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Tom said:
Tom said: Bob, you are not being responsive to the points raised. Denial of the issues is not going to work. How can you possibly embrace any theology that claims Jesus did not teach a doctrine of the Sabbath in the Gospels? One, which greatly offended the Jews, who called for his death.
The Sabbath is in no way a Salvific Issue. For you to say any of the 10 Commandments are Salvific goes against the Bible. Jesus Blood is the only thing that saves. Obedience is important, but for you to claim Jesus under the OT/OC Law said that the NT/NC , New Kingdom requires a Sabbath Doctrine, you can not produce the text, only your Presupposition. Jesus declared war on the Pharisees on many fronts, their burdensome Sabbath Doctrine was one of them. His declaration that He was Lord of the Sabbath, meant he had the authority for it to stay in force or to be fulfilled by Him in His Flesh as the NT/NC states. For you to belittle the Apostles and Prophets of the NT/NC shows how far off the mark you are. They had the Holy Spirit directing them and Jesus stated how important that was going to be. The issue of rest and peace, the ultimate goal of the Christian is addressed so clearly, even Tom Norris has to blind himself not to see it.
Matthew 11: 25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Tom, the Sabbath was given because the Jews had been overworked, its objective was REST. Jesus says he can give this, fulfill this need in Himself. As Lord of the Sabbath, He was also Lord of REST.
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Heb 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[e] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
Tom, when Jesus was talking about the Sabbath, He talked of the soul's need for rest which he could provide. If the disciples, and Apostles did not see this, Col 2: 16, 17 pointed out the reality is in Jesus. And why was this said about the law to the Gentiles:
Acts 15:28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
Sabbath was their meeting time as Acts 15, so the Jews said nothing of the Sabbath being broken. But this was not the only meeting time that they had as demonstrated in Acts.
John 20:19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you
Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-05-13 1:24 pm)
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Tom, because he aggravated the Jewish leaders about the Sabbath and Jesus reclaiming it to the purpose for which it was given in the OT/OC is not to say He declared the Sabbath to be a New Covenant permanent doctrine. He had to keep the Law (10 Commandments) perfectly to be our Savior. As the Advocate and Savior of the NT/NC you can not point to a NT/NC doctrine that shows this. The New Covenant started no earlier than John the Baptist and no latter than Pentecost. There was a phase-- in of His Kingdom. Not all knowledge was collated in the minds of the Apostles, Jesus may have given a complete Gospel message but not complete doctrine that the NC would abide by. He would send the Holy Spirit to guide men He personally selected to give the rest of what He would reveal. Acts 15 shows what they were requiring the Gentiles and it was not the 10 Commandments as OT/OC.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-06-13 2:55 am)
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Bob, your position is hopeless. NCT is based on fiction and error. It cannot stand. Sorry.
Don’t take it too personally; you are not the author of NCT. Let Zaspel and those other guys deal with their own errors. Why are you trying to defend them? To get back at the SDA’s?
Revenge is not conducive to searching for Gospel truth.
Let the authors come online and try to defend their own mess, if they dare.
The SDA’s play these same games. When I reviewed Goldstein’s book about 1844, he was such a coward that he refused to come online and enter the discussion -- about his own book. Those who promote false doctrines are often not up to a real time challenge of their views because what they are teaching is easily exposed as error and nonsense. So they hide from the hard questions and run from those who have the answers.
You should not be fooled into defending NCT, because you have no chance of succeeding any more than the IJ screamers who refused to admit they are wrong. While the NCT crowd claims to be great Sabbath experts, they are just pretending. They are full of hot air and many false assumptions.
To prove this fact, just let the NCT authors come online and answer Tom Norris questions directly. You are not doing very well.
But guess what? They will end up running away just like Clifford Goldstein or Herb Kerstern because what they are promoting is Gospel Garbage, just like the SDA’s with their many errors.
Bob, I understand how those running from the legalism of the SDA’s, with their OC Sabbath, can fall prey to this subtle doctrine. NCT sounded good to the confused SDA sheep who knew they had a problem with their own view of the Sabbath. But after further analysis, NCT has turned out to be a false path designed by wolves to lead the sheep far away from their Shepherd.
It almost seems as if NCT, which was invented in the 1970’s, was designed to take advantage of the confusion that was taking place within Takoma Park Adventism at that time.
If there was such a plan, it worked, because many former SDA’s used NCT as a doctrinal excuse to leave Adventism. Those leaving for another church had to embrace some type of Sabbath doctrine, and Sunday made little sense. So NCT gave them the cover they needed.
NCT worked for many SDA’s because it bashed Sunday as well the 7th day Sabbath of the SDA’s, claiming that all days were now the spiritual Sabbath. Here was a seemingly workable solution for many SDA’s that were correctly running away from Adventist legalism.
Of course, now everyone is finding out that NCT is not a real solution, much less the correct Sabbath doctrine for the church. All can see that NCT is still Sunday based, as this is the day when the NCT meets.
So NCT has turned out to be a hypocritical “bait and switch” doctrine. One that ended up being Sunday based all along. One that is full of error and many fatal false assumptions.
Time for the Adventist Community to grow up and repent.
Time for all to understand the correct doctrine of the 7th day Gospel Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: Don, Jesus definitely spoke the Gospel, but the NC rules were not completely spoke, or Acts 15, the Jerusalem meeting would not have been necessary.
Tom said: Wrong. Jesus preached and taught the full Gospel when on earth. To deny this is to deny Christ. The record of what he said, and the details of what he taught are found in the four Gospels. This would also include what he taught about the 7th day Sabbath.
Jesus Gospel was fully preached and recorded in the four Gospels. Nothing in the book of Acts can change or remove what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath or anything else. No post ascension meeting of the church has any authority to change, ignore, or repudiate what Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, has declared as truth.
The very fact that you think you need to ignore and marginalize the words of Christ, looking for others to explain the Sabbath, - condemns you.
If you want to “see” the Sabbath correctly, from a NC point of view, then go to Christ in the Gospels and learn from him.
Do not be ashamed of what he teaches, but embrace it for Eternal Life. Whatever he teaches, about all things, not just the Sabbath, is what all must embrace. It could not be more simple.
Do not run to the book of Acts, or to Hebrews, or to Paul. Go directly to Christ in the Gospels, and learn what he teaches about the Sabbath. Those who fail to find the genuine Christ will be lost.
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Bob 2 said: During that meeting they did not say the Gentiles would be required to keep the Sabbath.
Tom replied: First off, you are thinking of the OC Sabbath. The OC Sabbath is obsolete in the Church. So this is why they did not say the Gentiles must “keep the Sabbath.”
This is why they refrained from acting like the SDA’s and telling people they must obey the 4th Commandment and keep it holy by not working. The apostolic church correctly rejected such OC theology.
Why did they not do that? Because they knew Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, had given all that followed him an EXEMPTION from the rules of the Sabbath law. They could all work on the NC Sabbath, even though it was still a day to praise God and fellowship.
The apostolic Church understood the NC, working Sabbath of Christ. You don’t. And neither do the SDA’s, or any other denomination at this point. But truth is truth, and the Gospel record is what it is.
Note that this early church meeting did not remove the Sabbath, as you claim. You are just seeing what you want to see.
Rather, they removed “circumcision.” That was what the debate was all about. Not the Sabbath. While the Sabbath is mentioned in v 21, it is not in the context of being removed or even discussed as a doctrine. Stop being so dishonest.
Acts 15:19 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
Acts 15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
Acts 15:21 “For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since 1he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
Bob 2 said: The Sabbath, if one was part of the New Covenant, was not stated fully by Jesus.
Tom replied: Wrong. Outrageous. Heretical. Blasphemy.
How can anyone say such a thing? There is no Eternal Life for anyone that denies what Jesus teaches over and over in the Gospels.
Do you think Christ was the Lord of the abolished Sabbath? If this is what you think, it makes no sense, nor is it true. Christ took authority over an ancient doctrine that he was careful to explain, reform, and promote. Deny this at your own risk.
Many are fooling themselves into thinking they are Christian, when they are not. Many repudiate what Christ teaches, even as they try to lead others away from the Gospel words of Christ. Shameful. Christians cannot act this way. NCT is against the Gospel.
Furthermore, there is no “if” about it. Jesus not only teaches a unique, 7th day Sabbath doctrine for all mankind, he also calls himself the Lord of the Sabbath and claims that God told him to teach this new doctrine to the Jews. To deny this is to deny Christ and the Gospel Story. Many do. Sad.
There is much information from Christ about the Sabbath in the NT, yet this blind crowd claims it is not enough to understand the Sabbath. They loudly teach that Jesus only teaches 9 of the 10 commandments, omitting the Sabbath.
Then they run away from Christ to find a few words by Paul, which they misinterpret to fit their false doctrine.
While Paul’s few words about the Sabbath represent only a small fraction of the amount that Christ speaks in the Gospels, so what. NCT’s true mission is to declare there is no Sabbath for the church. So they will play whatever games necessary to make that false point seem valid.
Wow! This theory that Jesus did not teach a doctrine of the Sabbath is so dishonest and obviously wrong that it boggles the mind. This great error is foundational to NCT. It is fatal.
Only a blind person could read the Gospels and conclude that Jesus did not teach any doctrine concerning the 4th Commandment. Such a conclusion is ludicrous and absurd; but yet, this is the basis for NCT. This is the point upon which their theology is based.
Anyone who believes this NCT fiction about Jesus failing to articulate a doctrine of the Sabbath has lost his or her ability to reason and understand reality. Such a position is out of bounds. Not worthy of serious consideration.
This brand of theology is better called CCT for Confused Covenant Theology, because that is all it is. Or, DCT, for Dishonest Covenant Theology. Or, FCT, for False Covenant Theology. There are many more names that could be added to describe this garbage, but you get the point.
The point here is to understand that NCT does not deserve to be given credibility. It is modern day Gnosticism. While it makes some good points, like the fact that the popular Sunday Lord’s Day is false, it’s conclusion is way off the mark.
Like the Gnostics, NCT relies on outside sources, NOT the four Gospels, and thus it makes doctrine based on the views of others, not Christ.
Moreover, NCT claims that additional Gospel knowledge has been given to others after Christ. This is exactly what the Gnostics taught.
This hermeneutical view motivated their critics to gather the genuine words and teachings of Christ and assemble what we now have today as the NT. Thus the Gospels especially, defeated the Gnostics and they will do the same thing to NCT, which is nothing more than modern, recycled, Gnosticism.
The Gnostics, which were very popular in the 2nd century, were defeated because their teachings were refuted by the genuine words of Christ in the Gospels, written in the 1st century. NCT will also go down in flames for the same reason. What they teach is against what is contained in the Gospels. Including this Gnostic error that claims Jesus would give additional doctrines to others downstream.
This great error, which was foundational to the Gnostics, is also the problem with NCT and with the SDA’s and most all cults. Those who claim that Jesus’ Gospel teachings are not enough, and must be augmented with additional doctrines by others, have fallen from grace. They are lost in a cultic fog.
Jesus teaches a full and complete Gospel in the four Gospels. There are no secret Gospel doctrines given to man after Christ. Not about the Judgment, as the SDA’s claim, or about the Sabbath, as the NCT crowd teaches.
Let all understand that NCT, their own self-important term, is anti-Christ, Gnostic garbage. Such views are cultic, not Protestant.
Bob 2 said: Jesus reacted to the Pharisees pollution of the Sabbath do’s and do not’s, but Jesus never commanded a NC Sabbath.
Tom said: Jesus came to earth to preach the Gospel and inaugurate the NC. Not to correct the Pharisees or get into debates with the Jews. Jesus was an Apostle from God. He came to preach the Gospel and save those who would believe in him.
The entire world, including the Pharisees, was condemned before Christ arrived on earth. Christ knew that. His mission was to save the world through the Gospel, not condemn the Jews or anyone.
John 3:17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
As Jesus promoted the Gospel, the Pharisees pushed back, and thus Jesus is reacting to their push back against the NC. He is not trying to help the Pharisee correct OC Judaism. No. He was here to promote the Gospel and establish the Church, a very different paradigm from what had previously existed.
Jesus’ Gospel theology includes what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath, just as it also includes many other points. Neither the large points nor the small can be omitted from the Gospel Story.
Just think, if a minor point about a woman became part of the Gospel Story, so too the repeated declarations by Christ about the 7th day Sabbath.
Matt. 26:13 “Truly I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be spoken of in memory of her.”
To deny the Gospel Story, and omit what we don’t like or understand, is fatal. To deny what is written in the Gospels. About anything large or small, is to deny Christ.
Bob 2 said: No where in the NT do you have Jesus commanding a Sabbath, except not doing away with it under the OC, that he lived under.
Tom said: While you will never find Jesus teaching an OC version of the Sabbath, he did teach a very different and Reformed, NC Sabbath doctrine. This cannot be denied, but yet, this is what you are still trying to do. Shame on you.
You would know this if you took the time to read the words of Jesus in the Gospels instead of reading the fiction promoted by NCT. Jesus has a lot to say about the Sabbath. So much so, that the Jews reacted violently to his Reformed Sabbath, which they hated.
I see that you hate it as well, and so too the NCT crowd. So be it. Many today act like the faithless Jews.
Bob 2 said: Because he called himself Lord of the Sabbath, or (said) the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, this last utterance, certainly in context, was not talking to the Gentiles, but to the Jewish "man".
Tom said: Wrong. Both Jesus and the Apostles know the difference between Jews and Gentiles. The words for these different groups are not similar or subject to confusion during translation. Consequently when Jesus teaches that the Sabbath was made for mankind, the word he used means humanity. It does not mean Jew.
Neither the context nor the original language in the text means Jew. It means what it says. The Sabbath that Christ teaches in the NT is for all mankind, just like the Gospel.
So stop playing games with the words of Christ. Stop interpreting the Gospels in such a way as to justify and defend NCT. It is not worth such bad behavior.
Unless you, and many others, (like the SDA’s), can become honest with the Word, you will never be able understand the genuine Gospel. The Jews refused to consider the words of Jesus. Their minds were predisposed and made up to disbelieve. So too, many today.
Bob, you are not being responsive to the points raised. Denial of the issues is not going to work. How can you possibly embrace any theology that claims Jesus did not teach a doctrine of the Sabbath in the Gospels? One, which greatly offended the Jews, who called for his death. Sad.
Bob 2 responded: The Sabbath is in no way a Salvific Issue.
Tom said: The Sabbath is a Gospel issue. And that makes it an important doctrine for our salvation. While your mind has been subject to many years of OC, legalistic Sabbath keeping by the SDA’s, do not let that bad experience ruin the genuine, 7th day doctrine as taught by Christ.
Salvation is only by faith in Christ, not by our works or obedience to the law. But how do we know if we have saving faith?
How do we know if we are following the genuine Christ of the NT as opposed to the many frauds that abound?
Jesus addresses this question in the Gospels. He teaches that those who follow him will also embrace what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath, as if he were our Shepherd and we the sheep. Thus, the famous metaphor of Jesus being the Good Shepherd is primarily about accepting his Reformed Sabbath, which so infuriated the Jews.
Let’s take a look at some of the specific teachings of Jesus as they relate to his Reformed Sabbath and our salvation.
