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Well Tom, after you presented the bigger picture, I guess I'll have to repent and agree that we are, and all of His are "Jewish". Even those who never get to "see", and are lost. (Lost at see, haha, sorry, couldn't help myself.)
Anyhow, this also explains why these folks that call themselves The Twelve Tribes teach what they do ( http://www.twelvetribes.com/ ). The Twelve Tribes say that Hebrew is the language of Heaven. They say that Jesus spoke to Paul in the Hebrew tongue in Acts 26. I looked, and sure enough, He did! No wonder they give themselves Hebrew names and call Jesus Yahshua, His Hebrew name, not the Greek Iesous or the English Jesus. I thought that they were taking things a little too far, but now you've convinced me that they're on the right track with that.
They keep the Sabbath too, and not like traditional SDA's, but like you describe it. As a matter of fact, I've visited many of their communities, and I was surprised at the many former SDA's that are members. They lay down their lives for each other in Yahshua's name and leave their doors open, in true hospitality, to all who would seek Him. They say that it is the true demonstration of love, as shown in John 15:13, and 1 John 3:16. They describe 1st John's teachings as the litmus test for Jesus's true followers.
I think I'll call myself Azariah, what do you favor?
Cadge
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Cadge said: Well Tom, after you presented the bigger picture, I guess I'll have to repent and agree that we are, and all of His are, "Jewish".
Tom said: Good for you!
Let all see how easy it is to “repent” of false doctrines and embrace reform. Let the evidence decide the doctrine.
All in Laodicea will have to repent many times as error is discovered and the Gospel is better understood. Any that refuse to repent and reform their doctrines, will be removed from the church, their names taken out of the book of Life.
All that seek Eternal Life in Laodicea, must become experts at repenting and reforming. The status quo is fatal.
Cadge said: Anyhow, this also explains why these folks that call themselves The Twelve Tribes teach what they do (http://www.twelvetribes.com/ ).
Tom said: Interesting group.
They are correct to understand that the Gospel is a Jewish doctrine, and so too the church. But I have not studied their views to make any further comments.
Cadge said: The Twelve Tribes say that Hebrew is the language of Heaven. They say that Jesus spoke to Paul in the Hebrew tongue in Acts 26. I looked, and sure enough, He did! No wonder they give themselves Hebrew names and call Jesus Yahshua, His Hebrew name, not the Greek Iesous or the English Jesus.
Tom said: There is no basis to think that Hebrew is the language of heaven. The reason Jesus spoke to Paul in Hebrew was to impress upon this Pharisee that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah.
Furthermore, Paul did not teach the Gentiles that they were to give themselves new Jewish names, as part of his Gospel teaching did he? Hardly.
So there are some obvious problems with their theology that needs correction, just like everyone else in Laodicea. But who knows what insights they might have for us all?
Why don’t you contact them and see what they teach about the Sabbath. Let them know that the SDA’s are going through a paradigm shift from the Old Covenant to the New, and see what advice they may have for us?
Cadge said: I thought that they were taking things a little too far, but now you've convinced me that they're on the right track with that.
Tom said: Let all understand that there is some doctrinal truth in almost every denomination and church. Even the RC’s have some true doctrines, even as they were instrumental in preserving the Bible.
So every denomination features some specific truth, even as none of them have it fully correct. At the end of time, all such truth must be gathered together so that the pure Gospel can be preached with clarity before the Judgment Day.
Are they on the right Gospel track? They may have some useful insights to share. Only time will tell if they too are ready to dig deep for more truth.
Cadge said: They keep the Sabbath too, and not like traditional SDA's, but like you describe it. As a matter of fact, I've visited many of their communities, and I was surprised at the many former SDA's that are members.
Tom said: Anyone that “keeps the Sabbath” in the manner that Jesus teaches, is far ahead of the rest of the church. Neither the Sunday keeping churches or the SDA’s have a correct view of the Sabbath. So if what you say is true, this group is to be praised for their Gospel insights.
Give us a report on their Sabbath views. Contact them and do an interview on what they are all about.
Cadge said: I think I'll call myself Azariah, what do you favor?
Tom said: Paul did not teach that any Christian should change their name, or go around claiming to be part of the tribes of Israel.
In fact, Paul told the Gentiles that became Christians to “remain” as they were. There is no hint that they were to re name themselves or change their professions, or try to escape slavery, or become hermits, etc.
1Cor. 7:20 Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.
1Cor. 7:21 Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that.
1Cor. 7:22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord’s freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ’s slave.
1Cor. 7:24 Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called.
Paul worked with numerous Gentiles, whose names are recorded in the NT, and none of them changed their names, much less for doctrinal reasons.
Furthermore, when we all get to heaven, then we will each be given a new name, by God. So let’s wait until that time to worry about this point.
Is. 62:2 The nations will see your righteousness,
And all kings your glory;
And you will be called by a new name
Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.
Rev. 2:17 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.’
Rev. 3:12 ‘He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.
I look forward to your report about this group (on another thread).
Tom
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Steve asked: Tom, Do you think that Aventists will give up the teachings of Ellen White?
I am an Evengelical Born again Christian raised in an Assembly of God Church and not sure how to approach Adventists.
I clearly want to show them the love of Christ and not attack them. My heart goes out to them and it appears they are hurting from it.
Besides prayer and show them the Word of God. What would you suggest?
Steve
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Tom Norris replied:
The Fate of SDA’s?
No one should think there is no truth in the Advent Movement, or that the SDA’s have nothing meaningful to contribute to the Laodicean church.
When it comes to eschatology, the Advent Movement, with its' emphasis on the pre-millennial doctrine of the Second Coming, was far ahead of all others. In fact, every denomination that once refused to embrace Adventism, (which was all of them), has since done so. Thus the Adventists have had a major impact on modern church doctrine, but they get little credit for changing the eschatological platform about the Judgment.
Moreover, the SDA’s were correct to recognize the unfolding pattern of the Three Angels Messages, and to further claim that Sunday is a doctrinal fraud and only the 7th day is the correct worship day for the church.
Although few know it, the SDA’s, like Luther, are also correct about the State of the Dead, and for their attempt to push eschatology forward so that they can better understand how the world will end. So they have already made some important contributions to modern theology, and there is no doubt that there is more to come from Adventism.
In spite of the SDA’s many errors, like the IJ, tithe, or even their Old Covenant view of the Sabbath, there is vital truth within Adventism that must be recovered and better understood. This is why the SDA’s must be encouraged to repent of their doctrinal errors and corruption, and go forward to complete Sabbath Reform, and to better understand the Gospel and end time Prophecy. The Advent Movement is not complete or finished.
Jesus Teaching About Reform
Furthermore, Jesus teaches us some important rules about doctrinal correction and reform. He states that before anyone tries to reform or correct others, they must first make certain that they are not guilty of false doctrine themselves.
Matt. 7:3 “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Matt. 7:4 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
Matt. 7:5 “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
While it is obvious that the SDA’s embrace many false doctrines, so too all others, including the Evangelicals. No denomination or church is without error. NONE. They are all guilty of much false doctrine and thus they must also repent and reform as directed by Christ.
While there is doctrinal truth in most every denomination, there is also much error. In fact, the last church era is the worst of all seven periods. Which is why ALL denominations in Laodicea have been judged wretched and blind, full of error, myth, and false doctrine.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealth, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
So which denomination today has the right to correct any other denomination? Not the SDA’s? They are full of error.
So which one should correct the SDA’s?
None of them!
Why?
Because they are full of Gospel error and doctrinal confusion.
Only those that understand the Gospel correctly can correct those in error. But at this point in church history, all have embraced a false Gospel and incorrect Sabbath, and all are condemned. None have any standing to correct anyone else, because they are also wrong.
John 8:7 “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”
There is no church or denomination in Laodicea that correctly teaches the Gospel or the Sabbath. That is why Christ uses the term “blind,” meaning they do not see or understand the Gospel correctly.
Thus the SDA’s are not anomalies; rather it is normal for every church to be full of great error, including the Evangelicals. All those who profess to follow Christ at the end of time, have been judged as needing to repent of their false doctrines. This is the correct Pre Advent Judgment of the church, upon which the fate of all depends.
All Must Repent
All denominations, including the SDA’s, must humble themselves and admit they have misunderstood the Gospel. All must repent for ignoring the teachings of Christ, including his doctrine of the 7th day Gospel Sabbath, which no church has yet to embrace. All Christians, from every church and cult, Roman Catholic or Protestant, must repent for being so wrong about the Gospel, law, and the Sabbath, etc.
Those who embrace the Pre-Advent Judgment of the Laodicean church will go on to understand the Gospel and the Sabbath correctly, as well as how the final events will actually play out. Thus the true church will emerge just before the Time of Trouble, proclaiming the genuine Gospel, and energizing a doomed world with the final message of mercy.
Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.
Rev. 18:2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev. 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;
Matt. 24:14 “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Only those that pay close attention to the teachings of Jesus will understand, repent, and embrace Gospel Reform. Those that refuse to repent, thinking they have no error, will not find Eternal Life. They are doomed.
