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I-Miller, one big thing to remember is that Jesus was talking to those under the law. Any thing He would say to them agreed with the Torah. The New Covenant was future.
My first question was about Jesus telling the crowd that the old covenant law would stay in place until all would be accomplished (fulfilled). He didn't tell them that part of the law would at some point be fulfilled, but that the law, meaning all the law, would be fulfilled. SDAs are quick to tell us that part of the law was fulfilled at the Cross. Where do they get their information as to what was fulfilled? How come the meat eating law and the tithe law escaped being fulfilled? How come the Sabbath laws escaped being fulfilled?
My second question was in reference to 2Cor 3 where it tells us that the 10 commandments are no longer our guide. We are now guided by the Holy Spirit. The 10 have faded. Doesn't it sound like the 10 were part of the law Jesus was referring to when he declared in Matt 5 that the law would be fulfilled? If we are still under the 10 with its Sabbath command wouldn't Paul be making a mistake by telling us in 2Cor 3 that the 10 have faded?
My third question had to do with 1JN 3 where John the disciple tells us that the commands we are to obey are not the 10, but the law of love. Does this not tell you that it isn't the 10 with its Sabbath command is part of the law Jesus in Matt 5 said would be fulfilled?
My fourth question had to do with Col 2:16 where Paul explicitly tells them not to judge anyone in what they ate, drank or the holy days they observed because they were mere shadows of Jesus. Again, in reference to Matt 5:16-17 doesn't it appear that the law referenced to would include the Sabbath law since Paul expounds on it in Col 2??
It all makes sense to me so I have given up trying to "keep" a day which I tried for years to do and failed every week. Why do I now need a day to remember creation and to "keep" holy when I have the Creator to love, worship and honor and I can do that every day and every minute? I rest in Him. What more do I need?
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Bob
If you read the Sabbath command in Deuteuromyyou will see it is a sign of delivery from bondage/sin.
If it is a sign of freedom from bondage it cannot be bondage to keep it.
Sdas get hung up on the Exodus command but fail to recognise the beauty of the Sabbath command in its later versuon. And the testimony to salvation by grace
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Hi Abe, The Deuteronomy version of the 4th commandment surely throws a clinker into the SDA Sabbath issue. What many forget is the fact that that the Deut version places the Sabbath requirement for only the Israelites. Being a gentile I have no ties to my heritage coming out of bondage. I need not celebrate the issue. It was not meant for me or my family going back or forward. The Sabbath was part of a pact given to a small group of people who lived on the Earth.
Since the Cross even the Jews have no reason to celebrate a day. They have Messiah to celebrate. Jesus didn't just save them from bondage in Egypt, He saved or is willing to save them from perdition.
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Bob
While I am not defending Sabbath keeping per see ( Paul makes it clear the Sabbath keeping is optional) I do think you are missing my point. Let me explain.
The story of the Exodus is a type of the spiritual journey all of us make not necessarily a historical fact. Hence we are all sinners born into bondage and unable to free ourselves without the miraculous intervention of grace.
So while some of us do not have a history of physical bondage we all have the burden of spiritual slavery inherited from our forebears.
Now it is not necessary to "keep" the Sabbath but for those who understand and appreciate deliverance the day of ceasing from ones labours can be a beautiful testimony to salvation by grace. You are correct that Christ is our "rest" and unless you are convinced by the Spirit to make a public witness by observing the Sabbath it would be hyprocritical to do so.
The problem with the SDA emphasis on the Exodus Sabbath is that they get themselves locked into the YEC and a system of works.
I think that Jesus taught the Deut Sabbath while the Pharisees never got beyond the first step of their spiritual journey. I have a feeling that Tom Norris is really talking about the Deut Sabbath but is so beligerant and extreme that he turns people off.
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Thanks Abe, while it is true that Paul doesn't come right out and negate Sabbath observance he clearly indicates that it is not necessary for salvation. What is truth and Sabbath observers seem to over look is the fact that Christians are not under Old Covenant law. Sabbath observers somehow twist plain scripture and teach that Sabbath observance is a requirement. If one, who was at sometime an observer and then led by the Holy Spirit, no longer believes Sabbath to be a requirement that person, in the eyes of the Sabbath observers, is lost. This comes not from scripture, but from a false teaching from a false prophet.
I personally do not advocate any one day a week as special, all are special. We are free to choose any day to assemble. We are told not to forsake assembling ourselves together. I personally believe that is a command given by inspiration. Those who set aside a day for rest and reflection is commendable. I am sure they receive a blessing. There is a very developing danger in those who make Sabbath keeping a strict rule, They can and do become very legalistic in what could be a real blessing. This is especially so in those who use Ellen as their guide. As you mentioned a good example were the Pharisees. Ellen is SDAs pharisee.
As far as the Deut version and the Exodus version of the Sabbath was the remembrance. One was creation and the other Egypt. In the Deut version it makes it very clear that Sabbath was made for those delivered from bondage in Egypt. The special day was for just that group of people just as the remainder of the law was for only them. The New Covenant is unique in that it makes the law of love the center of our responsibility. Keeping days are not important because they were mere shadows of our living Christ. Again SDAs water down this fact by insisting we keep days, unclean meat laws and a modified false tithing system all taken from an abrogated law supported by the prophet.
Tom Norris fails to recognize these facts and is trying to thump nothing but a watered down version of the same old stuff the SDAs have thumped since 1844. I will commend him for recognizing that the tithing system was just for the Israelites before the destruction of the Temple. Even the Jews today don't use the system.
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Bob
The tithe,as orginally set up was for the support of those"who had no portion in Israel" the tribe of Levi first of all but also for those who had no support or way of earning a living.
The laws of Moses or at least therory behind them were very advanced for their times indeed even todays modern society could do well to reflect on them.
The SDA church has misconstrued the old laws and pick and choose what is applicable today and what isn't sometimes without any logic in the selection.
Sadly there is considerable difference between what Jesus actually taught and what passes for Christianity these days.With Jesus formal religion was a no no. What mattered was the personal relationship with God as a father figure and that all mankind were part of his family.Ritual and liturgy had no place in his concept.
Paul was a bit different and possibly more practical.
I take from your posting that you are an exSDA. Having like others studied your way out off that cult.
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Bob 1 & 2, you are not being responsive to the points that prove you wrong. You seem determined to defend NCT regardless of the obvious absurdity and futility of your position.
This is sad, but very predictable. Such an attitude is the hallmark of Laodicea. They are delusional to think their many false doctrines are true, - when they are not even close.
This is a replay of what the 1st century Jews did, proving that the Gentiles are just as wrong and lost as were the Jews that rejected and killed Christ.
So both versions of Israel, OC Judaism, and then the NC Church, have gone evil, rebelling against God and his Christ. Both have been judged “blind” and condemned, needing to repent.
Bob2 said: Tom: Jesus own disciples, up to his ascension did not understand the kingdom of God.
Tom said: Agreed. So what is your point? I never said otherwise.
In fact, Peter and James had a relapse and became legalists AFTER the cross. They repudiated the Gospel and were condemned by a former Temple prosecutor, Paul, who once had made war against the church.
There was great division within the apostolic church over the definition of the Gospel. And so too, at the end of time. But that day has not come. Why? Because the genuine doctrine of the Gospel, with its’ active and reformed 7th day Sabbath, has not become an option as yet. It is hardly understood. But it will go viral one day, and so too will the genuine Gospel of Christ.
THEN there will be a great debate between those who are serious about following Christ and those who are content with another Gospel and a false Sabbath of their own making.
The Gospels were not written prior to the ascension, or anywhere close to that date. In fact, by the time they were written, the authors had matured and repented of their errors. They did understand the Gospel.
Thus the Gospels were written with the benefit of hindsight, as well as with the Spirit. We must trust and embrace the Gospel record with our very lives, as there is no other basis to believe. There is no salvation for those that reject the Gospels and turn their backs on the authority and teaching of Christ.
John 17:18 “As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
John 17:19 “For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
John 17:20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
The Gospel authors were seasoned apostles, who had been taught by Christ. They had long ago repented of their previous errors and false doctrines. The very fact that they placed so many of their own embarrassing mistakes and sins into the record shows that they were being honest with the story, telling both the bad and the good.
The Gospels contain the Living Words of Christ. They are eternal and will never pass away. This includes what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath.
Mark 13:31 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
All that want to follow Christ and find salvation must go to Jesus in the Gospels and learn from him.
Those that do an end run around the Gospels, preferring Paul or anyone else over Christ, has made a fatal mistake. This is the great error of NCT. They have marginalized, ignored, and repudiated the Reformed Sabbath teaching of Christ. Why? So that they could misunderstand what Paul says and promote false doctrine.
Bob2 said: Look at Luke 24:44. When Peter toke a sword and cut off a soldier's ear you could tell the four Gospels did not clearly teach what is elaborated on in Paul's epistles.
Tom said: Ha! While you rail against Peter for his errors, at least he was trying to follow Christ. At this time, Paul was an avowed enemy that hated the Gospel. He was cheering the murder of Christ.
