The Fraud of Traditional Adventism

don · 08-03-09 1:45 am

Adventism, to continually be effective, must seek to have Jesus and His ministry central to their whole psyche. IMO, this is the goal of the church.

renie · 08-03-09 1:48 pm

I like Max Lacados little book, Its NOT about ME. In our Sabbath School classes, we spend way too much time examinig our spiritual condition. We disect and examine our daily walk. Do we spend enough time with the Lord? Do we spend too much time watching TV or on our computers?

How much time is enough time in Bible study and prayer? Is an hour enough? No, nothing is ever enough, it seems. We make it all about us and our performance!

Max says its NOT about us, its about God and His love.

John 14: 35 sums it up for me. They will know you are my disciples if you love one another.

If I try to follow that commandment, I wont have much time to focus on myself.

george · 08-03-09 5:06 pm

Hi Irene,

BINGO! That is the trouble with much of Adventism. Its a continual self-examination project where the Bible is used for one of two purposes - to find out what else I need to do to qualify for salvation; and, proof texting to convince people that our theology is right.

I'm reading a really good book that was mentioned on the Spectrum website The Blue Parakeet by Scot McKnight. He gives several ways not to read the Bible, all of which my SDA background focused on - he calls them shortcuts to reading the Bible.

It goes something like this:Looking for morsels of law - which makes us intoxicated with our own moral superiority and more concerned wigth being right than being good. PLUS, making us judgmental, of course.

Only looking for blessings and promises - which is unrealistic and has nothing to do with real life where there is doubt, defeat, disobedience and darkness.

Looking for mirrors and inkblots - where we project onto the Bible what we want to see. Instead of entering into the story, we manipulate the story so it enters into our story.

Looking for puzzle pieces to make a whole picture. The porblem with this is that, just like the puzzles we buy, we already have the picture were looking to piece together and these people know what the Bible says before they open it up because theyve already puzzled it together. This method ignores some of the pieces because they dont fit into our preconceived picture.

It goes on and Im still reading. Cant wait to read more.

don · 08-04-09 3:26 am

Tom,

As I have read some of your posts, it seems to me that what you call Adventism has very little to do with historic Seventh-day Adventist life.

If I am not mistaken, the date of 1844 has no prophetic relevance in your Adventist Reform theology.

Thus, the Sanctuary in connection with the 2300 days and the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary dont seem to be part of Adventist Reform, either.

I suggest that Adventist Reform would call on all the Adventist pioneers, James and Ellen White and Joseph Bates included, to give up their support of 1844 and their support of the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary doctrine.

It would call on the Whites and Bates to quit teaching abstinence from alcohol.

It would call on the Whites and Bates to denounce their support of the tithing principle.

Now, I know some would applaud such a revision of Adventism. My point is that Adventist Reform seems to be a Sabbatarian Millerite movement rather than a Seventh-day Adventist movement.

billdljr · 08-11-09 11:51 pm

Tom,

It is a mistake to promote all that Des teaches as if his views are the final word for the Adventist movement. I am as eager for biblical reform for Adventism as you are but to go down the road with Des rejection of the historicity of Genesis 1-11 is a grave mistake.

Des now embraces Hugh Ross progressive creationism which is a code word for theistic evolution. Des feels that the only way to save our youth in the church is to reject young earth creationism. Actually to reject biblical creationism would be the death knell of Adventism and send it down the road to humanism and existentialism. This it the very road which my friend Bob Brinsmead took and now he is no longer a Christian. He is now a theistic humanist who rejects all that the bible teaches and he states that we can know almost nothing about God and who He is.

Also I would like you to reconsider your view that the judgment referred to in the first angels message is referring to the second coming. The apostles clearly believed that the world was being judged NOW in the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Christ is now set down upon His throne and He is judging the nations and individuals according to their response to the gospels call for all to repent and trust in the sinless life and atoning death of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin. The hour of his judgment did not begin in 1844. It began when our Lord was enthroned as King of Kings and Lord of Lords awaiting until all His enemies would be His foot stool. This is the entire theme of Revelation as well as the Pauline epistles.

john8verse32 · 08-12-09 8:56 am

Bob Brinsmead ...is now a theistic humanist who rejects all that the bible teaches and he states that we can know almost nothing about God and who He is.

Wasnt it Tom here who called Brinsmead the greatest SDA theologian ever?

what should we believe happened?

should we think he started actually looking at all the evidence? and started thinking that humans are important, unlike the ancient Hebrew claim that God could justifiably kill people off in floods and plague and opening up the earth, and in the final Great BBQ by the millions?

why can't humanism and Christianity co-exist?

billdljr · 08-15-09 10:09 pm

Humanism and Christianity as belief systems do in fact co-exist. But both belief systems are mutually exclusive so far as the persons personal choice is concerned. Either we will embrace the one and hate the other or we will hate the one and love the other. The God of Christianity is the creator/redeemer God who is revealed in the bible. The god which humanism proclaims is the god invented in the mind of man, it a god made in the image of man.

Humanism denies the existance of the God of the bible. In the end we will all see which is the true God and whether the God of the bible will destroy all sin and sinners who reject His forgiveness and eternal life through faith in the sinless life and atoning death of the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ is either who He said He was or else He was a self deceived lunatic. You will either love Him as Lord and Savior or else you will hate and reject Him as an impostor and a deceiver. The choice is each persons to make.

elaine · 08-15-09 11:11 pm

When has Humanism engaged in massive destruction of innocent peoples--nothing akin to the religious destruction throughout this world's history.

Humanism puts mankind as God's highest creation, which is the belief of religionists. Religion has caused more wars and strife than humanists have ever done.

This is what the Golden Rule is all about:

Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

There is nothing about a religious belief in that, and yet more than a dozen ancient cultures have this as one of their documented mottos. It is tolerant of others; while religion is often very intolerant of others not like themselves.

billdljr · 08-16-09 2:39 pm

The entire communist revolution of the eighteenth through the twenty first century was based upon humanism. The Marxist leftists murdered untold millions in the French Revolution, China, Russia, Cambodia, South Africa, Cuba and many other leftist regimes in Asia and Africa. These atrocities were all committed in the name of humanism and the social good of the community.

To believe that humanism has been a blessing to humanity is the height of absurdity. Humanism hates all forms of biblical Christianity. One only needs to read the Humanist Manifesto to see how antagonistic and intolerant humanists are towards the Christian religion. Their motto is certainly not to live by the Golden Rule. Those who think it is are living in a fantasy land. The golden rule of humanism is the social Darwinist lie of survival of the fittest, abortion on demand and “euthanasia” of the unfit in society. There is more freedom and tolerance of differing philosophies in Christian dominated societies that there ever was or will be in humanist societies.

Those who have embraced humanism and seen its fruits have lived to regret their rejection Gods word and His Law. Solzhenitsyn is one of those who have seen the fruit first hand.

Message edited by billdljr on August 16, 2009

billdljr · 08-16-09 3:31 pm

To John Alfke,

God destroyed the Canaanite and antediluvian societies because they deserved to be destroyed. The untold abominations of these peoples demanded justice be executed upon them. Gods punishment of any society which abounds in lawless murder, rape, sexual perversion, and outrageous behavior is concrete proof in the existence of the God of the bible.

Those who suffer under these unjust governments cry out to God for justice and He hears the cries of the innocent and executes justice. However, when He punishes the wicked evil-doers, the unbelieving rabble complain that the God of the bible is a murderer and a monster. But the truth is that God always gives fair warning before He punishes the wicked and invites them to repent and turn to Him and His Law.

elaine · 08-16-09 8:58 pm

Communism, as practiced in Russia was not humanism, nor is the Humanist Manifesto ignoring the needs of humanity. That they cross all religious lines by not adopting any of the many gods in the world held sacred today, is part of their belief.

The most rigidly fundamentalist belief: The Muslims who operate on Sharia law and unquestioned obedience, are to be feared. Even the Christian fundamentalists are the most dangerous because they are intolerant of any idea of the Bible or God with which they disagree.

Deliver me from fundamentalists of all stripes!

elaine · 08-16-09 9:04 pm

Humanism and Its Aspirations

Humanism and Its Aspirations, subtitled Humanist Manifesto III, a successor to the Humanist Manifesto of 1933, was published in 2003 by the AHA, which apparently wrote it by committee [1].

The new document is the successor to the previous ones, and the name Humanist Manifesto is the property of the American Humanist Association.

The newest one is deliberately much shorter, listing six primary beliefs, which echo themes from its predecessors:

Knowledge of the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational analysis. See empiricism.

Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of unguided evolutionary change.

Ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. See ethical naturalism.

Life’s fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals.

Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships.

Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness.

john8verse32 · 08-16-09 11:02 pm

God always gives fair warning before He punishes the wicked and invites them to repent and turn to Him and His Law.

hundreds of examples of Gods immediate murderous justice would seem to suggest otherwise:

quote:

Sometimes God burns people to death.

Like when they complain too much, burn incense without a license, dabble in astrology, or make God angry or jealous or something. And sometimes God burns people to identify a prophet or to identify himself, and sometimes for no reason at all.

And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. -- Leviticus 10:1-2

And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp." -- Numbers 11:1

And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense. -- Numbers 16:35

They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God ... For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. ... They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. -- Deuteronomy 32:21-24

Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them. -- Psalm 21:9

Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee. Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame. -- Isaiah 47:13-14

If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty. -- 2 Kings 1:10, 12

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; As the vine tree among the trees of the forest, which I have given to the fire for fuel, so will I give the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And I will set my face against them; they shall go out from one fire, and another fire shall devour them; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. -- Ezekiel 15:6-7

Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. -- Isaiah 24:6

And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire." -- Isaiah 33:12

I will cause an alarm of war to be heard in Rabbah of the Ammonites; and it shall be a desolate heap, and her daughters shall be burned with fire. -- Jeremiah 49:2

And God will burn most people forever in hell after they die.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." -- John 15:6

The Lord Jesus ... in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God ... who shall be punished with everlasting destruction. -- 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God ...he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone ... And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever. -- Revelation 14:10-11

The fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.-- Revelation 21:8
need more?

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_ … rning.html

billdljr · 08-18-09 10:45 am

Looks like some of the posters here are fully aligned with those who hate the God of the bible. Here is another text for those who call God murderous to seriously consider:

Matthew 10:25-31 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Regarding Christian fundamentalists

Even a very cursory reading of the gospels will tell us that the Lord Jesus Christ himself was a fundamentalist. To be delivered from him and his salvation would be sheer folly on the day of judgment. I realize that the idea of a final judgment is a tenet of fundamentalism but perhaps it is an idea to which one should give careful consideration. Will humanism save the humanist on the final day of judgment? Not according to the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. Perhaps He was a lunatic? I dont think so.

Here is another one of those texts which portray the God of the bible as murderous

Matthew 24:48-51 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Message edited by billdljr on August 18, 2009

tom_norris · 04-19-11 3:30 pm

Loot asked: Is Walter Veith a Seventh-day Adventist? If yes, why does he hide his religious affiliation?

Tom Norris replied:

Walter Veith is a SDA. In fact, he has a ministry that defends and promotes Traditional Seventh-day Adventism-- through a web site called Amazing Discoveries.

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/

http://www.walterveith.org/

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/webstore/ … n-national

http://genesisconflict.com/

“Amazing Discoveries” is a more contemporary version of Doug Batchelor’s “Amazing Facts.” Both sites teach the same incorrect doctrines, and both are dishonest SDA tools for Denominational propaganda and Gospel error. Both are working together to promote the many errors and myths of Traditional Adventism, such as the Investigative Judgment, Tithe, Old Covenant Sabbath keeping, and Ellen White as a prophet, etc.

http://www.amazingfacts.org/

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/Online-School

Here is Veith’s Bio, which is on his Face book page.

Walter Julius Veith (1949—) is a Seventh-day Adventist author and speaker known for his work in nutrition, creationism and Biblical exegesis He studied zoology at the University of Stellenbosch and obtained his doctorate in zoology from the University of Cape Town in 1979. He was professor and chair of the Department of Zoology at the University of Western Cape, South Africa.

His research field is nutritional physiology and his research concentrates on the effect of modern animal husbandry on the incidence of disease transferral to man, as well as degenerative diseases caused by incorrect nutrition and particularly diseases such as osteoporosis, arthritis and cancer. He is also concerned about antibiotic-resistant bacteria, which are causing food poisoning epidemics around the world. He was honored with the Royal Society London Grant for the Reconstruction and Development Program (RDP) to establish a research climate in post-apartheid South Africa.

Veith is now a firm believer in creationism and speaks internationally on this and other topics. He has undertaken extensive tours in Europe, Africa and North America, and has written a number of books on the above topics. He is the keynote speaker of Amazing Discoveries, a non-profit ministry based in British Columbia, Canada.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Walter-Ve … 1138781978

SDA’s Dishonest

Why do the SDA’s try so hard to hide their identity?

Answer: The SDA’s have so many critics, including millions of angry, former members, that they are embarrassed to announce their identity and goals to the public. They know that many are upset with their doctrines, practices, and policies, and that the web contains legions of anti-SDA web sites.

The SDA’s have upset so many, that they try to hide their identity long enough for their “Message” to indoctrinate the unsuspecting. This is what “Amazing Discoveries” and Amazing Facts” are all about. They are dishonest marketing and propaganda enterprises for the SDA church. There is no search for truth taking place with any of the many Adventists apologists. They are just pretending to care about Gospel truth, but in fact, they are wolves in sheep’s clothing, cunningly indoctrinating people to embrace their corrupt religious organization that refuses to confess its many errors and repent.

