The Hijacked Gospel

Dexter · 03-14-10 2:46 pm

All who insist the Moral Law of 10 commandments with its featuring Sabbath (as exemplified by Christ and viewed through the lenses of the NT) are no longer a moral obligation for the New Covenant believer, have hijacked the Gospel and are under a curse! (Gal. 1:8,9) They have severed their connection to the Head and are no longer members of Christ’s Body, the Church. Claiming to be wise, they are fools in heaven’s eyes and will perish in their folly if they do not repent.

Many today (especially those among the ranks of the New Covenant Theology exponents) try to make the unfounded claim that Christ’s “fulfilling” the law means he has removed it as a moral guide of righteousness and a definer of sin for the body of NC believers. While the true source of their contention rests on the NC Sabbath, they really contend against all ten; for to offend in one point is to offend all (James 2:10). Yet these NCTers (so they dub themselves), try to dissect the law in so much as to remove the Sabbath from its place and assign it the role of any other ceremonial Sabbath. In this daring stance, they mean to correct Jehovah and shake their heads at heaven – for they claim to know better.

Well did the Apostle warn against these “dreamers” who imagine they can arrest the Gospel “faith” from its Jewish platform and outfit it to suit their own misguided agendas. They boast about understanding the covenants and dare to “speak abusively against whatever they do not understand” (Jude 10) all the while running roughshod over Christ’s example and teaching for the Faith he has “entrusted to the saints” (v1). Thus they invent all manner of theories and suppositions not realizing they are consorting with “deceiving spirits” and promote “things taught by demons” (I Tim. 4:1). They are novices ensnared by their own confused reasoning.

Had these self deceived “dreamers” not been so impertinently preoccupied with trying to “lay another foundation” for the Gospel than its Jewish heritage, they might have been able to see that the very “things they do understand” – Christ’s substitutionary fulfilling the standard of perfection as required by the law – are the very “things that destroy them” (Jude 10) – that law, embodied and expressed in the precepts of the Decalogue and including the Sabbath, was fulfilled for ALL.

Forever affixed to the Gospel of Salvation is its Jewish foundation on which it is build. Here alone do all things relating to the Gospel fit together to form God’s complete and perfect salvation plan for humanity. No other context, but that of the Jewish paradigm, can be substituted and the Gospel still hold together. Thus Paul explains to the Gentile believer, that to be “members of God’s household” is to be built on the foundation of the Jewish “apostles and prophets” and a Jewish “Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.” (Eph. 2:19-22)

Thus when any non-Jew asks what “law”, the exalted standard of righteousness of which, Christ had to fulfill on the sinner’s behalf? That question can only rightfully be answered from the “very words of God” entrusted to the Jews. (Rom. 3:1) And there we find but one answer – the 10 commandment law. This law, with its broad and far reaching principles, is what the Scripture teaches that Christ had to fulfill on behalf of the believing repentant sinner. This is basic to the teachings of Scripture and is what the apostle would consider “elementary teachings about Christ” (Heb. 6:1).

But was Christ’s complete righteousness accomplished for the Jews alone? Was it not for all Adam’s lineage, Gentiles included? Yes, every last fallen child of Adam, Jews and Gentile alike. The implication of this commonly held truth is what ransacks the enemy’s camp and lays it bare for all to see. This one truth and the ramification it carries are the very “things that destroy them” through and through. For if the ONE law is the standard for ALL, so that Christ had to fulfill it on behalf of ALL, then was ALL guilty of failing to measure up to its standard of perfect righteousness. That standard includes the Sabbath.

This fact alone displaces the foolish notion that the 10 commandment law, and in particular the Sabbath command was only given to and for the Jews (and this doesn’t even consider the REAL mandate for the continuation of the Decalogue and the Sabbath in particular under the New Covenant in the teaching and example of Christ). For if the doctrine if the sinner’s justification by faith is forever fixed in definition and tied to the work of Christ who fulfilled the law on the sinner’s behalf, being the only Man who measured up to its exalted standard of perfect love to God and his fellowman, then ALL the principles of the Jewish Moral Law must also be forever fixed to the doctrine of justification.

Moreover, the inclusion of the Sabbath in the Jewish Moral Law, the fulfillment of which is the universal principle of love, is itself an indication that whatever principle of love the Sabbath was intended to represent is universal and applicable to ALL man. Hence, the Sabbath, being included in this lofty standard of righteousness Christ had to fulfill on behalf of ALL, condemns ALL as guilty of offending against whatever principle the Sabbath command was given to represent. That Christ had to fulfill the exalted claims of that 10 commandment law, which includes the Sabbath, and was the only one capable of loving God and his fellowmen perfectly, forever establishes the obligation of that law to those for whom Christ died. Thus it is by our faith in Christ we say amen to this truth and “establish the law” (Rom. 3:31)

Sadly, to their own demise and confusion they ignore Christ’s teaching that the Sabbath was made for man, and thus man, ALL man, are found guilty of offending its claim upon them, even as ALL are now obliged to follow his example and teaching of the reformed NC Sabbath.

For this reason is none free to invent their own theories about the Gospel, ignoring its Jewish context and platform. For to do, so is to welcome all manner of false theories and theological confusion. ALL must go to a Jewish Christ, who proclaims boldly a Jewish salvation (John 4:22) and learn of his Jewish 10 commandment law which features a Jewish Sabbath commandment, now reformed and suited for the New Covenant Gospel. ALL must bow in humble submission before the great Jehovah of the spiritual Israelites and confess that they are dire and destitute of the means to fulfill the exalted claims of His holy law (embodied in the precepts of the Decalogue) and accept his offer of a righteousness equal to that of the law found in to doing of Christ.