See John 9, which is a long chapter about Jesus and the Sabbath. (One of many in John).
John 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.
As often happened, the Jews were in an uproar because Jesus was doing spectacular miracles on the Sabbath to prove a point. Consequently they excommunicated the healed man, who wanted to become a disciple of Jesus.
As Jesus reveals himself as the Messiah, he invites the now sighted man to believe in him for salvation. The man gives “worship” to Christ on the 7th day Sabbath.
John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.
Here is what is acceptable on the NC Sabbath, doing good works and “worshipping Christ.” Here is one of the first NC Sabbath followers of Christ.
Of course the Pharisees are angry with Christ for breaking the 4th Commandment, and for claiming to be the Messiah.
Jesus replies by telling them that not only are they spiritually blind, they like to be in the dark, and thus he cannot heal or save them because they have such a bad attitude.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Jesus knew that this religious group would not believe under any circumstances, and thus he goes on to explain how salvation works in relation to his Reformed Sabbath doctrine.
Jesus teaches that Salvation is only for those that follow Christ and what he teaches, including and especially what he teaches about his NC Sabbath doctrine, which is the context of his remarks.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
Few know that the context and background of the Good Shepherd motif is a debate between the OC Sabbath of the Jews and the NC Sabbath of Christ. Such a fact pattern underscores the importance of the Sabbath doctrine, and shows that it has not been understood in the proper context.
John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
Anyone that wants to follow Christ today, had better make sure they are not following a fraud. One way to test the matter is to see what doctrine of the Sabbath is being taught.
NCT teaches a false view of the Sabbath and thus they are following another Shepherd, not the “Good Shepherd” of the NT.
So too the SDA’s, they have the same OC Sabbath as the Pharisees, which is very wrong. They are following Moses, but yet they think they are following Christ. Sad.
Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath caused great division and debate, and it will do so again whenever the genuine Gospel and the NC Sabbath are preached.
John 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.
John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”
John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”
The Gospels contain the NC teachings of Jesus. His Gospel words are salvific, - if we believe them. If we don’t, - they are worthless to us, and there is no salvation. Any who reject Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath, have rejected Christ. They cannot be saved.
Bob 2 said: For you to say any of the 10 Commandments are Salvific goes against the Bible. Jesus Blood is the only thing that saves.
Tom said: I NEVER said such a thing? Why would you promote such a false position from me? You need to be more honest if we are going to have a profitable discussion. It is not helpful to misrepresent what anyone is saying.
Jesus Gospel words are salvific. We are saved by Christ’s blood, ONLY if we embrace what he teaches and believe him.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
Eternal Life is for those who “hear” the words of Christ and believe them. It is not for those who run from the words of Christ, or for those who repudiate what Jesus teaches.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Hearing the words of Christ INCLUDES what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. Those who refuse to hear, believe, or obey have forfeited Eternal Life. It’s very simple. (This includes the SDA’s, who have embraced a false view of the Sabbath, the Judgment, and Christ, as well as many other things).
John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
To “believe” in Christ is to understand and embrace what he teaches about God, Man, Law, Sin, and Salvation. It also includes what he teaches about money and the judgment as well as the 7th day Sabbath. To believe in Christ is to believe in a whole range of doctrines that he teaches, the Sabbath being only one of many.
Eternal life is only for those who understand the know Christ. It is not for those who misunderstand, ignore, or reject what he teaches. The Sabbath is a great testing doctrine for the last church to see who understands the genuine Christ of history, or who is a pretender.
John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
Jesus, and what he really teaches, is what matters most for the Christian. The words of Christ, including what he teaches about the 7th day Reformed Sabbath, represent Eternal Life for those who believe them.
Jesus words have the highest authority in the Bible, trumping what all others have to say or write. Ignore them at your own peril.
John 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
1John 5:11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Those who follow the genuine Christ, will also follow the “true” Sabbath doctrine that he teaches. Those who don’t, do not “know” Christ as they claim. They have been duped into following a fraud.
This means the Christ of NCT, as well as that of the SDA’s, are different frauds. They are both false and worthless; a ruse to lead the sheep away from the true Shepherd, who teaches a very controversial view of religion, of which the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath is a part.
Bob 2 said: Obedience is important, but for you to claim Jesus under the OT/OC Law said that the NT/NC, New Kingdom requires a Sabbath Doctrine, you can not produce the text, only your Presupposition.
Tom said: The fact that you are a wounded, former SDA, who now hates the very mention of the term Sabbath, is beside the point.
The SDA’s many errors in no way invalidates the 7th day Lord’s day for the church, which the church has embraced in one form or another since the beginning of the apostolic church, even until the present time.
NCT is very wrong to declare that the church should not have a weekly day to meet. This is exactly what Christ teaches in the Gospels, which is why the church has tried to follow this point from the beginning.
It is clear to all but the blind, that Jesus teaches a weekly Sabbath for the church. This is why he proclaimed himself to be the Lord and protector of the Sabbath doctrine, which he created at the same time he created the world.
While NCT claim’s there are no passages in the NT that teach a Sabbath for the church, such a position is obviously ludicrous and out of bounds. There is no point in denying Jesus many words about the 7th day. Those who do, are only proving that they are blind; they do not believe in Christ.
NCT is anti-Christ.
Bob 2 said: Jesus declared war on the Pharisees on many fronts; their burdensome Sabbath Doctrine was one of them.
Tom said: Jesus did not come to earth to make war on the Jews or their leaders. Where do you come up with this fiction?
Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
Jesus declared war on Satan, not mankind. The Jews were the primary allies of Heaven. Jesus and the religious leaders should have been of the same mind, but they were not.
Matt. 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
Luke 13:34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!
Jesus came to save those that were lost, which included the Pharisees. But they would not believe in Christ or his strange, lawbreaking, view of the Gospel Sabbath. So they sent him to the cross.
How strange that the very doctrine that sent Christ to the cross, the Sabbath, is so misunderstood? Jesus death on the cross cannot be fully or properly understood unless his Sabbath doctrine is correctly comprehended.
Misunderstand what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, and you will misunderstand the Gospel. The SDA’s were on the right track, but then they fell into legalism. They failed to find the correct 7th day Gospel Sabbath, which is the completion of Sabbath Reform. Now it is time to make this final correction and resolve this issue once and for all.
There is a weekly, 7th day, Lord’s Day for the church, but so far, not one denomination has it right. This will change.
Bob 2 said: His declaration that He was Lord of the Sabbath, meant he had the authority for it to stay in force or to be fulfilled by Him in His Flesh as the NT/NC states.
Tom said: The question is not whether Christ has the authority to destroy the Sabbath doctrine, but did he do so? He may not even have had such authority, as Christ is now subordinate to God, and must do as his father directs. But regardless, where does Jesus teach an abolished Sabbath doctrine? Nowhere.
Secondly, Christ has no basis, or authority, to declare himself the “fulfillment” of the Sabbath because there was no such prophecy or concept in Judaism.
I repeat: the OT has no such concept or prediction, which is why Christ never claimed that he was, in any way, the fulfillment of the Sabbath.
Here is another bald face lie from the NCT crowd. They are just making things up as they go along. Absurd and very dishonest. Let all beware NCT, or anyone that has embraced this heresy.
Bob, stop making false claims for Christ. Stop promoting a false Gospel that is based on fiction and myth.
Bob 2 said: For you to belittle the Apostles and Prophets of the NT/NC shows how far off the mark you are. They had the Holy Spirit directing them and Jesus stated how important that was going to be.
Tom replied: I am not belittling Christ or the apostles. Why would you think such a thing? I am calling you a fool for believing NCT and for buying into such obvious fiction and error. Jesus and the Apostles understand the Reformed Sabbath of Christ. They are not wrong, you are!
You need to repent before it is too late. Your mind may already be ruined; in which case, you will never be able to understand the Gospel correctly. This is the sad fate of many.
Bob 2 said: The issue of rest and peace, the ultimate goal of the Christian is addressed so clearly, even Tom Norris has to blind himself not to see it.
Tom said: Ha! This is funny. Your claim that Jesus clearly teaches that he is the fulfillment of the Sabbath is not based on the Gospels. This is your problem. You make false statements about Christ.
So where does Jesus teach what you claim? I can’t find him making any such remarks. In fact, Jesus NEVER teaches that his Reformed Sabbath is about rest. And the NT NEVER shows Jesus resting on the Sabbath or teaching others to rest on the 7th day. THIS is what is clear. NOT what you claim.
One of us is blind.
Bob posted: Matthew 11: 25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Tom said: Bob, this passage condemns you. First off, it shows that people cannot easily understand what Jesus teaches, unless God “reveals” the Gospel to our minds. It is obvious to me that this has not happened with you as yet.
Secondly, here Jesus states that God supports him in all things. This is a reference to his Reformed Sabbath, which the Jews hated. This can be seen in more detail in John.
Third, this passage, with its reference to “rest,” is a “set up” for the discussion about the Sabbath, which follows in Chapter 12.
Jesus is now our Gospel rest, 24/7; - NOT A DAY. Thus he says: “Come unto me:” He does not say: “Follow Moses,” but “follow Christ.” Big difference.
Christians are not to obey the 4th Commandment or enter into the rest of Moses. What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath trumps Moses.
Bob 2 said: Tom, the Sabbath was given because the Jews had been overworked, its objective was REST.
Tom said: Wrong. The Jews are very clear about the origin and purpose of the 7th day Sabbath. It is first and foremost linked to the Creation Story, and so it will forever be.
Secondly, the fact that the Jews were slaves, or that they left Egypt to worship God on the Sabbath, is beside the original definition and purpose of the Sabbath.
Third. Judaism is the context and source for the NC and the Gospel. Jesus and his apostles were Jews, and so too the Gospel, which is 100% Jewish. With such a Semitic pedigree, it makes sense that the NC Israel, the Church, would also have some type of Sabbath doctrine.
Bob 2 said: Jesus says he can give this, fulfill this need in Himself. As Lord of the Sabbath, He was also Lord of REST.
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.
Tom said: Jesus is the Lord of everything, including the Sabbath. But his view of the Sabbath promoted work, not rest. So there is no such thing as the “Lord of Rest.” But that was a nice try.
So here is another point where NCT is wrong and confused. There is no “rest” associated with the NC Sabbath of Christ.
Jesus in not the Lord of Sabbath rest, but of Sabbath activity. Anyone following the “Lord of Rest” is following a false Christ.
Bob 2 posted: His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Tom replied: The “New Covenant man” is a Christian. A blend of both Jew and Gentile. He is not to be OC minded, but NC only. Which includes what Jesus teaches about the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath.
Bob 2 posted: Heb 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[e] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
Tom said: This passage does not help your theory. I know you like the fact it uses the word rest in association with the Sabbath, but Jesus never makes such a statement or takes such a view. So it cannot help you for that reason, as well as for the fact it shows there is a doctrine of the Sabbath for the church.
In other words, this passage does not support what NCT teaches. No surprise here.
The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242
Bob 2 said: Tom, when Jesus was talking about the Sabbath, He talked of the soul's need for rest, which he could provide. If the disciples, and Apostles did not see this, Col 2: 16, 17 pointed out the reality is in Jesus.
Tom replied: Jesus often talked and debated about the Sabbath in the Gospels. A fact, which destroys NCT.
However, I can’t find the location where he says what you claim. Why is that? Where does Jesus teach that the Sabbath is about “rest.”? And where does he say he has fulfilled the Sabbath?
While you cite Corinthians, this book does not contain Jesus Sabbath teachings as you claim. So why the games?
The Gospels are full of Jesus Sabbath teaching. The fact that you cannot find him teaching what you claim is fatal for your false views. Jesus does not teach what you claim. Sorry.
Bob 2 said: Tom, because he aggravated the Jewish leaders about the Sabbath and Jesus reclaiming it to the purpose for which it was given in the OT/OC is not to say He declared the Sabbath to be a New Covenant permanent doctrine.
Tom said: So you think Jesus was “reclaiming” the OC Sabbath, bringing it back to its original purpose for the Jews? Wow! What a fertile imagination you have? Why would he do this if the OC were going to become obsolete? No one reclaims something that is meant to be destroyed.
My bible shows Moses executing a man for picking up firewood on the 7th day, even as it was also a sin to make a fire, cook, travel, write, harvest, heal, etc, etc. So how can Jesus be said to be bringing the Sabbath back to this OC view? Impossible.
Jesus promoted activity and work on the 7th day. NEVER rest.
So he was not promoting the OC Sabbath, but something very new and very different. Jesus teaches am active, NC, weekly Sabbath for the church, every 7th day. He gives an exemption that allows all to work without sin on the 7th day. Those who say otherwise do not know Christ, much less understand the Gospel.
Bob 2 said: He had to keep the Law (10 Commandments) perfectly to be our Savior. As the Advocate and Savior of the NT/NC you cannot point to a NT/NC doctrine that shows this.
Tom said: Wrong. Who are you to tell Christ what he must do? On whose authority? Jesus was under no obligation to obey the OC law; he was here to follow God’s plan and start the NC.
Jesus claims that God taught him the NC Sabbath. The Jews thought he was mad. So too do you. For anyone to claim that Christ is wrong about the doctrine of the Sabbath is to deny Christ and reject the Gospel. This is exactly what NCT teaches.
Bob 2 said: The New Covenant started no earlier than John the Baptist and no latter than Pentecost.
Tom said: Stop the games. The NC started when Jesus was born on earth. The preaching of the Gospel started with the ministry of Christ. And the NC was inaugurated by the blood of the Cross-, at the end of Jesus' ministry. When Jesus returns at the 2nd Coming; that will be the Day of Judgment for the world. It too is part of the Gospel.
Bob 2 said: There was a “phase—in” of His Kingdom. Not all knowledge was collated in the minds of the Apostles; Jesus may have given a complete Gospel message but not complete doctrine that the NC would abide by.
Tom said: Wow! Here comes more heresy from the blind.
Let all understand that Jesus teaches a full and complete 100% Gospel.
This Gnostic idea that Christ did not fully explain the Gospel is blasphemy. It is an excuse to add false doctrines to the Gospel of Christ.
This is what the SDA’s have done with the IJ and what everyone has done over time. This is why most think the Sabbath is on Sunday. But Jesus never taught a Sunday Lord’s day.
NCT has also followed this worn out path that leads away from Christ and his Word. Their claim that Jesus failed to explain all 10 commandments from a Gospel point of view is blasphemy.
Bob 2 said: He would send the Holy Spirit to guide men.
Tom said: You are such a deceiver that it boggles the mind. Jesus clearly teaches that the Hold Spirit will be sent to guide our minds back to his Gospel words.
John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
The HS does not, and cannot, show anyone new doctrine. He can only re-enforce what Jesus has taught. If Christ did not preach x, then it is too late to add it later. Sorry.
This idea that the HS has taught a new Sabbath doctrine to the NCT crowd is outrageous heresy and blasphemy. The men who invented this nonsense had better repent before it is too late. They are acting very foolish, and so too any that would embrace their anti-Christ double-talk.
Bob 2 said: He personally selected to give the rest of what He would reveal. Acts 15 shows what they were requiring the Gentiles and it was not the 10 Commandments as OT/OC.
