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In a futile attempt to defend NCT, Bob pushes forward two supposedly, anti Sabbatarian passages from Paul.
However, the first, Col 2: 16, 17 confirms that there is NC Sabbath for the church, even as Christ is the ultimate “reality” for all Gospel doctrine.
Such a view of Christ does not diminish or repudiate his doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath, which is clearly taught in all four Gospels.
Rather, Paul is teaching that the Christian is not to let the Judaizers judge them about their NC Sabbath doctrine, or about the food they eat, all of which was very wrong as judged by the Jews and the legalists (Judaizers) in the church.
Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —
Col. 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
This remark about shadows does not mean there is no Sabbath for the church. Rather, the entire OC system of Law is viewed by the NT as a shadow of the NC. Thus the OC Sabbath law is a shadow of the NC, Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
Heb. 10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.
The OC law is a shadow of the NC Gospel, which is the reality.
The second passage in Romans is also about not allowing people to judge the Christian’s Sabbath behavior or their eating habits. Once again, there is a defense of the Sabbath, not any instruction that the Sabbath has been fulfilled by Christ and abolished, or changed to Sunday.
Rom. 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Rom. 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom. 14:6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
Paul is defending the freedom that Christians have regarding the Sabbath day and food. Reminding all that “he who observes the day, observes it for the Lord…” Such a pro-Sabbath statement is hardly saying that the Sabbath has been fulfilled by Christ and abolished, as NCT claims.
Rom. 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Rom. 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
While every SDA has been taught to harshly judge others about their Sabbath behavior and what they eat, Paul is saying this is wrong. The NC Sabbath is not like the OC Sabbath where there were many rules to control behavior. There are no such rules with the NC Sabbath, nor is there any such thing as clean and unclear foods. That was an OC point of view.
Our Sabbath behavior is between God, and us even as there is no such thing as clean and unclean foods in the NC.
Rom. 14:12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
Rom. 14:13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this — not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way.
Rom. 14:14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
No one in the church, or in Judaism, is to judge our Sabbath behavior, claiming it is not good enough, etc. The NC Sabbath is not like the OC version, where there were many rules and regulations, and breaking the Sabbath called for the death penalty.
The Gospel Sabbath is not obsolete. Rather, it is full of freedom and innocence, so much so, that no one is to judge our behavior on the 7th day, much less claim that there is no NC Sabbath for the church.
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Luke 6:5 And He was saying to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Today, those that follow the genuine Christ, will embrace his view of the 7th day, NC Sabbath. Those that refuse,- are following a false Christ and a worthless Gospel.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for the active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath
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In a futile attempt to defend NCT, Bob pushes forward two supposedly, anti Sabbatarian passages from Paul.
However, the first, Col 2: 16, 17 confirms that there is NC Sabbath for the church, even as Christ is the ultimate “reality” for all Gospel doctrine.
Such a view of Christ does not diminish or repudiate his doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath, which is clearly taught in all four Gospels.
Rather, Paul is teaching that the Christian is not to let the Judaizers judge them about their NC Sabbath doctrine, or about the food they eat, all of which was very wrong as judged by the Jews and the legalists (Judaizers) in the church.
Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —
Col. 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
This remark about shadows does not mean there is no Sabbath for the church. Rather, the entire OC system of Law is viewed by the NT as a shadow of the NC. Thus the OC Sabbath law is a shadow of the NC, Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
In your vein attempt to negate the Sabbath from Col 2:16-17 you forgot new moons and festivals. If the Sabbath is yet binding in some form then what about the other rituals? Have they somehow morphed into New Covenant rituals and we have just forgotten about them? You did admit that Sabbath mentioned in verse 16 is the weekly Sabbath. I will give you a few points for recognizing that fact. Most SDAs try to explain this fact away. It condemns all of their doctrine to dust. No wonder when I was an Adventist we didn't talk about Paul's writings except some isolated proof texts taken out of context.
Then there are the prior verses in Col that you also neglected to comment on.
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. AND Gal 3: 19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.
Paul calls the law a curse because it condemns the one it condemns the one it is intended for. Christ took it away nailing it to His Cross just like He said he would in Matt 5:18. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Jesus made the law disappear at His death on the Cross. Now that the law is no longer binding on Christians, we are not obligated to observe its rituals. So the Sabbath, new moon days and festivals didn't morph into some new form or ritual at the Cross, they merely disappeared.
You can ramp and rage in your posts all you want about your NC Sabbath. We who have studied scripture know better. We have blessed rest in Christ everyday.
Last edited by Louie (02-20-12 12:01 pm)
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Tom, the first four books of the NT are referred to as the four Gospels. In them they show how Christ lived under the OC in a perfect OC way. He spoke of His kingdom to come, but he offered no command for a NC "Gospel Sabbath." He had to live and talk about Sabbath because it was OC, in fact center of the OC, the Law with the fourth commandment central. Christ lived His life perfectly. His death on the cross ushered in the NC.
The preaching of the Gospel is more important than talking about the Gospel + something. That is the problem of SDAism. They preach another Gospel. SDAism could use their knowledge of this to preach a pure Gospel. To continue to use the Gospel + something, are not preaching the Biblical Gospel. http://solochristo.com/theology/nct/the … ssmain.htm This cite should help.
Last edited by bob_2 (02-21-12 1:36 am)
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Louie said: In your vein attempt to negate the Sabbath from Col 2:16-17 you forgot new moons and festivals.
Tom replied: First off, I have no problem with the Sabbath being part of this passage. The SDA’s deny this passage means the weekly Sabbath, but they are wrong. The text is speaking about the 7th day Sabbath, as well as the Jewish “festival” of Passover, and some other Jewish holidays.
Matt. 26:2 “You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man is to be handed over for crucifixion.”
Matt. 26:3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people were gathered together in the court of the high priest, named Caiaphas;
Matt. 26:4 and they plotted together to seize Jesus by stealth and kill Him.
Matt. 26:5 But they were saying, “Not during the festival, otherwise a riot might occur among the people.”
Mark 14:1 Now the Passover and Unleavened Bread were two days away; and the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to seize Him by stealth and kill Him;
Mark 14:2 for they were saying, “Not during the festival, otherwise there might be a riot of the people.”
Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —
Col. 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Paul is saying to the Greek and Jewish Christians that no one is to pass judgment about their diet, as if there were clean and unclean foods. Or with respect to their observing the Passover, Hanukkah, Rosh Chodesh, or the weekly Sabbath.
He is not saying that the ongoing Jewish Festivals, like the Passover, were abolished, or that Jewish Christians were wrong if they celebrated Passover. So long as everyone understood that all such shadows pointed to Christ. Thus they were free to enjoy the historic traditions of Judaism, including the NC Sabbath, as taught by Christ.
See:
This is the very first commandment given to the nation as a whole, an indication that the concept of Rosh Chodesh, or the New Moon, is very meaningful.
Moreover, a thousand years later in Eretz Yisrael, during the period of Syrian-Greek persecution that culminated in the miracle of Chanukah, Rosh Chodesh was one of only three commandments whose observance the oppressors prohibited.
The other two forbidden commandments were the Sabbath and circumcision; that Rosh Chodesh was on a plane with those central observances is sufficient indication of its great significance.
http://www.ou.org/chagim/roshchodesh/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosh_Chodesh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_hol … _New_Month
http://www.jewfaq.org/chodesh.htm
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holiday … desh.shtml
Louie said: If the Sabbath is yet binding in some form, then what about the other rituals?
Tom said: It is the teaching of Christ that is “binding” on the church. Not the Sabbath, which is a memorial to Creation.
What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, or anything else, is doctrine for the church. Period. Ignore it at your own peril.
The OC Sabbath, with its rules against work was abolished by Christ; replaced with an active, Gospel Sabbath that allowed all manner of work and freedom, as well as congregational fellowship and worship.
Jesus also teaches that the Passover was re-made into the Eucharist. Even as the Jewish purification rites were remade into the doctrine of Baptism.
Louie said: Have they somehow morphed into New Covenant rituals and we have just forgotten about them?
Tom said: The Gospel is a Jewish paradigm. Everything in it comes from the OT, including all the rituals and prophecy. So it should not be surprising to find a NC version of the Sabbath or the Passover. That should be expected, I would think. And it was, which is why there is a Sunday Lord’s Day and the Eucharist.
But Sunday is an error, even though it was a well-meaning attempt to embrace a NC Sabbath doctrine, in keeping with Jesus teaching.
If Christ were the Lord of the Sabbath, one would logically think that there was some form of Sabbath doctrine in existence for him to control, defend, and promote. And so there is. The Gospels are full of Jesus NC Sabbath teachings, starting at the very beginning of his ministry.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Did Jesus declare himself to be the Lord of the fulfilled or abolished Sabbath? No. He is the Lord of the active Gospel Sabbath. Having such great authority that he can give a priestly exemption from the demands of the law, creating new doctrine for the church.
Both the Jews and the SDA’s have followed the OC Sabbath; both also rejected Christ. Those who follow the genuine Jesus, will not obsess about the law or be concerned with Sabbath restrictions, they are free from both. They follow the Lord of the Gospel Sabbath, being NC priests of God.
Our view of the Sabbath shows which Christ we are following. Those that embrace NCT have embraced a worthless fraud.
Louie said: You did admit that Sabbath mentioned in verse 16 is the weekly Sabbath. I will give you a few points for recognizing that fact. Most SDA’s try to explain this fact away.
Tom said: Good for you to understand this point. This was the late Dr. B’s contribution.
Louie said: It condemns all of their doctrine to dust.
Tom said: Not really. This passage does not say the Sabbath is abolished, which is what many critics have been trying to prove from this text.
Louie said: No wonder when I was an Adventist we didn't talk about Paul's writings except some isolated proof texts taken out of context.
Tom said: The SDA’s fear Paul because of the book of Galatians. Debate about this book caused Canright to defect in 1887 and sent the leaders rushing headlong into the debacle of 1888, which led to the demise of the Battle Creek Empire and the retreat to Takoma Park, Md.
Gal. 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Uriah Smith could not bring himself to accepted Waggoner’s view, (which was also Luther’s view), that the Law in Galatians was the Moral law. Why? Because it would mean that we are no longer under the obligation to obey the 4th Commandment.
Consequently, the SDA’s claimed this passage meant “ceremonial law.” Thus the “schoolmaster” or “tutor” law was not the moral law. The OC Sabbath was preserved. Too bad they were protecting the WRONG doctrine. How very foolish.
This NC idea that we are no longer under the 10 Commandment law was rejected by the SDA leaders, (over the protests of Ellen White), because they were trying to defend their legalistic view of the Sabbath. Had they been able to believe the Gospel, they would have understood that they had the wrong Sabbath. The right day, but the wrong doctrine.
The SDA’s have officially embraced the OC Sabbath of Moses and the Pharisees. Not the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
Until they repent of 1888 and repudiate their OC Sabbath, they will continue to self-destruct in arrogant irrelevance.
Louie said: Then there are the prior verses in Col that you also neglected to comment on.
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. AND Gal 3: 19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.
Tom said: Jesus is the “seed.” He came to teach mankind the Gospel, including the NC Sabbath, which is a doctrine that allows all Christians to work on the 7th day and be guiltless. Thus the Lord of the Sabbath shows his authority over the Law.
Not only can Christ forgive sin, he can render the law moot by the very power of his Word, and this is what he did with the NC Sabbath. Jesus Gospel Sabbath trumps the OC Sabbath law of forced rest. Showing that those who follow Christ are not "under" the 10 Commandment Law.
Louie said: Paul calls the law a curse because it condemns the one it condemns the one it is intended for. Christ took it away nailing it to His Cross just like He said he would in Matt 5:18.
Tom said: The law is a curse because no one can obey it. Which is why mankind needed another method to be saved. The Gospel, which is by faith, saves us, not by works of the law.
No wonder Jesus NC Sabbath involves an exemption from the law. We are saved by his Gospel, not by law keeping, or Sabbath keeping. Therefore, the Gospel Sabbath is based on his Word and example, not on the requirements of the law, but an exemption from it.
Louie quoted: For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Louie then said: Jesus made the law disappear at His death on the Cross.
Tom said: Jesus is not a magician, nor is he against the law. If the law really disappeared, so too would sin, making a future judgment impossible.
So this is not what took place, and the passage you quoted does not say the law was abolished at the cross.
Louie said: Now that the law is no longer binding on Christians, we are not obligated to observe its rituals.
Tom said: The Christian is not lawless or without ceremony or ritual. They are under the “Law of Christ,” not the Law of Moses.
1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
While the OC rituals are obsolete, not so with the NC ceremonies and rituals. No Christian can refuse to be baptized, or participate in the Eucharist, and still be a Christian. These rituals are part of the obedience of faith. To repudiate them is to repudiate the Gospel.
The NC Sabbath can also be viewed in the same manner. While there is no longer any prohibition against work, the Sabbath day is part of a larger public ceremony of fellowship and worship for the church.
Louie said: So the Sabbath, new moon days and festivals didn't morph into some new form or ritual at the Cross, they merely disappeared.
Tom said: Wrong. The Passover festival became the Eucharist, even as the Passover continued for the Jews down to the present day. So while it is obsolete, it has not “disappeared.”
The Jewish purification rites became Baptism, which is the gateway doctrine of the church. So this ancient ceremony also lives on in the church today.
Finally, the OC, non-working Sabbath was transformed by the Lord of the Sabbath, into an active, working Sabbath. (Which is a contradiction of terms.) A doctrine where there was no sin or guilt associated with working on the 7th day.
While this non-working aspect of the NCS seems to have been lost early on, along with the 7th day, the doctrine of the Sabbath did not “disappear.” Rather, the church embraced the Sunday Lord’s day, which is observed to this very day. So the doctrine of the Sabbath has not disappeared either. Every church meets once a week.
So here are three NC rituals that came directly from the OC. Including the Sabbath, which was not abolished or turned into an everyday doctrine as NCT claims.
Louie said: You can ramp and rage in your posts all you want about your NC Sabbath. We who have studied scripture know better. We have blessed rest in Christ everyday.
Tom said: Ha! Who is this “we who have studied the scriptures”? I don’t see much evidence of any honest research from the NCT crowd, much less a serious attempt to deal with the issues.
Moreover, anyone raised in the cult of Traditional Adventism has no idea how to read the Bible, much less understand the Gospel. So I would not brag too much about your theological comprehension, just stop and consider how you were raised. You have been so wrong, for so long, how would you even know what truth looks like?
No wonder so many ex SDA’s adopts NCT, which is really nothing more than hardcore anti-Sabbatarianism. They are so confused about doctrine, and angry for having the OC Sabbath pushed down their throats, that they hate the mention of the word Sabbath, much less any defense of it as a doctrine for the church. The very word means legalism to them, as well as personal pain and suffering.
But doctrine is not based on our confusion or opinions, much less as a reaction to false doctrine. If Jesus teaches that there is a Sabbath for the church, then there is, and no amount of double talk or error will change this. The fact that the SDA’s embrace the WRONG Sabbath is beside the point. Those that hate the Gospel Sabbath are at odds with Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath.
NCT Blind
NCT is blind on purpose. It ignores the facts of scripture by pretending Christ failed to articulate a NC Sabbath doctrine for the church. However, Jesus clearly and often promotes his controversial Sabbath doctrine, even as he defended it over and over in the Gospels. To deny this fact is fatal. NCT is based on myth and absurd fiction.
So keep studying theology and church history, because you do not understand the Gospel as yet, much less the NC Sabbath. You are following a false and worthless Christ, just like when you were an SDA. Thus you have exchanged one set of errors for another, the blind following the blind.
Matt. 15:13 “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.
Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
Bob said: Tom, the first four books of the NT are referred to as the four Gospels. In them they show how Christ lived under the OC in a perfect OC way.
