The Tribulation

bob_2 · 03-08-10 1:29 pm

Tom, I think you have flipped out. You still think the RCC is going to force a Sunday Law and you use the word "commandment" in any of the 1 to 4 Angels message and talk of Judgement but you can not point to any command that shows the Sunday Law as the last test. Or the keeping of the Sabbath as the last test like the first test of Eve standing in front of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. It is important, the detail, because if a pope, or any other potentate, declares a Sunday Law, God's people will be or should be their, like we should have been at the Holocaust, to stand beside them and say to kill these people is insane and against God's Law of not killing.

Tom, you and Des Ford aren't enough for me to create your own reformed Sabbath with less does and don't. No, it is a greater expansion of the 4th Commandment, the 4th is obsolete as Heb 8:13, but if we are to rest in Jesus daily as I am suggesting, that is a 24/7/365 obligation to be right with Jesus/God, not a whittled down 4th Commandment as your Reformed Sabbath, still set up for your suggested prophetic end time events!!!!

Last edited by bob_2 (03-08-10 1:32 pm)

bob · 03-08-10 6:14 pm

Hi Bob, First of all I totally agree with you. We are not subject to the Old Covenant, so there is no command for observing any day. That said, Tom seems to think Jesus watered down the requirements of Sabbath observance and He somehow set the example and SDAs can follow all of this and come up with almost total disregard for the day.

The thing Tom is leaving out of this faulty formula is that in Matt 5 Jesus is very emphatic when He was telling the Pharisees that not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law until all was accomplished. Now if Jesus somehow weakened the requirements of the Sabbath law and proved that He did by the way He observed the day then He broke what He told the Pharisees would not happen until Calvary.

Jesus, in no way diminished the Sabbath law.

elaine · 03-08-10 11:06 pm

That phrase "until all should be fulfilled" is explained in the NT later to show that God DID fulfill the law by his perfect law-keeping and eliminating the Law that had formerly been the guide for the Jews. Now, for Christians, the Law is not our guide, but Christ is.

bob_2 · 03-09-10 6:12 am

Elaine, I would suggest you do a study on the NT Christ's Law. The Christian is never without standards, Holy Spirit driven in situation even that look nothing like the time of Christ. That is where the Holy Spirit/God is given to us to determine the standard of living.

elaine · 03-10-10 4:19 pm

Bob, where did I say that Christians were to live without standards?

The greatest commandment is not the Decalogue, but in the command to love on another.

bob_2 · 03-11-10 1:16 pm

Elaine said:

Now, for Christians, the Law is not our guide, but Christ is.

True Christ gives the commands, but it is not a loosey-goosey situation ethics. I like to think that Christ's Law was what existed before God expelled the Devil from Heaven. The devil broke something, verbal, written, something. Can you put your hand on a tangible NT/NC standard or is it all spiritualized, as you seem to imply? See my thread "What is the Law of Christ" . Sort of long but extremely helpful to wrap you mind around this topic.

Last edited by bob_2 (03-11-10 1:19 pm)

bob_2 · 03-11-10 1:26 pm

Could these not be the list that makes up the Law of Christ:

http://cranfordville.com/NTViceLists.html

http://cranfordville.com/NTVirtureLists.html

Or is that presumptuous to collect them all??

tom_norris · 03-13-10 3:01 pm

Elaine said: Why worry about a future tribulation when millions are currently experiencing it?

Tom said: While life itself is full of many serious problems, including death for everyone, few in the world are living in a time of genuine, protracted Tribulation. Out of 6 billion people today, how many are living in tribulation?

Do not confuse the tribulations of life, with the great and final Tribulation.

Acts 14:22 “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.”

While there are localized catastrophic events that routinely take place, (both man made, such as war, and acts of nature, like earth quakes), the final tribulation will be on an epic scale that is almost too horrible to imagine. It will be the worst of all tribulations in the history of the world.

Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

The Tribulation will be a dark time for the West, causing anguish for millions of people, even as tens of millions are plunged into the dark ages. This is not going to be pretty. And the very thought of us in the West, having all the comforts of life, and then overnight having nothing, will only make things seem worse, if that were possible.

So it would be very foolish to pretend that the final tribulation is already here. That is an absurd and reckless position that is very untrue. But life is full of many tribulations, which the NT teaches are meant to keep the Gospel pilgrim focused, tough, and hopeful.

Rom. 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom. 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Rom. 5:3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;

Rom. 5:4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;

Today things may be difficult for many people, especially with a very high, 10% unemployment rate. So I do not deny that life is hard or difficult.

But when the tribulation really hits, there will be 90% unemployment, and the 10% employed will be the Armed Forces, Homeland Security, and the Government. The rest of will be in a hopeless and desperate situation.

The stock market will plunge to zero, even as the lights will go off in one major city after another. Money will have no value, and food will quickly run out as commerce and transportation grinds to a sudden halt. THIS is the beginning of the Tribulation, even as it is the beginning of the end of the world.

When this final crisis strikes, it will forever destroy capitalism and the consumer economy, even as all imports and exports come to a sudden halt. THIS is the beginning of the end of the world…and the end of democracy. The party is over for planet earth and doom is assured.

Rev. 18:14 “The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them.

Rev. 18:15 “The merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning,

Rev. 18:16 saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls;

Rev. 18:17 for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance,

Rev. 18:18 and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’

Rev. 18:19 “And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in bone hour she has been laid waste!’

Rev. 18:22 “And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer;

Rev. 18:23 and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery.

Read Rev 18 and understand what is about to take place, perhaps in our lifetime. Do you think 9/ 11 was not a wake up call to the Church, as well as the rest of the world? It is a warning of much larger and more devastating things to come.

In fact, the experts say the unthinkable is inevitable, and it is only a matter of time before powerful WMD’s will make their mark in history and change civilization was we know it. Many experts are even more worried that once a few WMD’s have gone off in some key cities, that America, and others will be forced to surrender to some foreign power or risk the rest of their cities being destroyed.

So the US government is well aware of what they are dealing with, but many in the church have no idea about such things because they are not paying attention. They have fallen asleep and most won’t wake up until it is too late.

There is not going to be any Sunday laws, as the SDA’s teach, at least not prior to the close of probation and the start of the Tribulation. The emphasis on Sunday laws is outdated, wrong, and obsolete. And so too is the absurdities of the Secret Rapture and other such nonsense from every denomination.

There is going to be a real Time of Trouble that will lead to great destruction and fear, but before that happens, people will be living life as usual. Families will be growing and Commerce will be thriving, even as Real Estate, Construction, and Farming, as well as the restaurant and the bar industry, will be operating normally up until the Tribulation strikes.

There is no financial depression or religious persecution taking place on the eve of the Great Tribulation. The NT teaches that there is peace, safety, and a thriving economy when the end suddenly comes. For those that ignore the Word, there is no fear of judgment to come; all is well-- until it is too late.

The end will be worse than anything that mankind has ever experienced, according to Jesus. And it is going to sneak up on all those not paying attention.

Luke 17:26 “And just as it happened bin the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:

Luke 17:27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Luke 17:28 “It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building;

Luke 17:29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

Luke 17:30 “It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

Luke 17:31 “On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back.

Luke 17:32 “Remember Lot’s wife.

This is serious business; the last church is really going to have to run for the hills at some point because the cities are going to go up in flames. Which starts the Tribulation. Those that embrace the Gospel will become students of eschatology and pay attention to the world around them.

I suggest that you watch the History Channel production about how the Time of Trouble will really start. It was made in conjunction with Homeland Security.

WMD’s will start the Tribulation, not Sunday laws. THIS is what is shown in Rev 18. THIS is how the end of the world starts. Those that understand will get out of the way.

Here is a description of what the Government is preparing for:

Day After Disaster:
Against a morning sky, a mushroom cloud spirals heavenward. A nuclear bomb has detonated in the heart of Washington D.C., incinerating 15,000 residents in just 15 seconds.

More than 50% of the population living within a 1/2 mile radius of the explosion is either dead or severely injured.

The next 24 hours will determine whether the rest of the city lives or dies.

To survive this horrific ordeal they will need a plan. And lucky for us--there is one. But will it work?

For the first time on television, the Department of Homeland Security reveals the most detailed and comprehensive plan to save America should terrorists go nuclear. This chilling two-hour special delves into the complex and highly secretive world of disaster planning.

http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=108497

The Church today is fast asleep when it should be wide-awake! Homeland Security has a plan to protect the leaders and take control through Marshall Law, but the Church has no plan to do anything, nor do they care to have one. They like the status quo.

Those who follow the real Christ will understand and be ready. Those that don’t, will be unprepared and unsaved.

Matt. 25:5 “Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.

Matt. 25:6 “But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’

Matt. 25:7 “Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.

Matt. 25:8 “The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’

Matt. 25:9 “But the prudent answered, ‘No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.’

Matt. 25:10 “And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.

Matt. 25:11 “Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’

Matt. 25:12 “But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’

Matt. 25:13 “Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

Why worry about the Tribulation, besides the fact that it is almost here? Because Jesus teaches the church to be awake and alert at all times for the final Tribulation. The NT teaches that all Gospel believers are to be prepared for the final events to unfold.

The fact that every age appears to fall into tribulation, in no way diminishes the present crisis. Mankind has always been close to self-destructing. But at some point, the end will come. There will be no recovery from the final Tribulation. Only the Second Coming can save the church then.

Matt. 24:42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

Matt. 24:43 “But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be 2broken into.

Matt. 25:13 “Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

Luke 12:37 “Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them.

Luke 21:36 “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Those who teach that the Tribulation has already started are very wrong and irrational. They misunderstand Gospel eschatology as well as what is really about to take place.

Elaine said: People are not too concerned about future troubles ahead when they are mired in the multiple problems facing millions around the world. "Sufficient unto the day is the evil."

Tom said: Most all thinking people today are very worried about the future. In fact, there is great fear that we have entered into a very dangerous period where the world can be destroyed by any number of things like comets, plague, nuclear war, or global warming.

In fact, Jesus has predicted that the time will come when many become fearful and anxious about how the world will end, so much so that it affects them physically.

Luke 21:25 “There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,

Luke 21:26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

While people today make jokes about the end of the world, like they did during the great plagues that killed half the population in Europe, most all are very concerned because it is no joke. They joked because it was such a surreal disaster that they could not control. We do the same thing today:

http://www.endofworld.net/

See how they joked about the Tribulation in the dark ages:

http://www.insecta-inspecta.com/fleas/b … urope.html

http://www.dance-of-death.com/

http://entomology.montana.edu/historybu … edrano.htm

http://hq.abaa.org/books/antiquarian/ab … dance.html

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tapholov/pages … cabre.html

The great plague was very real, and what is going to happen will be even worse because there are so many more people alive now.

While certain periods of the church were more awful than others, the Laodicean Church is going to see the full brunt of the Tribulation. They are going to be tested like they have never dreamed. When the Tribulation really comes, many will wish they were born earlier, in another age.

Rev. 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Rev. 3:11 ‘I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

When the Tribulation starts, it will include WMD’s that contain plague, as well as radiation. The Government will go into lockdown, even as the health system fails and so too the mainline church, that had preached peace, safety, and prosperity. They will lose all credibility, just like the church did during the plague.

The church leaders said that God would protest America, but catastrophe happened instead. Like in the dark ages, they will not be in any position to help themselves or others. Their Gospel has turned out to be worthless, and so too their eschatology.

http://www.insecta-inspecta.com/fleas/b … hurch.html

While Jesus teaches that we are to live one day at a time, trusting that God has everything under his control, such words are not meant to put the church to sleep, thinking there is no Tribulation on the way.

Matt. 6:30 “But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!

Matt. 6:31 “Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’

Matt. 6:32 “For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.

Matt. 6:33 “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Matt. 6:34 “So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Matt. 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matt. 10:31 “So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.

The church is not to worry about the Tribulation, but to be ALERT and avoid it, (as much as possible) by careful preparation. The true Christian has Eternal Life regardless of what happens in the Tribulation. But this is no excuse to fall asleep and not be ready for danger and great trouble.

Mark 13:33 “Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come.

Mark 13:34 “It is like a man away on a journey, who upon leaving his house and putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay on the alert.

Mark 13:35 “Therefore, be on the alert — for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning —

Mark 13:37 “What I say to you I say to all, ‘Be on the alert!’”

Elaine said: Why worry about the inevitable?