Ellen White & the SDA’s
As for Ellen White, the 20th century SDA Denomination has long suppressed, rejected, and dishonestly manipulated the teachings of Ellen White. The Takoma Park apologists misused her so badly, that they essentially refuted her most important views, choosing instead to fabricate and promote a false, legalistic, version of Ellen White that prevails to this day.
The modern SDA’s have never been honest about Ellen White’s history, role, or her beliefs. Nor have they followed her views as they pretend. Moreover, they show no inclination to repent for this massive publishing fraud that was discovered in the White Estate in 1979, which is the basis for Traditional Adventism. Unless they repent for Glacier View and make things right, there is no hope for this church.
The sad thing about the SDA leaders is that they have no desire to tell the true story about Ellen White and 1888, or explain what really happened in Battle Creek. They recoil at the very thought of Gospel Reform, because they know it would end their tithe based organizational system that is the source of their hierarchical power and control. These enemies of the Gospel would rather keep hiding the facts and manipulating Ellen White in order to protect a corrupt, hierarchical system that supports them then tell the truth and repent. They are enemies of the cross for all to see.
The Ellen White of history is not the problem, but rather, the White Estate’s version of Ellen White is a fraud. The real Ellen White does not support much of what is taught by SDA’s in her name, nor did she support what took place at Glacier View. Ellen White does not even fully support the doctrine of tithe, even as she warned the leaders that the Spirit had been leading her away from this practice for many years.
But the White Estate was not being honest about Ellen White views. They are a criminal enterprise that has betrayed Ellen White and the Advent people. No SDA should believe anything that comes out of the White Estate until they have repented and corrected the record.
Here are some links about Ellen White.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … e-true.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ipture.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … rophet.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … hite-5.htm
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=225
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … hite-3.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Estate.htm
How To Reform SDA’s?
You also asked how to approach and reprove SDA’s. This is the same as saying “how do you get them to repent and reform?” How can the SDA’s, who act and think very much like the Old Covenant Jews, be made to understand that they need to repent and embrace Gospel Reform? How does one make the blind Laodiceans see?
Matt. 13:15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’
Three Quick Points to help SDA’s Understand:
1. First off, they need to understand that there are serious errors in SDA theology. No church or denomination is perfect, without sin, error or false doctrine. Moreover, Jesus has judged every church in Laodicea as being wretched, blind, and unsaved, full of false doctrine and worthless double-talk. This Pre- Advent Judgment includes the SDA’s. They must acknowledge their errors and repent, fully embracing the Gospel.
2. The White Estate has not been faithful with the writings of Ellen White or church history. They have purposefully misled everyone about Ellen White views of the Law and the Gospel, as well as the Judgment, tithe, hermeneutics, and many other things. Thus the Ellen White of Traditional Adventism is a fraud, and fictionalized character that should not be confused with the historic person. The White Estate should be forced to correct the record.
3. The SDA church is dying for lack of correct mission and message. They have not only misunderstood the law and the Gospel, but they have also lost their eschatological focus. Thus they are way behind and out of date. Today, we live in the 21st century, which means we need cutting edge, up to the minute eschatology, not the stale views from the 19th century. The SDA’s must update their eschatology, and the sooner the better.
In addition, let me give you a more detailed agenda of Adventist Reform. These 12 points that must be properly addressed by SDA’s if they ever want to stop their self-destruction and move forward. Here is a road map to save the Advent Movement.
12- point Summary of Adventist Reform
1. Today the SDA church is teaching the wrong version of the Three Angels Messages. Only the Protestant Gospel and the Second Coming are featured in the original version of the 1st Angels message.
Thus "the hour of his Judgment has come" in Rev 14: 7 is ONLY a reference to the Second Coming, not ever to the IJ, as the modern leaders incorrectly teach. This is what all the Pioneers taught, which means that Traditional Adventism is wrong. It does not have the support of Ellen White or the Pioneers, much less the apostles. The IJ is not a pillar in any Advent Message, and Ellen White never said otherwise.
2. The IJ is not true or valid because the Apostles do not teach this doctrine. In fact, nowhere in the NT is such a Celestial judgment taught, much less one that it started in 1844. The SDA’s must face this fact and repent, even as they apologize to Dr. Ford and beg his forgivness.
3. The SDA's teach a false Gospel that blends JBF with our Sanctification and law keeping. Such a Judaizing doctrine is Roman Catholic, not Protestant. If the SDA's want to be Protestant, they must separate and distinguish the Moral law from the Gospel. They must repudiate their position that Sanctification is salvific, and that it is a sin to work on the Sabbath, even as they repent for both 1888 and Glacier View.
4. The SDA's have the wrong hermeneutic. Ellen White does not have any doctrinal authority and she never claimed otherwise. The White Estate has misled millions on this point. This corrupt institution needs major reform.
Only the Apostles have doctrinal authority for the church, and the Pioneers were in full agreement with this Protestant position. Also, the NT interprets the OT, preventing the unauthorized manufacturer of fictional doctrine as the SDA's have incorrectly done.
Ellen White was NEITHER an Old Testament Prophet nor a New Testament Apostle. Her writings are not inspired like scripture, nor are they scripture. In fact, the Adventist Pioneers taught that Bible Study always trumps any visions that Ellen White may have had on any topic. The White Estate must repent and correct their falsified record and repudiate their “Tests of a Prophet.”
5. The SDA denomination is not organized according to the NT. Rather, it is incorrectly based on the Old Covenant doctrine of tithe and a separate Priesthood. This Hierarchical model that supported both the Levitical Priests and the Temple, is not valid for the church. The SDA Denomination is not the "storehouse" for tithe, as they claim, nor is the General Conference to be compared with the Old Covenant Jewish Temple. This is absurd. Tithe is a false doctrine that mocks the New Covenant and the priesthood of all believers.
New Testament tithe is forbidden in the church and so too a separate, male priesthood that receives such tithe. All that embrace the Gospel must repudiate tithe, and so too the present hierarchical structure that mimics Rome and Old Covenant Judaism.
6. The SDA position about the Two Covenants is very wrong. Their teaching that the 10 Commandments are not part of the Old Covenant is dangerous, false, and legalistic. And so too their position that obedience to the law is salvific.
This is what the famous 1888 debates were all about. But the General Conference, Review, and White Estate hid this information from the church, even as they suppressed and misrepresented Ellen White's views about the law and the Gospel. Thus many of the Old Covenant doctrines that SDA's promote, such as the clean and unclean foods, tithe, and the non-working Sabbath of the Pharisees is wrong.
The SDA's must repudiate their errors about the Law and the Gospel and embrace the Two Covenants correctly. They must tell the truth about Adventist history, even as they must correct the historical record.
7. The SDA's are wrong to promote the doctrine of abstinence, which originates from the Koran. There is no such doctrine in either Judaism or the Christian Faith. Thus the SDA's are teaching, not only Muslim doctrine, but also the false practice of the Lord's Supper.
The NT does not allow Grape Juice to be substituted for naturally fermented wine. Nor can the Lord's Supper be observed with fruit juice.
8. The SDA's have embraced the non-working, 7th day Sabbath of the Pharisees instead of the Reformed, active, New Covenant Sabbath that Jesus teaches in the Gospels. The SDA's have never understood the proper Gospel Sabbath, and neither has the post-apostolic, Gentile church.
When the SDA's grasp the Gospel correctly, they will also understand the Gospel Sabbath. But so far, they have failed to comprehend either.
9. The SDA doctrine of the Pre-Advent Judgment is wrong. It is not Dan 8:14, but Rev 3: 14. Thus the PAJ of the last church is the Laodicean Message, not the Investigative Judgment.
The SDA's need to admit this fact and act accordingly, which means they must repent for their many false doctrines and embrace Gospel Reform. They must apologize to Dr. Ford and to all that they have persecuted.
10. The SDA's must once again understand and embrace genuine Adventist Health Reform. Although this was one area where they were most successful in the 19th century, today they have abandoned the Natural Health movement.
They must correct this great error and make up for lost time.
11. The SDA's do not have credible eschatology for the 21st century. The predicted Sunday laws cannot be the beginning of the time of trouble-- because the NT does not support such a position. Thus they need to pay closer attention to Paul's Gospel based eschatology as well as to the book of Revelation in order to develop a more credible version of Adventist eschatology.
Today, the 3rd Angels Message is no longer united or functional. Which means that the Adventists do not have an active or working prophetic message. To solve this problem, the Advent people must move forward to develop and promote the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18.
Here is the point of the Adventist Apocalyptic, and the reason why the Advent Movement exists; to proclaim the final Gospel message and prepare the church for the Second Coming and the end of the world. Ellen White predicts that the Advent Movement will, at the last minute, make the transition to the 4th Angels Message. Why? Because they will come to understand that the Laodicean Message is the Pre-Advent Judgment, and repent. This is what causes the “shaking” in the SDA church.
12. Once the final generation of Christians understands the last Gospel Message, they must prepare for the great time of trouble that will precede the Second Coming. Those who believe the Time of Trouble is near must take action to survive. They must build cities and villages of refuge-- out of harms way-- in preparation for the Tribulation that is to come.
