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Dexter said: THIS, Bob and Elaine, is what we see in Exodus 19: 1-8. Here is it again:
Ex. 19: 1 In the third month after the Israelites left Egypt—on the very day—they came to the Desert of Sinai.
Ex. 19:2 After they set out from Rephidim, they entered the Desert of Sinai, and Israel camped there in the desert in front of the mountain.
Ex. 19:3 Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said, "This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel:
Ex. 19:4 'You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself.
Ex. 19:5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,
Ex. 19:6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."
Ex. 19:7 So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the LORD had commanded him to speak.
Ex. 19:8 The people all responded together, "We will do everything the LORD has said." So Moses brought their answer back to the LORD.
Observe the following:
1. The Lord delivers the children of Israel from the Egyptian bondage (vs. 1)
2. The people are amazed by God acts and power through the deliverance (vs. 4)
3. The Lord initiates a covenant with them that they will be His treasured possession IF they would obey Him fully and keep His covenant (vs. 5, 6)
4. The people responds and agrees to the covenant (vs. 8)
Notice, that at this point there were no other stipulations added to the covenant. No specific law, no particular decree, no direct command – just the covenant. However, at this point, it didn’t matter what God stipulates going forward. They have already agreed to the terms of the covenant to obey God fully. This is also why the Lord wanted their response to the covenant (vs.8) before proceeding with any other “words of the covenant” or stipulations. He wanted them (and all else reading these words) to be clear on what the actual covenant was that He was making with the children of Israel
In fact, at this stage, it was really an open ended covenant. God could have (and did) added various “words to the covenant” each to address specific particulars to the life of the children of Israel, and the single response from them would have to be “All that the Lord have said, we will do.”
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Your point? If you are trying to say the 10 Commandments were not the covenant, the Bible says different as I pointed out. It was a conditional covenant that the Jews failed at.
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“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.” Rom. 11:8 really got my attention, and I will humble myself.
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One thing that we need to see about the instructions given at Sinai, is that they were detailed.
Miller has given a reasonably detailed description of the Sinai Covenant in Exodus 19:1-8.
Let's look a little further:
The covenant initiated in Exodus 19:4-6 began with a statement of what God had done for Israel in delivering them from Egypt.
This was a promise of grace. "Now therefore" refers back to this promise of grace, and proceeds to list three wonderful promises from God.
Moses presents these words to the elders of Israel, and they respond with "All that the Lord hath said, we will do." Exodus 19:8.
God, knowing of their ignorance and weakness, comes down on the mountain to demonstrate His majesty and holiness.
He speaks the Ten Commandments in their hearing.
Moses is called into the mountain again for further instructions, which include more details about the covenant.
The covenant is ratified by animal sacrifices. People repeat their promises twice more. Moses sprinkles blood on the people and the book.
Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and the elders meet with God and eat the covenant meal.
Moses and Joshua are called into the mountain. They wait for God six days. Moses communes with God 40 days and 40 nights.
God gives him the Ten Commandments, written on tables of stone by His own finger.
This is a detailed picture of the "Historical Old Covenant."
When Moses and Joshua came down from the mountain, they found the people in a riotous, heathen festival - worshiping a golden calf.
After just 46 days, their covenant of human promises was broken.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Miller and Hubb, if there were no Sabbath in heaven, would you want to go??? If Jesus is our Sabbath Rest and we are with him always, what's the point. No darkness, no evening and a morning, no getting tired.
It is striking to me, those that insist the New Covenant has a Sabbath, should we not read the New Covenant, after Jesus death, to see what it is. Paul was given visions for 3 years by Jesus himself as to what the Gospel is and contains. Why do we talks so little about the New Covenant and more about the OC/OT that is obsolete. Who says there has to be a Sabbath in the New Covenant and not a Savior that fulfills all symbols and shadows of the OC/OT. The Greatest Commandment is not the Sabbath, 4th Comandment. At least that is not the one He stated, but we have an SDA prophet that says her vision of the 10 Commandments showed a halo around the 4th Commandment? Who is right, the OC being fulfilled and obsolete, or the SDA church putting it right out in their name, that IT IS the Greatest Commandment, OR a disconnect from what is obsolete to a New Covenant, with better promises, and Christ's Law????
