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This weeks issue of MacLean's Magazine (Canada's major news magazine) has an interesting article on the collapse of America.According to the article America is in such dire straits that many communities can not afford street lights or police protection.
America only became a major world power during and after WW2.Its dominence only lasted about 70 years and now it is on the brink of social and economic collapse.
All nations and empires suffer that same fate as a review of history shows but America's domimence has been brief indeed.GWB signed the fate of America wasting wealth and manpower in the sandy wastes of what was once Babylon.
Once America claimed to have put a man on the moon.Today they have to depend on the Russians to supply the space station. " How have the mighty fallen."
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Yes, and most of the financing is from China.
To the extent to which America is falling, it's got much less to do with the Muslims than it does with spending more than it takes in and the general cultural decay which was also present in ancient Rome.
Hard to comment further without getting political, and I find that's always risky, especially among church folk or folk who care about church.
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Yitzak
It is true that most empires die from within but that is also true with any of us as individuals except of course those who die prematurely from accidents etc.
The USA to some extent was the new Rome but its duration at center stage was much shorter than the Rome of the ancient world.
Just as the Vandals and Ostrogoths were not the root cause of the fall of Rome neither are the jihadists of Islam the cause of the collapse of America. Both however demonstrate that the decay is real and fatal.
It would be silly of me to place all the blame for America's decline on the back of GWB just as it was silly for many sincere Americans to think Obama could avert the looming disaster.The reality is that just as the passage of time takes its toll on us as individuals leading ultimately to our demise so too it happens to nation states and empires.
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I have always believed that the only decent reason to be involved in politics is an essentially pessimistic one- to prevent someone worse from getting in, and to temporarily delay what is inevitable in human affairs- decline.
as some poet said- everything you love will disappear.
We believe that beyond the grave and the resurrection lie eternity, but in this life, we, as well as everything we create and are a part of will eventually go away.
Given that, it seems to me the goal is not to usher in a permanent age of wonder- that way lies madness and the various 20th century monsters we all know so well. Rather, to ensure that our brief time upon the stage is good- morally, aesthetically. William James oversimplified, but not by much with his note that “Three things in human life are important: the first is to be kind; the second is to be kind; and the third is to be kind.”
America has done some things of which it can be proud. Its decline (like that of Rome's) isn't primarily tragic because it's a decline, but because of the spirit that surrounds some of its decline.
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Yitzak,
You probably will not agree, but Revelation 13 indicates that America will yet play a leading part in end time events in making an "image to the beast" and in enforcing the "mark of the beast.."
Another observation is that nations in decline may be most dangerous to world peace.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Bro Sturges, I actually tend to agree, although I am probably not as certain as you are about it.
Although I am not convinced of the details, I actually agree wiht the general contours that America's greatest danger will actually be an attempt to impose a false morality on its people. This would be a superficial attempt to fix a deeper cultural problem- we are becoming fragmented and alone. The attempt to bring unity will likely happen through some attempt to force false morality on people (and true morality could never be forced). One of the problems I have with the SDA church is it is so focused on the Sabbath Law that it gladly makes common cause with a whole variety of analogues, as long as they don't specifically target us.
(politics follow, so i shudder to give examples) We would not support sunday laws but we support laws dictating whom churches can marry as one example.
From this perspective, the real danger of Islam and our response to it, is that in its drive to identify an "other" and paint with a broad brush, we are having a very handy dry run for what you anticipate clearly and I anticipate through a glass darkly.
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Hubert
That is your present understanding of Rev 13.It may or may not be correct.There are lots and lots of ideas on what Rev means.Indeed just about any interpetation is possible.
The paralells between Ancient Rome and the USA are amazing.While the USA is past its best before date that does not say that it will not have a few episodes where a leader tries to reverse the inevitable.
A wounded animal is the most dangerous and America was severely wounded at 9/11 so GWB reaction was understandable even if in the end it made America's decline even faster.
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There have been many prognosticators during the two millennia of Christendom and most have been found wanting. Every generation believes that it has found the answer to the puzzles found in D&R. But, rather than beginning with a specific date, the final date is determined, then returns to identify the exact time in order to arrive at the specific time period!
Such chicanery is seen in magical tricks and there are always the gullible who are entranced by such ability. The Eschaton has been predicted many times, beginning in the NT when it was expected momentarily, extending through the centuries with many projected parousias and none have yet occured. Crying "Wolf" too long ends in jaded hearers.
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Elaine
Back in the olden days people looking at the sky got the impression that it was the underside of the heavenly realm. God and his/her angels were just "up there" and so Jacob's dream of a ladder reaching to neaven was quite plausible.
Today we know better even if some of these ideas are still with us. One of my aunts for example sincerely believes that her late husband is "there " and sees and knows what is going on down here.We do not know for sure off course but I personally find it unlikely.
However at times I wonder if a parallell unseen spirit world is here on earth. We know that there are germs and viriuses here that we cannot see with our unassisted eyes so maybe there are angels etc 'maybe God Himself here with us.
Jesus after the ressurection may not have had to go light years away to the center of the universe but merely pass from one world to another. I do not know.
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Old Abe and others, there's an interesting (although secular) book entitled "heaven, our enduring fascination with the afterlife." It discusses the history of the various schools of thought about heaven and the afterlife present in the big three monotheisms (christianity, judaism, islam), as well as the history of how the tribes surrounding the Hebrews thought about heaven and the afterlife.
In the rural realm of the time, life literally depended on weather, which was the other reason that the sky was afforded such an important place as God's home and the seat of His power.