Why do you try to revise the Gospel record and pretend that Paul had an advanced knowledge of truth over Peter when that is absolutely not true? Peter was far in advance of Paul by the very fact he was following Jesus and trying to understand the Gospel.
Paul, his contemporary, took an opposite view; he was a passionate enemy of Christ, working for the Jewish leaders to destroy the teachings of Jesus and stamp out the Gospel.
Paul, by his own admission, is the worst of all the apostles. Why? Because he took malicious action against the Gospel, arresting and torturing those who professed faith in Christ. He admits this fact and accepts it. Why don’t you?
1Cor. 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
1Cor. 15:5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
1Cor. 15:6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
1Cor. 15:7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;
1Cor. 15:8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.
1Cor. 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
All NC doctrine MUST have its origin and authority in Christ. Including anything that Paul preaches, teaches, or writes. Those who run to Paul in order to avoid what Jesus teaches in the Gospels are playing a fools game. Thus “many” will lose out on Eternal Life because they refuse to repent and follow the genuine Christ of the Gospels.
Bob2 said: You fight this, Tom, and God made Paul his servant to minister to those that would want to be part of His kingdom. The disciples were so scared after the crucifixion, they hid because they were afraid of the Jews.
Tom said: This idea that Paul is superior to Christ, in any way, on any point of theology, is blasphemy. I don’t know who taught you this great error, but it will be fatal if you don’t repent and run to Christ, embracing only what he teaches, including his easy, active, and reformed, 7th day Sabbath.
Christ is the source of all Gospel doctrine; not Paul or Peter. Neither can have a different Gospel, or a different Sabbath than Christ. Anyone today who “carefully” examines his or her theology had better start with the Sabbath doctrine. If it is different from that of Christ in the Gospels, then you can be sure you have embraced “another” Gospel and a false Christ.
1Th. 5:21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
2Cor. 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you — unless indeed you fail the test?
2Cor. 13:6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.
All that have embraced a Sunday Sabbath have a false view of the Gospel. And so too those who have the correct day, like the SDA’s, but the wrong doctrine like the Pharisees.
All of Laodicea has a false Gospel and a very wrong view of the Sabbath. NCT has also failed this test. They too have embraced a false Christ instead of the genuine version of the Gospels.
While Paul does not support the forced rest of the OC Sabbath, with its many rules and regulations, he does support the reformed and active Sabbath of Christ. So this NCT view that Paul supports their “no Sabbath” position is false. He does no such thing.
Thus the facts of the NT prove NCT wrong.
Bob2 asked: Tom, answer me this, if the Gospel message was preached so clearly in the Gospels why this fear: John 20:19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”
Tom said: First, the Gospels were written many years after the cross, by those that had a mature view of the Gospel.
Second, Jesus Gospel teaching was not very clear at all. In fact, the Jews were so conditioned to embrace false doctrine, that he was not able to clearly teach them the Gospel. This is why he had to speak in parables, because his Gospel Message could not be comprehended by his generation. However, Christ knew that a record would be made, and that his teaching would take hold.
Mark 4:11 And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,
Mark 4:12 so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.”
How sad that at the end of time, the church cannot understand the Gospels. They cannot see or hear the Gospel any better than the 1st century Jews. Which is why not one denomination in the world follows what Jesus teaches about the Gospel Sabbath.
Third; directly after the Cross-, the disciples were fearful for their lives. Their leader had just been judged a criminal and executed on a cross. They too were criminals for still following him. They could be next. How could they not be fearful?
Few today would have such courage as they did, and thus almost none stand up to their blind and useless religious leaders and protest, not wanting to offend.
To embrace the genuine Gospel is to stand up against the religious status quo. Those that receive Eternal Life are not cowards.
Fourth: Note that Jesus wishes them Gospel Peace. Was it the Sabbath? No. Was he talking about the Sabbath? No. In the NT, Jesus is the source of peace and spiritual rest, 24/7--not the OC Sabbath doctrine, which had been transformed into an active and different NC doctrine.
Bob2 said: By the way, this verse tells you what the Gospel is all about, "Peace (Jesus) be with you". Only He can forgive and give a restful state.
Tom replied: This theory that the “peace” of Jesus has somehow replaced the doctrine of the weekly Sabbath in the church is utter fiction and nonsense. Which is why it was only recently invented in the 1970’s. The church has never practiced this view over its long history, and for good reason.
Bob asked the following: Tom and I-miller, please explain what you believe the following verses mean: Matt 5:17, 2 Cor 3:7, 1Jn 3:21, Col 2: 16.
Tom said: Bob, these favorite NCT texts reveal a lot about those who use them. Are you sure you want to know what they mean?
The primary meaning for this discussion is: NCT does not give the proper authority, respect, or study, to the teachings of Jesus, nor do they use an honest or Protestant hermeneutic.
These passages are being forced together in the typical SDA proof texting method, which is to defend and promote false doctrine. So the very combination of these passages shows that propaganda is the point, not an honest search for Gospel Truth.
While this discussion is about the definition and meaning of the Gospel Sabbath, those who defend NCT make a point of ignoring, avoiding, and dismissing Jesus’ teaching about this topic. So rather than focus on the numerous Sabbath passages where Christ explains, defends, and promotes his NC Sabbath, they pretend there are no such passages, so they can serve up diversions.
This explains why NO passages were put forward that show Jesus teaching about the Sabbath. NCT can only exist if they ignore what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath in all four Gospels, pretending that Paul has more to say about this topic than Christ. They are experts at ignoring the Gospels, and promoting their own false and twisted version of Christ.
NCT spits in the face of Christ for all to see, even as they double-talk and misuse the Word as badly as the SDA’s, Mormons, and all others.
All those that are serious about following Christ, and receiving Eternal Life, must run from the double-talk and error of NCT. Their disrespect for the Gospels, as well as their dishonest handling of the Word is blasphemy. Period!
In the Judgment Day, there will be no excuse for anyone that deliberately overlooked and rejected the clear and written Sabbath teachings of Jesus. Least of all so they can promote their own doctrines, which they incorrectly claim comes from Paul. None will enter the Narrow Gate of the Kingdom of God with such a false and wicked hermeneutic.
So Bob, your four passages are typical of NCT; Jesus words, which are taken out of context, are only cited 25%, while others, who are also taken out of context, comprise 75%. This is telling and very wrong.
Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Jesus’ words must fully support any and all church doctrine 100%, or it is false, including the doctrine about the Sabbath; the very point that sent him to the cross.
It is obvious that the NCT crowd is blind. They do not comprehend, agree with, or embrace the Sabbath Teachings of Christ. They act as if they are “ashamed” of his Sabbath teaching—and so they are.
Like the 1st century Jews, NCT is blind to the genuine Gospel and to the correct view of the NC Sabbath. They refuse to repent and come to Christ in the Gospels and learn truth; even though they pretend they are members of the Kingdom of God in good standing.
None in Laodicea are in good standing. They are all determined by Christ to be blind and naked, needing to repent and reform. NCT, like TA, is fatal for any that continue to embrace it. It is doctrine for the blind; theology for the rash, foolish, trite, and lazy.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
Those who want to understand the Gospel Sabbath must repent of their blindness and go find the Good Shepherd, in the Gospels, and learn from him. They must also “implore” Christ to heal their blindness so that they can see the real Gospel and be saved.
Mark 8:22 And they came to Bethsaida. And they *brought a blind man to Jesus and implored Him to touch him.
Mark 8:23 Taking the blind man by the hand, He brought him out of the village; and after spitting on his eyes and laying His hands on him, He asked him, “Do you see anything?”
Mark 8:24 And he looked up and said, “I see men, for I see them like trees, walking around.”
Mark 8:25 Then again He laid His hands on his eyes; and he looked intently and was restored, and began to see everything clearly.
There are many in Laodicea who are half blind. They have interacted with the genuine Christ through the Word, but yet they are still confused about the Gospel, unable to see things clearly or correctly. They must not give up; they must continue to “implore” Christ to heal their blindness, in order for them to see clearly.
Jesus is the source of all Gospel doctrine, including the Sabbath; the better we understand what he teaches, the closer we come to truth, and the better we can understand Paul and the rest of the NT.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
I hope this helps those who are serious about understanding the Gospel and finding Eternal Life.
Many however, are not serious or honest about salvation. They have decided to try and enter the Kingdom of God on their own terms, with their own diminished sight and wisdom.
But heaven will not be fooled, and neither will those on earth that understand the Gospel. NCT is fatal to all that embrace it. Beware false doctrine!
Tom Norris, for the genuine Gospel Sabbath of Christ
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Tom said:
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
Your quote is your fantasy. At His ascension, He had to open their eyes to see the meaning. They all felt he was to be a warrior king. How wrong could they be. Luke 24:44. They expected the Romans to be a Conquered . Each one had time to write each gospel more educated then when Christ ascened, otherwise, why were they hiideing and afraid.
