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Old Abe,
I can only present it as I see it. In describing the destruction of Jerusalem in Luke 21:20-25 Jesus uses the phrase "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." I am not able to find anything about the Jews to occur after this "time." In fact, it speaks of signs in the sun, moon, and stars, and of the second Coming of Jesus as events to follow. In this context it seems to me that when the "times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" is speaking of the end of the world, and the second coming of Christ.
Daniel 8:13 says: "...How long shall be the vision concerning the daily (sacrifice), and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?" This is followed by the 2300 day prophecy of Daniel 8:14.
In these two passages the similar words are used -- "trodden under foot." However, the context is much different and probably they have no relationship to each other. To emphasize this point, Daniel 9:25 gives the beginning date for the 2300 day prophecy to be the date of the decree of Artaxerxes (457 bc; Ezra 7) at which time Israel re-gained its autonomy.
I realize that there is controversy on this point. I would add that Daniel 9:21-23 speaks of the angel Gabriel being sent to Daniel to finish explaining the vision of 2300 days. This would then place Daniel 9:25 as an explanation of the beginning date for thjs time period.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Elaine,
There are a number of reasons given for Circumcision, and for the exact procedure for this rite.
There may be some significance in that circumcision (Genesis 17) was given after Abraham's marrying Hagar, and producing a son, Ishmael (Genesis 16). Ishmael was thirteen years old at that time (Genesis 17:25), and had reached the age of accountability.
Putting these things together, it seems to me that circumcision was given as a sign of Israel's commitment to a life of purity, especially to keep pure the lineage leading to the birth of Messiah. One might immediately point to Tamar, Rahab, and Ruth and say that the line was not that pure. Again, it may be significant, that these "interlopers" were all women. If this reasoning is correct, circumcision would have no more significance after the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem!
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Hubert
I do not recall that the Bible says Abraham married Hagar.Hagar was a slave to Sarah and as such had no choice in being bedded by the boss's husband.
There are all kinds of possibilities in such an arrangement and nuch can be read between the lines.It is quite obvious that Sarah did not expect that Abraham could/would impregnate Hagar;hence her harsh reaction to the news Hagar was with child.
Then again maybe Ishmael was not Abrahams child either .I read somewhere that one of the kings of France had trouble consumating his marriage until after he was circumcised it could have been something like that with Abraham.
There was no DNA testing back then so who knows for sure.
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Regardless, circumcision was a distinctive device given by God to identify his Chosen People. Some other cultures practiced it but not as a religious rite.
The Jewish Rabbis, who were the interpreters of the law for the largely illiterate Jews, taught that without circumcision no one could join the family of Jews and observe their rites and ceremonies without first being circumcised. This was the directive prior to the Israelites leaving Egypt on the Exodus. This is the reason for the arguments between the Jews over requiring circumcision before the Gentiles could be admitted to Christianity, which first began in the Jewish people. As the Gentiles began to convert to Christianity (they were given the Holy Spirit also at Pentecost as recognition that they had been blessed), the Jews were very protective of their chosen state and only circumcision could be the entry rite to this exclusive group.
This was the basis for the separation of the apostles to minister to the Jews--Peter and James--and Paul going to the Gentiles. The Jews likely continued to practice their religious rites while accepting the Messiah. No such rules were ever given to the Gentile Christians in the NT. They were only to avoid food offered to idols, meat that had been strangled, and not to practice fornication. All the additions were made much later by the one Christian church for the first 1400 years, and those added by the various denomations that separated from the Roman church.
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While Rahab was probably a "Madam" do we know who sired her children?
Tamar was far better than the man, her father-in-law, who seduced her.
And Ruth also "seduced" Boaz, which was considered the custom for a female to inherit land which was ordinarily denied her.
