesus was the greatest “OC lawbreaker” that ever lived. He did more to overthrow, abolish, and destroy the OC than any person in history. To say he kept the OC is utter nonsense and absurdity. He did the opposite. He broke it in a thousand little pieces and threw it into the sea.
Bob2 said: His kingdom He speaks of is the New Covenant.
Tom said: Yes. His Reformed Sabbath was for the NC, for the church. The Reformed 7th day Sabbath is not for legalists, or for any that are not paying attention to Jesus Words.
Bob2 said: Comparing Moses and Jesus, Jesus is a superior Lawgiver.
Tom said: Luther correctly warns us not to think of Christ as if he were a lawgiver like Moses, as if he were a “sheriff.” Jesus did not come to give the law but to save condemned mankind through the Gospel. He is first and foremost our Righteousness and savior before he is our teacher and guide.
Rom. 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom. 5:7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; 1though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
Rom. 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom. 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
Rom. 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom. 5:11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Many Christians think of Christ as a second Moses, a stern Judge who demands obedience to his teachings under pain of eternal death and hell fire. Thus they say we must do x, y, and z or lose eternal life. As if Christ is another Moses with another set of laws. But this is not the Gospel. The law is not the Gospel.
We are not saved by following the law of Christ, which are his teachings, but by his life and death, which are salvific for us through faith. Thus the SDA’s are very wrong to teach character perfection or to think that their “obedience” to either the Law of Moses or to Christ’s teaching, (which they do not know) is salvific. We are saved by Faith in Christ. Not by our obedience or works to Moses or Christ.
This is why the Gospel Sabbath is not about works or law keeping. This is also why there is neither a Preparation Day nor Sabbath breaking observed in the early church Sabbath.
The NC Lord’s Day is meant to be above and beyond the Law, which is why all are free to work on the 7th day Sabbath of Christ without guilt or sin. It is a day that screams freedom from the law, demonstrating that the believer is not under law, but under the authority of Christ.
The Gospel Sabbath is an amazing and sophisticated doctrine that few comprehend. It stunned the Jews and so too it will stun the Gentiles. It is unlike any doctrine the church has taught since the 1st century.
When the Gospel Sabbath is correctly preached, it will cause great debate and study, even as it condemns every denomination. Under the 4th Angels Message, the genuine Gospel and the correct Sabbath is to be clearly and correctly proclaimed to all.
But where are the SDA’s?
Sabbath Reform was part of their mission. The reason why they existed. And now that the goal is coming into sharper focus, they are sound asleep, dreaming OC dreams that make no sense. Pity.
Rev. 16:15 “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”
Bob2 said: Jesus made it clear with His expanded Christ's Law that the Spirit will empower, and that “rest of the soul” is the most important goal for the Christian.
Tom said: Jesus made his views of the Gospel Sabbath very clear, even claiming they came from God. Thus, any double talk that attempts to ignore, change, or manipulate the Gospel Story must be rejected.
Furthermore, there is no such phrase as “rest of the soul” or “soul rest” in the Bible. Stop making things up. You have no right to change the Bible for any reason, much less to defend this nonsense called NCT.
Bob2 said: Not inactivity, but joy because Christ had the power to forgive and grant eternal life, Moses and the OC, including the Decalogue cannot promise that.
Tom said: Your defense of NCT has become irrational and off point.
Bob2 said: I don't refer to your thoughts or writings as garbage, yet you and maybe one other person believes what you say out of all of Christiandom.
Tom said: You have slandered and assailed Adventist Reform countless times, which is your right. However, you have not been able to prove your point, nor to defend NCT, which is utter nonsense and spiritual garbage. It is not credible or true any more than Mormonism or Scientology. Sorry. Don’t shoot the messenger.
NCT is very reckless and irresponsible, even dangerous, because it gives one a false sense of theological hope and superiority over those who are still trying to respect the Word and the law. Better to struggle with the law and the Sabbath then to declare them null and void. That is a certain path away from the Kingdom of God.
Bob2 said: Had Christ altered the OC Law to be able to meet it's tenets, the Devil would have claimed victory.
Tom said: Do not presume to speak for either Christ or the Devil. You are not qualified or empowered to do any such thing.
There can be no doubt that Christ changed the OC Sabbath into a NC version. In doing so, he gave an exemption to all who would follow him as high Priest, thus forever “altering” and abolishing the Levitical Priesthood and the Sabbath.
Jesus and the Gospel are greater than the Law, and this is exactly what the Reformed Sabbath teaches, as well as many other things, including the Priesthood of all Believers.
Bob2 said: But the Lord of the Sabbath has the right to use it as a shadow of the reality He represents in the New Covenant.
Tom said: While Jesus may have the right to do and teach many things, (under God, of course), we can only follow what has been clearly written down in the Gospels.
The fact of the matter is that Jesus does not teach that he is the “shadow” Sabbath, much less that it has been abolished. We must only follow what Jesus teaches, (in the Gospels), not what we want him to teach, or what someone in the 1970’s thinks he taught.
NCT is very much like Gnosticism. It thinks it has uncovered some hidden point about the Gospel. But it has discovered no such thing, even as its’ most fundamental points is based on a false assumption and error.
Bob2 said: To call NCT garbage is an attack on Christ and the Word of God.
Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. So you think that to attack the false doctrine of NCT,- is the same as attacking Christ and the Word? Wow! You anti-Sabbatarians really are full of delusion and double-talk. But you are fooling no one who understands the Word.
2Tim. 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2Tim. 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Why pretend that Jesus supports NCT when he does no such thing? One must be blind to not see the Gospel Sabbath in the NT. And so many are.
Luke 6:39 And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
If NCT were true, there is a great, post resurrection opportunity for Christ to proclaim himself the fulfillment of the shadow Sabbath. But he does no such thing.
While Jesus claims to be many things, like the “alpha and the omega,” and the “Amen” and the “true witness,” he never says he is the Sabbath or its shadow. A fatal point for this new and trite heresy.
Rev. 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
In other words, Jesus cannot be limited to one day, not even if it were the 7th. He is not a 1 in 7 Christ, but a 24/7 Savior. Thus, the beginning and the end cannot also be the 7th day. That is just the end.
To further underscore this point, Jesus shows the impossibility of him being called the Sabbath, as if one day could contain his greatness. Thus he refers to himself in Rev 3: 14 as the “Beginning of the Creation of God,” -not the end, as in the 7th day.
Of course if NCT were true, Jesus would have had to claim that he was the Shadow Sabbath, the end of Creation and the rest of God. But he does not say any such thing, and in fact says the opposite.
Jesus played an active role as Creator, not a passive one, which is why his Sabbath is so active and full of works. And while he is Lord of the Sabbath, he is also Lord of the other 6 days as well. Which further explains why he would never claim to be the Sabbath, our Sabbath rest, as NCT claims.
Rev. 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
NCT makes Christ sick. It literally makes him vomit, and it should do the same to anyone that understands the Gospel correctly. Jesus is not the Sabbath, nor did he fulfill or abolish this memorial to the Creation of all things.
NCT is great error. It is anti-Christ and anti-Gospel. It is a movement led by false prophets to breed more false prophets. It is a scam, designed to trick the lambs into following a false path and false Sheppard.
Matt. 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matt. 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Let all beware the error of NCT. It is not a solution for legalism nor does it resolve the Sabbath debate. It is just more confused and false doctrine that does not hold up under examination. Those SDA’s that have embraced this theology will have to repent and move on to the 7th day, active, Gospel Sabbath of Christ if they are being led by Spirit and the Word.
Come on SDA’s!!
Wake up and get moving forward to the 4th Angels Message. Who knows how much time is left before the Great Tribulation strikes?
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, I haven't read your whole post, as usual. lengthy. What I would point out, if you are going to say the Decalogue still is in effect, then Christ kept the 10 Commandments perfectly. Prove chapter and verse where this notion of a Gospel Sabbath other than Christ comes from. What the Jews had to do in the desert to survive meant strict Mosaic rule that would adjust as society changed. But that need to adjust is the oral law that became something corrupt by the leaders. I point out that the Jews viewed the Law as the whole first 5 books of the Bible. Show me one rule, that was among the desert rules that did not adjust fairly, and I will show a corrupt rule that Christ was pointing to in His argument with the Pharisees. Otherwise you have a Law that was not kept perfectly and our salvation is at stake. Again chapter in verse show where laws that were to be kept were broken. The 4th Commandment was supported by Christ in His lifetime, the oral law is what Christ was angered by, the misuse of the church leaders authority.