Tom said: Who did Jesus “select” to teach that the weekly 7th day Sabbath was being replaced by an Every Day Spiritual Sabbath? Paul? Zaspel? You? Hardly. Paul was not the Lord of the Sabbath, nor did he teach NCT or this nonsense about an abolished or Every Day Sabbath.
No person on earth has been given any new doctrine as NCT claims. Not about the Sabbath or anything else. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. What he taught in the Gospels about the Sabbath, is what the church must embrace today.
Those looking for a new Christ of their own making will find many. Such is the state of the church in the last days. Most all are blind to the Gospel, unable to understand it or even define it correctly.
2Tim. 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2Tim. 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
No wonder the PAJ in Rev 3: 14 condemns all denominations at the end of time. NONE of them has a correct Gospel, much less a correct doctrine of the NC Sabbath.
NCT is based on myths and double-talk; they are part of the problem, even as they are leading people away from Christ.
Let all repent of NCT; and run towards the genuine Christ of the NT.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris, for the 7th day, New Covenant Sabbath of Christ
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Tom said: While you will never find Jesus teaching an OC version of the Sabbath, he did teach a very different and Reformed, NC Sabbath doctrine. This cannot be denied, but yet, this is what you are still trying to do. Shame on you.
Tom, are you suggesting that Jesus as our Savior could and did change the tenets of the very law that He had to keep to save us? The minutia that the Pharisees had gotten into was ripe to be tackled by Jesus. I don't think by saying it is OK to do good things on the Sabbath day was a major reform of the logic of why it was given and how it had adjusted or must adjust to be relevant. There is so much silence on the keeping of the Sabbath in the NT/NC, yet rather than mirror the amount of time spent on the Sabbath issue, you make it your "cause celebre". It was one of the major signs that Israel was God's people. Not the same for the New Covenant. Baptism and communion were the new symbols. It is OK for any church to worship on the Sabbath, but to make it a salvific issue or doctrine is straining the NT/NC words, if not fabricating from thin air.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-09-13 8:18 pm)
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In a futile effort to defend NCT, Bob asked the SDA critic Sal, over at All Experts.com, for his view about Jesus and the Sabbath.
Here is the question followed by Sal’s reply:
To Expert: Sal - 7/8/2013
Question:
Bob 2 said: I am doing a book review on Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel book, New Covenant Theology.
Book Review: New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1180
I have engaged Tom Norris in my study, who claims the Reformed Sabbath was created by Jesus. I have asked him for scriptural proof without result.
See:
NCT Exposed As Error- By Tom Norris
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … id=953&p=1
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … 709#p11709
NCT believes that the Mosaic Law was fulfilled by Jesus.
That is why I mentioned Col 2:16, 17.
Tom believes that Jesus stated all that is necessary to understanding about the Sabbath in the New Covenant era.
The Reformed Sabbath of Christ
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228
My question, if there was an Old and New Covenant, did they see the Sabbath differently?
Heb 8:13 shows me an obsolete Old Covenant.
My question, how did Jesus leave the Sabbath?
Bob Sands, NCT Supporter
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=12
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sal’s Answer:
Dear Brother Bob:
I believe that Mr. Tom Norris is very capable of answering his own questions.
Concerning his Reformed or New Covenant Sabbath I believe that he has provided ample scriptural proof to support his claim.
Please see the following answers from Mr. Norris:
New Covenant versus Old Covenant Sabbath- by Tom Norris
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … us-Old.htm
Reformed Sabbath- by Tom Norris
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … bath-1.htm
New Covenant/ Gospel Sabbath- by Tom Norris
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm
You ask, "if there was an Old and New Covenant, did they see the Sabbath differently?" Do you believe that there was only one covenant?
Yes, those under the covenants did see the Sabbath differently.
The Israelites saw the Sabbath as the sign of their covenant with God (cf. Exodus 31:12-17). To violate the Sabbath meant certain death (cf. Exodus 35:2).
In the New Covenant the early Church saw the Sabbath as an option (cf. Romans 14:5).
The sign of the Old Covenant was seen as obsolete (cf. Hebrews 8:13)and that is how Jesus left the Sabbath.
Have a blessed day,
Brother Sal
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … eology.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom said: Bob, this was not the answer you were looking for was it? Did you learn anything? Are you able to admit your errors and repent of NCT?
Why did you not share your question to Sal, and his answer, with us? Were you going to pretend it didn’t happen because you did not get the answers you wanted?
Did you think no one would see your post at All Experts?
You have a bad habit of ignoring any evidence that proves you wrong. You do it all the time. And here is yet another example.
NC Sabbath of Christ Beyond Denial
It seems Sal is beginning to understand the Reformed Sabbath of Christ. While he is correct to claim that Jesus did away with the OC Sabbath, it is not correct to claim that the NC Sabbath, which he taught, is “optional.”
The weekly Lord’s Day was not an “option” for the apostolic church. Nor did Jesus claim to be the Lord of the “optional” Sabbath.
Jesus teaches a very clear and theologically brilliant doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath in all four Gospels. His view of the NC Sabbath is not an “option” but mandatory for all that follow him.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also
Matt. 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
In fact, when it comes to the Reformed Sabbath, Jesus teaches that we must follow only his view, - as if we were sheep, and he the Good Shepherd. The sheep are given no option but to follow the Shepherd if they want Eternal Life. If they follow a false Shepherd, they will be lost.
Regardless, Sal is making good progress. New Doctrines (to us) require time to study, absorb, and process. Some do this better than others. Those who are honest and prize the concept of truth, will find it. Those who refuse to admit they are wrong will remain blind, unable to comprehend the Gospel.
Scriptural Support for NC Sabbath
Bob, you loudly complained that I have not provided scriptural support for the NC, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. You know this is not true. And no one is buying this slander. I have given you scores of texts, including long passages in the Gospels where Jesus teaches his Reformed Sabbath doctrine.
You need to admit that Tom Norris has shown you numerous passages where Christ teaches about the Sabbath. It’s just that you do not want to believe Jesus’ words. So you deny they exist. This is the same game that the NCT crowd plays. Sad.
However, you know that the moment you make such a true confession; NCT falls in a heap of worthless words. As it should. So admit the truth and let is fall.
Do not cling to NCT, which teaches that Jesus taught no doctrine of the Sabbath. Such mindless and blind denial of the Word is futile. The Gospel facts refute NCT.
Listen to Sal, an SDA critic; refute what you are saying about Tom Norris and the NC Sabbath. He admits there is “ample scriptural proof” for the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath of Christ, and so too should you.
Sal said: “Concerning his Reformed or New Covenant Sabbath, I believe that he has provided ample scriptural proof to support his claim.”
Tom said: It is only a matter of time before the true, NC Sabbath doctrine goes viral. At some point, the Holy Spirit will open minds to better understand what Christ teaches. Rev 18 shows this taking place. It is only a matter of time.
When God wants the church to better understand the Gospel and the NC Sabbath, he is not going to wait for the SDA’s. Or, for anyone else. Eschatology keeps unfolding, even as the world gets ever closer to its horrific end.
Let all understand that there is a (seemingly) new doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath emerging for the church. It dates from the 1st century, from the ministry of Christ.
While NCT was correct to understand that Sunday was wrong and that no church had a correct NC view of the Sabbath, they failed to find the proper solution.
So they get points for trying, and for understanding that the doctrine of the Sabbath is confused and incorrect. But now they too must repent because they got it wrong. The genuine Lord’s Day doctrine has emerged for all to see in the early 21st century. It is not NCT, but the 7th day, NC Sabbath of Christ. Who saw it coming? Not me.
Let all seek to learn the truth about the NC Sabbath, aka, the Lord’s Day directly from Christ in the Gospels.
Let all drop their defenses and stop pretending their personal views are correct. No view of the Sabbath can be correct if it does not conform to what Jesus teaches in the Gospels.
A false view of the Sabbath means a false view of the Gospel and of Christ. Let all beware.
Mark 4:9 And He was saying, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris, for New Covenant Adventism
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Tom, you missed Sal's conclusion:
In the New Covenant the early Church saw the Sabbath as an option (cf. Romans 14:5).
[Romans 14:5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.]
The sign of the Old Covenant was seen as obsolete (cf. Hebrews 8:13)[Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.]
and that is how Jesus left the Sabbath.
Have a blessed day,
Brother Sal
You caught what he said about your responses but I think he was saying you gave enough scripture [to be convinced in your own mind].
Last edited by bob_2 (07-10-13 7:05 pm)
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Bob 2 said: Tom, you missed Sal's conclusion:
In the New Covenant the early Church saw the Sabbath as an option (cf. Romans 14:5).
Tom replied: No. I remarked about what he said, you must have missed it.
Tom previously said:
“It seems Sal is beginning to understand the Reformed Sabbath of Christ. While he is correct to claim that Jesus did away with the OC Sabbath, it is not correct to claim that the NC Sabbath, which he taught, is “optional.”
“The weekly Lord’s Day was not an “option” for the apostolic church. Nor did Jesus claim to be the Lord of the “optional” Sabbath.”
“Jesus teaches a very clear and theologically brilliant doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath in all four Gospels. His view of the NC Sabbath is not an “option” but mandatory for all that follow him.”
So Bob, once again, you are wrong again. Your ability to understand this discussion is problematic.
Bob 2 said: You caught what he said about your responses but I think he was saying you gave enough scripture [to be convinced in your own mind].
Tom replied: Ha! This is too funny. You are a hopeless case, unable to understand what anyone says about anything. Your ability to reason seems compromised by your obsession with the errors of NCT. Sad.
Sal was not answering any questions about “my mind,” but about the topic of the NC Sabbath. You complained that Tom Norris was not giving scriptural evidence for this new, 7th day Sabbath doctrine. He refuted your position, which is dishonest and clearly absurd.
THIS is what happened!
But of course, you being a former SDA, you know how to deny the facts and spin things to try and vindicate your false views. This is how both the SDA’s and many of the former SDA’s still operate today. Sad.
Many today act just like the 1st century Jews. The SDA Community, including the many who have left, is especially guilty of much unbelief and double-talk.
Let all drop their defenses and stop pretending their personal and confused views are correct. No doctrine of the Sabbath/ Lord’s Day can be correct if it does not conform to what Jesus teaches in the Gospels.
Matt. 13:15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’
Tom Norris for NC Adventism
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Tom, you missed the prominent most important part that Sal made. The answer to, "How did Jesus leave the Sabbath when He ascended to heaven." His answer was Heb 8:13. With that response, then all I can possibly see as Sal's answers, are:
1. Tom convinced himself and should keep the Sabbath by his reconning.
2. The Sabbath, a big sign of the OC, is obsolete along with the rest of the OT/OC. That is how Jesus left the Sabbath. (You conveniently left this part of Sal's answer out.)
Tom, Sal was following Col 2:16-17, not judging another about a holy day, but to be convinced in your own mind. Where it is not objective and absolute, one must leave the issue to man's conscience, if he is convicted to keep the Sabbath, he should do it. There is another text about having two opinions in one church:
1 Cor 8:9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone with a weak conscience sees you, with all your knowledge, eating in an idol’s temple, won’t that person be emboldened to eat what is sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak brother or sister, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 When you sin against them in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall.
and
1 Cor 10:23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.
25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience. 29 I am referring to the other person’s conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another’s conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?
31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.
and
Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-11-13 5:17 pm)
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Bob 2 said: Tom, you missed the prominent, most important part that Sal made.
Tom said: Ha! I think you missed most of what Sal wrote, - like 75% to be specific. That is not good. Why are you having such a difficult time understanding the points being made?
First off, FOUR points were addressed by Sal, not just one.
Moreover, your claim about which point is the “most important” is also distorted and incorrect. No surprise here.
Let’s breakdown Sal’s 4 Points:
#1) Sal’s first point was to make clear that he was not speaking for Tom Norris, nor answering for him.
Sal said: “I believe that Mr. Tom Norris is very capable of answering his own questions.”
Sal is giving his own observations, which have changed over the years. Of course when I went to All Experts, no one had ever heard of the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath. So it caught everyone by surprise, both the SDA critics, like Sal, and the SDA defenders.
Sal always kept an open mind and became increasingly positive towards the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath, as he will make clear later.
Sal is a longtime, and very harsh, critic of the SDA’s. He has seen the emergence of this new Sabbath doctrine, close up and personal. His growing support should be noted.
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-52014 … ts/Sal.htm
#2) The next point speaks to the credibility of the Reformed Sabbath as promoted by Tom Norris.
Here is the most important issue.
Does the NT really teach this strange, weekly Sabbath, where activity replaces rest on the 7th day?
Is there clear Gospel evidence for such a new view of the Sabbath?
Sal, the SDA critic, said YES.
After watching the online debate for many years, Sal has concluded that Tom Norris “has provided ample scriptural proof to support his claim.”
Sal said: “Concerning his Reformed or New Covenant Sabbath I believe that he has provided ample scriptural proof to support his claim.”
Tom said: I agree. There are legions of NT passages, mostly in the Gospels, to prove and sustain the 7th day, NC Sabbath of Christ. Only a blind person could claim otherwise.
The Gospels are full of Jesus’ controversial Sabbath teaching, which infuriated the Jews and sent him to the cross. How could the church have missed this doctrine all these years? How could the SDA’s? How can anyone today?
To make it clear, Sal then said: “Please see the following answers from Mr. Norris” about the Reformed Sabbath. Then he gave you three All Expert posts made by Tom Norris about the Gospel Sabbath under discussion.
Did you read them? If not, you should.
Let all understand that a NEW doctrine about the 7th day Sabbath has emerged for all to see. It is really a very old doctrine, dating at least back to the 1st century AD. But it appears brand new to us today.
This “new” doctrine changes the discussion about Adventism, even as it means that a positive paradigm shift for Adventism is in progress.
3) The next point deals with the question of whether there are two different types of Sabbath. One for the OC, and another for the NC?
Tom Norris says yes. Sal agrees.
Sal said: “You ask, "if there was an Old and New Covenant, did they see the Sabbath differently?" ... Yes, those under the covenants did see the Sabbath differently.”
Tom said: Sal is correct. Of course there is a different Sabbath for the Church. This is what the Sunday Lord’s day has been for centuries. The SDA’s made the mistake of embracing the OC Sabbath of the Jews, and not the NC Sabbath of Christ. The Reformed Sabbath corrects this error.
4) The last point made was about the definition of the NC Sabbath. Or at least how Sal thinks the Church viewed the Sabbath.
Here Sal does not do very well. But he does well enough to discredit NCT, which flat out denies any weekly Sabbath for the church, either on Sunday or the 7th day.
NCT denies that Jesus teaches a Sabbath “option” for the church. This is why they have so many critics. They claim Jesus only included 9 of the 10 commandments in his “law” – omitting the 4th.
Sal said: In the New Covenant the early Church saw the Sabbath as an option (cf. Romans 14:5). The sign of the Old Covenant was seen as obsolete (cf. Hebrews 8:13) and that is how Jesus left the Sabbath.
Tom said: The real question is what did Jesus teach about the NC Sabbath? The answer to this question shows what the Church must also believe, and what they did believe for a short time.
