Hubb Sturges publishes"More than a Promise:The Everlasting Covenant.

bob_2 · 12-03-13 1:41 am

Recently received a copy of Hubb Sturges new book: "More than a Promise: The Everlasting Covenant as Presented Through History".

Here was my initial reaction back to Hubb:

Hubb, thanks for the inclusion of me as one of the scholars that you are seeking recommendation and comments from regarding the Plan of Salvation.
My initial reaction is one that maybe I should leave until I have read it from cover to cover. However, you and I have spoken about the Two Covenants and the Abrahamic Promise, as does the Bible. A covenant, small 'c', of them in the Bible many. Also the word Everlasting can be conditional and we used to talk about how the Jews could break an Everlasting Covenant. They were covenanted to forever be God's people, but failed in their unbelief. The Promise to Abraham is the only thing that makes us adopted sons in the Plan of Salvation, without that Promise and only the Old Covenant, we would be without hope.
The New Covenant, is the only truly Everlasting Covenant, Christ's Kingdom Membership is to believe in the Messiah and His death in our stead. Certainly this was a plan from before the foundations of the earth, because if they were to test Adam and Eve with the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, both God and His Son Jesus, had to have Plan B, the Plan of Salvation.
What you have done, even with your title is confuse the Bible reader, for if it was not for the Promise but the Law, we would be lost. The Promise spoke of Jesus, and that Plan of Salvation. But Paul speaks of the Old and New Covenant. Hebrews 8:13. By dinegrating the Abrahamic Promise, you diminish how we have been allowed to be saved, not being Jewish. Romans 11 talks about the Jews that would not believe, and were as broken branches at the foot of the main Vine, Jesus Chrst.
To talk about The Everlasting Covenant you confuse good scholars and take it down a road that is simple for you.
A book I would recommend for your reading is New Covenant Theology, by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel.
http://www.amazon.com/New-Covenant-Theo … 1928965113
They come out of Reformed Theology or Calvinism and have other things to overcome in this study than you and I. But at least peek at it. They don't get to the Sabbath until Chapter 13, so don't expect that. I still believe in a deay for congregating, but "where two or three are gather in His name" Christ promises to be there. The Sabbath is not part of the Gospel, only as fruit of Resting in Christ, Col 2:16-17 and congregating to worship him. By the way, NCT, clarified for me that their still is Christ's Law in the New Testament that more clearly reflects Jesus the Son of God. However, one can never be saved by striving to be perfect under any law. But Paul in 1 Cor 9:20-21.claims to be under the law of Christ.
I am reviewing the book I recommended for your reading but will try to get through yours. Thanksagain Fellow Scholar.

This was an email sent to him this evening.

tom_norris · 12-03-13 11:13 am

Matt. 15:13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.

Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

hfsturges · 12-03-13 10:28 pm

More Than a Promise

The Everlasting Covenant as presented through History

Hello, Bob,
There is a story behind my book. My son's fiancee was initially a Presbyterian. Her pastor gave her a paper, "The Sabbath and Sunday" written by J. Mark Martin, an ex-SDA preacher in Phoenix, AZ. He dredged up all the old objections to the Seventh-day Sabbath from Canright on. At the very end he presented an objection to the Sabbath centered on the covenant. I knew nothing about the covenant, so I got all the SDA sources that I could find. Most were inspirational writings, with no attempt to solve the hard questions. Mostly they would write about the "New Covenant" but never describe just what it was!

Where covenant questions were addressed, most were dispensational !! Of course, this left us vulnerable to attacks against the law and the Sabbath. For this reason, in 2004 I began my study of the covenant.

Rather than have a series of long tedious posts, I will stop here, and take up one topic at a time.
Hubb

hfsturges · 12-04-13 7:29 pm

The Everlasting Covenant

“God so loved the world that He gave ...” This is the beginning of the everlasting covenant. God, the Father, gave His son to redeem mankind. But there is more: “Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.” John 10:17,18.

