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Tom said:
Luke 6:5 must be connected to Matt 12:1-8, and to Mark 2: 25-28, not to Luke 24: 44. These are parallel passages about the Sabbath that contain no hint that Jesus was fulfilling the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Tom, this passage does not say what the future holds for this law. He does not talk about His coming Kingdom as having a Sabbath, you assume that. He gave the Sabbath to an overworked, abused people that needed rest from being under the thumb of the Pharaoh. Your argument is putting Sabbath as more important that the Kingdom of God, and Jesus the Lord of the Sabbath. He makes no declaration if it is going to be a NC behavior standard that is your assumption and a manmade assumption at that. Under the OT, you had to wait 7 days for physical rest, the fulfilled Sabbath is Jesus Christ as our Peace giver,and Savior. We can have the peace from forgiveness of sin and assurance of salvation anytime. That is a better promise of the New Covenant. You dare to put the shadow in front of the reality. Col 2:17.
Last edited by bob_2 (09-07-13 5:52 pm)
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Tom you claim that I by quoting Luke 24:44 and not 44-49, am doing something to fool people reading. Read the whole passage there is nothing that supports a reformed Sabbath, where is the command to keep the Sabbath in His coming Kingdom? He instruct the infant Christian disciples/apostles to wait for the pouring out of the Holy Spirit that they needed for further understanding as they preached the Gospel. He opened their minds at this occasion so they could have discernment of what he was saying.
Luke 24: 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
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Tom, here is God through Moses telling Israel about Jesus coming and that he will have God's words in his mouth:
Deut 19:15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”
17 The Lord said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”
Tom said:
Where does Moses and the OT teach that the Messiah was to fulfill the Sabbath? Where is this “written”? Show us where anyone in the Bible teaches that Christ is to “fulfill” the Sabbath?
Where are these passages? Where is even one?
Answer: NOWHERE! There is no such prophecy or passage, so how can there be any fulfillment? Jesus teaches no such point.
God foretold of Jesus coming with God's words in His mouth. No assumptions needed, Tom, as you are doing. You need to quit using every declaration of death to everyone that engages a conversation with you. I know of least one that has told me they will not converse with you because of this trait that is portrayed in all it's ugliness in this post. Pray for forgiveness for yourself, Tom. I will let the Bible speak for itself. 2 Cor 3:7 Heb 8:13 and there are others that tell that the Decalogue is part of the Old Covenant, Tom, it is plain to see, unless you, the SDAs and Ford, separate Old Covenant from the Decalogue which is the central piece of that Covenant, you are using Covenant Theology, like most Evangelical Churches do, also, and picking and choosing what parts of the OT/OC you will bring through to the NT/NC, when in Col 2:16, 17 talks of a fulfillment of the old ceremonies and holy days. .
Last edited by bob_2 (09-07-13 3:50 pm)
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Bob 2 said: Tom, this passage (Mark 2:27) does not say what the future holds for this (Sabbath) law.
Tom said: This text, and others like it, shows what Jesus teaches and believes about the 7th day Sabbath. He declares it was made for mankind at the very beginning of time, and he is making no changes to remove or abolish this basic viewpoint.
While this passage “does not say what the future holds for this law,” other texts do. So don’t worry, the Gospels are full of Jesus’ Sabbath teaching. No need to assume anything.
When you study the many Sabbath passages together, a complete picture will emerge. But it all starts with this fundamental point that in the beginning; the 7th day Sabbath was made for man. Not for the Jews only, but for all mankind, --through the NC church.
You have stated many times that you do not believe this point. So you and Jesus are at odds.
You can follow Zaspel and Wells if you want, but I will follow Jesus. I will follow the Word and embrace the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. You are free to follow NCT and a false Christ if you wish.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
Bob 2 said: He does not talk about His coming Kingdom as having a Sabbath, you assume that.
Tom said: The NC Sabbath doctrine is part of the Gospel teaching of the kingdom of heaven. It is a NC doctrine of Christ, recorded in all four Gospels. To deny this is to deny Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath.
Matt. 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Matt. 4:23 Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.
Matt. 5:19 “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
John 14:1 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
To “believe in Christ” means to embrace what he teaches about all things, including the Sabbath. Those who take positions different from Christ, are not following him.
The majority that hear the “words of the kingdom,” which include Jesus’ reformed and active Sabbath, do not comprehend it. They are confused and easily made into non-believers. To reject the Sabbath of Christ is to reject him, and most of the Jews did just that. Why are you acting like the Jews?
Matt. 13:19 “When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
Bob, this sounds like you, and the many other confused souls that cannot understand what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. But this is normative and expected, because few are able to comprehend the Gospel, or the NC Sabbath of Christ, which is a part of it.
Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Bob 2 said: He gave the Sabbath to an overworked, abused people that needed rest from being under the thumb of the Pharaoh.
Tom said: Wrong! The Sabbath doctrine was made, by Christ, at the end of the Creation week, long before the Jews existed. Thus it was given to all mankind at the beginning of Creation. Not to the Jews who did not exist at this time.
Moreover, Adam and Eve did not need rest, nor were they abused or “overworked.” So you are very confused about the original Sabbath doctrine, which was made long before the Jews or Egyptians existed.
The Creation Sabbath was not like the OC Sabbath; it was like the NC Sabbath of Christ. Why? Because there were no rules or laws against work on the 7th day. That situation was changed under the OC, when the law was given to the Jewish slaves who had escaped from Egypt.
The Jewish slaves were a very rough bunch, and they needed the law to teach them right from wrong, and how to behave. Thus the OC Sabbath Law contained a “schoolmaster” or training Sabbath. It was a temporary doctrine that would be updated by Christ when the time was right for the Gospel to be preached.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
1Tim. 1:6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,
1Tim. 1:7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
1Tim. 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
1Tim. 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
1Tim. 1:10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
The Law is not for the righteous, which are those who follow Christ. Rather, it for those who are out of control and know not the Gospel. The Jews needed law, not Gospel. The former was to prepare them for the latter.
No doctrine is more reflective of the Gospel than the NC Sabbath of Christ. Here is a Gospel doctrine where all have been given permission by Christ to break the 4th Commandment and not be guilty.
Such a doctrine enraged the Jews, even as it will do the same for all legalists today.
Thus the law is subordinated to Faith in Christ in a very practical, public, and cyclical manner. The Reformed Sabbath now becomes a monument not only to the Creation of the world, but also to the Gospel, which has freed us from the guilt of the law.
Those who live by faith in the words of Christ will understand and embrace what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath and rejoice. Those who do not, - will disbelieve and attack Gospel doctrine, promoting myths and error instead. (This is you Bob).
Gal. 3:12 the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”
The NC Sabbath of Christ is a public badge of Gospel comprehension. Those who embrace it are following the Good Shepherd.
Those who do not understand it, - do not understand the Gospel, nor do they believe the words of Christ. They are lost.
Bob 2 said: Your argument is putting Sabbath as more important that the Kingdom of God, and Jesus the Lord of the Sabbath.
Tom replied: It is JESUS’ argument and teaching that the Sabbath is very important, even as it was made by him for all mankind at Creation. His reformed Sabbath doctrine is part of the Kingdom of God, even enjoying the explicit endorsement from God the Father. Reject the Gospel Sabbath and you will not be admitted into the Kingdom of God.
The Sabbath, as taught by Christ, (not Moses) has been forever made a large part of NC theology by Christ, who declared himself to be its’ protector and definer.
However, do not be confused; the active Sabbath doctrine of Christ is very different from the OC Sabbath of the Jews and the SDA’s. It is the opposite of what they teach. That is why the Jews become so upset with Jesus. He was overturning the Sabbath law by promoting work on the 7th day. This is why many today will reject the correct Sabbath, thinking they are doing the right thing. But they are legalists and Judaizers, who do not understand the Gospel.
Bob 2 said: He (Jesus) makes no declaration if it is going to be a NC behavior standard that is your assumption and a manmade assumption at that.
Tom said: The Gospel Teaching of Christ includes the topic of the Sabbath. What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath IS NC theology and doctrine for the church. This idea that Jesus was teaching OC theology is absurd and outrageous. He was teaching the correct doctrine of the Sabbath for the church.
In fact, there are numerous Sabbath debates where Jesus’ Sabbath behavior and theology was condemned by the Jewish leaders. What Jesus teaches in response to these charges, is instruction for the church. This is why there is so much of it in the Gospels. Heaven loves the doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, and so too does Christ.
The Sabbath was a major topic for Jesus, and it is very dishonest to claim it was a minor point, much less that he taught no such doctrine.
Jesus makes it clear how all that follow him are to act on the 7th day Gospel Sabbath. He is the Good Shepherd, and we must only follow what he teaches about the Sabbath. The fact that so few know what he teaches is beside the point.
Those that want to understand the Sabbath, must go to Christ in the Gospels and learn from him. He is the teacher and we the students.
Luke 6:40 “ A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
Those who are “fully trained” in the Gospel will understand what Jesus, the head theologian of the church, teaches about the NC Sabbath.
Those who embrace NCT, or the SDA OC Sabbath, are failing Gospel 101. They are not following Jesus whatsoever, even as they teach others to also repudiate the Words of Christ about the 4th Commandment.
All had better repent if they want Eternal life, and only embrace what Jesus teaches about the Gospel Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: Under the OT, you had to wait 7 days for physical rest, the fulfilled Sabbath is Jesus Christ at our Peace giver, and Savior. You dare to put the shadow infront of the reality. Col 2:17.
Tom said: Jesus does not teach a “fulfilled” Sabbath or a “resting” Sabbath. If you had read the Gospels correctly, you would know this theological fact and stop making a fool of yourself.
Jesus teaches an active, working Sabbath, where there is no guilt associated with work on the 7th day.
Such a doctrine of the Sabbath is the opposite of what the SDA’s teach and so too all others. Which is why they must all repent for getting the Gospel and the Sabbath of Christ so wrong.
Moreover, the fact you think the NC Sabbath is about “resting,” also proves you are not following Jesus. The living Christ NEVER TAUGHT A RESTING SABBATH, nor does the NT show him resting on the 7th day. So here is another error that you hold.
It was the OC Sabbath that forced rest on all but the Levites. The NC Sabbath does no such thing, because the followers of Christ are NC Priests, who are also allowed to work on the Sabbath. THIS is what Jesus teaches about the 4th Commandment.
In the last days, the entire Laodicean church is prophesied by Christ to be blind and wrong about the Gospel. And so they are; not one has the correct doctrine of the Sabbath as a result. Not even the SDA’s who claim to be the Sabbath experts.
This must be corrected, and at some point it will be.
Matt. 24:14 “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.
Bob 2 said: Tom you claim that I by quoting Luke 24:44 and not 44-49, am doing something to fool people reading.
Tom said: First off, it was wrong to connect Luke 6:5 with Luke 24:44. There is no connection as you pretend. Jesus never said he fulfilled the Sabbath in any passage, much less in Luke 24: 44-49. So you are trying to fool everyone with this stunt.
You are trying to show that Jesus said he fulfilled the Sabbath, when he never said that. This error is what NCT features, not the NT.
The fact that you would try to make Jesus say what you want to hear, by twisting the scripture is despicable and blasphemous. You are proving to all that you do not follow Christ, but rather, you want to manipulate his words to bless your errors. You are playing with fire my friend.
Jesus’ declaration to defend and protect the Sabbath, as its’ Lord and creator, is not to be associated with what Christ said in Luke 24: 44. These two passages are not associated in any way. You are mishandling the Word to support error.
I repeat: Luke 6:5, which is about the Sabbath, must be connected to Matt 12:1-8, and to Mark 2: 25-28, which are also about the same point, NOT to Luke 24: 44, which is not talking about the Sabbath, but about the Suffering Messiah fulfilling what was written about him.
The former three are parallel passages about the Sabbath, while Luke 24: 44-49 contains no hint about Jesus fulfilling the Sabbath.
Luke 6:5 And He was saying to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
I repeat: Stop this awful “proof-texting” that the SDA’s taught you. One can prove anything by the indiscriminate linking of certain texts together, and this is what you have done. But alas, you have been caught mishandling the Word for all to see.
Furthermore, once you found a text that suited your false theology, Luke 24:44, (because it contained the word “fulfilled”), you still failed to quote the proper context of that passage. Why did you only quote v 44 and ignore v 45 or 46 or 47?
Answer: because the context would show that the Sabbath is not being discussed. Which was the whole point of your linking this passage to Luke 6: 5.
You are either very dishonest or very incompetent. Which is it? Probably both. Pitiful and sad.
A wolf in sheep’s clothing always plays games with the Words of Christ. And so too those sheep of another shepherd. They also refuse to follow the Good Shepherd.
Those who follow Jesus cannot be so dishonest and reckless with his Words. Thus, you have been exposed as the unbeliever you are for all to see. No Eternal life for you.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Bob 2 said: Read the whole passage there is nothing that supports a reformed Sabbath, where is the command to keep the Sabbath in His coming Kingdom?
Tom said: Stop quoting the wrong passages, and stop pretending Jesus teaches no doctrine of the Sabbath for the church. Such views are anti-Christ and delusional. The Gospels are full of Jesus NC Sabbath instruction. However, those that are spiritually blind do not see his Gospel doctrine clearly. They are blind. So be it.
Bob 2 said: He instructs the infant Christian disciples/apostles to wait for the pouring out of the Holy Spirit that they needed for further understanding as they preached the Gospel. He opened their minds at this occasion so they could have discernment of what he was saying.
Tom replied: Wrong. The HS cannot promote new theology; much less take any views against Jesus. The HS does not support false doctrine, much less this idea that Christ has abolished the Sabbath. Sorry. You are lost in a fog my friend.
Bob 2 quoted: Luke 24: 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Tom said: Stop misreading the Gospels. Jesus never taught anyone that he fulfilled Sabbath, much less that it was abolished or changed to Sunday or Everyday. It is madness to take such views.
There is no passage where Christ teaches he fulfilled the Sabbath. NONE! This is what you desperately need to find if you have any hope of defending NCT. But alas, there is no such passage anywhere in the Bible, much less in the Gospels. So give up NCT and learn the correct Gospel Sabbath from Christ. This is your only hope.
Matt. 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
Bob 2 said: Tom, here is God through Moses telling Israel about Jesus coming and that he will have God's words in his mouth:
Deut 19:15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him…
Tom replied: This passage does not help your case. I agree that all should listen to Christ about everything, including the Gospel Sabbath. Thus, all should repent of their false views and stop promoting false doctrine that Christ does not teach.
Note what happens to those who misquote Jesus and take positions that he did not take: “But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”
Those who claim Jesus teaches a “fulfilled” Sabbath or even a Sunday Sabbath, are deserving of death for such false doctrine. This goes double for the SDA’s who have the right day but the wrong Sabbath doctrine.
Eternal death awaits all that embrace false, anti-Christ doctrine. NCT is poison, and so too the many false versions of the Sabbath, including what the SDA’s teach.
What you need to find is a passage that proves the OC Sabbath is going to be removed and changed to an Every Day spiritual rest in Christ. But there is no such passage or doctrine. Sorry. You are chasing phantom doctrines that lead to death.
Where does Moses and the OT teach that the Messiah was to fulfill the Sabbath? Where is this “written”? Show us where anyone in the Bible teaches that Christ is to “fulfill” the Sabbath? Where are these passages? Where is even one?
Answer: NOWHERE!
There is no such prophecy or passage, so how can there be any fulfillment? Jesus teaches no such point.
However, Jesus does reference this passage from Moses in a long Sabbath debate with the Pharisees. (Here are 47 verses about the NC Sabbath in John 5.)
In defense of his Reformed and active Sabbath, Jesus claims that he is the one Moses said would come to Israel. Here Jesus laments the fact that the Jews are rejecting his NC Sabbath. His words also count for those today who do the same thing.
John 5:45 “Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
John 5:46 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
John 5:47 “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
I suggest that you read the book of John and see how much it contains about the NC Sabbath. Besides John 5, there are many other such passages about the Sabbath.
Actually John starts out with a reference to the Sabbath, which Jesus made at creation. No wonder he proclaimed himself in charge of the Sabbath doctrine. No wonder it was special to him.
Bob 2 said: God foretold of Jesus coming with God's words in His mouth. No assumptions needed, Tom, as you are doing.
Tom said: You are a blind man. I am making no assumptions except that the NT is true.
Jesus claimed that his working, NC Sabbath came from God. Read John 5 if you don’t believe me. But the Jews refused to believe Christ or his new views of the Sabbath.
All that think like the unbelieving Jews, who rejected the Reformed Sabbath of Christ, will share their fate of condemnation. This is not an assumption or an opinion, but what the NT teaches. You can either believe it or not.
Bob 2 said: You need to quit using every declaration of death to everyone that engages a conversation with you. I know of least one that has told me they will not converse with you because of this trait that is portrayed in all it's ugliness in this post.
Tom replied: Ha! Those who promote false doctrine and dishonest church history should think twice before they try to promote their delusions to Tom Norris. But I welcome any and all that have something to share or discuss.
However, this discussion about Adventist Reform is not for amateurs or the dishonest of heart. I would much prefer having a discussion about NCT with Zaspel or Wells, so we could get to the point. But they would fare no better than the others who also feature false and absurd doctrines.
Some so-called experts have tried, like Clifford Goldstein or that Aussie, Herb K who tried to prove the IJ correct. However, these “empty suites” always end up running away, embarrassed and angry because they have been proven so incompetent and wrong about the Gospel and church history.
See: IJ Discussion: Tom Norris & Herb Kersten
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1173
Clifford Goldstein & the IJ
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/288.htm
Goldstein Refuses to Debate Issues
http://www.atomorrow.com/cgibin/discus/ … 0&page=787
Moreover, we are not having a pointless or trite conversation, but rather, we are promoting a paradigm changing discussion that will save the Advent Movement and rebrand it correctly. There is no room for Gospel myths, half-truths, or any more false doctrine. It is time for Gospel Reform within the self-destructing Advent Movement.
Those like yourself, who have left Adventism and now support NCT, are helping move Adventist Reform forward because these false views about the Sabbath have been destroyed for all to see. The more you try to defend NCT, the worse it appears. No surprise here. NCT is as bad as the IJ. Both are false doctrines and great error.
The Advent Movement cannot go forward until they get the Sabbath doctrine correct. NCT is not the answer. But the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ is present truth for the last church.
Bob 2 said: Pray for forgiveness for yourself, Tom.
Tom said: Ha! Since when is it sinful to expose and destroy false doctrine? I find it comical when wolves try to pretend they are sheep. It never goes well for these snarling creatures, which are easily upset by the Gospel facts.
Pay attention: Those who understand the Gospel are not to be instructed by those fools that don’t understand it. You are the latter. You have no idea how to read the scriptures correctly.
You have lost this debate long ago my friend. You have been rebuked for good cause and you need to repent, and so too any that think like you.
2Tim. 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2Tim. 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Bob 2 said: I will let the Bible speak for itself. 2 Cor 3:7 Heb 8:13 and there are others that tell that the Decalogue is part of the Old Covenant,
Tom said: I note that you failed to quote from Christ. Could this be because you are not familiar enough with what he teaches about the Sabbath? We are discussing the Sabbath of Christ. So you need to be quoting Christ in this discussion, or you are disqualified.
However, the last time you tried, you incorrectly connected Luke 6: 5, about the Sabbath, with a very different discussion by Christ in Luke 24. It was obvious you were trying to put false doctrines in the mouth of Christ by manipulating his words. So you need to learn how to quote Christ and how to study the Gospels.
Such a poor hermeneutic proves that you have no idea what Jesus is really teaching about the Sabbath. It also shows that this discussion is beyond your ability, education, and experience to understand.
Like the Jews that also rejected the Sabbath of Christ, you do not know how to let the Bible “speak for itself.” If you did, then you too would embrace the Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
If you were following the genuine Christ, you would be learning from Jesus, in the Gospels, instead of running away from his words. But at this point, you are following a different Christ, a fraud, that is leading you to Eternal Death. Sad.
Bob 2 said: Tom, it is plain to see, unless you, the SDAs and Ford, separate Old Covenant from the Decalogue which is the central piece of that Covenant, you are using Covenant Theology, like most Evangelical Churches do, also, and picking and choosing what parts of the OT/OC you will bring through to the NT/NC, when in Col 2:16, 17 talks of a fulfillment of the old ceremonies and holy days.
Tom said: First off, who are you to instruct Dr. Ford? You are not fit to dust his library. As if you were an expert, NT scholar like him. You have no such credentials, experience, or skills to make such criticism. You are way out of your league. You don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to the Two Covenants or the Gospel.
If you want to understand the NC Sabbath, you must read the Gospels and learn directly from Christ. Stop running to others, like Paul, or Wells and Zaspel, in the hope you can find something to contradict what Jesus teaches.
Such behavior proves you dishonest, even as it also shows that you lack the training and discipline to understand the Bible. You need to repent before it is too late. It may already be. The cultic SDA’s have ruined your mind, leaving you a lost and confused soul. Sad.
I suggest that you complete your book review, and get to the point of NCT, which is to remove the 7th day Sabbath.
Book Review of New Covenant Theology:
by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1180
Get ready to cry a river of tears as your heroes, Zaspel and Wells, are shown by Tom Norris to be pushing absurd and false doctrine. Their theology is anti-Christ, even as it pretends to be pro-Christ. NCT has betrayed the Gospel, and so too anyone that embraces this traitorous double-talk.
Go ahead, get to it.
“What you do, do quickly.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom uses this verse to make the point that it says :
Matt. 5:19 “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
In context Tom:
Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Now read Luke 24:44 to see he claims to have fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, the whole of the OT/OC.
Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
He has ushered his Kingdom in with His death, with a New Covenant built on better promises. Tom did He or did He not fulfill the Law and the Prophets as He said He did? Are you calling Jesus a liar???
Hebrews 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
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Bob, you are a hopeless case. This discussion seems beyond your comprehension. So long as you refuse to read the Bible honestly, you will remain blind and confused, unable to understand the Gospel of Christ, much less his NC Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: Tom we are making progress, when you admit the Decalogue was fulfilled in Jesus along with those things in Luke 24:44.
Tom said: How does one “fulfill” the 10 Commandments, so as to use them up? The Moral law is not prophecy to fulfill, nor is it something that can be dismissed or ignored. It still exists even though it is subordinated to Faith in Christ.
However, those that follow Christ can fulfill the law by loving our neighbor, which is the command of Jesus. So love fulfills the law. It does not remove the law.
Rom. 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Gal. 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
When Jesus speaks about “fulfilling” the scriptures, he is not talking about “fulfilling” the Moral law, much less the Sabbath.
Rather, he is talking about the going to the cross. He is not talking about the doctrine of the Sabbath. Nor was Moses or any prophet.
Just look at this passage when Jesus was captured by his enemies and see what he says is “fulfilled:”
Matt. 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.
Matt. 26:53 “Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve 1alegions of angels?
Matt. 26:54 “How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?”
Matt. 26:55 At that time Jesus said to the crowds, “Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me as you would against a robber? Every day I used to sit in the temple teaching and you did not seize Me.
Matt. 26:56 “But all this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures of the prophets.” Then all the disciples left Him and fled.
It is plain and very clear what is being fulfilled, and it is not the doctrine of the Sabbath.
Those who claim that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath are taking positions that Jesus never took. They are inserting fiction into the Gospel Record and repudiating the words of Christ.
Here is another passage that makes the same point. Understand that the Passion Week was the FULFILLMENT of scripture. NOT THE SABBATH DOCTRINE. Listen to Christ and learn:
Mark 14:48 And Jesus said to them, “Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me, as you would against a robber?
Mark 14:49 “Every day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize Me; but this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures.”
Mark 14:50 And they all left Him and fled.
Did you see it? In v 49, Jesus declares that his capture “has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures.”
There are other specific points of the Gospel Story where the “scriptures were fulfilled,” but none of them have anything to do with the doctrine of the Sabbath.
This false theology of NCT cannot be tolerated. It is an outrageous and very wrong view. There is no excuse for such a dishonest position that is so easily refuted.
If Jesus “fulfilled” the Sabbath and then “abolished” it; there must be a number of passages where Jesus says precisely this. But alas, there is no such passage or doctrine.
Here is some more “fulfilled” prophecy about the Messiah. It has nothing to do with the Sabbath.
Matt. 27:7 And they conferred together and with the money bought the Potter’s Field as a burial place for strangers.
Matt. 27:8 For this reason that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day.
Matt. 27:9 Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “AND THEY TOOK THE THIRTY PIECES OF SILVER, THE PRICE OF THE ONE WHOSE PRICE HAD BEEN SET by the sons of Israel;
Matt. 27:10 AND THEY GAVE THEM FOR THE POTTER’S FIELD, AS THE LORD DIRECTED ME.”
Did you see it? V9 is not speaking about the Sabbath being “fulfilled” is it?
I suggest that you look up the word “fulfilled” in the NT and educate yourself on how it is used. This idea that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath or the Moral Law is utter nonsense and fiction.
John 13:18 “I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.’
John 15:25 “But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.’
John 17:12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
Acts 1:16 “Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.
Acts 3:18 “But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
The word “fulfilled” appears in the Bible 44 times. At no time is there any connection or reference to the Sabbath. Those who claim Jesus “fulfilled” the Sabbath are inserting fiction into the Gospel Story. They are repudiating Christ and the scriptures.
Also look up the word “fulfill.” It is used 42 times. There is no connection to the Sabbath in any one of these passages.
Matt. 8:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: “HE HIMSELF TOOK OUR INFIRMITIES AND CARRIED AWAY OUR DISEASES.”
Matt. 13:35 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:
“I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES;
I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.”
Mark 14:49 “Every day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize Me; but this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures.”
John 15:25 “But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.’
John 19:24 So they said to one another, “Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, to decide whose it shall be”; this was to fulfill the Scripture: “THEY DIVIDED MY OUTER GARMENTS AMONG THEM, AND FOR MY CLOTHING THEY CAST 1LOTS.”