So Bob, once again, you lose. Nothing that Sal said in any of his 4 points, in any way helps defend NCT, which has been destroyed by Tom Norris over and over. NCT is as wrong as the IJ.
I suggest that you repent while you have the option, and run to Jesus in the Gospels and learn what he teaches about the Gospel Sabbath. There is no other way to learn.
As a former SDA, you have much to unlearn and relearn before you are ready to discuss religion, much less stand in the Day of Judgment.
Bob 2 said: The answer to, "How did Jesus leave the Sabbath when He ascended to heaven." His (Sal’s) answer was Heb 8:13.
Tom said: Like I said: Sal did not do well with this answer. I note that he failed to quote from Jesus, who is the primary source for the NC Sabbath. But so what? This is new to him and at least he is trying to deal with the evidence honestly, which is something that you need to try.
This doctrine is so unknown and so new, that few, including the SDA’s, know what Jesus teaches in the NT about the Sabbath or anything else for that matter.
But guess what? Sal did well enough to:
A) Defend the credibility of the Reformed Sabbath as presented by Tom Norris, and to,
B) Discredit NCT, which teaches that there is no weekly Sabbath for the church.
He also posted up the proper posts by Tom Norris that explained and defined the Reformed Gospel Sabbath, and also claimed that there WAS credible support in the NT for this new doctrine.
(Of course you missed all this, just like you missed Jesus’ teaching the NC Sabbath in the Gospels).
It is only a matter of time before those who are honest with the Gospels, and are serious about receiving Eternal Life, move forward and embrace what Christ teaches about the 7th day Sabbath and all other things as well.
Bob 2 said: With that response, then all I can possibly see as Sal's answers, are:
1. Tom convinced himself and should keep the Sabbath by his reckoning.
Tom said: So you think Sal concluded that Tom Norris was delusional and wrong? THIS is what you “see.”
Wow! I think you are making things up and seeing what you want to see.
Sal went on record stating that “ample scripture” supported Tom Norris’ new view of the Reformed Sabbath. This is what you should have seen, because this is what took place. Why can you not see things clearly?
Sal said: “Concerning his Reformed or New Covenant Sabbath I believe that he has provided ample scriptural proof to support his claim.”
Sal did not say Tom Norris has fooled himself into believing unsupported doctrine. He said the opposite. He said that Tom Norris has “provided ample scriptural proof to support his claim.”
The fact you are in denial about the Gospels is beside the points being made. NCT has lost the debate. It is being replaced and refuted by the Active and Reformed 7th day Sabbath of Christ. Here is the correct doctrine for the church.
Bob 2 said: 2. The Sabbath, a big sign of the OC, is obsolete along with the rest of the OT/OC. That is how Jesus left the Sabbath.
Tom said: Of course Jesus abolished the OC Sabbath! I have never said otherwise. In fact, this is why the Jews were so angry with Christ. He was removing their ancient Sabbath Law and revising it into something very different.
While the Sabbath DAY was Holy in the OC, not so in the NC. Instead, JESUS, the Lord of the Sabbath is HOLY, not the Day. The Jews opted for the Day and rejected Christ. Big mistake. (So too have the SDA's).
Bob 2 said: Tom, Sal was following Col 2:16-17, not judging another about a holy day, but to be convinced in your own mind.
Tom said: The Gospel Sabbath of Christ is showcased, defined, and defended in the four Gospels. Here is the correct source to understand how Christ explains his view of the 7th day Sabbath. Only his view matters. Those who look in the wrong place, or to the wrong theologian, will only confuse themselves and miss out on what Jesus, the Good Shepherd and master theologian teaches. Such an error is fatal for the sheep.
Bob 2 said: Where it is not objective and absolute, one must leave the issue to man's conscience, if he is convicted to keep the Sabbath, he should do it. There is another text about having two opinions in one church:
Tom said: Jesus teaches a very clear and articulated doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. He did not teach multiple Sabbath doctrines for his followers to pick and choose. Nor did he leave it up to the individual to make up his own doctrine about the Lord's Day. Such views are utter nonsense.
If you want to understand or discuss the doctrine of the NC Sabbath, you must quote from the Gospels. Not from Paul. He is not the Lord of the Sabbath, nor did he explain it in detail as Christ has done in the Gospels.
The longer you refuse to read and quote the words of Christ, and ignore what he teaches about the Sabbath, the worse off your anti-Christ views will become.
Your position is hopeless, (and so too the Sabbath of the SDA's). NCT cannot be defended. Sorry.
You need to admit that Tom Norris has shown you numerous passages where Christ teaches a Reformed, Active, 7th day Sabbath. This cannot be denied. It’s just that you do not want to believe Jesus’ words. THIS is the problem. So you deny they exist. This is the same game that the NCT crowd plays. Sad.
However, you know that the moment you make such a true confession; NCT falls in a heap of worthless words. As it should.
So admit the truth and let is fall.
Do not cling to NCT, which teaches that Jesus taught no doctrine of the Sabbath. Such a mindless and blind denial of the Gospels is futile. Jesus refutes NCT, and so too must those who follow him.
Tom Norris, for the newly discovered, 7th day Gospel Sabbath
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Sal said: “Concerning his Reformed or New Covenant Sabbath I believe that he has provided ample scriptural proof to support his claim.” Enough to be convinced in your own mind.
But you missed pointing out this because it does not follow your line of reasoning:
Yes, those under the covenants did see the Sabbath differently. The Israelites saw the Sabbath as the sign of their covenant with God (cf. Exodus 31:12-17). To violate the Sabbath meant certain death (cf. Exodus 35:2). In the New Covenant the early Church saw the Sabbath as an option (cf. Romans 14:5). The sign of the Old Covenant was seen as obsolete (cf. Hebrews 8:13)and that is how Jesus left the Sabbath.
1. The Bible says we should all be convince in our own minds. You have done that. Let's not argue your point.
2. "In the New Covenant the Early Church saw the Sabbath as an option (cf. Romans 14:5).The sign of the Old Covenant was seen as obsolete (cf. Hebrews 8:13 and that is how Jesus left the Sabbath.)
He has very cleverly answered both our questions, giving satisfactory answers. You believe their is but one right answer, the scripture does not support your view.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-13-13 11:35 am)
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Bob, you are impossibly dishonest and delusional. Just like when you believed the IJ and the OC Sabbath for most of your life. Too bad you have only exchanged one set of false SDA errors for another set of false doctrines. Where has it gotten you?
NCT is not credible or true. It is as bad as what the cultic SDA’s teach. But yet, it has a great hold over your confused mind, which has been ruined by so many years of cultic SDA doctrine. I know a number of people like this. Very sad.
Bob 2 posted what Sal said about Tom Norris’ view of the Sabbath: Sal said: “Concerning his Reformed or New Covenant Sabbath I believe that he (Tom Norris) has provided ample scriptural proof to support his claim.”
Bob then added his own words, trying to change Sal’s meaning, and thus score some points for NCT.
Bob added the words: Enough to be convinced in your own mind.
Tom replied: Bob, you are one of the most dishonest people I have ever met. You have no qualms about twisting whatever anyone says or writes into something that supports your errors.
Sal did not say, or imply, what you have attributed to him. Shame on you.
Sal did not say: “Enough to be convinced in your own mind.” These were YOUR WORDS. You are not allowed to change what people state in order to make your errors seem true.
Your misquoting of Sal is nothing more than a bald face lie. He already said that he was not speaking for Tom Norris, but for himself. Yet, you now claim he was speaking on my behalf. You are adding words and thoughts to what others say in order to change the original meaning. This is way out of bounds my friend. There are rules to any civilized discussion, and you need to keep them or leave.
This is what you do with the Bible all the time, so I guess I should not be surprised to see you try to manipulate others, like Sal. I guess you have no conscience and that playing dirty is a way of life with you. So be it. This is how the NCT crowd acts all the time, and so too the IJ screamers. They are both very dishonest and impossible to instruct.
Bob 2 said: But you missed pointing out this because it does not follow your line of reasoning:
Tom said: How can I miss something that was never said or implied? Sal did not say or mean what you claim. So I didn’t miss anything. But you sure did.
Bob, you ability to understand and think is so compromised, that there is no use continuing with this discussion. You refuse to honestly deal with the issues, even as you take care to avoid quoting from the Gospels, which is the real source for the Reformed Sabbath of Christ, which you hate with such a passion.
Such dishonest, and careless double-talk is not going to work in this discussion, nor will it help you in the Day of Judgment. Don’t you know that you will have to “give an account” of your “careless” theology to Christ himself.
Matt. 12:36 “But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
So Bob, consider this; if you can’t win this debate with Tom Norris, and you cannot, what chance do you have trying to promote NCT to Christ on the Judgment Day?
Answer: ZERO!
Here is what Christ will say to you:
John 3:19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
Bob, pay attention: Anyone that refutes the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ, is blind. Not only that, they love darkness. The judgment is made for such people as yourself.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Few “hear” the true words of Christ, and few today believe his Gospel Sabbath. No wonder Jesus condemns and demands that all in the last church repent and reform. They are all wrong about the Gospel. And the Sabbath proves this point for all to see.
Bob 2 said: Yes, those under the covenants did see the Sabbath differently. The Israelites saw the Sabbath as the sign of their covenant with God (cf. Exodus 31:12-17). To violate the Sabbath meant certain death (cf. Exodus 35:2).
Tom said: We all agree on this. So what is your point?
Bob 2 said: In the New Covenant the early Church saw the Sabbath as an option (cf. Romans 14:5).
Tom replied: Wrong. Jesus was not the “optional” Lord of the “optional” Sabbath. Nor was he the “optional” Good Shepherd, as if anyone could take his place and lead the sheep in another direction. There is no optional direction away from Christ; there is no “optional Christ.”
This “optional” Sabbath view makes no sense, nor does the NT teach such double-talk and error.
Nor will you find any credible theologian claiming that Jesus is teaching the church “optional” doctrines, which they may or may not embrace, depending on how they feel.
If you think the Gospel allows for multiple interpretations and divisions in the church, then you are completely in the dark, hopeless and confused.
Moreover, NCT does not teach an optional view of the Sabbath. For them there is no option because there is no weekly Sabbath for the church.
So even this point, which is wrong, disproves NCT. Do you understand? Even if the “optional” Sabbath were true, (which it is not), it destroys NCT.
However, you are welcome to go to your death with your current set of false and impossible doctrines. No problem for me.
At the Judgment, you can simply explain why you refuse to follow Christ’s Gospel and why you rejected his 7th day, Reformed, Sabbath doctrine, which you claim does not exist, or at least is only an “optional” suggestion by Christ.
No doubt you will misquote the NT and try to find a way to save your stubborn, Gospel hating soul. But it will be too late. Not even Paul will help you. And you can forget Zaspel and the NCT crowd; they will be busy receiving a harsher judgment, because they were the ringleaders in this false, anti-Christ movement, which has duped so many.
James 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
At the Judgment, I can see you trying to claim that Paul has done away with the Sabbath and that Jesus did not teach any such doctrine for the church. Then you will also quote Zaspel to say there is no weekly Sabbath for the church, and then quote Sal, who gave you permission to view Jesus teachings as if they are “optional.”
How do you think it will go for you?
Be warned: Jesus will not listen to your NCT garbage, and neither should anyone today pay attention to this anti-Gospel, anti-Christ nonsense.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
True sheep will only follow the true Shepherd. Bad sheep will follow strangers, thus straying away from Christ and becoming lost. Bob, you are a bad sheep, trying to lead others in the wrong direction. Be careful.
Bob 2 repeated: The sign of the Old Covenant was seen as obsolete (cf. Hebrews 8:13), and that is how Jesus left the Sabbath.
Tom said: While the OC Sabbath is “obsolete” for the church, not so the NC doctrine. Consequently, there is a NC weekly Lord’s day for the church. It is not Sunday, but the 7th day. It is not a holy day of rest, but a day of activity, work, and praise to God for his holy Gospel and Christ.
Few today have ever heard of this 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. But that will change. Shame on the SDA’s for not understanding this correct doctrine many years ago, in 1888, when they had the opportunity. They have been confused ever since and show no signs of trying to be honest.
Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
Jesus teaches, a NC Lord’s Day, and so too the rest of the NT. Those today that can’t grasp or process such a Gospel doctrine, claiming there is no such teachings from Christ, are spiritually blind and unsaved. Just like the Jews that also rejected the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
Bob 2 said: 1. The Bible says we should all be convinced in our own minds. You have done that. Let's not argue your point.
Tom replied: Wrong. Neither the OT or the NT teaches “optional” doctrines as you claim. The Law was not optional for the Jews and neither is the Gospel for any Christian. Nor is prophecy subject to our personal views and interpretations. You would know this if you understood Christ.
John 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
2Pet. 1:19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
2Pet. 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
2Pet. 1:21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
The Gospel is the greatest of “prophecy.” It was not invented by man, but by God, and it came on time, as per plan. It is not subject to our personal views or interpretations, much less the double-talk of NCT or the SDA’s.
Today, we either listen to Christ, and believe what he teaches, or we do not. Anyone that thinks they can turn their back on what Jesus teaches about the 7th day, are being very foolish. They are also very lost.
The NT does not teach a number of different Gospels, much less any optional Sabbath doctrines. What Jesus teaches about the 4th Commandment is what the church must understand and follow. Period. There is only one Gospel and one Gospel Sabbath.
Why is this point even up for debate? How can the sheep refuse to follow the Good Shepherd? They cannot. Salvation is only for those that follow Christ. It is not for those who refuse and go another way.
Bob 2 said: 2. "In the New Covenant the Early Church saw the Sabbath as an option (cf. Romans 14:5).
Tom said: Wrong. The apostolic church was 100% Jewish. They always met on the 7th day, just as Moses, and now Jesus taught them. They never taught that there were many different Sabbath doctrines, much less Sunday or the Every Day, spiritual Sabbath of NCT.
Moreover, the book of Romans is not the correct source to understand the NC Sabbath of Christ. But of course you know this already. You are just misquoting the NT in order to ignore and repudiate what Christ teaches in all four Gospels about the NC Sabbath.
How stupid do you think they are in heaven? How dumb are people on earth? Do you think Jesus supports your false, anti-Gospel views? Hardly. NCT is poison.
Bob 2 said: He (Sal) very cleverly answered both our questions, giving satisfactory answers. You believe there is but one right answer, the scripture does not support this.
Tom said: Wrong. You seem to have lost the ability to reason and understand. This is not healthy, nor will it help you win this debate.
Sal is a straight shooter. He does not double-talk, like most all of the SDA’s that he argues with over at All Experts. He is trying to honestly follow the Word, which is very refreshing. Few SDA’s or former SDA’s try to be so honest.
Bob, you are one of the most dishonest and confused persons I have ever met. I can tell that you were once a great IJ supporter. Those people often suffer brain damage. They spend so much time defending cultic error, that they soon lose the ability to reason and understand anything. Sad.
Mark 4:25 “For whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.”
This has obviously happened to you. I wish I could help, but you may have passed the point of no return. Many refuse to see and thus they are ruined, unable to understand Gospel truth.