But it is not working in the US. Educated people are not joining the SDA church because it has too many strange and false doctrines, many of which have been denied by SDA scholars, like Dr. Ford. Millions have also rejected the IJ and other errors. So the SDA’s are wasting their money trying to grow in America. Unless they change their bad attitudes and repent for their many false doctrines, they will remain irrelevant, continuing to self-destruct.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … church.htm

In spite of spending millions of dollars ever year on Public Relations and Propaganda, the Adventist Community in North America is confused, divided, and dying. In fact, there are far more former SDA’s not attending church on the 7th day, than those who support the church. Which means that the majority of Adventists have correctly repudiated much of what the Denomination teaches.

Rather than face up to reality and honestly address their many errors, the SDA leaders pretend they have no false doctrine, even as they hide their true identity whenever they try to gain new members. The NT does not teach that any church in Laodicea is fully correct and without error, nor does it allow such dishonest tricks as the SDA’s play. Shame on the SDA’s, they have gone corrupt for all to see.

The Gospel is not to be promoted with tricks or deception. But yet the SDA’s have become expert at such dishonest tactics. Amazing Facts has been doing this for years, and so too many other SDA web sites that have proliferated online. This is the SDA way. They are full of arrogant double-talk and cultic delusion and no one should think otherwise. Pity. They could have done much better.

Here is a typical reaction from those who do not appreciate this dishonest SDA practice:

Urgent warning about Seventh Day Adventists (SDA) Evengelistic drive 2010 at the Mosaic Theatre in Randburg from 10 November to 4 December 2010: AMAZING DISCOVERIES 2010.

The Seventh Day Adventist church currently has adverts on TV (SABC) and Radio (702) regarding a FREE presentation at the Mosaic Theatre on Egypt, Jews and Palestine, the anti-Christ, the universe, etc., and is being promoted as AMAZING DISCOVERIES. They just don’t STATE UPFRONT that this is an evangelistic outreach from the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

Beware of Amazing Discoveries: it is a website of the Seventh Day Adventists and these FREE “presentations” are part of their 2010 Evangelistic Drive by John Carter.

Professor Walter J. Veith (from the University of the Western Cape) has been their jewel in their crown for many years. He is seemingly very credible in teaching the Bible, the end times and exposing the Roman Catholic Church. But he is a deceiver because he states that the Roman Catholic Church changed the Sabbath Day from Saturday to Sunday, completely ignoring the Word of God in the book of Acts and how the apostles met on the first day of the week, the day of Jesus’ resurrection. The Lord Jesus Christ is our Sabbath.

http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/ … nov-4-dec/

See also:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20 … eretic.htm

http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falseteac … rveith.htm

http://herrensbud.blogspot.com/2010/02/ … ntist.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuKjzyYry-w

http://www.discerningtheworld.com/categ … adventist/

I hope this information answers your question about Walter Veith. It is sad that the SDA’s are so corrupt and disliked that they have to hide their name when they try to evangelize. Such behavior is obviously dishonest and wrong.

Luke 11:33 “No one, after lighting a lamp, puts it away in a cellar nor under a basket, but on the lampstand, so that those who enter may see the light.

Luke 8:17 “For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light.

Rather than hide, the SDA’s, should repent and correct their many false doctrines. Then they would not need to be embarrassed about what they teach. Those that proclaim the Gospel correctly have no need to hide.

2Cor. 4:2 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

2Cor. 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

2Cor. 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Shame on the SDA’s. Shame on all those not honest with the Word.

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 04-19-11 11:40 pm

Tom on you a member in good standing. If so what does your Pastor think of you take on things, eh??? Shouldn't you be honest with AllExperts.com that what you say is not what is representative of an SDA? If I had that much hatred toward a group of people, I don't think I could claim to be representative of one.

Last edited by bob_2 (04-19-11 11:44 pm)

tom_norris · 04-20-11 11:47 am

Bob2 asked: Tom are you a member in good standing. If so what does your Pastor think of you take on things, eh???

Tom said: How can any SDA be in good standing with the hierarchy if they don’t pay tithe and refuse to support what is taught? So I would hope that I am not in good standing.

Besides, don’t you know that the church has computerized files on the members? They know exactly what Tom Norris is saying, even as they are watching this site right now.

Furthermore, there was a time when I discussed theology with the Pastors, even to the extent of persuading one to invite Dr. Ford to speak at Capitol Memorial. But that was many years ago.

No pastor today can deal with the issues, nor do they want to. There is no honesty or freedom to study doctrine in the SDA church, which explains why the Gospel is also not there.

Bob 2 said: Shouldn't you be honest with AllExperts.com that what you say is not what is representative of an SDA? If I had that much hatred toward a group of people, I don't think I could claim to be representative of one.

Tom said: Why would anyone think that I speak for the hierarchy? I have made it very clear that the SDA church is corrupt and full of false doctrine, and that it needs major reform and re-organization.

Thus I am a public critic of the Denomination, even though I support the fundamentals of the Advent Movement, including the point that only the 7th day can be the correct Sabbath for the church.

I find it strange that anyone would think that I speak on behalf of the SDA church, which I strongly condemn.

tom_norris · 05-20-11 4:41 pm

Sirje said: Tom, I have a few comments on your comments:
You said that "Miller never sold his farm and didn't give a specific date for Christ's return, only a time range of months."

I don't care a hoot about what Miller did or didn't do. Eventually Miller bolted - fine. That left the few that did sell their farms or at least didn't work them in an expectation of the Second coming.

Tom said: First, Miller “never bolted.” He continued to support the development of the post disappointment Advent Movement, now led by the younger Himes.

While Miller admitted that something was obviously wrong with his prophetic calculations, he never regretted or repudiated his controversial doctrine of the pre-millennial 2nd Coming of Christ as the Judgment Day. This is because he was correct,- except for the date.

It is time for all to admit this fact of church history. Miller was far more correct than he was wrong. Which is why EVERY denomination today now follows Millers pre-millennial view of the 2nd Coming. Why? Because he was correct. This is what the Bible teaches, even though no one understood such eschatology in the early 1800’s.

Today, Miller’s views are the norm, even as all would laugh if some church started preaching that the 1,000 years of millennial peace was about to start. In Miller’s day they all believed such postmillennial eschatology, --until Miller and the Advent Movement made some much needed corrections.

So what is the point of bashing the historic Adventists? They have made a great contribution to the understanding of modern eschatology. Who can afford to pass up any truth? All that make useful and correct doctrinal contributions to the church should be praised for their efforts, regardless of their errors along the way.

Sirje said: This was the group that was thought of as abandoning the TRUTH, when they left the movement in disappointment. I don't blame them.

Tom said: Like I said, Miller never abandoned his controversial view, (for that time), that the 2nd Coming was the pre-millennial Judgment day and the end of the world. He only conceded his view of the 2300 days wrong. Not his doctrine about the 2nd Coming.

Second, those that went on to become the SDA’s never abandoned Adventism either. They actually defended Miller’s view of the 2,300 days, changing the end event, not the chronology.

So I don’t know what group you are referring to, or what point you are trying to make?

Sirje said: The apocalyptic fervor was real and a factor in this interpretation of the Bible and the final days. This happens in every age. We read present conditions into Bible predictions all the time.

Tom said: Jesus teaches his followers to pray for the 2nd Coming. Thus it is normal and correct for those of every Christian age to look at world events and see the coming Judgment and the end of the world.

Luke 11:2 He said to them, “When you pray, say:
‘Father, hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.

Thus eschatology is meant to break into the present at any moment. This is the way eschatology is designed to work. The end appears near in every age. Don’t think this is a mistake. Rather, it is the Gospel plan of God to keep sinners alert and ready for the 2nd Coming.

Matt. 24:42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

2Pet. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be 2burned up.

2Pet. 3:11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

2Pet. 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

God knows exactly when the end will come. But he hides it from all mankind, even from Jesus. Why? So that all can remain alert, expectant and looking for the 2nd Coming in every age.

Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?”

Acts 1:7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;

Matt. 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Matt. 24:37 “For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

Matt. 24:38 “For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

Matt. 24:39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

While I personally believe I could live to see the end of the world before I die, it may not come for hundreds of years. We just can’t know; so we must be always ready for the end without knowing for certain.

Sirje said: There's been enough time to see that this was a mistake but SDA church history still upholds these interpretations, giving them new legitimacy, and making excuses why God revealed thus and such then but did it for some good reason even though it was wrong. That's nonsense.

Tom said: While the Advent Movement made a great and embarrassing mistake about the DATE of the 2nd Coming, they were in fact CORRECT about the doctrine of the 2nd Coming- when all others were wrong.

Adventism was founded on NT truth about the 2nd Coming as the pre-millennial Judgment Day and the end of the world.

So Adventism was not a mistake, but a necessary correction for the church. There is much truth in the Advent movement and it is a great mistake to focus only on their errors, dismissing their contributions.

Furthermore, the apostolic church was founded on great error and cowardice. All the apostles misunderstood the Gospel and all ran away from Jesus and the Cross. But yet, the church emerged out of all this error and changed the world. Error does not mean there is no truth close by; truth is always surrounded by error on all sides.

So the SDA’s were wrong about the date of the 2nd Coming? So what? They were not wrong about their basic doctrine of the 2nd Coming, nor were they wrong to focus on eschatology and the Three Angels Messages.

This idea that Miller’s views were totally wrong and worthless is utter nonsense and myth. Miller was essentially correct about the doctrine of the 2nd Coming, while all others were dead wrong. Miller corrected the mistakes of his day, even though organized religion did not appreciate his views at the time. Regardless, Miller changed the eschatological platform for all denominations to this very day. This is an irrefutable fact.

So the critics need to stop revising history and stop trying to pretend there was nothing true or worthwhile associated with the Advent Movement. Miller and his movement forever changed, for the better, how the church viewed eschatology.

However, regardless how much truth Miller discovered, there is no excuse for the SDA’s to have become legalists in the 19th century, or to have developed the fraud of Traditional Adventism in the 20th century. This is very wrong and must be repudiated. This is why there must be Adventist Reform.

“New Covenant Adventism” must be embraced, developed, and promoted, instead of propping up the dying, corrupt, Old Covenant version of Traditional Adventism.

Don’t you agree?

Sirje said: Truth is progressive, but only in the way it is applied to current life norms and even personal applications. The basic truth stands through time. The Gospel is still the Gospel - which may be applied differently in every age, but it does not change to include all manner of extras. That was made pretty clear by Paul.

Tom said: Miller’s view of the Second Coming is a correct part of the historical Gospel. He should be praised for understanding that Jesus does not teach a postmillennial 2nd Coming, and for standing up to the eschatological errors of his day.

Miller’s view of the 2nd Coming as the pre-millennial Day of Judgment is ancient Gospel Truth, which had been replaced with the false doctrines of post millennialism. He should be praised for exposing the eschatology of his day as very wrong, and for recovering the correct NT view of the 2nd Coming.

Moreover, neither the world, nor the church, is going to go on forever. The end for both will come. Thus, at the end of time, the church will need to be alert and focus on Gospel eschatology. And so they will. However, this is not to be viewed as an “extra” to the original Gospel. Eschatology has always been part of the Gospel teachings of Christ and his apostles. Even the Lord’s Prayer features the 2nd Coming.

Luke 12:32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.

Luke 12:33 “Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys.

Luke 12:34 “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Luke 12:35 “Be dressed in readiness, and keep your lamps lit.

Luke 12:36 “Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks.

Luke 12:37 “Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them.

Luke 12:38 “Whether he comes in the second watch, or even in the 2third, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves.

Luke 12:39 “But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have allowed his house to be broken into.

Luke 12:40 “You too, be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour that you do not expect.”

Sirje said: When Jesus said He was sending the HS to lead us into all truth he did not mean the Gospel was going to be saying something else in the future. Ask the average SDA what is meant by the Gospel and you will get everything from soup to nuts literally when the health message is included.

Tom said: First, no one in the Laodicean Church, including the befuddled SDA’s, understands the law or the Gospel correctly. This is why no denomination today has a correct doctrine of the Sabbath, much less a credible view of eschatology or anything else. And why all are judged naked and blind in the Pre-Advent Judgment of the Laodicean church.

Second, the Gospel can never be changed. This is why the Sabbath doctrine is so important and telling. Those who are serious about following the genuine Gospel teachings of Jesus, will also understand and embrace his Reformed, 7th day Gospel Sabbath.

John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Those who embrace Sunday as the Lord’s Day, or the 7th day “Schoolmaster” Sabbath of the SDA’s, are proving that they do not follow the teaching of Jesus as they profess. They forget that Jesus was a Jew, and that the church was 100% Jewish for some time. They forget that Jesus REFORMED the 7th day Sabbath for the church, even as he removed any guilt associated with working the 4th Commandment.

But the Spirit has not forgotten anything about the Gospel Story. Its’ mission is to help us understand the truths contained in the NT.

Only the 7th day Gospel Sabbath is part of the teachings of Christ. All other Sabbath doctrines are not only wrong, but also associated with a false and useless version of the Gospel Story. This is what the Spirit is saying.

Third: While the Adventist critics need to understand that Miller’s fundamental Gospel eschatology was necessary, important, and correct, the Adventists Community needs to better understand their own history and doctrinal development. There is no excuse for so much myth and error to have overwhelmed the SDA church, and thus it is time for the Adventists to repent and understand the difference between facts and myths, truth and error.

The paradigm of the Three Angels Messages has yet to be properly understood and embraced by the modern SDA Community, even though the Adventists claim to have faithfully represented this theology.

But the SDA’s have done no such thing. In fact, they have repudiated Miller’s fundamental theology about the Gospel and the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message, even as they have misunderstood the following two messages, and dismissed the 4th as of no consequence. Shame on the SDA’s!