The Father “gave,” and the Son “came to live and die” on this earth to pay the penalty for the sins of men. This is the essense of the Everlasting Covenant. Where does the Holy Spiri5t come in? It is the Holy Spirit that makes real the Redeeming power of Christ’s Sacrifice in the lives of men.

When was this done? “...the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Revelation 13:8. This was not understood at first. It was a mystery revealed fully only by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus on this earth. There are a number of verses showing the event “before the foundation of this world.” (See References in chapter 1 of www.everlastingcovenant.com ).

Further, Jesus in His life on earth made it clear a number of times that He came to do the “pre-arranged” will of the Father. (See again References in chapter 1 of www.everlastingcovenant.com )

The everlasting covenant is the New Covenant, My Covenant, the Covenant of Redemption. It was also the Plan of Salvation and the Everlasting Gospel, It was made by God for man. Men had nothing to do to make the covenant, and can not change it nor end it.

(Man’s part later)

bob_2 · 12-04-13 9:35 pm

Hubb, you haven't addressed the points in my letter to you. If you do a good job answering them, Maybe I can give a sterling recommendation for your book.

bob_2 · 12-04-13 9:36 pm

By the way, thanks for jumping in with our discussions. You are more than welcome.

hfsturges · 12-05-13 2:46 pm

The Faith Response

If the covenant of God is Everlasting, is unitary, and cannot be modified, or abrogated; and if there are so many covenants spoken of in the Bible; what is missing here?

This is shown most clearly in the experience of Abraham. In Genesis 15:5,6, God again covenants with Abraham to give him seed as the stars in the heaven. The promise of many seed was to provide a people through whom the Messiah would come. In Galatians 3:16 the the seed of Abraham was most specifically Jesus Christ, Himself. Abraham, “believed in the Lord; and he counted it ro him for righteousness.”

This was the “response of faith.” Abraham simply believed that God would do as He said (Romans 4:3, 9, 18-22). Later we note the same response of faith, “And Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying” (Genesis 17:3).

The Everlasting Covenant was made within the Godhead in heaven, in the eternity before creation. The covenant made with man was for men to respond in faith that God would do all that He said. The covenant with men was temporary, and needed to be frequently renewed.

Abraham was tested for his faith probably more than any other person, except for Christ Himself. Genesis indicates that the covenant with Abraham was to continue to his seed after him. It was given by God to Isaac, Jacob, Moses at the burning bush, Israel when Moses and Aaron talked with them after Moses’ forty years in the wilderness, and to Israel as “My Covenant” (Exodus 19:4-6).

It was the “Abrahamic Covenant” that Jesus confirmed on Calvary. This covenant was given to the church in 1 Peter 2:9. It is most clear in this verse: “And if ye be Christ’s. then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:29).

The Everlasting Covenant, New Covenant, My Covenant, Covenant of Redemption all refer to the single covenant made in the council of the Godhead in heaven before Creation. When presented to men, the “response of faith” completes the covenant and makes it effective. This is the Covenant of Abraham.

Hubert

hfsturges · 12-05-13 2:59 pm

Bob,
In answer to this statement:

"Hubb, you haven't addressed the points in my letter to you. If you do a good job answering them, Maybe I can give a sterling recommendation for your book."

In a discussion of the covenant, you cannot separate out one part, have it stand alone, and make sense to others. A recommendation for my book would require that you understand the entire message of the book. I am trying to hit some of the high points of the book in this discussion.

I realize that it is an imposition to expect that a person read a 300 page book. If you would rather take one part at a time, that is fine, I would ask that where you disagree, please explain why you disagree, and give references (please not Wells and Zaspel).

I do not expect a five star review. I always avoid those when I look at reviews. I would hope that my book will stimulate discussion among scholars, so as to arrive at a true unitary understand of the covenant.