Tom said: Sorry Bob, but you have tried this spin before. Jesus is a NC figure, and so too his Gospel teaching.
Your view is so bizarre and outside the norm of church history and theology that there is no point in continuing. Those who deny Jesus Gospel Words, claiming they are OC in nature, and not for Christians, are standing outside the Kingdom of God. They are not Christians, but something else. Perhaps modern day Gnostics? They too made up doctrines and ignored the Gospel record.
Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Bob said: He spoke of His kingdom to come, but he offered no command for a NC "Gospel Sabbath."
Tom said: Just because people ignore the facts, it does not change the facts. Jesus taught a Gospel Sabbath for the church in all four Gospels. It is pointless to deny what is so clear and obvious.
Bob said: He had to live and talk about Sabbath because it was OC, in fact center of the OC, the Law with the fourth commandment central.
Tom said: Those who follow Christ must understand what he teaches about the law and the Gospel Sabbath. The very fact that you think he did not teach a NC Sabbath proves you are not paying attention to the NT. You are following another Christ.
Bob said: Christ lived His life perfectly. His death on the cross ushered in the NC.
Tom said: Jesus “ushered in the NC” at the start of his Gospel ministry. His Gospel teachings, including about the Sabbath, is doctrine for the church. At the cross, the NC was ratified, but the Gospel words of Christ had already been spoken.
Bob said: The preaching of the Gospel is more important than talking about the Gospel + something. That is the problem of SDAism. They preach another Gospel.
Tom said: Every church in Laodicea is preaching a false Gospel, including the SDA’s. This is why they all have a false view of the Sabbath and most everything else. NCT is part of the problem. They too are in the dark, blind to the Gospel.
It is time for the Advent people to wake up and complete Sabbath Reform.
It is time for them to repent for 1888 and Glacier View, understanding the Gospel, and developing correct, 21st century eschatology for the church.
It is time.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, it's been awhile but thought of your logic when I read Ted Wilson's Signs of the Times appeal. Here is some of it:
An Urgent Appeal
The church's growth rate is not really keeping pace with the world's burgeoning population. ....
"For 139 years Signs of the Times" has been winning people to Jesus and today the mission remains the same -- proclaim the third angel's message to every corner of the world. .....
The main story given besides Ted's appeal is a story about Shane and Amanda Kramlich. As the story is told, we find what the special unique message was. The Sabbath. All the other trimmings are there. So one should ask Ted the question, is the Gospel, Jesus saves or Jesus saves if you keep the Seventh Day Sabbath?? That is the question I would put to you. NCT has dealt with the issue, but you, an army of one, comes out with even "another Gospel" that includes your own deluded definition of what is different about the Sabbath you now keep from those before Jesus came.
Not much changes with time, eh, Tom???
What sanitizer have you scrubbed your Sabbath with that is different than Ted's sanitizer. You both preach "another gospel"
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:8, 9
This is pretty solemn stuff to be guessing what's behind Door #!, Door #2 or Door#3. I still don't understand what you reformed about the Sabbath to make it part of the Gospel.
Last edited by bob_2 (04-17-13 1:22 am)
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Tom, do you believe the Gospel was fully revealed before the desert experience of Paul? Here is the commission of Paul by Jesus. What more needed to be shown to Paul that wasn't already known by the disciples???The Gospel was given to Paul in the desert. We need to study him closely after his desert experience to know what "my gospel" that he refers to is, do we not??
Acts 26:15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’
“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.
Romans 16:25
25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,
Could the hidden mystery be your Reformed Sabbath? You do not read Acts clearly. Paul had a unique message given to him directly by Jesus. Could the import of this be a Reformed Sabbath???
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Tom, I agree with your earlier statement:
He is not saying that the ongoing Jewish Festivals, like the Passover, were abolished, or that Jewish Christians were wrong if they celebrated Passover. So long as everyone understood that all such shadows pointed to Christ. Thus they were free to enjoy the historic traditions of Judaism, including the NC Sabbath, as taught by Christ.
Jeus in his life on earth never commanded the Sabbath to be kept. Old, reformed or otherwise. People do have to concur on their meeting place, day and time. That is the only command I see to Christians:
Heb 10:24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
Last edited by bob_2 (04-17-13 10:48 pm)
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Interesting the Sabbath was not mentioned as the main topic on Jesus mind in this passage:
John 4:21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
Should your reformed Sabbath be of the consequence you state, show me where it is taught, clearly.
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Bob 2 said: Tom, it's been awhile but thought of your logic when I read Ted Wilson's Signs of the Times appeal.
Tom said: Nice to hear from you my friend.
For the record; I am not promoting my personal logic or ideas, but rather, the genuine Gospel of Christ, including what he teaches about the New Covenant Sabbath.
Ted Wilson is promoting Old Covenant Adventism, while Tom Norris is promoting New Covenant Adventism.
Ted Wilson is walking in his father’s footsteps; making the same wrong decisions that ruined the Advent Movement in the late 20th century. His Father was responsible for Glacier View, which has turned the SDA’s into a cultic laughing stock, with more critics than any other denomination in the world.
OC Adventism is no longer sustainable, credible, or worthy of defense. It must be rejected, replaced with Gospel Adventism, which includes a new and improved doctrine of the Pre-Advent Judgment and the Sabbath. OC Adventism has long been dead; it is time to move forward and embrace NC Adventism.
Bob 2 posted: Here is some of it:
An Urgent Appeal
The church's growth rate is not really keeping pace with the world's burgeoning population. ...."For 139 years Signs of the Times" has been winning people to Jesus and today the mission remains the same -- proclaim the third angel's message to every corner of the world. .....
Tom replied to Ted Wilson’s comment: First off, the SDA’s are following a false Christ of their own design, as evidenced by their many false doctrines. So let’s not pretend they have some special insight about Christ; they do not. Or that they are doing God’s will and saving souls for heaven. They are not. They are very much like the Jews, which is not a compliment.
Matt. 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Second, growth should not be an issue. It is NT truth that must drive the Advent Movement forward. Not the quest for popularity or the desire to build a large, earthly, empire.
The Advent Movement is about theological truth, not trying to achieve growth for the sake of growth and revenue. This is a very wrong and dangerous emphasis, proving that Wilson is on the wrong track, just like his father.
Third, the 3rd Angels Message, regardless how it is defined, is no longer an active, credible, or united Advent message. Rather, this unique SDA theology, which is part of a larger Adventist / Protestant paradigm, has crumbled in confusion, error, and corruption for all to see.
Today, there is no “present truth” being promoted by SDA’s, nor are they united in doctrine or purpose. Rather, they are disoriented, angry, and divided; unable to understand the past or present correctly, much less the future, which they ignore.
Adventism is caught up in a great crisis. They have very poor leadership and many false doctrines, and the OC system they have developed is corrupt, hierarchical, and against the Gospel.
The lack of Gospel truth is ruining the Advent Movement. THIS is why there is no growth in Adventism, - it has been swamped with error and incompetence for all to see. The 3rd Angels Message has crashed and burned years ago- in 1980 to be specific. Never to be resurrected.
Traditional, OC Adventism, which includes and features the IJ, is dead. It will never rise again. Ted Wilson needs to understand this fact and repent for what his father did at Glacier View.
All must understand that the 3rd Angels Message has terminated in great failure and embarrassment, - just like the previous Advent messages. While such discovery of error may be disheartening, humiliating, and painful, it is part of the process of pushing the church forward to better understand the Gospel and the last day events.
The discovery and error and its correction is the process that moves the church forward. In fact, the correction of error has propelled the Advent Movement forward through each phase of the Three Angels Message.
Every time there was a change to the next message, it was because of error, correction, and reform. Thus, the discovery of doctrinal error in the 3rd Angels Message, (like the IJ) and its correction, (new PAJ) is what leads the church to the next message, the 4th.
The 3rd Angels Message is full of error, myth and corruption. This is obvious to most all but the most cultic. This means it is time for the church to go forward. The Advent Movement must repent and move forward to the next level, which is known as the 4th Angels Message, aka, New Covenant Adventism. This is what Ted Wilson should be promoting. But no. He is wasting time trying to defend error and false doctrine.
The present push for Adventist Reform represents the third time that SDA’s have tried to shift their theology from the OC to the NC. The first attempt was during the 1888 period, which failed and almost destroyed the church. The second was about 100 years later, at Glacier View in 1980. This attempt also resulted in disaster and schism, turning the Adventist Community into a wasteland of anger and division.
Now, in the 21st century, at long last, it is time make this correct transition to NC Adventism, thus moving eschatology forward and reviving the Advent Movement.
Fourth; Adventism is about the future. Such an apocalyptical paradigm is meant to prepare the last church for the final events. Ted Wilson is making a mistake to try and lead the church back into the past, trying to defend and rehabilitate the failed and manipulated, 3rd Angels Message. Why live in the past? Why live in error?
Rather, he should lead the church to repent for both Glacier View and 1888. He should be leading the church forward to the 4th Angels Message. Forward, not backwards.
Bob 2 said: The main story given besides Ted's appeal is a story about Shane and Amanda Kramlich. As the story is told, we find what the special unique message was. The Sabbath. All the other trimmings are there.
Tom said: Ted Wilson is trying to save Old Covenant Adventism. This is the same mistake that his father made.
Dr. Ford was trying to remove error and shift Adventist theology forward from OC to NC. But Glacier View made OC Adventism official. This was a colossal mistake that is destroying Adventism.
OC Adventism, with its OC doctrines like tithe, Sabbath keeping and Jewish food laws are not NC doctrines, and neither is the IJ, where sanctification and law keeping determine salvation. This is all wrong and most everyone seems to know it but the SDA leaders.
Ted Wilson is wasting his time trying to pretend that OC Traditional Adventism is credible. The IJ is so wrong and so absurd as to be impossible, but yet he still pretends it is great Gospel truth. Just like his father. Silly SDA’s, they are just like the 1st century Jews. Sad.
Rom. 11:8 just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
The SDA’s are making fools of themselves, and Ted Wilson is leading the way, just like his father led the way at Glacier View. These blind Pharisees are leading the blind, and look at the results. Not good.
Luke 6:39 “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
The SDA’s have the WRONG doctrine of the Sabbath and the wrong PAJ, for which they must repent and reform. (Of course they have much more error, but this is where they must start). This is what the genuine Pre-Advent Judgment demands; the confession of error and false doctrine.
Bob 2 said: So one should ask Ted the question, is the Gospel, Jesus saves? or Jesus saves if you keep the Seventh Day Sabbath?? That is the question I would put to you.
Tom said: Here are some better correct questions: How does one define the Gospel and obtain Eternal Life? What does Jesus teach about the Sabbath?
Understand that the church has always had a weekly Sabbath day. They have never embraced this new idea about an Every Day, allegorical Sabbath, where Jesus is our rest.
So Wilson is not wrong to be embracing a Sabbath doctrine. But like all other churches, the SDA’s are in error about the Gospel Sabbath. They have not completed Sabbath Reform as they claim, nor do they have the correct doctrine as they boast. While they were on the right track, they lost their way in 1888 and they have never recovered.
Ted Wilson and the SDA’s embrace a false Gospel and an OC view of the Sabbath, which is OC and wrong. They should repent and embrace the NC Sabbath of Christ. But they don’t even know there is such a Gospel doctrine. It is not something they have ever imagined or studied. All they know is the Sabbath of Moses and the Law. They are blind to the Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
SDA’s Not Totally Wrong:
While the SDA’s were correct to declare Sunday a fraud, and to state that only the 7th day can be the NC Lord’s day for the church, they soon lost their way and became great legalists that misunderstood Jesus teachings about the Sabbath, as well as many other doctrines. They must repent, starting with the Sabbath, which they have wrong, and then moving on to repudiate the IJ and tithe, and on and on until the Gospel emerges in every doctrine.
Bob 2 said: NCT has dealt with the issue, but you, an army of one, comes out with even "another Gospel" that includes your own deluded definition of what is different about the Sabbath you now keep from those before Jesus came. Not much changes with time, eh, Tom???
Tom said: NCT misunderstands both the Gospel and the law, as well as church history and sound hermeneutics. Moreover, they also ignore and deny what Jesus teaches about the Gospel Sabbath, pretending that he teaches an Every Day allegorical Sabbath for the church, when the facts show otherwise.
This crowd is not being honest with the NT, and the more they argue, the further they distance themselves from the Spirit and the Word.
Bob 2 said: What sanitizer have you scrubbed your Sabbath with that is different than Ted's sanitizer. You both preach "another gospel"
Tom said: While the SDA’s preach the OC Sabbath of Moses and declare that all must obey the 4th commandment to be saved, they could not be more wrong. Jesus does not teach such legalism, - but the Pharisees did. Thus the SDA’s have embraced the Sabbath of the enemies of Christ. They are on the wrong side of the Gospel Story. They are Judaizers and false prophets.
Adventist Reform promotes a very different, NC view of the Sabbath as taught by Christ.
Because all are priests in the NC, all are exempt from the rules of the 4th commandment. Thus while Ted Wilson thinks it sinful to work on the Sabbath, Jesus teaches no such doctrine. Who is correct? Jesus or Ted Wilson?
Jesus transformed the OC, law based Sabbath, into a living NC metaphor for the Gospel, where working on the Sabbath results in innocence, not guilt. Thus the genuine Gospel Sabbath is an active, 7th day, full of activity, freedom, and joy. It is a Gospel day, not a Law day.
Ted Wilson knows nothing of the Gospel Sabbath, and neither does any SDA until they repent of their OC mindset and fully embrace the NC.
Bob 2 quoted Paul:
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:8, 9
Tom said: I agree there is only one Gospel and one NC doctrine of the Sabbath for the church.
This Galatian passage also shows how easy it was for the highest leaders in the apostolic church to misunderstand the Gospel and embrace error. If Peter and James were so easily fooled into embracing error, how much easier for us today?
Ted Wilson is no apostle or even a theologian; he happily embraces a false Gospel. This is the norm in Laodicea. Let all beware false doctrine and the false prophets that teach it.
Bob 2 said: I still don't understand what you reformed about the Sabbath to make it part of the Gospel.
Tom said: Don’t shoot the messenger. I am not the Lord of the Sabbath, nor have I ever made such a claim.
I have “reformed” nothing.
However, Jesus made large claims for himself and for his reformed, NC, Gospel Sabbath, which he changed for all to see. It is Jesus who teaches a reformed, working Sabbath as part of his Gospel theology. All that claim to follow him must understand what he teaches about the Sabbath and embrace it.
Bob 2 said: Tom, do you believe the Gospel was fully revealed before the desert experience of Paul?
Tom said: Yes. Jesus taught and lived the Gospel before Paul ever repented and became a Christian. Moreover, Jesus sent Peter to the Gentiles before Paul was part of the church. Jesus did not teach Paul a different Gospel. Such a view is nonsense.
Bob 2 said: Here is the commission of Paul by Jesus. What more needed to be shown to Paul that wasn't already known by the disciples???
Tom said: While Paul was a great, educated, apostle, he was not an eyewitness to the cross, nor was he one of the original apostles. He did not receive a different Gospel from the others in any way whatsoever.
Bob 2 said: The Gospel was given to Paul in the desert. We need to study him closely after his desert experience to know what "my gospel" that he refers to is, do we not??
Tom said: We need to study Christ and his Gospel, first and foremost. Jesus’ Gospel was given to the 12 apostles. This resulted in 4 separate and official Gospel accounts. We should all study Jesus (in the Gospels) to better understand his genuine Gospel teachings. Should we not?
Paul is not greater than Christ. If you want to understand Jesus teachings about anything, including the Sabbath, you must first go directly to Christ in the Gospels. Learn from him before you go to others.
Paul’s reference to “my Gospel,” is meant to distinguish his theology from the many false views that were circulating in the church. He does not mean that he has a better or different Gospel from the others. In fact, we know this because Paul speaks to this point:
Gal. 2:1 Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also.
