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Tom quoted:
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
This is why your posts are so long, Tom, they don't speak to the issue, whereas you can see the connection of the text I give without insult and liable. I can see why you are a former Pastor of the SDA Church. That passage could be used on you and Hubb much more quickly than on me. At least I can use Bible text to support NCT's position where you just hurl insults after misusing the Bible. I quote from another poster Sirje regarding you, and believe me, it was given without my urging:
I was beginning to think I was the only one that felt you have not drawn a good picture of your Reformed Sabbath, but note this comment from Sirje on your thread THE REFORMED SABBATH post #237:
You have repeatedly advocated for the NT Gospel Sabbath but nowhere have you described it.
My sentiments exactly!!!
Last edited by bob_2 (07-03-11 2:55 am)
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Bob, an advocate of NCT is puzzled why Tom Norris would post up a passage in John 9. He sees no meaning or relevance to this passage.
After referencing John 9 and 10, Bob2 said to Tom Norris: “This is why your posts are so long, Tom, they don't speak to the issue, whereas you can see the connection of the text I give without insult and liable.”
Tom said: Bob, Bob, Bob; how can you think this passage in John is irrelevant to our discussion about the Sabbath? It is a passage that deals with Jesus Reformed Sabbath.
How could you possibly think it was not on point? Here is what I said before I cited that passage:
Tom posted: Bob, you will never understand the NT if you don’t stop being so dishonest with the Bible. Your proof texting ways are leading you to false and impossible positions. You will never understand the Gospel clearly until you respect the Word and treat it honestly, through the use of the Protestant Hermeneutic.
To understand the Gospel Sabbath correctly, one must first go to the Gospels and sit at the feet of Jesus, the greatest theologian the world has ever known, and learn from him.
Those who refuse to do this, pretending that Jesus failed to teach a NC doctrine of the Sabbath, are closing their eyes to obvious and clear truth. They are blind by choice, and thus there is no forgiveness or salvation for them.
Note this passage, which is focused on Jesus Reformed Sabbath. Understand that Jesus is talking to those, like you and the SDA’s, who refuse to embrace his Gospel Sabbath.
Note also that he warns against “pluralism,” or any view other than his.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind…”
----------------------------------------
So Bob, this passage is about the reformed Sabbath of Christ. Which is why it was pushed forward into this discussion. It is right on point. The fact you don’t know this only underscores the blindness of those that support NCT and other errors.
The Gospels show how the religious leaders were outraged at the NC Sabbath of Christ, where the blind were given sight and cripples were ordered to work on the Sabbath and move furniture.
Jesus response to his critics was a clever pun about their being blind, unable to see the Gospel. It was also a warning to the religious leaders that doctrinal truth only comes through humility, and only to those who submit to Christ and his teachings.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind…”
This passage is part of the original, 1st century Sabbath debates that many today refuse to acknowledge. It is relevant because we are having a modern Sabbath debate, and dealing with the same issues of error and stubbornness.
John 9:13 They brought to the Pharisees the man who was formerly blind.
John 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.
The book of John is full of Jesus NC Sabbath debates, so don’t think this is the first mention of it. In fact, the Gospel Sabbath is introduced early in John.
John 5:8 Jesus *said to him, “Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.”
John 5:9 Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk. Now it was the Sabbath on that day.
John 5:10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”
John 5:11 But he answered them, “He who made me well was the one who said to me, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk.’”
John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
Note that Jesus is purposefully and publicly breaking the OC Sabbath when he heals. He did not have to command the cured man to pick up his bed and move it on the Sabbath. He could have said: “Leave your bed and walk. Come back after the Sabbath and remove it.” Thus lessening the perceived sin against the Sabbath. But he does no such thing.
He could have also cured the blind man without first making a medicinal potent and applying it to his eyes. But he wanted to make the point to all that he was reforming the Sabbath, and that his Gospel was above the law.
Those today, like the NCT crowd, that repudiate the Reformed 7th day Sabbath, are “blind” to the Gospel. They can’t see it, or the NC Sabbath, which is part of the Gospel. Thus they are acting just like the Pharisees in the Gospels. Which is why this passage was cited.
The NCT claim that Christ did not teach a Reformed, 7th day, NC Sabbath for the church is a delusion that is easily shattered by the simple reading of the Gospels. Only a blind person could miss the Gospel Sabbath in the NT. Which is why this passage was quoted…
Do you now understand? Or will you continue to choose blindness?
Bob2 said: I can see why you are a former Pastor of the SDA Church.
Tom said: You are not “seeing” much of anything clearly. I have never been an SDA pastor. So you need to get your facts straight.
Bob2 said: That passage could be used on you and Hubb much more quickly than on me.
Tom said: The NT condemns both NCT and the SDA doctrine of the OC Sabbath. So it condemns you both.
However, those that embrace the 7th day “Gospel Sabbath” are innocent and correct. They see things clearly, even as they hear the voice of the Good Shepherd and follow him. Legions today are following a false Christ, and so too all that embrace the blindness of NCT or the OC Sabbath on either Sunday or the 7th day.
Bob2 said: At least I can use Bible text to support NCT's position where you just hurl insults after misusing the Bible.
Tom said: Ha! The texts you use to support NCT are so out of context as to be comical, and so too are the many more that you ignore. It is ludicrous to claim that Jesus failed to teach a NC Sabbath for the church. How can anyone take such a position when the Gospels are full of Jesus Reformed Sabbath teaching?
NCT is delusional, blind, and dishonest. It is fiction pretending to be true. Only a spiritually blind person would embrace this nonsense. Which is why I quoted John 9:39; “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind…”
Those who claim NCT is the answer, are blind as Jewish bats. And so to those SDA’s who have embraced the OC, Sabbath of Moses and the Law.
Bob2 said: I was beginning to think I was the only one that felt you have not drawn a good picture of your Reformed Sabbath, but note this comment from Sirje on your thread:
See: THE REFORMED SABBATH post #237:
You have repeatedly advocated for the NT Gospel Sabbath but nowhere have you described it.
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228
Tom said: I readily admit that the Gospel, as well as the Reformed Sabbath that it includes, is not easy to understand. In fact, it was very difficult for the Jews to grasp, and they failed to understand or embrace it.
Moreover, it was so hard to understand that Jesus claimed it was a “hidden doctrine” that had to be revealed to his followers.
Matt. 13:44 “The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
Those who claim to follow Jesus, must do so, including embracing his Reformed, Gospel Sabbath, which is no controlled or restricted by Law, as they SDA’s teach. Listen to Jesus on this point:
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
Bob2 said: I was beginning to think I was the only one that felt you have not drawn a good picture of your Reformed Sabbath, but note this comment from Sirje on your thread;
THE REFORMED SABBATH post #237:by Sirje
Tom said: Sirje is an old friend from JR’s ATomorrow Forum. She does not support TA, and I doubt she would support NCT, but I am not certain. Regardless, she has every right to ask for more details and explanation about this new Sabbath doctrine under discussion. Good for her to try and understand it! This is why we are having such a public discussion.
However, you are taking her post out of context, making it appear as if the Reformed, 7th Day Sabbath is so confounding and illogical that it must be wrong. What you failed to reveal was the fact that this post was the very first response to my article about the Reformed Sabbath, which started this thread a number of years ago.
My article introducing the Reformed Sabbath was post #1.
See; The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … id=228&p=1
Sirje’s post, that you quoted, was #2. It was not #237 as you claimed.
In fact, that post is from someone over at All Experts that is trying to understand the new Gospel Sabbath under discussion.
Tom,
Thank you for taking the time to do this for people.
I have a single question about the Sabbath. It is actually more of a clarifying question after reading your other answers.
I am a former SDA member myself. I want to ask you to answer a single question, if you would please.
Are you saying that the Sabbath day of Saturday is correct, but the manner in which SDA's preach of what to do and how others are condemned is false?
Or are you saying that the Sabbath day as Saturday is wrong as well?
Mike
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -Day-3.htm
After Mike received his answer, he made this reply, which was posted on this site on 1-24-11; post # 237
Thank you again, Tom.
I have been reading more of your posts and I must say that your analyses and knowledge are incredible and are very helpful to me as I go through scripture looking for answers.
Mike
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … d=228&p=10
As for Sirje; Her question was answered by Tom Norris in post # 43 on 1-25-09. So don’t pretend that people are so confounded by the Gospel Sabbath that they cannot understand it. This is not true. Many that have been blind to the Gospel Sabbath are now receiving their sight.
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … id=228&p=2
Today this 2 year Sabbath thread has grown to 10 pages, with 248 posts and almost 5,000 page views. Those like Sirje, that responded right away to this new doctrine have had their questions answered. And if not, they are free to come back online, read the discussion, and ask for more explanation.
After so much discussion online about the Gospel Sabbath, it is remarkable for anyone that has been participating to say they can’t understand it. It is even more stunning that people have been so foolish as to embrace NCT, which is predicated upon this outrageous idea that Jesus only taught 90% of the Moral Law, omitting the Sabbath completely.
In order to accept NCT, a person would have to be blind to the teaching of Jesus, purposefully closing their eyes to the dramatic and controversial Sabbath that he features in all four Gospels. This pretending to be blind is exactly what the NCT crowd has done, and so too the SDA’s and the Sunday keepers. But Jesus has a warning for all that play such games:
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
It is time for all that claim to follow Jesus teachings, to stop pretending and do so.
There is only one Gospel and one Gospel Sabbath. Only a few will be able to understand correctly.
Matt. 13:15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’
Today, it is time to take the Gospel seriously, and to pay attention to the words of Christ as never before. Those that refuse to repent of their many false doctrines, and refuse to handle the Word honestly, will remain blind and confused.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, Jesus in those texts you quote, under the OC until He died, showed how the Sabbath was meant to be kept by those under the OC. Your texts give no Reformed Sabbath, and that term is not found. Notice the confusion it caused Marianne thinking we were talking about something that exists. Until you can show texts that call it that, then you are in danger of preaching another gospel, things added to the pure Gospel.
