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Dexter and Tom, notice this text which has been used, and texts like it to show that the Sabbath was "commanded" or "kept" by the Early Church:
Acts 14: 1 At Iconium Paul and Barnabas went as usual into the Jewish synagogue. There they spoke so effectively that a great number of Jews and Gentiles believed.
Now what would Gentiles be doing in a synagogue, unless they had accepted the Sabbath?:
According to Judaism any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as a Righteous Gentile and is assured of a place in the world to come (Olam Haba), the Jewish concept of heaven.[2] Adherents are often called "B'nei Noach" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides" and may often network in Jewish synagogues.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
"Networking" with those that were righteous, not because they had to keep the Sabbath, but that is where other righteous people were worshiping. Right??
Last edited by bob_2 (04-06-10 1:37 pm)
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In those days the snyagogue was similar to our town hall or public square and not religious services entirely. The temple at Jerusalem was the only place where sacrifices could be made and when it was destroyed the Jewish people were without their designated worship place.
There were synagogues in major areas where there was a large contingent of Jews and the diaspora Jews comprised more than 60-70% of Jews, not the small area of Palestine. Those Gentiles who worshiped and met with the Jews (but were not circumcised) were called the "God-fearers" but only by submitting to circumcision were they allowed to conduct themselves as Jews: observing their laws and rituals; so there is no record of Gentiles being circumcised (instead they were specifically told it was not necessary) nor is there a single account of them being taught to obey the Sabbath command given to Jews. To assume that they began keeping sabbath is entirely a speculation, no scripture to endorse that position, and the account of Gentile Christians is recorded in Paul's epistles which were written long before the gospels which were written by and for the Jews to proclaim that Christ was their long-awaited Messiah.
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This is in response to the first post of this thread, made by Dexter, he is in black, I am blue:
All who insist the Moral Law of 10 commandments with its featuring Sabbath (as exemplified by Christ and viewed through the lenses of the NT) are no longer a moral obligation for the New Covenant believer, have hijacked the Gospel and are under a curse! (Gal. 1:8,9) They have severed their connection to the Head and are no longer members of Christ’s Body, the Church. Claiming to be wise, they are fools in heaven’s eyes and will perish in their folly if they do not repent.
Dexter, before you go around putting curses or thinking that you have, show where the Sabbath is part of the Gospel, Bible only please.
Many today (especially those among the ranks of the New Covenant Theology exponents) try to make the unfounded claim that Christ’s “fulfilling” the law means he has removed it as a moral guide of righteousness and a definer of sin for the body of NC believers. While the true source of their contention rests on the NC Sabbath, they really contend against all ten; for to offend in one point is to offend all (James 2:10). Yet these NCTers (so they dub themselves), try to dissect the law in so much as to remove the Sabbath from its place and assign it the role of any other ceremonial Sabbath. In this daring stance, they mean to correct Jehovah and shake their heads at heaven – for they claim to know better.
Dexter, Lev 23 and Eph 2 :14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Well did the Apostle warn against these “dreamers” who imagine they can arrest the Gospel “faith” from its Jewish platform and outfit it to suit their own misguided agendas. They boast about understanding the covenants and dare to “speak abusively against whatever they do not understand” (Jude 10) all the while running roughshod over Christ’s example and teaching for the Faith he has “entrusted to the saints” (v1). Thus they invent all manner of theories and suppositions not realizing they are consorting with “deceiving spirits” and promote “things taught by demons” (I Tim. 4:1). They are novices ensnared by their own confused reasoning.
You will still have to show where the Sabbath has anything to do with 1 Tim 4:1 when Heb 8:13 says there will be changes and a New Covenant.
Had these self deceived “dreamers” not been so impertinently preoccupied with trying to “lay another foundation” for the Gospel than its Jewish heritage, they might have been able to see that the very “things they do understand” – Christ’s substitutionary fulfilling the standard of perfection as required by the law – are the very “things that destroy them” (Jude 10) – that law, embodied and expressed in the precepts of the Decalogue and including the Sabbath, was fulfilled for ALL.
Forever affixed to the Gospel of Salvation is its Jewish foundation on which it is build. Here alone do all things relating to the Gospel fit together to form God’s complete and perfect salvation plan for humanity. No other context, but that of the Jewish paradigm, can be substituted and the Gospel still hold together. Thus Paul explains to the Gentile believer, that to be “members of God’s household” is to be built on the foundation of the Jewish “apostles and prophets” and a Jewish “Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.” (Eph. 2:19-22)
Dexter, Sheeeeeeeeeeeesh, show where these verses have anything to do with the reality of Col 2:17.
Thus when any non-Jew asks what “law”, the exalted standard of righteousness of which, Christ had to fulfill on the sinner’s behalf? That question can only rightfully be answered from the “very words of God” entrusted to the Jews. (Rom. 3:1) And there we find but one answer – the 10 commandment law. This law, with its broad and far reaching principles, is what the Scripture teaches that Christ had to fulfill on behalf of the believing repentant sinner. This is basic to the teachings of Scripture and is what the apostle would consider “elementary teachings about Christ” (Heb. 6:1).
Why was the Decalogue given and for how long:
Galatians 3:19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.
But was Christ’s complete righteousness accomplished for the Jews alone? Was it not for all Adam’s lineage, Gentiles included? Yes, every last fallen child of Adam, Jews and Gentile alike. The implication of this commonly held truth is what ransacks the enemy’s camp and lays it bare for all to see. This one truth and the ramification it carries are the very “things that destroy them” through and through. For if the ONE law is the standard for ALL, so that Christ had to fulfill it on behalf of ALL, then was ALL guilty of failing to measure up to its standard of perfect righteousness. That standard includes the Sabbath.
The OC was fulfilled by the NC and Jesus became the PEACE or REST of the Christian:
Eph 2:14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
This fact alone displaces the foolish notion that the 10 commandment law, and in particular the Sabbath command was only given to and for the Jews (and this doesn’t even consider the REAL mandate for the continuation of the Decalogue and the Sabbath in particular under the New Covenant in the teaching and example of Christ). For if the doctrine if the sinner’s justification by faith is forever fixed in definition and tied to the work of Christ who fulfilled the law on the sinner’s behalf, being the only Man who measured up to its exalted standard of perfect love to God and his fellowman, then ALL the principles of the Jewish Moral Law must also be forever fixed to the doctrine of justification.
Moreover, the inclusion of the Sabbath in the Jewish Moral Law, the fulfillment of which is the universal principle of love, is itself an indication that whatever principle of love the Sabbath was intended to represent is universal and applicable to ALL man. Hence, the Sabbath, being included in this lofty standard of righteousness Christ had to fulfill on behalf of ALL, condemns ALL as guilty of offending against whatever principle the Sabbath command was given to represent. That Christ had to fulfill the exalted claims of that 10 commandment law, which includes the Sabbath, and was the only one capable of loving God and his fellowmen perfectly, forever establishes the obligation of that law to those for whom Christ died. Thus it is by our faith in Christ we say amen to this truth and “establish the law” (Rom. 3:31)
Response Heb 8:13 The Decalogue is the centerpiece of the OC that is obsolete. A new Covenant with new tenets is in place.
Sadly, to their own demise and confusion they ignore Christ’s teaching that the Sabbath was made for man, and thus man, ALL man, are found guilty of offending its claim upon them, even as ALL are now obliged to follow his example and teaching of the reformed NC Sabbath.
Response A Reformed NC Sabbath is the figment of your and Tom Norris’ imagination. Show me where any scholar, as I have asked Tom to do, has touted such nonsense.
For this reason is none free to invent their own theories about the Gospel,
AMEN!!!!
ignoring its Jewish context and platform. For to do, so is to welcome all manner of false theories and theological confusion. ALL must go to a Jewish Christ, who proclaims boldly a Jewish salvation (John 4:22) and learn of his Jewish 10 commandment law which features a Jewish Sabbath commandment, now reformed and suited for the New Covenant Gospel. ALL must bow in humble submission before the great Jehovah of the spiritual Israelites and confess that they are dire and destitute of the means to fulfill the exalted claims of His holy law (embodied in the precepts of the Decalogue) and accept his offer of a righteousness equal to that of the law found in to doing of Christ.
