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#201 08-02-14 7:42 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel

Blindness or Light?

It is time for the last church, meaning all in Laodicea and especially the Advent Community, to move out of their darkness and into the light of the Gospel.  This need for fresh eyes to see the Gospel and understand the doctrine of the NC Sabbath is underscored by the healing of the man born blind in John 9. 

John 9:5  Jesus said: “I am the Light of the world.”

This chapter and the one that follows, John 10, features the active and reformed NC Sabbath of Christ.  Here is where the SDA’s, and all others must go, -- to Jesus, in the Gospels, in order to understand the NC doctrine of the Sabbath.

Bob, you need to take a step back and reconsider your dubious views.  The Sabbath doctrine of NCT is utter nonsense.  It is no improvement over the SDA error, which actually reflects the Sabbath views of Jesus’ enemies, not Christ.  Why not go directly to Jesus in the Gospels and learn from him?

Matt. 10:24  “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.

The fact of the matter is that no one in the Adventist Community has any idea how to define or teach the NC Sabbath.  (Nor are thy interested in finding additional truth.)  The Sabbath doctrine is much more complicated than the 7th day versus the 1st day.  It is time for the SDA’s to grow up and stop acting like the unbelieving, legalistic, Jews.

What the Adventist Community needs is more truth, not more error.  NCT is more error.  However, rejoice!  The genuine NC doctrine of the 7th Day Sabbath has been discovered and articulated for all to see.  I suggest you and others take a close, serious, look.  Don’t make the Jewish mistake of pretending to see and understand theology, when you are really blind, clueless, and wrong.  Such foolish games are spiritual suicide.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

Bob the blind said:  Tom Norris, I may have asked this before but I'll ask it again. When did the New Covenant begin?

Tom replied:  Yes.  You have made this incorrect point many times.  You think the Gospel started AFTER THE CROSS.  Thus rendering Jesus Sabbath teaching only for the OC Jews and not the Church.  Slick move.  I get what you are trying to do.  It is nothing more than stubborn, anti-Gospel, blasphemy.  You are not for Christ, but against him.

Luke 11:23 “He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters.

Bob, it is obvious that you are trying to find theological justification for ignoring what Christ teaches about the 7th day Sabbath in the Gospels.  Why are you at war with Jesus and his Word?  Why do you ignore Christ and try to instruct him?   That is all wrong.  You need to listen and learn from him, through the Gospels.

THIS is the problem with the SDA’s and all organized religion in Laodicea; few pay any attention to what Christ actually teaches.  Which is why no church or denomination has a correct view of the NC Sabbath.  NONE!  Not even the SDA’s, much less the NCT crowd. 

The time has come for all in the church pay attention to what Jesus teaches in the Gospels.  Most have no idea what he teaches, starting with the SDA’s that are clueless to the Gospel doctrines of Christ, which is why they are so wrong about so much, including the Sabbath doctrine, for which they must repent.

As for the “start” of the NC:  The Gospel paradigm was conceived long before the earth was created, however, for all practical purposes, it officially started when Jesus was born and the angels rejoiced.  Were the Angels glad about the OC?  No.  They rejoiced that the “Good News” of the Gospel was now going to be known by mankind through Christ, the Son of God.  The Gospel, in the form of Christ, had come to earth to save mankind.

Luke 2:4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David,

Luke 2:5 in order to register along with Mary, who was engaged to him, and was with child.

Luke 2:6 While they were there, the days were completed for her to give birth.

Luke 2:7 And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.

Luke 2:8  In the same region there were some shepherds staying out in the fields and keeping watch over their flock by night.

Luke 2:9 And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened.

Luke 2:10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;

Luke 2:11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Luke 2:12 “This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”

Luke 2:13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,

Luke 2:14 “Glory to God in the highest,
    And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.”

Christmas, even though the date of Dec 25 is way off, is the start of the NC.  THIS is why the Angels sang.  Because the NC was replacing the OC.  While Jesus was born under the OC law, he did not stay under it.  In fact, he denied and broke it as he introduced the NC Gospel to the Jews and then to the world through the writings of the apostles. 

So the cross was not the start of the Gospel, but the inauguration of this remarkable paradigm.  Do not confuse the two.  What Jesus teaches in the Gospels is for the church.  These NC books were written by the apostles long after the cross to capture the original and authentic Gospel teachings and sayings of Christ.  Our salvation depends on how we react to the words of Christ in the Gospels.

The Gospels represent the NC words and doctrines of Christ for those that are being saved.  For anyone to claim, like you have done, that Jesus does not teach the Gospel, in the Gospels, --well—they have lost their minds and their souls.  No need for further discussion with those that refuse to accept the authority or correctness of the Gospels, pretending they are not truth for the church and can be ignored.  Such are blind and deaf to truth.

Bob, you are playing the same game as Marcion.  He too, discounted and ignored most of the Gospels in favor of Paul’s letters.  Thus he crafted his own, very different and much smaller NT from what we have today.  He also embraced a very anti-Semitic Christ, -repudiating what the original apostles wrote and taught in the Gospels.  He was correctly called a heretic by the church fathers.

Many today also pick and choose whatever the like from the Bible, creating their own worthless view of the Gospel Story.  Such dishonest, incompetent, and convoluted hermeneutics can only lead to one false doctrine after another.  Look around; all is chaos in the church.

Gospel truth, which was written by the power of the Spirit, is not what we manipulate it to be, but what God and Christ declare it to be in the Gospels.  Anyone, like you Bob, that ignores and repudiates the Gospel words of Christ, also repudiates the Holy Spirit, and is in fact fighting the Spirit by blaspheming the Word. 

To deny the written Words of Christ in the Gospels, and to change the Gospel Story, is to deny the Spirit that helped write these ancient words.  By doing so, you have cut yourself off from mercy and salvation.  This is the unpardonable sin.

Luke 12:8  “And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God;

Luke 12:9 but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.

Luke 12:10 “And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.

If you want Eternal Life, I strongly suggest that you stop “speaking against” Christ and his Word, allowing the Spirit to direct you to listen to what Jesus teaches in the Gospels.  There can be no salvation apart from Christ’s teachings in the Gospels.  What he teaches is Gospel Truth, including what he teaches about the Sabbath.

John 16:13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

John 16:14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Mark 9:7 Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!”

Bob the blind said:  Why is that important? (When the NC began) Jesus was the perfect sacrifice and obeyed the law he was born under as stated here:

Gal 4:4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.

If you don't believe Jesus had to obey the Mosaic Law, that he was born under, we can stop conversing about the topic. We will never have the meeting of the minds.

Tom replied to the blind man Bob:  Let’s stop this discussion now, because there is zero chance we will agree on the Gospel or the Sabbath.  You are so confused and befuddled as to be comical.  You want to find a way to ignore and refute what Jesus teaches in the Gospels; I do not.  I want to understand and follow what Jesus teaches.  Your view is fatal.

Pay attention:  Jesus is much greater than Moses, the Temple, or the OC law.  The very fact you think otherwise is telling.  Jesus did not have to obey the laws of Judaism, and in fact he refused to do so, which outraged the Jews.  Jesus not only refused to obey the OC; he dared try to change it into the NC.

Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

Bob quoted Jesus in Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.  That happened at His death.

Tom replied:  Ha!  You don’t know what you are quoting or saying.  So you think “Heaven and Earth” passed away at the cross?  This is what you just said.  But it makes no sense.  You talk gibberish.  What you claim is not even what the verse says, proving that you need new and improved eyes, because the ones you have are broken.

Bob the blind blasphemer said:  From the Resurrection to His Ascension not one word is mentioned about the Sabbath that you put such import on.  The thing you don't understand is the Gospels were pre New Covenant.

Tom replied:  After the resurrection, Jesus did not repudiate what he taught before the cross.  Why would you think so?  Jesus was still the Lord of the NC Sabbath after the resurrection and there is no basis to say otherwise. 

It is clear that you don’t like what Jesus teaches in the Gospels about the Sabbath.  So you invent a fraudulent hermeneutic to make it all go away.  Such behavior is not calculated to find Gospel Truth, but to obscure it, which you do at every opportunity.  Sad.

There are scores of verses in the Gospels where Jesus teaches and defends his active and reformed NC doctrine of the Sabbath FOR THE CHURCH.  This cannot be denied.  Your attempt to make these Gospel passages moot is stubborn blasphemy and fatal error. 

For anyone to claim that the Gospels are “pre-NC” is absurd, even insane, especially since they were written long after the cross by the apostles.  The OT is “pre-NC.”  NOT THE NC GOSPELS.  The Gospels represent the essence of the NC, even the very Gospel teachings, sayings, and words of Christ that are necessary for salvation.  So the Gospels are not, not, not, “pre-NC” as you foolishly claim.

Bob, I have never heard any professed Christian make such an outrageous and disrespectful claim about the Gospels and the teachings of Christ.   There is not one serious scholar in any age that would agree with your impossible view about the words of Christ in the Gospels.  You are truly blind from birth, having been raised in the darkness of cultic Adventism, refusing to ask for healing.  Pitiful.  And fatal.

Bob the blind said:  His Kingdom and New Covenant could not have begun before His sacrifice was completed and there was blood for the Gospel truth to forgive.

Tom replied:  Wrong.  Bob, you never fail to misunderstand, ignore, and twist the scriptures to fit your false view of the Sabbath.  However, the Gospels show that Jesus was clearly forgiving sins BEFORE the cross, which makes your claim absurd, proving that you don’t know what you are talking about.

Mark 2:3 And they came, bringing to Him a paralytic, carried by four men.

Mark 2:4 Being unable to get to Him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above Him; and when they had dug an opening, they let down the pallet on which the paralytic was lying.

Mark 2:5 And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

Mark 2:6 But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,

Mark 2:7 “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”

Mark 2:8 Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts?

Mark 2:9 “Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’?

Mark 2:10 “But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” — He *said to the paralytic,

Mark 2:11 “I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home.”

Bob, when are you going to accept the Gospel Story as written by the apostles?  This is your problem; you do not believe the Gospels.  You do not accept or believe what Christ teaches in the Gospels.  You are not a believer but an “unbeliever.”  Jesus was in the business of forgiving sin before the cross.  This cannot be denied.  So why do you deny the Gospel Story?

Bob, it is clear to me that you have very little idea of the content of the Gospels, much less the theological details of the teachings of Christ.  (This goes for all SDA’s) How can you not know that Jesus went around and routinely forgave people their sins, BEFORE THE CROSS?  What is the matter with you to claim he could not forgive sins before the cross?  Have you lost your mind?  Why can’t you understand and believe the Gospel Story? 

