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Tom text please:
If your point is true, why does Jesus teach that the NC Sabbath was made for all mankind, not just for the OC Jews?
If Mark 2:27, here is what John Gills says in his Exposition of the Whole Bible: \
the sabbath was made for man;
for his good, and not for his hurt; both for the good of his soul, that he might have an opportunity of attending divine worship, both in public and private; and for the good of his body, that he might have rest from his labour; and this was the end of the original institution and appointment of it; and therefore works of necessity are not forbidden on this day; such as are for the necessary comfort, support, and preservation of life; or otherwise it would be apparent, that the sabbath was not appointed for the good, but for the hurt of men. By "man", is not meant all mankind; for the sabbath was never appointed for all mankind, nor binding upon all; only the Jews, who are emphatically called "man",
Last edited by bob_2 (06-08-12 7:16 pm)
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Bob, you need to pay attention to what Jesus teaches. Not shop around to find someone who agrees with your views. No. You must go directly to Jesus, the head theologian of the Church, and think for yourself about what he teaches, - not allowing the Word to be contaminated by the views of others, regardless who they might be.
All must honestly seek to understand the meaning of Jesus words about the Sabbath and everything else.
What does Jesus teach about the NC Sabbath? That it was made only for the Jews? No. He said it was made for all humanity. This is what the text means, and this is what Holy Spirit seeks to convey. The passage is simple and clear for all to understand, and so too the one that follows, where Jesus takes authority over the Sabbath doctrine to protect and defend it.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Mark 2:27 N-AMS
BIB: διὰ τὸν ἄνθρωπον ἐγένετο καὶ
NAS: was made for man, and not man
KJV: was made for man, and not man
INT: on account of the man was made an
http://interlinearbible.org/mark/2-27.htm
http://biblelexicon.org/mark/2-27.htm
In fact, a correct way to read this passage is:
“The NC Sabbath was made for ALL MANKIND.”
This is what the original text is saying. Look it up and verify this fact. Then try and understand what Jesus means. Do not change the meaning or revise his words to fit your confusion. He is the teacher, all others only students.
Luke 6:39 And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
John Gill, Baptist Theologian
As for Gill’s view of the Sabbath, let’s take a look. He seems to be searching, even as he lacks clarity about the Gospel Sabbath. But he is correct about tithe. He does not support such a doctrine in the church.
JOHN GILL (1697–1771) English Baptist theologian
http://www.tlogical.net/biojohngill.htm
The Life and Thought of John Gill
http://evangelica.de/reviews/the-life-a … john-gill/
LIST OF TITHING OPPONENTS IN HISTORY
http://russkellyphd.blogspot.com/2010/0 … ghout.html
Comments on the Sabbath, by John Gill
http://members.toast.net/puritan/Articl … bbath1.htm
Gill said: the sabbath was made for man; for his good, and not for his hurt; both for the good of his soul, that he might have an opportunity of attending divine worship, both in public and private;
Tom said: If he means the OC Sabbath, he is wrong. That doctrine of the Sabbath was only for Jews, not for all mankind. But if he means the NC Sabbath of Christ, then he would be correct, for this is the Sabbath that was made for all mankind.
However, I note that he does not articulate which Sabbath Jesus is speaking about; the OC version, or the NC version? This lack of distinction is a great problem for any that attempt to understand Mark 2: 27.
Gill said: and for the good of his body, that he might have rest from his labour; and this was the end of the original institution and appointment of it; and therefore works of necessity are not forbidden on this day; such as are for the necessary comfort, support, and preservation of life; or otherwise it would be apparent, that the sabbath was not appointed for the good, but for the hurt of men.
Tom said: First off, a resting Sabbath is the OC doctrine of Moses, not what Jesus was teaching. So his definition is falling apart, even as he is misunderstands what Jesus is saying in this passage.
Second, this assumption that “works of necessity” are permitted under the OC Sabbath is false. The OC Sabbath allowed few comforts, and no fires or cooking, travel, etc. So this point is misleading and wrong.
The OC Sabbath was a stern taskmaster. It did hurt people; even as some were stoned to death for gathering sticks on the 7th day to keep them warn with fire. Such comforts were forbidden.
So I don’t know what Gill is trying to say, but whatever it is, it is not going to help you out of your Sabbath confusion, nor is it any defense for NCT.
Gill needs to reconsider what he thinks he knows about the Sabbath, because his double-talk about Mark 2 falls flat. All would benefit from taking a closer look at the 7th day, NC Sabbath of Christ that we are discussing. It will obviously be new, but so what? Truth is what matters, not tradition.
The Laodicean Church has never had the right view of the Gospel or the NC Sabbath, and it is time for all those that have contributed to this great rebellion against Christ to repent and get serious about Gospel theology.
All those who claim to be teachers of the Gospel, had better pick up their game, because the days of double-talk are over. It is time for those who are serious about following Christ, to do so.
Gill said: By "man", is not meant all mankind; for the sabbath was never appointed for all mankind, nor binding upon all; only the Jews, who are emphatically called "man",
Tom said: Here Gill shows his lack of knowledge by assuming that there is only one doctrine of the Sabbath. Many make this same mistake today. The SDA’s have also fallen into this trap.
Not only that, he is also willing to change the passage and deny what it so clearly teaches. Forcing the passage to fit his confused views instead of trying to understand that Jesus is teaching.
In other words, it is the NC Sabbath that is made by Christ for all mankind. Not the OC version of the 4th Commandment. Misunderstand this point, and little will make sense.
Gill has made a great mistake to assume that Jesus is speaking of the OC Sabbath, which is why he claims the text does not mean what it clearly says.
However, Jesus means what he says. The NC Sabbath is made for all mankind, just like the Gospel.
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Acts 17:30 “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
The Gospel Sabbath, like the Gospel itself, was made for all mankind. This amazing, 1st century doctrine from the Lord of the Sabbath underscores the “love for mankind” that God has for the human race, which has been saved by Christ on the basis of faith, not law.
Titus 3:4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds, which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Titus 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Titus 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
So Bob, all mankind, both Jew and Gentile, must go to Jesus and find the truth about the Sabbath. Everyone- must go directly to Christ’s Words and understand what he is teaching about the NC Gospel Sabbath. Which is a very different doctrine from the OC Sabbath of the Jews.
Let all give up their personal views and traditions, and go directly to Christ to learn his Reformed, active, 7th day, Sabbath. Those who sit at the feet of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, and learn from him, will understand the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath.
Mark 4:9 And He was saying, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, I think I'll let John Gill's word speak for themselves. I have not been able to find a New Covenant Sabbath, the Sabbath was not given to the Jews ancestors or forefathers, Deut 5:1-3, and the Law was only given until the Seed, Jesus came, Galatians 3:19. That sort of narrows down who the OC law was given to. The Sabbath is never commanded after the Seed came or went back to heaven.
Tom your problem as I look, google Reformed Sabbath, their ain't such a critter. I have asked you to supply where it is but you can't even find it, other than by your own assumptions. Jesus was under the OC during His life so he would speak of it, but only to show how the Pharisees had polluted it from God/Jesus original meaning in the Decalogue. He never said it would be part of the New Covenant or His Kingdom. He did say:
Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
If Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms, anything written of Him in them, they are completed. They were shadows of Him.
Note in Lev 23 that the Sabbath is listed as an APPOINTED FESTIVAL which would pass away at the Cross with all other Appointed Festivals.
Last edited by bob_2 (06-09-12 2:16 pm)
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Bob said: Tom, I think I'll let John Gill's word speak for themselves.
Tom replied: Bob, I will let Jesus’ words speak for themselves.
Those that ignore Christ’s words, are standing on the outside of the Kingdom of God. Are you sure this is what you want to do?
All must decide if they are going to follow Christ, or the many religious leaders that claim to speak for him. Thus all must choose between Christ and the traditions of men.
Bob said: I have not been able to find a New Covenant Sabbath, - the Sabbath was not given to the Jews ancestors or forefathers, Deut 5:1-3, and the Law was only given until the Seed, Jesus came, Galatians 3:19. That sort of narrows down who the OC law was given to.
Tom said: Do you really want to find the NC Sabbath? I think not. But if you do: Seek and you shall find.
Matt. 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Those who run from the Words of Christ, ignoring and denying what he teaches, will never be able to understand the NC.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
Moreover, the fundamentals of the NC Sabbath were given to the OC Priests. While most Jews had to obey the strict and punitive OC Sabbath, the Levites had an EXEMPTION from the rules of the 4th Commandment.
Here is the basis for the NC Sabbath of Christ, which is clearly taught in all four Gospels. Few know about this priestly Sabbath. But Jesus teaches this point in the Gospels, proving that many Christians know very little about what he teaches, especially about the Gospel Sabbath.
Bob said: The Sabbath is never commanded after the Seed came or went back to heaven.
Tom said: It is correct to say that the OC Sabbath is never commanded in the NC. However, this would not be true of the NC Sabbath that Jesus teaches over and over for those that follow him.
Jesus, the Lord of the NC Sabbath, does teach a Gospel Sabbath for the church. Those who deny this fact, are denying the genuine Christ and the Gospel Story. Jesus was killed because of his controversial Sabbath, which underscores that he did teach a Gospel Sabbath. The record is clear for those that want to read it.
Bob said: Tom your problem as I look; I Goggled Reformed Sabbath, their ain't such a critter.
Tom said: Ha! This is funny. Google is not an apostle, much less the Messiah. I suggest you look IN THE GOSPELS to find the 7th day, active, Sabbath of Christ. Go to the Lord of the Sabbath, not Google, to understand the active, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.
I Goggled “Gospel Sabbath” & “NC Sabbath.” Our discussion came up right away.
4th commandment in the NT?
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ent-NT.htm
Sabbath-rest - Hebrews 4:9
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … brew-4.htm
New Covenant Sabbath
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm
A Google search for “Reformed Sabbath” also turned up our discussion:
Reformed Sabbath
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … bath-1.htm
Sabbath Question
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … estion.htm
It is obvious that you have failed to properly search for the Gospel Sabbath in the NT, as well as online. NO wonder you can’t find it. You don’t really want to. Just like the Jews. They too could not understand what Christ was teaching or why. It baffled them.
Bob said: I have asked you to supply where it is but you can't even find it, other than by your own assumptions.
Tom said: Ha! You refuse to agree with Jesus about the NC Sabbath being made for all mankind. So how can you find what you deny exists?
While Jesus clearly teaches a NC Sabbath for those that follow him, (all mankind), you do not believe it. You claim there is no such doctrine, and that the Sabbath was only given to the Jews.
So no wonder you can’t find this doctrine. Your eyes are as tightly shut as were the 1st century Pharisees. They too could not see or understand the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath.
John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
John 9:36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”
John 9:37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.”
John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
This passage is about the NC Sabbath. The man born blind embraced the Lord of the Sabbath, even as he was given the ability to see clearly after many years of darkness.
What a pity that the religious leaders could not understand the Gospel or the NC Sabbath. While they claimed to see fine, Jesus declared them spiritually blind for refusing to embrace his reformed, NC Sabbath.
Those that fail to understand the Gospel Sabbath, have also misunderstood the Gospel, of which there is only one correct version. And this correct version includes the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ, which is not the same as the OC Sabbath of Moses.
Bob said: Jesus was under the OC during His life so he would speak of it, but only to show how the Pharisees had polluted it from God/Jesus original meaning in the Decalogue. He never said it would be part of the New Covenant or His Kingdom.
Tom said: This idea that Jesus came to teach the OC is utter nonsense. Jesus represents the NC, not the OC. If you continue to embrace such error, you will be locked out of the Kingdom of God. Anyone that thinks Jesus came to earth to proclaim the Law is lost. Jesus was a Gospel teacher and preacher, not a promoter of the OC, which he overturned and cursed.
Bob quoted Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Tom replied: The Sabbath is a memorial to Creation. It was not something that the suffering Messiah was supposed to fulfill. Which is why Jesus never claims to have fulfilled the Sabbath. There was no such prophecy in the OT.
Jesus makes it clear what part of the OC he is fulfilling. Just read the next few verses that you omitted. The Sabbath is not part of any such “fulfillment.”
Luke 24:45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
Luke 24:46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,
Luke 24:47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Jesus fulfilled the suffering Messiah prophecies. Thus it was his predicted death on the cross that was fulfilled, and so too the resurrection. The Sabbath was not part of any such prophecy or fulfillment.
Those who claim that Jesus “fulfilled” the Sabbath have closed their minds to the Gospel Story. They do not understand the scriptures correctly, nor do they care.
Bob stated: If Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms, anything written of Him in them, they are completed. They were shadows of Him.
Tom said: Jesus does not “fulfill anything ever written.” Nor did he fulfill the Sabbath, much less abolish it, so he can change it into an Every Day doctrine for the Sunday keeping church.
The early church never took such a view and neither has any church. This whole NCT premise that Jesus “fulfilled” the Sabbath is mythical and baseless theology. The Bible does not teach such a point and neither does the church.
Let all repudiate NCT, it is garbage.
Moreover, Jesus’ reformed Sabbath teachings represents the Law of Christ, not the Law of Moses. Jesus does not teach that he fulfilled the Sabbath, but rather, that he transformed it into an active 7th day, where all believers have an exemption from the rules against work on the 4th Commandment.
This is the law of Christ, aka the Lord of the NC Sabbath. Those who reject what Jesus teaches, will themselves be rejected by Christ in the Judgment Day.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Bob said: Note in Lev 23 that the Sabbath is listed as an APPOINTED FESTIVAL which would pass away at the Cross with all other Appointed Festivals.
Tom said: There is no question that the OC Sabbath was a great and holy festival of the Jews. It was both a ceremonial and moral law, even though the Jews had no such distinction between these two categories.
Lev. 23:3 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings.
Note that the Sabbath is a “complete rest,” which refutes what Gill was trying to say. There was very little that could be done by the people on the Sabbath.
Note also that the Priests had a different doctrine of the Sabbath. They had an EXEMPTION from not working on the Sabbath. Many people read the OT and forget this critical fact. There were TWO different doctrines of the Sabbath in the OC. One for the people and another for the Priests.
