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Hubb, here are some of your opening footnotes in your book:
Hebrews 13:20 20 Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,
Genesis 17.7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.
Verse 13, Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.
Verse 19 Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac.[a] I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
1 Chron. 16:1717 He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree,
to Israel as an everlasting covenant:
Psalms 105:10 10 He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree,
to Israel as an everlasting covenant:
Isa 24:1
Gen 9:16 Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenantbetween God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth.”Lev 24:8 This bread is to be set out before the LORD regularly,Sabbath after Sabbath, on behalf of the Israelites, as a lasting covenant.
2 Sam 23:5 “If my house were not right with God,
surely he would not have made with me an everlasting covenant,
arranged and secured in every part;
surely he would not bring to fruition my salvation
and grant me my every desire.Isa 55:3; 61:8
Jer 32:30 30 “The people of Israel and Judah have done nothing but evil in my sight from their youth; indeed, the people of Israel have done nothing but arouse my anger with what their hands have made, declares theLORD.
Ezek 16:60 ; 60 Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you.37:26 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever.
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Hubb, is "everlasting" ever conditional like if one party doesn't hold up their end. The First Covenant was conditional and what happened:
Isaiah 24:5
The earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the everlasting covenant.
If the everlasting covenant is broken, it was conditional. The New Covenant was to be the one forever because it held salvation for who ever chose the gift. Even the remnant of the Jews if they accepted Jesus as Messiah had hope (Romans 11).
But your list of "everlasting" quotes are all over the board. The Noah Covenant was specifically about never destroying the world by water again. Will he destroy it by fire?? 2 Peter 10, 12.
In the plan of salvation two things are forever, the Abrahamic Promise, and the New Covenant.
Romans 4:13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
Abram's belief in God was by faith, as we are saved. The Promise to Abraham was given by God and it was believed by faith before any covenant or circumcision. The Covenant given to the Israelites on Sinai was broken by their unbelief and Jesus came and ushered in the Second Covenant that would be forever, the 1st Covenant, was not forever but is now obsolete: Hebrews 8:13.
Hubb, yes there was an agreement between God and Jesus (Gal 3:17) how they would save man if he sinned.
but the Promise of God accepted by faith is how we will be saved. Abram's faith was shown before any covenant or his circumcision. If it were not for the Promise, no Gentile including you and I could be part of the Plan of Salvation. The only other important part of the Plan of Salvation was the New Covenant ushered in by Jesus.
I Cor 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
It is important to relay the Gospel as it is seen by God and those He inspired. The Promise (based on Jesus willingness to die) accepted by faith, and the blood shed for the New Everlasting Covenant or 2nd Covenant. To proclaim it as one, as you do, you confuse the reader of the word. This is more than a feeling, it is backed by inspired scripture. There are many denomination that are still based on and trusting in the Old Covenant. It is obsolete.
There are many forever covenants, some were conditional and others were one sided like the Noah Covenant and the New Covenant. We can do nothing to break these only not participate in the New Covenant, and be eternally lost.
"MORE THAN A FEELING !!!"
Last edited by bob_2 (12-22-13 12:39 am)
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Bob,
You take 1 Corinthians 9:19-22 and make this list:
1. God's Law
2. Christ's Law
3. Those not having the law
4. Those under the law
From other posts you have made, you make a difference between "God's law" and "Christ's law." Mainly you find that the Ten Commandments are no longer in effect, and that a "law of love" is now the law we follow. Actually, you probably believe that nine of the ten are still in effect, but that the fourth commandment has been changed. To support this you find verses here and there and interpret them to make this conclusion.
This is what comes across to me as "feeling." However, I suspect that you could say the same for me, that my interpretation is a "feeling." So . . . tit for tat!
I would interpret the comments about "the law" as being two things, both problem to the Jews of his day. First, Paul had to deal with the opposition by the Judaizers, who tried to make the new converts first become Jews before they became Christians (Acts 15); This was the belief of the Jews at that time, and many still believe this at this time - that salvation comes by meticulous keeping of the law.
The New Covenant emphasizes that Christ will put the law into our hearts and minds, so that we (Christians) will keep the law from the heart. When Jeremiah wrote this, it was clearly the Ten Commandments law that he was talking about. And Jesus continued to support the Ten Commandments during His life on earth.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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I am not an expert on Hebrew and Greek, but I looked up Jer 31:33 in Strong's Concordance and looked at the word law that was used. The interpretations that may be applicable are:
1. law, direction, instruction
A)instruction, direction (human or divine)
a)body of prophetic teaching
b)instruction in Messianic age
c)body of priestly direction or instruction
d)body of legal directives
B)law
a)law of the burnt offering
b)of special law, codes of law
C)custom, manner
D)the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf … onc_776033
Hubb, "towrah" was used for "law" before there was the Decalogue in the following verse Gen 26:5:
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. H8451 The number is the one given to "towrah" to show when it is used other times. So the meaning need not be the Decalogue as you can see. Hebrew 8:13 and Exodus 34:28 show that the Decalogue was the 1st Covenant and that it is obsolete. The word "towrah" can also mean "instruction in the Messianic age".
Hubb, I don't have any problem worshiping on Saturday, it is adding the mandate to the Gospel that is not able to be proved in the Bible. Speculation, feeling but no hard and fast scriptural support.
