Sola Scriptura: First Century Christians Had Scripture and Living Apos

bob_2 · 05-15-12 3:11 pm

I had always thought God the Father was to be the judge:

John 5:22-27
New International Version (NIV)
22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged [condemned] but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

l_miller · 05-15-12 9:28 pm

Now that is very different from telling someone that they shouldn't dare to call anything wrong. In fact, such reasoning will ultimately lead to calling evil good and good evil. This is because evil cannot be called evil, since such labeling is judgmental. Good is considered evil, because those who are endeavoring to do good by calling something else wrong, are guilty of judging. How could any court of justice operate if all judgment without exception were considered wrong? All criticisms of anything would have to be withheld on the basis that such critiques are judgmental in nature.

l_miller · 05-15-12 10:13 pm

bob2, If there is to be no judging among Christians, how could we even have a legislative or judicial branch of government in this country? How could we be a responsible parent, a good teacher, a fair employer, a helpful counselor, an effective policeman, a powerful preacher, an accurate journalist or even a faithful friend? If judging others is as unchristian as today’s liberal claims it is, how do you explain the often harsh and intolerant language of God’s most faithful from the New Testament?

(John the Baptist to King Herod): “It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother's wife.” - Mark 6:18

(The Apostle Paul): “When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong.” - Galatians 2:11

(Stephen, speaking to the religious leaders before they stoned him to death):

“Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.” – Acts 7:51-53

bshields · 05-15-12 11:52 pm

l_miller wrote:

bob2, If there is to be no judging among Christians, how could we even have a legislative or judicial branch of government in this country? How could we be a responsible parent, a good teacher, a fair employer, a helpful counselor, an effective policeman, a powerful preacher, an accurate journalist or even a faithful friend? If judging others is as unchristian as today’s liberal claims it is, how do you explain the often harsh and intolerant language of God’s most faithful from the New Testament?
(John the Baptist to King Herod): “It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother's wife.” - Mark 6:18
(The Apostle Paul): “When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong.” - Galatians 2:11
(Stephen, speaking to the religious leaders before they stoned him to death):
“Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.” – Acts 7:51-53

We will know them by their fruits. We are merely fruit inspectors.

Those who are doing wrong are condemning themselves. The judging we are not responsible for is judging someone to hell. Certainly we have to have criminal and civil courts. Even then we sometimes mis-judge individuals.

Judging is a very deep subject. I do know one thing, we should think more than twice before we slander someone for something we "think" they did, who they are or what they believe.

A good example of slander was when ellen and company slandered all of Christendom for not believing as the little flock did during the great disappointment and the shut door era. ellen had all the churches going to hell. As far as I know she nor the church never has apologized for doing so. We are still Babylon yet she and the flock were the ones that were wrong and they covered it with the false Investigative Judgment doctrine. The funny thing is ellen documented all this stuff and it is there for the reading. SDAs would love to cover-up all of that, but it is too late. They try not to approach the subject. I was an Adventist for many years before I finally found her writings on the subject.

l_miller · 05-16-12 2:58 am

bob, I hope you are not hiding documents or deceiving the public about the life story of Ellen White. or manipulaing her writings, writing book after book, under her name, which is false and misleading. I'm trying to make a point here, but some of us have not matured over the years, because Most of the questions put to us are hostile, repetitive, and argumentative. I have to ask myself, ( I don't think I'm paying attention), because tom norris has demolished my pet theory. "After Glacier View in 1980, a number of former SDA pastors, such as Richard Fredericks and Dale Ratzlaff, repudiated the 7th day, schoolmaster Sabbath in favor of NCT." So it seem to me ...tom norris is next in favor of NCT.

Last edited by l_miller (05-16-12 8:04 am)

bob_2 · 05-16-12 12:14 pm

I. Miller, say what? You haven't answered my question about your church's believe on Predestination. What I posted was from my study of Scripture, not EGW. Do you find a problem with it. Would be glad to here from you and a response to my question about your church's beliefs. Which church planted the one you attend??

bob_2 · 05-16-12 12:28 pm

Miller you never answered my question following up to your post:

I. Miller, I was surprised to read this that you said:

Welcome to New Covenant Bible Fellowship (NCBF). We started as the result of a church plant in August, 2000. We are an informal family of believers who meet in Tempe, Arizona. We are Reformed in that we hold to the Doctrines of Grace, the Five Points of Calvinism. We also practice believer’s baptism and we teach from the point of view of New Covenant Theology.
Which church planted it? I went to the church's website and wanted to ask if you believe all their beliefs and if so could you explain this one:

My post with questions:

Calling His Elect
God has, before the world began, predestined to eternal life all those who would believe on the
Lord Jesus Christ. He chose them freely, according to the secret counsel of his own pleasure, to
be in Christ and to share in his eternal glory. He did not choose them because he saw that they
would believe, since saving faith is a gift of God. Neither did he choose them because he saw
any goodness in them, because all men come into the world as God-haters and are incapable of
performing any good work. The elect do not live perfect lives after their conversion, but they
will struggle to obey their Lord and will give evidence of a changed life. Ephesians 1:4-5, 11,
John 6:44, Romans 3:10-18, Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans 9:10-13, 1 Corinthians 2:14,
Galatians 5:16-18, Romans 8:1-14, Revelation 2:7

[Sorry how the lines copied over from the church's website, but I think you and others can read it.]

Last edited by bob_2 (05-16-12 2:44 pm)

l_miller · 05-16-12 4:42 pm

New Covenant Theology explains how the Bible fits together. It reveals how the old relates to the new. It touches on such subjects as the covenants, Israel, land, law, and the people of God. In this course there are 26 audio lessons that take you through all the major points of New Covenant Theology. bob shields, Can you share some light on this?

bshields · 05-16-12 5:30 pm

l_miller wrote:

bob, I hope you are not hiding documents or deceiving the public about the life story of Ellen White. or manipulaing her writings, writing book after book, under her name, which is false and misleading.

This is what ellen had to say about the rest of the World (see below). She called Christians Babylon. Christians were beyond saving. ellen's thoughts were diabolically opposed to what Jesus taught.

The Camden Vision 1851

By Ellen G. White

Camden, N. Y. June 29, 1851

"The Lord shewed that he had, in answer to prayer, removed his frown from this band, and that they could have the smiles of Jesus, if they would live very humble, and walk carefully before the Lord, and know that in every step that they took that God was guiding them, and the band would be strong and would be a terror to their enemies; and the band must press together. Then I saw Bro. Wing and Bro. Hyatt—that the enemy had been trying to destroy them—that they were praying for light upon a few texts of Scripture, and the more they prayed the darker they grew, and the enemy was shutting down a network of darkness over them; and just about as they were getting entirely shut in, they were delivered—the net was broken, and they escaped. I saw the true light on these texts &c. I saw that this rebuke was given by Jesus to the Pharisees and Jews, who were filled with self-righteousness, and would only speak to or greet those who were just as full of self-righteousness and hypocrisy as they themselves were; and they entirely neglect and pass by those who; did not make quite as much, and who did not receive greeting in the market as they did. I saw that it did not in any way apply to this time—that we are now living in. Then I saw that Jesus prayed for his enemies; but that should not cause US or lead US to pray for the wicked world, whom God had rejected—when he prayed for his enemies, there was hope for them, and they could be benefitted and saved by his prayers, and also after he was a mediator in the outer apartment for the whole world; but now his spirit and sympathy were withdrawn from the world; and our sympathy must be with Jesus, and must be withdrawn from the ungodly. I saw that God loved his people—and in answer to prayers, would send rain upon the just and the unjust—I saw that now, in this time, that he watered the earth and caused the sun to shine for the saints and the wicked by our prayers, by our Father sending rain upon the unjust, while he sent it upon the just. I saw that the wicked could not be benefitted by our prayers now—and although he sent it upon the unjust, yet their day was coming. Then I saw that scripture did not mean the wicked whom God had rejected that we must love, but he meant our neighbors in the household, and did not extend beyond the household; yet I saw that we should not do the wicked around us any injustice; —But, our neighbors whom we were to love, were those who loved god and were serving him."

(Signed) E. G. White.

I-Miller wrote:

I'm trying to make a point here, but some of us have not matured over the years, because Most of the questions put to us are hostile, repetitive, and argumentative. I have to ask myself, ( I don't think I'm paying attention), because tom norris has demolished my pet theory. "After Glacier View in 1980, a number of former SDA pastors, such as Richard Fredericks and Dale Ratzlaff, repudiated the 7th day, schoolmaster Sabbath in favor of NCT." So it seem to me ...tom norris is next in favor of NCT.