The church is not to WORRY, but to be READY. The church is not to fall asleep, but to remain awake, alert, ready for action and ready to move out of harms way.

Luke 21:21 “Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;

Today, the church is not prepared in the slightest for the Time of Trouble or the Second Coming. They don’t teach the Gospel or the Sabbath correctly, much less eschatology or anything else.

Those that teach the Tribulation is already here are assisting in this error. They are working against Heaven and misunderstanding Gospel Eschatology.

If the Tribulation has already started, then what is the point of preparing for it? But it has not started, and the church had better get serious about eschatology and stop fooling themselves with double-talk and delusion. It is time to understand Gospel eschatology and prepare for what is to come.

Matt. 24:19 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

Matt. 24:20 “But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Matt. 24:22 “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Luke 21:27 “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.

Luke 21:28 “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Let all embrace the Gospel and become alert about what is about to take place-- and get ready. Not in fear, but in expectation that our “redemption” is getting close.

Bob 2 said: Tom, I think you have flipped out. You still think the RCC is going to force a Sunday Law…”

Tom said: Bob, you are not paying attention: I do not think that the Sunday laws will start the time of trouble, as the SDA’s teach. Rather, the tribulation will be started by WMD’s; placed by those that hate the Jews. This has zero to do with the RCC or the Sabbath as the SDA’s teach, but everything to do with ancient history and grudges.

Why are you having such a hard time understanding this discussion?

I have met many that cannot fathom Adventist Reform. It confuses their cultic minds and drives them further into delusion and irrational behavior. In fact, I found someone online who thinks I am really promoting Sunday as the Sabbath, and that I am actually a Jesuit in disguise. Neither of which are true in the slightest.

http://www.seventh-dayadventism.com/for … suits3.htm

So this discussion about the Reformed Sabbath is flipping a number of people out. Just like it did in the Gospels. While some rejoiced at this new Gospel Sabbath that Jesus was promoting, others, especially the religious leaders, thought he had gone mad, or was demon possessed. The majority were perplexed, caught in the middle.

Tom Norris is not a Jesuit, nor is he promoting Sunday or the OC Sabbath of the SDA’s. This old and tired eschatology about the Sabbath is outdated and wrong. While there will be persecution at some point, after the Tribulation has started, it will be about the Gospel, not about any day.

Where the Gospel is preached and lived, there will also be the Gospel Sabbath nearby. So who knows how these post probation details will turn out? We need to better understand what is going to happen before probation ends, not afterwards.

Do not misunderstand: This “new” Sabbath that Adventist Reform promotes is the same Sabbath that the SDA’s were supposed to proclaim. The Battle Creek Pioneers were hot on the trail of this Gospel Sabbath, and then they took a wrong turn, away from the Gospel, which in turn morphed their view of the Sabbath into a legalistic echo of the Pharisees, the enemies of Christ.

Had Jones, Waggoner, and Ellen White had their way during the 1888 debates, the Gospel Sabbath would have emerged for all to see, even as new eschatology would also have been developed to replace what had been incorrectly understood about the Sabbath.

Regardless of the past mistakes of the SDA’s, we have arrived at a place when the Gospel Sabbath is emerging for all to see. We could not have reached this point of understanding without the past efforts of the SDA’s.

Now it is time for the Adventists to admit their errors, repent, and move forward with the new and correct Gospel Sabbath that is being promoted by Dr. Ford and Tom Norris.

Thus the correct Gospel and the correct doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath becomes the foundation for the next Advent message, the 4th.

The 3rd Angels Message, which equals Traditional Adventism, is history. Bad history. This paradigm is over, and it is time that it is given a respectful and proper burial, complete with confession and repentance for the colossal failure to embrace the true Gospel and the correct Sabbath.

The “Insane” Sabbath

The Jews were so wrong about God and theology, that they were stunned, amazed, and divided by the new Sabbath teaching of Jesus. It was like nothing they have ever heard or imagined.

Mark 6:2 When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?

Luke 2:33 And His father and mother were amazed at the things which were being said about Him.

Luke 2:47 And all who heard Him were amazed at His understanding and His answers.

Luke 4:32 and they were amazed at His teaching, for His message was with authority.

This is the same reaction today, for the very same reason. The Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath seems wrong to all, because it is not what people assume it to be. It is counterintuitive and the opposite of what all have been taught. Thus many will do the same as in the days of Jesus. They will reject the “insane” Sabbath of Jesus. Some actually thought he had gone crazy or was demon possessed.

John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”

John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”

At the end of time, those that embrace the genuine Gospel of the NT, will also believe in the “insane” and counter-intuitive” Gospel Sabbath as taught by Jesus in the NT. It will prove that they are following his Word, even as those that reject the teachings of Jesus are self-condemned by their false testimony.

Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

True Sabbath is Counter-intuitive:

Why is the NC Sabbath counter-intuitive? Because the OC Sabbath is correctly viewed as a doctrine of the Moral Law. It clearly says that no work is allowed; not for the children or the servants or even guests and strangers. Not even the “cattle” were allowed to work on the 7th day:

Ex. 20:8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Ex. 20:9 “Six days you shall labor and do all your work,

Ex. 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.

Ex. 20:11 “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Thus the Sabbath Law is very clear and unambiguous.

But Jesus is teaching a very DIFFERENT SABBATH for the church. A working and active Sabbath that is the OPPOSITE of the OC Sabbath of the Jews.

It is a great mistake to misunderstand this point. Many overlook the fact that the NC Sabbath of Jesus is based on a priestly exemption of this law. He is not enforcing OC Sabbath keeping, but undermining it. He is teaching a new Sabbath for the Church.

This stunning and far reaching theological articulation by Jesus allows the NC Sabbath to be viewed in a very different manner from the OCS. Which is why there is no Sabbath breaking possible for the Christian. It is not based on law, but on an exemption for the priests, which in the NC, is EVERYONE.

So all are free to fellowship and worship on the 7th day as well as work and play on that day. It is an active and very different Sabbath from what the Jews and the SDA’s have assumed. Surprise!

Sabbath is a sign of Judaism

As for the Tribulation, any that embraces the Sabbath, whether it be incorrectly like the Jews and the SDA’s, or correctly, like the NC Sabbath, will be viewed as JEWS and treated as such. In fact the true Christians will admit to being spiritual Jews, and be proud of it, denouncing Sunday as a Gentile fraud as well as any anti-Semitism.

Such loyalty to a Jewish paradigm will be the reason for their persecution. The enemies of the Jews, which are legion, assure vengeance.

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then 1recognize that her desolation is near.

Luke 21:21 “Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;

Luke 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

THIS is why the Christians are persecuted at the end of time. They are considered to be Jewish. Thus another holocaust will emerge, this time, sweeping up those Christians that repudiate the Gentile, Sunday based version of Christianity and cling to the true doctrine of the Sabbath. Such a correct affinity for Judaism and the Gospel will cause their persecution.

The very same anti-Semitic forces that started the Time of Trouble, will also persecute those that follow the teachings of Christ, the leading Jew.

We don’t know all the details as yet, but they are coming into better focus.

Bob 2 said: Tom, you and Des Ford aren't enough for me to create your own reformed Sabbath with less do’s and don'ts.

Tom said: Pay attention: The author of the REFORMED Sabbath for the church, is Jesus Christ.

It is his words and actions, as recorded in the Gospels, by FOUR apostles that establish the Sabbath doctrine for all that embrace the New Covenant. --Not Dr. Ford or Tom Norris. Don’t shoot the messengers.

Jesus has all the authority necessary to establish this doctrine, even as all four Gospels repeat his Sabbath teachings to make certain the church understands. But the church has not understood the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath correctly. Which is why the last church must repent and reform, finally getting it correct.

It is time for the church to REPENT and embrace the genuine Gospel, which includes the REFORMED, 7th day Sabbath. All other gospels, and all other Sabbaths, are worthless frauds. Let all beware.

Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Bob said: We are not subject to the Old Covenant, so there is no command for observing any day.

Tom said: I never said that any Christian is bound by the OC. Nor am I suggesting, like the SDA’s, that we must observe the OC Sabbath. So there is no OC Sabbath for the Christian to observe.

But there is a NC Sabbath for the church to embrace with both hands. Which is why there has been a Sabbath doctrine in the church since the very beginning of the church, even up to the present day.

The fact that Sunday is wrong and so too the SDA Sabbath is beside the point that there is a Sabbath for the church. There has ALWAYS been a Sabbath for the church, and there always will be. So your objection is off point and refuted by the long history of the church.

Bob said: Tom seems to think Jesus watered down the requirements of Sabbath observance;

Tom said: Ha! This is funny. THIS is what YOU THINK, not what I think or what the NT teaches.

Jesus was not “watering down” the OC Sabbath; NO, no. He abolished it, and turned it on its head.

Work is the OPPOSITE of NO WORK. They are polar opposites. The Law says, “Thou shalt not work…” But Jesus says the OPPOSITE! Over and over.

John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

So Jesus theologically transformed the OC, Sabbath of Moses and the Levites, into a very different, NC Sabbath that taught the OPPOSITE about work, and God. The new Sabbath was full of activity and mercy, which many Jews could not understand.

There are TWO very different Sabbaths clashing in the Gospel Story. Thus, whenever the word Sabbath is used, one must stop and understand if it is the OC Sabbath or the very different NC Sabbath that Jesus was teaching.

For example, look at this text. What Sabbath is it referencing?

Luke 23:54 It was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.

Luke 23:55 Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.
----------------------------------------------

This is the OC Sabbath, complete with a Friday ”preparation day” that the SDA’s have also adopted to their shame.

The NCS has NO "preparation day" because there is no need to do twice the work on Friday, because one cannot do any work on the Sabbath.

The NCS does not need a preparation day because one can work on this Gospel Sabbath. Which means they can cook, travel, eat at a restaurant, and do all manner of necessary and good things. Many will look at this liberal behavior and call them "Sabbath breakers." Thus proving their ignorance of the Gospel Sabbath and salvation.

The legalists have failed to understand that the prohibition against work on the Sabbath has been REMOVED for all that follow the new High Priest, Jesus the Christ. Those that are NC priests do NOT fall under the OC rules of Sabbath keeping. They are free from the schoolmaster Sabbath of the OC. So says the Lord of the Sabbath and the Savior of the church.

Bob said: He somehow set the example and SDA’s can follow all of this and come up with almost total disregard for the day.

Tom said: First off, you should not judge what a person does on the Sabbath. This is exactly what Paul is referencing in Colossians 2: 16.

Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —

We are all priests of Christ, and thus all can deal directly with Christ, not having to answer to any earthly religious authority about anything, much less our Sabbath behavior. Only Jesus can instruct anyone about how to observe the Gospel Sabbath.

Second, just because someone works on the Sabbath, to feed their family or themselves, it does not mean that they are disregarding the day. Jesus worked very hard on the Sabbath, (and so too did the OC priests), and yet Jesus was a champion of the Sabbath, even its Lord.

Third: The 7th day can be very special and meaningful for the church because it is marked by congregational fellowship, worship, and Gospel teaching. This primary and fundamental behavior on the Sabbath is what makes it special for the church, regardless if one has to work later in the day or not.

Those that embrace the Gospel will also follow the Sabbath teachings of Jesus in the NT. He has made it very clear by his words and his actions how the day is to be treated and understood. Ignore his teachings at your own eternal peril.

Bob said: The thing Tom is leaving out of this faulty formula is that in Matt 5 Jesus is very emphatic when He was telling the Pharisees that not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law until all was accomplished.

Tom said: What is wrong with a formula that determines to follow the Sabbath teachings of Jesus? Why is that a “faulty” position? It is those that pretend there is no Sabbath for the church, or that it is Sunday or the OC, 7th day that are standing in quicksand.

Luke 6:49 “But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”

It is ONLY those that embrace the Gospel Sabbath that are standing on a sure foundation. All others, with their impossible views of the Sabbath, eschatology, and the Gospel, have it wrong.

Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Bob said: Now if Jesus somehow weakened the requirements of the Sabbath law and proved that He did by the way He observed the day, then He broke what He told the Pharisees would not happen until Calvary.
Jesus, in no way diminished the Sabbath law.

Tom said: The doctrine of the Sabbath is more complex than many have assumed. The Sabbath of the Jews, with its many rules and prohibitions, is NOT the same Sabbath doctrine that Jesus is promoting. Until this FACT is comprehended, confusion will reign on this topic.