See also:
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1222173098
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=234
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … rris-1.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Reform.htm
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=233
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=235
I hope this gives you some insight about how to deal with the SDA’s. Regardless of what the SDA's decide to do, the Advent Movement is not finished or complete. There is more to come, so stay tuned.
Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (02-28-11 12:28 pm)
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Ellen White does not even fully support the doctrine of tithe, even as she warned the leaders that the Spirit had been leading her away from this practice for many years.
I read all that you say and find that you do not ever provide references to your statements.
The quote about Ellen not fully believing in the SDA tithing system is a good example Tom. If you mean by not fully supporting the system by her refusing to play by the rules she helped set forth then you are being more than deceitful in your analysis. Where is her statement that the Lord was leading her away from tithing for many years?
Sorry, I believe you are pipe-dreaming.
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Tom, I like this guy's summary of the subject of tithe:
While tithing is not required of the New Testament Christian, faithful stewardship of the money
and possessions God provides is required. Such stewardship includes taking care of one’s family,
paying one’s nancial obligations and debts, paying one’s taxes, paying one’s pastor and supporting
the ministry of the Church, and assisting those who are poor or who are in need. Such giving
ought not to ow only from fear of the Law, but abounds as a fruit of the Gospel. Faithful
stewardship is a loving act of worship and thankfulness toward God and an act of loving service
toward one’s neighbor.
http://www.ulcmn.org/Files/Tithing%20an … rdship.PDF
This sounds like a lot more than 10% you are stewarding as a Christian, eh???
Last edited by bob_2 (03-05-11 4:26 pm)
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Bob, that's a good comment.
Remember, when tithing was set up in the OT it was to be paid on the
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"increase." In their agrarian economy, a family could survive "living off the land" and what profit they made from selling these was an increase.
In today's world, few are farmers and most are employees. For them, just as an employer, the costs of doing
business must be deducted before there is any "increase." First, deductions for transportation to and from work, rent, food, utilities, and necessities for sustaining life, not luxuries. Only afte those are taken care of is their truly an "increase" over and above the costs.
Paul said that one who didn't care for his family was an infidel, so one's familial responsibilites should come first and foremost.
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Savings for retirement or kids college education should also be deducted. One is negligent who doesn't plan for those expenses.
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Elaine, I have recently seen NFL players and owners coveting the 2 billion dollars in "profits" that each want, is that investment in the game or expanding the game a good answer by the owners or maybe tithe on the other billions made by owners and players?
Maybe this is a Socialist thought, but with the have's and the have not's being better and better being demarkated , should we determine the average earning power or worth of a worker, owner, wife, doctor, unemployed or underemployed "whatever" etc. Or can you call the stashing away of the whole pay check as saving for a rainy day so you won't have to rely on society or the church, eh???
Last edited by bob_2 (03-06-11 9:02 pm)
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Bob said: I read all that you say and find that you do not ever provide references to your statements. The quote about Ellen not fully believing in the SDA tithing system is a good example Tom.
Tom said: Bob, Bob, Bob, you must not be paying attention? We discussed this issue of Ellen White and Tithe, including the Watson Letter, complete with "references" in The Fraud of Church Tithing thread.
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=239
See post # 78
Bob said: If you mean by not fully supporting the system by her refusing to play by the rules she helped set forth then you are being more than deceitful in your analysis.
Tom said: Bob, before you call me dishonest, I suggest that you first check the record and look at the facts. Had you done this, you would not now have to admit you are wrong. Perhaps you need some memory medication?
Bob said: Where is her statement that the Lord was leading her away from tithing for many years? Sorry, I believe you are pipe-dreaming.
Tom said: This is always the first reaction. It sounds impossible, but only because the White Estate is a criminal enterprise that has put out so much myth and fiction over the years that the truth seems impossible. But the facts are what they are. The mature, post 1888 Ellen White was a tithe rebel. She not only refused to practice tithe as the leaders requested, but told them that the Spirit had been leading her away from this doctrine. But you never saw this fact printed on any SDA Tithe envelopes have you?
The church leaders did not want to believe Ellen White, and thus they have covered up her anti-tithe views, pretending they are no longer relevant or even correct. Thus the SDA's are great liars that claim to follow Ellen White, but in fact, they do the opposite at every opportunity.
We have gone over this before, but I will post some of it here on this thread. In addition, there will be another post about the Watson Letter shortly, in the Tithing thread. It will have many even more references and links.
In the meantime, here is some of this discussion, from the Tithe thread, about the Watson Letter that you pretend I did not reference:
Tithe & Ellen White:
Bob Shields quoted Ellen White: "The tithe, unlike freewill offerings, is not controlled by the discretion of the one who gives" {5BIO 391.7}
"The portion that God has reserved for Himself is not to be diverted to any other purpose than that which He has specified. Let none feel at liberty to retain their tithe, to use according to their own judgment. They are not to use it for themselves in an emergency, nor to apply it as they see fit, even in what they may regard as the Lord's work."--9T, 247. {5BIO 391.8}
Tom said: It is necessary to know the dates of these statements, because Ellen White changed her view of tithing over time. Thus it is necessary to know not only the dates of these statements, but also the back-story, which has been suppressed by the White Estate.
Bob said: That is good for the flock, but as for the prophet, she was "shown" something else was OK for her.
Tom said: The fact that Ellen White was "shown" that she could ignore how the SDA practiced tithe speaks volumes to us today. The fact that the Spirit encouraged her to disregard Canright's tithe doctrine and move away from it means that there was something WRONG.
Ellen White's re-actions about tithe at the end of her life were a signal to the church that there is error in this doctrine. This is the meaning of her tithe rebellion against the leaders, which they did not want the people to understand. But it has been exposed and now there are more problems for the dishonest leaders. Tithe cannot be defended as a NC doctrine. Period. Which means the SDA's are very wrong about most everything, including how they are financed and organized.
Bob quoted Ellen White: "The Lord has shown me that the experience which your father and I have passed through in poverty and deprivation, in the early days of our work, has given to me a keen appreciation and sympathy for others who are passing through similar experiences of want and suffering. And where I see workers in this cause that have been true and loyal to the work, who are left to suffer, it is my duty to speak in their behalf."
"If this does not move the brethren to help them, then I must help them, even if I am obliged to use a portion of my tithe in doing so." {5BIO 393.2}
Tom said: What do you think would happen today if any Pastor declared that they were going to send their tithe directly to this or that church project, bypassing the Conference?
They would be terminated right away. But yet, this is what Ellen White did for years. And she was not sorry in the least, even though the leaders were furious at her.
This is the real Ellen White.
She was a rebel with a cause. No wonder the leaders decided to hide so much or her material and pretend that she was on their side. After 1888, Ellen White went to war against the hierarchy, but the leaders covered it all up after she died so they could use Ellen White to dishonestly control the church.
I know the real Ellen White. She condemns the White Estate and the GC for a long list of error and sins. She supports Adventist Reform, including cleaning up the dishonest and incompetent White Estate.
Bob asked: Tom, You are telling the flock that it is not a requirement to tithe, yet the prophet is telling the flock that if they don't they will be cursed.
Tom said: As usual, when it comes to Ellen White, nothing is what is seems. Just as few today knew that she drank wine as medicine, few also know how she really viewed tithe.
Bob said: The Lord showed her all about tithing and how it is to be used. Who are you to debunk the tithe that is caring for the needs of all those who receive the benefits from the sacred system? Who is correct, Tom or Ellen?
Tom said: First off, the SDA's invented another version of tithing before Canright came up with the doctrine that is now in use. Ellen White was not the one that came up with any of this, so it is not correct to say, "The Lord showed her all about tithing…" Ellen White was not the author of tithe in the SDA church. In fact, she has done much to weaken this doctrine.
Second, Canright was hardly a trained theologian, much less someone who understands the Gospel clearly. He is the author of the SDA tithe doctrine, not Ellen White. Within a decade of his twisted doctrine, he would repudiate it, and the Sabbath, and leave the church.
Third, it is the authority of the Apostles that alone can determine how the church is financed. Not Canright, Ellen White, or Tom Norris. We must follow Jesus, Peter, and Paul in this matter.
Bob said: Why are you going against the will of the prophet when she so adamant in her statements below??
Tom said: Ellen White has zero doctrinal authority; she is neither an apostle nor an OT Prophet. So I make no pretense of following her will or her interpretations. Only the teachings of the NT can determine if tithe is valid for the church; not anything that Ellen White can ever say or write.
Thus I follow the Protestant Hermeneutic, and treat Ellen White as a historical source and gifted person. But she is not to be viewed as someone who has any claim to understanding doctrine above the apostles or anyone else. She has been wrong many times, even as she points to the Bible as the only authority for doctrine. (See also, the Sabbath debate with Andrews).
Although tithing was developed at a time when the Battle Creek church thought all their views were correct and easily defended, such arrogance would not last long. Within 20 years after Canright introduced his version of tithe, the Battle Creek Empire self-destructed as one doctrine after another was repudiated by once faithful SDA's. Canright was the first to go, leaving the church in 1887. But soon most all the other leaders would leave, including Jones, Waggoner, and Kellogg.
So tithing played a role in the demise of the Battle Creek SDA's, as did the IJ. These were both very legalistic doctrines that re-enforced their false views of the Two Covenants and underscored how confused the SDA's had become about the Gospel.