What is your point I? What theory has Tom demolished? Dale is spot right on. Richard was out to make a name for himself. He wanted it big time. Actually I lost track of him. Tom has one foot in the OC and the other one in the NC. He will never be effective.

bob_2 · 05-16-12 9:53 pm

OK, Miller let me clarify further my questions from that paragraph you have not responded to:

1. Who's church plant?
2. I dislike the word Reformed in this part of earth's history. The Presbyterians and others call themselves Reformed because they follow hook line and sinker the "Reformers". Calvin, Luther and others. But why does Tom and others use the word Reform when it just confuses facts about the period of the Reformers that essentially are on the side of Justification, without Sanctification following. Sanctification and it's role in Salvation is where the SDAs can claim some ground in Christendom if they do it properly, if done without understanding, they will create chaos about Salvation's basis.
3. The Five Points of Calvin - have you, Miller studied the Five Points of Calvin? if you have, you should be able to answer my question about Predestination, which you are avoiding. It does away with our free will choice of Jesus Christ and puts God in a position of a "Mad Scientist" betting on how quickly "rats in a maze will conquer that maze."

Miller, I'm waiting for your answer.

Last edited by bob_2 (05-17-12 1:25 am)

l_miller · 05-17-12 12:07 am

I'm not a NCT believer, and because of your behavoir, I wanted to know what food you guys been eating. Check this out: Wed, May 16, 10:30am – 11:30am: From September to May we will be examining some of the key chapters in the Bible. We are beginning with the 17th chapter of the gospel of John. This is a chapter that gives us an insight into the prayer life of Jesus as it specifically relates to his prayer for believers. As always questions and interaction are encouraged. Feel free to disagree, just do it in a manner that honors the Lord. Bob, ask your pastor.

bob_2 · 05-17-12 1:22 am

Ditto, I.miller. I have not been impressed that you are in a position to talk dignity of discourse. Make your points clear, reread and correct so others get the point the first time, eh??? So you don't believe the Five Points of Calvin, this is not the church you attend???

What about Calvin's predestination, do you and your church believe and understand the position or it's just a doctrine you ignore?? and your church teaches NCT but you don't believe it? Do you and bshields go to the same church??? Seems like the way you are talking you do???

IF you are part of the church you say you are, Geoff Volker, Pastor, he is one of the main proponents of NCT. So you attend a church you don't believe in?? Still would like to know who planted the church, you seem reluctant to reveal this, eh??? Could it be Mark Martin's church????

The Five Points of Calvin are illogical. If you study and ask questions you will see the lack of logic.

Last edited by bob_2 (05-17-12 6:10 am)

bob_2 · 05-17-12 6:03 am

Hey all, why aren't we all, SDAs included, studying Paul more than the OT> Note this:

Gal 1: 11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.
18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.

i. miller, why is the scripture not the first place you go for answers. The NT is a gold mine which we should enthusiastically be mining for the truth revealed by Jesus revelation to Paul. What additionally was shown to Paul as promised by God. Why is Ted Wilson restructuring The Great Controversy to The Great Hope? Is the original wrong, hate literature? Ted Wilson I believe thinks this will be the device to increase the church numbers. Or will it show the denomination as not able to find their way around the Bible in a way that shows how the Bible is constructed, by the Abrahamic Promise, and the Old and New Covenants.

Last edited by bob_2 (05-17-12 6:06 am)

l_miller · 05-17-12 10:42 am

bob, you are a moderator on this thread and you are an expert on NCT.

l_miller · 05-17-12 11:13 am

Like I say, I'm not a NCT believer, but check this out: Dedicated to all who have practice on O.T. laws, including Reformed, Covenant Theologians, Seventh-Day Adventists, other Sabbath-Keepers; and Roman Catholics. All Old testament Laws Cancelled. 24 Reason why all old Testament laws are cancelled and all New Testament Laws are for our obedience. By Greg Gibsons. *God's Laws Explained Simple with 7 Diagrams. 20 Charts & 714 verses * The Sabbath, Decalogue, Covenants, Infant Baptism & State- church * New Covenant Theology vs. Covenant Theology & Antinomianism. http://www.amazon.com/ALL-Old-Testament … 9719422203

l_miller · 05-17-12 2:11 pm

With all the confusion of "XYZ" games, can we all get along?