John 19:28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, *said, “I am thirsty.”
John 19:36 For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE 1BROKEN.”
While there are many passages stating that Jesus “fulfilled” the OT scriptures, this fulfillment had nothing to do with the Sabbath doctrine. Jesus did not “fulfill” the Sabbath or abolish it, nor did he teach such theology. But he did reform it for the church. To understand the Gospel of Christ is to understand the 7th day Gospel Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: However, you have a set back when you use Luke 6:5 to talk about continuation of the 4th Commandment. It is fulfilled.
Tom said: You poor confused soul. The NC Sabbath of Christ is not a “continuation” of the OC Sabbath of the Jews. Why would you say such a thing?
Jesus gives all an exemption from the rules against work on the Sabbath. He is changing the OC Sabbath, where work is sinful. In the NC version, it is not.
So the 4th Commandment is not being “continued” as before. Jesus teaches a very different and active 7th day Sabbath for the Church.
Bob 2 said: The whole paragraph in Luke is talking about authority, the Pharisees are questioning what he says is right or wrong on the original law.
Tom said: Luke 1-12 is a Gospel debate featuring the NC Sabbath versus the OC Sabbath. Jesus claims he has the authority to reform the Sabbath and to work on the 7th day, but the Jews disagreed. They would not believe he was the Son of God.
Bob 2 said: He has the authority to take that obsolete law whichever way he wants or to not include it at all as He declares he is Lord of the Sabbath.
Tom said: Ha! So Jesus is a lawless double-talker? This is nonsense.
We don’t have to assume anything about the NC Sabbath, Jesus teaches plenty on this topic. He teaches that he is the Lord of the original Sabbath, and so too of the reformed, Gospel Sabbath. Neither of which are abolished.
Bob 2 said: What you need to answer, is what is contained in the new standards of behavior, Christ's Law.
Tom said: The teachings of Jesus are clear about how we are to act. He has also made plain how the NC Sabbath is to be observed, and it is not like the OC Sabbath whatsoever. That Sabbath did not allow work, Jesus’ NC Sabbath does.
Bob 2 said: What he says about the Sabbath is more important because it is about the rest he promises to the believer in the New and Better Covenant. See Heb 8:6 below.
Tom said: I agree that what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath is important. Why don’t you listen to what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath and embrace it?
Bob 2 said: He declares Himself more important than the day and can take it whichever way he wants in the New Covenant of which He is the Advocate (1 John 2:1) and Mediator (Hebrews 9:15).
Tom said: Jesus teaches what he teaches about the NC Sabbath. He has made it clear for those who want to know the correct Sabbath doctrine. We either follow him or not.
Bob 2 said: He declares himself more important than the Temple.
Tom said: Correct. Which is why we must listen to what he teaches about the Sabbath, and all else.
Bob 2 said: He redefines the word work, probably leaving the leaders confused.
Tom said: Jesus did not redefine the word work. But he did redefine the doctrine of the Sabbath.
The 4th Commandment did not allow work on the 7th day. Period. No fires, no cooking, no travel, etc. Jesus took the opposite position. He did not “redefine” the definition of work, or change the day of worship to Sunday, or teach an Every Day spiritual Sabbath. Rather, he redefined the doctrine of the 7th day SABBATH for the church.
Bob 2 said: They were questioning His authority.
Tom said: Correct. The Jews refused to believe that Jesus was the Lord of anything, much less the Sabbath. However, those who did believe embraced Jesus’ active and reformed NC Sabbath and thanked God for the Gospel.
So here is a good test to see if one is following the genuine Christ: do they embrace what Jesus’ teaches about the Sabbath? Yes or No?
Bob, you have failed the test.
Bob 2 said: He proceeds in the next verses to declare what he is saying is from God Himself: John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer:
“Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
This is not a mere redo of the Old Covenant and the Decalogue contained in it. He is advancing to new standards as outlined in the Sermon on the Mount and other teachings.
Tom said: This passage shows Jesus defending his reformed Sabbath doctrine. Here Christ invokes God the father in support of his updated NC Sabbath. He does this in other places as well.
Bob 2 said: As He teaches more than ten commandments new standards start to "pile" up as part of "Christ's Law", the new standards of behavior.
Tom said: Jesus teaches a deeper meaning about the law. Thus, even our thoughts can be sinful, even if our actions are not.
Jesus’ NC Sabbath teaching represents a great change in the 4th Commandment. What he teaches about the Gospel Sabbath is part of Christ’s law. Those who refuse to embrace his Sabbath teaching are not followers of Christ.
Bob 2 said: No longer is it thou shalt not murder, but don't hate your brother. He sets a new standard, which is an expansion of the Old, but by that expansion it becomes new and a better promise.
Tom said: While Jesus gives deeper meaning to the law, applying it to our thoughts as well as our actions, it does not work for the 4th commandment.
If it did, it would look like this: Any that “think” they want to work or play on the 7th day are guilty of Sabbath breaking. But this is not what Jesus teaches. By his authority, he gives an exemption to the rules of the 4th commandment, where it is not a sin to work on the Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: The two verses in Colossians is talking about more than fulfillment of the Sabbath but the whole of the OT/OC
Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Tom said: There are no verses in the Gospels that teach Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath, so let’s make this clear. Nor did the apostles ever make any such statement. So stop inserting your incorrect assumptions into this discussion. Paul has no authority to invent new doctrine, much less to repudiate what Christ has already taught about the Sabbath.
So you must go back to Christ and learn from him. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, not Paul.
Bob 2 said: He in the process has made better promises in the New Covenant and we find the Covenant Theologians like the SDAs, Tom Norris, and the Presbyterian Church of America hanging on to a day, they find more important than the Savior that fulfilled the Sabbath shadow by offering peace through true authentic forgiveness as the New Reality.
Tom said: All churches meet on a weekly basis, as taught by Christ in the Gospels. Most have the wrong day, and all today have the wrong doctrine. The SDA’s switched to the correct day, the 7th, but then they failed to understand and embrace the active and reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ.
So the last church is in a very bad place. No wonder Jesus has judged them blind and wretched. So they all are.
Bob said: Jesus is trying to tell them there is an end game, and He is the judge that will end it with His standards, Christ's Law.
Tom said: Christ’s law INCLUDES his active, NC Sabbath. Those who refuse it, or in your case, fight against it, will not pass the judgment.
Bob 2 said: The rest is obsolete, Heb 8:13. READ THE NEW STANDARDS GIVEN BY HIM, HIS APOSTLES AND OTHERS WRITERS HE COMMISSIONS.
Tom said: The NC Sabbath was a new standard, set by Christ. The OC Sabbath was now obsolete for any that followed Christ. Which is why the Gentiles could join the church and still serve in the Roman Army. There were no longer any rules against doing any kind of work on the 7th day. Otherwise, slaves would not have been able to become Christians either. They all had to work on the 7th day. Which is no problem according to what Christ teaches.
Bob 2 said: Read again what is the New Reality:
Heb 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
Tom said: Jesus teaches a superior, NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath for the church. It was a featured doctrine of his ministry, which explains why there is so much about this topic in the Gospels.
Bob 2 said: Tom you are insisting on a shadow, the Sabbath, I am pointing to the reality, our Savior Jesus Christ.
Tom said: I am insisting that we follow the genuine teachings of Christ in the Gospels. Including what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath.
Those who fail to understand and embrace Jesus’ Sabbath teachings are not following the genuine Christ. They have no real savior.
Bob 2 said: Show me where He commands the Sabbath to be kept in the New Covenant.
Tom said: Jesus often defended his view of the 7th day, even as he teaches that those who refuse it will be lost. He even declared that God the Father told him to teach this new working Sabbath. There are many passages, and we have posted them over and over. The fact that you can never seem to find them speaks volumes.
Bob 2 said: You have not been able other than to show Jesus engages people of His time about the Sabbath which he was obliged to keep, and let not one jot or tittle of the Old Law to be diminished until all was accomplished.
Tom said: Jesus was not obligated to keep the OC Sabbath. Rather, he was obligated to preach the NC Gospel, of which the active and reformed NC Sabbath is a part. If you don’t like what Christ teaches about the Sabbath, and you refuse to believe it, then don’t pretend you follow him. You don’t.
Bob 2 said: Read this passage where Paul puts an asterisk by the Gospel he was given to preach:
Eph 3:7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.
Tom said: This passage does not help your case. If you want to know what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath, then you must go to the Gospels and learn directly from Christ.
Paul is not the Lord of the Sabbath, nor can he save you. I suggest that you go to the source of salvation and first understand what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. At this point you are fighting against his views, just like the Jews.
Bob, why not stop this silly proof texting. It is a false hermeneutic, designed to support false doctrine.
Here is what you are doing:
You have developed a textual formula about the Sabbath that goes like this: Matt 5: 17 + Luke 24: 44 + Hebrews 8:6 = The Sabbath has been fulfilled by Christ.
There are additional anti-Sabbath formulas based on Paul, which is also used by the NCT crowd to support their false and absurd doctrine.
Here is another false formula:
Col. 2:16, 17 + Heb. 10: 1 + Rom. 14:5,6 = Jesus has fulfilled the Sabbath.
There are a number of such misleading textual formulations, some of them with a longer formula, all claiming that “Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath,” or “Jesus is our rest,” no Sabbath needed anymore.
Here is the problem: These doctrinal formulas are driven by the desire to support a pre-determined position. They were not developed within the norms of honest hermeneutics. Nor were they concocted by those looking for truth. Which is why they are worthless and false.
Jesus has spoken so much about the Sabbath in the Gospels, that it is impossible to push forward these silly formulas that do not represent what he (or Paul) actually teach.
These childish and trite formulas are misleading on purpose. But they are not valid because so much data from Christ has been ignored and omitted. As a result, these dishonest, anti-Sabbath formulas do not represent what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath.
The SDA’s do the same thing with their false doctrines. They also link a number of texts together, regardless of the context, claiming they can prove the IJ, Tithe, or that the OC Sabbath is biblical and true. This is utter nonsense by the SDA’s and no doubt this is where you learned how to manipulate the Word.
Those who want to honestly know what Christ teaches about the Sabbath, - must go to him in the Gospels and carefully study all his words on this topic, - always making sure that the proper context is respected.
They are not to ignore Jesus Sabbath teaching, and jump from one text to another unrelated passage, hunting for certain words they like to hear. That is not bible study, but rather, cultic manipulation of the Word.
The words of Christ are ancient, holy, and deep. They cannot be easily understood without serious and honest study of the Gospels. They are not to be reduced to dishonest doctrinal formulas that repudiate what Christ teaches. Shame on all who mishandle the Word. Shame on you Bob.
Matt. 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
Bob 2 quoted: Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Bob 2 then said: Now read Luke 24:44 to see he claims to have fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, the whole of the OT/OC.
Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” He has ushered his Kingdom in with His death, with a New Covenant built on better promises.
Tom said: This passage does not say that Christ fulfilled the Sabbath. This is what you want it to say, and this is what you are trying to make Jesus say, but this is not what he said or even close to what he means. You need to stop trying to force Christ to embrace your false doctrine. He will never do it, nor will the Gospels ever support any false doctrine.
Bob 2 said: Tom did He or did He not fulfill the Law and the Prophets as He said He did? Are you calling Jesus a liar???
Tom replied: You misunderstand what Jesus is saying about the fulfilling of the Law. You are making assumptions that are not true. Neither Moses nor Jesus ever said the Messiah was to fulfill the Sabbath, but yet, you insist that this is what Jesus was doing and teaching. To make matters worse, you base this false doctrine on a poorly developed chain of passages that are taken out of context. You need to repent and learn how to read the Bible correctly, especially the Gospels, where the NC words of Christ are featured.
Internet Full of False Doctrine
While there is Gospel truth online, there is far more error and false doctrine. Caution is necessary when online as most sites are confused and wrong. So don’t be encouraged by those who are embracing the same errors as you. Error is error, regardless how many think it is truth.
Here is a site that agrees with you:
Mission Statement of Got Questions Ministries:
"Got Questions Ministries seeks to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ by providing biblical, applicable, and timely answers to spiritually related questions through an internet presence."
GotQuestions.org is a volunteer ministry of dedicated and trained servants who have a desire to assist others in their understanding of God, Scripture, salvation, and other spiritual topics. We are Christian, Protestant, conservative, evangelical, fundamental, and non-denominational. We view ourselves as a para-church ministry, coming alongside the church to help people find answers to their spiritually related questions.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/about.html#ixzz2enZ6qZcc
Question: "What does it mean that Jesus fulfilled the law, but did not abolish it?"
Answer: … “Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus fulfilled all of the law.
We cannot say that Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial system, but did not fulfill the other aspects of the law. Jesus either fulfilled all of the law, or none of it. What Jesus' death means for the sacrificial system, it also means for the other aspects of the law.”
http://www.gotquestions.org/abolish-fulfill-law.html
Do not be fooled by such error. One of the many problems with this myth that Jesus “fulfilled” everything is that he teaches not all is yet fulfilled. Note this passage about the end of the world and the 2nd Coming, which is not yet fulfilled.
Mark 13:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately,
Mark 13:4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are going to be fulfilled?”
Mark 13:5 And Jesus began to say to them, “See to it that no one misleads you.
Mark 13:6 “Many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He!’ and will mislead many.
Mark 13:26 “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
For anyone to say “Jesus either fulfilled all of the law, or none of it,” is wrong. And so too this associated idea that Jesus fulfilled the 7th day and thus abolished it. Forget this nonsense.
Here is another, more correct view that I also found online in a random search. So truth is out there, - if you want to find it, and if you have the discipline to follow an honest hermeneutic.
Fulfilling the Law:
Unlike the Old Covenant, which required obedience only to the letter of the Law, the New Covenant is based on obedience to the spiritual intent of the Law. For this reason, Christ came as the spiritual Lawgiver to amplify and magnify the laws of God: “The LORD is well pleased for His righteousness’ sake; He will magnify the Law and make it glorious” (Isa. 42:21).
The Gospel accounts of Jesus’ life and ministry reveal that God requires obedience to His commandments not only in the letter of the Law, but in the spirit of the Law as well. Throughout His ministry, Jesus taught repentance from sin—which is clearly defined as the transgression of the laws of God (I John 3:4).
In spite of Jesus’ clear teachings, which magnify the laws and commandments of God, most professing Christians have been taught that Christ came to abolish the laws of God.
Jesus, however, emphatically denounced this idea: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until the heaven and the earth shall pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from the Law until everything has been fulfilled” (Matt. 5:17-18).
How Did Jesus Fulfill the Law?
To comprehend how Jesus fulfilled the Law, we must first understand the meaning of the word fulfill, translated in Matthew 5:17 from the Greek verb pleeroo.
Depending on the context, pleeroo is understood as either:
1) fulfill (do, carry out);
2) bring to full expression, i.e., show forth the true spiritual meaning; or
3) fill up, as in “to complete” (Arndt and Gingrich, A Greek- English Lexicon of the New Testament).
As our spiritual Lawgiver, Christ fulfilled the Law of God by bringing it to its full expression, thus revealing its complete spiritual meaning and intent.
He “filled the Law to the full” by teaching obedience in the spirit of the Law. That is how He magnified the laws and commandments of God and made them honorable.
To fulfill the Law of God by amplifying its meaning and application is the exact opposite of abolishing the Law. If Jesus had come to abolish the laws of God, He would not have magnified and expanded their meaning, making them even more binding.
Jesus taught His disciples the spiritual meaning and application of every one of God’s laws and commandments. (including the 4th)
For example, He magnified the Sixth Commandment by showing that murder begins in the heart and is rooted in hatred and anger (Matt. 5:21-22). The spiritual amplification of the Sixth Commandment extends far beyond the letter of the Law, which judges only physical acts of violence. Under the New Covenant, hatred in one’s heart is judged as murder (1 John 3:15).
This spiritual standard also applies to hatred for an enemy (verses 43-44).
Christ also taught the spiritual meaning and application of the Seventh Commandment. “You have heard that it was said to those in ancient times, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you [as the spiritual Lawgiver], everyone who looks upon a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matt. 5:27-28).
Jesus made the Seventh Commandment far more binding than did the letter of the Law. Thus, every individual is held accountable for his or her adulterous thoughts, even if no physical act is committed.
A thorough study of the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount, as recorded in Matthew 5-7, will show that Jesus revealed the full spiritual meaning of all the commandments of God.
Jesus Brought the Physical Rituals of the Law to Completion:
A second meaning of pleeroo—translated “to fulfill” in Matthew 5:17—is “to complete,” or “bring to completion.” Christ came to bring the entire system of animal sacrifices, temple rituals and laws for the Aaronic priesthood to completion. Through His death, Jesus ended the Old Covenant, which had imposed a system of ritual laws on the children of Israel. In its place, He established the New Covenant, replacing the old requirements of the Law with a higher spiritual application.
The sacrificial laws were brought to completion through the superior sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The sacrifice of Jesus as the “Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world” superseded and replaced all the animal sacrifices and other physical rituals and ceremonies that were performed at the Temple of God in Jerusalem. The apostle Paul confirms the consummation of the sacrificial and ritual system through the one perfect sacrifice of Christ (Heb. 10:5-12).
With the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, the priesthood of Aaron and the Levites came to an end as well. Thus, a physical priesthood was no longer required because Christ was serving as High Priest in heaven, making intercession for the saints before God the Father.
In the same way, the spiritual Temple in heaven has superseded the physical Temple that was on earth. Under the New Covenant, true believers have direct access through prayer to the heavenly throne of God the Father. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father, where He carries out His spiritual work as High Priest (Heb. 10:16-22).
Physical Circumcision Brought to Completion: With the end of the Old Covenant, the requirement for circumcision of the flesh was superseded by spiritual circumcision of the heart. The apostle Paul makes this clear: “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is external in the flesh; rather, he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God” (Rom. 2:28-29).
Spiritual circumcision brings conversion of the mind and heart, which physical circumcision in the flesh cannot accomplish. To be circumcised in the heart, a person must repent of his or her sins and be baptized by full immersion in water. The act of baptism is a type of circumcision because the sins of the flesh are removed. Then, through the laying on of hands, the believer receives the Holy Spirit, converting the heart and mind. The apostle Paul describes the spiritual circumcision that takes place at baptism:
“For in Him [Jesus Christ] dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, Who is the Head of all principality and power in Whom you have also been circumcised with the circumcision not made by hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, by which you have also been raised with Him through the inner working of God, Who raised Him from the dead. For you, who were once dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has now made alive with Him, having forgiven all your trespasses” (Col. 2:9-13).
How Did Christ Fulfill the Prophets?
During Jesus’ life in the flesh, all the Old Testament prophecies concerning His first coming were fulfilled.
These prophecies included His miraculous conception and birth from the virgin Mary,
the flight to Egypt to escape Herod,
the return to Galilee and dwelling in Nazareth,
the announcing of His ministry by John the Baptist,
the healings and mighty works during His ministry,
the preaching of the Gospel throughout the land of Judea and Galilee,
the persecution and suffering that followed,
His death by crucifixion,
the place of His burial,
the time of the resurrection.
Many of the prophecies that were fulfilled concern His suffering and death on the Passover day. Although nearly two thousand years have passed since these prophecies were completed, the many prophecies in both the Old and New Testaments about Christ’s second coming have yet to be fulfilled.
To be sure, every prophecy in the Word of God will be fulfilled in its set time as determined by God the Father (Acts 1:7).
Jesus did not abolish a single prophecy or even a single word of the Old Testament. Again, Jesus said concerning the Scriptures: “For truly I say to you, until the heaven and the earth shall pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from the Law until everything has been fulfilled” (Matt. 5:18).
The Spirit and Intent of the Law and the Prophets:
The purpose of the Law and the Prophets and all the writings of the Old Testament is to teach people to love, worship and obey God, and Him alone.
Christ revealed the spirit and intent of the Law and the Prophets when He was asked by a scribe to name the “greatest” commandment. Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment; and the second one is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets” (Matt. 22:35-40). And again, “Therefore, everything that you would have men do to you, so also do to them; for this is the Law and the Prophets” (Matt. 7:12).
Under the New Covenant, true worship and love toward God is made possible through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which enables the believer to reverence God and obey Him from the heart. Through deep faith in Jesus Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the believer learns to obey every command of God in the full spirit and intent of the Law, as magnified by Jesus Christ.
This is the manner in which every true believer will keep the laws and commandments of God, because he or she loves God the Father and Jesus Christ with all the heart, mind, soul and strength.
http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/SA/SA_fullfilllaw.pdf
Whoever wrote this article understands that there is no such passage in the OT about the Messiah fulfilling the Sabbath. There is just no such doctrine or prophecy. If you think otherwise, then show us or stop making such assumptions as if they were fact.
In conclusion, there is no such Gospel doctrine as, “Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath,” or “Jesus is our Sabbath rest.” These phrases and concepts do not represent what the Bible or Christ teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. In fact, such views greatly contradict what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath.
Christ has spoken so many words about the Sabbath, that only a very spiritually blind person could miss all this holy instruction. In fact, if you looked up every time Jesus used the word “fulfilled” or “Rest,” you will see that he NEVER says he fulfilled the Sabbath or that he was our Sabbath rest. It never happened.
Go ahead; look up all 44 places in the Bible where the word “fulfilled” is used, and note that NONE OF THEM has any reference to the Sabbath.
Why?
Because the Gospel does not teach that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath, or that he is our Sabbath Rest. If you think otherwise, the burden of proof is on you to show Jesus teaching such doctrine. But you can’t do it. Because there is no such doctrine. Sorry.
Only a few will understand the Gospel and correctly believe in Jesus, the Lord of the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath. You are just not one of them. Sad. And neither are the SDA’s, they too have embraced much myth and error about the Sabbath. They have embraced legalsim, just like the Jews they emulate.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Eternal Life is only for those who can understand the Gospel of Christ, and embrace what he teaches about all things, including the active and reformed NC Sabbath. Here is some more fulfilled prophecy about the Christ, it also applies to all those who refuse to embrace his NC teachings, which includes his NC, 7th day Sabbath:
John 12:37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.
John 12:38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?”
John 12:39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
John 12:40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.”
Is anyone listening?
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris, for the active and reformed 7th day Sabbath of Christ.
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Tom, you said the other day that you did not believe that Christ was under the OC and that you did not believe that the OC Law, the ten commandments He had to keep perfectly to be our Savior. Read:
Gal 4:4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.
There are texts repeatedly given to you that shows the 10 Commandments were the Covenant, the core of it:
Exodus 34:27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.
What good is the Decalogue:
Galatians 3:19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator
1Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
Who is the Seed? What happened to the Law when He came? Where their behavior standards given through out the NT. As I have quoted to you before
1 Cor 9:21 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.
Unless you try to separate the parts of the OT/OC to civil, ceremonial, and moral , your interpretation does not work.
Last edited by bob_2 (09-15-13 7:56 pm)
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What I have found that one has to be careful interpreting, Law, command, commandments into "The 10 Commandments" Christ's Law is the standard after the cross. Abraham didn't have the Decalogue to guise Him but his faith in Jesus, before a Savior was born and something that would to be done that could forgive sins.
Tom you need to tonight tone down the condemnation statement. You are a forum Bully who is causing people to not want to participate with you.
Please lets continue to improve on our comity with each other.
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The New Covenant and the Sabbath http://www.gci.org/law/newcovsabb#Work
This is a sermon [excerpt] given by Joseph W. Tkach Sr. in Atlanta, Georgia, December 17, 1994, Santa Barbara, California, December 20, and Big Sandy, Texas, December 24; printed in the Pastor General’s Report, December 21, 1994 and The Worldwide News, January 5, 1995. For its role in our history see A brief history. http://www.gci.org/aboutus/history
..... we are a new covenant church. Our relationship with God is based on faith in Christ, not on the old covenant. Our faith leads us to obey God in different ways from the old covenant. Some old covenant laws remain the same, and some are obsolete, and some are applied in different ways. There is a new covenant between God and his people.
The new covenant is based on faith. There is nothing in the new covenant that says we are required to keep the Sabbath according to the rules of the old covenant. In the New Testament, we see examples of people keeping the Sabbath, and we see statements that tell us the Sabbath is a shadow pointing to the reality, who is Christ. That doesn't mean that the Sabbath is done away, but it means the Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ. It means Christ is more important than the Sabbath. It means the Sabbath rest for Christians in Hebrews 4 is the new life in Christ, not just a day of the week. And Paul tells us in Romans 14 that we should not be involved in disputes over days.
We should hunger and thirst for the things of God. We should desire a better relationship with him and Jesus Christ. That's part of the law written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit under the terms of the new covenant. But that spiritual law demands that we take a less rigid approach to the Sabbath.
Faith causes us to be willing to obey our Lord and Savior in whatever he tells us to do. We see clear commands to love one another, to believe in the Son, to preach the gospel, to work for unity in the faith, to meet together as a Church, to build one another up in the faith, to do good works of service, to lead pure and moral lives, to live peaceably and to forgive those who wrong us.
These new covenant commands are demanding. They absorb all our time. All our days are dedicated to serving Jesus Christ. We need to be busy doing his work always, and it's not the broad and easy path. It's a difficult task, a challenging task, a task that few Christians are willing to do.
Last edited by bob_2 (09-15-13 8:40 pm)
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Bob, you have lost this debate.
You have been unable to show where the Messiah was supposed to “fulfill the Sabbath.” Without such an OT prophecy, NCT falls in a heap of double-talk.
Remember I asked you:
1) Where does Moses and the OT teach that the Messiah was to fulfill the Sabbath? Where is this “written”?
2) Show us where Christ teaches that he is to “fulfill” the Sabbath? Where are these passages?
Answer: NOWHERE!
There is no such prophecy, passage, or fulfillment. Jesus does NOT teach NCT. Such facts are fatal. NCT is as false and convoluted as the IJ.
So Bob, why not admit that you have failed to show Jesus teaching that he “fulfilled” the Sabbath, or that he claims to be our “Sabbath rest.” You have tried, but your position is hopelessly false.