To suggest that it was women who defiled the "pure lineage" of Christ, remember, it always takes "Two to Tango" and a majority of the men had several wives and concubines, especially the kings. David had many, his son Solomon outdid him with wives and Judah sought Tamar as a prostitute. Not to mention that the lack of DNA that made any child sired by a king was royal blood. It was common during those times, as it has nearly always been for royalty, to indulge his love of women, Solomon being the prime example and no female could refuse the king! Esther was almost deified although she had to spend a night in the king's bed before he made the decision to make her his wife!
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Abe,
You need to read Genesis 16 carefully, and get your story straight. You can get more information about surrogate motherhood on my website, http://www.everlastingcovenant.com/article.php?id=46
Was Ishmael an illegitemate child of some other man? If you read between the lines, you would see that this is impossible. Hagar was a rebellious ambitious woman, and she would not do anything to threaten the possibility of Ishmael to inherit Abraham's wealth.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Hagar was only acting as all mothers will to protect their "cubs." To say she was conniving is to elevate Sarah who was the conniver in getting Abraham to take her to his bed! The blame is spread equally. There is not a mother in the world, unless she is sadistic, who would not do everything possible to protect her child and his potential inheritance. That both Sarah and Abraham acted shamelessly is ignored since he is considered the father of Israel.
The patriachs have been lionized and idolized since the writer of Hebrews extolled them but they represent the worst of men in their many actions, not the best. Of course, it gives one hope that there is nothing that can separate us from God, but they are surely not paragons of virtue by any stretch of the imagination. Would you, or anyone you know, follow Abraham's example in all things? I hope not.
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There is also the story of Abraham "pimping" his wife to avoid Pharoah's possible actions. He allowed Pharoah to bed his wife, didn't he? No one can say that Abraham was a virtuous man but a liar, adulterer, and more. Great example?
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Abe said: Tom, You say the Church is the only venue of salvation.
Tom replied: In the NC, all are saved through the church, by faith in the Gospel, as taught by the apostles.
No longer is OC Judaism, with its' Levitical Priesthood and National Temple, the gateway into the Kingdom of God. A New Creation, called the Church, was unveiled in the 1st century. This is a new “kingdom,” where all are priests, and Jesus is the High Priest in a heavenly Temple.
Rev. 1:6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father — to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
The names of those that profess faith in Christ’s Gospel, are recorded in the Book of Life. They are the church. They are a “chosen race,” a “Holy Nation”; the Kingdom of God.
1Pet. 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
1Cor. 12:28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
Eph. 3:8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,
Eph. 3:9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;
Eph. 3:10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the CHURCH to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.
Eph. 3:11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,
Eph. 3:12 in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.
In fact, the NT teaches that the church is a “New Creation”, even “the household of God.” The “pillar and support of truth.”
1Tim. 3:14 I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long;
1Tim. 3:15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
Judaism was the old creation. It is surpassed by the church, which is a “new creation;” a unique religious Nation without borders or armies. It is the Nation of Spiritual Israel, where all have the same Gospel Faith of Abraham, their spiritual father. These are the real Jews, the real “chosen race.”
Gal. 6:14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
Gal. 6:15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Gal. 6:16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
Abe said: Do you mean the whole Christian church, Roman catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Lutheran and the myriads of others or do you mean some johhny come lately cult with extra Biblical writings they hold as inspired.
It is important as to what you mean as Church.
Tom said: I mean the “whole” Christian Church. The one where Christ is the head and all are members of his “body.”
Rom. 12:5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
The NT teaches that people, ONLY as individuals, (not as groups or organizations), are the church. Team Christ, in the vernacular of today.
Only people define the church, never any organization like the RCC, or the Lutherans, or the SDA’s, or any such organized body.
Neither are church buildings to be defined as the church of God. They are houses of worship where the church meets. Brick and mortar cannot be saved, and neither can any religious organizations be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. ONLY people. NO denominations.
1Cor. 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
1Cor. 12:27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.
Phil. 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
Phil. 3:21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
Phil. 4:1 Therefore, my beloved brethren whom I long to see, my joy and crown, in this way stand firm in the Lord, my beloved.
