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Hubert
Earlier in this thread you said that vegetarianism had an effect on spirituality now you say it cannot be evaluated. So which is it? You appear to be back pedalling on the issue.
I prefer not to comment on EGW but in Hebrews it says God spoke through the prophets in the past but now speaks through the Son. In other words, unless one thinks Jesus failed to reveal God completely , there is no role for latter day prophets.
May one benefit from readingEGW? possibly but one may also benefit from reading George Orwell ,Charles Dickens ,Velikovsky or Karl Marx.
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Bro Sturges- I got that, hence the "belated" :-)
Thanks for your response. It was a general statement about EGW, and not mainly about diet, although that's certainly a part of it. The various and sometimes contradictory statements about clothing, entertainment, music, and the like- the "lifestyle" things.
Agree that it's nigh impossible to evaluate anothers' spirituality, and for that matter, one's own, as you acknowledge- self-deception is a distinct possibility. I CAN, however, evaluate my past position with some distance, and I knew very little of God when I was busy measuring hemlines and listening for the possibility of a beat in music or wondering whether a VHS videocassette would carry with it the demons that inhabit movie theaters.
And your advice on reading the bible for onesself is sound. Reading the Bible through, without any aid from study guides and the like was what started me down my current path toward a very different take on adventism and EGW than what I was brought up with and had when I relied on the proof texts.
Have a blessed Sabbath :-)
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Abe,
There are nuances about the message of the Bible that most people completely miss. It is difficult to even discuss these things except with a person who has taken a number of steps in his experience. I also realize that most people have "taken steps" but not always in the same direction. So for this reason, I find it hard to discuss the effect of vegetarianism on spirituality.
You speak of Jesus Christ having the last word on God's message to men. I completely believe in the message that Jesus brought. However in the book of john he frankly said that there were things he could not tell His disciples at that time, and that He would send the Holy spirit to teach them more.
Paul the apostle explained the teachings of Christ in a more "theological" mode. Was Paul's message unnecessary?
Paul also included the gift of prophecy in his list of spiritual gifts. Doesn't that open up the possibility that God had more that He wanted to tell us?
Joel spoke of more prophecy in the end of time.
The main issue is that we must test the prophets to see if what they say is consistent with what the Bible says.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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"Doesn't that open up the possibility that God had more that He wanted to tell us?
Joel spoke of more prophecy in the end of time."
How is that possibility proved to be truthful? Admittedly, EGW added messages that cannot be found in the Bible, and it shouldn't be necessary to enumerate them. She has made scientific statements that are contradictory to known truths. She has added much on healthful living and while some are good, they are not original but chosen from other writers, and added some of her own. Does any reputable neuroscientist believe that phrenology is appropriate? Or that all dairy products should be eliminated or that two meals a day are ideal? These MAY be appropriate for some, but they have been used as general principles--something that was never mentioned in the Bible. Principles are given in the Bible; she added so many specifics that they have been abused by some.
Last edited by elaine (12-03-10 9:08 pm)
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Yitzak,
I would have hard time to imagine you "measuring hemlines." How did you get such a job? I might have a hard time thinking about God too, if I had that job!
"I CAN, however, evaluate my past position with some distance, and I knew very little of God when I was busy measuring hemlines"
Over the years I have learned some things -- not near enough, though! How can you say that your journey through life was from certain books and experiences, and not from just maturing and mellowing?
My understanding of inspiration of prophets is that God gives the message, and the prophet then must write it out in his/her own words. This opens the door to reading the prophet for the general message of what he/she has to say. I believe it is a mistake to hold a prophet to absolute certainty in everything that they say. Remember, they too are products of their times. However, there are a number of specific prophecies from Ellen White that have been fulfilled, and many that are in the process of being fulfilled. Her books were to open the eyes of God's people, and to help them to be prepared for the second coming of Christ.
About dairy products ...... With my family I took a walk around our home in Delhi, CA one winter day. We passed a small dairy. The cows were milling around in the feed lot. The mud/manure was knee deep at least and the udders were dragging through it. Now, I know that udders are washed before milking, and I also know that dairies in California have a LOT of cows, and how thorough that washing is is open to question.
Anyway, we drink soy milk ever since, and find now that drinking cows milk has a distinct aroma of "being near a cow!"
Just for what it is worth.......