Moreover, while it is true that all the precepts of the Decalogue hangs on the two “greatest commandments” (Matt. 22:38), this by no means suggest that they were to be replaced by them. Thus when any of fallen sons of Adam asks ‘how do I love the Lord my God with all my heart and with all my soul and with all my mind’? He must, through the example of Christ, look to the first four precepts of the 10. Likewise with regard to his love to his fellow man must he also see in Christ example and teachings the last six. This Moral Law of the 10 commandments, exemplified by Christ’s life and teachings and interpreted by the writings of the NT, are still and forever such as suited to meet man in his fallen state.

Furthermore, the Bible makes it clear that all are without excuse regarding being capable of understanding the universal principle of love as expressed in the 10 commandments. While it is also clear that love is the fulfillment of the Moral Law (Rom. 13:8-10), and that the “two greatest commandments” are the hinges on which they hang (Matt. 22:40), none can say of them (love, or the two great commandments) ‘what law was it Christ embodied and fulfilled on my behalf’? or ‘how do I know when I offend’? or ‘this standard is too high and lofty for me to relate to or understand.’ For thus says Jehovah:

Deut. 30:11 “Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

Deut. 30:12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?"

Deut. 30:13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?"

Deut. 30:14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.”

Thus did God not leave the application to the universal principle of love to the subjective feelings and “spirit lead” (as some like to call it) whims of men. If it were so, we all may have variations of applications and dub them “spirit lead”. Rather, these words of the 10 commandments are words that are “very near” to all of us and something we ALL may relate to and suited to our constitution (in our mouth and heart). That Christ laid a perfect example of the spirit of this law in fulfilling its requirements of perfect righteousness, does not remove its form as directed by God to meet man in his fallen state.

In conclusion, let all be aware of the leaven of the NCTers! They have run a shipwreck of faith and know it not. They are confounded by their own doing and have fallen headlong into a ditch. Woe to then, for they preach “another Gospel” and are under condemnation!

Gal. 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—

Gal. 1:7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal. 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

Gal. 1:9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

bob_2 · 03-14-10 7:11 pm

I think Dexter has hijacked these verses:

Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Show where the Sabbath command by Paul was part of the Gospel he preached and not that you and Tom are adding to it or preaching another gospel.

Especially when you read Hebrews 8:13 and it states the Old Covenant is obsolete, and the Covenant is the Decalogue and the other rules of Moses Law.

Last edited by bob_2 (03-14-10 7:14 pm)

Dexter · 03-23-10 9:15 pm

Bob_2 said: I think Dexter has hijacked these verses:

Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Show where the Sabbath command by Paul was part of the Gospel he preached and not that you and Tom are adding to it or preaching another gospel.

I say: Sorry Bob, but the evidence is clearly displayed for all to see. Your mishandling of the Word hardly needs further elucidation than your own faulty reasoning.

ALL who insists on refusing to acknowledge Christ’s work as the “messenger of the covenant” (Mal. 3:1) and the great Shepherd of the Christian fold, whose voice ALONE they follow, are charlatans are NOT of Christ’s sheep (John 10:1-18). They are wolves cleverly garbed in sheep’s clothing. So too are those who foolishly reason that the Moral Law with its featuring Sabbath, being a “Jewish law” to which Christ, “born, lived, and died under”, has no bearing on Christians today; that all Christ’s teachings and reforms on the Sabbath and the Moral Law in general was only intended for the Old Covenant Jews.

While looking to the words of Paul (albeit extracted from “under Christ” which is the only context in which it has any value or doctrinal authority) for a mandate on the Reformed NC Sabbath is troubling, “worldly”, and to reason as “mere men”, this is not nearly as bad as the faulty hermeneutic which undergirds it. That they haven’t gleaned this from Paul’s counsel to the Corinthians is quite telling.

Both classes, while giving lip service to the apostle, and claiming to understand his Gospel ministry, are wrong and condemned by the apostle himself as childish, even requiring “milk, not solid food” (I Cor. 3: 2).

How is it they chose to ignore the Lordship of Christ on HIS reformed Sabbath? Is Paul the Reformer of the Sabbath, or the Lord of it? Why then look to Paul for something Christ boldly and rightfully claims Lordship over?

At its core this sort of reasoning is no better than the childish reasoning of many SDAs who think they uphold the authority of God’s word, when they clump Christ’s words as on equal standing with the rest of the Scriptures. Thus interpret Christ’s words as included in the “All Scripture” in II Tim. 3:16.

However, this is incorrect and cannot find heaven’s approval as one “who correctly handles the word of truth” (2 Tim. 2:15) All need to properly understand and relate to Christ’s teaching as a quality far superior and worthy of far greater authority that other passages of Scriptures. Christ’s words are not simply words “given by inspiration of God”, through the subjective experience and humanly articulation of men, but ARE the very words of God, given by God incarnate!

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Heb. 1:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,

Heb. 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Heb. 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Heb. 2:1 We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.

Heb. 2:2 For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment,

Heb. 2:3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.

Heb. 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.

Heb. 3:2 He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God's house.

Heb. 3:3 Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself.

Thus did the apostles esteem the words of Christ and so too must all those who claim to believe in him through their witness. As the Word who from the beginning has been with God and IS God, he it is who is the Church’s truest and number one Apostle whose words we must ALL pay more careful attention to. As head of the body, whose very words are “spirit and life” (John 6:63), he has “supremacy” (Col. 1:18) in every matter concerning his Church and this especially so in doctrine and practice.

So when, through the “spirit of Christ” Peter teaches, all must listen. And when, by that same spirit, Paul instructs, the church must act accordingly. However, when Christ, the greatest Master, Rabbi and Apostle speaks, HIS word establishes doctrine.

Moreover, while it is true that the Sabbath and Moral Law in general are “Jewish” by heritage, which Christ born, lived and died under, this fact by no means suggest that his teachings and example on the Reformed Sabbath are not meant for his body of New Covenant believers.