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This is a detailed picture of the "Historical Old Covenant."
When Moses and Joshua came down from the mountain, they found the people in a riotous, heathen festival - worshiping a golden calf.
After just 46 days, their covenant of human promises was broken.
Then what happened Hubert? Did God make an entirely New Covenant with Israel? Were the words of the first covenant any different from the first one on stone and in the book? The covenant given to all mankind is new. We do not look to the old for instruction, we look to the new. Some of the same material could be rewritten in the new, but it would be revealed in the new. SDAs assume the Sabbath is revealed in the new. They assume tithing is renewed and they assume the unclean food laws of the old are revealed. Please show us where these laws are revealed in the new. We certainly can show you where they are not. The only nail you can hang your hat on is ellen. The only people who recognize her are SDAs. Why has God hidden her from the masses if she has revealed and trumped what scripture has told us already?
Why do SDAs automatically put a 10 in front of any verses with the word commandments?
What happened to Don Sands? I pray nothing. He hasn't been posting for a long time.
Last edited by bshields (04-19-12 8:57 am)
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Bob,
For once, you are right. God DID give to all mankind after sin, a NEW covenant. The covenant of redemption IS the New covenant. It was given to Adam and Eve, to Abraham, and to Israel at Sinai. The elders of Israel, in their promises "All that the Lord hath spoken we will do" were a throw-back to the old covenant. They bypassed the preamble of grace to the covenant and the law (Exodus 19:4; 20:2).
About Ellen, you are not required to believe anything she says. Why are you so hostile to her? Must have a guilty conscience! Why not just pick up any of her books and just read it for information? About the ten commandments, do you think it is OK to worship images, swear, kill, lie, steal, commit adultery? would you like neighbors who did those things? I bet that is why you moved out into the country! Come to think of it, the real problem is keeping the Sabbath. Strangely, most people are willing to throw out the entire Old Testament in order to get rid of the Sabbath.
Why not take a different approach. Decide that you want to know God, have faith in Him, to avail yourself of grace to chance your life, and to prepare for His soon return. Ask the Holy Spirit to give you peace as you just read the Bible for what it says.
Maybe you do all these things. Then find a church that believes and preaches what the Bible says. That is what I do, and I pray that you will find this way too.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Hubb, from reading your application in your forum, I knew you were mixed up, but now I know that you are. Clear texts in the NT under the NC read so clear but the OT and EGW hold you back. Don't make me the bad guy when you put out what isn't there. More than I have said here that there are more than 10 sins that one needs to be aware are wrong, why are you not going as God/Jesus directs. EGW is wrong when she declares the greatest commandment the 4th when Jesus never did though directly asked. Hubb, you can try to mock your way out of this discussion, but you and your site are flat out in contradiction of the Bible. I know you have put your neck out their thinking by yourself, but you don't have to read to far to see the confusion you set up with your theory. You mock rather than respond to those with clarity, best wishes, old gent.
Last edited by bob_2 (04-23-12 5:03 pm)
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Hubb, so others can truly see you are assuming things that aren't true, I don't live out in the country. Never told you that,but you put forth untruth with your assumption. That is what is done when one does not see the disconnect at the cross. You can only see YOUR truth if it acts like you have set it up, not as the Bible has. It is wrong for you to assume also where I am in my relationship with God. ASSUME, you know what it does, makes an a** out of you. The New Covenant has a time table and you have it wrong. If the followers of God in the OC had faith in God/Jesus as did Abraham, their sins will be covered, but you garble the message when you don't tell the story as it unravels with Paul as the message of God. Little more careful reading and less assuming. Age doesn't cure error. Think for yourself, not by yourself.
Last edited by bob_2 (04-23-12 5:16 pm)
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Sorry! Sorry! Sorry!
I know Bob Shields personally, and I was responding to his last post.
Some of what I said applies to you (Bob2). In your hostility to what I believe, you need to be very specific and give documentation. It is not enough to just say "you are wrong."