NCT Rejects Christ
NCT appears to be searching the scriptures, both OT and NT, to find the truth about the Sabbath. These religious authors often quote the apostles very approvingly, but not so much Jesus. In fact, they deny that Jesus teaches a doctrine of the Sabbath and often pretend that he has little or nothing to say about the matter, except that he somehow removed the Sabbath, which is the point of NCT.
How ironic. Where have we seen this fact pattern before? Oh yes, in the Gospels. In John 5, which is but one of many, long chapters about the Sabbath.
Here we see Jesus and the Jerusalem Jews debating about the 7th day Sabbath. Jesus, of course, is promoting his active and working view of the 4th Commandment, while the Jews were defending the OC Sabbath of Moses, where it was sinful to work on the Sabbath.
John 5:8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.”
John 5:9 Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk. Now it was the Sabbath on that day.
John 5:10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”
It is at this point that Jesus invokes God the Father and claims that he, Jesus, is only doing what he was instructed about the 7th day by God.
John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5 represents a great battle between the OC Sabbath and the NC Sabbath. To misunderstand what it taking place in this long passage, (and others), is to misunderstand the Gospel, as well as the Sabbath. Just read the scathing and powerful words by Jesus as he DEFENDS his reformed, NC Sabbath.
How can anyone searching the scriptures to find the truth about the Sabbath, overlook this great chapter where Jesus defends his NC view of the Sabbath, making great claims for it, himself, Moses, and God?
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Few understand that these words of Jesus were spoken in the context of defending his Reformed Sabbath. And so too are many of the most profound sayings of Jesus. Thus Eternal Life is for those who believe and embrace what Christ teaches about the Sabbath. It is not for those who reject and refuse to believe.
As this great Sabbath debate continues, Jesus turns toward those who reject his Gospel view of the Sabbath, condemning them for their unbelief.
Here is where he utters the famous words about the Jews searching the scriptures in vein; refuse to accept Christ and his NC doctrine of the Sabbath.
John 5:37 “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
Most Jews would not let go of their OC Sabbath views, much less embrace what Christ was teaching about the 7th day. Jesus lets them know that Eternal Life is only for those who accept what he teaches about the Sabbath. Thus the Gospel Sabbath brought division and debate in the 1st century and so it will again whenever the genuine Gospel is preached.
Those Jews that did follow Christ in the 1st century, also adopted and embraced what he taught about the 7th day Sabbath. This is the context of this passage. And they did. Which is why you will never see the apostles or the church embracing the OC Sabbath. It’s because it was abolished in the church. But not the active, NC Sabbath of Christ. They all knew about this new doctrine and thus they embraced the 7th day as the Lord’s Day.
So what does it mean to “come to Jesus” in this passage (v 40)?
Answer: It means to embrace Jesus’ active and reformed, NC doctrine of the 7th day. This is EXACTLY what the context of Jesus words meant in the 1st century, and it also the same meaning today. John 5 is all about the Reformed Sabbath of Christ.
Jesus teaches that those who “come to Christ” for Eternal Life, must embrace what he teaches in all things, including the Sabbath. He also teaches that to reject Christ is to reject God, as well as Moses.
John 5:43 “I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
John 5:44 “How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
John 5:45 “Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
John 5:46 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
John 5:47 “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
Here Jesus complains that the Jews are not respecting him. He makes the point that those with less authority then himself are embraced, while his views are ignored.
This is exactly what many do today. Instead of quoting Jesus about the Sabbath, they will quote Paul, or Ellen White, or Zaspel, all manner of people instead of Christ. This is absurd and Jesus makes his protest clear to those who dare read what he teaches about the Sabbath.
Jesus also makes the point that even though he is changing the Sabbath law, Moses would understand and approve. He also accused the Jews of misunderstanding the OT scripture and rejecting his words. This also takes place with many today.
Jesus teaches that anyone who rejects the NC Sabbath of Christ, for any reason, has rejected Christ and his Gospel. No Eternal Life.
This is exactly what the Jews did. They hated what Christ taught about the 7th day; it was the primary reason why they sent him to the cross. Thus they deemed themselves unworthy of Eternal Life and even of having their own County.
Today, no denomination has a correct view of Christ or his 7th day Gospel Sabbath. Including the SDA’s, who have embraced the same view as the Gospel hating Jews. So why are they so smug?
NCT is not much better. Their view of the Sabbath is impossible and absurd. It is based on fable, fiction, and deceit, even as they have to pretend that Jesus failed to articulate a doctrine of the Sabbath in the Gospels. Such ignorant blasphemy is self-condemned, and so too any foolish enough to buy into this modern day Gnosticism.
In conclusion, all that want to understand the truth about the NC Sabbath, must go to Christ in the Gospels and learn from him.
Eternal Life is only for those who find the genuine Christ and follow him. It is not for those who follow a false Christ of their own imagination.
Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom said:
How can anyone searching the scriptures to find the truth about the Sabbath, overlook this great chapter where Jesus defends his NC view of the Sabbath, making great claims for it, himself, Moses, and God?
Show your texts you are referring to here.
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Bob, I am getting confused about which thread to post. Why don’t you complete your presentation on the other thread and let me know when you get to the point.
Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1180
Bob 2 said: Show your texts you are referring to here.
Tom said: Bob, I think this discussion is way over your head. Why not reach out to someone else to help you.
Bob 2 said: Tom, because he aggravated the Jewish leaders about the Sabbath and Jesus reclaiming it to the purpose for which it was given in the OT/OC is not to say He declared the Sabbath to be a New Covenant permanent doctrine.
Tom said: You are assuming facts not in evidence, and thus reaching a wrong conclusion.
Who said that Jesus was “reclaiming” the OC Sabbath of the Jews”? Where do you get this fiction? Not from the Gospels or the rest of the NT. This is not what Jesus was doing.
Jesus was reforming the OC Sabbath doctrine to conform to the Gospel.
As the Creator of the original Sabbath, he was also bringing this ancient doctrine back to what it had been before Judaism was created. The first Sabbath was not a Jewish doctrine, nor did it prohibit work. This is SDA fiction.
In the Gospels, Jesus is teaching a new and amazing doctrine of the Sabbath for the church; a NC Sabbath.
What Jesus teaches is an active, 7th day, Lord’s Day for the Church. He does not teach a resting, holy, Sabbath, but the opposite.
Jesus created a special 7th day doctrine, by his own authority, and example for the church. He does not teach what the SDA’s or the Sunday keepers have claimed all these years.
Misunderstand the Sabbath and you will misunderstand the Gospel. NCT misunderstands both. It has added more false doctrine and error to the debate. But it has also pushed the discussion forward, even if its proposed solution is absurd.
This is the how truth is often discovered, when every variation of error has been embraced with little good results, and error is piled high on top of error; truth emerges and overturns phony religion.
Jesus’ Gospel teaching, which FEATURED his active, guilt free Sabbath, overturned thousands of years of valid Jewish doctrine. No wonder the Jews were angry and confused. He was doing away with the Levites and Tithe, with everyone being considered equal, - even women and Gentiles!
Jesus’ Gospel, with this impossible new Sabbath doctrine, seemed absurd blasphemy to the law based Jews. This is why they sent Christ to the cross.
Unless you understand what Jesus was really teaching about the NC Sabbath, you will not understand the Gospel; much less obtain Eternal Life. They are linked.
The Gospel Sabbath is critical for any Christian to understand. In fact, if it is not comprehend correctly, the result will be blind Christians, as condemned in Rev 3: 14 by Christ.
Jesus Gospel Sabbath was a paradigm changing doctrine, which infuriated the Jews. Jesus NC Sabbath was a lightening rod for his radical NC teachings that greatly angered their leaders.
Jesus new view of the 7th day was shocking because it placed people above the law, as well as above their religious leaders, who were now supposed to serve others instead of themselves.
The Jews rejected such Gospel concepts, including the Priesthood of all Believers, upon which his NC
Sabbath is based.
If you want to understand the NC Sabbath of Christ, you must stick to the details of the Gospel Record.
You must stop inserting fiction and false assumptions into the Gospel Story and go directly to Christ in the Gospels and learn from him.
Until you repent of NCT and go directly to Christ in the Gospels, you will never understand the Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
In other words, you must choose between Christ and his Sabbath or Zaspel and his Gnostic views. You can’t embrace them both; pick one and own the consequences.
Bob 2 said: He had to keep the Law (10 Commandments) perfectly to be our Savior.
Tom said: Here you go again; making up rules for Christ to follow. Who are you to tell Christ what to do?
Your claim that “Christ had to keep” the 4th Commandment of the Jews is not true. This is your own personal opinion, which is wrong. Stop with the false assumptions.
Jesus was on a mission to preach the Gospel and set up the NC Church. He was not on any mission to obey the OC law, much less protect the Leviticial / Temple system that had been in operation for so long and was now going to be cursed.
Jesus had a long view of the Sabbath. He was there at the creation of the world, when the first 7th day Sabbath was made (by him).
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
This first Sabbath was not the OC variety, where it was sinful to work. No. No. That is just SDA nonsense. There was no such doctrine as the OC Sabbath at that time. The OC Law, including the 4th commandment, started over 400 years after Abraham.
The First Sabbath
The first, full day for mankind was the Sabbath. -The NC version, not the OC. Adam and Eve’s first Sabbath was full of activity, learning, and praise to God. They were not Jewish, nor were they under the 4th Commandment law, which was many years in the future.
So the man and the woman were free to light a fire, cook food, explore, harvest food, travel, etc. etc. Just like the NC Sabbath that Christ teaches. They were innocent and free, with no possibility of breaking the Sabbath law that had not yet been given.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Jesus basic view of the Sabbath is not shaped only by Judaism, but by an earlier view of the 7th day, before there was an OC or a Jew. Back when all was perfect and there was no guilt or sin or OC law.
Jesus Reformed Sabbath reflects back to this time of innocence, where the law was subordinate to Christ, the Creator and Lord of the original Sabbath.
In addition to the Creation association, Jesus uses the Priestly Sabbath of the Levites as the theological basis for the NC Sabbath.
So Jesus, the theologian, is very careful and deliberate about what he is teaching about the Sabbath and why.
Jesus knew from the beginning of his ministry, that he was the High Priest of God. As such, he had a Priestly exemption that allows him to work on the Sabbath, just as the Levites enjoyed. Moreover, he extends this exemption to all that follow him because they too are priests of God, both men and women.
Jesus knows what he is doing about the Sabbath and all other doctrines. Everyone must learn the NC Sabbath directly from Christ, not from the legalistic SDA’s or the confused NCT crowd, or the Sunday keepers who are also in a great fog.
Bob 2 said: As the Advocate and Savior of the NT/NC you can not point to a NT/NC doctrine that shows this.
Tom replied: Anyone that claims Jesus did not teach a clear and articulated doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, has either never read the Gospels, or if they have, they are blind, unable to comprehend the Gospel teachings of Christ.
Sorry Bob, but NCT cannot be credibly defended. I know it sounded good to the ears of the weary SDA Pilgrims. But alas, it has turned out to be false doctrine built on sand.
But cheer up! Thanks primarily to Dr. Ford; the correct doctrine of the 7th day has finally emerged for all to see. While Dr. Ford correctly repudiated the IJ, he insisted there is a 7th day, Gospel Sabbath for the church. He has never backed down from this correct position.
When many SDA’s, like Dale Ratzleff and Richard Fredericks, embraced NCT, with its’ Every Day, No Day, let’s meet on Sunday, Lord’s Day; -- Dr, Ford said NO.
DR. Ford still rejects NCT as false and impossible theology. He knows that there is a 7th day, NC Sabbath doctrine for the church and it is not what the SDA’s teach or what NCT or the Sunday keepers practice.
Dr. Ford is a world-class theologian, an honest, well-published, Protestant scholar; an Adventist Martyr for the Gospel.
Remember, he is also the man that single handedly exposed and destroyed the error of the IJ within Adventism.
Let all understand 21st century eschatology: Sabbath Reform, which was the goal of the 3rd Angels Message, has now been completed, at least from a theological perspective. The Reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ has been hiding in plain site all these years. How could so many miss it?
Now it is online for all to see. It is very new and very different, I admit. But it is what it is.
Had it not been for Dr. Ford, it would still have been misunderstood and dormant. But not any more.
The SDA’s were correct to teach that the Sunday Sabbath was false doctrine, and that the final Gospel view of the Sabbath would feature the 7th day. On these two points they were correct. Too bad they failed to understand the Gospel and exiled their best scholar, who understood the Sabbath better then all others.
Bob posted Tom, who said: While you will never find Jesus teaching an OC version of the Sabbath, he did teach a very different and Reformed, NC Sabbath doctrine. This cannot be denied, but yet, this is what you are still trying to do. Shame on you.
Bob 2 then said: Tom, are you suggesting that Jesus as our Savior could and did change the tenets of the very law that He had to keep to save us?
Tom said: Jesus is a NC savior, not an OC one. He did not come to earth to obey or save OC Judaism. While Jesus validated his NC view of the Sabbath and became its’ protector, he also showed his power over the law to give all that follow him a priestly exemption that allowed then to break the 4th commandment and not be guilty of sin.
Jesus was not doing away with the congregational nature of the Sabbath or the Creation Story. The church could have Sabbath services and still work, play, cook, and travel on the 7th day. Christ removes the Sabbath training wheels, and now the day is one of Gospel Freedom and innocence.
Jesus Reformed NC Sabbath is the opposite of legalism; while it still acknowledges the 7th day Sabbath as the special weekly day for fellowship and praise, it ignores the law against work by the specific authority and teaching of Christ.
The NC Sabbath says; you are free from the law of the 4th commandment. All are free to work on the 7th day and not be guilty of sin, even though they are technically breaking the law.
The Jews could not comprehend this kind of Sabbath and neither can the SDA’s. Which is why the SDA’s will not understand it and think it is false doctrine. While they loved to debate the IJ, none dare debate the Gospel Sabbath. Why is that?
The Sabbath is the greatest SDA doctrine. But yet, they have it as wrong as the Jews, and for the same reasons. They are legalists. They love the law more than Christ, who they do not know at all.
Bob 2 said: The minutia that the Pharisees had gotten into was ripe to be tackled by Jesus.
Tom said: You understand the mission of Christ. He did not come to earth to get into debates about the law. He was not trying to reform the Pharisees. He only dealt with them because they tried to block his Gospel agenda, which included his new doctrine of the Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: I don't think by saying it is OK to do good things on the Sabbath day was a major reform of the logic of why it was given and how it had adjusted or must adjust to be relevant.
Tom said: First, it is a mistake to think that Jesus did not make a very big deal out of the Sabbath. He did. It was no “minor” point to him, as you claim. From the very beginning of his ministry, he taught a reformed and very controversial doctrine of the Sabbath. This is self-evident from the Gospels.
Second, Dr. Ford has written a lot about the Sabbath and he does not agree with your self-serving assessment and neither do I. You are just repeating the errors of NCT, without knowing what you are saying. You are not qualified to make such observations because you are not familiar with the Sabbath teachings of Christ. You don’t know the material. Dr. Ford does.
Third, Jesus would never do bad things on any day. So don’t let the word “good” confuse you. It was against the law to do any work on the Sabbath, much less healing or moving furniture, lighting fires, or cooking, etc.
Jesus was removing all these OC restrictions. This is the point. From no work on pain of death, to…Work is fine on the 7th day.