In fact such an acknowledgment of the Jewish heritage of the Moral Law is right and necessary, and even such as carries “much” benefit (Rom. 3:1, 2). None need be timid or fearful of acknowledging the Jewish platform on which rests the life and teachings of Christ. Here alone is the proper context for understanding all things relating to the Gospel of salvation.

Moral Law, Reformed Sabbath, Forgiveness, Atonement, Justification, Sanctification, Judgment, Christ, etc. – the list goes on and on – are all doctrines that can only rightfully be understood and appropriated in the light of the “very words of God” given to the Jews. So too is the teaching on the covenants and their true application to New Covenant believer.

In fact, of such importance is it that we recognize the Jewish paradigm of the Gospel and everything tied to it, that the Bible associates the Christian church with it. The Bible clearly teaches that the body of New Covenant believers are considered “spiritual Jews” and the true “Israel of God”.

Rom. 2:28 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.

Rom. 2:29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Rom. 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
Rom. 9:2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.

Rom. 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen[a] according to the flesh,

Rom. 9:4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

Rom. 9:5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

Rom. 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

Rom. 9:7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”

Rom. 9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

The Seed, Christ and the Jews

It is hardly debatable but that Christ was “sent was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel” (Matt. 15:24). That this Messiah Christ came “unto His own” is a point the Lord makes very clear.

Matt. 15:21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.

Matt. 15:22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

Matt. 15:23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."

Matt. 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Matt. 15:25 The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

Matt. 15:26 He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

Matt. 15:27 "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

Matt. 15:28 Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

However, a point that is just as clear in the reading of the Bible is that this Messiah Christ, was also the fulfillment the promised “Seed” who was to “crush” the head of the serpent. This is the central thrust of the Bible; that Christ, the promised Seed, would come and rescue man from his fall and captivity to sin.

It would take near perfect ignorance to miss this fact. And yet, by relegating the ministry and teachings of Christ and in particular those on his reformed Sabbath to the Old Covenant Jews, this is precisely what these Gospel hijackers are doing. They mean to relegate Christ’s life and teaching on the Moral Law to the Old Covenant and thus empty it of any significance to the New Covenant.

Worse yet is that their intention in this relegation is to distinguish themselves from the legalistic, misguided, and spiritually blind Jews whose monumental failure in fulfilling their purpose as the “covenanted people” lead to their national rejection by God. They intend to have nothing to do with the class of those who were so off base and enamored by their own faulty interpretation of Scripture as to put to death the very Messiah who came to save them.

Truth be told however, by their very same inoculation of this idea that Christ’s work on the reformed Sabbath has no meaning for Christians, they give evidence that they spiritual descendants of those misguided Pharisees and Teachers of the law. They too, wanted to have nothing to do with this strange and radical new teaching on the NC Sabbath.

However, this complete “casting off” and disassociation of the misguided Jews, while logical, is unbiblical and disregards the very essence of what was intended as a lesson in the experience of the OC Jews; that their experience is a representation of ALL of humanity.

Hence, if we do not see ourselves as being represented in the experience of the Jews, then we have missed the entire point of the Old Covenant / Old Testament as it relates to God’s interaction to fallen man.

Moreover, the recorded history of their experiences is provided to teach us, so that, seeing ourselves in what they went through, we, through the endurance and encouragement these recordings provide, might have hope. (see Rom 15:1-13)

Therefore, when God in the person and work of Christ broke into human history and interacted specifically with the covenanted people, we must see that as representative of his coming and interacting with ALL the world.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

John 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

John 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

II Cor. 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

II Cor. 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

II Cor. 5:20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

How incredibly shortsighted the idea it is to think that such an important event as the incarnation of God in man, would involve of fixing a system destined to become “obsolete” at the time of his departure from our planet. What a waste of time and effort. What utter disregard and careless indifference to the dire situation of man, for the all wise God to spend time wrangling about matters of an imperfect system, when that time could have been spent addressing man’s needs of words of life and hope.

This is precisely what those who espouse such views about the removal of the reformed Sabbath suggest.

How silly!

Bob_2 said: Especially when you read Hebrews 8:13 and it states the Old Covenant is obsolete, and the Covenant is the Decalogue and the other rules of Moses Law.

I say: Here again is expressed a very narrow and shortsighted viewing of Scriptures. By insinuating that the Sabbath of the Moral Law was part of the Old Covenant which is now “obsolete” it fails to grasp the true purpose of the Moral Law in that covenant, even as it ignores the weightier matter of God’s purpose in the giving of the Decalogue to sinful man.

Let this be clear: Christ did not expand on the principles of the Moral Law, which included a radical reform of the New Covenant Sabbath, only to make it “obsolete” at the cross. Such a position is nonsense and utterly absurd.

It is truly remarkable that those who identify themselves by the term “New Covenant Theology” should espouse such an immature view of the Old Covenant. While faulty views on the covenants are prevalent and not unique to any particular group, to choose to identify a system of beliefs by this term falsely gives the impression that here lies a group who are foremost on the subject they are identified by.

Sadly, however, this is just more of the “wretched” and “blind” in the age of the Church characterized as Laodicea. How it is they cling to such a distinction as New Covenant Theology is both laughable and a disgrace to the concept.

The Moral Law and the Covenants:

That the Moral Law of the Decalogue, articulated in the Old Covenant, still continues into the New is clearly taught in the New Testament. Scriptures are replete with examples and teachings on the continuity of the Moral Law in the NC community.

The law defines and makes us aware of sin:

Rom. 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Rom. 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

I John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

The law awakens guilt in the sinner and makes us accountable to God:

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

I Tim. 1:8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.

I Tim. 1:9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

I Tim. 1:10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

The law is a guide and standard of righteousness both now and in the Judgment:

Rom. 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Rom. 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Rom. 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,

Rom. 2:15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Rom. 2:16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Hence the burden of evidence is on those who falsify and twist the evidence to suit their misguided agendas. To do this they perform all manner of proof texting and incorporate a faulty hermeneutics. Thus they ignore Christ’s Lordship over this truth and misrepresent the witness of the apostles. Shame!