Last edited by hfsturges (04-23-12 7:29 pm)
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Hubb, bshields and I see things pretty much the same way. Examples have been given but will try to spell it out more clearly. I don't think you can read his and my post without seeing where you are off. Not hostile, just don't understand why clear verses automatically get the OT and EGW filter put to it. Read the NT/NC with a clear eye, it's not that hard. Why do you assume a day of rest is part of the NT when it is so clear the reality is found in Jesus, our true rest. You cling to the day like a bad habit. When the Bible is so clear that Jesus is our rest, and we can worship on any day the congregation wants to get together. I attended church this last Saturday on Romans 3 to 8 at http://www.gracestl.org/ Check out their beliefs and that they worship on Saturday.... and Sunday and Wednesday..... and again.
Romans 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
If there was no making the OC obsolete, the above could not happen. We can boast of our condition through our Lord Jesus Christ gift of salvation through his blood, His death and His life that ushered in His Kingdom the New Covenant. Without this, you stay back with all the sacrifice of animals that do nothing for you by themselves. The Sabbath was only one of the Appointed Festivals of Lev 23 that are fulfilled by Jesus as Col 2:16-17 says. If you depend on the Sabbath for your salvation, what do you have, not much more than animal sacrifices and the Festival days of Lev 23.
Last edited by bob_2 (04-24-12 12:57 am)
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Welcome to New Covenant Bible Fellowship (NCBF). We started as the result of a church plant in August, 2000. We are an informal family of believers who meet in Tempe, Arizona. We are Reformed in that we hold to the Doctrines of Grace, the Five Points of Calvinism. We also practice believer’s baptism and we teach from the point of view of New Covenant Theology.........sorry bob shield, thanks , but no thank you. I'm comfortable with Adventist of Tomorrow.
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Welcome to New Covenant Bible Fellowship (NCBF). We started as the result of a church plant in August, 2000. We are an informal family of believers who meet in Tempe, Arizona. We are Reformed in that we hold to the Doctrines of Grace, the Five Points of Calvinism. We also practice believer’s baptism and we teach from the point of view of New Covenant Theology.........sorry bob shield, thanks , but no thank you. I'm comfortable with Adventist of Tomorrow.
No thank you for what? What makes you comfortable with AT? Are you tuned in?
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Bob,
For once, you are right. God DID give to all mankind after sin, a NEW covenant. The covenant of redemption IS the New covenant. It was given to Adam and Eve, to Abraham, and to Israel at Sinai. The elders of Israel, in their promises "All that the Lord hath spoken we will do" were a throw-back to the old covenant. They bypassed the preamble of grace to the covenant and the law (Exodus 19:4; 20:2).About Ellen, you are not required to believe anything she says. Why are you so hostile to her? Must have a guilty conscience! Why not just pick up any of her books and just read it for information? About the ten commandments, do you think it is OK to ? would you like neighbors who did those things? I bet that is why you moved out into the country! Come to think of it, the real problem is keeping the Sabbath. Strangely, most people are willing to throw out the entire Old Testament in order to get rid of the Sabbath.
Why not take a different approach. Decide that you want to know God, have faith in Him, to avail yourself of grace to chance your life, and to prepare for His soon return. Ask the Holy Spirit to give you peace as you just read the Bible for what it says.
Maybe you do all these things. Then find a church that believes and preaches what the Bible says. That is what I do, and I pray that you will find this way too.
Hubert, I ask you some very pointed questions, why did you ignore them and come back with accusations. That is not like the Hubert I once knew. Let me try again, now that you know I really want answers and not a lecture with accusations. Many SDAs are willing to lecture me. You know some that have. None gave me any answers. I wish I could replay some of the scenes for you. Your post to me would fit in nicely with the others scenes. If you do not answer I will assume you don't have scripture.
SDAs assume the Sabbath is revealed in the new (testament). They assume tithing is renewed and they assume the unclean food laws of the old are revealed. Please show us where these laws are revealed in the new. We certainly can show you where they are not. The only nail you can hang your hat on is ellen. The only people who recognize her are SDAs. Why has God hidden her from the masses if she has revealed and trumped what scripture has told us already?