Answer:  You are as blind as were the Jews that also hated the Gospel and the NC Sabbath of Christ.  There is no forgiveness or healing for those who refuse to confess their false, blind, views.

Luke 7:47 “For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.”

Luke 7:48 Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.”

Luke 7:49 Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?”

Jesus teaches that those, like you Bob, who reject his active and reformed doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath are lost; they remain unforgiven, refusing to give up their theological errors and repent. 

John 9, 10 = NC Sabbath Debate

Note that the term blind, as used in John 9, is a direct and specific reference to those that rejected the NC Sabbath of Christ.  This cannot be denied.  Read the chapter and see for yourself.  In fact, the man that was born blind in this story is not only the one that received his site, but he also embraced Jesus as the Messiah, with his active and working Sabbath doctrine.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

Let all understand that these words of Christ were spoken during a Sabbath debate between Jesus and the Pharisees.  Jesus calls those that rejected his Gospel Sabbath BLIND.  His words still ring out today for those that have ears to hear and eyes to see truth.  But to those that are blind, like you Bob, remain in the dark, unforgiven and hopeless.  So Bob, how does it feel to be on same side as the Pharisees?  They were very anti-Christ, and so too are you today.

Jesus teaches in John 9 that those who reject his active and reformed view of the Sabbath are not following Christ or God.  Thus, with the Sabbath debate in mind, Christ introduces the parable of the Good Shepherd in John 10.  This passage is part of the great Sabbath debate in John 9.  Few have any idea that the Good Shepherd motif is a NC Sabbath parable.

John 10:1  “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.

John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

Who today is following the NC Sabbath of the Good Shepherd?  Not the Sunday keepers.   Not the SDA’s.  Not the NCT crowd, with its’ No Day / Every Day Sabbath confusion.  Where is the NC Sabbath of Christ?  The one that caused so much division and debate in the Gospels?

The time has come for Christ to heal the blind Laodicean Church, IF THEY WILL REPENT.  It is time for those that have been born blind to ask for Gospel mercy.  It is time for the church to go to Christ, in the Gospels, and follow him.  Starting with his active and reformed, NC, Sabbath, which is the sign of the genuine Good Shepherd.

Bob, you don’t know Christ, much less understand his Gospel theology.  He is a stranger to you and to the SDA’s that raised you.  Few people know Christ today, which is why there is no correct doctrine of the Sabbath being promoted by any denomination in the world, least of all by the confused, OC minded, SDA’s.  This must change and it will change as soon as the genuine Gospel is embraced by a humble, repentant, church.

Jesus & the Sabbath

A good place to start searching for truth is for all to try and comprehend what Jesus, the Good Shepherd, teaches about the 7th day Sabbath.  Many, like Bob, are blind to the Gospel and thus they can’t comprehend the teachings of Christ, which includes the famous Good Shepherd parable, which is all about the NC Sabbath of Christ.  Few know this Gospel fact. 

**(Show of virtual hands:  How many knew that the parable of the Good Shepherd was about Jesus’ active and reformed 7th day Sabbath?  Anyone?)

Luke 8:10 And He said, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.

Today, as the Spirit moves on the earth, it is re-directing honest minds back to the Gospel teachings of Christ and away from the legions of worthless tradition and myth that have overwhelmed the Laodiccan church.  Let all return to the genuine source of Gospel Truth, which is Jesus in the Gospels.

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Whatever Jesus teaches about the Sabbath in the Gospels, is what the church must follow.  Period.

Bob the Blind Blasphemer said:  Jesus never taught a Reformed Sabbath, not indicated it would be part of His Kingdom or New Covenant.

Tom replied:  Only a blind person could read the Gospels and conclude that Jesus, the self-proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath, “never taught a reformed Sabbath” for the church.  To take such a position is to ignore scores of passages where Jesus debates and defends his new and very strange ideas about the 7th day Sabbath. 

In fact, this is the major reason why the Jews sent Jesus to the cross.  They hated his Gospel view of the Sabbath, (just like you Bob), which was a reflection of his NC views about the Priesthood, Law, and Temple.  Then to make matters worse, Jesus claimed God supported these new ideas, which further enraged the Jews.  No doubt you would have rejected Christ in the 1st century, just like you are doing today in the 21st.  You are a true unbeliever.  Sad.

Bob the blind unbeliever said:  I have asked you many times, yet you mock and sneer.

Tom replied:  I have asked you many times to repent and embrace the genuine Gospel of Christ, which includes what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath.  But you refuse, claiming that NCT is truth for the church, with its’ No Day / Every Day Sabbath.   But what you call truth is utter nonsense and double-talk that deserves to be exposed as garbage.  Sorry.  NCT should be mocked for all to see, and I make no apologies for exposing it as worthless, anti-Gospel drivel.

Bob the blind said:  You are the one that cannot show where the New Covenant began, that Jesus instructed "YOUR" Reformed Sabbath.

Tom replied:  Jesus is the one that invented and taught a NC doctrine of the Sabbath.   The Gospels are clear on this point.  So why do you deny what is so clearly written?  I have no authority to invent any doctrine, nor is this what is taking place.  It is NCT that has invented a new, personal view of the Sabbath, in the 1970’s, which has no support from the OT, NT, or from the long history of the church.  An Every Day Sabbath is absurd.

As for the start of the NC:  When Jesus came to earth, the angels sang for Gospel joy.  Why?  Because the NC had started in the person of Christ!  It was “game on!”  Deny this, and you deny the Gospel Story.

Bob the Blind said:  Tom, You mock me with "Bob the blind" but you are a false Prophet to teach what you do.

Tom said:  What kind of “false prophet” points everyone to the words, sayings, and teachings of Christ in the Gospels?  How can such a position be false?  We have very different definitions of what is true and false, as well as hermeneutics, of which you are clueless.

Those that reject the Gospels, and try to confuse others about Gospel truth, should be mocked and exposed as wolves for all the sheep to see.  You make it easy because you and NCT are so dismissive of the Gospels, which contain the eternal and infinite words of Christ.  NCT is built on sand, and so too the Sabbath doctrine of the rebellious SDA’s.

Woe to those that ignore or repudiate Christ and what he teaches in the Gospels.  Woe to those today that fight the Gospel, and promote false doctrine in the name of God.  They are doomed.

Matt. 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Matt. 7:24  “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Mark 9:42   “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.

Blind Bob said:  You are an army of one that falsely teaches that the New Covenant began before the blood of forgiveness was available by Him on the cross. If we can not agree on this part of the Gospel, we are wasting our words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tom replied:  Bob, how do know anything?  You are a blind man from birth.  You live in the dark, having only heard about light, but so far you are unable to process it.  You are blind.  You can’t see close or far.  So how can you be so critical of what you cannot see or understand?

Bob, we don’t agree on much of anything, least of all Hermeneutics or even the authority of the Gospels, which you have declared not to be NC.  If you continue to pretend that Jesus words in the Gospels are NOT NC, and were NOT meant for the church, you are NOT really a Christian in any sense of the word.  No one that rejects Jesus Gospel words, sayings, and teachings, is a follower of Christ.

Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

So yes, you are wasting your words, except to the extent this discussion helps others comprehend the absurdity and impossibility of this popular doctrine about a No Day / Every Day Sabbath.  This farce is no improvement over the SDA error about the 4th Commandment.  Thus the blind are leading the blind away from truth.

Question:  Why have so many former SDA’s, like Richard Fredericks, embraced this NCT nonsense? 

Answer:  Laodiceans do not know Christ or what he really teaches.  Nor do they seem to care.  Rather they just use Christ’s name to make a good living.  Today, religion is big business, full of money, power, and perks.  Those in charge love themselves, not Christ.  The love of Jesus, and the Gospel teachings of Jesus, are not part of the equation.  And neither is Gospel salvation, which is why there no focus on eschatology. 

The time is coming when religious leaders will be judged by how well they understand the Gospel teachings of Jesus; not by how little, which seems to be the case today.

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

For those that are honest and literate, this discussion has destroyed NCT. With its’ anti-Christ doctrine of a No Day / Every Day Sabbath of spiritual rest.  Only a blind person would think otherwise.

Bob the blind said:  Oh, one last thing Tom, the general statement that Christ gives about "being blind" are not in the context of a Reformed Sabbath. You put that proof text in, out of context, you can continue, but I think most see though it and "he who has an ear", also being out of context to the subject at hand.

Tom replied: The NT teaches that most are blind when it comes to the Gospel, and thus few will ever find Eternal Life.  More specifically, Jesus teaches that the Jews were “blind” to reject his active and reformed doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.  So Bob, you are very wrong to think that the NC Sabbath has no basis or context in the Gospels, or that I am taking passages out of context to promote false doctrine.

Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

2Cor. 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

1John 2:11 But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

I agree that not every mention of the word blind is a specific reference to the Sabbath.  For example in the above three passages, the first can be assumed because Jesus calls his doctrine of the Sabbath light and truth from God.  While it is not a specific reference to any Gospel doctrine, it includes all Gospel doctrine, of which the NC Sabbath is a major and fundamental teaching of Christ.

The second passage is speaking about a person who I hates instead of loves, the latter being a fundamental doctrine of Christ.  This passage is not about the Sabbath.

The third passage in John 9 is specifically and exclusively about the NC vs. OC Sabbath.  This is the context.  Nothing else.

Considering the fact that the entire Laodicean Church has been judged BLIND, -- this is a big topic that needs to be better understood.  No spiritually blind person will ever be saved.  More to the point, Jesus teaches that to misunderstand his active and reformed Gospel Sabbath, is to remain spiritually blind and unsaved.  In other words, the doctrine of the Sabbath is very important to understand.  Get it wrong, and you will be judged blind by Christ, doomed in the Judgment.

Origin of the Spiritually Blind and Deaf Terminology

This “general language” about “having eyes that do not see…and “ears that do not hear” was a reference to the stubborn Jews in Moses day.  Jesus knew this.

Deut. 29:2  And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, “You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land;

Deut. 29:3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders.

Deut. 29:4 “Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.

Such language continues throughout the OT because the Jews refused to be faithful to their God.  They lusted after false gods of stone that could not see or hear, and thus they became like them.

Ezek. 12:2 “Son of man, you live in the midst of the rebellious house, who have eyes to see but do not see, ears to hear but do not hear; for they are a rebellious house.

The point (and pun) was made that those who worship such mindless gods would themselves become unable to see, hear, or think.  Here is the ancient and original version of “by beholding we become changed.”


Psa. 135:15 The idols of the nations are but silver and gold,
    The work of man’s hands.

Psa. 135:16 They have mouths, but they do not speak;
    They have eyes, but they do not see;

Psa. 135:17 They have ears, but they do not hear,
    Nor is there any breath at all in their mouths.