Moreover, as a result of hijacking the Gospel from its Jewish platform, yet confronted with the evidence of Scripture against their “other Gospel” teaching, they revert to teaching that the Moral Law still continues, just short of the reformed Sabbath. Thus they are confounded by their own doing yet seek to resolve their confusion by correcting the witness of the apostles. They struggle and fight the testimony of the Spirit and dare to remove the longstanding record of Sabbath observance from the history of Christian church.

But such a position is speaks tremendously about the nature of their campaign. That they persist in promoting this false view should concern all interested in this subject.

Well did Christ ask: "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" Luke 10:26

bob_2 · 03-23-10 10:58 pm

The Gospel is very simply when boiled down to its salvific elements. It is that Christ died for us and saved us from our sins. There is no day commanded in the Gospel to be kept. We will be given the Spirit to direct us in our standard of behavior, but the Gospel + The Sabbath is "another Gospel" than what Paul preached. Christ is our Sabbath, our Rest. We are to worship Him but there is no 24 hour period in the New Covenant era commanded of us to be kept.

Supply the verses giving that command in the NT. Silence is not an answer, a stating of the new tenets of the New Covenant is necessary.

bob · 03-24-10 9:54 am

bob_2 wrote:

The Gospel is very simply when boiled down to its salvific elements. It is that Christ died for us and saved us from our sins. There is no day commanded in the Gospel to be kept. We will be given the Spirit to direct us in our standard of behavior, but the Gospel + The Sabbath is "another Gospel" than what Paul preached. Christ is our Sabbath, our Rest. We are to worship Him but there is no 24 hour period in the New Covenant era commanded of us to be kept.
Supply the verses giving that command in the NT. Silence is not an answer, a stating of the new tenets of the New Covenant is necessary.

Hey Bob-2, this Dexter guy has more bull than Tom. His long posts are so burdensome that one tires after a few paragraphs. Make a point and if we want to know more we will ask.

The Israelites knew/know better than to try to separate the 10 from the remainder of the 306 laws that comprise the Torah. The 316 are inseparable. If one law stands they all stand. The 10 cannot stand alone, the remainder of the law interprets and gives meaning to the abbreviated 10.

SDAs void the remainder except for their modified false tithing system and unclean meat laws. This is quite ridiculous. Any thinking person who has studied the New Testament knows that the Old Covenant is history and the New Covenant doesn't teach ritual law, of which the weekly Sabbath and all the other Sabbaths were a part.

The rest of the Sabbath was to lead the Israelites to the true Rest which is Jesus Christ. Jesus is our true rest not the shadowy 7th day rest. Col 2:16-17 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

If we are still under Torah law then why did Paul write 2Cor 3: 7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Heb 10:15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Love is the Christians law under the New Covenant. The Royal Law of Love and the Holy Spirit in our hearts guide us. Jesus shed blood covers us when we fall.

bob_2 · 03-24-10 12:39 pm

Bob, the real hurdle in this discussion is the lack of knowledge about "Covenants" and what is included, what is the essence of each, and when each started, and what purpose was served.

Those that are just surface trolling about this issue because it effects the Sabbath understanding, have an agenda, and instead of studying the Bible to find out true meaning, they take the Bible and make it say what protects a rather large establishment, Covenant Theology based Protestantism. This group talks of the New Covenant but gets it confused with the discussion of Law and Grace, Faith and Works. If one goes back and just asks what a Covenant is, this would be minimized and the Covenants understood more.

Also, when the Bible doesn't call something a covenant, then it needs to be called what the Bible calls it, as in the Abrahamic Promise. That Promise stays active through Old Covenant and New Covenant. It is what gives the New Testament the validity to included us Gentiles, by adoption.

When the Plan of Salvation, God and Jesus designed in Heaven before Creation is called "The Everlasting Covenant" it overlooks the multiple Covenants and Promise that gets us to this modern era, under the New Covenant.

Last edited by bob_2 (03-24-10 12:42 pm)

bob_2 · 03-24-10 12:55 pm

To Further make this point, note this author on this subject:

Is There A Covenant Of Redemption?
We do not believe that it is wise to refer to God’s plan to save a people in eternity past as a “covenant.” But we do believe that our one God who is three co-equal and co-eternal persons did make a perfect plan that He would save a people from their sins. But if this plan is not called a covenant by the authors of Scripture, we must think twice about describing it by that name ourselves. The reason we should only use the word “covenant” to describe events in Scripture that are actually called covenants is because of the importance of the word “covenant” in Scripture and the place of prominence the concept has in our theological systems. The danger of calling something a covenant that Scripture does not refer to as a covenant increases the likelihood of making something a cornerstone of our theology that in fact is not an emphasis in Scripture. This of course would lead to an unbalanced and unbiblical theological system.

Further reading of this chapter, and this online book is helpful when studying covenants.

Dexter · 03-24-10 1:31 pm

Bob_2 said: The Gospel is very simply when boiled down to its salvific elements. It is that Christ died for us and saved us from our sins. There is no day commanded in the Gospel to be kept.

I say: Persist as you might, Bob, but you are not making any more headway or proving anything other than more confusion.

While it is true that the essence of the Gospel is described in the simple act of belief and faith, it is more dynamic than just this.

How do you suppose sinners come to even have a sense of need to believe this Gospel?

Why do they even have a need of Gospel if there isn’t something first given to awaken a sense of their dire situation and urgent need?

What is this Gospel all about? What sins do you talk about that Christ died for?

What about Judgment that makes the good news of the sinner’s justification such a glorious truth and a reason for rejoicing?

All these question and many, MANY more are emptied of their significance with your “simplistic” view of the Gospel. Thus have you emptied the work of the Cross of its power to save. Are you sure this is the position you want to take a stand on?