Phil. 4:2 I urge Euodia and I urge Syntyche to live in harmony in the Lord.
Phil. 4:3 Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
Those individuals who embrace the Gospel are part of God’s church right now. They are saved through faith in Christ, their names recorded in heaven. They could be from any denomination or from no denomination.
At the end of time, every church and denomination, (meaning the people in these groups), is judged as having a false, worthless, Gospel. All churches are condemned and instructed by Jesus, the head of the church, to repent and reform. Starting with the SDA’s.
Why start with them?
Answer: Because they are the ones that discovered the Pre-Advent Judgment of the Church. Such eschatological insight is a good thing, it’s just that they made a huge mistake by thinking it was Daniel 8: 14 when it is Rev 3: 14.
Now they must do what they instructed others to do; repent and correct their errors. This is what every church will be faced with as well. Why? Because they are all full of error, myth, and false doctrine. ALL OF THEM.
Every individual, leader or otherwise, in every church body, had better pay attention to church prophecy and repent, not listening to their dishonest leaders, who claim all is well. Such wolves are only trying to protect their false views, as well as their own perks.
Once the final Gospel Message of Rev 18 is developed and marketed, every church will be exposed as having a false Gospel and a very wrong Sabbath. They are all going to look like a bunch of fools and frauds,-which is what the SDA’s look like right now. And so they will always be until they repent and reform.
Any individual that fails to repent, and reform their doctrine to line up with the clear teachings of Jesus, will be thrown out of the household of God; banished from the Kingdom of God. Heaven is not playing games with the church or with Babylon.
Any church organization that refuses to repent and embrace the genuine Gospel and the correct Judgment, like the SDA church, will be cursed and destroyed, even though only individuals can be written in, or taken out of the Book of Life.
Those wolves in the church that try to stop the Gospel, will have their names removed from the book of life. This is what the real PAJ is saying. I can think of many SDA names that have been, or will be, taken out of the Book of Life because of their refusal to repent and reform their view of the Gospel. Uriah Smith is the most famous.
Smith is the father of Traditional Adventism, even as he is the man that developed, articulated, and promoted the IJ. He is most famous for stopping Gospel Reform in 1888, and for failing to answer Waggoner’s theology, which Ellen White urged and pleaded for him to do.
Even though Smith had no credible answers, like the SDA leaders at Glacier View, Smith and was unable to refute Waggoner, nor would he admit he was wrong. Even after Ellen White had visions that he was wrong, and told him that he was blind and walking in the dark, Smith still refused to listen or repent of his false views.
Smith was a great legalist who championed and promoted the IJ. He was the unquestioned theological leader of the SDA’s. He was responsible for creating the great Battle Creek schism by refusing to admit that Waggoner’s View of the Two Covenants was correct, and refusing so resolve the issues. His irrational insistence that there was no error with SDA doctrine, set the stage for a massive schism that almost destroyed the Denomination.
Smith, like the modern Review Editors, stubbornly denied the obvious, which resulted in the vast majority losing their faith in the SDA church. Thus, a great meltdown resulted after 1888, (just like it did after Glacier View in 1980), sending the Battle Creek leaders retreating to Takoma Park in humiliation and embarrassment.
At the turn of the century, Ellen White agreed with Daniels, that Smith would never repent of his legalism, and thus, at the end of his life, in 1902, Smith was terminated from the Review for his public push back against Waggoner’s correct view of the Gospel. He died a confused and unsaved man, fighting Gospel Reform, just like all those TSDA’s today that refuse to repent for Glacier View and refuse to embrace the Protestant Gospel.
There is no salvation because ones name is on the church books. Smith died with his name on the church books. So what? Only those INDIVIDUALS who have their names written in the lambs Book of Life will be given Eternal Life. No doubt Smith’s named was removed because he would never repent and embrace Gospel Reform. Sad. Very sad.