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Hubert
Given the enormous amount of stuff EGW wrote/copied the odds are that she might have hit the mark a few times but so what so have other wannabe prophets.
Yes Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to lead His followers into all truth , but He did not say that that truth would be filtered through others be they priests popes or prophets.
Peter said that Penecost was the fulfillment of Joel and Jesus said that John the Baptist was the fulfilment of Malachi.Since Jesus ascended mankind has been/is living in the "last days" whether it is the first, tenth, or fiftieth century.
One should allow the Holy Spirit to speak directly to ones mind and heart.With Jesus we can come directly to the throne of grace there is no place for psuedo prophets ,priests ,popes shamans or grurus.
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Hub, who supports Traditional Adventism said: Looks like the same old song: IJ, Tithe, and a Quixotic defense of Desmond Ford. Why are the tSDAs absent from this forum? Simply because it become tiresome to go over the same ground over and over again.
Tom said: Adventist Reform is hardly “the same old song.” Rather, it is a very different tune from the many sour and wrong notes of Old Covenant Adventism and their many critics.
Matt. 13:52 And Jesus said to them, “Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings out of his treasure things new and old.”
In fact, Adventist Reform is so different, correct, and comprehensive, that some, like you, are having a hard time processing this discussion. So instead of trying to understand truth, the SDA Pharisees cover their eyes so as not to see what they don’t like. The Jews did the same thing and look how they ended up? It is never good to run from truth, pretending to not understand.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
The TSDA’s have had every opportunity to make their case and prove their doctrines under cross-examination. But they have failed, over and over and over for all to see. In fact, their many trained apologists, pastors, and scholars dare not venture into this discussion for fear of being exposed as false Sheppard’s and wolves. So they stay away in order to avoid being embarrassed and outed as incompetent religious frauds and false prophets.
While you claim AR is dealing with the “same old ground,” that is hardly the case. In fact, we are pushing Sabbath Reform forward, not trying to destroy this great pillar of the 3rd Angels Message as is so typical of their many critics. AR is trying to preserve what is true so that the Advent Movement can go forward within their unique Apocalyptic to do their Gospel duty.
While the Denomination has obviously been rocked by Glacier View and Walter Rea, the great Shaking that is predicted for the SDA church is still in the future. It will take place not because of the IJ or even Ellen White. Rather, it is the core doctrine of the Sabbath that will cause all to reconsider ever thing they ever thought they knew about the law and the Gospel, as well as eschatology and church history.
The Reformed, New Covenant Sabbath of Christ is an amazing, new doctrine for the SDA’s as well as all other denominations. It is a paradigm shifting teaching from Christ that is different from what everyone expected; forcing the SDA’s to re-examine this special doctrine, which defines them.
So Hub let’s not pretend that there are no new questions or issues being raised, much less that the SDA’s are tired of going over the same ground. The Gospel Sabbath is a very new doctrine that challenges and condemns the present understanding about SDA theology, including how they are organized and managed.
Once understood, the Gospel Sabbath will condemn OC Adventism, shifting the paradigm forward to NC Adventism. Just as the 1st century preaching of the Gospel shifted OC Judaism to an improved NC model, so too with the SDA’s. The Gospel Sabbath will be instrumental in the development and proclamation of NC Adventism, which will be the fulfillment of Rev 18, known by the SDA’s as the 4th Angels Message.
Thanks to the emergence of the Gospel Sabbath, the Old Covenant Sabbath of the SDA’s, along with the fraud of tithe and a hierarchy, has been exposed as false doctrine for all to see. The TSDA’s are stunned at such a development, which overturns their obviously incorrect version of the Sabbath, church organization, and most everything else.
There is nowhere for this Sabbatarian church to hide. They have been caught red handed with the OC Sabbath of the Gospel hating Jews. So now what are they going to do?
Answer: Run away and try to ignore the Gospel, pretending they are correct.
The apologists stay away from this discussion because they cannot refute the clear teaching of Jesus about the Gospel or the Sabbath. These wolves stay away because they are unable to defend their false views about tithe and the IJ, as well as many other things. If that were not the case, they would be swarming this site like angry hornets, publishing one attack after another.
Of course this public discussion remains wide open for any that dare try to defend the OC Sabbath, tithe or the IJ. But after so many years, it is obvious that the SDA’s are shooting blanks. They have lost the debate. Traditional, OC Adventism is dead, and so too anyone foolish enough to embrace what is so wrong and clearly against the Gospel.
