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Sola Scriptura: First Century Christians Had Scripture and Living Apostles
Kreeft's argument that the first generation of Christians did not have the New Testament, only the church to teach them, overlooks several basic facts. First, the essential Bible of the early first century Christians was the Old Testament, as the New Testament itself declares (cf. 2 Tim. 3:15-17; Rom. 15:4; 1 Cor. 10:6). Second, early New Testament believers did not need further revelation through the apostles in written form for one very simple reason: they still had the living apostles to teach them. As soon as the apostles died, however, it became imperative for the written record of their infallible teaching to be available. And it was — in the apostolic writings known as the New Testament. Third, Kreeft's argument wrongly assumes that there was apostolic succession (see Part Four, next issue). The only infallible authority that succeeded the apostles was their infallible apostolic writings, that is, the New Testament.
http://www.equip.org/articles/a-defense … -scriptura
This can be true if any of us get too astray of the written word
Last edited by bob_2 (03-04-12 9:11 pm)
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You can learn a lot about people by what they throw out. You might uncover some dark secret about them. Plus, they might be throwing out something with value that still works, like a VCR or some porn mags. Only if you're boring. Or put a glassful of water in your mouth and see how long you can keep gargling for. Award yourself extra points for loud and amusing gargling noises, and minus points if you laugh. Only if you're boring. This is quite a tough one - and as many friends as you like can join in.
Sit opposite your friends, and then start humming to yourself as loud as you can. The winner is the person who can keep the straightest face the longest - anyone who laughs is disqualified.
Tip: try varying the tone of your hum to put off your opponent! Welcome, bshields
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Thanks I-miller, but I have been around. Just changed my name.
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Let's see -- I throw out orange peels, nut shells, left over swiss chard, cooked food after two days,and what else? Dove's dark chocolate? No. Soda cans? Very few. Bones? You kidding? No. There are some jars and cans.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Hmmm, buried treasure somewhere. Ha, I found one! ______________________________________________ Bob2 said: You are like a dog with a bone, burying then digging it up, burying then digging it up, by yourself no less.
Tom said: Those who spend their time teaching the Gospel to the blind are not to be called dogs. Nor does this response make any sense or in any way rehabilitate NCT, which has been proven to be garbage that needs to be buried and left in the ground to rot away.
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I have no where else go, so I come here to "Adventist of Tomorrow" to learn. I am very very thankful!
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Miller, stick to the correct thread, you won't be out of context that way. YOUR POINT????
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are you kidding? NCT section is the right the thread, so are you still a moderator, and your church service is on sunday. No need for you to be rude here!
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@Miller,
The rude one is one that takes out of context. Supply it or drop it. I know I said what you quote, but I forget the context. Be polite and supply it. Yes, I am moderator of the New Covenant Theology section.
Play nice and we'll all be the better for it. Mention the post on a certain thread so I can defend my remark
in context.
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k
Last edited by bob_2 (04-13-12 1:41 pm)
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umm, I forgot my password so I'm going have to drop it. the question still remain, that you are a sunday keeper. Are you, and why? thank you.
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I keep every day. Access to Jesus is a daily promise. You have to wait till Saturday to communicate with Jesus, is that what you say. I attended a Saturday keeping church here in town until they ignored how a church was to be organized. Enough said, but if you give me the post you pulled my and Tom's statement from I'll be glad to response to that.
Again, as I have said before, I believe in the Gospel + nothing, Tom and apparently you believe in the Gospel + a Reformed Sabbath, whatever that is. Show me the definition and NC texts to support your position (either prophetic remarks by Christ or texts after His death, the beginning of the New Covenant.
Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ
.
Heb 4:7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.”
Heb 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;
sabbatismos is the word for rest in Heb 4:9, a rest that is different than any rest in the rest of the Bible. Strong's defines it:
the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians
Show me Miller where the Sabbath/Saturday is commanded to be "kept" in the New Covenant.
Last edited by bob_2 (04-14-12 12:22 am)
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Jeremiah 31:31-34 describes the New Covenant.
It is the covenant of grace.
Paul says that the law is needed to define sin.