Moreover, you speak of “Gospel” as though it too is a New Covenant phenomenon. Have you learnt nothing from the same Paul you obsess over? This Gospel of justification by faith, was also preached to those in the Old Covenant.

Rom. 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Rom. 10:15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

Rom. 10:16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"

Rom. 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Rom. 10:18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."

Rom. 10:19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,
"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."

Rom. 10:20 And Isaiah boldly says,
"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."

Rom. 10:21 But concerning Israel he says,
"All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people."

Heb. 4:2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.

So this idea that there is “no day commanded in the Gospel to be kept” is both a confused reasoning and distorts the Gospel. The Gospel is not about law, let alone any day, but about faith in Christ. Nothing must be added to the Gospel, and in particular nothing of the nature of our works, or else the Gospel has lost its brilliance.

However, what is absolutely necessary to affect the proper application of the Gospel is the teaching of law, sin and Judgment. I suggest you re-read Paul’s epistle to Romans to see how he first lays the foundation of law and sin in all man so that the glorious Gospel, which is the power of God unto Salvation, may shine in its brilliance. See, too his counsel to young Timothy about this same use of law to perform this awakening in sinners.

Bob_2 said: We will be given the Spirit to direct us in our standard of behavior, but the Gospel + The Sabbath is "another Gospel" than what Paul preached.

I say: Once again, there is no such thing as Gospel + ANYTHING. How is it you can’t see this? No one is saved by Gospel +. It is ALL and ONLY the good news of the sinner’s justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in the doing and dying of Christ alone. Your inability to reason through this says a lot about your claim to understand the Bible. A copy of Luther’s Commentary on Galatians would be helpful.

Bob_2 said: Christ is our Sabbath, our Rest. We are to worship Him but there is no 24 hour period in the New Covenant era commanded of us to be kept.

I say: While it is true that Christ is a fulfillment of the shadow of the Sabbath, the way the apostles see it, YOUR view is totally incorrect. The Apostle’s didn’t see Christ as you see him, simply as a name or primarily some sort of label; that is to say, Christ was like Jesus’ surname or some other designation. This is NOT how the Apostles saw Christ.

Christ, to them, represented all that it was his work to do and become. Thus when in Col. 2:17 it says that the Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ, it does not refer primarily to the subjective spiritual rest we experience in when we go to Christ and give him our burdens, but to the results of his work; specifically in bringing to Kingdom of God and our eternal rest. This is what it means to have a “share” in Christ.

Heb. 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.

Heb. 3:13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.

Heb. 3:14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

Heb. 3:15 As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."

It is curious that those who make their claim against the NC Sabbath should run the Hebrew 4 for their support, when the apostle here clearly associates the promised “rest” that “still stand” (Heb. 4:1) for those who are of faith, with such as that will come if we “hold firmly tell the end”.

That Christ laid the foundation for that event in his death and, in a spiritual sense gives us “rest” as a foretaste of the rest we are to experience fully in the coming of God’s Kingdom, is no different than the experience of a OC believer acknowledging that Christ will one day come as the real sacrificial lamb, even while he carries out his ceremonial duty of offering a lamb for his sins. Type can only be met when the anti-type is here.

Bob_2 said: Supply the verses giving that command in the NT. Silence is not an answer, a stating of the new tenets of the New Covenant is necessary.

I say: This smoke screen request for “verses” is both an insult to the work of Christ on his Sabbath reforms and “evil”(see Matt 12). It accords with the same spirit of those who wanted Christ to perform a “sign” so that they might believe. The witness of his work on Sabbath reform was not sufficient for them either. They too wanted some other means than the authority of his words and example to validate his Lordship on the New Covenant Sabbath. WOW! The more you speak, the more you prove yourself their spiritual descendant.

What you need is not more “verses” but eye-salve. Not more commands but a healthy sense of acknowledging and understand the work of Christ.

So please, let’s not side-step the issue and pretend that anyone is being “silent” on this issue. You need to pay attention. Your “silence” on the work of Christ in “stating of the new tenets of the New Covenant”, as the “messenger of the covenant”, is what’s pretty obvious. Your veil is still not lifted because you still chose to ignore Christ’s work.

However, this situation can only be corrected by looking to Christ, and seeing in his work the expanding of the principles of the Moral Law, which includes a very radical overhaul of the New Covenant Sabbath. There ALONE lies this “new tenets of the New Covenant” that you’re desperately trying to invent in the other passages of Scriptures.

bob_2 · 03-24-10 8:53 pm

Galatians 3:19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.

That is Jesus Christ, the Seed. Now what standard of behavior took it's place:

1 Corinthians 9:21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.

What is Christ's Law. In His life He corrected the Jewish leaders that had misunderstood the OC and the essence of the OC, the Decalogue. He fulfilled the Sabbath and became it. You can rest on Saturday if you wish but the Gospel is not the Sabbath, but as my brother says, a gift from God. Enjoy the gift but don't forget Salvation and how it is obtained. Not by obsessing over a 24 hour period.

Do a study on Christ's Law, and find out the standard the Christian should be under:

Paul goes on to explain the purpose of the old covenant law. It was to serve as a custodian or schoolmaster for the children of Israel "until faith should be revealed" (verse 23). In other words, the old covenant law was designed to keep them in the knowledge of God until Christ came, after which faith in Christ would prevail (verse 24). Paul concludes: "Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law" (verse 25).
Paul saw the new covenant as a present reality for Christians, not a future hope.4 In Galatians 4 he figuratively contrasted the old and new covenants to illustrate where Christians’ citizenship lies. The old covenant was represented by Hagar, who stands for Mount Sinai, which in turn corresponded to the city of Jerusalem (verse 25), then the center of Judaism.
The new covenant, on the other hand, was represented by the free woman (by implication, Sarah — see verse 22), who corresponds to "Jerusalem that is above." She "is free, and she is our mother" (verse 26). Paul concluded that as Christians, "We are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman" (verse 31). In other words, Christians are the freeborn children of the new covenant, not slaves of the old covenant.
Then in chapters 5 and 6, Paul explains the implications in one’s behavior of living under the new covenant.