Consequently, you have come nowhere close to defending NCT, much less overturning the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ. Nor will you ever be able to win because the facts are against you. NCT features false doctrine about the Sabbath. Period.
Why not stop while you are so hopelessly behind and repent? Hopefully it is not too late for you.
Again, stop avoiding this major point that disproves NCT. Like I keep saying: Stop misreading the Gospels. Jesus never taught anyone that he fulfilled Sabbath, much less that it was abolished or changed to Sunday or Everyday. It is madness to take such views.
There is no passage in the Bible where Christ teaches he fulfilled the Sabbath or “abolished” the law. NONE! This is what you desperately need to find if you have any hope of defending NCT.
But alas, there is no such passage anywhere, much less in the Gospels. So give up NCT, which is based on myth and fiction, and learn the correct Gospel Sabbath directly from Christ. This is your only hope.
Bob 2 said: Tom, you said the other day that you did not believe that Christ was under the OC and that you did not believe that the OC Law, the ten commandments He had to keep perfectly to be our Savior.
Tom said: I said while Jesus was born under the OC, his mission was to launch the NC Church. To do this, he had to break many of the OC rules, the Sabbath being just one of many. Even his birth was a violation of OC law.
Let all understand that Jesus broke the Sabbath law on purpose. He had a NC Sabbath to promote and that is what he did. The fact so few today have any idea what Jesus teaches in the Gospels, - is beside the point.
Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
Mark 2:24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”
Luke 6:2 But some of the Pharisees said, “Why do you do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”
Jesus never denied he was breaking the Sabbath by working in public on that day. Rather, he explains why he can do this and not be guilty, and why those that follow him can do the same thing and not be guilty of sin.
This legalistic myth that Jesus had to obey all the rules of the OC is utter nonsense. He was often at great odds with the OC law of the Jews, especially the 4th Commandment. Why? Because the OC and the NC do not mix. They are at odds with one another.
Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”
Let all go to the Gospels and learn the NC Sabbath DIRECTLY from Christ. Do not go the SDA’s or to the Sunday keepers, much less to the incoherent NCT crowd that claims Jesus has no weekly Sabbath doctrine for the church.
Only Jesus, the self-proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath has the true Sabbath doctrine for the church. Any that refuse to embrace what he teaches about the Sabbath, are not following Christ; they will not be admitted into the Kingdom of God.
Bob said: Read: Gal 4:4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.
Tom said: This text does not support your NCT point about the Sabbath. Of course Jesus was born an OC Jew, circumcised on the 8th day. Of course he was taught it is sinful to work on the 7th day, except for the Levites. But Jesus was not a Levite.
However, when Jesus started his public promotion of the Gospel, he was launching the NC era. He was starting the Church and subordinating the paradigm of OC law to that of NC faith.
Thus Jesus preached a very different doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath; one that reflected the new doctrine about the priesthood of all believers. This is why the Jews were so angry with him. They did not like any of his NC teaching, especially his reformed and active view of the Sabbath, which was supported theologically by the doctrine of the Priesthood of all believers, which they also hated.
Note that John the Baptist represents the OC, while Jesus the NC. John understood that the OC was being replaced by the NC. He understood that a paradigm change from law to Faith was taking place in front of his eyes. Thus he says:
John 3:30 “He must increase, but I must decrease.
Jesus represents the NC. What he teaches about the 7th day is holy instruction for the church. Period.
When the last church understands the Gospel correctly, they will also comprehend the correct NC Sabbath. It is not Sunday, nor is it what the SDA’s teach, --which is very OC. It is also not what the confused NCT crowd promotes, which is utter nonsense and confusion.
Only Adventist Reform is promoting the genuine Gospel Sabbath of Christ. Here is Present Truth for the SDA church, and all others as well. But many are too blind to comprehend Gospel Truth. They are very much like the Jews. Sad.
Let all understand that the theological completion of Sabbath Reform is here. The Battle Creek SDA’s did not fully understand the Gospel or the 7th day Gospel Sabbath. Had they been honest about 1888 and later about Glacier View in 1980, they would have been able to understand the Gospel and the genuine, NC, Lord’s Day. But their repeated failure to understand the Gospel has made them blind to the 7th day Sabbath of Christ.
The SDA view of the Sabbath is flat out wrong. They did not get this doctrine fully correct as they claim. Now they have another chance. But they are not even looking for new truths. They spend all their resources on trying to convince the world that they have no error or false doctrine. Foolish SDA’s, they are very much like the blind Jews.
Let all understand: - the genuine Gospel Sabbath has been recovered and so too the correct Sabbath doctrine of the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18.
Let all that follow Christ rejoice. However, those who don’t follow him, are free to refute Jesus and his doctrine of the Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: There are texts repeatedly given to you that shows the 10 Commandments were the Covenant, the core of it:
Tom said: I have never said otherwise. Of course the 10 C’s are part of the OC. While Uriah Smith developed a hermeneutic that tried to show that the Moral law was not part of the OC, he was wrong. Very wrong.
The SDA’s are the most confused people in the world when it comes to understanding the Two Covenants. NCT crowd is a close second.
Bob asked: What good is the Decalogue: Who is the Seed? What happened to the Law when He came?
Tom said: The Moral law defines sin. Law is the basis for the Judgment. No Law, no sin or guilt, or even justice. So the law has not been removed, and there will be justice and a judgment one day for the entire world.
Rom. 3:6 …For otherwise, how will God judge the world?
When Jesus came to earth, the world was already condemned by the law. Jesus came to save sinners through the Gospel, which is a paradigm of Faith, not Law.
Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Rom. 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom. 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom. 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom. 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
This idea that the Moral law has been “abolished” is nonsense. If that were the case, there could be no sin, it too would be abolished. All would be free to murder, steal, etc, without consequence or justice. Lawlessness would reign.
1John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
Those who claim the Moral law is “abolished,” are not only wrong, they are fulfilling this very prediction from Christ.
Matt. 24:12 “Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.
Jesus has a lot to say about those who claim the Law “abolished.”
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Matt. 13:41 “The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Jesus does not teach the Moral Law abolished, any more than he teaches a Sunday Sabbath or the IJ.
Rather than “abolished,” the law has been subordinated to Faith in Christ for salvation. Which means those who believe in Christ must understand the deeper meaning of the law, which is part of his “sayings” and “keep them.” This includes what he teaches about the 7th day.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Bob 2 said: Where there behavior standards given through out the NT?
Tom said: Jesus teaches his followers how to think, act, and behave. Such instruction also includes what he teaches about the Moral Law, including the 4th Commandment.
Contrary to popular opinion, Jesus does not teach that the 4th commandment must be kept holy by refraining from work. He teaches the opposite and in fact gives an exemption that allows his followers to work and play on the 7th day.
He does not teach this nonsense Sabbath of NCT, or what the SDA’s or Sunday keepers claim.
Bob 2 said: As I have quoted to you before:
1 Cor 9:21 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.
Tom said: I don’t think you understand this passage very well. Paul does not say that the Moral law is abolished. Rather, he says he is not “under” it. He goes on to state that he is “not free from God’s law.” Which is to say, unlike you, that he acknowledges that it does exist.
Why is Paul not “free from the law”? Because he knows that Christ does not teach lawlessness. Unlike the Ceremonial law, Paul knows that Moral law has not been abolished. He knows it still exists, which is the opposite from being “abolished.”
1Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
But this does not mean Paul thinks the Moral Law has any salvific value. Just because the law exists, that does not mean it should be used for salvation. That is wrong. Only Faith in Christ is salvific.
As for the law of Christ; this includes what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. Which is not the same Sabbath that the SDA’s teach. They think the 4th commandment is still binding in the NC, when it is the Sabbath teaching of Jesus that trumps what Moses teaches.
What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath is binding on all that follow him. Those who follow Christ and what he teaches, (aka, the law of Christ) will also embrace what he teaches about the 7th day. Period.
Why are you fighting against Christ and his law? Why are you disobeying the Gospel and refusing to believe in Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath? Why don’t you obey the Gospel?
Rom. 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake,
Bob 2 said: Unless you try to separate the parts of the OT/OC to civil, ceremonial, and moral , your interpretation does not work.
Tom said: You don’t know what you are saying my friend. You are lost in a fog of double-talk that has hidden the teachings of Christ from your mind.
Jesus is the Lord of the NC Sabbath and what he teaches about the 7th day is NC “law” for the church. Why this should even be a point of contention is strange. Of course Christians should follow what Jesus teaches. But few follow the Good Shepherd. Sad.
Bob 2 said: What I have found that one has to be careful interpreting, Law, command, commandments into "The 10 Commandments" Christ's Law is the standard after the cross.
Tom said: Correct. However, “Christ’s law” includes what he teaches about the Sabbath.
Why is this so hard to understand and accept? Jesus NC Sabbath teachings is “law” for the church. It is not optional any more than anything else he teaches.
If you deny Jesus Sabbath teachings, which is what you are doing, then you deny him. Thus he will deny you.
Matt. 10:33 “But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
2Tim. 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
At this point in time, the entire Laodicean Church is blind to the Gospel. This explains why there is no correct doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath being practiced by any denomination. Only when the Gospel is fully understood, can the genuine NC Sabbath emerge in the church.
We are at this point. There has been a dramatic “increase” in all knowledge, including knowledge about the Gospel and church history.
Dan. 12:4 “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”
This lack of correct doctrine also explains why Jesus was so harsh in the genuine Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Jesus is calling the last church to repent and follow him. Those who follow him will also embrace his NC doctrine of the Sabbath. This is part of the definition of what it means to “follow Christ.”
Those who refuse, - are only proving that they are not following Christ. They may claim otherwise, but Heaven will not be fooled and neither will anyone that understands the Gospel teaching of Christ.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Bob 2 said: Abraham didn't have the Decalogue to guide Him but his faith in Jesus, before a Savior was born and something that would to be done that could forgive sins.
Tom said: No one had the Decalogue before Mt. Sinai. But there was still a Sabbath doctrine created at the beginning of the world by Christ.
However, there were no rules against working on the Sabbath before the 4th commandment was given to the Jews. This is an important point to understand. The “non-working” Sabbath of Moses was not active prior to Sinai, but the active doctrine of the Sabbath was in place since Eden.
Understand that when the OC started, it included a “tutor” or training Sabbath. When Jesus came to earth, he taught a different doctrine for the church. The training wheels came off the Gospel Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: Tom you need to tonight tone down the condemnation statement. You are a forum Bully who is causing people to not want to participate with you.
Tom said: Ha! Is this what you would have advised Christ? Would you have told him and those like Paul or Luther who followed him to “tone down” their Gospel message about sin and the judgment to come? Should Jesus have spoken smooth words to the Pharisees instead of cursing them?
Matt. 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
Matt. 23:14 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
Matt. 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
The Gospel teaches a Judgment Day for planet earth. Those who double-talk about religion and refuse to follow Christ, will be condemned in the judgment. This is part of the Gospel message that must be proclaimed to all.
Matt. 12:36 “But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
Rom. 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
No one will escape the last judgment. There, all will have to explain their theology to Christ. The NCT crowd will be quickly condemned and so too all the SDA’s that are so “careless” and dishonest with the Bible and doctrine.
2Cor. 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
Those who promote the genuine Gospel have an obligation to explain the downside of not believing. The Judgment Day is not to be marginalized or ignored. It is a very important part of the Gospel. Those who claim the law is abolished or that Jesus teaches no doctrine of the Sabbath, are proving that they do not know Christ or his Gospel.
Christ offers Eternal Life only to those who believe. Not to those who don’t, much less to those who repudiate the law of Christ and lead others away from what Christ teaches.
John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Those who repudiate what Christ teaches about the 7th day Gospel Sabbath, are not “obeying” Christ. They DO NOT BELIEVE in Jesus, even though they claim otherwise.
Thus anyone that practices the Sabbath of the SDA’s or the Sunday keepers, or the NCT crowd, are heading for the “wrath of God.” They are doomed if they don’t repent, - because they failed to follow the genuine Christ.
Don’t shoot the messenger; this is what the NT teaches. Sorry. The Gospel is not to be toned down under any circumstances.
Bob, I see you have found someone online that agrees with your errors, and now you put them forward as proof of your correctness. Too bad you have failed to find anyone in the Bible to make your case. You need to find Jesus teaching NCT, not some blind Laodicean in the 21st century. Such quotes are worthless.
Here is some teaching from Jesus that applies to what you are doing:
Luke 6:39 And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
Let’s see what they say:
Bob posted:
The New Covenant and the Sabbath http://www.gci.org/law/newcovsabb#Work
This is a sermon [excerpt] given by Joseph W. Tkach Sr. in Atlanta, Georgia, December 17, 1994, Santa Barbara, California, December 20, and Big Sandy, Texas, December 24; printed in the Pastor General’s Report, December 21, 1994 and The Worldwide News, January 5, 1995.
For its role in our history see A brief history. http://www.gci.org/aboutus/history
Sermon: … we are a new covenant church. Our relationship with God is based on faith in Christ, not on the old covenant. Our faith leads us to obey God in different ways from the old covenant. Some old covenant laws remain the same, and some are obsolete, and some are applied in different ways. There is a new covenant between God and his people.
Tom said: So far so good. I agree.
Sermon: The new covenant is based on faith. There is nothing in the new covenant that says we are required to keep the Sabbath according to the rules of the old covenant.
Tom said: 100% correct. I agree. Jesus did not teach an OC view of the Sabbath. He teaches a NC view of the Sabbath.
Sermon: In the New Testament, we see examples of people keeping the Sabbath, and we see statements that tell us the Sabbath is a shadow pointing to the reality, who is Christ.
Tom said: Stop! Here is error and double-talk. What examples of Sabbath keeping are they talking about? Most of those who “kept the Sabbath” were doing so in an OC fashion. So these are not good examples.
However, Jesus is the best example of Sabbath keeping for the Christian. What does he teach and what did he do on the Sabbath? This is the real question.
Moreover, what is the sudden pivot to one statement from Paul? Is Paul the Lord of the Gospel Sabbath? While Jesus claimed to the Lord and protector of the NC Sabbath, he has made no such “statements” about him fulfilling the Sabbath, or that he is the “Shadow of the Sabbath.” Here is great myth and error.
Why the sudden shift from Christ when it comes to the Sabbath? Jesus has taught far, far, more about the Sabbath than Paul and all the other apostles combined? Why ignore all that Gospel instruction? Very strange.
This author is confused and wrong, and it shows.
Sermon: That doesn't mean that the Sabbath is done away, but it means the Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ.
Tom said: Wow! Where did that conclusion come from? What a bunch of nonsense and confusion. So the Sabbath was not removed, only “fulfilled” in Christ. What does that even mean? And where does Christ teach such a thing?
Answer: Nowhere! Jesus never teaches that he is the fulfillment of the Sabbath, much less that it has been removed. NEVER.
So why make up false doctrines about the Sabbath? Why ignore what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath?
Answer: Because the Laodicean church is blind to the Gospel, delusional, wretched, and unsaved. They do not know Christ, or what he teaches about the Sabbath.
Sermon: It means Christ is more important than the Sabbath.
Tom said: Of course Christ is more important than the Sabbath. Which is why he is holy, and not the 7th day. So there is some truth scattered around with great error and confusion. Not impressed.
Sermon: It means the Sabbath rest for Christians in Hebrews 4 is the new life in Christ, not just a day of the week. And Paul tells us in Romans 14 that we should not be involved in disputes over days.
Tom said: Here we go again with these trite little textual formulas that say what people want to hear. This is not how one studies the law of Christ to see what he teaches about the Sabbath.
Paul is not the source of the Gospel Sabbath, nor should anyone turn to him to learn what Christ alone teaches in the Gospels about the Sabbath. All must go directly to Jesus, the Lord and Creator of the Sabbath doctrine.
I repeat: Those who are serious about understanding what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Gospel Sabbath must go to the Gospels and learn from Christ. Here they will find truth.
Sermon: We should hunger and thirst for the things of God. We should desire a better relationship with him and Jesus Christ. That's part of the law written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit under the terms of the new covenant. But that spiritual law demands that we take a less rigid approach to the Sabbath.
Tom said: What confusion. Those who know Christ the most, will embrace his NC Sabbath, which trumps what the 4th commandment demands. While the Gospel should lead us to expect a “less rigid approach” to the Sabbath, it is the words of Jesus that make it so. Not any “spiritual law” whatever that is. What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath is required doctrine for the church. Period!
Sermon: Faith causes us to be willing to obey our Lord and Savior in whatever he tells us to do.
Tom said: Correct. So why do so many REFUSE TO OBEY what Christ teaches about the 7th day Sabbath? The Sunday keepers don’t pay any attention to Christ, and neither do the SDA’s or the NCT crowd. All these groups have made up their own false version of the Sabbath. NONE of them have embraced what Christ teaches about the 7th day Lord’s day. They are doomed if they don’t wake up and repent.
Sermon: We see clear commands to love one another, to believe in the Son, to preach the gospel, to work for unity in the faith, to meet together as a Church, to build one another up in the faith, to do good works of service, to lead pure and moral lives, to live peaceably and to forgive those who wrong us.
Tom said: Jesus teaches a very logical, clear, and articulated doctrine of the NC Sabbath for the church. To “believe in the son” is to also believe in the Sabbath of the Son. Those that refuse, are not true believers. They are just following the blind crowd to perdition.
Sermon: These new covenant commands are demanding. They absorb all our time. All our days are dedicated to serving Jesus Christ. We need to be busy doing his work always, and it's not the broad and easy path. It's a difficult task, a challenging task, a task that few Christians are willing to do.
Tom said: Is the Gospel this difficult and hard? Not the true Gospel, which this group does not comprehend. They are such hypocrites to claim they are so “dedicated” to Jesus, but yet, they refute what he teaches about the Sabbath and teach others to also not believe.
Here is what is “difficult” -- for them to repent and embrace the genuine Gospel. This is what is so hard for the last church to do. And it is clear to me that this group has not succeeded as yet.
While they claim to be so busy working to please Jesus, they are also making up their own rules and not paying attention to the Gospel of Christ, which includes the Active and Reformed, 7th day Sabbath. Time for such games and hypocrisy to stop in every church.
In conclusion, it is time for the church to wake up, repent, and embrace Present Truth.
It is not time for more double-talk or delusion, or for the invention of more false doctrine. There is already way too much error and hypocrisy in the church. NCT is only making things worse, not better.
I hope this discussion helps those who seek genuine Gospel truth. However, I doubt it will have much effect on those who have made up their minds not to believe.
Those who are serious about Eternal Life, will search for truth and find it.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, note this string of logic from the Bible about Jesus keeping Sabbath:
Are Jesus’ remarks or practices regarding the Sabbath or annual festivals proof that Christians must keep these days as holy time? If that were the case, Christians would be obliged to offer sacrifices, participate in temple worship and follow those who taught obedience to the Law of Moses. Christian men would also have to be circumcised for religious reasons because Jesus was circumcised (Luke 2:21). Christian women would have to fulfill the specified Mosaic rites of purification after childbirth.
In short, if we say that Jesus’ remarks in the Gospels are proof that Christians must keep the Mosaic Sabbath or annual festival regulations, then we must accept all of the commands of the Law of Moses as being binding upon us (Galatians 3:10). Yet, we know that this conclusion is absolutely not correct. What Jesus did and taught in regards to old covenant rituals, including the Sabbath and the festivals, is not binding on Christians. Why not?
The answer becomes clearer when we understand that Jesus upheld for his lifetime the notion of a national covenant people. Jesus told his disciples to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, marking out Israel as the special nation and people of God (Matthew 10:6). He saw his own ministry as limited to this people (Matthew 15:24). However, after his death and resurrection, Jesus changed this in a fundamental way. His ministry and that of the apostles was also to Gentiles in all nations (Acts 1:8; 10:27, 34-35). - http://www.gci.org/law/jesussab
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Tom said:
You have been unable to show where the Messiah was supposed to “fulfill the Sabbath.” Without such an OT prophecy, NCT falls in a heap of double-talk.
Bob responds:
Galatians 3:19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed [Jesus ] to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.
2 Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory
of that which lasts!
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Bob, before you run off in another direction, you need to admit that there is no OT prophecy about Jesus fulfilling the Sabbath. Can you admit this obvious point?
I have asked you over and over to produce such an OT prophecy for Jesus to fulfill, and to show us Christ making such a claim in the Gospels that he is the fulfillment of the Sabbath. But you never do.
If there are no such passages, then NCT is false.
Your attempts to claim Gal 3:19 and 2 Cor 3:7 fits the request is laughable. What is the matter with you. There are no such OT prophecies or passages. These two texts are in the NT. And they don’t say anything about the Messiah fulfilling the Sabbath.
So you lose the debate; NCT is based on fiction, myth, and error.
The Messiah was never supposed to “fulfill” the 7th day Sabbath. Which means, NCT is absurd and false. It is built on sand.
Come on Bob, admit the obvious and repent. Embrace the Sabbath of Christ and follow only what he teaches about all things, including his active and reformed 7th day Sabbath.
This is what a true follower of Christ would do. But you are not a true believer. Only a pretend one.
Bob 2 said: Tom, note this string of logic from the Bible about Jesus keeping Sabbath:
Tom said: The Gospel is not about “logic,” much less about our opinions. It is about what Jesus teaches in the NT.
Bob 2 posted: Are Jesus’ remarks or practices regarding the Sabbath or annual festivals proof that Christians must keep these days as holy time?
Tom replied: First, What Jesus teaches about the reformed and active Gospel Sabbath is doctrine for the church.
Second, Jesus does not teach that the 7th day is holy or that it is sinful to work on the Sabbath.
Third, Jesus does not teach that the church should observe the Jewish Festivals, or that we are to observe any holy days, much less the 4th Commandment. Rather he takes the Passover and turns it into the Eucharist, which is the most sacred of all Christian rites. He also reformed the Sabbath.
Bob posted: If that were the case, Christians would be obliged to offer sacrifices, participate in temple worship and follow those who taught obedience to the Law of Moses.
Tom replied: What Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath is holy doctrine for the church. This nonsense that pretends Christ is teaching OC doctrine from Moses is absurd. Jesus was breaking the 4th commandment on purpose and teaching others to do likewise. He was preaching the Gospel and a very different view of the Sabbath from what Moses taught.
Bob2 posted: Christian men would also have to be circumcised for religious reasons because Jesus was circumcised (Luke 2:21). Christian women would have to fulfill the specified Mosaic rites of purification after childbirth.
Tom replied: This is not true. The Gospel teaching of Christ does not support OC Judaism. Neither circumcision nor OC Sabbath keeping can be part of the NC Gospel.
Bob 2 quoted: In short, if we say that Jesus’ remarks in the Gospels are proof that Christians must keep the Mosaic Sabbath or annual festival regulations, then we must accept all of the commands of the Law of Moses as being binding upon us (Galatians 3:10).
Tom said: First, it is wrong to marginalize the Sabbath teachings of Christ, as if they were only passing “remarks.” This is what the NCT crowd does best; ignore the many words of Christ about the Sabbath. This author is drinking the same religious Kool-Aid.
Second, Jesus did not refer to himself as the Lord of the passing remarks about the Sabbath. No. By taking such ownership of the Sabbath, which he created at the beginning of Creation, Christ is making far more than some passing remarks about the Sabbath. Those who think this way are only proving how little they know about Christ and his Gospel.
Third, Jesus was not teaching the OC Sabbath of Moses. This is why the Jews were so outraged with him. So why is the author assuming that this is what he teaches and thus if we take him seriously, we too must “keep the Mosaic Sabbath.”
Jesus does not teach the “Mosaic Sabbath.”
Those who think he does, like the SDA’s have made fools of themselves. And so too this confused author.
Fourth, the author is very confused if he thinks the Galatian debate was about the Sabbath of Christ. This is utter nonsense and theological incompetence.
Bob 2 posted: Yet, we know that this conclusion is absolutely not correct. What Jesus did and taught in regards to old covenant rituals, including the Sabbath and the festivals, is not binding on Christians. Why not?
Tom said: Wow! The author is actually saying that what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath can be ignored and dismissed as OC chatter. This is outrageous and wrong.
While Jesus teaches that all are to follow him and his reformed view of the 7th day, this author teaches the opposite, thus leading people away from Christ and away from his Word.
Bob 2 posted: The answer becomes clearer when we understand that Jesus upheld for his lifetime the notion of a national covenant people.
Tom replied: Ha! I would like to see a clear answer as to why the Sabbath teachings of Christ do not count for anything. Of course there is no answer for such blasphemy.
Oh, here it is, Jesus supposedly has some “notion” about the Jews being a “National Covenant People.” Whatever this double-talk means?
Here are the ramblings of someone who has no idea how to define or understand the Gospel, much less the NC doctrine of the Sabbath. They are just making things up as they teach people to ignore what Jesus teaches. Pathetic.
Bob posted: Jesus told his disciples to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, marking out Israel as the special nation and people of God (Matthew 10:6).
Tom said: This does not mean we should ignore what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. This text does nothing to prove NCT.
Bob 2 posted: He saw his own ministry as limited to this people (Matthew 15:24).
Tom replied: Wrong. Jesus always saw himself as the savior of the WORLD. Not just the Jews. His “Kingdom” was not even of this world. So this writer is making a fool of himself with these fictional views of the Gospel Story.
Matt. 24:14 “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
John 6:33 “For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
John 6:51 “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
There are many other texts that show Jesus Gospel is for the WORLD, not just the Jews.
While Jesus was born a Jew, his Gospel Message was for the entire world. He did not think his Gospel was limited to the Jews as this confused writer claims.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”
In fact, Jesus taught that his NC Sabbath was for all MANKIND, not just the Jews.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
But this writer does not believe this point.
It is obvious that this writer has no idea what Jesus teaches or why. He does not understand the Gospel, much less the Sabbath. That is the way it is with all those that embrace NCT. If they understood the Gospel correctly, they would run from this poison.