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Hey Tom, your whole post is nothing but hot air. You avoided my questions like they are a plague. The whole law, 613 of them, were abrogated at Calvary. That fact along with the helpful verses I quoted blows your whole false thesis out of the water. All your thoughts have sunk to the bottom. No wonder your thumping hasn't bore any fruit.
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Bob
The tithe,as orginally set up was for the support of those"who had no portion in Israel" the tribe of Levi first of all but also for those who had no support or way of earning a living.The laws of Moses or at least therory behind them were very advanced for their times indeed even todays modern society could do well to reflect on them.
The SDA church has misconstrued the old laws and pick and choose what is applicable today and what isn't sometimes without any logic in the selection.
Sadly there is considerable difference between what Jesus actually taught and what passes for Christianity these days.With Jesus formal religion was a no no. What mattered was the personal relationship with God as a father figure and that all mankind were part of his family.Ritual and liturgy had no place in his concept.
Paul was a bit different and possibly more practical.
I take from your posting that you are an exSDA. Having like others studied your way out off that cult.
And remember only those who raised crops and animals paid tithe except for the Levites. they paid a tithe on the tithe they received and that was for the poor.
I have been told that other communities had similar laws that they kept such as sacrificing animals in ritual fashion.
Pick and choose their laws is a good point. Tom and his reformed Sabbath does the same thing.
Not much is recorded as to how formal or informal their worship was. Jesus was, for the most part, non committal on the point.
I have questioned some SDA teachings for years. It wasn't till I retired and had time to delve into the scriptures and read the works of outsiders that I finally acted on what I found to be many errors of doctrine. I wrote a letter of resignation around the 1999 time frame. Jesus said His yoke is easy and now I can understand why after being under SDA cult law for so long. Thank the Lord for His Grace without the works of old covenant law.
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NCT Futile
It is futile for anyone to try and defend NCT, pretending that Christ did not teach a Gospel version of the Sabbath to the Church. The most casual reading of the Gospels easily refutes this error.
This anti-Sabbatarian group also claims that Christ “abolished” the Sabbath, making it into an everyday doctrine of peace, which its proponents then observe on Sunday, the 1st day of the week.
Such illogical and impossible views are nothing more than anti-Semitic, anti-Sabbatarian, theological double-talk. NCT has no more NT credibility then the Mormons or Scientology, which is none.
NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
But yet, some former SDA’s are still trying to defend their escape from cultic Adventism into the error of NCT. As if NCT has the answers they were missing all these years. What they fail to understand is that they have never understood the Gospel correctly, not when they were SDA’s and not after they left.
Luke 6:39 And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
NCT is worse than Traditional Adventism, if this is possible. It is a modern day, 1970’s version Gnosticism, complete with the same hermeneutics that ignores and dismisses the Gospels, because they contain doctrines, like the Gospel Sabbath, that they don’t like.
Here goes more futility from the NCT crowd, even as the SDA’s dare not try to defend their false, OC view of the Sabbath.
Bob said: I-Miller, one big thing to remember is that Jesus was talking to those under the law. Any thing He would say to them agreed with the Torah. The New Covenant was future.
Tom said: Wrong. Jesus represents the New Covenant. His Gospel teachings were NC in nature; meant to replace the OC system. Until you stop embracing this absurd error that Jesus teaches the OC, you will never understand the NC Gospel teachings of Jesus, the Son of God.
In fact, had Jesus’ parents closely followed the OC rules and regulations, Mary would have been stoned to death for being pregnant by someone other than her husband. But Jesus parents broke the OC rules in order to bring Christ into our world. Proving that the OC was broken by the very birth of Christ. Good. The NC is a far better deal for us.
Such a fact disproves this theory that Jesus was careful to obey the OC. Even as a fetus, he was breaking the OC rules and so too did his parents. The NC trumps the OC, even as mercy is better than law.
Jesus’ Gospel teachings are the basis for the NC. The NC was not future. It had arrived with the person and ministry of Christ. (Anyone who is familiar with the Gospels should know this fact.)
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Mark 1:14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Matt. 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
This passage is not saying that Jesus came to preach, teach, or follow the OC. (Nor does any passage claim that Jesus was going to fulfill the Sabbath). No. It is announcing the start of the NC, which is the Gospel of Christ.
Moreover, Jesus has more authority than the Torah. Which is why he claimed to be the Lord of the Sabbath and then changed the Sabbath law and the Priesthood for all to see. What amazing authority and theology he had!
Jesus NC teachings did not “agree” with the OC system of law; they were in fact very different from it, and even against it. Which is why the leaders became so enraged with his reformed Sabbath and strange NC teachings.
I say again, Jesus represents the New Covenant not the old Covenant of Moses. Until the NCT crowd repents for their absurd view that Jesus is promoting the OC, and that the NC came through the apostles and not Christ, there is no hope for those so blind and lost.
Bob said: My first question was about Jesus telling the crowd that the old covenant law would stay in place until all would be accomplished (fulfilled).
Tom said: All would not be “accomplished” or fulfilled until after the 2nd Coming. So once again, the NCT crowd misunderstands Jesus, even as they try to make up whatever they want in order to defend their false view of the Sabbath doctrine.
Matt. 26:29 “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”
Rev. 19:7 “Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.”
Jesus could not have been teaching that the OC “would stay in place” until the end of the world, nor is this what he said. Your spin is absurd and very wrong. The OC system was destroyed and ground into dust by the Romans a few generations after Christ. The direct result of the Jews rejection of the Gospel. But the NC would continue on.
Only that which is written about Christ can be fulfilled.
This NCT idea that Jesus “fulfilled” the Sabbath is fictional and absurd. It is just made up theology for those that hate the Sabbath and refuse to follow Christ teachings about this doctrine. Let all run from NCT. It is poison.
Luke 22:37 “For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.”
Bob said: He didn't tell them that part of the law would at some point be fulfilled, but that the law, meaning all the law, would be fulfilled.
Tom said: Wrong. Jesus made it clear that he was fulfilling the many prophecies about the suffering Messiah, which were “written in the law of Moses and the prophets and the Psalms.”
There is no such thing as fulfilling the Moral law. It can be obeyed, but not fulfilled and used up. Stop making things up and manipulating the Word to support false doctrine.
The NT is clear what part of the law Jesus fulfilled. Just read the Gospels and learn the facts.
Is there any passage where Jesus claims to have fulfilled the Sabbath? No. Not one. Because there is no such prophecy, point, or doctrine.
Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
Where in the OT are these passages where the Messiah is supposed to fulfill the Sabbath and then abolish it?
There are no such passages. So Bob1 and Bob2, stop teaching fictional history and false doctrine. The NT is clear about what was to be fulfilled by Christ and how it was fulfilled. There is no such concept of him fulfilling the Sabbath.
Matt. 1:22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet:
Matt. 2:15 He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: “OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON.”
Matt. 2:23 and came and lived in a city called Nazareth. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets: “He shall be called a Nazarene.”
Matt. 3:15 But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he *permitted Him.
Matt. 4:14 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet:
Matt. 8:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: “HE HIMSELF TOOK OUR INFIRMITIES AND CARRIED AWAY OUR DISEASES.”
Matt. 12:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet:
Matt. 12:18 “BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN;
MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED;
I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM,
AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES.
Matt. 13:35 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:
“I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES;
I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.”
Matt. 21:4 This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:
Matt. 26:56 “But all this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures of the prophets.” Then all the disciples left Him and fled.
Mark 14:49 “Every day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize Me; but this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures.”
John 12:38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?”
John 15:25 “But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.’
John 18:9 to fulfill the word which He spoke, “Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one.”
John 18:32 to fulfill the word of Jesus which He spoke, signifying by what kind of death He was about to die.
John 19:24 So they said to one another, “Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, to decide whose it shall be”; this was to fulfill the Scripture: “THEY DIVIDED MY OUTER GARMENTS AMONG THEM, AND FOR MY CLOTHING THEY CAST LOTS.”
John 19:28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, “I am thirsty.”
John 19:36 For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.”
The facts prove NCT to be FALSE.
This confused idea that Jesus “fulfilled” the Moral law is utter nonsense and foolishness. It is double-talk and deliberate error. While Moral law can be obeyed, it cannot be fulfilled, used up, or abolished.
How does one “fulfill” the law against murder, stealing, etc? Much less to the point that what was fulfilled, is now abolished, resulting in lawlessness?
As for the Sabbath, not only did Jesus NOT fulfill it, he changed the law of the 4th Commandment -for the church- into a very different Sabbath doctrine. Because of his changed Priesthood, the NC Sabbath now becomes a day of innocence, freedom, and activity. It is nothing like what the legalistic SDA’s teach, with their worship of the Moral law and obsession with the 4th Commandment. They are modern day Judaizers.
The NC Sabbath is still a memorial to the Creation Story, and it still is a day when the NC congregation of Israel, (the church) meets to praise God and thank him for Christ and the Gospel. However, it is not a day to cease from our works or to rest and be lazy. It is not a rest day, but a good works day. A Gospel Day.
Jesus Did Not Fulfill The Sabbath
The Bible does not, not, not, teach that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath, much less abolish it. This fictional theology is for amateurs, even as it works well for those who have a chip on their shoulders against the law and Adventism. It is for those who are unable to comprehend the Scriptures correctly, and who refuse to repent, choosing instead to make things up in order to defend their false doctrines. Sad.
This is normative; only a minority will understand the Gospel. This is how it was in the beginning and how it will be at the end of the Gospel age. While many are called to understand the Gospel, only a “few” will figure it out. NCT is part of the “many” that have embraced fatal myths from a false Christ.
Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Bob said: SDAs are quick to tell us that part of the law was fulfilled at the Cross. Where do they get their information as to what was fulfilled?
Tom said: Take a deep breath and try not to blame everything on the SDA’s. Moreover, do not let your awful upbringing in this confused cult destroy your ability to understand the Gospel. I fear it has.
It was the apostolic church that first understood the Lamb of God had been slain. They were the first to understand that Jesus was the fulfillment of sacrificial system, even as they also understood that the Levites were abolished from the church, replaced with a gender natural, all-inclusive priesthood, with Christ as the high Priest of God, and the church as the new Temple on earth.
The church fathers also correctly understood that the OC Ceremonial Law was fulfilled at the cross, abolished and removed as a functioning religious system. This understanding took place long before the SDA’s existed. These early Christians were also correct to understand that the Moral law was eternal and that it was not abolished or “fulfilled.” This is standard Protestant theology, as well as RC.
No church takes the view that Moral law has been removed, not even those who invented NCT. They just pretend that the Sabbath was the only one of the ten to be ignored by Christ and thus abolished. What a strange view they have? It makes no sense, nor is even close to being correct.
But even so, the post apostolic Church, including the SDA’s, failed to embrace the correct doctrine of the Sabbath. And so too NCT.
The law saves no one, least of all by obedience to the OC Sabbath law. Salvation is only by faith in Christ and his teachings, which include his active and reformed Sabbath that does not condemn anyone for working on the NC Sabbath.
Bob said: How come the meat eating law and the tithe law escaped being fulfilled? How come the Sabbath laws escaped being fulfilled?
Tom said: Tithe and the Leviticial Priesthood, as well as the Temple, were no longer needed after the cross. God had unveiled another, better, Way to understand and access God. Jesus fulfilled and abolished this OC system and changed it into something very different; the Church.
Thus, in the NC, Jewish Food laws were no longer binding, and neither was the Leviticial Priesthood or tithe, or the OC non-working Sabbath. They were all gone, replaced by better doctrines, including a much better and more democratic, gender neutral Priesthood and a very different, active Sabbath of freedom and innocence.
There was no longer a Temple oriented, hierarchical, all male model for access to God. A Congregational, democratic, gender neutral Priesthood emerged to the amazement of all. No one saw the church coming…
Again, the Sabbath is not something that can be fulfilled by Christ or anyone else. The Sabbath is a weekly doctrine that points back to the Creation Story. It never gets fulfilled or used up by observance in either the OC or NC.
Bob said: My second question was in reference to 2Cor 3 where it tells us that the 10 commandments are no longer our guide.
Tom said: Jesus and his NC teachings guide the church forever. Not the Law of Moses. Thus the Law of Christ, which is defined as his NC teachings, controls all Christian behavior.
However, this point does not mean the Moral law is abolished. It is not. It still plays a role in the world, and in the Judgment to come. Why? Because it defines sin, and love, even as it is a standard of behavior. Not only that, Jesus has embraced all 10 Moral laws as part of his Gospel teachings, even the one about the Sabbath, which NCT ignores. Thus the “law of Christ” contains a (reformed) doctrine of the Sabbath for the church.
Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and call the world may become accountable to God;
Rom. 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom. 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
While no Christian should live “under” the guilt or threat of the Moral law, no Christian should try to live without the law. Christians are not “lawless,” nor is the law bad when used correctly.
1Cor. 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
The NT teaches that the Moral Law is “good” if one understands its purpose and place. But few understand such things, and thus many engage in worthless discussions about the law, even inventing new doctrines, like NCT, or like the SDA’s who became flaming legalists, making fools of themselves by their promotion of the law and the OC Sabbath, and Tithe, and the IJ, and Food Laws, and grape juice, etc.
Paul Defends The Moral Law
1Tim. 1:6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,
1Tim. 1:7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
1Tim. 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
1Tim. 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
1Tim. 1:10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
1Tim. 1:11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
Paul does not teach that the Moral law has been abolished. So why do people insist otherwise?
Jesus teaches that at the end of time, “many” Christians will be found in a lawless state, yet claiming that they are guided by the Spirit. At the Judgment, this deluded crowd brags about their spiritual accomplishments, explaining why they should be granted Eternal Life, but they have misunderstood the Gospel. They have been following a false Christ.
“They do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.” Tim 1:7
They think they are great Christians, with great theology and many good works. However, it turns out they are following a false spirit, who had urged them to repudiate the Moral law, and embrace a false view of the Gospel. Learn from Christ before it is too late:
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Those, like the NCT crowd, that teach Christ abolished the Moral law, are “practicing lawlessness.” They are not legalists, like the SDA’s, but they are doomed nonetheless. They have been warned by Christ, but they are not paying attention.
Let those who seek Eternal Life beware all false doctrine and run from legalism and lawlessness. Both are fatal.
Bob said: We are now guided by the Holy Spirit.
Tom said: All that follow Christ must be guided by his teaching in the Gospels. The Spirit works to re-enforce the Words of Christ, not to invent new doctrine.
John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
John 16:13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
The Spirit is not independent of Christ or his teachings, nor is he in competition with Christ. Rather, the true Spirit enforces and supports the teachings of Jesus, guiding all that do not resist into the correct Gospel teachings of Christ.
Let all beware: NCT does not follow the Spirit, and neither does anyone that refuses to be honest with the Words of Christ by pretending that he has fulfilled and abolished the Sabbath, or that it is sinful to work on the 7th day.
Bob said: The 10 have faded.
Tom said: Many that speak about the law, like the NCT crowd, are promoting “fruitless and misleading discussions,” which also took place in the apostolic church. So this is hardly new.
While the Moral Law has “faded” into the background as a method to please God, it still has the power to define sin and Judge behavior, even as it defines love, the point of the Gospel.
Listen to Paul once again and learn. He does not teach that the Moral law is abolished, but rather, that it is “good,” --if one understands how to view the law in the Gospel age.
1Tim. 1:5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
1Tim. 1:6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,
1Tim. 1:7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
1Tim. 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
1Tim. 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
1Tim. 1:10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
1Tim. 1:11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
This passage condemns any that claim the Moral law has been abolished after the cross. Paul is saying the opposite, and so too is Christ. NCT had better repent of their false “assertions” and hope that God will give them the Spirit of Gospel understanding, which they do not have.
Bob said: Doesn't it sound like the 10 were part of the law Jesus was referring to when he declared in Matt 5 that the law would be fulfilled?
Tom said: Your ears only want to hear what you want them to hear. Jesus teaches the opposite of what you claim. He says that he did not come to “abolish” the law, but to “fulfill” what the law foretold about the suffering Messiah, the Lamb of God.
Matt. 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
Matt. 5:18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Matt. 5:19 “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matt. 5:20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt. 5:21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’
Matt. 5:22 “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Rather than remove the Moral law, Jesus gives it a deeper meaning that reaches beyond our actions and into our very mind. To be angry, wishing someone were dead, equals murder in the sight of God. Even if no murder or violence took place.
Thus there is no basis in Matt 5 to pretend that Jesus has removed and abolished the Moral law. The church has never taken this view and those that support NCT are following a false Christ of their own making. They are standing outside the teaching of the church; they are modern day Gnostics and heretics.
Bob said: If we are still under the 10 with its Sabbath command wouldn't Paul be making a mistake by telling us in 2Cor 3 that the 10 have faded?
Tom said: Pay attention: The Christian is NOT under the 10 C’s. Rather, they are under the “law of Christ.”
The SDA’s are very wrong about the law, and so too the RC’s. Just because the law is not removed, that does not make it the correct method for salvation. It is not. None are saved because they obey the law. Nor does anyone lose their salvation because they have not obeyed it.
Faith in Christ has replaced law keeping as the method for entrance into the Kingdom of God. But the Moral law has gone nowhere. It stands ready to condemn and kill any that violate it, including the Christian, if they do not understand how to find safety and protection under the Gospel.
Bob said: My third question had to do with 1JN 3 where John the disciple tells us that the commands we are to obey are not the 10, but the law of love. Does this not tell you that it isn't the 10 with its Sabbath command is part of the law Jesus in Matt 5 said would be fulfilled?
Tom said: First off, there is no such phrase as the “law of love” in the Bible. So stop trying to manipulate the Word and make it say things that would help you defend false doctrine. This is blasphemy against the Spirit, and unless you become honest with the Word, you will have no chance at understanding the Gospel correctly. There is no forgiveness for those who treat the Word in such a disrespectful manner.
Matt. 12:30 “He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.
Matt. 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
Matt. 12:32 “Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Second, the NT teaches that Love is the fulfilling of the law. Thus the law is not against love, nor has it been removed as you insist.
Moreover, if the Moral law was really abolished, there could be no sin or love. But there is both love and sin, which proves there is law.
Rom. 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
James 2:8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well.
James 2:9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
James 2:11 For He who said, “DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,” also said, “DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
James 2:12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
James 2:13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
As for the “Law of Christ:” it is ludicrous for the NCT crowd to claim that Jesus only embraces and teaches 90% of the Moral law. This is a critical point for everything they teach about the Sabbath. If they wrong on this point, their whole theory falls in heap, worthless for all to see. And so it has.
Jesus teaches so much about the NC Sabbath, in all four Gospels, that only a blind person could deny what is so obvious.
Jesus often repeated Sabbath teaching is a clear and observable fact, beyond rational refutation or denial. Thus it is not true that he omits teaching the NC Sabbath. Those who make such a ludicrous claim are following a false Christ of their own making. They are doomed to hell for good reason.
Bob said: My fourth question had to do with Col 2:16 where Paul explicitly tells them not to judge anyone in what they ate, drank or the holy days they observed because they were mere shadows of Jesus.
Tom said: While many have embraced this text, thinking it removes the Sabbath, it does no such thing. They are just following wishful hermeneutics, intent on defending their false theories no matter the facts.
This passage does not declare the Sabbath doctrine null and void; rather it supports the fact that the Sabbath doctrine is alive and active in the church. Not the OC Sabbath, but the NC Sabbath of Christ. A doctrine, which few today understand.
If the doctrine of the Sabbath has been “abolished,” why did Paul never make such a claim? Is he not capable of articulating such a truth, if it is truth?
Here would be a perfect place for him to make this point. But he does not. Not only that, he teaches that no one in the church is to allow anyone to Judge their behavior on the Sabbath. Which is the opposite of saying it does not exist. The doctrine of the Sabbath must exist, in some form, in order for Paul to teach what he does in this passage.
Bob said: Again, in reference to Matt 5:16-17 doesn't it appear that the law referenced to, would include the Sabbath law since Paul expounds on it in Col 2??
Tom said: Once again, the NCT crowd is caught trying to manipulate the NT, forcing Jesus to say what they want to hear. They look at Matt 5, where Jesus is dealing with the amplification of the Moral law as it relates to murder and adultery, and failing to find the Sabbath mentioned, they declare it null and void.
However, all they have to do is study the rest of the Gospels to see what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath.
Why limit their search to Matt 5?
Answer: Because they are not honest seekers for Gospel truth. Rather, they are determined to defend their false position through a dishonest hermeneutic that ignores the many passages where Jesus teaches, defends, and promotes the NC Sabbath.
So be it. Such willful and deliberate hermeneutical incompetence is nothing more than blasphemy. Those who play such games with the Words of Jesus will have a special place in hell.
James 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
Bob said: It all makes sense to me so I have given up trying to "keep" a day which I tried for years to do and failed every week.
Tom said: False doctrine makes great sense to those that are lost and in the dark. Which is why Jesus teaches that “many” Christians will be lost, thinking all the while that they are doing great things for God and Christ. How could they be so blind and wrong?
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
While false doctrines “make sense” to many Christians, they do not make any sense to Jesus, or to those that understand the Gospel correctly. NCT makes no Gospel sense. It is confused, lawless theology that arrogantly spits in the face of Christ and his Reformed Gospel Sabbath.
All those who follow a false Christ, do so thinking they have found the genuine path into the Kingdom of God. They think they have correct doctrines and a true Spirit, but they have neither.
1John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Bob said: Why do I now need a day to remember creation and to "keep" holy when I have the Creator to love, worship and honor and I can do that every day and every minute?
Tom said: First, it was God’s idea that humans needed a weekly day to remember that God is the Creator of the World. The fact you think otherwise, thinking you are smarter than God, does not help your twisted position.
Second, the NC Sabbath is not to be “kept holy” by forced rest and rules against activity and work. This is the very point that Jesus made with his reformed and very active Gospel Sabbath. The NC way to view the 7th day is not passive, or with a forced, holy rest. No. It is an active and free day to hear the Gospel and do good works.
So stop thinking that the NC Sabbath is anything like what the SDA’s indoctrinated you to believe. The Gospel Sabbath is not the same, lame, doctrine as what the confused SDA’s teach.
Third, it is a delusion to think that you can “love, worship, and honor” the Creator on your own terms, and with your own fictionalized doctrines. This is the great sin of Laodicea. They think they can make up their own spin on the Bible and this is what every church and denomination has done, including the late invented heresy of NCT.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
Those who truly love and follow Christ, will pay close attention to his words and embrace them, including what he teaches about the active, 7th day Sabbath. Those who ignore, marginalize, and manipulate his Gospel teaching, are showing that do not know or love God or his Christ. They are blind to think otherwise.
Bob said: I rest in Him. What more do I need?
Tom said: Bob, let me warn you: You are “resting” in a false Christ and worthless Gospel. So you need repentance and healing, because you are being swept away by an evil Spirit of Gospel Delusion. You are blind to the teachings of Christ, and so too any that embrace NCT or the legalism of the SDA’s.
Luke 11:32 “The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
Luke 11:33 “No one, after lighting a lamp, puts it away in a cellar nor under a basket, but on the lampstand, so that those who enter may see the light.
Luke 11:34 “The eye is the lamp of your body; when your eye is clear, your whole body also is full of light; but when it is bad, your body also is full of darkness.
Luke 11:35 “Then watch out that the light in you is not darkness.
While NCT pretends to be great light and advanced truth, it is great darkness and delusion, and so too is Traditional Adventism, from which many of the NCT crowd escaped. But what has been gained by leaving one ditch of false doctrine,- only to fall into another deep pit?
After Glacier View, I was amazed as one SDA after another embraced this double-talk about the Sabbath, which is called NCT. It only goes to show how unfamiliar they were about the Gospel. So while Dr. Ford repudiated NCT, many others were not educated enough in the Word to know better. Pitiful.
Luke 6:39 And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
Those that seek Eternal Life must only follow the genuine Christ of the Gospels.
Old Abe said: Bob If you read the Sabbath command in Deuteuromy you will see it is a sign of delivery from bondage/sin.
Tom said: It is the Passover that best commemorates the delivery from sin and bondage. And yes, the Sabbath was part of the original Passover Story that resulted in freedom from Egyptian slavery.
Old Abe said: If it is a sign of freedom from bondage it cannot be bondage to keep it.
Tom said: Those who try and observe the OC Sabbath of Moses are under the bondage of legalism and law keeping. Jesus taught a very different doctrine of the Sabbath, which is what is under discussion here.
It is critical to understand that there are TWO basic doctrines of the 7th day Sabbath in the Bible.
1. The OC Sabbath of Moses and the 10 C’s.
2. The Reformed NC Sabbath of Christ.
Those who understand the Gospel can only embrace the NC Sabbath, not the OC version, like the SDA’s.
Old Abe said: Sda’s get hung up on the Exodus command but fail to recognize the beauty of the Sabbath command in its later version. And the testimony to salvation by grace
Tom said: The Gospel Sabbath of Christ is not only a memorial to the Creation Story; it is also a weekly memorial to the Gospel.
It is a living doctrine that elevates the Gospel over Law, and re-enforces the freedom from sin and our innocence in front of the law. It is going to be a hard doctrine for any legalist to understand.
The correct view of the NC Sabbath should put a big smile on the faces of all that embrace it. It is nothing like what the Jews or SDA’s teach. It is an “amazing” and wonderful Gospel doctrine that few today comprehend.
Bob said: Hi Abe, The Deuteronomy version of the 4th commandment surely throws a clinker into the SDA Sabbath issue. What many forget is the fact that that the Deut version places the Sabbath requirement for only the Israelites.
Tom said: The Gospel, and the NC Sabbath, are only for those who are born again into the house of Israel. So your point is worthless and wrong. To embrace the Gospel is to become a NC Israelite, and to embrace the Sabbath of Christ.
Rom. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
Rom. 9:7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
Rom. 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
Those who refuse to embrace the Gospel, have nothing to do with the NC Sabbath or anything else that Jesus teaches. They are not part of the Covenants or the Kingdom of God or the NC Israel, which is the Church.
Gal. 6:14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
Gal. 6:15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Gal. 6:16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
Bob said: Being a gentile I have no ties to my heritage coming out of bondage. I need not celebrate the issue. It was not meant for me or my family going back or forward. The Sabbath was part of a pact given to a small group of people who lived on the Earth.
Tom said: Again, if you accept Christ, you must be born again into a Semitic, Jewish mindset and history. Abraham is now your spiritual father, and the history of the Jews is your history and lesson book.
Heb. 11:12 Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE.
Heb. 11:13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
Heb. 11:14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.
Heb. 11:15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb. 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
Thus, all Jews and Gentiles must become a spiritual Jews in order to enter the Kingdom of the Jewish God and his Jewish Christ.
Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
Rom. 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Eph. 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands —
Eph. 2:12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph. 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
The NC 7th day Sabbath is a testimony to the fact that the Gospel and the church is 100% Jewish. Those who think otherwise do not understand the Gospel.
Bob said: Since the Cross even the Jews have no reason to celebrate a day. They have Messiah to celebrate. Jesus didn't just save them from bondage in Egypt, He saved or is willing to save them from perdition.
Tom said: All that follow the God of the Jews and his Son, have plenty of reason to acknowledge the Creator and his Sabbath. In the NC, it is a day to celebrate the Gospel with the rest of Israel, the church. But one where all are free to do any kind of good work.
Old Abe said: Bob, While I am not defending Sabbath keeping per see (Paul makes it clear the Sabbath keeping is optional) I do think you are missing my point. Let me explain.
Tom said: First, Paul does not teach that the Sabbath is optional. Rather, he teaches that no one, especially the Judaizers, is to judge our behavior on the NC Sabbath.
Second, no Christian is to keep the OC “schoolmaster” or “tutor” Sabbath. This is very wrong.
Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Third, all that follow Christ will defend and embrace what he teaches about the Sabbath. But few know what he teaches on this or any topic. Sad.
Old Abe said: The story of the Exodus is a type of the spiritual
journey all of us make not necessarily a historical fact. Hence we are all sinners born into bondage and unable to free ourselves without the miraculous intervention of grace.
Tom said: The Story of the Jews becomes the story of all that follow Christ.
1Cor. 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
1Cor. 10:2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Cor. 10:3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
1Cor. 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
Old Abe said: Now it is not necessary to "keep" the Sabbath but for those who understand and appreciate deliverance the day of ceasing from ones labours can be a beautiful testimony to salvation by grace.
Tom said: The NC teaches a different Sabbath from the OC. This is the point of this discussion. The Gospel Sabbath is NOT about ceasing from our labors, but about doing good works. These are opposite paradigms, resting versus working.
Old Abe said: You are correct that Christ is our "rest" and unless you are convinced by the Spirit to make a public witness by observing the Sabbath it would be hypocritical to do so.
Tom said: Christ is our spiritual rest 24 / 7. However, this does not negate what he teaches about the reformed and active weekly Sabbath. No Christian should be so foolish as to embrace the OC resting Sabbath of Moses. This is the wrong view of the NC Sabbath. The Spirit is not promoting anyone today to follow such false, anti-Gospel doctrine. Nor is the Spirit promoting the no Sabbath view.
Old Abe said: The problem with the SDA emphasis on the Exodus Sabbath is that they get themselves locked into the YEC and a system of works.
Tom said: Yes. The SDA’s are great legalists. That is why they refused to repent of their “schoolmaster” Sabbath in 1888 and move forward to the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. They rejected the Gospel and continued to promote the OC Sabbath of Moses, which they still do to this day.
Old Abe said: I think that Jesus taught the Deut Sabbath while the Pharisees never got beyond the first step of their spiritual journey.
Tom said: Wrong. Jesus taught a very different, very active Sabbath that was based on a dramatic change in the Priesthood and the definition of the Temple. No one saw this Gospel Sabbath coming; it was a great surprise to the Jews, even as it is shocking to us today.
Old Abe said: I have a feeling that Tom Norris is really talking about the Deut Sabbath but is so beligerant and extreme that he turns people off.
Tom said: We are discussing the Gospel Sabbath of Christ, which can be found in all four Gospels. It was never taught in the OC. Thus you will find this reformed and active Sabbath in Matt, Mark, Luke, and John, as well as in some other NT books.
This NC Sabbath amazed the people and turned off the Jewish leaders. They thought it was very wrong of Christ to make such a change to the 4th Commandment. This is why they sent him to the cross.
Bob said: Thanks Abe, while it is true that Paul doesn't come right out and negate Sabbath observance he clearly indicates that it is not necessary for salvation.
Tom said: Of course no one is saved by any type of law keeping, including Sabbath keeping, I never said otherwise. But yet, Paul does not teach that the Sabbath is abolished in the NC. So the question is this: what is the NC Sabbath?
Bob said: What is truth and Sabbath observers seem to over look is the fact that Christians are not under Old Covenant law. Sabbath observers somehow twist plain scripture and teach that Sabbath observance is a requirement.
Tom said: The SDA Sabbath observers have embraced the WRONG doctrine of the Sabbath. They do not understand nor embrace what Jesus clearly teaches about the NC Sabbath. This is their great problem. They do not understand the Gospel or the law correctly. They are OC Christians, which is the same as saying they are Judaizers.
Adventist Reform is promoting the NC Sabbath, which is the opposite of legalism.
Bob said: If one, who was at sometime an observer and then led by the Holy Spirit, no longer believes Sabbath to be a requirement that person, in the eyes of the Sabbath observers, is lost. This comes not from scripture, but from a false teaching from a false prophet.
Tom said: Again, the SDA’s have the wrong view of the Gospel and the Sabbath. Nor do they have the correct Spirit. They are acting like the Judaizers.
All that follow Jesus are “required” to embrace his NC teaching about all things, including his reformed and active Gospel Sabbath.
Bob said: I personally do not advocate any one day a week as special, all are special.
Tom said: Our “personal” views are irrelevant and worthless. The question is this: what does Jesus teach about the Sabbath? Did he teach that the 7th day was “special”? Or that all 7 days are equally special? This is the real question. There is only one answer. Do you know what it is?
Bob said: We are free to choose any day to assemble. We are told not to forsake assembling ourselves together. I personally believe that is a command given by inspiration.
Tom said: Those who refuse to be honest with the teachings of Jesus will not be saved. Thus “many” embrace their own “personal” spin on the NT, picking and choosing what seems best to their minds. This is suicide. All are free to make such a fatal mistake.
Bob said: Those who set aside a day for rest and reflection is commendable. I am sure they receive a blessing.
Tom said: Those who embrace the OC Sabbath are refuting the Gospel teachings of Christ. This is damnable, not “commendable.”
Christ does not teach that anyone should rest and reflect on the Gospel Sabbath. This is great myth and error. Too bad that so many have confused Moses with Jesus. This is a fatal error.
Bob said: There is a very developing danger in those who make Sabbath keeping a strict rule, They can and do become very legalistic in what could be a real blessing. This is especially so in those who use Ellen as their guide.
Tom said: Anyone that embraces the OC Sabbath, with its forced rest and separate priesthood, (whether on Sunday or Saturday), has fallen from grace. They do not understand the Gospel, nor are they saved. They may as well be observing ritual circumcision and the rest of the OC laws, of which OC Sabbath keeping was a part.
Gal. 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, (or OC Sabbath keeping) Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Bob said: As you mentioned a good example were the Pharisees. Ellen is SDA’s pharisee.
Tom said: Ellen White would rejoice to know that the genuine Gospel Sabbath has been clearly articulated and launched into the dying world of the SDA’s. She knew that the Adventists had botched the Gospel and Sabbath Reform, even as the Spirit was leading her away from OC tithing and the many errors it stands for.
The SDA’s must repent for 1888 and Glacier View, going forward in their quest for Sabbath Reform and eschatological clarity. The Gospel Sabbath is now within their reach. But only if they repent of their many false doctrines, including the OC Sabbath, tithe, the IJ, and their grape juice Gospel.
Bob said: As far as the Deut version and the Exodus version of the Sabbath was the remembrance. One was creation and the other Egypt. In the Deut version it makes it very clear that Sabbath was made for those delivered from bondage in Egypt. The special day was for just that group of people just as the remainder of the law was for only them.
Tom said: The Gospel Sabbath was made for all those who would embrace Christ by faith and follow his teaching. He will lead them all from a world of bondage to the promised land of Eternal Life.
Consequently, They are free to be active on this Gospel day without any condemnation from the law. This reformed doctrine is only for the church, which is the new Israel of God.
Bob said: The New Covenant is unique in that it makes the law of love the center of our responsibility.
Tom said: There is no such phrase as the “law of love” in the entire Bible. Jesus never uses such language, much less teaches it. So what does that tell you?
Let all beware of man-made doctrines and fictionalized theology. There is no phrase in all the Bible as the “law of love.” This is fiction and misinformation put forth by those who champion false doctrine. Let all run from those who are so dishonest with the Word. They are wolves, not sheep.
Bob said: Keeping days are not important because they were mere shadows of our living Christ. Again SDAs water down this fact by insisting we keep days, unclean meat laws and a modified false tithing system all taken from an abrogated law supported by the prophet.
Tom said: The SDA’s must be condemned for their OC legalism and many false doctrines. But that does not change the Gospel.
What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath is very important. He does not teach what the SDA’s claim, and in fact, he teaches the opposite. This idea of not working in order to “keep the Sabbath” is not from Jesus, but from Moses. Which proves the SDA’s do not understand the Gospel or the NC Sabbath.
Bob said: Tom Norris fails to recognize these facts and is trying to thump nothing but a watered down version of the same old stuff the SDAs have thumped since 1844.
Tom said: Your facts are wrong and confused. The NC Sabbath, while being on the 7th day, is very different from what the SDA’s have promoted. If you don’t think so, then you are not following this discussion.
The NC Sabbath is radically and dramatically different from what the SDA’s teach. In fact, the SDA’s are not even aware that Jesus teaches an active working Sabbath, based on the Priesthood of all believers. Thus they are stunned by this discussion. All their great talkers are speechless.
The SDA’s have been following the OC all these years, not the NC. This explains why they set up a separate priesthood of Pastors, supported by tithe, even as they teach that it is sinful to work on the Sabbath. They are following the OC, not the NC.
Whenever those who understood the Gospel stood up to make corrections, like E J. Waggoner or Dr. Ford, the leaders, Like Uriah Smith or Neal Wilson, went on the attack, trying to defend their OC empire and fight against the Gospel, just like the wicked 1st century Jews.
The Gospel Sabbath is very different from the SDA Sabbath. The very fact you don’t know this fact means you don’t understand the Gospel teachings of Christ, or the NC Sabbath.
Bob said: I will commend him for recognizing that the tithing system was just for the Israelites before the destruction of the Temple. Even the Jews today don't use the system.
Tom said: Jesus Sabbath teaching is for the church. It is for all that follow him into “His marvelous light.”
Gal. 6:16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
1Pet. 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Old Abe said: The SDA church has misconstrued the old laws and pick and choose what is applicable today and what isn't sometimes without any logic in the selection.
Tom said: The SDA’s, and all others as well, have many errors and thus many reasons to repent. They are full of false doctrine and OC legalism, just like the Jews they emulate.
Someone said: Sadly there is considerable difference between what Jesus actually taught and what passes for Christianity these days. With Jesus, formal religion was a no no. What mattered was the personal relationship with God as a father figure and that all mankind were part of his family. Ritual and liturgy had no place in his concept.
Tom said: This idea of a “personal relationship” is SDA code for legalism. It was meant to view Christ as the new Moses, complete with a long list of rules and regulations, including the OC Sabbath of forced rest.
But how can one have a “relationship” with someone that they don’t know or pay attention to? We are saved by faith in the genuine Christ, but most have no idea what he teaches, and the doctrine of the Sabbath proves this point.
As for liturgy, it does have a place in the church, which is why Jesus invented the Eucharist and told all his followers to practice it as he taught it. But again, the SDA’s have changed what Jesus taught, inserting grape juice into this holy ritual because they think it sinful to drink wine. Which is not true.
Those who think they can correct and manipulate Christ’s teachings have made a huge mistake. They are doomed. They are not having a true relationship with Christ, but a false relationship with a Christ of their own making.
Bob said: Hey Tom, your whole post is nothing but hot air. You avoided my questions like they are a plague.
Tom said: Ha! Don’t flatter yourself. I have addressed your absurd defense of NCT, and shown it to be worthless drivel.
Too bad you refuse to repent of your proof texting ways. Too bad you think it fine to ignore what Jesus teaches about the Gospel Sabbath. Such dishonest hermeneutics are fatal for you personally, even as they underscore the fact that NCT is full of hot air and worthless theology.
Bob said: The whole law, 613 of them, were abrogated at Calvary. That fact along with the helpful verses I quoted blows your whole false thesis out of the water.
Tom said: While the ceremonial laws ended at the cross, the Moral Law did not. Which is why it is still wrong to murder, steal, lie, commit adultery, worship false gods, etc.
So it is not correct to pretend that the Christian lives in a lawless state. Neither Christ, the apostles, nor the Church Fathers, claimed that the Moral law was abolished at the cross. It is time for such amateur myths to cease.
Luther also agreed with this view. Thus the SDA’s were correct to teach that the Moral law still exists to define sin and love and govern behavior. It is true.
Bob said: All your thoughts have sunk to the bottom. No wonder your thumping hasn't bore any fruit.
Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. First off, this discussion is about what Christ teaches in the Gospels; not about “my thoughts.”
Second, no one has come close to refuting the Gospel Sabbath, as a review of this record will prove. Least of all, anyone from the NCT crowd. Not only do they hate the very mention of the Sabbath, they also refuse to consider what Jesus teaches about this doctrine. Thus they are blind to Gospels, which explains why their Sabbath doctrine is so twisted and absurd.
Third, the reaction to the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath is very positive. Especially when people read this discussion and see how much the Gospels have to say about the Sabbath.
This is why a Roman Catholic critic of the SDA’s has endorsed this new Sabbath view that is really based in the 1st century.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm
One day, in God’s own time, a portion of the Laodicean church will repent as directed in the Pre Advent Judgment of the Laodicean Church. Then the reformed Sabbath of Christ will become a well-understood Gospel doctrine. It will separate those who are paying attention to Christ and those who are not.
Bob said: I have questioned some SDA teachings for years. It wasn't till I retired and had time to delve into the scriptures and read the works of outsiders that I finally acted on what I found to be many errors of doctrine.
Tom said: Millions have figured out that the SDA’s are full of false doctrine. However, it is far easier to find error than truth. Many that left the SDA’s, have gone on to embrace more error. They just went from one side of the doctrinal ditch to another. They never found solid truth, as evidenced by their double talk about the Sabbath and most everything else.
Bob said: I wrote a letter of resignation around the 1999 time frame. Jesus said His yoke is easy and now I can understand why after being under SDA cult law for so long. Thank the Lord for His Grace without the works of old covenant law.
Tom said: Those who are serious about Gospel Truth will keep searching until they find it. The NC is hardly comprehended by any church or denomination today. The doctrine of the Sabbath underscores this sad point.
There is only one Gospel and one Gospel Sabbath, aka, the Lord’s Day. Those the claim to follow Christ had better make sure they comprehend what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath. If they don’t, then it is proof positive that they are following a false Christ and a worthless Gospel.
Luke 8:8 As He said these things, He would call out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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QUESTION for Tom Norris:
Is the Sabbath still on Saturday or any other day? Where does it say it was done away with? Do we have to hold the Sabbath today?
Bertin,
Ontario, Canada
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Answer: In the Old Covenant, there was a passive, 7th day Sabbath, where the Law had to be strictly obeyed by Israel. No work, not even cooking or traveling was allowed on this special religious day. But things would change in the NC.
In the New Covenant, there is an active, 7th day Sabbath, where the law of Christ and the teachings of Jesus now define this doctrine. No longer does the Law of Moses define this day for any Christian. Rather, it is the teachings of Christ, in the Gospels, that shows a very different kind of Sabbath for those of faith.
Moreover, there is no such (valid) doctrine as a Sunday Sabbath for the church; nor is the 7th day “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the SDA’s correct. But there is a 7th day Gospel Sabbath. It is clearly taught by Christ in all four Gospels. THIS is the correct Sabbath for the last church to understand and embrace.
Here are some links about the Reformed, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath of Christ;
The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228
The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242
SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836
NC Sabbath
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm
Reformed Sabbath
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … bath-4.htm
I hope this information will help you understand the Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
Tom Norris for All Experts.Com and Adventist Reform
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Sabbath means seventh and is prescribed as the seventh day of creation. This is the origin of the seven day week. When God rested that first seventh day of earth it was His custom from all eternity. The Sabbath on earth according to Enoch was in sync with Heaven and was kept in Heaven before earth.
Was anything changed when Christ died on the cross? No. He came to fulfil the law, not abolish it and it was fulfilled by His keeping it as His custom was from all eternity.
Mt 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Notice the condemnation for teaching to break even one of them.
Jesus is our Sabbath rest alright if we come and honor His Holy day. He is the great creator as most realize I'm sure.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.Question is, how many firsts can you have? Do you see what He is saying?
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
Last edited by Gibs (01-28-12 8:54 pm)
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Gibs: Have you not considered:
John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
The word rest in Gen 2 means to cease one's activity. Certainly we do not worship a God who tires. Sanctified means to set aside for a special use. To be kept by a certain people to make them unique, then to be fulfilled in Christ as our Rest which is the ultimate goal of the Christian to Rest in Christ. To demand the Sabbath as it was for the Jews, does it not diminish the Sabbath. Consider:
Heb 4:7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” ...
We can have this kind of rest NOW, TODAY, not having to wait weeks, months or years,eh???
Heb 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
There is discontinuity between the two Covenants as well as unique tenets, some similar, some not included but fulfilled in Christ himself.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-29-12 1:35 am)
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Gibs:
"The Sabbath on earth according to Enoch was in sync with Heaven and was kept in Heaven before earth."
Gibs,
Would you please give your source for that statement?
BTW,
Is this Gary?
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Gibs, read this and tell me it was from heaven's eternity:
Ex 20: 8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
If the Sabbath is associated with creation, how could this be the eternal law of God, and further read this version of the 10 Commandments:
Deut 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.,,, 6“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. ... 12 “Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.
These are not words of permanency, not for previous ancestors, and only for a people who had been delivered from Egypt.
If the 10 Commandments are our guide, we can fornicate, but not adulterate, eh????