I repeat: There were TWO different doctrines of the 7th day Sabbath in Judaism. Fail to understand this fact, and you will never be able to comprehend the NC Sabbath of Christ. For it is built on this distinction.
Furthermore, your assumption that the Sabbath, which is a doctrine about Creation, would pass away after the cross is an assumption that Christ does not share. The Cross did not change the original creation story; it only brought further clarity by claiming that Christ, as the Son of God, took part in the Creation of the world. Jesus made the original Sabbath.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Such a fact explains why Jesus was so protective of the Sabbath. He was part of the Creation Story. He made the original Sabbath Day. Long before there was a Jew.
So no wonder this creation doctrine was so important to him. No wonder he claimed to be the Lord of the Sabbath, three times in the NT. No wonder that the four Gospels are full of Jesus promoting and defending his Gospel Sabbath.
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Luke 6:5 And He was saying to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Moreover, this assumption that all OC ceremonies and festivals cannot exist after the cross, - is false. The church has a number of such doctrines, including the Sabbath.
The Passover was a great OC festival of the Jews. Was it totally abolished; removed from the church after the cross? No. It was reformed by Christ into the Eucharist and made the most sacred of all Christian ceremonies.
Likewise, Jesus also reformed the OC Sabbath, with its forced rest, and very strict rules against work, into a NC doctrine where work was allowed and activity promoted.
Christ changed the Sabbath into a doctrine where the law was subordinated to Faith in Christ, even as the original Creation Story was upheld. Thus this ancient weekly ceremony lives on in the church, where the Gospel is featured, not law.
In conclusion, there can be no tithing or OC Sabbath keeping in the church.
Those who follow Christ are Priests of God, where all are equal in the church.
The Priesthood of Believers destroys tithe, even as it does the same thing to the OC Sabbath. There can be neither in the NC.
Because we are Priests, all have an exemption against the claims of the 4th Commandment through the Word of Christ. We now live under the Law of Christ, with its’ reformed, priestly, NC Sabbath.
Let all rejoice that the 7th day Gospel Sabbath has been found. It has been in the Gospels all the time. Only a blind person could miss it.
John 7:17 “If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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That,s an interesting presentation, Tom, but what are we to make of Romans 14 where Paul, who was taught by God and not man, says that "some keep one day or another and some keep every day alike"? Are we to understand that these believers he speaks of were baptized into the church body and forgot that they were to keep the seventh day Sabbath? Why did not Paul remind them of the error of omitting of the Sabbath and it's importance of continually keeping it under the New Covenant Gospel Sabbath law of Christ?
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Tom, there is not and no need to feel the desire of a Sabbath day. If Rest is the Gospel's ultimate goal, spiritually Jesus is our Rest, to solve the struggle to be forgiven. To insist on a spot on a man made calendar after the inspired Word said the Sabbath shadow points to the Reality of Christ. Christ was not saying something new about the Sabbath, in fact he used the example of David and his companions doing something in the Temple, yet the Pharisees taught David could do what he did with no consequence. There is no new Reformed Sabbath, so one could work on that day. It gave what was the ultimate goal of the Christian, True Rest .Why, Tom to you persist in wanting a limiting day, when under the better promises of the New Covenant we can have REST whenever we want. I'm not talking an every day Rest Day. That is insulting to the core of the doctrine. That Jesus can forgive sin all the way back to Adam, which has staying power, it is no longer limited to a 24 hour period that is now obsolete. A shadow of the reality, Jesus.
SOMEONE GREATER THAN THE TEMPLE WAS THERE, JESUS. Matthew 12:6 The Son of God.
Last edited by bob_2 (06-15-12 12:33 am)
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Not only do we have scriptural evidence that Christians are not bound to any special day, we do not have evidence that the weekly cycle has not been broken. The Sabbath started at sundown at Sinai for the Israelites. As they moved about the Earth who knows what happened especially when the International date line was established in the Pacific Ocean. Now New Zealand and Australia start the Sabbath hours instead of Sinai. All those from New Zealand to Sinai who observe Sabbath are on the wrong day. They should be at the tail end of the 24 hour cycle and instead are at the beginning. Go figure. ellen observed the wrong day while in Australia and her angel never said a word, feature that.
In this century all we have to look at is Samoa to see the turmoil it has caused the SDAs when they changed the date line from the West side of Samoa to the East side. That was done because the Samoans are now trading more with the Chinese.
Some claim the Israelites used the lunar calender and that would sometimes throw the weekly cycle off of the seven day cycle. This is a good possibility. Anyway I don't have to worry about that anymore. My Christian commands are to love Jesus and my fellow man. That takes care of 99% of what Gods expects me to do. I don't have to worry about the 613 laws the Israelites were under. I am under Grace.
There is very good evidence that the changing of calenders in earlier centuries caused the weekly cycle to change. Jews even admit this has happened and they may not be on the same days as the Israelites were.
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Cadge said: That’s an interesting presentation, Tom, but what are we to make of Romans 14 where Paul, who was taught by God and not man, says that "some keep one day or another and some keep every day alike"?
Tom said: First off, the question is not whether the 7th day Gospel Sabbath is “interesting,” but is it correct theology?
I say, YES to both!
The reason why the 7th day NC Sabbath is so surprising to the SDA Community today, - is because they thought they had the “true” Sabbath all these years. But they have never understood the Gospel or the Two Covenants correctly, much less the NC Sabbath.
The SDA’s have NEVER fully understood the Protestant doctrine of the Priesthood of all Believers. Nor do the want to. They have chosen to be stupid about these critical Gospel points that are so important to understand.
To make matters worse, when they did get into these critical details of Gospel theology, they shut down the discussion, exiled those who criticized the leaders, and then covered it all up so that no one would even know the details of the 1888 debate. And when the cover up was discovered in 1979, the leaders covered it up again.
Wow! Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face? If the SDA leaders had not been so dishonest about the 1888 history, the SDA’s today would not be so disoriented and stupid about the Sabbath, the IJ, or tithe. They would understand their past errors and correct them.
The SDA’s have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Gospel and the Sabbath, as well as their own historical development. Until they decide to become honest about NC doctrine and church history, they will never understand anything correctly. They will remain blind and naked for all to see.
How pathetic are the SDA’s today when they can’t even understand the 7th day doctrine of the Sabbath correctly? Their leaders are so incompetent and cowardly that they can’t even have a public debate about what they teach. This is not how the Pioneers behaved. They welcomed public discussion and challenge to their views, even as they thought they had all the answers. But now they all run from all discussion, knowing they will lose the debate every time.
Today truth has evaporated for the SDA’s; which explains why they no longer conduct any public debates or discussions. Nor do they allow free speech or thought within the denomination Cults don’t like to let people know they are teaching garbage. Their ability to get new members is based on deception and double-talk. So they must run from anyone with the facts.
Now that the real Sabbath doctrine is emerging, the SDA’s are stunned. And so too the arrogant critics that acted as if they had all the answers, when they did not even have the right questions.
In fact, the critic’s answer to the SDA error of the OC Sabbath was to embrace the error of NCT. Thus many former SDA’s just went from one set of errors to another set. So the critics are not as smart as they assumed; they too must repent for their Sabbath errors.
So yes, the NC Sabbath in very “interesting,” even amazing and surprising. It will humble all who take the time to understand the Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
Like all SDA’s, I had no idea there was such a doctrine, nor did I think that tithing was false. So growing up SDA is much like being a mushroom, where one is kept in the dark for the benefit of those who run the farm. No SDA has a correct view of Gospel doctrine, and the Sabbath proves this point for all to see, (as does their error about tithe).
The same can be said of every other denomination in the world as well. None have the genuine NC Sabbath of Christ.
While the SDA’s wasted years fighting over the errors of the IJ, they need to also understand that at no time have they had a correct doctrine of the NC Sabbath. Never. And if any of the SDA leaders think they can come online and defend their OC Sabbath, or refute the NC Sabbath of Adventist Reform, I dare them to try. They will lose badly, which is why they have all run away.
SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836
Only some in the NCT crowd has had the nerve to try and defend their view of the Sabbath. But they have failed to come close to defending their confusion, just like the IJ crowd, of which they were a part for so long.
NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
Second, this idea that Paul is greater than Christ, or that he has any intention of changing or refuting the Gospel doctrines of Christ, is absurd.
Those that come from cults have been taught a proof texting hermeneutic that is designed to pit one passage against another, all in order to overpower the opposing side. This “battle of the texts” is not the correct way to read the NT.
Paul is not attacking Jesus view of the Sabbath by what he said to the Romans, Colossians or Corinthians, etc. Paul is in complete harmony with the Gospel of Christ, which means there must be another way to understand his comments. Paul supports what Jesus teaches in all things.
Third, Paul was often very hard to understand by his contemporaries and all that have read him over the years. So it takes some work to understand the context and what Paul is saying. Many fail to do this, choosing instead to take his words out of context in order to help them support false doctrine. Legions do this, especially when it comes to the Sabbath.
2Pet. 3:15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
2Pet. 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Fourth, Paul does not give a discourse on the Sabbath, as Jesus did so many times in the Gospels. So why do people pretend he does?
Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —
Col. 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Why do so many pretend that there is no NC Sabbath for the church, and then quote Paul saying there obviously is? Here in Colossians, Paul admits there is a Sabbath, and that no one is to judge ones view of it. How can anyone pretend that Paul is saying there is no Sabbath? This is not what the passage is saying.
Furthermore, just because a doctrine is a shadow of Christ, that does not invalidate it. The Eucharist is a shadow doctrine that is meant to remind the church of Christ’s passion, teachings, and return. While Christ is the “substance” of this NC doctrine, it is still doctrine for the church. So too with the NC Sabbath.
Fifth: Paul’s remark in Romans 14 must be understood in the general context that a) He acknowledges the Moral law as well as the NC Sabbath, b) defends the NC Sabbath, and c) argues against the Judaizers who would promote OC Sabbath keeping.
More specifically, the Christians are not to judge their weak or misinformed fellow Christians.
Rom. 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
Take a look at the context of Romans 14:5 and see that the context is “how to behave properly.” The context is not a detailed discussion about the Sabbath. If you want that, you must go to the Gospels where Jesus in on the record many times explaining his NC Sabbath doctrine.
Paul wants the church to put on Christ, not the Law. Neither does he want those who are new Christians to be harshly judged and condemned for their misunderstanding of doctrine about food or Holy days, which were the subject of attack from the Judaizers.
Paul teaches that each member reports directly to Christ, and thus no one is to step in between and judge anyone about such minor points. The Christian faith is not about food or holy days, but Christ and his Gospel teachings.
Rom. 13:13 Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.
Rom. 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.
Rom. 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
Rom. 14:2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
Rom. 14:3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
Rom. 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Rom. 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom. 14:6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
Rom. 14:7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
Rom. 14:8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.
Rom. 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Rom. 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
Rom. 14:11 For it is written,
“AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL 1GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.”
Rom. 14:12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
Rom. 14:13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this — not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way.
In other words, if a Christian wants to abstain from eating food offered to idols, because he thinks it is an insult to Jesus, then he is free to do this, even if the more mature understand that such food is not wrong to eat because there are no such thing as idols.
1Cor. 8:7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Cor. 8:9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
Even though some new members were wrong about how they viewed food offered from Pagan Temples, they should not be condemned for their sincere, but incorrect theology. They are to be supported by the church because they are children of God, saved by the Gospel.
1Cor. 8:10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols?
1Cor. 8:11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.
1Cor. 8:12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
The same goes for their view of the Sabbath or other Holy Days, such as the Passover. Those who had accepted Christ were not to be condemned for their imperfect views of the Sabbath or even other religious days. Nor were they to be judged by others if their Sabbath behavior may appear strange or not fully correct.
During this time, the Judaizers were no doubt condemning any Christian who failed to stop working on the Sabbath. This group judged the Gentile Christians very harshly, which created the famous Galatian debate between Peter and Paul. Not only because they were not eating Kosher, but also because they did not keep the Sabbath very well.
Paul puts a stop to such micromanagement and condemnation.
Rom. 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom. 14:6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
Note that Paul is not saying there is no Sabbath for the church, rather he is admitting that there are different views about how Christians can observe the NC Sabbath, - as well as deal with food laws.
While some obviously view the NC Sabbath as being much like all other days, others think the Sabbath is “above” the other days of the week, and thus there are different views of how to behave on the 7th day.
Paul does not try to settle this debate, much less pass judgment on who is right. In fact, he teaches that all such doctrine must be “observed” for the glory of Christ, not for the Law.
Furthermore, Christians CAN view the Sabbath teachings of Jesus as making all days alike. Thus, some can be convinced that there is nothing wrong with treating the 7th day as a workday, just like the other 6 days. This is what Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, teaches.
When it comes to work, the NC Sabbath no longer prohibits it. Thus one could conclude that every day of the week is similar in this regard.
Rom. 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
However, some Christians may also view the Sabbath as a special day, even though Christ has abolished the OC rules against work. While they may not be Judaizers, which is wrong, they think the Sabbath is still a special day, and thus they act accordingly and make it a special day.
Such a person is free to “regard one day above another” because the Sabbath does have special worship components that are not featured in the rest of the weekly days, even as this day has a long pedigree that supports the Creation Story and has the support of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath.
Either way, there is a NC Sabbath for the church.
Some viewed it as a regular day, even though they worshiped on that day, while other Christians viewed it as a special day, elevated over the rest of the week. Paul is fine with either view.
But he would not be fine with Paul if anyone that wanted to follow the OC Sabbath laws where it was a sin to work on the Sabbath. Such Judaizing would be the same as circumcision, and would amount to falling from grace.
Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
Gal. 2:15 “We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;
Gal. 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of 1the Law no flesh will be justified.
Romans 14: 5 is important to understand as the church goes forward to repent and embrace the NC Sabbath of Christ. It shows that there are some different ways for the believers to process and relate to the Gospel Sabbath.
Today, we have no debates about food offered to idols, but there is still much debate taking place about the Sabbath. How would Rom 14: 5 apply to this discussion about the NC Sabbath?
Some would view the Sabbath as being like the rest of the week; meaning that there were no prohibitions from any behavior on the Sabbath. So this group could go to church to worship God on the 7th day, and yet, still go to the Ballgame in the afternoon, or watch TV or paint the house. No one is to condemn them or accuse them of sin.