Why do SDAs automatically put a 10 in front of any verses with the word commandments?
And to answer your standard SDA questions about "worship images, swear, kill, lie, steal, commit adultery" Those were the things that convicted me of my worthlessness. They were the laws that brought me to my knees. They were the laws that told me I am a sinner and lost. Those were the laws that damned me to hell. Jesus love led me to the Bible and then to the Cross. I have been born again and the Holy Spirit lives in me. I can now understand scripture that while a SDA I could only wonder about. I can and do read Galatians and understand that the law was until Christ and that Christians are not under the law of Moses. Christians are not subject to OC ritual law including the ritual Sabbath of the Israelites only. I know that the law of love planted in my heart takes away the desire to "worship images, swear, kill, lie, steal, commit adultery". The law of love tells me much more about all kinds of sin that is in the world, not just the ten that were written on cold hard stone. They were negative laws that described duty not love. They were "thou shalt nots".
When I was baptized in the SDA church I was ask if I believed and would follow the 17 fundamental doctrines of the SDAs, I agreed. When I could no longer believe some of those fundamental doctrines I broke the agreement. I am not like most SDAs who brake those fundamental doctrines, I did the respectable thing and ask to be taken off the books. Now you tell me that it is okay to not believe in ellen. How many other things have you compromised Hubert? How many more things has the GC compromised in order to maintain membership? Before I left the church I was head deacon for a few years. I told the pastor and head elder I couldn't take that job because I didn't believe in tithing. Guess what? They begged me to take it I was wrong to have taken the job and in fact I should have left the church when I learned that tithing is not a requirement for believers. The SDA church is corrupt from the laity up and I know it. In your heart you do too, but are at a loss to do anything about it, too bad.
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I. Miller, I was surprised to read this that you said:
Welcome to New Covenant Bible Fellowship (NCBF). We started as the result of a church plant in August, 2000. We are an informal family of believers who meet in Tempe, Arizona. We are Reformed in that we hold to the Doctrines of Grace, the Five Points of Calvinism. We also practice believer’s baptism and we teach from the point of view of New Covenant Theology.
Which church planted it? I went to the church's website and wanted to ask if you believe all their beliefs and if so could you explain this one:
Calling His Elect
God has, before the world began, predestined to eternal life all those who would believe on the
Lord Jesus Christ. He chose them freely, according to the secret counsel of his own pleasure, to
be in Christ and to share in his eternal glory. He did not choose them because he saw that they
would believe, since saving faith is a gift of God. Neither did he choose them because he saw
any goodness in them, because all men come into the world as God-haters and are incapable of
performing any good work. The elect do not live perfect lives after their conversion, but they
will struggle to obey their Lord and will give evidence of a changed life. Ephesians 1:4-5, 11,
John 6:44, Romans 3:10-18, Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans 9:10-13, 1 Corinthians 2:14,
Galatians 5:16-18, Romans 8:1-14, Revelation 2:7
[Sorry how the lines copied over from the church's website, but I think you and others can read it.]
Last edited by bob_2 (05-10-12 5:50 pm)
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Bob Shields,
You have presented many questions that would take me a long time to answer. I would be glad to answer, but from your posts you are convinced already that you are correct on a number of things, and whatever I say will not change that. I will just make a few statements:
I believe that the Old Testament is still the Word of God and is the basis for what is said in the New Testament.
I believe that Jesus is coming soon, and that He gave Ellen White messages to help establish the Seventh-day Adventist church.
There are a number of well educated people who are impressed by what she had written.
I believe that the Everlasting Covenant, the New Covenant, the Abrahamic Covenant, are all terms used for the covenant of God, and that God's people have been under this covenant all through the history of mankind. As part of this covenant is the Law of God best known as the Ten Commandments. It is the eternal law of God on which His government is based. When God made mankind in His image, this law was put into his heart.
God gave man free will, but free will cannot exist in harmony with other sentient beings except within the boundaries of law. The law is HOLY, and JUST, and GOOD.