Jesus did not weaken the Sabbath Law, or declare it was abolished. Rather, he pointed to an existing exemption in the law that rendered the schoolmaster Sabbath abolished, even as he found a way to create a very new and different Sabbath for the entire Church. It was pure theological genius, which few have comprehended as yet.

Jesus views everyone in the Church as priests, and thus he teaches a very different Sabbath from the non-priestly Jewish Sabbath of the OC.

In other words, the NC Sabbath is based on a fundamental theological shift within the Two Covenants.

The NC Sabbath shows who understands the Gospel and follows Christ, and who does not. Those like the SDA’s, that are clinging to the OC Sabbath, as if they were Jews, and as if they were not priests of Christ, have fallen from grace.

Not only are they not saved, they will never be saved unless they repent and embrace the genuine Gospel, which is associated with the NC, working Sabbath, as taught by Jesus in the Gospels.

Elaine said: That phrase "until all should be fulfilled" is explained in the NT later to show that God DID fulfill the law by his perfect law-keeping and eliminating the Law that had formerly been the guide for the Jews. Now, for Christians, the Law is not our guide, but Christ is.

Tom said: Christ was born a Jew of the non-priestly tribe of Judah. Thus he did obey the Sabbath law perfectly for those in his station. But when he started his ministry, he introduced a new Sabbath to the Jews, causing an uproar that caused his death.

Thus the preaching of the NC Sabbath marks a transition from the OC to the NC. This is an important point that should not be overlooked.

Note that Jesus did not remove the Moral law regarding the Sabbath. No. He applied an exemption to the law, which allowed all to work on the NC Sabbath, even as the original and underlying Sabbath law was retained.

Jesus was not the Lord of the “eliminated” or OC Sabbath, but the author and Lord of the NC, Gospel Sabbath. Misunderstand this point at your own risk.

Bob 2 said: Elaine, I would suggest you do a study on the NT Christ's Law.

Tom said: Everyone needs to study the difference between the OC, Schoolmaster Sabbath and the very different Gospel Sabbath that Jesus teaches in all four Gospels.

Such a study will help all to see the NC Sabbath.

Bob 2 said: The Christian is never without standards, Holy Spirit driven in situations, even that look nothing like the time of Christ.

Tom said: The Christian must follow the Gospel teachings of Jesus, as contained in the NT. Period! They are not under the Moral law as the SDA’s teach. They must “keep his words,” which includes his REFORMED Sabbath doctrine.

Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

THIS is the Gold Standard for all that claim Eternal Life. The HS tries to make the Word come alive, even as it imparts wisdom to us so that we can understand, always pointing us back to the teachings of Jesus at all times.

John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

John 6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

John 14:25 “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you.

John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

No one can seriously claim to follow Jesus Christ, and at the same time repudiate his Gospel Sabbath. Consequently, the NC Sabbath is a test of ones honesty and fidelity to Christ and his Gospel. How sad that most all in Laodicea have failed the test. Which is why they are all condemned and ordered to repent.

John 8:47 “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”

John 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.

John 14:10 “Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

Those that refuse to understand the NC, 7th day, active Sabbath of Christ, have rejected God and Christ, regardless if they think otherwise. They are doomed.

Bob 2 said: That is where the Holy Spirit/God is given to us to determine the standard of living.

Tom said: Wrong. The Moral law remains the standard of duty and behavior as it relates to God, man and the church.

Moreover, the Gospel teachings of Jesus are the highest expression of this law, which is called love. To fulfill the law correctly is to love both God and man, and this is what Jesus accomplished through the Gospel.

Matt. 22:37 And He said to him, “‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’

Matt. 22:38 “This is the great and foremost commandment.

Matt. 22:39 “The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’

Matt. 22:40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Rom. 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Rom. 13:9 For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

Rom. 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Which means that Jesus Reformed Sabbath is an expression of love that comes directly from God.

The NC Sabbath is a special day of GOOD WORKS, and thus this Gospel doctrine is also fulfilled in the saying: “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

Elaine said: That phrase "until all should be fulfilled" is explained in the NT later to show that God DID fulfill the law by his perfect law-keeping and eliminating the Law that had formerly been the guide for the Jews. Now, for Christians, the Law is not our guide, but Christ is.

Tom said: Most of what you say is true, except there was no “elimination” of the moral law as a standard of behavior for the church. (Do not confuse the Moral law with the many ceremonial laws of Judaism and the Temple.)

1Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Christ, who interprets and lived the Moral law for us, is the embodiment of the law, which is also called love. Jesus is our primary guide for all behavior and belief, INCLUDING the REFORMED SABBATH.

The SDA’s have made a great error to claim they are following the law by their incorrect, OC Sabbath keeping. Christ repudiated this Sabbath in all four Gospels. Thus the SDA’s must REPENT of their OC Sabbath that comes directly from the OT Moral law and the Pharisees. This is the wrong Sabbath for the church.

The genuine NEW COVENANT Sabbath comes from the teaching and example of Christ in the Gospels. THIS is the Sabbath for the church. There is no other.

Those today that claim to embrace the Gospel teachings of Jesus, MUST follow his REFORMED, 7th day, active Sabbath, as well as his many other teachings about the Kingdom of God.

They cannot make up their own doctrine of the Sabbath, nor do they have any authority to invent a Sunday keeping Christ, or teach OC Sabbath keeping, which was repudiated by Jesus. Much less pretend that there is no weekly Sabbath for the church.

Those that truly love Christ will also love his REFORMED, active, and non-judgmental Sabbath, while those that are only pretending to follow him will become condemned by their false Sabbath doctrines.

There has always been a Sabbath for the church, even though this doctrine has been badly misunderstood by the Sunday keeping Gentiles and the anti-Catholic Sabbatarians. But now, there is a very different Gospel Sabbath emerging for all to marvel at. It is so different, and so well supported by the NT, that it will condemn EVERY church and denomination in the land. Starting with the SDA’s, the greatest of all Gentile Sabbatarian movements in the church.

Let all understand and embrace the Protestant, Gospel, which includes the REFORMED, active, 7th-day Sabbath as taught by Christ. There is no other Gospel Sabbath.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for eschatological and Sabbath reform in the church

Last edited by tom_norris (03-21-10 12:35 am)

bob_2 · 03-14-10 10:42 am

Tom, you are not taking the whole Bible into account when looking at this issue, for example:

Acts 26: 15 ..." 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 16'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you.

Then texts such as Col 2:16,17 need to be taken into account, and

Heb 4: 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts."[d] 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

Also if God truly rested at creation, rather than meaning "rest" as the end of His creation, why would Jesus have said:

John 5: 16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Work must mean something different to God/Jesus than to you or SDAs?

The only thing Jesus taught about the Sabbath is it was not to be weighed down, under the OC with the Pharisees ridiculous laws. He asked people to come to Him and receive Rest, that His yoke is easy. He is the fulfillment of the Sabbath. It's OK to worship on Saturday or whatever day , but it is not part of the Gospel. The Gospel is very pure.

Gospel definition:

The proclamation of the redemption preached by Jesus and the Apostles, which is the central content of Christian revelation.

tom_norris · 03-16-10 10:54 am

Bob 2 said: Tom, you are not taking the whole Bible into account…

Tom said: Those that refuse to honestly read the Gospels and refuse to see how Jesus defends and reforms the Sabbath, will not understand the Gospel Story, much less the Gospel Sabbath, or anything else in the Bible.

Those that are determined to proof text their way around the Bible, intent on defending their false views, while at the same time ignoring the clear teachings of Jesus and the apostles, will never understand the NC. They are playing games with the Word as well as with their own souls.

Eternal life is ONLY given to those that FOLLOW the teachings of Christ. Not to those that repudiate his teachings, misunderstand the Word, and refuse the Holy Spirit.

Moreover, Jesus claimed his controversial and very different Sabbath doctrine came directly from God. So who are you to spit on this heaven sent doctrine and pretend it does not matter or even exist? Who is anyone to challenge God almighty and his Son, the head of the Church?

John 7:16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.

John 7:17 “If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

To refute the Gospel Sabbath is to refute the almighty and reject his Son. Beware such foolish arrogance and wickedness. It will end in disaster for all those pretenders. Just look at the Jews and see what happened to them and their Old Covenant Temple.

Bob 2 said: Also if God truly rested at creation, rather than meaning "rest" as the end of His creation, …Work must mean something different to God/Jesus than to you or SDA’s?

Tom said: There is no reason to try and second guess the Creation Story or the Sabbath doctrine of Judaism, much less question the motives of God.

The history of the Jews makes it very clear that there was to be no work performed on the Sabbath because it was a special day to honor the Creation. This is what their law taught and Jesus knew it all too well. He was a Jew, and thus he understood how the OC operated, even as he knew what he was doing by pushing the NC forward and creating the Church.

Few understand that the Sabbath is a special doctrine that reflects the transition from the OC to the NC. It is a test doctrine to see who is really following Jesus and his Gospel and who are just confused or pretending.

Right now, you are just a confused pretender. You do not understand nor follow the Gospel teachings of Jesus. The Sabbath is a perfect and telling proof that exposes your false views, as well as all others.

The way one views the Gospel is reflected by their view of the Sabbath. And at this point, most everyone is condemned because of their twisted and impossible views of the Sabbath and most everything else. So be careful how you deal with the Sabbath. It says a lot about your faith.

Jesus does not deny the long history of the Sabbath, or the Moral law that demands no work on the 7th day, (except for the Levitical priests). But he does find a stunning exemption around this OC Law, even as he REFORMS the Sabbath into a very different NC doctrine that fits with the new doctrine of the priesthood of all believers.

The change from the OC Sabbath of the Jews to the NC Sabbath of the Church was not only brilliant theology from the mind of God; it is also very important doctrine that the church must better understand. At the end of time, this is what the SDA’s were tasked to accomplish.

While the SDA’s were correct to debunk Sunday and promote the 7th Day as the Sabbath for the church, they failed to find the genuine Gospel, which left them with a false, OC Sabbath. To which they added a long list of additional false doctrines like Tithe and the IJ, and abstinence, and food laws, etc.

Although the SDA’s came close to understanding the Gospel Sabbath in 1888, they failed; and self-destructed as a result. Another opportunity came in 1980, but once again, the Jews, err, I mean the SDA’s, fumbled the Gospel, and removed their best scholar, Dr. Ford, who was trying to teach them the truth about the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath.

Here we are, 30 years later, trying once again to help the SDA’s understand the Gospel and the Sabbath correctly. Perhaps the third time will be a charm? Or perhaps the final disaster for them?

If anyone should care about getting the Sabbath correct, is should be the SDA’s. But they have gone so corrupt, that their leaders no longer care about truth or their mission to prepare the church for the Judgment Day.

How sad.

Bob 2 said: The only thing Jesus taught about the Sabbath is that it was not to be weighed down, under the OC with the Pharisees ridiculous laws.

Tom said: Why do you fight the facts of Scripture? Why do you make false statements about the teachings of Jesus? The Gospels are full of the Sabbath teachings of Jesus. They are far more complex, important, and profound than you claim.

Perhaps you view this discussion as some sort of competition, as if we were in politics, complete with talking points and dishonest spin? Think again.

This is not how one approaches the Word. To be dishonest with the Word, which was written in part by the Holy Sprit, is blasphemy, not artful debate. You need to stop denying the facts and stop forcing your own delusions into this discussion. You need to learn how to honestly read the scriptures and stop taking positions against the Holy Sprit, or you are a doomed man.

Matt. 12:30 “He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

Matt. 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

Matt. 12:32 “Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Jesus ministry featured a revolutionary, NC Gospel, which was accompanied and supported by a very controversial and revolutionary NC Sabbath. His Sabbath teaching was far more central to his ministry and church doctrine than you admit.

Furthermore, you are wrong to think that the OC Sabbath rules and regulations were “ridiculous laws.” They were no such thing, and Jesus never said otherwise.

God designed all the OC laws and ritual sacrifices, including their Sabbath laws, for a specific purpose and time. They were very necessary for the development of the Kingdom of God.

Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

So once again, you are proving to all that you cannot understand the Bible or the Gospel teaching of Christ, that alone can save your sorry soul.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

This statement was made in the context of the Sabbath debate. Jesus “words” specifically includes his reformed Sabbath teachings, which you deny. Which means you will be found guilty at the Judgment Day and denied Eternal Life because you admittedly do not believe what Jesus teaches about the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath.