Rev. 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev. 2:5 ‘Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place — unless you repent.
Rev. 3:5 ‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Let all those TSDA’s who follow the theology of Uriah Smith beware. Unless they repent of the IJ and repudiate Glacier View, and run from Smiths twisted view of the Two Covenants, their names will be removed from the Book of Life. This is what happens to all those in the church foolish enough to embrace the OC confusion of the Galatians and fight the Gospel.
May their camp be desolate;
May none dwell in their tents.
Psa. 69:26 For they have persecuted him whom You Yourself have smitten,
And they tell of the pain of those whom You have wounded.
Psa. 69:27 Add iniquity to their iniquity,
And may they not come into Your righteousness.
Psa. 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life
And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
Let all make sure their names are written in the correct record book. The one in heaven.
Abe said: Jesus spoke of "the time of the Gentiles" when Jerusalem would not be controlled by the Jews. History has bourn that out, but Jerusalem is back under Jewish control now and that is significant whether you recognize it or not.
Tom said: I agree. The period of the Gentiles is over. Which is why the SDA’s must update their impossible position about Israel.
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=822
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=234&p=3
While the Nation of Israel is different from the church, which represents the true children of Abraham, they nonetheless have a role to play in the final events. Today, the Nation of Israel is only a civil power. It is not to be confused with the church, or with OC Judaism of the OT era.
Abe said: All Bible prophecy has gotten to be understood as that it affects the children of Israel. That is the key otherwise we can come up with many bizarre interpretations.
Tom said: The NT contains New Covenant Prophecy for THE CHURCH. The prophetic book of Revelation, for example, is all about the future of the church, the true Israel of God. Which is why the word “church” or “churches” is featured almost 20 X’s in the book of Revelation. The word Israel only 3.
Rev. 1:4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
Rev. 1:11 saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”
Rev. 1:20 “As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven
Rev. 3:22 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
Rev. 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
It is clear that there is specific prophecy for the church in the NT. How can anyone say otherwise?
The OT prophecies are mostly about OC Israel, but they do have some application to, and instruction for, the church. However, the church needs to understand NT prophecy. This is their duty and obligation.
Abe said: Nations and empires rise and fall in successive generations just as individuals do. Eventually they all cease to exist. But the Jews are forever because God ordained it so.
Tom said: The Jews are a very special people. They gave the world the Law, the Gospel, and the Church.
In fact, they are an Eternal race because Jesus, the Savior of the world and the head of the church, became a Jew, and thus he will be one forever. Those that follow him are spiritual Jews.
A true Jew in the New Covenant is not defined as being born Jewish, but as having faith like Abraham in the Gospel promises of God. Those are the ones that heaven defines as true Jews.
Rom. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
Rom. 9:7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
Rom. 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
Gal. 3:7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
Rom. 4:8 “BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”
Rom. 4:9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
Rom. 4:10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
Rom. 4:11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
Rom. 4:12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
Rom. 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom. 4:14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;
Rom. 4:15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
Rom. 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.
Gospel Eschatology
At the end of time, church prophecy shows that the last church, meaning all denominations, will be confronted with the pure Gospel, including the Gospel Sabbath, as well as correct Eschatology.
All that refuse to repent and reform, preparing for the Judgment and the Tribulation, will have their names removed from the Book of Life. They are banished from the church, regardless what they may think.
The End of the Word
Gospel Eschatology teaches that America, (Babylon) will be struck down at the height of its glory. Suddenly. But not without specific warning. The last church will make it very clear what is about to happen and why.
The NT teaches that the end of America will be like Babylon, not like Rome.
Rev 18 shows that the seaports of America, where all exports and imports depend, will be devastated and rendered useless forever, even as large portions of the power grid go dark.
The world reacts with stunned horror. They keep their distance. No one comes to help, because the destruction is too massive, too dangerous and radioactive. There is no repair possible. The resulting torment and death is beyond comprehension. This is the end of the civilized world…America will become a Third World County overnight.