Jeremiah says that the law is written on the heart in the New covenant.
That law is the ten commandments. There was no other at that time.
The law of love? Of course. Love is described by keeping the ten commandments.
Love God with all your heart, mind, and strength
and your neighbor as yourself.
a good summary of the ten commandments.
A person keeps the seventh day as the Sabbath simply because God said so.
If that is your motivation to keep the Sabbath, you will keep the other nine commandments too.
God is my Redeemer, and my Creator too.
We especially remember that by keeping the seventh day Sabbath.
If you "keep" every day as a Sabbath, then the seventh day has no special significance.
After all, you have to work for a living. We have six days each week to do that.
I admit that one must dedicate every day to Christ -- six for work, and one for fellowship with Him.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Hi Hubert, I just couldn't keep from responding to this post.
Jeremiah 31:31-34 describes the New Covenant.
It is the covenant of grace.
Paul says that the law is needed to define sin.
Jeremiah says that the law is written on the heart in the New covenant.
That law is the ten commandments. There was no other at that time.
You said it is the covenant of Grace and then go on to tell us Grace is the 10 Commandments because there was no other law at that time. What makes you believe Grace is the 10? What Jeremiah said is that God's law would be written on the heart. There is absolutely no reference to it being the 10 Commandments or all 613 laws given to the Israelites. Jeremiah said that the law would NOT be like the covenant made with the Israelites. What you have written is telling us that indeed it is a rehash of the first covenant and instead of being on tables of stone it is the same thing buried deep in the body. Wouldn't that still be the Old Covenant presented in a different way?
The law of love? Of course. Love is described by keeping the ten commandments.
Love God with all your heart, mind, and strength
and your neighbor as yourself.
a good summary of the ten commandments.
Jesus description of love is that we should love others as He has loved us. The 10 cannot hold a candle to this law. It is indeed the part of the Royal law. The other part is we must believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ. This is the law written on our hearts. Better yet read it from scripture for your self. 1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment: We must believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey God’s commandments remain in fellowship with him, and he with them. And we know he lives in us because the Spirit he gave us lives in us. Not only is this law written on our hearts He lives with those who believe and accept Him.
The 10 Commandments have never, in scripture been referred to as the law of love. Keeping the 10 is a misnomer. Everyone who has ever tried has fallen short excepting our Savior. Love is described by believing in Jesus and serving our fellow man. This is well beyond anything in the 10 Commandments. Think about it. Man can keep from killing his brother out of fear and the consequences. The love for others that explodes from within our hearts would nip in the bud any thought of doing the dirty deed. The 10 are not even close to describing love. The 10 describe duty.
A person keeps the seventh day as the Sabbath simply because God said so.
If that is your motivation to keep the Sabbath, you will keep the other nine commandments too.
God is my Redeemer, and my Creator too.
We especially remember that by keeping the seventh day Sabbath.
Your statement should read: The Israelites tried to keep the seventh-day..... I am a sinner Hubert and whatever motivation and works I have is filthy rags. Any law trying I might do sucks (Slang . to behave in a fawning manner). If you are waiting until the 7th day to remember the Creator you are missing out on the 6 other days. "today if you hear His voice...". Even if the Sabbath was an institute we most observe, how could it be honoring Jesus when man continuously falls short of "keeping " it. I guess you can sike yourself into believing you keep it, but all it is is a cover up. Jesus hasn't put Sabbath on our plate to miss use. He has never ask Christians to observe a day.
If you "keep" every day as a Sabbath, then the seventh day has no special significance.
After all, you have to work for a living. We have six days each week to do that.
I admit that one must dedicate every day to Christ -- six for work, and one for fellowship with Him.
Who is it that keeps every day as the Sabbath Hubert. That is a straw man. The only ones that should have held the Sabbath as significant were the Jews who it was given to. Those who are not Jews need not have to remember their release from Egyptian bondage. If i am not mistaken The Sabbath was to commemorate that event. I continue to remember Jesus for delivering me from the bondage of sin and I do that everyday.