Psa. 135:18 Those who make them will be like them,
    Yes, everyone who trusts in them.

When Jesus speaks about having ears to hear or eyes to see, his Jewish listeners know he is referencing Moses, David, and others who also called out the Jews for their stubborn, mindless, idolatry.  Through this well-known reference, Jesus was appealing to the Jews and later to the Gentiles through the Gospels, to use their minds to understand the real God that had sent him to earth to save mankind

Like today, many were too far-gone to comprehend the Gospel Truth.  Their minds, ears, and eyes are like stone.  Gospel Truth cannot penetrate rock.


Messianic Context

The healing of the blind and lame was viewed as an eschatological event; a time when the Messiah would come to save Israel.  Jesus claims to be the fulfillment of such passages by his spectacular, public, healings, many of which were performed on the Sabbath for all to see.

Is. 29:18 On that day the deaf will hear words of a book,
    And out of their gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind will see.

Is. 29:19 The afflicted also will increase their gladness in the LORD,
    And the needy of mankind will rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.


Is. 35:4 Say to those with anxious heart,
    “Take courage, fear not.
    Behold, your God will come with vengeance;
The recompense of God will come,
But He will save you.”

Is. 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind will be opened
    And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped.

Is. 35:6 Then the lame will leap like a deer,
And the tongue of the mute will shout for joy.
For waters will break forth in the wilderness
    And streams in the Arabah.

The healings of Christ were proof that he was the Messiah.  The fact he showcased his healings on the Sabbath, also demonstrates that he was trying to make a point about the 4th Commandment.  That point was hardly that Every Day would now be a spiritual Sabbath, much less so that the church could worship every Sunday.  NCT is only for the blind. 


Blind To Truth

This language about being blind, or having ears that will not hear, is used in both the OT and NT to describe someone who does not see God’s truth.  In fact, Jesus used parables to explain the Gospel because the Jews had become so confused and blind about their mission.

Is. 56:10 His watchmen are blind,
    All of them know nothing.
    All of them are mute dogs unable to bark,

Matt. 13:13 “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

Acts 7:51  “You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Matt. 13:15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
    WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
    AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
    OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
    HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
    AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
    AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

Matt. 13:16 “But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.

Matt. 17:8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.

What is the “Truth” about the Sabbath?  It depends on whom you ask and what they were taught.  However, the “truth” about the Sabbath is what Jesus teaches in the Gospels.  When the church decides to return to Christ, and take Gospel Truth seriously, they will discover the genuine doctrine of the Sabbath.  Until then, they remain blind for all to see.

Parables for the Blind

Jesus routinely concluded his Gospel teachings sessions with the saying about having ears to hear.  It was one of his favorite parables.  Which includes what he teaches about his reformed and active 7th day Sabbath.

Luke 8:8 “Other seed fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great.” As He said these things, He would call out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Matt. 13:3  And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, “Behold, the sower went out to sow;

Matt. 13:4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.

Matt. 13:8 “And others fell on the good soil and *yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.

Matt. 13:9 “He who has ears, let him hear.”

Matt. 13:10   And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

Matt. 13:11  Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

Matt. 13:12 “For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.

Matt. 13:13 “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Matt. 13:14 “In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
    ‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
    YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

Matt. 13:15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
    WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
    AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
    OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
    HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
    AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
    AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

Over and over Jesus reinforces his Gospel teaching by using the well-known reference to ears.  His words still apply to us today, along with everything else the head theologian of the church teaches.  The SDA’s need to understand that not only have they misunderstood the Gospel Sabbath, if they don’t soon make the necessary correction, they will lose everything they have worked so hard to build.  Other will complete Sabbath Reform and proclaim the Gospel correctly.

Matt. 13:12 “For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.

If the SDA’s have any hearing left in their feeble ears, they had better listen to Jesus.  This saying of Christ, and others that he teaches, like the fatalness of disunity, had better penetrate their stone brains or else.

Matt. 12:25   Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.

Is anyone listening?


Ears To Hear the Gospel

An examination of the context in Mark 4, that I routinely quote, shows that this reference INCLUDES what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath.  (See Mark 2 & 3).  Thus the parable about the “ears,” which is used many times in the Gospels by Jesus, includes Jesus Sabbath teaching.  It does not exclude this featured teaching of Christ, as you claim.

Mark 4:9 And He was saying, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

I repeat, the context shows that Jesus had already articulated his active and reformed NC Sabbath in the previous chapters, which means this passage encompasses those prior teachings.

Misleading / Healing the Blind

Jesus teachings and parables about the blind have their origin in ancient Judaism.  In the OC, there were rules about the blind.  For example, it was against the law to mislead a blind person or take advantage of their sightless condition.

Deut. 27:18  ‘Cursed is he who misleads a blind person on the road.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

Of course, in the Gospel Story Jesus is the one being accused of taking advantage of the blind by leading them to break the 4th Commandment and teaching them false doctrine.  However, Jesus turns the tables and applies this law to the religious leaders; which he publicly calls “blind” for rejecting his Gospel Sabbath.   Jesus is saying that the religious leaders were misleading the (blind) people away from God. 

Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

To be called “blind” by Jesus is a fate worse than death.  While legions of the spiritually blind will be healed by Christ and thus be saved, no on who remains blind to the Gospel will be saved.  Although we are all born spiritually blind, unless we get healed by Christ, we cannot see or embrace the Gospel, much less the Gospel Sabbath.

Healing the Blind is Eschatological

As predicted in the OT, the healing of the blind was a sign of the Messiah through the power of the Gospel for those that believe.   Those Jews that refused to believe the Gospel, and the NC Sabbath of Christ, were called blind and unforgiven by Christ.


Luke 4:18 “THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
    BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
    HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
    AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
    TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

Luke 7:22 And He answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM.

Jesus could not heal the spiritual blindness of the Pharisees, nor could he get them to understand or accept his active and reformed NC doctrine of the Sabbath.  Christ responded by calling them blind and unforgiven.

Matt. 23:24 “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

The term “blind” means spiritual darkness and doom.  It is the opposite of being in the light and enjoying salvation.

John 3:19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

John 3:20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

John 3:21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

John 12:46 “I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.

The NC doctrine of the Sabbath, as taught by Christ in the Gospels, is LIGHT AND TRUTH for the church.  What a pity that so few today have a false and wrong view of the Gospel and the Sabbath.  No wonder the last church is called blind and naked, unsaved, and clueless about how to define the Gospel or the Sabbbath. 

How appropriate that Jesus claims to be the “light of the world” just before he heals the man born blind.  It is also appropriate that he prefaces this illegal Sabbath healing by claiming this situation was custom made to showcase God’s “works,” activity, and mercy, not his rest or law.  Jesus knew what he was doing.  He was about to teach the NC, Gospel Sabbath for those that could take it in.  This is what the 9th and 10th chapters of John are all about; the active and reformed Sabbath of Christ.

John 9:1  As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.

John 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?”

John 9:3 Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.

John 9:5 “While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”

Note the repeated emphasis on “work.”  4 X’s.  There is zero emphasis on rest or law keeping.  Today, the church is blind to the Gospel and the NC Sabbath of Christ.  Unless they repent and embrace the genuine Gospel, they are doomed. 

The NC Sabbath of Christ plays a central role in correct Gospel theology.  Only a blind and deaf person could miss this fact.


The Parable of the Good Shepherd is About the Sabbath

Let everyone understand the Gospel Story.  During the Sabbath debates in John 9 and 10, Jesus calls the Pharisees “blind” for refusing to embrace his active and reformed, NC view of the 7th day Sabbath.  Not only is the context clear, so too the parable of the Good Shepherd, which is also specifically linked to this debate over the Sabbath.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

John 10:1  “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.

John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

John 10:6 This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.

John 10:7  So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

John 10:8 “All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

John 10:9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

John 10:10 “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

John 10:11  “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

John 10:12 “He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.

John 10:13 “He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep.

John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,

John 10:15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

Few understand that this long passage in John 10 is the conclusion of the bitter Sabbath debate that started in chapter 9.  Where the NC Sabbath was rejected and the blind man that received his sight from Christ was excommunicated from Judaism for believing in Jesus and accepting his active, working, 7th day Sabbath. 

Today, only a (spiritually) blind person could read the Gospel Story and conclude that Jesus does not teach a doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath for the church.  Not only did he teach such theology, but also people were embracing it, much to the chagrin of the religious leaders that refused to believe.

John 9:26 So they said to him, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?”

John 9:27 He answered them, “I told you already and you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?”

John 9:28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but awe are disciples of Moses.

John 9:29 “We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where He is from.”

John 9:30 The man answered and said to them, “Well, here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes.

John 9:31 “We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.

John 9:32 “Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind.

John 9:33 “If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.”

John 9:34 They answered him, “You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?” So they put him out.

John 9:35  Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

John 9:36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”

John 9:37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.”

John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.

Here is a record of someone who embraced the active and reformed Sabbath of Christ, under persecution from the Jews.  The man born blind was given both physical and spiritual eyesight to comprehend the Gospel.  Few are so fortunate.


Most all in Laodicea were born blind and live in the dark.  This is why they fail to comprehend what is so clear and plain in the Word.  But the poor blind man admitted his darkness and was healed, allowed to see Gospel light.  Few admit to being blind and thus few are healed.

John 8:12  Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

Those that “follow” Christ, will also embrace what he teaches about the active and reformed 7th day Sabbath.  Only a blind fool would think otherwise.

In fact, in John 5, during another Sabbath Debate, Jesus teaches that those who listen to, and embrace, his active and reformed Gospel Sabbath will receive Eternal Life.  They will not be condemned in the Judgment Day.

John 5:24  “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

It is the greatest of mistakes to think Jesus does not teach a specific, NC doctrine of the Sabbath for the church.  In general, the church admits that there is a weekly Sabbath, even if they have not found the fully correct doctrine as yet.  NCT points to a false path, which does not lead to the New Jerusalem.

Let all understand, it is a serious problem to misunderstand the Gospel Sabbath of Christ, which all have done.  It is a sure sign that people do not know or understand Jesus or his Gospel, regardless what church they go to or what religious books they are reading.  There is NO ETERNAL LIFE for those that reject and repudiate the NC Sabbath of Christ.  The Gospels make this very clear.

Does the last Church Have Ears to Hear?

In Revelation, Jesus uses the familiar Gospel phrase about ears to hear a number of times.

Rev. 2:11 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’

Rev. 2:17 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.’

Over and over this phrase is used about the specific instruction from Christ to the various churches.  The last church, which is judged as being the worst, is totally blind to the Gospel, including the Sabbath.  Thus, they are told to repent for their many false doctrines, the Sabbath being the most obvious and public.  The active and reformed NC Sabbath doctrine is a part of this warning to Laodicea about listening to Christ.