Consequently, Ellen White had only a short time to deal with this tithing doctrine. And even then, she was out of the Country for about a decade, and then there was the great schism and the move to Takoma Park when she came back.
Besides, by this time, her life was almost over. But we do have her private and public views of tithe, and they are not what the SDA church teaches. The church has not been honest with Ellen White's view of Tithe.
While the modern SDA's have long pretended that the issue of tithe, and most everything else, has been settled by Ellen White's writings, this is not true. Thus the White Estate has presented a dishonest and inaccurate view about Ellen White and tithe, just as they have about so many other things. They have not told the full story and only promoted what they wanted people to hear.
The fact of the matter is that Ellen White does not agree with the SDA leaders about their rules and regulations covering tithe. She refused to follow them, and by the 1890's, she was so fed up with the incompetence from the GC that she used her tithe, and that of others, to help fund the work in the South (US). And she refused to ever change her view on this point.
This is what the Watson letter, written in 1905, was all about. It was Ellen White telling a Conference President that she could use her tithe for the work of the church and that he should "keep cool" about it so that others do not follow her example.
Thus Ellen White's own words and actions do not support what the SDA's teach about tithe. She was "shown" that the church leaders do not have to be followed, and that special circumstances trump their rules.
Watson was furious by Ellen White's dismissal of his authority, which not only cut into his budget, but also seemed to deny the doctrine of tithe. This position could easily open a Pandora's box if everyone decided, like Ellen White, how his or her tithe should be spent.
In fact, after President Watson read the letter, he could not believe it was from Ellen White. He called it "spurious" and accused Edison White of being the real author. Watson was so angry that he confronted Edison and declared that this letter about tithe was "a product of his own evil brain." But both Edison and WC White strongly denied this charge.
Here is the letter:
Mountain View, Calif., Jan. 22, 1905.
Elder Watson:
My brother, I wish to say to you, be careful how you move. You are not moving wisely. The least you have to speak about the tithe that has been appropriated to the most needy and the most discouraging field in the world, the more sensible you will be.
It had been presented to me for years that my tithe was to be appropriated by myself to aid the white and colored ministers who were neglected and did not receive sufficient properly to support their families. When my attention was called to aged ministers, white or black, it was my special duty to investigate into their necessities and supply their needs.
This was to be my special work, and I have done this in a number of cases. No man should give notoriety to the fact that in special cases the tithe is used in that way.
In regard to the colored work in the South, that field has been and is still being robbed of the means that should come to the workers of that field. If there has been cases where our sisters have appropriated their tithe to the support of the ministers working for the colored people in the South, let every man, if he is wise, hold his peace.
I have myself appropriated my tithe to the most needy cases brought to my notice.
I have been instructed to do this; and as the money is not withheld from the Lord's treasury, it is not a matter that should be commented upon; for it will necessitate my making known these matters, which I do not desire to do, because it is not best.
Some cases have been kept before me for years, and I have supplied their needs from the tithe, as God has instructed me to do. And if any person shall say to me, Sister White, will you appropriate my tithe where you know it is most needed, I shall say, Yes, I will; and I have done so.
I commend those sisters who have placed their tithe where it is most needed to help to do a work that is being left undone; and if this matter is given publicity, it will create knowledge which would better be left as, it is.
I do not care to give publicity to this work, which the Lord has appointed me to do, and others to do.
I send this matter to you so that you shall not make a mistake. Circumstances alter cases.
I would not advise that any should make a practice of gathering up tithe money. But for years there have now and then been persons who have lost confidence in the appropriation of the tithe who have placed their tithe in my hands, and said that if I did not take it they would themselves appropriate it to the families of the most needy minister they could find.
I have taken the money, given a receipt for it, and told them how it was appropriated.
I write this to you so that you shall keep cool and not become stirred up and give publicity to this matter, lest many more shall follow their example.
Signed Ellen G. White.
Spalding and Magan Collection, p. 215, 216
http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/contra1.html
This is the real Ellen White that the White Estate did not want the church to know.
The aged and dying Ellen White not only wrote this tithe letter, but also stood behind it, refusing to back down whatsoever. It was Ellen White's position that because the church had failed to do their duty, she could use the tithe to address these failures.
More specifically, she had been shown by God that she could use her tithe in this manner, and thus she had no apologies to offer.
Of course this means that Ellen White is not as pro tithing as the church has pretended all these years. And that no one can use Ellen White to defend tithe paying as the SDA church teaches today.
After 1888, Ellen White knew that she and the church held many errors about doctrine. Thus she called for honest and fair investigations of the issues. But the leaders refused over and over again. As a result, she has gone on the record as not only ignoring and revising Canright's tithe doctrine, but of saying that there are many doctrinal errors that need to be addressed and corrected, including tithe.
Listen to Ellen White:
"There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation." Review and Herald, Dec. 20, 1892
"Those who sincerely desire truth will not be reluctant to lay open their positions for investigation and criticism, and will not be annoyed if their opinions and ideas are crossed." Review and Herald, July 26, 1892
"Those who cannot impartially examine the evidences of a position that differs from theirs, are not fit to teach in any department of God's cause." Review and Herald, February 18, 1890
Bob quoted Ellen White: "The Lord will not hold guiltless those who are deficient in doing the work that he requires at their hands,--in seeing that the church is kept wholesome and healthy spiritually, and doing all their duty; in allowing no neglect which will bring the threatened curse upon his people. A curse is pronounced upon all who withhold the tithe from God." {PH166 20.3}
"The command to pay tithe is so plain that there is no semblance of excuse for disregarding it. He who neglects to give instruction on this point, leaves undone a most important part of his work." {CS 105.1}
"The Lord's messengers should see that His requirements are faithfully discharged by the members of the churches. God says that there should be meat in His house, and if the money in the treasury is tampered with, if it is regarded as right for individuals to make what use they please of the tithe, the Lord cannot bless. He cannot sustain those who think that they can do as they please with that which is His."
R. & H. Supplement, Dec. 1, 1896. {CS 106.2}
Tom said: After the second tithing system was developed by Canright in the late 1870's, Ellen White supported this method wholeheartedly. It seemed better then what they had tried before and thus they all used the Bible to promote tithe for the good of the church.
Lacking theological training, they incorrectly assumed that tithing was like the Sabbath, a Moral law and duty that applied to the church. They also assumed it was practiced by the apostolic church. Which is why Ellen White says the following:
"The New Testament does not re-enact the law of the tithe, as, it does not that of the Sabbath; for the validity of both is assumed." The Faith I Live By, page 244.
Of course this is wrong. Tithing is clearly part of the OC ceremonial laws, while the Sabbath is located in the center of the Moral law, and is a moral law. The SDA's were very naive to think they could invent such a doctrine like tithe without the specific authority of the apostles. But they had become very confused about the Two Covenants as well as very legalistic and hierarchical.
Ellen White did not understand the Gospel correctly until after the 1888 debates, and it took her less than a decade before she questioned tithe and made some dramatic changes about how she embraced this doctrine. Thus Ellen White practiced a variant form of tithing that the leaders did not approve or want to spread.
But guess what? AT Jones, who had left the church, widely circulated the Watson letter. It made a stir. Daniels wrote that Ellen White's tithe letter was being used-in 1907, by many as an excuse not to pay tithe to the newly relocated Denomination.
In order to stop the "evil" use of the Watson letter by the denominations critics, WC White proposed that Ellen White write a pro tithe section for the Testimonies, -quoted previously in 9T, -in 1909, which says the opposite of what she said in the Watson letter.
This in turn led Watson to once again think the letter was a fraud, but WC White again refused such a characterization.
WC White admitted that while it would be easier to "repudiate a few documents that perplex us, and say they were forgeries, it is the truth that makes us free…"
WC White refused to re-classify the Watson letter. He firmly held to the position that these anti-tithe words of Ellen White could not and would not be repudiated by her. One day the church would better understand.
WC White & Ellen White, Jerry Moon, 1993, Andrews Press, pp 410-413.
http://www.tithetruth.org/authority_egw.htm
So Ellen White did not have a rigid view of tithe. In fact, she defied the rules and used her tithe as she saw fit for years. See quote below:
She had a real burden for retired ministers who were in financial need because at that time the church did not have a retirement plan.
She wrote: "Where I see workers in this cause that have been true and loyal to the work, who are left to suffer, it is my duty to speak in their behalf. If this does not move the brethren to help them, then I must help them, even if I am obliged to use a portion of my tithe in doing so.
Quoted in W. C. White, Regarding the Use of the Tithe, Unpublished manuscript, DF 384, EGWRC-GC, ca. 1932.
Now that this information has become public, the church has tried to show that Ellen White is very special and that no one should take such liberties with tithe like she did. Why? Because they do not have the same gifts as Ellen White, nor is anyone else on her level. So she has special privileges.
See: VI. E. G. White's Personal Use of Tithe
http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.or … gy-EGW.htm
But of course the NT does not teach that there are such distinctions, (and neither does Ellen White), much less that there can be tithe or a hierarchy in the church. In fact, the NT teaches the opposite.