Why are my texts proof texts, while you talking of the Judgement are not violating Col 2:16, 17. You have set yourself up as judge and jury by your quotes. I stiill side with Sirje. You have to set a list of do's and don't for your Reformed Sabbath. If this was so the Apostles would be listing and talking about them, They do not. You still have not shown anything about a Reformed Sabbath, but words that were used to condemn those that did not beliieve His words, having nothing to do with Sabbathkeeping. He pointed out that it is legal to take an oxe out of a ditch on the OC Sabbath. He was under the OC period so He had to talk about the way the OC Sabbath/Law was to be kept. Was any thing He said, other than the way the Jews had misinterpeted it, illegal for Jews to do on Sabbath???? They might have been persecuted by their Leaders if they did those things, but as shown, not by Jesus.
You have yet to clearly state how you imagine your Reformed Sabbath would look under the New Covenant. You have only confused some that you are part of the Seventh day Adventist Reformed Church?
Last edited by bob_2 (07-03-11 2:48 am)
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Tom, do a google search on "Reformed Theology" or "Reformed Sabbath.
1. Reformed Theology is already taken as a topic by the Presbyterians. Check out their terminology in the Westminister Confession. You confuse people when you refer to a Reformed Sabbath. The general spiritual googler will think you are Calvinist and a proponent of Reformed Theology.
2. Reformed Sabbath, nowhere does Christ command the Sabbath to be Reformed in the New Covenant. You, Tom Norris have made this up out of "whole cloth". This is your made up baby. Show me Theological Scholars that can see and believe what you tout. I have done so on NCT.
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Maryanne said: “I was raised in the cult called the Seventh-day Adventist Church.”
Tom Norris said: Welcome Maryanne, to this open and independent forum, which repudiates traditional, cultic Adventism and promotes genuine Adventist Reform.
Most all on this site have been part of cultic Adventism, so you are not alone. I am sure you have some tales to tell. All former SDA’s have a personal story of their struggles with Adventism. The Web is full of such former SDA’s …
See:
Leaving The Garden: On Being A Former Adventist
By Jim Moyers
http://home.earthlink.net/~jcmmsm/story/index.html
Former Adventist Fellowship
http://www.formeradventist.com/
Ex-SDA Outreach
http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Testimo … fault.aspx
SDA Pastor Joins Roman Catholic Church
http://www.hawaiicatholicherald.com/Hom … fault.aspx
http://www.network54.com/Forum/204836/t … w+Catholic.
Why I Left the SDA Church
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/ex-sda-5194.html
SDA Evangelist Joins Islam
http://www.imanway.com/en/showthread.php?t=1487&page=1
Adventist Reform
While it has become clear to many that SDA theology is full of error and myth, including the fact that they have the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath, it does not mean there is no truth within the Three Angels Message. There is, which is why those that have gone outside the Adventist Movement to find the answers have not found them.
Consequently, the former SDA’s Pastors, like Richard Fredericks, who repudiated SDA theology and adopted NCT, are still wrong about the Sabbath and many other things. They only exchanged their SDA errors about OC Sabbath keeping for the antinomian error that there is no Sabbath, (either the 1st or 7th day) for the church.
Then of course, they go to church every Sunday, showing that they cannot even follow their own theology. So all is confusion and error in the Laodicean church today. The Gospel Story misunderstood by most all, and the SDA’s are as guilty as all others.
However, you have come to the right place if you want answers about how to repair and reform the self-destructing Advent Movement. It is an easy thing to point out error and false doctrine, but much harder to chart a correct Gospel path of present truth in the 21st century. Adventist Reform is such a path.
Adventist Reform
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=234
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=11
Tom Norris
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm
http://www.adventistreform.com/
Tom Norris Interview
http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com … orris.html
Here you will find real answers to the many problems and errors of Adventism, including a 12- point blueprint about how to transform Old Covenant, cultic Adventism into a New Covenant Movement that promotes correct Gospel doctrine, as well as cutting edge eschatology.
While many on this site were also “raised in the SDA cult,” most have managed to outgrow and escape Traditional Adventism. But even so, there are still some who try to defend the IJ, tithe, and the OC Sabbath, even as there are those that have over-reacted and now declare there is no Sabbath doctrine in the NT.
So there is great confusion within the SDA Community as they struggle to understand why they are self-destructing, and why things make so little sense anymore. But Adventist Reform has the answers, even as it has illuminated a Gospel path for the Advent Movement to follow.
Site History
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=224
SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836
Fraud of Traditional Adventism
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=235
Maryanne asked: Recently things split and now there is a reformed Seventh-day Adventist church. Is this true?
Tom said: You are probably thinking about Glacier View in 1980; This sham theological trial against Dr. Ford marks the beginning of a long and protracted schism that has been destroying the SDA church.
Dr. Ford and Glacier View
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … r-View.htm
Unfortunately, many of those that left, correctly repudiating the IJ and a legalistic, OC Sabbath, became ensnared in what is called NCT.
NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … christ.htm
NCT
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=12
Many left false doctrine, only to embrace more false doctrine. How stupid is that? This is why there has been no progress or meaningful reform within the SDA community all these years since 1980. This is one of many reasons why Adventist Reform is needed.
Bob2 said: Tom Norris has confused some with his Reformed Sabbath. It is not part of the Seventh-day Adventist Reformed Movement (see http://www.sdarm.org/index.php)
Tom said: Adventist Reform is not to be confused the SDA Reform Movement, which is a hyper legalistic spin off from the SDA church in the early to mid 20th century.
Information on the Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement
http://biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.or … vement.htm
SDA REFORM MOVEMENT
http://www.temcat.com/11A-WolvesinFleec … VEMENT.pdf
Rather, AR is a post Glacier View phenomenon. It is the continuation of Dr. Ford’s Reformed Gospel theology that was rejected by the leaders in 1980. In fact, Dr. Ford is the father of Adventist Reform.
Dr. Ford
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=240
Dr. Ford Interviewed by Tom Norris
http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … /intro.cfm
AR is a corrected path that resolves the many errors and problems of SDA theology. It features the eschatology of the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18, as well as a newly discovered doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.
4th Angels Message
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=769
The Reformed, 7th day Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228
The SDARM is an outdated spin off from the 20th century SDA’s. This group has made no Gospel advances, and in fact, they embrace all the errors of the SDA’s, such as the IJ, Tithe, and a false hermeneutic that is based on Ellen White, as well as a fictionalized view of 1888 and church history, and on and on.
THE SDA REFORM MOVEMENT ORIGIN AND EARLY EXPERIENCES
http://www.sdarm.org/pub_data/gws/gws_13.html
No one should confuse these two opposite views of Gospel doctrine. Adventist Reform, as promoted by Dr. Ford and Tom Norris repudiates the IJ, Tithe, and even the OC Sabbath of the SDA’s, as well as many other errors, like abstinence and the fear of Sunday laws. So it should be very hard to confuse these polar opposite views.
See:
Adventist Reform
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=234
The SDA Scandal of Abstinence
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=238
Bob2 said: As you read about that group they became active and official after World War II. It was the bearing of arms that seemed to cause the split, but that was not recent.
Tom said: Correct. This group is so legalistic that they thought it sinful to fight war on the Sabbath. This is the reason they separated from the SDA’s who did not take this view during WWI or II.
The Sabbath & Military Service
http://www.giveshare.org/BibleStudy/269 … itary.html
Bob2 said: Tom Norris, believer in the 10 Commandments and that the Sabbath are still in force, but when Christ died, he started a New Covenant at His death. As it says in Hebrews 8:13, the Old Covenant was made obsolete, that had the 10 Commandment as it's main symbol.
Tom Norris said: Many are confused about the Gospel Story, including the NCT crowd who claim that Jesus is an OC figure, and that he never taught a doctrine of the Sabbath for the church.
While they believe that Christ taught most all of the 10 Commandments, (9 out of 10), they also claim he abolished the 4th Commandment and now there is no Sabbath for the church, either on Sunday or the 7th day. This is their featured position and the reason why they exist. They are hardcore anti-Sabbatarians.
NCT
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=12
Of course this group is so confused that they meet every Sunday, like most others. Yet this is the very point that they claim is wrong! Such hypocrisy exposes their theology as worthless and impractical, and so too their hermeneutics. NCT is garbage. Beware.
Bob2 said: The New Covenant is Christocentric and believes the Decalogue and the other Jewish Laws numbering over 600 were made obsolete.
Tom said: Here Bob2, a NCT fanatic, is double-talking. Beware. First off, both RC and P correctly teach that the Moral law is still binding for duty in the NT. NCT is taking a view of the law that has NEVER been embraced by the church at any time in its long history.
While the early church fathers separated the Ceremonial law from the Moral law, they never taught that the Decalogue was abolished, and neither did Christ.
So here is the first error of NCT. They do not understand how the law and the Gospel interrelate. Nor do they understand or acknowledge the Sabbath teachings of Jesus in the Gospels.
Furthermore, were the Moral law to be abolished, then all would be free to sin, because there is no longer anything to define, explain, or condemn it. Which if course is absurd. How can there be a judgment of the world if the law has been abolished?
Besides, NCT does not deny that 90% of the Moral Law is included in the teachings of Christ. They only object to the Sabbath commandment of the 4th Commandment. Which is very strange considering that all four Gospels clearly feature the Reformed, Active, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.
Bob2 said: The New Covenant had as it's base Jesus Christ who died for our sins, and fulfilled the Old Covenant including the 10 Commandment in His Flesh.
Tom said: The Gospel, as well as the Sabbath doctrine, is poorly understood by all Laodiceans. This popular idea that the Sabbath can be fulfilled and used up is very wrong. The Sabbath is a memorial to the Creation event. This is a past event, and thus it can never be fulfilled and terminated.
Moreover, while Jesus perfectly obeyed the OC, he is a Pioneer of the NC, even its primary spokesman. The law of Christ, which is the same as his teachings, includes a NC doctrine of the Sabbath, which of course, trumps, the OC Schoolmaster Sabbath of Moses and the SDA’s.
Bob2 said: New Covenant Theology is a way of organizing the Bible, a Theology or the way of understanding God/Jesus.
Tom said: NCT is a dishonest and lazy theory that is against the teachings of the Gospel. It is based on a number of false assumptions, including this outrageous view that Jesus failed to teach a NC doctrine of the Sabbath to the church.