So the SDA’s are guilty of misunderstanding the history and theology of The Advent Movement, even as they have repudiated the Gospel and ignored the Fundamentals and the Pioneers at every turn. They have been so dishonest and legalistic over the years that they have no idea what truth even means. They must stop pretending and repent, or they are doomed.

Sirje said: SDA’s may have found profound truth in the midst of profound error. Why sift through all this SDA irrelevancy to find the bits of profound truth when it’s all there in the Bible for the taking.

Tom said: While there were many Christian Movements and denominations in Protestant history, most all promoting some necessary facet of truth, the Advent Movement is the first one established in America. So not only was it a cutting edge eschatological Movement, it was also a uniquely American denomination whose basic ideas have not been improved on by others.

(The Mormons were established earlier, but they are not a Protestant denomination.)

The search for truth is not easy. Why? Because truth is always hidden, covered up with all manner of tradition, myth, diversion, and error. Truth is always close to error, so much so that many cannot tell the difference between the two.

Every Gospel reformer, starting with Jesus, had to battle against many false traditions and errors of the corrupt religious leaders, and so it goes today. Why not criticize Jesus for “sifting through so much Jewish irrelevancy and error.”

Why did he not start something new and fresh? Because there was, and still is, great truth within Judaism. And so too Adventism and many other religions such as Lutheranism, etc.

Because Adventism deals with eschatology, its contribution becomes more important and relevant as the end draws near. But it also has a responsibility to gather up all truth from past, making sure to present a correct Gospel to all.

While people understandably mock the SDA’s for their many errors and dishonest debating tactics, this is misleading because there is no church that is even close to promoting the correct Gospel, Sabbath, or Judgment. They are all full of worthless and wretched pretensions and much error. Thus few care about truth, and most are motivated to defend tradition and their own self-interest.

This “wretched” situation is what Jesus addresses in the true Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church, which is Rev 3: 14; not Dan 8: 14. This is why every denomination at the end of time is already judged to be wrong about the Gospel. And the SDA’s are no exception. All are guilty and all must repent and reform their false views.

There will be a Gospel Reformation in the Laodicean Church; it should start with the repentant SDA Community. Time will tell.

Sirje said: I'm sure the Catholics have included profound truth in their version of the Gospel but I don't see any SDA acknowledging that, when in fact, many of the current and historic SDA practices arise from the influence of the Catholic church on the formulation of the Bible and what is interpreted to be in it - the Trinity for one.

Tom said: You misunderstand; I am not defending the arrogance, stupidity, or false doctrines of the SDA’s. I am calling them to repentance and Gospel reform.

As for the RC theology, their Galatian Gospel is false; it is a doctrine that represents Peter and the Circumcision Party. This wicked theology was strongly condemned by Paul in Galatians and cannot be defended or excused by any Protestant.

However, the RC’s are correct, for example, to only use real wine in their sacraments. Here is a point where the RC’s are correct and the Abstinence minded SDA’s are dead wrong and very foolish.

However, while Catholic bashing was normative in 19th century America, when Adventism was developed, it makes little sense today. Why? Because every church in Laodicea, both Protestant and RC, has a false Christ, false Gospel, and false Sabbath. Jesus teaches that those who hold error have no right to try and teach others truth. So who has any right to bash anyone?

Luke 6:42 “…how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye?

You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.

At the end of time, a portion of the church will come to their senses and repent of their many false doctrines, organizing themselves around Gospel truth. That group has not emerged as yet, and neither has this final Advent Message. But it is not too far distant.

Although the SDA’s claimed to be the ones that would lead all others into the Loud Cry of Rev 18, they have turned out to be as bad and wretched as the Jews, RC’s, and all others. This is why there must be Adventist Reform. The status quo is wretched and worthless.

Sirje said: Being ready for the Second coming is talked about in the Bible but we can't be any more ready than to focus on the historic Gospel as presented by Christ.

Tom said: The “historic Gospel” includes eschatology. The great Tribulation is part of the Gospel Story. So too is the Judgment Day, which is the 2nd Coming of Christ. The church needs to understand these things.

But few today care about Gospel eschatology. Jesus teaches that most will not be ready; even as he warns all to be on the alert, ready to run...

2Tim. 3:1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.

Matt. 24:44 “For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Luke 21:36 “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Rather then complain that the SDA’s did not get things fully correct, it is time to thank them for what they got right, and make the necessary revisions and correction in order to understand 21st eschatology and finally get things right.

Sirje said: We have no idea what day or hour we breathe our last breath - that is the second coming for any of us. So yes, we should be ready but not with dates and charts, and throwing people out of the church for not believing in them. It's just plain silly.

Tom said: Personal eschatology is not to be confused with the corporate eschatology of the church. It is rather easy to make a chart of our demise because no lives past 100. But civilization goes on for thousands of years, which makes for very difficult chart making.

http://www.death-clock.org/

http://www.deathclock.com/

The church has a duty to understand eschatology and make the necessary preparations to survive the Tribulation. And so too every individual. But guess what? It is also getting easier to make a chart predicting the end of the world. Here are some:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/doomsd … id=9552375

http://www.thebulletin.org/content/doom … k/overview

http://www.thebulletin.org/content/doom … k/timeline

http://science.howstuffworks.com/enviro … -clock.htm

Luke 12:42 …the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time?

Luke 12:43 “Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.

Luke 12:44 “Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

Luke 12:45 “But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;

Luke 12:46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

As for the SDA’s throwing people out of the church for not supporting their dubious and confusing views, this is absurd. The SDA charts are so wrong and full of error, that they should not be taken seriously by anyone in the 21st century.

This arrogant view of the SDA’s, that they have 100% truth and no error, is laughable. It is cultic insanity for the delusional. Anyone who thinks this way has lost his or her ability to honestly reason and think. They are doomed. But Adventism will go forward, and so too the Gospel and the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.

Bob2 said: As one formerly called a Brinsmeadite, affecting my relationships in the SDA denomination, my job offers in the denomination, and eventually my looking outward confidently, not without some fear, to see what other denominations had to offer, I can appreciate what Sirje has just said. The SDA church has little to offer if they continue with inquisition like moves when we all don't agree with each other.

Tom said: Today, the SDA church features legions of false doctrine, manipulated church history, and corruption. They are so wrong about doctrine, that it boggles the mind to see them pretend that they have no error. It is stunning. The SDA’s are in the dark.

Unless they repent for the fraud of Traditional Adventism and correct the manipulated record in the White Estate, they are doomed to irrelevance and self-destruction. Others will rescue the Three Angels Messages and go on to develop and proclaim the 4th and last Adventist Message. This is how the Adventist Apocalyptic works.

Bob2 said: Tom, what difference does it make what is in that EGW vault at Andrews, and how I relate to that devotional writer that undereducated, and physically ill individual?

Tom said: First, Ellen White is much more than a “devotional” writer. She was the longest living of the founding Pioneers. Her experience, wisdom, and insight about the Advent Movement are priceless and irreplaceable. Anyone that ignores her as an eyewitness to the development of Adventism, will misunderstand both the Fundamentals and the history of Adventism.

Second, the Adventist Community deserves to know what the Pioneers actually taught, even as the Pioneers must be allowed to state their true positions. But how can anyone know such facts if the White Estate has been suppressing and manipulating the record all these years?

The Pioneers were much smarter than many assume, even as the modern leaders are far more stupid and dishonest than people ever imagined. Today, the Advent Movement needs to clearly understand the mind of Ellen White and the intent of Adventism. They need to know what she was really saying as opposed to what the White Estate has “claimed” for her.

At this point, the church has not been told the truth about 1844 or 1888, and thus they do not understand the very fundamentals that the Pioneers were defending and promoting. Unless this false history is corrected, the SDA’s will never promote anything but double-talk and schism.

Don said: Adventism, to continually be effective, must seek to have Jesus and His ministry central to their whole psyche. IMO, this is the goal of the church.

Tom said: Don, this kind of talk is just that; talk. What does it even mean?

Such language is blasphemy because the SDA church has no intention of following the genuine teachings of Jesus. They have developed their own false version of Christ, who turns out to be a great believer in the IJ as well as tithe and many other false things.

This false, SDA Christ also follows the Koran and embraces abstinence, even as he refuses to work on the Sabbath.

So sure, the SDA’s seek to place their false Christ in the “center” of their worthless ministry. Why not? This is the game that all denominations play. Too bad they won’t listen to the real Christ who calls them to repent.

Today, Adventism is divided, dysfunctional, and dying. So forget this idea that the SDA’s must do such and such “to continually be effective.” They are not effective at all today, nor have they been effective for many years. In fact, since Glacier View in 1980, they have degenerated into great division and schism, even as the dishonest leaders try to pretend all is well. All is not well with the Advent Movement and it serves no useful purpose to pretend.

So stop pretending that the “goal” of the SDA church is to think and act like Jesus. That is absurd. Jesus never paid tithe, nor did he ever instruct his apostles to teach the IJ or abstinence to the church. But yet, the SDA’s claim the doctrine of tithe to be “sacred,” even as they exile those who refuse to believe in the IJ. The SDA’s have made up their own version of Jesus, just like all the other worthless and wretched denominations in Laodicea.

Jesus never taught anyone the IJ. In fact, Jesus embraced the typical Jewish view that Dan 8: 14 was the basis for Chanukah. But yet, the SDA’s have made up their own views of Jewish history, even as they embrace a fictional judgment that Jesus never taught.

Is this how the SDA’s define how they follow Jesus? Since when is making up doctrine called “following Jesus.” Wow! The SDA’s have become like the silly Mormons. Making up whatever doctrines they want.

I could go on and on, citing one doctrine after another, like clean and unclean foods, and even the doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, to show that the SDA’s are the world’s greatest liars. They do not follow Jesus or his Gospel as they claim. Rather, they repudiate the Gospel at every opportunity, persecuting and exiling those who protest.

So the goal of the modern SDA church is to lie to the public and blaspheme 24/7. They will not admit to any error, nor will they repent. Thus we are witnessing the end of the 3rd Angels Message and the demise of the SDA Denomination. They will continue to self-destruct for all to see.

Renie said: I like Max Lacados little book, Its NOT about ME. In our Sabbath School classes, we spend way too much time examining our spiritual condition.

Tom said: This is because the SDA’s don’t know the Gospel. They teach that sanctification is part of the Gospel and part of their salvation. This is why they always focus on the law, the Old Covenant Sabbath, and their behavior. It is because they have the false Gospel of Peter as referenced in the book of Galatians. A false view of JBF, much like the SDA’s.

Listen to Ellen White, after the Gospel debate of 1888, and just before she was exiled from Battle Creek:

"The danger has been presented to me again and again of entertaining, as a people, false ideas of justification by faith. I have been shown for years that Satan would work in a special manner to confuse the mind on this point. The law of God has been largely dwelt upon and has been presented to congregations, almost as destitute of the knowledge of Jesus Christ and His relation to the law as was the offering of Cain."

"I have been shown that many have been kept from the faith because of the mixed, confused ideas of salvation, because the ministers have worked in a wrong manner to reach hearts. The point that has been urged upon my mind for years is the imputed righteousness of Christ."

"I have wondered that this matter was not made the subject of discourses in our churches throughout the land, when the matter has been kept so constantly urged upon me and I have made it the subject of nearly every discourse and talk that I have given to the people." (FW 18; 1890)

Unless the SDA’s tell the truth about 1888, and repent for their false Gospel. They are useless. The final Message of Rev 18 can only be proclaimed by those who correctly understand the Gospel. The SDA’s at this point in history are enemies of the Gospel. So how are they every going to be given the last Message of warning to the church?

Let everyone make sure they understand and embrace the genuine Gospel of the NT, which also includes the Reformed, active Sabbath of Christ.

Renie said: We dissect and examine our daily walk. Do we spend enough time with the Lord? Do we spend too much time watching TV or on our computers? How much time is enough time in Bible study and prayer? Is an hour enough? No, nothing is ever enough, it seems. We make it all about us and our performance!

Tom said: Legalists naturally focus on their behavior, including their “relationship” with God. This is the result of a false Gospel.

Until the SDA’s repent of their false view that our Sanctification must be examined in the IJ to see if we are “safe to save,” they are doomed. They are enemies of the Gospel, wolves in sheep’s clothing. There is no IJ.

No amount of past truth or good intentions from the SDA’s can excuse such a blatant disregard for the Gospel. Those that repudiate the Protestant Gospel, like the SDA’s with their IJ, must be repudiated by those that don’t.

As for Max L; you speak as if he understands the Gospel better than the SDA’s. This is a false assumption. His ministry is also full of Gospel error and nonsense, even as he too promotes the fraud of tithe and impossible eschatology.

Max L teaches the pre-trib rapture, the Sunday Sabbath, and tithe paying, just for starters. That’s enough error to contaminate and ruin the Gospel, making it worthless.

Beware the smooth talking Laodiceans, they think they are so smart, well groomed, and on good terms with Heaven, when none of these assumptions are true.

Their Gospel is wretched and wrong, which means they are unsaved and stark naked.

Heaven is not pleased and thus Jesus tells them to repent and reform or be thrown out of the Kingdom of God.

So far no Laodicean denominations have repented. And the ones that need to go first, like the SDA’s, don’t think they have any error or false doctrines.

Let all the sheep be very careful. Beware the many errors that abound from ALL denominations and churches.

Why would any Christian listen to someone with so much error? What is the point? Sheep are not to be led by wolves. The wolves like it, but it will not end well for the sheep.

Renie said: Max says its NOT about us, it’s about God and His love. John 14: 35 sums it up for me. They will know you are my disciples if you love one another.