bob_2 · 05-17-12 2:34 pm

OK, so you don't want to answer the question. Be careful with your statements. All I was doing was to get you to verify what you said. That has been the way Atomorrow.net and Atomorrow.com operated. Those that couldn't verify there beliefs when stated usually got on with using the Bible or quit claiming things they "knew". Your Rodney King moment, "Can't we all just get along" would lead to everyone believing claims that can not be sorted out. In Rodney King's case the police deserved what they got, but Rodney after was wanting no one to discuss HIM and his actions. Check here to see how dependable and upright a citizen Rodney was after the incident he is known for: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_Kin … est_events

If you wish not to confirm what your Pastor or your church believes, you are not much better than most tSDAs that can not tell you what they believe.

bob_2 · 05-17-12 2:39 pm

Miller, do you know what antinominism is. If you do NCT claims as Paul did that those under the New Covenant are under Christ's Law.Everyone that knows NCT knows that there are still behavior standards. Why quote someone not of your church to answer questions you have raised, or at least supply quotes from books or studies you believe???? Hope you stick around whether you supply answers as to your beliefs or not, just remember:

1 Peter 3:15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

Last edited by bob_2 (05-17-12 6:46 pm)

l_miller · 05-17-12 4:31 pm

Question: What make you think that I or we are a NCT believers? bob, you are a moderator on this thread and you are an expert on NCT! Is XYZ necessary? I refuse to take the bait!

l_miller · 05-17-12 5:32 pm

Bob, we are going to get up and walk out of this NCT thread. Good luck with your mission.

bob_2 · 05-17-12 6:51 pm

1 Peter 3:15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

Hope you don't walk out, whoever we is?? I just asked questions of what you believed. When you said you belonged to a certain church, I looked and saw Geoff Volker as Senior Pastor. He is a proponent of NCT but also a Calvinist which says a lot. NCT has come out of Reform Churches and the main NCT proponent have had to eliminate Calvinism because it is not Biblical, in my opinion.

bob_2 · 05-17-12 6:54 pm

One last word, judging is talked down by Paul and Jesus on disputable matters. Not things that are clear by scripture, but even Paul shook the dust from his clothes as he was abused and said, Your blood be on your own head. Judgemental, yes. He was God appointed messenger, and he new where the line was in judging and leaving debatable matters alone.

tom_norris · 05-18-12 9:23 am

Bsheilds said: Tom, you are the pot calling the kettle black. Hubert is hell bent on tithing and you are hell bent on some false reformed Sabbath.

Tom replied: Tom Norris is focused on REFORMING Adventism from an OC paradigm into a NC version.

Why is this a bad thing?

The SDA Community has been very wrong to be so legalistic all these years. We all know this, except for a few remaining TSDA’s, like Hub, who have chosen to remain blind.

So what is the cure? What should be done? Destroy everything Adventist? Complain endlessly? No.

The problem needs to be fixed. The OC minded SDA’s need to repent and move forward, becoming NC, Gospel based Adventists.

I am not trying to marginalize or destroy the Advent Movement, like so many angry critics are doing. This is not the answer, nor will it solve anything.

Moreover, Hub is not so much in love with tithing as he is in love with Traditional, OC Adventism. Of which tithe, the IJ, and Sunday laws play such a primary role.

Many TSDA’s will go to their grave embracing OC Judaism, err, I mean OC Adventism. They refuse to repent and embrace the genuine Gospel of Christ. They have chosen Moses over Christ, even the OC Sabbath of the Pharisees.

Behsields said: Hubert, You skipped over the unclean meat issue. Was that intentional? Does the NT re-introduce the laws governing what we eat as far as clean and unclean?

Tom said: Actually, the Jerusalem counsel did try to promote Kosher for all Christians.

Acts 15:19 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,

Acts 15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

Bob said: bshields, I think has pointed out as I have, Jesus was born under the OC, so His statements about tithing that the leaders should tithe as well as be just, this is still Old Covenant times.

Tom said: OC Judaism was based on tithe. When the OC was operating, some Jews were supposed to pay tithe. However, the NC abolished the Levites and tithe, as well as the Temple, etc.

Jesus never paid tithe, and neither did the apostles. There can be no tithing in the church, much less a hierarchy where one group (pastors) pretends they are like the Levites, ruling over all others, - supported by tithe. Such an OC system in the church is wrong.

Bob said: Not until Jesus dies does the New Covenant begin.