Tithing is a fair and organized way to support the church of God. It is supported in the New Testament but not explained in detail, as the New Testament writers always assumed that the Old Testament was still the Word of God.
Ellen White was especially given to the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Even here, it is not a required belief, according to my memory. I do believe that it is especially helpful to those who are preparing for the end times and the second coming of Christ. People who know and believe in the writings of Ellen White will of necessity have a different world view than those who do not. Significant portions of this world view have already occurred, and more is definitely seen in the near future. (e.g. that the United States of America will eventually repudiate its constitution).
I can give documentation for all this, but where I have already given documentation, you have not been willing to see it.
I have never made an accusation that you are not a Christian, nor that you are lost. I am not God and I am not to judge.
The things I list above are what help me in my walk with Christ, and that show the road we will be traveling.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Bob Shields,
You have presented many questions that would take me a long time to answer. I would be glad to answer, but from your posts you are convinced already that you are correct on a number of things, and whatever I say will not change that. I will just make a few statements:I believe that the Old Testament is still the Word of God and is the basis for what is said in the New Testament.
I believe that Jesus is coming soon, and that He gave Ellen White messages to help establish the Seventh-day Adventist church.
There are a number of well educated people who are impressed by what she had written.
Hubert, one thing I have come to understand is the fact that there are many very well educated people who are impressed by the Mormons, Catholics, SDAs, JW's, Church of Christ and etc. I am not impressed by any of those folks impressions. I do know that SDAs try very hard to impress others. Many are well educated like yourself.
Hubert, I didn't ask you "many" questions. The questions I did ask shouldn't take but minutes if you believe they are in scripture. I left the church because I didn't believe there are answers. You are glued to thee church because you must believe there are answers. Why do you refuse to take a few moments and prove me wrong? Here they are again: SDAs assume the Sabbath is revealed in the new (testament). They assume tithing is renewed and they assume the unclean food laws of the old are revealed. Please show us where these laws are revealed in the new.
I believe that the Everlasting Covenant, the New Covenant, the Abrahamic Covenant, are all terms used for the covenant of God, and that God's people have been under this covenant all through the history of mankind. As part of this covenant is the Law of God best known as the Ten Commandments. It is the eternal law of God on which His government is based. When God made mankind in His image, this law was put into his heart.
Surely you really know that the 10 Commandments were given to Israel don't you? Deut 5 tells us it was not given to anyone else and it was for them specifically. If has specific terms found in the forth commandment and the prelude to the 10. Surely you know what Paul says about the law. You know, it was until Jesus. Surely you know that the law was fulfilled by Jesus and we are not under it. Surely you know that Jesus gave us a new command that we love all mankind as Jesus loves us. Surely you know that the 10 Commandments are just the tip of the iceberg as far as laws are concerned. Jesus even added His thoughts to some of the laws, like adultery in our minds. Before Jesus apparently it wasn't a sin to think about committing adultery.
How many people do you know ever come to the conclusion of the Sabbath without being convinced by someone else? Were Ellen White, James White, and all the shut door folks convicted of the Sabbath because it supposedly is written on the heart or was it presented to them by one of the shut door members who heard about it from some other person? SDAs spend millions and countless hours trying to convince people to observe the Sabbath. Only a few fall for the theory. If it were written on the heart and the Holy Spirit is guiding each person wouldn't you think more would become convicted? It didn't take me long after I became a Christian to be convicted to love all people. It took years to finally be convinced to observe Sabbath. I did consent because I didn't understand the covenants. I didn't understand it was a law for the Israelites and part of their covenant.
God gave man free will, but free will cannot exist in harmony with other sentient beings except within the boundaries of law. The law is HOLY, and JUST, and GOOD.
Yes it was. It has its use today to convict the sinner of the need of Grace. The law is also a killer and all fall short and are doomed by it.
Tithing is a fair and organized way to support the church of God. It is supported in the New Testament but not explained in detail, as the New Testament writers always assumed that the Old Testament was still the Word of God.