Tom said: So a Pastor has stated, “It’s about God and his love.” So what? Such a statement means nothing and proves nothing. Every denomination can make such a statement, even the crazy Mormons. However, such bumper sticker theology is worthless drivel designed to sell books. Beware such trite theology.

Remember, Max L, is a typical Laodicean pastor who makes his living from religion. Just like the SDA apologists that promote their garbage. They are all doing it for money. There is no serious attempt to find truth from any of these hucksters, but rather, to keep the tithe coming in and sell more books and DVD’s, etc.

In other words, this is all part of the Laodicean delusion that has been brought to view and condemned by Christ in Rev 3:14.

Max L is very confused about the Gospel teaching of Christ, like all Laodiceans. Why would anyone pay attention to someone who is so clearly wrong about Gospel doctrine?

For example, he fully supports the fraud of tithe, claiming that we “give for our own sake.” And that this doctrine teaches us to “always put God first.” Such self-serving double-talk sounds just like the SDA excuses for this false doctrine.

Listen to this confused Pastor:

Give For Your Own Sake

By Max Lucado

You don't give for God's sake. You give for your sake. "The purpose of tithing is to teach you to always put God first in your lives" (Deut. 14:23 TLB).

How does tithing teach you? Consider the simple act of writing a check for the offering. First you enter the date. Already you are reminded that you are a time-bound creature and every possession you have will rust or burn. Best to give it while you can.

Then you enter the name of the one to whom you are giving the money. If the bank would cash it, you'd write God. But they won't, so you write the name of the church or group that has earned your trust.
Next comes the amount. Ahhh, the moment of truth. You're more than a person with a checkbook. You're David, placing a stone in the sling. You're Peter, one foot on the boat, one foot on the lake. You're a little boy in a big crowd. A picnic lunch is all the Teacher needs, but it's all you have.

What will you do?

Sling the stone?

Take the step?

Give the meal?

Careful now, don't move too quickly. You aren't just entering an amount ... you are making a confession. A confession that God owns it all anyway.
And then the line in the lower left-hand corner on which you write what the check is for. Hard to know what to put. It's for light bills and literature. A little bit of outreach. A little bit of salary.

Better yet, it's partial payment for what the church has done to help you raise your family ... keep your own priorities sorted out . . . tune you in to his ever-nearness.

Or, perhaps, best yet, it's for you. For though the gift is to God, the benefit is for you. It's a moment for you to clip yet another strand from the rope of earth so that when he returns you won't be tied up.

http://www.plr.org/dynamic.html?dynID=703
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

While Max claims that tithing is a “confession that God owns it all anyway;” it is really a badge of false doctrine for all to see. His position on tithe proves that he does not understand the law or the Gospel correctly. And thus he is unfit to help others. But no surprise here, this is the way of all the Laodiceans. What was once a 1st century prophecy is now fulfilled. The last church is the worst church. It is so bad that it fails to understand the Gospel, or how close it is to the Judgment Day.

Any Pastor, SDA or otherwise, that promote and practices tithe paying, has proven that they do not understand the Gospel or the teachings of Jesus. They should not be trusted about any doctrine. They are false teachers. Sorry.

Renie said: If I try to follow that commandment, I won’t have much time to focus on myself.

Tom said: There is no such “commandment” as advertised. So no need to follow the blind, unless you also want to fall into the same confused ditch.

You need to follow what Christ teaches directly. No need to go to wolves in sheep’s clothing for truth. Go to the NT DIRECTLY and find the answers. Those that are doctrinally blind cannot lead anyone to truth anyway. They just pretend, and many follow.

Sirje said: Hi Irene, BINGO! That is the trouble with much of Adventism. Its a continual self-examination project where the Bible is used for one of two purposes - to find out what else I need to do to qualify for salvation; and, proof texting to convince people that our theology is right.

Tom said: The trouble with Adventism is that the leaders are dishonest, legalistic, and incompetent. They have rejected the Gospel and the fundamentals of the Three Angels Messages. It’s a pretty simple diagnosis.

As for this obsession with self. This is the way of all religion. Especially those that do not embrace the Gospel correctly. Thus Judaism and the RC’s are full of self-examination and guilt. And so too most others. The cure for all this confusion is to understand the Gospel correctly.

Does the NT say we should not examine ourselves? Or does this bumper sticker theology fall flat?

1Cor. 11:28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

2Cor. 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you — unless indeed you fail the test?

Gal. 6:4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.

1Th. 5:21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

Woops! It looks like the NT is not against a little self-examination?

Sirje said: I'm reading a really good book that was mentioned on the Spectrum website; The Blue Parakeet by Scot McKnight. He gives several ways not to read the Bible, all of which my SDA background focused on - he calls them shortcuts to reading the Bible.

Tom said: The blue parakeet is a metaphor for new and strange doctrine. The Reformed, 7th day Sabbath, as advocated by Adventist Reform, is just such a doctrine.

In Miller’s day, the blue parakeet would have been the doctrine of the pre-millennial 2nd Coming. In fact, when that doctrinal bird flew into the park, it was attacked by all the other birds. But now all have accepted this new and different view.

The Blue Parakeet Metaphor 

The greatest puzzle to someone reading the Blue Parakeet is wondering what parakeets have to do with the Bible.
You have to wait until page 23 to find out (unless you are lucky enough to read my blog).

McKnight and his wife, Kris, are bird watchers. In 2007 he saw in his backyard a flash of avian blue and tried to get a closer look. It wasn’t a bluebird or a bluejay. Finally, he determined it was a blue parakeet, an escaped pet.

Fascinated, he watched as this once-domesticated bird mixed and mingled at the feeder with the wild birds. They were terrified of the parakeet.
In coming days, he saw the blue parakeet repeatedly. The sparrows and other birds gradually accepted him more and more. Eventually they ignored him and came to the feeder like usual.

That blue parakeet, McKnight tells us, is a metaphor for our own discovery of the scriptures. We’ve all read them . . . the verses that cause us to squirm. “Behold, they are like stubble, the fire consumes them,” says Isaiah 47:14, and we try not to think too literally of people burning alive. “Not one of you can be my disciple if he does not renounce all his own possessions,” says Jesus in Luke 14:33 and we immediately dismiss a literal interpretation.

At first, the blue parakeets disturb us. “Be perfect,” says Jesus (Matt. 5:20) and James extols “pure and undefiled religion,” (Jas. 1:27), and at first, we allow the discomfort to trouble us. We start out like the wild birds encountering the parakeet.

But in time we “cage and tame” the blue parakeets, says McKnight. We fail to allow them to challenge us. We adapt and adopt. We pick and choose. And we do a lot of picking and choosing.

The point is not that we should not pick and choose. We do have to do that. The point of McKnight’s book is to give some direction about how to pick and choose wisely. His answer is to pick and choose by reading the Bible as a story, as a wiki-story in fact.

http://derek4messiah.wordpress.com/2009 … -parakeet/

This work has its critics:

Discerning Reader Editorial Review. Reviewed 11/12/2008 by Trevin Wax.

Not Recommended. McKnight does a better job of asking questions than he does answering them. Scot McKnight’s newest book is about how we should read the Bible.

In The Blue Parakeet: Rethinking How You Read the Bible (Zondervan, 2008), Scot makes some bold assertions intended to challenge our assumptions….

But my biggest hesitation regarding The Blue Parakeet is the way that ”authority” is described as an inferior “framing principle” for the way we look at the Bible. Scot believes that speaking of the Bible primarily in terms of authority fosters a relationship with a book instead of a relationship with the Author (84).
I agree that framing the Bible merely in terms of authority and submission might not be personal enough. I recognize the need to incorporate a more relational approach.

Scot is trying to help people avoid treating the Bible as a rulebook in order to help them see it as God’s story that invites us into relationship with God.
But I believe Scot’s aversion to authority is not nuanced enough. He writes as if authority is opposed to love, trust and conversation. His view of authority is clearly negative, and therefore, he writes as if these different principles cannot coexist. My question is this: Why can’t love come through authority? For all of Scot’s (right) emphasis on the kingdom, where is God’s kingly rule?

http://www.discerningreader.com/book-re … e-parakeet

Tom said: I agree with a number of reviewers that he has gone too far to say that the Bible should not be considered as authority for doctrine. (see part III). This is absurd and a clear error. Many have reached this same conclusion:

The Bible should be a delight rather than a duty, and here McKnight is fundamentally right. And yet he goes a step too far in saying that people "never need to speak of the Bible as their authority nor do they speak of their submission to the Bible" (p. 93). Such a statement does not fit with the repeated phrase "it is written" in the NT. The scripture is appealed to as an authority; it is the definitive word in all matters of faith and practice. Naturally obedience should be a delight, and yet obedience is still demanded.

http://www.cbmw.org/Blog/Posts/A-Review … eet-Part-I

Sirje said: It goes something like this: Looking for morsels of law - which makes us intoxicated with our own moral superiority and more concerned with being right than being good. PLUS, making us judgmental, of course.

Tom said: There is no question that the modern SDA’s do not understand how to read or study the Bible. But neither do any others in Laodicea. Which is why no denomination has a correct, NT based doctrine of the Sabbath.

Not one!

Why?

Because tradition drives their interpretations of the Word. So they all claim to see the proof for their various doctrines in the Bible, even though it is often not there.

But guess what? Organized religion does not like anyone to point out their hermeneutical or doctrinal errors. And those that do, like Jesus and the apostles, or Luther, risk their lives. They are viewed as troublemakers by those who are not being honest with the Word.

This same thing took place with Dr. Ford. He understood how to read and study the Bible correctly, and thus he could reach proper and credible Gospel conclusions. However, this challenged the legalistic leaders who did not understand proper hermeneutics, and who had embraced myths and a false Gospel.

So yes, the SDA’s don’t know how to read the Bible, nor do the leaders want them to learn. That’s why they sent Dr. Ford away. They didn’t want the Adventist Community to learn how to understand the Bible correctly because it would end their Old Covenant, tithe paying, IJ loving, anti-Gospel stranglehold on the Adventist church.

However, the Gospel cannot be hidden in the 21st century. No denomination can keep their members from finding out how to read the Bible correctly and understand church history. It is only a matter of time. The days of many double-talking denominations are numbered, even as knowledge of the Gospel will increase and prevail.

Sirje said: Looking for mirrors and inkblots - where we project onto the Bible what we want to see. Instead of entering into the story, we manipulate the story so it enters into our story.

Tom said: Without correct hermeneutics, anyone can easily manipulate the Bible to support their view. This is why there is the science of hermeneutics. To make sure that the historical context and the intent of the author is understood.

Today, the modern SDA’s have a very dishonest hermeneutic, one that allows them to fabricate numerous delusions such as tithe, the IJ, and OC Sabbath keeping, etc. And so too do all other denominations and cults. This is wrong. It is dishonest and unprofessional (for those who work in the field of religion and theology).

Sirje said: Looking for puzzle pieces to make a whole picture. The problem with this is that, just like the puzzles we buy, we already have the picture were looking to piece together and these people know what the Bible says before they open it up because they’ve already puzzled it together. This method ignores some of the pieces because they don’t fit into our preconceived picture.

Tom said: For those that seek Eternal Life, the object is to find truth. It is truth that should matter most, not our pre-conceived positions.

Religion is learned. Children are indoctrinated into the religion of their parents. But few, if any, were taught to search for truth in the Word or in other denominations, much less to focus on eschatology, trying to figure out how the end will come. Most are also indoctrinated to believe their views are superior to others.

Organized religion today cares little for truth, or eschatology; the Laodicean church is a business, with budgets, employees, salaries, programs, building funds, and schools, and printing presses, etc, etc. It’s not really about Jesus teachings, or Eternal Life. It should be, but it is not. Which is why the real Pre-Advent Judgment of the Church finds all organized churches in the last days to be doctrinally wretched, blind, and naked.

So we agree.

Don said: Tom, as I have read some of your posts, it seems to me that what you call Adventism has very little to do with historic Seventh-day Adventist life.

Tom said: Not true. Only the SDA’s went on to promote the Three Angels Messages, which featured the 7th day Sabbath and an attempt to better define last day events. This is the same path as Adventist Reform.

Adventist Reform embraces the search for truth and supports all 7 pillars in the Three Angels Messages, and so too does Dr. Ford.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -FAITH.htm

The fact that my Gospel view of the Sabbath is somewhat different from the legalistic Battle Creek and Takoma Park views, is beside the point. It is still the 7th day Sabbath.

In fact, the Reformed Sabbath is the most developed, credible, and Gospel friendly view of the Lord’s Day than any other view today. It represents the culmination of Sabbath Reform, even as it will one day become present truth for the repentant Laodicean church, becoming a featured doctrine under the 4th Angels Message.

However, you are correct to understand that the Gospel Sabbath being advocated by Tom Norris is a very different doctrine from the Old Covenant, “Schoolmaster Sabbath” of my SDA youth in Takoma Park. That was a very law based, punitive, and harsh view of the Sabbath. I much prefer the active, non-judgmental, Gospel friendly Sabbath of the NT, the one for which Jesus died.

Don said: If I am not mistaken, the date of 1844 has no prophetic relevance in your Adventist Reform theology.
Thus, the Sanctuary in connection with the 2300 days and the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary don’t seem to be part of Adventist Reform, either.

Tom said: The general date of “1844” has great historic relevance because it was publically associated with the Advent Movement and Miller’s new doctrine about the pre-millennial 2nd Coming as the Day of Judgment.

1844 is used because that is the famous date when the movement self-destructed due to the “great disappointment” of the fall of 1844.

While there is no such doctrine as the IJ, much less any judgment starting in 1844, there was an Advent Movement that emerged at this time to champion the Second Coming as Protestant doctrine. So here is the connection to Rev 14 and the start of the Three Angels Messages.