Tom said: Wrong. Jesus death ratified the NC, which started with the birth of Christ.

Bob said: Yes, a preacher preaching the gospel should expect to be able to survive with gifts and offerings from those benefiting.

Tom said: This is what Jesus taught. He never taught that his disciples were to practice tithing.

Bob said: I have never condemned tithing. I think it is self defeating.

Tom said: Anyone that does not condemn tithing in the church, has an incorrect view of the NC. There can be no tithing in the church for many reasons. It was banished, along with the Levites. Tithe supports the Temple and its useless OC services. It was unthinkable by those who followed Christ. Which is why the apostolic church never, never, never embraced tithing.

Tithe is not God’s will as the SDA’s incorrectly teach. They are great blasphemers and incompetent guides for all to see.

Bob said: But bshields and Tom are correct, no place in the NC/NT does it state what should be given for Paul's survival or others. They willfully gave but it does not say how it was figured.

Tom said: The NT is clear that there was no tithing in the church. They “shared” – not tithed. Study this point and understand that the facts are clear about how the apostolic church was supported and financed.

No need to pretend the NT has left anything out.

Bob said: But I am more concerned that "another gospel" is being taught by hanging on to the Sabbath fulfilled by our Savior.

Tom said: First off, anyone who fails to condemn tithing in the church, fails to understand the Gospel. Tithe is not a Gospel doctrine, nor will it ever become such. It is a doctrine of OC law.

Second, Jesus did not fulfill the Sabbath. So stop pretending this myth is real. Jesus never taught any such point. But he did teach a reformed doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath for the church.

Third, those who follow Christ must also embrace his teaching about the NC Sabbath as well as tithe and church organization.

While the SDA’s and the Sunday keepers have failed to get this correct, so to the NCT crowd. Their view of the Sabbath is absurd, impossible, and wrong.

When the Gospel is correctly understood, so too the 7th day NC Sabbath of Christ, as well as how to organize and finance the local church.

Bob said: It is so clear in Col 2:16, 17; and 2 Cor 3; and Heb 8:13; and Heb 4 with the uniquely used sabbitismos. Yet for some reason, the NT can not be read clearly by the tSDA so the church does projects like hatcheting up the Great Controversy into The Good Hope, salvaging EGW in this way is almost laughable, yet it is being done rather than preaching pure scripture.

Tom said: Ha! What is clear is this: you refuse to embrace the NC Sabbath of Christ, which is taught in all four Gospels.

The few passages you cite to explain the Sabbath in the NT, are not the primary sources. So stop playing games with the NT. The search for truth must be done honestly or not at all.

This idea that Paul is the Lord of the Sabbath, - is absurd. Jesus is the author of the NC Sabbath. He is the source for this Gospel doctrine.

Go to the Gospels and study the many, many passages where he teaches, defends, and promotes a reformed, 7th day Gospel Sabbath.

All that want to understand the doctrine of the Sabbath IN THE NEW COVENANT, must go to Christ in the Gospels and learn directly from him, the Lord of the Sabbath doctrine.

Bob said: As we have people bragging they gave up sports and other activities to honor the Sabbath. In one case, I heard a father bragging about his son who on Friday evening, played basketball until sundown and came out of the game, to honor the Sabbath hours. Is this not bragging about effort to save oneself with nothing to back it, than OC/OT words???

Tom said: I agree. The SDA’s have embraced the OC Sabbath, not the one that Jesus teaches in the Gospels.

The SDA’s are flaming legalists and Judaizers. This is their problem. And until they repent of their many false views, and only embrace the 7th day Sabbath of Christ, they are doomed.

Anyone that has the wrong Gospel, is also going to have the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath, etc. So while the SDA’s were correct to promote a 7th day Sabbath for the church, they ended up embracing the doctrine of the Pharisees, the enemies of Christ, as well as tithing, and other errors.

The SDA’s have embraced the OC Sabbath, NOT the NC version in the Gospels. THIS is the point that must be understood and CORRECTED.

Bob said: Is this not "another gospel"? Obsolete is the Old Covenant, all of it, not picking and choosing moral over ceremonial.

Tom said: Anyone in the church that embraces the OC Sabbath, as well as OC Tithing, has embraced “another Gospel” and a false Christ. Absolutely. And this is what the SDA’s have done with both hands. (And so too every other denomination as well).