Rev. 3:22 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

Today, there is not one church or denomination in the world that correctly comprehends the Gospel or the NC Sabbath.  Which is why Jesus judges the entire Laodicean Church BLIND and unsaved (naked).  This is the same term, (blind) he used in John 9, during the Sabbath debates with the Pharisees.   

This is not an accident.  In other words, the last church is called to repent for its false view of the Gospel Sabbath, among other errors.

The Laodicean Church has become like the 1st century Jews, They claimed to follow God, even as they rejected Christ and repudiated his Gospel teachings.  The Jews were ‘blind” to the Gospel and so too the Gentiles.  The record shows that both the Jews and Gentiles have spurned the Gospel and the last church era is the worst.  Sad.

Let all understand, when the genuine Gospel is preached in the last church, so too the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.  Such a strange and unfamiliar doctrine will have the same effect on the last church as it did for the blind, 1st century Jews.  This doctrine caused great debate and division about the law and Gospel, and so it will again. 

In hindsight, we can say that the SDA’s were hot on the trail of Gospel truth when they pushed forward their case for the 7th day Sabbath.  They were correct to understand that Sunday could not be correct Gospel doctrine.  But they made a huge blunder to think Jesus supports and teaches obedience to the 4th Commandment.  He does no such thing.  That was the position of his enemies that hated his active and working Sabbath.

Had the 1888 debates been allowed to honestly play out, either in Battle Creek or later in Takoma Park, it would have become obvious that the SDA’s hold a false view of the OC “schoolmaster” or “tutor” Sabbath.  Such a truthful discovery would have forced them to move forward to better understand the NC Sabbath, which is still on the 7th day. 

Gal. 3:23  But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Unfortunately, the 1888 debate was never allowed to reach any serious conclusion in Battle Creek, much less in Takoma Park, where the details were suppressed and covered up by the White Estate.  The hierarchical system of the SDA’s was so legalistic and controlling that the Gospel was never fully understood or accepted, preventing the discovery of the genuine Gospel Sabbath, which is currently being censored and shunned by all SDA media, including Spectrum. 

This is where things still stand today.  The SDA Sabbath is so OC that it is no long functional or sane.  Which is why million have left and more leave all the time.  Who wants to live under the law?  Few wish to be so foolish today.  We live in the era of the NC.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

Rev. 3:20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Rev. 3:21 ‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Rev. 3:22 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

It is time for the Advent Community, at least those with ears to hear and eyes to see, to repent for their many false doctrines.  The church needs to understand that they have incorrectly embraced the OC Sabbath of Moses and not the NC Sabbath of Christ.  This is where all Gospel Reform must start for SDAs, and then for all others. 

All SDA’s must repent; not only for their great error about the IJ, etc, but also for misunderstanding the Gospel, which features the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.  The SDA doctrine of the Sabbath is OC, legalistic, and anti-Christ.  It is time for zealous correction of this outrageous error.

Matt. 3:2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

The long overdue discovery and articulation of the correct doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath is paradigm shifting and prophetic.  It is a game changer for the blind, confused and self-destructing Advent Movement, and then for all others.  This seemingly new doctrine is a sign that the Good Shepherd is leading the Laodicean Church back to the original NC Sabbath; back to a Gospel path of truth and salvation.

When the correct doctrine of the NC Sabbath is understood and preached, so too, the genuine Gospel of Christ.  Let all that seek Eternal Life pay close attention to what Jesus teaches about his active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath.  This doctrine is critical for those in Laodicea to understand as it represents the genuine Gospel from the genuine Christ.

Let those that have “eyes to see” and “ears to hear” repent of their foolish errors, -- fully embracing the NC, with its active and guilt-free doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.

Is anyone listening?  Who today is looking for Gospel Truth?

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

Rev. 3:22 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism

Last edited by tom_norris (08-13-14 9:07 pm)

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#202 08-06-14 3:27 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel

Tom, your reference to Matt 10 has nothing about the Sabbath, only about Jesus as the shepard. You have never shown where Jesus teaches what you are a proponent of. If I am blind you are a false, long-winded prophet, that does not, and can not even find Scripture to support your position. The book I reviewed supported all it's positions from the Bible.

If I could ask a favor, please don't double paste your long epistles on my moderated thread. It is confusing to the reader and does not respond to the issues brought up in the book. I would appreciate you taking it down from my thread. Thanks.

John 9, says this, and they are not Jesus words:

"13 They brought to the Pharisees the man who had been blind. 14 Now the day on which Jesus had made the mud and opened the man’s eyes was a Sabbath. 15 Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. “He put mud on my eyes,” the man replied, “and I washed, and now I see.”

16 Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”"

John 10 says nothing about the Sabbath. At no time does Jesus instruct on the Sabbath or declare a new Reformed Sabbath. He does speak out about the Pharisaical rules as being overbearing. Jesus changes nothing in the Mosaic Law, but introduces the wine and bread at the last supper, the wine the blood of the new covenant.

The Sabbath rules Jesus was acting against were not God given rules, so how do you see His actions as new demands or law. They and the Jews were more angry He claimed to be God. Nothing could have been removed from the Mosaic Law until all was completed, at His crucifixion. Luke 24: 44 shows that Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law. What was next, the New Covenant.

Last edited by bob_2 (08-06-14 6:44 pm)

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#203 08-09-14 2:46 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel

Bob, it is evident that you still cannot see or hear the Gospel, even though you think there is nothing wrong with your eyes or ears.  This is the problem with the spiritually blind and deaf, they don’t know they are so dysfunctional.  They think they can see perfectly, better than Christ.  But they are deluded, which is why they see no reason to repent or embrace the Gospel.  Such are the blind and deaf.

Let’s see if Bob, a blind man, can hold an honest, rational, and sane discussion about the Gospel?  What points will Bob, the blind blasphemer, raise to defend his false and absurd views about the NC Sabbath?  Here comes more incoherent double-talk from the seeing and hearing impaired.

Bob the blind said:  Tom, your reference to Matt 10 has nothing about the Sabbath, only about Jesus as the Sheppard.

Tom replied:  Bob, you poor blind fool.  I knew you could not respond in an honest or functional manner.  This discussion about the Gospel is incomprehensible for you because of your bad attitude and spiritual blindness.  You live in a self-made world of delusion, darkness, and false doctrine, all calculated to keep you away from the light of the genuine Gospel of Christ. 

Mission accomplished.  You, like most all raised SDA, are unable to see or hear the teachings of the genuine Christ.  You are blind and deaf to the Gospel and the NC Sabbath of Christ, unable to hear, embrace, or process the Words of Christ.  Sad.

First, I never quoted Matthew 10, as you claim.  So your eyes are playing tricks on your brain, both of which are obviously broken.  Only a blind person would make such an off-point and incoherent statement.  It is clear that this discussion is beyond your capacity to comprehend.  The more you irrationally refute the teachings of Christ, the more broken and dark your mind becomes. 

Second; the passage in question is JOHN 10.  It is connected to John 9, which is a long Sabbath debate about the man born blind being healed on the 7th day.  John 10, which features the Good Shepherd, is a NC Sabbath parable that is part of this Sabbath debate between Jesus and the Pharisees.  THIS IS THE POINT.  Few people have any idea what is taking place in either John 9 or 10, which is why everyone has a false view of the NC Sabbath.

Third; Bob, your attempt to deny the Gospel facts contained in John 9 or 10 by brining up Matthew 10, --a passage that was never discussed, underscores your hopeless situation and your inability to comprehend this discussion about the Sabbath.  What is the matter with you?  Why can’t you follow this discussion?  Can’t you tell the difference between John 10 and Matthew 10?

Answer:  You truly are blind and deaf to the Gospel teachings of Christ.  The Word makes no sense to those choosing to live in the dark.  Had you been a 1st century Jew listening to Jesus teach the Gospel; there is no doubt that you would call him a “false, long winded, prophet.”  Even a Sabbath breaker.  You are an unbeliever, not a believer; a blind pretender, fuel for the fires of hell.

Bob the blind man said:  You have never shown where Jesus teaches what you are a proponent of.

Tom said:  This charge is absurd.  I am a “proponent” of what Jesus teaches.  Consequently, I have pointed out numerous passages where Christ clearly teaches an active, guilt-free, working Sabbath.  John 9 & 10 is a good example, but there are others, like John 5 and also many statements in Mark and the other Gospels.  But you deny the facts of these passages, pretending that Jesus failed to teach a NC Sabbath for the church.  Not only are you blind, you are following others who are also blind into the dark.

Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

While there are many passages in the Gospels where Jesus teaches his active and reformed, NC Sabbath, John 9 is one of the longest, extending into John 10 where the Good Shepherd is taught as a Sabbath parable.  Here Jesus clashes with the OC Jewish leaders about working on the 7th day.  Here is a great Sabbath debate over the 4th Commandment that cannot be ignored by anyone trying to understand what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath. 

While it is stunning that so many were, and still are, so wrong about Sunday, it is also stunning that the SDA’s could be correct about the 7th day, but so wrong as to what Jesus teaches about the 4th Commandment.  Every laodicean is going to be shocked when they find out they have been so wrong about so much, including and especially the doctrine of the Sabbath.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Bob the blind said:  If I am blind you are a false, long-winded prophet, that does not, and can not even find Scripture to support your position.

Tom replied:  Bob, there is no “if” about it.  When it comes to understanding the Gospel Story, you are a blind and deaf man; your head has turned into stone.  The fact you think otherwise is part of your problem. 

If Jesus could not make the blind Pharisees understand the Gospel, and he could not, what chance does Tom Norris have with those today equally committed to reject and refute Christ and his NC Sabbath?  Those that choose to remain in the dark cannot be forced to repent, much less understand or embrace Gospel light.  They will remain blind and in the dark.

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

Bob the blind said:  The book I reviewed supported all it's positions from the Bible.

Tom said:  Ha!  You need to re-read this thread.  (Perhaps there is a brail edition for the blind?) Tom Norris has exposed NCT as utter nonsense, for all to see.  NCT is theological garbage and outrageously false doctrine.  Only a blind person would say otherwise.

NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953

Bob the blind said:  If I could ask a favor, please don't double paste your long epistles on my moderated thread. It is confusing to the reader and does not respond to the issues brought up in the book. I would appreciate you taking it down from my thread. Thanks.

Tom replied:  Sorry, I don’t censor Gospel facts, much less so that NCT can try to masquerade as truth.  In fact, I will also post the last post on the Reformed Sabbath thread.  The honest in heart need to understand what Jesus teaches about the Gospel Sabbath.  Most are clueless.