Last edited by bob_2 (01-29-12 5:33 am)
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cadge, I'll have to find which book of Enoch's that statement is in, don't have on comp but I assure you he stated that. Do you have his books?
In answer to how eternal are the commandments? They are as eternal as He is as they are a transcript of His Character of love and stand fast with Him eternally. Any other view is a try at escapement in trying to get out from under them and it cannot be done.
Ps 111:7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
Ps 111:8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.
Ps 111:9 He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name.
Ps 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
They are not grievious, they have become my love too since I invited Him in and cast out all else, the "house" was cleaned of all other masters and now He dwells within and my will has become His will and my love His love.
Paul calls that, Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
It was a secret among the Gentiles but was known among the Messianic Jew.
Bob, To break one is to break them all, fornication takes in all adultry the world reviles in today.
1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
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Gibs:
1. I can't talk with you if you consider the Book of Enoch part of the canon. Very few Christians consider that part of the inspired Bible.
2. Forever, eternal. So circumcision is still a requirement since it was declared forever.
3. Genesis 2 gives no command to man to keep the Sabbath, Sabbath is not even mentioned until Exodus 16. It was given to a special people until the Seed (Jesus Christ) should come. Also, no record of any one from Adam to the Exodus is the Sabbath even mentioned in the Bible.
4. Col 2:16, 17 says: 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
5. Lev 23 has the Sabbath listed as one of the JEWISH festivals. Do you keep all the other festivals and the new moon festivals that Isaiah says will be kept in heaven forever along with the Sabbath.?
Isaiah 66:23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD.
6. I am always amazed when the SDA church declares the rest of the Evangelical Churches with their scholars headed to hell because they do not keep the Sabbath. I studied in SDA schools but I distinctly remember not being pointed to Acts through Jude as much as the OT and the four Gospels. The New Covenant doesn't begin until after Christ's death. Yes, He kept the Sabbath as a good Jew was required to do, along with the Festivals and animal sacrifices, are you suggesting, since Christ did this, all should be kept because Christ did????
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Gibs Wrote:
In answer to how eternal are the commandments? They are as eternal as He is as they are a transcript of His Character of love and stand fast with Him eternally. Any other view is a try at escapement in trying to get out from under them and it cannot be done.
The statement that the commandments are the transcript of god's character really confuses me Gibs. Is this fact found someplace in scripture? God gave man a whole lot of commands. Are all of them included in his character? If you don't think they all are then how would you sort them out as to the ones that do fit His character? If you are merely limiting His character to the 10 commands I would have to conclude that God has a very limited character and needs to be scrutinized by His children. On the other hand if you mean all the commands God has ever given then I would say you have tried to escape by trying to get out from under them and it cannot be done.
Last edited by Louie (01-30-12 1:45 pm)
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For all old posters I am formerly bob. I think Louie is less confusing for all posters to recognize. Now bob-2 can be totally bob.
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Louie,
And thanks for making it easier to not have to sort out which Bob.
On the 10 commandments it's just that we know it is His Law of Love, His expression of that Love. What I like about it is since Jesus made it so He can come and dwell within, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory" and this becomes reality when we fully repent and surrender all and our "spiritual house" cleaned of all the old masters within, then He is invited in and takes up abode in us.
Then it is our will is His will and our love is His love. That law of love now is in our hearts too and none are now no longer galling.
I know many don't like the Sabbath. To me it is the window in time He comes to tabernacle with us and count us as His own. I also believe He sheds light upon us at that time needed for a closer and deeper walk and understanding with Him. And yes I love to come and be in His Presence in that special window of time. Really it is a festive time for spiritual revival and strength for another week. It is a day of rest from worldly labor and gain and our own pleasures to also a Spiritual rest for the soul.
On the keeping and not casting out any of the commandments this is for all who read this, take heed to what Jesus Christ Himself said.
Mt 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The concerning part I've underlined and all are His Who gave it in the first place, for we know all things were by him etc.
1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
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Gibs, have you studied the 2 Covenants and the Abrahamic Promise? It is about our salvation:
Luke 24 : 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled [completed] that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
Does God change?
Heb 8:7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people ... 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Gal 4: 21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”[e]28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”[f] 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
2 Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
Last edited by bob_2 (01-30-12 3:19 pm)
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Louie,
And thanks for making it easier to not have to sort out which Bob.
On the 10 commandments it's just that we know it is His Law of Love, His expression of that Love. What I like about it is since Jesus made it so He can come and dwell within, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory" and this becomes reality when we fully repent and surrender all and our "spiritual house" cleaned of all the old masters within, then He is invited in and takes up abode in us.
Then it is our will is His will and our love is His love. That law of love now is in our hearts too and none are now no longer galling.
I know many don't like the Sabbath. To me it is the window in time He comes to tabernacle with us and count us as His own. I also believe He sheds light upon us at that time needed for a closer and deeper walk and understanding with Him. And yes I love to come and be in His Presence in that special window of time. Really it is a festive time for spiritual revival and strength for another week. It is a day of rest from worldly labor and gain and our own pleasures to also a Spiritual rest for the soul.
On the keeping and not casting out any of the commandments this is for all who read this, take heed to what Jesus Christ Himself said.
Mt 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.The concerning part I've underlined and all are His Who gave it in the first place, for we know all things were by him etc.
1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
Hi Gibs, Yes God does change. I refere you to Bob's post. You cannot deny the changes God made when He introduced the New Covenant.
You referred to the 10 commandments as the law of love. I would challenge you on that stand. The 10 have nothing to do with love. They are all about duty. Duty to God and duty to man. So many times we use the status Quo instead of thinking out what something is really saying. Churches use the status quo with the tithing requirement and if they would go back and study the Israelite system it was nothing like what is preached today. We also do the status quo in our weekly services. Someone started a ritual and it carries on without thought. The 10 Commandments were an incomplete set of rules given only to the Israelites. They were an overview of what God expected of His special Children. The book of the law contained the law of love. Leviticus 19:18
“‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.
Deuteronomy 6:5
Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
So many people take for granted what someone else says. For years I did the same thing until I resigned myself to seek truth for myself. I stopped listening to those who were just mimicking their peers and parents and delved into scripture for the truth.
Then you quoted Matt 5:17-19, verses that I use to say the opposite of what you are teaching. Remember Jesus was talking to the Israelites,Jews if you will, and he was telling them that He it was not His purpose to change any laws until all was fulfilled. So, He was saying things at some point would change, but not now. He wouldn't change anything until all was fulfilled. Now think about this Gibbs, when was the law changed? Adventists admit the law was changed at the Cross. They tell us that the ceremonial laws were done away with. Ellen White agrees with this conclusion. The problem is that Jesus was referring to the Torah or the complete law God gave to the children of Israel. No where does scripture tell us that it was only the ceremonial part of the law that was excluded. In fact the Bible does not break the law down into segments such as ceremonial, civil, and moral. that is also a man made status quo. Jesus either changed all the law or none of it on the Cross. Paul says all of it. Hebrews says all of it. John in 1Jn 3:19-22 says all of it. All I ask of you and all who read this post is to study for yourself a few verses from any Bible and see how the Holy Spirit is leading you.
I too believe the law of love is in our hearts. That law is found in 1Jn 3:19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
I pray you too will take this to heart and I pray it helps. Louie/Bob
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Louie,
What these mean to me may not be what they mean to you I do not know. Jesus made it clear He did not change one jot or tittle and for any to teach breaking them was a dire thing indeed. I think I placed those verses.
The law of love, the two parts first one to God and the second part to our fellow man is spelled out in full in the 10. They are as they have always been in the heavenly Ark of the Covenant and never ever will there be a time they will not.
I can never agree that God ever changes, if He did how far could you trust him?
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Mt 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Mt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mt 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mt 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mt 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
The way the "new age theology" has the new covenant to mean nulifies Jesus statement that but few will find that "strait" gate and narrow way to such a broad way that instead of few finding salvation it would be the few who wouldn't. We are living in a world gone so wicked proves that assumption dead wrong.
Faith based on truth will have the works of salvation.
Faith based on presumption comes up with nothing and that is what the "new age theology" is, presuption.
The very extreme of "new age theology" is universalism, even those of the second resurrection will after so much burning are going to be admitted.
We only go this way once, get it right or we have struck out and there is no reason for that as the way is made so plain, so simple but requiries death of self and most fire right up and say no way hosea. When it is, We must die to live and that death is of the old man that we may put on the new one born from above, being born again and few will ever come to it.
When it happens then the mystery, Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Then the overcoming power dwells within and one with Christ, alive in Him and dead to sin. All need to read the full chapter of Rom 6:
1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
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Bob,
The Royal law is eternal and the ceremonial law is what met it's fulfillment when the true sacrifice was made for all sin beginning with Adam to the last that will come. None needed to have been lost but most will be as they will not come and repent and die of self and be born again from above.
Now the law of sacrifices is the only thing that was done away with, that did not touch in any way the Royal Law or it is also called The Law of Liberty, that is the law all will be judged by. Abolished? No it is still right there shinning out the opened door of the Heavenly, Re 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
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