1844 can be said to be the fulfillment of that prophecy. No one but the Adventists have claimed to fulfill the Three Angels Messages, and thus they win by default, as well as by the historical record.

Thus, Miller’s discovery of the 1st Angels Message, and the subsequent formation of the Advent Movement represents the fulfillment of prophecy; the start of the Three Angels Messages. The fact that the 2300 days was full of error is beside the point. The Advent Movement emerged during this time period to fulfill Rev 14: 7 and start an eschatological movement that would focus on the 2nd Coming.

Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;

Rev. 14:7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

Thus it was Miller’s preaching about the 2nd Coming as the “Judgment hour” that fulfilled the 1st Angels Message. This is how all the Pioneers viewed Adventist history and eschatology.

While Adventist Reform also embraces the 2nd Coming as the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message, it rejects this popular myth from Traditional Adventism that claims the IJ is the Judgment pillar in Historic Adventism. This is an absurd and impossible position that cannot be supported.

The church had no authority to change church history at Glacier View in order to try and prove Dr. Ford wrong. He was not wrong. There is no such pillar as the IJ, and neither Ellen White, nor any other 19th century SDA, ever said otherwise.

Adventism is a 19th century movement of prophecy. Too bad that the modern SDA’s no longer understand Adventist history or prophecy correctly or honestly.

What a great mistake it was to slander those, like Dr. Ford, who correctly understood how to explain and defend the Adventist Apocalyptic. The leaders were so intent to protect their false and legalistic views, that they failed to understand that Dr. Ford was not attacking historic Adventism, but trying to defend and support it in a credible, historical manner.

The incompetent leaders misunderstood and mis-characterized his view of the apotelesmatic principle, and well as what he was saying about the Sanctuary and the IJ, and most everything else. But time and the facts have proven Dr. Ford’s use of both hermeneutics and sources correct. This is why the SDA’s must repent or be lost.

Dr. Ford & Dan 8:14

The TSDA’s attacked Ford’s position about the meaning of Dan 8: 14. Ford correctly said that it was about Antiochus, even as he acknowledged there could be additional fulfillments downstream. But the leaders wanted it to be primarily about the IJ, and thus they repudiated the Protestant Hermeneutic in order to support their false and legalistic views.

The Apotelesmatic Principle

Of the primary application of Daniel 8:14 Ford says that “only Antiochus Epiphanes fulfills the chief specifications of Daniel’s little born, and the vile person of Daniel 11. All other fulfillments, such as pagan and papal Rome, are fulfillments in principle rather than in detail.”87

“Antiochus did fulfill the little horn prophecy, but he did not fill it full”:88 “Every era of revival of the truths symbolized in the sanctuary may claim to be a fulfillment of Dan. 8:14.”89

“Dan. 8:14 had its primary application to the times of Antiochus Epiphanes.”90 “The Adventist application of Dan. 8:14 to 1844 was an application in principle, an apotelesmatic fulfillment—a legitimate but not an exhaustive application.”91

“1844 thus becomes a providential re-interpretation and an apotelesmatic fulfillment, rather than the primary intention of the apocalyptic passage.”92 “1844 and the Advent movement are indeed a fulfillment of Dan. 8:14, an apotelesmatic fulfillment in the same sense that A.D. 70 was a fulfillment of Matt. 24, and John the Baptist of Mal. 4:5, 6; and Pentecost of Joel 2:28.”93

http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … 2part6.cfm

Dr. Ford and Tom Norris support the Advent Movement. All Three Angels Messages, plus the 4th that still must be developed. But they do not embrace the dishonest double talk or legalism of Traditional Takoma Park Adventism.

The IJ was NEVER a pillar in the Three Angels Messages, much less the fulfillment of Dan 8:14 or Rev 14:7. The IJ represents great error and false history. Until Glacier View is reversed, the SDA’s will continue to self-destruct under the curse of God.

Don said: I suggest that Adventist Reform would call on all the Adventist pioneers, James and Ellen White and Joseph Bates included, to give up their support of 1844 and their support of the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary doctrine.

Tom said: First off, many of the present teachings of the SDA church have little or no support from the Pioneers.

For example; this popular idea that the IJ is the Judgment pillar in the 1st Angels Message would stun and shock them all. They would not have to “give up their support” for such a view because they NEVER took this view.

Nor did they think the “Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary” was the same doctrine as the IJ. They knew better. They wrote books about these points and thus there is no excuse for the church to get it so wrong today.

In other words, neither of the White’s or Bates would have disagreed with Dr. Ford at Glacier View. All of them knew that only the 2nd Coming was the great Judgment Pillar in Rev 14:7.

They would have all been shocked to see the 20th century SDA’s so confused at Glacier View as to replace the great pillar of the 2nd Coming, for which the Advent Movement and SDA church is named, with the teaching of the IJ.

Not only would they be shocked, they would have stopped Glacier View and defended Dr. Ford. Neither Ellen nor James White would have allowed this fatal revision to become official. Here is what Ellen would say:

"Let no one presume to move a pin or a foundation stone from the structure. Those who attempt to undermine the pillars of our faith are among those of whom the Bible says that "in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils." (Letter 87, 1905, pp. 2, 3; To Elder and Mrs. S. N. Haskell, February 25, 1905.)

Do you understand what Ellen White is saying? Do you understand that she would never allow anyone to change the original Judgment Pillar of the Second Coming into the IJ? She condemns any that have done this, even as she would applaud Dr. Ford for getting it right and telling the truth under persecution. He was the man that stood “firm” and defended the “established faith” of the Advent Movement, while the incompetent leaders embraced great error and fraud.

"I saw a company who stood well guarded and firm, giving no countenance to those who would unsettle the established faith of the body. God looked upon them with approbation. I was shown three steps-- the first, second, and third angels' messages.

“Said my accompanying angel, ‘Woe to him who shall move a block or stir a pin of these messages. The true understanding of these messages is of vital importance.’”

(Early Writings of Ellen G. White, 1858, also known as: Spiritual Gifts; and The Great Controversy, page 158, Chapter Title: A Firm Platform.)

This popular idea that the IJ is located in the 1st Angels message is an absurd and impossible hoax. It is pure myth, as well as historical and theological fraud. Dr. Ford understood this point and thus he refused to fall in line as the leaders demanded. He understood that Traditional Adventism was wrong, even when many thought he was in error.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … DAs-Dr.htm

The Pioneers also knew that the Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary doctrine was not the IJ, but only an unclear view of some unknown Pre Advent activity in heaven. While the IJ developed from this doctrine, later, it is not the same doctrine, and the Pioneers never said otherwise.

So Adventist Reform does not call for any SDA to “give up” any real doctrine, but rather, to tell the truth about the history and theological development of the church and follow the Gospel teachings of the NT at all times. It is time for the Adventist Community to stop pretending that myths are the same as historic facts.

It is time for the real pillars of the Three Angels Messages to be understood by the Adventist Community. Most of what is being taught now is cultic propaganda and historical fraud.

The SDA Community has been misled and deceived by their incompetent leaders who have been promoting a false and manipulated version of the Gospel and the Three Angels Messages all these years.

Adventist Reform fully supports Ellen White’s view of the Three Angels Messages. The modern SDA church does not.

http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … /part1.cfm

Don said: It would call on the Whites and Bates to quit teaching abstinence from alcohol. It would call on the Whites and Bates to denounce their support of the tithing principle.

Tom said: The 19th century Adventists made many mistakes, none of which should not be indulged. Error is error, and so too, false doctrine, regardless who embraces or promotes it. There “is no excuse” for SDA’s to think or act as if they have all possible truth, and no error.

Listen to Ellen White on this point:

There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation...

As we take up the study of God's word, we should do so with humble hearts. All selfishness, all love of originality, should be laid aside. Long-cherished opinions must not be regarded as infallible.

It was the unwillingness of the Jews to give up their long-established traditions that proved their ruin. They were determined not to see any flaw in their own opinions or in their expositions of the Scriptures; but however long men may have entertained certain views, if they are not clearly sustained by the written word, they should be discarded.

Those who sincerely desire truth will not be reluctant to lay open their positions for investigation and criticism, and will not be annoyed if their opinions and ideas are crossed. . . .

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. As long as we hold to our own ideas and opinions with determined persistency, we cannot have the unity for which Christ prayed…

Whenever the people of God are growing in grace, they will be constantly obtaining a clearer understanding of His word. They will discern new light and beauty in its sacred truths. This has been true in the history of the church in all ages, and thus it will continue to the end.

But as real spiritual life declines, it has ever been the tendency to cease to advance in the knowledge of the truth. Men rest satisfied with the light already received from God's word, and discourage any further investigation of the Scriptures. They become conservative, and seek to avoid discussion…

The Lord calls upon all who believe His word to awake out of sleep. Precious light has come, appropriate for this time. It is Bible truth, showing the perils that are right upon us. This light should lead us to a diligent study of the Scriptures, and a most critical examination of the positions which we hold.

God would have all the bearings and positions of truth thoroughly and perseveringly searched, with prayer and fasting.

Believers are not to rest in suppositions and ill-defined ideas of what constitutes truth. Their faith must be firmly founded upon the word of God, so that when the testing time shall come, and they are brought before councils to answer for their faith, they may be able to give a reason for the hope that is in them, with meekness and fear.

Agitate, agitate, agitate! The subjects which we present to the world must be to us a living reality.

It is important that in defending the doctrines, which we consider fundamental articles of faith, we should never allow ourselves to employ arguments that are not wholly sound. These may avail to silence an opposer, but they do not honor the truth.

We should present sound arguments, that will not only silence our opponents, but will bear the closest and most searching scrutiny. . .

[Counsels to Writers and Editors, pages 33-42]

Ellen White was not afraid to push for more truth, or to change her mind when she found error. Thus she would love Adventist Reform, because it reflects her Gospel views and positions.

If Tithe, the IJ, or abstinence are shown from the scriptures to be wrong. So be it. That is what Ellen White would correctly say. This was the Way of the Pioneers. They were serious about following truth.

Too bad that the White Estate failed to show the real Ellen White to the church. Too bad that they do not care about truth.

As for this idea that Ellen White supports Tithe, it is mythical and false. After 1888, Ellen White refused to pay tithe as SDA doctrine teaches. When the leaders tried to correct her, she refused, as preserved in the Watson Letter for all to see.

See: The Fraud of Church Tithing see post # 131

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … 000#p10000

So Don, you are not being honest about church history. Not only is tithing not a pillar in the Three Angels Messages, it was not taught by the Millerites nor the Battle Creek SDA’s until the 1870’s, when it was developed by D. M. Canright. The most legalistic man in 19th century SDA history next to Uriah Smith.

After Canright had left the church over Waggoner’s 1888 theology, Ellen White backed away from this practice, and in fact, REFUSED to practice Tithing as taught by the church. When her position became public, the leaders tried to get her to fully and unequivocally support Canright’s Tithe doctrine, but she refused, claiming the Spirit was leading her AWAY from this practice.

Ellen White does NOT support Tithing as the SDA church has taught all these years. Thus she would rejoice to see that some in Adventist Community are beginning to understand why it is so wrong and against the Gospel.

She would also be sad to see so many, like you Pastor Don, following the false views of Canright and Smith. Tithing is a great error and Ellen White knew this, not because of her command of the Scriptures, which was not very good, but because of her spiritual gifts.

Today, we need very little of the Spirit to understand this point of doctrine, which means that those who refuse to repudiate tithe have little or no Spirit. They are blind about the Gospel.

The Pioneers would “rejoice” at this discussion of reforming Adventism, not “denounce” those who are insisting that truth be followed no matter what. Ellen White was a tithe rebel until the day she died, and no one should think otherwise. And so too all those that embrace genuine Adventist Reform.

Don said: Now, I know some would applaud such a revision of Adventism. My point is that Adventist Reform seems to be a Sabbatarian Millerite movement rather than a Seventh-day Adventist movement.

Tom said: Ellen White would be the first to stand up and cheer AR! She supports Dr. Ford’s views and those of Adventist Reform.

The church has been very dishonest with Ellen White’s views and theological positions. What most everyone thinks about Ellen White, and her views of Adventism, are wrong. Why? Because the White Estate has been producing novels all these years, disguised as honest books.

As for the Millerites, they were a Sunday based movement. I am not advocating a return to such an error. Adventist Reform fully supports the 7th day as the Lord’s Day and the Gospel Sabbath for the church.

It’s just that AR does not embrace the “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the SDA’s. Rather, it completes Sabbath Reform, fully embracing the NC Sabbath instruction of Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath.

Adventist Reform also represents the 4th and future level of eschatological development. It is built on Miller’s work as well as that of the SDA’s, which is why it is Sabbatarian and embraces the State of the dead just like those of the 3rd Angels Message.

The 4th Angels Message represents the truths of all three messages, without the errors and myths. But the church leaders today could care less about this final Message. Which is why they don’t try to move the church forward in this direction. This is because they are confused and in the dark; they have no direction, no message, and no Gospel.

It is Gospel truth and cutting edge eschatology that must be pursued and understood, no matter the cost. Such a policy is fundamental for Adventism at every level.

But the leaders don’t care about truth or the facts. They act like the Pharisees, and thus they will meet with the same fate; disaster and doom. This is the current path of the SDA Denomination unless they repent.

Bill D said: Tom, It is a mistake to promote all that Des teaches as if his views are the final word for the Adventist movement.

Tom said: First, it is never a mistake to listen to anyone with such a deep knowledge of the Word. Nor is it a mistake to listen to those who understand church history, theology, and eschatology correctly. Such people are rare. Dr. Ford is full of Gospel wisdom and experience; I suggest that the Adventist Community pay more attention to his Gospel views, not less.