You have not shown that your Gospel Sabbath is a valid concept. I see what you put forth as "another gospel" or an issue that is debateable and man will not be judged on, but should be convinced in their own heart that what they do outside of Christ's Law is valid and for edification of all. I think this is at the heart of where your "message" goes wrong. Where you want the moral, civil and ceremonial separation, in this case you bring civil and ceremonial under the Decalogue. Christ fulfilled the whole law in His flesh. It is statements like the following that keep SDAs borderline cultic, though it is from another denomination, it is an SDA view:
In God's Kingdom, everyone will keep the seventh-day Sabbath. What a wonderful world that will be. True Christians, in their worship, are foreshadowing that time today.
http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/magazines … he-sabbath
How arrogant a shot at all that worship on other days. They are not True Christians by this author's view. Now read Col 2:16-17 and tell me how Biblical that statement is.
Matthew 5:17-18 (NKJV) "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Luke 24: 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
The SDAs and you, apparently don't believe Matt 5 or Luke 24 quotes above, nor that Christ fulfilled all as He said. You want to keep every jot and tittle in place in your Gospel when Christ fulfilled all that was written about Him in the OC/OT.
Last edited by bob_2 (09-01-11 10:37 am)
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Tom, Christ IS the Covenant, but you want to hang on to what Christ fulfilled, INCLUDING THE SABBATH!!
Isaiah 42:6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles
Your position is flawed.
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Bob2 said: Tom, I haven't read your whole post, as usual. lengthy.
Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. Why ignore the points that prove you wrong? You need to face up to these issues and either prove them wrong-- if you can, or repent. But you can’t seem to do either. So instead of admitting the obvious and repenting, you ignore the facts and pretend you are correct.
But you are only fooling yourself. Just because you refuse to read the evidence that condemns your views, it does not mean you win the debate. It means you lose-- because you are unable to defend you false views.
This is how the IJ crowd would also act. They would repeat their false doctrine over and over, even as they ignored certain points, which condemned them. This delusion allowed those, like Clifford Goldstein, to pretend their TSDA views could stand, when they were hopelessly wrong and proven so for all to see.
I think you read the entire post,-- and realized that you could no longer defend NCT. So you dishonestly ignored what proved you wrong. Pitiful.
I think you read the Words of the risen Christ in that last post and realized the hopelessness of your position. While you don’t want to admit it, you need to do so. It should be clear that NCT is utter nonsense.
Once again, here are the words of Christ that disprove NCT. Stop pretending they do not exist and repent for your arrogance and false doctrine before it is too late:
While Jesus claims to be many things, like the “alpha and the omega,” the “Amen,” and the “true witness,” he never says he is the Sabbath or its shadow or fulfillment. A fatal point for this new and trite heresy called NCT.
Rev. 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Furthermore, Jesus cannot be limited to one day, not even if it were the 7th. He is not a 1 in 7 Christ, but a 7-day Savior.
Thus, Jesus is NOT comparing himself to the Sabbath, and in fact makes it clear that he no intention of doing so. He is not just the end of the Creation; he was also around at the beginning. Thus he does not and cannot represent the 7th day. He is greater than the 7th day and in fact, created this doctrine in the first place.
To further underscore this point, Jesus shows the impossibility of him being called the Sabbath, as if one day could contain his greatness. Thus he refers to himself in Rev 3: 14 as the “Beginning of the Creation of God,” -not the end, as in the 7th day.
This statement of Christ proves NCT impossible. Jesus is not to be equated with the Sabbath. Nor did he fulfill it while here on earth. Rather, he reformed it for the NC, even as he abolished the Priesthood that enforced the OC Law of Moses on the people.
Of course if NCT were true, Jesus would have had to claim, somewhere in the NT, that he is the Shadow Sabbath, the fulfillment of the Sabbath, and the end of Creation, even the “rest of God.” But he says NO such thing, anywhere, at any time. In fact, he says the opposite.
This is the end of the matter. None are authorized to place words in Jesus’ mouth and false doctrines in his head.
Jesus played an active role as Creator, not a passive one, which is why his Sabbath is so active and full of works. And while he is Lord of the Sabbath, he is also Lord of the other 6 days as well. Which further explains why he would never claim to be the Sabbath, or our Sabbath rest, as NCT insists. Nor did he ever teach such a point. IT NEVER HAPPENED!
Rev. 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
NCT makes Christ sick. It literally makes him vomit, and it should do the same to anyone that understands the Gospel correctly. Jesus is not the Sabbath, nor did he fulfill or abolish this memorial to the Creation of all things. But he did REFORM it for the church. THIS is the correct, 7th day, Sabbath for the church.
NCT is great error. It is anti-Christ and anti-Gospel. It is a movement led by false prophets to breed more false prophets. It is a scam, designed to trick the lambs into following a false path and false Sheppard.
Matt. 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matt. 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Let all beware the error of NCT. It is not a solution for SDA legalism nor does it resolve the Sabbath debate. It is just more confused and false doctrine that does not hold up under examination.
Those SDA’s that have embraced this theology, like Richard Fredericks or Dale Ratzlaff will repent and move on to the active, 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ if they are led by the Spirit and the Word.
----------------------------------------------------------
Bob, those that fail to respond coherently in this Gospel discussion, ignoring the points they cannot refute, lose the argument. So you lose.
Moreover, those that stick their fingers in their ears, in order to protect their false views, are acting like the 1st century Jews. What a pity that Jesus could not speak the Gospel directly to the people. There was so much error and false doctrine within Judaism, that his NC words of truth could not be comprehended. And so it is today…
Matt. 13:13 “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
John 8:47 “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
Acts 7:57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse.
Acts 7:58 When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul.
Acts 7:59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”
Those that refuse to go to the Gospels and hear the Gospel, directly from Christ, are doomed.
Those either too lazy or too preoccupied with the cares of life to learn what the great Teacher is really saying, will not gain Eternal Life. And neither will those that refuse to honestly examine and discuss the Word. They are not part of the Kingdom of God. They are pretenders. Wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Let all run from NCT.
Bob2 said: What I would point out, if you are going to say the Decalogue still is in effect, then Christ kept the 10 Commandments perfectly.
Tom said: The Law is still a guide in the NC. It has never been removed for that purpose. This is why Jesus teaches that love to God and to others is part of the Law in both covenants.
Matt. 22:35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him,
Matt. 22:36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
Matt. 22:37 And He said to him, “‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’
Matt. 22:38 “This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt. 22:39 “The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’
Matt. 22:40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
Paul also agrees:
1Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
So how can the Law not be part of the NC? It is still the basis for how we are to treat others. This is what Jesus clearly teaches.
Matt. 7:12 “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Are you sure you want to remove the law, -so that the saints can treat people badly? So that they can have other gods, murder, steal, and kill? Is this what NCT teaches? Those Christians that claim the law is “abolished” have no idea what they are saying. They are doomed for their lawlessness.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
While the Christian is not under the law, they are also not without the law. They have both the law of God and the law of Christ. But we are only under the latter regarding salvation. But the former has not been removed or repudiated.
Matt. 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
Matt. 5:18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Matt. 5:19 “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under 1the Law;
1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
Christians are not lawless, they are spiritual Jews who have been born again into the Jewish Story, which is the Gospel Story. Thus any that follow Christ today, have also become part of the OT story where the law, which was good, was given by God to the Jews.
1Cor. 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
1Cor. 10:2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Cor. 10:3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
1Cor. 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock, which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
Thus the Christian has been reborn into the Jewish world of the Two Covenants, where law will always play an important role.
As for the Sabbath Law;
Jesus did not obey the Sabbath according to the Law of Moses. This is an irrefutable fact of the record.
While Jesus embraced the Sabbath as a memorial to creation, a weekly time to come together and hear the Word of God, etc., he had a very different view of this doctrine from the OC Jews. (One where all could work, without sin or guilt.)
Jesus was not a Levite and thus he had no exemption to work, (or heal) on the Sabbath. However, because he was the Son of God, he had a Priestly exemption from God, because he was going to be the high priest of the NC.
So yes, he broke the Sabbath law, but he was not guilty of sin. Why? Because he had a priestly exemption from his Father.
We too have a Gospel exemption to work on the reformed, 7th day, Sabbath, aka, the Lord’s Day. We too are considered Priests of God in the NC, and thus there is no sin or guilt associated with doing any work on the 7th day.
Bob2 said: Prove chapter and verse where this notion of a Gospel Sabbath other than Christ comes from.
Tom said: Why do you seek to establish doctrine from others, and not from Christ? You do know that Christ is the head of the church and the Son of God? Whatever he teaches, we must follow. Including his view of the active, reformed Sabbath for the church.
I repeat, only Christ has the authority to create doctrine, and thus it is to Christ that all must go for doctrine.