Are you sure that you want to dig in your heels and fight against the Gospel Sabbath, just like the Jews did? Do you really think this is a worthwhile and sane position for anyone that claims to be following Jesus?

At least the Pharisees made no pretense about following Jesus. They made it known to all that they despised this man and repudiated his “insane” Sabbath teachings. Why not be honest and do the same?

I think you have gone mad, and so too any Christian that tries to ignore the clear teachings of Jesus about the Gospel Sabbath. Disbelieve that Christ is who he claims to be, which is bad enough, but don’t be so foolish as to pretend that he did not teach a new and very different Sabbath for the Church.

It is a clear fact that is found in all four Gospels.

Jesus taught a very different, NC Sabbath for the church. Only those that do not want to see this point, and shut their eyes to this Gospel fact, could miss it.

The True Shepard has a True Sabbath for the Sheep

Following a heated Sabbath debate with the leaders, Jesus makes the following remarks. In such a context it is clear what he is saying. Those that repudiate his Gospel Sabbath are not following the true Shepard.

John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.

John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

Those Christians that reject the Gospel Sabbath as taught by Jesus, are not following the true Shepherd. They are unsaved criminals, doing great harm to the flock. They are following the “voice of strangers.”

Those that are called to Eternal Life, will hear the voice of their Savior, Shepard, and teacher, who is also the self-proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath. They will follow him, AND his Gospel Sabbath.

Note that the context of this famous passage about Jesus being the Good Shepard is a debate over the NC Sabbath. Understand that it took a miracle for some to understand the truth about the Sabbath.

Why?

Because all the Jews were BLIND to the Gospel and the GS. They could not understand without having their eyes opened so they could see. But few wanted to see. They liked the dark. They liked the status quo.

Note also what happens to those whose eyes have been opened to see this new Sabbath teaching. Those who received their sight believed Jesus and embraced his new Sabbath. Consequently, they were rudely cursed and thrown out by the religious leaders.

Jesus then calls the leaders blind and they in turn call him a Sabbath breaker. Division resulted.

John 9:15 Then the Pharisees also were asking him again how he received his sight. And he said to them, “He applied clay to my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”

John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.

John 9:26 So they said to him, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?”

John 9:27 He answered them, “I told you already and you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?”

John 9:28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but awe are disciples of Moses.

John 9:29 “We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, awe do not know where He is from.”

John 9:30 The man answered and said to them, “Well, here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes.

John 9:31 “We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.

John 9:32 “Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind.

John 9:33 “If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.”

John 9:34 They answered him, “You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?” So they put him out.

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

John 9:36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”

John 9:37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.”

John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

It took a miracle to open the eyes of the blind, so that some could understand the Gospel Sabbath. What a pity that this same miracle hardened the hearts of the leaders, and made them even more determined to fight against this new Gospel Sabbath.

Let all Laodiceans open their eyes to the Gospel Sabbath and repent for their many errors.

Bob 2 said: He asked people to come to Him and receive Rest, that His yoke is easy.

Tom said: Those that responded to Jesus, and came to him for spiritual rest, physical healing, and salvation, also embraced his very controversial, working Sabbath. This is why the very next verse introduces the reformed, Gospel Sabbath.

Why did you omit this important context? Why do you play games with the Word and tempt the Holy Spirit?

Matt. 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Matt. 11:29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

Matt. 11:30 “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Matt. 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.

Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”

Matt. 12:3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions,

Matt. 12:4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the 1consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?

Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple 1break the Sabbath and are innocent?
Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

Matt. 12:7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE 2COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

You need to stop quoting any scripture until you can learn to do it in an honest and responsible manner.

The passage that you cited was taken out of its context on purpose. You tried to marginalize, ignore and omit the long associated passage about the Gospel Sabbath because it disproves your view. But this is not how one is to treat the NT. You don’t get to cut and past as you see fit.

In fact, you really must repent of this absurd idea that Jesus is the fulfillment of the OC Sabbath and therefore there is no NC Sabbath for the church. This is not a credible or sane view of theology, which is why neither the RCC nor the Protestants teach such a strange view of the Sabbath.

Thanks to the great incompetence of all religious leaders, from all denominations, many have no idea how to read the Bible correctly. Most of what has been taught about the Bible by their pastors or others that discuss religion, is unprofessional, dishonest, and very disrespectful of the Word.

Unless you stop this serious abuse of scripture, which is also blasphemy of the Holy Sprit, there is no forgiveness. You will remain blind to the Gospel; a lost man, and so too any that play these wretched games.

Those that accepted Jesus Gospel, ALSO accepted his Gospel Sabbath. They were, and still are, a package deal. To refuse the reformed Sabbath of Jesus, is to also refuse the Gospel and forfeit Eternal Life. Let all be very careful how they treat the words of Christ and his Gospel Sabbath.

Bob 2 said: Jesus is the fulfillment of the Sabbath.

Tom said: At what point does one surrender a lost cause? At what point do the confused and wretched Laodiceans begin to open their eyes and see clearly?

Jesus was the fulfillment of the long predicted Messiah of the Jews. The Messiah was never considered to be the fulfillment of the 7th day Sabbath, and neither Jesus nor his apostles teach such an absurd doctrine.

So you need to stop inserting your own incompetent musings into the Gospel Story. You are not the only one that does this. Every church in the world is guilty of contaminating the Gospel with their false and impossible views, which have reduced the Christian Faith to worthless and wretched drivel.

Which is why Jesus has condemned every church in Laodicea; demanding that they repent and reform or else.

But so far I don’t see any church trying to make sure they have a correct Gospel, or correct Sabbath, much less repenting for the endless garbage they teach. Least of all the dishonest and self-destructing SDA’s. Few seem to care about truth whatsoever.

What I see is mountains of double-talk, confusion, and corruption, with one blasphemy and false doctrine piled on top of another. All in the name of Jesus.

No wonder the State of the Laodicean Church makes Jesus vomit. We should all be sick because of this unholy disaster. All that honestly seek truth must separate from those that abuse the Word and repudiate the Gospel.

Bob 2 said: It's OK to worship on Saturday or whatever day, but it is not part of the Gospel. The Gospel is very pure.

Tom said: On whose authority do you speak? Are you an apostle? Are you a NT scholar? Ha! Just a few posts ago you were denying that Jesus was a NT figure, even as you claimed his teachings were for the Jews and not the Christians.

Wow! Since when does theological incompetence grant one doctrinal authority?

Pay attention: It is NOT OK to ignore and repudiate the Gospel Sabbath that Jesus teaches in the NT.

It is NOT OK to pretend that all days are alike, or that there is not a Gospel Sabbath for the church.

Such points of view are heretical and blasphemous. They will keep you outside the Kingdom of God. Sorry.

Perhaps people can better see how the reformed Sabbath will become a test at the end of time. The way one treats the teachings of Jesus will determine their fate.

Those that play fast and loose with the Bible, repudiating the reformed Sabbath in the Gospels, and making up their own doctrines, are only fooling themselves, and anyone else stupid enough to follow their errors.

Jesus failed to convince the Jews that his Reformed Sabbath was from God. Thus they rejected his Gospel and his Gospel Sabbath, which resulted in his death and their eternal doom. What a mistake the Jews made! But the Gentiles are no better. They too have repudiated the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath. Their fate will be like the Jews.

Listen to Jesus respond to those that repudiated his Gospel Sabbath. His words still apply to us today:

John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.

John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

John 5:41 “I do not receive glory from men;

John 5:42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.

John 5:43 “I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.

John 5:44 “How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?

John 5:45 “Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.

John 5:46 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.

John 5:47 “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

The genuine Gospel is closely associated with the Reformed Sabbath that Jesus teaches in the Gospels. Those that accept the real Gospel, will also embrace the one and only Gospel Sabbath of the NT. Those that don’t, won’t.

Luke 10:21 At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, “I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.

Luke 10:22 “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

There is going to be a final division in the church over the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath. Those who want to know the Son, and follow his words, will find the Gospel, and understand the NC Sabbath. They will become eschatologically alert, ready for the Tribulation that is fast approaching.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for Gospel Reform

bob_2 · 03-16-10 12:27 pm

Tom said:

There is going to be a final division in the church over the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath.

This is probably the most blatant example of the Gospel + something that I have seen. BTW Are you and Des the only ones purporting this theory? When studying the Word, it is best to test the Scriptures by presenting it and determining the logic and reasonableness of it.

elaine · 03-17-10 8:21 pm

There is neither a "Gospel Sabbath" or a "Christian Sabbath." Sabbath originated with the Jews and was never instituted for Christians.

The old canard that Sabbath should be observed because Jesus did, conveniently overlooks that he was born, lived, and died under the Jewish law; Christians are not subject to that law which is repeated over and over again by the apostle to the Gentiles who outlined that the Gospel and Christ replaced the Law under which the Jews had formerly lived. We Christians are NOT Jews and not under the Law.

tom_norris · 03-27-10 11:49 am

Bob 2 said: This is probably the most blatant example of the Gospel + something that I have seen.

Tom said: Your inability to understand the Gospel, combined with your blatant disregard for the Word and the teachings of Jesus is very sad.

Here is a link to help you better understand and define the Gospel. It is more complex than many comprehend:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -SDA-s.htm

The Sabbath is Part of the Gospel:

So long as the earth exists, the Sabbath cannot be removed from either Judaism or the Christian faith.

Matt. 5:18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

In fact, Jesus warned that no one was to minimize, “annul,” or do away with any of his NC teachings, which of course, includes his doctrine of the Sabbath that is featured in all four Gospels.

Matt. 5:19 “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Understand that to repudiate the NC Sabbath, is to also repudiate the perfect Sabbatarian Righteousness of Christ, that alone is salvific. Without the full, 100% righteousness of Christ, imputed by faith, no sinner will be saved. To reject the NC Sabbath is to reject not only Christ’s authority and teachings, but also his imputed righteousness on this point. This is a fatal error.

Matt. 5:20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Sinners are only saved by the imputed, Sabbatarian Righteousness of Christ. Thus, the perfect OC and NC Sabbath keeping of Jesus, is part of the Gospel; part of Christ’s righteousness that is credited to all sinners for salvation.

Who would be so foolish as to deny Jesus on this point, and still think they will receive Eternal life? What type of Christian would be so foolish as to fight against the Gospel Sabbath and reject the Sabbatarian Righteousness of Christ?

Answer: Many, even legions.

Those that repudiate the 7th day, Reformed Sabbath, thinking there is no such duty or doctrine for the church, have deprived themselves of the Righteousness of Christ on this point. Proving that they do not know, follow, or understand Christ, nor are they standing “in him” by faith. They will be lost.

Phil. 3:8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,

Phil. 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

Note: To be “in Christ” means to embrace his view of the Sabbath, and welcome his Sabbatarian Righteousness for our salvation. Those with variant Sabbath views, or no Sabbath view at all, are standing OUTSIDE Christ. Outside the Kingdom of God.

Christ’s Righteousness includes the Sabbath doctrine.

The perfect righteousness, by which we are saved, is Semitic and Sabbatarian. Why deny that the 7th day Sabbath is part of the Moral law? Why deny the validity of the NC Sabbath of Jesus, and deny his full righteousness, and well as his testimony about God and the Gospel Sabbath?

Those that embrace the Sunday Sabbath, or the OC Sabbath of the Jews or the SDA’s, have made a fatal error, even as they have embraced a false Christ and a worthless Gospel.

Remove the Sabbath from either the Moral law or from the teaching of the Gospels for the church, and the very formula by which all are saved, breaks down into Gentile confusion and error.

There is no such thing as a Sunday righteousness from Christ. Nor is there a non-Sabbath righteousness imputed to anyone.

The NC doctrine of the Sabbath, as lived and taught by Christ, is part of the very Gospel that saves us. Christ’s Righteousness contains his perfect Sabbath obedience. Those that deny this theological fact have denied the Gospel and repudiated the mechanics of salvation.

I repeat, Jesus perfect Sabbath keeping; both the OC kind for the Jews, and the very different NC version for the church, is credited to our account as perfect Sabbath obedience and righteousness, by faith.

All those that want to be protected from the guilt and wrath of the law must embrace, by faith, 100% of Christ’s Righteousness. To ignore, marginalize, or repudiate Christ’s perfect Sabbath righteousness, thinking there is no Sabbath law, or that it has been changed to Sunday, have committed eternal suicide. A 90% coverage of Christ’s Righteousness is the same as zero.