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bob2, I too do have accesss to Jesus promise, even staying alert. But To keep every day holy is to mean to observe each and every day as a holy day. I don't get it. Correct me if I'm wrong...I don't have a any day(s) to observe. Should I?
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Hfsturge said:Jeremiah says that the law is written on the heart in the New covenant.
That law is the ten commandments. There was no other at that time. @ Hubert, "The ten commandments" written on the heart???.... Here quoted from Hebrew 8:9 " "It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord". They did not remain faithful to his covenant...So, the question is:what was the covenant, and where is in the the Bible that fit this description? Tom and Dexter can easily pull a rabbit out of that one.
Last edited by l_miller (04-14-12 1:09 pm)
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Miller said:
So, the question is:what was the covenant, and where is in the the Bible that fit this description?
Miller you don't have to look far to have the Bible tell you that the 10 Commandments were the Old Covenant, it's core:
Exodus 34:28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.
and
Deut 5:1 Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the LORD and you to declare to you the word of the LORD, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said:6 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
and
2 Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
Last edited by bob_2 (04-14-12 3:04 pm)
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And Paul names the set of standards the New Covenant has as tenets of a new covenant with better promises:
Hebrews 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
and
Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear
Listen to Paul:
1 Corinthians 9:21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.
It is so clear, I don't know why I didn't see it as a kid in Bible class at our schools.
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Where did bshields get the Royal Law name, here:
James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. ... 12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
There was a change at the cross that involves our Savior, which belittles the reality of the New Covenant, Jesus Himself when we don't talk about Him as the reality of the Sabbath, the One that gives rest from the struggle for salvation:
Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Seventh day Adventists have an opportunity to share this truth with the world as Adventists, not Christians stubbornly hanging on to a misinterpretation of the Word of God. This is why I have stayed with this forum, Adventist for Tomorrow!!!!
Last edited by bob_2 (04-14-12 3:31 pm)
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"You said it is the covenant of Grace and then go on to tell us Grace is the 10 Commandments because there was no other law at that time. What makes you believe Grace is the 10? What Jeremiah said is that God's law would be written on the heart. There is absolutely no reference to it being the 10 Commandments or all 613 laws given to the Israelites. Jeremiah said that the law would NOT be like the covenant made with the Israelites. What you have written is telling us that indeed it is a rehash of the first covenant and instead of being on tables of stone it is the same thing buried deep in the body. Wouldn't that still be the Old Covenant presented in a different way?"
The purpose of the ten commandment law is to point out, or identify sin. Seems that this is needed in our society today.
Grace is the supernatural power of God to enable the Christian to keep the law. It is NOT the law!
The word "law" can refer to the ten commandments, or to the entire corpus of law including ten commandments, ceremonial law, and civil law.
In some references this is grouped under the term "Moses".
The applications of law given in the first five books of the Bible are generally considered the civil law.
The old covenant made with the Israelites consists of the human promises they made in response to "My Covenant" offered to them on Sinai (Exodus 19:4-6)
This was ratified by animal sacrifices (Exodus 24:3-11). After Moses and Joshua were in the mount 46 days, the people broke this covenant by a heathen festival.
There is what is referred to as old, faulty, ineffective, etc in Hebrews 9. Hebrews 9 also refers to the historical old covenant of human promises.
The Ten commandment law is also called "the covenant."
All covenants of God point to this law, as the description of what sin is.
Human beings generally keep this law to the extent needed to stay out of jail.
Where Humans fall short is in the area of motivation, it is hard to avoid expressing the sinful nature of pride and selfishness.
We need grace, the supernatural power of God to lift us out of our pride and selfishness.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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"You said it is the covenant of Grace and then go on to tell us Grace is the 10 Commandments because there was no other law at that time. What makes you believe Grace is the 10? What Jeremiah said is that God's law would be written on the heart. There is absolutely no reference to it being the 10 Commandments or all 613 laws given to the Israelites. Jeremiah said that the law would NOT be like the covenant made with the Israelites. What you have written is telling us that indeed it is a rehash of the first covenant and instead of being on tables of stone it is the same thing buried deep in the body. Wouldn't that still be the Old Covenant presented in a different way?"