Hubert

bob_2 · 12-06-13 1:02 am

Hubb, the thoughts in my letter to you are mine. Fair is fair. Your response should not be from EGW. All the Bible is inspired and most passages need discernment from studying with the Holy Spirit at your shoulder. But my first paragraph was:

My initial reaction is one that maybe I should leave until I have read it from cover to cover. However, you and I have spoken about the Two Covenants and the Abrahamic Promise, as does the Bible. A covenant, small 'c', of them in the Bible many. Also the word Everlasting can be conditional and we used to talk about how the Jews could break an Everlasting Covenant. They were covenanted to forever be God's people, but failed in their unbelief. The Promise to Abraham is the only thing that makes us adopted sons in the Plan of Salvation, without that Promise and only the Old Covenant, we would be without hope.

This statement should raise questions to you Hubb, but I will put them in question form, my questions.

1. Is Everlasting in the Bible always Everlasting?

2. Is it ever conditional?

3. Can something everlasting ever be broken? Isa 24:5

4. Are the Jews still God's people?

5. The title of your book, does it not demean the Promise of God to Abraham that he accepted by faith that represents how we are saved and not by the law or any tenet of a law?

6. Can an Everlasting Covenant become obsolete? Heb 8:13

7. Do you believe the Abrahamic Promise is key to man's Salvation? Gal 3: 18

Last edited by bob_2 (12-06-13 1:19 am)

hfsturges · 12-06-13 8:56 pm

Bob,
I have used Ellen White a few times as the language of her writing expressed the thought so well. I have not depended on her writings, and will leave out all such references to make it acceptable to you.

1. The “Abrahamic Promise.”
In God’s interaction with Abraham, he referred to/announced the covenant seven times. Genesis 15 presents a covenant ceremony according to the custom of the people at that time. This covenant ceremony was important, but limited to encouraging Abraham that God would, in truth, give him the land of Canaan.
Why are the Jews called the “chosen people?” Answer: because it was Abraham who was chosen. It was the plan of God that a people be preserved through whom the Messiah would come.
The promises to Abraham were to help Israel in fulfilling the purpose of God for them.

2. Is Everlasting in the Bible always Everlasting?
The meaning of this term centers more around the term “forever,” Hannah purposed for her son Samuel, that he would “appear before the Lord, and there abide for ever.” (1 Samuel 1:27). This is further explained when she adds, “Therefore also I have lent him to the Lord, as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the lord.” (1 Samuel 1:28).

For Samuel, “for ever” meant as long as he lived. It seems that this term, and the term “everlasting” extend to the length of time of whatever process is associated. Thus a fire that “burns for ever” or an “everlasting fire” continues until the material is burned up. On the other hand, God is immortal, and forever and everlasting in His case is eternity.

Does the Everlasting Covenant ever come to an end? I am not aware of the presence of the covenant of Redemption in Heaven or the New Earth. The Bible says that angels and the prophets desired to look into the meaning of Jesus sacrifice and the redemption of men. They will have eternity to study the matter, but the covenant of Redemption will have fulfilled its purpose by that time.

3. Can something everlasting ever be broken? Isa 24:5
Let me rephrase the question: Can the Everlasting Covenant ever be broken? The answer is “No!” Obviously the covenant has been broken many times – but this was by the apostasy of men. The blessings from Mount Gerizim were conditional on their obedience, and the curses from Mount Ebal would be applied if they were not obedient.

God will never break His covenant (Leviticus 26:44; Judges 2:1; Jeremiah 33:20-24; Psalm 89:28, 34). But through disobedience and unbelief men will lose faith and break their covenant.

4. Are the Jews still God's people?
God still loves the Jews. If they repent, and accept their Messiah, Jesus Christ, God will graft them back in again (Romans 11:23).

Jesus warned the Jews that they would be rejected and another nation bringing forth the fruits would take their place. See Chapter 34, Probation closed for Israel as a nation. However, “Replacement Theology” is a misnomer. The early Christian church was a Jewish church!

#5. Please restate.