Beware. There are many false Christ’s, with their false Gospels and invalid Sabbaths.

Laodicea Shocked

There is a correct Sabbath for the last church to understand. It is not Sunday, nor is what the OC minded SDA’s teach. Thus, the 7th day Gospel Sabbath will condemn every denomination for teaching a false Gospel and a worthless, incompetent, and very wrong religion.

The genuine Gospel Sabbath will shock and divide the Laodicean church, exposing the status quo as worthless deception and myth. The preaching of the true Gospel, accompanied by the correct Sabbath, will prove that organized religion has been very wrong all these years, and that all must repent and embrace Gospel Reform before it is too late.

Many today, are just like the 1st century Jews, closing their eyes and covering their ears in order to protect their false views. They are too proud to repent.

But this is a required part of eschatology.

Those that are following the true Sheppard, will repent of their many false doctrines as Jesus commands, and separate from those that refuse to admit their errors and are intent on denying their guilt.

The Sabbath Divides

The NT teaches that the preaching of the Gospel, which is also linked in the NT with the REFORMED Sabbath of Jesus, caused great division within the religious and civil community whenever it was preached.

In fact, Jesus was first and foremost a divider, before he called the church to Gospel unity. He divided the religious community- on purpose, exposing the leaders as incompetent, hypocritical, and wrong.

Division was part of his Gospel tactics, even as he used his controversial and very different Sabbath doctrine to separate those who would follow his teachings and those that would not.

Jesus used his new teaching about the Sabbath to underscore, explain, and re-enforce his Gospel. He used the Sabbath to preach, teach, and demonstrate this new paradigm shift whereby all were going to be priests. Thus all could now enjoy a very different kind of Sabbath, one that complimented the Gospel as well as acknowledged the authority of Jesus as Lord of all, even the New Covenant Sabbath.

Luke 12:51 “Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;

John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.

John 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.

The preaching of the Gospel Sabbath by Jesus caused DIVISION. This will always be the case. Whenever the genuine Gospel is preached, there will be push back from organized religion and evil people.

Paul & the Sabbath

Moreover, when Paul preached the Gospel, he too associated it with the 7th day, NC Sabbath, and division resulted, as well as a riot.

The Jews went ballistic at the Gospel preaching of Paul on the Sabbath. The enemies of the Gospel went to work to attack this new Jewish based faith that was being promoted to the Gentiles on the Sabbath. Here was a larger echo of the first clashes between Jesus and the Jews that took place on the Sabbath.

Here is another round of OC Sabbath versus the NC Sabbath. Except this time the Gentiles were stuck in the middle of this religious debate. And Paul was winning…

Acts 13:44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.

Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.

Here is the NC Sabbath in action. Here is the Gospel. The legalistic Jews rejected both, but the Gentiles rejoiced in the Gospel on the NC Sabbath. Many were saved on this famous Sabbath day.

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 13:49 And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region.

Note that Paul, on the Sabbath, preached the “Word of the Lord” to the Gentiles. This was no accident. Rather, Paul was using the NC Sabbath just as Jesus had instructed. This is a fundamental point of the NC Sabbath. The preaching of the Gospel, as well as the resultant “rejoicing.”

Note also that Paul did not teach the Gentiles the OC Sabbath. That is, that they could not cook on the Sabbath or do any work, or walk a long distance, etc., etc. No. He preaches the Gospel to them on the Sabbath, without all the OC rules and regulations. Why? Because the NC Sabbath is not like the OC Sabbath.

Paul preached to a wide range of people, which included Roman soldiers, and merchants, as well as slaves and slave owners. He told them all to go back to their homes and do whatever they had to do. He did not start teaching them that they must change their station in life so that they could embrace and observe the Sabbath. He said the opposite.

Paul never taught this SDA view that all must fight against their employers or owners in order to gain Sabbath privileges, as if they were OC Jews. No, no, no. Listen to Paul and understand:

1Cor. 7:17 Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk. And so I direct in all the churches.

1Cor. 7:18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.

1Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

1Cor. 7:20 Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.

1Cor. 7:21 ¶ Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that.

1Cor. 7:22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord’s freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ’s slave.

1Cor. 7:23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.

1Cor. 7:24 Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called.

Thus the Word of the Lord, meaning Jesus Gospel, was “spread through the whole region.” The Gentiles rejoiced in their salvation—on the Sabbath. They “glorified” the Gospel and many were saved. But there was no hint that anyone should make any dramatic changes in their life’s work or station in order to observe the OC Sabbath. Thus proving the SDA’s very wrong in their view of the Sabbath.

1Cor. 7:24 Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called.

Just as Jesus’ reformed Sabbath stirred up the locals and caused division, so too with Paul. The Jews were horrified at Paul’s Sabbath breaking just as they were with Jesus’ same views and behavior. Persecution results.

Acts 13:50 But the Jews incited the devout women of prominence and the leading men of the city, and instigated a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district.

Acts 13:51 But they shook off the dust of their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium.

Acts 13:52 And the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

The next Sabbath, in another town, they did it again, preaching the Gospel on the NC Sabbath as directed by Jesus. But once again, the champions of the OC Sabbath attacked Paul’s Gospel and his NC Sabbath, trying their best to stop this new and controversial Jewish religion from spreading.

Acts 14:1 In Iconium they entered the synagogue of the Jews together, and spoke in such a manner that a large number of people believed, both of Jews and of Greeks.

Acts 14:2 But the Jews who disbelieved stirred up the minds of the Gentiles and embittered them against the brethren.

Acts 14:3 Therefore they spent a long time there speaking boldly with reliance upon the Lord, who was testifying to the word of His grace, granting that signs and wonders be done by their hands.

Acts 14:4 But the people of the city were divided; and some sided with the Jews, and some with the apostles.

Acts 14:5 And when an attempt was made by both the Gentiles and the Jews with their rulers, to mistreat and to stone them,

Acts 14:6 they became aware of it and fled to the cities of Lycaonia, Lystra and Derbe, and the surrounding region;

Acts 14:7 and there they continued to preach the gospel.

So it is not just in the Gospels that we see the Gospel Sabbath in action. Paul understood the NC Sabbath and used it to promote and explain the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Great debate and division resulted as the OC and NC clashed against one another in full view of the public.

Those who think Paul was against the Sabbath have failed to understand that he is only against the OC Sabbath, just like Jesus. He embraced the NC Sabbath and used it to promote the Gospel, even as understood that the Christian Faith was 100% Jewish. Thus Paul is a champion of the NC Sabbath, even as he is an enemy of the OC, non-working version that has been abolished.

Bob 2 said: BTW Are you and Des the only ones purporting this theory?

Tom said: When the Gospel is correctly preached, there is always amazement and surprise. Why? Because it seems so new, different, and impossible.

Most view God in a very opposite manner from the actual teachings of Jesus, even as they also view the Sabbath very differently, and incorrectly.

The Gospel is so counter-intuitive from what we think, that the truth shocks the mind when presented. It goes against the very fundamentals of all those talking heads that claim to speak for God and Christ, thus causing confusion and debate immediately.

The Gospel Sabbath is part of this package. It is so very different from what every Laodicean church teaches, including the SDA’s, that it is certain to cause great debate and confusion. In fact, it is so new, that the SDA’s have never heard or even imagined such a Sabbath doctrine! So they will be the first to be stunned and caught flatfooted, and they will be the first denomination required to repent and embrace Gospel and Sabbath reform.

At this point, very few realize how wrong their doctrines have become. Which is why the truth seems impossible and very strange to their deformed and confused ears.

Thus when the genuine Gospel is preached the cry is raised: “Who else teaches this?” “On whose authority are these NEW doctrines taught?”

Such a standard reaction is exactly what took place in 1888. The leaders rejected a new and improved understanding about the Gospel because it did not fit with their traditions.

Ha! If only people could read the NT without the typical brainwashing that goes along with it from their blind and wretched religious leaders. But alas, what we all know about the Gospel Story comes from those that were not seeking for truth, but promoting their various traditions.

Church history is clear that those in charge of religion always get it wrong. Which is why the Jews killed Christ and attacked the church. And why every organized religion today that claims to follow Christ are doing no such thing. A quick look at their view of the Sabbath proves this point, showing that their claims to truth are only delusions. Their doctrines are worthless drivel and blasphemy.

So the teaching about the NC Sabbath comes directly from the NT. It does not come from any particular denomination. While it was supposed to come from the SDA’s, they bungled their opportunity. Thus all are condemned and all must repent as directed by the pre-advent Judgment of the church, which is the Laodicean Message.

The emergence of the Gospel Sabbath is an “amazing” and ironic development. It raises many profound questions for all to “debate,” even as this doctrine is anchored firmly in the Gospels for all to see. Its authority is impeccable and beyond question for any that respects the Word and the teachings of Jesus.

Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him.”

The Gospel does not come from organized religion, the masses, or from an unnamed source. It starts with the Words of Jesus. Then it expanded to a handful of his disciples, who promoted this new teaching to others. This same pattern will apply today.

The truth about the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath will not come from any church committee. Not from the Sunday keeping churches or the legalistic and incompetent SDA’s. Truth only comes from individuals that understand the Gospel and the Word, which is why they can speak with such authority.

History proves that religious organizations are incompetent to understand Gospel truth, which is why every organized church in Laodicea is judged to be wretched and blind, doomed if they do not repent.

The New Wine of the Gospel cannot be mixed with false and stale traditions, proclaimed by those that do not know the teachings of Jesus. Whenever such a distorted Gospel is embraced, the church becomes wretched and blind, useless to heaven.

The Gospel takes special care and handling. It is the reason why the church exists. Whenever it is unveiled, it overturns the status quo of organized religion and calls into question the authority and the teachings of those in control.

Thus the genuine Gospel will seem new, if not very wrong and impossible to those who have been misled. The Gospel is the opposite of what all have been taught to expect, and thus it causes trouble and schism.

But those that understand the teaching of Jesus, are not fearful of embracing something new. No. They understand that this is the point of the NT. What is new is much better.

Matt. 9:17 “Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved.”

Matt. 13:52 And Jesus said to them, “Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings out of his treasure things new and old.”

2Cor. 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Gal. 6:15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Col. 3:10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him —

How fitting that there is a NEW Sabbath for the church to accompany the good news of the Gospel. Those that are destined for Eternal life will understand this new Sabbath and rejoice in the “true knowledge” of the NC Sabbath. Those that don’t, will grumble and blaspheme as they try to defend their false Gospel and false Sabbath.

Bob 2 said: When studying the Word, it is best to test the Scriptures by presenting it and determining the logic and reasonableness of it.

Tom said: The Word is not based on logic or reason. Rather, it is revelation that is the basis for truth. We do not test the Word, it tests us. Those that refuse to read it correctly, choosing to twist the scriptures to fit their traditions, are only fooling themselves.

The words of Jesus are clear for those that want to know truth. Anyone that is “ashamed” of Jesus Sabbath reforms, as well as his other teachings, has forfeited Eternal life. It is a pretty simple concept to understand.

Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

The Gospel makes no sense to the fallen human mind, even as it is impossible to understand without the aid of the Holy Sprit. Refuse to embrace the clear and repeated teachings of Jesus about the NC Sabbath, or anything else, and Eternal Life is forfeited.

John 8:47 “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”

John 14:10 “Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

John 15:7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

John 17:8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.

Those pastors and church leaders that refuse the correct Gospel and reject the Gospel Sabbath of Jesus are not Christians, much less saved. They do not understand Jesus or God. Even though they claim to be serving Christ, they are only pretending. Their theology is based on their paycheck as well as many worthless traditions.

Shame on all these wicked pastors and priests. They are the blind, leading the blind. Their doctrines do NOT “agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

1Tim. 6:3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,

1Tim. 6:4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions,

1Tim. 6:5 and constant friction between amen of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

There is only one Christ, one Gospel, and one Gospel Sabbath for the church. Thus at the end of time, the true church is called to REPENT and separate from the religious chaos of Laodicea.

2Cor. 6:14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

2Cor. 6:15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?

2Cor. 6:16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
“I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM;
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

2Cor. 6:17 “Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE,” says the Lord.
“AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN;
And I will welcome you.