Bob also wrote:  John 10 says nothing about the Sabbath. At no time does Jesus instruct on the Sabbath or declare a new Reformed Sabbath. He does speak out about the Pharisaical rules as being overbearing. Jesus changes nothing in the Mosaic Law, but introduces the wine and bread at the last supper, the wine the blood of the new covenant.

Tom said:  How can a man born blind, which is you Bob, understand the Gospels?  It is a real problem because you don’t understand what you are trying to read.  Only a blind person could deny that Jesus teaches an active and reformed doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath in the Gospels.  But this is who you are and this is why you can’t see. You are truly blind to the Gospel.  You need healing in the worst way.

Let all understand that Jesus’ mission was to CHANGE THE OC INTO THE NC.  This could not be done by obeying the OC, but only by breaking it, which Christ did on a regular basis.  Jesus purposely CHANGED the doctrine of the Sabbath for all to see in the Gospels.  Christ calls those that deny this theological fact blind.  This can be easily seen in John 9.

Bob the blind said:  The Sabbath rules Jesus was acting against were not God given rules, so how do you see His actions as new demands or law.

Tom replied:  False.  God made it clear to the Jews, under penalty of death, that they were not allowed to work on the 7th day.  However, the Priests were exempt from these 4th Commandment rules, and it is on this basis, combined with the Priesthood of All Believers, that Jesus creates a NC doctrine of the Sabbath for the church.

However, the OC made it clear that there was to be no work on the Sabbath.  This was God’s law, not a rule made up by the Pharisees as you foolishly claim.  So not only do you not understand the NC, you are also clueless and blind about how the OC functioned. 

Ex. 20:8  “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Ex. 20:9 “Six days you shall labor and do all your work,

Ex. 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.

Ex. 20:11 “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Ex. 31:14 ‘Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex. 31:15 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

Ex. 35:2  “For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.

Ex. 35:3 “You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day.”

On and on the record goes, proving that it was sinful for a typical Jew to work on the Sabbath.   Jesus was indeed breaking the Sabbath law with his public healing and instructions for people to carry their beds through town on the Sabbath.  He was not a Levite and thus he had no permission to heal (work) on the 7th day.  But Jesus knew what he was doing and why. You however are blind to the Gospel, unable to comprehend anything but darkness.

Bob the blind man said:  They and the Jews were more angry He claimed to be God. Nothing could have been removed from the Mosaic Law until all was completed, at His crucifixion. Luke 24: 44 shows that Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law. What was next, the New Covenant.

Tom replied:  Jesus claimed to be God during a heated debate over the Sabbath.  (See John 5) Moreover, he claimed that God, his father, instructed him to teach this new and active Sabbath, and that God himself works on the Sabbath.  THIS is why the Jews became so angry.  Not only did Jesus claim to be God’s Son, he also taught that God supports his new and radical view of the 7th day Sabbath.  Thus God was also a Sabbath Breaker.   This enraged the OC Jews.

John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19  Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Let all understand that Jesus learned his active and reformed Sabbath from God the Father.  Such a Sabbath point confused and enraged the Jews, just as the genuine Gospel Sabbath will also do today, if preached correctly.

It is time for all doctrinal double talk to stop. 

It is time for those that choose to seriously follow Christ to do so and stop pretending.

It is time for all to learn the Gospel directly from Christ, including what he teaches about the NC Sabbath, the Second Coming, Tithe, and all else.

Is anyone listening?

Deut. 29:4 “Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.

Ezek. 12:2 “Son of man, you live in the midst of the rebellious house, who have eyes to see but do not see, ears to hear but do not hear; for they are a rebellious house.

Rom. 11:8 just as it is written,
    “GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
    EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
    DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism & Adventist Reform

Last edited by tom_norris (08-11-14 8:53 pm)

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#204 08-09-14 11:44 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel

Tom, let me be clear.

1. Jesus said while on this earth:

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

2. The symbols of the New Covenant were not given until the Last Supper:

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

3. After His death and resurrection He said this to His followers:

Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

4. Then he tells His followers:

Luke 24: 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

5. Another thing that you contradict our very Savior is,  about additional knowledge to be given to His followers. Here is His promise and instruction. He does not say this and add, the Holy Spirit will only repeat words I have already said, He says, "I have much more to say to you."   You denigrate Paul and all the writing Apostles of the New Testament.

John 16: 2 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

Now if you follow each of those steps, you can not teach truthfully that Jesus  reformed the 4th Commandment when He is clear that it is unchangeable until all is fulfilled,  that did not happen until after His death as indicated in Luke 24: 44. Then he tells them to wait in Jerusalem until one of the symbols of the New Covenant/Kingdom is poured out on them, the Holy Spirit.

This shows how false your teaching is, I don't need to read another long drawn out epistle of Tom Norris when the Bible is plain  about the New Covenant's beginning. Please quick cluttering this thread with false teaching, without Bible sources. Jesus argued against the man made laws of the Pharisees but "NEVER" changed "one jot or tittle" of the Mosaic Law/ Old Covenant until all was fulfilled at His resurrection. Jesus never violated the intent or the letter of the Mosaic Law until His Resurrection.

Last edited by bob_2 (08-09-14 11:47 pm)

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#205 08-09-14 11:55 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel

Tom, Jesus mixing spittle with dirt to make mud, for a salve for the blind man's eyes is not "work" and does not violate the word or intent of the 4th Commandment, it is the Pharisees that judge Him to have violated the law. They were their manmade laws that he was saying to those listening that you don't have to follow their rules. This is no reformed Sabbath nor breaking of the Sabbath Law He and His Father gave from Sinai. If this is what you have been trying to prove, what a sham!!!!  The New Covenant/God's Kingdom was more momentous than what you claim. Certainly you can see that!!!! Nor does John 5 mean Jesus is Reforming the Sabbath with work. He and His Father were doing salvific work from before Creation, this is not remarkable.

Desert life for Israel was different from the new Synagogue worship. But the fourth commandment is directed at the desert economy, and the mixing of spittle and dirt is far from work as the Pharisees said. Jesus kept the Mosaic Law until His death. Your trivial citing of the spittle and the dirt is far from violating the Mosaic Law. You should get a quote from another scholar that sees it this way, maybe then those reading an myself will be impressed. Colossians 2: 16,17 is impressive, and shows change in the Sabbath law.

Last edited by bob_2 (08-10-14 12:08 am)

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#206 08-10-14 12:15 am

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel

Tom, calling someone a "fool" is pretty serious in the Bible, you treat it as trivial:

Matthew 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

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#207 08-17-14 1:53 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
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Re: Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel

Bob, you are acting very much like the “blind” Pharisees in John 9, which is a long chapter about the Sabbath.  They too, could not comprehend the active, working, NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath under discussion in this passage.  In fact, they concluded that Jesus did miracles on the Sabbath by the power of the devil, not God.

Jesus’ NC Sabbath, which reflected a major change in the Priesthood and the Temple, was too different from what they had been taught under the OC.  Thus they rejected Christ and his strange, new, Gospel Sabbath.  They are self-condemned, just like you Bob.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

Let all understand that Christ responded to the rejection of his NC Sabbath by judging the Pharisees blind and unsaved.  His words still ring true today.  Christ has already judged any Laodican that refuses to repent of their false, anti-Christ, Sabbath doctrine, “blind” in the real Pre-Advent Judgment of the last Church.  They had better repent and follow the genuine Gospel, which includes what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

Bob, you need to repent for trying to defend NCT; not dig in your heels in a futile, mindless, and impossible defense of this worthless theology.  The genuine Sabbath doctrine for the church is located in the NC Gospels, NOT in the OC law.  Only a blind person can miss it.

Bob the blind man said:  Tom, let me be clear; 1. Jesus said while on this earth:  Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Tom replied:  First, let me be blunt; your proof texting method, which you learned from the SDA’s, is worthless and wrong.  This method of picking random passages that supposedly support this or that doctrine, is not the proper way to understand the Gospel Story. 

In fact, it is a method calculated to manipulate the Bible to say whatever one wants it to say.  Thus the SDA’s can defend tithe, the IJ, and all manner of false doctrines by using this dishonest, unprofessional, and misleading hermeneutic.  They taught you well.

The Sunday keepers also have their own special proof texts, as do all denominations and cults in Laodicea.  Now, here you are, using the same nonsense to defend the false Sabbath views of NCT.  Pitiful.

Jesus teaches that the last church, Laodicea, is blind to the Gospel, unable to correctly understand the OT or the NT.  How could such a thing happen?  The world is full of Bibles, including the four Gospels that contain Jesus original and authentic teaching.  How did everyone become so wrong about the Gospel teachings of Christ, which includes what he teaches about the Sabbath? 

How did you become so blind and deaf to the Word? 

Alas, the church (meaning every denomination) has been following a false and worthless Christ for generations.  They have not, not, not been following the Good Shepherd, with his active and reformed doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.  They have been, and still are, following a false Christ.

Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

The church has been so dishonest and manipulative with the NT - that few know what Jesus teaches in the NT and what he does not.  The Sabbath doctrine is a good example of this confusion, error, and chaos.  Nor does anyone seem to care, so long as the money keeps coming.  Thus the church has figured out a way, via a false hermeneutic, to preach a false, distorted Gospel that is worthless and wrong. 

This is also what you are doing Bob. 

All must respect, understand, and embrace the words, sayings, and teaching of Jesus, INCLUDING what he teaches about the Gospel Sabbath.  We are not to deny, much less refute or in any way be ashamed of what Christ teaches in the Gospels about the 7th day Sabbath or anything else.

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Rom. 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Bob the blind said:  2. The symbols of the New Covenant were not given until the Last Supper:  Luke 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Tom replied;  Wrong!  The “symbols of the NC” are found in the OC, long before Jesus came to earth.   The OC is full of Gospel Symbols, including the Passover, which is the basis for the Eucharist.  These ancient OC symbols became better understood in the NC, even as they were re-cast into a Gospel paradigm with a different Temple, Priesthood and view of the law and Sabbath. 

So Bob, you are wasting your time trying to pretend that the Gospel did not start until after the cross so you can ignore the Gospels and embrace a phony doctrine of the Sabbath.  The Gospel is “eternal;” it existed as an idea, plan, and paradigm long before the earth was created.

Rev. 14:6  And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;

Titus 1:2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

Titus 1:3 but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior,

Col. 1:26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,

The Gospel teaching of Christ, in the Gospels, is the genuine Gospel.  This includes, not excludes, but INCLUDES, what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath.  Period.

False Hermeneutics

Pay attention:  It is a great mistake to think this or that passage means anything worthwhile when it is removed from its historical context.  Many do just that as they try to find a chain of key words to string together, thinking there are discovering credible doctrine, when that is not what is taking place.  Without a systematic understanding of the ancient context, few passages will be properly understood today. 