Gal. 2:2 It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain.
Paul was told by God to present his view of the Gospel to the church leaders. His Gospel turned out to be the same as their Gospel. Even though years later, the leading apostles fell away and Paul had to protest their error, defending the original Gospel they had all been taught by Christ.
Bob 2 quoted: Romans 16:25 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,
Tom said: What is this “hidden mystery” ? Do we know? Yes. Judaism was to make a change from law to faith, thus creating a “new” Christian “man” from both Jew and Gentile.
The Church is the new Israel. No one saw that mystery coming. It took the Jews, and the Gentile world, by surprise.
Eph. 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Eph. 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
Eph. 2:15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into done new man, thus establishing peace,
Eph. 2:16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
Eph. 2:17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR;
Eph. 2:18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
Eph. 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,
Eph. 2:20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
Eph. 2:21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
Eph. 2:22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
Bob 2 asked: Could the hidden mystery be your Reformed Sabbath?
Tom replied: While the Gospel Sabbath seems like a great mystery to the church today, this is not what Paul is speaking about.
The Gospel Story, which contains the reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ, is a mystery to many. Only a few will understand and be saved.
The specific mystery under discussion is this: the NC church would replace OC Judaism, joining together both Jew and Gentile on an equal basis in the Kingdom of God.
Eph. 3:2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you;
Eph. 3:3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.
Eph. 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
Eph. 3:5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
Eph. 3:6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
Eph. 3:7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.
Eph. 3:8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,
Eph. 3:9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;
Eph. 3:10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.
Eph. 3:11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose, which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,
Eph. 3:12 in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.
Bob 2 said: You do not read Acts clearly. Paul had a unique message given to him directly by Jesus. Could the import of this be a Reformed Sabbath???
Tom said: Paul did not receive a different or unique Gospel from Christ. Such a view, which would place Jesus at war with Pauline theology, is specifically debunked in Acts. Paul understood the Gospel of Christ correctly, including the NC Sabbath of Christ.
In conclusion, it is time for the Adventist Community to embrace serious Gospel Reform and Reformation. While the Adventists were correct to understand there must be a Pre Advent Judgment of the church, they were wrong to embrace Dan 8: 14 as the source. Rev 3: 14 is the genuine PAJ, and it is time for the SDA’s to repent of the IJ and embrace the correct PAJ. The failure to make this transition will be their doom.
The SDA’s were also correct to claim Sunday was a fraud, and that only the 7th day could be the NC Sabbath for the church.
They were correct to understand that Sabbath Reform was necessary before the final Gospel message could be correctly preached. But they failed to complete Sabbath Reform. They failed to find the Gospel Sabbath of Christ, even though they claim otherwise. For this they must also repent.
All should not only repudiate OC, traditional Adventism, which features the IJ, tithe, and OC Sabbath keeping, but make the transition forward to NC Adventism, which contains the correct doctrine of the Sabbath as well as the true doctrine of the PAJ.
NC Adventism, which also represents the 4th Angels Message in SDA eschatology, is the correct path for the divided and confused Adventist Community. All should repent of their OC ways and migrate forward to Gospel Adventism.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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Tom, the Sabbath fulfilled by Christ (2 Cor 2:16-17)became our peace(Eph 2: 14-18) is attained by acceptance of Jesus. . However there is still a command to "forsake not the assembling of ourselves together. The need for a Sabbath doctrine in the Gospel is unnecessary with Christ as our peace, the ultimate goal of the Gospel - Rest/Peace. Like the GCI group that kept Sabbath, they with their reform have congregations that meet on both days. The day is not the issue, but do you believe in the right Jesus, Son of God the Peace Giver.
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Tom said: Bob, why are you silent about NC Adventism? Why would you not want all doctrine to be based on the NC teachings of Christ?
Why would you not want the SDA’s to fully embrace the NC?
All SDA’s should repent for their OC views and make the transition to NC Adventism, and so too the former SDA’s such as yourself. I have already done this, years ago, what is taking you so long?
It is not enough for SDA’s to reject false doctrine, like the IJ, Tithe, and OC Sabbath keeping. While it is good that so many have turned their backs on such false doctrine, the discovery of error is not the same as finding truth. It is a good start for such a process, but it is not enough.
In other words, while many have come to realize that the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath is wrong, few have taken the trouble to find the correct and true Sabbath of Christ. This is the problem, which must be corrected.
Let all search to find the true Christ, with his amazing, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. NCT has failed to find either.
Bob 2 said: Tom, the Sabbath fulfilled by Christ (2 Cor 2:16-17)became our peace(Eph 2: 14-18) is attained by acceptance of Jesus.
Tom replied: There is no such Sabbath doctrine as you claim. Which is why you cannot show Christ supporting these views. And why you run from the Gospels, eager to quote others about the Sabbath-- instead of Christ. This is very wrong and telling.
Jesus NEVER claimed to be the fulfillment of the Sabbath, nor did he change it from a 7th day doctrine to an Every Day, allegorical Sabbath as you teach.
The Sabbath views of NCT are not grounded in the Gospels, nor do they represent what Jesus teaches over and over about the NC Sabbath. This is the problem.
While I understand the need for those escaping from OC Adventism to find a replacement doctrine for the legalistic Sabbath, they have only embraced more error. False doctrine is not to be corrected by more false doctrine. That is not theological progress.
Bob2 said: However there is still a command to "forsake not the assembling of ourselves together.
Tom said: Why do you look to sources, other than Christ, to understand the Sabbath?
Jesus is the head theologian and 1st apostle of the church. What he teaches about the Sabbath is what all must embrace. Period. Even the SDA’s.
If anyone wants to understand the NC Sabbath, they must go to Christ in the Gospels and learn from him. Do not run off to one isolated passage here or there, as you always do. But rather, go to the source, to the Lord of the Sabbath, and learn the Gospel Sabbath directly from him.
Those Christians who fail to come to Christ to learn his view of the Sabbath will be lost. They are following a false Christ, and they refuse to repent when this fact of pointed out.
Bob 2 said: The need for a Sabbath doctrine in the Gospel is unnecessary with Christ as our peace, the ultimate goal of the Gospel - Rest/Peace.
Tom replied: Who are you to declare that Christ teaches false and worthless doctrine? If this is not gross and arrogant blasphemy, I do not understand what would be. Sad.
Did Christ declare himself to be the Lord of the unnecessary Sabbath? Hardly. Did he claim to be the Sabbath rest for the church? No. So why would anyone try and put false words and doctrines in the mouth of Christ?
If the Sabbath is unnecessary for the church, why did Jesus spend so much time teaching, defending, and debating it? Jesus has so much to say about the Sabbath, both the OC and NC versions, that one would have to be blind not to see all this in the NT. But yet, many are blind to the Gospel, even as thy claim to be promoting truth.
On whose authority do you declare the Sabbath unnecessary and obsolete? Did Jesus teach such a view? No. So why do you?
The Gospel of Christ includes his reformed, NC Sabbath, where work is no longer sinful. Why pretend that Jesus does not teach a doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath for the church? He does. Such a fact is self-evident in all four Gospels.
It is far too late in history for anyone to declare there is no weekly Sabbath for the church. The church has never adopted such a view, nor will they ever repudiate a weekly day to meet, as was the custom of the Jesus and the Jews. Thus, NCT is wasting everyone’s time with utter nonsense and garbage.
Because Jesus spends so much time reforming, defending, and promoting, the NC Sabbath, there is no excuse for anyone to promote such a false view. Shame on those too trite and shallow to search for truth. Shame on those who refuse to go to Christ to learn Gospel doctrine.
Bob 2 said: Like the GCI group that kept Sabbath, they with their reform have congregations that meet on both days. The day is not the issue, but do you believe in the right Jesus, Son of God the Peace Giver.
Tom said: The genuine Christ is revealed in the Gospels. While you claim he is a “peace giver,” (to support your false view of the Sabbath), Jesus refutes such a title. He teaches that he came to bring division and Judgment upon the earth, not peace.
Luke 12:51 “Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;
While God is the author of peace, and Jesus does give Gospel peace to the forgiven sinner, such a fact does not negate what he teaches about the NC Sabbath. Those who say such things are acting very foolish and dishonest.
Col. 3:15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in bone body; and be thankful.
2Th. 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
John 16:33 “These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”
Moreover, the term “rest,” which is used by the NCT crowd to define the meaning of the Sabbath, is rarely used by Christ and never once associated with the Sabbath. Such a fact is fatal to this absurd definition of the Sabbath by NCT. But they don’t care. They have become very found of false doctrine.
Matt. 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
Matt. 11:29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
Jesus gives spiritual rest to those who follow him 24/7. The weekly Sabbath does not.
Besides, Jesus NC Sabbath is an active, working Sabbath, not a resting one. Thus there is no resting Sabbath in the NC, which proves the SDA’s very wrong and so too the legions that have left them to embrace more Sabbath error.
Furthermore, the church does not get to pick and choose whatever type of Sabbath doctrine is convenient. While this is what they have all done, it is wrong.
Only Christ can define and authorize any Sabbath doctrine for the church. Those who think they can pick whatever day, and whatever meaning, are being very foolish. They will not be saved because they are following a false Christ and a worthless Gospel, having also removed the Moral law as having any meaning or purpose. Big mistake.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”
Matt. 7:28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;
Those interested in Gospel truth today, must study the Gospels to find it. The NC, doctrine of the Sabbath, as taught by Christ, is truth for the church. What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, is what all must embrace. Period.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
It is time for the confused Advent Community to grow up and follow the Gospel teachings of Christ in all things, including what he teaches about the reformed, active, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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Tom, I think of the issue from an evangelizing standpoint. If you have to have a person rearrange their work schedule, their livilhoods, then they have made the Sabbath a part of the Gospel. It is one thing to say that is when we meet. Anyone wanting to hear the message would try to be there or log on to see the message after the service. When we ask people to make this sort of major rearrangement, with all the stories of kids and their Friday night football or basketball game "the Lord" helped them get out of, that institution has made the Sabbath salvific.
Last edited by bob_2 (04-27-13 3:23 pm)
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Tom :
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Where did He command the Sabbath to be kept??
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Here’s the New Covenant Sabbath:
Col. 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
1 John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
Here’s how we break it: Grieving the Hoy Spirit by what we do against our fellow man.
EPHESIANS 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
GAL 5:14 For ALL the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The law is Spiritual. We walk after the Spirit, not the letter engraved in stones. His Spirit is the law, and we prove our love to Him in how we treat our fellow man. That was the demonstration of Christ’s life. Let this mind be in you. Keeping a day won’t save you. We keep Him. He is the Sabbath spoken about in Hebrews chap 4. If you hear His voice to day harden not your hearts. It’s the day that Joshua could not give. He is our Sabbath rest. We keep every day alike. Romans 14.
Here's some more:
Holy Spirit Is Our Sabbath
It doesn't matter weather you go by the Roman calendar or the moon. They are both past. We no longer go by the literal keeping of a day. We have the true Sabbath which is the anointing of the Holy Spirit: "Christ in us". The law is spiritual! Shiloh has come in us.
Gen.49:10 "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be".
Strong's #7886: Shiyloh (pronounced shee-lo')
from 7951; tranquil; Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah:--Shiloh.
Or shalav (Job 3:26) {shaw-lav'}; a primitive root; to be tranquil, i.e. Secure or successful -- be happy, prosper, be in safety.
Jesus promised to give us rest, "Take my rest upon you", and "peace, not as the world giveth give I unto you".
Sounds pretty tranquil to me.
He is the rest, not a day.
As most of the world goes by the Roman calendar, most commerce is done during the Mon.-Fri. weekdays. Which day people gather on is a matter of convenience. Some keep Sunday, others Saturnday, but not under law.
In the early church, "They, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart".
Does anyone do that any more? Hardly, but there are some. Paul tells us that some keep one day or another, and others every day alike. There is no longer any holy day of obligation.
Cadge
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Bob 2 said: Tom, I think of the issue from an evangelizing standpoint.
Tom replied: No. We must think of the Sabbath in the context of the Gospel teaching of Christ. When Jesus began his NC ministry, his reformed Gospel Sabbath was a large part of his “amazing” teachings.
In fact, as soon as Jesus had a handful of committed apostles, he “immediately” went to the synagogue on the next Sabbath day and started to preach the Gospel, which included his reformed, NC Sabbath.
Mark 1:16 As He was going along by the Sea of Galilee, He saw Simon and Andrew, the brother of Simon, casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen.
Mark 1:17 And Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men.”
Mark 1:18 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him.
Mark 1:19 Going on a little farther, He saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who were also in the boat mending the nets.
Mark 1:20 Immediately He called them; and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants, and went away to follow Him.
Mark 1:21 They *went into Capernaum; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach.
Mark 1:22 They were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
So we must think of the Sabbath from the standpoint of how Jesus thinks of the Sabbath. What did Jesus teach about the Sabbath? This is the question? Those that “follow” him must embrace what he teaches about the Sabbath. Period.
Jesus taught a new doctrine about the Sabbath from the very beginning of his Gospel Ministry. While Matthew does not mention the Sabbath until chapter 12, Mark features Jesus Sabbath teaching and debates from the very beginning in Chapter 1, and again in chapter 2 and again in chapter 3!
Mark 1:21 They *went into Capernaum; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach.
Mark 2:23 And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain.
Mark 2:24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Mark 3:2 They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him.
Mark 3:4 And He *said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to kill?” But they kept silent.
Mark 6:2 When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?
No honest person can ignore what Jesus in teaching about the Sabbath in Mark or any of the other Gospels. This is all that matters: WHAT DOES JESUS TEACH ABOUT THE SABBATH?
It is a very simple concept. If Jesus teaches that the Gospel Sabbath is on Sunday, or that it is an Every Day state of spiritual rest, so be it.
If Jesus teaches that the SDA view is correct, so be it. But if he does not, then shame on the SDA’s, who claim to understand the Bible better than all others.
This is not about what we would like, but what Christ in the NT has taught. Woe to those who teach a false view of his doctrine, they are following a false Christ.
We must think of the Sabbath like Christ thinks of the Sabbath. Nothing less. Nothing more.
Bob 2 said: If you have to have a person rearrange their work schedule, their livilhoods, then they have made the Sabbath a part of the Gospel.
Tom replied: The doctrine of the Sabbath is part of the Gospel Story. All four Gospels show Jesus teaching, defending, and promoting a very radical and different view of the Sabbath that was rejected by the leaders.
Christ made the doctrine of the Sabbath a central feature of his Gospel Ministry. For which the Jews killed him. It was over Jesus new view of the Sabbath.
So the Sabbath is forever part of the Gospel Story. It cannot be removed or ignored, as many do.
Second, you are thinking of the OC Sabbath when you talk about the interruption of life and the hardship of trying to keep the Sabbath. Forget that. The NC Sabbath has no prohibition against work, play, travel, cooking, etc. Which is why the first Gentile converts were Roman Soldiers. The Christian Sabbath allowed work by all. It was not at all like the Jewish OC Sabbath, where it was sinful to work on the 7th day. For the early Christian, it was not.
Bob 2 said: It is one thing to say that is when we meet. Anyone wanting to hear the message would try to be there or log on to see the message after the service. When we ask people to make this sort of major rearrangement, with all the stories of kids and their Friday night football or basketball game "the Lord" helped them get out of, that institution has made the Sabbath salvific.
Tom said: There is still a NC Sabbath for the church regardless how it fits with culture.
The NC Sabbath can only be on the 7th day, and it is NOT sinful for the kids to play football on Friday night. The NC Sabbath allows for any and all good works, which includes play.
The Gospel Sabbath is such a new and unknown doctrine, that it will take some time for the church to even comprehend it, much less work out the best way to embrace the 7th day Gospel Sabbath.