In fact, because Jesus has so much to say in defense of the Sabbath, the church has always embraced a weekly Sabbath. At first it was the 7th day, and then it changed to the 1st. But regardless, there was NEVER a time when the church failed to teach a doctrine of the Sabbath, which correctly places NCT in the heretical trash heap of history, where it belongs.
The church has never embraced NCT, with its repudiation of the Sabbath, nor will this ever happen. The church not only needs a weekly day to meet, but they must also follow the teachings of Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath on this point. While they have not done so correctly in the past, they will still be given the opportunity in the future.
The real Jesus of scripture condemns NCT, and so too must all that follow him.
Bob2 said: It can serve as a template over various denominational beliefs up and until they do not accept these critical beliefs.
Tom said: How can false doctrine be a guide for the church? How can double-talk and sloppy hermeneutics solve the Sabbath debate?
NCT is worthless drivel and double-talk. It is based on myth, error, and deliberate fabrication. Let all run from this nonsense.
Bob2 said: The Seventh day Adventist Church maintains that the Sabbath is still a Worship Day, the Fourth Commandment.
Tom said: The SDA’s are correct to declare that only the 7th day is the Sabbath for the church. However, they have embraced the OC “schoolmaster” doctrine of the Sabbath, not the NC, Gospel version that Christ taught. This great error must be corrected before they can move forward.
Today, every church in Laodicea has a false view of the Gospel and the Sabbath, including the SDA’s. This is why there must be Adventist Reform, not NCT.
Bob2 said: The New Covenant Theology maintains that the Old Covenant is obsolete, and that Christ's Law is in force now, with all the Old Covenant fulfilled.
Tom said: Christ’s law also includes his teaching about the active, Gospel Sabbath. Which is very different from the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath, where work is sinful and many rules and regulations are needed for proper Sabbath observance.
Bob2 said: Again, Welcome, as I have said, " Think for your self, not by yourself". And let the Bible be your guide, give it room to speak for itself. Context, context, context.
Tom said: Christians are to think like Christ. Doctrine is not determined by logic or group think, but only by the teachings of Christ and his apostles in the NT.
Matt. 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
1Cor. 2:16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.
Beware NCT, as well as OC Adventism. Seek and you shall find the Gospel, which includes a surprising, NC view of the Sabbath.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom , you bear false witness if you claim that NCT requires you to worship a certain day to be saved. The Gospel has no day commanded. The congregational church agree when to meet is the way New Covenant church arrive at when they meet for Church.
I am attending a non-denominatal church on Saturday, preaches the gospel clearly and meet on Saturday and Sunday. Here is the website. Point out one doctrine you would disagree with:
Last edited by bob_2 (07-04-11 7:54 pm)
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Tom is getting frustrated when he begins calling another Biblical based position garbage :
Of course this group is so confused that they meet every Sunday, like most others. Yet this is the very point that they claim is wrong! Such hypocrisy exposes their theology as worthless and impractical, and so too their hermeneutics. NCT is garbage. Beware.
"Worthless, impractical and garbage???" as said by Tom above. I think you said something about slandering people, well this is liable. NCT is more based on scripture. Tom has never been able to point to a command in the NT that Jesus or one of the Apostle has given. The GCI (The renamed WCG )worship on both days depending on the congregation. There is no Reformed Gospel Sabbath.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-06-11 1:08 pm)
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Bob2 said: Tom, do a Google search on "Reformed Theology" or "Reformed Sabbath.
Tom said: Bob, do a Google search on “Gospel Sabbath” and see what comes up? If you do, you will find the 7th day Gospel Sabbath as proposed by Adventist Reform is there in the 1st page view. Here is what came up.
NCT; The Sabbath fulfilled in Christ; By Tom Norris
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … christ.htm
SDA Sabbath vs. by Tom Norris
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836
New Covenant Sabbath, by Tom Norris
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … bath-1.htm
Also if you Google Reformed Sabbath, our discussion also shows up. So for those that are seeking truth about the Gospel and the Sabbath, all they need to do is search.
Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Sabbath Question by Tom Norris
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … estion.htm
NCT; The Sabbath fulfilled in Christ.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … christ.htm
So the active, reformed, 7th day Sabbath of the Gospels is out in the public domain for all to find. It is a “new” Gospel doctrine for the church to study, understand, and embrace, just prior to the 2nd Coming.
Bob2 said: 1. Reformed Theology is already taken as a topic by the Presbyterians. Check out their terminology in the Westminister Confession. You confuse people when you refer to a Reformed Sabbath. The general spiritual googler will think you are Calvinist and a proponent of Reformed Theology.
Tom said: The church is already so confused and wrong about the Sabbath that it is far too late and disingenuous to blame Tom Norris for such doctrinal confusion.
If the term “reformed Sabbath” is confusing, then use another synonym such as the Gospel Sabbath. But alas, that term has also been taken to mean the Sunday Sabbath, so I guess we should not use that phrase either?
Since when does false doctrine control any discussion or set any rules? Besides, history moves on, and thus terminology changes.
The “reformed Sabbath” is a new doctrine for the Protestant church. Let all Laodiceans get used to this paradigm shifting view of the Gospel Sabbath. It will divide the Laodicean Church, separating those who truly follow Christ from the many pretenders that refuse to repent of their false doctrines.
Bob2 said: 2. Reformed Sabbath, nowhere does Christ command the Sabbath to be Reformed in the New Covenant.
Tom said: Christ reformed and changed the OC Sabbath into a NC doctrine in all four Gospels. This is what he is clearly doing in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Those that pretend otherwise are not following the Jesus of the NT. They are not paying attention to the Word, even as they follow a fraud.
Bob2 said: You, Tom Norris have made this up out of "whole cloth". This is your made up baby. Show me Theological Scholars that can see and believe what you tout. I have done so on NCT.
Tom said: Ha! You flatter me. But I am not an apostle. I have no authority, desire, or mission to invent new doctrine, nor is this what is taking place. The Reformed Sabbath under discussion is a 1st century doctrine of Christ. He is the author of this active and very different Sabbath. Don’t shoot the messenger.
Jesus reformed the Sabbath in the Gospels, even as he taught his followers to embrace his controversial views. Jesus does not command us to reform the Sabbath; rather he is the one that has reformed and changed it for us; we must follow his teaching on this Gospel point as well as all others.
Bob2 said: Tom, you bear false witness if you claim that NCT requires you to worship a certain day to be saved.
Tom said: Bob, I never said such a thing. In fact, NCT does not believe in either a Sunday or a 7th day Sabbath. So how could they be guilty of teaching that “one must worship on a certain day to be saved.”
However, they are guilty of pretending that Jesus failed to teach a Sabbath doctrine for the church. This is such an outrageous error, that it makes me think the leaders of this group are either very dishonest or very incompetent. Don’t they know how to read the Gospels?
Bob2 said: The Gospel has no day commanded.
Tom said: The Gospel is a Jewish paradigm. Only the 7th day can be the Sabbath, as taught by Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath. While it is no longer sinful to work on the NC Sabbath, aka the Lord’s Day in the 1st century, only the 7th day can be correct. Those that follow Jesus will know this fact and understand.
Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
Bob2 said: The congregational church agree when to meet is the way New Covenant church arrive at when they meet for Church.
Tom said: The church must only follow the teaching of Christ in all things. They have no authority, right, or mission to invent doctrine. If Jesus teaches pluralism, and a NC Sabbath that is either abolished or can be on whatever day the church chooses, then fine. But this is not what the NT teaches.
This is the great sin of Laodicea; they think they can make up whatever doctrines they want. Moreover, their views must be true, because the church has grown wealthy over the years, proving that God is blessing their good works and Gospel teaching. Too bad that are delusional and very wrong about everything, especially the doctrine of the Sabbath, which confounds and condemns every denomination.
Rev. 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Bob2 said: I am attending a non-denominatal church on Saturday, it preaches the gospel clearly and meets on Saturday and Sunday. Here is the website. Point out one doctrine you would disagree with:
Tom said: I can’t find enough theology on the web site to know what this group teaches. However, they appear no different from all the other confused and blind churches in Laodicea. Nothing new here.
Bob2 said: NCT Worthless, impractical and garbage??? I think you said something about slandering people, well this is liable. NCT is more based on scripture.
Tom said: Those who tell the truth cannot be guilty of slander. Slander must be false. NCT is utter nonsense and double-talk. It is based on false assumptions and sloppy hermeneutics. It is a hopeless doctrine that will never make any sense.
Bob2 said: Tom has never been able to point to a command in the NT that Jesus or one of the Apostles has given.
Tom said: The Gospels not only contain Jesus Reformed, NC Sabbath, but also his many calls for sinners to repent and follow his Gospel teaching. Those that pretend otherwise will be locked out of the Kingdom of God.
Bob2 said: The GCI (The renamed WCG ) worship on both days depending on the congregation. There is no Reformed Gospel Sabbath.
Tom said: Ha! Why would you cite such a confused and self-destructing denomination to prove your point? The fact that this group has embraced “pluralism” and they can’t figure out the Gospel Sabbath, or which day to meet, is embarrassing and only underscores the universal need for reform in the Laodicean Church.
Conclusion;
There is a new doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath in the public domain. It comes from the Adventist Community, even though it is shocking and totally unexpected by them. Let all search the Words of Christ in order to find this hidden doctrine that has only recently come to light.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for the active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath
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Tom Norris said:
Tom posted: Bob, you will never understand the NT if you don’t stop being so dishonest with the Bible. Your proof texting ways are leading you to false and impossible positions. You will never understand the Gospel clearly until you respect the Word and treat it honestly, through the use of the Protestant Hermeneutic.
To understand the Gospel Sabbath correctly, one must first go to the Gospels and sit at the feet of Jesus, the greatest theologian the world has ever known, and learn from him.
Those who refuse to do this, pretending that Jesus failed to teach a NC doctrine of the Sabbath, are closing their eyes to obvious and clear truth. They are blind by choice, and thus there is no forgiveness or salvation for them.
Tom, Jesus is offering himself as rest for all. See the chapters you quote John 9, 10. In John 10 Jesus says there will be a new message and woe to those that do not heed it. You are saying the message is not different accept a concocted Reformed Sabbath. In the whole NT there is no command to keep the Sabbath/Saturday. In fact, you know the Bible teaches about the Old Covenant and the New Covenant and states in:
Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Tom you are the one that should be trembling, that you have not accepted obvious changes that happen at the Cross. You condemn as the Pharisees did. You need to study and pray for discernment. These are plain words.