At the end of time, before the Tribulation, there will be a separation between those that “agree” with the Gospel teachings of Jesus and those that are only pretending. There will be great debate and division in the last church, even as a new brand of Christianity emerges from the present confusion and corruption.

Rev. 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

It is time for the final reformation to take place within the church. It is time for the 4th Angels Message to be understood and developed by those in the Adventist Community. The Tribulation is near, and so too is the final Gospel Reformation that will precede it.

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Last edited by tom_norris (03-27-10 4:11 pm)

tom_norris · 04-09-11 7:00 pm

James said: Hi Tom I really appreciate you taking time to answer all these questions. I have read several times in your answers to questions on the mark of the beast that religious persecution will not happen until the close of probation. Now I want to ask you to clarify some things for me please. I was born and raised an SDA.

Tom said: You are very welcome James. Adventist Reform is here to help educate and inform Adventists. I too was born and raised an SDA, so I understand your questions and concerns.

As for the Mark of the Beast, this is not a clear-cut point as many SDA’s assume. In fact, Ellen White admitted that there is more to understand about such things.

"The mark of the beast is exactly what it has been proclaimed to be. Not all in regard to this matter is yet understood, nor will it be understood until the unrolling of the scroll. Ellen White, 6T 17.

While the SDA’s were certain that Sunday was wrong, and the 7th day correct, Ellen White cautioned that they still did not have all the answers about eschatology, nor would they until some time in the future.

"God will give additional light, and old truths will be recovered and replaced in the framework of truth; and wherever the laborers go, they will triumph... every ray of light received is to be communicated to others." RH Extra, Dec. 23, 1890.

"The question has been asked me, ‘Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?’ I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth. WE HAVE ONLY THE GLIMMERINGS OF THE RAYS OF THE LIGHT THAT IS YET TO COME TO US." [Ellen White, Selected Messages Book I, p. 401 - June 3, 1890]

All should understand that Adventism is a work in progress. This is why the Three Angels Messages are a progressive paradigm that unfolds more truth as time goes on. It is also why there is another Adventist Message, the 4th Angels Message, which will complete the Advent Movement.

Dan. 12:4 “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=769

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … essage.htm

James said: I have been indoctrinated with a lot of the error that you and others speak about. I praise God that He led me to a website about Dr. Ford and what happened at Glacier View, I have read Dr. Ford's book on the Gospel and have really been searching and studying the Word in the past few months. I admit I have a LOT to unlearn and even more to learn so please bear with me.

Tom said: Good for you to understand that there is much error in SDA theology. You were also correct to realize that Dr. Ford teaches Gospel truth. Here are some further resources for your study.

Dr. Ford Interview by Tom Norris
http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … /intro.cfm

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=240

Adventist Reform Forum discussions

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=11

James said: One thing I have learned is that the ONLY way to interpret the Bible is with the Bible. (Isaiah 28:10) And ALL your answers MUST be given with CLEAR Biblical support otherwise it's just opinion.

Tom said: The SDA’s do not understand how to interpret the Bible. They have invented a dishonest and trite proof texting method that promotes a superficial and self-serving view of doctrine. This is a far cry from the Protestant Hermeneutic, which requires all passage to first be viewed in their original context in order to correctly understand the author’s intent.

Beware trying to understand Gospel eschatology or doctrine through this childish SDA method of linking different texts together. It will not work. This is not honest hermeneutics, but cultic and lazy manipulation of the Word.

James said: Sorry for rambling but here is my main concern. Matthew 24 paints a very somber picture Jesus himself states that:

Matt. 24:9-13 -“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

You say that the Gospel will be preached during a peaceful time but that doesn't sound very peaceful to me.

Tom said: First off, this passage you quoted speaks about the “end of the age” and the final Tribulation. This is a period when it is too late for the preaching of the Gospel. Probation has closed and the world is in chaos. So the chronology should not be overlooked. So this is not a description of pre-Tribulation events, but post Trib.

When trying to understand eschatology, it is important to view all the passages that speak to the topic under consideration. In other words, one should not form a conclusion based on a lone passage, or a string of passages, at the expense of other passages, which indicate something else.

The NT provides some very clear teaching about how the world will look just BEFORE the Tribulation strikes. In fact, Paul clearly declares that the world will have reached a condition of “peace and safety” just before the Tribulation.

1Th. 5:1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.

1Th. 5:2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

1Th. 5:3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

1Th. 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

Thus the NT teaches that there will be a world consensus that peace and security has been achieved. THIS is one of the great signs of the coming of the Tribulation. (Which means that the world today is not about to enter the Tribulation, even though it might at times appear otherwise. Christians are to trust the Word, not the newspaper.)

Consequently it is a great error for anyone to think that war in the Middle East, plague, or persecution, much less other threats such as terrorism, natural disaster, or even economic troubles signal the Tribulation. They do not.

In fact, the opposite is the case. When the world seems to be making great progress to stop war, defeat Terrorism, and raise the standard of living, -and when this apparent and observable achievement is celebrated; THEN the Tribulation will strike. This is what the NT teaches. But the SDA’s teach something very different and very wrong.

This means that there must be, and will be, peace in the Middle East before the Tribulation can begin. Thus to pray for the “peace of Jerusalem,” is to pray for the start of Tribulation and the Second Coming which follows.

Psa. 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem:
“May they prosper who love you.

Here is a great and empirical sign that the Tribulation is about to strike. Peace and safety in the Middle East, including the apparent defeat of Terrorism, is the sign to leave the cities and take shelter. Not Sunday laws as the SDA’s teach.

Peace and Safety are the opposite of Religious Persecution. So it is time for the Adventist Community to repent of their immature views and embrace genuine, 21st century, Gospel eschatology.

James said: You also use the quote "As it was in the days of Noah" but I think we need to remember that while it is true that Noah was not harmed while preaching to the antediluvian world there was still all types of violent chaos going on around him. That was God’s reason for destroying the people in the first place.

Tom said: Paul’s view of eschatology originates from the teachings of Christ. His view that peace and safety is a prerequisite for the Tribulation is from Christ, who makes it clear that the final Tribulation will come at a time when all is well. Thus it is a great surprise. People are busy with the cares and pleasures of life and few are paying attention to Gospel Eschatology.

Matt. 24:37 “For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

Matt. 24:38 “For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

Luke 17:26 “And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:

Luke 17:27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

While there is no doubt that the pre-flood world was wicked, violent, and very irreligious, they were also too busy having a great life to bother Noah. (The same goes for Sodom. Lot was a free, rich, and great man in Sodom. He was not treated badly, much less persecuted or exiled.)

There is no record that Noah was ever persecuted or that his Message of warning was in any way censored or silenced. In fact, Noah preached many years, even as he built his large craft of salvation in full view of the world.

2Pet. 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

2Pet. 2:5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Note that Noah was called a preacher of Righteousness. He was not a martyr who was persecuted for his faith. He freely and publicly preached to the people without harm or persecution, and then he went into the ark, of his own free will, to wait for the great tribulation of water that would destroy the world.

When Jesus says, repeatedly, that that the last days will be “just like” the story of Noah, he means, among other things, that the Gospel, at the end of time, will be preached freely to the world, without persecution or censorship. There were no riots at the ark, nor was there any persecution or censorship during this pre flood period. So too at the end of time.

In other words, when probation closes, all is peaceful and normal. The Gospel has been clearly and freely preached to all. The skies are clear and sunny and the world is full of hope and prosperity, as well as peace. It is great to be alive.

However, 7 days later- things change. It is only when the rain starts falling, that the world understands that Noah was correct. But it is too late. Likewise. Only after the West has been suddenly attacked and “laid waste” will they too understand. But it is also too late.

Those, like the SDA’s, that teach there will be religious persecution and the repudiation of Free Speech before the end of probation are very wrong. There will be no such thing, much less a National Sunday law. The NT does not teach this absurd error, and no one should be so stupid today as to embrace this 19th century error.

However, once probation closes, the Tribulation will take place. Democracy will vanish and so too capitalism and the rights of all people. All hell will break loose as the world realizes their doom. Gone are the normal pursuits of life, including those associated with money and marriage. What is the point of anyone getting rich or married as the world self-destructs? The party is over.

Rev. 18:21 Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.

Rev. 18:22 “And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer;

Rev. 18:23 and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery.

The NT even teaches that the electrical grid will go down, (see v 23), which spells doom for Babylon, which is code for the United States. Civilization, as we know it, is over forever. So too Capitalism, Democracy, and Religious Freedom. America will be QUICKLY “laid waste”, becoming a 3rd world nation overnight for all to see. And no one will be able to help.

Rev. 18:9 “And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning,

Rev. 18:10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

Rev. 18:11 “And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more —

Rev. 18:14 “The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them.

Rev. 18:15 “The merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning,

Rev. 18:16 saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and

Rev. 18:17 for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance,

Rev. 18:18 and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’

Rev. 18:19 “And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!’

Thus it is a sudden and devastating surprise attack, during a time of peace, brings down the West and starts the great Tribulation. NOT SUNDAY LAWS. Let all SDA’s forget this unbiblical view of eschatology. Sunday laws have NOTHING to do with the end of the world or the Gospel.

James said: So when the Jesus says "As it was in the days of Noah" He is not just referring to the "surprise" of his second coming but also to the sheer wickedness of the human race before his second coming.

Tom said: Jesus is drawing a parallel of the end of the world with the ancient flood story. And thus wickedness is also included. However, because there was absolutely no persecution of Noah prior to the Flood, (regardless of their great wickedness), there can also be no persecution of the church on the eve of the final Tribulation.

Matt. 24:14 “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Like Noah, the church will be able to freely preach the Gospel without persecution or interference at the end of time. In fact, they do it so successfully that the church is energized and prepared for the final Tribulation, which will be full of persecution, as Marshall Law is declared, and the rights of men evaporate by executive order.

Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

Rev. 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

The SDA’s are full of error about many things, including their views about Sunday laws, which conflict with the teaching of Jesus and Paul, as well as the rest of the Bible.

Who is correct? Jesus or the SDA’s? Who has the authority and the truth on this point? Not the SDA’s. They must repent of their incorrect eschatology, which claims that there will be Sabbath persecution prior to the Tribulation. They are dead wrong.

James said: You also referenced Sodom and Gomorrah again we must remember WHY God destroyed the city.

Tom said: While both Noah’s world and Sodom were sinful beyond belief, this fact changes nothing. Where is the persecution of God’s people in the Sodom Story? Like Noah, Lot was never persecuted, much less over Sunday laws. In fact, he was not in danger from the people of Sodom, not did he want to leave the city.

Why try to spin the story in such a way as to defend the errors of the SDA’s? This is not the purpose of Bible study. It is truth we want; only Gospel truth.

In fact, when one reads Rev 18, a description of the end of the world, there is no reference to Sunday laws starting the Tribulation, as the SDA’s teach. Rather, the passage shows that a surprise attack, complete with fire, smoke, and great devastation is the cause.

Rev. 18:8 “For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.

Rev. 18:9 “And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning,

Rev. 18:10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

James said: I’m writing all this to say that it is possible you are right that there will be no “religious” persecution leading up to and during the preaching of the Gospel to the whole world, but what the Lord describes sounds like a definite “time of trouble” to me. It is all the BEGINNING of the birth pains.

Tom said: The NT is clear that the final Tribulation will come as a surprise to the world. This is because peace and safety will be declared just prior to the end of the world. (How can religious persecution fit with peace and safety? It can’t. These are opposing concepts.)

Such wonderful developments will mislead those not paying attention to Gospel Eschatology. Many will be fooled by world progress, and thus refuse to believe Gospel Eschatology. These will not take the proper action to survive the Tribulation. Most will remain unprepared for what is about to happen.

How does the final Tribulation start?

A surprise attack starts the Tribulation; then civil and religious freedoms will be removed, paving the way for persecution and plagues and the final devastation of the world. So I am not saying there will be no persecution at the end of time, but only AFTER the Tribulation starts. After probation has terminated. Not before, as the SDA’s teach.

James said: So it may not be all the “Sunday Persecution” Adventist are so obsessed with but it still doesn’t sound a like a walk in the park.

Tom said: First off, the SDA’s do not understand the Sabbath doctrine correctly, much less this idea about them being persecuted in the future for not embracing Sunday as the Sabbath. So here is their first problem, which must be addressed. They have the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath.