Rom. 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
Another group views the Sabbath as being a special day, where they intend to study and worship, as well as rest and reflect on the Gospel. They may even fast on this day. They would not be comfortable cheering for their team at the ballgame.
So long as they are not falling into OC thinking about it being sinful to work on the Sabbath, they are free to treat the 7th day as if it is above the other days. After all, what other day stands for the creation of the world? And what other day has been so connected to Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath?
Rom. 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
Both views of the NC Sabbath are to co-exist in the church. Thus there is liberal and a conservative view of the 7th day NC Sabbath.
Rom. 14:6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
Rom. 14:13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this — not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way.
Nothing that Paul writes should be construed to mean that there is no Sabbath for the church. Paul is teaching the opposite in Rom 14, even as he calls for freedom for all to figure out how they should relate to the NC Sabbath.
6th: The apostle John calls the NC Sabbath the Lord’s Day. Proving that the apostles did have a special day, even as this is what Jesus teaches over and over in the Gospels for all to see.
But even so, when it comes to the rules and restrictions against work on the Sabbath, these rules have been removed and thus it is correct to say that all 7 days are alike.
Christians are free to work on any day of the week, even as it is correct for other Christians to think the 7th day is special and stands above the others, regardless if they can work on that day or not. Either view works for Paul, even as we will all have to explain to Christ how we viewed his Gospel Sabbath.
Rom. 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
Cadge said: Are we to understand that these believers he speaks of were baptized into the church body and forgot that they were to keep the seventh day Sabbath?
Tom said: First off the Jewish Christians would never forget something like the Sabbath, which is why the Jewish apostle John speaks about the Lord’s day. After all, Christ declared himself to be the Lord of the Sabbath in front of John many times, so this is the source of this term. But even so, the Judaizers viewed the Sabbath very differently from Paul or the Gentile believers.
So the early church did teach about the Sabbath, and Romans 14 is part of such teachings. After the apostles died, the church went on to codify a doctrine of the Sabbath, proving that there was such a tradition from the start of the church. The fact that they misunderstood it, and even selected the wrong day, is beside the point. There has always been a weekly Sabbath for the church, even as there still is today.
All that have been baptized into the church, - have been taught about a weekly Sabbath. This is a fact of history that cannot be refuted.
The church has always observed a weekly Sabbath, even to this very day. The fact it has been wrong for most of the time is beside the point. There is a NC Sabbath for the church and it is ready to take the church by surprise, forcing all that are honest of heart to repent and embrace Gospel Reform.
Cadge said: Why did not Paul remind them of the error of omitting of the Sabbath and it's importance of continually keeping it under the New Covenant Gospel Sabbath law of Christ?
Tom said: The problem was not that the Roman church was “omitting the Sabbath.” No. The problem was that some were harshly judging those who did not agree with their views about the NC Sabbath.
Rom. 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Rom. 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom. 14:6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
This was not debate over the existence of the NC Sabbath, nor was it a Sunday versus Saturday situation. No. It was an internal debate within the Gentile church about how to view the 7th day, NC Sabbath of Christ. THIS is the context of Romans 14:5.
Furthermore, there is to be no OC Sabbath keeping in the church. THIS is why Paul does not “remind them” to keep the Sabbath. There is no OC Sabbath to keep in the NC. Let this point sink deep into your mind.
As for the NC Sabbath, Paul is teaching that it can be viewed a number of ways by Christians, even as no one is to judge anyone’s NC Sabbath behavior. Such things belong in the OC, not the NC.
Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —
Bob said: Tom, there is not and no need to feel the desire of a Sabbath day.
Tom said: First off, you are not being responsive to the points raised. The fact that you repudiate any form of Sabbath that you don’t like is meaningless. You have failed to show that Jesus was not promoting a NC Sabbath in the Gospels.
Furthermore, you have failed to show that Jesus is not Lord of the NC Sabbath; much less that Paul has claimed there is no Sabbath. You have failed to prove your case for NCT.
In fact, you are on the record as claiming that Jesus is wrong when he teaches that the NC Sabbath was made for all mankind, not just the Jews. You don’t believe this Gospel point.
But you are wrong, not Christ. Which is why you must repent if you want Eternal Life. Christ does not save those who disbelieve what he teaches, much less those who fight against him and try to lead people astray from Gospel truth.
Your Sabbath views are the opposite of what Christ teaches. Why should anyone run away from what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath and follow you?
It is Jesus who reformed, defended, and promoted the NC Sabbath. In fact, he was so into the NC Sabbath, that he took the strange title of Lord of the Sabbath. Why? If there is “no need” for the Sabbath in the NC, then why does Jesus teach otherwise?
While it is clear that you see no need for any Sabbath doctrine in the church, Jesus has a different view. And so too Paul and the rest of the NT. Those who are smart will follow Christ, not the many fools that teach the opposite of what he teaches.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Bob said: If Rest is the Gospel's ultimate goal, spiritually Jesus is our Rest, to solve the struggle to be forgiven.
Tom said: First off, who said “rest” is the “ultimate goal” of the Gospel? Is heaven a place of rocking chairs for the tired? Is Eternal Life about sitting on clouds that look like pillows?
For the record, Jesus rarely used the word rest. Look it up and see for yourself. In fact, he never teaches that “rest” is the point of the Gospel, so why make things up? How can a word barley used in the NT, be the meaning of the Gospel? It cannot.
Those who follow Christ are not looking for rest, but for an active life in the Kingdom of God. They are looking for new bodies, which will never get tired, much less sick.
Phil. 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
Phil. 3:21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
In addition, there is no “struggle to be forgiven.” While there may be a struggle to repent and believe the Gospel, the forgiveness of sin in not something that we do, much less something they we can even control. It is the free gift of God, given to those who repent and humble themselves through the Gospel.
Matt. 9:2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.”
Luke 5:20 Seeing their faith, He said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.”
Forgiveness of sin is done in a moment. It is very easy.
I suggest that you repent of your many false views of the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath and take advantage of how easy it is to obtain forgiveness and Eternal Life.
At this point, you are not saved or forgiven because you will not repent of your false views. You refuse to embrace the genuine Christ of the Gospels, and thus you remain dead in sin, unsaved and very confused. Sad.
Bob said: To insist on a spot on a man made calendar after the inspired Word said the Sabbath shadow points to the Reality of Christ.
Tom said: God made the world and invented the 7 day weekly cycle, which is not based on anything in nature, like months or years.
Furthermore, not only did God make the 7th day Special, when he sent his Son to earth, Jesus also confirmed the importance of the 7th day, even claiming authority over it.
For anyone to pretend that Christ was not a champion of the NC Sabbath, or that Paul has removed the Sabbath is absurd. Such ideas are heretical and absurd, unsupported by the NT.
Bob said: Christ was not saying something new about the Sabbath, in fact he used the example of David and his companions doing something in the Temple, yet the Pharisees taught David could do what he did with no consequence.
Tom said: Wrong. You and Christ have opposing views of most everything. This should concern you, but I see it does not. You live to refute Christ, arguing endlessly for myths and false doctrine. Sad.
Christ’s view of the Sabbath and the Priesthood and the Temple was very new, even shocking to the Jews. So your spin is against the facts.
Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority!
Luke 5:38 “But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.
Acts 17:19 And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is which you are proclaiming?
Until you can learn to be honest with the “New” Covenant Gospel Record, you will never understand much of anything, nor will you be saved. Why? Because the words of Christ, which you do not understand or follow, will condemn you.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Bob said: There is no new Reformed Sabbath, so one could work on that day. It gave what was the ultimate goal of the Christian, True Rest.
Tom said: Your own words condemn you. There is no such phrase in the entire Bible as “true Rest.” You are just making things up to defend your false views. Pathetic.
Any that refute what Christ so clearly teaches, are enemies of Christ. If there is no NC Sabbath, then there is also no new Priesthood or Temple. Nor is there any forgiveness of sin or subordination of law to faith. What kind of Christian do you claim to be? One that does not follow Christ?
John 8:26 “I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.”
John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
Bob said: Why, Tom do you persist in wanting a limiting day, when under the better promises of the New Covenant we can have REST whenever we want.
Tom said: First off, it is the OC Sabbath that is associated with rest. The NC Sabbath is all about good works, NOT REST. Even in the OC, the priestly Sabbath of the Levites was all about work, not rest. This is what the NC Sabbath is based upon.
Jesus NEVER teaches that the NC Sabbath is about rest. No. He teaches that it is about work, which is the opposite of rest.
Thus the SDA’s are making fools of themselves with their non-working Sabbath, which they claim all must follow or be lost. Ha! The SDA’s are lost if they don’t repent and change their absurd and false view of the Sabbath.
Second, it is Jesus who made a big deal out of the 7th day Sabbath. He named himself the Lord of the Sabbath, even as he kept pushing his reformed Sabbath forward, driving the Jewish leaders into a murderous rage.
If you don’t like the Sabbath, and it is clear that you hate it, then you can’t follow the genuine Christ, because he loved the Sabbath, as the Gospel record shows. This means you are following a fraud, - a mythical, worthless Jesus. Good luck with that!
Bsheilds said: Not only do we have scriptural evidence that Christians are not bound to any special day, we do not have evidence that the weekly cycle has not been broken.
Tom said: While Christians are not bound to the OC, 7th day Sabbath of Moses, they are bound to the follow the Law of Christ, which includes what he teaches about the NC Sabbath.
Moreover, this lame excuse that mankind has lost the weekly cycle is silly and wrong. Jesus, the 1st century Lord of the Sabbath, knew exactly what day of the week was the Sabbath.
So we don’t have to go back to the beginning of time to establish anything about the weekly cycle. The Jews took care to watch over the calendar, and Jesus agreed with their view of which day was the 7th.
Nice try.
Bsheilds said: ellen observed the wrong day while in Australia and her angel never said a word, feature that.
Tom said: While Ellen correctly understood what day was the 7th, like everyone else, she did not fully understand the NC Sabbath. This is a problem that must be corrected.
Bsheilds said: Anyway I don't have to worry about that anymore. My Christian commands are to love Jesus and my fellow man. That takes care of 99% of what Gods expects me to do. I don't have to worry about the 613 laws the Israelites were under. I am under Grace.
Tom said: One is either saved or they are not. No one will receive Eternal life with only a 99% approval rating. It takes 100% perfect righteousness to be saved. You are not even close to 50%, much less 99%.
Matt. 5:20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Unless you repent, and stop fighting against the teachings of Christ, you will remain at a 0% level of salvation. Which is to say,--- you are doomed.
John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.”
While no Christian should worry about the OC Law, for they do not live under it, all Christians must take care to understand the Law of Christ, which contains more than just the command to love everyone. Those who “love Christ,” will follow his teachings, not fight them.
Jesus NC Sabbath teaching is important for the church. Otherwise he would not have repeated it so often in the Gospels.
John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:19 “After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also.
John 14:20 “In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
Those who refuse to follow the Gospel teachings of Christ are not under grace, but under condemnation. While many lazy and foolish Christians think they are saved, it is a delusion for legions.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
In conclusion, there is a NC Sabbath for the church, as taught by Christ, and supported by the rest of the NT. While many claim that Paul and Christ are at odds over the Sabbath, this is just another myth that is easily disproved by the facts.
Today, it is time for the Adventist Community to wake up, repent, and understand the Gospel, which includes a very different doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, what about the SDAs in New Zealand and West that start the Sabbath hours a day early? Is that okay with Jesus and His supposed NC Sabbath? Did you even give it a thought as you glossed over my previous post? Shouldn't the Sabbath start first at Sinai since God gave it to the Israelites at that place? Why would the legalistic SDAs allow it to start the cycle in New Zealand when it should start 5 or 6 hours after the SDAs close it in California?
Maybe Hubert would like to take a stab as to why.
Tom said: While Christians are not bound to the OC, 7th day Sabbath of Moses, they are bound to the follow the Law of Christ, which includes what he teaches about the NC Sabbath.
What does He teach about it Tom? I have read it over and over and all I see is that not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law until...... That said, what did He change while here on the Earth? Was there ever a law against healing on the Israelite Sabbath? Where does it tell us that the Sabbath is now an unholy day and all Gentiles are bound to observe it as such? Why have you never tried to answer these types of Questions? Why do you continue to ramble on almost endlessly about everything else but what we need to know in order to keep the unholy day?
Moreover, this lame excuse that mankind has lost the weekly cycle is silly and wrong. Jesus, the 1st century Lord of the Sabbath, knew exactly what day of the week was the Sabbath.
Yes Jesus established the 7th day. Was it under the Luner calender which the Jews used, we know it wasn't the same calender we now use because ours came after Jesus. When they changed calenders were days lost or added? Jewish scholars admit days have been changed. They don't know if they are keeping the correct day. They don't care either. As long as the flock is kept dumb and happy what is the difference. If I were you I wouldn't pass all this off lightly as you have demonstrated in your last post. It may bite you in the rear. Many SDAs are upset as they have discovered they could possibly be observing the wrong day. No wonder we as Christians are not asked to observe days. No one know which day they would observe anyway.
Tom said: One is either saved or they are not. No one will receive Eternal life with only a 99% approval rating. It takes 100% perfect righteousness to be saved. You are not even close to 50%, much less 99%.
If you will observe my post you will find out I was not writing about approval ratings, I was writing about what God expects me to do as a Christian. Your statement only proves that you do not take our posts seriously nor do you read them with with any regard as to what we write. Thank the Good Lord you won't have any part in the judgment.
Unless you repent, and stop fighting against the teachings of Christ, you will remain at a 0% level of salvation. Which is to say,--- you are doomed.
That is an awful statement to make. As to repenting, I have ask full repentance. Thank the Lord that it isn't what we do that saves us, it is what the Lord has done for us. I can tell that you have your idea of salvation based on works just as do the SDAs. And you ask us to go along with your teachings? I think not, I opt out.
John 3:16
New Living Translation (NLT)
16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
Jn 5:24 “I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.
Why didn't Paul, Peter, John, Timothy or any of the other Bible writers ever say anything about a NC Sabbath?
Last edited by bshields (06-18-12 9:40 am)
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Bsheilds said: Tom, what about the SDAs in New Zealand and West that start the Sabbath hours a day early? Is that okay with Jesus and His supposed NC Sabbath?