Absolutely not a substitute for scripture of course, but it's interesting to see how the different strains all grapple with ideas about immortality of the soul, where God resides, what the dead do, etc.
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In most cases, it makes little or no difference what one believes of where their loved one has gone after death. If it is comforting for the survivors to believe that he or she is in heaven, there is no need to "correct" them as none of us know for certainty what occurs after death other than hope or expectation, there is no absolute certainty.
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This is an excellent discussion about eschatology.
Abe said; This week’s issue of MacLean's Magazine (Canada's major news magazine) has an interesting article on the collapse of America. According… All nations and empires suffer that same fate as a review of history shows but America's domimence has been brief indeed…" How have the mighty fallen."
Tom said: Not so fast. Not all Nations fall the same way, nor does prophecy teach that America will slowly die over many years, which is what happened to Rome.
In fact, Rome became divided, long before it fell, complete with another Capital called New Rome, which is better known as Constantinople to the East of Rome. Does this look like the US? There were only two capitals for a short period during the Civil War.
http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/rome … ofrome.htm
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/maps … tntnpl.htm
Furthermore, there is great debate about the date for the fall of Rome. Gibbon “dated the Fall to September 4, A.D. 476 when a so-called barbarian named Odoacer (a Germanic leader in the Roman army), deposed the last western Roman emperor, Romulus Augustulus, who was probably partly of Germanic ancestry.”
The earlier Sack of Rome in 410 is also popular as a date for Rome's fall. Some say the Roman Empire never fell. But assuming it did fall, why did it fall? There are adherents to single factors, but more people think Rome fell because of a combination of such factors as Christianity, decadence, and military problems. Even the rise of Islam is proposed as the reason for Rome's fall, by some who think the Fall of Rome happened at Constantinople in the 15th Century.
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/fall … easons.htm
Some date the Fall of Rome very late; to 1453 when the Ottoman Turks took Byzantium (Constantinople).
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/fall … ofRome.htm
So the point here is to understand that Rome fell over a very long period of time. In fact, it took so long, that scholars couldn’t agree if it fell in the early 400’s or the mid 1400’s.
Abe said: The USA to some extent was the new Rome but its duration at center stage was much shorter than the Rome of the ancient world.
Tom said: Let’s all take a breath of sanity and look around.
The US has NOT fallen, nor has it become a third world Nation. But that day will come. The question is when? And how?
Hub said: Yitzak, You probably will not agree, but Revelation 13 indicates that America will yet play a leading part in end time events in making an "image to the beast" and in enforcing the "mark of the beast."
Tom said: While the SDA’s were correct to see the rise of America in prophecy, and that it mirrors the beast power of Rome, and will go bad; they are wrong about how they think America will fall.
This idea that Sunday laws will bring about the Time of Trouble and ruin America is absurd, laughable, and very wrong. This is not what the NT teaches about eschatology and the SDA’s had better get busy and correct their lame, 19th century views.
Elaine said: There have been many prognosticators during the two millennia of Christendom and most have been found wanting.
Tom said; Jesus and the apostles teach that all Christians, of every age, should be eschatologically “alert,” looking for the 2nd Coming.
So it is not wrong for anyone of any age, to look at world events and try to see how they could lead to the end of the world. Thus in every age, because the world is so evil, it appears that the end must be near.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Titus 2:12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
Matt. 24:42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
Luke 21:36 “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
Here is a nice link to: A Brief History of the Apocalypse
http://www.abhota.info/end1.htm
Elaine said: Every generation believes that it has found the answer to the puzzles found in D&R.
Tom said: This is not true. There was very little eschatology in the church for hundreds and hundreds of years. The RCC does not promote eschatology, as they believe they are in charge of the Kingdom of God now. So they were not promoting any transition of power at the end of the age.
While there were many times when people thought the end of the world had arrived, like during the plague, or from war, most did not have access to either Daniel or Revelation, nor did they have any rational or credible view of eschatology. This took place much latter, which is why the Adventists came on the scene when they did.
But regardless, Jesus teaches that everyone, in any generation, is to remain on the alert for the end of the world.
Elaine said: But, rather than beginning with a specific date, the final date is determined, then returns to identify the exact time in order to arrive at the specific time period! Such chicanery is seen in magical tricks and there are always the gullible who are entranced by such ability.
Tom said: It is not fair or accurate to claim that eschatology is nothing but smoke and mirrors for the gullible. The Gospel Story is based on prophecy and culminates with eschatology, even as we all experience our own personal eschatology in death. Remove this part of the story and nothing makes sense. Nor would there be any point to the Christian Faith.
Did you know that Sir Isaac Newton, one of the greatest minds of all time, focused on Daniel and Revelation. Did you know that he came close to following Millers calculation in Daniel, except he used a later starting date than 457, and thus he arrived at 2060 as the end of the world, instead of 1844.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton's_religious_views
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/arti … -newton.do
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=75434
So before there were any Adventists, serious people were trying to understand eschatology, even as many, like Luther, thought the end of the world had arrived thanks to the Muslims who were trying to capture Europe.
Elaine said: The Eschaton has been predicted many times, beginning in the NT when it was expected momentarily, extending through the centuries with many projected parousias and none have yet occurred. Crying "Wolf" too long ends in jaded hearers.
Tom said: It is the nature and point of eschatology to always seem near. If Jesus taught that the 2nd Coming was far, far, away, what would be the result? Nothing good.