So Hub, why pretend? The SDA’s need Gospel Reform in the worst way, or they will continue their free fall into irrelevance, corruption, and error. It’s just this simple.
Hub said: Adventists probably teach a more detailed understanding of Bible teachings than most other churches.
Tom said: Don’t flatter yourself. Many religions and denominations are full of detailed doctrines, with legions of tradition and double talk. So what?
Moreover, what is the point of having so many incorrect and false “details” about the Gospel Story and church history? The SDA’s have so many errors, like tithe, the IJ, and the OC Sabbath, that they can no longer defend their confusion in public. Their predicament cannot be resolved by a simple denial from the deluded.
If the Adventist leaders cannot refute the many points made by AR, (and they obviously cannot), then it means Traditional Adventism has fallen. Those that fight against this necessary paradigm shift from OC Adventism to the NC variety advocated by AR, are fighting against God and his Gospel. They are blocking the church from embracing the final Gospel message that completes the work of the Advent Movement. They are enemies of the Apostles, Reformers, and the Pioneers, even though they claim to support them all.
Today, every religion is full of many “details” and traditions, legions of false doctrine, not just the SDA’s. While the SDA’s were supposed to help guide the rest of Laodicea into all Gospel truth at the end of time, they too have become wretched, naked, and blind like everyone else. This is why they must repent, not pretend they have no errors.
It is futile, and delusional, to pretend that the SDA’s have 100% correct doctrine. They are closer to 10%, if that. They do not understand the Bible or the Gospel Story correctly. They don’t even understand the Sabbath correctly, much less their own church history. Nor do they want to. This is their real problem. They have fallen in love with their own propaganda and tradition, (which has made them rich), and thus they have fallen from grace. They are phony, “wretched,” Christians, great liars that care more about money than salvation.
Woe to all SDA’s that refuse to repent and embrace Gospel reform. They are lost.
Hub said: I would refer back to Matthew 24 where Jesus said that His followers must beware of being deceived (3 times).
Tom said: Jesus warns all to beware of anyone that acts like the double-talking, Gospel hating Jews. This would include the SDA’s, who have one doctrine after another very wrong. Starting with the Sabbath!
Anyone in the church that pays tithe, practices Old Covenant Sabbath keeping, and teaches there is an examination of our sanctification in heaven to see if we are “safe to save,” is greatly deceived. The SDA’s today are great deceivers for all to see, and you are not helping their case with your trite attempts to justify their confusion.
Hub said: We do have definite doctrines:
Tom said: The problem is not with a lack of “definite doctrines;” but that most of their doctrines are very wrong.
Hub said: Creation in 6 days, the Law of God, Grace, Jesus' substitutionary sacrifice on Calvary, the priesthood of Christ in Heaven, the Second Coming, the messages of the three angels, and of the fourth angel -- to mention a few.
Tom said: We can all read the 28 Fundamentals, so no one is saying that the SDA’s do not have many specific doctrines. The problem is that most everything they teach is against the Gospel and wrong. The quantity of doctrine is not the point; quality of doctrine is what matters.
The age of the earth in not a true Gospel doctrine. Rather, it is a useless diversion not taught in the NT. The earth is much older than 6,000 years and it is very foolish to try and pretend otherwise. Neither Jesus nor his apostles ever made the age of the earth a point of doctrine and thus it is wrong to try and do so today.
The Law is also very misunderstood by SDA’s, especially how they view the Moral law within the New Covenant. This is why they are so wrong about the Sabbath. In fact, the book of Galatians, which is about the Judaizers in the church, is beyond their comprehension. They refuse to read it honestly, understanding that it speaks to their errors. Nor do they want to explain how this book destroyed their Battle Creek Empire after the failed 1888 debates.
As for “grace,” the SDA’s have never understood salvation correctly. So why are you pretending otherwise? In fact, the SDA’s are more famous for their great debates and schisms, not for their confused Gospel, which is the source for all this debate and division.
As for eschatology, they have this all wrong as well. Sunday laws are not going to start the Time of Trouble as they claim. The NT refutes this OC, SDA view, which is childish and absurd.