The purpose of the ten commandment law is to point out, or identify sin. Seems that this is needed in our society today.
WAS to point out sin. Paul says it has become a tutor to point out sin. Once we realize we are sinners and accept Jesus blood as a permanent disposal for our sin we find that we are no longer under the killing letters. of those commandments. We instead accept the New Covenant which is the covenant of Love 1Cor 13:13 Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love. The 10 commandments pointed out 10 sins. The Bible points out hundreds of sins. How could you ever consider the 10 to be a complete list of sins? Do you really think the 10 are God's character in total? Even the aspects of the book of the law is incomplete in proclaiming all the sins that man commits. Open your mind and allow it to see more of the many sins we have to deal with.
Grace is the supernatural power of God to enable the Christian to keep the law. It is NOT the law!
I am sure you have claimed Jesus Grace and I am just as sure that Grace hasn't kept you from sinning. I am just as sure you have never "kept" the law. Have you ever reminisced after the finish of the Sabbath hours about all you did during the holy hours? Tell me your thoughts don't drift to worldly matters. Tell me you haven't turned your foot and done your own pleasures. You are not alone brother. I got discouraged every week. It got so I became numb and wouldn't allow myself to dwell on all my Sabbath sins. No, Grace isn't about helping you to keep law it is there to cover for what you will continually continue to do, sin. By the way I know of no one who thinks Grace is the law. It is God's goodness to sinful man.
The word "law" can refer to the ten commandments, or to the entire corpus of law including ten commandments, ceremonial law, and civil law.
In some references this is grouped under the term "Moses".
The applications of law given in the first five books of the Bible are generally considered the civil law.
New Covenant law is what Christians should be dwelling on. Old Covenant law was given only to the Israelites. It turned out to be killing letters for them. 1 Cor 3:7-12 Why would Jesus repeat those laws knowing that this time would be just a repeat of the past? Christians are under a new law not found in old covenant law. It is plainly found in 1JN 3:22-23. It is an everlasting law for all mankind. This law explains what commandments John was writing about in the book of Revelation. It is the commandments Christians are under. When I was SDA I assumed there was a 10 in front of commandments. Now my eyes have been opened and I know there isn't. John in 1Jn 3 explains this very eloquently. That is the Christians law and it clears up many misnomers.
In Gal 3 Paul says the law was until Jesus. What is so hard about understanding that? Well maybe I shouldn't say that. When law has been pounded into a person for all the years you and I have been living it would and is hard to recognize what Paul said. A real understanding of Paul's writings changes many errors taught to SDAs.
The old covenant made with the Israelites consists of the human promises they made in response to "My Covenant" offered to them on Sinai (Exodus 19:4-6)
This was ratified by animal sacrifices (Exodus 24:3-11). After Moses and Joshua were in the mount 46 days, the people broke this covenant by a heathen festival.
There is what is referred to as old, faulty, ineffective, etc in Hebrews 9. Hebrews 9 also refers to the historical old covenant of human promises.
Yes it did. I see where it is a two sided relationship. God supplied the words and the people agreed with the promise to keep all the words of the covenant. They failed and then repented. God repeated the same covenant once again. The second attempt lasted for a time. God continued to be gentle with them. Time and time again He let his wayward children have some leash and the would fail each time until God could take it no more because they broke their part of the relationship. Never again would He ever offer his special children a corporate contract. He opened his New Covenant to all who would accept it. Jer 31 says it is not like the one He made with Israel. Hebrews says where their is a change in priesthood there is a change in covenants. Praise the Lord He is the change and we are under the New Covenant of everlasting love.
The Ten commandment law is also called "the covenant."
All covenants of God point to this law, as the description of what sin is.
Hopefully I have shot holes in your theory Hubert. There is nothing in the New Testament that point to the 10 Commandments as being what sin is. As I stated earlier sin covers a much wider range that the 10, not that the 9 moral principles of the 10 are not most important and is part of the law of love. The Sabbath command was directly for the Israelites and even said that it was for remembering their delivery out of Egypt. Was your ancestry part of the flight out of Egypt? Is it pertinent that Gentiles keep an Israelite Holy day? Is there a requirement in the New Testament for any Gentile to observe the Israelite holy day? I hate to bring this up because I know you take offense when anyone refers to the prophet, but it is true that the Sabbath was her baby. When she heard about it she knew it would bind a certain group of people that didn't study scripture enough to know the other side. Maybe she didn't understand the other side although she was raised in a Grace filled church. She had bad feeling towards them for not accepting her and the "revelation" of date setting.