Listen to the modern church say that what Ellen did with her tithe was fine, but we must never follow her example:
"It is obvious that on the occasions in which E. G. White appropriated her tithe and the tithe given to her by others, she had good reasons to do it and the support of the Lord.
The tithe was not being misused in any way, but was fulfilling God's intention for the sacred fund."
"Because of her very peculiar ministry within the church, her practice in this area cannot be used as a model by anyone to appropriate tithe for particular projects.
We should also keep in mind that her use of tithe to support Bible workers and retired workers have become accepted practices in the church."
Ellen White endorsed a variant view of tithe that made the leaders angry. She refused to endorse their rigid view, and even accepted the tithe money from others for special projects.
Her actions regarding tithe, as well as her advice to investigate doctrine and follow the Word, do not support the present view, practice, or attitude of the church.
If Ellen White joined our conversation today, she would understand that there is no such doctrine as tithe in the church. And that the present tithe based hierarchy must be replaced with a Protestant system that is democratic and transparent, as well as honest and true.
Sirje Walkowiak said: It's another one of those cases where you pull out something EGW said to prove your own bias or to make a point. Do you do everything EGW said to do?
Tom said: It's another one of these cases where the White Estate has not been honest. It's just one more example of how the church hides half the story, so that they can promote their point of view.
Who ever heard that Ellen White drank wine? But she did and it was in the Review, and on the record, for all to see. But who knew such a simple fact? The White Estate knew, but they covered it up and promoted Ellen White as if she would never in a million years drink a drop of evil spirits.
There is no excuse for such incompetence and dishonesty.
While the church today uses Ellen White 's writings to promote faithful tithe paying, they failed to explain that Ellen White did no such thing, and that she was so disgusted with how the church was being managed, that she made up her own version of tithe that made the administrators hot with anger.
Even more important, she claims that the Spirit encouraged her to ignore the SDA tithe doctrine and take another direction. Those that follow the same Spirit today will take the same position. Tithe is not a valid doctrine in the church.
So once again, the White Estate is the problem. If only the White Estate had told the full story, we could have seen the progression of Ellen White's views about tithe, and many other doctrines. But now, because of the massive suppression and fraud in the White Estate, the real story looks very different from what we have all been taught. Once again the SDA leaders are caught deceiving the people about church history and doctrine.
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … id=239&p=4
Bob 2 said: Tom, I like this guy's summary of the subject of tithe: This sounds like a lot more than 10% you are stewarding as a Christian, eh???
"While tithing is not required of the New Testament Christian, faithful stewardship of the money and possessions God provides is required. Such stewardship includes taking care of one's family, paying one's Financial obligations and debts, paying one's taxes, paying one's pastor and supporting the ministry of the Church, and assisting those who are poor or who are in need. Such giving ought not to flow only from fear of the Law, but abounds as a fruit of the Gospel. Faithful stewardship is a loving act of worship and thankfulness toward God and an act of loving service toward one's neighbor.
The Lutheran author is correct to state:
"While tithing does have Old Testament roots, it is not required of the Christian and ought not to be used as a measure of one's faith. What is required of the Christian is to be a faithful steward of the goods God has provided…"
However, the SDA's deny the above stated fact and pretend that all Christians ARE REQUIRED to pay tithe. Thus faithful stewardship equals tithe paying in the SDA church. This is very wrong, even dishonest and wicked. The SDA's teach false doctrine about tithe and church organization, as well as many other things.
Tithe is not to be used as an example for NT doctrine, much less replicated in the church. It is false, OC doctrine that is banished from the church. So we must disagree with this point, but the rest of what they wrote below is correct. Tithe is not a NC doctrine.
"While tithing may still be helpful by way of example, it cannot be commanded of Christians. Tithing is simply not required by the New Testament Scriptures. Tithing is mentioned in the Gospels by the Jews in conversation with Jesus, but no where does Jesus institute the tithe as a New Testament law. Though mentioned in Hebrews in reference to its Old Testament usage, the apostles do not speak of tithing as an obligation of the Christian either. The command simply is not given to the Christian, individually or corporately, to tithe."
Any that practice tithing do not understand the Gospel. They are repudiating the Protestant position on the Priesthood of all believers, even as they are turning their backs on the New Covenant, in favor of the Old Covenant.
If the SDA's want to be Protestant, they must repent and repudiate Tithe, and re-organize their denomination.
Ellen White was correct to become a tithe rebel and to understand that the Spirit was leading her, and the Advent Movement AWAY from the doctrine of tithe and from a hierarchy. Let all choose to follow the Gospel Spirit into all truth.
John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (03-07-11 7:45 pm)
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I was shown that it is wrong to use the tithe for defraying the incidental expenses of the church. In this there has been a departure from correct methods. It would be far better to dress less expensively, cut down your indulgences, practice self-denial, and meet these outgoings. By so doing you will have a clear conscience. But you are robbing God every time that you put your hands into the treasury for funds to meet the running expenses of the church.—. {CS 103.3}
Contrary to your statement
Ellen White does not even fully support the doctrine of tithe, even as she warned the leaders that the Spirit had been leading her away from this practice for many years.
I submit to you that Ellen, after 1898 and the present tithing system was ratified, ever denied the system or is it recorded that she ever withheld any tithe. She recorded that she faithfully paid tithe. Her tithe may not have been fully given to the GC, but she did pay it. Never did she tell others that they could withhold tithe. SHE FULLY SUPPORTED THE TITHING OF THE INCREASE.
I again submit to you that you are misleading the readers when you tell them that Ellen didn't fully support the tithing system and the spirit was leading her away from the practice.
The following statement proves that Ellen didn't want what she wa doing with part of her tithe to become known to many.
"I send this matter to you so that you shall not make a mistake. Circumstances alter cases. I would not advise that any should make a practice of gathering up the tithe money. But for years there have now and then been persons who have lost confidence in the appropriation of the tithe who have placed the tithe in my hands, and said that if l did not take it they would themselves appropriate it to the families of the most needy minister they could find. I have taken the money, given a receipt for it, and told them how it was appropriated.
"I write this to you so that you shall keep cool and not become stirred up and give publicity to this matter, lest many more shall follow this example.
[(Signed) Ellen G. White" - EGW letter, dated January 22, 1905 (Letter 267, 1905), to Elder G.F. Watson, president of the Colorado Conference (Spalding-Magan Unpublished Testimonies, 215-216) ]
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"increase." In their agrarian economy, a family could survive "living off the land" and what profit they made from selling these was an increase.
In today's world, few are farmers and most are employees. For them, just as an employer, the costs of doing
business must be deducted before there is any "increase." First, deductions for transportation to and from work, rent, food, utilities, and necessities for sustaining life, not luxuries. Only afte those are taken care of is their truly an "increase" over and above the costs.Paul said that one who didn't care for his family was an infidel, so one's familial responsibilites should come first and foremost.
Hi Elaine, the church kept us so broke that we never did show an increase. Four kids in church school and then Adventist college did a number on us financially. For many years I worked 2 and 3 jobs and my wife taught school in order to live in a decent neighborhood. I finally woke up to the fact that tithing is a false doctrine and the church was/is raping the members. Maybe the members have awakened to this fact because only 30% pay an "honest" tithe. No matter what Tom has said, Ellen is responsible for promoting the false tithing system.
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Bob said: I submit to you that Ellen, after 1898 and the present tithing system was ratified, never denied the system or is it recorded that she ever withheld any tithe.
Tom said: One has to be very careful about quoting Ellen White. Without the original dates when her statements were made, it can be misleading. However, there is no question that the mature Ellen White "contradicted" the SDA doctrine of Tithe. This admission is on the record and thus there is no point to pretend otherwise.
Moreover, she was not trying to cause trouble, or promote schism. This issue about tithe was personal. It only became public because of her son (Edson). But once it did, she never backed down, even claiming that this is how the Spirit was leading her.
Bob said: She recorded that she faithfully paid tithe. Her tithe may not have been fully given to the GC, but she did pay it.
Tom said: Ha! The SDA doctrine of tithe does NOT allow for anyone to decide where the tithe money is to go, much less to take the tithe of others and spend it. It must be turned in to the church, and ONLY the leaders decide how it is spent.
I repeat: it is not faithful or correct tithe paying to take ones tithe, or the tithe of others, and send it here or there. In fact, if any pastor tried this stunt today, they would be fired right away, and some have.
So Ellen White DID NOT follow this SDA tithe doctrine and thus she did not "faithfully" or "fully" embrace tithe. Which is why the leaders became so angry and tried to pretend the Watson Letter was a fraud and forgery. But it was not.
Moreover, when confronted with her incorrect tithing, she not only refused to stop, she claimed that the Spirit had been leading her away from this doctrine for years.
Ellen White was a tithe rebel. Period! The facts are what they are.
Bob said: Never did she tell others that they could withhold tithe. SHE FULLY SUPPORTED THE TITHING OF THE INCREASE.
Tom said: False. Ellen White took the tithe money from others and spent it how she thought best.
This is not correct SDA Tithe paying and the leaders were stunned at what she, and others, had been doing.
Bob said: I again submit to you that you are misleading the readers when you tell them that Ellen didn't fully support the tithing system and the spirit was leading her away from the practice.
Tom said: Bob, you could not be more wrong. The facts are clear about what happened. There is no way to pretend that Ellen White was not a Tithe Rebel. She was!
In fact, listen as the leaders try to deal with the "contradictory" positions of Ellen White about tithe. They knew that Ellen White was taking a new and very different position about tithe, even if people try and deny it today. See below:
At a General Conference committee council meeting held behind closed doors in Washington, D.C., Oct. 27, 1913, after reading these two contradictory statements, Elder Watson, holding up one in each hand, said he could not believe that both were written by the same person.
He said he had charged J.E. White, Mrs. White's oldest son, with being the author of the 1906 communication; had told him he believed it was "a product of his own evil brain."
For nearly eight long years he said he had been left in the dark as to whether it was a genuine testimony or not, and asserted that hundreds of thousands of dollars had been diverted from the regular channels by the use that had been made of it.
Finally, in that same meeting, Elder W.C. White, in response to what Elder Watson had said, made the following statement regarding it:
"The (Watson) letter was written by my mother, and was duplicated, and a copy was sent Brother Watson, and another copy, very unwisely I believe, and I am sorry to say, to my brother. What called it out was a letter from my brother to my mother. I am very sorry that the letter was written."
http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/canright/can17.htm
W.C. White is to be praised for his honesty. Even though Ellen White's position on tithe seemed impossible and dangerous and stunned them all, he told the truth and refused to pretend that the letter was a fraud or a mistake. It was neither, and he put this in the official record so that one day the Advent Community would not only learn about Ellen White's changing tithe views, but be warned about this dubious doctrine.
Those that try and spin this issue away, pretending it means nothing, (as the leaders do today), are turning their backs on Ellen White and her spiritual gifts, as well as the Spirit and the Word. Tithing is not a NC doctrine.
Ellen White was on the right track. The Spirit was leading her away from the error of tithe. Good for her. Such action proves that she did indeed have spiritual gifts, even as it also shows how difficult it is for doctrinal truth to overcome false tradition.
Bob said: The following statement proves that Ellen didn't want what she was doing with part of her tithe to become known to many.
Tom said: If Ellen White were properly following the tithe doctrine, why would she want to hide her behavior? And why did the leaders become so upset and try to get W. C White to declare the Watson letter a fraud?
Ellen White was not trying to cause trouble or hurt the work of the church. But when confronted with her longtime behavior, she defended her actions and refused to repent or change.
Furthermore, you need to read the entire letter, not just some portion that you like to quote, as well as understand all the background material. This is the downfall of the SDA Community, they can't understand what the Bible is saying or even what Ellen White is saying. They are so dull that they have a hard time comprehending much of anything. Pity.
Ellen White refused to follow the SDA doctrine of tithe and she never backed down or said she was wrong. She even said the Spirit was leading her away from tithe, which is why she did what she did. Why deny what is so obvious?
"Some cases have been kept before me for years, and I have supplied their needs from the tithe, as God has instructed me to do. And if any person shall say to me, Sister White, will you appropriate my tithe where you know it is most needed, I shall say, Yes, I will; and I have done so."
Like I said, there is another post coming out about the Watson Letter and tithe. It will be full of references for all to see. Including those from the right wing that admit Ellen White was indeed articulating a very different tithe doctrine that should allow the Independent Ministries to receive tithe.
Of course the leaders did not agree. They think Ellen White was very wrong on this, and many other points. But Ellen White is going to have the last laugh, because her views will prevail one day.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (03-08-11 12:03 pm)
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Tom, what I find interesting is that you hang on to the Sabbath though not instructed by the NT, and use the OT only when talking about the Tithe. If your position is something stays in place in the NT/NC unless specifically stated, you have a lot of problems, not just the Sabbath and Tithe.
Last edited by bob_2 (03-07-11 5:18 pm)
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Bob said: Tom, what I find interesting is that you hang on to the Sabbath though not instructed by the NT, and use the OT only when talking about the Tithe.
Tom said: Bob, what I find interesting is that you cannot seem to stick to the issues. Nor can you admit when you are wrong.
We were talking about tithe. You first made the charge that I failed to provide proper sources, and then escalated your claim by charging me with "misleading the readers."
But the facts proved you wrong on both counts. Can you admit this?
So rather than admit that you were wrong, you go off into a diversionary tangent about the Sabbath. Very interesting behavior. It says a lot about the kind of person you are.
As for the Sabbath, Jesus, the head theologian of the church has articulated how the Sabbath is to be viewed by the church. He has done this in all four Gospels, even as his active, 7th day Gospel Sabbath is upheld in the rest of the NT.
So you can pretend that Jesus has "not instructed" his followers about the Sabbath all you want, but the facts are too obvious to deny. Ignore the Gospels and Jesus' Sabbath teaching at your own eternal risk.
As for tithe, it is only an Old Covenant doctrine, so that is why there is not one text in the entire NT that shows a Christian embracing the doctrine of tithe. It never happened.
The apostolic church did not tithe. They were all priests and thus it would have been impossible. So they set up a system of "sharing," as directed by God through Peter in the book of Acts. This is a fact that cannot be refuted. Tithe was forbidden in the NT.
Bob said: If your position is; something stays in place in the NT/NC unless specifically stated, you have a lot of problems, not just the Sabbath and Tithe.
Tom said: Jesus, the Lord of the Reformed Sabbath, promoted the 7th day Gospel Sabbath in all four Gospels. He carefully and repeatedly promoted a New Covenant version of the Sabbath that featured the Priesthood of All Believers.
This new view of the Sabbath was so radical that it was not a sin to work on the Sabbath. The Jews, failing to understand the Gospel, thought he was mad.
However, for those that understood the NC, it was a breakthrough doctrine that underscores the fact that all Christians are priests, even as the banishment of the Levites and the Tithe makes the same point.
Both the OC doctrine of the (non working) Sabbath as well as Tithe, and a hierarchy, are false doctrines. The SDA's are guilty of promoting the wrong Sabbath and the wrong doctrine of church finance and organization.
Moreover, they need to stop pretending that Ellen White supports their utter confusion and error. She supports very little that is taught in her name by the dishonest SDA's.
What a wretched situation.
Tom
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So, we finally realize what Tom believes is a Reformed Sabbath, a "(working) Sabbath. Tom can that be secular, paid work or only Doctor and nurse type work??? Please give sources from the New Covenant that mandate any day of worship, preferably somewhere from Acts to Jude, and something more specific than speculation about what the "Lord's Day" of Revelation is , because I have seen plenty of Sunday keepers calling "the Lord's Day" Sunday. My position and that of those not hanging on to the 1650 CE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era) Westminister Confession is that the Gospel, as preached by Paul mandates no day working or nonworking. (Source from New Covenant or New Testament texts please.) Col 2: 16-17 is pretty clear to me when one realizes that the sectioning of the law into civic, ceremonial and moral law is unbiblical. Notice also 2 Cor 3:7 that talks directly about the law/covenant engraved in stone as fading and the New Covenant/ministry having more glory.
Last edited by bob_2 (03-11-11 3:29 am)
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Tom said: As for the Sabbath, Jesus, the head theologian of the church has articulated how the Sabbath is to be viewed by the church. He has done this in all four Gospels, even as his active, 7th day Gospel Sabbath is upheld in the rest of the NT
Correction, you can not find one text, Tom, where Jesus mandated the Sabbath day. He kept it because He was under the law of Moses and had to live it perfectly. But in the New Covenant no such comand is given by him in the Gospels or Acts to Jude. Any reference in Rev 14 is generic, commandments, which could be any command given by Jesus' apostles but none is a command to keep a Reformed or non-Reformed Sabbath. It is fulfilled in Jesus . It is pointed out that the barrier between Jew and Gentile in the law is broken down. What is the barrier, 1. Circumcision 2. the Sabbath. Jesus had to speak and attend the synagogue because He was under the Old Covenant until His death. It is true that he spoke about His kingdom, but never stated a Reformed Sabbath was part of that Gospel Kingdom. Again if you can supply the texts, I'm open to change my opinion.
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Bob said: So, we finally realize what Tom believes is a Reformed Sabbath, a (“working”) Sabbath.
Tom said: I have been saying this for years. It is also called the Gospel Sabbath or the New Covenant Sabbath. Where have you been?
The 4th Commandment, which prohibits work on the Sabbath, does not, not, not, apply to the Christian. Jesus teaches that those who follow him have no sin or guilt for working on the 7th day.
The Sabbath doctrine exists in the NC as a memorial to the creator God of the Jews, as well as to his Christ and the Gospel.
The OC Sabbath of Moses is not the same as the NC Sabbath of Christ. And the SDA’s are being very foolish to teach otherwise.
Bob asked: Tom can that be secular, paid work or only Doctor and nurse type work???
Tom said: It can be any kind of work. Paid or not paid. Outside work or work in the office. There are no longer any prohibitive rules about Sabbath keeping in the NC, because all are now equal, as priests of God. Thus there is an exemption from the OC Sabbath law that prevents work for all Christians.
The world still functions on the Sabbath, and so too does God and Christ. Thus any kind of “good” work is approved on the Sabbath. It could be pumping gas or performing heart surgery. There is no difference in the law as many assume, nor to Christ’s exemption.
God and Jesus approve any kind of work on the Sabbath, so long as it is good. Thus one can work at a bank on the Sabbath, helping people with their deposits and such, but one cannot rob a bank, because this is not a good deed, but a bad work.
All Christians are priests of God, thus all are allowed to work on the Sabbath, according to Christ. It is a very simple concept, based on the fundamental doctrine of the Priesthood of All Believers. To deny the Gospel Sabbath, is to deny the Gospel, even as practicing Tithe is also a refutation of the Gospel and the NC definition of the saints as priests.
The Gospel Sabbath proclaims freedom from sin, guilt, and the power of the law, even as it honors the creation story and the 7th day Sabbath of the Jews.
The Gospel Sabbath underscores the authority of Christ and elevates him over the law, setting him far above Moses. Although the Jews thought him mad, his Reformed Sabbath was pure theological genius straight from the mind of God. It was always part of the plan of God.
The Gospel Sabbath is an amazing doctrine that must be better understood by any that claim to follow Christ.
I am stunned that the SDA’s, who were hot on the trail of this suppressed doctrine, failed to find it. They came close, but then took a wrong turn in 1888, from which they have never repented. But regardless, the Gospel Sabbath has arrived for all to see. It has found the SDA’s, even though they weren’t looking for any new truth.
Don’t misunderstand, just because one is free to work on the (Reformed) Sabbath, it does not mean there is no religious overtones or special features. There is.
Every Sabbath is a special day for the people of God to come together and hear the Gospel and praise God for his goodness and mercy. This congregational aspect still stands as the primary point of the Sabbath. And so it will be forever.
Which is why we see Paul inviting the entire town to hear the Gospel on the Sabbath. This is the proper use of the New Covenant Sabbath. Following his Gospel Preaching, they were free to go back to their homes, back to work, doing whatever, in order to survive. There were no OC Sabbath rules for the believing Jews or Gentiles. Which is why no such incorrect Sabbath instruction is found in the NT.
The Gospel Sabbath, aka Lord’s Day, is not the same as the OC Sabbath of the Jews. The SDA’s have made a huge mistake on this point. They are very different doctrines. Paul followed the Reformed Sabbath as taught by Christ, not the OC doctrine of Moses.
Bob said: Please give sources from the New Covenant that mandate any day of worship, preferably somewhere from Acts to Jude, and something more specific than speculation about what the "Lord's Day" of Revelation is, because I have seen plenty of Sunday keepers calling "the Lord's Day" Sunday.
Tom said: The NC is just as Jewish as the OC. Both are 100% Semitic. This is why the NC contains so much of the OC, including the doctrine of the Sabbath. All 10 C’s are restated in the NC, even though there is no salvation for obedience to the law.
Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, claims that those who follow him must also embrace his new view of the Sabbath, as well as everything else. This is actually the context of his teaching about the Good Shepherd. The reformed, active Sabbath.
Jesus teaches a working, 7th day Sabbath for those that follow him; not a non-working Sabbath like the Pharisees or SDA’s teach.
As for the Lord’s Day being Sunday. Most people embrace this error. But they are wrong. Jesus does not teach a Sunday Sabbath whatsoever, much less this “No Sabbath” nonsense that some have embraced.
Nor would Jesus embrace the Sunday laws, which are obviously promoting the non-working, Old Covenant aspect of the Sabbath. So the Sunday keepers are double wrong, they have the wrong day and the wrong view of the doctrine as well.
At this point, NO church has the correct Gospel Sabbath. Not the SDA’s or the Sunday keepers. Remarkable, but true. Which explains why the correct doctrine of the Sabbath will become a major point of debate in the last days. It will be associated with a Gospel Reformation in the church, as predicted in Rev 18.
The teaching of the genuine Gospel will expose the correct Sabbath for the church. Then all must make a choice to follow the genuine Christ or not.
Bob said: My position and that of those not hanging on to the 1650 CE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era) Westminister Confession is that the Gospel, as preached by Paul mandates no day working or nonworking. (Source from New Covenant or New Covenant texts please.) Col 2: 16-17 is pretty clear to me when one realizes that the sectioning of the law into civic, ceremonial and moral law is unbiblical. Notice also 2 Cor 3:7 that talks directly about the law/covenant engraved in stone as fading and the New Covenant/ministry having more glory.
Tom said: Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, invented the Gospel. Not Paul. And so too the Reformed Gospel Sabbath under discussion. Those who seek Eternal Life can only receive it from Christ, not Paul. Christians must follow the teachings of Jesus, not anyone else.
Jesus, the head of the church, clearly teaches a working, Gospel Sabbath that was hotly refuted by the Jews. All four Gospels contain the Reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ, even as the rest of the NT, including Paul, supports this active Sabbath, which John calls the Lord’s Day.
I suggest that you pay closer attention to the discussion of the Reformed Sabbath. You misunderstand many things.
Bob said: Correction, you cannot find one text, Tom, where Jesus mandated the Sabbath day.
Tom said: The Gospels are full of Jesus NC, Sabbath teaching. Thus there are many passages that show we must follow the Good Shepherd and his Reformed Sabbath.
Bob said: Jesus kept the Sabbath because He was under the Law of Moses and had to live it perfectly.
Tom said: While the youthful Jesus “kept” the OC Sabbath of the Jews, when his ministry started, he promoted another, much different, NC view of the Sabbath. Thus the active Gospel Sabbath of Christ comes with an exemption from the (non-working) rules of the 4th Commandment.
Bob said: But in the New Covenant no such command is given by him in the Gospels or Acts to Jude. Any reference in Rev 14 is generic, commandments, which could be any command given by Jesus' apostles but none is a command to keep a Reformed or non-Reformed Sabbath.
Tom said: Those that misunderstand the NC teachings of Christ will not understand his doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath. They will think it is Sunday, where it is wrong to work. Or like the confused SDA’s, who have the right day, but also think it wrong to work on the Sabbath. (Some will even deny there is a weekly Lord’s Day for the church.)
Bob said: The Sabbath is fulfilled in Jesus.
Tom said: Which Sabbath do you mean? The OC version or the different NC version? Do you even know there are two different doctrines?
The doctrine of the Sabbath is first and foremost a memorial to the Jewish creator God. This will never change in any Covenant.
Moreover, the Sabbath was never fulfilled by anything, much less by Christ so he could remove it and declare it null and void as you advocate. This is an absurd position.
Bob said: It is pointed out that the barrier between Jew and Gentile in the law is broken down.
Tom said: The NC Sabbath, which is the correct Sabbath for the church, is very different from the OC Sabbath, which prohibited work for all but the Priests.
The Gospel breaks down the barrier of Jewish Law and allows Gentiles into the Semitic Kingdom of God. Thus the Gospel Sabbath reinforces this point, even as all are given a pass around the Sabbath law, (as well as circumcision). Proving that the Gospel is greater than law, and that all may come into the reformed Kingdom of God, which is the Church, without following OC Judaism.
Bob said: What is the barrier? 1. Circumcision 2. the Sabbath.
Tom said: The barrier was all of Judaism, including circumcision and the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment.
Bob said: Jesus had to speak and attend the synagogue because He was under the Old Covenant until His death.
Tom said: When the time was right, Jesus entered the synagogues to proclaim the NEW COVENANT, which also included his REFORMED Sabbath that stunned the Jews.
Had Jesus been promoting such OC doctrines as circumcision or the non-working Sabbath, all would have been well. But he was teaching some very different, even radical points, which is why the Jews rejected him and killed him.
Bob said: It is true that he spoke about His kingdom, but never stated a Reformed Sabbath was part of that Gospel Kingdom. Again if you can supply the texts, I'm open to change my opinion.
Tom said: All four Gospels contain Jesus teaching about the active, NC Sabbath. If you can’t understand this point, or locate these passages, then you will never be able to understand the Gospel. You are not alone; most are blind to the Gospel. Many never understand the Way of Eternal Life. So you are in the majority, my friend.
Keep studying. Perhaps one day you will understand Adventist Reform
Tom Norris for Gospel Reform in the church
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Tom, what arrogance on your part. Your Reformed Sabbath is really stretching it. I gues that is why your posts are so long, to baffle with BS. Sorry Mr. Censor, but this is the most absurd thing I have seen from Tom. Sorry!!! What a shame he is listed as an EXPERT on AllExpert.com. Sheeeesh, as JR would say, RIP.
Last edited by bob_2 (03-11-11 5:39 pm)
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Bob2 said; Tom, what arrogance on your part. Your Reformed Sabbath is really stretching it.
Tom said: Ha! This is how the Jews viewed Christ and his NC Sabbath. They also thought he had lost his mind and was possessed by the devil.
John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”
John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”
Mark 3:22 The scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and “He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons.”
Those who follow Christ will also be misunderstood and slandered like him by those that fail to understand the Gospel. So your reaction is normative.
John 15:20 “Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you
Bob2 said: I guess that is why your posts are so long, to baffle with BS. Sorry Mr. Censor, but this is the most absurd thing I have seen from Tom. Sorry!!!