Tom said: Salvation is of the Jews. They were obsessed with the Sabbath, and I think they worked out a way to make sure this doctrine could be observed around the world. Besides, there is no dispute about the days of the week by science or historians. It is a non-issue. The 7--day weekly cycle is ancient and continuous.
Bsheilds said: Did you even give it a thought as you glossed over my previous post? Shouldn't the Sabbath start first at Sinai since God gave it to the Israelites at that place? Why would the legalistic SDAs allow it to start in New Zealand when it should come after SDAs in the USA close it?
Tom said: the 7-day weekly cycle was the same in the Roman world for both Jews and Gentiles. Nor has it changed, which is why there are no disputes today about which day is the 7th day or the 1st day.
The Jews were not the only ones who had a 7-day weekly cycle, so too did other nations and cultures.
However, such a discussion is worthless and diversionary. It is for those who think like the FLAT EARTH SOCIETY. Those people might listen to your absurd views about the days of the week and the Sabbath. However, your points are not worthy of an educated Gospel discussion.
http://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/hlwc/why_seven.htm
http://www.webexhibits.org/calendars/we … hor-origin
http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
Tom said: While Christians are not bound to the OC, 7th day Sabbath of Moses, they are bound to the follow the Law of Christ, which includes what he teaches about the NC Sabbath.
Bsheilds replied: What does He teach about it Tom?
Tom said: The Gospels are full of Jesus Sabbath teaching. Have you never read these many passages? Do you not know that the NC Sabbath is featured in the beginning of Christ’s ministry? (See Mark) Even as the rest of the Gospels also contain this teaching.
Don’t you know what he teaches? You claim to follow him. But yet, you never seem to know what he teaches? And even now you are pretending that Christ has nothing special to say about the Sabbath.
The NCT crowd is just as blind as was the IJ crowd. Both camps refused to deal honestly with the Word. It is past time for all to stop playing games with the Gospel and get serious about what Jesus teaches and what he does not.
This is the great sin of Laodicea; they are blind to the Gospel, even as they think they understand it perfectly. They are deluded, and so too is anyone that thinks Jesus did not teach a NC Sabbath for his followers, the church. The Gospel record is self-evident, and so too the history of the church.
Jesus & the Sabbath
First off, Jesus teaches that his Gospel doctrine of the Sabbath is for all mankind, both Jew and Gentile.
Second, he teaches that he is the Lord of the Reformed Sabbath, having the authority to revise this doctrine, just as he would do with the Passover.
Third, Jesus NC Sabbath allows for all manner of work, even the kind that would have brought the death penalty under Moses.
So here are three points, among many, that Jesus teaches about his Gospel Sabbath. And yet, you and your brother Bob do not believe any of them. (Go to post 177, and see where he refutes these points. He thinks the Sabbath was only made for the Jews, but this is not what Jesus teaches.)
Sal, the RC SDA critic at All Experts takes the same position.
He thinks he has to defy the original meaning of the Gospels, and ignore what the Word says, in order to blunt the false position of the SDA’s. This is not how to study the NT.
Many try and force Jesus to say what they think he meant, thus manipulating the Word instead of letting it instruct them. Very dangerous. Very wrong.
Question For Sal:
Sal, In Mark 2:27 Jesus is clear that the Sabbath was MADE FOR MAN. So we as obedient people must keep the 7th day Sabbath because the Sabbath is a moral law binding on all.
Tina
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Answer
Hello Sister Tina:
I must give you high marks for persistence. I appreciate that you put your beliefs up for examination quite often.
I have previously shown that “man” in the verse does not mean all mankind as you suppose. This dispute with the Pharisees arose not over the question of who was supposed to keep the Sabbath, but rather over how the Sabbath was to be kept and who had the authority to determine how the law was to be applied.
The SDA belief that here Jesus is teaching that all mankind must keep the 7th day Sabbath is not found in the text.
Jesus and the Pharisees knew that the Sabbath was only for the Jews.
Neither Jesus nor the Pharisees were concerned with the question of who must keep the Sabbath. Such a concern is limited to the SDA church and other sabbatarians.
Let us note that in the text it does not say “all mankind” but just “man”. “Jesus said to them, ‘The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath’” (Mark 2:27 NASB).
Compare this fact with other universal text found in the New Testament and you will see a marked difference. “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations…” (Matthew 28:19 NASB). “…I will pour out a portion of my spirit on all mankind…” (Acts 2:17 NASB). “…for he desires all men to be saved…” (1 Timothy 2:4 NASB). “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men” (Titus 2:11 NASB). These universal texts contain the word “all” that is missing from Mark 2:27.
Our obedience to God is not based on New Covenant Christians performing duties that God required of other people living under other covenants. Christians must obey God’s requirements for those living under the New Covenant. Unfortunately for your position, Sabbath observance was the sign of the Old Covenant not the New.
Those living under the Old Covenant were absolutely required to observe the Sabbath under pain of death. There is no such command or penalty of any sort directed at Christians.
Mark 2:27 is a favorite verse among sabbatarians to “prove” that all mankind is required to observe the 7th day Sabbath. Let’s back up and take a look at the context. In verses 21 & 22 Jesus illustrates that the New Covenant gospel cannot be put on the Old Covenant (v. 21) or in the Old Covenant (v. 22). This is a problem for those Christians who believe that the Old Covenant and the New Covenant are basically the same covenant.
“No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; otherwise the patch pulls away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear results. No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins” (vs. 21-22 NASB). This is immediately followed by Jesus’ disciples being accused of Sabbath breaking.
“And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain. The Pharisees were saying to Him, ‘Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?’” (vs. 23-24 NASB). Jesus chooses to defend his disciples with an appeal to an incident in David’s life.
“And He said to them, ‘Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry; how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?’” (vs. 25-26 NASB).
David had broken the ceremonial law of the showbread which Jesus compares with his disciples breaking of the Sabbath. In order for the two events to relate Jesus must have viewed the Sabbath to be a ceremonial law.
Therefore, he uses the example of David and his men breaking the ceremonial law in order to take care of their human need. Likewise Jesus’ disciples could break a ceremonial law, the Sabbath, in order to satisfy a human need.
If Jesus thought the Sabbath was a moral law it would have been foolish of him to defend his disciples saying, “David and his men broke a ceremonial law and were innocent, therefore, my disciples may break a moral law and be innocent also.” The two just don’t relate its apples and oranges.
The context of Mark 2:21-28 is that the Old Covenant is not a sufficient vessel for the New Covenant. Jesus’ gospel must have a whole new vessel. The old cloth and wineskins of the Old Covenant cannot hold or support the New Covenant.
The Old Covenant must be done away with or removed from one’s conscience in order for the gospel to function unhampered. Adherence to the Old Covenant hinders acceptance of the New Covenant. This is why Paul was so adamant that Christians must “cast out the bondwoman” by which he meant cast out the Old Covenant (Galatians 4:24, 30). The Old Covenant was good, but the New Covenant is far better. When the better comes the good must be replaced. This was illustrated by John the Baptist’s good ministry being replaced by the greater ministry of Christ. “He must increase, but I must decrease” (John 3:30 NASB). Paul put this same thought this way,
“Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory” (2 Corinthians 3:7-9 ESV).
It is significant that just after saying in effect that he is making the Old Covenant obsolete Jesus speaks about the sign of this obsolete covenant, the Sabbath.
Jesus then lets the Pharisees know that the Sabbath is not indispensible in the covenant he is introducing. In fact in retelling David’s eating of the showbread Jesus is saying that if the Pharisees would have properly read the Old Covenant Scriptures they should have known that the Sabbath was not even the most important law in that covenant (the Sabbath was set aside for ceremonial duties and human needs).
Circumcision was a more important law. The law of circumcision must not be broken; therefore, the Sabbath was set aside for it (John 7:22-23). The Sabbath was very important as the sign of the Old Covenant, but circumcision was the entrance sign into the Old Covenant. In order for a male to be required to observe the Sabbath he had to first be circumcised thus circumcision trumped Sabbath observance.
The Pharisees could not see this because they had elevated the 7th day Sabbath to the status of the main thing. God never made the Sabbath the main thing. It was part of a temporary covenant (Galatians 3:17-19). It was part of the Law covenant given between the covenant of Grace promised to Abraham and the covenant of Grace realized in Christ. Its job was to lead people to Christ and then be dismissed.
“But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:23-26 NKJV).
One final point, sabbatarians like to quote “made for man” as you did. They and you put the emphasis on “man”. I would like to suggest the great irony in sabbatarians use of Mark 2:27. They believe this verse shows that the Sabbath is a moral law for all men the irony is that it actually shows the opposite.
In this verse the Lord of the Sabbath announces that the Sabbath “was made”. Moral laws are not made. Moral laws are eternal they have always existed.
Ceremonial laws are the ones “made for man”.
This is another indicator that Jesus knew that the Sabbath was a ceremonial law for the Israelites and not a moral law for all mankind. This view agrees with the rest of the Bible evidence.
The first mention of the Sabbath is when it was given to Israel alone (Exodus 16:22-23). It was put in the covenant document between God and Israel, i.e. the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:8-11). God specifically calls the Sabbath a sign of His covenant with Israel (Exodus 31:12-18).
The Sabbath as part of the Law covenant was made only for a specific time period (Galatians 3:17-19, 23-25). The coming of Jesus rendered the whole law covenant including its sign obsolete. “In that He says, ‘A new covenant,’ He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away” (Hebrews 8:13 NKJV).
Note, too, that the Sabbath was never commanded of Gentiles as a people; therefore, they are never threatened with punishment nor punished for its violation. Nehemiah 9 indicates that the Sabbath was first “made known” to Israel it was not a Creation Ordinance kept before the Exodus.
“Then You came down on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven; You gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments. So You made known to them Your holy sabbath, And laid down for them commandments, statutes and law, Through Your servant Moses” (vs.13-14 NASB).
I realize that your theology demands that you change Nehemiah’s wording here to “reminded them of Your holy Sabbath.” This way it would better fit with your belief in a Creation Ordinance, but I ask you, sister, is that the right way to deal with God’s word? Wouldn’t it be best to accept “made known” and change your theology to conform to the Bible?
Thanks for writing.
May God Bless You,
Brother Sal
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … h-made.htm
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While Sal, a Roman Catholic, can be excused, no SDA, or Protestant should ever treat the Word with such disrespect. Every translation of Mark correctly quotes Jesus as saying his Sabbath was made for all mankind. This fact cannot be refuted.
But Sal knows that this SDA questioner supports false doctrine, so he fights back to defend truth. But in doing so, the meaning of the passage is missed by all.
The passage says what it says; “mankind.” Thus Jesus failed to teach a Jewish only Sabbath when he had the chance. The passage reads the way the Holy Spirit wanted it to read. We must deal with the intended meaning, not change the Word and blaspheme the Spirit.
Matt. 12:32 “Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Let’s face it: there are legions of people who claim to follow Christ, but in fact, are doing no such thing. They don’t “hear” or understand what he teaches about the Sabbath, or much of anything else, which means they do not understand the Gospel. Nor do most in Laodicea care. They are content with their myths, including the false assumption that they are part of the family of God, when they are not.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Why keep pretending that Jesus does not teach a NC view of the Sabbath? Just because it offends you? Because the SDA’s got it so wrong? These are not sufficient reasons to pretend Christ does not teach on this topic. He does. It’s just that you don’t like what he says, so you deny he teaches much of anything, as you run off to quote Paul, taking him out of context in the process. Sad.
Furthermore, when the NC Sabbath is understood, the doctrine of tithe is automatically abolished and made moot. Tithe cannot exist where all are priests of God, and neither can the OC, non-working, holy Sabbath, which is predicated on a non-priestly configuration.
Error, error, everywhere error. But yet, the Gospel trumps all error and corrects all false doctrine. Those that follow the genuine Gospel will do a lot of repenting.
Why? Because they will come to understand that they have embraced one false doctrine after another, starting with the Sabbath and then tithe, and on and on … thus many blind eyes will be open to see. Just like the in the Gospels.
Matt. 15:31 So the crowd marveled as they saw the mute speaking, the crippled restored, and the lame walking, and the blind seeing; and they glorified the God of Israel.
Jesus physical healing, especially of the blind on the Sabbath, has a deep spiritual meaning. If we admit we are lame, dumb, and blind, and ask to be healed, Jesus will do so.
Which is to say, that many who do not understand the Gospel, will be able to do so, if they only repent and ask. However, those who pretend they are well, and need no healing, thinking they know the Gospel, will not be healed, nor will they obtain Eternal Life.
John 9:15 Then the Pharisees also were asking him again how he received his sight. And he said to them, “He applied clay to my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”
John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such 1bsigns?” And there was a division among them.
John 9:17 So they *said to the blind man again, “What do you say about Him, since He opened your eyes?” And he said, “He is a prophet.”
John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
John 9:36 He answered, “Who is He, 1Lord, that I may believe in Him?”
John 9:37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.”
John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
John 10:6 This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.
All Laodiceans are blind to the Gospel, naked and unsaved. If they do not repent, and ask for healing, they will remain blind to the teachings of Christ, including his NC Sabbath that caused so much controversy and debate.
At the end of time, those who understand the Gospel correctly, will also master the doctrine of the NC Sabbath. If they don’t, they have the wrong Christ and the wrong Gospel, as well as the wrong view of the Sabbath and all else.
Bsheilds said: I have read it over and over and all I see is that not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law until...... That said, what did He change while here on the Earth?
Tom said: You are not seeing clearly, and you are misreading the scriptures. Christ changed the OC into the NC. It was the greatest religious transformation (change) in the history of the world. Thus Judaism morphed into the Christian Faith, and the church became the new Israel of God. All thanks to Christ!
John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
All must sit at the feet of Christ and learn what he teaches about the NC Sabbath. I already mentioned a few points about the NC Sabbath from Christ, - but you don’t believe him.
John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 4:48 So Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe.”
John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
Why not just stand up and say that Christ was wrong. Don’t pretend that you are following him. No. You are refuting what Christ teaches, even as you are embracing a fraud of your own imagination. You are not a true believer, only a believer in religious myths and false teachers.
Matt. 24:11 “Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
Matt. 24:24 “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Bsheilds said: Was there ever a law against healing on the Israelite Sabbath?
Tom said: Yes! It was called the 4th Commandment. It was so strict that if you picked up sticks for firewood you were guilty of a capitol crime. And so too, if you made a fire. Healing, making medicine, and the treatment of the sick was work. It was not allowed. Only “complete rest.”
So there were strict laws about all work, even healing. Jesus was not a Levite, so there is no possibility that he would have been allowed to heal on the Sabbath.
Ex. 31:14 ‘Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex. 31:15 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.
Those who practiced the healing arts, would not be allowed to ply their trade on the Sabbath. Healing was a trade or service that had to be paid for, and thus it was work that could be done on the other 6 days, but not the 7th.
Luke 13:14 But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, “There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day.”
While the Jews did allow for emergencies, the healing that Jesus was doing on the Sabbath was not of that nature. Neither the man born blind nor the woman who had been sick for almost 20 years, qualified as emergencies that could not wait until the Sabbath was over. This was to underscore the point Jesus was making about this reformed Sabbath doctrine. He wanted the Jews to understand his new reforms about the Sabbath.
Luke 13:16 “And this woman, a daughter of Abraham as she is, whom Satan has bound for eighteen long years, should she not have been released from this bond on the Sabbath day?”
Note that there were “physicians” in the Gospel Story, and like many today, they were expensive, unsuccessful, and had to be paid. Over time, they actually took all this patients money, and now she was in a worse way.
But the point here is that healing was a job, it was work, it was a business transaction that was paid for, none of which could take place on the 7th day. (Not that this healing took place on the Sabbath. Many did not. Jesus healed 7 days a week.)
Mark 5:25 A woman who had had a hemorrhage for twelve years,
Mark 5:26 and had endured much at the hands of many physicians, and had spent all that she had and was not helped at all, but rather had grown worse —
Mark 5:27 after hearing about Jesus, she came up in the crowd behind Him and touched His cloak.
Mark 5:28 For she thought, “If I just touch His garments, I will get well.”
Mark 5:29 Immediately the flow of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her affliction.
Under OC law, healing was not allowed. Thus Jesus was a Sabbath breaker. But not under the NC, where good works are encouraged on the 7th day.
Bsheilds asked: Where does it tell us that the Sabbath is now an unholy day and all Gentiles are bound to observe it as such?
Tom said: This is a very good question, even though it sounds like it came from the Jews who hated Christ.
Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority!
Matt. 21:23 When He entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to Him while He was teaching, and said, “By what authority are You doing these things, and who gave You this authority?”
Everyone wanted to know who gave Jesus permission to desecrate the holy Sabbath. The leaders could never imagine a doctrine of the Sabbath without all the rules for them to enforce in the name of God. It made no sense to their legalistic minds. To keep the Sabbath holy was to refrain “completely” from all work. Period.
John 2:18 The Jews then said to Him, “What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?”
The authority for the NC Sabbath, - is the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels. He is the Lord of the Sabbath and the Son of God.
NC Sabbath NOT HOLY
But guess what? The NC Sabbath is NOT “holy” like the OC doctrine. Which is why Jesus never utters the phrase “holy Sabbath” or “holy Day.”
Such a point stuns the SDA’s, just like the fact that there can be no tithing in the NC.
In fact, the NT contains neither of these OT phrases about the Sabbath. Why? Because the NC Sabbath is not like the OC Sabbath any more than the OC is like the NC.
The NC Sabbath is a doctrine that comes directly from the Gospel teachings of Christ. It unites both Jew and Gentile in the Gospel, even as it upends what was once considered holy and lawful. It even destroys the doctrine of tithe.
Acts 10:28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.
While the Jews thought that everyone else was unholy but them, they were wrong. The apostles had to be taught that being Unholy, in an OC perspective, is no longer bad or even true. The NC takes what is holy, and makes it unholy, even as it takes what is unholy and makes it clean.
Acts 10:14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.”
Acts 10:15 Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.”
In the OC, it would have been a crime and a sin to associate with the Gentiles, much less eat their food on the 7th day. It would have also been sinful and wrong to work on this holy day. But what was wrong and unholy in the OC, is not in the NC.
Whatever holiness was ascribed to the OC Sabbath, there is more associated with the NC Sabbath, because Christ is the holy Son of God, the Lord of All, even the Gospel Sabbath. He is holy, not the day. NOT THE DAY.
While the 7th DAY was holy in the OC, Christ is holy in the NC, and so too his followers, which are priests of God, commanded to do good works on the Sabbath and not rest. Thus what was unholy and sinful, ie, doing work on the Sabbath, is now holy and innocent.
So God, Christ, and the Sprit are holy, and even the Angels in heaven, but not the NC Sabbath day. The NT NEVER refers to the 7th day as holy. Because it no longer is!
(Note: If you place your ear next to the computer screen, you will hear the sound of numerous SDA heads exploding. Ha! There goes one now, and another and another…)
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Those that follow Christ are also called holy, in the NC. But not the Sabbath, aka, the Lord’s day. People are more important than doctrines or OC holy days. People are holy, not days.
1Pet. 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Now perhaps you can see why the Jews were stunned at Jesus words. His reforms were the opposite of what they expected. Instead of reforming the unclean Romans, he called for Gospel Reform of the Jews, and they were not interested any more than are the SDA leaders today. Those in control of false religion fight to keep their position of control and authority. This is the evil nature of man, which fights against the Gospel.
Bsheilds said: Why have you never tried to answer these types of Questions? Why do you continue to ramble on almost endlessly about everything else but what we need to know in order to keep the unholy day?
Tom said: Your questions have been answered over and over and over. Why can’t you understand the answers? It is because you don’t really want to follow what Christ teaches. The Jews played the same game.
John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
John 8:45 “But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
Many religious people do not like Gospel truth. They prefer double-talk and myths. Sad.
Tom wrote: Moreover, this lame excuse that mankind has lost the weekly cycle is silly and wrong. Jesus, the 1st century Lord of the Sabbath, knew exactly what day of the week was the Sabbath.
Bsheilds said: Yes Jesus established the 7th day. Was it under the Luner calendar which the Jews used, we know it wasn't the same calendar we now use because ours came after Jesus. When they changed calendars were days lost or added? Jewish scholars admit days have been changed. They don't know if they are keeping the correct day. They don't care either. As long as the flock is kept dumb and happy what is the difference.
Tom said: The 7th day was around long before the 1st century. So Christ did not invent it then. But he did reform it, and thus he did invent the Gospel Sabbath. Even though it is also correct to say that he received this doctrine from God, his father. This is what he told the Jews.
You are just wasting time and promoting myths. There is no evidence that the 7th day weekly cycle has ever been lost. Why are you trying to make an issue where there is none?
Answer: to help you defend false doctrine.
Pay attention:
“There is no record of the 7-day week cycle ever having been broken. Calendar changes and reform have never interrupted the 7-day cycles. It very likely that the week cycles have run uninterrupted at least since the days of Moses (c. 1400 B.C.E.), possibly even longer.”
http://www.webexhibits.org/calendars/week.html
Bsheilds said: Many SDAs are upset as they have discovered they could possibly be observing the wrong day. No wonder we as Christians are not asked to observe days. No one knows which day they would observe anyway.
Tom said: No one today need be upset by this myth about the 7th day being lost. This is nothing but anti-Sabbatarian garbage, just like NCT.
Rather, they should be upset that their leaders are so dishonest about the Gospel. They should be angry that they have been lied to about tithe, the Sabbath and many other false doctrines, such as the IJ and abstinence. But the days of the week are not an issue.
Christ instructed his followers, - at the end of time, to be prepared to run from destruction. He taught that the 7th day Sabbath (in some form) would be in effect during this future period. Such a fact undercuts this nonsense about we don’t know which day is the 7th, even as it disproves this other myth that the Sabbath has been abolished.
Jesus knew what day was the 7th day, and so too can anyone today know such a point.
Matt. 24:17 “Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
Matt. 24:18 “Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
Matt. 24:19 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Matt. 24:20 “But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt. 24:22 “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
In the first century, Jesus knew which day was the 7th -even as he teaches that we will also know the correct days of the week at the end of time. The days of the week have not been lost or confused since the 1st century, or even earlier. Sorry.
Tom said: One is either saved or they are not. No one will receive Eternal life with only a 99% approval rating. It takes 100% perfect righteousness to be saved. You are not even close to 50%, much less 99%.
Matt. 5:48 “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Bsheilds replied: If you will observe my post you will find out that I was not writing about approval ratings, I was writing about what God expects me to do as a Christian.
Tom said: I understood your point. But it makes no difference. What God expects of us is perfect righteousness. Period. 100% approval is needed. This is what God expects. 99% will only get you into hell. Sorry.
Matt. 5:20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Bsheilds said; Your statement only proves that you do not take our posts seriously nor do you read them with any regard as to what we write. Thank the Good Lord you won't have any part in the judgment.
Tom said: I take the Gospel seriously, not the repudiation of it.
Moreover, you are wrong to think that I play no role in the Judgment. I am trying to help you believe in the genuine Gospel of Christ so that YOU can pass the judgment. (You’re welcome!) The Gospel teaches that we are to help others and pay attention to their needs. You need to understand the Gospel, and so too do many other refugees from Adventism.
Phil. 2:4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
So I am trying to play a positive role in the judgment, - for your benefit. I am trying to help you find the genuine Christ, who alone grants Eternal Life.
John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
I am trying to warn you to stop teaching this anti-Sabbatarian NCT garbage. Why? So you can pass the judgment.
James 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
I am trying to teach you to stop complaining so much about the SDA’s and seek truth, not revenge. So you can pass the Judgment.
James 5:9 Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.
I am trying to help you understand and embrace the Word of Christ, which includes his NC Sabbath, so that you can pass the Judgment and gain Eternal Life.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
I am trying to help you understand the teachings of Christ, - so you can pass the judgment. Those that reject such Gospel help will not pass the Judgment. Sad.
Matt. 24:14 “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom wrote: Unless you repent, and stop fighting against the teachings of Christ, you will remain at a 0% level of salvation. Which is to say,--- you are doomed.
Bsheilds said: That is an awful statement to make.
Tom said: Truth is often very painful. But I agree, it will be “awful” for anyone that fails to pass the Judgment. Especially for those who could have so easily repented and embraced the Gospel.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
Bsheilds said: As to repenting, I have asked full repentance.
Tom replied. Ha! I doubt it. Have you asked forgiveness for rejecting the Gospel Sabbath of Christ? No. In fact, not only have you not asked for such forgiveness, you don’t think you have any Sabbath error! You think you understand the Gospel correctly, when you are not even close.
So you don’t know how to ask for forgiveness, because you don’t understand the Gospel, nor are you following the genuine Christ of the Gospels. You are spiritually blind, but yet, you claim to see. This is the delusion of Laodicea, and the curse of the Adventist Community.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Bsheilds said: Thank the Lord that it isn't what we do that saves us, it is what the Lord has done for us.
Tom said: Which Lord are you thanking? The real Christ, who is also Lord of the Gospel Sabbath? Or your confused Jesus who hates the Sabbath, and teaches that it has been abolished, then made into an Every Day spiritual rest for those who go to church on Sunday?
I fear you are having an affair with a fraud; a worthless Christ.
Moreover, we are saved by faith in the Gospel, which then influences what we do. However, if you follow a false Gospel, and a mythical Christ, you are not saved at all.
Anyone that follows a Sabbath hating Christ, or a tithe paying one, is following a fraud. So too if their Jesus teaches that wine is sinful to drink, or that it is wrong to work on the 7th day.
There are legions of false Christ’s on the loose. The challenge is to find the genuine Christ. Few in Laodicea have done this, and fewer still in the SDA Community.
Bsheilds said: I can tell that you have your idea of salvation based on works just as do the SDAs. And you ask us to go along with your teachings? I think not, I opt out.
Tom said: Salvation is based on faith in the works, teaching, and sacrifice of Christ. Those who seek Eternal Life must understand and embrace the genuine Gospel, even as they must be careful not to follow a false Christ.
Any that opt out of the genuine Gospel, will be lost. Especially those who were given many chances to understand and believe.
Bsheilds quoted: John 3:16 New Living Translation (NLT)
16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
Tom replied: This text is for those who embrace the genuine Christ of the Gospels. It does not apply to any who are following a fraud. There is no Eternal Life for those who believe in a false Christ. Beware.
Bsheilds quoted: Jn 5:24 “I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.
Tom said: Here Jesus is warning all to “listen” to his “message” and believe it. This includes what he teaches, over and over, about the Gospel Sabbath. Any that “opt out” of Jesus NC Sabbath, for any reason, will not pass the judgment.
Thus the SDA’s are doomed unless they repent, and so too their NCT critics. It is time for the church to start “listening” to what Christ teaches, and stop embracing worthless myths and double-talk.
Bsheilds asked: Why didn't Paul, Peter, John, Timothy or any of the other Bible writers ever say anything about a NC Sabbath?
Tom said: Ha! If you think the NT does not teach a NC Sabbath for the church, then you are a lost man, unable to comprehend the Gospel Story or follow the teachings of Jesus. Sad.
While the NT does NOT promote the OC Sabbath, it does contain the active and reformed NC Sabbath of Christ, which is supported by Paul and the rest of the NT.
Of course, if you don’t know what to look for, or where to look, how can you find it?
Those that are serious about following Christ and his Gospel, will take the time to understand the NC Sabbath. Seek and you shall find.
Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
In conclusion, it is time for the Adventist Community, both those that have left, and the ones that have stayed, to repent for their many false doctrines, including the OC Sabbath, tithe, and the IJ.
Everyone needs to get serious about the Gospel, which includes the active and reformed NC Sabbath of Christ, which is based on the priesthood of all believers.
The NC Sabbath is a paradigm changing doctrine not only for the Jews, but also for the Advent Movement, and the entire Laodicean Church.
Let all those that want to follow the genuine Gospel of Christ move forward into present truth.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, I have to admit that I have not read every line of your epistles, but do you give a contribution and collection alternative than the current SDA current system, or give one that gets it right according to Tom Norris. If Jesus by just mentioning the Sabbath plays into a Reformed Sabbath, why not
Matt 23:23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. and
Luke 11:42 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.
should be enough for you to promote a Reformed Tithing System, Tom!!! Or showing there is no change in the system.