This was MAJOR REFORM, so much so that it was the reason why Jesus was sent to the cross.
Jesus Sabbath Reforms and debates cover scores of chapters in all four Gospels. This teaching is prominently featured even as the Gospel Record shows that Jesus’ NC Sabbath was presented at the very beginning of his ministry and all during, over and over, to make sure we could not miss the 7th day, NC Lord’s day. But yet…
Bob 2 said: There is so much silence on the keeping of the Sabbath in the NT/NC, yet rather than mirror the amount of time spent on the Sabbath issue, you make it your "cause celebre".
Tom said: Wow! First off, you are very wrong. The Gospels are not “silent” about Jesus Sabbath views. How could you make such an obviously false statement?
Answer: Because this is the answer you want to hear. NCT is based on the false assumption that Jesus teaches no doctrine of the Sabbath for the church. Such a position is anti-Christ blasphemy.
**Wolf Alert**
Just because the NCT crowd wants to pretend Jesus had nothing relevant to say about the Sabbath, that does not make it so. All one has to do is read the many Gospel passages where Jesus is teaching and debating about the Sabbath.
No one should claim that the Gospels are “silent” about the Sabbath. Such a false reading of the NT is out of bounds. This is not an honest or competent position, and it shows, among other things, that you are determined to remain blind to the Gospel facts.
I get it. This is how the Jews also reacted to the NC Sabbath. But Jesus let them know that they were blind. He knew they did not want to see; much less embrace, his Reformed Sabbath, and they never would…just like you.
Furthermore, it is Jesus who made the Sabbath such a prominent part of his Gospel ministry. He is the one who claimed to be the Lord and Protector of the NC Sabbath doctrine. He is the one who pushed it forward at every opportunity. So blame him if you want.
As for Adventist Reform, it is focused on correcting many doctrines, the Sabbath being but one of many. However, if you can’t understand what Christ teaches about the Sabbath, then you cannot understand the Gospel, much less anything else. So I suggest that you try harder to understand what Christ teaches about the Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: It was one of the major signs that Israel was God's people. Not the same for the New Covenant.
Tom said: While the Sabbath was holy in the OC, not so in the NC. Rather, Jesus is holy. Not a day. Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath is holy, but not the 7th day.
Jesus is the greatest of all signs. God has spoken directly to mankind through Christ, who also created the World and the Sabbath. We need to listen, not repudiate and deny what he teaches.
Heb. 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
Heb. 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Bob 2 said: Baptism and communion were the new symbols.
Tom replied: So too was the NC Sabbath. There were three new Gospel symbols, not two. The Sabbath doctrine caused more controversy than any of the others combined.
Jesus spoke more about his Reformed Sabbath than most all other doctrines. It was his favorite. That is why he was sent to the cross.
So there were three new Gospel symbols for the Church. Out of all of them, the Sabbath is the most practical as it is a weekly, congregational necessity for the church to meet.
The NC Sabbath is the Lord’s special day in the NT. Deal with it or deny Christ. Your life, your choice.
Bob 2 asked: It is OK for any church to worship on the Sabbath, but to make it a salvific issue or doctrine is straining the NT/NC words, if not fabricating from thin air.
Tom said: It is only OK to follow what Christ teaches. Period.
No one has any authority to make up new doctrines for the church. So the church can meet every Tuesday until the end of time, but yet, such a practice will not change the fact that Jesus teaches a 7th day Sabbath for the church.
Why? Because he created the world and made the first Sabbath. He is not ashamed of this fact, nor is there any reason to “abolish” the Sabbath, which is a memorial to his creation.
Jesus made it clear that those who follow him for Eternal Life must embrace his active and controversial 7th day Reformed Sabbath. His words have not changed. He is still the Creator of the world, and one who invented the Sabbath doctrine. To forget such things is to deny Christ.
Jesus declared his new Sabbath doctrine salvific. He told the Jews that if they rejected what he was teaching about the Sabbath, then they were rejecting the Gospel and would not receive Eternal Life.
But the Jews had another view of the Sabbath that they thought salvific. So most would not believe Christ or embrace his strange view of a working Sabbath.
In conclusion, it is impossible to defend NCT. The more you post, the larger hole you dig for yourself on various threads. Why not take a breath and review what has been posted? Your position is hopeless and impossible.
But there is good news; the NC Sabbath has been discovered, just before the SDA’s self-destruct. The completion of Sabbath Reform is here for all to see. It has been in the Gospels all along, and is coming to light as planned.
Luke 12:2 “But there is nothing covered up that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.
This idea that Jesus is silent on the Sabbath is absurd, and so too this idea that there is no Sabbath for the Church. One would have to be blind to think such things. It is time for those who claim to follow Christ to do so and stop pretending.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Jesus has declared the last church to be very wrong about the Sabbath and everything else. He knows that every denomination in the world is full of false doctrine and corruption. Which is why not one of them has a correct view of the NC Sabbath.
It is time for all to take Christ more seriously and repent.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom said:
Bob 2 said: He had to keep the Law (10 Commandments) perfectly to be our Savior.
Tom said: Here you go again; making up rules for Christ to follow. Who are you to tell Christ what to do?
Tom is there something faulty in the fourth Commandment?? Is it not true that our Savior had to be sin free to be able to forgive our sins. As Lord of the Sabbath, I am not talking of what he could do with it after perfectly keeping the Mosaic Law. That the point being made by New Covenant Theology, that there is a new law to direct the behaviors of Christians, if you read my points, here is a definition of Christ's Law:
Tom Wells puts forth what "Christ's Law" is :
Let me suggest its parameters.
First, it consists of the commands of the Lord Jesus himself as he gave them in his public ministry and as they are informed by his own example.
Second, it consists of the demands laid upon believers in the NT, the New Covenant document. These two are basic, and both are subject to the further illumination of the Holy Spirit who has been given in greater measure, in part, for this very purpose.
Finally, as a personal and secondary suggestion, I would add the re-examination of the OT with the idea in mind of finding those things that are moral laws in the light of the NT and that are in keeping with the explicit demands of the Lord Jesus Christ in the NT. One field in which this might be pursued is the book of Proverbs. In these, it seems to me we have the Law of Christ.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-27-13 10:37 pm)
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Tom said:
Jesus was on a mission to preach the Gospel and set up the NC Church. He was not on any mission to obey the OC law, much less protect the Leviticial / Temple system that had been in operation for so long and was now going to be cursed.
So Jesus did not have to live a sinless life, the temptations that Satan put before him were of no consequence??
Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.
This is not what every Christian looks to for his salvation, a Savior who did not sin?
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Tom, you are amazing!! With request after request you offer no verses where Christ commands believers, members of His Kingdom to keep the Sabbath as He has reformed it. He fulfilled it and gave rest to the believer, that is forgiveness of sin. Where you have picked up your esoteric ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_knowledge ) ideas I can not trace.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-28-13 5:20 pm)
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Thanks for having these discussions here. My thread is for my ongoing book review. I will not be goaded into jumping ahead to subjects you are more interested in. If you read the points I believe even you could learn something.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-27-13 10:47 pm)
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Bob, you are not being responsive to the points being made. But then again, how can you respond when you are so wrong about so much? I understand.
Bob 2 asked: Tom is there something faulty in the fourth Commandment??
Tom replied: Yes, yes, and yes. The entire OC was “faulty,” which is why it had to be updated, revised, and changed into the NC by Christ. This is Basic Covenants 101:
Heb. 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
Heb. 8:8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
Heb. 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
There is plenty of fault with the OC. Which is why it was only temporary. It was designed to grow old and be replaced with something much better in the 1st century.
Bob2 asked: Is it not true that our Savior had to be sin free to be able to forgive our sins.
Tom said: Jesus was sinless, even as he had the power to forgive sin. But this does not mean he had to follow the OC rules, like not working on the Sabbath or embrace other long held Jewish traditions, like hand washing.
In fact, Jesus knew the time of the OC was over, thus he broke both OC law and tradition as part of his necessary change to the NC. He did it on purpose to make a point.
If you don’t like what Jesus did or taught about the Sabbath, then pretend he is a sinner and lawbreaker, powered by Satan to do great miracles. This is how the Jews viewed Christ, which is why they killed him. They refused to believe in Jesus or his Reformed Sabbath.
The Jews had such a tight script for their Messiah to follow that when he came, they did not recognize him. They made up too many rules for him to follow, including that he would be a great worrier and defeat Rome.
John 1:9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
John 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
The Jews had no idea that Christ was going to change their Sabbath law and their entire religious system as well. This is why they rejected him. But for those that embraced his Gospel teachings, which include his Reformed Sabbath, they would become “children of God” through the NC.
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
To “receive Christ” is to embrace what he teaches about the Sabbath. It does not mean to be ashamed of what he teaches. He is the Word of God made flesh. To reject what he teaches is to reject the truth about God.
Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Bob 2 said: As Lord of the Sabbath, I am not talking of what he could do with it after perfectly keeping the Mosaic Law.
Tom said: Who said Jesus had to keep the OC laws of Moses?
Answer: The Jews! They are the ones who accused Jesus of breaking the law. Why are you taking the side of the faithless Jews?
When confronted with Sabbath breaking, Jesus did not deny it; rather, he said that someone of his position and authority was above the law and thus not guilty. Just like the Levites. They had an exemption from the 4th commandment and so too did Christ, and so too those who follow him today.
Matt. 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.
Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
Matt. 12:3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions,
Matt. 12:4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?
Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
Matt. 12:7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Bob 2 said: That the point being made by New Covenant Theology, that there is a new law to direct the behaviors of Christians, if you read my points, here is a definition of Christ's Law:
Tom said: The point of NCT is to remove the weekly Sabbath from the church; replacing it with an Every Day spiritual Sabbath that Christ never taught. Then they meet every Sunday. The point of NCT is awful. While it does have some good points, it is really false doctrine and error. Sorry.
The law of Christ, or the teachings and sayings of Christ, includes what he teaches about the Sabbath. Jesus taught so much about the Sabbath in the four Gospels that it would be impossible for anyone to claim he omitted it, but yet, this is what NCT teaches. Which is why it is so dishonest and dangerous. It misrepresents the Gospel Story.
Those who pretend that Christ has taught the church nothing about the Sabbath are self-condemned. Those who claim they must run to Paul to understand the Sabbath are very confused and lost. They don’t know Christ or the Gospel, or Paul.
Bob said: So Jesus did not have to live a sinless life; the temptations that Satan put before him were of no consequence??
Tom replied: Jesus lived a sinless life. The temptations of Satan were meant to tempt Jesus to worship Satan and use his creative power for himself and to doubt his own mission.
Even Satan knew that it was not sinful for Jesus to work on the Sabbath, which is why he did not try such a temptation. For Christ to sin, he had to doubt himself, his mission, and God. It would be no sin for him to work on the 7th day for a number of reasons. So there was no such temptation.
But to worship Satan would be a grave sin against the original Sabbath doctrine, where only God the Creator can be worshipped. Satan did not create the world. Thus he is owed no worship from anyone, much less the Son of God, the genuine co-creator of the world.
Jesus passed the test. He did not worship Satan, nor did he denounce his loyalty to God.
Luke 4:12 And Jesus answered and said to him, “It is said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.’”
Luke 4:13 When the devil had finished every temptation, he left Him until an opportune time.
Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about Him spread through all the surrounding district.
Luke 4:15 And He began teaching in their synagogues and was praised by all.
Bob 2 said: Tom, you are amazing!! With request after request you offer no verses where Christ commands believers, members of His Kingdom to keep the Sabbath as He has reformed it. He fulfilled it and gave rest to the believer, that is forgiveness of sin.
Tom said: First off, Jesus did not “fulfill the Sabbath” in any form or fashion. While you can repeat this myth over and over, it will never become fact. So why not stop trying to force the Gospel Story to fit your errors?
Secondly, you must be having problems with your eyes. Your claim that Christ does not teach a 7th day Sabbath doctrine for his followers is absurd. Why close your eyes to the Gospel facts? Why be like the Jews or the SDA’s?
Why pretend Jesus does not teach what he clearly does? Very strange. You must be following a different Christ from the one I have found in the scriptures. Good luck with this false shepherd who is leading you over a cliff.
Bob 2 said: Thanks for having these discussions here. My thread is for my ongoing book review. I will not be goaded into jumping ahead to subjects you are more interested in. If you read the points I believe even you could learn something.
Tom said: Let me know when you get to the point. All this posturing and explaining is nothing more then a delay of the inevitable demise of NCT. It is horrible doctrine that cannot be defended, which is why you are fearful to come right out and say what they are teaching. This book was written more like propaganda and double-talk, all trying to convince the reader that false doctrine is true.
While it is clear that you are obsessed with NCT, that is your mistake, not mine. Why have you allowed yourself to be so deluded again? Remember, you did this your whole life with SDA theology? You believed in the IJ and the OC Sabbath of Moses, and tithe, etc. But you were wrong. And now you are wrong again. What is the point of leaving one set of errors, - only to embrace another group that is also full of false doctrine, hypocrisy, and double-talk?
If the only choice I had was between SDA theology and NCT, I would become an agnostic. False theology, regardless where it comes from, is worthless. Why pretend? If one cannot understand the genuine Christ, then what is the point?
Those today that want Eternal Life must seek hard to find it. Why? Because error is all around. Christ has already condemned every church in Laodicea as having a false and worthless view of the Gospel, which includes the doctrine of the Sabbath. All professed Christians have been condemned.
It is time for all to get serious about the Gospel and stop playing games with the Word. NCT is a failed attempt to find truth. But regardless, they have pushed the search for truth forward, and for that we should be thankful.
But there is more truth to be uncovered and understood about the NC Sabbath. NCT does not have the answer. But Adventist Reform does.
Rejoice, because the genuine Gospel Sabbath has been discovered for all to see. A new doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath has emerged in the 21st century. It has been in the NT from the very beginning of the church.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for the NC Sabbath of Christ
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Tom said:
The point of NCT is to remove the weekly Sabbath from the church; replacing it with an Every Day spiritual Sabbath that Christ never taught. Then they meet every Sunday. The point of NCT is awful. While it does have some good points, it is really false doctrine and error. Sorry.
Tom said: The point of NCT is to remove the weekly Sabbath from the church; replacing it with an Every Day spiritual Sabbath that Christ never taught.
A. Your first sentence is you reading God's mind, impossible. Jesus came to usher in His Kingdom, which would have standards for it's believers. As far as the Sabbath, it was fulfilled by Jesus . Col 2: 16-17 The Reality in his Kingdom He will have a Savior that fulfilled a Sabbath that gave physical rest, but Jesus calls all to Him for Rest, Forgiveness. Tom, do you believe that.
A. No day is commanded in the NT/NC to "keep".
A. The remainder, every one has the right to his own opinion. Being saved from your sins is not awful. Sorry you feel that way, because the NCT shows how Jesus saves us from our sins and has nothing to do with a day other than meeting with His believers when they agree to.
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Tom said: The point of NCT is to remove the weekly Sabbath from the church; replacing it with an Every Day spiritual Sabbath that Christ never taught.
Bob replied: A. Your first sentence is you reading God's mind, impossible.