Bob 2 posted: However, after his death and resurrection, Jesus changed this in a fundamental way. His ministry and that of the apostles was also to Gentiles in all nations (Acts 1:8; 10:27, 34-35). –
http://www.gci.org/law/jesussab
Tom replied: Wrong. Jesus taught his apostles that he has other sheep, not of the Jewish fold.
John 10:16 “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become bone flock with cone shepherd.
Moreover, Jesus spoke to, and healed, the Gentiles, including a Roman Soldier.
Matt. 8:13 And Jesus said to the centurion, “Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed that very moment.
Thus Jesus original Gospel teaching paved the way for the Gentiles to later come into the Church. Jesus did not “change this in a fundamental way” as claimed.
Gentiles coming into the church was not new doctrine. Rather, it was doctrine from Christ that was not fully understood by the apostles when he was here on earth. They needed some reminding.
Consequently, it should come as no surprise that the first Gentile converts were a Roman Soldier and their family and slaves. Although it took some visions and such to get this point across to Peter, he finally understood what Christ had previously taught.
Acts 10:34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
Acts 10:35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
Note that “everyone” means the Gentiles as well as the Jews.
Note also that the prophets do not bear witness that Jesus is to fulfill the Sabbath. There is no such passage.
Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
Acts 10:45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
In conclusion, we can only say that those who embrace and promote NCT, are incompetent and dishonest with the Word.
They make many false assumptions as they insert fiction into the Gospel Story, all so they can declare the Moral law “abolished” and so too the weekly Sabbath and Lord’s day.
Bob, you and all others need to give up NCT and learn the correct Gospel, which includes the NC Sabbath of Christ.
I suggest that you go to the Gospels and learn the genuine Gospel Sabbath from Christ. This is your only hope…
Rom. 11:8 just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
Tom Norris for the 7th Day Gospel Sabbath of Christ
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Tom said:
Bob, before you run off in another direction, you need to admit that there is no OT prophecy about Jesus fulfilling the Sabbath. Can you admit this obvious point?
I have asked you over and over to produce such an OT prophecy for Jesus to fulfill, and to show us Christ making such a claim in the Gospels that he is the fulfillment of the Sabbath. But you never do.
Again, Christ lived under the Law, did these requirements continue after Christ died?
Numbers 28:9 “‘On the Sabbath day, make an offering of two lambs a year old without defect, together with its drink offering and a grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with olive oil. 10 This is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, in addition to the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.
Read on and find out the Sabbath day is not separate from festival celebration. But is included in Lev 23 as part of the ceremonial law of the Old Covenant.
Last edited by bob_2 (09-22-13 4:10 pm)
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Tom said: Bob, before you run off in another direction, you need to admit that there is no OT prophecy about Jesus fulfilling the Sabbath. Can you admit this obvious point?
I have asked you over and over to produce such an OT prophecy for Jesus to fulfill, and to show us Christ making such a claim in the Gospels that he is the fulfillment of the Sabbath.
But you never do.
Bob 2 replied: Again, Christ lived under the Law, did these requirements continue after Christ died?
Tom said: Please stop the double-talk and show us where the OT claims that the Messiah was to “fulfill” the Sabbath. Either there is such prophecy in the OT or there is not.
While you and NCT crowd claims Jesus was “fulfilling” the Sabbath, - so he can "abolish" it, where us this prophecy located? I can’t find it anywhere - because it does not exist. And neither can you for the same reason. Sorry to be the one to tell you this fact. But you must know its true by now. Otherwise you would show us these passages which are the foundation of NCT. But they don't exist. What does that tell you about NCT?
Bob 2 replied: Numbers 28:9 “‘On the Sabbath day, make an offering of two lambs a year old without defect, together with its drink offering and a grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with olive oil. 10 This is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, in addition to the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.
Read on and find out the Sabbath day is separate from festival celebration. But is included in Lev 23 as part of the ceremonial law.
Tom said: Wow! Is this all you have? If so, you lose. This is not a prophecy whatsoever, much less one that states the Messiah is to fulfill the 7th day Sabbath and then abolish the weekly day for the church.
It is clear that there is no such prophecy about the Messiah “fulfilling” the Sabbath or “abolishing” the Moral law. So why not admit the facts and repudiate the error of NCT?
Furthermore, not only can you NOT find any such prophecy, you can’t find Jesus claiming that he “fulfilled” the Sabbath.
So you lose twice.
It is clear that you cannot be honest with the Bible or with what Jesus teaches.
Why you think you are a Christian is anyone’s guess, but you are the nothing more than an obvious pretender, an enemy of Christ, one who repudiates the Gospel, even as they claim otherwise. Sad.
NCT is worthless. It is false doctrine based on sand. But many love such a beach house, where all is well until a great storm comes and washes everyone away.
Listen to Jesus' Words:
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”
Matt. 7:28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;
Can you understand his words?
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris, for New Covenant Adventism
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Tom, the Sabbath in NCT is never shown as the greatest law and when Christ asked the rich young ruler, he could name off the commandments, but he loved money more than God. The NC Sabbath doesn't come up, because Christ knows there is a balance in the NC message. And He would fulfill the Sabbath and give the Christian true rest, because of forgiveness of sins.
Romans 14:5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
This is putting the Sabbath down the list of things that we should discuss relative to Salvation.
Last edited by bob_2 (09-22-13 5:07 pm)
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Bob, NCT is based on the premise that Jesus “fulfilled” the Sabbath as predicted by the OT prophets. Such a doctrine sounds religious and even logical. But there is a big problem. Do you know what it is?
Answer: There are no such prophecies in the OT. There is no such fulfillment. NCT is based on a myth and error.
So again, let’s stick to the point and stop playing silly games.
While you and NCT crowd claim Jesus was “fulfilling” the Sabbath, - so he can "abolish" it, where is this prophecy located?
I can’t find it anywhere - because it does not exist. And neither can you for the same reason.
Sorry to be the one to tell you this fact. But you must know its true by now. Otherwise you would show us these passages, which are the foundation of NCT.
But they don't exist. What does that tell you about NCT?
Bob 2 said: Tom, the Sabbath in NCT is never shown as the greatest law and when Christ asked the rich young ruler, he could name off the commandments, but he loved money more than God.
Tom said: Who said the NC Sabbath is the greatest law? It is the SDA’s that claim the OC Sabbath is the greatest of all doctrines, which must be obeyed or one will receive the “mark of the beast. I am not saying that. Jesus is not saying that.
The SDA’s are WRONG!
Pay attention: Jesus gives an exemption from the rules of the 4th Commandment. He allows all that follow him to break the Sabbath and work on the 7th day, (in addition to congregational services).
So Jesus diminishes the Law of Moses and subordinates the 4th Commandment by his own authority. The NC Sabbath is a day FREE OF LAW, Free of guilt, and full of GOSPEL FREEDOM. It is almost too good to be true. Just like the Gospel!
Bob 2 said: The NC Sabbath doesn't come up, because Christ knows there is a balance in the NC message.
Tom said: If you want to know what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath, you must go to the proper passages where this doctrine is discussed. The fact you want to avoid what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath condemns you as a dishonest searcher for truth.
As for this so-called “balance” I don’t know what you are talking about and neither do you. You are just throwing words around.
Bob 2 said: And He would fulfill the Sabbath and give the Christian true rest, because of forgiveness of sins.
Tom said: Again, you state false doctrine as if it were true. Why do you do that?
1) Your failure to present any OT passages where Christ was supposed to “fulfill” the Sabbath condemns you views for all to see.
2) Moreover, you inability to find Jesus teaching that he is our Sabbath Rest or that he has “fulfilled” the Sabbath is also fatal to your views.
Why do you want to change the Gospel Story?
Do you think you are improving it for Christ? Hardly. You are repudiating Christ and his Gospel, even as you refuse to admit that your NCT views are not supported by either the OT or the NT. What is the matter with you?
Bob 2 said: Romans 14:5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike.
Tom said: Romans is not the correct book to learn the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. I think you must know that by now.
Any that want to know the Sabbath of Christ, must go to the Gospels where Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, teaches such doctrine for the church.
Those who don’t want to know such truth, like Bob, will be forever searching in the wrong places, on purpose, because they don’t want to be corrected or hear any such true doctrine from Christ.
So they bounce from one irrelevant text to another, all the while being careful to avoid the many passages where Christ teaches his Gospel Sabbath. This is what wolves do, not sheep.
Bob 2 said: Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
Tom said: The NT does not teach that any doctrine is up to the individual to accept or reject as he feels. You misunderstand Paul if you think the Gospel can be whatever we want it to be.
The Gospel can only be what Christ teaches.
Bob 2 said: This is putting the Sabbath down the list of things that we should discuss relative to Salvation.
Tom said: Salvation is only through faith in the genuine Gospel of Christ. There is no salvation by faith in a false Gospel or a false Christ.
One way to test and see if we have embraced the genuine Christ for Eternal Life is to see what kind of Sabbath we believe.
Do we follow what Jesus teaches or not?
This is the big question for us today, even as this was a great point of division for the 1st century Jews. The Jews failed the test. They refused Jesus Gospel Sabbath and killed him for it. It appears you would do the same thing if you had the chance.
Those who follow NCT have embraced a worthless Gospel and a false Christ. So too the SDA’s and even the Sunday keepers.
Those who follow the real Christ will repent and rejoice in his 7th day Gospel Sabbath.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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NCT Refuted
Bob, a former Traditional SDA, who is obsessed with the Every Day Sabbath of NCT, is unable to respond to the points made by Tom Norris. Rather than admit the obvious and repent of NCT, embracing the documented and genuine NC Sabbath of Christ, - he wants this discussion to stop. Too much truth apparently hurts his ears and confuses his mind, which has been made up on this issue.
Here is a thread, where he is trying to explain, defend, and promote the Sabbath doctrine of NCT. However, Tom Norris has easily disproven what he has presented.
Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1180
See Post # 153, etc. the Every Day Sabbath versus the NCS (New Covenant Sabbath) of Christ. Let all see how the genuine Gospel is far superior to the myths of NCT.
I repeat, Bob should repent and embrace what is true, not try and stop the discussion and censor those that support the genuine teachings of Christ.
However, this is the typical reaction from all those caught promoting false doctrine. They want to stop the discussion, run away, and pretend their views are correct. This is how Goldstein, Kerstan, and all the IJ screamers also reacted when Tom Norris exposed their false views. This is how losers act, when they should be admitting the obvious, repenting and embracing new truth.
IJ Discussion: Tom Norris & Herb Kersten
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1173
So nothing new here. Just the same old tricks of avoiding the facts while trying to promote false doctrine through censorship and double-talk.
Those who embrace Gospel truth have no need to run away, hide, or cover up the facts. True doctrine can stand the light of day, no need to live in the shadows of worthless hermeneutics and endless double-talk.
It is obvious that NCT cannot withstand serious examination or debate. It has been easily proven to be worthless myth and false doctrine built on sand. Jesus does not teach such nonsense and error, and it is blasphemy for anyone to say otherwise.
By contrast, the active, reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ can withstand everything the critics can throw at it. It will stand strong forever. Why? Because it is grounded on the genuine Gospel Words of Christ. The NCS (New Covenant Sabbath) is “founded on the rock.” NCT is built on sand.
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”
Let all understand: The Every Day/ No Day Sabbath doctrine of NCT is built on unstable sand. The New Covenant Sabbath stands on solid rock, on Christ’s Eternal words and teachings.
Matt. 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
John 15:7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Bob 2 said: Tom, again, I ask nicely that you spread your view on your own modified site.
Tom replied: Thanks Bob, but I don’t need your permission to promote the genuine Gospel in my section or yours. This site is not about censorship, so please don’t start playing such games.
The fact of the matter is that you have lost this debate long ago and you would like to stop the pain and embarrassment. I get it. The more you post, the worse NCT appears. But your effort is not in vain. You are helping others understand the absurdity of NCT. You are helping me make the case for the Reformed Sabbath of Christ, and for this I thank you.
So I am not going anywhere.
Consequently, the winner of this discussion is the active and reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ. The more it is discussed or attacked, by either the SDA’s or the NCT crowd, the better and stronger it looks. So this process of pushing new truth forward is not going to stop, much less because you are losing the discussion. But that was a nice try.
Bob 2 said: The Gospel tells of a time pre New Covenant and Jesus even at the Last Supper talked of Communion in the future, and did not introduce it until a day before His death. The New Covenant had not begun until His death.
Tom said: The Gospels record the words, sayings, and teachings of Christ for the church. They are not Old Testament books, nor should anyone pretend they are. Those that deny Jesus NC words in the Gospels, (which is what you are doing about the Sabbath); have lost their ability to reason and comprehend the Gospel. Such are not granted Eternal Life.
This outrageous idea that the Gospels are Old Covenant, and that Jesus Sabbath teachings were for the Jews and not the Church, is NOT supported by any school of theology, including anything from Zaspel or Wells. It is absurd.
You are trying to defend false doctrine with more false doctrine, making yourself look very dishonest and foolish in the process. Perhaps there is a way to defend NCT with an honest hermeneutic, but if so, no one has yet to find it. Why? Because NCT is a sham; a fraud, worthless false doctrine for those too lazy or brainwashed to comprehend the Gospels.
Bob 2 said: You have never been able to give a scripture where Jesus in the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke or John) where in His teachings commands a working Sabbath.
Tom said: There are scores and scores of Gospel verses where Jesus teaches, defends, and promotes his active and reformed 7th day Sabbath. This includes a number of Sabbath debates between Jesus and the Pharisees. Why do you pretend otherwise?
The fact that you don’t think such a 1st century record exists, only makes you appear delusional and uneducated. The Gospels are available to all. Those who refuse to read, study, and embrace what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath will be banished from the Kingdom of God. They are blind to the Gospel, having chosen to follow others that are also blind.
Bob 2 said: God and Jesus work was a salvific work not onerous or secular but it did not command a Sabbath for His Kingdom, the New Covenant times.
Tom replied: God works all during the week, and on the 7th day as well. Jesus also did a lot of “secular” work as a healer. Did you not know that God is the one that sets up and controls the fate of Nations and all mankind, even as he sends the rain on all. Such activity is “secular” not “religious.”
Matt. 5:44 “But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Matt. 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Christ teaches an active, working, 7th day Sabbath for all to see in the Gospels. He claims that God also works on the Sabbath for mankind, which made the Jews furious. Over and over, through scores of Gospel verses, Jesus teaches a NC Sabbath for the church and all mankind. Those that deny what is so plain and clear have no excuse in the Judgment Day.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
John 8:47 “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
Bob, why are you rejecting Christ’s words about the 7th day Sabbath? Are you ashamed of him? Don’t you understand you will be judged by how you react to the words, sayings, and teachings of Jesus? NCT is not of God or Christ. Repent while you still have a chance.
Bob 2 said: Until you have something new to say, PLEASE, put your responses to my posts on my moderated threads to your moderated thread. Thanks.
Tom said: Ha! This is not about being “new” or novel, but about finding and understanding Gospel Truth.
However, you must admit, and I think you have done this, that the active view of the 7th day Sabbath is very new to every church in Laodicea, both Protestant and Roman Catholic. In fact, the SDA’s have never even imagined such a new view, and it has stunned them into silence.
SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836
More that that; this “new” view of the NC Sabbath condemns all other views. Including what the SDA’s have been promoting all these years. So if you want “new,” there is plenty of it for the Adventist Community to understand and embrace, including the fact that the PAJ is not in Daniel 8:14, but Revelation 3: 14. This too, is “new” Gospel doctrine, which should also be understood and embraced.
Bob 2 said: Chapter 14, New Covenant Theology, The Sabbath: Some Critical Texts in Paul.
Tom replied: First off, Paul spoke very little about the Sabbath. By contrast, Jesus has scores and scores of verses where he presents his NC Sabbath, defending it against the constant attacks by the Jews and explaining how God the Father views this new doctrine.
Those today that want to understand the Gospel Sabbath, must go to Christ in the Gospels, not to Paul and his letters, to learn the correct doctrine. Not that Paul had it wrong, but rather, because Jesus is the primary source for the NC Sabbath, not Moses, Paul, or anyone else. What Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath, is what his true followers must understand, embrace, and believe.
When all is said and done, the theology and teaching of Christ is what matters most. Jesus Sabbath words, sayings, teachings, and actions must determine the definition of the NC Sabbath. Nothing else. Jesus, not Paul is the primary source to understand the NC, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.
Bob 2 said: Let me summarize this chapter with Tom Wells' paragraph on page 248:
The sum of Paul's understanding is this: Every Christian is free to keep whatever days he cares to keep as long as he does not impose them on others, though Paul himself feels it shows a certain lack of Christian maturity to impose such laws as a religious obligation on one's self.
Tom replied: First off, Paul has no standing as an “expert” in this debate. Nor did he believe the Gospel when the NC Sabbath of Christ was first preached.
So you are relying on the wrong witness to make your case. The Sabbath must first be understood by Christ, as it is his doctrine, and he has spoken on it far, far, more than Paul.
Let all examine what Christ teaches about the NC Sabbath in the Gospels. Once his holy point of view is understood, then others, like Paul, can opine on the original doctrine that Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath, invented and preached all during his Gospel ministry.
So I say again; Paul is not the primary source for the NC Sabbath. Jesus is. So it does not matter what Paul thinks; only what Christ teaches. Eternal Life comes from Christ, not Paul.
Second, if this is what Paul really teaches, then he is in direct conflict with Christ and what he teaches about the 7th day. Which means, that something is very wrong with those that would ignore Christ, choosing instead to run to Paul for their Sabbath instruction. But of course they are doing this on purpose. NCT does an end run around Christ so that they can find views, which they also misunderstand, from others.
Bob 2 posted: For Paul, to acquiesce in days of obligation was a species of slavery (Gal. 4:8-11). The intruders in Galatia were singularly vulnerable to Paul's rebuke because they wanted to impose much more than special days on the Galatians. The extent of their insistence on Moses led to Paul's withering condemnation. In light of this, we must all ask ourselves whether we impose upon the consciences of men and women without authorization from the Lord Jesus, and we must correct our practice accordingly.
Tom said: Again, there is no reason to try and figure out how Paul understood the Sabbath, if Jesus view of this doctrine cannot be comprehended. Jesus Gospel teaching about the Sabbath is primary, holy, and eternal. He claims his new, reformed view of the 7th day represents what God the Father instructed. Did Paul ever make such claims about the Sabbath? Did Paul claim to be the Lord of the Sabbath?
Jesus’ Sabbath teaching is an important Gospel doctrine; it must be clearly understood before trying to understand the position of others, like Paul.
Moreover, Galatians is not the proper source to understand the NC Sabbath of Christ. Only the Gospels contain this detailed information, which NCT pretends does not exist. Once Jesus Sabbath teachings is understood correctly, there will be no conflict with what Paul or the early church teach about the active and reformed 7th day Sabbath of Christ
Bob 2 said: Most Sabbatarians use Mark 2 :27, 28 to claim Jesus is teaching the Sabbath and it's continuance in the New Covenant. Let's examine this:
Tom said: Yes. All Sabbatarians use this verse because it clearly and correctly shows Jesus teaching a NC doctrine of the Sabbath. In fact, every NT translation ever made, shows that Jesus was using the word MANKIND or HUMANITY, instead of the word Jew. The more this passage is “examined,” the strong it becomes. So good luck trying to take these clear words of Christ mean what NCT wants them to mean. It is an impossible, and evil, task. Let’s see how it goes for you.
Moreover, the NT is clear that Jesus promotes and defends an active, working view of the 7th day Sabbath for all mankind, through the Church. This passage proves that the Sabbath has not been abolished or changed to Sunday.
This is why the church has always followed the doctrine of a weekly worship day. They get it from the teachings of Christ; even though they went on to choose the wrong day. Which error is to be corrected at the end of time by the Laodicean church. And so it will be! But not by the SDA’s, unless they repent of their errors and move forward to embrace the correct doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.
Bob 2 posted: 1. “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." What is being said? Again, Tom Wells on pages 249 and 250:
"In response we need to say that all that God created was made for man. Unfallen man both supervised and enjoyed all of creation, and that is redeemed man's future destiny as well. But it does not follow from this truth that all of God's good gifts were intended to last throughout history.
Tom said: Let all see how the minds of wolves operate. Rather than try a futile attack on the original language for “mankind,” those that are out to repudiate Christ have focused on the word “made”, claiming that perhaps the Sabbath was a temporary doctrine. Thus, they imply that whatever Christ meant, it was not to last, freeing them to discard the weekly Sabbath, replacing it with a false and absurd view of the Every Day/ No Day Sabbath.
Let all the Sheep BEWARE wolves;
The Sabbath, like the Earth, was made to last forever. Which is why this creation based, 7th day doctrine became part of the weekly cycle for all mankind, and a special day for the Jews and Christ, even though there is no such 7-day period in nature. This 7th day doctrine is so ancient, unique, and special that it makes no sense to try and compare it to temporary things, like the Old Covenant.
The Sabbath is tied to the Earth. Thus it cannot be temporary in nature, nor can it be on any other day, much less Every Day. Those today that can’t figure out the Gospel Sabbath, will never be able to understand the Gospel or receive Eternal Life. Let all beware the many false views of the Sabbath.
Bob 2 posted: Some of the animals are now extinct. The tree of life, in its literal form, has passed away. The entire Mosaic system eventually benefitted all mankind in its instruction and its providing the circumstances that produced the Messiah and the rest of the word of God. It could be said in the most literal sense, "It was made for man, and it passed away."
Tom replied: This is nonsense, double-talk, and blasphemy. Jesus did not say, or mean, what the confused Wells claims. Just because the tree of life “passed away,” and so too the OC, that does not mean that the Sabbath did so as well. If this is what Jesus teaches in the Gospels, then so be it; but if it is not, then what is going on here?
Answer: religious malpractice. The authors of NCT are not to be trusted about the teachings of Jesus. They are great liars and blasphemers for all to see.
God, Christ, and the Jews forever link the Sabbath to the Creation of the Earth. It is not a doctrine like any other. It cannot be viewed as Temporary, or on any day but the 7th. It was Jesus’ favorite doctrine. Christ is not the Lord of the passing away earth, or the abolished Sabbath.
Bob 2 posted: " The second argument for Sabbath keeping here is found in the statement, "So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath". The argument is a simple one: would the Lord Jesus assert His authority over the Sabbath only to abolish it? The question is a fair one and we must answer it.
Tom said: While the question is fair and reasonable, not so the answer from NCT. If it were Jesus intent to use his authority to “abolish” the Sabbath, why did he not do so? Answer: Because he was using his authority to establish the NC Sabbath, NOT remove it!
Why speculate about what Jesus COULD DO about the Sabbath, when you can know what he DID teach about the Sabbath?
Forget worthless speculation, Jesus teaches what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. We either follow him like a Lamb follows the Good shepherd, or we do not. NCT teaches that the lambs such run away from Christ and go their own way. Let all beware.
NCT is for the brain dead and hell bound. It is unprofessional and incompetent religious double-talk, like so much being promoted today. Too bad that so many SDA’s have embraced this garbage.
Bob 2 posted: "Two things must be kept in mind in answering this question. First, the mere fact that Jesus claims lordship over the Sabbath means that he has the option to abolish it if He so chooses. The idea of lordship would be largely emptied of meaning if that were not the case. No argument, then, for the permanence of the Sabbath can be sustained simply from Christ's declaration of lordship over it.
Tom replied: Wrong. Jesus has the power over all the earth, which means he has the power to destroy it and not save anyone. But does that mean he will withdraw the Gospel and destroy everyone? He has the power. Stop such absurd speculation and double-talk.
In other words, Christ having the power to destroy the Sabbath does not negate, or in any way diminish, what he teaches about the Sabbath. So the NCT crowd is just playing word games in their war against Christ and his NC Sabbath. They are very dishonest and foolish, proving that people will do anything to publish books and make money. NCT is a scam, invented in the 1970’s by those unhappy with their present religious confusion.
Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
Bob 2, who has fallen into a pit of darkness, posted: "Second, and equally important, we have to ask what abolishing the Sabbath might mean. ...
Tom said: No, we don’t need to speculate on things that did not happen. Jesus did not “abolish” the Sabbath or change it to Sunday. Nor did he double-down on trying to keep the Sabbath holy, like the SDA’s teach.
It’s time for everyone to grow up and graduate from the many myths and traditions that we were all indoctrinated to believe. It time for Gospel maturity, knowledge, wisdom, and unity.
Jesus “abolished” the OC, non-working Sabbath doctrine, including the Priesthood and Temple services. As part of the NC, he reformed the Sabbath doctrine for the church; he did not fully abolish it.
Bob 2 posted: We are contending that the Sabbath finds its fulfillment in Christ, specifically in the rest he promises in Matthew 11:28-30.
Tom replied: Such a view is false, false, and false. The Sabbath is not the type of doctrine that can be “fulfilled.” It is a memorial to the creation of the world, A PAST EVENT, and thus it cannot be fulfilled. Nor is there any such OT prophecy where the Sabbath was to be fulfilled by the Messiah, much less removed. Thus, NCT is wrong; it is based on errors, myths, and lots of tiresome double-talk.
Let all understand that Jesus does not, not, not, claim to be the fulfillment of the Sabbath. Such a point is fabricated, inserted into the Gospel Story by modern religious heretics who are trying to sell books to the gullible. NCT is anti-Gospel, anti-Christ, and anti-7th day Sabbath. Such false views will not lead to Eternal Life, but away from it.
Bob 2 posted: Is it then abolished in every sense? Certainly not!
Tom said: Good to hear that the NCT crowd admits the Sabbath still exists in “some sense.” However, their view of it is so warped, confused, and impossible, what is the point?
NCT makes no sense. It is full of double-talk and error. First they say the weekly Sabbath is abolished, either for the 7th or 1st day of the week, thus there is “No Sabbath.” But then they say it is not fully removed, having been changed to an “Every Day Sabbath” of spiritual rest for those who meet every Sunday.