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

Second, prior to the Tribulation, life will be a “walk in the park” for many. People will be busy living their lives, with plenty of food and drink as well as hope and opportunity. They will be building (as in construction) and prospering, with commerce and capitalism leading the way.

At this time, there is absolutely no Sunday laws, much less religious persecution, famine, war or plague in the West, including in the Middle East. Freedom and Democracy has triumphed, even as capitalism has made the world rich.

The modern dream of mankind to outlaw war and reach a tangible state of Peace and Safety in the world will have been seemingly achieved. THIS is when the Tribulation strikes!

Matt. 24:37 “For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

Matt. 24:38 “For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

Matt. 24:39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Luke 17:28 “It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building;

Luke 17:29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

Luke 17:30 “It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

Luke 17:31 “On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back.

It is time for all SDA’s, (as well as all others), to better understand what the NT teaches about the end of the world. This is the area of their expertise and it is shameful that they have become so dull.

The NT teaches that Christians should be “alert” in order to understand how the end will take place. This means they must keep studying the Word, and world events, so that they will be ready for the Second Coming.

Luke 21:36 “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

The Adventists came into existence specifically because of their unique emphasis on eschatology. Even though no denominations at that time supported their views, over time, they all changed their minds, embracing what they once scorned as error.

As a result, the Adventists have already contributed to a much better understanding about the Second Coming and how the world will end. In fact, what all denominations teach today about the Second Coming, that it is pre-millennial and literal, is derived from 19th century Adventist theology, even though many do not acknowledge or understand such church history.

However, who today, in the 21st century, would be satisfied with only a 19th century understanding of science, medicine, transportation or education? No one. So why would anyone today be content with a 19th century view of theology or anything else?

Can you imagine if we were all limited to the knowledge and progress of the 19th century? As if a line were drawn in the sands of time, preventing the human race from going forward. There would be no antibiotics, air-conditioning, or computers, much less Jet Airliners, Television, and comfortable cars, etc.

Life would be very different and much more difficult from what has developed, complete with a much shorter life span and many great inconveniences that we cannot even imagine today. While correct eschatology teaches that the last great Empire, metaphorically known as Babylon, will be reduced to 3rd world status just before the Second Coming, this is something that takes place after the Time of Trouble, not before.

Just think about it? Why would anyone today try and limit our understanding of the New Testament to the 19th century? This not only defies common sense, but such a policy will certainly stop the progression of truth and keep the church from better understanding how Gospel eschatology will really unfold in the last days.

Dan. 12:4 “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

So there can be no such policy as censorship in the church, much less the lack of freedom to think and study about such things. Knowledge is progressive and thus the search for Gospel truth must never be inhibited, prohibited, or stopped.

Shame on the SDA’s for pretending that they have all the truth. Shame on them for persecuting and exiling those, like Dr. Ford, who disagreed with their incorrect views.

Shame on them for refusing to allow freedom of speech and a freedom of the press within the SDA church. Such policies are not Gospel based, but “Beast Based” and very wrong. The Adventists have far more error then truth, and this point about Sunday laws starting the Tribulation only underscores this sad fact.

Matt. 13:52 And Jesus said to them, “Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings out of his treasure things new and old.”

It is a great mistake for any Christian to think that all doctrinal truth has been discovered, and thus there is no need for further study or insight from the Word. This is the mistake the Jews made, and so too the SDA’s.

Rom. 10:2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

Those who pretend to have all doctrinal truth, like the zealous SDA’s, are making an obvious mistake. They are great deceivers and enemies of Christ, and all should be warned of such wolves that are not searching for more Gospel truth, but for ways to defend error.

This is not what the NT teaches. The Christian is to be filled with the “increasing knowledge” of the Gospel so that they may have the necessary spiritual understanding to please the Lord.

Col. 1:9 For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,

Col. 1:10 so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

All should agree that Gospel Truth is progressive; -especially eschatology, and that it is wrong to pretend that whatever doctrines were developed in the past are free from error and must be defended by censorship and force. This is madness from the mind of Satan. Which is why the Laodicean Message is clear that the last church is blind and wretchedly wrong about the Gospel and eschatology.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Although the modern SDA’s claim they are free from all doctrinal error and thus have no need to better understand the Gospel or eschatology, such hubris is nothing more than absurd and outrageous blasphemy that refutes the evidence. The SDA’s are full of error, gross mismanagement, and great corruption.

At this point in their history, the delusional SDA’s have become enemies of Christ and the Gospel. They do not seek more truth, but for ways to defend their many errors and false doctrines. No one should trust anything they teach, because they are no longer honest seekers for truth. They have gone corrupt, just like the Jews they so closely emulate.

2Cor. 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.

2Cor. 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

2Cor. 11:15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

But understand this; the Bible teaches that there will be a final Tribulation in our modern age. The end of the world is closer than ever before. Thus it is imperative for all Laodiceans to repent of their false views and embrace correct Gospel eschatology.

Mark 13:19 “For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.

Matt. 24:19 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

Matt. 24:20 “But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Matt. 24:22 “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

If ever there was a time when the church, meaning all denominations, needs to understand how the world will end—it is now. The Adventists were supposed to lead the way, but they have fallen down for all to see. They no longer have any credible Gospel eschatology, nor do they seem to care about such things.

The final events have never been closer. But the church is not prepared in the slightest. This is a dangerous error that must be corrected.

Luke 12:32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.

Luke 12:33 “Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys.

Luke 12:34 “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Luke 12:35 “Be dressed in readiness, and keep your lamps lit.

Luke 12:36 “Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks.

Luke 12:37 “Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them.

Luke 12:38 “Whether he comes in the second watch, or even in the third, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves.

Luke 12:39 “But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have allowed his house to be broken into.

Luke 12:40 “You too, be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour that you do not expect.”

Today, few know that the one of the major signs of the Tribulation is PEACE and SAFETY. Most all think the opposite is the case, with war, natural disasters, and economic turmoil pointing the way.

Any that think this way, like all SDA’s, will not be prepared for the real thing. They have been fooled; their views of eschatology are worthless and wrong, and so too most everything else that they teach. Which is why they need to repent and embrace Adventist Reform.

Here are some links for further study:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ay-Law.htm

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=230

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1045379969

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1132526979

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=768

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … bation.htm

I wish you much success in your Gospel studies.

Tom Norris for All Experts.com & Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 04-16-11 4:24 pm

Today, many think that America, like ancient Rome, is in danger of slowly becoming a 3rd world Nation. Some even claim that “Twilight” has already come to America, even as others fear that our growing debt will be our doom.

Is this correct eschatology? Will the US go broke and slowly fade away…?

Not all Nations fall the same way, nor does prophecy teach that America will slowly die over many years, which is what happened to Rome.

In fact, Rome became divided, long before it fell, complete with another Capital called New Rome, which is better known as Constantinople to the East.

Does this look like the US? There were only two capitals for a short period during the Civil War.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/rome … ofrome.htm

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/maps … tntnpl.htm

Furthermore, there is great debate about the date for the fall of Rome. Gibbon “dated the Fall to September 4, A.D. 476 when a so-called barbarian named Odoacer (a Germanic leader in the Roman army), deposed the last western Roman emperor, Romulus Augustulus, who was probably partly of Germanic ancestry.”

The earlier Sack of Rome in 410 is also popular as a date for Rome's fall. Some say the Roman Empire never fell. But assuming it did, why? There are adherents to single factors, but more people think Rome fell because of a combination of such factors as Christianity, decadence, and military problems. Even the rise of Islam is proposed as the reason for Rome's fall, by some who think the Fall of Rome happened at Constantinople in the 15th Century.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/fall … easons.htm

Some date the Fall of Rome very late; to 1453 when the Ottoman Turks took Byzantium (Constantinople).

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/fall … ofRome.htm

The point here is to understand that Rome fell over a very long period of time. In fact, it took so long, that scholars couldn’t agree if it fell in the early 400’s or the mid 1400’s.

By contrast, the US, like Babylon of old, will fall quickly; due to a stealthy and fatal attack from its enemies.

Rev. 18:10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

Rev. 18:17 for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance,

Rev. 18:19 “And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!’

Abe said: The USA to some extent was the new Rome but its duration at center stage was much shorter than the Rome of the ancient world.

Tom said: The US has NOT fallen, nor has it become a third world Nation. But that day will come. The question is when? And how?

Hub said: Revelation 13 indicates that America will yet play a leading part in end time events in making an "image to the beast" and in enforcing the "mark of the beast."

Tom said: While the SDA’s were correct to see the rise of America in prophecy, and that it mirrors the beast power of Rome, and will go bad; they are wrong about how they think America will fall.

This idea that Sunday laws will bring about the Time of Trouble and ruin America is absurd, laughable, and very wrong. This is not what the NT teaches about eschatology and the SDA’s had better get busy and correct their lame, 19th century views.
Elaine said: There have been many prognosticators during the two millennia of Christendom and most have been found wanting.

Tom said; Jesus and the apostles teach that all Christians, of every age, should be eschatologically “alert,” looking for the 2nd Coming.

So it is not wrong for anyone of any age, to look at world events and try to see how they could lead to the end of the world. Thus in every age, because the world is so evil, it appears that the end must be near.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 2:12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Matt. 24:42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

Luke 21:36 “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Here is a link to: A Brief History of the Apocalypse

http://www.abhota.info/end1.htm

Elaine said: Every generation believes that it has found the answer to the puzzles found in D&R.

Tom said: This is not true. There was very little eschatology in the church for hundreds and hundreds of years. The RCC does not promote eschatology, as they believe they are in charge of the Kingdom of God now. So they were not promoting any transition of power at the end of the age.

While there were many times when people thought the end of the world had arrived, like during the plague, or from war, most did not have access to either Daniel or Revelation, nor did they have any rational or credible view of eschatology. This took place much latter, which is why the Adventists came on the scene when they did.

But regardless, Jesus teaches that everyone, in any generation, is to remain on the alert for the end of the world.

Elaine said: But, rather than beginning with a specific date, the final date is determined, then returns to identify the exact time in order to arrive at the specific time period! Such chicanery is seen in magical tricks and there are always the gullible who are entranced by such ability.

Tom said: It is not fair or accurate to claim that eschatology is nothing but smoke and mirrors for the gullible. The Gospel Story is based on prophecy and culminates with eschatology, even as we all experience our own personal eschatology in death. Remove this part of the story and nothing makes sense. Nor would there be any point to the Christian Faith.

Did you know that Sir Isaac Newton, one of the greatest minds of all time, focused on Daniel and Revelation. Did you know that he came close to following Millers calculation in Daniel, except he used a later starting date than 457, and thus he arrived at 2060 as the end of the world, instead of 1844.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton's_religious_views

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/arti … -newton.do

A recalculation has moved up the date to 2013.

In "Temple at the Center of Time: Newton's Bible Codex Deciphered and the Year 2012," by David Flynn, a book that has skyrocketed up the best-seller charts following its release this month, the author makes a correction to Isaac Newton's research, pointing to the year 2013 as "the time of the end."

Read more: Newton's end times calculation corrected!

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=75434#ixzz1Jie7MdWs

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=75434

So before there were any Adventists, serious people were trying to understand eschatology, even as many, like Luther, thought the end of the world had arrived thanks to the Muslims who were trying to capture Europe.

Elaine said: The Eschaton has been predicted many times, beginning in the NT when it was expected momentarily, extending through the centuries with many projected parousias and none have yet occurred. Crying "Wolf" too long ends in jaded hearers.

Tom said: It is the nature and point of eschatology to always seem near. If Jesus taught that the 2nd Coming was far, far, away, what would be the result? Nothing good.

Luke 12:43 “Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.

Luke 12:44 “Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

Luke 12:45 “But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;

Luke 12:46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

Luke 12:47 “And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,

So this is not about “crying wolf,” but about being “ready” and alert. It is far better to anticipate the Second Coming and be wrong about the date, than to ignore it and not be ready.

At the end of time, as knowledge is increased dramatically, eschatology will make more sense. And this is what is taking place today. We know far more about history and theology than ever before, and this accumulated knowledge will result in a more clear and credible understanding about how the world will really end.

As for the fate of America? Can we really understand how the Great Tribulation starts? Will its’ fall be like Rome, or is there another Nation that needs to be examined?

Answer: The fall of America will not be like Rome. Rather, it will be like the fall of Babylon. This is what the NT teaches.

Rev. 14:8 And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.”