While there are many passages that could be cited to show the Gospel Sabbath, here is a self-evident passage, written by an eyewitness. (The fact that many misunderstand the actual NC Sabbath is beside the point.)
Rev. 1:9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
Rev. 1:11 saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”
According to John, the entire book of Revelation was given to him, as a vision, on the 7th day Sabbath, the Lord’s day. While may assume this must be Sunday, John was a Jew, and thus there is no possibility that the 1st day of the week is being referenced.
Moreover, we know this was the Reformed Sabbath of Christ because Jesus is commanding John to perform the work of writing on the Sabbath. An activity forbidden on the OC Sabbath.
Prohibited Sabbath Activities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activities … at#Writing
See further: Mishneh Torah Shabbos 11:9–17, 23:12–19; Shulkhan Arukh Orach Chayim 340; Chayei Adam Shabbos 36
So we know from this passage, as well as from others, that the early church had a Lord’s Day, and that it did not follow the OC rules against work.
Moreover, the apostle that coined the phrase “Lord’s Day,” also had written much about the Reformed Sabbath of Christ in the Gospel of John. Thus John was there to witness the Sabbath debates, and to see and hear the reformed NC Sabbath in action, which created so much controversy and led directly to the cross.
Now that you know there is a Lord’s Day in the early church, repent for the error of NCT and go to the book of John and read all that you can about this NC Sabbath for the church. Then go to the other three Gospels and do the same. Learn the Gospel and save your soul.
Bob2 said: What the Jews had to do in the desert to survive meant strict Mosaic rule that would adjust as society changed.
Tom said: The 4th Commandment did not allow work on the 7th day –except for the Levites. This law was in effect in the dessert, and also in the promised land. And so too in the 1st century when Jesus was alive. There was never a point when the no work on the 7th day was going to change to the opposite. Not even today, within Orthodox Judaism is it allowed to work on the Sabbath, meaning no cooking, etc., etc.
So your point is wrong.
The OC law does not allow work on the Sabbath. Which is why the Sabbath needs a Friday “Preparation Day.” So there was to be no “cultural adjustment” to this rule by Jesus, as you claim. He was making a theological statement with his Reformed Sabbath, not a cultural one.
But the law of God and of Moses was clear. In fact, Moses actually had a man put to death for Sabbath breaking. When you read this passage, it is not hard to understand how the Jewish leaders must have felt about Jesus Sabbath actions. It seemed certain that Jesus was defiantly disobeying God’s Commandment about the Sabbath, and thus he should be cut off from his people, even killed. This was the written rule about Sabbath breaking.
Num. 15:30 ‘But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Num. 15:31 ‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt will be on him.’”
Num. 15:32 Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day.
Num. 15:33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation;
Num. 15:34 and they put him in custody because it had not been 2declared what should be done to him.
Num. 15:35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.”
Num. 15:36 So all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.
It is important to understand why there was such a negative reaction from the leaders about Jesus new Sabbath. There was a very good reason for their concern. Jesus proposed to not only disobey the Sabbath rules, but to also abolish the Levites, even as he declared all to be Gospel Priests of God. These ideas were so revolutionary and paradigm shifting that they stood little chance with the leaders then, or the leaders today.
Thus the NC was not a cultural adjustment, but a vast theological improvement of OC Judaism. In reality, reformed Judaism equals the Christian Faith. The Church is the new Israel of God, even as the Gospel trumps law as a method for salvation.
Bob2 said: But that need to adjust is the oral law that became something corrupt by the leaders.
Tom said: The WRITTEN Law did not allow work on the Sabbath. No fires, no cooking, no gathering sticks to even light a fire, no work of any kind. Thus the Torah records an account where Moses used Capital Punishment against a Sabbath Breaker. So forget this nonsense about oral tradition.
In fact, as a result of this Sabbath breaking incident, God required the Israelites to wear reminders on their clothing to obey his law, including and especially the Sabbath.
Num. 15:37 The LORD also spoke to Moses, saying,
Num. 15:38 “Speak to the sons of Israel, and tell them that they shall make for themselves tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and that they shall put on the tassel of each corner a cord of blue.
Num. 15:39 “It shall be a tassel for you to look at and remember all the commandments of the LORD, so as to do them and not follow after your own heart and your own eyes, after which you played the harlot,
Num. 15:40 so that you may remember to do all My commandments and be holy to your God.
Num. 15:41 “I am the LORD your God who brought you out from the land of Egypt to be your God; I am the LORD your God.”
The Sabbath had strict written rules, and Moses put a man to death for Sabbath Breaking to make the point stick. So when Jesus comes along, he not only breaks the Sabbath in a way typically deserving death, but also attempts to change the entire OC system.
Is it any wonder he was killed? How could he not be? But of course that was the plan, and thus the NC was born, and the very ideas that killed Christ became reality. And to this day the church stands as a memorial to the teaching of Christ, whose holy ideas could not be stopped.
Bob, you need to stop trying to change the OT to fit your false theories. No work, meant no work, except for the Levites.
Bob2 said: I point out that the Jews viewed the Law as the whole first 5 books of the Bible.
Tom said: Agreed. The written Torah is clear-- no work on the Sabbath. Moses had a man put to death for gathering sticks on the Sabbath. This account is in the written Torah and thus you need to stop pretending that Jesus was only breaking some oral traditions. Jesus broke the Sabbath law on purpose for all to see. It was no accident, nor was he only trying to change the oral law.
Jesus is greater than the Torah. He taught a better Sabbath, a Reformed Sabbath, for the NC church. One that subordinated the law to the Gospel, featuring a changed Priesthood.
Bob2 said: Show me one rule, that was among the desert rules that did not adjust fairly, and I will show a corrupt rule that Christ was pointing to in His argument with the Pharisees.
Tom said: You are being incoherent. I don’t know what you are talking about and I don’t think you do either.
The rule against work on the Sabbath was not just for the desert period. The same Sabbath rules against work also prevailed in all Israel. This is why Jesus caused such a stir wherever he went in Israel. He had a very different view of things, including the Sabbath.
Good for him. I would much prefer to live in the NC than the OC. Which is why the NC Sabbath is so much better than the OC schoolmaster Sabbath.
What a pity that so few understand the Gospel correctly enough to comprehend the Reformed Sabbath of Christ.
Bob2 said: Otherwise you have a Law that was not kept perfectly and our salvation is at stake.
Tom said: You don’t understand either the law or the Gospel, so stop pretending. Jesus does not have to follow all the OC rules as you claim, nor would this be a problem for our salvation.
Jesus was the Son of God. His mission was to replace the OC with the NC. Thus he had to break many OC rules, which is why the Jews sent him to the cross. He really did break many OC laws, both written and oral. But that was part of his job description.
Bob2 said: Again chapter in verse show where laws that were to be kept were broken.
Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
Mark 2:24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath
Luke 6:2 But some of the Pharisees said, “Why do you do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”
Jesus broke the 4th commandment by choice, even as he taught his followers to do the same thing. Those that understand the Gospel correctly will also embrace the 7th day Gospel Sabbath correctly, while all others will remain perplexed and unaware.
Bob2 said: The 4th Commandment was supported by Christ in His lifetime, the oral law is what Christ was angered by, the misuse of the church leaders authority.
Tom said: The WRITTEN law said “no work” on the Sabbath, even as the it also declared that the Levites were in charge of the Priesthood. But Christ did not support either the Levitical Priesthood or the Sabbath law against work.
So your point is obviously wrong.
Bob2 said: You have not shown that your Gospel Sabbath is a valid concept.
Tom said: Ha! I have no power to heal the blind. So I can’t help you. Those that think they can see, when they are really blind, are in a hopeless situation. Their delusion prevents them from getting the help they need, even as their pride keeps them out of the Kingdom of God.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
Bob2 said; I see what you put forth as "another gospel" or an issue that is debatable and man will not be judged on, but should be convinced in their own heart that what they do outside of Christ's Law is valid and for edification of all.
Tom said: The law of Christ includes his active, reformed, Sabbath. Any that think otherwise will be in for a great shock at the last Judgment. NCT can ignore the Sabbath teachings of Jesus all they want, but it will not change the facts.
Bob2 said: Where you want the moral, civil and ceremonial separation, in this case you bring civil and ceremonial under the Decalogue. Christ fulfilled the whole law in His flesh.
Tom said: You are being incoherent again. I have no idea what you are trying to say. Do you?
Bob2 said: It is statements like the following that keep SDAs borderline cultic, though it is from another denomination, it is an SDA view:
Tom said: The SDA’s are a genuine cult. There is no “borderline” about it. Unless they repent and embrace the Gospel correctly, they are no better off than the Mormons, Scientologists, or RC’s.