Also, you argue that I believe in 9 out of 10 laws. Wrong. All Jesus' teachings, the Sermon the Mount and other directives by Him and the writing Apostles comprise Christ's Law. Way more than 9 laws and cover a lot more situations than were presented to the desert life of the Israelites. Even at Christ's time, who had anticipated synagogues and the laws the Pharisees loaded on the Jews. That is what Christ was against. He was "born of a virgin under the law", :
Galatians 4:4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.
Christ had to keep the Law perfectly that He was born under, and did. But His kingdom, the New Covenant has Christ's Law, a very expanded law with numerous tenets.
Without the Promise to Abraham and his belief by faith, we would not be part of the Plan of Salvation, not able to be Adopted to "sonship".
One other item, God did not create the whole universe when man was created. So God's Law is Divine Law and does not have the detail of the 4th Commandment which talks of maids and menservants, or delivery from Egypt. So the Decalogue was for a unique people and everything surrounding it, the Old or 1st Covenant had an expiration date on it. It was broken, how can something everlasting be broken. The New Covenant can never be broken only rejected.
"More than a feeling"
Last edited by bob_2 (12-24-13 12:46 am)
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Bob,
You have listed a number of verses speaking of the Everlasting Covenant. This is important as this is the basic misunderstanding that you have of the covenant. In short, there is just ONE Everlasting Covenant. It is best expressed in John 3:16 -- The Father GAVE, and the Son CAME. The Bible does not clearly state the position of the Holy Spirit in relation to the Covenant, but His work is also important. The Everlasting Covenant was to restore to man all that he lost in Eden, not just the beauty of the Garden, but also the beauty of the image of God created in mankind (Genesis 1:16, 27). It is through the work of the Holy Spirit that men again partake of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:3-8).
After Israel sinned, had the rebellious festival at the base of Sinai, and broken the "Historical Old Covenant" of human promises; Moses went through a series if intense negotiations and intercessions with God -- not just to forgive them, but to restore them to favor, and to promise His presence with them as they went on to Canaan. See this verse:
10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee. Exodus 34:10 (KJV)
To me, there was a problem in this verse. God had covenanted with Adam and Eve, with Noah, and extensively with Abraham. Now He was "making a covenant" again with Israel? I went back and looked at the covenant with Abraham, and found this:
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:6 (KJV)
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, Genesis 17:2-3 (KJV)
In these two instances, when God clearly gave the covenant to Abraham, Abraham "believed" and "fell on his face" in humble faith that God would do all that He said He would do. Abraham did not do anything more. It seems that the faith response is all that God requires to complete His covenant with men. One must keep in mind that the "faith response" is not passive, it is a "faith that works."
With this in mind, God offers (gives) the covenant to men, and when men respond with the faith response, the covenant is complete. There are often associated circumstances and promises given to support the covenant, but are not part of the Everlasting Covenant. In this one can see that the Everlasting Covenant is permanent, was confirmed by Jesus on Calvary, and becomes the New Covenant mediated by Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary. The faith response is temporary, and needs to be renewed frequently by men.
Please see in my book, "Ratified, Broken, and Renewed" page 87. Also look up in the concordance, "before the foundation of the world."
"... the book of life of the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8)
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Will hell fire be for eternity because it is called everlasting. I believe the position by SDAs is "until consumed" and in another place in scripture
2 Peter 2:6 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
If turned to ash is an example of the Lake of Fire punishment, it is not eternal or everlasting as some churches teach. The SDAs get this one right. Everlasting in that list I gave were some that were and some that weren't, it is your list from your book as examples of everlasting. They aren't all. Context, context, context.
Last edited by bob_2 (12-25-13 3:58 am)
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Bob,
Your father was a classmate of mine. You and I have had some interchanges on the forums, often regarding the Covenant of God.
The least I could do was to send you a copy of my book. Please don't feel obligated to read the book, or to make up a recommendation for the book -- maybe just use it for a reference of what one poor SDA thinks. I don't want to irritate you by expecting that you read the book. Each time I respond to your observations, it takes me at least an hour. I suspect that it takes just as much time for you to do the same. Maybe it is best for us both to pick up books we believe in and use our time more profitably.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Hubb this book may be your "opus" and be it far from me to belittle it. From what I have seen initially it flows similarly to our discussions. The SDA scholars are the ones that are important to sort out the work of your mind and hand. I am no scholar, but feel I have read enough about the New Covenant to speak intelligently about it. Iron on Iron sharpens, my thought is you are at an age that you can not produce or admit the need to produce another "opus". Thanks for your thoughts and it is a debatable issue, and not to judge each other on, since it is not a salvific issue. God Bless you and thank you for your time with me. I have been blessed by it and have a clearer view of the New Covenant because of the time you have taken with me.
I too am now entering retirement with my wife of 40 years. We are looking forward to our time together and travelling to see sights we have not seen so far in our life. Bonnie has major orthopedic surgery in the spring to replace two knees that have worn down after the numerous 12 hour shifts in the NICU. She plans to work a couple more years before retiring. I have retired, mainly due to a number of health issues that label me as disabled. With my 2009 heart bypass surgery and my inherited Factor V Leiden most recently with three Pulmonary Emboli, I finally decided it was time and Social Security agreed. There were other factors but I won't bore you with the details. May you and your wife have many more years of happiness and love. Thanks friend.
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