Wow! What doctrinal confusion and double-talk. Let all beware NCT!
Bob 2 posted: While many may disagree with our contention that the rest in Christ fulfills the Sabbath, all must see that if we are right, in a very important sense indeed, the Sabbath goes on and is not abolished at all. .... Lordship over the Sabbath means that the Lord Jesus can do with it as he pleases."
Tom replied: NCT is not correct. Period. Nor is there any chance they may be correct. Let all repent of NCT.
It is clear that this new theology about Christ fulfilling the Sabbath was invented by lightweights. It is laughable and absurd. How can anyone that is literate with the NT, embrace this nonsense and double-talk?
First, it is an un-refuted fact that Jesus never claimed to be the “fulfillment of the Sabbath.” There is no such passage in all the many Gospel passages about the Sabbath. This singular point is enough to overthrow NCT. And it does!
Second, the Sabbath “goes on” because Christ teaches that it goes on in the NC. What Christ teaches about the 7th day Sabbath is Gospel doctrine for the church. Period. Such a point destroys NCT, again.
The SDA’s, long ago, correctly understood that the Sunday Sabbath was false. Consequently, they thought they had resolved this error and recovered Jesus’ genuine Sabbath teaching. Then they went on to build the largest pro-7th day Sabbath Christian denomination in the world.
However, while they were correct about the Day, they were very wrong about the rest of the Sabbath teachings of Christ, as well as many other things. As a result, millions have walked away from Adventism as it self-destructs in confusion and doctrinal error. But NCT is not the answer to the false Sabbath of the SDA’s. It is just more false doctrine.
It is time for the Advent Movement to admit their doctrinal error about the Sabbath, as well as many other points, and repent. Then they must move forward to a better understanding of the 7th day Sabbath, as well as to an improved comprehension of Gospel Eschatology and how the world will end.
Matt. 11:15 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Offline
NCT Still False
Bob, you can try as hard as you like, but NCT is still false, false, false. It is no solution to the SDA error about the Sabbath, which can only be properly addressed by embracing the active and reformed, Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
However, let all rejoice; the correct doctrine of the NC, 7th day Sabbath, has been found. This is a paradigm shifting point for the Adventist Community. It is a new, much needed, truth for those in the dark.
What a pity that the SDA leaders, including the so-called “independent” Journals like Spectrum and AToday, refuse to allow any such discussion about the doctrine of the Sabbath, or anything else of consequence. Against the overwhelming evidence, they assume what the church teaches is fully correct, and thus refuse any Gospel correction, choosing instead to censor, silence and ignore serious and necessary Adventist Reform. Sad.
Bob said: The chapter (about NCT) goes on and concludes with a discussion of the rare (once) phrase "the Lord's day" and how it came to be.
Tom said: Considering how the Every Day Sabbath crowd manipulates the words of Christ, changing them to mean whatever they want, whenever they want, how can this possibly turn out well? It can’t.
Watch and see these wolves in action. The NCT crowd will now spit in the face of Christ, changing the words and meaning of scripture to fit their delusions, thus repudiating Christ.
This crowd of blasphemers will fight against the most clear and plain Sabbath teaching of Christ, even as they pretend to be followers of Jesus, embracing the “law of Christ.” But they are great pretenders, even blind, like the original Jews that refused to listen to what Christ taught about the 7th day.
Let all understand; while Jesus teaches X about the Sabbath, the authors of NCT teach Y. Thus they are self-condemned, and so too any so foolish as to follow these wicked wolves.
Bob 2 wrote: "The phrase, the Lord's Day, is a striking phrase. In itself it would be an appropriate name for a sacred day of obligation if there were one designated by Christ for his people to keep."
Tom said: Wow! According to the NCT crowd, while the “Lord’s Day” sounds like it should mean something doctrinally important, it doesn’t. Why? Because Jesus abolished the Sabbath and Paul agrees. End of Story. Really?
Listen to these fools repudiate the teachings of Christ, --just because they say so. Then they bring Paul into their fraud and pretend that he agrees with their delusions. Who are these people to teach everyone to ignore the words of Christ? On what authority?
Let all beware wolves and false religious teachers.
For the record;
1) Jesus is the self-proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath; the Sabbath doctrine was one of his favorite teachings, which Christ promoted all during his ministry.
2) Jesus teaches an active and unique, as well as controversial, NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. He did not abolish the Sabbath completely, or change it to Sunday. Nor did he recast the 7th day into an Every Day spiritual doctrine about rest or salvation. However, he did reform it for all to see in the Gospels. This is why the Jews sent him to the cross.
3) The singular term, the “Lord’s Day,” in Revelation, is a reference to Jesus’ controversial Sabbath teaching, which John records in his Gospel. In fact, John has more to say about the Sabbath then the other three Gospels, so it makes perfect sense that he would make a reference to the NC Sabbath of Christ, which he wrote so much about.
What day was special to the Lord Jesus? Answer: The 7th day. It was the Lord’s Day, Christ’s Day, a doctrine that led directly to the Jews rejection of Jesus.
4) The term Lord’s Day can only refer to the 7th day Sabbath. Misunderstand this NT fact, and the Gospel will not be correctly understood, much less the doctrine of the Sabbath.
Jesus is the creator and Lord of all the Earth, “even the Lord of the NC Sabbath.”
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Bob 2 said: Tom Wells goes on to point to Jesus being "Lord of the Sabbath" and the term "the Lord's supper". Then is the Lord's day the seventh day mentioned in Rev 1:10 or represent Sunday, because of the "Lord's supper" representing His Resurrection on Sunday the first day.
Tom said: Wow! Let all understand how the evil minds of wolves think. See how the NCT leaders question the teachings of Christ, inserting doubt and double-talk, twisting Jesus words to support their false doctrines. Sad.
Let all understand; the term “Lord,” in these passages means Jesus. He is the “Lord”. So there is a Lord’s Day, which is a reference to the 7th day Sabbath. And there is also a Lord’s Supper, which is a reference to the Passover sader that took place just before the Passion.
Days and meals are not to be confused or conflated, anymore than the creation of the Earth is to be confused with the Jews escaping Egypt. These are different events. Jesus is the Lord of the 7th day Sabbath doctrine, as well as the new and improved Passover meal, called the Lord’s Supper. He is Lord of all the Earth, and “even” Lord of the NC, 7th day Sabbath and the Passover.
1Cor. 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
It is obvious that the authors of NCT are trying to insert doubt, confusion, and error into the Gospel Story so that they can claim their Every Day Sabbath doctrine credible and true. But it is not even close. NCT is blasphemy and endless double-talk. It is a foolish and cruel doctrine, meant to confuse the unsaved, leading them away from the Gospel of Christ.
Bob said: Wells points out that there is no command by Jesus anywhere to clarify this matter, so it is not a fruitful argument and is an "in-house" debatable point.
Tom replied: Ha! So Well’s thinks he has raised some deep point that cannot be figured out from the NT. Really? Did Jesus fail to make his Sabbath teachings clear, leaving us in confusion? Or could it be that Wells is just one more religious blowhard that thinks he is wiser than Christ?
Christ’s Sabbath teachings are very clear, repeated over and over in the Gospels for our edification and instruction. However, those whose ears and eyes are not open to truth, cannot comprehend this correct Gospel doctrine. This was the same problem with the Jews, who also pretended not to understand Jesus Sabbath teaching, and thus they fought against him, and his NC Sabbath doctrine, at every opportunity.
Wells is a wolf. His logic is that of a heretic, not someone who is trying to be faithful to the teachings of Christ. The more I hear from him, the more dishonest and incompetent he appears. He is clearly an enemy of Christ, and everyone should be warned. Sheep should not listen to wolves. They must listen only to Christ, which is not a “debatable point.”
Bob 2 posted: "We simply must leave the matter there and do as Paul commanded us in Romans 14:5,6: 'One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.'"
Tom replied: Wrong! No Christian is to ignore Christ and follow someone else, regardless who he may be. So we are not going to leave things in a confused mess, as if Christ has failed to give us enough information and insight into his NC Sabbath doctrine.
No Christian should listen to anyone that claims Jesus did not explain the Sabbath well enough for us to understand. This blasphemous error is the basis for NCT. This garbage could not exist without inserting absurd fabrications into the Gospel Story. NCT is based on myth, error, and double-talk, not on the words of Christ in the Gospels.
So we will not agree to “leave the matter” where you have manipulated it. Here is the real situation: We must read, study, understand, and embrace, the NC Sabbath teachings of Christ, the Lord of the 7th day Sabbath.
THIS is the end of the matter.
Paul has nothing to do with it. What Jesus teaches about the Gospel Sabbath is what all that follow him must embrace. Anyone that fails to follow Christ will not receive Eternal Life. Period. Paul has zero to do with it. We are only saved by Jesus and through Jesus, if we embrace what he teaches. Christ is the primary source for the Gospel, as well as the NC Sabbath. Eternal Life can only be obtained through Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath doctrine. Repudiate Christ at your own risk.
Bob 2 said: The New Covenant does not designate "a holy day" of obligation as the Jews received in the Ten Commandment which is the Old Covenant, Exodus 34:28.
Tom replied: Correct. Jesus does not teach that the 7th day is to be kept holy by refraining from work. This is what Moses taught, but not Christ. I have never said otherwise. It is the SDA’s that teach the Sabbath of Moses, incorrectly thinking it is the same as the Sabbath doctrine of Christ. But they have made a great and fatal mistake in this matter, for which they must repent.
Let all understand, Jesus teaches that the 4th Commandment is no longer binding on the church. A point that many Christians are very confused about, especially the SDA’s. The NC Sabbath is a day for worship (on the 7th day) and work, NOT worship and rest. Of course the Jews did not agree with Jesus NC view of the Sabbath, and they were cursed by Christ and destroyed as a result. There is a compelling lesson here for the church.
Bob 2 said: The New Covenant tenets are limited to directives given in anticipation and in the rest of the New Testament during God's Kingdom/New Covenant and we should not speculate on something that burdens the conscience of the believer when not specifically given.
Tom replied; Stop the double-talk. What Jesus teaches in the Gospels about the Sabbath, is what his N followers must embrace. Period. It seems you must not have read the Gospels, as you are very unfamiliar with the teachings and sayings of Jesus, which are also called the “law of Christ.”
The Law of Christ is binding on all that claim to follow Jesus. What Jesus teaches, - is Gospel doctrine for the church, which teaching includes, not excludes, what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath.
If Jesus teaches an Every Day Sabbath, then NCT is correct to promote such a doctrine. If Jesus teaches a non-working, resting Sabbath, like Moses and the SDA’s, then so be it. The same for Sunday, etc. Whatever Jesus teaches is what his church must embrace and follow.
However, Jesus only teaches an active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath doctrine. Not a resting Sunday, or resting 7th day doctrine, much less an Every Day Sabbath doctrine OF spiritual rest.
I repeat: Whatever Jesus teaches about the Sabbath – is Gospel truth. Anyone that teaches a different doctrine, has fallen from grace, they do not understand nor embrace the genuine Christ. They will not pass the Judgment or receive Eternal Life.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
Bob 2 said: Those arguing that all truth is contained in the Gospels and it's examples, forgets that the New Covenant began on the death of Christ and "received power" and energy on Pentecost.
Tom replied: Wrong. The NC “begins” when Christ was born on earth. Most every child knows the story. Too bad that the NCT crowd is so confused and blind to the Gospel.
Here is a passage that underscores this point. Note that the birth of Christ was “Good News of great joy,” complete with a heavenly choir singing praises, etc. Why were they so happy? Because the OC was starting? No. Because the NC had started. It had yet to be inaugurated, but it had started non-the less with the birth of Christ.
Luke 2:8 In the same region there were some shepherds staying out in the fields and keeping watch over their flock by night.
Luke 2:9 And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened.
Luke 2:10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;
Luke 2:11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
Luke 2:12 “This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”
Luke 2:13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,
Luke 2:14 “Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.”
Anyone that thinks Jesus’ words in the Gospels are Old Covenant in nature, because they were spoken before the Passion, have not only lost their minds, they have also lost any chance of salvation. Eternal Life is not for those that refuse to embrace the Gospel Story correctly. It is not for those that refuse to listen to Christ.
Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
1) All that follow God, must LISTEN to the Gospel teachings of Christ.
2) All truth necessary for salvation is written down in the Gospels.
3) Jesus ministry is represented by his official Gospel teachings, which is why they were written down by his Apostles and place at the beginning of the New Testament, superior to all others.
I repeat: All truth necessary for salvation is found in the Gospels. Thus the teachings of Christ are sufficient for Eternal Life.
No other person is equal to Christ, nor can anyone be saved through Paul or the organized church. Only Jesus can save. Whatever he teaches, is truth. It is also a matter of life and death, and this includes what he teaches about the 7th day.
4) After the cross, NO new Gospel truth has ever originated from the HS, or Paul, as you pretend. The passage you cite does not say that the church would receive “new doctrines,” but power to preach the Gospel as previously taught by Christ. (You need to read the NT more carefully.)
Jesus lived, taught, and fully preached the Gospel, which includes what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. The four Gospels are the written record of Jesus’ Gospel instruction. There is no other Christ, nor are there any other genuine Gospels. What we have is what we have. And it is sufficient to find Eternal Life, as well as understand the correct doctrine of the NC Sabbath.
So you need to stop marginalizing Christ and stop pretending that his Gospel Words are not part of the New Covenant. This is an outrageous position that not even the NCT founders would embrace. You are speaking like an uneducated fool, all in an attempt to repudiate the Sabbath teachings of Christ. Sad.
Bob 2 said: Nowhere is the Sabbath emphasized or directed as an obligation for the Christian believer.
Tom said: Bob, you are a great liar. This statement is clearly false and you must know it.
1) Jesus “emphasized” the Sabbath over and over and over in all four Gospels. He even took the name, “Lord of the Sabbath” to “emphasize” how special this doctrine was to him.
2) The Sabbath debates between Christ and the Jews are a featured and repeated occurrence in the Gospels, once again showing the “emphasis” and importance of Jesus, NC doctrine about the 7th day.
3) John makes it clear, that the great vision of Revelation was given to him on the 7th day Sabbath. (The Lord’s Day). Thus, Revelation “emphasizes,” the Sabbath, and in fact, places this doctrine in an eschatological and prophetic context.
The first point is sufficient to disprove your false assertion;
Just read the Gospels; Jesus new and controversial Sabbath doctrine is found all over the Gospels. Only a blind person could miss all this 7th day instruction from Christ. In fact, Jesus calls those that rejected his NC Sabbath blind and unsaved. His words still count today.
So Bob, your words are false. Jesus “emphases” a reformed doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, over and over in all four Gospels. Why do you deny this plain and clear Gospel fact? Why do you refuse to listen to Jesus and follow the genuine Christ?
It is a Gospel fact that Jesus promoted his NC Sabbath doctrine over and over in the Gospels, starting from the very beginning of his ministry. He also claimed to have the proper authority from God, his Father, to make such Sabbath reforms. Which is why the Jews became enraged at him for making their God into a Sabbath breaker.
With these facts in mind, how can anyone claim that “nowhere” in the NT is the Sabbath “emphased?” How can you so boldly deny the facts of the Gospel Story? How can you deny what is so obvious in the NT? How can you possibly expect to receive Eternal Life from Christ, when you repudiate and deny what he teaches?
Matt. 10:33 “But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
To deny the active and reformed Sabbath of Christ is to DENY Christ. Those so foolish as to deny what Christ teaches about the 7th day, will be “denied” entrance into the Kingdom of God.
Anyone that claims to follow Christ, must understand, support, and embrace what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. This is a large part of what it means to follow Christ, the Good Shepherd.
I repeat: To deny the Sabbath teaching of Christ, is to deny Christ and repudiate the Gospel. This is what Christ teaches. Those that think otherwise, do not know Christ or his teachings.
2Tim. 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
This last quote took place during a long Sabbath debate. Here Jesus calls those who resist his NC Sabbath doctrine; blind, headed for the judgment.
Bob 2 said: Also, remember Christ's own words: John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Tom said: Ha! So now you want to listen to Christ in John 16, but not in the many other places where he teaches his active and reformed Sabbath? How convenient. You quote the words of Jesus when it suits you, hoping to find something that will help you repudiate what he teaches about the Sabbath. This is not the correct way to understand Jesus teachings.
Sorry, but this passage does not give anyone license to ignore, marginalize, or repudiate what Christ teaches about the 7th day Sabbath in the Gospels. Why would you think so? Is Christ divided, against his own teachings? No.
Jesus said: “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and a house divided against itself falls. Luke 11:17
Bob 2 said: A few final thoughts from Chapter 13:
1. "...it is clear that they [Jewish Christians] were not aware of any rule laid down by the Lord Jesus that instituted the Lord's Day [Sunday, if you believe it is Sunday] as a replacement for the Jewish Sabbath." pg 247 NCT
Tom replied: Wrong! The term “Lord’s Day,” as used by John in Revelation, shows that the early Christians, who were Jews, were aware what that term meant. It is code for the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. It is a reference to Jesus’ controversial Sabbath doctrine that so enraged the Jews.
Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
Jesus is the self-proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath. All his apostles, as well as the critics, knew of his public claim, as well as the active and reformed 7th day doctrine associated with it.
No one should seriously think this phrase is a reference to Sunday, or to an Every Day spiritual doctrine as promoted by NCT. That would be an impossible and very uneducated position. The book of Revelation was written by the same Jewish author as the Gospel of John. A book that features Christ’s active and reformed 7th day Sabbath.
Wolf Alert!!
In addition, the book of Revelation comes with a WARNING: Do NOT Change or Tamper with the words of this book. Which means that anyone who pretends this vision was given to John on Sunday, is changing the words and the intent of this book at the very beginning.
Rev. 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues, which are written in this book;
Rev. 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
Do you understand that NCT, with its’ dishonest spin on the Sabbath has broken both rules? They have taken away the true meaning of the Lord’s Day in Revelation, and have added this absurd Every Day spiritual Sabbath as the true meaning.
So NCT is double cursed. Those who embrace this false doctrine will not eat from the Tree of Life, nor will they enter the New Jerusalem.
Let all understand that every church and denomination in the world has misunderstood the term Lord’s Day, including the SDA’s that were, and still are, correct about the 7th Day. But they are wrong about the doctrine.
The Lord’s Day is not a reference to the OC Sabbath of Moses and the 4th Commandment, but only to the active and reformed, Gospel Sabbath of Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath, which was made for all mankind.
The modern SDA’s have also broken this rule of Christ in other passages. By claiming that Rev 14: 7 is a reference to the IJ, they have repudiated the Fundamentals of the Advent Movement and placed themselves on a path of self-destruction. They have altered and changed the original Adventist interpretation that started this prophetic movement, forgetting the very points that brought them into existence.
Ellen White warned the SDA’s not to make the very mistake they made at Glacier View. They have repudiated the foundation of the Advent Movement, which is why the SDA’s are self-destructing for all to see.
"We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we shall forget the way the Lord has led us, and His teaching in our past history." E.G. White - Last Day Events - Page 72.
While Miller, and ALL the Battle Creek SDA’s taught the “Hour of His Judgment has come” was only a reference to the Second Coming, the Takoma Park apologists changed it to mean the IJ. To give credibility to this false doctrine, they also taught that this is what Ellen White believed, --when this was never true. (Arthur White was a very dishonest man).
Here is where the SDA’s have gone very wrong. Glacier View was a farce that defended great error and historical fraud by the White Estate. Here is where the modern Advent Movement went off the tracks and into the woods…
The modern SDA’s have removed the doctrine of the 2nd Coming in Rev 14: 7, adding the false doctrine of the IJ in its place. Unless they repent and correct this hermeneutical travesty, they are doomed to a path that will take them far away from Eternal Life. They are headed for the “plagues of God”, even the wrath of God.
Rev. 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues, which are written in this book;
Rev. 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
Christ curses those who play dishonest games about either the Sabbath or eschatology. Let all beware. God is not to be mocked nor the Gospel treated lightly.
The Advent Movement can only go forward if they repent of their many false doctrines, including their errors about the Judgment and the Sabbath. To deny they have any error is to deny Christ.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
If the SDA’s receive much more “reproval” or “discipline,” they will collapse. Perhaps this is what they need in order to repent? The continued defense of the status quo will lead them to certain ruin.
Bob 2 said: 2. "The sum of Paul's understanding is this: every Christian is free to keep whatever days he cares to keep as long as he does not impose them on others, though Paul himself feels it shows a certain lack of Christian maturity to impose such laws as a religious obligation on one's self. For Paul, to acquiesce in days of obligation was a species of slavery (Gal.4:8-11)." pg 248 NCT
Tom replied: First, it does not matter what you think Paul says; he is the wrong source. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and the head theologian in the church. What Christ teaches about the Sabbath, is what all must also embrace. Paul has zero to do with it.
Second, Paul embraced the NC Sabbath of Christ. He understood what you do not. However, unless you first understand what Jesus is teaching about the Sabbath, you will be unable understand Paul either. You are blind to both Christ and Paul.
Third, it was the law of the 4th Commandment, which Paul considered “slavery” and legalism. What a pity that the SDA’s have embraced the “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the OC Jews. This is a great mistake, for which the Adventists must repent.
More than that, they need to pay attention to what Jesus teaches about the 7th day and follow him, NOT MOSES or the Law.
Bob 2 said: 3. "In light of this (the Galatians keeping of days), we must all ask ourselves whether we impose upon the consciences of men and women without authorization from the Lord Jesus, and we must correct our practice accordingly." pg 248 NCT
Tom said: What Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath, is Gospel doctrine for the church. This is also called the law of Christ.
Jesus does not teach:
1) Sunday Sabbath,
2) Every Day Sabbath, or a
3) 7th day, non-working Sabbath, as taught by the SDA’s.
4) Christ only teaches an active and reformed, 7th day Gospel Sabbath, a doctrine that is unknown to the blind and wretched Laodicean church.
Bob 2 said: 4. Yes, Christ said "The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath." But it also could be said after study of this in New Covenant terms, "It could be said in the most literal sense, "It was made for man, and it passed away." pg 250 NCT
Tom said: No, no, no! The words of Christ are not to be twisted in such a dishonest manner as to change their meaning. This is not what the passage says or means. What is the matter with you? How dare anyone blatantly try and change the Gospel words of Christ? Jesus never said that the Sabbath “passed away.” While this is what you want him to say, it never happened. This is how we know NCT is anti-Christ blasphemy that leads away from the Gospel.
Jesus is the Eternal, Lord of the Sabbath. There is no “passing away” of either his title about the Sabbath or the doctrine itself, which is based on the creation of the world, which will stand forever. This is why Jesus promotes and defends his NC Sabbath all during his Gospel ministry. NCT repudiates Christ and his Word in order to support their false views. Shameful.
Bob 2 rationalized: 5. "...The mere fact that Jesus claims lordship over the Sabbath means that he has the option to abolish it if he so chooses. The idea of lordship would be largely emptied of meaning if that were not the case. No argument then, for the permanence of the Sabbath can be sustained simply from Christ's declaration of lordship over it."
Tom replied: Wrong. This is anti-Christ double-talk. The reason why Jesus is the self-proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath is because he made the Sabbath when he created the world. This title has nothing to do with his powers to abolish anything.
The Sabbath was part of the creation of the Earth, and thus its “permanence” is tied the very Earth itself, as well as to the Eternal Creator. Neither the Creator, the Earth, nor the Sabbath have been abolished, nor will they ever be abolished.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 1He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Gen. 8:22 “While the earth remains,
Seedtime and harvest,
And cold and heat,
And summer and winter,
And day and night
Shall not cease.”
Psa. 93:1 The LORD reigns, He is clothed with majesty;
The LORD has clothed and girded Himself with strength;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.
Psa. 104:5 He established the earth upon its foundations,
So that it will not totter forever and ever.
Jesus created the Sabbath when he created the world. So long as the world stands, so too the NC, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. (Which is not to be confused with the OC 7th day Sabbath of Moses.)
While NCT pretends that the NC Sabbath doctrine is “abolished” by Christ, as if it were an “enemy” to be removed, this is an absurd conclusion. The Sabbath is linked to the creation of the world; it can never be abolished so long as the Earth remains.
By contrast, “Death” is “abolished” by the Gospel, not the NC Sabbath. Death is the enemy of mankind, not Jesus’ doctrine about the Gospel Sabbath. Those that have conflated these points are making a fatal mistake.
2Tim. 1:10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
1Cor. 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
In fact, Jesus makes it clear that death can only be defeated if we follow and “keep: his words,” which include what he teaches about the 7th day Reformed Sabbath.
John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”
Where does Jesus declare he “abolished” the Sabbath? Where are such “words” and teaching? No where! There is no such Gospel teaching. Rather, Jesus teaches an active, guilt free, 7th day Sabbath for the church. It is not like what the SDA’s teach, or what any other denomination teaches.
Thus the NC Sabbath is an agent of condemnation and death for the last church, if they reject it. Those that fail to “keep” Jesus words and teachings about the Sabbath, will be lost. Just like the Jews that also rejected the Gospel Sabbath.
The NC Sabbath is a divisive, controversial, and paradigm shifting doctrine that exposes those who are only pretending to follow Christ from those who are honest, sincere, and saved. Misunderstand Jesus’ Sabbath teaching, and you can be sure you have also failed to comprehend the Gospel of Christ.
There is a reason why Jesus’ teaching about the Good Shepherd, in John 10, is directly connected to his Reformed Sabbath teaching. The “Good Shepherd” motif is the conclusion of a long Sabbath debate that started in John 9.
John 9:1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
John 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?”
John 9:3 Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
John 9:5 “While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”
John 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.
John 9:15 Then the Pharisees also were asking him again how he received his sight. And he said to them, “He applied clay to my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”
John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.”
But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.