Bob2 quoted: In God's Kingdom, everyone will keep the seventh-day Sabbath. What a wonderful world that will be. True Christians, in their worship, are foreshadowing that time today.
http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/magazines … he-sabbath
Tom said: This was a pretty good article. It made a number of correct points that disprove NCT. Here are some good points that were made.
“Yes, it was Jesus' regular custom to worship on the Sabbath! What day of the week was that? Since the time of Jesus, and centuries before, the Jewish community has very carefully documented its observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, from sunset Friday through sunset Saturday. We know from thousands of carefully kept records that the seven-day cycle of the week has not been broken. Those who worship on the seventh day today are worshiping on the same day Jesus did!”
“Ask yourself: did Jesus set His example of keeping the Sabbath, and all the biblical precepts, so that we would not need to? Shockingly, this is what many preachers teach today! But did Jesus even once tell His followers to ignore His example? No! Not only did Jesus keep the commandments, He instructed others to keep them as well. He said, "If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17). Jesus' answer clearly showed He was speaking of the Ten Commandments.”
As for Paul:
“We have seen that it was Jesus' practice to observe the Sabbath. Did the Apostle Paul—the "apostle to the Gentiles"—observe the Sabbath, or did he set an example showing that Gentile Christians need not do so? Remember, Paul was trained as a Pharisee, and knew Scripture very well. When Paul was in Greece, in the city of Thessalonica, he preached for three Sabbaths in a row to the Jews in the synagogue. Notice that this was Paul's custom—he regularly preached on the Sabbath. "Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, 'This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ'" (Acts 17:2–3).
“So, we see that Paul regularly preached to the Jews on the Sabbath. But did he also speak to the Gentiles on the Sabbath? Notice what he did in the Gentile city of Corinth, in Greece. "And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks" (Acts 18:4)! Yes, Paul preached to the Gentiles on the Sabbath!”
http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/magazines … he-sabbath
Bob2 said: How arrogant a shot at all that worship on other days. They are not True Christians by this author's view.
Tom said: Those that claim the 7th day is the correct day for the Christian Sabbath are correct. Sunday is wrong, and so too the Sunday laws that tried to force people to obey the 4th Commandment by not working. This is not the Sabbath of Christ.
So this pro- 7th day author understands the Bible better than those that think Sunday is the Lord’s Day. No doubt this has led some to become arrogant, like the SDA’s. But what good did that do for them? They still have the wrong Sabbath doctrine, even if they do have the correct day.
While this pro 7th day article has some major flaws, it also makes some very good and correct points for the 7th day. Here is one about Hebrews:
“The book of Hebrews depicts the Sabbath as a foreshadowing of the Earth's millennial rest, as well as a memorial of God's rest at creation. Regarding the ancient Israelites' disobedience on their way to the promised land, we read, "For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest for the people of God" (Hebrews 4:8–9). The original Greek word for "rest" in verse 9 is sabbatismos, which means "a Sabbath-keeping" (see Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words). Both the Revised Standard Version and the New International Version translate verse 9 as "a Sabbath rest."
“Yes, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, even to this day! But is it merely a symbolic rest, or is it a literal Sabbath rest? If you have access to a copy of the Anchor Bible Dictionary, you can see for yourself that in other contexts, including secular Greek writings not dependent on this verse from Hebrews, that sabbatismos plainly and literally means "Sabbath observance" or "Sabbath celebration." There is no question that this verse is a New Testament statement about a literal Christian observance of the Sabbath!”
http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/magazines … he-sabbath
If the 7th day is correct, where is the error in this article?
Their error is to equate the NC Sabbath with rest and no work. Listen as they reach the wrong conclusion about the correct 7th day Sabbath.
“If Christians are to cease from their works, just as God ceased from His (Hebrews 4:10), we must ask: how did God cease from His works? Scripture gives us the answer: "For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all His works'" (Hebrews 4:4).
“There is no guessing here! New Testament Christians are supposed to rest just as God rested—on the seventh Day! Both the Old Testament and the New Testament give Christians the clear example and instruction to keep the Sabbath day holy! If you consider the Bible your authority, rather than some church tradition that claims to overrule the Bible, you have no other choice! So, what is your authority?”…
“In God's Kingdom, everyone will keep the seventh-day Sabbath. What a wonderful world that will be. True Christians, in their worship, are foreshadowing that time today.”
http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/magazines … he-sabbath
Here is the Problem for 7th day Sabbatarians:
Jesus did not teach anyone to “cease from their works” on the Sabbath. In fact, he taught the OPPOSITE. So at least they got the right day. But not the correct doctrine. Let all understand this Gospel point.
Bob2 quotes some random texts: Now read Col 2:16-17 and tell me how Biblical that statement is. Matthew 5:17-18 (NKJV) "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Luke 24: 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
Tom said: Bob, you proof texting methodology is useless. None of these passages says that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath and now it is abolished for the church. No church scholar has ever said this is what these texts teach.
So you need to stop making things up and treating the Word with such disrespect and dishonesty.
Bob2 said: The SDAs and you, apparently don't believe Matt 5 or Luke 24 quotes above, nor that Christ fulfilled all as He said.
Tom said: No one should believe NCT. It is based on utter nonsense and double-talk. Christ “fulfilled” the OC prophecies about the cross. However, there were no prophecies in the OT about the Messiah becoming the Sabbath and then abolishing it. So give it a rest. (Pun intended).
So again, stop making things up. Stop trying to re-write the Gospel Story to fit your false views.
Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
Luke 24:45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
Luke 24:46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,
Luke 24:47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Luke 24:48 “You are witnesses of these things.
Bob2 said: You want to keep every jot and tittle in place in your Gospel when Christ fulfilled all that was written about Him in the OC/OT.
Tom said: While Christ fulfilled the OC prophecies about himself and the NC, this idea that he has fulfilled and removed the Sabbath, (or any of the Moral law), is absurd.
Did he also fulfill the 1st Commandment about only having one God? Yes he did. Does this mean that God is now abolished? This is crazy talk. Fulfilled does not mean abolish, nor does it have any reference to the Sabbath as you claim. So your whole theory is worthless double-talk. NCT is garbage!
In conclusion, there is only one Gospel and one NC Sabbath for the church. NCT knows neither one.
Anyone that has embraced this anti-Gospel drivel must repent or be lost. It is that simple.
Every false view of the Sabbath, whether by the Sunday Keepers or the 7th day crowd, must be repudiated so that the one and only Sabbath of Christ is embraced.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for the 7th day Gospel Sabbath
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Tom,you have made your own rules for work that God nor Jesus agree too. You have made an idol out of day, as if that day leads to salvation. Only Christ our Sabbath (Col 2:16-17). Notice in
John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Your definition of work is what is at issue here for you and the Pharisees. There is nothing in the 4 th Commandment that Jesus broke. He was showing what was and was not work. This streamedout of the pharisee oral law.That is what he is talking about. You, I fear want Sabbath more than Salvation.
Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Your theory is flawed. I won't use condemning words, since Col 2:16, 17 say not to judge one another on this point.
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Bob, first off, the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ is not "my" idea. I did not write the Gospels. Blame the Apostles, blame Jesus, and blame God.
If you can't "see" Jesus Gospel Sabbath, then so be it. But understand that this places you on the side of the Pharisees. They too were blind to the NC Sabbath, even though they pretended they understood all doctrine better than all others.
One of the features of the Gospel is to test who will follow Gospel truth and who is just pretending. You are pretending, and so too all the Pastors involved in this scam called NCT. It is a bad as the IJ, if not more stupid.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that cthose who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “aWe are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “aIf you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is aa thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is aa shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear ahis voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and bleads them out.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know athe voice of strangers.”
Bob the blind. You must choose to follow the genuine Christ of the Word, the one with the 7th day, active Lord's Day; or the false version that teaches NCT, and the total abolishment of the Sabbath in the NC.
Only one is correct. Only one can give anyone Eternal Life.
Choose wisely.
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Tom, all your texts of warning are texts that you can not show applies to our discussion. That is unChristlike. When you can demonstrate that the fold and narrow door apply here, you will have my attention. Until then you are berating people, slandering and liabling them. In order for your version to be correct you have to throw out too many NT/NC verses which you do not address properly. You are like a dog with a bone, burying then digging it up, burying then digging it up, by yourself no less.
The best thing for you and I is to be convinced in our own mind, I am. Also, it would help to show more people believe the same interpretation as you. Remember, Think for yourself, not by yourself.
Last edited by bob_2 (09-08-11 2:23 am)
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Bob2 said: Tom, all your texts of warning are texts that you cannot show applies to our discussion.