The NC Sabbath of Christ is an amazing doctrine. It really seems too good to be true. But then again, so too does the Gospel.
The recent discovery and articulation of the NC, 7th day Sabbath is a game changer. It is a paradigm shifting doctrine for the Advent Movement, one that has come along just in time, along with the discovery of the true Pre-Advent Judgment in Rev 3: 14.
It is time for all those who went from the error of OC Sabbath keeping to the error of NCT to repent. They only went from one false doctrine to another.
Now it is time for all to learn the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath from Christ. Not from the dishonest SDA’s or their confused critics. But from Christ himself, the head theologian of the church.
What does Jesus teach about the Sabbath? This is what matters most.
I hope this helps you escape the clutches of false doctrine.
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism and the Gospel Sabbath of Christ
Offline
Bob asked Tom:
Where did He command the Sabbath to be kept??
Tom said: Your question assumes, among some other things, that it was the OC Sabbath that must be commanded and kept. But Jesus did not teach OC Sabbath keeping. Nor is this what I am promoting through Adventist Reform.
In fact, Jesus promoted a very different NC view of the Sabbath, - one that did not have to be “kept” free of work.
So you will never find Jesus or the apostles talking about “Sabbath keeping” because such a term only applies to the OC, non-working, Sabbath of Judaism.
The Christian Sabbath, aka, the Lord’s Day, is different from the Sabbath doctrine of the Jews. Same day, and same reason, (memorial to Creation), but a very different doctrine.
The Reformed Sabbath of Christ
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228
Let all understand that Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath stunned and amazed the Jews. And it will do the same thing today in Laodicea, where every church and denomination is blind to genuine Gospel of Christ and what he really teaches about the Sabbath.
Mark 1:22 They were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority!
Luke 4:32 and they were amazed at His teaching, for His message was with authority.
Stop looking for something from Jesus that you will never find, and stop using myths to support false doctrine. Jesus does not teach or command OC Sabbath keeping, and I never said he did. It was the SDA’s who make this claim, just as they also teach that Jesus paid tithe, which he never did.
Regardless, Jesus clearly teaches a unique, NC doctrine of the Sabbath, which is very different, even the opposite of the OC Sabbath of the Jews, which divided, confused, and enraged them.
Luke 23:5 But they kept on insisting, saying, “He stirs up the people, teaching all over Judea, starting from Galilee even as far as this place.”
Those radical Jews who followed Christ’s Gospel / Sabbath teaching, placed themselves in danger of ridicule, imprisonment, and death. And it was in this context that Jesus also teaches that Eternal Life is only for those that embrace his words about the law, Sabbath, and salvation.
To “follow Christ” is to embrace his view of the Sabbath and all else.
Matt. 10:38 “And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
When Jesus asked people to follow him, he means that they are to understand and embrace what he is teaching about God, sin, and salvation, including the Sabbath, even if it leads them to be tortured on a Roman cross. One cannot follow Christ and then not embrace his views, even in the face of death.
Luke 5:27 After that He went out and noticed a tax collector named Levi sitting in the tax booth, and He said to him, “Follow Me.”
Luke 5:28 And he left everything behind, and got up and began to follow Him.
Matthew was not a kitten following a ball string. No, he was following Jesus because he believed his Gospel message and thus he left behind his OC view of the Sabbath, and embraced what Jesus was teaching on this and other points. So too must all that follow him.
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore aeveryone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Jesus' Words, sayings, and teachings represent Gospel truth for mankind, including what he teaches about the 7th day weekly Sabbath.
John 6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have bwords of eternal life.
So what was Jesus teaching about the Sabbath? Answer this question correctly and you will know what to believe on this point.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
Those who were healed by Christ on the Sabbath rejoiced in their newfound vigor. They were naturally grateful to Christ and willing to embrace his Gospel teachings, including and especially what he teaches about the active Sabbath, where all manner of work is now permitted on the 7th day. The NC Sabbath enabled their healing, whereby the OC Sabbath would have prevented their cure.
John 9:29 “We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, awe do not know where He is from.”
John 9:30 The man answered and said to them, “Well, here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes.
John 9:31 “We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.
John 9:32 “Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind.
John 9:33 “If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.”
John 9:34 They answered him, “You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?” So they put him out.
John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
John 9:36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”
John 9:37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.”
John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
All that want to be healed by the Gospel and granted Eternal Life from Christ, had better repent of their false views of the law and the Sabbath and only embrace what Christ teaches. To “believe in Christ,” is to embrace his active, 7th day Sabbath. Period.
Those who play games with the Gospel, and pretend that Jesus does not teach such a weekly doctrine, or that there is no 7th day Sabbath for the church, are committing blasphemy. They are not following Christ or his written Word. They are refuting him.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
Jesus Sabbath teaching is part of the Gospel, and until what he is saying about the 7th day Sabbath is better understood and embraced, one cannot fully understand the Gospel.
All must go to Christ in the Gospels and learn the Sabbath from him.
If Jesus teaches the Sabbath should become an Every Day state of spiritual rest. So be it. If he teaches that Sunday is the NC Sabbath; so be it again. If he teaches there is no Sabbath, then fine. The point is, we don’t get to choose what Sabbath doctrine we like. Only Christ can make doctrine for the church.
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
This begs the question: What does Jesus teach about the Sabbath? Did he abolish or Reform it? Is it Sunday or Saturday? Or is it Every Day or No Day? Whatever doctrine Jesus teaches, we must “believe in his words” and “follow” him.
Matt. 10:25 “It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master
John 8:29 “And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.”
John 8:30 As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him.
John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
John 7:16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
John 7:17 “If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Let all go to Christ in the Gospels and learn about the Gospel Sabbath. This is the source for all NC doctrine, much less the Sabbath, which is prominently featured in all four Gospels.
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
Those who are truly following Christ, will be where he is when it comes to the doctrine of the Sabbath and all else. Jesus teaching about the Sabbath must be the view of those who claim to follow him.
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
Moreover, Jesus Sabbath teachings are his commandments. The Sabbath is but one of many points covered by the teachings of Christ. None of what he teaches is optional, or subject to revision or elimination. Thus when the NT says that we are to keep the commandments of Jesus, that means all that he teaches, -including the Sabbath.
John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
John 15:10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
Jesus radical view of the Sabbath is part of his “commandments.” In fact, it was a very important part of his Gospel theology.
Too bad the SDA’s could not figure out how to define the NC Sabbath correctly. But error, once exposed, seeks correction, and now, because of the obvious error of the SDA Sabbath doctrine, we have been driven to find the answer and complete Sabbath Reform, -- which is a paradigm changing point for the Advent Movement. One that is long overdue.
The SDA Pioneers were not wrong to push Sabbath Reform, even though they ended up embracing the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath.
But now, thanks to Dr. Ford, the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath has emerged for all to see, and so too a new and improved doctrine of the Pre- Advent Judgment. The IJ has not only been discredited and proved wrong, but the correct locastion of the PAJ has been located. Such eschatological progress will save the Advent Movement and push it forword.
Rejoice and be glad. It is time for the resurrection of the Advent Movement. This is something that Ellen White predicted, even as she saw a time when the Laodicean Message, (which is the real PAJ) would change everything for the Adventist Community.
In other words, the shaking of the SDA’s would be caused by Rev 3: 14 correcting the error of Dan 8: 14. The correct PAJ must replace what is in error.
Listen to Ellen White:
The Lord calls for a renewal of the straight testimony borne in years past. He calls for a renewal of spiritual life. The spiritual energies of His people have long been torpid, but there is to be a resurrection from apparent death. By prayer and confession of sin we must clear the King's highway.--8T 297 (1904).
I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people.--1T 181 (1857).
It is time for the Advent Movement to (once again) repent for false doctrine and error and move forward to the next level – the 4th Angels Message. This final Gospel message will contain the correct doctrine of the Sabbath, as well as the Judgment, and church organization, etc.
There is no room for the Every Day Sabbath in the 4th Angels Message. Why? Because there is no such a doctrine taught by Christ in the Gospels. So NCT is not the proper solution to combat the incorrect Sabbath doctrine of the Sunday keepers or the SDA’s.
Rather, the only solution to false doctrine is true doctrine. The Gospels are clear as to what Sabbath doctrine Jesus teaches. He teaches a Gentile friendly, active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath, where working is no longer sinful. This is the correct view for the church.
The SDA’s were correct to learn about the Sabbath from the SDB’s.
They were correct to point out the error of Sunday, and to teach that only the 7th day can be the NC Lord’s day for the church.
They are also correct to understand that the final Gospel Reformation, (Rev 18), would contain the correct doctrine of the Sabbath and would in fact divide and reform the last church.
Of course this has not happened as yet. But it must. When the Gospel is fully understood, so too all Gospel doctrine, including and especially the Sabbath, which is the most public and visible of all church teaching.
While it is obvious that the SDA’s have acted like the 1st century Christian Jews by falling into legalism, it is time to confess and repent. This is what the genuine Pre-Advent Judgment is saying to everyone.
Let all who claim to follow the genuine Christ, do so. Including what he teaches about his amazing, active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath.
It is time for the Advent Movement to go forward.
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
Offline
Cadge, nice to hear from you again.
However, if you are trying to defend this Every Day allegorical Sabbath, you will fail. Jesus does not teach this nonsense, which is why you will never find him saying such things about the Sabbath in the Gospels. Why not admit your error and repent? Why fight against Gospel doctrine?
Let all understand, when Jesus uses the word Sabbath, it is only a reference to the 7th day of the week, not to Sunday or to all days of the week. To say otherwise is absurd and clearly false. Which is why no serious scholar has ever embraced such a position.
You have not helped the NCT cause by claiming that the NC Sabbath is Jesus. The 7th day is not Jesus.
Why have you confused a doctrine about a 24-hour day of the week, and the creation of the world, with the very person of Christ, who created the world? The NT does not support such confusion and incoherence.
Jesus teaches that the Sabbath was made for mankind. But if Jesus is the Sabbath, then that would mean Jesus was made for man.
But Jesus was not made for man. He pre-existed before man, and thus man was made for him. You have it very wrong.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Note also, man was made for good works, not rest.
Eph. 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Matt. 5:16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
How fitting that the Gospel Sabbath is about “good works” and not rest. This is the opposite from the OC Sabbath, which was a forced rest, under pain of death. One could not do any works on the OC Sabbath, (unless one were a Levite). Thus the tutor, or “schoolmaster” Sabbath is not to be confused with the Gospel Sabbath.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
No Christian is “under” the law of the 4th Commandment. None who follow Christ should ever think it their duty to keep the 7th day holy by not working. The SDA’s have made a huge error for which they must repent, but NCT is not the proper correction. Resting is not what the NC Sabbath represents.
Man is not made for rest and neither is the Gospel Sabbath. So this new emphasis on a spiritual Sabbath that features rest 7 days a week is impossible and wrong. It is dishonest and worthless error.
Rest is not what the Gospel Sabbath is all about, even though this is what most all think, because of it’s OC origins. But those who think this way about the Sabbath are too OC minded and very wrong. All SDA’s are going to struggle with this new view as they have been brainwashed to believe myths, that die hard. They are very much like the 1st century Jews.
I see you failed to quote from Christ about the Sabbath. Why is that? I don’t understand any of your quotes. They do not speak to the point.
Cadge quoted: EPHESIANS 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, For ALL the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The law is Spiritual.
Tom said: What does this text have to do with the Gospel Sabbath of Christ? This passage does not speak to the issues; much less explain any doctrine of the Sabbath.
Cadge said: We walk after the Spirit, not the letter engraved in stones.
Tom said: The Spirit directs all to the words of Jesus, including what he teaches about the Sabbath. The Spirit does not speak on it’s own behalf, but can only point to Jesus, including what he teaches about the NC Sabbath.
John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
Here is the real issue; what does Jesus teach about the Sabbath?
Does Jesus teach that he or the Spirit is the Sabbath? Or that there is no Sabbath? Or that it is now to become an Every Day doctrine in an allegorical sense?
The Spirit does not teach such double-talk, nor does Jesus, or the NT.
Cadge said: His Spirit is the law, and we prove our love to Him in how we treat our fellow man.
Tom said: We prove our love to Christ by following what he teaches. Including what he teaches about the Sabbath.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
John 14:25 “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you.
John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Cadge said: That was the demonstration of Christ’s life. Let this mind be in you. Keeping a day won’t save you. We keep Him. He is the Sabbath spoken about in Hebrews chap 4.
Tom said: Those of the same mind as Christ, will only view the NC Sabbath - the same as Christ. The Sabbath was Jesus’ special day. This is why he claimed to be its’ Lord, and why it is called the Lord’s Day by John the apostle. Jesus has much to say about the Sabbath. We must listen.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
While the SDA’s claim one must “keep” the 7th day “holy” by not working, Jesus does not teach such an OC doctrine. However, he does teach a doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath in all 4 Gospels, - but so far, not one church, including the SDA’s, has fully understood or embraced what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath. This must change and it will change.
As the Sprit moves people to search for Gospel Truth, many will go to the Gospels and find Eternal Life through the teachings of Jesus, which includes what he teaches about the Lord’s Day.
Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
This popular myth that claims Jesus is our Sabbath rest, is ludicrous. Such amateur theology reflects an allegorized, fictionalized, false view of Christ. It does not reflect what the NT teaches, or what any church, Catholic or Protestant, has ever practiced.
I repeat, NCT is so bad, that no church or denomination has ever embraced this utter nonsense and double-talk. But who knows, one day it might become doctrine for some confused denomination?
To follow Christ is to follow what he teaches about everything, including the Sabbath. The fact that few have any idea what he teaches is beside the point.
So no. We don’t “keep Jesus,” as if he were an OC Sabbath day, or any day. This is nonsense. Jesus is not a day, or a month or a year. He is not a measure of time. How can any sane person confuse the difference between a person and a day of the week?
Moreover, Hebrews does not say that Jesus is the Sabbath, and neither does any other book in the Bible. This idea that Jesus is the NC Sabbath is as false as the Sunday Sabbath or the Easter Bunny. There is zero truth to such utter nonsense and double-talk.
Let all repent from such false and impossible doctrine.
Let all find the true Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
Cadge said: If you hear His voice today harden not your hearts. It’s the day that Joshua could not give. He is our Sabbath rest. We keep every day alike.
Tom said: Question? Did Jesus “keep every day alike”? Did he teach his disciples to view the 7th day like any other day of the week? No, no, and no.
Jesus treated the 7th day very special, unlike any other day of the week. Which is why the NT shows him going to the synagogue every Sabbath to teach the Gospel and heal people.
In fact, the day was so special for Christ that he claimed to be its protector and Lord. This is why the 7th day is known as the Lord’s Day in the NT. Not the “Lord’s Week.” So all days are not alike, nor will they ever be all alike.
Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day,
Jesus never said what you claim. In fact, he never even rested on the Sabbath, much less claimed to be that rest.
This is the problem. You and many others have embraced great myth and error about Christ and the Sabbath, all in a much-needed effort to escape the error of the SDA Sabbath. But you failed to find the genuine NC Sabbath of Christ. You went from error to more error and you need to admit this fact and repent of NCT.
You were correct to repudiate the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath, but incorrect to fall for this 1970’s myth that was invented by some bored religious minds. You have never understood the doctrine of the NC Sabbath correctly at any time in your life, and it is time to make a correction.
Dr. Ford, the man who proved the IJ false and brought the Gospel to the late 20th century SDA’s, refused to embrace this nonsense. When Richard Fredericks and others adopted NCT, he turned away from them. Why? Because they had turned away from the Gospel.
Dr Ford knows that only the 7th day can be the weekly, NC Sabbath for the church. There is no such thing as an Every Day Sabbath or a Sunday Lord’s day.