The SDA’s also misunderstand their own history of the Three Angels Messages, even as they fail to articulate the true pillars that define the 1st Angels Message honestly and correctly. On and on the list of errors goes…
So the SDA’s have very little correct. The State of the Dead is about all, as well as the fact that only the 7th day can be the Sabbath. Beyond these two points, they have most everything else very wrong. Which is why heaven is screaming for them to repent.
Hub said: If a person is confused on these doctrines, he might be deceived.
Tom said: Ha! The SDA’s are very confused and wrong about most every point. And their incompetent and corrupt leaders have all run away from the public discussion of Adventist Reform, which further underscores this obvious conclusion. Only the guilty run and hide.
Why have they run away? Because they know they are wrong and that they cannot defend their many errors. Nor do they want others to realize this fact. So they run and hide from the issues, in direct violation of the Gospel.
There is no Eternal Life for any that follows the many errors of the SDA’s. They have bad attitudes and worse doctrines, and now we also know they are great cowards and blowhards for all to see. Pitiful.
Hub said: Many of the other churches are confused on these points.
Tom said: True. Every church in Laodicea has a false Gospel and an incorrect doctrine of the Sabbath, -INCLUDING the SDA’s. But this excuse that others are also wrong is a pointless defense. This is why all must repent,-starting with the SDA’s.
But yet, the SDA’s claim they have no error, and thus they do not need to repent. Such delusion is absurd,- and fatal.
Hub said: About vegetarianism and EGW: These are not required for church membership. But they are both a help for one's spirituality.
Tom said: Who cares about “church membership”? There is no salvation based on any denominational membership.
Only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life will receive Eternal Life. The church books are totally irrelevant. Which is why Jesus teaches that “many” who have their names on the church books will not be saved. This will include “many” SDA’s just like you Hub.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you;
As for Ellen White, the SDA’s have misrepresented and abused this co-founder, and thus they need to repent and correct the record. A false view of Ellen White will not help anyone to become more spiritual, nor will eating certain foods.
Today, the SDA Church stands condemned for all to see. They do not follow the Gospel of Christ, or his Sabbath, nor will they repent of their many errors. They have embraced the Old Covenant theology of the Judaizers, becoming great legalists, just like the Christian Pharisees that caused so much trouble in the early church.
Let no one be fooled by the toxic SDA’s; every leader and pastor is guilty of promoting a dishonest and “distorted” Gospel, full of false doctrine, which features Old Covenant tithe paying and incorrect Sabbath keeping, and many other false doctrines. Unless they confess and repent, they are doomed.
Just like the Pharisees and the Galatian Judaizers, the SDA’s teach that the church is under the law and so too every individual, which is why they teach an Investigative Judgment in heaven, whereby all that profess Christ must prove their Sanctification and obedience to the Moral law, -especially to the OC Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, which is their great obsession.
Such a toxic view of the Gospel and the Sabbath are disgusting and very wrong.
Let all “watch out and beware” of the many errors of the SDA’s. No one should pay them “tithe” or embrace their false view of the Sabbath or eschatology. They are very dishonest and corrupt, which is why they are self-destructing for all to see. Such a meltdown is meant to wake them up, but like the Jews, they are very hard headed and refuse to repent. So be it.
This may be the end of the line for the SDA’s. Others must do what they have failed to do. The Tribulation is near, and thus the last church must become prepared for what is about to take place.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom
Do you realize just how silly this all is.The tribulation for God's people is already past it never applied to the Gentiles.
You call for reform but you are stuck with much of the SDA mixed up doctrine. The Sabbath old or revised was not given to the Gentile church either and while the keeping of the Sabbath is not forbidden it is not a requirement for anyone who is not a Jew.
You are not going to change the official SDA denomination regardless of what you say so why get your knickers in a knot.The extreme passionate language yu employ in your posts reflect badly on your spitituality.
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Bro Sturges. Thanks for the reply. Of course, life is a mixture of what we bring to it and what it brings to us, and my current journey is a mixture of that.
However, my miserable state of being for a great deal of my early life was, in fact, largely due to the influence of EGW's writings, filtered through my church and my parents. Now, granted, others had different experiences, and I acknkowledge that. But her selected writings, and the way that many peeople in church revere her every random thought, not to mention latching onto every thing she wrote that in any way ressembles a rule, on every trivial aspect of life imaginable. That was difficult for me.