The Sabbath doctrine is a good case in point.  All denominations have this doctrine wrong because they are not being honest with the teachings of Christ in the Gospels.  They are manipulating the Word and making it say what they want to hear.  Bob, this is what you are also doing.  It is a fatal mistake.

2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

Today, the official Sabbath doctrine of every church in Laodicea is mythical, confused, and wrong.  Even the SDA’s with their correct position about the 7th day versus Sunday are wrong and anti-Christ. 

While the NCT crowd should be praised for acknowledging that all have a false view of the doctrine of the Sabbath.  Both the Sunday and Sabbath keepers have made it more difficult for the uneducated and gullible public to find the truth about the Sabbath.  Thus the blind are leading the blind away from the Gospel.

Bob the blind said:  3. After His death and resurrection He said this to His followers:  Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Tom replied:  First, this passage in no way moots, removes, or refutes what Jesus teaches in the Gospels about his active and reformed 7th day Sabbath.  Why would you think so?

This SDA idea that verses in the Bible are to be used as weapons against other verses is wrong and absurd.  Neither the Spirit nor the Word is divided against itself.  Passage A is not meant to make war against passage B, or C. 

Rather, all passages must be viewed within the proper context, considering all passages that cover the same ground.  But this is not what you do.  You ignore both large and small passages where Christ teaches his active and reformed 7th day Sabbath, and then you run to some other passage to refute what you refuse to acknowledge.  Only a blind fool would risk Eternal Life by playing such games.

Second, your idea that the Gospels are “pre-NC” and that they do not contain the genuine Gospel teachings of Christ is heretical and absurd.  You are not even a Christian if you really believe this double-talk, which no one else believes but you.

Moreover, there is no OC prophecy, theology, or typology where the Messiah was to “fulfill” the Sabbath, much less transform it into an Every Day spiritual state of mind, or even into Sunday.  Nor did Jesus or his apostles ever teach such absurd, fabricated points.  Jesus is not the Sabbath, nor is he to be compared to the 7th day, as if he were to “fulfill” it. 

NCT is fiction for the blind and brain dead.  This passage does not help you, as you claim.  Your use of it shows you have no idea how to honestly read the Bible.  You are truly blind.

Bob the blind said:  4. Then he tells His followers:  Luke 24: 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

Tom replied:  Bob, you sound like you have found some NT based formula to defend NCT.  But it is a false formula, developed by the blind for the blind.  This idea that new Gospel doctrine, specifically about the Sabbath, will be given to the church after the resurrection is false and outrageous.  The Spirit cannot refute or contradict Christ in any way, much less on a point where Jesus repeatedly teaches doctrine in the Gospels. 

When it comes to the NC Sabbath, the four Gospels are full of Jesus sayings and teachings about the 7th day FOR THE CHURCH.  There is no possibility that after his death, Jesus would send the Holy Spirit to refute, contradict, or change what he taught about the NC Sabbath.  If that were the case, the Gospels, which were all written long after the cross, would contain this “new” Sabbath instruction, which you claim is an Every Day spiritual Sabbath of rest.   

Your position is complete error and utter nonsense.  The Holy Spirit cannot contradict Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath, about any doctrine, including and especially the Sabbath, and this is not what is taking place.

In addition, I note that the Holy Spirit saves no one?  It was Jesus, the divine man that went to the cross for mankind.  Not the HS.  So again, here is another reason to pay close and special attention to Christ’s written words, sayings, and teachings in the NT, which was written with the help of the HS.  Salvation is only through Christ.  What Jesus says matters for those that seek Eternal Life.

Acts 4:12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Bob, if you continue to be ashamed of Jesus active and working doctrine of the 7th day, you are a dead man.  No Eternal Life for you.  At the judgment Day, Christ will be ashamed of you and what you teach.  I am ashamed for you now, and at some point you had better wake up and repent for being so stubborn and blind.

Bob the blind man said:  5. Another thing that you contradict our very Savior is, about additional knowledge to be given to His followers.

Tom replied:  Bob, let’s be clear, you and I embrace very different views about Jesus and what he teaches. 

So there is no “our savior.” 

You have embraced a false and mythical Christ, one that is worthless, stupid, and diversionary, while I am carefully following the genuine Christ of the NT, the one that made the world and the original Sabbath.  Your Christ is fraud and so too are you.  Jesus teaches that there is no Eternal Life for those that choose to be blind.  Sorry.

Bob the blind man continues:  Here is His promise and instruction. He does not say this and add, the Holy Spirit will only repeat words I have already said, He says, "I have much more to say to you."   You denigrate Paul and all the writing Apostles of the New Testament.

John 16: 2 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

Tom replied:  Note that the passage says the HS will not “speak on its own behalf, but only what he hears from God or Christ.  Thus the HS will “glorify” and magnify the words and teachings of Christ, not add to them and refute Christ as you pretend.  The HS is not, not, not, a source for doctrine.  Nor does it refute the words of Christ.  Ever.

See verse 14:   “He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.”

Those that follow Christ, will embrace and follow what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath in the Gospels.  Period.  The HS will help by pointing to Christ in the Gospels and to his words and actions.  Those that “love” Christ do so because of his Gospel words and teachings, and thus they embrace Jesus with both hands.  However, those that are only pretending do not know, much less keep, the words and teachings of Christ.  (This means you Bob.)

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

John 14:25  “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you.

John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Only a blind man could read the NT and conclude that:

1) Jesus did NOT teach an active and reformed NC Sabbath for the church, and

2) That the HS would bring a different doctrine of the Sabbath (from what Christ taught) after the resurrection, and

3) That this “new” doctrine was an Every Day spiritual Sabbath of rest.

NCT is outrageous and absurd FICTION.  No one that wants to follow the genuine Christ should go anywhere near this theological abomination.  It is a slick diversion away from the Gospel.  Let all sheep beware!

Bob the blind said:  Now if you follow each of those steps, you cannot teach truthfully that 1) Jesus reformed the 4th Commandment when He is clear that it is unchangeable until all is fulfilled, that did not happen until after His death as indicated in Luke 24: 44.   2) Then he tells them to wait in Jerusalem until one of the symbols of the New Covenant/Kingdom is poured out on them, the Holy Spirit.

Tom replied:  First, a person would have to be blind to the facts of the Gospel Story to pretend that Jesus was upholding and supporting the 4th Commandment.  Jesus refused to follow the 4th Commandment, and he taught others to also break this OC law.  This is why there were so many debates with the Pharisees over the Sabbath doctrine.  The fact that this confuses you is beside the point.  The Gospel Story is not to be changed or manipulated to line up with our traditions and errors.

Second, your proof texting “steps” are worthless, dishonest, and diversionary.  Not only because they don’t make Gospel sense, but also because you are deliberately and purposefully ignoring the many passages where Christ teaches his Sabbath doctrine.  How can you claim to follow Christ, when you actually run from his words, pretending they don’t apply to you or the church? 

Bob, are you truly blind or just pretending?  Either way it is the same result; darkness and doom.  Those that shut their eyes to the teachings of Christ, which they don’t like, pushing forward other passages from Christ, which they approve, will never find truth.  Christ is not divided or stupid, nor does he approve of the legion of myths that overwhelm the church today.  Those who play such disrespectful and blasphemous games with the Word have no chance of finding the Gospel, much less of being saved.

Bob the blind man said:  This shows how false your teaching is, I don't need to read another long drawn out epistle of Tom Norris when the Bible is plain about the New Covenant's beginning.

Tom replied:  Bob, you need to read the Gospels!  You have no idea what they contain.  If you did, you would not take the absurd positions you have taken.

Moreover, since when do the blind and deaf lecture those that can see, hear, and read?  Bob, it doesn’t matter if the post is long or short, you are blind and deaf to the Gospel regardless.  Like the Jews, you are in the dark, unable to comprehend the simplest Gospel points.  Sad.

Matt. 13:15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
    WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
    AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
    OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
    HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
    AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
    AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

As for the start of the Gospel, this point is also beyond your comprehension.  Facts make no sense for those too blind to see.  However, you are free to make up your own religion to go along with the fabricated Christ that you claim teaches an Every Day Sabbath. 

Bob the blind man said:  Please quick cluttering this thread with false teaching, without Bible sources.

Tom replied:  Ha!  Spoken like a very foolish blind man.  Bob, how many years until you are dead?  I think you have already had a number of heart attacks and need to retire on disability.  You don’t have a lot of time to get your head on straight. 

How many years do you think you have left? 1 year?  5? 10? 

I suggest that you stop playing the blind fool and get serious about learning how to read the Bible and understand the Gospel before you die.  At this point you don’t have these skills, and thus you are not ready to die because you don’t understand nor embrace the Gospel.  Don’t wait much longer, because you are running out of time my friend.  Don’t say you have not been warned.

Bob the blind man continues to defy the facts of the NT:  Bob said:  Jesus argued against the man made laws of the Pharisees but "NEVER" changed "one jot or tittle" of the Mosaic Law/ Old Covenant until all was fulfilled at His resurrection. Jesus never violated the intent or the letter of the Mosaic Law until His Resurrection.

Tom said:  It is no doubt very difficult for a legalistic person to accept the fact that Jesus broke the OC law, including the 4th Commandment.  In fact, all SDA’s were brainwashed into thinking that Christ was a legalist, having to perfectly obey the law in order to save us. 

These SDA’s also think it sinful to work on the Sabbath, when this was not true for the Levites whatsoever, much less for Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath.  Thus the SDA’s are not the Sabbath experts as they claim.  They have overlooked many points, including and especially the fact that the Gospel is not based on obedience to the law, but on faith in Christ, which is a very different paradigm.

The NT clearly shows that Christ broke many Jewish laws, including and especially the Sabbath, which is why he was sent to the cross.  Which means the SDA’s have been teachings a false Christ all these years to go along with their false view of the Two Covenants.  They teach that Jesus obeyed the 4th Commandment when the NT shows that he did not, not, not.  Proving the SDA’s to be as blind as the 1st century Jews that also rejected Jesus Gospel Sabbath.

All SDA’s must come to grips with the fact that Jesus does not support what they teach about the 7th day Sabbath.  This mindless game of pretending to have all possible truth is utter nonsense.  The SDA’s must repent for their Sabbath keeping, tithe paying, non-drinking Christ.  He is a fictional character and a fraud of their own making.  The SDA’s are as doomed as were the Jews if they do not soon repent of their many false, anti-Christ views, chief of which is their legalistic and impossible view of the 7th day Sabbath.

Bob, you and many others are full of SDA errors.  Let these errors go, or they will drag you down to hell.