Luke 12:43 “Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
Luke 12:44 “Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
Luke 12:45 “But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
Luke 12:46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Luke 12:47 “And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
So this is not about “crying wolf,” but all about being “ready” and alert. It is far better to anticipate the Second Coming and be wrong about the date, than to ignore it and not be ready.
At the end of time, as knowledge is increased dramatically, eschatology will make more sense. And this is what is taking place today. We know far more about history and theology than ever before, and this accumulated knowledge will result in a more clear and credible understanding about how the world will really end.
As for the fate of America? Can we really understand how the Great Tribulation starts? Will its’ fall be like Rome, or is there another Nation that needs to be examined?
Answer: The fall of America will not be like Rome. Rather, it will be like the fall of Babylon. This is what the NT teaches.
Rev. 14:8 And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.”
Rev. 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.
The fall of Babylon, a great world Empire, is closely related to the demise of the Western World, especially the US. Thus, by understanding how the real Empire of Babylon meet its end, we can understand how the Great Tribulation will start and why.
Just as the mighty Babylon was surprised and destroyed by stealth, from the sudden attack of its enemies, so too the US.
Read Rev 18 and understand that the US will be hit by a massive, surprise attack, from its enemies that hate the Jews. It will be sudden, unexpected, and devastating. So much so that all imports and exports are forever stopped, and the US will, overnight, be reduced to a 3rd world power, even as Marshall Law is declared.
This is the end of democracy and the Republic, as well as the end of Capitalism and the end of life as we know it. No doubt a large portion of the electrical gird will go down. Survival will become the order of the day.
Overnight, America will be devastated. The rest of the details need further study. But understand this. The US Government is preparing for this time. They know there is going to be a strike and thus Homeland Security is not only preparing for it, they will take over the Country after it happens and thus the US will be controlled by an unelected shadow government, which is already in place.
This is the beginning of the Tribulation and the end of the world. It will be much worse than what we think and few are even close to being mentally or physically prepared. But the work of the Remnant church is to understand and prepare for this devastating event.
This is what the SDA’s were supposed to be doing. But they have become blind and rebellious, persecuting those like Dr. Ford who tried to help them understand the Gospel.
Those so silly as to be looking for Sunday laws, have not only wasted their time, but they are not close to being ready for what is really going to take place. They do not understand Gospel eschatology, and unless they repent, they are doomed.
Furthermore, the NT teaches that few will be ready for the Tribulation. In fact, Jesus, Paul, and John all teach that this sudden strike is unexpected. Thus the Tribulation comes at a time when society is fully functional, even as peace and safety have apparently been achieved.
This also means that America is not going to slowly decline like Rome. No. It is destroyed at the height of its power and glory, just like Babylon. Quickly and suddenly, just like when Babylon fell. They were certain they were safe and secure behind their great walls, but they were wrong.
Let all pay careful attention to the study of 21st century eschatology.
1Th. 5:3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
Matt. 24:37 “For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
Matt. 24:38 “For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
Matt. 24:39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
This idea that just before the Tribulation, there will be troublous times, financial distress, famine, war, persecution, etc. is incorrect. The NT teaches the opposite. Like in the days of Noah or the example of the City of Sodom, things are going on as usual, even as commerce and capitalism are doing great.
Then the end comes, as a shock, to those not paying attention to Gospel eschatology. And guess what? The SDA’s have fallen flat on their faces. Their once cutting edge views, need serious revision and correction to be of any use. This is why there must be Adventist Reform. The present views of eschatology are absurd and worthless.
Luke 17:24 “For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part 1of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day.
Luke 17:25 “But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
Luke 17:26 “And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
Luke 17:27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:28 “It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building;
Luke 17:29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:30 “It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.
Luke 17:31 “On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back.
Luke 17:32 “Remember Lot’s wife.
Today, no church teaches a credible eschatology, much less the double-talking and dishonest SDA’s. Which is why none understand what is about to happen, nor are they prepared. It is the duty of all that embrace the Gospel to seriously prepare for the Tribulation, which is fast approaching.
Here is a further link to this topic:
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=230
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris for 21st century Gospel Eschatology
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Tom
Did you read the article in MacLean's magazine.You should before you comment further.As to the USA role in prophecy that is debatable. Every great empire has come and gone some slower some faster than others.
As far as the "great Tribulation" that has already happened.As I have said before the Bible is a book basically about the Jews "God's chosen people" The Holocaust was the great tribulation and "if" America had any role in it it was to help shorten that time of trouble and restore Israel to the promised land.
When looking at the prophecies of Scripture one should look at them as basically referring to Israel.
We are in the midst of the collapse and death of the USA as a world power only a fool cannot see that.Let the present president be assinated and you will see a blood bath that will make the Civil War appear like a school picnic.
Given your ridiculous constitution after this falls mid term election you will have a lame duck president checkmated by Congress. If that will not hasten the impending disaster well guess again
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Abe asked: Tom, Did you read the article in MacLean's magazine? You should before you comment further.
Tom said: I read it; not impressed. It’s just reactionary, trite, babbling by the press, that takes a short term, negative view of events, all for the sake of dramatic effect.
What would these talking heads have said about America during the Revolutionary War, Civil War, or Great depression, when there was 30% unemployment? Today is not anywhere close to how awful things were in the old days.
At every stage of American history, there is gloom and doom everywhere. Thus there is no end to the talking heads.
For example, I remember when many thought, way back in the 1960’s, that the “population explosion” would ruin the earth and that starvation would take place. To believe the so-called experts, was to embrace the great doom of certain famine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Population_Bomb
Listen to the dire warning of what was going to take place to the world in the 1970’s. This is the same type of worthless nonsense that this article about the demise of America is promoting. It is hyperbole, fiction, and fear for the foolish.
PROLOGUE to The Population Bomb
The battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970's the world will undergo famines--hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now.
At this late date nothing can prevent a substantial increase in the world death rate, although many lives could be saved through dramatic programs to "stretch" the carrying capacity of the earth by increasing food production. But these programs will only provide a stay of execution unless they are accompanied by determined and successful efforts at population control.
Population control is the conscious regulation of the numbers of human beings to meet the needs, not just of individual families, but of society as a whole.
Nothing could be more misleading to our children than our present affluent society. They will inherit a totally different world, a world in which the standards, politics, and economics of the 1960's are dead. As the most powerful nation in the world today, and its largest consumer, the United States cannot stand isolated.
We are today involved in the events leading to famine; tomorrow we may be destroyed by its consequences.
Our position requires that we take immediate action at home and promote effective action worldwide. We must have population control at home, hopefully through a system of incentives and penalties, but by compulsion if voluntary methods fail.
We must use our political power to push other countries into programs, which combine agricultural development and population control. And while this is being done we must take action to reverse the deterioration of our environment before population pressure permanently ruins our planet.
The birth rate must be brought into balance with the death rate or mankind will breed itself into oblivion. We can no longer afford merely to treat the symptoms of the cancer of population growth; the cancer itself must be cut out. Population control is the only answer.
-Dr. Paul R. Ehrlich, The Population Bomb (1968)
http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2010 … ng-explode
In hindsight, it is clear that all this doom and gloom was utter nonsense and fear mongering. But it sold a lot of books…
In every stage of American history, there are many voices predicting doom and gloom. Today is no different, except it has been going on for so long, I am always surprised at how few learn the lessons from history.
Here is the latest prediction of the moment, which you seem to be buying into. See: ARIANNA HUFFINGTON’s
“Third World America; How our Politicians are abandoning the middle class and the betraying the American dream”
http://www.scribd.com/doc/35976438/Thir … on-Excerpt
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor … =129727773
There is just no end to people looking for a reason to cry doom, and there is no end of serious problems to exacerbate, embellish, and fear. But this is not how Gospel Eschatology works. The end of the world is going to come when God decides, not man. And the last sign of impending doom is the opposite of what all are saying today.
Peace, safety, and prosperity are the signs of the great Tribulation; not fears about, War, Bird Flue, Global Warming, Depression, and Terrorism. Thus the modern Christian should not fall for this popular view that the worse things appear, the closer to the Time of Trouble. The OPPOSITE IS THE CASE.
Things will most always look bleak, in every age, so it makes no sense for something so normal, to be a meaningful clue about the end of the world. Which is why nothing that is taking place today is any different from what has always been happening. There has always been fear that this or that situation will lead to the end. But yet, this is not what happened.
A simple review of American history will show that there were many bleak times, such as during the Cold War, or when the Government went bad during Watergate. There was no end of doomsayers predicting the end of America as hundreds of thousands took to the streets to protest Nixon and the Viet Nam war, closing down Washington DC in the process. Many people said THIS was the end of America, blah, blah, blah….
The period of 1960’s was far more unsettled then anything taking place today. Back then, there were race riots in many cities, even as tanks rolled down the streets to control the riots that took place in Washington DC. No doubt this seemed like America was falling apart for all to see.
Did all that confusion end America? No. And guess what? You don’t really see any of this taking place today in America? There are no riots, and even the wars, have much fewer deaths than what took place in Viet Nam.
So things are not as bad a many today pretend. Such uneducated hysterics is only a diversion for those that have embraced Gospel Eschatology.
We need to take a long-term view of things. Not a shortsighted, reactionary view that does not consider the necessary context and perspective. Learn the lessons from history and ignore the babble of the doomsayers and fear mongers- with their endless cries of wolf…
Given the context of American history, things are not nearly as bad as this article pretends. These types of Journalists are far from historians. They are nothing more than cultural commentators, who must fill space with their opinions to make a living.
It is the long term that counts. Not what is necessarily happening right now. Those that study history have a better view of these things. People are saying dramatic and provocative things in order to sell books and make a name for themselves. Don’t buy into this phony drama and worthless eschatology. It’s a waste of time.
Abe said: As to the USA role in prophecy that is debatable. Every great empire has come and gone some slower some faster than others.
Tom said: The rise of America was a miracle that stunned the world. The founding fathers were certain that they had divine providence on their side. With such an emerging view of world history, it was easy for the SDA’s to find the USA in prophecy.
However, at that time, when the young Republic was full of energy, growth, and ambition for greatness, it was not so easy for the SDA’s to promote their stunning view that America would turn to the dark side and repudiate democracy.
They had an unpopular message about Sunday persecution and the Mark of the Beast, which seemed very unpatriotic and fanciful. But as time went on, there was a great push for Sunday Sacredness. And this seeming fulfillment of SDA eschatology persuaded the Adventists, and others, (those that joined), that they were on the right track. So there is a lot to be said about all this, as it is a rather deep topic.
But today we can see that the US Government does have a plan in place to suspend the Constitution and declare Marshall Law, should disaster strike. The leaders are prepared, and when it happens, this fundamental point of the SDA’s will be correct.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?ti … ted_States
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/aug20 … -a09.shtml
Except, the Sunday laws are not going to have anything to do with starting the Tribulation. A minor error that must be repudiated.