I am not saying she was a horrible person or evil or anything like that. I am just saying that my expeirence, and what I see in the church, is that her influence on the modern church has not been positive.
As for the bible and Jesus promising the Holy Spirit. My understanding was always that that passage was referring to the holy spirit speaking to MANY of God's people, not just one. And my reading of the Pauline passages about prophecy suggests that it is something other than an addition to the canon, rather, an activity that many members of the church would participate in. Again, not just one.
So, I don't see very much support for the proposition that the Holy Spirit, after Jesus left, would manifest in exactly one person prophesying, that everything she said and thought about everything would be granted some sort of supplementary canon status, and that the prophesy of that one person would be applicable from the time it was uttered until the end of time.
I have to say, I admire your willingness to be here, given some of the things that are said, and the tone. I try to work on my own tone, but I don't always succeed.
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Question about the Sabbath:
Jasmine said: Tom, thank you for your thorough answer. I didn't know that the SDA's have a false view of Sabbath.
Are they all like that? Is "Every leader and pastor guilty of promoting a dishonest and “distorted” Gospel, full of false doctrine, which features Old Covenant tithe paying and Sabbath keeping, and many other false doctrines?"
I am interested in knowing more about your views on these 2 topics if you would.
When I asked my question, I was thinking more about a pastor that was recently in the church I used to attend and a lay elder who is still there. She is the church's head gossip and seems to control much of what happens there. When I became the focus of her "attention" I dropped out.
I miss the worship experience and the fellowship with some of the members but I can't make myself return.
I had not considered the other issues you raise.
Thank you.
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Tom said: Today, the SDA’s are so Old Covenant minded that they resemble the legalistic, tithe paying, Sabbath keeping Pharisees in the Gospel Story.
Not only do they have the same incorrect, “no work” view of the 7th day Sabbath as the Pharisees, they also repudiate the Gospel, teaching that keeping that the 10 Commandment law is required for salvation, especially the 4th Commandment.
The SDA’s are great Judaizers, just like the Galatians that cause so much trouble in the apostolic church.
The SDA’s, like so many others in Laodicea, are not paying attention to Jesus’ Words or to his NC, reformed Sabbath that is so closely associated with his Gospel ministry. They are following a false Christ and a distorted Gospel.
Here is a link to Doug Batchlors web site.
This confused Jew thinks that the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath is truth for the church. Thus he confidently calls his site “Sabbath Truth.Com,” even as he pretends that he is supporting God and following the Bible and the Gospel. But he is very wrong. He is a modern day Pharisee and Judaizer for all to see. He is an enemy of the Gospel, just like his ancestors.
There should be no doubt that the SDA, Old Covenant view of the Sabbath, is just like the Pharisees that refuted Christ and his Gospel; which means the SDA’s they have the WRONG Gospel and the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath.
Jesus does not teach that it is a sin to work on the Sabbath. But the SDA’s do. They make a huge deal out of the 4th commandment, claiming it sinful to work on the 7th day, which proves that they are not paying attention to Jesus.
The SDA’s have not only embraced the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Pharisees, thinking this is the greatest of all church doctrines, they are not even aware that there is a different, Gospel Sabbath for the church. They are blind men for all to see.
I repeat: the SDA’s, as well as the many Jews that have joined them, like Goldstein, Batchlor, and Wohlberg, HAVE THE WRONG DOCTRINE OF THE SABBATH as well as a false Gospel and many other errors.
With so many Old Covenant minded Jews in charge of their propaganda machine, how can the Gospel survive within Adventism? No wonder the SDA’s are so blind about the Gospel. They have let the legalistic Jews infiltrate their denomination and do what Jews do best; repudiate the Gospel. How sad.
These wretched Pharisees are theologically incompetent, as well as arrogant, stubborn, and dishonest. They refuse to admit their many doctrinal errors and repent, even going so far a to claim they do not have any errors. This is typical of the Jews and is one reason why the SDA’s are self-destructing in front of the world. This is why millions have left these Judaizers and why they cannot grow in the civilized world. They are full of much Jewish error and Gentile double-talk.