The NT is full of Jesus’ Reformed Sabbath teaching, as well as the division, debate, and Gospel instruction that followed. Those who fail to gasp Jesus NC Sabbath teaching, have failed to grasp the genuine Gospel. To know the genuine Christ is to also know what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. Get this point about the Sabbath wrong, and, according to Christ, you will remain a sinner, spiritually “blind” and lost.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
Let all pay attention to Jesus’ NC Sabbath instruction; Eternal life depends on carefully following what Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath and the Good Shepherd teaches about the 7th day.
Bob 2 said: 6. With the contention that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Sabbath (Matt. 11:28-30) the Sabbath is not abolished in every sense. Jesus is the reality of our Sabbath rest (Col 2:16-17).
Tom replied: Wrong. There are no OT prophecies about the Sabbath for the Messiah to fulfill. I have asked you to post these “Sabbath Prophecies” many times, if they exist. But you just ignore the request, because you know there are no such texts. But yet, you still pretend such myths are true.
If you can’t produce any serious OT passage about the Messiah “fulfilling” the Sabbath, then you lose the point, and NCT falls in heap of garbage. You can’t find such a passage because it does not exist, thus NCT is based on nonsense and error.
Neither Moses nor Jesus teaches that the Christ was to be the “fulfillment” of the Sabbath. There is no truth to this absurd rumor, started by the NCT crowed in the 1970’s. NCT is fabricated nonsense, blasphemy that mocks the words and teachings of Christ. NCT main “contentions” are groundless and absurd.
However, glad to see that you think the Sabbath still stands, in some sense, in the NC. But this claim that Jesus is our “Sabbath rest” is impossible. There is no such doctrine as a “resting” Sabbath in the NC. Only in the OC is there a “resting” Sabbath. NOT THE NC.
Bob 2 said: At the end of Chapter 13, Tom Wells quotes D. R. Lacey, "The Sabbath/Sunday Question and the Law in the Pauline Corpus"
Paul's contribution to our quest, then, is limited but of significance.
Tom said: Wrong. Paul is not the primary source to understand the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. It is the Sabbath “contribution” of Christ that takes precedence over Paul or anyone else. What Jesus teaches about the 7th day in the Gospels is of great significance; this is what the church must follow. Those who run to Paul to learn the Sabbath are running AWAY from Christ. This is a fatal error.
Bob 2 said: While he (Paul) forbids us from stating that Christians may not observe Sunday as the Christian day par excellence, he also forbids us from imposing such observance as a duty upon our fellow believers. Since, at least in much of the world, Sunday is allowed to the majority of us as a day of rest and a day suitable for worship, we may surely gratefully receive it as such; but our study of Paul forbids us from erecting any theological edifice upon this convenient, but fortuitous [providential] fact.
Tom replied: Wow! What a bunch of double-talk and diversion! First, the church should not be “grateful” for false doctrine. This is a sinful and wicked position that is self-condemned from the start.
Second, Paul hardly defends a Sunday Sabbath, which was not an option or a subject of debate in the 1st century. Paul does not “forbid” anyone from condemning or “rebuking” the false doctrine of Sunday keeping, much less any other false doctrine, of which there are many.
2Tim. 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
1Cor. 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.
The Gospel does not contain a Sunday Sabbath or the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment where it was sinful to work. Nor did Paul, much less Christ, preach any such doctrine.
Paul condemns anyone that embraces a false Gospel, including the circumcision party that was a champion not only for ritual circumcision, but also for the Law of the 4th Commandment where it was sinful for anyone but the Levites to work on the 7th day.
Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Here Paul attacks the Jewish and SDA view of the Sabbath. He condemns those OC minded souls who are trying to obey the 4th Commandment Law of Moses, which Christ does not teach or endorse.
No wonder the 1888 debate was so traumatic for the SDA’s. They were unable and unwilling to admit that their great Sabbath doctrine could be wrong. Thus they held on to the OC “schoolmaster Sabbath” with both hands, refusing new Gospel truth that would have led them to discover the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.
This great error resulted in the collapse of the Battle Creek Empire. Showing that the SDA’s are the modern equivalent of the Circumcision Party, where law trumps Gospel for all to see. Of course they also repeated these legalistic errors in Takoma Park, and once again, melted down after 1980, as millions and millions walked out the door.
Paul makes it clear in Galatians, that the 4th Commandment is no longer binding on the church. This is exactly what Christ had already established in his ministry. No Christian is under the law of the 4th Commandment. Which means that the SDA’s were very wrong in 1888 and still today.
Christians NOT Under the 10 C’s
Here is the KJ version that was in use during the 1888 debates:
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith, which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Here is a modern version:
Gal. 3:21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
Gal. 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a 1atutor.
Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
The SDA’s have the wrong doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. For this they must repent and make the necessary change. If they refuse, they are doomed. So far, they refuse.
Bob, you need to stop citing worthless and wrong sources. Just because some religious hack publishes a book, so what? It means nothing. Most all religious professionals are trite, worthless, and wrong. They write legions of useless books to support their many false views. So what? The fact is: Jesus never taught a Sunday Sabbath; and anyone that thinks he did, or thinks the NT allows such a farce, is following a worthless Gospel and a false Christ.
Tom Norris said: There are scores and scores of Gospel verses where Jesus teaches, defends, and promotes his active and reformed 7th day Sabbath. This includes a number of Sabbath debates between Jesus and the Pharisees. Why do you pretend otherwise?
The fact that you don’t think such a 1st century record exists, only makes you appear delusional and uneducated. The Gospels are available to all. Those who refuse to read, study, and embrace what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath will be banished from the Kingdom of God. They are blind to the Gospel, having chosen to follow others that are also blind.
Bob Sands said: This does not equal a command or mandate for the New Covenant. You have been able to supply such so peddle your wares elsewhere. Christ as Lord of the Sabbath can do with the Sabbath what He wishes with His authority. He chose to fulfill it. As has been previously quoted in Matthew where "soul rest" is promised if one comes to Christ. This is the ultimate goal of the Christian.
Tom said: Those who place false words in the mind and mouth of Christ have lost their minds, as well as Eternal Life. For anyone to claim that: 1) Jesus choose to fulfill the Sabbath of Moses, then 2) abolish it, then 3) change to an Every Day Sabbath of spiritual rest, does not know Christ. They have embraced outrageous blasphemy. NCT is poison.
Bob 2 said: The Gospel, no matter how much you protest, were pre New Covenant. Jesus words were anticipatory of the New Covenant/Kingdom of God. The Last Supper proves this when introducing the Lord's Supper the night before He dies for our sins. At that time the curtain in the Temple was torn from top to bottom and nothing in the "Most Holy Place" was holy again, including the Ten Commandment.
Tom replied: Your position that the Gospels do not apply to the church is beyond absurd. Jesus represents the NC, and so too his teachings in all four Gospels. Your lack of education and common sense expose your views as ludicrous and irrational. You need to get yourself educated about the basics of theology, because you are a loose cannon, out of control and very dangerous.
Bob 2 said: Only restated law and commands are part of the New Covenant. The Sabbath is not one of those tenets. The discussions with the Pharisees was because they had constructed manmade laws that the Lord of the Sabbath said were perverse.
Tom said: Wrong. What do you think Jesus was doing with the 4th Commandment? He was “restating” and reforming it to fit with the NC Gospel and the Priesthood of All Believers. The Pharisees refused to embrace Jesus Gospel Sabbath. Look what happened to those that refused the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. It was tragic.
Bob 2 wrote: Tom said I teach an Every day Sabbath. He is obsessed with a day being necessary in the Gospel. There is none. Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath in His flesh, Col 2:16,17 and the Sabbath of the Old Covenant was listed as ceremonial in Lev 23 at the top of the list.
Tom said: First, it is beyond refutation that there is a 7th day Sabbath embedded in the Gospel Story. This cannot be denied because this is what Jesus teaches over and over in the Gospels. Why do you refuse to admit this obvious, Semitic fact? It is such a clear and repeated part of the Gospel record, which includes Judaism, that it is stunning anyone would try to deny such plain facts.
Second, it is an un-refuted fact that Jesus never claimed to be the “fulfillment of the Sabbath.” There is no such passage. This singular point is enough to overthrow NCT. And it does!''
Third, Jesus was “obsessed” with his new view of the active, 7th day Sabbath. This explains why he was always having long public debates with the Jews about the Sabbath. That is also why he calls himself the Lord of the Sabbath. Jesus was OBSESSED with the 7th day. He thought it was very important, necessary, and special. Anyone that denies what Christ teaches about the 7th day, has denied Christ and God. Don’t shoot the messenger.
Bob said: Of course Jesus claimed fulfillment of the whole OC/OT in Luke 24: 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Tom said: Ha! This is comical. There are no Sabbath prophecies in the OT for Christ to fulfill. Nor did he ever make such a claim. So stop making things up. The passage you cite has zero to do with the Sabbath. You need to be more respectful of the Word. At this point it is clear that you will twist Christ’s words at will; all in a futile attempt to defend NCT with it’s anti-Christ, anti-Gospel doctrine of the Sabbath. Sad.
Bob said: Matthew 11:29" Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."
Tom said: This passage is not saying Jesus is the fulfillment of the Sabbath, even though it foreshadows a Sabbath debate, which starts the very next verse. You need to find the many passages where Jesus is teaching about the Sabbath and learn from him. Not make things up and try to make Christ say what you want to hear. That is a fatal game.
Bob 2 said: The ultimate goal of the Christian pilgrimage is "soul rest" and Jesus fulfills that which the keeping of a day cannot give.
Tom said: Wrong. Where do you get this awful stuff? The term “soul rest” is not even in the Bible; it is a made up term. Just stop and use some common sense. How can the “ultimate goal” of the Christian be reduced to a religious term that does not exist in the scriptures or the teachings of Christ?
Rest is not a goal, much less the point of the Gospel. Mankind was created for activity and good works, not for inactivity and rest, which is a synonym for death in the NT. Let everyone stop manipulating the words of Christ. This is a fatal sin.
Eph. 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Bob 2 said: The Gospel does not include a holy day mandate, if it were included, it would be in Christ's Law/God's Law and no mention of such a mandate has been shown by Tom Norris or the Gospels or the rest of the NT.
Tom replied: While Jesus does not teach a holy 7th day, where it is sinful to work, he does teach an active, guilt-free, Sabbath doctrine, which is supported by the Priesthood of All Believers. Jesus Sabbath instruction is found in all four Gospels.
What Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath, is part of the “law of Christ.” All that claim to follow Christ must also embrace what he teaches about the 7th day. Those that refuse, like the Jews did, are repudiating Christ and the Gospel. They will be lost, and so too anyone today that refuses to embrace what Christ teaches about the Gospel Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: The word commandment does not always mean a collection of laws that includes the Sabbath, Reformed or otherwise. The whole discussion in Heb 4 shows that another day, TODAY, is designated by God for man. That is, salvation and rest for the soul is available every day. Tom mocks this and shows his lack of discernment.
Tom replied: Would that everyone had enough “discernment” to mock false and heretical doctrine. I make no apologies for exposing NCT as utter nonsense. Moreover, Hebrews 4 is not the source to understand Jesus’ NC Sabbath doctrine. Nor does it support Sunday or the EveryDay Sabbath, or what the SDA’s teach. Sorry.
The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242
Bob 2 said: I have answered all his questions in previous posts.
Tom replied: Ha! This is too comical! You have not been able to defend NCT. You have not been able to find any passage where the Messiah was supposed to “fulfill” the Sabbath. Nor have you found any passage where Christ teaches a resting Sabbath of any kind, much less an Every Day spiritual Sabbath rest.
I could go on and on showing that you have not addressed the issues honestly or properly, nor have you even tried. Your view that Jesus teaches OC doctrine in the Gospels, and that he meant to say the Sabbath was made, NOT for all mankind, but only for the Jews is beyond absurd. It is laughable.
Most all of your views, and that of NCT are a joke. You have lost the debate long ago and it only gets worse as you try to go on. Why not surrender to truth and enjoy the Gospel? It will change your sorry attitude and life…
Bob 2 said: There is further review of the book "New Covenant Theology" and that is what I will continue with.
Tom said: NCT cannot stand. It is built on sand, not solid Gospel theology. Sorry. Give it up before it is too late and embrace the genuine Gospel. This is your only hope.
Bob 2 said: Tom I take back what I said, you are welcome to show your Reformed Sabbath concept, because all can see nowhere in the Bible, or in scholarship points to it.
Tom said: Thanks for nothing. I have no intention of allowing myself to be censored by you or anyone, including Spectrum, which has recently conspired to censor Adventist Reform, even as they try to raise money so they can promote “reform.” They are typical liars, like all SDA’s.
No wonder the word “truth” is no long associated or used by the SDA’s. They have long ago become embarrassed of such a word, and for good reason. They have very little, if any.
The Gospel is not about censorship or trying to manipulate the discussion away from the issues. This is how the Jews acted, and look what happened to them? The SDA’s will never escape their dysfunction if they keep censoring the facts and running from the issues. Censorship and searching for truth are the opposite.
Bob 2 said: You are an army of one that can not show the mandate and your further talk, shows where your falsehood is based. Feel free to post. But NCT is far from refuted, by your singular declaration, it is arrogant and shows lack of discernment.
Tom said: Regardless whether an army of one or one million, NCT has been exposed as utter nonsense and double-talk for all to see. It is an absurd and ludicrous solution to the false Sabbath doctrine of the SDA’s. It is no solution at all; only more false and confused doctrine for those not being saved. Pitiful.
Conclusion
While the SDA’s are correct that Sunday is wrong, and that only the 7th day can be the NC Sabbath; they have misunderstood Jesus amazing, reformed, Sabbath doctrine where activity has replaced rest, and the 4th Commandment has been made moot by Christ.
The “blind” SDA’s should stop pretending that they have all Gospel truth. They are not even close. In fact, their most prominent doctrine, the 7th day Sabbath, is wrong, wrong, wrong. Which means they must repent, and focus on serious Adventist Reform.
As for NCT, their proposed Sabbath solution is also wrong and anti-Christ. They too must repent for their false and absurd doctrine of the Sabbath, and only embrace the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Is anyone listening?
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Offline
NC Sabbath Defeats NCT; Paving The Way For Adventist Reform
Bob 2 said: Chapter 15 Our Creeds [Lists of Fundamentals] and How They Affect Our Understanding. Bear with me again, while I wax, eloquent??? What is a Creed? As defined:
Creed: a brief authoritative formula of religious belief
2: a set of fundamental beliefs [SDAs now have 28]
3: a guiding principle
From a book I have been reviewing, "New Covenant Theology" by Wells and Zaspel, Wells sums up the divisions among Christian denominations this way:
"1. Our creeds and confessions are one immense barrier to unity.
Tom replied: Correct. This goes for the SDA’s as well. They operate from their own incorrect, 19th century views, which they have made into a creed in 1980, following the debacle of Glacier View.
Glacier View was the start of the great 20th century, SDA schism. The Adventists have been going downhill and losing MILLIONS of members ever since. Why? Because their IJ based Creed is full of error and false doctrines, as well as false and manipulated church history.
Let everyone understand, the SDA’s are self-destructing because they have not only rejected the Gospel in 1980, but also because they have embraced false views about both Adventist history and doctrine. Glacier View was the place where the SDA leaders, not Dr. Ford, repudiated Ellen White and the Fundamental pillars that govern the Three Angels Messages.
The 27 Fundamentals, (now 28), is the written creed for the SDA’s. It represented the victory of the Takoma Park apologists, (over the objections of Dr. Ford, etc) to resurrect and codify Uriah Smith’s Battle Creek errors that led to the great 1888 disaster. It was as if the Takoma Park leaders were trying to re-create the disastrous 1888 debate and force it to come out in a different, more positive manner. But history is not so easily toyed with, especially if it is dishonestly manipulated into a staged outcome.
Glacier View was a repeat of the theology that destroyed the Battle Creek Empire. It represented Old Covenant Adventism at is worst, and so too the written creed that resulted. Unless Adventism repents for what happened in 1888 and the subsequent cover-up in Takoma Park, and for Glacier View and the creed that followed, the Advent Movement will die.
The SDA’s must admit their errors and correct them. Errors such as the IJ, Tithe, OC Sabbath keeping, and the Muslim doctrine of abstinence. They must also update their Sunday based eschatology and get serious about how the world will end in the 21st century.
Today, it is clear that MILLIONS of baptized members have walked out the door, rejecting OC Adventism. And more leave all the time. The SDA creed is full of false doctrine. It needs to be re-written. Adventism must become TRANSFORMED into a NEW COVENANT community. This is their only hope.
Bob 2 posted: 2. There is no easy or obvious way to cross this divide." Page 259.
Tom replied: Wrong. It should be very obvious that tradition should take a back seat to what Jesus teaches in the Gospels. If this primary rule is followed, the church can reach unity in the Gospel, which includes an agreement about the definition of the NC Sabbath.
Today, few pay any attention to what Jesus teaches, which is why no denomination teaches the correct, genuine, NC Sabbath of Christ. NONE! No wonder Jesus has condemned the entire Laodicean Church, calling them blind, naked, and wretched. They don’t know the Gospel Story very well or what Christ really teaches. They are only pretending to “see” correct theology, just like the “blind” Pharisees in the Sabbath debates. (See John 9)
Bob 2 said: Oh you say, sometime in my SDA education I was told we don't have creeds, and if you attend other than an SDA church occasionally, you might believe that because, as the order of worship, creeds are read congregationally. However, look at the definition. A creed is a set of fundamental beliefs. Which the SDA church has 28 Fundamental Beliefs, I have the old version of 27.
Tom said: Yes, the SDA’s are being very untruthful when they claim they don’t have a written Creed. Of course they do. It was written directly after Glacier View in 1980. It is very wrong, full of error and confusion, including the errors of the IJ, Tithe, as well as a false Gospel, including a false, OC view of the Sabbath.
As creeds go, it is one of the worst and most theologically absurd. Most of what the SDA’s teach for “fundamental” truth is really “fundamental ERROR!” For which they must repent. Today, myths pass for facts and no SDA really claims to understand present truth. The SDA’s are blind to truth, and so too the NCT crowd. They are just as wrong and stubborn.
Bob 2 said: Are these barriers to our open discussion and study of Truth and God's Word?? How many of your high school chums or dates, had an interest in, let alone an understanding of what they believe?
Tom replied: Ha! The SDA’s are no longer searching for truth. Which is why they do not allow any serious discussion about their awful creed. Glacier View was “show trial,” a farce, and so too the 1888 debates in the 19th century. After a certain point in history, the SDA’s became wedded to their traditions and stopped searching for truth, even covering it up.
Today, not even Spectrum allows open and free discussion, as they loudly claim. Which means they are great liars, because they assert they are looking to save the dysfunctional and dying Advent Movement through open discussion, when they are doing no such thing; they are part of the problem. It is not truth they seek, but money to carry on their worthless scam of enabling a corrupt, anti-Christ hierarchy to highjack and mislead the Advent Community.
Adventist Reform, which stands on the shoulders of Dr. Ford, has been blacklisted from the very moment Tom Norris started posting online 15 years ago. Every SDA media outlet refuses to allow any serious discussion about what Tom Norris found hidden in the Archives and
White Estate. Why is that? Pitiful.
Bob 2 said: Wells and Zaspel come out of Reformed Theology and the concepts they are presenting they have found are not easily discussed because there are those that cling out of habit to what has been assembled in a creed or confession, such as the Westminster Confession.
Tom replied: The SDA’s are not the only ones that formed a creed and then refused further investigation of doctrine. This is human nature. The Jews did the exact same thing. When Christ came, with his many new changes about the law, Sabbath, the Priesthood, and salvation, he did not stand much of a chance of convincing the Jews to change the OC into the NC. The OC “creed” of Moses was defended by the Jews to the death. Most would not accept the NC.
John 9:26 So they said to him, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?”
John 9:27 He answered them, “I told you already and you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?”
John 9:28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses.
Bob 2 said: If you have ever perused it (googled it) you can see what I am getting at, especially it's manmade position on the Sabbath.
Tom said: Adventist Reform is not about defending creeds. That is hardly a method calculated to find truth. At this point in history, every denominational creed is faulty and wrong. Not one has the correct doctrine of the NC Sabbath. Most don’t even have the correct day! And those that do, like the SDA’s, have embraced the Sabbath doctrine of Jesus enemies; not what Christ teaches in the Gospels.
It is time for the church to finally and fully understand the Gospel, which includes the doctrine of the Sabbath, as well as eschatology and all else. The end of the world is near, the Laodicean Church stands under the judgment of Christ in the real PAJ, which is the LM. It is time for the Advent Movement to pay attention and repent for the mess they have made of the 3rd Angels Message; moving on the 4th Angels Message, where all doctrine must synchronize with the Gospel of Christ.
Bob 2 said: NCT does believe that the Old and New Covenant have a "fracture point" or point of "discontinuity".
Tom replied: NCT wants to “abolish” the 7th day Sabbath, and the Sunday Sabbath doctrine as well. They do not wish to understand this NC doctrine as taught by Christ, but to destroy and manipulate it because they think they have found some great insight about the Two Covenants. They are anti-Christ as well as anti-Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: If you read the texts that I have given, something happened, a change in beliefs at the cross, no longer does Lev 23 ceremonial festivals apply, and number one on that list is the Sabbath. One can not ignore some of this.
Tom replied: It is very difficult to correctly understand the difference between the OC and the NC. In fact, this was a major point of contention within the early church and later with Marcion, and then again during the Reformation. It is the most problematic of theological endeavors, with the RC’s taking a different view from the Protestants.
When the Gospel instruction of Christ is correctly understood, so too the doctrine of the (7th day) Sabbath. Misunderstand the active and reformed Sabbath, and you have misunderstood Christ and the Two Covenants. Few understand that the active and guilt free NC Sabbath of Christ is a reflection of the Priesthood of All Believers, as well as freedom from for those not under the law.
Jesus does not teach anyone to obey the 4th Commandment. That is what his enemies taught. This was a stunning point for the Jews to hear, and for the SDA’s today that are clueless as to what Jesus really teaches about the 7th day. Like the Jews, they are blind to the Gospel and the NC Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: The splitting of the Jewish system by SDA scholars, or shall I say Covenant Theology Scholars have divided it into ceremonial, civil, and moral. As I have studied, the Bible does not do this but treats the Jewish Covenant as one: Exodus 34:28; Luke 24:44; 2 Cor 3:7-11(notice the word "transitory" in reference to the Decalogue, the center of the 1st Covenant); Col 2:16,17; 1 Cor 9:21 and Hebrews 8:13.
Tom said: Most all Christians are confused about the Law and the Gospel. In fact, the RC’s hold a very different position from the Protestants, one that reflects OC Judaism, not the Gospel.
In spite of what many teach, including the SDA’s, no Christian is “under” the 10 Commandment law. Not even when it comes to the 4th Commandment. This is what Galatians is all about.
No wonder the SDA’s went to war over this book. They did not understand law, Gospel, or the Sabbath correctly. Their views of the Two Covenants were warped and way off base. The 1888 debates made these errors public, showing how divided the leaders had become over doctrine. The Battle Creek Church self-destructed 12 years later as a result.
While the SDA’s were correct about the 7th day versus the 1st, they were not paying attention to what Jesus was teaching, because he was not instructing anyone to stop working on the Sabbath, like Moses. Had they been honest about the Galatian debate, they would have been forced to abandon their legalist view of the 7th day, exchanging it for the active and guiltless, NC, Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
What’s done is done. Now there must be zealous repentance and the promotion of the correct, NC version of the Sabbath, which is “new light” for the church. New light that should have become understood by the SDA’s way back in 1888. Here is Ellen White’s, post 1888 response to the question of new light for the church:
Ellen White & New Light:
The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?"
I answer that he has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the word of truth.
We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us.
We are not making the most of the light, which the Lord has already given us, and thus we fail to receive the increased light; we do not walk in light already shed upon us.
{RH, June 3, 1890 par. 2} {1SM 401.2}
We must not for a moment think that there is no more light, no more truth to be given us. We are in danger of becoming careless, by our indifference losing the sanctifying power of truth, and composing ourselves with the thought, "I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing." [REV. 3:17.] While we must hold fast to the truths, which we have already received, we must not look with suspicion upon any new light that God may send.
{GW92 390.1} {RH, August 7, 1894 par. 1} {GW 310.4} Ellen G. White, Gospel Workers (1892), page 390, paragraph 1
"There are mines of truth yet to be discovered." (5T 704).
"We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light yet to come to us." (RH, June 3, 1890).
"There are old, yet new truths still to be added to the treasures of our knowledge." (RH: February 25, 1890).
"There are bright and important truths of which we only discern the shadows." (E.G. White, Letter 147, 1897).
"Investigation of every point that has been received as truth will repay the searcher: He will find precious gems. And in closely investigating ever jot and tittle which we think is established truth, in comparing Scripture with Scripture, we may discover errors in our interpretation of Scripture." (RH: July 12, 1889; par. 15).
http://www.enjoying-the-spirit-filled-l … uotes.html
Today, there is New Light ABOUT THE SABBATH for the Adventist Community. Is anyone listening? Does anyone care?
Bob asked: Is Christ's Law the Decalogue?
Tom said: No. This term, the law of Christ, is used by Paul to define the teachings and sayings of Jesus as opposed to Moses’ OC doctrines. Thus the Sabbath law of Christ is what JESUS teaches in the Gospel about the 7th day. It is not, not, not, what Moses teaches in the OT. The Law of Moses is not, not, not, the same as the Law of Christ.
Gal. 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
Bob 2 said: Those that are reading or care about this topic, read about God setting another day for Christians in Hebrews 4:6-11. He is not talking the Sabbath here but on any day one can have "soul rest" as Jesus said he would give in Matt 11:29. This is forgiveness of sins, not mere physical rest on one day in seven.
Tom replied: First, everyone should care about the doctrine of the Sabbath because it was one of Christ’s favorite topics. It also underscores the fact that he is the creator of the world and the original, non-Semitic, 7th day Sabbath. One cannot fully understand the Gospel, unless the NC Sabbath teachings of Christ are also comprehended.