http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/lawtoday.htm

bob_2 · 03-24-10 8:55 pm

And further from that same source:

The Law of Christ
In 1 Corinthians 9:20–21 Paul explains his approach in preaching the gospel, and in doing so he revealed which law he obeyed:
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.
Paul describes himself as not being under the law. From the context it is obvious he means Mosaic Law, the law of the old covenant. But this does not mean he saw himself as without law. Paul was not free from God’s law — he was now under "Christ’s law." It is important to appreciate this distinction. The Mosaic Law was God’s law for the nation of Israel under the old covenant. The "law of Christ" is God’s law for Christians in the New Testament era. The two are not the same.
Serving in the new way of the Spirit rather than the old way of the written code is what Paul describes as fulfilling "the law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). In Galatians he used the term in the context of bearing each other’s burdens. Yet the thought behind the phrase encompasses all that Paul wrote concerning living in Christ. Fulfilling the law of Christ is the way of holiness, as opposed to legalism or antinomianism. According to Raymond T. Stamm,
This law of Christ is not a law in the legal sense of the word, but the life principle of all who take up his cross of creative suffering. (The Interpreter’s Bible [Abingdon, 1953], vol. 10, 574)
Paul used the phrase "law of Christ" after writing about living "by the Spirit" (Galatians 5:16, 25) as opposed to living "under law" (verse 18). Because the Galatian members were so enamored with law, Paul used the word law in a way they had not anticipated. They were not under Mosaic Law, but they were under the law of Christ, which required them to bear each other’s burdens.
In arguing against the position that Christians are no longer under the law, the Judaizer would claim that this would lead to antinomianism. Paul’s response to this reasoning is summarized by John Montgomery Boice:
Finally, the opponents of Paul charged that the Gospel he preached led to loose living. By stressing the law, Judaism had stressed morality. Jews looked down on Gentile sin and excesses. But what would happen if the law should be taken away? Clearly, lawlessness and immorality would increase, the legalizers argued.
Paul replies that this is not true (chapters 5, 6). It is not true because Christianity does not lead the believer away from the law into nothingness. It leads him to Jesus Christ, who, in the person of the Holy Spirit, comes to dwell within him and furnishes him with the new nature that alone is capable of doing what God desires. The change is internal. So it is from within rather than without that the Holy Spirit produces the fruit that is "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control" (5:22-23). Life in the Spirit is free from and above the kind of religion that would result in either legalism or license. It is true freedom — a freedom to serve God fully, unencumbered by the shackles of sin or regulations. (Expositor’s Bible Commentary [Zondervan, 1976], vol. 10, 411)
Oscar Fisher Blackwelder comments:
All this, said Paul, is fulfilling the law of Christ. Law? After the struggle he had gone through to get the law properly placed in his thinking and in his own life, after getting the Galatians free from their entanglement with the law — why on earth did Paul turn again to that word? Was it to give the Galatians a totally new conception of law? Here law undoubtedly means for him the way of Christ, the principles on which the Christian life operates, the act itself of love, of putting into daily living all that he had written about burden-bearing and about the restoration of those who trespass. (The Interpreter’s Bible [Abingdon, 1953], vol. 10, 579)
Equating the law of Christ with the way of Christ hearkens back to Jesus’ parting words to the disciples before his death. Jesus said to them:
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. (John 13:34–35)
Jesus was expanding the injunction in Leviticus 19:18, which Paul quoted in Galatians 5:14, "Love your neighbor as yourself." Christians show they are disciples of Jesus Christ by loving one another as he loves them. The Gospels record how Jesus loved. He was not particularly concerned with the externalities of religious observance, but he was concerned with "the more important matters of the law — justice, mercy and faithfulness" (Matthew 23:23) and "the love of God" (Luke 11:42). He ministered to people in their suffering, he showed them the love of God through kindness, compassion and mercy, and he forgave their sins. To follow the examples and teachings of Jesus that he gave for the church fulfills the law of Christ.
F.F. Bruce identifies features of the law of Christ in Romans 12 and 13, showing how Paul reiterates major teachings of Jesus. He links them with Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount.
Mutual love, sympathy and esteem within the believing brotherhood are to be expected, but this section [Romans 12:9–21] enjoins love and forgiveness towards those outside the brotherhood, not least towards its enemies and persecutors. (Paul, Apostle of the Heart Set Free [Eerdmans, 1991], 110)
Paul’s conclusion concerning law is found in Romans 13:8–10:
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
For Paul, a Christian’s obligation was to love, and everything else was secondary. Regarding circumcision, for example, Paul wrote:
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. (Galatians 5:6)
The Judaizers who wanted Gentiles to be circumcised and come under the Law of Moses were not motivated by love. Paul saw this and clearly identified them as false brothers (Galatians 2:4). They wanted to bring the Gentiles into a form of religious bondage under their control (Galatians 4:17; 6:13). Because their motivations were not right, they violated the law of Christ.
Fulfilling the law of Christ is people-oriented rather than task-oriented. It focuses on relationships, not works of law. The law of Christ cannot be imposed according to an externalized written code because it is written in the heart of the Christian. A written code cannot encompass the law of Christ because it would need to encompass Christ, which is impossible. Christ’s law is an internal principle and way of godly living that produces "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law" (Galatians 5:22–23).
Under the old covenant, the Israelites lived according to the Law of Moses. Under the new covenant, Christians are to live according to the law of Christ. The difference is love generated by the Holy Spirit. It is possible to fulfill outwardly the Law of Moses without love in your heart. It is impossible to fulfill the law of Christ unless there is love in your heart.

bob · 03-25-10 10:54 am

bob_2 wrote:

Bob, the real hurdle in this discussion is the lack of knowledge about "Covenants" and what is included, what is the essence of each, and when each started, and what purpose was served.