What is fair about tithing Hubert? I guess if we are all doctors bringing in $100,000 or more a year $10,000 wouldn't lower your lifestyle. Say you only made $10,00 a year and out of that measly amount you had to cough up $1,000. Would you boast fairness then? God never did that to the Israelites Hubert. Only the wealthy farmers paid tithe. The worker who didn't own cattle or crops didn't pay tithe. The SDA Church asks all members to pay tithe. God never ask such a thing. Jesus would not have been a tithe payer Hubert. Do you realize that? The disciples wouldn't have payed it either. Paul wouldn't have payed it. In fact, after the Temple fell the tithing system was just a remembrance. Again, where does the NT support the SDA tithing system?
Ellen White was especially given to the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Even here, it is not a required belief, according to my memory. I do believe that it is especially helpful to those who are preparing for the end times and the second coming of Christ. People who know and believe in the writings of Ellen White will of necessity have a different world view than those who do not. Significant portions of this world view have already occurred, and more is definitely seen in the near future. (e.g. that the United States of America will eventually repudiate its constitution).
I believe your memory is lacking there my friend. We all agreed to uphold the 27 fundamentals. Ellen was one of those fundamentals.
About the end times. How silly it would look if SDAs started fleeing to the mountains today. They could be tracked in a minute. There is no sure place to hide. Ellen didn't know what she was talking about. From the looks of things she got it wrong about the Pope too. It looks like the Muslims are going to be our big problem. Ellen has a poor record of predicting the future. If I were you I wouldn't use her predictions to hang your hat on or how to prepare for the future. I personally trust in Jesus to care for my needs and if I am slaughtered by the enemy I know I have a better home in His Kingdom. This life is not worth worrying about. This is what ellen should have taught. At least she would have had a better batting average than what she now has.
I can give documentation for all this, but where I have already given documentation, you have not been willing to see it.
I have never made an accusation that you are not a Christian, nor that you are lost. I am not God and I am not to judge.
The things I list above are what help me in my walk with Christ, and that show the road we will be traveling.
You have given me your opinion Hubert. When I presented ellen statements you were never able to give a satisfactory answer. Now you are using the fact that you answered me and I didn't accept your answer to come back into the fold as an excuse not to answer my questions now. Remember the lurkers to these threads are wanting answers too. When you let me down you also are letting them down.
Last edited by bshields (05-12-12 12:27 am)
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Hubb, in the back and forth I see with you and Bshields, I don't see a discussion. I don't see scripture plain and clear from you. You should make a sentence and give a scripture to back the concept. Your view, even with plain scripture is bias from your years of indoctrination. Agree on a version of the Bible and let that plain word speak for itself. Just because EGW has an idea of end times, doesn't make it Biblically based. Take Heb 8:13 and you have to stop dead in your tracks and say, WHAT HAVE I BELIEVED BLINDLY????
Or
2 Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?
Is that not the Old Covenant with the Decalogue engraved in stone that is now obsolete with a New Covenant in place, one with better promises???
Heb 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
Last edited by bob_2 (05-12-12 1:50 am)
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There is a common teaching that the Law of God must be preached in order for the Gospel to be preached. In other words, that before you evangelize someone, that is, give them the Good News of Jesus Christ, and His death on the Cross for sins, and His resurrection, you must first preach the specific Laws of God to show them that they have sinned. Usually these specific Laws of God are given as the Ten Commandments.
But is this true? Do we need to preach specific Laws of God in order to preach the Gospel?
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When people come to the reality that they are condemned to death and reach out for the life saver they are already aware of the law that has them in that condition. Those people do not need more law as you plainly stated I_miller, they need Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Bible. We can be of service to them in many ways.
Something I have given great thought to is that when people realize the need to come to Christ and believe in Him, they never proclaim any need to observe a Sabbath. The only way people come to believe the Sabbath is when some Sabbath thumper drills that need into them. Those disappointed by the failure of Jesus return in 1843-44 didn't suddenly come to the realization of the need to observe a day. Someone drilled that thought into their minds. Many saw through that misapplied law. They knew only Israelites were commanded to observe a day. So it is today, someone is drilling an OC law into the unsuspecting and some fall for the ruse. The good news is that we formers are out there proclaiming the real truth and many are seeing the Light. Praise the Lord for His goodness.