Tom said: Wrong. I am not surmising what anyone thinks, but about what Zaspel and Wells have WRITTEN.
So my conclusions about NCT are based on what has been presented in writing by its authors, including some interviews. The fact you are not clear on what they are saying is very strange.
Bob 2 said: Jesus came to usher in His Kingdom, which would have standards for it's believers.
Tom replied: Of course there are standards in the NC. Who said otherwise?
What Jesus teaches must be followed and practiced by those who claim to believe in him. He sets the standards and explains proper thinking and behavior. This includes what he teaches about his active and reformed 7th day Sabbath.
Whatever he teaches about this doctrine is what the church must follow. Period!
Bob 2 said: As far as the Sabbath, it was fulfilled by Jesus. Col 2: 16-17
Tom said: Wrong. This is pure myth and fiction. You can repeat this outrageous error all you want, but it will not change the facts. Jesus never made such a point, nor did he, or his apostles, ever declare Christ to be the fulfillment of the Sabbath. There is no such doctrine in either the OC or the NC. Sorry.
Jesus declared himself to be the defender and protector of the original Sabbath doctrine (from Creation). Then he reformed it into an active NC doctrine for the church that outraged the OC minded Jews.
Misunderstand what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath and you will misunderstand the Gospel. Mission accomplished for you. Unless you can become honest with the Gospel Story and stop inserting false views from NCT, you will never be able to grasp the genuine Gospel of Christ.
Bob 2 said: The Reality in his Kingdom He will have a Savior that fulfilled a Sabbath that gave physical rest, but Jesus calls all to Him for Rest, Forgiveness.
Tom said: NCT is built on the fabrication that “Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath.” But this is false. There is no such doctrine in the Gospels, nor did Jesus ever teach such a point.
Those who keep promoting this myth are on dangerous ground because what they are saying is anti-Gospel and anti-Christ. The NT does not teach such a point.
Bob 2 asked: Tom, do you believe that?
Tom said: No. I do not believe that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath. Rather, I believe what the NT teaches; that Jesus created the first Sabbath, along with the entire world. When he came to earth, he took special care and ownership of the Sabbath, reforming it for the church.
Jesus did not teach a Sunday Sabbath or Lord’s Day, or a non-working, holy, 7th day Sabbath, as the OC Jews (and SDA’s) practice. Nor did he teach this Every Day spiritual Sabbath that is featured by NCT. He only teaches an active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath as the Lord’s Day. This is the Gospel Sabbath and the true Lord’s Day. Deny it at the risk of your own eternal life.
Bob 2 said; A. No day is commanded in the NT/NC to "keep".
Tom replied: What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath is what the church must follow. It’s a very simple point that cannot be denied.
So the real question is this: what does Jesus teach about the Sabbath?
Bob 2 said: The remainder, every one has the right to his own opinion.
Tom said: The Gospel is not left to our own opinions. Doctrine is not based upon how we feel or what we think. What Jesus teaches is what we must embrace and believe. Period.
This goes for every doctrine, not just the Sabbath. But because Jesus spoke so much about the Sabbath and made it such a large part of his Gospel ministry, how can anyone not understand what he teaches on this point?
Only a very spiritually blind person could read the Gospels and think Jesus failed to fully articulate a 7th day NC Sabbath for the Church.
I repeat, when it comes to doctrine, our opinions are of no account. Only what Jesus teaches is Gospel doctrine. His opinion counts, but not ours. Are opinions have no bearing on the definition of doctrine. Sorry.
Bob 2 said: Being saved from your sins is not awful. Sorry you feel that way, because the NCT shows how Jesus saves us from our sins and has nothing to do with a day other than meeting with His believers when they agree to.
Tom replied: Anyone today who refuses to embrace what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, or anything else, will not be forgiven their sins. To be “ashamed” of what Christ teaches is to forfeit Eternal Life. The fact you don’t understand this point is troubling.
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Why are you “ashamed” of Jesus’ Reformed, 7th day Sabbath? It is an amazing doctrine of Gospel Freedom and truth. Jesus claims that his Reformed Sabbath was from God? Why do you not believe him? Are you a Jew?
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
John 7:16 “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
Those who turn their backs on the Gospel Sabbath, are acting just like the faithless Jews that rejected the Gospel. They are turning from God and his Son. NCT is guilty of doing just that. Why have you embraced such utter nonsense and false doctrine?
It is time for those in the Adventist Community to wake up and understand the Gospel.
It is time for all to better understand the NC, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. Here is the final and correct doctrine of the Sabbath for the church. Here is “new” Gospel doctrine for the blind and wretched Laodicean Church.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for the NC Sabbath of Christ
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Tom, there is no such thing as a Reformed Gospel Sabbath. Find where it is commanded and show us all.
1. When asked which is the greatest commandment of all, he did not mention the 4th Commandment, and it's "halo". When he spoke with the Samaritan woman, Christ spoke of where worship would take place in the future, but a day was not specified.
2. Your simple statement that Reformed means that the Christian can work. '
3. You have made an idol out of your day of worship and corrupted your Gospel evangelism by insisting that any new convert accept the Sabbath before Baptism of the convert.
4. The world turns, and if everyone took off Saturday, our world would not function. Those that know when society is at it's weakest would take advantage of that time.
5. Tom you have been unable to quote verse and chapter in the NT where Jesus or the Early Church commanded Sabbath keeping. Supply the verse, and I might have to chang my position. Put up or Shut up. I don't mean that as crass as it comes across, but you haven't produced what has been asked of you.
Last edited by bob_2 (08-30-13 3:51 am)
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Bob 2 said: Tom, there is no such thing as a Reformed Gospel Sabbath. Find where it is commanded and show us all.
Tom said: Those who deny what Jesus so clearly teaches in the Gospels, -are in the dark. They are spiritually blind, just like the Jews who also denied Christ’s Reformed, 7th day Gospel Sabbath.
2Tim. 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
Do you see the type of company you keep? You are on the side of those who rejected the Gospel and killed Christ.
Are you sure this is where you want to be? There is no Eternal Life for those who repudiate or deny what Jesus teaches. Do you understand this theological point? Are you prepared to lose out on salvation because of NCT?
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
While Jesus teaches many, many points about the Sabbath, here are the first two you need to understand and embrace; the first is that there is a Gospel Sabbath for all mankind. And by Sabbath, Jesus means the 7th day. He does not mean Sunday, or No Day, or Every Day of the week. So here is where to begin your study.
#1) Jesus teaches a 7th day Sabbath doctrine in the NC. He does not teach that the Sabbath was abolished or changed to Sunday. Or that is an Every Day spiritual doctrine as NCT teaches.
So there is some serious truth to what the SDA’s have been saying for so many years. Now they need to go forward and get the doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath fully correct. 50% will not work. They must get the Gospel Sabbath 100% correct or they will go down in flames, just like the Jews that they mimic.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Do you believe this? Or do you think Jesus’ Sabbath was only for the Jews? If so, you are no follower of Christ. Nor do you understand the Gospel.
#2) Jesus also teaches that he is the protector and defender of the 7th day, even a champion of the NC Sabbath doctrine. He also claims to be the one who has authority to define and articulate the Sabbath for the church.
Do you believe him?
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Do you believe these first few points that Jesus teaches about the Sabbath?
There are many other points made about the Sabbath by Christ. But if you don’t believe these first few, there is no point in going further. You are no follower of Christ.
Of course you don’t believe these points; you have embraced the utter nonsense of NCT, which claims that Jesus failed to articulate a doctrine of the Sabbath for the church. This means you are not following Christ. You are anti-Christ as well as anti Sabbath. Sad.
You have gone from one ditch, with the SDA version of the Sabbath, all the way to another ditch of false Sabbath doctrine. This is not useful, nor will it end with Eternal Life.
You need to repent now and follow the genuine Christ before it is too late for you. You have already spent much of your life following a false Christ and embracing many false, SDA doctrines.
When will you stop embracing so much error and embrace truth?
When will you follow the genuine Christ of the Gospels?
When will the SDA’s?
Bob 2 said: 1. When asked which is the greatest commandment of all, he did not mention the 4th Commandment, and it's "halo".
Tom said: First off, why do you quote Christ, as if you believe his words? You don’t believe what he says about the Sabbath, so why do you quote him at all?
Either Christ speaks truth or he does not. You can’t have it both ways.
If you want to know what Christ teaches about the Sabbath, you must go to those passages, which are many, that speak to this doctrine. Not to the passages where he teaches another point.
Secondly, it was the Jews that thought the law was the greatest thing in the world. Jesus did not share their legalistic view. Which is why he purposefully worked on the Sabbath, breaking the 4th Commandment for all to see. It was no accident, it was meant to divide the Jews and wake them up to the great change of the Gospel.
Jesus is greater than the law and the OC. He is also greater than then the Sabbath, which he invented when he made the world.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Thus the Sabbath, either the OC or NC versions, is not the greatest of all doctrines, as the SDA’s claim. The day is not even holy in the NC, nor is work to be shunned whatsoever.
In fact, Jesus teaches all who follow him have an exemption from the rules against work in the 4th Commandment. They can work on the 7th day and not be guilty. Here is a Sabbath doctrine that is virtually unknown to all Laodiceans, especially to the blind and wretched SDA’s. They are clueless about the correct 7th day Sabbath of Christ.
Let all pay attention: There is a new doctrine of the Sabbath for the last church to understand. It is only for those who want to embrace the historic Gospel and believe in the genuine Christ of the NT.
All others can make up whatever doctrines they want, as they go to hell. NCT is a good example of new doctrinal error, even as Adventist Reform represents documented truth from the Word.
Let all choose between truth and error.
Bob2 said: When he spoke with the Samaritan woman, Christ spoke of where worship would take place in the future, but a day was not specified.
Tom replied: Everyone knew that the Jews worshiped on the 7th day. So there was no debate about this, nor was the Sabbath part of the discussion with the Samaritan women, who also worshipped on the 7th day.
So your point is worthless and wrong.
If you want to know what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, you need to go to the many passages where this is the specific topic.
Why are you ignoring the many places where Jesus teaches about the Sabbath? And why are you looking at those passages that do not deal with the Sabbath? Are you being dishonest on purpose, or are you just incompetent and incapable of honestly dealing with the Gospel Story?
Why are you fearful of dealing directly with what Jesus teaches in the Gospels about the Sabbath?
Why play games with the Word? Jesus is the head theologian of the church and the self-proclaimed friend and protector of the Sabbath doctrine. I suggest that you pay careful attention to what he teaches on this point.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
All those who refuse to follow the teaching of Jesus, will be lost.
It’s a very simple “saying” and teaching of Christ.
When it comes to the Sabbath, there is no excuse for misunderstanding. Jesus has spoken so much about this doctrine in the Gospels that only a blind person could miss it.
At this point, the entire Laodicean Church has been judged to be just that, - blind, with the SDA’s being the worst case IMO. But it is clear that they don’t want to be healed or face up to their errors and repent. They pretend to see clearly when they are in the dark; just like the Jews.
Too bad, because only those who admit they are blind, and ask for healing will be healed. Those that don’t, won’t.
Mark 10:51 And answering him, Jesus said, “What do you want Me to do for you?” And the blind man said to Him, “Rabboni, I want to regain my sight!”
Adventist Reform is trying to help bring the blind and lame to Christ, so he can heal and save them. Neither Dr. Ford, nor Tom Norris are misleading the confused Adventist Community. That is what their leaders have been doing for generations, even as they deny they are blind or wrong.
Deut. 27:18 ‘Cursed is he who misleads a blind person on the road.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Bob, you are a blind man, who ran away from a Denomination of the blind. You need to admit this fact and try to find a way to get healed so you can understand the Gospel and the NC Sabbath, and receive Eternal Life.
Most of those who proclaim Christ, like the SDA’s or NCT, are blind guides, full of error; do not follow fools.
Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
Bob 2 said: 2. Your simple statement that Reformed means that the Christian can work (on the 7th day Sabbath).
Tom said: I did not invent any NC doctrine. I am just pointing out what Christ teaches over and over in the four Gospels about the Sabbath.
Jesus is the one that took ownership of the Sabbath and claimed work was now permitted on the 7th day, even as he claimed that God the Father instructed him to promote this very different, and very active, Reformed Gospel Sabbath.
It was the faithless Jews that refused to believe Christ or his Reformed and active Sabbath. They refuted and denied his Gospel Reforms, especially what he taught about the Sabbath. They called him a demon possessed lawbreaker and killed him.
Why are you following in their evil footsteps? Are you a Jew? Or do you just hate the Gospel as a Gentile?
Your denial of the Sabbath teachings of Christ, - are a denial of Christ. Do you understand this theological point? To deny what Christ clearly teaches about the Sabbath or any other point, is to deny Christ.
Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Bob 2 said: 3. You have made an idol out of your day of worship and corrupted your Gospel evangelism by insisting that any new convert accept the Sabbath before Baptism of the convert.
Tom replied: The SDA’s have made an idol out the 4th Commandment, and so too did the Jews. But Jesus came and brought a new way to view the Sabbath. Anyone that chooses to follow Christ, must embrace what he teaches about all things, including the NC Sabbath.
Anyone that thinks it is sinful to work on the 7th day, does not understand the Gospel, or what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath. (Let the SDA’s pay attention and so too the NCT fanatics).
Anyone that thinks Sunday is the Lord’s day, is following a false view of the Gospel. Not only is this the wrong day, so too is the associated idea that no work is to be done on Sunday. Which is what the Sunday “Blue Laws” were all about. Double non-sense.
The Battle Creek SDA’s were an Old Covenant paradigm fighting for 7th day obedience against an OC Sunday paradigm that embraced the same legalism. Both Sabbath doctrines are wrong. Jesus teaches neither.
Jesus only teaches an active and free, 7th day Gospel Sabbath for the church. This doctrine trumps the 4th commandment with Gospel Freedom, from the Lord of the world, and the Lord of the Sabbath.
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
To reject the Sabbath of Christ is to reject him and the Gospel. This is what the Jews did. Why are you supporting their fatal error? Why are the SDA’s?
Bob 2 said: 4. The world turns, and if everyone took off Saturday, our world would not function. Those that know when society is at it's weakest would take advantage of that time.
Tom replied: Have you lost your ability to think and reason? Why on earth would you think I am promoting a non-working Sabbath, like the SDA’s? You must know better after all this time.
Jesus teaches an ACTIVE and WORKING, 7th day Sabbath.
Jesus does not teach that anyone has to stop working on the Sabbath. That is what the Jews were saying, not Christ. How can you be so confused about this discussion?
John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
The NC Sabbath does not require anyone to “take off” on Saturday, as the confused SDA’s teach. They love to play the victim and pretend they are being persecuted for Christ and the Law when that is not at all what is taking place.
SDA Air Traffic Controller Files Charges
http://www.nrtw.org/en/free-tagging/sev … -adventist
The SDA’s are making fools of themselves as they follow the legalistic Jews that killed Christ. What they call “religious freedom” is only an excuse to practice OC legalism and a false and worthless Gospel. They do not understand the Gospel Sabbath of Christ whatsoever.
Let all understand why a Roman soldier and his family became the first Gentile Christians.