Quite true Bob. Covenant theology was never discussed when I was an Adventist. Because I didn't do in depth Bible study on the covenants and just believed what SDAs teach, I was really ignorant until I read Ratzlaf's "Sabbath in Christ".

Those that are just surface trolling about this issue because it effects the Sabbath understanding, have an agenda, and instead of studying the Bible to find out true meaning, they take the Bible and make it say what protects a rather large establishment, Covenant Theology based Protestantism. This group talks of the New Covenant but gets it confused with the discussion of Law and Grace, Faith and Works. If one goes back and just asks what a Covenant is, this would be minimized and the Covenants understood more.

That is why they do not do in depth study on the covenants. Doing so would reveal that the Sabbath was given only to the Israelite nation and ended at the Cross.

When the Plan of Salvation, God and Jesus designed in Heaven before Creation is called "The Everlasting Covenant" it overlooks the multiple Covenants and Promise that gets us to this modern era, under the New Covenant.

Oh my, now you are stepping on Ellen White's toes. Her angel told her the plan of Salvation was arranged after the fall when Jesus went before the Father 3 times, argued His case and the 3rd time He was victorious and thus the plan of salvation was born.

Dexter · 03-26-10 10:49 pm

Bob_2 said: Galatians 3:19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.

That is Jesus Christ, the Seed. Now what standard of behavior took it's place:

1 Corinthians 9:21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.

What is Christ's Law. In His life He corrected the Jewish leaders that had misunderstood the OC and the essence of the OC, the Decalogue. He fulfilled the Sabbath and became it. You can rest on Saturday if you wish but the Gospel is not the Sabbath, but as my brother says, a gift from God. Enjoy the gift but don't forget Salvation and how it is obtained. Not by obsessing over a 24 hour period.
Do a study on Christ's Law, and find out the standard the Christian should be under:

I say: All this doubletalk and dillydallying about the Moral Law and the standard of Christian behavior is not making much sense at all.

How is it they that try to suppress the continuity of the Moral Law of the Decalogue have to resort of all manner of fine-sounding arguments and fanciful interpretations? They talk of such things as being under “Christ’s law” but prove this confession to be mere lip service by their refusal to acknowledge Christ’s Lordship in the issue of Moral Law and in particular the New Covenant Sabbath. Such blaspheme is hardly Christian.

Moreover, they suppose that by adding “Christ” and “Paul” to their arguments that somehow this adds strength and validity. They imagine that in so doing is safety and a setting them self up as “legit”, but the opposite is true. They are not legit or safe in their misappropriation and misrepresentation of the words of Christ and Paul, but are treading a very treacherous path.

Over and over again, the Bible proves to be trustworthy in correctly assessing the nature of man. That Christ dealt with this same spirit of boldness in His opponents who tried to claim other passages of Scriptures (“Moses”) as their authority over Him, proves that human nature has not matured any, neither are we really more spiritually “enlightened” as we would like to think. Here again, is a good example of these hijackers’ true spiritual lineage in the blind leaders of Christ’s day. They too, wanted to add some sense of validity to their continuous assault on Christ’s authority by clinging to “Moses”.

John 5:36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.

John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

John 5:38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

John 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

John 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

John 5:41 “I do not receive honor from men.

John 5:42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you.

John 5:43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.

John 5:44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?

John 5:45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust.

John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Truly, it is quite remarkable that Christ’s rebukes to the Pharisee and teachers of the law apply with the same force and poignancy to their spiritual descendants today. Such is the timeless wisdom in His words. Such too, is the undeniable evidence that humanity is as spiritually blind, if not worse, than it was two thousand years ago. That these modern day Gospel hijackers are to blind to see this is both a testimony to these things and a witness against them.

Thus it is that these hijackers subvert the authority of Christ’s work on Sabbath reform and on the Moral Law in general to their supposed “enlightenment” on the teaching of covenants. They purport that “the real hurdle in this discussion is the lack of knowledge about "Covenants" and what is included”, and not rather their refusal to acknowledge the Lordship of Christ in ALL matters concerning doctrine and practice for His church.

They, like the Pharisee and teachers of the Law, intend to make their “study” of the Scriptures (as it relates to their wanton desire for their beloved “New Covenant Theology”) extend beyond the authority of Christ’s words and work. Woe to them, for they have plotted a course that can only end in utter ruin. They study the scripture, not to see Christ, in His Lordship and Supremacy on these things, but to make the “whole bible” say what their view of the “Covenants” suggests. How tragic.

Thus will they appear on the Day of Judgment without an excuse. The very words of Christ and Paul they pretend to cling to and claim to say supports their boastful and heaven-defying "studies"", will be the very words which condemns them. Only then will they realized that they should have seen in Christ’s work, the ONLY foundation in doctrine and practice the Church is built on. Only then will this false security they depend upon, from their biblical contortionism, be unveiled and laid bare, exposing their true nature as deceivers and self-deceived, even Gospel hijackers.

Moreover, while it is true that Christ came to fulfill the law, expand on the law and suit it for the New Covenant Community, he NEVER claimed to replace the law or that he has “become” the law. This is conjecture at its best.

Matt. 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Matt. 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Matt. 5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matt. 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matt. 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'

Matt. 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

As the above passages reveal, Christ did indeed “fulfill” the Messianic prophecy to “exalt the law and make it honorable” (Is. 42:21 NKJV) in his “You have heard…but I tell you” statements, thus suiting it for the New Covenant era. But nowhere does Christ suggest that he himself is the law, or that the law has been altered from 10 to 9 principles, or that Love, which is and has ALWAYS been the over arching principle and ultimate fulfillment of the law, has replaced the articulated principles of the Decalogue – which the Bible itself teaches are made for “lawbreakers and rebels” (I Tim. 1:9) such as we ALL are (Rom. 3:9-18).