The point is this: NT prophecy shows that the last great Empire does not slowly fade away, like Rome. No. It is taken down by a surprise attack, when it is at the height of its power and glory. Like Babylon.
I repeat: America and the West, aka Babylon, does not fall over long ages, like Rome, but overnight, in a stunning and massive surprise attack that ends the Republic and starts the Tribulation. (What happens after the fall, needs further study).
Which means, those looking for a slow demise are going to get caught. They misunderstand how the world will really end because they are not paying attention to Gospel Eschatology. They are following the babble of those who live by sight, and not faith in Gospel Eschatology.
Abe said: As far as the "great Tribulation" that has already happened.
Tom said: This is an absurd and impossible view that refutes the clear teaching of the NT, as well as common sense. Anyone who thinks this way, does not understand Gospel Eschatology.
Try telling Homeland Security that the Great Tribulation has already started. You can save them a lot of time and preparation, because this is what they are doing. They are trying to prepare for an attack, as well as for plague, etc. Of course they would laugh in your face, because no sane person would think this is as bad as it could ever get. There are great horrors, of epic proportion, in store for the human race. And this has not happened as yet.
Abe said: As I have said before the Bible is a book basically about the Jews "God's chosen people."
Tom said: Who cares what “you have said before?” You are not an apostle, and thus your opinion is worthless next to those who have doctrinal authority.
Only what Jesus, and the apostles teach about the Jews or the Tribulation, matters for the last church. THIS is the point that many fail to understand.
Abe said: The Holocaust was the great tribulation and "if" America had any role in it, it was to help shorten that time of trouble and restore Israel to the Promised Land.
Tom said: How can the holocaust of the Jews be the same as the holocaust of the church and the end of the world? I do not deny that both WWI and WWII were horrible, but during the final Tribulation, things will be far worse for everyone, both Jew and Gentile.
The final Tribulation will be worse then anything that has ever happened in the history of the world. What don’t you understand about such a concept?
Mark 13:19 “For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Abe said: When looking at the prophecies of Scripture one should look at them as basically referring to Israel.
Tom said: The NT book of Revelation is prophecy for the CHURCH, and so too the Words of Jesus and the apostles about the end of the world.
Moreover, the church is now the Israel of God. A Holy Nation.
1Pet. 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Abe said: We are in the midst of the collapse and death of the USA as a world power only a fool cannot see that.
Tom said: Ha! That is what some people have been saying during most every generation of America. But it never seems to work out and neither is the present garbage about doom and gloom.
NT eschatology clearly and repeatedly says that the Tribulation will come, as a surprise, during a time of peace, prosperity, and safety. Which means, things are not going to deteriorate before the appointed time.
Yes. The US will become a 3rd world Nation. But it will only happen AFTER a massive strike cripples the County and changes everything. Prior to that time, things will get better, (in the long term), and to such an extent that the world will acknowledges and rejoice as a paradigm shift from war to peace appears to take place. THEN the end will come.
1Th. 5:3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
Abe said: Let the present president be assonated and you will see a blood bath that will make the Civil War appear like a school picnic.
Tom said: Ha! I thought you said the Tribulation was already here? But now you say, if only such and such happens, then something greater than the Civil War will erupt?
So you make no sense. You admit that things are not as nearly bad as they will get one day. So how can you pretend that we are living in the great Tribulation today? Such a view makes no sense.
Moreover, do you think the US has never had a President assassinated? Lincoln was shot, but at the end of the Civil War, not at the beginning. But life went on anyway and so too the Republic. Later on, others where killed in office, like Kennedy, but the Nation went on.
So forget this nonsense about doom around the corner because of this or that reason. This is worthless, Gentile eschatology, where sight is what matters most. But Jewish/ Christian eschatology is not based on sight, but on having faith to follow God’s Word regardless of how things might appear at any point in time.
A true understanding of end times cannot be understood from the newspapers or the doomsayers. Admit you views are wrong. Can you do that?
Abe said: Given your ridiculous constitution after this falls mid term election you will have a lame duck president checkmated by Congress. If that will not hasten the impending disaster well guess again
Tom said: Ha! Before you slam the US for their poor fundamentals, consider the fact that they invented modern democracy. They also kept the world free for it to take hold. You should say thank you.
I live next to Washington DC. So I see all of this political propaganda, hand wringing, and such. Don’t confuse political spin for reality, much less with genuine eschatology. God is in charge, not the politicians or the talking heads.
Everyone really does have to take it down a notch. People, especially Christians, are saying the most absurd things, allowing themselves to be manipulated by those fighting for political power and control.
Many need to take a “time out” and attend the John Stewart rally at the Mall this fall. The present situation requires a great laugh at all the stupidity and hypocrisy that is being promoted, primarily by the Republicans, 24/ 7. It seems many Americans have big mouths and very small brains, and this is not a good combination in a noisy democracy.
http://www.rallytorestoresanity.com/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … id=artslot
So Abe, you need to calm down, and take it down a few notches. America will go down in flames, but only when God permits. I suggest that you and others pay attention to the Word so you know what to look for.
When there are wars, and financial troubles, threats of plague, and safety seems far away; this is NOT, not, not a sign of the Tribulation.
The real sign for the great and final Tribulation is the opposite; a public announcement of world “peace and safety.” THIS is the sign to take cover and get out of harms way.
It is time for Gospel Eschatology to be better understood. Is anyone listening?
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Eschatological Reform
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Tom
You are living proof of the old statement" There are none so blind as those that will not see". you apparently have one scenario in mind and reject anything that does not fit your own views. That attitude is very much like that of the Jewish leaders of Christ's day. because He didn't fit their own understanding they rejected Him.
The assination of other US presidents did not cause a great upheaval because they were white killed by other whites.Today the situation is much different.
The great Depression was bad but the USA today is the most indebted nation on earth with the debt largely held by the Communist power China.
You say the USA defended democracy and made it flourish. Tell that to the relatives of those slaughtered by the US backed jaunta in Chile or Argentina or Nicurogua.
And no my friend the gentile christian church did not displace Israel as the chosen of God. It night ease some people's consciences during their anti Semetic behaviour but there is no place in Scripture that says the Gentiles replaced Israel in God's regard and perferment.
The Great Tribulation and time of Jacob's trouble is behind us. We are much farther down the line of prophecy than some care to admit.The resurgance of Islam and the final showdown between the descendents of Abraham is the what we should be concerned about. The USA has served its role and will now rapidly become a has been world power.
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Abe said: Tom, You are living proof of the old statement" There are none so blind as those that will not see."
Tom said: I do “see” what you are saying, and understand why you say it. It is even very rational to think we are only one step away from catastrophe. This is how things most always appear in every generation.
However, Gospel Eschatology is not based on sight or fear mongering, but what Jesus and the apostles teach. And they do not teach that the Tribulation has already started, or that the last great Empire comes slowly to an end, - like Rome. Sorry.
Abe said: you apparently have one scenario in mind and reject anything that does not fit your own views.
Tom said: Bingo! Good for you! I do indeed have “one scenario” in mind and you are sharp to make such an observation. But it has nothing to do with trying to make “my views” fit.
All Christians should have “one scenario” in mind; even as they also have the “mind of Christ” and think like he does.
1Cor. 2:16 we have the mind of Christ.
Pay careful attention: Only the views of Jesus and the apostle’s count. Only what they teach about eschatology matters.
When this or that view is put forth, it must be compared with what the NT teaches.
Jesus has rejected your views. So I must also. Anyone who claims to be a Christian must understand and follow the teachings of Jesus in all things, including eschatology.
Abe said: That attitude is very much like that of the Jewish leaders of Christ's day. Because He didn't fit their own understanding they rejected Him.
Tom said: You are confused my friend. The Jews hardly had an attitude of following the teachings of Jesus. This is what all must do that claim to be Christian.
In fact, Jesus taught the 1st century Jews to be kind to the Romans. But they did the opposite, treating them with such great disrespect and violence, that the Romans were goaded into destroying them. Thus the destruction of Jerusalem would not have taken place had the Jews accepted the Gospel and followed the teachings of Jesus.
Adventist Reform Not Expected
Moreover, as someone who was born and raised SDA, I am as surprised as anyone else that tithing has turned out to be a totally false doctrine. If you had said that to me when I was studying SDA theology, I would have thought you crazy.
Nor did I have any idea that the White Estate was a criminal operation, or that most everything that I was taught as an SDA has turned out to be very wrong, including the Sabbath! I never imagined that there would be a very new and different doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.
Adventist Reform, and the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18, is very different from what I expected it to be. So your claims are refuted by the facts. Truth must be followed regardless, even if it overturns our expectations.
Abe said: The assination of other US presidents did not cause a great upheaval because they were white killed by other whites. Today the situation is much different.
Tom said: Nonsense. This County went through many years of racial tension, before the Civil War, and even after. There were race riots in the 1960’s that were far more violent and dangerous than anything taking place today.
Are things as bad as they were many years ago? No. Nor are they heading in that direction. You are just watching too much Cable News and TV about “How the World Will End.”
Stop over -reacting, as if God were not in control. You have missed this critical point, which changes everything, allowing us to embrace Gospel Eschatology and avoid the popular, worthless kind that sells newspapers and books.
So calm down and take a deep breath. The end of the world will come ONLY by the will of God, and in accordance with the Word of God. This is the proper “insight” to approach this topic and understand Gospel Eschatology.
Dan. 12:9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.
Dan. 12:10 “Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.
Abe said: The great Depression was bad but the USA today is the most indebted nation on earth with the debt largely held by the Communist power China.
Tom said: Stop the drama and the Fox News spin. The US is not the “most indebted nation on earth” nor is the economy as bad as it was in the Great Depression. Stop the fear mongering, which is based on fiction and political gain.
If you take the time to understand Gospel Eschatology, you can avoid all this fear and stress that many have embraced. Stop listening to the many talking heads that think they know how the world is going to end. They don’t know what they are talking about, nor are they listening to the right source.
Abe said: You say the USA defended democracy and made it flourish. Tell that to the relatives of those slaughtered by the US backed jaunta in Chile or Argentina or Nicurogua.
Tom said: I never said that any country, much less the USA was perfect or fully correct about anything. But they are a living miracle, which no one can deny.
In fact, America, for all its talk about Freedom, was not really free for the blacks or women for some time. So right from the start they had serious problems and were great hypocrites.
Regardless, be thankful you do not live in the dark ages. Then you will really complain, eh?
As Christians, our loyalty is not to any earthly country. But we still must give credit to America where it is due. The fact that America will go bad one day is really the point of this discussion, and not about which country is better than another.
Heb. 11:13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
Heb. 11:14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.
Heb. 11:15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb. 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
Abe said: And no my friend the gentile Christian church did not displace Israel as the chosen of God.
Tom said: The NT is clear that the CHURCH is the New Israel of God, a Holy Nation without borders or armies. (There can be no Gentile theology in the church, because the church is a Jewish concept and doctrine).
1Pet. 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Gal. 6:16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
Thus the Church and the actual Nation of Israel, are not the same thing. The fact that the Nation of Israel is back on the map changes nothing about the church. It is now the only venue for salvation from God. Judaism, which was the OC, National Religion of the Jews, has been replaced with the Church in the NC.
Abe said: It might ease some people's consciences during their anti Semitic behavior but there is no place in Scripture that says the Gentiles replaced Israel in God's regard and perferment.
Tom said: It is the Church, which is a Jewish, NC doctrine, that replaced Judaism as the method to enter the Kingdom of God. All those that embrace the Gospel, Jew or Gentile, are now defined as the new Israel of God. Not those that are born Jewish, but only those who have faith in the Gospel like Abraham.
Abe said: The Great Tribulation and time of Jacob's trouble is behind us.
Tom said: This is absurd and impossible. The great Tribulation is future. Both the Word and common sense agree on this point.
Abe said: We are much farther down the line of prophecy than some care to admit.
Tom said: Where are we?
Answer: The Laodicean Church is fast heading towards Rev 18 and the final proclamation of the Gospel, which precedes the Great Tribulation.
Today, the world stands on the brink of obtaining peace and safety, even as the church is being led, by the Spirit, into a deeper understanding of the Gospel and Prophecy.
Too bad the SDA’s are fast asleep…
Abe said: The resurgence of Islam and the final showdown between the descendents of Abraham is what we should be concerned about.
Tom said: Ha! I thought we were supposed to worry about our Chinese debt and Presidential assassinations? Now it’s the Moslems? Wow! So many things to “worry” about for those not tuned into Gospel Eschatology. Pity.
I agree that the Tribulation will be started by a massive surprise attack on America by the Moslems. This is what Rev 18 shows.
Rev. 18:16 Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls;
Rev. 18:17 for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance,
Rev. 18:18 and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’
Rev. 18:19 “And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!’
Thus, America will be taken down, suddenly, by a massive surprise attack, just like Babylon. This is the end of capitalism and the end of the consumer economy. This is the beginning of the Time of Trouble and the start of the end of the world.
Those that understand Gospel Eschatology will be out of harms way, prepared for what is about to happen.
Abe said: The USA has served its role and will now rapidly become a has-been world power.
Tom said: Today, the US is still the worlds greatest Empire. Thus it still has a role to play, even as the church will use its freedom to proclaim the final Gospel Message to all.
AFTER the great strike, the US will quickly become a 3rd world Nation, even as democracy and freedom will be replaced with Marshall law. Homeland Security will take over the County, and all will focus on survival.
Mark 13:17 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Mark 13:18 “But pray that it may not happen in the winter.
Mark 13:19 “For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20 “Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no 1life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
Mark 13:21 “And then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ’; or, ‘Behold, He is there’; do not believe him;
Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Mark 13:23 “But take heed; behold, I have told you everything in advance.
Mark 13:24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26 “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 “And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.
I hope this helps everyone to better understand Gospel Eschatology,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom
You say the Church is the only venue of salvation.Do you mean the whole Christian church ,Roman catholic,Orthodox, Baptist,Lutheran and the myriads of others or do you mean some johhny come lately cult with extra Biblical writings they hold as inspired.
It is important as to what you mean as Church.
Jesus spoke of "the time of the Gentiles" whan Jerusalem would not be controlled by the Jews. History has bourne that out but Jerusalem is back under Jewish control now and that is significant whether you recognise it or not.
All Bible prophecy has gotten to be understood as that it affects the children of Israel.That is the key otherwise we can come up with many bizarre interpetations.
Nations and empires rise and fall in successive generations just as individuals do. Eventually they all cease to exist .But the Jews are forever because God ordained it so.
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Yitzak,
I would like to make some short comments about some of your statements:
America's greatest danger will actually be an attempt to impose a false morality on its people.
One of the problems I have with the SDA church is it is so focused on the Sabbath Law that it gladly makes common cause with a whole variety of analogues, as long as they don't specifically target us.
We would not support Sunday laws but we support laws dictating whom churches can marry as one example.
What is a “false morality?” We have many laws that legislate “morality.” For instance killing, stealing, rape, and now even “hate.” What I think you mean is when there is an attempt to legislate worship. This is where the “false morality” comes into play. Revelation 13 indicates that this will be the dividing issue in the end time.
Is it a problem to be focused on the Sabbath Law (4th law in the Ten Commandments)? Consider what the Seventh-day Sabbath means: (1) It is a memorial of Creation. To lose one’s belief in Creation is to undermine the entire foundation of Christianity. (2) It is a time of worship and devotion to God. Lacking this a person tends to look more and more to himself. As Pope John Paul II said, the Sabbath is at the center of Christianity. To this I say, “Amen!”
Is it unreasonable for a church to support laws defining marriage as between one man and one woman? (I think that is what you meant). The Bible is clear on this issue, and the church has a right to uphold their belief in the Bible. Gays need and deserve respect and consideration that you would give to any other person. The problem is that the homosexual agenda is asking for special privileges. One reason that they have made so much headway in their agenda is because so much of the preaching of the popular churches denigrates belief in the Bible and the keeping of the Law of God.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Old Abe,
I will reply to several of your statements:
There are lots and lots of ideas on what Revelation means. Indeed just about any interpretation is possible.