Dexter. You are rambling or copying someone’s rant here, not based on the Word of God.
Moreover, while it is true that all the precepts of the Decalogue hangs on the two “greatest commandments” (Matt. 22:38), this by no means suggest that they were to be replaced by them. Thus when any of fallen sons of Adam asks ‘how do I love the Lord my God with all my heart and with all my soul and with all my mind’? He must, through the example of Christ, look to the first four precepts of the 10. Likewise with regard to his love to his fellow man must he also see in Christ example and teachings the last six. This Moral Law of the 10 commandments, exemplified by Christ’s life and teachings and interpreted by the writings of the NT, are still and forever such as suited to meet man in his fallen state.
The 10 Commandments are the Covenant that is obsolete.:
2 Corinthians 3:7
The Glory of the New Covenant
2 Cor 3: 7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,
Furthermore, the Bible makes it clear that all are without excuse regarding being capable of understanding the universal principle of love as expressed in the 10 commandments. While it is also clear that love is the fulfillment of the Moral Law (Rom. 13:8-10), and that the “two greatest commandments” are the hinges on which they hang (Matt. 22:40), none can say of them (love, or the two great commandments) ‘what law was it Christ embodied and fulfilled on my behalf’? or ‘how do I know when I offend’? or ‘this standard is too high and lofty for me to relate to or understand.’ For thus says Jehovah:
Deut. 30:11 “Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.
Deut. 30:12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?"
Deut. 30:13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?"
Deut. 30:14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.”
Dexter, everyone of the Decalogue’s tenets are expanded on and the Sabbath is fulfilled in the Mediator of the Covenant Himself. Col 2: 17
Thus did God not leave the application to the universal principle of love to the subjective feelings and “spirit lead” (as some like to call it) whims of men. If it were so, we all may have variations of applications and dub them “spirit lead”. Rather, these words of the 10 commandments are words that are “very near” to all of us and something we ALL may relate to and suited to our constitution (in our mouth and heart). That Christ laid a perfect example of the spirit of this law in fulfilling its requirements of perfect righteousness, does not remove its form as directed by God to meet man in his fallen state.
This appears to be copied, with no Word of God quoted, but either yours or someone else’s ramblings.
In conclusion, let all be aware of the leaven of the NCTers! They have run a shipwreck of faith and know it not. They are confounded by their own doing and have fallen headlong into a ditch. Woe to then, for they preach “another Gospel” and are under condemnation!
Gal. 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
Gal. 1:7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal. 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
Gal. 1:9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Dexter, this caution can apply to hanging on to a Covenant’s tenets that are to be let go and the new tenets accepted in the New Covenant.
Hebrews 8: 13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Last edited by bob_2 (04-07-10 3:37 pm)
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This is the consistent refrain of those who insist that Jewish Law, often called "Moses" did not become obsolete at the cross, in spite of the Bible's direct contradiction of this assumption. Continually falling back on interpretation, it is still devoid of any text instructing the Gentile Christians on observing the Jewish Sabbath; on the contrary, there is much in Paul's instruction that the "pagans" (Gentiles) were not to be made to observe Jewish ways. The apostles also gave the limited instruction: not to eat food offered to idols, abstain from blood, and fornication.
Please furnish Bible texts adding Sabbath or circumcision (both distinguishing Jewish practices)
for the Gentile Christians. Otherwise, there IS no command for them to observe sabbath. No text=no reason.
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Bob, there is no sense of coherence or sound reasoning in your thoughts here whatsoever. Your posts are of not more value or maturity than of an unruly child ranting and raving because they have been disciplined. You need to learn true discipline of proper debate and be “adult” about defending your view, even as you also need a huge dose of humility to swallow your pride and accept when you have been proven wrong. Being brazen in the face of the clear witness that proves your “strange” anti-Sabbatarian doctrine as inaccurate and smashed over and over again is hardly admirable. You need to stop acting like a spoiled child who throws fits of garbled murmurings because they can’t have their own way.