Last edited by bob_2 (06-22-12 2:22 am)
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Last edited by bob_2 (06-22-12 12:24 pm)
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Tom said:
In fact, a correct way to read this passage is:
“The NC Sabbath was made for ALL MANKIND.”
And how did you determine that? Did you not find a Dictionary that agreed with your position? I at least went to and showed you my source. It was a source that knows the Bible way more than you or I. Is womankind not included in the command? When Jesus spoke he was still under OC law. He is our Savior for keeping the law He was under perfectly.
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Bob said: Tom, I have to admit that I have not read every line of your epistles, but do you give a contribution and collection alternative than the current SDA current system, or give one that gets it right according to Tom Norris.
Tom said: You need to read more and post less. There was a lot of information in that post, including an explanation about why the NC Sabbath is no longer “holy” like the OC doctrine.
Did you miss that point?
How can you learn the Gospel, much less defend your false views, if you don’t read the material? No wonder you are failing Gospel 101! You are not paying attention in class and you refuse to do your homework.
Bob said: If Jesus by just mentioning the Sabbath plays into a Reformed Sabbath, why not Matt 23:23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. And Luke 11:42 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.
Tom said: Jesus did far more than “mention” the Sabbath in the Gospels. Nor was he “playing” games with anyone. So you need to understand what he teaches about the NC Sabbath and why.
As for OC tithing, Jesus is making the point that the Jews were legalistic hypocrites, misunderstanding the OC system, which was meant to be full of “Justice, mercy, faithfulness.” He was not endorsing tithe in the NC. Nor did Jesus refer to himself as the Lord of Tithe? There is a reason why he never did this.
Bob said: should be enough for you to promote a Reformed Tithing System, Tom!!! Or showing there is no change in the system.
Tom said: Doctrine must be based on more than just a mention or reference. Nothing Jesus teaches can justify NC tithing, for there was no such doctrine in the NC or the apostolic church, nor can there ever be such an OC practice in the church.
Those who take passages out of their context, making up doctrines, are fools. This is how snake handling developed in some uneducated churches. There is no end to such false doctrine.
Luke 10:19 “Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling
http://abcnews.go.com/US/serpent-handli … -XUR464LHg
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle … story.html
Back to the NC Sabbath
Tom said: In fact, a correct way to read this passage is: “The NC Sabbath was made for ALL MANKIND.”
Bob replied: And how did you determine that?
Tom said: I looked it up, just like you can do.
Bob asked: Did you not find a Dictionary that agreed with your position? I at least went to and showed you my source. It was a source that knows the Bible way more than you or I. Is womankind not included in the command?
Tom said: Ha! Are you joking? Your source was an 18th century Baptist. I suggest that you find a more modern and credible source for such definitions. Hermeneutics was not fully developed or understood during this early time period.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gill_(theologian)
Pay attention: every translation, concordance, lexicon, and dictionary in the world says Mark 2: 27 is a reference to “mankind.” No modern or credible source claims that the word here is Jew. Thus the text cannot read that the Sabbath is “made for the Jews." That is not what Jesus says. Sorry.
anthrópos
Word Origin: probably from anér and óps (eye, face)
Definition: a man, human, mankind
NASB Word Usage:
any (1), anyone (1), child (1), enemy* (1), everyone* (1), fellow (1), friend (1), human (5), human judgment (1), human relations (1), king* (1), Man (89), man (232), man's (8), mankind (5), men (164), men's (2), nobleman* (1), one* (3), others (4), people (13), people* (1), person (2), persons (1), self (4).
http://concordances.org/nasec/greek/444.htm
http://concordances.org/greek/anthro_pous_444.htm
There is no possibility that this passage teaches the Sabbath is made for the Jews! To further prove this point, check out the many translations below:
Mark 2:27
<< Mark 2:26 | Mark 2:28 >>
Mark 2:27 (KJ21) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 And He said unto them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 (ASV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath
Mark 2:27 (AMP) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 And Jesus said to them, The Sabbath was made on account and for the sake of man, not man for the Sabbath;
Mark 2:27 (CEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 Then he said, “The Sabbath was created for humans; humans weren’t created for the Sabbath
Mark 2:27 (CJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 Then he said to them, “Shabbat was made for mankind, not mankind for Shabbat
Mark 2:27 (CEV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 Jesus finished by saying, “People were not made for the good of the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for the good of people.
Mark 2:27 (DARBY) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 And he said to them, The sabbath was made on account of man, not man on account of the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 (DRA) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 And he said to them: The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.
Mark 2:27 (ERV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 Then Jesus said to the Pharisees, “The Sabbath day was made to help people. People were not made to be ruled by the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 (ESV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 (ESVUK) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 (GW) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 Then he added, “The day of worship was made for people, not people for the day of worship.
Mark 2:27 (GNT) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 And Jesus concluded,
The Sabbath was made for the good of human beings; they were not made for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 (HCSB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 Then He told them, “The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:25-28 (PHILLIPS) | Whole Chapter
25-28 Then he spoke to them. “Have you never read what David did, when he and his companions were hungry? Haven’t you read how he went into the house of God when Abiathar was High Priest, and ate the presentation loaves, which nobody is allowed to eat, except the priests—and gave some of the bread to his companions?
The Sabbath,” he continued, “was made for man’s sake; man was not made for the sake of the Sabbath. That is why the Son of Man is master even of the Sabbath.”
Mark 2:27 (KJV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mark 2:27 (LEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was established for people, and not people for the Sabbath
Mark 2:25-28 (MSG) | Whole Chapter
25-28Jesus said, "Really? Haven't you ever read what David did when he was hungry, along with those who were with him? How he entered the sanctuary and ate fresh bread off the altar, with the Chief Priest Abiathar right there watching—holy bread that no one but priests were allowed to eat—and handed it out to his companions?"
Then Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made to serve us; we weren't made to serve the Sabbath. The Son of Man is no lackey to the Sabbath. He's in charge!"
Mark 2:27 (MOUNCE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 (NASB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 Jesus said to them, “ The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 (NCV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 Then Jesus said to the Pharisees, "The Sabbath day was made to help people; they were not made to be ruled by the Sabbath day.
Mark 2:27 (NIRV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 Then Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath day was made for man. Man was not made for the Sabbath day.
Mark 2:27 (NIV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 (NIV1984) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 (NIVUK) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 Then he said to them, ‘The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 (NKJV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 (NLV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 Jesus said to them, “The Day of Rest was made for the good of man. Man was not made for the Day of Rest.
Mark 2:27 (NLT) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 Then Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made to meet the needs of people, and not people to meet the requirements of the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 (TNIV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for people, not people for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 (WE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 Jesus went on to say, `The Sabbath was made for the good of man. Man was not made for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 (WYC) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 And he said to them, The sabbath is made for man, and not man for the sabbath;
Mark 2:27 (YLT) | In Context | Whole Chapter
27 And he said to them, `The sabbath for man was made, not man for the sabbath,
http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Mark%202:27
The reason for such universal agreement about this passage is because anthrópos means MAN, not Jew. There are hundreds of texts where this word, or its derivative, is used, and thus there can be no question as to its meaning.
anthrópos: a man, human, mankind
Original Word: ἄνθρωπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: anthrópos
Phonetic Spelling: (anth'-ro-pos)
Short Definition: a man, one of the human race
Definition: a man, one of the human race.
Note:
444 ánthrōpos – man, also the generic term for "mankind"; the human race; people, including women and men (Mt 4:19, 12:12, etc.).
444 (anthrōpos) relates to both genders (male and female) as both are created in the image of God – each equally vested with individual personhood and destiny (cf. Gal 3:28). Accordingly, the Bible uses 444 (ánthrōpos) of a specific man, woman, or class (type, group) of people – i.e. mankind in general (inclusive of every man, woman and child; see also 1 Cor 11:7). (435 /anḗr specifically refers to a male and 1135 /gynḗ to a female.)
[444 /ánthrōpos ("man") answers to the Hebrew term, ̓adam – and 435 (anḗr) answers to the Hebrew term ̓ish.
K. Wuest, "There are two words in Greek which mean 'man,' anēr, which refers to a male individual of the human reace, and anthrōpos, which is the racial, generic term, and which has the general idea of 'mankind' " (3, Great Truths to Live By, 46).]
http://concordances.org/greek/444.htm
It’s the same word as many other famous texts where the word man, or mankind is used.
Matthew 4:4 N-NMS
BIB: ζήσεται ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἀλλ' ἐπὶ
NAS: It is written, MAN SHALL NOT LIVE
KJV: and said, It is written, Man shall not
INT: will live the man but by
Matthew 4:19 N-GMP
BIB: ὑμᾶς ἁλιεῖς ἀνθρώπων
NAS: you fishers of men.
KJV: you fishers of men.
INT: you fishers of men
STRONGS NT 444: ἄνθρωπος ἄνθρωπος, ἀνθρώπου, ὁ (perhaps from ἀνήρ and ὤψ, i. e. man's face: Curtius, § 422; Vanicek, p. 9. From Homer down); man. It is used:
1. universally, with reference to the genus or nature, without distinction of sex, a human being, whether male or female: John 16:21. And in this sense a. with the article, generically, so as to include all human individuals: Matthew 4:4 (ἐπ' ἄρτῳ ζήσεται ὁ ἄνθρωπος); Matthew 12:35 (ὁ ἀγαθός ἄνθρωπος every good person); Matthew 15:11, 18; Mark 2:27; Mark 7:15, 18, 20; Luke 4:4; John 2:25 (Winer's Grammar, § 18, 8); John 7:51; Romans 7:1, etc.
b. so that a man is distinguished from beings of a different race or order; α. from animals, plants, etc.: Luke 5:10; Matthew 4:19; Matthew 12:12; 2 Peter 2:16; Revelation 9:4, 7, 10, 15, 18; Revelation 11:13, etc. (beta). from God, from Christ as divine, and from angels: Matthew 10:32; Matthew 19:6; Mark 10:9; Luke 2:15 (T WH omit; L Tr brackets) (opposed to angels); John 10:33; Acts 10:26; Acts 14:11; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; Galatians 1:10, 12; 1 Corinthians 3:21; 1 Corinthians 7:23; Philippians 2:7, 7 (8); 1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 8:2; Hebrews 13:6; 1 Peter 2:4, etc.
c. with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led into mistake or prompted to sin: οὐκ ἄνθρωποι; (R G σαρκικοί) ἐστε; 1 Corinthians 3:4; σοφία ἀνθρώπων, 1 Corinthians 2:5; ἀνθρώπων ἐπιθυμίαι, 1 Peter 4:2; κατά ἄνθρωπον περιπατεῖτε ye conduct yourselves as men, 1 Corinthians 3:3; λαλεῖν or λέγειν κατά ἄνθρωπον, to speak according to human modes of thinking, 1 Corinthians 9:8; Romans 3:5; κατά ἄνθρωπον λέγω, I speak as a man to whom analogies from human affairs present themselves, while I illustrate divine things by an example drawn from ordinary human life, Galatians 3:15; κατά ἄνθρωπον θηριομάχειν, as man is accustomed to fight, urged on by the desire of gain, honor and other earthly advantages, 1 Corinthians 15:32: οὐκ ἐστι κατά ἄνθρωπον is not accommodated to the opinions and desires of men, Galatians 1:11; (for examples of κατά ἄνθρωπον in secular authors see Wetstein on Rom. as above); with the accessory notion of malignity: προσέχετε ἀπό τῶν ἀνθρώπων, Matthew 10:17; εἰς χεῖρας ἀνθρώπων, Matthew 17:22; Luke 9:44.
d. with the adjunct notion of contempt (as sometimes in Greek writings): John 5:12; the address ὦ ἄνθρωπε, or ἄνθρωπε, is one either of contempt and disdainful pity, Romans 9:20 (Plato, Gorgias, p. 452 b. σύ δέ ... τίς εἰ, ὦ ἄνθρωπε), or of gentle rebuke, Luke 22:58, 60. The word serves to suggest commiseration: ἴδε (T Tr WH ἰδού) ὁ ἄνθρωπος behold the man in question, maltreated, defenseless, John 19:5.
e. with a reference to the twofold nature of man. ὁ ἔσω and ὁ ἔξω ἄνθρωπος, soul and body: Romans 7:22; Ephesians 3:16; 2 Corinthians 4:16, (Plato, rep. 9, 589 a. ὁ ἐντός ἄνθρωπος; Plotinus Enn. 5, 1, 10 ὁ εἴσω ἄνθρωπος; cf. Fritzsche on Romans, vol. ii., 61f. (Meyer on Romans, the passage cited; Ellicott on Ephesians, the passage cited)); ὁ κρυπτός τῆς καριδας ἀνθρ. 1 Peter 3:4.
f. with a reference to the twofold moral condition of man, ὁ παλαιός (the corrupt) and ὁ καινός (ὁ νέος) ἄνθρωπος (the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God): Romans 6:6; Ephesians 2:15; Ephesians 4:22, 24; Colossians 3:9f.
g. with a reference to the sex, (contextually) a male: John 7:22f.
2. indefinitely, without the article, ἄνθρωπος, a. someone, a (certain) man, when who he is either is not known or is not important: equivalent to τίς, Matthew 17:14; Matthew 21:28; Matthew 22:11; Mark 12:1; Mark 14:13; Luke 5:18; Luke 13:19, etc. with the addition of τίς, Matthew 18:12; Luke 10:30; Luke 14:2, 16; Luke 15:11; Luke 16:1, 19; John 5:5. in address, where the speaker either cannot or will not give the name, Luke 5:20; or where the writer addresses any and every reader, Romans 2:1, 3.
b. where what is said holds of every man, so that ἄνθρωπος is equivalent to the German indefinite man, one: Romans 3:28; 1 Corinthians 4:1; 1 Corinthians 7:1; 1 Corinthians 11:28; Galatians 2:16. So also where opposed to domesties, Matthew 10:36; to a wife, Matthew 19:10; to a father, Matthew 10:35; to the master of a household, Luke 12:36f — in which passages many, confounding sense and signification, incorrectly say that the word ἄνθρωπος signifies father of a family, husband, son, servant.