Bob the blind man said:  Tom, Jesus mixing spittle with dirt to make mud, for a salve for the blind man's eyes is not "work" and does not violate the word or intent of the 4th Commandment,

Tom replied:  It is far too late to change the Bible Story.  It is what it is, and no amount of manipulation and denial can change the facts of the record.  It is a fact that God instructed Moses and the Jews not to do any work on the Sabbath, under penalty of death.  Thus, we see Moses punishing a man to death for picking up sticks on the 7th day. 

Ex. 20:11 “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Ex. 31:14 ‘Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex. 31:15 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

Num. 15:30 ‘But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Num. 15:31 ‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt will be on him.’”

Num. 15:32  Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day.

Num. 15:33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation;

Num. 15:34 and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him.

Num. 15:35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.”

Num. 15:36 So all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him 1to death with stones, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Bob, the facts prove your theory very wrong.  The Jews were instructed by God to stop all activity and come to a complete rest on the 7th day.  No travel, fires or cooking.  No making of medicine or treatments were allowed.  Had Jesus not been the Son of God and the creator of the world and of the original Sabbath doctrine, and the High Priest of the new Israel, the Church, he would have been guilty of sinfully breaking the 4th Commandment.   

Thus Christ broke the 4th Commandment, but he was not guilty of sin.  This point needs to be kept in mind.  Let all legalists relax and try to understand the Gospel.  The Gospel is not based on law, but on the words and teachings of Jesus, who is greater than Moses.

Bob the blind man said:  it is the Pharisees that judge Him to have violated the law. They were their manmade laws that he was saying to those listening that you don't have to follow their rules. This is no reformed Sabbath nor breaking of the Sabbath Law He and His Father gave from Sinai. If this is what you have been trying to prove, what a sham!!!! 

Tom replied:  You are blind to the facts that prove you wrong.  The religious leaders were correct to charge Jesus with breaking the Sabbath law.  He never denied it.  Rather, he claimed the God taught him this new Sabbath doctrine and that God also works on the 7th day.  This enraged the Jews to murder Christ.

Bob, stop making up your own twisted version of the Gospel Story.  I know the SDA’s have brainwashed you and many others.  They have made a horrible mess of things as they tried to push forward some much-needed truth about the Sabbath.  But they have failed as badly as did the 1st century Jews.  They have ruined many a persons brain, even as they have kept legions away from the true Gospel.  Sad.

Bob the blind man said:  The New Covenant/God's Kingdom was more momentous than what you claim. Certainly you can see that!!!!

Tom replied:  I don’t know what you are trying to say with this double-talk.  Why not confess that you don’t like what Jesus teaches in the Gospels?  Why not stand up and admit you have made up your own version of the Gospel Story you like better?  That would be the honest thing to do instead of pretending you are a follower of the genuine Christ, when you are not even close.

John 9:18  The Jews then did not believe it of him, that he had been blind and had received sight, until they called the parents of the very one who had received his sight,

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Jesus teaches that those who reject his active and reformed NC Sabbath are not believers, nor are they following the Good Shepherd.  Those that embrace a false Sabbath, refusing to repent of their error, are self-condemned and lost.

Bob the blind man said:  Nor does John 5 mean Jesus is Reforming the Sabbath with work. He and His Father were doing salvific work from before Creation, this is not remarkable.

Tom replied:  Those that deny the plainest passages in the Gospels, have denied Christ and his Gospel.  There is no hope of Eternal Life for such fools.  It is remarkable that anyone would go to so much trouble to manipulate, distort, and refute the Gospel teachings of Christ, and yet, pretend that they are following Christ.  I find such outrageous hypocrisy disgusting, evil, and anti-Christ.  But such are the spiritually blind.  They are only fooling themselves.

Bob the blind fool said:  Desert life for Israel was different from the new Synagogue worship. But the fourth commandment is directed at the desert economy, and the mixing of spittle and dirt is far from work as the Pharisees said.

Tom replied:  Ha!  This is comical.  So geography determines doctrine?  Wow!  You are not only blind, but the rest of your brain is also off line and non-functional.  Perhaps you need to find a healthcare professional? 

Jesus was not a Levite; thus he had no legal permission to treat the sick or heal on the Sabbath.  Period!  However, Christ did not come to earth to obey the OC law, but to launch the NC Gospel, which included a very active and different doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.  Misunderstand this point, and the Gospel will not be understood properly.  Mission accomplished for you, Bob.

Bob the blind man declared:  Jesus kept the Mosaic Law until His death.

Tom replied:  Jesus broke the OC laws of Judaism on a regular basis.  Even his birth was a major violation of Judaism, and so too what he taught about the 4th Commandment, the Temple, etc. 

Bob the fool said:  Your trivial citing of the spittle and the dirt is far from violating the Mosaic Law. You should get a quote from another scholar that sees it this way, maybe then those reading and myself will be impressed. Colossians 2: 16,17 is impressive, and shows change in the Sabbath law.

Tom replied:  It is very telling that while you claim Paul’s few remarks about the Sabbath “impressive,” you are so dismissive of Christ’s long and detailed Sabbath teachings, which you view as “trivial?”  Don’t you see how twisted and wrong you are?  Jesus has scores and scores of Gospel verses where he teaches and defends his active and reformed NC Sabbath.  But you refuse to take Christ’s words seriously, even as you pretend they don’t exist.  Why are you ashamed of Jesus and what he teaches about the Sabbath?

Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.


Jesus and the Sabbath

All should understand that the latest scholarship about the Sabbath teachings of Christ and the early church supports the active and reformed doctrine being promoted by Adventist Reform.  At long last, a non Sabbatarian scholar has made an objective view of the Gospel facts, minus all the drama and debate about Sunday.  Unfortunately for both the Sunday and NCT crowd, this book refutes their impossible view of the Sabbath, even as it does the same for the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath.

See:

A Day of Gladness: The Sabbath Among Jews and Christians in Antiquity; By Herold Weiss,  2003

A study of the wide spectrum of theological views on the Sabbath in the Jewish and Christian faiths of antiquity;

In A Day of Gladness, Herold Weiss compares the ways in which Christians and Jews of antiquity viewed the Sabbath. Rather than attending to the minutiae of its observance among Jews or its connection with Sunday observance among Christians, he examines major extant texts for the fundamental religious concerns of their authors and communities, particularly how those concerns shaped their thoughts about the Sabbath.

Weiss contends that the wide spectrums of theological beliefs illustrate the internal diversities of these two faiths as well as their commonalities.

To explore Jewish perspectives, Weiss looks to the Rabbinic and Qumranic texts, Samaritan texts, and the writings of Philo and of Josephus.

To illumine early Christian attitudes, he offers analyses of the Synoptic Gospels, the Gospels of John and Thomas, and the letters to the Galatians, the Romans, the Hebrews, and the Colossians.

Weiss uses each text as a window upon the sociological constructs and theological perspectives figuring in early Jewish and Christian thought about worship and rest. He suggests that such perspectives reflect larger theological postures because, as an element of the creation story, the Sabbath became an important cosmological fixed point and a source of eschatological speculation.

With insights gained from his examination of the texts, Weiss identifies the concerns animating Sabbath disputes. He marks out in the beliefs of Jews and early Christians overarching similarities between the two faiths as well as variations within each.

http://www.amazon.com/Day-Gladness-Sabb … 1570034680

This much-needed book is a “must read” for anyone that wants to understand the Sabbath teachings of Christ.  The author correctly concludes that Jesus “does not argue for the total abrogation of the Sabbath law.”  But he does “challenge” the 4th Commandment, all the while being careful not to “contest the validity of the Sabbath.” P 97.

This author is not SDA (however, he does live in Berrien Springs, Michigan) or a NCT supporter, and in fact, he disproves both of these views of the Sabbath.  This excellent work supports and underscores the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.  It is a fantastic study that deals with the real issues, including the Sabbath debates, which have been overlooked by the church.

Everyone needs to read this book and ground themselves on the facts about 1st century Sabbath keeping when there was no debate about Sunday to confuse the issues.  This book should have been written many years ago.

So Bob, get this book on the Sabbath and read it.  It will help ground you on the facts.

Bob the blind said:  Tom, calling someone a "fool" is pretty serious in the Bible, you treat it as trivial: 

Matthew 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Tom replied:  First off, you have misunderstood this passage, even as you have overlooked many other passages that speak to this point.  This is typical of your confused, proof-texting hermeneutic, which is calculated to defend one false doctrine after another.  At some point, you must learn how to read the Bible correctly to find truth, not to defend your own doctrinal confusion.

Second, you should have searched the NT to see how Christ and the apostles deal with this topic.  One verse is not enough to prove anything. 

Here is the question: does Jesus teach it wrong to call someone a fool, as you claim?  Does Paul?  Let’s take a look.

A quick survey of the word “fool” or “foolish” in the OT shows it is a widely used term.  The NT shows that God, Christ, and the apostles call people fools. In fact, Paul called the entire Galatian church “foolish,” even as Jesus calls those “foolish” that refuse to listen to his teaching, which is the same as calling them fools.


Psa. 14:1  The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”

Jer. 4:22 “For My people are foolish,
    They know Me not;
    They are stupid children
    And have no understanding.
    They are shrewd to do evil,

Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.


Luke 12:20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?’

Luke 24:25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!

Matt. 25:1  “Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

Matt. 25:2 “Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent.

Rom. 1:14 I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish.

1Cor. 15:36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;

Gal. 3:1  You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

Gal. 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

So Bob, your foolish remarks about being a fool is wrong, once again showing how unreliable it is to play the proof texting game.  Until you learn to read the Bible in a more honest and sincere manner, you will remain a blind fool, even an enemy of God and Christ.

Jesus calls all that refuse to listen to his Gospel teachings, - “foolish.”  Here is the real definition of a “fool,” one that fits you and legions of others perfectly, sad to say.

Raca

If Jesus and the apostles defined what it means to be a fool, and called people out for being “foolish,” then what is Matt  5: 22 about?  It seems contradictory.

Matt. 5:21  “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’

Matt. 5:22 “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be 1guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matt. 5:23 “Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,

Matt. 5:24 leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.

The term used for “fool” in 5: 22 is Raca.  It means contempt that leads to murder.  Here is the King James:

21You have heard that it was said by them of old time, You shall not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has anything against you;

Raca: Roughly Translated = "Fool." However, it really means "You Good-For-Nothing Moron!"

http://biblehub.com/topical/naves/r/rac … ron!)).htm

See also:

What is beyond dispute is that Christ condemns the use of disparaging and insulting epithets as a supreme offense against the law of humanity, which belongs to the same category as murder itself.

It should be added, however, that it is the underlying feeling and not the verbal expression as such that constitutes the sin. Hence, our Lord can, without any real inconsistency, address two of His followers as "foolish men" (Luke 24:25, anoetoi, practically equivalent to Raca, as is also James's expression, "O vain man," James 2:20).

http://biblehub.com/topical/r/raca.htm

While Jesus defines a “fool” as someone that rejects his Gospel teaching, the term Raca is an ancient slur, the root word meaning “to spit”.   Raca means that a person is worthless, beyond redemption, unworthy to live.  It is a hateful, derogatory and damning perspective that leads to thoughts and actions of murder.    Which is why it is located in a passage about murder. 

In conclusion, Bob, you are a blind fool for refusing to understand the Gospel.  Your doctrines, most of which are based on SDA indoctrination and error, are built on sand, not the rock of the Word.  Consequently, my use of the word “fool” is not only proper, it is exactly how Jesus uses this word.  Christ calls all that build their lives on false doctrine --fools, even as he call those who embrace what he teaches, "wise."

Matt. 7:24  “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.

Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”

Bob, I do NOT think you are a worthless human being who does not deserve to live.  Thus I am not using the term Raca when I call you a fool.  Nor am I wishing you any harm or hatred, much less murder.  I want you to find  Eternal Life.

Consequently, I hope Bob, and many others, will stop acting like blind fools.  Let all in the Adventist Community repent and embrace the Gospel teachings of Christ, which includes what he teaches about the 7th day.  Let all the fools become “wise man” and all that are blind, receive their sight.  Eternal Life, is not for fools, only the wise.

Eph. 5:15  Therefore be careful how you awalk, not as unwise men but as wise,

Matt. 25:1  “Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

Matt. 25:2 “Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent.

It is time for the wise to repent and understand the Gospel.  The foolish will never understand, nor will those that choose to be blind ever see the Gospel light.

Mark 9:7 Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!”

Let all understand:  Jesus called those that rejected his new view of the 7th day Sabbath “Blind.”  He also called those that refused to embrace his Gospel instruction “foolish.”  (Bob, this makes you both blind and foolish.)

Luke 8:8 “Other seed fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great.” As He said these things, He would call out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Those that want Eternal Life must listen to Christ, embracing what he teaches about all things, including the doctrine of the NC Sabbath.  To do otherwise is very foolish and incredibly stupid. 

Is anyone listening?

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for NC Adventism

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#208 08-17-14 11:18 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel

Tom, you are a lost cause. I can see why you are an army of one. Did you take over the 144,000 army of one I saw as a child out in front of our church as a kid?

The New Covenant never started until after Christ died, and he was not killed over some new doctrine of the Sabbath, this is of your making. All I can do is leave you with this:

John 16: 12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

The Four Gospels do not contain all doctrine, and do not hold all truth Jesus wanted to give. This in His own words you deny. You are a lost cause.

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#209 08-26-14 11:59 am

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel

Bob, the foolish blind man that thinks he can see, said:  Tom, you are a lost cause.

Tom replied:  Yes, I will never embrace NCT, with its’ Every Day Sabbath foolishness.  NCT is a lost cause, so I will never join.  It is based on sand.

Bob the blind man said:  I can see why you are an army of one. Did you take over the 144,000 army of one I saw as a child out in front of our church as a kid?

Tom said:  Those that were raised from childhood in the SDA Denomination, have many things to unlearn and relearn.  They have been indoctrinated to believe one myth and error after another.  Consequently, most are clueless about how to view the Two Covenants or read the Bible.  The Gospel is unknown to them, which is why they are blind to the NC Sabbath of Christ. 

Bob the foolish said:  The New Covenant never started until after Christ died, and he was not killed over some new doctrine of the Sabbath, this is of your making.

Tom replied; only a blind person would refute what is so plain and clear in the Gospel Record.  Remember, it was the religious leaders that Christ called blind.  The very ones that should have embraced his correct, NC theology and his working Sabbath.  They should have known better, and so too should you.

Bob the fool said:  All I can do is leave you with this:

John 16: 12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

Tom replied:  Really?  Are you still trying to manipulate the Word to say what you want to hear?  This passage does not say that Jesus will send the HS, in the 1970’s, to either Zaspel or Wells to show them the Every Day Sabbath.  What is the matter with you?

To “glorify” Christ means to embrace, respect, and obey his 1st century teachings and sayings.  The HS can only promote the SAME doctrine of the NC Sabbath that Jesus preached in the Gospels.  Period!  This is why the Cannon is closed today.  There can be no new additions to the NT, (which is Gnosticism), least of all from Zaspel and Wells.  NCT is a joke.  Only a blind fool would follow this nonsense.

I leave you with the words of Jesus:

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Bob the foolish said:  The Four Gospels do not contain all doctrine, and do not hold all truth Jesus wanted to give. This in His own words you deny. You are a lost cause.

Tom replied:  The Gospels contain all that is necessary to understand NC salvation.  It was the Gnostics that claimed there were additional, doctrines beyond the 1st century Gospels.  The SDA’s have also embraced this error by teaching that new Gospel doctrines, like the IJ, would come into the church in the last days.  But this is absurd and false.  You have been indoctrinated into believing myths, for which you must repent if you ever want to understand the Gospel correctly.

How sad that the SDA Community has fallen into confusion and chaos.  They are blind to the Gospel and to church history, which is why they are self-destructing for all to see.

Rom. 11:8 just as it is written,
    “GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
    EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
    DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.” 

Tom Norris, for New Covenant Adventist Reform

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#210 08-26-14 4:27 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel

Ditto, my previous response to the same message by Tom Norris, nothing Reformed that is accepted by reputable scholars. Tom an army of one with a message that no one else supports nor able to be shown as given by Christ in the Gospels or elsewhere by the Holy Spirit in the rest of the NT. Read the context of Romans 11:8, talk about proof texting, plucked right out of discussion about Israel.

Last edited by bob_2 (08-26-14 4:31 pm)

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#211 09-01-14 10:42 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel

Tom, simply put, as in Acts 16:30, let me ask you, "What must I do to be saved?"   Give me your answer,  which appears to be different than Paul and Silas gave to the jailer, what is your answer, what  is your Gospel?

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#212 09-19-14 1:06 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel

Bob said:  Tom, simply put, as in Acts 16:30, let me ask you, "What must I do to be saved?"   

Acts 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Acts 16:32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.

Acts 16:33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

Bob asked:  Give me your answer, which appears to be different than Paul and Silas gave to the jailer, what is your answer, what is your Gospel?

Tom replied:  First, there is only one genuine, historic, Gospel, and it is found in the NT, primarily in the four Gospels.  So there is no “Tom’s Gospel,” or even Paul’s Gospel.”  There is only the Gospel of Christ, written down for our edification in Matt, Mark, Luke, & John. 

1Cor. 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”

1Cor. 1:13  Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Second, Paul embraced the correct Gospel and thus he gave the correct answer to the jailer, which is to believe in Jesus for salvation.  But what does that entail and mean?  This is the real issue. 

1Cor. 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

1Cor. 1:18  For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1Cor. 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

1Cor. 2:3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,

1Cor. 2:4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,

1Cor. 2:5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

1Cor. 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

To “believe” in Jesus means to embrace what he teaches about all things, INCLUDING what he teaches in the Gospels about the 7th day Sabbath.  One cannot “believe” in Jesus, and at the same time ignore, refute, and disagree with what he teaches about anything, much less the NC Sabbath. 

John 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

John 3:16  “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Note: after the jailer confessed his “belief” in Christ, he participated in the baptismal ceremony, as Christ himself was baptized.  In other words, he did more than “believe”: he embraced correct doctrine and ritual, thus changing his behavior to reflect the teachings, sayings, and doctrines, of Christ.  His “works” showed he was following Jesus, and thus he was saved by faith in Christ, as taught by Christ and the apostles.

It is not enough to “believe,” in Jesus as a historical figure, the devil does that.  To believe in Jesus, so as to obtain Eternal Life, requires a commitment to understand and practice what he teaches, which includes his instruction about the NC doctrine of the Sabbath.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

James 2:18   But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

James 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

James 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Jesus is the source for all Gospel teaching and doctrine, including the NC Sabbath.  In addition to being the Son of God and our savior, the founder of the church; he is the greatest teacher of the Gospel, and we are his students.  We must follow him like sheep, as if he were our Good Shepherd, paying careful attention to his written instruction in the Gospels. 

Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.

Only what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath, is correct doctrine for the church.  Those that follow the genuine Christ will seek to understand what Jesus teaches about all things.

John 6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism

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#213 09-20-14 3:34 am

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel

Tom, I agree that there is only one Gospel. Why then is your answer so unique, an army of one???

Last edited by bob_2 (09-20-14 1:20 pm)

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#214 12-01-14 1:04 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel

Today, in hindsight, it is clear that no church or denomination has a correct doctrine of the New Covenant Sabbath.  Not the Sunday keepers or the Sabbatarians.   All is confusion when it comes to this most public of doctrines.

In fact, this is the basis for Zaspel and Well’s new view of the Sabbath, which many former SDA’s support and champion.  NCT correctly teaches that every church has the Sabbath doctrine wrong, including the SDA’s.

I agree 100% with this premise.

However, here is the problem: the Every Day Sabbath is not the solution.   It too is false doctrine, unknown to Jesus and the apostles.   

So everyone is forced to go back and re-examine the teachings of Christ to find the true Sabbath doctrine.  But few today actually care.  And some, like the SDA’s stubbornly refuse to admit they have any doctrinal error, much less about the Sabbath. 

Today, the last church, meaning all denominations, has been judged by Christ to be blind and wrong about doctrine.  In fact, the last church is judged by heaven to be the worst of all.  Which means, they all have a false view of the Gospel Sabbath, and thus they must repent and reform or be shut out of the kingdom of God.

Rev. 3:14  “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:  The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

Rev. 3:15  ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.

Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

At some point, the Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church must turn into action.  So where is the true doctrine about the Sabbath?  And when will it emerge for all to see?

Mark 4:22 “For nothing is hidden, except to be revealed; nor has anything been secret, but that it would come to light.

The 7th day Sabbath is first and foremost a creation ordinance.  This early doctrine existed long before there was any OC law, which means it was not like the Law of Moses, as the SDA’s teach.  This fact can never be changed, much less to a paradigm where every day is the 7th day.

In conclusion, Zaspel and Wells were on the right track.  They understand that no church teaches a correct doctrine of the Sabbath.  But in their haste, they have overlooked the genuine Sabbath doctrine that has yet to emerge.

Let all repent for their Gospel errors, seeking truth in all things. 

Once the Sabbath doctrine is correctly comprehended, so too the genuine Gospel of Christ.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

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