See links about SDA Jewish leaders:
http://www.whitehorsemedia.com/
http://www.christianbookpreviews.com/ch … 0768429609
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_Goldstein
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1166507859
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/288.html
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1154462379
Let all understand that while these Jewish, SDA apologists write books and market all manner of propaganda for sale. Like the Pharisees, they love money and dream of building a religious empire for their benefit, but all the while, they refuse to have any public debates with Dr. Ford or Tom Norris. They are fearful of being exposed as false prophets and charlatans, which is what they are.
These wolves know that their false Gospel will not hold up against genuine scholars and honest Gospel researchers. So they run from any discussion that will prove them wrong, which is a violation of the Gospel. Sad.
Let all beware the SDA’s.
Listen to the leading SDA apologist Doug Batchlor, of Amazing Facts, promote the Sabbath. Like the confused Pharisees, this man is actually a real Jew. He joined the SDA’s because of their emphasis on the Jewish law and the 7th day Sabbath. Like his legalistic ancestors, he too thinks he is helping God by protecting the Sabbath of the 4th commandment and by keeping it holy as directed by Moses in the Old Covenant.
See: http://www.sabbathtruth.com/
Like Saul, who was zealous for the God, but blind to the Gospel, this SDA Jew no more accepts the Gospel than did his Jewish ancestors that killed Christ. The man is a true Pharisee and a typical Jewish Judaizer, and so too are all the SDA’s. Which is why they all need to repent and correct their many false doctrines or they are doomed.
The SDA’s have spent many millions of dollars promoting their doctrine of the Sabbath, which is part of an eschatological narrative that is also obsessed with Sunday laws and the end of the world. They are great defenders of the Sabbath of Moses, all the while ignorant of the true Gospel Sabbath as taught by Christ.
Everyone needs to understand that fancy graphics and stagecraft, complete with paid apologists and a media empire do not equal truth. Graphic designers are not theologians, nor are those paid to promote propaganda honest seekers for Gospel truth. They are paid employees of a dishonest religious system that forces all to believe a certain way or be terminated.
There is no freedom for SDA’s to study and discuss the Word, much less to search for truth and correct false doctrine. Anyone in the SDA church that speaks about Gospel Reform will be terminated, exiled, and discarded.
None are free to challenge or question the hierarchy or their doctrines, much less the Sabbath or Tithe. So there can be no dissent, question, or serious Bible study within Adventism, even though it operates a number of colleges and universities.
Those scholars that do not tell the leaders what they want to hear, like Dr. Ford, were exiled back in 1980, thus mocking freedom of research and speech, as well as the Gospel. The SDA’s operate like a totalitarian enterprise, were propaganda, censorship, and force are normative. No one should support their religious farce any longer unless they repent and reform.
Any pastors that submit to such anti-Gospel, anti-democratic, rules and doctrines are false Sheppard’s, thieves and robbers. No one should pay any attention to these worthless hired hands that are only in it for the money. It’s all about the money in the SDA church. Truth has nothing do to with anything anymore.
Let all beware the SDA’s with their many diversions and double-talk. It is their WORDS and doctrines that must be compared to the Words of Christ to see if their doctrines are true. Nothing else matters. For those that seek Eternal Life, only the teachings of Christ and his apostles has any value.
The SDA’s speak and think just like the Pharisees. Listen to what they say about the reason for the Sabbath. They are promoting and defending the Old Covenant Sabbath of Moses, not the NC version that Jesus teaches in all 4 Gospels.
The SDA’s say: The Reason for the Sabbath
God designed the Sabbath for two main reasons: to commemorate creation and as a sign of our salvation. “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy” (Exodus 20:11). “I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the Lord made them holy” (Ezekiel 20:12).
The Hebrew word Sabbath literally means, “to cease.” Just as God rested from His creation work, we are to rest from our day-to-day occupations and refocus on what’s really important. It’s a day to push the reset button.
Taking a Sabbath rest is an act of faith; it’s a reminder that no matter what we do, God is in control. When we cease from pursuing our material goals for one day each week, we’re saying, “God, I trust You to maintain control while I spend this day focusing on You. I trust You to provide for my needs seven days a week even if I only work for six of them. Regardless of how much money I could earn today, or how much remains on my to-do list from last week, today I’m going to rest my mind and body and bask in Your presence.”
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/free-resour … rship.aspx
The SDA’s are great legalists
Law, law, law, is all the SDA’s are about. They do not know the Gospel. Their claim that the Old Covenant Sabbath is a “sign” of our Gospel Salvation is absurd and impossible. Jesus does not promote the Sabbath of Moses for the church, so how can what was refuted become a sign of the Gospel? This is absurd.