This is why the Advent Movement, which started out Protestant and full of the Gospel, must be reformed. The SDA’s have the wrong 7th day Sabbath, as well as the wrong Gospel. They need to repent.

If the leaders refuse, then let the people find new leaders and thus the Advent Movement will move forward regardless, - to better understand Gospel Eschatology and prepare for the end of the world and the 2nd Coming. This is still the primary mission.

Hub, the TSDA said: Tom, You must be getting mellow in your old age!

Tom said: If you think so, just set up an online discussion with Goldstein or someone from the White Estate. Then you will understand that you have made a wrong assumption.

Besides, the TSDA’s have long ago been defeated. The IJ is a dead doctrine. Anyone with a brain and a Bible has already figured this out by now, which is why so many SDA’s have left…

So the IJ crowd no longer tries to defend TA over here. It is futile. This allows us to focus on other issues, like the NC Sabbath, which all SDA’s also have wrong. Who knew?

In fact, the last time I saw a TA over here was when Bill Sorenson tried to defend the OC Sabbath. He failed for all to see and has not been back since. See for yourself:

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

It seems the SDA’s can no longer defend their view of the Sabbath. They are shocked to see that there is another 7th day Sabbath in the NT. They thought they had found the only one. But the Sabbath of Moses is not the same as the Sabbath of Christ.

So the SDA’s are getting more confused and disoriented as time goes on. They are not even trying to search for new truth. Rather, they are content to waste their time defending error. They are very much like the Jews. Sad.

The NC Sabbath

Now that the TSDA’s have fled public discussion, the primary debate these days is with the anti-SDA crowd that are hell bent on destroying anything associated with Adventism.

This large crowd of former SDA critics is so angry about how they were raised, (legalistically, dishonestly), that they hate anything to do with the Sabbath and thus they have embraced this nonsense called NCT.

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953

It’s just as bad as any myth that the SDA’s have taught. But this crowd is not looking for truth. They seem revengeful against their former cultic masters. But this is not the right attitude to find Gospel truth.

Somehow, I had hoped you might find your way out of cultic Adventism and into the NC version that is trying to emerge. But I guess not.

Hub said: As for tithe, I have given the main documentation that I know of to support tithing from the Old Testament and from the New.  

Tom said: Hub, You are not being honest with the Word or this discussion. I know that you have been involved in numerous tithe discussions where legions of texts were placed on the table.

Moreover, there are numerous web sites and books that deal with this controversial topic, where the discussion is also based on numerous passages that you pretend don’t matter.

So you have ignored all manner of passages about tithe, as if they did not exist. Sad. This is how the TSDA’s deal with everything they don’t like. They just ignore the facts that prove them wrong, and then declare victory. Very dishonest.

Hub said: I don't believe that a Christian can separate the Old from the New Testament and get the message of God for us. 

Tom said: Wrong. The “Message of God” to us, which is the Gospel, can never be correctly understood unless there is a clear SEPERATION between the Old and New Covenants. This is why Luther says the real test of any theologian is how well they SEPARATE Law from the Gospel.

“Whoever knows well how to distinguish the Gospel from the Law should give thanks to God and know that he is a real theologian.”

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/tex … l2-14.html

This is a fundamental point of the Protestant Movement and the fact that you have embraced the opposite view speaks volumes. But this is the way it is with all TSDA’s. While they attack the RC’s, they have also followed their views about many things. Sad.

Listen to Spurgeon:

"There is no point on which men make greater mistakes than on the relation which exists between the law and the gospel.”

“Some men put the law instead of the gospel; others put gospel instead of the law.”

“A certain class maintains that the law and the gospel are mixed...These men understand not the truth and are false teachers."

(C.H. Spurgeon, New Park Street Pulpit, 1855).

The SDA’s represent the third class, above. They have created a blended Gospel, just like the Judaizers in Galatians.

Hub, you have not made any progress in understanding the Gospel have you? You still embrace the same stale theology as before Glacier View. Sad.

Here are your comments from the past, proving that you have not learned anything:

Hub Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 11:28 pm: At JR’s site: Faith and Works Again thread.

Hub said: Justification, sanctification, faith, love. How can a person separate these concepts?

If person is justified, he is a "new creature".

Sounds like sanctification is a part of justification.

Can a person have faith without also having love? The gospel is an integrated whole, not a collection of parts that need to be put together.
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