Second, a number of points that Adventist Reform promotes, such as abstinence, or the error of tithing, were never promoted by Dr. Ford. But so what? Truth is truth regardless from where it comes.

Bill D. said: I am as eager for biblical reform for Adventism as you are but to go down the road with Des rejection of the historicity of Genesis 1-11 is a grave mistake.

Tom said: Dr. Ford views about the age of the earth make Gospel sense. The age of the earth and the secrets of creation are not Gospel doctrine. If Jesus had wanted the age of the earth to be part of the Gospel Story, he would have held up the Jewish colander, which claims to know the age of the earth from the creation. But he did no such thing.

So we can’t invent new doctrine today by requiring everyone to agree that the earth is very young. The age of the earth is not a test question for Eternal Life. Rather it is a diversion that is against the Gospel.

Moreover, if you asked Peter about the age of the earth, he would respond that Creation, by the Word of God, happened “long ago,” refusing to be drawn into such a debate. To underscore this point, he makes it clear that God’s view of time is not the same as ours. This “fact” should never be overlooked, much less so the church can make up doctrines about the age of the earth and the process of creation.

2Pet. 3:5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

2Pet. 3:6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.

2Pet. 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2Pet. 3:8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

2Pet. 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

2Pet. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

Paul would also have something to say about this debate. In fact, he would condemn those who think their view of the Creation account and the age of the earth is doctrine for the church.

While a Young Earth view may, or may not be correct, Paul would make the same point as he did about idols in Romans. Which is this: myths and theological error on certain points do not invalidate Gospel salvation. While Paul admits, “there is no such thing as an idol,” he is careful to make sure that those in the church who think otherwise are not confronted or condemned.

Rom. 14:2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.

Rom. 14:3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.

Rom. 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

The parallel with the Creation Debate is clear. Those who think the world is billions of years old, (when it may be very young) are not to be denied Gospel salvation, much less made to feel ostracized or less of a Christian for their views. Assuming they are wrong, like those who thought idols were real, they are not to be made fun of, or diminished in any way. The same goes for those that have an impossible or incorrect view of the Creation Story.

We are not saved by how well we understand the Creation Story or by our views about the age of the earth or the flood. Rather, the Gospel saves all those who embrace the teachings of Jesus, regardless of their views about the age of the earth or the details of creation, or even if they think idols and ghost are real. Jesus does not teach any doctrine about the age of the earth, and neither can we.

1Cor. 8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.

1Cor. 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,

1Cor. 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

1Cor. 8:7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

Like the debate about food offered to idols, when it comes to the modern Creation Debate, “Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.” Rom. 14:5

Rom. 14:7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;

Rom. 14:8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.

Rom. 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Rom. 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

Rom. 14:13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this — not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way.

Rom. 14:14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Rom. 14:15 For if because of food, (or the age of the earth) your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food (or with the young earth theory) him for whom Christ died.

Rom. 14:16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;

Rom. 14:17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, (or geology and science), but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

The NT does not support this obsession about the age of the earth, much less give any such details. If some think the earth is very young, or very old, don’t let “what is a good thing for you” to be a point of debate or condemnation. There is to be no such doctrine as the age of the earth in the church. Forget this phony debate, which is nothing more than a diversion from the real issues that need to be debated and discussed.

Christians are free in the Gospel to embrace any number of views about the creation account. No one in the church has been authorized to judge, correct, or “destroy” any that have a different view. They could be young or very old. There is evidence for both. But it is not a matter of Gospel significance. Let people believe what they want, we are not to judge, or to think that our views are superior, even if they are, (which they are not).

Rom. 14:13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this — not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way.

Rom. 14:14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Rom. 14:15 For if because of food (or the age of the earth) your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food (or with your interpretations of the Genesis Story), him for whom Christ died.

Let all read and understand the Genesis Debate, by Dr. Ford:

http://www.adventistreform.com/TheGenesisDebate.html

Bill D said: Des now embraces Hugh Ross progressive creationism, which is a code word for theistic evolution.

Tom said: Ha! At least Dr. Ford does not believe that idols and other gods are real. Because if he did, you would not be allowed to complain or judge him unworthy of heaven. This is exactly what Paul teaches. And we know that idols are not real!

So if the NT teaches that one is not to be condemned for embracing myths about idols, on what basis can you condemn Dr. Ford for his views about Creation and the age of the earth?

Even if Dr. Ford’s views are wrong, (which they are not), there is still no basis for negative judgment or debate because this point is a diversion. There is no doctrine about the age of the earth in the Bible, so there cannot be such a test in the church today. Period!

Bill D said: Des feels that the only way to save our youth in the church is to reject young earth creationism.

Tom said: Dr. Ford feels that the only way to save anyone is through the Gospel.

Moreover, the Gospel Story does not contain any loyalty oath about the age of the earth, nor is there any requirement to understand geology or the process of creation. So stop promoting diversions as if there were Gospel doctrines.

Rom. 15:7 Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God.

There is no basis for anyone to think badly of Dr. Ford for his views on Genesis, much less that he is a heretic. The Gospel teaches that we are to embrace those who have accepted Christ, regardless if their views about idols, or the creation account, are fully accurate or up to our so-called standards.

Bill D said: Actually to reject biblical creationism would be the death knell of Adventism and send it down the road to humanism and existentialism.

Tom said: Adventism is dying because they have rejected the Gospel, repudiated the Pioneers, and misunderstood the Three Angels Messages. Their free fall into schism and irrelevance has nothing to do with the Genesis debate and everything to do with dishonesty, faithlessness, and incompetence.

Furthermore, one can easily believe that God created the world, without having to prove or defend either the process or the age of the earth. The Genesis Story is not meant to be a scientific account, much less a point about salvation.

Bill D said: This it the very road which my friend Bob Brinsmead took and now he is no longer a Christian.

Tom said: RB was confused and misled about the Gospel by the Old Covenant SDA’s. Thus he embraced the IJ and perfectionism with great zeal. After he learned this was wrong, thanks to Dr. Ford, he found the Gospel Path for a short while. But then he went on to reject the Gospel and the Word, repudiate the Pioneers, and misunderstand the Three Angels Messages. Such is a recipe for disaster.

Dr. Ford is the good guy in this story. RB was a loose cannon.

Bill D said: He is now a theistic humanist who rejects all that the bible teaches and he states that we can know almost nothing about God and who He is.

Tom said: This is the sad result of those that reject the Gospel and ignore the authority of the Bible. But the SDA’s are not much better. They too repudiate the Gospel and ignore the Word. They too reject the Pioneers and badly misunderstand the Three Angels Messages. Except they pretend they are teaching truthful doctrines when they are great liars and hypocrites that deny the very fundamentals of the Protestant and Adventist Faith. At least RB is more honest and less hypocritical.

Bill D asked: Also I would like you to reconsider your view that the judgment referred to in the first angels message is referring to the second coming.

Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. Why would anyone have to reconsider the facts? The facts are what they are. I have no power to change or revise church history, and neither does the church or anyone else. What is the point of such manipulation?

First, it is not “my view” that the preaching of the pre-millennial 2nd Coming represents the fulfillment of the 1st Angels Message. This is what every 19th century Adventist taught, as well as all the SDA Pioneers, including Ellen White. There was never a time in 19th century Adventist eschatology where the IJ was viewed as the Judgment pillar of Rev 14: 6 & 7. NEVER.

So why should I pretend otherwise? What right do any of us have to revise history and change the facts? This is why Traditional Adventism is wrong. It is built on myths and fabrications from the Takoma Park apologists.

While you obviously views things differently, I have no desire to embrace false doctrine and fabricated church history for any reason. Much less to defend a horrible doctrine like the IJ, which is so legalistic and against the Gospel.

The IJ is a false and wicked doctrine that has led many away from the Gospel. There is no chance that it will become part of the 4th Angels Message, which will be the purest articulation of the Gospel that the world has every heard.

Any that still cling to this great error, have fallen from Grace. Those that are serious about the Gospel, and Eternal Life, will never knowingly indulge in such false and twisted doctrines. Those who do, are only fooling themselves and forfeiting heaven.

Is the IJ worth such a price? Not to anyone that is sane.

Bill D Said: The apostles clearly believed that the world was being judged NOW in the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Tom said: You can forget trying to show that either Jesus or the Apostles taught the IJ. It never happened. Moreover, Jesus clearly supports the Jewish interpretation of Dan 8: 14, which is the Chanukah Story. There is no doctrine of the IJ in the Bible. Period. It is a mistake, and all need to admit this fact and repent, along with many other false, SDA doctrines.

The NT is clear that the 2nd Coming is Day of Judgment, even as Adventist history is clear that this is the only valid interpretation of Rev 14: 6 & 7. Such are the facts of history.

Bill D said: Christ is now set down upon His throne and He is judging the nations and individuals according to their response to the gospels call for all to repent and trust in the sinless life and atoning death of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin.

Tom said: Wrong. Christ did not come to earth, the first time, to Judge, but to save. (The world was already doomed.)Thus he is first and foremost working to save sinners in his Priestly role. When probation closes, he become a Judge and comes to earth on a throne to Judge the Nations.

John 3:17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Jesus is not now judging the Nations. This Judgment of the nations takes place at the 2nd Coming. This is the DAY OF JUDGMENT.

Moreover, the last church has already been judged in the Pre-Advent Judgment of Rev 3: 14. So that “judgment” is complete and on the record. The only question is when will the church repent and move forward to do its Gospel duty?

John 12:47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Matt. 25:31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.

Matt. 25:32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

Matt. 25:33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats bon the left.

Matt. 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

The Judgment has not started as you and the SDA’s claim. Christ is still functioning as our High Priest. He is also fighting against the forces of evil on behalf of God and the church. There is no judgment taking place for anyone right now. But there is a “fixed” Day in the FUTURE when it will take place.

Acts 17:30 “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

Acts 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

Rom. 2:15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Rom. 2:16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

2Tim. 4:8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Are the various cities and Nations being judged now? No. This takes place at the 2nd Coming, which is the Day of Judgment.

Matt. 10:15 “Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

The Day of Judgment has not arrived yet.

Matt. 12:36 “But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.

1Cor. 4:5 Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.

James 5:9 Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.

Jesus is not now judging the nations or anyone. When that point comes, you will know it. So admit you are wrong and give up the IJ and anything close to it.

Bill D said: The hour of his judgment did not begin in 1844. It began when our Lord was enthroned as King of Kings and Lord of Lords awaiting until all His enemies would be His foot stool. This is the entire theme of Revelation as well as the Pauline epistles.

Tom said: The Adventists viewed the “preaching” of the 2nd Coming as the fulfillment of Rev 14: 7. The hour of his Judgment was only and always a reference to the 2nd Coming as the Day of Judgment and the end of the world. This is an irrefutable fact of history. This is the story of the Millerites.

2Pet. 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the Day of Judgment,

2Pet. 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

1John 4:17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.

Jude 6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

Jude 14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,

Jude 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Rev. 14:7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

The “Hour of his Judgment” in Rev 14: 7 is the 2nd Coming. Not the IJ. Let all SDA’s repeat this over and over until the truth of history and theology does not sound so strange.

This is not only what the NT teaches, but also what Miller and the Adventists promoted. They were all agreed that the term “Judgment” in Rev 14: 7 is a reference to the 2nd Advent. Thus, the great Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message is the Second Coming. Not the IJ, which was invented long after all the pillars had been established. Such a fact condemns and destroys Traditional Adventism, which is built on the myth that the IJ is the judgment pillar in the 1st Angels Message.

Bill Diehl, your views of the judgment are wrong on a number of levels. They cannot be defended. You tried and lost. But if you want to try to make your case again, have it.

However, you might want to speak with Clifford Goldstein. He too tried to make a case for the IJ. Like you, he also thought that Dr. Ford and Tom Norris were all wrong. But he soon discovered otherwise and ran away embarrassed, refusing to answer any questions or face up to the facts and repent. I think you also did the same thing awhile back. However, what is the point of running away from truth and Bible study?

With that friendly warning, here are some links to get you started.

The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227

1844 Made Simple
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/8/10890.html

Goldstein Defends the IJ
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/732.html

Pastor Don Defends the IJ
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1166507859

Understanding the Pre-Advent Judgment
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/8/9213.html

Tom further said: Jesus is not judging the nations right now, nor is he judging the saints in the IJ, as the SDA’s teach. Shame on you for embracing such gross error. You are a Christian writer and Bible teacher, you should know better.

Remember, you, and all those that are Pastors, apologists, and Bible scholars, -will be held to higher standard in the Judgment. So beware my friend…

James 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

John said: Bob Brinsmead ...is now a theistic humanist who rejects all that the bible teaches and he states that we can know almost nothing about God and who He is. Wasn’t it Tom here who called Brinsmead the greatest SDA theologian ever?

Tom said: No. It was Bill Sorensen, an IJ fanatic. He only liked the young RB, the one that promoted the IJ. Thus, Bill S naturally hates Dr. Ford because he cured RB of the IJ delusion.

RB was not a theologian. Rather, he was another youthful SDA that was misled and manipulated by the false views of Traditional Adventism. In fact, because the White Estate was hiding the real history of the 1888 debate, RB embraced the popular, but fictional view, that showed Waggoner and Jones promoting perfection, supported by Ellen White.

Had the White Estate not chosen to hide and misrepresent the 1888 history, there would have been no perfection based movement led by RB, because this is not what happened in 1888. Thus the fault for the “Awakening” movement lies with the White Estate for committing fraud, and allowing others to believe what was never true.