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Will add my two cents here, The Sabbath of rest of the Seventh Solar day stands now and throughout eternity, for God does not change or His Word. You can only enter that rest in that window of time, 24 hrs. and the time should be spent with Him as He has come to tabernacle with His Own.
We rest physically and at the same time Spiritually, He sheds His light upon us as at no other time and assures us we can rest in His arms. To the one who does will find His Spirit has given him rest and a peace he never knew before. Keep His Holy Sabbath day in the Spirit and you will see. I've known a few that have acknowledged that it was a blessing like they never had before. Experience true peace and rest, do it!
Some verses,
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Ga 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Ga 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Ga 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Ga 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Ga 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Ga 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Ga 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Mt 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
He fulfilled them by keeping them, not doing away with HIS eternal law, it is as eternal as He is!
Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus kept them, He says so.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
Last edited by Gibs (02-13-12 3:33 pm)
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Gibs, several questions but her is the first:
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
In this quote, is Jesus talking about the 10 Commandments, or in general all commandments of God? If the 10 we and He have only 10 areas in our and His life for direction, right???
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Gibs,
Heb 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;
If the Jews, the best Sabbathkeepers kept the Sabbath, and the people of God kept it since the Jewish time, what possibly could this verse mean?? Throw in John 5:17
In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”
If Jesus and God are always working, where is the example to rest on the seventh day? It is from the 10 Commandments not Jesus or God, they have always been working. The original Gen 2:1-3 must have been to cease an activity not all work. Jesus was definitely talking of the Sabbath Rest his enemies were persecuting Him for.
If from the 10 Commandments then from the OT. Hebrews 8:13 says:
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
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Gibs said:
The Sabbath of rest of the Seventh Solar day stands now and throughout eternity, for God does not change or His Word. You can only enter that rest in that window of time, 24 hrs. and the time should be spent with Him as He has come to tabernacle with His Own.
Gibs, if God had a plan that went through stages, or phases, would you suggest God was a god of change??? No, just that He was working out the stages of the Plan of Salvation. When He promised Israel that they would be His chosen people FOREVER, when they failed in their unbelief, that was the condition that God had given, that they believe and keep His commands.
Gibs, you are anti-Biblical to suggest that ''you can only enter that rest in that window of time, 24 hours. If so what of this:
Heb 4:7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.”
Today, not seven days, seven weeks or seven years. we can be at rest with God TODAY.
Another thought, you are afraid if you say what the NT really says, that the warning of teaching the New Covenant will cause you to go to hell. The warning does not have a 10 in front of the commands. Abraham obeyed God's commands 430 years before the written law was given. The commands at that time, were anything God commanded, like taking Isaac to be sacrificed.
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Gibs said:
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
The law is part of the Word of God, that is given to be used to teach what had happened in the past, ir is like an archive. But if you study the Covenants, which I have not see you mention, you will not miss the disconnect between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant at the cross.
Hebrews 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
Sounds like a change by God, but no, it was planned.
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Bob, I own you an apology. You thought that Sal embraced NCT, and I could not see how a RC could take such a view. But you are correct. He does embrace this recently developed myth that all days are alike because Jesus supposedly fulfilled the Sabbath.
While Sal also defends Sunday, and links it to the resurrection, he does so mildly, preferring the new doctrine from NCT.
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … 818#p10818
This shows a few things; first, that Sal is not a very good RC, because they do not support such a view of the Sabbath. In fact, I don’t think one can be a RC if they deny Sunday as the NC Lord’s Day.
So it turns out that Sal is not really a RC, but a hybrid of his own making who happens to be affiliated to some extent with the RCC. So good for him to think on his own. Once he faces up to the flaws in NCT, which are fatal, he will move on to find truth. This is the way it works for who are honestly trying to follow the Word of Christ.
Regardless, what anyone says; NCT is still absurd and impossible. This false doctrine is only gaining traction because there is no solid or true view of the Sabbath in the church.
So NCT sounds as good, if not better, than most of the confused and contradictory views that are all over the place. At least until now. Which is why NCT is so easily defeated by the Reformed Sabbath of Christ, as promoted by Adventist Reform on this site. Those who have tried to defend NCT have failed for all to see. The active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ, as taught in the Gospels, is the only doctrine that is true for the church.
Bob said: Tom, Jesus is offering himself as rest for all. See the chapters you quote John 9, 10.
Tom said: Jesus gives rest; but he is not rest. He is “humble” and “gentle” even as he is our Righteousness. But he is not rest, nor does he teach such a point.
Matt. 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
Matt. 11:29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
Out of almost 300 uses of the word “rest” in the entire Bible, these two verses above are the only ones from Jesus. And they do not say what NCT claims. Jesus does not teach that he is our rest, which is the great obsession of NCT.
NCT teaches false doctrine!
There is not one verse in the NT that teaches, “Christ is our rest.” So why would anyone pretend otherwise?
Jesus is our peace. Perhaps the word Peace makes more sense than rest, because this is really what the term “rest” also means in this context.
However, the NCT crowd needs to have Jesus be our “rest” so that they can claim he is the Sabbath fulfilled. To use the word “peace” does not make the same point they are trying so hard to make.
So they make things up and manipulate the Word. But they have failed for all to see. NCT is a proof texting farce. It is based on a dishonest misuse of scripture.
John 14:27 “Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.
John 16:33 “These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”
John 20:19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and *said to them, “Peace be with you.”
John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”
Eph. 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
Phil. 4:7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all 1comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Col. 3:15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.
2Th. 3:16 Now may the Lord of peace Himself continually grant you peace in every circumstance. The Lord be with you all!
The NT teaches that Jesus is our peace, even the “Lord of peace,” but not our rest, or the Lord of rest.
Jesus claim to be the Lord of the Sabbath is not the same as claiming to be the Lord of Rest because the NC Sabbath is not about rest. Thus Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath doctrine, having authority over the law of the 4th Commandment.
Thus Jesus teaches a very active, pro-working Sabbath doctrine that gives an exemption from the rules of the 4th commandment.
Christ gives us both rest and peace, but he is not our rest or our Sabbath. These are silly words games played by those who hate Sabbatarians and misunderstand the Gospel.
Bob said: In John 10 Jesus says there will be a new message and woe to those that do not heed it. You are saying the message is not different accept a concocted Reformed Sabbath.
Tom said: John 9 is where Jesus heals the man born blind on the Sabbath, causing great commotion and even an investigation, which led to the excommunication of the healed man.
The credibility and authority of Christ is called into question, even as he is accused of Sabbath breaking. Thus Jesus OC Sabbath Breaking, and his promotion and defense of his reformed, active, Gospel Sabbath is the context for John 10.
John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
John 9:36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”
John 9:37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.”
John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Both John 9 & 10 are about the Reformed, NC Sabbath versus the OC Sabbath of Moses. Here is a battle of the Two Covenants in full doctrinal display.
What kind of Jesus do we believe? One that teaches the OC Sabbath, like the SDA’s? Or the Sunday keeping Sabbath, like most of the church? Or the Every Day, non Sabbath of Christ?
All of these are false.
Those who receive Eternal Life must only embrace the Lord of the reformed and active Gospel Sabbath. Just like the healed man in chapter 9, who followed the Good Shepherd.
John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.
There is only one true Son of Man. He can be identified in a number of ways, one of which is by his doctrine of the Sabbath. John 10 makes this point, even as the healed blind man heard the call of Christ and followed him, adopting the Gospel Sabbath in the process.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
In a reference to the religious leaders that has just excommunicated the healed man, Jesus calls them “hired hands,” religious mercenaries who do not care for the people under their watch.
Which is why they were angry that this man born blind from birth was healed on the Sabbath. Proving that they did not care if he were healed or not. In fact, in order to keep the Law, they would rather he still be blind. Which is why Jesus called them blind, and sinful.
John 10:12 “He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.
John 10:13 “He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep.
John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
This public debate about the Sabbath doctrine, complete with the judgment that the healed man, and Jesus were breaking the Sabbath, resulted in division and debate. Some thought Jesus was from God and others concluded with the leaders, that he was from the devil and most likely insane.
John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”
John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”
So which Jesus do we follow today? The one who broke the OC Sabbath and reformed it? Or the one that claims he has fulfilled the Sabbath and now there is no weekly doctrine for the church? The latter is a fraud.
John 10:24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.
This reference to “works” in this passage relates to the healing of the blind man in John 9. While many were amazed at such a healing, the fact it was done in violation of the OC Sabbath Law raised many questions. Would God support someone who broke the Sabbath in such a public manner?
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”
John 10:31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
Today, it is easy to figure out which Christ we are following. Those who embrace a Sunday keeping Christ have the wrong one, and so too the SDA’s, with their OC Christ who teaches the OC Sabbath of the Pharisees.
Today, there is another false Christ on the loose today. He originated with the NCT crowd in the 1970’s that claimed Jesus is our Sabbath and therefore there is no such weekly doctrine for the church. This version of Christ is just as false as the other frauds. Anyone who follows these frauds, with their phony Sabbath doctrines, is not following the true Shepherd. This is what John 9 and 10 teach to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.
Bob said: In the whole NT there is no command to keep the Sabbath/Saturday.
Tom said: There is no command to “keep” the OC Sabbath by Christ, because this is not what he was observing or teaching. So why would there be any such command?
Rather, Christ teaches that all are to follow is Gospel teaching, including what he taught about the NC Sabbath. Thus the blind man had to be healed to first understand the Gospel Sabbath, while those who could see, failed to embrace the Lord of the Sabbath and his new doctrines.
If you don’t think John 9 & 10 teaches the NC Sabbath of Christ, then you are blind. Just like the Pharisees in these passages.
Bob said; In fact, you know the Bible teaches about the Old Covenant and the New Covenant and states in: Heb 8:13.
Tom said: I agree that the OC Sabbath is “obsolete.” But not the NC Sabbath of Christ. It was brand new and fresh in the 1st century. Thus the NC Sabbath renders the OC Sabbath obsolete for those who embrace the Gospel.
Jesus’ view of the Sabbath is what the church must follow. Why any Christian would challenge his view is very strange. The church cannot have a different doctrine of the Sabbath from Christ. To the extent they do, they are wrong.
NCT denies there is weekly Sabbath doctrine for the church. But Jesus does not agree, which is why he never teaches what they claim he teaches. They are making things up in order to defend false doctrine.
Bob said: Tom you are the one that should be trembling, that you have not accepted obvious changes that happen at the Cross. You condemn as the Pharisees did. You need to study and pray for discernment. These are plain words.
Tom said: As the Covenants change, so too the Sabbath. Thus there is OC doctrine of the Sabbath and NC version that is explained, defended, and promoted over and over in the Gospels.
Rather than figure out the correct NC Sabbath, NCT has assumed that Jesus is the Sabbath fulfilled, and thus there is no longer any weekly Sabbath day for the church. Then of course, these same people go to church on Sunday.
NCT is absurd and false. It is irresponsible and hypocritical, unable to honestly deal with the NT.
Gibs said: Will add my two cents here, The Sabbath of rest of the Seventh Solar day stands now and throughout eternity, for God does not change or His Word.
Tom said: God’s Word is progressive, even as it does change. This is why there is an Old Covenant, and a New Covenant. Both are God’s will, but each in its own time.
Today we live in the NC, which is not to be confused with the OC. But yet many do this. I fear you are one of them.
Gibs said: You can only enter that rest in that window of time, 24 hrs. and the time should be spent with Him as He has come to tabernacle with His Own.
Tom said: You are describing the OC Sabbath, not the NC Sabbath that Jesus promotes in the Gospels.
Gibs said: We rest physically and at the same time Spiritually,
Tom said: The OC Sabbath prohibited work and travel, forcing rest on all but the Priests, who had to work on the 7th day. But the NC Sabbath is not about rest, which is why Jesus is always shown as very active on the Sabbath.
In fact, the NT does not show Jesus resting on the Sabbath at any time when he was alive on earth. So your view is not matching up with the Lord of the Sabbath.
Gibs said: He sheds His light upon us as at no other time and assures us we can rest in His arms. To the one who does will find His Spirit has given him rest and a peace he never knew before.
Tom said: You have the wrong Sabbath. Jesus teaches a Sabbath that is focused on others, not ourselves. Which of course, is the essence of the Gospel.
However, those who think it is a day all about them, their rest, their spiritual peace, have missed the Gospel Sabbath. And so too those who think they must not work or play on the 7th day, trying to obey the law and keep it holy. This is not the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. It is the OC Sabbath of the Pharisees, the enemies of Christ.
Gobs said: Keep His Holy Sabbath day in the Spirit and you will see. I've known a few that have acknowledged that it was a blessing like they never had before. Experience true peace and rest, do it!
Tom said: When the cry goes up to “keep the Sabbath holy” it is a sure sign that the room is full of legalists and Pharisees. It’s as if the church has forgotten why Christ’s Sabbath teachings caused so much trouble, sending him to the Cross.
Jesus did not keep the Sabbath holy, nor did he refrain from work or travel on the 7th day. It was never a day of rest for him. He worked hard preaching, teaching, traveling, debating, and healing.
The NC Sabbath of Christ is not like the “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the Judaizers and the SDA’s. These are two very different doctrines and it is time for the church to stop being so blind about the Gospel Sabbath.
Conclusion
It is a great theological mistake to think there is only one doctrine of the Sabbath in the Bible. There is an OC Sabbath, and a NC Sabbath. Both are on the 7th day, and both stand as a memorial to the Creator God of the Jews and the Genesis story. Then the similarity ends.
The NC, 7th day Sabbath is not about forced rest and holiness to the law, but about the Gospel, and freedom from the law to do good works as taught by Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath.
There is only one, 7th day Gospel Sabbath for the church. At the end of time, the Laodicean Church will understand this amazing fact and repent, moving forward to better understand the Gospel.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, scripture doesn't tell us there is a New Covenant sabbath yet you believe it. Are you saying that Jesus is not the Rest of Christians because it doesn't specifically say such? Does He ask that we rest in Him? In whom do you rest? You don't even claim a Sabbath rest. You tell us that the so called new covenant sabbath doesn't require any rest. Where does scripture say that? You are going to have to come up with something much better that you have previously presented before you will get any adherents.
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Tom, I got a chuckle out of your post. You admit that Sal sees the NCT issues. Then you go on to do a Goggle of "Reformed Sabbath. I did it again and none of your posts show up on the first page. You need to read the Bible in context and realize that the Sabbath pointed forward to the Rest found in forgiveness of sin in Jesus. There is nothing wrong with congregational meeting on Saturday, Wednesday or Sunday. When this meeting time becomes the main topic, we as Christians are sidetracked from the real issue of forgiveness of sin as represented by Jesus fulfilling the Sabbath shadow. Col 2:16,17.
I found one of the Goggle search agreeing with Christ as the Rest but then refers to the Westminister Confession. The Westminister Confession declares Sunday as the Christian Sabbath since Christ's death. That is unBiblical if one attempt to enforce that. There is no command to change the Sabbath to Sunday, and no condemning any Christian that assembles them selves on any day.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
This leaves room for a group of Christians, where two or three are gathered to worship God. :
Matt 18:20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
If it was important as you claim, why wasn't the 7th day or Sabbath mentioned??
The chuckle was mainly because you find with that Google search your own self naming, the Gospel Sabbath. There is no specific day of worship in the Gospel, except where you name it as such, so you will find your own writings.
Another point, Jesus kept the Sabbath like a good Jew, in the New Covenant He is the fulfillment of the Sabbath rest by forgiving sin. Just because Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are Gospels doesn't give someone the right to call it the Gospel Sabbath. When the New Covenant began, was the Sabbath emphasized? NO? Hebrew 4 shows the meaning and fulfillment of the Sabbath, unless you distort the message.
Last edited by bob_2 (02-15-12 2:07 pm)
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Tom, I think there will be a lot of people that don't worship on Sabbath Saturday that would stand up with those that have predicted the final test as worship on Sunday or die. I believe their are many that believe in civil right and fair justice that you would not be alone at the stroke of midnight at the end of the Tribulation.
For myself, I belief that final test has something to do with LOVE and will be demonstrated by those that stand up for all those that will be punished for standing for truth or idiotic issues like a Sabbatarian day of worship that is unable to be shown to be mandated by God.
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Louie said: Tom, scripture doesn't tell us there is a New Covenant sabbath yet you believe it.
Tom said: Jesus is the one who introduced, explained, and promoted the NC Sabbath, -in all four Gospels.
This is why I believe it.
The Gospels clearly and repeatedly recount Jesus NC Sabbath teaching and behavior, as well as his debates with the Pharisees. How can anyone deny this point?
This delusion by the NCT crowd that Jesus does not teach a NC Sabbath is absurd. The facts are clear for anyone that wants to read the Gospels.
Louie said: Are you saying that Jesus is not the Rest of Christians because it doesn't specifically say such?
Tom said: Jesus is the Son of God. He is not the Sabbath, nor did he ever fulfill or abolish the 4th Commandment. He reformed the Sabbath, basing this change on the Priesthood of all Believers, which is not the same as either fulfilling or removing.
Jesus gives rest, but he is not rest. Nor is he the Sabbath.
He is our Righteousness and our Peace, but he never said he was “our rest.” He gives us rest, but he is not rest.
While we can spiritually rest in his Word and trust our souls to the Gospel, he is not a replacement for the doctrine of the Sabbath as NCT claims.
Christians will only have the true rest, when they receive Eternal Life and can live in a world without sin and death.
John 6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
There is one passage in the OT where “rest in the Lord” is used. It is not saying that the Lord is rest, but that we are to “trust” and rely on God for salvation and Eternal Life.
Psa. 37:5 Commit your way to the LORD,
Trust also in Him, and He will do it.
Psa. 37:6 He will bring forth your righteousness as the light
And your judgment as the noonday.
Psa. 37:7 Rest in the LORD and wait patiently for Him;
Do not fret because of him who prospers in his way,
Because of the man who carries out wicked schemes.
Psa. 37:8 Cease from anger and forsake wrath;
Do not fret; it leads only to evildoing.
Psa. 37:9 For evildoers will be cut off,
But those who wait for the LORD, they will inherit the land.
Psa. 37:10 Yet a little while and the wicked man will be no more;
And you will look carefully for his place and he will not be there.
Psa. 37:11 But the humble will inherit the land
And will delight themselves in abundant prosperity.
Louie asked: Does He ask that we rest in Him?
Tom said: No. Jesus does not ask for us to “rest” in him. He asks for sinners to repent and believe his Gospel, so that he can give them spiritual rest and eventually Eternal Life.
If you think Jesus teaches that he is our Sabbath rest, where are these Gospel passages? Show us.
But there are no such passages. Jesus rarely uses the word rest, even as he often repudiates the OC Sabbath of rest, reforming it into a doctrine of Gospel action and good works.
Furthermore, while Paul speaks about finding “refreshing rest,” it is not from Christ or even about Christ.
Rom. 15:32 so that I may come to you in joy by the will of God and find refreshing rest in your company.
Moreover, we also see Paul complaining that he is depressed, having “no rest for his spirit,” because he could not find his Gospel associate Titus. Does he mean that he does not have Christ? No. The term “rest” is not a reference to Christ in the NT.
2Cor. 2:12 Now when I came to Troas for the gospel of Christ and when a door was opened for me in the Lord,
2Cor. 2:13 I had no rest for my spirit, not finding Titus my brother; but taking my leave of them, I went on to Macedonia.
We are to believe in Christ’s teachings, not pretend he is our personal hammock for our resting pleasure. Such religious double-talk comes from a false view of the Gospel.
1Pet. 4:14 If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.
While Spirit of God “rests” on the believer, Jesus is not our rest. He is our savior, teacher, friend, and high priest. He is even our peace. But he not our rest, or the Sabbath. How can Jesus even be a day?
Sorry to be the one to bust this myth about rest and the Sabbath, but the facts are what they are. The NT does not support NCT, much less a Sabbath of rest.
Louie asked: In whom do you rest?