6. Can an Everlasting Covenant become obsolete? Heb 8:13
See #3 above.

7. Do you believe the Abrahamic Promise is key to man's Salvation? Gal 3: 18.
I need more detail on this one.

Please pardon the lengthy post. I would prefer to take one point at a time, and explore it more thoroughly. But please look over the answers I have offered, and give me your thoughts.

Hubert

bob_2 · 12-07-13 11:37 pm

#5 rephrased. Your book says Salvation is more than a promise. I have not waded through it yet, but the Promise is given prominence in the discussion in Galatians 3:

Galatians 3:17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

It appears that this is the main point, to believe by faith in Jesus as Abraham did before any covenant with him. I believe the reference to "the covenant previously established" may be your point of God and His Son agreeing to the Plan of Salvation. But the linkage to another text, I would like to see from you. In my view, "More than a promise" demeans what God did before formal covenants with Abraham, yet he believed that Promise by faith as we are to also. Salvation, forensically or technically , is based on the Promise and Abraham's faith. Anything after was not needed but Abraham asked for proof of the land promise, which was conditional and nothing to do with Salvation. But you make the Promise small while Paul expands it's importance. The law was to a specific time, to a specific people. The Promise goes on even though the curtain in the Holy of Holies was rent from top to bottom, the Promise was still there when the Law was not. The Promise continues through the New Covenant, and is a important part if not the most important example given of how one is saved, by faith in what God and His Son promised. Why try to trump "The Promise" in your title?

hfsturges · 12-08-13 12:03 pm

Bob,
I agree fully with Galatians 3:17, 18.
Strongs makes this definition of “promise:” from <G1861> (epaggello); an announcement (for information, assent or pledge; especially a divine assurance of good) :- message, promise. Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

According to Strongs, the promise of God is more than a human promise. In fact Galatians 3:17 equates “covenant” with “promise” in the same sentence.

The question then boils down to “what is the law in Galatians.” This was a major issue in the discussions of the 1888 General Conference.

The Jews at that time believed that salvation came by meticulous keeping of the “law.” This law included the Ten Commandment law (including all the human ordinances) as well as circumcision and the law of sacrifices. (The ceremonial law includes much more than circumcision and the law of sacrifices!). In Jesus’ conversations with the Jews, they (the Jews) constantly referred to “Moses.” (Matthew 17:4-8; 23:2; Mark 7:10; Luke 16:31; 20:28; 24:27; John 1:45; 5:45, 46; 7:19, 22-23; 9:28-29; Acts 6:11).

In Galatians, Paul was trying to show the Galatians that salvation came through Jesus Christ. The “Judaizers” had persuaded the Galatians that they needed to accept Judaism in order to be saved. This issue was discussed in the Jerusalem and Antioch conferences (Acts 15) which focused on circumcision, the ceremonial law and temple services.

Did this mean that the Ten Commandment law was done away? No! There are too many other references that show that God expects His people to keep the Ten Commandments. In fact, the New Covenant was to “write the law in their hearts” so that their obedience came from the heart rather than a rote obedience where the life remained unchanged.

hfsturges · 12-08-13 2:10 pm

Bob,

Exodus 19:4-6 wrote:

4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

This is the covenant that God offered to Israel at Sinai. “My Covenant” refers to a covenant already established (Genesis 17 also refers to “My Covenant”).

In Genesis 3:15 God said: “I will put enmity between thee and the woman ...” In this God promises to “put” enmity against evil, a conscience, into the woman and her seed. The “put enmity” is a New Covenant action right from the beginning of sin. God took the initiative also with Abraham and offered to do so on Sinai (Exodus 19:4-6). Thus the “New Covenant” was not “New” in Jeremiah or when Christ confirmed the covenant on Calvary. It was New because the covenant ratified by the people at Sinai was “Old.” (Please see chapters 1, 2, 13 on the website).

bob_2 · 12-08-13 2:22 pm

As I said in my original response, you confuse the Bible reader about Salvation by talking about "new" covenants that the NT does not talk about. Hebrew 8:13 talks pretty specifically and The Abrahamic Promise is give great importance in

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

When we shift to EGWs lingo, we get ourselves in trouble with scholars who study the Bible. Me included but I know what EGW does so I understand the basis of your book. Read about SDAs communication with CRI:

http://www.equip.org/audio/various-ques … e-sabbath/

Real scholarly response from SDAs, eh???