Second, the definition of the NC Sabbath cannot be defined or controlled by any remarks from the unknown author of Hebrews. Only what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath, in the Gospels, is doctrine for the church. Others do not have such primacy or authority as compared to Christ.
Third, there is no such term as “soul rest.” Nor is this mythical term in any way associated with the NC Sabbath of Christ. In fact, Jesus refused to embrace the OC, passive, Sabbath of Moses and the 4th Commandment. He REFUSED to “rest” on the 7th day, teaching that activity and good works now replaces the Law of the 4th Commandment.
Fourth, this passage in Hebrews supports the NC Sabbath, not the OC Sabbath of Moses, or the later developing Sunday Sabbath or the recently invented Every Day Sabbath of NCT. Only the NC Sabbath, as taught by Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath, is genuine and true Gospel doctrine.
The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242
Bob 2 said: Just an observation about TRUTH; Truth is not subjective.
Tom replied: Agreed. Gospel Truth must rest on the words, teachings, and sayings of Christ in the Gospels. Jesus is truth, light, and Eternal Life. Those that misunderstand Christ, are left embracing worthless error. All of Laodicea misunderstands Christ’s Gospel teachings. The various confused and conflicting doctrines of the Sabbath proves this point for all to see.
Neither the SDA’s nor the NCT crowd has solved the Sabbath conundrum. Thanks to Dr. Ford, the genuine doctrine has finally emerged. The active and reformed, NC, 7th day, Sabbath is Present Truth for the last church.
Bob 2 said: Yes, there are texts in the Bible that allow differing positions to be possible, and debatable. But, in accepting TRUTH one has to recognize this and treat other TRUTH seekers evenly.
Tom said: There is only one Gospel and one Christ. There is only one, narrow, path of truth that leads to Eternal life, not many.
Matt. 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
This idea that there are many ways to view the Bible; is a diversion, an excuse for false doctrine and pluralism. Jesus does not hold such a view, so why should his followers?
When an honest and professional hermeneutic is employed, Gospel doctrine can be readily understood.
However, it is a fact of history that those in religious power soon become corrupted. Tradition and politics trump truth. The Jews, as well as the church are two prime examples where the debate over doctrine revolved around what was true and what was not.
The Protestant Reformation featured a correct and more honest methodology than the RCC, and this hermeneutical knowledge has been improved and updated to the point where we can readily comprehend the context and intent of the original authors today.
So forget this nonsense that the Bible can be understood in many different ways, making it impossible to understand truth. That is only true for those too lazy, pre-occupied, uneducated, or dishonest to use the proper methods. The Bible contains clear Gospel Truth for those serious about Eternal Life. Those that honestly seek, will find.
Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Luke 12:29 “And do not seek what you will eat and what you will drink, and do not keep worrying.
Luke 12:30 “For all these things the nations of the world eagerly seek; but your Father knows that you need these things.
Luke 12:31 “But seek His kingdom, and these things will be added to you.
Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Bob 2 said: To shun so your position doesn't have to be revealed is not Peacemaker status for the shunner, but cowardice. To keep silent at this point stalls the shunner's journey as a TRUTH seeker.
Tom replied: Correct. This is what the SDA’s do. They censor their critics instead of holding serious discussions to deal with the issues. This is why they are dying. They refuse to discuss the very issues that must be discussed, shunning those like Dr. Ford, and now Tom Norris, that push for much needed Gospel reform.
Rather than admit they were wrong about 1888 and Glacier View, they stubbornly pretend they have made no errors and hold no false doctrines. Thus silencing the very discussion about Gospel Reform that needs to take place.
Thank heaven for the Internet, which is like the modern day Guttenberg Press that made the Reformation possible. Such an invention makes it impossible for anyone to silence criticism or stop debate, much less control the agenda. Today, the planet is wired so that the Gospel can be preached to all. Those true of heart can find each other, and prepare for the great Tribulation, which has never been closer.
Adventist Reform is not going to go away because the leaders have determined it should be censored, silenced, and stopped. The very fact these wolves have worked so hard to keep Adventist Reform away from the Community proves they fear what it contains. Wolves are not dumb animals; they are cunning, smart, and deadly, unlike sheep.
However, Gospel truth is not easily intimidated. Adventist Reform cannot be silenced or censored away. Which is why those that seek truth can go online and view the details of Adventist Reform, including the facts that prove the White Estate corrupt, even though this discussion is off limits within the Adventist Community. Shunning no longer works in the 21st century. Neither do “cover-ups.”
Bob 2 said: Peacemakers are not those that ignore the confrontation. Sometimes confrontation and revelation must be used to reveal the position of both sides to become evident. By confrontation I do not mean abusive tone, or volume, or shameful remarks. It tests the TRUTH seeker, will he/she be willing to overturn the moneychangers tables with a whip in hand or go silent and allow the UNTRUTH to remain.
Tom replied: Why do you think Adventist Reform, which is a NC paradigm, is censored, shunned, and banished by the OC minded SDA Denomination? The leaders realize that cannot refute any point. They are beginning to see that the OC and the NC cannot be successfully mixed, which is what they have done.
They also know that Tom Norris caught Author White manipulating and falsifying the record, which is a criminal situation, as well as moral. And that the cover-up put in place has come undone for all to see.
Moreover, they know that the IJ cannot be defended, and now they fear that their dishonest income stream from OC tithing is also under attack, along with most of what they teach, including their great doctrine of the Sabbath. It is an overwhelming situation that has caused millions and millions to leave. Unless there is serious, careful reform, including repentance, the Advent Movement will die.
Rather then welcome the chance to repent and update their many false doctrines, the leaders shut off serious discussion and pretend they have all truth. Then they hold a so-called “historic” and “unprecedented” meeting to find a way to address this crisis by “rebranding” Adventism. What does that even mean to the hierarchy? Not anything serious about doctrine.
What they are talking about when they “examine the church’s mission structure”?
Answer: The leaders are trying to cut down the bloated and failing bureaucracy. This is an exercise in downsizing and budget slashing. Which is why the Review is also being shut down. Adventism is dying; no one should be fooled any more.
The leaders have been going in the wrong direction for so long that this situation was inevitable. But yet, they still don’t understand that it is their false doctrine and arrogant behavior that has caused millions to leave the church. While top-heavy budgets must be slashed, so too false doctrine that is destroying the Advent Movement.
http://www.adventistreview.org/church-n … -structure
The SDA’s need to “re-examine” their doctrines, including what they teach about Ellen White. They need to “re-examine” why the history of 1888 has been covered up by the White Estate, and what the real issues were that caused the church to self-destruct in Battle Creek.
Unless the SDA’s deal with the heart of the problem, which is their incorrect theology, they can never resolve the issues. The need a complete overhaul and re-organization. Otherwise, they will die.
Bob 2 said: Tom, what puzzles me about conversations with you here and watching you do the same on Experts, you never once show where Jesus taught the Sabbath. Please supply it or go away!!! It is the issue at hand.
Tom replied: Bob, you are a great liar. Why are you being a false witness? Don’t you know that it was the enemies of Christ that used “false testimony” to send him to the cross? Why are you playing these same games? To defend NCT?
Matt. 26:59 Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus, so that they might put Him to death.
Luke 18:20 “You know the commandments, ‘DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.’”
Eph. 4:25 Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another.
Come on Bob, we have gone over this many times. I have quoted scores of Jesus’ NC Sabbath instruction, including his famous statement that the original, and the NC Sabbath, was made for all mankind, which you refuse to believe. You reject Jesus words and claim he meant the OC Sabbath, which is only for the Jews.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Regardless if you believe Christ or not; Stop making the false statement that Tom Norris has never shown you any passages “where Jesus taught the Sabbath.” It is a knowingly false statement. Shame on you.
You sound like the Pharisees that refused to believe Jesus Sabbath healings were real. Because if they were real, meaning from God,-then Jesus would also be from God. But God does not allow work on the 7th day, -that is sinful. So it was very confusing for the Jews.
See also:
NC Sabbath @ All Experts.Com
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm
So the Jews struggled with this conundrum, denying the facts they did not want to hear. While the now sighted man believed in Jesus, the Pharisees refused to accept or believe that Jesus, the Sabbath breaker, was from God, or that he had just healed a blind man on the Sabbath. The Jews REFUSED to believe the Gospel evidence, just like so many today.
Here is a portion from of a very interesting and instructive Sabbath debate in John 9. It was Jesus and the NC Sabbath versus the Jews, with their OC Sabbath doctrine from Moses. (Note: There are two earlier Sabbath debates in John 5 or 7.)
John 9:10 So they were saying to him, “How then were your eyes opened?”
John 9:11 He answered, “The man who is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes, and said to me, ‘Go to Siloam and wash’; so I went away and washed, and I received sight.”
John 9:12 They said to him, “Where is He?” He *said, “I do not know.”
John 9:13 They brought to the Pharisees the man who was formerly blind.
John 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.
John 9:15 Then the Pharisees also were asking him again how he received his sight. And he said to them, “He applied clay to my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”
John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.
John 9:17 So they said to the blind man again, “What do you say about Him, since He opened your eyes?” And he said, “He is a prophet.”
John 9:18 The Jews then did not believe it of him, that he had been blind and had received sight, until they called the parents of the very one who had received his sight,
John 9:19 and questioned them, saying, “Is this your son, who you say was born blind? Then how does he now see?”
John 9:20 His parents answered them and said, “We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind;
John 9:21 but how he now sees, we do not know; or who opened his eyes, we do not know. Ask him; he is of age, he will speak for himself.”
John 9:22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews; for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone confessed Him to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue.
John 9:23 For this reason his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”
John 9:24 So a second time they called the man who had been blind, and said to him, “Give glory to God; we know that this man is a sinner.”
John 9:25 He then answered, “Whether He is a sinner, I do not know; one thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.”
John 9:26 So they said to him, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?”
John 9:27 He answered them, “I told you already and you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?”
John 9:28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses.
John 9:29 “We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where He is from.”
John 9:30 The man answered and said to them, “Well, here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes.
John 9:31 “We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.
John 9:32 “Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind.
John 9:33 “If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.”
John 9:34 They answered him, “You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?” So they put him out.
Read the rest of this long Sabbath debate, and stop pretending Jesus has nothing to say or teach about the 7th day Sabbath. There are scores and scores of verses in the Gospels where Jesus directly deals with his NC doctrine of the Sabbath. Those who deny such teaching exist, --deny Christ. They are acting like the faithless Jews in the Gospel Story that refused to embrace Jesus NC Sabbath doctrine.
The NCT crowd (as well as others) is walking in the evil footsteps of the Pharisees by refusing to believe that Jesus teaches a NC doctrine of the Sabbath. They are so “blind” as to deny, not that Jesus healed a man born blind, but that Jesus teaches a NC, 7th day Sabbath for the church. They can “see” no such doctrine. Nor do they want to open their eyes so as to see.
Like the Pharisees who denied the public evidence right in front of their faces, (the healed man born blind), the NCT crowd claims no one can show “where Jesus taught the Sabbath. Please supply it or go away!!!”
Really? You have seen no Gospel passages where Christ teaches about the Sabbath? And no one has shown you any such texts? Really? Come on Bob, you can’t be serious?
The entire 9th chapter of John, some of which is quoted above, is all about Jesus NC Sabbath instruction versus the status quo of the OC Sabbath. And don’t forget chapters 5 and 7; they too are full of Jesus Sabbath teachings. The Gospel of John contains more Sabbath instruction from Christ than any other Gospel. But yet, you claim no such Gospel instruction exits.
You must be spiritually blind.
NCT is blind to the Gospel Sabbath of Christ by choice. Just like the Jews that were blind to Jesus healing the blind man. No doubt if the NCT crowd were around in the 1st century, they too would doubt, like the Pharisees, that Jesus healed anyone. They too would question and deny what had taken place right in full view of the public, even as they also refused to try and understand Jesus’ NC Sabbath doctrine.
Of course Jesus responded to their refusal to believe the living evidence, (the now sighted blind man from birth), and judged the Pharisees to be ”blind” by choice. The man born blind was not blind by his own choice. But the Pharisees, refusing to see the evidence, became blind by choice. They choose to deny the facts, which led to their rejection of the Gospel and their well-deserved condemnation.
John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
John 9:36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”
John 9:37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.”
John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
It is a GOSPEL FACT that Jesus teaches a NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath in all four Gospels. This is self-evident to anyone that reads the Gospels, especially the book of John that contains a number of long Sabbath debates.
Jesus’ view of the Sabbath is very different from what the confused SDA’s teach, or what anyone teaches today, especially NCT, and it is only a matter of time before this stunning point is understood by all that have eyes to see and ears to hear.
Many will never comprehend the Gospel teaching of Christ, and thus they will never understand the Sabbath.
Let all understand; Jesus condemned those that rejected his active, reformed view of the 7th day Sabbath. This should be warning for the NCT crowd, but somehow, they missed the memo. It should also be a warning to the SDA’s that refuse to even consider the fact they could be in error about the Sabbath.
Anyone that denies these clear and repeated facts of the Gospel Story are denying Jesus and his NC Sabbath just like the Pharisees. Christ compares them to “thieves, robbers, and wolves.”
Jesus does not teach a Sunday Sabbath or an Every Day Sabbath doctrine. Nor does he teach a resting Sabbath at all, much less the SDA view that Christ teaches the 4th Commandment. No. Christ does not, not, not, teach the 4th Commandment. If he had, then the Jews would not have been outraged at his Sabbath theology.
The SDA’s have made legalistic fools of themselves for all to see. They must repent and correct their doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. This is where they must start.
At the conclusion of this long Sabbath debate, which takes up all of chapter 9, with its 41 verses, and another 21 verses in chapter 10, the Jews were stunned, divided, and confused. They had never seen such a dramatic miracle where the blind man was given site, nor had they heard such confusing and strange Sabbath theology. High drama, tension, and joy, with plenty of fear, anger, and guilt to go around.
John 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.
John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”
John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”
Few Christians today understand Jesus’ NC theology, which includes what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. Tradition, double-talk, and censorship is the context for what every denomination teaches about the Sabbath, including the SDA’s that were certain that had found the full and complete doctrine. Few know Christ and what he really teaches in the Gospels. Pity.
No wonder there is no correct doctrine of the Sabbath in the church today. The religious leaders are not paying attention to Jesus about anything, much less the Sabbath. Only when the words of Christ are acknowledged, understood, and embraced, can true Gospel doctrine emerge for the “blind” Laodiceans.
Bob 2 said: Tom, if you can back this up you might have something:
Tom replied: Let all understand, the discovery and articulation of the NC Sabbath of Christ, is the long awaited paradigm shift to the 4th Angels Message. So this is “something” not only big, but vital to the survival of the Advent Movement.
The active and reformed, NC doctrine of the Sabbath is a clear signal for the people of the Three Angels Messages to push forward, until the Gospel, as well as the Sabbath and Eschatology, are correctly understood. The Pioneers referred to this future time as the Loud Cry. That time is here.
While Jesus does not teach a holy 7th day, where it is sinful to work, he does teach an active, guilt-free, Sabbath doctrine, which is supported by the Priesthood of All Believers. What Jesus teaches is true doctrine for the church.
Bob 2 said: Give the supporting texts, not via your surmising. Let the Bible speak for itself.
Tom replied: Every Gospel contains Jesus active and reformed Sabbath teaching, making it impossible to overlook, much less claim no such theology exists. While the Gospel of John contains the most information about this topic, each of the synoptic Gospels also feature Jesus amazing Sabbath doctrine. Only a “blind” person could read the Gospels and deny what Christ so clearly and repeatedly teaches.
Adventist Reform is on to something very big. The genuine 7th day Sabbath of Christ has been found for all to see. This represents the final eschatological paradigm shift for the Advent Movement. It is Present Truth for the 21st century church.
It is time for the Advent Community to reject doctrinal error and hierarchical fraud, and instead, repent for the many errors of Traditional Adventism, 1888, and Glacier View, and focus on the search for truth. The SDA’s were on the road to truth at one time, but they have take a number of wrong turns and now they are lost, refusing to admit it and ask for directions.
It is time for New Covenant Adventism to emerge. The end of the world is closer then ever before. It is time for the Advent Movement to rise, shine, and due its duty.
So I say again: It is time for the church to finally and fully understand the Gospel, which includes the doctrine of the Sabbath, as well as eschatology and all else.
The end of the world is near, the Laodicean Church stands under the judgment of Christ in the real PAJ, which is the LM. It is time for the Advent Movement to pay attention and repent for the mess they have made of the 3rd Angels Message; moving on to the 4th Angels Message, where all doctrine must synchronize with the Gospel teachings of Christ.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris, for New Covenant Adventism and the 4th Angels Message
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Bob, you are a silly blind man that thinks he can see. Don’t you realize that YOU are acting like the Pharisees in John 9 that refused to believe Jesus was from God because he was a Sabbath breaker?
The Jews concluded that Jesus did not really heal anyone on the Sabbath, because God does not support those that break the 4th Commandment. And if by some chance these accounts were true, then Jesus did this through the power of Satan.
Either way, they were never going to believe Jesus’ Gospel with its strange working Sabbath, which is based on an even stranger view of the Priesthood and the Temple. So they denied the very evidence in front of their face, (the healed blind man), and refused to embrace Christ.
You are doing the same thing. While you don’t seem to deny that Jesus healed the man born blind, you do deny that Christ teaches a NC, 7th day Sabbath for the church, even though such evidence is clearly contained in the Gospels. By denying the written evidence of Jesus NC Sabbath, you deny Christ and the Gospel, just like the Pharisees. Thus Christ speaks to you as he did to the Gospel hating, law keeping, tithe paying, Jews.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
It is a GOSPEL FACT that Jesus teaches a NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath in all four Gospels. This is not an “opinion” but a clear fact of the record, which is self-evident to anyone that reads the Gospels, especially the book of John that contains a number of long Sabbath debates.
Jesus’ view of the Sabbath is very different from what the confused SDA’s teach, or what anyone teaches today, including NCT, and it is only a matter of time before this stunning point is understood by all that have eyes to see and ears to hear.
Many will never comprehend the Gospel teachings of Christ, and thus they will never understand the Sabbath. You may be stuck in this category.
Rom. 11:8 just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
Let all understand; Jesus condemned those that rejected his active, reformed view of the 7th day Sabbath. This should be warning for the NCT crowd, but somehow, they missed the memo. It should also be a warning to the SDA’s that, like the Jews, refuse to even consider the fact they could be in error about the Sabbath.
Anyone that denies these clear and repeated facts of the Gospel Story are denying Jesus and his NC Sabbath just like the Pharisees. Christ compares them to “thieves, robbers, and wolves.”
Jesus does not teach a Sunday Sabbath or an Every Day Sabbath doctrine. Nor does he teach a resting Sabbath at all, much less the SDA view that Christ teaches the 4th Commandment. No. Christ does not, not, not, teach the 4th Commandment. If he had, then the Jews would not have been outraged at his Sabbath theology.
The SDA’s have made legalistic fools of themselves for all to see, and the NCT crowd is acting no better. They must both repent and correct their doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, as must every denomination and church in the world. To reject Jesus NC Sabbath, is to reject the Gospel, which is what the Jews did and what the present church has also done.
So Bob, you stand self-condemned, spiritually blind and naked, like everyone else in Laodicea. Unable to comprehend the Gospel teachings of Christ, which include what he teaches about the 7th day. Sad.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Bob the blind said: Tom, you don't have anything to contribute.
Tom replied: Ha! This is what Jesus’ critics said to him. The Jews regarded law far above the Gospel, which they could not understand. They were blind to confront, harass, and dismiss their Messiah, rejecting the only theology that could save them. Here is the greatest blunder in the history of mankind, one that has been repeated by the Church.
Mark 3:22 The scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and “He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons.”
Those that are in the dark, unable to comprehend the Gospel, think they see things perfectly. But the Sabbath debates between Jesus and the Jews exposes such religious pretenders as spiritually blind. Anyone that refuses to embrace Jesus active and reformed Sabbath has rejected Christ and will die in their sins. They are judged blind by choice, treated as criminals in the Judgment Day.
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
Bob the blind said: (Tom, you show) No texts showing Jesus taught a New Covenant Sabbath, just your speculation that when Jesus said He and His Father have always been working, you think your New Covenant working Sabbath is proven.
Tom replied: This is the problem with being blind; it is very difficult to see things. Even worse, some people like to be blind and shut their eyes on purpose so that they won’t see anything that refutes their point of view. This is the game the Jews played with Jesus.
The Jews were blind and deaf to the teachings of Christ. All they heard was error, sin, and blasphemy from his mouth. Even Christ, who had the power to make the blind see and the deaf hear, could not heal these stubborn critics that refused to understand the Gospel or embrace his NC doctrine of the Sabbath, which Jesus based on a change in the Priesthood.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Bob the blind said: Jesus and God had been working on Salvation since before the foundations of the earth.
Tom said: The Sabbath is connected to the creation of the world. This is when it started. So your point makes no sense.
Bob the blind said: Your working Sabbath, allowing secular pursuits is no solution.
Tom replied: The solution for every church and denomination in Laodicea; is to repent of their false doctrines and embrace the Gospel teachings of Christ. This also applies to the doctrine of the Sabbath, which no church teaches correctly.
Moreover, we are not to question Christ or second-guess what he means, as if he did not understand what he was saying. The Gospels are very clear as to what Christ teaches about the 7th day and what he does not. No one has any right to change the Gospel Story. But alas, this is what every church has done. The end result is total condemnation from Christ in the Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church.
Bob the blind said: Jesus became the Sabbath Rest, fulfilled that part of the 10 Commandments requiring rest, He gave rest, forgiveness of sins and became our Peace. Matthew 11:29; Luke 24:44: and Eph 2:14, 15.
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Those two verses are so simple about this subject, I come away shaking my head at the simplicity and you and the SDA church not being able to see what Jesus did and His purpose for coming to the earth was.
Tom replied: This recent idea that Jesus is our Sabbath Rest, is not supported by the Gospels. Jesus nowhere makes such a statement in connection with the Sabbath. NCT teaches false doctrine for those spiritually dumb enough to think it true. NCT is not a solution for anyone that is honest or educated. It is only for the spiritually blind and deaf, for those delusional, lazy, and trite.
Only a minority of Jews understood Jesus Gospel and embraced it. Sadly this is normative. Just as the vast majority rejected Jesus view of the Gospel and the Sabbath, so too at the end of time. Most that claim to follow God, will reject the Gospel and misunderstand the Sabbath, happily embracing false doctrine in the name of God.
Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Any that refuse to embrace the active and reformed Sabbath of Christ have fallen from grace. They don’t know Christ, and thus they are following a false, worthless Christ. They should have known. They could have known.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
In conclusion, the active and reformed Sabbath of Christ has defeated the nonsense of NCT. Here is the correct solution to the OC Sabbath error of the SDA’s. Here is the completion of “Sabbath Reform” that the SDA’s started in 1847. The NCS (New Covenant Sabbath) is the genuine and correct Sabbath doctrine for the 4th Angels Message. Let all rejoice and be glad.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for the New Covenant, 7th day Sabbath of Christ
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Bob the blind said: Tom, You just are not reading the texts supplied, here they are again: Matt 11:29; Luke 24:44. You just don't feel that Paul clarifies this issue with Col 2:16-17…
Tom replied: First, Paul is not the Lord of the Sabbath or the creator of the world and the original 7th day Sabbath doctrine. So he is in no position to challenge Christ over the Sabbath, nor has he done any such thing.
All that wish to follow the genuine Christ must understand and embrace what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, NOT whatever they think PAUL teaches. Paul cannot trump any theology and teaching of Christ, much less about the 4th Commandment and the Sabbath.
1Cor. 1:13 …Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized 2in the name of Paul?
Acts 4:10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene,
Acts 4:11 “He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone.
Acts 4:12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
Luke 6:5 And He was saying to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
While Paul has written only a few short sentences about the Sabbath, the Gospels contain scores and scores of Sabbath teaching, argument, and debate from Christ, the self-proclaimed Lord of the NC, 7th day, Sabbath doctrine.
So Bob, I think it is you that refuses to “read the texts,” not me. I just showed you that the entire 9th chapter of John, 41 verses, is all about the Jesus’ NC Sabbath doctrine, which continues another 21 verses in chapter 10. Here are 60 verses about the NC Sabbath, and there is much more in this same book. See John 5, which is another long, 50 verses, Sabbath debate, with Jesus claiming that Eternal life is only for those that accept his NC view of the Sabbath.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
There is also another long Sabbath debate in John 7, about 40 verses. There are over 100 verses in the book of John alone, where Jesus is teaching, defending, and promoting his new view of the Sabbath. But yet, NCT denies this Gospel data bases exists. They DENY that Christ has much of anything to say about the Sabbath, other then to abolish it. But the record proves them to be the world’s greatest liars. Shame on anyone being so incompetent and dishonest with the NT.
So Bob, we must be reading from different Bibles, because your claim that Jesus did not teach a NC doctrine of the Sabbath is fiction and myth. And so too this idea that Tom Norris is overlooking the few special texts you think you found to settle the long running Sabbath debate.
My Bible shows Jesus promoting his NC Sabbath from the very beginning of his ministry, and all the way along. Jesus’ Sabbath teachings, which are detailed and stunning, are featured in all four Gospels, and most prominently in John where there are over 100 verses.
A person would have to be “blind” to miss all this in just one Gospel book. And double blind to miss Jesus Sabbath teaching in the other three Gospels. For anyone to deny that Jesus teaches a 7th day doctrine of the Sabbath, is to deny Christ and the Gospel Story. Such a view is nothing more than anti-Gospel, anti-Christ, blasphemy.
There are scores of Gospel passages where Jesus promotes, debates, and defends his active and reformed, NC view of the 7th day Sabbath. This is not an “opinion,” but a clear, observable fact from the NT that cannot be credibly refuted.