Tom said: When believers die, it can be said that they are resting in Christ. Here the NT term for rest is really sleep.
1Cor. 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
1Cor. 15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
1Cor. 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
Below is another use of rest. It is not on the Sabbath, and it is not a good one because it shows that those who take their rest, are often oblivious to the Gospel. Which is why Jesus had to wake up his sleepy and resting disciples and alert them for Gospel action. For which they were unprepared and clueless.
Mark 14:41 And He *came the third time, and *said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? It is enough; the hour has come; behold, the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Jesus is not about “rest” but about Gospel Action. Let all who rest in the false doctrine of NCT wake up and understand the Gospel. The Gospel Sabbath promotes action, not rest. Enough about rest, it is time to wake up and understand the Gospel Story correctly.
Jesus never asked anyone to “rest in him.” Such religious jargon, which is really about death, is confused and very wrong as used by NCT.
Jesus did not teach that his followers were to rest on the Sabbath, or that he was the fulfillment of the Sabbath. So why is anyone trying such a stunt today?
Louie said: You don't even claim a Sabbath rest.
Tom said: Jesus does not teach that the NC Sabbath is for rest, but for hearing the Gospel and doing good works.
This is why the Jews became so angry with Christ. His NC view of the Sabbath was in direct conflict with the OC doctrine. Which is the point. The NC Sabbath is very different from the OC doctrine. It is not about resting, but working…
Louie said: You tell us that the so called new covenant sabbath doesn't require any rest. Where does scripture say that?
Tom said: Why is it so hard to believe that Jesus taught an active, NC Sabbath? Is Jesus that difficult to understand? Or have the SDA’s placed a cultic spell on people that prevents them from understanding the NT?
The Gospel Sabbath was a major teaching of Christ, even as it was the one doctrine that caused the most controversy and led directly to his death on the cross.
Jesus had a lot to say about his position on the Sabbath, and he fought long and hard to make his viewpoint clear.
At no time did he teach a Sabbath rest. Rather, he taught the opposite. This can be easily seen in all four Gospels, which are supported by Paul and the rest of the NT.
In fact, when Jesus did tell his disciples that it was time to rest, it was not on the Sabbath at all! No doubt this is surprising to those who are not tuned in to what Jesus is teaching about the 4th Commandment.
Mark 6:31 And He said to them, “Come away by yourselves to a secluded place and rest a while.” (For there were many people coming and going, and they did not even have time to eat.)
Mark 6:32 They went away in the boat to a secluded place by themselves.
Louie said: You are going to have to come up with something much better than you have previously presented before you will get any adherents.
Tom said: When it comes to understanding the NC Sabbath, there is nothing “better” than the Gospels. Here is where the Sabbath teachings of Christ have been recorded for all.
We either embrace what Jesus teaches or we do not. NCT repudiates the Gospel Sabbath of Christ and so too the SDA’s, RC’s, and every organized denomination in the world. So be it.
The Jews were the first to reject the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. It infuriated them. So understand what kind of company you are keeping. Reject the Gospel Sabbath and you are also rejecting the Gospel, just like the Jews.
All are free to follow the genuine Gospel or not. Most in Laodicea are more comfortable with myths and half-truths than Gospel facts. This is normative, but sad nonetheless.
However, at some point, those who seek to follow the genuine Christ, will repent of their blindness and correctly understand the Gospel Sabbath as well as many other points.
Sadly, many will choose to remain blind, following a false Christ and a false Sabbath, even though they claim to see clearly.
Bob said: Tom, I got a chuckle out of your post. You admit that Sal sees the NCT issues.
Tom said: There is not much to see when it comes to NCT. It is based on many myths and false assumptions, which is why no denomination has ever embraced this recent theory about the Sabbath.
So all I admit is that Sal has fallen for this utter nonsense, proving that he is not a real RC.
Moreover, when Sal gets into the details of this debate, he will change his theology. NCT sounds pretty good until you hear the Gospel facts. Then it quickly turns false.
Bob said: Then you go on to do a Goggle of "Reformed Sabbath. I did it again and none of your posts show up on the first page.
Tom said: First off, correct theology is not dependent on Google.
Second, if you Google “Gospel Sabbath,” our discussion comes up on the first and second pages. And so too the “Reformed Sabbath.” Perhaps your computer is not working properly.
Here is what came up on the first page of both searches:
NCT; The Sabbath fulfilled in Christ by Tom Norris
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … christ.htm
Reformed Sabbath by Tom Norris
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … bath-1.htm
Regardless, there is an online record of our discussion about NCT. You have failed to defend this nonsense, even as you have been unable to respond to the points that prove you wrong. The record is online for all to see.
Bob said: You need to read the Bible in context and realize that the Sabbath pointed forward to the Rest found in forgiveness of sin in Jesus.
Tom said: Wrong again. The Sabbath points BACK toward the Creation Story. This is its’ primary function, which remains unchanged in the NC.
While there is a sense that Christ is our salvation and rest, and that heaven is the ultimate rest for the Christian, it does not change the fact that Christ is the Son of God. He is not a Day, nor is he “rest.”
Bob said: There is nothing wrong with congregational meeting on Saturday, Wednesday or Sunday. When this meeting time becomes the main topic, we as Christians are sidetracked from the real issue of forgiveness of sin as represented by Jesus fulfilling the Sabbath shadow. Col 2:16,17.
Tom said: Something is very wrong when any Christian refuses to embrace the teachings of Christ. This is true about any topic, not just the doctrine of the Sabbath.
Jesus teaches that the Sabbath is the day when the church is to come together to hear the Gospel. Over and over he set such an example, even as he defended his new view that it was also acceptable to work on this day. He never claimed to be its fulfillment.
Those who declare Jesus did not teach a weekly Sabbath doctrine for the church have been sidetracked into following a false Christ, who cannot forgive sin or give Eternal Life
Bob said: I found one of the Goggle search agreeing with Christ as the Rest but then refers to the Westminister Confession.
Tom said: While there is freedom of assembly for Christians on any day, they have no freedom to embrace false doctrine on any day.
You need to find Christ agreeing with your view of the Sabbath. Then you will have some validation for NCT. Otherwise, you are just wasting your time.
All Christians must follow the teaching of Christ in all things, not just the Sabbath. Those who refuse, are not really Christians. They are pretenders. The Sabbath is a good test to see who is paying attention to the Word of Christ and who is not.
Bob quoted Matt 18:20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” Bob then said: If it was important as you claim, why wasn't the 7th day or Sabbath mentioned??
Tom said: Jesus gives us all the gifts of heaven, 7 days a week. He gives us spiritual peace and rest, as well as righteousness, forgiveness, sanctification, and salvation.
He will also give us the Spirit and bless the smallest group that gathers in his name, 24/7. He holds nothing back for the NC Sabbath, which is not a day of rest, but one of Gospel preaching and activity.
Bob said: Another point, Jesus kept the Sabbath like a good Jew,
Tom said: Wrong! Jesus broke the OC Sabbath and taught others to do the same. It is outrageous to make such a claim as you just made, proving that you are unable to be honest with the Gospels.
Jesus was sent to the cross because of his Sabbath breaking. Until you can get the Gospel Story straight, you will never understand much of anything correctly, much less the NC Sabbath.
Bob said: in the New Covenant He is the fulfillment of the Sabbath rest by forgiving sin.
Tom said: The law does not require “rest” from us, or from Christ. So these word games about rest are worthless. NCT is dishonest and incompetent garbage.
Jesus death on the cross was not because of “rest,” but because of sin. Nor did Jesus ever claim to be our rest, which is why there are no such passages in the Gospels. Christ gives rest, but he is not rest. No one is saved by Christ’s rest, but by his Righteousness, imputed to us for salvation.
Moreover, the Sabbath is a doctrine that is anchored to the past, to Creation, and made part of the Law of Moses and the fundamental teaching of Judaism. This fact will never be changed. Thus the Sabbath is not primarily a shadow, nor will it ever be reduced to such a metaphorical point.
While there is a sense that the Sabbath can also mean a future rest in the new earth, that is not its historical meaning, nor does this point in any way nullify its original meaning, which Christ embraced.
The fact that Jesus gave an exemption to his followers about working on the Sabbath shows that he was not removing this weekly public doctrine from the new Israel, the church, but reforming it. Which is why he never claimed to be the Sabbath fulfilled, as NCT claims. Jesus never taught NCT, and to pretend he did, is blasphemy.
Mark 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin” —
Bob said: Just because Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are Gospels doesn't give someone the right to call it the Gospel Sabbath.
Tom said: Jesus is the beginning of the New Covenant. His teachings define and explain the Gospel.
Moreover, Jesus taught a reformed, active, 7th day Gospel Sabbath from the very start of his ministry. His controversial NC Sabbath played a large role in his Gospel teachings, which is why all four Gospels feature the Sabbath teachings of Christ, the self-proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath.
How can anyone deny what is so clear and obvious? And why?
Bob asked: When the New Covenant began, was the Sabbath emphasized? NO?
Tom said: The answer is YES. Jesus unveiled his Gospel Sabbath at the very beginning of his ministry, and repeated his reformed teaching over and over on every Sabbath.
I suggest that you stop denying the Gospel facts and study what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. This is the only way to know the truth about this doctrine.
Mark 1:14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Mark 1:16 As He was going along by the Sea of Galilee, He saw Simon and Andrew, the brother of Simon, casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen.
Mark 1:17 And Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men.”
Mark 1:18 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him.
Mark 1:19 Going on a little farther, He saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who were also in the boat mending the nets.
Mark 1:20 Immediately He called them; and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants, and went away 1to follow Him.
Mark 1:21 They went into Capernaum; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach.
Mark 1:22 They were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
As soon as Jesus selected his apostles, he went to the synagogue on Sabbath and started preaching the Gospel, which included his reformed views about the Sabbath. Thus he amazed and the surprised the Jews, who were caught off guard.
No one saw the Gospel coming then, and few see or understand it now. Especially those who embrace NCT. They are far away from the Kingdom of God.
Bob said: Hebrew 4 shows the meaning and fulfillment of the Sabbath, unless you distort the message.
Tom said: The Gospel Sabbath must be defined and understood by the teaching of Christ in the Gospels. Period.
Those who choose to ignore Jesus on this point, pretending that he is not the source for the Gospel Sabbath, are blaspheming fools. Pretenders are not going to be granted Eternal Life, nor will anyone that plays games with the NT.
Furthermore, the word for rest in Heb 4: 9 does not mean rest as many translations have incorrectly shown. In fact, there is no doubt what the word means, because it is purposefully specific and unambiguous. Only the most dishonest and incompetent will deny the linguistical facts that prove them wrong.
See:
First off, the book of Hebrews is not the correct place to understand the doctrine of the NC Sabbath. Those that want to comprehend the Gospel Sabbath must go to Christ, - in the Gospels,- and study what he teaches about the Sabbath. His Gospel views are what the church must follow. Period.
Second, the linguistics of Heb 4: 9 supports the NC, 7th day Sabbath. Not a Sunday Sabbath or an Every Day Sabbath.
Listen to the facts:
The word "rest" in this verse is σαββατισμὸς sabbatismos - "Sabbatism," in the margin is rendered "keeping of a Sabbath."
It is a different word from σάββατον sabbaton - "the Sabbath;" and it occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, not even in the Septuagint.
It properly means "a keeping Sabbath" from σαββατίζω sabbatizō - "to keep Sabbath."
This word, not used in the New Testament, occurs frequently in the Septuagint; Exodus 16:30; Leviticus 23:32; Leviticus 26:35; 2 Chronicles 36:21; and in 3 Esdr. 1:58; 2 Macc. 6:6.
It differs from the word "Sabbath," which denotes "the time - the day;" while this other word, Sabbatismos, shows "the keeping," or "observance" of it; "the festival."
http://bible.cc/hebrews/4-9.htm
This passage about “rest” may be one of the most misunderstood and misinterpreted of all the scriptures. But there is no need to fear the facts. This passage supports the NC Sabbath, not the OC Sabbath of the SDA’s.
In fact, the recent Aramaic to English, and the God’s Word translation gets this passage correct, and so to the much older Douay-Rheims, RC translation, which is based on Jerome’s Latin Vulgate.
The Aramaic New Testament:
Jesus the Messiah spoke in the Galilean dialect of the Ancient Aramaic language. This is the language in which the disciples and the apostles preached the Gospel and the scribes recorded the Scriptures. The New Testament has been preserved in this sacred, scribal language since the Apostolic Age. The whole Bible was originated in this language. The translation that you will find on this website is made from the original Ancient Aramaic Scriptures directly into English, bypassing the errors of the Greek Original, the Latin Vulgate and all the Western translations made from them.
Heb 4: 9 ”So then, it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.”
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010) http://aramaic-plain-english.scripturet … rews/4.htm
GOD'S WORD Translation Bible
GW's publishers believe that communicating the original meaning of the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts that comprise the Scriptures such that everyone can comprehend requires taking a completely new look at the original languages. Many modern translations, they argue, have chosen simply to follow the traditions of older accepted translations, though the traditional words and grammar may no longer mean what they once did, or are not understood.
Heb 4: 9 Therefore, a time of rest and worship exists for God's people.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) http://gwt.scripturetext.com/hebrews/4.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God's_Word_Translation
Douay-Rheims Bible
The Douay-Rheims Bible is a scrupulously faithful translation into English from the Latin Vulgate Bible, which St. Jerome (342-420) translated into Latin from the original languages. The Vulgate quickly became the Bible universally used in the Latin Rite (by far the largest rite of the Catholic Church).
Heb 4: 9 There remaineth therefore a day of rest for the people of God.
Douay-Rheims Bible http://drb.scripturetext.com/hebrews/4.htm
http://www.marianland.com/bible20.html
All three of these translations are correct. Most others are not near as precise, and thus they open the door for those peddling false doctrines about the Sabbath.
The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews (See post 76)
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … 818#p10818
NCT is confused, dishonest, garbage. It is poison and false doctrine. Let all go to Christ, in the Gospels, and learn about his reformed, active, Gospel Sabbath.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform
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Tom, show me in the four, first books of the NT where Christ commanded anyone to keep the Sabbath. He was born under the OC and died to usher in His Kingdom, the NC.
What is the objective of the Sabbath when given at Sinai? REST. If you disagree you will not see and interpret Hebrew 4, or Col 2:16, 17 correctly. You will pick and choose the parts of the OC you hang onto, when Heb 8:13 says it is obsolete, and the New Covenant is in effect. What is the REST that the Christian is ultimately seeking, SOUL REST. Note what Jesus says about Himself:
Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
Last edited by bob_2 (02-16-12 3:03 pm)
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Tom, Heb 4:9 if read in context is talking about a REST no one on earth had entered yet, note:
Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[e] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
SABBATISMOS is used in Heb 4:9, the only place in the Bible. So it must have a different meaning than a seventh day Sabbath. And it does, it is the ultimate REST for the Christian, a heavenly reward, and rest from their sinful state.
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Bob, you are really not being very responsive to the points that need to be addressed.
Bob said: Tom, I think there will be a lot of people that don't worship on Sabbath Saturday that would stand up with those that have predicted the final test as worship on Sunday or die.
Tom said: The Laodiceans, meaning all denominations, are clueless about the Gospel and the doctrine of the Sabbath. So it does not matter what they do, unless it is repent. This is where all Gospel Reform starts. Not with double-talk and apologetics, and a worthless attempt to defend false doctrine.
The present state of the church is beyond bad. It is catastrophic. Which is why Christ demands that they all repent or be doomed, having their names removed from the Book of Life.
While the SDA’s were hot on the trail of much needed doctrinal reform, especially about the NC Sabbath, they botched Sabbath Reform, even as their once correct views on eschatology became confused, legalistic, and worthless.
The Adventist Community needs to understand all this and repent for 1888 and for Glacier View and return to the primary pillars of the Three Angels Messages before it is too late. This is the point of Adventist Reform.
Bob said: I believe their are many that believe in civil right and fair justice that you would not be alone at the stroke of midnight at the end of the Tribulation.
Tom said: The NT does not teach what the SDA’s do about Sunday laws. The SDA’s have the wrong view of the Sabbath and thus no one is going to persecute anyone for being so wrong about the Gospel. What is the point?
Bob said: For myself, I belief that final test has something to do with LOVE and will be demonstrated by those that stand up for all those that will be punished for standing for truth or idiotic issues like a Sabbatarian day of worship that is unable to be shown to be mandated by God.
Tom said: The last church has already FAILED the Pre Advent Judgment. This “test” administered by Christ, shows how bad things really are in the church. Everyone failed. All stand guilty and disobedient to the Gospel. Thus not one denomination today has entered a Gospel rest. They are all in the dark.
The real test for the church will be about the Gospel. Only those that repent of their false views and embrace the genuine Christ will pass. Only those that follow his controversial view of the Sabbath, and everything else, will be saved.
Those that refuse to repent and reform are showing they are following a false Christ, even as they turn on those who have the truth. Thus, the last Christians will be treated like the first Christians, and for the same reasons.
So the issue is not about a day, but about the Gospel. Those that follow the genuine Christ will also embrace his reformed and active view of the Sabbath.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
Bob said: Tom, show me in the four, first books of the NT where Christ commanded anyone to keep the Sabbath. He was born under the OC and died to usher in His Kingdom, the NC.
Tom said: Jesus did not teach or follow the OC Sabbath. Thus he never told anyone to “keep the Sabbath.” Rather, he taught that all manner of work was acceptable on the Sabbath, even moving furniture.
John 5:8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.”
John 5:9 Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk. Now it was the Sabbath on that day.
John 5:10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”
John 5:11 But he answered them, “He who made me well was the one who said to me, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk.’”
John 5:12 They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk’?”
John 5:13 But the man who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away while there was a crowd in that place.
John 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.”
John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
Those few that “believed” in Christ also embraced his controversial views of the Sabbath, which made them enemies of the Pharisees.
John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
John 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.
John 9:15 Then the Pharisees also were asking him again how he received his sight. And he said to them, “He applied clay to my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”
John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.
John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
John 9:36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”
John 9:37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.”
John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.
Those who accepted Jesus as the Messiah, embraced his active and reformed view of the Sabbath, even as they were excommunicated for Sabbath breaking and for defending the unlawful actions of Christ.
No wonder the NT shows converts “worshiping” Christ, the Sabbath Breaker, on the NC Sabbath. This is what all must do who believe in Christ. They must embrace his doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath and worship him on the 7th day.
Bob said: What is the objective of the Sabbath when given at Sinai? REST.
Tom Norris said: The Sabbath is first and foremost about the Creation Story. This will never change.
In Judaism, the Genesis account was the basis for the 7th day “rest.” This is not up for debate. It is a fact of history and theology. The Sabbath is a weekly memorial to the Genesis Creation Story and Jesus never taught otherwise, nor did he repudiate the Sabbath, claiming he fulfilled it.
Second, the Jewish Priests did NOT have any rest on the Sabbath. Although they were in charge of the oracles of God, and mediated for the people to God, they were not given a weekly rest. They had to work and serve the people, making sure the Temple services functioned properly, especially on the Sabbath.
While everyone else, the non-priests, entered into a state of forced rest, under penalty of Death, the Levites had a priestly exemption, which allowed them to work on the 7th day.
So the objective of the Sabbath day, - for the Priests-- was WORK, not rest. This point is critical to understand. And unless you do, you will not understand what Jesus is saying about the Gospel Sabbath.
I repeat; there was no rest for the Levites on the Sabbath. They had to work. So stop pushing this rest nonsense, as if it were true. You are not paying attention to the details about the Sabbath, and until you do, you will never understand Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath.
Under the NC, Jesus considered all that followed him to be Priests of God. Consequently, he gave them the same type of Priestly Sabbath exemption that the Levites enjoyed. Thus, the Gospel Priests, (meaning all Christians), can work on the Sabbath and not be guilty of breaking the 4th Commandment. This is fundamental to the Gospel Sabbath, as well as its OC basis.
Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
Matt. 12:7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.
Matt. 12:9 Departing from there, He went into their synagogue.
Matt. 12:10 And a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?” — so that they might accuse Him.
Matt. 12:14 But the Pharisees went out and conspired against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.
The NC Sabbath is still based on the Creation Story, but now there is the additional understanding that Christ was also part of the Creation Story. He is also our savior and High Priest, having more authority than Moses and the Law. Which is why he can give a Sabbath exemption to all, even as he declares that he is the Lord of the Sabbath doctrine.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
Jesus did not proclaim himself to be the fulfillment of the Sabbath, or to be the Lord of the abolished, OC Sabbath. Rather, he is Lord of the weekly Gospel Sabbath, even as his is both Creator and Savior.
The Lord’s Day is the active and reformed, 7th day Gospel Sabbath. It is not Sunday, nor is it anything like what the legalistic SDA’s teach about the Sabbath.
Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
Bob said: If you disagree you will not see and interpret Hebrew 4, or Col 2:16, 17 correctly. You will pick and choose the parts of the OC you hang onto, when Heb 8:13 says it is obsolete, and the New Covenant is in effect.
Tom said: The primary point of the Sabbath is the Creation Story. Not rest. Which is why the OC Priests had no Sabbath rest. The Levites had to work on the 7th day, every 7th day, and were guiltless for doing so. They had different Sabbath rules, and so too those who follow Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath.
This idea that Christ abolished the Sabbath, or made it into an Every Day doctrine is absurd. He did no such thing. Rather, he reformed the OC Sabbath into a NC doctrine for the church.
Bob said: What is the REST that the Christian is ultimately seeking, SOUL REST. Note what Jesus says about Himself:
Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
Tom said: Rest = the Gospel. Those who believe in Christ, are at spiritual rest. They have found salvation, peace, and rest, by faith in Christ.
Bob said: Tom, Heb 4:9 if read in context is talking about a REST no one on earth had entered yet, note:
Tom said: You are reading this passage wrong. Some of them DID obtain rest, even though “most of them” did not.
In fact, God promised Moses spiritual rest, and we can be sure he delivered on his promise.
Ex. 33:14 And He said, “My presence shall go with you, and I will give you rest.”
Moreover, the author urges those wavering about Christ to “enter that rest,” which means to believe and obey the Gospel.
Heb. 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
Heb. 4:11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
See also:
1Cor. 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
1Cor. 10:2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Cor. 10:3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
1Cor. 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock, which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
1Cor. 10:5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
1Cor. 10:6 Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
It is clear that “rest” means faith in the Gospel. Moreover, while “most of them” failed to please God and enter his rest, some of them did.
Heb. 3:16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
Heb. 3:17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
Heb. 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
Heb. 3:19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
Heb. 4:1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
Heb. 4:2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
Heb. 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest…
Those today, who deny the active and reformed Gospel Sabbath, will not receive the rest of Christ, nor his peace or blessing. They are refusing to follow the genuine Christ, coming “short” of the necessary faith and obedience for salvation.
Bob said: SABBATISMOS is used in Heb 4:9, the only place in the Bible. So it must have a different meaning than a seventh day Sabbath. And it does, it is the ultimate REST for the Christian, a heavenly reward, and rest from their sinful state.
Tom said: While the word for rest in Heb 4: 9 is rare, it does have a well-known and very specific meaning. It is a reference to embracing the NC Sabbath, which Jesus, our high priest and Lord of the Sabbath has reformed by giving all who follow him a Priestly exemption that allows work on the 7th day.
So there is a NC Sabbath for the Church. Those who deny this Gospel fact, and DENY there is a “time of Sabbath rest and worship,” are not following Christ or his Gospel.
Heb 4: 9 Therefore, a time of rest and worship exists for God's people.
Heb. 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
Heb. 10:24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
Heb. 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
There is a 7th day, NC Sabbath for the church. Those who embrace the genuine Gospel not only understand this point, but they have also entered into God’s rest. Which is why they do not need a resting Sabbath. They are at rest 24/7.
Thus the active, Gospel Sabbath is for those who have taken Christ’s yoke and received Gospel rest.
The OC Sabbath is for those, like the SDA’s, who do not understand the Gospel. Like the Judaizers, they are trying to obey the 4th Commandment to please God and uphold the law. Such a view of the Gospel and the Sabbath is fatal.
Thus the SDA’s have no spiritual rest during the week. Which is why they try and find some Gospel rest on the 7th day. But their week starts off empty every time. They don’t understand the Gospel, nor are they saved.
There is no spiritual rest for those Sabbatarians, or for those anti-Sabbatarians, that deny Christ’s reformed, active, NC Sabbath.
So every church in the land is wasting their time every Sabbath (or Sunday), as they try to follow a confused, OC version of the Sabbath, refusing to understand or correctly embrace the Gospel of Christ.
No wonder Christ has judged every church and denomination in Laodicea wrong about doctrine. Like the Jews, they have been disobedient to the Gospel, and have refused to enter the Gospel Rest of Christ.
Heb. 4:1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
Heb. 4:2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
Heb. 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest…
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Okay, so Tom you are refining your take on a NC Sabbath. All who accept must be found working on the seventh day, and resting on the other 6 day, is that what you are saying???
The verses that I read say the Old Covenant is obsolete, not abolished but obsolete. If Christ is the FULFILLMENT of the Sabbath, then their is no work for us to do in a REFORMED SABBATH. However, the NC has good deeds made by God for us to accomplish by the Holy Spirit's empowerment, but not just on Sabbath and unrelated to the Sabbath doctrine in OC or NC. Note this passage:
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
You continue to hang on the Gospel + Reformed Sabbath. The Bible says the Gospel +nothing. The Gospel includes the Holy Spirit that empowers good deeds in the Christian, but does not save. You need to take any Sabbath or deed out of the equation, as I read it.
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Bob said: Okay, so Tom you are refining your take on a NC Sabbath. All who accept must be found working on the seventh day, and resting on the other 6 day, is that what you are saying???
Tom said: I have been promoting the Gospel Sabbath the same way for more than 10 years. There is no “refinement”-taking taking place as you claim.
1. The Gospel gives spiritual rest and peace to the believing Christian 7 days a week, 24 hours per day.
Matt. 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
Col. 3:15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.
Phil. 4:5 Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near.
Phil. 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
2. Those that follow Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath, will also embrace his doctrine of the NC, 7th day Sabbath. Which is NOT about rest, but about active congregational worship and praise, and doing lots of good works. No need for rest. No time for rest. Action, worship, fellowship, meals, travel, and much work, -- all day on the genuine Lord’s day.
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Matt. 12:12 “How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
Mark 2:24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
When the Gospel Sabbath comes around each week, it is a day for the congregation to fellowship, eat together, and worship God and his Christ.
It is not a day when they are to pay their tithe to the priestly cast, now disguised as clergy. Trying to obey the OC law, in search of spiritual rest and peace from a false Christ.
Those who follow the genuine Christ, do have rest and peace, which comes from the assurance of salvation. They are free to do whatever work they want or need to do on the 7th day, including cooking, travel, buying things, watching TV, etc. Nothing is excluded, so long as it is good.
John 8:36 “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
Gal. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Bob said: The verses that I read say the Old Covenant is obsolete, not abolished but obsolete.
Tom said: The OC, as well as the OC Sabbath is obsolete. This is what Jesus was saying to the Jews. Something much better, a New Covenant, was replacing it, complete with a better, NC, Sabbath.
Bob said: If Christ is the FULFILLMENT of the Sabbath, then there is no work for us to do in a REFORMED SABBATH.
Tom said: Christ is NOT the “fulfillment” of the Sabbath. This myth is from the NCT crowd. Nowhere in the Bible is this nonsense taught. And neither are we meant to fulfill the Sabbath or refrain from work on the NC Sabbath.
Just as the OC Levites worked the hardest on the 7th day, so too those NC Priests who follow Christ. This is why Jesus gave his believers an exemption from the 4th Commandment. There was too much work to be done on the 7th day. No time for rest, but for action.
John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
Matt. 5:16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
Bob said: However, the NC has good deeds made by God for us to accomplish by the Holy Spirit's empowerment, but not just on Sabbath and unrelated to the Sabbath doctrine in OC or NC.
Tom said: While the believer should do good works every day, the Gospel Sabbath frees the believer from the prohibition against work on the 7th day. More than that, it encourages good deeds on the Sabbath, as well as the worship of God.
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Bob said: You continue to hang on the Gospel + Reformed Sabbath.
Tom said: The Gospel contains the active and reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ. So too the “law of Christ.”
This is why it is called the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. Misunderstand this doctrine, and you will misunderstand the Gospel.
Bob said: The Bible says the Gospel +nothing.
Tom said: The 7th day Gospel Sabbath is part of the Gospel teaching of Christ and the Law of Christ. This is the genuine Lord’s day, the NC Christian Sabbath.
It is also the culmination of many years of Sabbath Reform by the SDA’s, during which time they failed to understand the Gospel or the Sabbath correctly. But no longer. The 7th day Gospel Sabbath is here for all to see. It is a paradigm changing doctrine for the Advent Movement.
Bob said: The Gospel includes the Holy Spirit that empowers good deeds in the Christian, but does not save. You need to take any Sabbath or deed out of the equation, as I read it.
Tom said: No amount of works, either on the Sabbath or not, is salvific. I have not suggested otherwise.
Bob, don’t you think it is time to admit the obvious? NCT cannot be defended anymore than the OC “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the SDA’s. They are both false doctrines.
Don’t you think it is time to for the church to listen to the NC Sabbath teaching of Christ? I do.
It is time for the church, meaning all individuals in every church, to repent of their false doctrines, including their false views of the Sabbath, and embrace Gospel Reform.
The SDA’s should lead the way. They were getting close to understanding the NC Sabbath in 1888 and again in 1980, but turned away from the Gospel each time. Now they need to repent, complete Sabbath Reform, and move forward to develop the 4th Angels Message.
Don’t you agree?
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom said: Christ is NOT the “fulfillment” of the Sabbath. This myth is from the NCT crowd. Nowhere in the Bible is this nonsense taught. And neither are we meant to fulfill the Sabbath or refrain from work on the NC Sabbath.
This passage reads pretty clearly, Tom:
Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; THE REALITY, HOWEVER, IS FOUND IN CHRIST.
and
Romans 14:5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
Last edited by bob_2 (02-19-12 6:52 pm)
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