Rev. 18:9 “And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning,
Rev. 18:10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’
Rev. 18:14 “The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them.
Rev. 18:15 “The merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning,
Rev. 18:16 saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls;
Rev. 18:17 for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance,
Rev. 18:18 and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’
Rev. 18:19 “And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!’
The Time of Trouble starts with great violence and destruction to America. This has nothing to do with Sunday Laws as the SDA’s teach. That is a very outdated and impossible view of Gospel Eschatology. All SDA’s need to repent of this error, as well as their false view of the Sabbath, and many other things.
Note how America (Babylon) falls; “with violence.” Not with Sunday laws.
Rev. 18:21 Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.
Rev. 18:22 “And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer;
Rev. 18:23 and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery.
The “Lamp of a light” is the electrical grid. America will go dark. The party is over, and so too Democracy and Capitalism. Woe to the world for what is coming…
The End of the Word
Overnight, Capitalism is destroyed and millions in the US face starvation, plague, and chaos. The major cities looks like a movie set for an apocalyptic thriller. The moon cannot be seen for the vast quintiles of smoke in the air, and the sun refuses to shine or grow food.
The stock market will fall to zero, if they can find it that is. Unemployment will soar to 80%, only Homeland Security is hiring. But money will be worthless anyway. Those that still have TV will watch with tears as the enormity of these apocalyptic events unfolds.
The Nation of Israel will be cut off and surrounded by its enemies, with no one to help. It will be a time of revenge against the Jews and the Christians, even as the world is plunged into the last great holocaust, complete with war, plague, and famine.
Luke 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
This is the time of trouble that ends with the 2nd Coming. Those paying attention to Gospel Eschatology will understand and be prepared.
Matt. 24:29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt. 24:30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt. 24:31 “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
It is time for the Advent Movement to wake up and get focused on 21st century eschatology. This is their mission and the reason why they exist. There is no point trying to pretend that Adventism does not need Gospel Reform. That is an absurd position that will certainly cause ones name to be removed from the BOOK OF LIFE.
Rev. 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things, which are written in it; for the time is near.
Tom Norris for 21st century Adventist Reform
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Hubert
Jesus in speaking to His disciples warned them that when they would see "the abomination that maketh desolate" that they should flee Jerusalem immediately.He also referenced the book of Daniel so I repeat if the 2300 days/years is not the "times of the Gentiles" then what time prophecy in Daniel is.
It is Jesus's words that make it unlikely that Epiannes is the "abomination that maketh desolate" because Jesus apparently understood that that particular prophecy was yet unfulfilled in His day. The early Jewisn Christians understood Jesus words to refer to the Roman army surrounding Jerusalem and fled when the opportunity was afforded. I have read that no Christians perished in the sack of Jerusalem in 70AD but whether that is correct I am in no position to know.
My guess is that the 144000 mentioned in the book of Revelation where these early Jewish believers since they are called the "first fruits" of the harvest. The 144000 may well be a symbolic number but it is possible the figure is literal. 144000 does seem a reasonable number of converts during the years 35-70 AD given the population of Judeae and Jerusalem at the time.Noone can know for sure of course and as acknowledging ones faith in Jesus was the equivelant of signing ones death warrant it is unlikely any census of believers was ever made.
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Abe,
. . . "And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife." Genesis 16:3
You see in this verse that Hagar was made "a wife" which was unusual for a surrogate mother. If you had read my website on Hagar: the Surrogate you would have seen something of the laws of surrogacy of those times. A surrogate was not necessarily a wife; and she had no legal rights to the child born. Likely such women were paid for what they did.
That Hagar was a wife indicates that she made some demands that Abraham had to consent to in order to have a baby. The Baby was legally Sarai's, but the fact that Hagar "held onto" him again shows her rebellious, ambitious nature. To say that Abraham "bedded" Hagar or had "romp in the grass" shows ignorance of the facts. To have a son was very important in those days. Sexual mores were different in those days, and even Abraham had concubines after he married Keturah. He gave those sons gifts and sent them all into the "east country."
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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"The Baby was legally Sarai's, but the fact that Hagar "held onto" him again shows her rebellious, ambitious nature."
This is a curious description of a mother: "rebellious and ambitious." How many women have you ever known who would turn over their biological child to another woman who had made her bed with her husband? Where is the stated practice for this? Was it not conceived (pun intended) by Sarah in order to do what, for women, was their only reason for being--to bear sons?
Discarding his own son, Abraham bowed to the wiles of Sarah. Rather unusual in that time when polygamy was the usual practice and women had little power. Where was Sarah's strength and determination when she acquiesced to Abraham's giving her to Pharoah? Did she suddenly gain strength in her old age?
Reading the story of Abrahm in Genesis reveals that it is most certainly not in sequential order.
The first mention of Abrah says that "Abram and Nahor, sons of Terah, too wives: Sarah was Abram's wife and she was barren."
When Abraham lied about Sarah and said she was his sister, she was taken into Pharoah's house and Pharoah "gave him sheep and oxen, and donkeys and male and femaleservants and female donkeys and camels (an anachronism as camels had not been domesticated when this supposedly occurred).
Abraham was paid very well for "loaning" his wife to Pharoah. But not once, but twice, the Bible records another account where Abimelech, king of Gerar, after Abraham declared Sarah to be his sister. Again, he was well rewarded for his perfidy when Abimelech gave him sheep and oxen and male and female servants and the privilege of settling wherever he wished. Abimelech also told Sarah that he gaver her "brother" a thousand pieces of silver. Abraham made out like a bandit!
The most familar story of Father Abraham was his willingness to offer his son Isaac, without even a question, nor telling Sarah. What an example!
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Elaine
The attempted offering of Issac is an unusual story.Assuming that Issac was to be the line from which the Messiah would come it is unthinkable that God would demand his sacrifice. No one stood to gain from this except perhaps Lucifer if he was around then.
To be sure Abram had some serious problems the vision of the smoking light among the pieces of sacrifice suggest perhaps a stroke or something. Abraham was hearing voices etc another sign of a departure from reality. And he probably had a lot of guilt over how he treated Hagar and Ishmael.
I can imagine God saying to one of the angels," Get down there quick before that old fool does something we will all regret."
If indeed God asked for the sacrifice so He could assess Abraham's devotion then God wasn't as all knowing as we like to believe.
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And God's omniscience could also be questioned when he responded to Abraham's pleading for Sodom. Was He only playing games with Abraham?
Then one considers Job. Did God have no idea of Job's eventual action? Were He and Satan in a gambling game with Job a pawn?
There are many different descriptions of God in the OT indicating that man's ideas about God were evolving and not static.
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Abe is correct on this one:
"The Holocaust on the other hand was "the Time of Jacob's trouble" because it was a state run program of extermination of the people of Israel. And it was followed immediately by the restablishment of the nation of Israel in 1948"
This is a fulfillment of prophecy by Jeremiah 30. The holocaust was the event, and it only pertained to the Jews, for it was "Jacobs Trouble" as the prophet Jeremiah speaks of. It is not to be confused with the "time of trouble" as mentioned in Matt 24. That will be a time of trouble such as there never was and never shall be again, and it involves the New Israel which is comprised of both Jew and Gentile who are all one in Christ, as Paul told us in Galatians 3:26-29.
The fulfillment in Jermiah is the re-establisment of Israel as a nation on their soil as stated in chapter 30 where the "city shall be builded upon her own heap" (their ruins).
Jacob's trouble and the end time time of trouble are two different events. One for the Jewish nation and the other for the New Covenant Jew and Gentile as the New Israel under the annointing of Christ where they become one in Spirit and all heirs of the Promise by God to Abraham per Gen chapters 15 and 26.
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