Brinsmead enrolled in a Bachelor of Arts in theology at Avondale College in 1955 when he was in his mid-twenties. One of his older brothers, John, also enrolled at the college in this year. Robert developed a form of perfectionism after reading the writings of A. T. Jones and E. J. Waggoner[9] (of 1888 Minneapolis General Conference Session fame). His final year was 1958.[14]

While still a student, Brinsmead was disfellowshipped from the church in 1961 for his writings on "perfectionism", which would be his theme for the 1960s.[4] Brinsmead wrote he "retained lay membership in the church until 1962."[14] However he would remain closely involved with the church for another two decades.[4]

John was also disfellowshipped, and together they formed the "Sanctuary Awakening Fellowship".[9] While it was based in the United States, it also influenced Africa and Asia.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bri … ote-Land-8

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Brinsmead

After Dr. Ford showed RB that the IJ was wrong, and so too the Traditional SDA Gospel, RB changed his views. He then kept changing his views until he no longer believed in the Gospel Story or the Word.

RB lacked theological training as well as scholastic discipline and stability. He was a child of Traditional Adventism, raised on the cultic myths of 1844 and 1888. While he wanted to teach theology and correct others, he started out with a false and very confused Gospel, which he never fully corrected. Thus he failed to grasp the necessary Fundamentals of the Christian and Advent Faiths.

John said: what should we believe happened? Should we think he started actually looking at all the evidence? and started thinking that humans are important, unlike the ancient Hebrew claim that God could justifiably kill people off in floods and plague and opening up the earth, and in the final Great BBQ by the millions?

Tom said: As a youth, RB was ruined by the cultic delusions of Adventism. He grew up in a legalistic home and took to heart what the confused SDA’s taught about becoming perfect to pass the IJ. He became a great Judaizer and did not know it.

He repented, thanks to Dr. Ford, and embraced the Protestant Gospel for a short time, and then no Gospel. But he started out wrong and confused, and kept moving and changing.

John said: why can't humanism and Christianity co-exist?

Tom said: Eternal Life is only through the Gospel. Secular humanism is devoid of the Gospel or Salvation.

http://www.aboundingjoy.com/humanism_chart.htm

In conclusion, I hope Bill D gets more serious about Adventist Reform. This is the only path that will save the Advent Movement.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 05-20-11 9:53 pm

Tom, there will be no collective saving, movement, denomination or otherwise. We will be saved as individuals believing in Jesus Christ gift that His Father accepts for our sins. Right?

tom_norris · 05-21-11 2:20 pm

Bob2 said: Tom, there will be no collective saving, movement, denomination or otherwise.

Tom said: Just as there was a “collective, saving movement” in the 1st century, so too at the end of the NC age. Thus, a portion of the Laodicean church will repent and re-organize in order to proclaim the final Gospel Message to a world headed for Judgment.

Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

Rev. 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

SDA eschatology is more correct than many assume. There will be a final Advent Message, and it will feature the Gospel, as well as the correct 7th day Sabbath.

This 4th Angels Message will also promote a clear and credible view of how the Time of Trouble will start, preparing those awake in the church to survive the horror that is coming.

Mark 13:17 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

Mark 13:18 “But pray that it may not happen in the winter.

Mark 13:19 “For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.

Mark 13:20 “Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Bob2 said: We will be saved as individuals believing in Jesus Christ gift that His Father accepts for our sins. Right?

Tom said: While we are saved as “individual” Christians, (assuming we have the correct Gospel), everyone waits for the same Judgment and salvation to be revealed. Those living on earth when the 2nd Coming takes place, do not precede those who have died. We all go to heaven together.

1Th. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

1Th. 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

1Th. 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

1Th. 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

1Th. 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The saved all go to the New Jerusalem together. Then there will be a great party. With real wine, dancing, and much joy. Many who embrace “abstinence” will not be welcome, even as great sinners are greeted with gladness.

Heb. 11:13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

Heb. 11:14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.

Heb. 11:15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.

Heb. 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

Luke 12:35 “Be dressed in readiness, and keep your lamps lit.

Luke 12:36 “Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks.

Luke 12:37 “Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them.

Matt. 26:27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;

Matt. 26:28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Matt. 26:29 “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

Rev. 19:9 Then he *said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he said to me, “These are true words of God.”

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 05-27-11 12:21 pm

Traditional Adventism Makes Marriage Hell:
-----------------------------------------------

Question for Tom Norris:

Hello Tom,

Beforehand, thank you for taking the time to reply.

My husband and I have been married for only 2 years. I am his third wife and the first to conceive a child.

He is older than me for 8 years. I have been Adventist all my life although my mother is Adventist and father is Catholic.

My husband converted to Adventist at the age of 18 and has been Adventist for 11 years now. He grew up without his father and his mother had to leave him with his grandmother at an early age to be able to provide for him economically.

We married within 6 months of dating (ironically, this is the same time frame with which he married his two previous wives). We have had problems right after marriage.

I moved in to his house at a 4hr drive away from my family. Unfortunately, about 5-6 months into marriage, we were both already wanting a way out (divorce) again; ironically, this is the same time frame with which his previous marriages started to dissolve.

If I were to summarize our marriage into one word.... it would be 'hell'. I decided to file for divorce since 4 months ago.

We have both contributed a lot to where our marriage is now.

From my part, I recognize where I have done wrong & work hard at avoiding the repetition of those problems. I am a sensible person and that too doesn't help much in our relationship.

About him, well, he doesn't recognize his mistakes and actually thinks everything has been my fault only & is not willing to consider any wrong doing from himself & tries to find excuses for everything & anything making it 'my fault'.

With his example of a "Christian" being that he would study his lesson, the bible, EGW books, and preach, I let myself become apart from church and God. We have had an 'on & off' marriage consisting mostly of 'off' & for long periods of time (months...).

This past time that we have been apart, I have felt a spiritual need like no other & have decided to devote myself and our child to God. I also decided to put my pride aside and ask my husband to re-conciliate; reconciliation didn't last long.

God has also put in my path a great friend who has taught me the weaknesses of my personality & character. I asked this member from our church & friend (who he is familiar with) to help us in our marriage and to get to know each other better since she specializes in character counseling but he rudely rejected as I had already expected.

From my point of view, my husband is a very difficult man to deal with being that he is not open to consider anything that is against his point of view and opinion.

I love him and want to save our marriage. From his point, he is only interested in saving the marriage for our daughter and this, as a result, leads him to not giving the marriage the best of his interest (since he doesn't actually feel the same for me).

Either way, we both have agreed to keep trying. Personally, I wish things were different in the sense that he would actually try & not just say he is. I trust in the Lord our God but am afraid that things wont get any better & I am stuck to live this way (due to religious beliefs, I have decided not to divorce).

I have tried every way I can think of to get his attention into showing a bit of effort towards our marriage and happiness. I still patiently await on God.

Anyhow, what can be done & what is there to do in this situation?

Lucy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom Norris replied:

Lucy,

I sympathize with your plight. It is sad to see religious teachers and Pastors acting in such an unloving manner.

Unfortunately, many men who teach the Gospel, have no business doing so. Many in the church treat women as if they are not equal, as if they lived under the Old Covenant. Which is why the SDA’s do not allow women to be ordained to the ministry. This is very wrong. Women are not treated correctly in the SDA church.

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=880

Furthermore, the NT teaches that a man must love his wife, not blame her for everything, and treat her badly, making her life miserable. Unfortunately, many who instruct others in religion are not qualified to do so. Your story reads like an abused wife, and your husband should be ashamed of himself for not being able to relate to his wife in a loving Gospel manner.

Love is not judgmental or critical, neither is it demanding or demeaning. The home should not be a source of conflict, regret, or bitterness.

Eph. 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

Col. 3:19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be embittered against them.

Leaders in the church must be able to demonstrate genuine love to their wives or they are not fit to teach others. It appears that your husband is not fit to teach the Gospel, even as there is no doubt he is promoting much false and incorrect doctrine.

Here are the rules for any Pastor, Deacon, or Teacher:

1Tim. 3:2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

1Tim. 3:3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.

1Tim. 3:4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity

1Tim. 3:5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),

1Tim. 3:12 Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.

Divorce in the New Covenant

As for divorce, it has not been outlawed in the New Covenant as many teach. If that were the case, there would be no divorces or divorced people. While Jesus sets out the ideal, he does not prohibit divorce. Rather, he considered it sinful in most cases. But even so, his teaching on this point is not for everyone, as verse 11 makes clear. Thus, one is free to divorce if necessary, sin or no sin, even as no one should be forced to live in an abusive marriage

Matt. 19:3 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?”

Matt. 19:4 And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,

Matt. 19:5 and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’?

Matt. 19:6 “So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

Matt. 19:7 They *said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?”

Matt. 19:8 He *said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.

Matt. 19:9 “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Matt. 19:10 The disciples *said to Him, “If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.”

Matt. 19:11 But He said to them, “Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.

Divorce Not Mortal Sin

Jesus refuted the easy divorce views of his day, (see verse 3), which was “for any reason.” He teaches a more stringent definition of divorce, which equaled adultery.

Such a view condemns many. But Jesus also holds to an even more stringent view of adultery than divorce. Thus, by the very thought alone, one can be guilty of adultery. With such strict definitions of sin, it is not hard to commit adultery, with or without divorce.

Matt. 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’;

Matt. 5:28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Jesus teachings about the law and adultery condemn the world. Which was one of the points he was making. This is why Paul says that all have sinned and none are righteous.

Rom. 3:10 as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

Rom. 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

Rom. 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Rom. 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Rom. 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption, which is in Christ Jesus;

No one should confuse Jesus teaching about the law, with the Gospel. They are not the same. We are only saved by the Gospel, not the law. Which means that anyone can be forgiven for adultery, no matter if it is based on a thought,- or a divorce.

1John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

1John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

The Gospel is for sinners. Not those who think they are righteous. Which means that many who have been divorced, and are guilty of adultery, have not committed a mortal sin. If that were the case, who could be saved? Only the perfect people. But there are no such people.

Matt. 9:13 “But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Matt. 21:31 Jesus *said to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.

Salvation is not based on how well anyone obeys the law on any point-much less adultery.

We are only saved by the confession that we are sinners, always in need of Christ’s imputed Righteousness, which is by faith alone. We are not saved by our works, nor are we judged in the IJ, as the SDA’s teach, to see if we are good enough to be saved.

We are not good enough to be saved and our broken marriages underscore this point. And we never will be. All are sinners. There is no IJ for those that have embraced the genuine Gospel.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Eph. 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Paul and Divorce

Note that Jesus is speaking about men divorcing their wives and not visa versa. Women had little freedom to divorce their husbands in the Old Testament, although some found a way.

However, Paul teaches that a wife “should not leave her husband,” even as he makes the point that this view is from Christ. But he also teaches that if a spouse is an unbeliever, and thy want a divorce, “let them leave.” (See 1 Cor 7:15 below)

1Cor. 7:10 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband

1Cor. 7:11 (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

1Cor. 7:12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her.

1Cor. 7:13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.

1Cor. 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

1Cor. 7:15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.

1Cor. 7:16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

1Cor. 7:17 Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk. And so I direct in call the churches.

1Cor. 7:32 But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord;

1Cor. 7:33 but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,

1Cor. 7:34 and his interests are divided. The woman who is unmarried, and the virgin, is concerned about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

A Christian is not meant to live in “bondage” or in an abusive situation with an unbeliever. (Anyone who is abusive is not acting like a believer, even if they claim otherwise.) Thus if a spouse wants to leave, “let them leave.” V15. Thus divorce is not completely outlawed as many assume.

Duties of the Husband

It is wrong for a husband to ignore his marriage responsibilities. Once married, he cannot act otherwise, as if the work of preaching the Gospel is all that matters.

Paul is clear that once married, the husband must be “concerned about how to please his wife.” This is his first duty.

It is clear that your husband is not “pleasing his wife,” and this is very wrong. Of course he may have the same complaint about you, but regardless, things are not as they should be, and thus much unhappiness results. This is no way to live.

Love is the answer:

It is wrong for any man to stand up in the church and teach the Gospel if they don’t know how to love their wives. The command of Jesus is to “love one another.” If a man cannot love his wife, he is a hypocrite, having no right to teach the Gospel.

John 13:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

John 13:35 “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

1John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

1John 4:8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Rom. 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good.

Eph. 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

Eph. 5:28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;

Col. 3:19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be embittered against them.

1Pet. 3:7 You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.

1Pet. 3:8 To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit;

1Pet. 3:9 not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing.

Without Love, there is nothing:

1Cor. 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

1Cor. 13:3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

1Cor. 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,

1Cor. 13:8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

1Cor. 13:13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1Cor. 16:14 Let all that you do be done in love.

Here are some additional links:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/div_bibl.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_diov.htm

http://www.salinabible.org/Articles/epistles.htm

http://www.twopaths.com/faq_marriage.htm

http://www.jimfeeney.org/divorceandremarriage.html

http://www.wisereaction.org/ebooks/wenh … _first.pdf

Conclusion:

It seems that your husband, who appears to be a Traditional SDA, does not know how to relate to women properly, nor does he understand the Gospel.

The sooner he repents of the IJ and other SDA errors, and embraces the genuine Gospel of Christ, the better off you both will be. Then love and mercy, not law and legalism, will become the foundation for your home.

Col. 3:12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

Col. 3:13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.

Col. 3:14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.

Col. 3:15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.

I hope this was helpful, and I wish you both much success.

Jude 2 May mercy and peace and love be multiplied to you.

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 05-27-11 9:14 pm

It would be interesting to find out if he is a preacher having married three times and turning down counselling from his own church. His actions don't sound like a preacher, and if he is, won't last long. Be lead by God, should be the counsel, but when the partner will not accept it, there is nothing wrong with separation and divorce.

tom_norris · 05-28-11 10:58 am

Bob, I usually don't answer these types of questions because it is too difficult to know what is going on. You would be surprised at the number of complaints that come in like this.