Furthermore, to say you quote me and interject your own words into my statements without making any distinction between them is quite frankly nefarious. This is a new and desperate low, even from you. Is this the course of action you take when you cannot stand up to proper correction? Mis-quote your opponents, repeat the same misinterpreted texts over and over, and throw temper tantrums, all the while holding your fingers fastened to your ears? I’m not sure this dialog is worth continuing if this is how you intend to conduct yourself, particularly since there isn’t much in your posts of value anyway. You should be ashamed.
Yet you postulate yourself and this dubious NCT as though it has something to offer Adventist Reform? This is the height of ignorance and is quite telling of your supposed agenda.
Moreover (and here is a clear example of what I mean when I say you refuse correction), to continue to ask for texts in support of the NC Sabbath while completely ignoring the words of Christ is PRECISELY what I mean by equating such an attitude with the “wicked” Jews who sought for a sign from Christ to validate His Lordship and authority to do the things was doing and say the things he was saying. You inability to see this, though stated in plain English, is no better than the Jews denying that they would have done the same as their forefathers did when they persecuted the prophets of old.
What you NEED are not more texts to corrupt and misinterpret. This is a charade in true form. NO, what you need is to come to Christ is humble repentance for denying Him as Lord of the NC Sabbath, who ALONE has the authority to reform this doctrine as the “messenger of the covenant”.
Once again, listen to these words carefully; in fact write it down, several times. Christ, is the Lord of the Sabbath. He defines it. He said it was made for man. He controls how it is ordered for His body of believers. Christ NEVER claimed to be the Sabbath nor does His offer of “rest” address the purpose in the giving of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is FIRST a matter of love, honor, and reverence to God as Creator. As such it can no more be removed as “moral” obligation for His people than can God cease to be Creator or the seven-day week become a six-day week. It is forever fixed! Throw as many tantrums as you like, you’ll find that this is will yet remain a fact.
Moreover, in as much as you’ve already been assessed and to reason as “mere men” requiring “milk” not solid food. Sip on this. By share numbers, the facts weigh more on the side of Christ reforming the Sabbath than it does, as you claim, He “became” the Sabbath. While all four Gospels has accounts of Christ’s confrontation with the Jews about the Sabbath as He made these radical changes, ONLY Matthew’s Gospel carries the account of Christ offer of “rest”. So even if we were to reason as “mere men” and do the number thing, the evidence is still on the side of Christ’s Sabbath reforms and not on this dubious idea that Christ became the Sabbath. Sorry to disappoint you.
It is quite interesting that this topic has come full circle to its original point. That the Gospel has been Hijacked from its Jewish platform and being forced into a “gentile” Gospel, is exactly the center thrust of my original post. But this bogus concept of a “gentile” Gospel, is no Gospel at all. It is confusion, and such as in proper form. And such it will be, for it is removed from the only context in which the Gospel makes any sense.
Let all be clear on this point; there is NO such doctrine as a “gentile” Gospel. While the Gospel is now freely open to all and “any who will” may come and share in its blessings of Salvation, this in no way changes the fact that all such are now part of “Israel of God” and considered “spiritual Jews”. This point alone decks the Jewish paradigm of the Gospel with permanent relevance.
Let every lamp be burning bright, the darkest hour is nearing...
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My "tantrum" will have to remain my response. If you wish to see numerous previous .com posters remarks, here is the site. Good discussion:
http://www.atomorrow.com/cgi-bin/discus … #POST36757
When you come to the bottom of page, you will know because you can't advance further, make sure you come back to the top right hand corner and tap NEXT. It advances a fantastic study with many participants. Hopefully this helps.
Last edited by bob_2 (04-08-10 10:27 pm)
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Bob_2 said: Dexter, the context of the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath was to show that man was more important than the Sabbath, not vice a versa. Notice the context:
Lord of the Sabbath
Mark 2: 23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"
25He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."
27Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
I say: I’m sorry Bob, but this assessment simply can’t stand. Such a statement is clearly universal in scope and is in keeping with the generality of all of Christ’s lessons. He meant His lessons to address His Church, both contemporary and future. This again, you might have been able to grasp had you really believed that He was the “Mediator” and “Messenger” of the New Covenant. But seeing as you do not, how could you understand these things? Yet you offer lip service and dare to comment on His words as though somehow you have the slightest clue. How tragic.
Moreover, as the “Mediator” and “Messenger” of the New Covenant, it was His responsibility to broker the “words” of this covenant and such is what we see in all His teachings. This is exactly what Peter meant when he quoted Moses’ prophecy so as to get the Jews present there on the Day of Pentecost to acknowledge in Jesus the bringer of the New Covenant, whose words they “must listen to”
Acts 3:17 ”Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders.
Acts 3:18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ would suffer.
Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
Acts 3:20 and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.
Acts 3:21 He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
Acts 3:22 For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.
Acts 3:23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.
Thus it is that accepting the words of Jesus a HUGE part of what it means to believe in Him as the Christ. Not alone, did they need to see in His work the fulfillment of prophecy, but also and very importantly, they needed to see this in His words.
Moreover, on a previous occasion the Bible records the following:
Acts 2:40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation."
Acts 2:41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Acts 2:42 They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
That “apostles’ teaching” can only be such that they experienced with Jesus. To suppose then, that when the subject of the Sabbath came up, that the “apostles’ teachings” was that Christ “became” the Sabbath, is utter nonsense. Jesus never taught this ridiculous doctrine so neither could His apostles who He commissioned to be HIS witnesses.
Acts 1:6 So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"
Acts 1:7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
Bob_2 said: None of this was talking about Gentile keeping of the Sabbath, because it was only given to the Jews to keep, Even the Jews believed the Noahide Law was only composed of 7 commands for the Gentiles to keep. It did not include the Sabbath. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah
I say: Christ’s words are for His church, which includes Gentiles. Why is this such a difficult thing to accept? Your denying this does nothing but “completely” cuts you off “from among his people” and places you outside the Christian fold.
Moreover, your observation about what “Law” the Jews believed the Gentiles should or shouldn’t keep is hardly novel. The Jews were confused and intensely separatist in their misappropriating God’s election of them as His people. So this submission of yours suits the misguided sect of Judaism who put the Lord to death. Why would that be a surprise? And why does this even matter? Yet you talk about piecemealing? What a joke. You are the one grabbing at straws my friend.
How is it you still haven’t learnt the lesson about NOT looking through the eyes of the subjective and faulty experience of the Jews to form your interpretation of the OC? Did we not go over this before? Why aren’t you paying attention? Yet you pretend to suggest others should study? You need to take heed to the warning against those who “think they stand”
While the confused masses of the Jews who held on to the exegetical commentaries taught in rabbinical schools by scribes and “lawyers” as an authoritative guide to understanding the words of Moses, may be excused for their confusion on matters regarding their behavior under the OC, those living in our age have no such excuse. We have both the complete OT and the writing of the NT to help explain and clarify the OT. Yet you insist on choosing the faulty interpretations of the Jews over the words of Christ?
What a foolish and blatant disregard to the words of Christ.
Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
Acts 3:20 and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.
Let every lamp be burning bright, the darkest hour is nearing...
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Oh, it's you Dexter, you had more to add to this little child's "tantrum". Sorry, that was my final answer. Here and at .com. Enjoy the story, if you really care. Respond to the questions in a mature manner and I might reengage you. Thanks for the metal on metal discussion. It helped sharpen my "sword" . How about you.?
Last edited by bob_2 (04-08-10 10:24 pm)
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Here Tom, help Dexter with his answer, the other thread was about tithing. It seems you want that to be salvific, the way you see that topic also. Let's stay on topic, drill down, we may get some answers on the Sabbath if you stay focused and not quite so lengthy each time.
Last edited by bob_2 (04-09-10 11:42 pm)
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Tom, what is your response to post #28 of this thread. This is where you should be talking of the Gospel not over on the Tithing thread.
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