I repeat; Jesus is not a day. Rather he is the creator of the world and the Sabbath, as well as OC Judaism and the NC Church. No one should confuse such things.
Cadge said: Holy Spirit Is Our Sabbath
Tom replied: Wrong. Jesus is not a Day, nor is the HS a doctrine about the Sabbath. Such nonsense is not real or serious theology. It is amateur hour for those who refuse to honestly and systematically deal with the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels.
Cadge said: It doesn't matter weather you go by the Roman calendar or the moon. They are both past. We no longer go by the literal keeping of a day.
Tom said: Again, there is to be no “keeping” of the OC Sabbath, which was a literal day that viewed work as sinful.
Rather, the NC 7th day is to be acknowledged as the Lord’s Day, by those who follow him. Every 7th day. It is a weekly day to hear the Gospel and fellowship with others who also follow Christ, even as there are no restrictions against any kind of good works or play.
The Sabbath is not a day of rest in the NC. The SDA’s are wrong on this point.
Cadge said: We have the true Sabbath which is the anointing of the Holy Spirit: "Christ in us".
Tom said: Jesus is not the Sabbath. He is not a day, nor does he teach that he is our symbolic Sabbath rest.
The true Sabbath is the 7th day, active Sabbath of Christ, where it is no longer a sin to work and where all are equal and free under the Gospel. This is the true Lord’s Day.
Cadge said: As most of the world goes by the Roman calendar, most commerce is done during the Mon.-Fri. weekdays. Which day people gather on is a matter of convenience.
Tom said: The Gospel teaching of Christ transcends both convenience and culture. The Jews were famous all around the world for their strict, non-working Sabbath. The Greeks viewed them as lazy for that very reason, while the Romans gave up on trying to make the Jews into soldiers.
Whatever Jesus teaches is what matters. Who cares what the world does or does not do? Those who follow Christ are not trying to follow the world. So I don’t understand your point here.
Cadge said: Some keep Sunday, others Saturday, but not under law.
Tom said: First, the very fact that some keep Sunday and others Saturday underscores the fact that no one viewed all days alike. NCT is utter nonsense.
The church has never embraced the Everyday Sabbath, nor did the church ever embrace this concept, which can be found in the writings of the early church Fathers.
Second, the reason why the church opted for Sunday as the Lord’s Day, is because they knew that they were not supposed to be under the OC law. They were also very anti-Semitic, wanting to separate the Christian faith from Judaism.
So rather than figure out the correct, 7th day, NC Sabbath, they took another day that made the same point.
But then the Gentile Christians also made the mistake to treat Sunday as if it were like the OC Sabbath, and thus work was prohibited. This is wrong.
Sunday is really based on the OC view of the Sabbath, which is why many “blue” laws have been made around the world to stop work on Sunday. This is the basis for all Sunday laws.
Today, the church must recover the true Gospel Sabbath of Christ. His doctrine does not place anyone under the Law, nor does it make the 7th day a burden or difficulty.
Rather, the NCS is a day of freedom from the guilt of the law, a day where all can work and play, secure in their Gospel Freedom and Salvation.
The SDA’s today have no idea there is such a Sabbath doctrine, and neither does anyone else. This is why the Gospel will be such a surprise to Laodicea. They have been blind for so long, such light will be shocking and strange, even hurting their damaged eyes. Many will turn from the light, while others will finally see the Gospel and be saved.
The SDA’s were correct to teach that the Sabbath would be a dividing and reforming point in the last days. Too bad they misunderstood both the Gospel and the Sabbath, and now they must repent for both.
Cadge said: In the early church, "They, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart". Does anyone do that any more? Hardly, but there are some.
Tom said: There is no church today that can be compared with the unity and Gospel theology of the early church. This can only happen when the Gospel is fully understood. (They did not tithe; they shared. Those who tithe set up an OC system that is against the Gospel. While those who share are following the Gospel.)
The early church understood the active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath of Christ. They did not think Jesus was their Sabbath, or that Every Day was a spiritual, Sabbath rest. No. They followed the teachings of Christ about the NC Sabbath and thus the OC Sabbath rules and laws did not restrict them.
Cadge said: Paul tells us that some keep one day or another, and others every day alike. There is no longer any holy day of obligation.
Tom said: Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and the head theologian of the church. You need to first understand what he teaches before you try to establish any doctrine from Paul or anyone else. This is poor hermeneutics.
Jesus has far more to say about the Sabbath then Paul, even as Jesus has far more authority than Paul. Only those who follow Christ will be given Eternal Life. I suggest that you learn about the Lord’s Day from the only person that matters; Jesus Christ.
Holy Transition
While the SDA’s assume there is but one Sabbath in the Bible, this is not true. There are two different Sabbaths in the NT, each clashing against the other for supremacy.
Note the difference about the 7th day Sabbath. One is OC, the other NC. One features a holy day and the other a holy Christ and his church.
OC = Holy Day
NC = Holy Church
In the OC, the Sabbath Day was holy and must be kept free of work, as per the Law. But in the NC, Christ is holy and so to those who follow him. Thus the Church is holy, not the 7th day.
The 7th day, while still a memorial to creation, is not to be kept holy or free of work. Jesus trumps law and is above law. He is holy and so too those that follow him.
John 6:69 “We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”
1Pet. 1:16 because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.”
1Pet. 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1Pet. 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
What is holy doctrine in the OC is not in the NC. What was forced rest by the law under penalty of death, is now freedom from guilt unto Eternal Life, by faith.
The 7th day Gospel Sabbath will become present truth for the last church. It will shake, divide, and energize the last church, preparing it for the Tribulation and 2nd Coming to follow.
No one should be ashamed of Christ’s Gospel or his amazing NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.
Those who hang on to the OC Sabbath Law, or make up their own doctrines, (like the Every Day Sabbath), refusing to embrace Jesus’ Gospel teachings with joy and gladness, will be doomed in the Judgment Day.
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
It is time for all those who have embraced the OC Sabbath law as well as the Every Day Sabbath of NCT, to repent and only embrace the genuine Lord’s Day.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for the New Covenant Lord’s Day
Offline
Here is more discussion about NCT; It comes from another thread:
Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1180
Bob, you are not being responsive to the points raised. Denial of the issues is not going to work.
How can you possibly embrace any theology that claims Jesus did not teach a doctrine of the Sabbath in the Gospels? One which greatly offended the Jews, who called for his death. How can anyone deny what is so clear and obvious in all four Gospels?
While there may be many different interpretations about what Jesus means with his reformed Sabbath doctrine, there should be no debate about the fact that he taught a doctrine of the Sabbath. Such a fact is fatal to NCT.
NCT is based in fiction, error, and delusion. Let all run from such doctrinal fraud.
Bob 2 said: Let me just interject. I don't believe NC scholars have the Sabbath as their major item that must be dealt with. But because worshipping on Sunday is the "Elephant in the Room" It does have to be dealt with.
Tom replied: NCT targets the Sabbath, (both the Sunday Lord’s day and the 7th day versions), claiming that neither exists in the NC. This major conclusion is the point of NCT.
So they have many critics who protest the claims of NCT that the church does not have a weekly Sabbath.
Bob 2 posted: Chapter 2 A brief History of Divine Revelation - Fred Zaspel; In the 2nd Covenant, and the build up to it at the cross and Pentecost, who after Christ was gone was to be the one we could turn to for truth??
Tom said: This idea that Jesus did not fully explain the Gospel Sabbath is absurd and very dangerous. The SDA’s play this same game and declare that the IJ was later revealed to mankind as truth. But all scholars have rejected this nonsense, because there is no such thing as adding to the Gospel of Christ.
Stop looking to others for the definition of the NC Sabbath. Look first and last to Jesus, - in the Gospels. He has the truth of the matter. He is Lord of the Sabbath doctrine and the head theologian of the church. To run from his view of the Sabbath is to run from Christ.
Bob 2 posted: Zaspel in his 2nd Chapter; Jesus teaching to his disciples was not complete when he died, but through his replacement, the Holy Spirit, he had provided for its continuation and completion.
Tom said: Wrong! Jesus teaches a complete Gospel and a fully articulated, NC, 7th day Sabbath. He sent out his disciples to be his “witness” for him and for his Gospel teachings.
He did not send them out to invent new doctrine in his name. Jesus’ words are the basis for all Gospel doctrine, including and especially about the Sabbath.
John 6:67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?”
John 6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
The Holy Spirit directs our minds, not to new teaching by others downstream, but to the Gospel Words of Christ.
Mark 13:31 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Acts 1:8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”
What Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath in the Gospels, is what the church must embrace today. Period. NCT teaches error and blasphemy. They do not embrace or follow what Jesus teaches, even as they encourage others to turn away from Christ, pretending that new light about the Sabbath has been given to others after Christ went to heaven. Such views are cultic and very wrong.
Bob 2 said: Tom, you have been goading me about the Reformed Sabbath you say Jesus taught the disciples.
Tom said: I have been trying to educate you about the Gospel and point you to Christ, the source of all true doctrine. But you don’t want to learn. You think Paul is the Lord of the Sabbath, which is nothing more than an excuse to reject what Jesus teaches about the 7th day.
Regardless of your blindness, NCT has been exposed and destroyed for all to see on this site. At least for those who can admit that Jesus teaches an active and reformed, 7th day, Lord’s Day. Neither denial nor delusion can change this empirical fact.
Bob 2 said: With this text showing incomplete knowledge given to the disciples, I believe one must carefully read scripture after Christ's death.
Tom said: It is blasphemy to declare that Jesus did not fully teach the Gospel or the NC Sabbath in the Gospels. Those who look to others, outside the Gospels for their Gospel doctrine, are not following Christ.
Let all carefully and prayerfully read the Gospels and learn directly from Christ what he teaches about the NC Sabbath. What he teaches is truth for the church.
Do not run to Paul or anyone else. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath doctrine and thus all must learn it from him or not at all.
Bob 2 said: The Spirit was to be sent to "give them illumination, fuller revelation, and new revelations. This 'other helper' will bring the climactic revelation of the Son to its culmination.
Tom replied: Wrong. The Spirit guides all back to the words and teachings of Christ in the Gospels. It does not lead anyone into new or false doctrines that Christ did not teach, much less to NCT, which is promoting a wrong view of the Gospel and the Sabbath.
Bob 2 posted: Heb 2:2 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
Tom replied: This passage points all back to Christ and his Gospel teachings, which includes what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: Tom, you cannot argue the whole revelation of salvation was given by teaching of Jesus after reading these texts.
Tom said: The NT teaches that Christ is the complete and total revelation of God. He did not hold back on the Gospel, nor did he leave it to others to complete. Eternal Life is only for those who know Christ and embrace his Gospel teachings.
John 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Col. 1:19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
John 14:8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
John 14:9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Those who run from the teachings of Jesus, claiming they are incomplete or not fully defined or salvific, are not going to pass the Judgment. This goes double for the NCT crowd that is so foolish as to deny Christ’s Gospel Sabbath.
Bob charged: Your Reformed Sabbath is nothing but a ruse while knowledge is still being given to the Apostles by the Holy Spirit and direct revelation from Jesus Christ.
Tom said: Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath doctrine, not Tom Norris. You need to let your mind grasp this point.
Jesus is the first apostle of God. He is the one that defined, defended, and promoted a reformed 7th day Sabbath in all four Gospels. This took place all during his ministry on earth as the four Gospels prove.
Jesus’ Sabbath doctrine was not an afterthought passed down to Paul after the cross.
Christ claimed that his NC Sabbath doctrine came directly from God the Father. But the Jews would not believe. They thought his Sabbath doctrine was great error and blasphemy. They rejected it, just as you are doing today. Thus you are not on the side of Christ, nor do you follow him as you pretend.
Bob 2 said: Your assumption is that Jesus in His New Covenant must have a Sabbath Day associated with it.
Tom said: All that follow Christ, must carefully follow the Gospels. No need to make any assumptions or second guess the Words of Christ. What Jesus teaches, including what he teaches about the NC Sabbath, is doctrine for the church. Period.
It is Jesus who insists that the church is to have a weekly Sabbath.
Jesus is the one that took personal control over the 4th Commandment and revised it to fit his NC agenda. This is why the church has always had a weekly Lord’s Day, even if they got it wrong.
The church has always known that there is a weekly Lord’s Day, and so there still is today. But it should be on Saturday, and all should be encouraged, not to rest, but to work on this active, NC Lord’s day, as well as to meet in the name of Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: Tom, you have offered presuppositions to make your points. How about some scripture?
Tom replied; I have offered you the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels to prove the NC Sabbath. The fact you refuse to read these many passages, is your problem. Denial is pointless.
First off, you don’t believe Jesus when he says the Sabbath was made for all mankind. This is your problem.
Do you think you are wiser than Christ, and that you can ignore and revise his teachings at will? You are the “foolish man” that Jesus speaks about.
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”
NCT is built on sand. It will not hold up in a light breeze, much less in a storm.
Bob 2 said: I find no place that Jesus says the Sabbath is to continue in His Kingdom, in fact Hebrews 4 says.
Tom replied: How would you know? You seem to have never read the Gospels. You always quote the wrong passage so you can pretend NCT is true.
Is Jesus a temporary Lord? If so, who is going to replace him? Was his claim to be the “Lord of the Sabbath” only for a short time or was it forever? Is he not Eternal and forever? If so, so too is the Sabbath doctrine, which he has taken personal control.
While you claim to find “no place” where Jesus teaches a NC Sabbath, I don’t think you are looking very hard. In fact, you often run away from the Gospels, which is the source for this information. You must go to Jesus in the Gospels to learn about his NC Sabbath. This is the source. The fact you refuse, speaks volumes, even as it condemns you and NCT.
As for Heb 4, you are wrong. This passage teaches that there is a Sabbath doctrine for the Church; even as the same book goes on to encourage people to not neglect their church meetings.
Heb. 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
Heb. 10:24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
Heb. 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
But again, Hebrews is not the place to learn the Gospel Sabbath. Rather, all must go to the Gospels to learn directly from Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: The Rest that Jesus is speaking of is not a day, it is a state of rest, forgiveness, which Col 2:16, 17 is talking about.
Tom said: Jesus does not teach a resting Sabbath, so why do you say otherwise? I dare you to find Jesus teaching the resting, OC Sabbath. Go ahead, show us this phantom passage?
Pay attention: When Jesus speaks of the Sabbath, he is only talking about the weekly, 7th day Sabbath of the Jews. He is not, not, not, talking about rest or forgiveness, which is why you cannot find Jesus teaching such things about his NC Sabbath.
Again, stop quoting Paul until you first learn the Sabbath from Jesus.
Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and the head theologian of the Church, not Paul. Eternal Life is only for those who follow Christ.
1Cor. 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”
1Cor. 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
Bob2 said: Sabbath of the OC was a shadow of the saved state of the Christian.
Tom said: Wrong. The OC Sabbath was a training Sabbath for the Jews. So in that sense, it was a shadow of what was to come later in the NC. It was not the final Sabbath doctrine, which Christ would later teach the church.
The OC Sabbath Law does not represent the Gospel, which is why it was so harsh and punitive. It represents law. This is why Jesus had to revise the law based Sabbath into a NC doctrine that fits the Gospel. Thus, for those that follow Christ, they can work on the 7th day and not be guilty. This is what Jesus teaches.
Bob 2 said: Do I have a problem with you making up a Reformed Sabbath that you and only you "keep"? Nope!!!
Tom said: If I am promoting false doctrine, you should have a big problem. So once again, you are on the wrong side of the issue. Those who understand the Gospel have a duty to repudiate false doctrine.
NCT is horrible doctrine; I have a big problem with this dangerous doctrine that fails to solve the Sabbath debate and teaches people to ignore and repudiate Christ. You should also object for the same reasons.
Furthermore, the apostolic church understood and embraced the NC, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. So don’t think this doctrine is brand new, like NCT. The NC Sabbath of Christ dates from the 1st century. NCT dates from the 1970’s.