Their claim of “in depth study” on this subject is authentic comedy.

bob_2 · 03-27-10 10:48 pm

Recently Dexter, I was helping my daughter learn about decimals, and as I read your frustration above, I thought maybe there were some similarities.

1. If we don't follow the rules of the subject, we won't conquer the subject!

2, If we don't believe that geometry, and algebra are part of Math and valuable to learn, we probably won't learn Math.

3. If we have our own ideas about Math, and are not flexible in our minds to ask if we have the right ideas about Math, we won't conquer it's contents.

Apply these three to Covenants. It is the key to why the Sabbath was adopted in the mid 1850s because a few thought they knew better than others about the Covenants and how they are to be applied. Without a return to this study, God's Word and Covenants won't be understood. We all will continue to believe and apply what we think the Covenants were about.

JUST SAYIN' !!

bob_2 · 03-28-10 2:31 pm

Dexter, I have used interlining before to respond to others on the Forum, I will take you last post and respond using this tool. You will be in black, I will respond in blue:

Dexter said:

Bob_2 said: Galatians 3:19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.

That is Jesus Christ, the Seed. Now what standard of behavior took it's place:

1 Corinthians 9:21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.

What is Christ's Law. In His life He corrected the Jewish leaders that had misunderstood the OC and the essence of the OC, the Decalogue. He fulfilled the Sabbath and became it. You can rest on Saturday if you wish but the Gospel is not the Sabbath, but as my brother says, a gift from God. Enjoy the gift but don't forget Salvation and how it is obtained. Not by obsessing over a 24 hour period.
Do a study on Christ's Law, and find out the standard the Christian should be under:

I say: All this doubletalk and dillydallying about the Moral Law and the standard of Christian behavior is not making much sense at all.

Dexter, where is the OC divide into ceremonial, civic and moral but by man. It is not Biblical. It is the OC intotal, the Decalogue being the center piece.

How is it they that try to suppress the continuity of the Moral Law of the Decalogue have to resort of all manner of fine-sounding arguments and fanciful interpretations? They talk of such things as being under “Christ’s law” but prove this confession to be mere lip service by their refusal to acknowledge Christ’s Lordship in the issue of Moral Law and in particular the New Covenant Sabbath. Such blaspheme is hardly Christian.

Paul was the one that said he was under Christ's Law, and it was Jesus that said at Paul's Damascus experience that "I will show you things" Acts 26: 15-16

" 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 16'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you.

Moreover, they suppose that by adding “Christ” and “Paul” to their arguments that somehow this adds strength and validity. They imagine that in so doing is safety and a setting them self up as “legit”, but the opposite is true. They are not legit or safe in their misappropriation and misrepresentation of the words of Christ and Paul, but are treading a very treacherous path.

Says who?

Over and over again, the Bible proves to be trustworthy in correctly assessing the nature of man. That Christ dealt with this same spirit of boldness in His opponents who tried to claim other passages of Scriptures (“Moses”) as their authority over Him, proves that human nature has not matured any, neither are we really more spiritually “enlightened” as we would like to think. Here again, is a good example of these hijackers’ true spiritual lineage in the blind leaders of Christ’s day. They too, wanted to add some sense of validity to their continuous assault on Christ’s authority by clinging to “Moses”.

Exactly, but you have what Bob and Bob_2 and others are trying to do, we are trying to advance with the New Covenant. You are the one that is clinging to the old obsolete (Heb 8:13) covenant of Moses. Christ's words were clarifying the OC which he was under. He did give some clarification of what His New Kingdom or New Covenant would contain, but read those statements carefully to see what is included and what is not.

to be continued

bob_2 · 03-29-10 12:54 pm

Continued from Dexter's remarks (my response in blue)

John 5:36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.

John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

John 5:38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

John 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

John 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

John 5:41 “I do not receive honor from men.

John 5:42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you.

John 5:43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.

John 5:44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?

John 5:45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust.

John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Truly, it is quite remarkable that Christ’s rebukes to the Pharisee and teachers of the law apply with the same force and poignancy to their spiritual descendants today. Such is the timeless wisdom in His words. Such too, is the undeniable evidence that humanity is as spiritually blind, if not worse, than it was two thousand years ago. That these modern day Gospel hijackers are to blind to see this is both a testimony to these things and a witness against them.

Dexter, in these verses Christ is defending the correct interpretation of the Old Covenant which was being misinterpreted by the Pharisee, there leaders.

Thus it is that these hijackers subvert the authority of Christ’s work on Sabbath reform

This was correction of OC usage of the law of the Jewish leaders. It was not carried past the institution of the New Covenant.

and on the Moral Law in general to their supposed “enlightenment” on the teaching of covenants.

Dexter, the distinction of ceremonial, civic and moral is a man made distinction. The Law is the whole Old Covenant, all 613 laws or tenets.

They purport that “the real hurdle in this discussion is the lack of knowledge about "Covenants" and what is included”, and not rather their refusal to acknowledge the Lordship of Christ in ALL matters concerning doctrine and practice for His church.

They, like the Pharisee and teachers of the Law, intend to make their “study” of the Scriptures (as it relates to their wanton desire for their beloved “New Covenant Theology”) extend beyond the authority of Christ’s words and work. Woe to them, for they have plotted a course that can only end in utter ruin. They study the scripture, not to see Christ, in His Lordship and Supremacy on these things, but to make the “whole bible” say what their view of the “Covenants” suggests. How tragic.

Dexter, Paul was commissioned by Christ on the way to Damascus and was going to be "shown things" by Christ. Read the story, I have quoted it at least twice.

Acts 26:15 ... " 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 16'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

to be continued

Last edited by bob_2 (03-29-10 12:57 pm)

bob_2 · 03-29-10 1:09 pm

Dexter further says, I am in blue: