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I was driving this afternoon and listening to Hank Handgraaf, the Bible Answer Man. The question of the Sabbath and New Covenant believers responsibility. I thought he was on the right track but here is summary of his position.
Hank said that the Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ but said the 10 Commandment are still binding, just that Christ fully fulfilled the Sabbath. He feels that Sabbath keeping gives us time to think of God's creation, and our salvation. But all all Commandments are binding. This last statement surpriced me, because he sees no disconnect between the two covenants. There are enough directives that in some cases enlarged on some of the Old Covenant laws. How he gets past 2Cor 3, Eph 2: 14-18, Heb 8:13, I do not know. Don't get me wrong, dwelling thoughtfully any day on God's creation is wonderful, and increasing you time with God also is wonderful, but it is a shadow of the True Rest, Christ.
Last edited by bob_2 (06-17-11 11:56 pm)
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Bob2 said: I was driving this afternoon and listening to Hank Handgraaf, the Bible Answer Man. The question of the Sabbath and New Covenant believers responsibility. I thought he was on the right track but here is summary of his position.
Tom said: You must be kidding? His view of the Sabbath is a train wreck. His position is off the rails. Once again, the talking religious heads are full of double-talk, confusion and much error about the Sabbath.
http://hankhanegraaff.blogspot.com/2008 … trine.html
See:
Sunday Sabbath: Does Sunday Observance Violate the Sabbath?
http://www.equip.org/perspectives/sunda … observance
Listen to the errors of HH:
1. The “SUNDAY SABBATH is Woven Together with Creation.” They teach that Sunday is a valid Sabbath for the church, one that reaches back to the 7th day Sabbath.
2. “The Sabbath command in the Old Testament never specified a “Saturday” observance; rather, it was simply a command that we should observe a cycle of six days of work and then rest for one day. So obviously, the intent of the Sabbath command is kept when we rest on Saturday or on Sunday, it really doesn’t matter.”
3. There is also “some evidence” that Sunday worship was practiced in the New Testament Church.
4. Neither Sunday or Saturday are required of Christians, but yet they are free to embrace either one.
Does anyone here embrace this utter nonsense? This is not real theology in any sense. It is amateur and incompetent theology that makes very little sense. It features more double-talk then facts, and is essentially worthless.
Look at #’s 1 & 3: Where in the Bible did Sunday and the 7th day “come together with creation”?
What kind of double-talk is this? And where in the NT is the authority to declare Sunday a valid Sabbath for the church? Where is such evidence from Christ? There is none.
Look at # 2: Would any Jew agree that the Sabbath command “never specified” the 7th day Sabbath?
Wow! This is an outrageous view that is against the facts of history. No OT scholars would ever agree with this garbage.
Would anyone in Judaism agree that only the concept of a weekly rest cycle was conveyed to the Jews and not specifically the 7th day? Hardly.
No Jew or Rabbi would ever support such sloppy and dishonest Gentile ramblings about the Sabbath. Such historical dishonesty reminds me of the SDA’s. Which only proves that there are legions of false doctrines in every denomination and church in the land. Not one of them has a correct understanding of the Gospel or the Sabbath. They are all spiritually wretched, blind, and naked.
Would any ancient Jew ever say that the 7th day does not matter, or that Sunday will also work as well?
No and no. Which means that such theology is based on incorrect assumptions and false views of both history and theology. Just like the confusion of NCT.
As for #4: How can Christians embrace both Sunday and the 7th day Sabbath? Does the NT permit such a division in the church? And why should any doctrine be embraced, if it is not really a doctrine and thus not required? Why promote fake doctrines? The NT does not allow it. So here is more error upon error.
Does the teaching of Christ contain two competing Sabbath days? Days that are not even required in the first place? Is that even possible?
No. None of these absurd points make any sense. They represent the present confusion and desperation about the Sabbath doctrine, which is universal in the church. No Laodicean is immune to the many Gospel errors that are in vogue.
Listen to HH slam the SDA’s for thinking the Sabbath must be only on the 7th day. However, rather than say they are wrong, he says all are free to pick either day, - or no day.
Here is doctrinal pluralism in action. This is what happens when truth no longer matters. The leaders will promote mutually exclusive views of doctrine and then declare all of them acceptable. This is the Laodicean version of truth. It can be whatever people want. This is also what the SDA’s have done.
2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Pluralism is wrong and very dangerous. It works to dilute, confuse, and destroy Gospel truth in the church. The SDA’s should set an example and be the first ones to repent of this unbiblical nonsense that is destroying them.
Here in more double-talk from HH:
SUNDAY SABBATH- Conclusion:
In fact, in none of these passages is Sunday worship commanded.
Christians are no more required to make Sunday their day of rest than they are to make Saturday their day of rest.
However, of course, they are perfectly free to do so.
In fact, to criticize Sunday observance and then to separate from the rest of the church over something like this, is both legalistic and divisive.
Remember, let’s not focus on the letter of the Law and forget the substance of it. On Sunday and the Sabbath, that’s the CRI Perspective.
I’m Hank Hanegraaff
http://www.equip.org/perspectives/sunda … observance
In conclusion, it is time for the SDA’s to repent of their OC Sabbath error and move forward to the new doctrine of the active, 7th day Gospel Sabbath, as articulated by Adventist Reform.
The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228
It is time for the SDA’s to stop making fools of themselves and move forward to develop the final Gospel Message for a doomed world, which message will also include the Reformed Sabbath of Christ.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, the problem Hank has is not recognizing "until the Seed comes" then the Decalogue is fullfilled by Christ and Christ's Law reigns under the New Covenant. He does what most Evangelical churches do. Hang on to the Ten Commandments but agree with all Sunday keepers that they are keeping the fourth commandment by keeping Sunday. That is not my position and I am surprised it is Hanks. New Covenant Theology solves the problem, with discontinuity of the Covenants, Heb 8:13.
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Bob2 said: Tom, the problem Hank has is not recognizing "until the Seed comes" then the Decalogue is fullfilled by Christ and Christ's Law reigns under the New Covenant.
Tom said: Ha! Neither Hank, nor anyone else can define the Sabbath correctly; much less solve the Sabbath debate. He is wrong on so many levels that it is comical.
How can there be 3 different doctrines of the Sabbath in the Church? This is what he teaches.
And how can there be no doctrine of the Sabbath in the church, as the NTC crowd teaches?
Furthermore, this idea that the law of Christ ignores dealing with the 4th Commandment is absurdly wrong. All 4 Gospels are full of Jesus’ reformed Sabbath teaching for the church. This one fact alone destroys NCT.
The problem is this: there is no correct or valid doctrine of the Sabbath in practice by the Laodicean church. And whenever anyone tries to articulate his or her view of the Sabbath, it is easily shot down, because there is no correct view as yet. At least not until Adventist Reform started promoting the active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath.
Bob2 said: He does what most Evangelical churches do. Hang on to the Ten Commandments but agree with all Sunday keepers that they are keeping the fourth commandment by keeping Sunday.
Tom said: While he does take that view, he also says all the other views are fine as well. Even the no Sabbath view works for him. So he teaches three views of the Sabbath, one of which is consistent with the errors of NCT that you embrace.
Bob2 said: That is not my position and I am surprised it is Hanks. New Covenant Theology solves the problem, with discontinuity of the Covenants, Heb 8:13.
Tom said: Remember that you are the one that posted about HH. You thought he agreed with you, but as you can see, he is all over the place.
You said: “I was driving this afternoon and listening to Hank Handgraaf, the Bible Answer Man. The question of the Sabbath and New Covenant believers responsibility. I thought he was on the right track.”
Not only is he way off track, so too is NCT and so too the SDA’s and the RC’s. They ALL have a false view of the Gospel and the Sabbath. This is the great sin of the blind and wretched Laodicean church. They all think they are correct about doctrine, when they are not.
NCT solves nothing
This quest for full “discontinuity” is very wrong. While there must be some disconnection from Judaism, (no Levites, Tithe, or Temple, etc), there can never be a total separation because all Christian theology is Jewish, even as all must be born again as spiritual Jews. Even such NC rites as baptism and the Eucharist are Jewish in nature, not Gentile.
Both the OC and the NC are Jewish and so too Jesus and the Apostles. So there can NEVER be a full disconnect as you insist.
See: The Continuity versus Discontinuity debate; post # 208
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … id=228&p=9
Just as there was an OC Sabbath, so too is there a NC Sabbath. This theological fact is irrefutable.
I suggest that you stop trying to defend the confusion of NCT and try to better understand the active, NC Sabbath. This would be a better use of your resources.
After many centuries of Sabbath debate, it is time for the correct Sabbath doctrine to emerge in the church.
Here it comes, ready or not!
Thanks to many people over many years, including many SDB’s and SDA’s, including Dr. Ford, a world class Protestant scholar, it is here for all to see.
Let all behold the active and free, 7th day Gospel Sabbath.
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228
Let all repent of their false doctrines and embrace the Reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ, also known as the Lord’s Day.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath
Last edited by tom_norris (06-20-11 5:35 pm)
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