Bob 2 said: Accordingly, when we read of the NT Scriptures coming to us by the inspiration of the Spirit, we should not think of the Holy Spirit acting on his own. He came to further the teaching of Christ. This also is how se should think when we read of "the law of Christ" --it is not the red letters only, but the entire body of writings given by the spirit of Christ through the apostles. -- Fred Zaspel, page 39
Tom replied: Jesus teaches that the Holy Spirit directs our minds to the words of Christ. It does not direct anyone to invent new theology that is not taught by Christ. NCT is being very dishonest with this idea that others need to take over and complete the Gospel teachings of Christ. Blasphemy!
Bob 2 said: That defining of the "Law of Christ" is significant, don't you think??
Tom replied: The teachings of Christ are what all Christians must follow. This is known as the “law of Christ,” which includes his reformed, active, 7th day Sabbath. To say otherwise is blasphemy.
Bob 2 posted: In his comments on Ephesians 2:20 ("The foundation of the apostles and [NT] prophets") John Stott sums up our point well "In practical terms this means that the church is built on the New Testament Scripture. They are the church's foundation documents.
Tom said: Why not quote what Stott says about the Sabbath? This is the topic. What is the matter with you? Did you know that he rejects NCT? Why do you quote someone in support of NCT, when they do not support it?
Here is Stotts view on the 4th Commandment:
The Fourth Commandment;
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
The Jews’ sabbath and the Christians’ Sunday are a divine institution.
The fourth commandment, to set one day in seven apart, is not just a human arrangement or a social convenience.
It is God’s plan.
He made the sabbath for man, Jesus emphasized, and since he also made the man for whom he made the sabbath, he adapted it to man’s need.
Man’s body and mind need rest, and man’s spirit needs the opportunity for worship.
The sabbath is therefore a day of rest and a day of worship.
Not only are we to keep it as such ourselves, for our own good, but we are to do all we can for the common good to ensure that others do not have to work unnecessarily on this day.
So Sunday is a ‘holy’ day, set apart for God. It is the Lord’s day, not our day. It is therefore to be spent in his way, not in ours, for his worship and service and not just for our selfish pleasure.
http://www.healthy-elements.com/fourth_commandment.html
BASIC CHRISTIANITY, JOHN STOTT:
“The Jews’ Sabbath and the Christians’ Sunday are a divine institution. To set one day in seven apart is not just a human arrangement or a social convenience. It is God’s plan. He made the Sabbath for man, Jesus emphasized this in Mark 2:27-28.
•Mark 2:27-28 (NIV) Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
•Since he also made the man for whom he made the Sabbath, he adapted it to man’s need. Man’s body and mind need rest, and man’s spirit needs the opportunity for worship. The Sabbath is therefore a day of rest and a day of worship.
http://home.md.metrocast.net/~adamosbor … thcomm.htm
While I cannot agree with some of this Sunday based error, at least Stott is not denying that Jesus teaches a Sabbath for the church. He correctly rejects NCT. Stop quoting him to support your errors.
There is no escaping the Gospels. They contain the full and complete Gospel of Christ as well as the doctrine of the NC Sabbath, which is part of the Gospel and the law of Christ. Those who deny what Jesus teaches will not receive Eternal Life.
Bob 2 asked: How is all this important for the point at hand? It demonstrates the priority of the NT Scriptures. Only now, with our NT canon, do we have "all truth" (John 16:13) The era of Christ and his apostles marked a quantum leap forward in redemptive history. It brought about both a qualitative and a quantitative advance. - Fred Zaspel page 40
Tom replied: Stop the double-talk. What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, - is truth for the church. Period. NCT is utter nonsense and garbage. It is full of blasphemy, denying the words of Christ in the Gospels.
Bob 2 said: Tom, I'll be brief, NCT says the Gospel is the Gospel + nothing. The scholars you use say it is the Gospel + Sunday and argue that the Ten Commandments are still in force. GO FIGURE.
Tom replied: I use Jesus as the primary source to understand the NC Sabbath, and so too should you.
In addition, the Gospel contains many doctrines, including the NC Sabbath of Christ. Here is a thread that discusses the law and Gospel:
Law & Gospel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1122
Bob 2 said: At least NCT is consistent and scriptural.
Tom laughed: Ha! This is too comical. NCT is dishonest, blind, and incompetent. They deny what is so clear and obvious that they are not to be trusted to tell the truth about anything. Anyone who seriously expects to receive Eternal Life had better run from this doubletalk, which is as bad as what the SDA’s do to defend their many errors.
Bob 2 said: There is no scriptural basis for a mandated Sunday or a mandated Rest Day.
Tom replied: I agree about Sunday. It is a fraud.
However, the OC does teach a “mandated Rest Day.” In fact, at least one Israelite was put to death for violating the law of the 4th commandment. So once again, you are WRONG!
Furthermore, Jesus teaches a very different NC Sabbath, not one where rest is involved, but one where works are featured, along with the meeting of the congregation to worship and praise God.
Bob 2 said: The Rest God and Jesus mean is spoken of in Heb 4. 2 Cor 3 is pretty clear about the 'the letters... engraved letters on stone".
Tom said: Jesus speaks for himself. His words do not need to be re-interpreted or second-guessed by others. If Jesus teaches that the Sabbath doctrine is all about rest, then we must find him making such a point. But he makes no such statement about the Sabbath, because there is no such doctrine in the NC as a resting Sabbath.
Those who want to understand what Jesus teaches about the Gospel Sabbath, must go to Jesus, in the Gospels, to learn. Nowhere else! What Jesus teaches is true doctrine. Period!
Bob 2 said: I have not seen you or anyone else refute this. Maybe it is hidden somewhere in the long epistles that I am beginning to think of as "diarrhea of the mind". Sorry if that is too graphic but one has to wade through a lot of your unnecessary stuff to get to your point.
Tom said: The discussion of the Gospel should not be brought down to a crude level. Let’s try to keep this discussion civilized.
I fear NCT has blinded your mind, leading you away from the Gospel teachings of Christ. You need to stop quoting others about the Sabbath and only go to Christ in the Gospels. This is what those who follow Christ will do without being told.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Bob 2 said: Why not work on that, or copy the sentence with the conclusion to your vast writing. It might help the discussion go a little more quickly. I say this, because I believe you want people to think this is a vast area of study. It really is pretty simple.
Tom said: You have lost the debate my friend, but you seem too blind to know it. Pitiful. If you don’t understand this discussion after all these years, I doubt you will ever understand. But others may profit from your confusion, so that is the hope.
Bob 2 quoted Tom who said:” Moreover, we don’t have to assume that the NC Sabbath would be as strict as the OC Sabbath. On what basis do you reach such a conclusion?”
However, Bob failed to quote the balance of the thought, which explained proved the point:
Tom said: Nonsense. Who says God is against change? This is absurd. God invented the OC with the plan in mind to change it into the NC through Christ. So God is all about planned and controlled change, a point that the Jews denied.
Moreover, we don’t have to assume that the NC Sabbath would be as strict as the OC Sabbath. On what basis do you reach such a conclusion?
The NC is full of mercy and grace, so one should assume that the NC Sabbath would also reflect such concepts. It does.
The Gospel Sabbath represents freedom from the guilt of the law, - not legalism. In fact, the weekly NC Sabbath is so light and easy that it is impossible for any believer in Christ to break the Sabbath, as there are no longer any rules against work on the 7th day.
----------------------
The NC Sabbath, while stunning the Jews, is very logical and doctrinally sound. Christ is a theological genius, and thus his NC Sabbath reflects the Gospel in a brilliant way that is amazing to behold.
The 7th day, Gospel Sabbath of Christ is a paradigm shifting doctrine for the last church. Let all that vow to follow Christ for Eternal Life understand and embrace only what Christ teaches.
Bob 2 said: Just about every other of the 10 Commandments are expanded on, example Adultery is now Lust also, killing now becomes Hating also. Don't play so dumb. But the Sabbath he clarifies to a simple doctrine at least while he is alive.
Tom replied: NCT DENIES that Jesus teaches a NC Sabbath. While they admit he teaches about 9 of the 10 Commandments, they claim he forgot the 4th and thus it has been omitted from the “law of Christ” by design.
Such a view is madness. It is absurd and untrue. Jesus clearly and repeatedly teaches a NC Sabbath in all four Gospels. To deny this is to deny Christ, who clearly addresses all 10 commandments, including and especially the 4th.
NCT stands or falls on this point. It cannot exist if Jesus teaches any doctrine about the 4th commandment.
He does.
Thus NCT is flat out wrong. It is fiction and false doctrine for the naïve and foolish.
Bob 2 said: He never declares the Sabbath the greatest Commandment or brings it up even in the Sermon on the Mount or when he visits the Disciples after His death before His Ascension or at His Ascension.
Tom said: Wow! You are not paying attention? Which of the 10 commandments did Jesus claim to be special? Which one did he claim to own, defend, and protect? All but the Sabbath?
Did Jesus declare himself to be the Lord of Murder or Adultery? No and no.
So which one of the 10 commandments does Jesus claim to be in charge as its protector and Lord?
Answer: The 4th commandment! But yet, NCT is based on the premise that the “law of Christ” includes only 9 of the 10 Commandments, minus the 4th!
How can this be? Did Jesus teach a weekly doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath in the Gospels? Of course he did. This fact destroys NCT and shows it to be an impossible theory of false doctrine. Its’ very premise is totally false, and so too its absurd conclusion.
Jesus, as the creator of the world, made the first Sabbath. No wonder it is so special to him. He wanted all mankind to embrace his Gospel Sabbath, not just the Jews.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
By declaring himself to be the Lord of the weekly 7th day Sabbath, Jesus shows how special this NC doctrine is to God, himself, and the church.
The fact Jesus does not promote the Sabbath in this or that passage is proof of nothing. You must go to the many passages, in all four Gospels, where he teaches and debates the Sabbath to learn the doctrine.
Don’t try to learn about the Sabbath in the wrong place. That is just silly. Or are you doing this on purpose? Go to the Gospels and find out what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. That is truth for the church.
Bob 2 said: He never explains, nor you, why the 4th Commandment is the first Appointed Festival of Leviticus 23?
Tom said: Say what? I don’t understand what you are saying or why. Jesus will explain his view of the 7th day Sabbath to everyone that seeks to follow him. Repent. And go to the Gospels and learn the Reformed Sabbath of Christ from Christ.
The Gospels contain the NC Sabbath of Christ for the church. This doctrine of the Lord’s Day has been hiding in plain site; it has only now come into view from within the SDA Community.
Bob 2 said: Also, look at His opportunity to tell the Samaritan woman at the well, that He knows WHERE everyone, Jew and Gentile, will worship, but not on what day, if it is as significant as you say.
Tom said: You don’t get to change the Gospel Story, much less criticize Christ for what he did or did not say to any person. The sheep do not correct the Shepherd; much less refute where he leads or what he teaches. Many do just this, proving they are lost and confused, following a false Christ of their own imagination.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
I am amazed at the many diversions you create, all in order to avoid dealing directly with the Sabbath teachings of Christ in the Gospels. But then again, you have to do this because NCT is BASED on the myth that Jesus teaches 90% of the 10 Commandments, minus the 4th.
The moment you admit Jesus teaches a doctrine about the Sabbath in the Gospels, NCT self-destructs.
So you keep pretending this NCT myth is true, even though anyone can read the Gospels and discover otherwise.
Jesus does address the 4th commandment in specific theological detail, over and over in the Gospels. Such a fact, regardless what he teaches about the Sabbath, is fatal for NCT.
The very fact Jesus teaches about the Sabbath exposes the premise and the conclusion of NCT as utter nonsense and anti-Christ error.
Jesus would be insulted and outraged with NCT. So too should anyone that has ever read the Gospels. In the PAJ, he demands that all repent of NCT, as well as the many other false views of the Gospel and the Sabbath. Repent and follow the Gospel!
Bob 2 said: Most of NCT opponents realize that it isn't just about the Sabbath, it is about the restructuring of Covenant Theology to the New Covenant Theology. That job is apt to have some parishioners get up and walk out with their substantial donations.
Tom replied: First off, if you read the Preface, the authors admit why they wrote this book; it was in response to their critics who charged them with antinomianism for their disregard of the Sabbath. (The fact you don’t know this shows you are not paying attention.)
NCT is all about the Sabbath, and so too this latest book, which is nothing but religious propaganda; a defense for false doctrine. This is why the critics started screaming, because NCT refutes the (Sunday) Sabbath.
Stop pretending. NCT represents a strange and false view of the Sabbath, and most everyone knows this fact by now.
Second, the Book index shows that the Sabbath is mentioned more then any other doctrine or topic.
Third, at the conclusion of the book, there are two chapters about the Sabbath; #13, The Sabbath, A Test Case and #14, The Sabbath: Some Critical Texts in Paul.
Too bad they could not write a chapter called; "The Sabbath: What Jesus Teaches in the Gospels."
Fourth, an article about John Bunyan and the Sabbath is also in the appendix.
And I don’t have the book. But I could see all this from the Amazon website. No doubt the book is full of legions of references about the Sabbath in the other chapters.
http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/1928965113
Bob 2 said: Can you imagine the Sunday morning that one of the preachers say he now is going to teach New Covenant Theology and gets to the place where he says the 10 Commandment will no longer be the center of our behaviorial standards, but Christ's Law that you have to study to have it revealed to you, Christ's life, the Apostles and what was revealed to them, ....
Tom said: No one would care except the SDA’s. Few groups are as law based as the SDA’s. They value the 10 Commandments above the teachings of Christ, which is why they, like the Jews, rejected his working, NC Sabbath.
So yes, the SDA’s would be upset to hear genuine NC theology, but few others would object.
Adventist Reform advocates the development of NC Adventism, which is a Gospel based extension of OC Adventism, complete with an improved view of eschatology and the correct doctrine of the 7th day, Lord’s Day.
First off, NCT is correct to teach that there is no such doctrine as a Sunday Lord’s Day in the NT. So too are the SDA’s who made this same point long before NCT was invented. (No doubt NCT picked up this knowledge from the SDA’s.)
Secondly, the teachings of Christ should be at the center of the church anyway. Why should that be shocking to any Christian, (except the SDA’s)?
However, Jesus teaches a 7th day Sabbath that is not based on the law, and in fact gives an exemption from sin for violating the 4th commandment.
So why is Jesus’ Reformed Sabbath being ignored by so many?
Why do so many Christians refuse to comprehend and follow what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath?
Bob 2 said: I can see an empty church by the time he drops the "bomb" of New Covenant Theology!
Tom said: You make no sense. NCT has nothing to offer but sand. It is not a credible system of theology. It has no eschatology or pedigree. It is worthless, arrogant double-talk that leads people away from the genuine Christ of the Gospels.
Bob 2 said: Again this is not just a Sabbath issue, as you tend to make it. That shows you do not have a handle on it, just that it goes against your Reformed Sabbath, and as much as you have written, I see your face paling as you realize the writing you will have to do to explain yourself.
Tom said: I already proved that the book you are promoting was written to defend NCT from the critics who charged antinomianism. The authors have admitted such in their Preface. Thus this is a “Sabbath issue.” They authors are trying to prove that their strange view of the Sabbath is correct. THIS is what is going on. Don’t be so dull.
I don’t like NCT because it attacks the Sabbath of Christ. So yes, it goes against the Reformed Sabbath of Jesus that is featured and promoted in all four Gospels. That is why it is wrong and why it must be repudiated.
Bob 2 said: The most startling thing you do is quote Sunday keepers saying there is no change with the NC. Very telling.
Tom said: The Sunday keepers are part of this discussion. They have some strong views about the Sabbath, some of which are correct. Just as some points made by the NCT crowd is also correct, and so too the SDA’s.