Tom said: The genuine Gospel makes no sense to many, and neither does the Reformed Sabbath of Christ. This too is normal.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 8:47 “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
Bob2 said: What a shame he is listed as an EXPERT on AllExpert.com. Sheeeesh, as JR would say, RIP.
Tom said: JR made it clear that the SDA’s needed Reform, not total destruction as many advocated. To underscore this point, he drew a line with the Sabbath. He would not allow anyone to use the site to promote an anti-Sabbath agenda. I agreed. The same policy still applies to this site.
Here is JR’s warning to those, like yourself, that would try and eliminate the doctrine of the Sabbath:
#8. This discussion forum is NOT. repeat….”NOT” a hate forum toward the Seventh-day Adventist Denomination, nor is it a forum for the promotion of any other religious faith/philosophy/belief system.
If that is your goal in visiting here….go somewhere else, or start your own website!
Once it is apparent that controversy AGAINST the Seventh-day Denomination is your goal, vs. thoughtful discussion on possible problems within the denomination. Your post will probably be deleted!
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … 9834#p9834
So you have been breaking the rules with your rude and confused campaign against the Sabbath for a long time. If you really think there is no Sabbath for the church, then you need to go post somewhere else, because Adventist Reform will never embrace such blasphemy and absurd theology. Sorry.
I suggest that you use whatever time you have left to try and understand the Gospel and the NC teachings of Christ before it is too late.
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, I have often said what I said here when JR was alive. He even talked to me about my view, which he understood was not anti SDA. Just remember JR was a Seventh-day Baptist when he died. He had left Adventism. Here is the statement I made about my position, same as today, here:
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Tom, before you make accusations, know what you are talking about:
http://www.atomorrow.com/cgi-bin/discus … #POST36757
Go to the beginning of the study about the Sabbath at the cite just given and you will see my point and many others. Your position of allowing secular work is anti - SDA because they will never accept that. The WCG lost a lot of members by taking the postion they did on the Sabbath and all the Festival (Lev 23). SDAs have a place in Christiandom if they recognize it and it is about Sanctification and it's part in the Christian's Salvation, a coperative work between the Holy Spirit and man. Man is to fight the good fight, run a good race, not, as some Evangelicals would have it no effort on man's part at all. That is antinomian and not my position.
Last edited by bob_2 (03-12-11 3:07 pm)
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Bob said: Tom, I have often said what I said here when JR was alive. He even talked to me about my view, which he understood was not anti SDA.
Tom said: Any position that claims there is no weekly Sabbath for the church, is not only absurdly wrong and impossible, it also repudiates fundamental SDA theology. Sorry.
Bob said: Your position of allowing secular work is anti - SDA because they will never accept that.
Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. Since when is doctrine judged by those that receive it? Who cares what the SDA’s say about anything? They don’t have enough sense to know what is true or false doctrine.
The Jews refused Jesus position on the Sabbath. So what? Does their unbelief negate true doctrine? Hardly.
The Jews could not fathom Jesus view that one could now work on the Sabbath. They were stunned by such a strange concept and so too are the OC minded SDA’s. But truth is truth, regardless who accepts it or not.
The 7th day, Gospel Sabbath represents the culmination of Sabbath Reform. This NC doctrine paves the way for the paradigm change from the 3rd Angels Message to the 4th.
Thus the Reformed Sabbath will energize, save, and re-focus the self-destructing Advent Movement, allowing it to move forward within the Adventist Apocalyptic.
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Tom, several points:
1. A person can worship on Saturday and not consider it salvific, and could worship with his friend on Sunday and not be damned to hell. That's my position and I'm sticking to it. Christ is the fulfillment of the Sabbath as stated in Col 2:16-17. Our True Rest because His death is the only thing that could bring forgiveness from sin and rest to our souls, a day can't do that.
2. Christ never did anything of secular nature on Sabbath, so pray tell where your Reformed Sabbath has its roots?
3. We are urged by the Bible to forsake not the assembly of ourselves (Heb 10:25), but it leaves us to be convinced in our own mind which day. (Romans 14:5)
Last edited by bob_2 (03-12-11 8:19 pm)
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Bob 2 said: 1. A person can worship on Saturday and not consider it salvific, and could worship with his friend on Sunday and not be damned to hell.
Tom said: Sinners are only saved by following Christ, and his Gospel teaching. Those that honestly want to follow Jesus, must also embrace his view of the Gospel Sabbath, as well as everything else.
Those who pretend to follow Christ, but do the opposite of what he teaches, will be damned to hell.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Bob 2 said: Christ is the fulfillment of the Sabbath as stated in Col 2:16-17.
Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —
Col. 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Tom said: These passages are not saying what you claim. Colossians speaks about not allowing anyone to make judgments about how one embraces the Sabbath. It does not say that Christ is the fulfillment of the Sabbath as you claim, or as others claim, that there is no Sabbath.
Nor does any passage in the NT teach, “Christ is the fulfillment of the Sabbath.” There is not one Gospel passage that makes such a point. Thus it is false doctrine.
So you are wrong.
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242
Bob2 said: Jesus is Our True Rest because His death is the only thing that could bring forgiveness from sin and rest to our souls, a day can't do that.
Tom said: Who is saying that a Day can save or give rest? Not me. Only the Gospel can save. Only Jesus can give true “spiritual rest” and Eternal Life.
How one views the Sabbath shows if they are embracing the correct Gospel or not. There is only one Gospel and one NC Sabbath, not many. When the SDA’s embrace the active, Gospel Sabbath, they will have reached the completion of Sabbath Reform. This will allow the Advent Movement to lurch forward to the 4th Message, which is their destiny.
So Wake Up, SDA’s; understand, repent, and move forward before it is too late.
Bob 2 said: 2. Christ never did anything of secular nature on Sabbath, so pray tell where your Reformed Sabbath has its roots?
Tom said: Wrong. Jesus did many “secular” things on the Sabbath.
First and foremost, he healed. This was not religious work, nor even the work of the Priests. Healing was to be done on any day but the Sabbath. It was secular.
Luke 13:12 When Jesus saw her, He called her over and said to her, “Woman, you are freed from your sickness.”
Luke 13:13 And He laid His hands on her; and immediately she was made erect again and began glorifying God.
Luke 13:14 But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, “There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day.”
Second, walking, traveling, and eating on the run, were “secular” activities, and so too was telling people to move furniture on the Sabbath or take care of their flocks.
Matt. 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.
Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
John 5:8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.”
John 5:9 Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk. Now it was the Sabbath on that day.
John 5:10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”
John 5:11 But he answered them, “He who made me well was the one who said to me, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk.’”
Taking care of sheep was also a “secular” activity, even as it was a major industry for the Jews.
Jesus makes it clear that such “secular” work is fine on the Sabbath and the Jews agreed, because they wanted to protect their business. But when it came to helping people on the Sabbath, they protested.
Matt. 12:9 Departing from there, He went into their synagogue.
Matt. 12:10 And a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?” — so that they might accuse Him.
Matt. 12:11 And He said to them, “What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out?
Matt. 12:12 “How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
Matt. 12:13 Then He *said to the man, “Stretch out your hand!” He stretched it out, and it was restored to normal, like the other.
Matt. 12:14 But the Pharisees went out and conspired against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.
So both Jesus and the Jews agreed that it was fine to work on the Sabbath to protect the sheep industry. But people were not treated as well as the animals on the Sabbath. Thus making the Sabbath punitive and mean spirited, lacking compassion and common sense.
There are quite a number of “secular” activites approved by Christ on the Sabbath. Enough so that we get the point today:
#1. It is lawful to do good works on the NC Sabbath of Christ
#2. Jesus, the lord of the Sabbath, declares that Gospel mercy trumps OC law, thus all that follow him can work on the Sabbath without guilt.
Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
Matt. 12:7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the (Gospel) Sabbath.”
Bob 2 said: 3. We are urged by the Bible to forsake not the assembly of ourselves (Heb 10:25), but it leaves us to be convinced in our own mind which day. (Romans 14:5)
Tom said: What Day do you think the author of Hebrews was encouraging the Jewish Christians to meet on?
Only the 7th day. This is obvious from the context of this book, which speaks specifically about the 7th day Sabbath, and because it was written to Jewish Christians, by Jewish Christians.
There was no option for anyone in the apostolic church to pick whatever day they wanted for the Sabbath. Sunday was never an option at this early date. Not even in Rome.
No Christian can pick or choose any doctrine, much less the Sabbath of Christ? Based on what? Tradition? A random text? Guesswork?
Those that profess to follow Christ, must follow his doctrine of the Sabbath and all else. There is only one doctrine of the NC Sabbath that is authorized correct and true.
Prior to the Second Coming, those in Laodicea that seek Eternal Life, must repent for their many false and confused views. They must only embrace the genuine Gospel, and the Reformed Sabbath of Christ.
This includes the “wretched” SDA’s, who have embraced the WRONG Gospel, and the WRONG OC, non-working Sabbath of Christ’s enemies. They could not be more blind, wretched, and pitiful if they tried. The Adventists, kike the 1st century Jews, are in great danger for their unbelief.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris for the 7th day, active, Gospel Sabbath
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