Human beings generally keep this law to the extent needed to stay out of jail.
I refrain from committing sins against my fellow man not because the fear of going to jail but because I love him and wouldn't intentionally do anything to hurt him. There are many more ways to hurt our fellow man than the 6 given in the 10, think brother think!
Where Humans fall short is in the area of motivation, it is hard to avoid expressing the sinful nature of pride and selfishness.
We need grace, the supernatural power of God to lift us out of our pride and selfishness.
That supernatural power is the Holy Spirit and is the promise Jesus gave before He went to Heaven. In 2 Cor 3:7-12 Paul tells us the 10 have faded and has been replaced with the Holy Spirit. The Chapter ends like this: 16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.
The Glory of the New Covenant
7 The old way, with laws etched in stone, led to death, though it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away. 8 Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way, now that the Holy Spirit is giving life? 9 If the old way, which brings condemnation, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with God! 10 In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new way. 11 So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever!
! Jn 3:13 Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.
I pray you will take this post to heart and study to find these truths for yourself.
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Hubb, I should have put some of this post quoted below over here:
Hubb, no "straw man", I recently put a view larger than vegan to a vegan and he got angry and, on Facebook, told me he only wanted his views on his site, which is not the way Social Media works. He should start a blog or the way you started your site, where no one could contest you. It appears you have seen some light in letting individuals question you directly. But why is my view a straw man and your views always right on?? Age??? The name of your site is incorrect. The only Everlasting Covenant is the New Covenant. If we use non-biblical names for things, one creates confusion which I think you have with your site.
Here is an example of your site's error:
1. Jesus is the Lamb of God. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. The Son so loved us that He came, became one with us, and died to pay the penalty of the broken law of God. This is the central focus of the Covenant of God.
2. The Law of God is also called the covenant. It is the law of love as it shows us how to love God and to love each other. It also shows us that true liberty is in keeping His law. It is the basis for the government of God, and a description of what He is like -- a God who is love.http://www.everlastingcovenant.com/Hubb, there are two covenants and a Promise that holds the secret to our Salvation. The Old Covenant is obsolete (Heb 8:13). The New Covenant started at Christ's death. The Abrahamic Promise permits us gentiles to be adopted and all Jews that do not except the Messiah of the New Covenant will be broken branches at the foot of the Vine (Jesus) as spoken of in Romans 11. They can be re-grafted if they accept the Messiah but not until. We are cautioned in Romans 11 not to get too cocky about our status as connected branches, or we can lose that status as the chapter reveals.
Last edited by bob_2 (04-16-12 12:36 am)
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bob_2,"This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and led them out of the land of Egypt. They did not remain faithful to my covenant, so I turned my back on them, says the Lord." (Heb 8:9) So, the question is, what was the covenant, and where is in the the Bible that fit this description?....
Moses was called up the mountain, and was employed as the messenger of this covenant. But this does not mean that moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights....Covenant offered to them on Sinai (Ex 19:4-6) thanks Hubert.
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Miller, reread your post, I need clarification as to your point.
1.So, the question is, what was the covenant, and where is in the the Bible that fit this description?....
Bob_2 said: Already answered, and texts supplied. Your question is redundant. If you don't like my answer, give us yours!!
2. Moses was called up the mountain, and was employed as the messenger of this covenant. But this does not mean that moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights....Covenant offered to them on Sinai (Ex 19:4-6)
Bob_2 said, tell us where Moses went for those forty days and nights. I take the Bible at it's word.
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bob2, Guess what?, Exodus of the 20th chapter, you will not see the10 commandments written on stones! I love to research, and it's fun to gain information that I have never knew before. I was blind and now I see! Some of us had done what tom said.." Post less and study more".
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