Those who embrace Sunday as the Lord’s Day, which is the vast majority, do so because they acknowledge there is a change in the Covenants. Sunday was a big change from the 7th day, and the early church assumed such a change in the day was part of the change in Covenants.
What they should have done was better understand the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ and embrace this NC, active, doctrine as the Lord’s Day. But they did not. So this correction must still take place.
Bob said: Tom, the book New Covenant Theology has a Table of Contents and shows it is bigger than just the Sabbath and Law:
Tom said: Why not stop playing games and bring us the two chapters about the Sabbath.
We don’t need to go through an indoctrination process before we can understand what is being said about the Sabbath. Just tell us straight out what they conclude about the Sabbath.
Is there a weekly Sabbath for the church in the NC? And if so, how is it defined?
No doubt the answer will be found in:
Chapter 13, The Sabbath, A Test Case,
Chapter 14, The Sabbath: Some Critical Texts in Paul.
Why not go to those chapters and see if you can tell us in plain English:
Is there a weekly Sabbath for the church in the NC? And if so, how is it defined?
Bob 2 said: So Tom there is a lot more to the book than the Sabbath and I don't plan to be goaded to get to your favorite subject of a non-biblical Reformed Sabbath. It ain't in the rest of the book or in the Bible.
Tom replied: First, NCT is all about the Sabbath, and so too the book you are reviewing on this thread. And so too this discussion, which you started.
Second, the Reformed Sabbath of Christ can be easily found in all four Gospels. Such a fact cannot be denied.
Bob 2 said: If inspiration stops with Christ's Ascension, you are missing out on a lot the Bible has to offer. I studied in our schools and I think Bible is taught up through John, and jumps to Revelation. Paul is treated as you are treating him. IMO.
Tom replied: The Gospel was fully preached by Jesus Christ and made part of the NT record. Part of Jesus' Gospel preaching was his reformed, 7th day Sabbath. What he teaches about this doctrine is what the church, including Paul, must follow.
If anyone wants to know what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, they must first go to the Gospels and learn from Christ. He has much to teach about the Sabbath, far, far more the Paul ever wrote.
Bob quoted Tom, who said:
“Here is where the NCT people become dishonest with the Word. They claim Jesus has the most authority, but yet, they overlook what he teaches about the Sabbath so that they can run to Paul to hear what they want. This is no way to understand what Jesus teaches.”
Bob replied:
The point being made is from Jesus himself as He ends His ministry on this earth. Note this text:
John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Tom this gets to your point, all that needs to be said on a given subject, including the Sabbath, had not been said by Him when he Ascended.
Tom said: Wrong. The passage does not teach that Jesus is going to give Paul a different view of the Sabbath from what he taught during his ministry.
This passage does zero to discount or nullify what Jesus teaches in the four Gospels about the Sabbath. Why would you think so?
We have the genuine words of Christ about the Sabbath. Over and over he teaches a unique view of the 7th day Sabbath for all to see. How can you join a group that denies Jesus teaches a doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath? Have you lost your mind? Can’t you read? Jesus’ favorite doctrine was the NC Sabbath!
Bob 2 said: The Holy Spirit would speak through men Jesus had appointed. To say Paul's writings are not inspired will get you in a lot of trouble, since most of the NT is Paul speaking.
Tom said: I never said Paul was not “inspired.” I said Paul is not the author of, or the Lord of, the Sabbath. That is the role of Christ, the self-proclaimed Lord of the Gospel Sabbath, which is for all mankind. (Jesus made the Sabbath when he made the world.)
Paul does not conflict with Jesus view of the Sabbath. If you think so, then you don’t understand what Jesus or Paul teach about the Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: This maybe is a point that is very telling. We, you and I, will always be at odds if we don't agree on the Holy Spirit speaking truth through appointed men after Christ's ascension.
Tom said: The only telling point is that NCT REFUSES to admit that Jesus teaches a clear and articulated doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath in all four Gospels.
NCT denies Christ. They ignore Christ and pretend he has nothing to say about the 4th commandment, so they can run to Paul and try to remove the Sabbath doctrine from the church.
Such behavior is anti-Christ, anti-Gospel, and anti- Word. It is an outrageous and dishonest theory, unfit for those who follow Christ. I don’t know how any of this crowd can sleep at night. It is as bad as the awful SDA doctrine of the Investigative Judgment that the SDA’s pretend is true, when everyone knows better.
Bob 2 said: I told you that the book was more than just about the Sabbath. It is also about how we view inspiration and the Holy Spirit's work.
Tom said: Your were wrong. The authors have already admitted that this is an apologetic to defend their view of the Sabbath. You should not speak so much for others, because you are having a hard time grasping what people think.
The only reason the authors speak about the Holy Spirit is so they can claim some justification for their false view of the Sabbath from Paul. It is a ruse. The HS points us back to the words of Christ, who has already placed on the record the correct doctrine of the NC Sabbath.
The HS points us to the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ. Period.
Bob 2 said: Tom you keep pushing on the Sabbath, assuming that that is the critical point to this book and yet it has caught you in a fallacy about the Holy Spirit. Are Jesus words the only inspired words we are to accept as doctrine? Impossible!!!!!
Tom said: So you don’t like the words of Jesus? You want to find others who have the “inspiration” you seek? Those who speak like this are not Christian.
Pay close attention: Only the Words of Jesus can give you Eternal Life. No one else. If you continue to deny what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, and continue to repudiate his Gospel views, you are a lost man. NCT will not save you, and neither will Paul.
It will be only you and Jesus in the Judgment day. You will claim you should have Eternal Life. But Jesus will respond:
Why did you choose darkness and not Gospel light?
Why did you reject my Sabbath “sayings” and “not keep them”?
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Did you not read in the Gospels how God the Father told me teach this new view of the 7th day Sabbath?
Eternal Life is only for those who believe and follow Christ. Not for those who deny and repudiate what he teaches.
John 12:46 “I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
John 12:47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
John 12:49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
John 12:50 “I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”
Bob said: I haven't seen you present "the correct solution" other than to say work is OK on the Sabbath.
Tom said: If you want to see Gospel light, you must be able to admit you are wrong and repent. Otherwise, you will never be able to judge the Gospel correctly. Listen to the words of Christ; they were spoken in the context of his Reformed Sabbath, which the Jews would not accept.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Adventist Reform stands for the completion of Sabbath Reform. The active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ is the genuine Lord’s Day for the church. Those that want to follow the genuine Christ will understand and embrace truth.
Bob 2 asked: That's enlightening. Amongst your good works do you include, is it OK to shop for groceries for a sick old lady, and fill your car with gas on your way to her house.
Tom replied: Yes, it is OK to shop or even work at the store on the 7th day.
It is also OK to fill gas or work at the Gas Station on the Lord’s day. It is also OK to light fires and cook, or travel, or do all the things that the Jewish Sabbath prohibited.
In other words, the Sabbath of Christ has NO rules against work or play, or cooking, or travel, moving furniture, healing harvesting, etc, etc. NONE!
Bob 2 asked: What other rules are contained in "the correct solution"?
Tom said: It is the lack of rules that is stunning about the NC Sabbath. The OC Sabbath doctrine is full of rules and regulations enforced by the death penalty. The NC Sabbath is the opposite. No rules against work, everyone is allowed to work without guilt from the 4th commandment.
The OC Sabbath had no freedom from the law, except for the Levites. However, the NC gives Freedom to all, without distinction, because all are Priests of God. The Sabbath is Freedom Day, a day where the law is no longer in charge because grace prevails for those who follow Christ.
Bob asked: If it is OK to buy the groceries, is it OK for me to run my Grocery store on Saturday???
Tom said: Absolutely!
Bob 2 asked: Can I drive a gas truck to refill the gas station you get your tank of gas from???
Tom replied: Yes indeed!
Moreover, if you were a Roman Soldier who has accepted Christ, you are allowed to carry out your orders and work, march, fight, clean your weapons, dig a ditch, etc on the Sabbath. There is no longer any sin or guilt associated with working on the 7th day Gospel Sabbath. THIS is what Christ teaches and so too Peter and Paul.
This is why Roman soldiers became the first Gentile converts. There were no Sabbath issues for them or anyone in the NC. Work on the 7th day was no longer sinful for those who followed Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: Jesus simplified this by fulfilling the Sabbath rest at the cross. He can give you rest by FORGIVING you. What a simple answer!!!
Tom said: Jesus teaches a very clear doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath for the church. And it has nothing to do with “fulfilling the Sabbath rest at the cross.” How is torture associated with “rest”? This makes no sense.
There is no such doctrine or concept as a “fulfilled Sabbath by Christ.” This is just doubletalk and amateur nonsense. Jesus does not teach a resting Sabbath. Which point is fatal point for NCT.
Nor does Jesus teachings about forgiveness in any way to nullify or repudiate what he teaches about the NC Sabbath. Why would you think such a thing?
Answer: Wishful thinking. NCT requires such myths to exist. Remove the myths and NCT cannot stand.
Bob 2 said: I have asked before who else believes as you do on the Reformed Sabbath.
Tom said: Jesus. Jesus is the primary source of the Reformed, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. He believes it, and he taught his disciples to also believe and follow him in this new view of the 7th day Sabbath. They wrote it down in the Gospels, and thus we have Jesus’ Sabbath doctrine as part of the Gospel Record.
Who else needs to believe what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath in order for you to believe? Paul certainly supports his view, and so too Peter. In fact, most Gentiles would not have joined the church if they had to embrace the OC, non-working Sabbath of the Jews. No Roman soldier would be able to be a Christian without first renouncing his State position as a soldier.
The fact that you don’t understand the early history of the church complicates matters for you. The apostolic church followed Jesus’ 7th day, active Sabbath. This is why the Gentiles could so easily join.
Many scholars know these facts, and Dr. Ford knows this history best of all. I suggest that you read his material about the 7th day Sabbath of Christ. He rejects NCT and so too should everyone.
Bob 2 said: So, Tom, you were the only human to get it right???? Just you and Jesus?? You mock what He said with that line. Who else has published what you are saying is truth. What congregation has congregates that can state it exactly as you have?
Tom replied: You misunderstand. The apostolic church understood and embraced the reformed, 7th day Lord’s Day. They did not embrace Sunday or what the SDA’s teach.
Don’t shoot the messenger. You act like I invented the NC Reformed Sabbath. I did not, and neither did Dr. Ford. This doctrine dates from the 1st century, Jesus is the its author and champion.
The apostolic church embraced the correct, active, and reformed Lord’s day. Which is why we see Paul preaching to the town on the Sabbath, and yet the people were free to go back to work, or cook, or do whatever, without any condemnation or OC instruction from Paul.
In other words, Paul understood how the Lord’s Day is to be observed. He was not promoting the OC Sabbath, but the NC Sabbath of Christ.
Bob 2 said: These two paragraphs at the end of Chapter 2 of New Covenant Theology are important:
Bob quoted: This is a most significant promise so far as we are concerned today. A very important line of questions asked at some time by most Christians is,"How can we know the NT is the word of God? How can we be sure? How can we know it is truth? How can we know it is accurate? Must we rely on an inner witness? Must we rely on the 'self attesting' nature of it?"
No, as helpful as these are. We have something much better. We have Christ's own word on it. He chose and commissioned these men for exactly this purpose. He invested them with his own authority and sent them His Spirit to teach and guide them infallibly. The apostles' witness to Christ and His and His teaching and work will not be there own invention nor mere reliance on their own memory. No. It is the very word of the Son himself. Such is our Lord's promise.
Accordingly, when we read of the NT Scriptures coming to us by the inspiration of the Spirit, we should not think of the Holy Spirit acting on his own. He came to further the teaching of Christ. This also is how we should think when we read of "the law of Christ"---it is not the red letters only, but the entire body of writings given by the Spirit of Christ through the apostles.
Tom said: I agree with the above. Moreover, the Law of Christ INCLUDES Jesus Reformed Sabbath teachings. Those who claim otherwise, like NCT, are promoting error.
Bob 2 said: Tom, this text is one that should be read seriously if you wish to demote Paul and the apostles, from the position given them by Jesus Himself with the Holy Spirit:
1 Thessalonians 2:13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe.
Tom replied: When the passage says they “received” the word of God, it means the Gospel of Christ, which includes his NC, 7th day Sabbath.
This passage in no way nullifies, mutes, or removes, what Christ teaches about the Sabbath. The very idea that you want to run away from Christ and from what he teaches about the Sabbath is heresy. Why run from Christ? Why deny what he teaches about the 7th day?
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
NCT leads people away from Christ and away from his amazing doctrine of the 7th day, Lord’s Day. Let all beware of following a false and worthless Gospel.
Matt. 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Matt. 24:11 “Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
Matt. 24:24 “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Let all repudiate NCT as anti-Christ doctrine. It cannot be defended because it is based on myth and clear error.
Jesus has much to say about the 7th day Sabbath and it is time for the church to pay close attention. Their Eternal Life depends on it.
Tom Norris for the genuine, 7th day Lord’s Day
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Tom, your claims of non-responsiveness are because you're mind is not open to a discussion. You said:
Bob, you are not being responsive to the points raised. Denial of the issues is not going to work.
How can you possibly embrace any theology that claims Jesus did not teach a doctrine of the Sabbath in the Gospels? One which greatly offended the Jews, who called for his death. How can anyone deny what is so clear and obvious in all four Gospels?
Note the early churches remarks to those representatives of the Pharisee party:
Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
Jesus never command a New Covenant Sabbath or said for it to be destroyed. He kept it perfectly and as the Lord of the Sabbath, the one who created the Law, He saw it being polluted and said so. For you to see the Sabbath as Jesus spoke of to be an elaboration of the Sabbath Law, as I said before, if anything he lessened the Pharisee's legalistic burden in the Sabbath and other area like the purchasing of sacrifices in the Temple court. You can not be blind to this. But you are trying to demote Jesus commissioned spokesmen. This is a sacrilege or even heresy what you are saying.
Jesus spoke mainly to Pharisees out of control with rules not even they could keep. The barrier removed by Jesus spoken of here is circumcision and the Sabbath. The Gentiles did neither practice, in fact without proper cleansing they could not keep the Sabbath "legally" as the Jews saw it:
Eph 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace [fulfilling the Sabbath in His flesh], who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Is this hard to read for you Tom???
Last edited by bob_2 (07-03-13 9:37 pm)
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Tom you frustrate others when you ignor scripture put in front of you. You said:
Bob 2 posted: Zaspel in his 2nd Chapter; Jesus teaching to his disciples was not complete when he died, but through his replacement, the Holy Spirit, he had provided for its continuation and completion.
Tom said: Wrong! Jesus teaches a complete Gospel and a fully articulated, NC, 7th day Sabbath. He sent out his disciples to be his “witness” for him and for his Gospel teachings.
I gave scripture for what I posted and you make it look as if I am totally in left field. Here read it again:
John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Tom, you diminish the work of the Holy Spirit after Jesus Ascended to Heaven. His words are so clear of how He planned to finish building His Kingdom, yet you want Jesus to be the last one to speak on your pet subject when Christ did not say that no more truth was out their, He said what is coming is reliable because the Holy Spirit will only say what comes directly from Jesus. You also ignore Paul's commission on the way to Damascus spoken to Paul directly from Jesus. This is not brain surgery Tom. You do not see these words for yourself, your pet topic has taken you over this badly????
Last edited by bob_2 (07-03-13 10:03 pm)
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Bob 2 posted: Zaspel in his 2nd Chapter; Jesus teaching to his disciples was not complete when he died, but through his replacement, the Holy Spirit, he had provided for its continuation and completion.
Tom said: Wrong! Jesus teaches a complete Gospel and a fully articulated, NC, 7th day Sabbath. He sent out his disciples to be his “witness” for him and for his Gospel teachings.
Don here...