Rev. 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

The fall of Babylon, a great world Empire, is closely related to the demise of the Western World, especially the US. Thus, by understanding how the real Empire of Babylon met its end, we can understand how the Great Tribulation will start and why.
Just as the mighty Babylon was surprised and destroyed by stealth, from the sudden attack of its enemies, so too the US.

Read Rev 18 and understand that the US will be hit by a massive, surprise attack from its enemies that hate the Jews. It will be sudden, unexpected, and devastating. So much so that all imports and exports are forever stopped, and the US will, overnight, be reduced to a 3rd world power, even as Marshall Law is declared.

This is the end of democracy and the Republic, as well as the end of Capitalism and the end of life as we know it. No doubt a large portion of the electrical gird will go down. Survival will become the order of the day.

Overnight, America will be devastated. The rest of the details need further study. But understand this. The US Government is preparing for this time. They know there is going to be a strike and thus Homeland Security is not only preparing for it, they will take over the Country after it happens and thus the US will be controlled by an unelected shadow government, which is already in place.

This is the beginning of the Tribulation and the end of the world. It will be much worse than what we think and few are even close to being mentally or physically prepared.

But the work of the Remnant church is to understand and prepare for this devastating event. This is what the SDA’s were supposed to be doing. How sad that they have become blind and rebellious, persecuting those like Dr. Ford who tried to help them understand the Gospel and eschatology.

Those so silly as to be looking for Sunday laws, have not only wasted their time, but they are not close to being ready for what is really going to take place. They do not understand Gospel eschatology, and unless they repent, they are doomed.

Furthermore, the NT teaches that few will be ready for the Tribulation. In fact, the NT teaches that this sudden strike is unexpected. Thus the Tribulation comes at a time when society is fully functional, even as peace and safety have apparently been achieved.

This also means that America is not going to slowly decline like Rome. No. It is destroyed at the height of its power and glory, just like Babylon. Quickly and suddenly, just like when Babylon fell. They were certain they were safe and secure behind their great walls, but they were wrong.

Let all pay careful attention to the study of Gospel eschatology.

1Th. 5:3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

Matt. 24:37 “For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

Matt. 24:38 “For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

Matt. 24:39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

This idea that just before the Tribulation, there will be troublous times, financial distress, famine, war, persecution, etc. is incorrect. The NT teaches the opposite. Like in the days of Noah or the example of Sodom, things are going on as usual, even as commerce and capitalism are doing great.

Then the end comes, as a shock, to those not paying attention to Gospel eschatology. And guess what? The SDA’s have fallen flat on their faces. Their once cutting edge views need serious revision and correction to be of any use. This is why there must be Adventist Reform. The present views of eschatology are absurd and worthless.

Luke 17:24 “For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day.

Luke 17:25 “But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

Luke 17:26 “And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:

Luke 17:27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Luke 17:28 “It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building;

Luke 17:29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

Luke 17:30 “It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

Luke 17:31 “On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back.

Luke 17:32 “Remember Lot’s wife.

Today, no church teaches a credible eschatology, much less the double-talking and dishonest SDA’s. Which is why none understand what is about to happen, nor are they prepared. It is the duty of all that embrace the Gospel to seriously prepare for the Tribulation, which is fast approaching.

Abe said: As to the USA role in prophecy that is debatable. Every great empire has come and gone some slower some faster than others.

Tom said: The rise of America was a miracle that stunned the world. The founding fathers were certain that they had divine providence on their side. With such an emerging view of world history, it was easy for the SDA’s to find the USA in prophecy.

However, at that time, when the young Republic was full of energy, growth, and ambition for greatness, it was not so easy for the SDA’s to promote their stunning view that America would repudiate democracy.

They had an unpopular message about Sunday persecution and the Mark of the Beast, which seemed very unpatriotic and fanciful. But as time went on, there was a great push for Sunday Sacredness. And this seeming fulfillment of SDA eschatology persuaded the Adventists, and others, (those that joined), that they were on the right track.

But today we can see that the US Government does have a plan in place to suspend the Constitution and declare Marshall Law, should disaster strike. The leaders are prepared, and when it happens, this fundamental point of the SDA’s will be correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?ti … ted_States

According to a report published Monday by the Washington Post, the Pentagon has developed its first ever war plans for operations within the continental United States, in which terrorist attacks would be used as the justification for imposing martial law on cities, regions or the entire country.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/aug20 … -a09.shtml

Sunday laws are not going to have anything to do with starting the Tribulation. This major error must be repudiated by all SDA's.

The point is this: NT prophecy shows that the last great Empire does not slowly fade away, like Rome. No. It is taken down by a surprise attack, when it is at the height of its power and glory. Like Babylon.

I repeat: America and the West, aka Babylon, does not fall over long ages, like Rome, but overnight, in a stunning and massive surprise attack that ends the Republic and starts the Tribulation. (What happens after the fall, needs further study).

Which means, those looking for a slow demise are going to get caught. They misunderstand how the world will really end because they are not paying attention to Gospel Eschatology. They are following the babble of those who live by sight, and not faith in Gospel Eschatology.

Abe said: As far as the "great Tribulation" that has already happened.

Tom said: This is an absurd and impossible view that refutes the clear teaching of the NT, as well as common sense. Anyone who thinks this way, does not understand Gospel Eschatology.

Try telling Homeland Security that the Great Tribulation has already started. You can save them a lot of time, money, and preparation, because this is what they are doing. They are preparing for an attack, as well as for plague, etc. There are great horrors, of epic proportion, in store for the human race. And this has not happened as yet.

Abe said: The Holocaust was the great tribulation and "if" America had any role in it, it was to help shorten that time of trouble and restore Israel to the Promised Land.

Tom said: How can the holocaust of the Jews be the same as the holocaust of the church and the end of the world? I do not deny that both WWI and WWII were horrible, but during the final Tribulation, things will be far worse for everyone, both Jew and Gentile.

The final Tribulation will be worse then anything that has ever happened in the history of the world. What don’t you understand about such a concept?

Mark 13:19 “For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.

Abe said: When looking at the prophecies of Scripture one should look at them as basically referring to Israel.

Tom said: The NT book of Revelation is prophecy for the CHURCH, and so too the Words of Jesus and the apostles about the end of the world.

Moreover, the church is now the Israel of God. A Holy Nation.
1Pet. 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Abe said: We are in the midst of the collapse and death of the USA as a world power only a fool cannot see that.

Tom said: Ha! That is what some people have been saying during every generation. But it never seems to work out and neither is the present garbage about doom and gloom.
NT eschatology clearly and repeatedly says that the Tribulation will come, as a surprise, during a time of peace, prosperity, and safety. Which means, things are not going to deteriorate before the appointed time.

Yes. The US will become a 3rd world Nation. But only AFTER a massive strike cripples the County and changes everything. Prior to that time, things will get better, (in the long term), and to such an extent that the world will acknowledges and rejoice as a paradigm shift from war to peace appears to take place. THEN the end will come.

1Th. 5:3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

Abe said: Let the present president be assonated and you will see a blood bath that will make the Civil War appear like a school picnic.

Tom said: Ha! I thought you said the Tribulation was already here? But now you say, if only such and such happens, then something greater than the Civil War will erupt?

So you make no sense. You admit that things are not as nearly bad as they will get one day. So how can you pretend that we are living in the great Tribulation today? Such a view makes no sense.

Moreover, do you think the US has never had a President assassinated? Lincoln was shot, but at the end of the Civil War, not at the beginning. But life went on anyway and so too the Republic. Later on, others where killed in office, like Mckinley and Kennedy, but the Nation went on.

So forget this nonsense about doom around the corner because of this or that reason. This is worthless, Gentile eschatology, where sight matters most. But Jewish/ Christian eschatology is not based on sight, but on having faith to follow God’s Word regardless of how things might appear at any point in time.
A true understanding of end times does not come from the newspapers or the doomsayers.

Abe said: Given your ridiculous constitution after this falls mid term election you will have a lame duck president checkmated by Congress. If that will not hasten the impending disaster well guess again.

Tom said: Ha! Before you slam the US for their poor fundamentals, consider the fact that they invented modern democracy. They also kept the world free for it to take hold. You should say thank you.

I live next to Washington DC. So I see all of this political propaganda, hand wringing, and such. Don’t confuse political spin for reality, much less with genuine eschatology. God is in charge, not the politicians or the talking heads. People, especially Christians, are saying the most absurd things, allowing themselves to be manipulated by those fighting for political power and control.

America will go down in flames, but only when God permits. I suggest that you and others pay close attention to the Word so you know what to look for.

When there are wars, and financial troubles, threats of plague, and safety seems far away; this is NOT, not, not a sign of the Tribulation.

The real sign for the great and final Tribulation is the opposite; world “peace and safety,” which includes prosperity and freedom.

THIS is the sign to take cover and get out of harms way.

It is time for Gospel Eschatology to be better understood. Is anyone listening?

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Eschatological Reform

bob_2 · 03-17-12 6:26 pm

Tom, are you still an Adventist. If so just your language alone should be enough to get you excommunicated.

tom_norris · 03-17-12 9:05 pm

Bob, the 19th century Adventist Pioneers did the best they could with the knowledge they had. But today, we have much more insight about the Bible and he world, as well as the benefit of hindsight.

So is understandable that they were naïve and wrong about many things and we should be thankful for what they got correct. We also need to open our eyes and understand things more clearly than did those of past generations.

Today, the church needs 21st century eschatology, not 19th. The errors of the past cannot be allowed to prevent the discovery of present truth. While the Millerites were correct to teach that there will be a great Time of Trouble just prior to the 2nd Coming, this SDA idea that Sunday laws will start this final Tribulation is not supported by the Bible.

If you want to see how the Time of Trouble will start, just read Rev 18 and understand that Babylon, which is symbol for US and the West, will be suddenly “laid waste.” There will be smoke and burning fire, and much grief.

This great destruction is not about Sunday law legislation being written and enacted by Congress, but about Washington DC, the center of metaphorical Babylon, being attacked and destroyed. THIS is what starts the great Tribulation that will end the world. THIS is 21st century eschatology.

Rev. 18:17 for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance,

Rev. 18:18 and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’

Rev. 18:19 “And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!’

Today, the US Government is preparing for the inevitable. They know it is not a matter of if, but when. Which is why there is a growing number of studies and reports explaining what the damage will look like, and how best to escape.

A recent (Nov 2011) FEMA study was just made public about Terrorism in Washington DC. It showed the effects of a small, 10-Kiloton nuclear device exploding downtown. The Capitol would not survive, and neither would democracy, as Marshall Law would rule the land.

See:

Government study predicts the fallout of a nuclear terrorist attack in D.C.
By Maggie Fazeli Fard/ Washington Post

The U.S. Capitol wouldn’t survive a nuclear attack in downtown D.C., a FEMA study found. (Jacquelyn Martin - AP)

What would happen if a 10-kiloton nuclear weapon exploded in downtown Washington?

A recent study conducted by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) analyzed the specific implications of nuking the intersection of 16th and K streets NW.

The key to the question, it seems, is the size of the bomb. Ten kilotons is considered “small” by nuclear weapon standards and would presumably leave survivors, according to the study.

Here’s a preview of what we can expect:

“The brilliant flash that can be seen for hundreds of miles can temporarily blind many of those who are outdoors even miles from a nuclear explosion. The explosion can turn several city blocks into rubble and may break glass over 10 miles away. Dust and debris may cloud the air for miles, and fallout that produces potentially lethal levels of radiation to those outdoors falls in the immediate area and up to 20 miles downwind.”

Within a half-mile radius of the detonation, called the “severe damage zone,” buildings would be destroyed, radiation would be high and the survival rate would be low. The White House, Capitol and Mall would be destroyed.

As little as three miles out, the impact would be less severe, including broken windows and minor injuries.
But the real disaster would be nuclear fallout, the result of radioactive dust poisoning many in the District, Northern Virginia and Maryland.

If it needs to be said, there is no silver lining in this scenario. A nuclear attack would “overwhelm” emergency response teams. Curiosity would lead people to flock to windows just as a blast wave shatters them, the study predicts. Fear would inspire people to flee the area, exposing them to dangerous radiation.

“Unfortunately, our instincts can be our own worst enemy,” the study says, noting that people should stay indoors and avoid driving.
Duck and cover — so reminiscent of the Cold War-era advice to get under a desk in the event of a nuclear attack — is the best advice there is.

Adventists for Tomorrow

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