Tom said: Jesus often warned those who repudiated his Gospel. He even called the Jewish leaders “blind” to make the point that they were in the dark about God, the Law, and the Gospel.
You too are blind when it comes to the Gospel and to the Word. I suggest that you stop pretending that you “see,” so that you can get some help.
Bob2 said: That is unChristlike.
Tom replied: Those that understand the Gospel have a duty to follow the teachings and example of Jesus, - by warning those who are in the dark. It serves no purpose to pretend.
Anyone that embraces NCT, is in the dark about the Gospel. While this hypocritical, anti-Sabbatarian crowd proudly claims to understand theology better than all others, they are spiritually blind as bats. They are blind men who are trying to get other blind men to join their cause against Christ and his Reformed Sabbath.
Luke 6:39 And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
Bob2 said: When you can demonstrate that the fold and narrow door apply here, you will have my attention. Until then you are berating people, slandering and liabling them.
Tom said: It should be self evident, at least for those who can “see” and “hear” what Jesus is saying. His point is simply that he is the head of the church. Only his views, teachings, and Gospel doctrine are valid. Anyone that makes up other views, is a fraud, not to be followed.
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
In other words, anyone that declares there is no Sabbath for the church, (or any false doctrine), is not following the teachings of Christ. No one has any such authority. No one can go beyond the teachings of Christ.
Those who embrace NCT, or any false doctrine, are pretenders, “strangers,” and trespassers. They are not to be let in the church, much less their views embraced.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
Those who embrace NCT, do “NOT KNOW THE VOICE OF CHRIST,” nor do they understand the Gospel. They are following a false and evil voice that does not come from God. Which is why Jesus depicts them, as criminals and low life’s, not fit for the Kingdom of God.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
NCT = another way. Those who promote this heresy, or any other, like tithe or the IJ, or the secret rapture, etc., etc., will be treated as common criminals, only to be found guilty on Judgment Day.
NCT is spiritual suicide. Let all beware.
Bob2 said: In order for your version to be correct you have to throw out too many NT/NC verses, which you do not address properly.
Tom said: It is comical when a blind person tries to correct those that can see.
The fact of the matter is this: NCT must ignore, repudiate, and remove the many Sabbath teachings of Christ in order to exist.
NCT is based on one false assumption after another, which is why it is an impossible sham. One cannot be a Christian and embrace this garbage. It is not possible. And this is exactly the point Jesus is making. Too bad you missed it!
Bob2 said: You are like a dog with a bone, burying then digging it up, burying then digging it up, by yourself no less.
Tom said: Those who spend their time teaching the Gospel to the blind are not to be called dogs. Nor does this response make any sense or in any way rehabilitate NCT, which has been proven to be garbage that needs to be buried and left in the ground to rot away.
See:
NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
Bob2 said: The best thing for you and I is to be convinced in our own mind, I am.
Tom said: Pluralism is not taught in the Bible. This idea that we must do what we think best is not part of the Gospel, or any credible hermeneutic. It is dangerous error, which allows people to believe whatever they want, whenever they want.
The Jewish leaders were fully convinced that Jesus teaching was wrong. So much so that they never gave his Gospel views a chance. So they killed Christ on the Friday Preparation day, and then went and observed the OC Sabbath. The very one that Jesus was trying to change and reform.
But of course they were wrong, regardless of what they thought in their minds. And so too are you, regardless how you feel.
There is only one Gospel and one Gospel Sabbath. There is only one God and one Jesus Christ, whose teachings are contained in the four Gospels. Only the genuine can save.
Those that follow the teachings of Christ, must also think like him and have his mind, not their own. In fact, all those who claim to follow Christ are to have the SAME MIND, maintaining the SAME LOVE, SPIRIT, and PURPOSE. There is to be no pluralism or division in the church.
Rom. 12:16 Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but 1associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation.
Rom. 15:5 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,
1Cor. 1:10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Phil. 2:2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
Bob2 said: Also, it would help to show more people believe the same interpretation as you.
Tom said: Those that ask for a sign, in order to believe the Gospel teachings of Christ, have condemned themselves. One must believe the Word by faith, not by signs.
Mark 8:11 The Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, to test Him.
Mark 8:12 Sighing deeply in His spirit, He *said, “Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation.”
Moreover, when the Gospel was first preached, NO ONE “believed” what Jesus was saying. He stunned and amazed large crowds. No one had ever heard of such Gospel ideas that flowed from the mind of Christ.
John 7:43 So a division occurred in the crowd because of Him.
John 7:44 Some of them wanted to seize Him, but no one laid hands on Him.
John 7:45 The officers then came to the chief priests and Pharisees, and they said to them, “Why did you not bring Him?”
John 7:46 The officers answered, “Never has a man spoken the way this man speaks.”
John 7:47 The Pharisees then answered them, “You have not also been led astray, have you?
John 7:48 “No one of the rulers or Pharisees has believed in Him, has he?
It is the enemies of the Gospel that asked “who else has believed these new doctrines?” Which is your same question. Those who embrace NCT think like the enemies of Christ. Sad.
Truth is truth, regardless how many think otherwise. Only those who carefully and honestly follow the Word will find Gospel truth.
Bob2 said: Remember, Think for yourself, not by yourself.
Tom said: This view is not found in the Bible. So why do I want to remember it? Forget this view, it is wrong.
Jesus clearly taught that everyone (who is saved) must think like he does. Nowhere does he teach that we are free to make up are own views about God, man, or religion, and “think for ourselves.”
In fact, he goes so far as to say that man’s natural thinking is so convoluted and twisted, that it can only lead to the persecution and murder of those who do follow the genuine Gospel.
Listen to Jesus; He will teach you how to think about every area of life, as well as how not to think about certain things.
Matt. 5:44 “But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Matt. 6:25 “For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?
Matt. 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
Matt. 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
John 5:45 “Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
John 16:2 “They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.
Those that follow Christ must think like him. When Jesus says: “I say,” (which he does about 100 times), he means we are to listen and embrace his Words, INCLUDING his new view of the active, REFORMED, 7th day Sabbath.
None are free to make up their own view of theology or history. Paul also makes this clear.
Rom. 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
Rom. 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
Rom. 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
Rom. 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
Rom. 15:5 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,
1Cor. 1:10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1Cor. 2:16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.
NCT does not follow the mind or teachings of Christ. It is false, divisive, and strange doctrine.
Many who claim to follow Christ, have no real understanding of his mind or what he teaches. Looking at the doctrine of the Sabbath in the church today easily proves this point. Not one denomination teaches the Sabbath like Jesus. NOT ONE!
Most don’t even have the right day. While those who do, like the SDA’s, have embraced the OC schoolmaster Sabbath, the doctrine of Christ’s enemies, and the later enemies of Paul.
Which is why the Pre Advent Judgment, which is the Laodicean Message, is so damning to all organized religion. All are declared wrong and unsaved. Only when the Gospel teachings of Christ are correctly understood, can the true NC Sabbath emerge in the church.
NCT is not helping. This 1970’s idea that there is no Sabbath for the church is utterly absurd, without any theological or historical basis. This lazy and misguided attempt to solve the long running debate about the Sabbath is pathetic.
I am embarrassed that so many former SDA’s, like Richard Fredericks and Dale Ratzleff could even embrace this garbage. They walk like blind men, out of one ditch and into another. They have not gone forward in the Gospel, but backwards; away from Christ, and away from Eternal Life. They are misleading many.
While they were very correct to repudiate Traditional Adventism, with its OC “Schoolmaster” Sabbath, they failed to find the correct Gospel Sabbath for the church.
Being either too lazy or too stupid to figure it out, they embraced the error and the hypocrisy of NCT, as they abandoned the 7th day in favor of Sunday. Then to add error on top of error, they claimed there was no truth in the Three Angels Messages, when there is plenty. There is really no truth or pedigree in NCT.
NCT is an evil and absurd theory that must be rejected by all that follow the Good Sheppard. Jesus does not teach that he is the Sabbath; much less that he will abolish this ancient doctrine after the cross. Nor does he teach that the church is to meet together every Sunday, like all the NCT hypocrites do.
NCT is garbage. There is no basis for it in the Gospels. What else is there to say? It has no value. It is not true.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris, for the Gospel Sabbath of Christ
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Tom, the Sabbath is not the Gospel, it is at best works. If Jesus fulfilled:
Luke 24: 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
then you need to accept that and not try to be part tSDA and part Evangelical Christian. I know your position and noone else has it. Maybe you and that Shepard's Rod guy outside our church at home do have something in common, YOUR OWN OPINION. Show me how you got the position you do, when no one else calls the Sabbath the Reformed or Gospel Sabbath.
Jesus acted while on earth to statisfy the OC He was born under. That doesn't mean we should keep all the Jewish Festivals or bring animal sacrifices to the church. Note these articles on this topic:
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Bob2 said: Tom, the Sabbath is not the Gospel, it is at best works. If Jesus fulfilled Luke 24: 44.
Tom replied: First, your view of Luke is way off. You are not even close to understanding what he is saying.
Second; the OC Sabbath is obsessed with many rules relating to “works.” So much so that there is a forced “rest,” under pain of death, to make sure no work is done on the Sabbath. This is not the Gospel Sabbath.
Third: The NC Sabbath of Christ, by contrast, is not about forced rest but activity and good works on the Sabbath. All without sin or guilt. It is a very different view of the Sabbath from the OT.
As for Luke 24: This passage is not saying what you claim. In fact, it condemns your view.
Why? Because there is no record that Jesus ever spoke to his disciples about him becoming the fulfillment of the Sabbath. If you think so, please show us? But he never said any such thing at any time.
So what was Jesus talking about to his disciples? What was it that was fulfilled and written about Christ in the Law, Prophets and the Psalms? That Jesus was going to fulfill and then abolish the Sabbath? Hardly.
Do any of the four Gospels say such a thing? No. This is why NCT is absurd. It is based on false views of the Word as well as both history and theology.
Luke 24 is speaking about the cross, not the Sabbath. The disciples had not yet understood that Jesus was to be killed on the cross. (Even though he told them over and over.) They thought he was the Messiah, but their view of the Son of God had nothing to do with the cross.
Luke 9:20 And He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Peter answered and said, “The Christ of God.”
Luke 9:21 But He warned them and instructed them not to tell this to anyone,
Luke 9:22 saying, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised up on the third day.”
Luke 9:23 And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.
Luke 24 is about the CROSS. NOT this imbecilic theory that claims Jesus fulfilled and then abolished the Sabbath. The Bible does not, not, not, teach NCT.
Luke 9:44 “Let these words sink into your ears; for the Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.”
Luke 9:45 But they did not understand this statement, and it was concealed from them so that they would not perceive it; and they were afraid to ask Him about this statement.
Luke 24 is connected to this earlier account in Luke 9, which is fascinating, surreal, and even comical.
Picture the scene: At this point in the Gospel Story, Jesus had become like a religious rock star. He was an overnight sensation, with his stunning healings and new views about God and the law, especially the Sabbath, drawing big crowds.
Watch as he amazed the crowd with a dramatic exorcism; leaving everyone stunned at Jesus power and poise. Perhaps he is the one to free the Jews from Roman rule? Even his disciples were in awe as Jesus, who had become an overnight sensation and celebrity.
But then note this point: When the crowd was praising God and Jesus was looked upon as a hero, he turns to his disciples and says a very strange thing that does not fit the adulation of the moment. But it goes over their heads, not to be understood until after the cross. Read this account and understand.
Luke 9:37 On the next day, when they came down from the mountain, a large crowd met Him.
Luke 9:38 And a man from the crowd shouted, saying, “Teacher, I beg You to look at my son, for he is my only boy,
Luke 9:39 and a spirit seizes him, and he suddenly screams, and it throws him into a convulsion with foaming at the mouth; and only with difficulty does it leave him, mauling him as it leaves.
Luke 9:40 “I begged Your disciples to cast it out, and they could not.”
Luke 9:41 And Jesus answered and said, “You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you and put up with you? Bring your son here.”
Luke 9:42 While he was still approaching, the demon slammed him to the ground and threw him into a convulsion. But Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the boy and gave him back to his father.
Luke 9:43 And they were all amazed at the greatness of God. But while everyone was marveling at all that He was doing, He said to His disciples,…
“Oh, by the way, I am going to die as a criminal on a cross.”
Luke 9:44 “Let these words sink into your ears; for the Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.”
Luke 9:45 But they did not understand this statement, and it was concealed from them so that they would not perceive it; and they were afraid to ask Him about this statement.
Luke 9:46 An argument started among them as to which of them might be the greatest.
There are no prophecies that show Christ was to fulfill the Sabbath. Moses never said any such thing. So who authorized anyone to invent NCT and make up fictitious doctrines and pretend that Jesus teaches their false doctrine when he does no such thing?
Luke 24 is dealing with the CROSS, not the Sabbath.
Luke 24:25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
Luke 24:26 “Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?”
Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
This passage contains no hint that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath; much less that he abolished it. Those who have embraced NCT have lost their minds as well as their souls. This theory is not in the Bible.
Bob2 said: then you need to accept that and not try to be part tSDA and part Evangelical Christian.
Tom said: I do not need to “accept” phantom doctrines. Why you want to embrace such fiction is anyone’s guess, but you have had good training in that department from the SDA’s.
They are the ones that taught you how to manipulate the scriptures to say whatever you want. But when confronted with the Gospel facts, these useless doctrines crumble under the weight of the evidence. The record on this site speaks for itself. NCT has been reduced to powder, ground into dust like the Golden Calf it represents. Drink up in remembrance of false doctrine and lawlessness.
Ex. 32:20 He took the calf which they had made and burned it with fire, and ground it to powder, and scattered it over the surface of the water and made the sons of Israel drink it.
Bob2 said: I know your position and no one else has it.
Tom said: Do you really understand the Gospel Sabbath? I doubt it. You have been trying for years, but I see no evidence that you have learned anything. You remain committed to the fiction of NCT.
As for how many understand this cutting edge doctrine about the Sabbath? We have already established that this is an irrelevant point and the wrong question.
Moreover, you have already admitted that Dr. Ford and Tom Norris have the same view of the Gospel Sabbath. So why are you pretending otherwise?
While you may think the Reformed Sabbath is new doctrine, it is one that goes back to the 1st century. The author is Christ.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are the ones that recorded this doctrine for the church in their Gospels.
So while it may seem new, it is very old. But I understand your point. Where did this come from? And why was it not understood before? It should have been.
The SDA’s had this doctrine in their sights a few times. But they could never pull the Gospel trigger. Nor do they care about hunting truth anymore. But truth is truth regardless who cares. At some point, it always finds a way to make itself known.
Understand this: it is normal to be shocked, surprised, and amazed at the Gospel Sabbath. This is how all Israel reacted to this NC Sabbath teaching of Christ.
It is normal to ask, ”How many leaders believe this New Sabbath doctrine?”
And sadly, it is also very normal for many to become angry and refute this doctrine. Which is why they sent Jesus to the cross. It was over his Gospel Sabbath.
Bob2 said: Maybe you and that Shepard's Rod guy outside our church at home do have something in common, YOUR OWN OPINION.
Tom said: Neither the Gospel, nor the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath has anything to do with my opinion. That is not the method to determine correct doctrine. The written Words of Jesus trump our opinion at every turn.
Bob2 said: Show me how you got the position you do, when no one else calls the Sabbath the Reformed or Gospel Sabbath.
Tom said: The Reformed Sabbath can be found in all four Gospels. Go and read these passages for yourself and learn from Jesus. It is his opinion, teaching, and wisdom that count.
The Reformed Sabbath is a rock solid doctrine, which is why none can disprove it. It is based on the written teaching of Christ.
Bob2 said: Jesus acted while on earth to satisfy the OC He was born under.
Tom said: Your opinion is wrong. Jesus came to earth to do the will of his Father. His mission was to abolish the OC and introduce the NC.
John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
John 15:15 “No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
Bob2 said: That doesn't mean we should keep all the Jewish Festivals or bring animal sacrifices to the church.
Tom said: If Jesus teaches that we are to follow the Jewish Festivals, then we must do so. But he does no such thing. However, if Jesus teaches a REFORMED, 7th day, active Sabbath, then all must follow the Good Sheppard.
Bob posted: Note these articles on this topic:
http://www.biblegems.com/BRUCECHRISTASOURSABBATH.HTM
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/re … abbath.htm
Tom said: I read that first article. It is garbage and double talk. Let me prove the point:
Christ Our Sabbath says:
“To properly understand the Sabbath, there are 3 divisions in God's progressive revelation to be examined: creation, The Old Testament law as promises to Israel and as a spiritual symbolism, and the teachings of Jesus Christ, which are further expounded on in the other books of the New Testament. The primary passage that deals with this topic is Hebrews 3:7-4:16. Simply said, Christ is our Sabbath.”
Tom said: Who said there are 3 divisions of “progressive revelation”? Here is a good example of how people make things up in order to try and manipulate the evidence.
There are only two Covenants, not three. So the Sabbath must be views from these 2 perspectives.
Moreover, did you see how the author glossed over the Gospels in order to embrace Hebrews and then declare Jesus is our Sabbath? This is absurd.
Since when does the unknown author of Hebrews have more authority and insight about the doctrine of the Sabbath than Jesus, the head of the church and self proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath in the Gospels?
It is clear that the NCT crowd only gives lip service to Jesus and the Gospels. In reality, they ignore, marginalize, and repudiate his NC Sabbath in an obvious attempt to defend their false doctrine.
Let’s see what else they say?
Christ Our Sabbath says: In other words, the Sabbath is not some religious day where there is a burden of keeping laws and restraining yourself from certain activities of life. But rather, it is just as it was for God on the seventh day. It is a day to rest. Count your blessing one by one; a day to enjoy the blessing of God found through forgiveness in His Son, Jesus Christ. Which, of course, is what every day of the week is meant to be for the child of God.
Tom said: While there is no “burden of keeping laws and restraining yourself…” on the NC Sabbath, the author then talks about resting from work like God in the Creation Story.
But this makes no sense. Jesus NC Sabbath is not about rest, but about doing works. So this author has no idea what they are talking about. No one who embraces NCT can defend their nonsense.
In conclusion, it is time for all SDA’s to come to grips with the fact that they have the wrong view of the NC Sabbath. They have the correct DAY, but not the correct doctrine.
NCT is no solution.
Only the Active, Reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ is the correct Sabbath for the church. All others are fiction.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for the 7th day Gospel Sabbath
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Tom said:
Since when does the unknown author of Hebrews have more authority and insight about the doctrine of the Sabbath than Jesus, the head of the church and self proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath in the Gospels?
This is what my experience was in our SDA schools. Very little emphasis on the NT and Paul in particular. They hang on to the OT/OC because the NT/NC is so strange to them. Paul was given 3 years in Arabia with visions from Jesus. Unless you don't believe Paul was inspired with what he said. There is no command by Jesus to continue the Sabbath or any Old Covenant Laws once they were fulfilled by him. Not just the Sabbath but all of it. The ultimate reward to man is eternal rest which Christ brought and is, Salvation and rest for our souls. You are trying to hang on to favorite parts you like and seem to think your "logical" take on Jesus opening the minds of the disciples at His ascension is your version. Doubt it!!!
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Bob, your defense of NCT is hopeless. Your inability to make a coherent response to the mountain of evidence is obvious. Why not step back and rethink your position?
NCT is total and complete nonsense. Repent and stop fighting against the Gospel!
Bob2 said: This is what my experience was in our SDA schools. Very little emphasis on the NT and Paul in particular. They hang on to the OT/OC because the NT/NC is so strange to them.
Tom said: Agreed. The Gospel is unknown to the SDA’s, as well as to all other Laodiceans. But this point will not make NCT true. It is still false and worthless garbage. Sorry.
Had it not been for Dr. Ford, the SDA's would still have no clue how to understand salvation or eschatology. At least now they should al know they have many errors and doctrinal problems that must be addressed.
Bob2 said: Paul was given 3 years in Arabia with visions from Jesus. Unless you don't believe Paul was inspired with what he said.
Tom said: Agreed. But this does nothing to establish or defend NCT. Paul does not teach NCT any more than does Jesus or anyone else in the Bible. Sorry.
Bob2 said: There is no command by Jesus to continue the Sabbath or any Old Covenant Laws once they were fulfilled by him. Not just the Sabbath but all of it.
Tom said: Jesus only taught the NC Sabbath over and over and over. He never once said he fulfilled it, or that it was going to be abolished. He also called all that followed him to embrace his Sabbath views.
Those who fail to understand Jesus reformed Sabbath teaching, will not understand the Gospel correctly. This is what happened to the Jews. This is what has happened to the Gentiles. This is what has happened to the SDA's and all others today.
At the end of time, the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath make a great comeback. This is shown in Rev 18. The SDA's were on the right track...
Bob2 said: The ultimate reward to man is eternal rest which Christ brought and is, Salvation and rest for our souls.
Tom said: The ultimate reward is not yet here. It will arrive at the 2nd Coming. So forget this talk about “rest” before the proper time. In fact, the word rest is seldom used in the NC. There are less then 10 uses of this word in all four Gospels, and only half of them mean “rest” in the context of being passive.
The word “rest” in the NT is almost a rare word, not used in the Gospel of John, Colossians, 2Thess, James, 1st John, and Jude. And only once in Mark, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, 1st Thess, 1 Timothy, Philemon, 1 & 2nd Peter.
Bob2 said: You are trying to hang on to favorite parts you like and seem to think your "logical" take on Jesus opening the minds of the disciples at His ascension is your version. Doubt it!!!
Tom said: Ha! If the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels are not the favorite part of the Bible for every Christian, then something is very wrong. Jesus is the heart of the Gospel. He must be the “favorite” of all in the church. He has the words of Eternal Life.
Those who ignore, marginalize, and manipulate the teachings of Christ are going to hell. All this double talk from NCT to avoid the Gospels and to pretend the Sabbath has been removed by Jesus and/or Paul is nonsense.
As for your misunderstanding of Luke, the record is clear that Jesus was speaking about the cross, not fulfilling or abolishing the Sabbath. NCT is not being honest with the Word or history. Their interpretations are false and dishonest.
In conclusion, why not embrace the Sabbath teachings of Christ? They are not hard at all. In fact, Jesus teaches the most free and easy Sabbath. Why fight him? For what purpose? Eternal suicide?
It is time for all Laodiceans, especially those from the SDA Community, to repent; and fully embrace the Gospel, which includes the active, NC, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.
Let’s go SDA’s….
Tom Norris for the 7th day Gospel Sabbath
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Tom, I'm tired of your immature outbreaks. Let's just say we have to agree to disagree. Until you put forth other scholars that believe your points and preach it, you may beable to fool ALLEXPERTS.ocm, but I have shown enough evidence and scholars of my position. You are just not acting in a Christ like manner. I think we have discussed as much as we can with no concensus or agreemnet. Everyone has an opinion and you have a right to yours. God bless as you take your view down the road.
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Bob2 said: Tom, I'm tired of your immature outbreaks. Let's just say we have to agree to disagree.
Tom said: Ha! Let’s just say that you don’t understand the Gospel correctly.
Let’s also say that NCT is utter fiction and farce. It is a joke, and so too any that embrace this garbage.
Bob2 said: Until you put forth other scholars that believe your points and preach it, you may be able to fool ALLEXPERTS.com, but I have shown enough evidence and scholars of my position.
Tom said: Ha! Your evidence is worthless. It is nothing more than a bunch of anti-Sabbatarian double-talk and false assumptions.
There are no serious theologians that support NCT. The ones that do are just a bunch of hacks trying to stay relevant and have something to say. Their efforts are a waste of time. NCT is garbage. It is not serious or honest theology. It is for the lazy and the trite. For those that like fiction and bumper sticker theology.
I have put forth very credible and famous scholars to support the 7th day, Reformed Sabbath of Christ.
They are: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
These are my primary “scholars” that support the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath. And so too Paul and the rest of the NT writers.
This is enough to establish doctrine. No one needs any more scholars or experts from the 1970’s to help out the apostles. Much less to make things up and mislead people down a wrong path.
You have put forth amateurs and blind people, as well as some self-serving clerics who claim that Jesus did not teach any doctrine of the Sabbath for the church. But anyone reading the Gospels will know they are not being honest with the NT.
So who cares what these confused people say? Not me. No one should care what anyone says if the NT cannot support it.
NCT is so bad that not one denomination has ever embraced its senseless and unfounded views about the Sabbath. But over time, even this could change. But even so, it would never make NCT true.
Bob2 said: You are just not acting in a Christ like manner.
Tom said: This statement proves that you do not understand the teachings about Christ n the NT. You should study my sources.
Bob2 said: I think we have discussed as much as we can with no consensus or agreement. Everyone has an opinion and you have a right to yours. God bless as you take your view down the road.
Tom said: Gospel Truth is not about consensus or agreement; it is about following the teachings of Christ.
Nor does our opinion in any way change the Gospel Story or the law of Christ. It is what it is.
Those that think they can view the Bible any way they fancy will be in for a big shock on the Judgment Day. This will be especially true for those who embrace the lawless view of NCT, claiming that Jesus failed to give any Sabbath instruction to the NC Church.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
NCT is the wrong path. It is full of false prophets, wolves, and hypocrites, all heading to a certain doom.
Let all beware!
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris, for the active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath
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God Bless you Tom.
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http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … 469#p10469
This would be better if you wish to talk about Tom's views, I.Miller.
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Bob_2 said: I still don't see where Des Ford referred to a Reformed Sabbath as Tom Norris teaches it.
Elaine also said: I find absolutely no reference in the NT to a "New Covenant Sabbath."