Last edited by bob_2 (12-08-13 2:26 pm)

hfsturges · 12-08-13 2:26 pm

Bob,
I am surprised that you question use of the word “Promise” in the title of my book, yet you turn around and equate “Promise” with “Covenant.” When I used the word “Promise” in the title of the book, I am not trying to prove anything. Human promises tend to be transitory and are easily broken. The Covenant of God is permanent, and supported by the blood of Christ. Thus, the Everlasting Covenant is “More than a Promise.”

Bob wrote:

But you make the Promise small while Paul expands it's importance. The law was to a specific time, to a specific people. The Promise goes on even though the curtain in the Holy of Holies was rent from top to bottom, the Promise was still there when the Law was not.

“The Promise goes on.” This is true if you equate “Promise with Everlasting Covenant.” To a “specific people” (probably meaning the Jews). See these verses:

The Bible wrote:

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 1 Peter 2:9 (KJV)
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29 (KJV)

The verse in 1 Peter is quoting from Exodus 19:5-6, giving the Abrahamic covenant to the Christian church. Galatians 3:29 confirms this in saying that all Christians are “Abraham’s seed.”

hfsturges · 12-08-13 3:08 pm

Bob,

Galatians 3:18 wrote:

As I said in my original response, you confuse the Bible reader about Salvation by talking about "new" covenants that the NT does not talk about. Hebrew 8:13 talks pretty specifically and The Abrahamic Promise is given great importance in Galatians 3:18.

The Abrahamic Promise is the Everlasting Covenant. See Genesis 17.
Galatians 3:18 has already been discussed.
The New Covenant (Testament) is spoken of in the New Testament several times (Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthianss 3:6, 14; Hebrews 8:13)

Hebrews 8:13 wrote:

“In that he saith, a new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”

One cannot understand Hebrews 8-10 unless he understands the perceptions of the Jews at that time. The Old Covenant is described and ratified in Exodus 23:20-23; 24:1-11. It was broken 46 days later (Exodus 32:10-20). This was the historical Old Covenant. After Moses interceded for Israel, the Abrahamic covenant was renewed (Exodus 34:6-11). The people responded here by faith, and built the tabernacle.

As time went on Israel began to look on the sacrifices and tabernacle services as in themselves, providing salvation. They forgot the Messiah to whom they pointed. Writings by famous rabbis in the intertestamental period describe a substitutional belief in the sacrifices. The substitution was “the life of the animal for the life of a man.” This was the Experiential Old Covenant. This mindset persisted to the time of Jesus.

This is what Paul wrote against in Hebrews chapters 8-10.

hfsturges · 12-08-13 3:16 pm

Bob,
I am not interested in "scholarly responses from SDA" or other writers. I don't see any point in discussing anything except what you, yourself, have taken as your belief. When it comes to EGW, I have gone through this over and over in forum discussions. It seems that when a person is not able to answer my proposals, they then accuse me of using EGW. If you think I have gotten my ideas from EgW, please give documentation, and show where she is wrong.

Bob wrote:

When we shift to EGWs lingo, we get ourselves in trouble with scholars who study the Bible. Me included but I know what EGW does so I understand the basis of your book. Read about SDAs communication with CRI:
http://www.equip.org/audio/various-ques … e-sabbath/
Real scholarly response from SDAs, eh???

bob_2 · 12-09-13 8:42 pm

Hubb, don't play games of hide and seek with the topic. Here is the same unbiblical "verse" and "prose" you use but is absent from the Bible, and as I have said confuses the reader:

The salvation of the human race has ever been the object of the councils of heaven. The covenant of mercy was made before the foundation of the world. It has existed from all eternity, and is called the everlasting covenant. So surely as there never was a time when God was not, so surely there never was a moment when it was not the delight of the eternal mind to manifest His grace to humanity.

http://egwtext.whiteestate.org/publicat … number=130

Jesus when He lived on earth was asked which was the most important Commandment. He had every opportunity to say the 4th as EGW has.