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Hubert wrote:
I can give documentation for all this, but where I have already given documentation, you have not been willing to see it.
I have never made an accusation that you are not a Christian, nor that you are lost. I am not God and I am not to judge.
The things I list above are what help me in my walk with Christ, and that show the road we will be traveling.
Being a thoroughly indoctrinated SDA you have to believe I am lost. The prophet has spoken and you believe all she said. She said there is no hope for those who leave the "faith". Yes, you may have never said such a thing because you are a gentleman, but I am sure you know what the prophet said. If for some reason you really do believe I am saved then you need to deal with the prophet's writings.
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Bob Shields,
Here are the specific questions you wanted New Testament documentation for:
“They assume tithing is renewed and they assume the unclean food laws of the old are revealed. Please show us where these laws are revealed in the new. We certainly can show you where they are not.”
I need to emphasize again that the Old Testament is still the Word of God. New Testament writers quoted often from the Old. Jesus’ incarnation, life, crucifixion, and resurrection are all prophesied in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New.
Tithing was first ordained in the Old Testament to support the work of the Levites and the Priests.
21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation. Numbers 18:21 (KJV)
26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD'S heave offering to Aaron the priest. Numbers 18:26, 28 (KJV)22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. Deuteronomy 14:22 (KJV)
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. Malachi 3:8-10 (KJV)
These last two references strongly emphasize tithing. I was not able to find that people were cut off from the camp, or stoned for not tithing. As a corollary, I have never seen an SDA member dis-fellowshipped for failing to pay tithe, and 1/3 to 1/2 of the members do not pay tithe. Tithing is one of the 27 fundamental doctrines, but is not a test of faith.
These are the New Testament quotes that I find for tithing:
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Matthew 23:23 (KJV)
1 Corinthians 9:1-14
In this rather long passage, Paul insists that he has a right to be supported in the work he does to raise up and support the churches. He does not ask for any support as he does not want this to become a hindrance to his work (vs. 12). He does not specifically mention tithe, but based on the passages above, it is reasonable to include tithe as part of the support for evangelists.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12 (KJV)
This verse points out that the word of God is sharp, and divides soul and spirit, joints and marrow, and discerns the thoughts and intents of the heart. God does not “prove” things in the way that we have come to expect. God “declares” His being, and His truth. This means that we must first believe, then we will understand.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Hub,
Nice to see you here. It has been a long time. I remember that JR thought very highly of you. You were a frequent poster in the old days and I am sad to see you still mindlessly clinging to the error of tithe.
I would have expected you to have matured over the years, and to consider the mountain of facts that prove tithing false.
Your feeble attempt to defend this false doctrine by pointing to the OC and declaring your views are reasonable, is laughable. The apostolic church never practiced tithe, and neither did Jesus. The NT does not teach such a doctrine, and it is blasphemy for anyone to make such a statement.
There is no more of a basis to embrace tithing in the church than ritual circumcision or the Sunday Sabbath.
Those who pay tithe in the SDA church are making it clear that they do not understand the Gospel, nor do they want to. They are showing their loyalty to a denominational hierarchy that has repeatedly rejected the Gospel and that cannot be honest about church history or the Word.
Those that pay tithe are the modern day equivalent of the Circumcision Party in the apostolic church. They are playing the part of the Judaizers, who also misunderstood the Gospel and elevated the law above the Gospel teachings of Christ.
Which is to say that the book of Galatians condemns the SDA’s. They have followed the bad behavior of Peter and James. The words of Paul condemn the SDA’s, just as they did Peter and James.
Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
I did not mean to interrupt, nor is it necessary to get into any discussion about tithe with you on this thread, - because you are a gone case. You have long ago handed your brain over to the cultic SDA’s, much like a Mormon or a JW has also done.
Once indoctrinated, it is useless to discuss facts. Such people have an agenda that precludes them from being honest or open to truth. They have all the answers and everyone else is wrong, regardless what the NT may show. They are beyond the reach of reason, the Word, and the Spirit.
Such a cultic and Pharisaical attitude is poison, and it is obvious that you are a heavy drinker of this SDA cool aid, which is why you are a hardcore and proud Jew, err, I mean TSDA. Ready to defend false doctrine, regardless of the facts. Sad.
Many TSDA’s refuse to repent on any major point, determined to stay faithful to TA until they die. This is sad and delusional. And very risky. If the Gospel is true, you will not be saved any more than the Judaizers in the early church, who made so much trouble for Paul.
Don’t get me wrong. If you think you can defend SDA Tithing, I will be happy to met you on the Tithe Thread and give you some Gospel instruction about why this is an impossible and dangerous doctrine that cannot be supported by anyone that understands the New Covenant. But unless you are ready to be honest with the NT, there is no point.
The Fraud of Church Tithing
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=239
The same goes for the OC, SDA Sabbath, but that would be on another thread.
SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836
In conclusion, it is sad to see how stubborn and disconnected the aging TSDA’s remain. Even though they see the church self-destructing, and see that there is great need for Gospel Reform, they continue to embrace the very doctrines that are destroying the Advent Movement, like the IJ, Tithe, and the OC Sabbath.
These are all very false doctrines that will ruin Adventism if not repudiated.
Adventism can only be saved when the SDA’s admit their errors and repent. Tithe is one of their greatest errors, proving that they do not understand the Gospel.
The modern SDA’s have chosen the OC over the NC, money, over the Gospel. Thus they are truly naked and blind for all to see. It is not a pretty sight.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Hubert, I have pasted a few references to the tithe below. The tithe was paid in crops and/or livestock. Never was it paid in cash. That was the reason for a storehouse. The Levites stored the tithe third year for their use and for the foreigners, orphans, and widows. Does ellen ever say the tithe should be given to the that group? As I stated before only the Israelites who grew crops and livestock paid the tax. You, as a doctor, would not have been subject to paying it. Tithe thumpers never tell us this fact when they quote Malachi 3:10. Also, if you look at the people Malachi was addressing you will note that he was addressing the priests not Israel as a whole. The blessing God would give was for crops. It is disgraceful how the tithe thumpers use that verse. It has no reference to you or me.
After the temple was destroyed there was no place to give the tithe. the system was broken and the tithing system became history. Only those who do not trust the laity to give because of their love for the Lord use a modified false system and call it tithing. Many are like sheep and pay it without ever finding out about the real truth. Ellen never found out about the real truth and coerced her flock into paying it. She even went so far as to tell pastors they were going to lose their eternal inheritance.
Remember I was SDA for many years. I know a little bit about what happens when someone doesn't cough up 10%. You are correct, they don't dis-fellowship, but they won't allow them to take an active roll in leadership. If they dis-fellowshipped all the non tithe payers, only a third of Adventism would still be on the books. The hierarchy is between a rock and a hard place.
Jesus admonition in Matthew to the pharisees about tithing was what He should have done after all they were under the law of Moses at that point. Notice though they brought their crops not money. That part had not changed. Only after the temple was destroyed was money collected. That was the practice of the Christian Church. Tithing was never a part of the early church.
Deuteronomy 26:12
“Every third year you must offer a special tithe of your crops. In this year of the special tithe you must give your tithes to the Levites, foreigners, orphans, and widows, so that they will have enough to eat in your towns.
2 Chronicles 31:5
When the people of Israel heard these requirements, they responded generously by bringing the first share of their grain, new wine, olive oil, honey, and all the produce of their fields. They brought a large quantity—a tithe of all they produced.
Nehemiah 10:37
We will store the produce in the storerooms of the Temple of our God. We will bring the best of our flour and other grain offerings, the best of our fruit, and the best of our new wine and olive oil. And we promise to bring to the Levites a tenth of everything our land produces, for it is the Levites who collect the tithes in all our rural towns.
Matthew 23:23
“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the law—justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things.
Matthew 23:22-24 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
Last edited by bshields (05-12-12 9:47 pm)
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