Tom said: Open your eyes and understand that every time you read the 4 (New Covenant) Gospels, and see Jesus promoting, defending, and following his working, active, 7th day Sabbath, you are seeing a “reference” to the NC, Gospel Sabbath.
Miller said: That was very cool. It's there right there under my nose all these years.
LOL Tom.
Thanks.
"Reformed Sabbath" I get it.
Once again, thank you.
Tom said: You are very welcome!
Matt. 13:16 “…blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.
Tom Norris for the genuine Gospel Sabbath
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Tom, when did the New Covenant begin????
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Tom and I.Miller, maybe this will help:
Heb 10:8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
He lived under the OC until His death, and gave no Reformed Sabbath other than clarifying how he originally wanted it kept as society changed, not unlike the synagogue coming into the time of Christ. They were no longer desert dwellers receiving manna.
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Bob2 asked: Tom, when did the New Covenant begin????
Tom said: I think you might be surprised at the answer.
The NC began long ago-- in the mind of God. Long before the world was created. Thus the Gospel is billions of years old, even though it was only revealed in the 1st century.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Eph. 3:8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,
Eph. 3:9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;
Eph. 3:10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.
Eph. 3:11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,
The Gospel is as ancient and eternal as God himself, even as Jesus became the living revelation of the Gospel for all to see.
Heb. 10:5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
“SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;
Heb. 10:6 IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.
Heb. 10:7 “THEN I SAID, ‘BEHOLD, I HAVE COME
(IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME)
TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.’”
Thus when Jesus was born, the NC era started. When his ministry started, so too did the preaching of the NC Gospel.
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Mark 1:14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
At the Cross, the Gospel was ratified, even as the teachings of Jesus would change the course of history and religion forever.
The Gospel is a very ancient and very misunderstood doctrine of the NT. When it is understood correctly, so too will the doctrine of the Sabbath.
Bob2 said: He lived under the OC until His death,
Tom said: While Jesus was born under the Old Covenant, he was NC in nature, plan, and purpose. He came to abolish the OC and set up the NC.
Bob2 said: Jesus gave no Reformed Sabbath other than clarifying how he originally wanted it kept as society changed, not unlike the synagogue coming into the time of Christ. They were no longer desert dwellers receiving manna.
Tom said: The Gospel contains the record of what Jesus taught about the Sabbath. Those who claim to follow Christ must also embrace his NC views of the Sabbath, not deny them and pretend they don’t exist.
It is time for those that claim to follow Jesus, to do so. Stop the pretending. Stop the false doctrine. Let all go directly to the Word to understand the Gospel, including the Sabbath.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, sort of an oblique answer. Until certain actions happened you can't say the 2nd Covenant happened :
Heb 10:8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
So until the sacrifice of His body, the 2nd Covenant could not happen. He spoke of His Kingdom in the future tense, right? It could not start until His death, resurrection and ascension. The disciples were told to wait in Jerusalem until the Spirit was poured out. Pentecost is said to be the beginning of the 2nd Covenant by some.
Luke 24: 45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
So the New Covenant or Kingdom of God would start when the Spirit was poured out on the disciples, Pentecost, right????
The Gospel that the Jews rejected except for a remnant, is that Jesus is God, and can forgive sins. The Sabbath is no where commanded in the New Covenant. During His life Christ chided the leaders for their made up rules for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was part of what was fulfilled when he died.
See also http://thegracetabernacle.org/studies/gtsn_sabbath.html , the reasoning and logic of the presentation, put it to the words of the 2nd Covenant and test it.
Last edited by bob_2 (09-24-11 12:13 am)
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Bob2 said: Tom, sort of an oblique answer.
Tom said: Ha! The answer was very clear. You just don’t like it. So you will try and pretend it is not true, all so you can defend false doctrine. Pitiful.
Bob2 said: Until certain actions happened you can't say the 2nd Covenant happened.
Tom said: Those that try to re-write the Gospel Story, forcing it to fit their confused ideas, will never find truth.
Jesus lived, preached, and taught the NC during his ministry on earth. The Gospels make this fact clear. Jesus was an apostle for the Gospel of God. His teachings are NC in nature and doctrine, not OC as you claim.
Heb. 3:1 Therefore, aholy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;
Bob2 said: So until the sacrifice of His body, the 2nd Covenant could not happen.
Tom said: Ha! Who told you this myth? The NC was an active theological paradigm long before the cross. Just because it was not ratified until the cross, it does not follow that it did not exist.
Jesus preached the NC and forgave sin before the cross, thus proving the Gospel did exist before that point. The NC does not “start” at the cross, rather it was a plan from the mind of God, one which was unfolding even in the OC, which was designed to launch the NC.
You need to stop imposing your views on the Gospel Story.
Bob2 said: He spoke of His Kingdom in the future tense, right?
Tom said: We also speak of a “future Kingdom,” does that mean the NC has not yet started? Hardly.
Jesus preached a present salvation from an active and salvific Gospel. This is why people were healed and raised from the dead. This was a sign that the Gospel was alive, true, and active, even able to forgive sin and raise people from the dead.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
John 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Luke 5:21 The scribes and the Pharisees abegan to reason, saying, “bWho is this man who speaks blasphemies? cWho can forgive sins, but God alone?”
Luke 5:22 But Jesus, 1aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts?
Luke 5:23 “Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins have been forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’?
Luke 5:24 “But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,” — He said to the aparalytic — “I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home.”
Bob2 said: It could not start until His death, resurrection and ascension.
Tom said: Ha! You are wasting your time trying to defend NCT. It is not worth defending. Why not stop trying to change the Gospel Story and just read it honestly and without manipulation?
Answer: Because then you would have to repent of NCT and embrace the dreaded Gospel Sabbath of Christ, which you hate. So you would rather manipulate the Word to support your false views. Pitiful.
Bob2 said: The disciples were told to wait in Jerusalem until the Spirit was poured out. Pentecost is said to be the beginning of the 2nd Covenant by some.
Tom said: The Gospel is an ancient plan that has been active on planet earth from the beginning of creation. Even the OC is part of the Gospel Plan. It was not an accident, but part of the Gospel Story.
While the cross is one of the featured, critical points of the Gospel, it is neither the beginning nor the end of this eternal, theological paradigm.
Bob2 said: So the New Covenant or Kingdom of God would start when the Spirit was poured out on the disciples, Pentecost, right????
Tom said: Do not confuse the starting of the organized church, with the starting of the NC. These are different points. The Church is the result, the by-product, of the ratified NC. It is a means to defend and promote the Gospel, even as it is the new gateway into the Kingdom of God.
Bob2 said: The Gospel that the Jews rejected except for a remnant, is that Jesus is God, and can forgive sins.
Tom said: The Jews rejected the Gospel teachings of Christ in all its many forms. They did not believe that Jesus was sent from God to reform the OC into the NC, much less to change the Priesthood and the Temple, or forgive sin, or reform the Sabbath.
Bob2 said: The Sabbath is no where commanded in the New Covenant. During His life Christ chided the leaders for their made up rules for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was part of what was fulfilled when he died.
Tom said: A large part of Jesus Gospel teaching was about the NC Sabbath. Those that misunderstand or deny his active and reformed 7th day Sabbath will also misunderstand the Gospel. You are a good example.
At the end of time, those who are honest about following Christ, will be given the Spirit so that they can understand the Word. Thus, they will repent of their many false doctrines, including their confused and wrong views of the Sabbath.
Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.
It is time for the Advent Community to wake out of their confusion and repent.
The SDA’s have a false view of the Sabbath and the Judgment, and the Gospel, and thus they need to make some serious corrections so that they can go forward to fulfill their mission to develop and proclaim the final Advent Message, which is located in Rev 18.
Let the reformed, 7th day Sabbath lead the way.
Luke 14:34 “Therefore, salt is good; but if even salt has become tasteless, with what will it be seasoned?
Luke 14:35 “It is useless either for the soil or for the manure pile; it is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, what about Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
As is indicated if the verses following Jesus was not only referring to the 10commandments but to the entire Torah. Your stance indicates you are in opposition to the very words of Jesus. Jesus did not teach Jews to ignore old covenant requirements and observe New Covenant requirements. You are completely off the Beam.
Even after Jesus death the new converts kept the old law. They really didn't start leaning to New Covenant practices till after the destruction of Jerusalem. They were a thorn in Paul's side. He had to write and rewrite New Covenant requirements in order for them to finally see the light of the New Covenant.
I believe you will go to any extent to try to get followers to your theory. I see it isn't working because people know more than you think they do. Mostly we understand that there is no Sabbath requirements and the whole SDA teaching that there is such a requirement for Christians is pure bunk.
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