The Great Tribulation and time of Jacob's trouble is behind us. We are much farther down the line of prophecy than some care to admit. The resurgence of Islam and the final showdown between the descendants of Abraham is the what we should be concerned about. The USA has served its role and will now rapidly become a has been world power.
All Bible prophecy has gotten to be understood as that it affects the children of Israel. That is the key otherwise we can come up with many bizarre interpretations.
It is important as to what you mean as Church.
The Book of Revelation, particularly chapters 12, 13, 14 are open to examination and study by all churches. Revelation is not a closed book. The prophesies are open to anyone with an open mind and a willingness to believe what is said.
The Great Tribulation and the Time of Jacob’s trouble are still ahead. This time of trouble will be worse than anything that has happened before -- Holocaust, Rwanda, Sudan, etc. The elements of anarchy are building in all nations, and will be greatly aggravated as the economy falters. Will it be Islam? Many used to think it would be Communism. But the context of Daniel over and over points to an end time persecuting power. Revelation 13 points to United States as having a major part in this.
Islam is an important force, but at the time of the Reformation, it was Islam that made it possible for the Reformation to succeed. Will we need Islam again for this? Maybe. Just maybe!
Israel? I have heard several bizarre interpretations regarding Israel, but they do not come from the Bible. Romans 11 indicates that God has not cast His people away. Paul also talks about the remnant of Israel who will be saved along with the Gentiles who being “in Christ” are “Abraham’s seed.” One source of confusion on this issue arises from “Futurism” which is a Catholic doctrine that has been swallowed hook, line, and sinker by much of the Protestant world. If you can get away from the false ideas surrounding Futurism, the end time events will be much more clear.
And what is a Church? All through history, God has dealt with a righteous remnant. There is a prophetic “Remnant Church” today. It is identified in Revelation 12:17. This verse is open for all churches to read and follow. It they should be willing to accept the qualifications, they too could be part of the Remnant. The concept is not limited to one church -- though at this time there is just one church who willingly accepts this identity.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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While Rwanda and the Sudan and elsewhere are terrible eventsthey are not a Biblical concern because they do not involve the Jews.
The Holocaust on the other hand was "the Time of Jacob's trouble" because it was a state run program of extermination of the people of Israel. And it was followed immediately by the restablishment of the nation of Israel in 1948. That Israel survived the onslaught of the armies of Islam at that time shows clearly that it was a God directed event.
Today ( on this mornings news) Israel is being pressured by the USA to give up its claim to the lands promised to Abraham in exchange for a transitory peace deal with Islam. It will be interesting where it will lead in both the short and long term especially with a quasi Moslem in the White House.
If prophecy is correctly understood the USA will abandon the children of Israel and turn on God's chosen people.These are interesting times one might almost wish one could live long enough to see what will take place and who's interpetation is the correct one.
However with still hundreds of years left before the end of the 2300 days/years prophecy which began in 70AD the chances of any of us seeing what really happens is remote indeed.
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If the Bible promises to Abraham to give him the land now Israel, aren't the Muslims also descendants of Abraham, too? Why do the Israelites have more claim than their relatives of Abraham to whom the promise was given?
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The reason Elaine is because Issac was the legitimate heir while Ishmael was not. Elementary my dear Watson.
The Bible makes it very clear that Issac was the child of promise.
Now don't ask if that was fair for the child of the slave woman who was the by product of a romp in the grass but that is how life is.Some of us are born damned regardless of rhyme nor reason.
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Old Abe,
Who are the Jews today? Read Romans 2:25-29. Also Galatians 3:29 "If ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." These are the "Jews" that God is concerned with and who are included in the end time prophecies. I still think that you are depending too much on Futurism, which is totally irrational and will lead you down a dead end street.
Rwanda and the Sudan are significant only in showing that, bad as they were, it will be worse in the future.
Daniel 8:14 and 9:24-27 coupled with Ezra 7:11 (for the decree of Artaxerxes in 457 bc) and Ezra 7:25,26 (showing the autonomy given Israel from this decree) shows that the 2300 days began in 457 bc and ended in 1844 ad. Any other date will throw you off course.
I realize this is a bare outline, and is not documented. I do believe that it is Bible truth, and would be worth your study.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Hubert
Allow me to ask you a question.Jesus ,when discussing the future said that Jerusalem would be trodden down by the Gentiles until the" times of the Gentiles" was fulfilled.
In that discussion He was also referring to the writings of Daniel so my question is this. What time prophecy was Jesus referring to if not the 2300 dys/years prophecy.
As far as the 1844 date is concerned it is simply a concoction of Miller's messed up understanding and a vain attempt by some embarassed early Millerites to give an excuse for their stupidity.
We know from Scripture that Jesus went directly into the presence of God on His ascension there was no 1844 event in heaven.
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Did Paul contradict Jesus when he declared that there was no longer Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave or free, but all are one in Christ Jesus?
The "pagan" Gentiles were never required to become Jews as proselytes. They first would have had to submit to circumcision to even be allowed to observe the Jewish Sabbath and adopt the other ceremonies. The rabbis considered an uncircumcised, non-Jew worthy of death if he attempted to observe any of the Jewish Laws which were given solely to Jews (Deut 5:2-3,6).
This clearly explains the controversy between the Jewish and Gentile Christians concerning the Jews' wishing to enforce circumcision on the Gentiles. No non-Jew could observe ANY Jewish laws unless he had first been circumcised. Thus, the eventual decision NOT to require circumcision and the Gentiles were never given Jewish ceremony requirements to observe.
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