It seems unChristian to suggest that Jesus did not teach the complete Gospel. Yet, Jesus Himself was clear that more truth was to come. Adventists subscribe to the Biblical Canon. We agree with the rest of the Christian churches that the 27 books of the New Testament are authoritative and each of equal importance. Certainly Paul, and others, said some things not found in the four gospels. Did Paul add to Jesus' message? Historically, Yes. Spiritually, No. Paul gave us messages from Jesus.
New Covenant Theology (NCT) reminds us that Paul identified truths important for the Christian.
Last edited by don (07-03-13 10:45 pm)
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When Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would bring more truth, I don't think He envisioned this happening only in the immediate apostolic era. I believe that the Holy Spirit has been quite busy throughout the centuries up until and including today.
The difference is that the Holy Spirit's work in the apostolic era got captured and canonized whereas His work in later times did not get so favoured.
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Don, once you get past Jesus, Peter and the other writing Apostles and Prophets, you lose the assurance of it being Jesus words, however, it does not keep various believers from taking different interpretations even of Peter and those Apostles that knew Christ directly. Take it once , twice ......10 times removed, one has to have a close relationship with the Holy Spirit and Jesus to get say, Ellen White? right, eh???
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Don, Jesus definitely spoke the Gospel, but the NC rules were not completely spoke, or Acts 15, the Jerusalem meeting would not have been necessary. During that meeting they did not say the Gentiles would be required to keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath, if one was part of the New Covenant, was not stated fully by Jesus. He reacted to the Pharisees pollution of the Sabbath does and don't but Jesus never commanded a NC Sabbath. No where in the NT do you have Jesus commanding a Sabbath except not doing away with it under the OC, that he lived under. Because he called himself Lord of the Sabbath, or the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath, this last utterance certainly in context was not talking to the Gentiles, but to the Jewish "man".
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Bob 2 said: Tom, your claims of non-responsiveness are because you're mind is not open to a discussion.
Tom said: Bob, you are not being responsive to the points raised. Denial of the issues is not going to work. How can you possibly embrace any theology that claims Jesus did not teach a doctrine of the Sabbath in the Gospels? One, which greatly offended the Jews, who called for his death.
How can anyone deny what is so clear and obvious in all four Gospels?
Bob 2 responded: Note the early churches remarks to those representatives of the Pharisee party:
Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
Tom said: This passage does not nullify or remove what Jesus teaches about his Reformed, Active, 7th day Sabbath. Why would you think that? You need to go back to the Gospels and learn from Christ. You are very confused.
In fact, The NC Sabbath of Christ is not a “yoke” of legalism; it is the OPPOSITE. Which is why the Jews became so angry with Christ. The OC Sabbath was a very difficult and punitive Jewish doctrine. Some were even killed by Moses for picking up firewood on the 7th day. So this passage does not attack or remove Jesus’ NC view of the Sabbath, but in fact supports it.
Bob 2 said: Jesus never commands a New Covenant Sabbath or said for it to be destroyed.
Tom said: It is futile to deny that Jesus teaches a reformed, 7th day Sabbath for the church. Every Gospel contains Jesus NC Sabbath doctrine, complete with long running debates with the religious leaders about his NC Sabbath views.
As a result, Jesus “destroyed” the OC Sabbath of Moses. Which is why the Jewish leaders became outraged. They had no idea there could ever be a new doctrine of the Sabbath, much less one where work was permitted and encouraged. No wonder they were “amazed” and stunned at Christ’s NC Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: He kept it perfectly and as the Lord of the Sabbath, the one who created the Law, He saw it being polluted and said so.
Tom said: Wrong. The NT makes it clear that Jesus was a great Sabbath breaker. This is why he was sent to the cross.
Moreover, it is true. Jesus did not obey the OC Sabbath or treat the 7th day holy by not working. He broke the OC Sabbath at every opportunity. Why? So he could promote the Gospel Sabbath, which the Jews hated.
Why deny the Gospel Story?
Answer: to defend the false doctrine of NCT. Sad.
Bob 2 said: For you to see the Sabbath as Jesus spoke of to be an elaboration of the Sabbath Law, as I said before, if anything he lessened the Pharisee's legalistic burden in the Sabbath and other area like the purchasing of sacrifices in the Temple court. You cannot be blind to this. But you are trying to demote Jesus commissioned spokesmen. This is a sacrilege or even heresy what you are saying.
Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. Who cares what you have said before? What you keep saying is utter nonsense and myth. Your ability to follow the Gospel Story is suspect, just like all those who dig in their heels to protect false doctrine.
Bob 2 said: Jesus spoke mainly to Pharisees out of control with rules not even they could keep.
Tom said: Jesus’ Gospel teachings were not just for the Pharisees. His Gospel words and sayings are for all those who seek Eternal Life. Deny what Christ teaches and you are lost, just like most of the Pharisees.
Bob 2 said: The barrier removed by Jesus spoken of here is circumcision and the Sabbath. The Gentiles did neither practice, in fact without proper cleansing they could not keep the Sabbath "legally" as the Jews saw it:
Tom said: So Jesus removed the Sabbath? Now we are getting somewhere! Here is what NCT is all about; they want to remove the doctrine of the Sabbath from the church. Let all behold what is really taking place. NCT claims Jesus has REMOVED THE SABBATH.
Sorry Bob, but you are wasting your time. While ritual, OC circumcision was removed from the church, the 7th day Sabbath, which Christ revised, reformed, and defended, was never removed. It was called the Lord’s Day, and it no longer restricted work. To deny what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath is to deny Christ.
Bob said: Is this hard to read for you Tom??? (Eph 2:11).
Tom said: You do not understand the Gospel or the NT. Sorry.
Bob 2 said: Tom you frustrate others when you ignore scripture put in front of you.
Tom said: Your proof texting is nothing but confusion and diversion. Just because you ignore the many, many, passages where Jesus teaches his NC Sabbath, - that does not mean these passages have been removed from the NT. No. They are still there. Ignore them at your own risk and confusion.
Bob 2 posted: Zaspel in his 2nd Chapter; Jesus teaching to his disciples was not complete when he died, but through his replacement, the Holy Spirit, he had provided for its continuation and completion.
Tom said: Wrong! Jesus teaches a complete Gospel and a fully articulated, 7th day Sabbath. This is a fundamental point for all Protestants.
Jesus sent out his disciples to be his “witness” for him and for his Gospel teachings, which included his NC Sabbath doctrine, which the Jews hated.
Bob 2 said: I gave scripture for what I posted and you make it look as if I am totally in left field. Here read it again:
Tom said: You are way out in left field. In fact, you are so far out, that you are sitting in the upper deck of the bleachers. You have lost this debate by a mile. NCT is a joke. The fact you don’t understand this as yet is not funny. It is sad.
Bob 2 quotes John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Bob 2 then said: Tom, you diminish the work of the Holy Spirit after Jesus Ascended to Heaven. His words are so clear of how He planned to finish building His Kingdom, yet you want Jesus to be the last one to speak on your pet subject when Christ did not say that no more truth was out their, He said what is coming is reliable because the Holy Spirit will only say what comes directly from Jesus.
Tom said: Wrong. Jesus taught a NC Sabbath for the church in all four Gospels. This was his “pet doctrine,” which surprised and divided the Jews.
Consequently, what Jesus teaches is what the Holy Spirit will “guide” all people to understand. The HS cannot promote new doctrine that Jesus never taught, much less go against what he so clearly teaches in the Gospels. You need to understand this point.
Those who are led to “Glorify Christ,” must embrace Jesus view of everything, including his Reformed Sabbath. What Jesus teaches in the Gospels about the Reformed Sabbath is TRUTH. Period. Those who say otherwise, like NCT, are anti-Christ and very wrong.
Let me explain something: The resurrection will only work if we have the genuine Spirit of Christ in our minds by faith. The Spirit of Christ, if genuine, MUST include what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. To embrace any other view is to embrace another Spirit, a false one. There is no resurrection for those who get it wrong.
Rom. 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Rom. 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Eternal Life is for those who have faith in Jesus words, which include what he teaches about the 7th day. It is not for those who don’t believe what he teaches.
Paul teaches that we must have the same mind “according” to Christ. Such a mind-set must include what Jesus teaches about his reformed Sabbath. How can it not?
Rom. 15:5 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,
1Cor. 2:16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.
Bob 2 said: You also ignore Paul's commission on the way to Damascus spoken to Paul directly from Jesus. This is not brain surgery Tom. You do not see these words for yourself; your pet topic has taken you over this badly????
Tom said: Wrong. Jesus’ Sabbath doctrine has nothing to do with Paul or his commission. What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, before Paul was Christian, is what Paul and all others must embrace. Jesus trumps anything that Paul teaches, even as he has much more authority and knowledge, even to infinity. (Paul never teaches a contrary Sabbath from Christ).
1Cor. 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cor. 3:23 and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.
Paul does not support NCT, the Sunday Sabbath or what the confused SDA’s teach about the 7th day. Neither does Christ. Sorry.
Those who belong to the genuine Christ of the NT will happily embrace what he teaches about the 7th day Gospel Sabbath. Those that don’t, will fight against Christ, proving they are anti-Christ.
Bob 2 posted: Zaspel in his 2nd Chapter; Jesus teaching to his disciples was not complete when he died, but through his replacement, the Holy Spirit, he had provided for its continuation and completion.
Tom said: Wrong! Jesus teaches a complete Gospel and a fully articulated, NC, 7th day Sabbath. He sent out his disciples to be his “witness” for him and for his Gospel teachings. They were not to invent new doctrine, much less fight against what Jesus teaches.
Even Paul says we must imitate Christ, even as he does the same thing. All must follow Jesus, which includes what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. Paul added nothing to Christ’s Gospel, because nothing was left out.
1Cor. 11:1 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.
Christ is the head of the church, not Paul. All must understand what Jesus teaches and follow it.
1Cor. 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
Paul is not the head of anyone. Jesus is! Consequently, what Jesus teaches, is what must be followed and embraced, including what he teaches about the Sabbath.
2Cor. 4:5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake.
To preach Christ is to also preach about his view of the Sabbath.
Col. 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
Such points should not even have to be raised. But we live in a time when those who claim to follow Christ dismiss the most plain and clear teachings with ease. Let all beware false teachers who lead people away from Christ.
Don said: It seems un-Christian to suggest that Jesus did not teach the complete Gospel. Yet, Jesus Himself was clear that more truth was to come.
Tom said: The SDA’s have destroyed themselves because of this false idea that new doctrine will come into the church through Ellen White. This is why they think they can defend the IJ, even though Jesus never taught such a doctrine. Sad.
The SDA claim that new light has been given about the IJ is false. Their “new light” is against the OT and the NT. It repudiates what Jesus teaches. Thus it is not light at all, but great darkness.
Luke 11:34 “The eye is the lamp of your body; when your eye is clear, your whole body also is full of light; but when it is bad, your body also is full of darkness.
Luke 11:35 “Then watch out that the light in you is not darkness.
Don, IT IS UNCHRISTIAN to claim that new Gospel doctrines will be invented by the SDA’s or anyone. Such a view is cultic heresy. While the church will discover new truth, it is old truth that was in the NT all along, like the NC, active, Sabbath of Christ. His Sabbath words cannot be dismissed or rejected by any that claim to follow him.
Col. 3:16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
The “word of Christ” includes his many teachings about the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath, which he claims is for all mankind. What Jesus teaches in the Gospels can never be changed. His controversial, 1st century views about the 7th day Sabbath still stand as rock solid truth, regardless how many refuse to follow or believe his words today.
Heb. 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Don said: Adventists subscribe to the Biblical Canon.
Tom said: Wrong. The SDA’s have added Ellen White to the Cannon, as if she were an OT prophet or NT apostle.
They have also published their own version of the Bible where they actually changed the words of scripture, inserting their own false doctrine of the IJ into the text.
Ellen White did not share such a hermeneutical view. Why? Because it is wrong and impossible for any Protestant. But the modern SDA’s don’t listen to Ellen White any more then they listen to Christ or the Reformers. This is why they are self-destructing for all to see. They are not even Protestant any more.
Wow! This is what cults do. They invent additional doctrine and pretend it is truth. Then when someone, like Dr. Ford, stands up to defend the fundamentals of the Protestant Faith, and correct errors, he is slandered, persecuted, and exiled. The SDA’s are getting what they deserve. They are self destructing for all to see. And they will continue their descent into darkness unless the soon repent and embrace Gospel Reform.
Don said: We agree with the rest of the Christian churches that the 27 books of the New Testament are authoritative and each of equal importance.
Tom said: This is not true. The NT is superior to the OT. Like I said, the SDA’s are not honest with the Word. Like the Mormons, they have other sources for doctrine, which explains why their views are so confused and wrong.
The Mormons don’t listen to Christ about the Sabbath any more than does the NCT crowd or the Sunday keepers. All are following their own views, not the teachings of Christ. Including the SDA's.
Moreover, the OT is not the same as the NT. Here is a point where NCT is correct. They correctly teach that the NT is superior and more authoritative for the church. The SDA’s need to come to the place where the words of Jesus controls all doctrine. The moment this is done, the IJ, Tithe, and many other false SDA doctrines, like their OC view of the Sabbath, will fall away.
Don said: Certainly Paul, and others, said some things not found in the four gospels. Did Paul add to Jesus' message? Historically, Yes. Spiritually. No. Paul gave us messages from Jesus.
Tom said: Wrong. Paul has no authority, nor motivation to add to Jesus’ Gospel. Nor did he try. He considered himself a “slave” to Christ and his Gospel.
Rom. 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
Don said: New Covenant Theology (NCT) reminds us that Paul identified truths important for the Christian.
Tom replied: NCT promotes a false view about Paul. They claim he is anti-Sabbatarian, and that his limited remarks about the Sabbath are superior to what Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, teaches in the Gospels.
NCT is anti-Christ.
Don said: When Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would bring more truth, I don't think He envisioned this happening only in the immediate apostolic era. I believe that the Holy Spirit has been quite busy throughout the centuries up until and including today.
Tom said: Wrong! The Gospel has been fully articulated by Christ in the Gospels. In addition, the rest of the NT also contains the history and teachings of the apostolic church, with Jesus giving additional prophetic insight in the book of Revelation.
This idea that new truth can be added to the NT is heresy. This is not even a Protestant concept. The modern SDA’s have descended into the dark world of the cults because they have embraced this hermeneutical error. Unless they repent, and return to the Protestant Hermeneutic, they are doomed.
Don said: The difference is that the Holy Spirit's work in the apostolic era got captured and canonized whereas His work in later times did not get so favored.
Tom said: Wrong. There can be no new doctrine beyond the Gospel of Christ. The Cannon was closed at the end of the 1st century. Sorry. You either believe the words of Jesus in the four Gospels or you do not.
NCT does not believe or even understand what Jesus teaches about the 7th day. Nor do they want to. They are searching for a way to defend their new, anti-Sabbatarian views. They are not looking for truth as it is in Jesus, but for something else. They think they are wiser than Christ when it comes to the Sabbath. Impossible and absurd.
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
Bob 2 said: Don, once you get past Jesus, Peter and the other writing Apostles and Prophets, you lose the assurance of it being Jesus words, however, it does not keep various believers from taking different interpretations even of Peter and those Apostles that knew Christ directly.
Tom said: You don’t get it. There is no “getting past Jesus.” He is the head theologian of the church. No one has more authority than what he teaches. Those who reject his words, including what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath, are lost, lost, lost.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
In conclusion, NCT is built on sand. It has a very dishonest hermeneutic that ignores the Sabbath teachings of Christ and misunderstands Paul.
NCT’s anti-Sabbath, anti-Christ views cannot be defended in the slightest. Let all run away from NCT and towards Jesus Christ, the Lord of the active and reformed 7th day Gospel Sabbath.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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