Mark 12: 28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

What does EGW "see in vision

I did not feel its importance, and thought that Elder B. erred in dwelling upon the fourth commandment more than upon the other nine. But the Lord gave me a view of the heavenly sanctuary. The temple of God was opened in heaven, and I was shown the ark of God covered with the mercy-seat. Two angels stood one at either end of the ark, with their wings spread over the mercy-seat, and their faces turned toward it. This my accompanying angel informed me represented all the heavenly host looking with reverential awe toward the law of God which had been written by the finger of God. Jesus raised the cover of the ark, and I beheld the tables of stone on which the ten commandments were written. I was amazed as I saw the fourth commandment in the very center of the ten precepts, with a soft halo of light encircling it. Said the angel, ‘It is the only one of the ten which defines the living God who created the heavens and the earth and all things that are therein. When the foundations of the earth were laid, then was also laid the foundation of the Sabbath. I was shown that if the true Sabbath had been kept there would never have been an infidel or an atheist. The observance of the Sabbath would have preserved the world from idolatry. The fourth commandment has been trampled upon, therefore we are called upon to repair the breach in the law and plead for the broken down Sabbath. The man of sin who exalted himself above God, and thought to change times and laws, brought about the change of the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day of the week. In doing this he made a breach in the law of God. Just prior to the great day of God, a message is sent forth to warn the people to come back to their allegiance to the law of God which antichrist has broken down.

http://egwtext.whiteestate.org/publicat … number=237

All nonbiblical and against Jesus true message of love and fulfillment (Col 2:16-17) in Himself of the law. The Plan of Salvation in the Bible talks of it as Abraham's Promise, the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Hebrew 8:13 shows the progression and 1 Cor 9:21 refers to Christ's Law as God's Law that he, Paul, is under.

You don't quote EGW but you have done what she did in her time, ascribe knowledge gained to herself, and you declare that, an everlasting covenant, singular, that this is obvious for all to see that there is one everlasting covenant. It will mislead rather than guide.

Also, EGW talks of the "finger of God" as to permanency in this passage, but read what the Bible says about these"engraved tablets":

2 Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Transitory, that is not an "everlasting" covenant, it was the Old Covenant. Abraham's Promise allows us to be eligible for participation in the New Covenant, which will be everlasting. Jesus ushers in this New Covenant at the Last Supper:

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."

Last edited by bob_2 (12-09-13 9:15 pm)

bob_2 · 12-12-13 2:19 pm

Hubb, I would refer you to the Dec 2013 Adventist World, to an article by Ted Wilson, "As Was His Custom: Following the habits of Jesus".

In this article he overlooks that Christ was born of a virgin, under the Law"

Galatians 4:4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.

Now Jesus habits were ones of personal devotion and worship, but which law was He born under, which one was He to keep? What were His habits based on. There were no synagogues when the Law was given in the desert. Society had changed. The Pharisees along with those changes had polluted the law, especially the Sabbath Law. Ted seems to avoid the habits of taking animals by His family to be sacrificed. He was born under the Old Law and expected to abide by it's tenets, not the man-made addons. But what did He show were habits for the period from crucifixion to His Ascension under the New Covenant. No mention of synagogue worship or appearing to the disciples on the seventh day of the week. What happened to Christ's habits. What happened to Him following all the festivals with his family? Passover, Feast of Tabernacles, etc.

Ted Wilson is the leader of the SDA church and should give instruction according to the Bible and not according to his own views or that of EGW. TRUTH.