So I wondered, like you, is the husband an SDA Pastor? Or perhaps a head Elder? But whatever he is, it seems clear to me that he is a typical TSDA control freak, who misunderstands the Gospel and treats women like second class citizens.

These legalistic and unloving Adventists are hard to live with. This is the natural result of so much false doctrine. Being the wife of an SDA Pharisee cannot be pleasant, and this letter makes this point.

I answered this question because it shows the dysfunctional, unloving, nature of Traditional Adventism. Women need to be warned away from those men so foolish enough to have embraced a false Gospel, one that is full of rules, but devoid of genuine love.

True Gospel doctrine leads to peace, respect, and love in the home. When such things are missing, so too is the Gospel.

It is hard, if not impossible, for those who believe in the IJ, Tithe, and the OC Sabbath to understand the NT doctrine of love and interact in a positive way with people. Those who live their lives based on the law, and not the Gospel, don't even know how to define religion properly, much less love their spouses.

Traditional Adventism ruins lives. I have seen it over and over. It is sad. The only way to stop such cultic madness and division is to repudiate a long list of false, SDA doctrines and repent.

Unless this church leader can find the genuine Gospel, and admit to his many personal mistakes and false, SDA doctrines, he is a lost man, and so too his marriage.

I wish them well. But since when do the TSDA’s ever repent of the IJ and embrace the true Gospel? Most are too arrogant. So they refuse to ever admit any wrongdoing or false doctrine. They would rather lose those closest to them, instead of repenting, and embracing Gospel Reform. This is the power of false doctrine.

Let all beware the TSDA’s…

Here is the latest from Lucy:

Hello Tom.

Thank you for your kind response.

It is a nightmare having to be in this situation of confusion.

Thank you for your support and help.

God Bless. -Lucy.

-----------------------------------

bob_2 · 05-28-11 11:39 pm

Maybe, Tom, you should follow in Bill Loveless's footsteps, and become a marriage counsellor, eh?

tom_norris · 06-09-11 11:32 am

Dear Brother Tom:

I appreciate your answers here on Allexperts.com. I read them often. I find them very informative.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-2318/

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … _70484.htm

Thank you for your kind remarks about me. It‘s rare when an SDA is so complementary and understanding of a critic of SDAism. I believe that this points out the great difference between New Covenant SDAs and Traditionalist SDAs.

I see you have met David R. I have known him to be very paranoid seeing Jesuit spies behind every critic of TSDAism.

He complains that the questions I receive are from my “friends” (I see that he calls them “partners” to you). Since most of the questions I receive are hostile I believe that David R. and I have a whole different idea of what a friend is.

It’s laughable that he is so sure that you, a life long SDA, are a Catholic Jesuit spy!

I have found that if you disagree with a TSDA they cannot believe that you are honest and sincere in your criticism, but you must be a demon trying to destroy the SDA Church.

It's wonderful when two Christians can disagree and not think that the other is of the devil.

Thank you for helping me to see the great difference between SDAs like yourself and those SDAs like David R.

Your Brother in Christ,

Sal

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sal said: Dear Brother Tom: I appreciate your answers here on Allexperts.com. I read them often. I find them very informative.

Tom said: Adventist history and doctrine is very confusing and difficult to understand. It has taken me many years of serious research, study, and discussion to master this material. I am happy to share the results with those that are interested, especially since what is in the public domain is mostly myth and propaganda.

The quest to understand Adventism has not been an easy task because the modern SDA leaders have not been honest about doctrine or church history. They have suppressed and manipulated Ellen White’s writings, dishonestly revised history and hermeneutics, even as the leaders promoted doctrines in the name of Ellen White that she did not support.

The Takoma Park leaders developed Traditional Adventism, and the legions of TSDA’s that have since embraced it. They are responsible for programming and indoctrinating those like David R. and Clifford Goldstein and Doug Batchelor into the fraud of Traditional Adventism.

The White Estate especially is guilty or training many to become fanatics about the IJ and the law, even as they slandered and demonized those, like Dr. Ford, that tried to tell the truth about church history and correct Gospel doctrine. But the SDA’s foolishly exiled him rather than admit they held any error.

The Takoma Park SDA’s were very legalistic and incompetent, full of error and myth. They never treated their critics fairly, nor have they ever been honest with the public or their members about much of anything. Glacier View was a false trial that only made matters worse. It marked the beginning of a long decline that will be fatal for the SDA’s if they don’t soon repent and embrace Gospel Reform.

Growing up Adventist, I never suspected that the leaders were so corrupt, doctrinally wrong, and controlling. I went public with my research in the late 1990’s when I realized that the White Estate was never going to tell the truth about either doctrine or church history. They were content to let the TSDA’s believe whatever myths they wanted, while everyone else remained confused and perplexed.

The White Estate must confess and repent for their massive fraud about Ellen White and church history. They need to correct the record and tell the truth about what happened in1888 between Uriah Smith, the father of the TSDA’s, and Ellen White, who played the role of a Gospel Reformer.

They also need to admit that the IJ was never a pillar from Historic Adventism as they claimed all these years and as Glacier View made official. Traditional Takoma Park Adventism is built on fraud and historical manipulation.

When the facts are allowed to replace the many SDA myths and fabrications, there will be no reason for the TSDA’s, or for Traditional, Old Covenant, Adventism to exist. All will know that neither Ellen White nor the Word agrees with the official doctrines of the church.

Then, with the record corrected, and the genuine Three Angels Messages in place, the church can move forward to develop New Covenant, Gospel Adventism, which is the last and best stage of the Advent Movement. This is the point of Adventist Reform.

To date, the reaction to Adventist Reform has been gratifying. Most all are stunned to hear such a different and credible view of SDA history and doctrine. Few had any idea that such a corrected and well-documented view of Adventism existed, or that Traditional Adventism does not have the support of Ellen White as the leaders have claimed all these years.

Few, if any, had ever heard the term New Covenant Adventist, and fewer still had ever dreamed there was a New Covenant, Gospel Sabbath still to be discovered by the last church.

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

Sal said: Thank you for your kind remarks about me. It‘s rare when an SDA is so complementary and understanding of a critic of SDAism. I believe that this points out the great difference between New Covenant SDA’s and Traditionalist SDA’s.

Tom said: Yes. The great difference is the Gospel. The TSDA’s know only the law, law, law, not the Gospel. They are obsessed with so many rules, regulations, and prejudices that the teachings of Christ are not comprehended. They are too Old Covenant minded.

Sal said: I see you have met David R. I have known him to be very paranoid seeing Jesuit spies behind every critic of TSDAism.

Tom said: David is a typical TSDA. They are all pretty much the same. I have met legions of them over the years, including Arthur White, one of the greatest of all the modern TSDA’s. This group has ruined the SDA Denomination. Glacier View, in 1980, was their high water mark.

These poor people, like David, are very sincere, but they have been brainwashed by the SDA’s to embrace a dubious and complex package of errors. They are angry, legalistic, and convinced that they are fully correct on all points. Today their power and influence is only a fraction of what it once was when Takoma Park Adventism was in its prime in the 1950’s and 1960’s.

Like the Judaizers in Paul’s day, the TSDA’s are almost impossible to reason with because their goal is not to find more truth on the merits, but to defend their false traditions at all costs. Thus, like the Jews they emulate, they are almost impossible to instruct.

The SDA’s have always had problems being honest about Gospel doctrine. This is why they self-destructed in Battle Creek, and had to move to Takoma Park, -only to repeat the same destructive pattern for all to see. Yet, they still refuse to admit their errors and repent.

Listen to Ellen White speak to the stubborn and traditional minded SDA’s of her day that refused to be honest about the Word and the Gospel. This is how many SDA’s still act and think today.

“Those who allow prejudice to bar the mind against the reception of truth cannot receive the divine enlightenment.”

“Yet, when a view of Scripture is presented, many do not ask; Is it true—in harmony with God’s word? But by whom is it advocated? And unless it comes through the very channel that pleases them, they do not accept it.”

“So thoroughly satisfied are they with their own ideas that they will not examine the Scripture evidence with a desire to learn, but refuse to be interested, merely because of their prejudices.”

"The Lord often works where we least expect Him; He surprises us by revealing His power through instruments of His own choice, while He passes by the men to whom we have looked as those through whom light should come. God desires us to receive the truth upon its own merits—because it is truth."

Ellen White, TM 105-106.

While the SDA’s claim they understand the Bible and Prophecy better than all others, it is just not true. I agree that they should know these things, but they do not.

So yes, I have had a number of discussions with David the TSDA. But so far, he is still unable to comprehend Gospel Reform.

Sal said: He complains that the questions I receive are from my “friends” (I see that he calls them “partners” to you). Since most of the questions I receive are hostile I believe that David R. and I have a whole different idea of what a friend is.

Tom said: Most of the questions put to you are hostile, repetitive, and argumentative; they come from the cultic minds of the TSDA’s. They are only interested in defending and proving their views, not in searching for more truth. They think they have all the truth they need, while all others are wrong.

Here is one on my many replies to David:

See: The Fraud of Traditional Adventism
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=235

Sal said: It’s laughable that he is so sure that you, a life long SDA, are a Catholic Jesuit spy!

Tom said: It is also laughable that he is so certain about the validity of the IJ, Tithe, and the doctrine of abstinence, along with many other errors.

However, it is sad to see people so sure they are correct, when they are not even close. This is the great sin of the Laodiceans, including the SDA’s. This is why they have been declared “blind” and unsaved by Christ in Rev 3: 14.

Sal said: I have found that if you disagree with a TSDA they cannot believe that you are honest and sincere in your criticism, but you must be a demon trying to destroy the SDA Church.

Tom said: This is how the SDA’s are. They get this from their incompetent, cultic leaders, who happily use a multi-billion dollar propaganda machine to promote their confused religious agenda.

Today, the SDA church is wealthy; they have a highly organized marketing machine that promotes their religious brand through millions of books and magazines, as well as on radio, TV, and many Online web sites.

Which proves that any modern church, with billions of $$, can revise history and re-invent their own religion, fooling millions in the process. Many people are easily fooled.

But the game is over for the double-talking SDA’s. They have been caught being very dishonest and wrong about many things, which is why millions have left them, and why the number of critics are increasing by the day. They cannot grow in North America until they make major reforms.

Their zeal for tradition and law keeping has made them very dismissive of new truth, even dishonest and unreasonable. They are full of cultic double-talk, unable to use proper hermeneutics or sources. This is why they need to repent and reform.

Sal said: It's wonderful when one two Christians can disagree and not think that the other is of the devil.

Tom said: Those that claim to follow Christ should be able to show love to their fellow Christians, even as they study the Word, in the Spirit, reasoning together like Christians.

The fruits of the Spirit are not legalistic, nor do they include “strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions.”

The TSDA’s do not live by the Spirit, but by law. Thus they do not know how to walk by the Spirit. This explains why they are unable to learn the Gospel. And why they go around trying to convince the world that obedience to the 4th Commandment is so important. But it is not. Only obedience to the Gospel can save. There is no such thing as OC Sabbath keeping in the NC.

The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

Gal. 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

Gal. 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

Gal. 5:15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

Gal. 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

Gal. 5:17 For the flesh 1sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

Gal. 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Gal. 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,

Gal. 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

Gal. 5:21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal. 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Gal. 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Sal said: Thank you for helping me to see the great difference between SDA’s, like yourself, and those SDA’s like David R.

Tom said: First off, I want to apologize for the rude and annoying ways of the SDA’s. They have made more enemies than friends over the years with their dishonest double-talk and doctrinal arrogance. Which explains why there are so many SDA critics everywhere. You are just one of many, and so too am I.

There is no excuse or justification for what the SDA’s teach or for how they act towards those that question their doctrines. They are obviously not honest, nor do they have any intention of carefully following the NT or even their own Pioneers, like Ellen White.

Second, the “great difference” between a “reformed” SDA and a Traditional SDA is the Gospel. This is the first Pillar of the Three Angels Messages, and if this primary doctrine is wrong, so too is everything else.

New Covenant SDA’s have repented of the IJ, Tithe, and OC Sabbath keeping, etc. They embrace the correct Gospel and the true fundamentals of the Three Angels Messages.

By contrast, the TSDA’s refuse to repent of their many errors, thinking they have none. They love the law, the IJ, Tithe, and OC Sabbath keeping, even as they look for the Sunday laws to start the Tribulation. The true Gospel is unknown to them.

At some point it is hoped that the Reformed, Gospel based, SDA’s will emerge from within the Adventist Community to correct the record and move the church forward within the Three Angels Messages.

Although the Advent Movement today appears irrelevant, corrupt, and self-destructing, this is not the end of Adventism. Its’ greatest days are ahead if only they will be honest and repent of their many errors and false doctrines.

The Advent Movement has an important, prophetic mission to complete, and it is time for the SDA’s to wake up and stop acting so foolish. It is time for serious and credible Gospel eschatology that will finish the work of the church.

Matt. 25:1 “Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

Matt. 25:2 “Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent.

Matt. 25:3 “For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,

Matt. 25:4 but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps.

Matt. 25:5 “Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.

Matt. 25:6 “But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’

Matt. 25:7 “Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.

Matt. 25:8 “The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’

Matt. 25:9 “But the prudent answered, ‘No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.’

Matt. 25:10 “And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.

Matt. 25:11 “Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’

Matt. 25:12 “But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’

Matt. 25:13 “Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

Let all Laodiceans, regardless of the denominational affiliation, become honest with the Gospel and the Word, ever on the alert for the 2nd Coming.

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform

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