The NC Sabbath was no longer a problem for anyone working on the 7th day. While an OC Jew could not be a Roman soldier because of the OC Sabbath, this does not work for a NC Gentile or Jewish Christian. The NC Sabbath is not the same as the OC Sabbath. Work is permitted, approved, and encouraged.
John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
It is a great error to think that the OC Sabbath is all there is. This is what the SDA’s have done. But they are wrong. The NT shows that Jesus teaches a NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, which is very different from the OC Sabbath. Misunderstand this point, and you will be forever confused.
Bob 2 said: 5. Tom you have been unable to quote verse and chapter in the NT where Jesus or the Early Church commanded Sabbath keeping.
Tom said: The Gospels are full of Jesus’ NC Sabbath instruction, including debates with his enemies. There are many verses, many of which have been quoted over and over for you. But yet, you deny Christ’s words. So be it. The Jews could not understand or accept what Jesus taught about the Sabbath either.
Moreover, the church has always had a weekly Sabbath for the entire duration of its long history. Why do you think this is?
Answer: Because Jesus and the NT teach a weekly Sabbath and Lord’s Day for the church. The fact that the Gentile church embraced the wrong day, Sunday, is beside the point.
This recent idea, (1970), that there is no weekly Sabbath for the church is false. NCT is dead wrong about the Sabbath, and this point has been proven to anyone that has a brain.
NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
Bob 2 said: Supply the verse, and I might have to change my position. Put up or Shut up. I don't mean that as crass as it comes across, but you haven't produced what has been asked of you.
Tom replied: Wow! After all this discussion, you still pretend that Jesus has nothing to teach about the Sabbath? Really?
How can you read the Gospels and conclude that Jesus fails to teach a doctrine of the Sabbath? Are you also a member of the Flat Earth Society? If not, you should join.
Flat Earth Society
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society
The Flat-out Truth
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/fe-scidi.htm
Bob, your mind seems to have been ruined by so many years of false SDA doctrine. Now that you have left them, your ability to reason and comprehend the Word is still very impaired. You need help.
The final call of the Gospel in Rev 18 must include what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. The SDA’s were correct on this point, even if they have misunderstood the Gospel and the NC Sabbath.
The SDA’s need to repent and correct their many errors and move forward to proclaim the correct Gospel. And so too must all others, in every church and denomination.
Those who have been so foolish as to follow a false Christ, - will not receive Eternal Life. Only those who follow the genuine Christ of the NT will be saved.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm
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Tom, Christ declared Himself Lord of the Sabbath, and in:
Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
That is the OT and the Decalogue. SDAs try to separate the ceremonial from the moral, it is not Biblical.
2Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was,
Tom, what was Christ's Messianic Mission???
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Bob, you are not being responsive to the points raised, nor are you able to refute the many points that explain and define the genuine Sabbath of Christ.
Why don’t you just be honest with us, and yourself, and admit that you don’t believe what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath? Don’t pretend you follow Christ, when you really refute him about such an important topic as the Sabbath.
Why not admit the obvious? You don’t agree with Jesus’ view of the 7th day Sabbath. This is your choice. Believe what you want to believe.
But don’t pretend that Christ ignored the doctrine of the Sabbath and has nothing to say about it? This is clearly not true. It is an outrageous and absurd position. Christ has much to say and teach about the NC Sabbath, but few are paying attention, and many are outright denying what he teaches in the Gospels, - like all Sunday keepers and even the SDA’s who have the right day but the wrong doctrine.
Some, - like the NCT crowd, deny he teaches anything about the Sabbath, even denying there is a NC Sabbath for the church. They are a very strange and blind crowd.
Bob, you are not only ignoring what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, but you are leading others to refute his holy Gospel theology as well. You are moving away from Christ and leading others to do the same. Sad.
Luke 17:1 He said to His disciples, “It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come!
Luke 17:2 “It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble.
Bob 2 said: Tom, Christ declared Himself Lord of the Sabbath, and in: Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Tom said: First off: Stop misquoting scripture and confusing the Gospel Story to support your false doctrine.
Jesus’ declaration to defend and protect the Sabbath, as its’ Lord, is not to be associated with what Christ said in Luke 24: 44. These two texts are not associated in any way.
Rather, Luke 6:5 must be connected to Matt 12:1-8, and to Mark 2: 25-28, not to Luke 24: 44. These are parallel passages about the Sabbath that contain no hint that Jesus was fulfilling the Sabbath.
Luke 6:5 And He was saying to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Stop this awful “proof-texting” that the SDA’s taught you. One can prove anything by the indiscriminate linking of certain texts together, and this is what you are desperately trying to do. But alas, you have been caught dishonestly mishandling the Word.
Furthermore, once you found a text that suited your false theology, like Luke 24:44, you still failed to quote the proper context of that passage. Why did you only quote v 44 and ignore v 45 or 46 or 47?
Only a wolf plays such games with the Words of Christ. Those who follow Jesus cannot be so dishonest with his Words. Shame on you.
Luke 24:44 Not About Sabbath
Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, “these are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
Where does Moses and the OT teach that the Messiah was to fulfill the Sabbath? Where is this “written”? Show us where anyone in the Bible teaches that Christ is to “fulfill” the Sabbath?
Where are these passages? Where is even one?
Answer: NOWHERE! There is no such prophecy or passage, so how can there be any fulfillment? Jesus teaches no such point.
Look at the next verses, #45, 46, and 47; understand that Jesus is speaking about the fulfillment of the suffering Messiah on the cross and his resurrection. He is NOT speaking about the Sabbath whatsoever. There was no such prophecy for the Messiah to fulfill.
So rather then linking Luke 6: 5 to Luke 22: 44, which is a mistake, - Luke 22: 44 should have been linked to v 45, 46, and 47.
Those that dishonestly scramble and manipulate the Word to say what they want to hear are doomed. Such prophecy is being fulfilled today for all to see.
2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Unless you stop misreading the Scriptures, and stop placing false doctrines in the mouth of Christ, you will never be able to comprehend the Gospel or the Sabbath correctly.
NCT is built on the reckless manipulation of the Word, not Gospel facts or an honest hermeneutic. You have been very foolish to embrace their myths and try to defend their errors. You have failed.
Luke 24:45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
Luke 24:46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,
Luke 24:47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Luke 24:48 “You are witnesses of these things.
The Sabbath is not mentioned; nor is there any hint that Jesus was supposed to fulfill the 7th day, as you claim. Nor did anyone “witness” that this is what he had done. V 48.
There is no testimony from any apostolic witness that Christ fulfilled the Sabbath because it never happened. Such a doctrine is not part of the Gospel Story. It is fiction, myth, and false doctrine.
The passage of Luke 24: 44-47 clearly shows what was “fulfilled” by Christ, and it was not, not, not, the Sabbath. It was that Christ would “suffer,” “rise from the dead” and forgive sins for all nations.
There is NO such concept or doctrine, about Jesus “fulfilling” the Sabbath in either the Old or New Testaments. It is pure myth, diversion, and double-talk. Jesus never teaches such a point.
Let all run from such utter nonsense and fiction.
Bob, why do you keep trying to make Jesus and the Bible say what you want? Such reckless and dishonest behavior is anti-Christ and blasphemous. You must embrace only what Jesus teaches, not what anyone today “claims” he teaches.
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
When the church is “fully trained” about the Gospel; they will only embrace what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. That day is not yet here. The Laodicean Church is blind to both the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath. Which is why there must be Gospel Reform in every church.
So once again you have been caught deliberately misquoting the scriptures and inserting fabrications into the Gospel Story.
You have been caught inserting false doctrine into the mouth of Christ. This is what the enemies of Christ did all the time. You and the Jews have much in common. Sad.
NC Sabbath 101
All must deal with Jesus’ basic and fundamental teaching that there is a NC Sabbath for the church, and for all mankind. The fact that you, and some others, don’t want to believe this Gospel fact, is beside the point.
Jesus teaches what he does, regardless if we believe or not. Regardless if you manipulate the Word and try to make it support false doctrine.
The fact you do not believe his basic teaching about the Sabbath means you are not following the genuine Christ. You and the NCT crowd are opposed to what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath and thus you are both condemned like the Jews who also repudiated the Reformed Sabbath of Christ.
Here is what Jesus said to those who refused to believe his reformed doctrine of the Sabbath:
John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
Here is what Jesus said, before he declared himself to be the Lord of the Sabbath. It is the most basic of Sabbath teaching from Christ.
NC Sabbath 101:
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Here Jesus speaks of the original Sabbath made at Creation. He does NOT teach that it was abolished or that he had fulfilled it or was going to fulfill it. Nor does he teach that the 7th day was being changed to Sunday or that anyone should keep the 7th day free from work. Away with all this false doctrine.
Jesus teaches that there is a NC 7th day Sabbath for all mankind.
Do you believe what he says? Yes or No?
Your answer is no. You do not believe that there is a valid Sabbath for the Gentiles or the Church. This is why you have embraced NCT. This is what they are all about.
So you and Jesus are at great odds. You do not believe the first point Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, much less his many others. You have failed NC Sabbath 101.
This is the real problem. You pretend to follow Christ, but in fact, you are not even close. You repudiate Christ and do not really know what he is all about. You are following a worthless fraud of your own imagination, just like when you were a blind SDA for so many years.
Luke 6:39 And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
I suggest you find the real Jesus before it is too late for you. Only he can heal your blindness, if you ask. If not, you will remain blind and in the dark forever.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
Bob, you do not see things clearly. You are a blind man. Only by admitting your spiritual condition, can you come to the place where you can repent and ask for healing. Otherwise, you will remain both blind and condemned.
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Note that the above words from Christ were spoken in the context of the Sabbath debate. This is why they still apply today to the same Gospel debate. The NC Sabbath is a judgment doctrine, one that tests who will follow Christ and who does not.
Bob 2 said: The SDAs try to separate the ceremonial from the moral, it is not Biblical.
Tom said: Wrong. First off, it was the apostolic church that separated the Moral law from the ceremonial law. Which is why circumcision was outlawed in the early church, even though some legalistic Jewish Christians wanted it to remain as a requirement along with much of OC Judaism.
Gal. 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Gal. 5:5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
Gal. 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Paul understood that there was a separation between the ceremonial law and the Moral law, even if James and Peter promoted them as if there were none. But they soon had to repudiate this error.
Note Paul’s phrase (v5) about keeping the “whole law.” By which he means the “ceremonial” law.
Thus, some in the apostolic church were trying to live like OC Jews and observe not only the Moral law, but also the Ceremonial laws, including circumcision, which was in fact, code for the “ceremonial” law.
Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.
Gal. 2:13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.
Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
Paul knew the difference between the Moral law and the ceremonial law, and no one should think otherwise. He was a great champion of separating and removing the ceremonial laws of Judaism from the early church, even as he upheld the moral law, which he subordinated to Faith in Christ.
1Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
Few quote this text from Paul, because many think he has done away with moral law, but this is not what is taking place. So they ignore it.
Moreover, the early church Fathers also correctly distinguished and separated the moral law from the ceremonial law long before the SDA’s did the same thing. So this is very “biblical.”
It is not wrong to separate the Moral law from the Ceremonial laws of the Jews, which were not allowed in the NC. This has been done from the beginning of the Church, and so it will be forever.
Bob 2 said: Tom, what was Christ's Messianic Mission???
Tom replied: To save the world through the NC Gospel. The Gospel teaching of Christ includes what he teaches about the 7th day, Reformed Sabbath.
Anyone today who refuses to embrace what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, or anything else, will not be forgiven their sins or saved. To be “ashamed” of what Christ teaches about the Sabbath, or anything else, is to forfeit Eternal Life. The fact you don’t understand this point is fatal.
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Why are you “ashamed” of Jesus’ amazing and reformed, 7th day Sabbath? It is a wonderful doctrine of Gospel Freedom and truth.
Jesus, who created the Sabbath, claims that his Reformed Sabbath was from God? Why do you not believe him? Are you a Gospel hating Jew?
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
John 7:16 “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
Those who turn their backs on the Gospel Sabbath, are acting just like the faithless Jews that rejected Christ. They are turning away from God and his Son. NCT is guilty of doing just that. Why have you embraced such utter nonsense and false doctrine?
It is time for those in the Adventist Community to wake up; repent, and understand the genuine Gospel, which includes the reformed and active NC Sabbath of Christ.
It is time for all to better understand the 7th day Gospel Sabbath. Here is the final and correct doctrine of the Sabbath for the church.
Here is “new” doctrine for the blind and wretched Laodicean Church. It is Present Truth for the 21st century church.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for the NC Sabbath of Christ
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Tom we are making progress, when you admit the Decalogue was fulfilled in Jesus along with those things in Luke 24:44. However, you have a set back when you use Luke 6:5 to talk about continuation of the 4th Commandment. It is fulfilled. The whole paragraph in Luke is talking about authority, the Pharisees are questioning what he says is right or wrong on the original law. He has the authority to take that obsolete law whichever way he wants or to not include it at all as He declares he is Lord of the Sabbath.
What you need to answer, is what is contained in the new standards of behavior, Christ's Law.
1 Cor 9:21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.
What he says about the Sabbath is more important because it is about the rest he promises to the believer in the New and Better Covenant. See Heb 8:6 below. He declares Himself more important than the day and can take it whichever way he wants in the New Covenant of which He is the Advocate (1 John 2:1) and Mediator(Hebrews 9:15).He declares himself more important than the Temple.
Matthew 12:6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.
He redefines the word work, probably leaving the leaders confused.
John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
They were questioning His authority. He proceeds in the next verses to declare what he is saying is from God Himself:
John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
This is not a mere redo of the Old Covenant and the Decalogue contained in it. He is advancing to new standards as outlined in the Sermon on the Mount and other teachings. As He teaches more than ten commandments new standards start to "pile" up as part of "Christ's Law", the new standards of behavior. No longer is it thou shalt not murder, but don't hate your brother. He sets a new standard which is an expansion of the Old, but by that expansion it becomes new and a better promise.
The two verses in Colossians is talking about more than fulfillment of the Sabbath but the whole of the OT/OC
Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
He in the process has made better promises in the New Covenant and we find the Covenant Theologians like the SDAs, Tom Norris, and the Presbyterian Church of America hanging on to a day, they find more important than the Savior that fulfilled the Sabbath shadow by offering peace through true authentic forgiveness as the New Reality. Moses could not forgive, nor any of the leaders, such as Joshua, David and others. Jesus is trying to tell them there is an end game, and He is the judge that will end it with His standards, Christ's Law. The rest is obsolete, Heb 8:13. READ THE NEW STANDARDS GIVEN BY HIM, HIS APOSTLES AND OTHERS WRITERS HE COMMISSIONS.
Read again what is the New Reality:
Heb 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
Tom you are insisting on a shadow, the Sabbath, I am pointing to the reality, our Savior Jesus Christ. Show me where He commands the Sabbath to be kept in the New Covenant. You have not been able other than to show Jesus engages people of His time about the Sabbath which he was obliged to keep, and let not one jot or tittle of the Old Law to be diminished until all was accomplished. After that Tom, show me the command..... It is not there.
Read this passage where Paul puts an asterisk by the Gospel he was given to preach:
Eph 3:7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.
Last edited by bob_2 (09-07-13 5:56 pm)
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