Last edited by bob_2 (12-12-13 2:23 pm)

hfsturges · 12-19-13 4:39 pm

Bob, your quotation:

Bob wrote:

The salvation of the human race has ever been the object of the councils of heaven. The covenant of mercy was made before the foundation of the world. It has existed from all eternity, and is called the everlasting covenant. So surely as there never was a time when God was not, so surely there never was a moment when it was not the delight of the eternal mind to manifest His grace to humanity.

Angels are ministering spirits, messengers, sent on specific errands (like the resurrection of Christ), protectors of God’s people. Angels and prophets have desired to look into the details of the Plan of Salvation.

The Councils of Heaven refer especially to the councils within the Godhead. When Jesus came to earth, He spoke of a body being prepared for Him, of doing the predetermined will of the Father, of fulfilling prophecy, and of keeping to a predetermined schedule (“Mine hour is not yet come”).

There is much in the Bible to support what the above quotation has said.
.............................................................................

Bob wrote:

Jesus when He lived on earth was asked which was the most important Commandment. He had every opportunity to say the 4th as EGW has.

There was one thing that the Jews were good at – they kept the Seventh-day Sabbath! Jesus did not need to say any more about that, except to open up new ways to keep the Sabbath. Apparently, there was a common discussion among the Jews as to which was the most important commandment. Jesus simply repeated the idiomatic answer which they used, and supported its importance. (Mark 12:28-31).
..............................................................................

You give a quotation of Ellen White having a vision of the ark with the tables of stone, and the fourth commandment with a “soft halo of light.” With those of us who believe that God sent messages to the church through Ellen White, this is an inspiring vision. However, have you ever had me use this quotation at any time in my forum discussions?

There is much that I could say about the Sabbath, but I do not unless someone should ask me a direct question. The time may come when even you will begin to see the beauty and significance of the Seventh-day Sabbath. Something which cannot come from worship on any other day! Many who worship on Sunday, do not "keep" it, but rather celebrate it for just two hours on Sunday, and sometimes no more often than twice a year!

Is the vision non-biblical? No! Absolutely not. The Seventh-day Sabbath is the commandment that guards the keeping of the whole law from the heart. It is the commandment that is a continual reminder that we were created by God, and are kept and sustained by His grace.

bob_2 · 12-20-13 1:08 am

Hubb, I want to be respectful when I say this. But I am not interested in making a cozy nest out of day, but I am interested in how Jesus can give me rest, and how that is a fulfillment of the Sabbath law. There is no holy day in the Gospel. The New Covenant never began until Christ's death. Before that He was dealing with the Mosiac Law and it's provisions. Christ was anticipatory in a lot of His remarks about His Kingdom coming, the New Covenant. Christ's Law is what standards we are to follow. Where not stated, one should not speculate. If this isn't brought home by this passage, I am at a loss to see your path with your teaching:

1 Cor 9:19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

The types of people and laws mentioned:
1. God's Law
2. Christ's Law
3. Those not having the law
4. Those under the law

I think I wish to believe Paul was lead by the Holy Spirit and we should follow his example.

hfsturges · 12-20-13 11:32 pm

Bob,
In your first paragraph, you again explain how you "feel" about the Sabbath. That is perfectly OK with me. You have every right to "feel" that way.

I believe that I have carefully worked through problems in understanding the covenant and the Sabbath. I don't think that we will ever agree. But maybe that is what it takes to make life interesting !!
Hubert

bob_2 · 12-21-13 3:37 am

Hubb, did you ever think that you have too much riding on the Sabbath, the Mark of the Beast, the Final Test, etc. Maybe if you let the words hit you clearly with out prejudice or things that you are invested in, and let the Bible speak for itself that you would see things more clearly?

bob_2 · 12-21-13 3:42 am

That is insulting Hubb, your whole book "More than a Promise" is about your "feelings" parts that are not backed by scripture. I will accept "feel" if you accept "feeling" as summarizing your book, and your surmisings .

bob_2 · 12-21-13 8:18 pm

Hubb, if you want me to back up my position by scripture, not my feeling, if you missed it the first time, I will be more than happy to supply the backup to my position. "More than a feeling."

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