Anyone that wants to understand what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, must seek Christ and learn from him in the Gospels. Those who refuse to be instructed by Christ, like you Bob, are blind on purpose, rejecting Jesus, as did the Jews. This is why you refuse to go to the correct passages where the Sabbath topic is under full discussion and debate by Christ. You don’t want to admit you were wrong and don’t want to believe what Jesus really teaches. Shame on you.
The passages you cite to explain and defend NCT are purposely manipulated and off point. Thus you have proven yourself so dishonest with the Word, that you will never be able to understand the Gospel with such a dishonest, unbelieving attitude. Those who are determined to embrace false doctrine will always find a way to be foolish. Mission accomplished.
Bob the blind said: Because Jesus argues about the Sabbath, it does not mean he argued for it to be part of His kingdom.
Tom replied: Jesus does more than argue about the Sabbath, he made it the centerpiece of his Gospel ministry. He also claims to be the Lord of the NC Sabbath, which he made for all mankind when the world was created. This means Jesus is taking authority over this creation-based doctrine, which he made long before there was an OC doctrine of the Sabbath. Jesus doctrine of the Sabbath is very different from Moses and the 4th Commandment. And also from what the confused SDA’s teach.
Matt. 4:23 Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.
Jesus Gospel features a very different view of the 7th day Sabbath from Moses. He teaches that his words on this doctrine, as well as others, are the basis for our fate in the Judgment Day. Do we understand and follow Christ, or have we followed a false and worthless Christ. How we view the Sabbath, determines the Christ we follow. Most have a false, mythical Jesus.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
If you want to understand the NC Sabbath, you must go to the passages in the Gospels where Christ teaches about, and debates, the Sabbath. It is not honest or sane to focus on a few diversionary passages that do not speak about the Sabbath, when there are so many long Sabbath passages from Christ to understand and embrace.
Good to see you admit that Jesus argues “about” the Sabbath; too bad you have failed to comprehend or embrace his NC arguments and theology. I expected you to say that Jesus “abolished” the Sabbath, because this is what you have previously claimed. For Christ to argue, debate, and DEFEND the Sabbath is the opposite of “abolishing” it.
Does Jesus teach that the 7th day Sabbath is abolished, or changed to Sunday or to EveryDay? Or does he teach a very different doctrine that stunned the Jews and sent them into a murderous rage? Those who refuse to study Jesus Sabbath teachings will never understand what they ignore and hate. Like the Jews, they have no intention of ever believing what they don’t want to believe.
So they close their eyes and pretend to be blind, denying the Gospel Sabbath. Just like the Jews who also refused to consider Jesus’ NC view of the Sabbath. NCT is for the blind and the faithless.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
Bob the blind said: 2 Cor 3 indicates the 10 Commandments were "transitory". I should follow your word over Jesus commissioned Apostle???
Tom replied: You sound confused about the NC Sabbath. No surprise here. Of course the OC was temporary, and so too the 10 C’s. Let all understand that Jesus does not, not, not, teach that the 4th Commandment is to be embraced or obeyed by his followers. Neither does Paul. This is why the Jews became so angry with Christ and then Paul.
While all SDA’s have been brainwashed into thinking that Christ teaches and upholds the 4th Commandment, and that the 10 C’s are the meaning of life, and that obedience to them determines salvation, especially the 4th Commandment--this is absolute nonsense, error, and great theological fraud.
Today, the SDA’s are blind to the Gospel and to the correct, NC Sabbath. Like the tithe paying, OC Sabbath keeping Jews they emulate, they are blind to the genuine Gospel Sabbath, preferring the OC teachings of Moses above the Gospel teachings of Christ.
Let me repeat: Jesus does not teach the OC Sabbath of Moses, where it is sinful to light fires, cook, travel, or do any type of work or activity.
Misunderstand this critical fact, fact, fact, of the Gospel Story, and the Gospel teachings of Christ will not be understood, much less about the Sabbath. Such people end up following a false, mythical, and worthless Christ. Christ considers them blind, naked, and wretched in the real PAJ, which is the LM.
Misunderstand the NC Sabbath, and you can be sure you have also misunderstood the Gospel and the genuine teachings of Christ that are necessary to obtain Eternal life.
The SDA’s were hot on the trail of Gospel truth, but like the Jews, they lost their way. While they were correct to teach that Sunday is wrong, they failed to fully comprehend the Protestant Gospel and the NC Sabbath of Christ, which is based on the Priesthood of All Believers. Even worse, they have embraced the OC Sabbath doctrine of Moses with both hands, and so too tithing and an OC, hierarchical model. For which they must zealously repent or continue to self-destruct in confusion, double-talk, and corruption.
The reformed and active, 7th day Sabbath of Christ, is the correct Sabbath doctrine for the Advent Movement and for all Laodicea. It is “Present Truth” for those today that are paying attention to the Gospel teachings of Christ and unfolding prophecy.
Is anyone listening?
Tom Norris for the New Covenant, 7th day Sabbath of Christ
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Bob, the blind, still does not “see” the teachings of Christ clearly or correctly. So he said: “Tom, you do not give any proof of your unique doctrine.”
Tom replied: First, I do not promote my own doctrine, unique or otherwise. Rather, this discussion about the Sabbath is focused on what Jesus teaches about the 7th day and what he does not. And yes, what Jesus teaches is very “unique,” even amazing.
Second, your claim that more “proof” is necessary in order for you to embrace the Gospel teachings of Christ is not only wrong, but also familiar. This is what the Jews said to Jesus. They demanded more proof from him, even though thousands had seen his stunning public miracles with their own eyes. But they still doubted and wanted more proof for this new theology, which they were never going to embrace. So no amount of proof would convince them.
During a major Sabbath debate, Christ called out these religious experts who demanded more proof. He called them “blind,” even as they said he was empowered by the devil. So the Gospel Story features debates between Christ and the Jews over the law and the Sabbath, as well over the issue of doctrinal evidence and proof.
Those today that demand more proof, in addition to what Christ teaches in the NT, are following the unbelieving Jews, not Christ. While the Jewish leaders refused to believe that Jesus Sabbath miracles were from God, many today refuse to believe that Jesus teaches a doctrine of the Sabbath for the church. Or if they do, they have embraced views that Jesus never teaches, like Sunday. Such unbelievers will never step foot in the New Earth.
Bob, too bad you are on the wrong side of the Gospel Story. Too bad you won’t accept the Gospel “proof” offered, because that is all you will ever get. If the written words of Christ are not sufficient for you to believe, then so be it. You are self-condemned. Most choose the wrong path and fail to believe the Gospel.
John 12:36 “While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.”
Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Here is how the debate over “proof” went:
1) Pharisees demand Proof from Christ before they would believe the Gospel. They were never satisfied with the evidence that Jesus presented.
Matt. 16:1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus, they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven.
Mark 8:11 The Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, to test Him.
Mark 8:12 Sighing deeply in His spirit, He *said, “Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, 3bno 2sign will be given to this generation.”
2) However, for those that were honest of heart, they had seen enough proof to believe. They accepted the evidence provided by Christ and rejoiced at the Gospel.
John 7:31 But many of the crowd believed in Him; and they were saying, “When the Christ comes, He will not perform more signs than those which this man has, will He?”
John 9:31 “We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.
John 9:32 “1Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind.
John 9:33 “If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.”
3) In private, the Jewish leaders admitted that Jesus was showing great “proofs” and signs for all to see. Even though they demanded more evidence in public, they knew there was plenty of proof. They were great hypocrites.
John 11:47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs.
4) The religious leaders refused to admit that Jesus, a Sabbath breaker, who taught that the 4th Commandment was no longer binding, was from God. His signs and proofs must be from the devil, not God.
John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”
John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”
John 12:37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.
5) Gospel preaching always causes division and doubt; only a minority believes. This is how it was in the 1st century and this is how it will be until the end of the world. Division over the teachings of Christ, especially about the Sabbath, is a hallmark of the Gospel Story.
John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.
All must base their hope of Eternal life on the teachings and sayings of Christ. This is all the “proof” anyone will ever have, and we must make the most of it, or perish. Misunderstand and reject the NC Sabbath of Christ, and only doom will result. This is what the Jews did, and also the Gentiles. This is what you are doing Bob.
The Gospel evidence in the NT is sufficient to establish the correct doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath for the church. Jesus words, sayings, and teachings will judge each of us in the last days, including what he teaches about the NC Sabbath.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Bob, you are as free as the Jews to disregard and close your eyes to the teachings of Christ. But I can assure you that it will not end well.
John 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
The Jews choose to be blind, and so too, most today. Which is why Christ has condemned the entire Laodicean Church.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
Bob, those today that reject the clear and plain teachings of Christ, as you are doing, are blind to the Gospel and to the NC Sabbath. Until you find a way to comprehend and embrace the teachings of Christ, you will remain blind, unsaved, and separated from God.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
Bob, the blind said: Jesus said it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath. The Jews and Jesus still had to comply with the Sabbath law until it was fulfilled by Jesus in His flesh on the cross.
Tom replied: Wrong. It was sinful to work on the Sabbath in the OC. Unless one was a Levite. While Jesus, not a Levite, was born under the OC law, his mission was to launch the NC. Consequently, there came a time when he had to stop following the OC and chart a NC path for the church. When Jesus started his Gospel Ministry, he featured a NC doctrine of the Sabbath, which is based on a different view of the Law, Temple, and Priesthood. To deny this is to deny the Gospel Story.
Bob 2 quoted: Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Bob said: Are you calling these passages uninspired? False doctrine??
Tom replied: I am calling you “uninspired” and full of nonsense and false doctrine. I am also calling you out for being very incompetent and dishonest with the Bible. You repeatedly avoid Jesus many discussions about the Sabbath in the Gospels so that you can run to Paul. This is madness, proving you are not really a genuine follower of Christ whatsoever. You are a fraud, like most everyone in Laodicea.
Bob the blind snarled: You are not commissioned as Paul was by Jesus himself. Jesus also sent the Holy Spirit, do you denigrate His teaching, note: John 16: 12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Tom replied: The primary source for the NC doctrine of the Sabbath is the four Gospels. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, were “commissioned” by Christ to write down the Gospel Story, especially the teachings and sayings of Christ. The active and reformed doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath is featured in all four Gospels by the apostles.
Anyone that wants to understand the Gospel, which includes the NC Sabbath of Christ, must go to Jesus, in the Gospels, and learn from him. Those who refuse to do this, like you Bob, are as doomed as were the Jews that also hated Jesus strange new views about the law and salvation.
Moreover, the HS does not invent new doctrine as you claim; much less refute what Christ teaches about the Gospel Sabbath. Rather, it points our minds to what Christ teaches. It directs us back to Christ in the Gospels.
John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Bob the blind, said: In Jesus own words he says there is more than just what He has said and the Holy Spirit will reveal Truth. Are you calling Jesus a Liar, Tom Norris??
Tom said: JESUS is truth. What he teaches in the Gospels is truth for the church, even what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. Those, like you Bob, that deny Jesus’ “own words” about the Sabbath, will not receive Eternal Life. They are not following the Good Shepherd or the Holy Spirit.
Bob the blind scoffed: You are puffed up and your words are null and void.
Tom replied: Don’t shoot the messenger. The words of Christ are not null or void. And neither is his active and reformed doctrine of the NC Sabbath. However, you are free to act like the unbelieving Jews and refute Christ and his Gospel Sabbath. But for what point? There is no Eternal Life for anyone that ignores and repudiates the teaching of Christ.
If you want to read a serious book about the Sabbath, here is one:
A Day of Gladness: The Sabbath Among Jews and Christians in Antiquity
A study of the wide spectrum of theological views on the Sabbath in the Jewish and Christian faiths of antiquity; In A Day of Gladness, Herold Weiss compares the ways in which Christians and Jews of antiquity viewed the Sabbath. Rather than attending to the minutiae of its observance among Jews or its connection with Sunday observance among Christians, he examines major extant texts for the fundamental religious concerns of their authors and communities, particularly how those concerns shaped their thoughts about the Sabbath.
Weiss contends that the wide spectrums of theological beliefs illustrate the internal diversities of these two faiths as well as their commonalities. To explore Jewish perspectives, Weiss looks to the Rabbinic and Qumranic texts, Samaritan texts, and the writings of Philo and of Josephus.
To illumine early Christian attitudes, he offers analyses of the Synoptic Gospels, the Gospels of John and Thomas, and the letters to the Galatians, the Romans, the Hebrews, and the Colossians.
Weiss uses each text as a window upon the sociological constructs and theological perspectives figuring in early Jewish and Christian thought about worship and rest. He suggests that such perspectives reflect larger theological postures because, as an element of the creation story, the Sabbath became an important cosmological fixed point and a source of eschatological speculation.
With insights gained from his examination of the texts, Weiss identifies the concerns animating Sabbath disputes. He marks out in the beliefs of Jews and early Christians overarching similarities between the two faiths as well as variations within each.
http://www.amazon.com/Day-Gladness-Sabb … 1570034680
This much-needed work is focused on Jesus Sabbath teaching. The author correctly concludes that Jesus “does not argue for the total abrogation of the Sabbath law.” But he does “challenge” the 4th Commandment, all the while being careful not to “contest the validity of the Sabbath.” P 97.
This author is not SDA (however, he does live in Berrien Springs, Michigan) or a NCT supporter, and in fact, he disproves both of these views of the Sabbath. This excellent work supports and underscores the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. It is a fantastic study that deals with the real issues, including the Sabbath debates.
Everyone needs to read this book and ground themselves on the facts about 1st century Sabbath keeping when there was no debate about Sunday to confuse the issues. This book should have been written many years ago.
Bob the blind said: I will take Jesus and the Holy Spirit over you any day.
Tom replied: This discussion is not a debate between Jesus teachings and what Tom Norris is teaching. There is no such choice as you pretend.
We are having a discussion about what Jesus, the head theologian of the church, teaches in the Gospels about the 7th day Sabbath. It is a debate about religious people thinking they can see true doctrine, when in fact; they are blind to Gospel truth.
To misunderstand what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath, is to misunderstand the Gospel. The entire Laodicean church has a false view of both the Gospel and the Sabbath, including the SDA’s and NCT. This must be corrected. The book above is a good start on the road to truth.
Bob the blind retorted: You have supplied nothing to support your working Sabbath you call Reformed Adventism.
Tom replied: For the record; Reformed Adventism encompasses far more than just the Sabbath doctrine. There is a 12-point list of major changes that covers everything from Ellen White to Eschatology.
See: Adventist Reform
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=234
If Jesus could not convince the Pharisees to embrace his NC view of the Sabbath, what chance does anyone have today? When religious people want to pretend they are blind, not even Christ can heal them against their will. Those that pretend not to understand the issues, soon lose their spiritual eyesight. Then they can never understand.
Luke 11:34 “The eye is the lamp of your body; when your eye is clear, your whole body also is full of light; but when it is bad, your body also is full of darkness.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Anyone that wants to follow Christ, must stop following others and admit their Gospel blindness, asking to be healed. Failure to understand this point is fatal because we are all born blind.
Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
Only Jesus can heal the theologically confused and blind, but most of those who think they understand the Bible, do not. Especially if they are paid church workers. Most are like the Pharisees that thought they were smarter than Christ, and thus they refused to comprehend Jesus’ new view about the Sabbath or the Priesthood. They are delusional and lost.
So Bob, as you read this next passage, picture yourself “sitting by the road,” with another blind man, waiting for Jesus to pass by. What will you do? Will you shout out for healing? Or will you act like the Pharisees and deny that you are blind?
Had these men denied they were blind, they would have remained blind, and Jesus would have moved on without helping them. The SDA Community needs to stop pretending they can “see” the Gospel, because they are not even close at this point, and neither is NCT. They are truly blind, even as they have fallen into the ditch for all to see. Here they will die, unless they repent and seek healing.
Bob, why not admit the obvious and admit you are wrong about doctrine, which is what the word “blind” means in this Gospel context? Then you can be healed, rejoicing in the clarity and joy of the genuine Gospel, which also includes the correct view of the 7th day Sabbath.
Matt. 20:29 As they were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed Him.
Matt. 20:30 And two blind men sitting by the road, hearing that Jesus was passing by, cried out, “Lord, have mercy on us, Son of David!”
Matt. 20:31 The crowd sternly told them to be quiet, but they cried out all the more, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!”
Matt. 20:32 And Jesus stopped and called them, and said, “What do you want Me to do for you?”
Matt. 20:33 They said to Him, “Lord, we want our eyes to be opened.”
Matt. 20:34 Moved with compassion, Jesus touched their eyes; and immediately they regained their sight and followed Him.
Those that deny Christ, and refute his teachings, refusing to be instructed by him, cannot be healed of their false views. They are blind to the Gospel by choice, unable to see truth because they refuse to see or hear truth.
Rom. 11:8 just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
Matt. 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
Bob the blind said: What a joke you are, and embarrassing yourself to those that listen to you at AllExpert.com. You lie to those that believe you speak the truth.
Tom replied: NCT is a bad joke. It features many embarrassing errors about the doctrine of the Sabbath. It is obvious that you have not been able to defend this nonsense, much less discredit the genuine, NC Sabbath doctrine of Christ that is a much-needed part of Adventist Reform. Sad.
Conclusion
Today, the church is full of error and schism. False doctrine abounds, even as the world races forward to its apocalyptic conclusion. The time has come for the Advent Movement to wake up, repent, and move forward to the 4th Angels Message where all doctrine must comport to the genuine Gospel, including the correct doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.
It is time.
John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform
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You sound like a Jew, Tom. At least you accept the Gospels, but to denigrate the rest of the New Testament except Revelation shows how low on the discernment meter you are. Paul was commissioned by Christ and for 3 years given direct instruction what his message was to be to the Gentiles when Paul went into the Arabian Desert for three years. The Luke 24:44 quote is not Paul, neither the Matthew 11:29. You have to accept the splitting of the OT into civil, ceremonial and moral to get your answer. Even the Jews see the OT as a whole, not segmented as you do. Also, read this:
John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
These are Jesus words. Do you call Him a liar about the Holy Spirit and Paul. This is again, dangerous territory you have wandered into.
Last edited by bob_2 (06-30-14 3:38 am)
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Bob the blind, is still unable to see: Unable to make any credible points to support his false views, he lashes out in an anti-Semitic manner that makes little sense.
Bob the blind said: You sound like a Jew, Tom. At least you accept the Gospels, but to denigrate the rest of the New Testament except Revelation shows how low on the discernment meter you are.
Tom replied: How can anyone that accepts the teachings of Christ be seen as a Jew? Most all Jews rejected what Jesus taught, including and especially his strange new view of the 7th DAY Sabbath. You are the one who is acting like the unbelieving and “blind” Jews by rejecting Jesus’ active and reformed, NC Sabbath. The Jews hated Jesus NC Sabbath, and so too do you. So who is acting like the Jews here?
Bob is trying to pretend that Paul is superior to Christ when it comes to understanding the Sabbath. So he ignores the many passages where Jesus teaches his Gospel Sabbath, and runs to find another view he likes better from Paul. Thus he misunderstands both Christ and Paul.
Bob the blind continued to try and pretend that he can see. He said: Paul was commissioned by Christ and for 3 years; given direct instruction what his message was to be to the Gentiles when Paul went into the Arabian Desert for three years.
Tom replied: Before Paul became a Christian, Jesus spent 3 years training and “commissioning” many people (at least 70), to represent him, including the apostles, that wrote the four Gospels. What they wrote about Christ is Gospel truth for the church.
Paul supports the original Gospel Story of the apostles, and he never said otherwise. However, he is not the source to understand the Gospel Sabbath. Such a doctrine comes directly from Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath and the creator of the world and the very first Sabbath. Those that follow Jesus will understand and embrace what he teaches, not repudiate it.
Luke 10:1 Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.
Matt, Mark, Luke, and John represent Gospel truth. These books are not at war with Paul, as you pretend. They contain the genuine teachings of Christ for the church, including the doctrine of the NC Sabbath, which was a favorite teaching of Jesus, the self-proclaimed Lord of the NC Sabbath.
Bob the blind said: The Luke 24:44 quote is not Paul, neither the Matthew 11:29.
Tom replied: The source of the Gospel Sabbath is Jesus, not Paul. So you are correct to try and quote Christ, but wrong to quote the wrong material from Christ, which you have done on purpose.
Christ is the source for all Gospel doctrine, including and especially the NC Sabbath. Misunderstand Christ, and Paul will also be misunderstood. Mission accomplished for you.
Pay attention: Those that quote the wrong passages from Christ and deliberately overlook his many Sabbath “sayings” and teachings, pretending they don’t exist, are blind to the Gospel. They are rejecting Christ just like the Jews.
Bob, why can’t you “see” the Gospel Sabbath as taught by Jesus in the Gospels? Why couldn’t the Jews?
Answer: Because you, like the Jews, are blind by choice, and you refuse to admit it, much less ask to be healed. Pity.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
These two passages you quote do not support NCT as you claim, or this idea that Christ fulfilled the Sabbath so that he could abolish it and then change it into an EveryDay spiritual doctrine for the last church. Such teaching is absurd and trite blasphemy. It is not wise to follow the teachings of the blind.
Bob the blind charged; Tom, You have to accept the splitting of the OT into civil, ceremonial and moral to get your answer. Even the Jews see the OT as a whole, not segmented as you do.
Tom replied: Your double-talk is tiresome and pointless. Jesus teaches what he teaches in the Gospels for all to “see.” What a pity that so few will come to understand the genuine Gospel, which includes what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. While the Gospel is the greatest of all doctrines, the point of the church and the only hope for mankind, - only a few will comprehend it. Most remain blind.
Matt. 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Bob the blind quoted: John 16:12 in a futile and tiresome attempt to defend his false views. “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Bob then said: These are Jesus words. Do you call Him a liar about the Holy Spirit and Paul? This is again, dangerous territory you have wandered into.
Tom replied: You are the liar, not Jesus or the Gospel writers. It is Gnosticism to claim that new doctrines were to be taught to mankind after the apostles. Don’t you understand the history of the early church? This is very dangerous territory that few survive. Only the written words of Christ and his apostles can define Gospel doctrine.
http://www.theopedia.com/Gnosticism
http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic1.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic2.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic3.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic4.htm
The Cannon has long been closed, which is why it is impossible for new doctrines, like the IJ, to be developed and taught as truth. The SDA’s have lost their minds and ruined their legitimate eschatological mission with such impossible error. Jesus did not teach the IJ, and thus it can never, ever, become true doctrine. The same can be said about NCT. Their view of the Sabbath is not based on the Gospels, and this fact alone makes it heretical and false.
Tom Norris » IJ Discussion: Tom Norris & Herb Kersten
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1173
In fact, after the original Gospels were written, many false Gospels were also written, all claiming to contain new and secret Gospel knowledge that went beyond the famous originals. These different and unauthorized views were correctly repudiated by the church, which countered by gathering all the original Gospels and apostolic letters into what we call the New Testament. This was done to stop any false speculation about the Gospel. All true Gospel doctrine must be based on the NT, which is complete. Nothing else.
Col. 1:25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
It is far too late in the day to repeat such Gnostic errors. There are no secret or special Gospel doctrines for mankind beyond what has already been written in the 1st century. Not about the Sabbath or the IJ, which is a farce. The Gospel was “fully” preached long ago, and it is fatal to think any new Gospel doctrines exist outside the written Word.
Those, like the SDA’s or NCT crowd, that quote Jesus out of context, twisting his words to support their many false views, are only fooling themselves, not heaven. Those that claim the NT does not contain a fully articulated Gospel, which includes a clear doctrine of the Sabbath, claiming that additional sources are needed to understand Gospel truth, have fallen from grace. They mishandle and misunderstand the word at their own peril. They are blind to the real Gospel, just like the Jews or the Papacy.
Bible Doctrine Clear
One of the major debates of the Reformation was about the clarity or lack thereof, of the Bible. The RCC taught that the scriptures were very difficult to comprehend, which is why the church was necessary to explain doctrine. Luther disagreed. He correctly taught that all doctrine necessary for salvation is clear and understandable.
While Luther chastised Erasmus for impiety, equivocation and parroting the skepticism of the sophists, the greater threat from Erasmus was his assertion that Scripture's obscurity bolstered the authority of the papacy. Luther believed that in the papal kingdom "nothing is more commonly stated or more generally accepted than the idea that the Scriptures are obscure and ambiguous, so that the spirit to interpret them must be sought from the Apostolic See of Rome." He suggested that the entire design of Erasmus' diatribe was bent on demonstrating that the Scriptures were not "crystal clear" in order to frighten people away from reading Scripture and into reliance upon Rome.
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/artic … cuity.html
The Gospel is what Christ teaches it is in the Gospels, and so too the Gospel Sabbath. Those that want Eternal Life, must understand and embrace what Jesus, the Good Shepherd, teaches in the Gospels.
2Cor. 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves!
One way to test if we are following the genuine Christ of the Gospels, is to see what doctrine of the Sabbath we hold. Does it match with the scores and scores of Gospel verses where Jesus promotes and defends his NC view of the 7th day Sabbath? If not, then you can be sure you are following a false Christ and a worthless Gospel.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
Jesus teaches, in the true Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church, that the entire Laodicean Church, meaning all denominations, are wrong about the Gospel. They are blind to the genuine Christ, even oblivious to the correct doctrine of the Sabbath.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
Today, legions in the church, starting with the leaders, are blind, naked, and unsaved; their only hope is to repent and embrace the genuine Christ, with his active and reformed, Gospel Sabbath. To do otherwise is spiritual suicide.
Matt. 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
It is time for those in the Adventist Community to wake up and open their eyes. It is time for this group to repent of their many false doctrines and see the Gospel clearly and correctly.
Come on Bob; get on the right side of the Gospel. NCT is as stupid and false as the Old Covenant SDA Sabbath or the IJ. They are both false and impossible doctrines.
The time has come for the Advent Movement to repent and migrate forward to the 4th Angels Message so that they can proclaim the correct Gospel with power and wisdom. It is time for New Covenant Adventism.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform
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