3. in the plural οἱ ἄνθρωποι is sometimes (the) people, German dieLeute: Matthew 5:13, 16; Matthew 6:5, 18; Matthew 8:27; Matthew 16:13; Luke 11:44; Mark 8:24, 27; John 4:28; οὐδείς ἀνθρώπων (nemohominum) no one, Mark 11:2; 1 Timothy 6:16.
4. It is joined a. to another substantive — a quasi-predicate of office, or employment, or characteristic — the idea of the predicate predominating (Winer's Grammar, § 59, 1): ἄνθρωπος ἔμπορος a merchant (-man), Matthew 13:45 (WH text omits ἀνθρώπῳ); οἰκοδεσπότης, Matthew 13:52; Matthew 20:1; Matthew 21:33; βασιλεύς, Matthew 18:23; Matthew 20:2; φάγος, Matthew 11:19. (So in Hebrew סָרִיס אִישׁ a eunuch, Jeremiah 38:7f, כֹּהֵן אִישׁ a priest, Leviticus 21:9; also in Greek writings: ἄνθρωπος ὁδίτης, Homer, Iliad 16, 263, elsewhere; cf. Matthiae, § 430, 6; (Krüger § 57, 1, 1); but in Attic this combination generally has a contemptuous force; cf. Bernhardy (1829), p. 48; in Latinhomogladiator, Cicero, epistles ad diversos 12, 22, 1).
b. to a gentile noun: ἄνθρωπον Κυρηναῖος, Matthew 27:32; Κουδαιος, Acts 21:39; Ῥωμαῖος, Acts 16:37; Acts 22:25 (according to the context, a Roman citizen).
5. ὁ ἄνθρωπος, with the article, the particular man under consideration, who he is being plain from the context: Matthew 12:13; Matthew 26:72; Mark 3:5; Luke 23:6; John 4:50. οὗτος ὁ ἄνθρωπος, Luke 14:30; John 9:16, 24 (L Tr marginal reading WH); ; ὁ ἄνθρωπος οὗτος, Mark 14:71; Luke 23:4, 14, 47; John 9:24 (R G T Tr text): John 18:17; Acts 6:13; Acts 22:26; Acts 26:31, 32. ὁ ἀνθωπος ἐκεῖνος, Matthew 12:45; Matthew 26:24; Mark 14:21.
6. Phrases: ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἁμαρτίας (or with T Tr text WH text, τῆς ἀνομίας), 2 Thessalonians 2:3, see ἁμαρτία, 1, p. 30f ἄνθρωπος τοῦ Θεοῦ a man devoted to the service of God, God's minister: 1 Timothy 6:11; 2 Timothy 3:17 (of the evangelists, the associates of the apostles); 2 Peter 1:21 (of prophets, like אֱלֹהִים אִישׁ often in the O. T.; cf. Gesenius, Thesaurus i., p. 85). For ὁ υἱός τοῦ ἀνθρώπου and υἱοί τῶν ἀνθρώπων, see under υἱός.
http://concordances.org/greek/444.htm
No matter how hard you try, the passage means what it says. Jesus teaches that the NC Sabbath is made for all mankind.
Bob said: When Jesus spoke he was still under OC law. He is our Savior for keeping the law He was under perfectly.
Tom replied: Jesus was not bound by the OC, as you claim, which is why the Jewish leaders became so upset with him. For example, he purposefully broke the OC Sabbath law, over and over, in order to explain the NC. Proving that he was not bound by the OC as some assume.
It was Jesus’ Gospel mission to change the OC into the NC. When he spoke, he was empowered by the NC, even as he was the Son of God, who had all authority over the Law, and all things, even the Sabbath. Jesus was greater than the OC, even as he is Lord of the NC and the NC Sabbath.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Gospel Reform
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Tom, in Strong's, the word Sabbath in Mark 2:27 as follows:
sabbaton
1) the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work
a) the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week
b) a single sabbath, sabbath day
2) seven days, a week
He is talking to the Jews that were given the command to keep the Sabbath, not the Gentiles, and it never was part of the Gospel. You are like the tSDAs that pick and choose what they wish to retain from the OC not realizing, fulfillment means done, complete and under the New Covenant, we should look for the tenets in the NT/NC time. I have never seen a command in the New Covenant time to keep one day more sacred than any other day. In fact the NT scripture says:
Romans 14:5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
Cross references:Romans 14:5 : Gal 4:10; Col 2:16
BTW, my eyes glaze over with the length of your diatribes [others have mentioned this to you, also] especially when what you are saying makes no sense and are not backed up with scripture in the context being discussed.
Last edited by bob_2 (06-24-12 4:11 am)
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BTW, my eyes glaze over with the length of your diatribes [others have mentioned this to you, also] especially when what you are saying makes no sense and are not backed up with scripture in the context being discussed.
Amen Bob, when I first came on this board I suggested Tom to shorten his responses but he just ignored my suggestions like he ignores the truth we present. I pray someday he will be released from his stubborn attitude and realize others have good reason for their thoughts.
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Bob, don’t you think it is time to admit that Jesus teaches a reformed, NC Sabbath for all mankind?
In Mark 2, it is clear that:
1) Jesus is not saying the Sabbath was made only for the Jews. The original text cannot be refuted. He uses a word for mankind that cannot be misunderstood.
2), Jesus he is not talking about the OC, non-working Sabbath of Moses. Jesus taught a NC version of 7th day Sabbath, even though the SDA’s claim otherwise.
So Bob, you are wrong about these two points. Jesus teaches that his REFORMED NC Sabbath is made for all mankind, just like the Gospel.
Why not admit the obvious and repent of your incorrect views of the Sabbath?
It would not be the first time you have had to do this.
Remember, you were a cultic supporter of the OC, SDA Sabbath for most of your life. You were wrong then, and now you are also wrong to embrace NCT, which is total nonsense.
Are you ready to admit the obvious and repent of your false views?
Or will you continue to be influenced by revenge against the SDA’s, even as you follow another set of blind guides with their confused ideas about the Sabbath? Those who follow the blind become blind.
Matt. 15:13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.
Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
Bob said: Tom, in Strong's, the word Sabbath in Mark 2:27 as follows: sabbaton…
Tom said: Bob, Bob, Bob, you are not paying attention.
The word in question is about “man.” Was the Sabbath “made for all mankind,” or just the Jews, as you and some others claim? THIS is the question that must be studied in the original language.
Here is the original Greek:
anthrópos: a man, human, mankind
Original Word: ἄνθρωπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: anthrópos
Phonetic Spelling: (anth'-ro-pos)
Short Definition: a man, one of the human race
Definition: a man, one of the human race.
In Mark 2: 27, Jesus is clearly teaching that his NC Sabbath is made for all mankind. Period! Such a point cannot be refuted. The text says what it says. Admit that you and Gil, and Sal the RC critic, are all wrong. Jesus is not teaching that his version of the Sabbath was made only for the Jews.
Here is the second point: what Sabbath is under discussion in this passage? The OC Sabbath or the NC version that Christ is teaching?
This too is easy to understand. Only the NC Sabbath can be made for all mankind. The OC Sabbath was only made for the Jews. We all know that. So it can’t be that doctrine. Besides, this is not the Sabbath version that Jesus teaches in the Gospels, so it can’t be a reference to what he does not teach.
Bob said: Jesus is talking to the Jews that were given the command to keep the Sabbath, not the Gentiles, and it was never part of the Gospel.
Tom said: The Gospel was given to the Jews first, according to the plan of God, - then the Gentiles. Jesus was sent to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. (The Apostles Peter and Paul were sent to the Gentiles).
The Jews rejected the Gospel, including the NC Sabbath, even as Jesus NC teachings were meant for both Jews and Gentiles, - the church.
John 1:9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
John 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Jesus Gospel teaching is full of light, glory, grace, and truth. This includes what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. It was meant for all mankind, just like the Gospel.
Bob said: You are like the tSDAs that pick and choose what they wish to retain from the OC not realizing, fulfillment means done, complete and under the New Covenant, we should look for the tenets in the NT/NC time.
Tom said: Ha! The TSDA’s are so confused that they have embraced the OC with both hands, including tithe and the OC Sabbath where it is sinful to work on the 7th day. They are Judaizers for all to see, even thinking that wine is sinful, and so too some foods. They don’t understand the Gospel or Protestant hermeneutics and neither do you, or the rest of the NCT crowd.
Those who follow Christ will pay close attention to his Word in the Gospels. At no time does Christ teach that he has fulfilled the Sabbath. So the NCT crowd is just making things up, forcing Jesus to say what they want to hear. Shame on both the TSDA’s and NCT.
Bob said: I have never seen a command in the New Covenant time to keep one day more sacred than any other day. In fact the NT scripture says: Romans 14:5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Cross references: Romans 14:5 : Gal 4:10; Col 2:16
Tom said: The NC Sabbath is NOT a holy day where it is sinful to work, play, cook, or travel, etc. Thus the Gospel Sabbath does not pretend to be like the OC Sabbath. It is very different.
This fact is why you don’t see any commands to “keep one day more sacred than any other.” The NC Sabbath is not like the OC doctrine.
Some Christians may choose to view the 7th day NC Sabbath, as “more sacred” than the other days of the week, while others do not. Each will have to explain their views to Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath at the Judgment.
Rom. 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Rom. 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom. 14:6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
Rom. 14:7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
Rom. 14:8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.
Rom. 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Rom. 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
Rom. 14:11 For it is written,
“AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.”
Rom. 14:12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
A Gospel believer can view the 7th day Sabbath as a special day or not. Either view is correct, so long as one is not embracing the OC rules of the Sabbath, like the SDA’s, who teach that it is sinful to work or play on the Sabbath. It is not.
Those who follow Christ may view the 7th day as a special day for the church because of its history, meaning, and association with Christ and the Gospel, as well as the congregational aspect of meeting together. This makes the NC Sabbath special for some, while others treat it like the rest of the days, regardless of the worship factor.
Either way is fine. This is what Paul teaches.
Bob complained: BTW, my eyes glaze over with the length of your diatribes [others have mentioned this to you, also] especially when what you are saying makes no sense and are not backed up with scripture in the context being discussed.
Tom said: Ha! How can you ever hope to understand the Gospel if you can’t keep up with the material? This “glazing over” of your eyes; it is really called “spiritual blindness.” This disease is epidemic in Laodicea.
Unless you get some treatment, and find a way to see truth clearly, you will remain blind to the Gospel.
Some cases are harder to heal than others, and anyone who has been raised an SDA is going to require a double treatment; their eyesight has been ruined by years of cultic brainwashing.
Mark 8:22 And they *came to Bethsaida. And they *brought a blind man to Jesus and *implored Him to touch him.
Mark 8:23 Taking the blind man by the hand, He brought him out of the village; and after spitting on his eyes and laying His hands on him, He asked him, “Do you see anything?”
Mark 8:24 And he looked up and said, “I see men, for I see them like trees, walking around.”
Mark 8:25 Then again He laid His hands on his eyes; and he looked intently and was restored, and began to see everything clearly.
It took two treatments from Jesus before this blind man could see clearly. The first removed the darkness, and the second the confusion of false doctrine. Had the man rejected the second treatment, his sight would not have been fully restored. He would have gone through life seeing things incorrectly, like so many Christians are doing today. Many do not let Jesus complete their Gospel healing.
Many today have bad eyesight. While they can see some Gospel light, they are not able to clearly distinguish the law from the Gospel, or a false Christ from the true. Such a common Laodicean State is dangerous, even fatal.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
Bsheilds, a NCT supporter said: Amen Bob, when I first came on this board I suggested Tom to shorten his responses but he just ignored my suggestions like he ignores the truth we present.
Tom said: Those who refuse to embrace the genuine Gospel, will still reject it whether it is presented in a short or long context. So this is just a diversion by those who hold false doctrine.
The IJ screamers would make the same complaint. They often complained that Tom Norris had too many facts, too much church history, and that he made them look bad. Guilty as charged. They too ran away because they were wrong, not because the posts were too long.
Bsheilds said: I pray someday he will be released from his stubborn attitude and realize others have good reason for their thoughts.
Tom said: Ha! You pray to a false Christ for the wrong thing. Sad.
Pay attention: “Only Christ can define the Gospel.” All others must follow his teaching, including the apostles. So the “thoughts of others” are worthless as compared to Christ. Especially when what they teach clashes with what he teaches.
John 7:11 So the Jews were seeking Him at the feast and were saying, “Where is He?”
John 7:12 There was much grumbling among the crowds concerning Him; some were saying, “He is a good man”; others were saying, “No, on the contrary, He leads the people astray.”
Who cares what “others” say about Christ? What matters is what Christ teaches; not what “others” say.
There are no “good reasons” to deny and repudiate what Christ so clearly teaches. Sorry.
Today, the Adventist Community, both the ones that left and those that stayed behind, are blind, deaf, and dumb to the Gospel. (And so too is the rest of Laodicea).
The SDA’s have followed in the legalistic path of the 1st century Jews, who also refused to let go of the OC so they could be saved, even as many have run off to embrace more confusion and error.
Those who fled Adventism, and their OC Sabbath, have made a great mistake to embrace the nonsense of NCT, where the Sabbath has been reduced to double-talk for those who meet on Sunday. There is a NC Sabbath for the church, and when this paradigm changing doctrine is fully understood, so too the Gospel.
The SDA’s were correct to understand that the 1st day cannot be the NC Sabbath. But wrong to misunderstand and reject the Gospel, as well as the reformed, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath of Christ, which is now under public discussion within the Adventist Community.
It is time for everyone who claims to follow Christ, - to stop playing games or listening to ”others.”
It is time for the Advent Movement to repent of their blindness and legalism and understand the genuine Gospel, which includes the 7th day, active Sabbath of Christ, which abolished the OC Sabbath, as well as a separate, tithe based priesthood.
It is time for the church to wake up and embrace the full Gospel, thus fulfilling what has been foretold long ago.
Matt. 24:14 “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.
I hope this helps,
1Pet. 4:7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom said:
Matt 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
If Christ had referred to man as all nations, they would have reacted violently. They saw Him "breaking" what they thought was breaking the Sabbath, but His actions pointed to the corruption of the Pharisees teaching other than the intent of the Old Covenant which they all were under until Christ's blood was spilled. The Sabbath wasn't the issue here, believing Jesus was God's Son was the Gospel. You Tom have got the trivia instead of the true message. He had opportunity after His death when He appeared to the followers of Jesus to emphasize He was the Son of God, raised from the dead, no emphasis of Sabbath was done.
Note the Great Commission in each of the Gospels, says nothing of the Sabbath. If your answer is "teaching them all things I have taught you," show me the command for Sabbath keeping. He only reacts to people's problem with an OC law. Christ's Law takes over after His Death:
Resurrection appearances of Jesus
Scroll down to the table that gives each, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the Great Commission. No Sabbath is mentioned. Where do you get Jesus command as a New Covenant command. You do not have scriptural basis for it.
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Bob, you are not being responsive to the points made. Why are you trying to refute what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath? Why are you denying what the Greek clearly means?
The word Jesus used does not mean Jews, but all mankind. This is not an opinion on my part, but an empirical fact. You don’t get to remove facts from the Gospel Story because you don’t like them. Sorry. You are very wrong. And so too anyone that refuses to take the Word for what it means. We have no authority to change the Words of Christ. Why would you think so?
Bob said: If Christ had referred to man as all nations, they would have reacted violently.
Tom said: Ha! Listen to what you are saying. The Jews DID react violently against Jesus teachings. He often had to escape and run away from danger. Of course, he was finally captured, tortured, and executed on a cross, even as both the Jews and Romans outlawed his Gospel teaching. So your point makes no sense. It shows you are not paying attention to the Words of Christ. Everyone needs to stop revising and changing the Gospel Story to fit their traditions.
John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
John 5:20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.
John 5:21 “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
So, yes, Jesus Gospel teachings drove the Jews and the Romans to do great violence against him and his followers. Especially for his views about the Sabbath. This is what sent them into a rage of murder. This is why they “persecuted” Jesus.
John 7:1 After these things Jesus was walking in Galilee, for He was unwilling to walk in Judea because the Jews were seeking to kill Him.
So your point that - “If Christ had referred to man as all nations, they would have reacted violently,” - supports my position, not yours. Your own words refute your view, and so too the facts.
Bob said: They saw Him "breaking" what they thought was breaking the Sabbath, but His actions pointed to the corruption of the Pharisees teaching other than the intent of the Old Covenant which they all were under until Christ's blood was spilled.
Tom said: So Jesus was not really breaking the Sabbath? Only pretending? Wow! Where do you find this fiction? Do you have a different version of the NT from everyone else? You must.
Unless you can learn to read the Gospel Story in an honest manner, you will never understand truth.
While the religious leaders were corrupt, the OC was clear about how to define Sabbath breaking, and Jesus, who was not a Levite, was a Sabbath breaker by any such definition.
Bob said: The Sabbath wasn't the issue here, believing Jesus was God's Son was the Gospel.
Tom replied: The Reformed Sabbath of Christ was part of Christ’s Gospel teaching. It was a huge issue, - which caused a great amount of debate and controversy because Christ’s NC Sabbath was based on a different priesthood and a different Temple.
Thus the Gospel Sabbath was a flagship doctrine that reflected this new, Semitic religion called Christianity.
In fact, Jesus created the doctrine of the Sabbath and so too Judaism. It was always a large and important doctrine for the Jews, and so too for the Christians. It was so important that Jesus took the title of Lord of the Sabbath to make sure everyone understood how important it was to God and Christ.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
From the very beginning of his ministry, the Jews became outraged when Christ told them that God showed him this NC Sabbath.
Of course the Jews reacted in horror at such blasphemy. How could God possible allow Sabbath breaking for everyone? How could the Levites be eliminated, much less replaced by anyone who claimed to be a priest of God? The Gospel made no sense to the Jews. The OC had been misunderstood so badly that only a few could make the transition to the NC. Very few.
Bob said: You Tom have got the trivia instead of the true message.
Tom said: Such a charge is nonsense. You need to face up to the facts of the Gospel Story, including what the original Greek means in Mark 2: 27. There is no escape from the facts: Jesus teaches that the NC Sabbath is for all mankind. Refute what he teaches at the risk of your soul.
But guess what? You have been raised to believe in a false and confused Gospel, as well as the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath. This explains why you still cannot understand these concepts. Your eyes are not able to see the Gospel or the NC Sabbath clearly or correctly. You have serious eye trouble, and need a physician.
Bob said: He had opportunity after His death when He appeared to the followers of Jesus to emphasize He was the Son of God, raised from the dead, no emphasis of Sabbath was done.
Tom said: All four Gospels were written AFTER the death and resurrection of Christ. They represent what Jesus wanted all mankind to hear and understand. These NC documents contain the proper doctrines that were to be “emphasized” by the apostolic church.
The Sabbath is one of the most featured topics of Christ in the four Gospels. All the Gospels contain numerous passages where Christ explains, debates, defends, and promotes his NC, reformed Sabbath. Such facts cannot be refuted or denied. So why don’t you stop trying?
Bob said: Note the Great Commission in each of the Gospels, says nothing of the Sabbath. If your answer is "teaching them all things I have taught you," show me the command for Sabbath keeping.
Tom said: Why do you ask a question, and then try to answer it for me? In this case, you did a good job. You realized that what you were trying to prove, could not be proved. Good for you.
Thus it is clear that Jesus’ Sabbath teachings is referenced in the Great Commission. This is because his NC Sabbath is part of his Gospel teaching. He is the teacher, we the students.
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
Jesus, the Lord of the NC Sabbath, teaches a new view of the 7th day Sabbath over and over and over in the Gospels. How can anyone miss such a point? They would have to be blind.
Moreover, Jesus “commands” us to love. But if we love him, it is proven by the way we react to his teachings. Those who call Christ “friend”, and follow what he teaches, are showing love, but those who don’t, are proving that they do not love Christ or God.
John 15:10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
John 15:11 “These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
John 15:12 “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
John 15:13 “Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:14 “You are My friends if you do what I command you.
John 13:35 “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
The FOJ, (friends of Jesus) will pay attention to what he teaches, which includes his repeated instruction about the NC, 7th day Sabbath.
Bob said: Christ only reacts to people's problem with an OC law. Christ's Law takes over after His Death:
Tom replied: Christ did not come to earth to “react” to Judaism. His Gospel teaching is NC in nature, and so too his forgiveness of sin. Christ’s law equals his Gospel teachings, which were delivered prior to the cross, and written down after.
Bob said: Scroll down to the table that gives each, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the Great Commission. No Sabbath is mentioned.
Tom said: One cannot depend on such sites as Wikipedia to understand the Gospel. Rather, one must study the Word with a mind set to understand truth. You are trying to fight truth, and to find reasons why there is no Sabbath for the church. This is the wrong way to approach the Word.
The Risen Christ & The Sabbath
Make a note: After the resurrection, Jesus did make an appearance to John the apostle, which is how the book of Revelation was created.
Do you know what day that was on?
Answer: On the NC, 7th day Sabbath, aka, the Lord’s Day.
Rev. 1:9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
Rev. 1:11 saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”
Note that Jesus commands John to do what is prohibited under the OC Sabbath Law. Writing; which was work, was not allowed on the OC Sabbath. But of course Jesus NC Sabbath is full of good works, and this includes the writing of the book of Revelation. So what would have been sinful in the OC is not in the NC!
The entire book of Revelation was given (and written) to the church on the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath, which means this NC doctrine is part of Gospel eschatology. Part of what the Risen Christ wanted the church to understand.
The Lord’s Day is the 7th day, but it is not like the OC Sabbath of the Jews, where work was prohibited and sinful. It is the Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
Bob asked: Where do you get Jesus command as a New Covenant command? You do not have scriptural basis for it.
Tom said: Jesus Sabbath teaching is part of the four Gospels. Last time I looked, these books were part of New Covenant scripture. And so they are today…
Christ does not teach an OC Sabbath, but a NC doctrine that is predicated on the Priesthood of all Believers as well as his own authority and that of his Father. He staked his credibility as the Son of God on this NC doctrine.
Jesus teaches that his version of the Sabbath is for all mankind, just like the Gospel. Those who truly follow Christ, must do so like sheep, that is, they must only embrace his view of the NC Sabbath, as well as the rest of his Gospel instruction. Those that don’t, are not true followers; they are foolish pretenders.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.
Matt. 7:28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;
Today, the Laodicean Church is blind to the Gospel and deaf to the Words of Christ. This is why the various denominational views of Sabbath are based on sand, including the latest version from the NCT crowd, which is utter nonsense and blasphemous doubletalk.
Even the SDA’s, who claim to have found the correct view of the Sabbath, have bungled this doctrine for all to see, even as they too have embraced one worthless doctrine after another, like Tithe and the IJ, to underscore their confusion.
When the Gospel is correctly understood, and the Word is allowed to determine doctrine, the correct version of the NC Sabbath will emerge for all to see, and so to the genuine Christ. Thus all in the church will be condemned by their false views of the Sabbath, even as all outside the church are also in the same state for their unbelief.
Once the genuine Gospel, with its’ NC, 7th day Sabbath is understood, Gospel Reform will take place in the Church, just as it did in the 1st century. Thus all that determine to follow Christ must repent, realizing that they have been following a false Gospel and an incorrect view of the Sabbath and the law and many other things.
In the last days, the correction of the Sabbath doctrine will become a paradigm shifting event for the Laodicean Church, - just as it was for Judaism. The Gospel and the Reformed Sabbath of Christ work together to change the religious landscape for all to see.
Just as NC Sabbath of Christ created debate, division, and Gospel Reform, so too at the end of the Gospel era. The truth about the NC Sabbath will produce debate and division as well as zealous repentance and Gospel Reform. It will move the church forward, preparing it for the final events, including the great Tribulation, which is so close.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, I thought we were talking about salvation. Neither tithe nor a Sabbath is part of the New Covenant. You spend more time on these two things than on Salvation. I guess I'm not referencing your points, because neither is important to salvation.
If someone wants to pledge 10% to the church on a regular basis, on pledge of their time, one in seven days, it is not salvific, so it is irrelevant If you say the Tithe is not taught by Jesus in the NT just like you taught Jesus reformed the Sabbath, note this text:
Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting THE FORMER.
If you wish to say Jesus reformed the Sabbath by words in scripture about the Sabbath (He never commanded it), the you have to teach the tithe because he told the Pharisees to tithe in this text. Show me where it was done away with??
BTW. Tom, if you shorten your posts, I'll give more responses to your posts.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-05-12 1:45 pm)
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Tom, this verse suggests that the "Sabbath breaking" was only the secondary reason the Jews were angry at Him:
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
You are non responsive to my point previously that Jesus was just correcting the Sabbath corruption of the Pharisees and their rules. Show me one place where Jesus broke the O/C Law regarding the Sabbath. John 5 17 will shoot you down, if you claim God and Jesus kept the Sabbath without working since Creation. It shows you don't grasp the Covenant and the laws in each one.
As far as "the Sabbath is for mankind". They weren't angry at Christ because he stated the Sabbath was for all countries, because if he had they would be angry for this reason, they weren't. They were angry because of His healing on that day. Jesus until His death was preaching to the Jews. Even after His resurrection He told Paul to preach to the Jews first then to the Gentiles.
Acts 18:6 But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”
Was it the Sabbath that caused Paul's anger, no it was the Gospel that Jesus was God and sent to save us from our sins. It was said on the Sabbath. The next place Paul went, it makes it sound like it was the next day he started preaching to the Gentiles. He did not wait for the Sabbath.
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Tom, check out this article:
Mark 2:27 - The Sabbath Was Made For Man
After the Pharisees criticized Jesus for allowing his disciples to pick some grain on the Sabbath day, Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27).Was he saying that God made the Sabbath for both Jews and gentiles—all human beings?
No, that was not the point. Jesus did not say that the Sabbath was made for all people. The Pharisees believed that the Sabbath was for Jews only. If Jesus had said that the Sabbath was made for gentiles, it would have created another controversy.
The Pharisees were concerned about the behavior of the disciples, not the gentiles. If Jesus responded by teaching that the Sabbath was made for everyone, it would have supported the Pharisees' concerns instead of refuting them.
The Pharisees were overestimating the importance of Sabbath restrictions. Jesus responded to them not by expanding the Sabbath, but by reducing it.
We can see what Jesus meant by looking at the next phrase: "and not man for the Sabbath." His point was that the Sabbath was made to serve people, instead of people being created to serve the Sabbath. The Sabbath was a servant, not a master. He was addressing the relative importance of the Sabbath, not which specific people were given the Sabbath.
We could just as easily say, "Circumcision was made for humans, not for angels." This statement is true, but we should not focus on the first half as if it meant that circumcision was made for all humans. It was given to Israel only, not the rest of the world.
Similarly, Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for humans, but he did not say, nor did he mean, that it was made for all humans.
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Tom, do me a favor, don't dismiss this source until you have read what they say about tithing.
Tithng
Many Christian churches are quite willing to do away with Sabbaths and dietary laws, but some are not willing to do away with tithing. They preach that church members should give 10 percent of their income to the church. Why is this old covenant law different — or is it? If we examine this law in the same way that we have examined others, what can we conclude? Let’s look at the evidence, starting in the Old Testament.
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Review
· Israelites were commanded to tithe on crops and give the firstborn of animals.
· The only commands for tithing are in the old covenant.
· In the new covenant, we have better blessings and promises. Shouldn’t we respond with more generosity?
· What did Jesus command about supporting gospel workers?
· Does the Holy Spirit make us more generous, or less?
· Is money an enemy of faith? Which do we want more?
Paul, despite extensive instruction about giving, never recommends tithing — he always bases his appeal on generosity of the heart.
Like I said, read the whole article.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-06-12 1:04 am)
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Tom, Deuteronomy 14:24 said: "then you shall exchange it for money, and bind the money in your hand and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses." Tom, the land of Canaan to Jersualem is too far. Would you rather your pocket be lighter than to carry all those animals and produce? So when you get a chance to visit sda. Be sure to bring some money, not animal and produce!
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Thank you for answering questions for the benefit of others. Tom, please don't get too comfortable, there is more coming.
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