While the SDA’s claim that obedience to the 4th Commandment is “an act of faith,” it is really something very different. It is an act of Gospel disbelief, rebellion, and legalism. It is an act that refutes the clear Teachings of Jesus about the New Covenant Sabbath and the Law.
Thus the SDA’s mock the Gospel every week, misunderstanding the differences between the Two Covenants and denying the fundamental Protestant doctrine of the Priesthood of All Believers. This is why they Tithe every Sabbath, and try to obey the law. They are great Judaizers that stand condemned before heaven and earth.
The SDA’s teach a false Christ and a false Sabbath, all mediated by a minority of religious elites that receive tithe and govern the church. Such an OC model proves them very wrong and confused.
The SDA’s are very much like the Pharisees that caused so much trouble in the early church. They run from the book of Galatians, which destroyed their Battle Creek Empire, and that still condemns them today. They don’t want to understand the NT, and they have succeeded.
The Gospel Sabbath
Jesus teaches that all that follow him by faith, are priests; EXEMPT from the rules against work on the Sabbath and free from having to pay tithe to any religious elite.
Why is there no tithe? Because there is no separate priesthood in the NC. So there can be no tithe in such a NC model. It is impossible, which is why the apostolic church “shared” their resources, never practicing tithing, as the SDA’s dishonestly teach.
Moreover, because all are priests of Christ in the NC, there is no sin or guilt associated with the active Sabbath of Christ. All that embrace Christ are free from the reach of the law, free to do whatever good activity they feel is necessary on the Sabbath without condemnation or guilt. It is a hard concept for the Jews and the SDA’s to embrace, but unless it is understood, one does not understand the Gospel.
It is critical to comprehend the NC Sabbath. Which is very different from the OC version. The SDA’s, and the Jews that have joined them, as well as all others in every denomination that teach the Sunday Sabbath, have made a huge mistake that must be exposed and corrected, even as all must repent, as directed by Christ in the Laodicean Message. When the correct Gospel is preached, so too the correct Gospel Sabbath.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.
Who Changed the Sabbath?
If you ask the SDA’s “who changed the Sabbath?” They will quickly answer that it was the Roman Catholic Church. They changed it from the 7th day to the 1st day. Blah, blah, blah…: They know of no other changes to the Sabbath.
In fact, to be clear, the SDA’s teach that Jesus made no change to the Sabbath. Thus they say:
“No Change Documented in the Bible.”
“In both Old and New Testament there is not a shadow of variation in the doctrine of the Sabbath.”
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath-his … anged.aspx
But the SDA’s are obviously very wrong.
Jesus DID CHANGE THE SABBATH. This change is documented in all 4 Gospels. In fact, this change was so controversial that the Pharisees rejected Jesus Gospel Sabbath, claiming it was wrong and against the law. This is why they plotted to kill him.
So the Gospel facts prove the SDA Sabbath position dead wrong! Jesus did make some serious and dramatic revisions to the Sabbath. How could the SDA’s fail to see this? Don’t they read the Gospels? Apparently not.
The SDA’s say:
Was the Sabbath changed from the seventh day of the week to the first day? Well, yes and no. Let’s deal with the “no” first.
God, “with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning” (James 1:17), does not change (Malachi 3:6). The Israelites received two laws from Moses: the law of Moses, that of ordinances and ceremonies; and the Law of God, embodied in the Ten Commandments, which is an expression of God’s character.
If God does not change, neither will His Law. “My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips” (Psalm 89:34). “I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it” (Ecclesiastes 3:14). “The works of his hands are faithful and just; all his precepts are trustworthy. They are steadfast for ever and ever, done in faithfulness and uprightness” (Psalm 111:7, 8).
God gave His Law to the Israelites at Mt. Sinai. Amid thunder and lightning, a thick cloud covered the mountain, and a trumpet blasted. Smoke billowed up as from a furnace and the whole mountain shook as the trumpet grew louder and louder. Moses led the Israelites out of their camp to meet with God, and every one of them trembled. Then God spoke (Exodus 19:16-19, 20:1).
If this Law were to be changed, it would be reasonable to expect God Himself to announce it, and give reasons for its alteration, amid the same amount of ceremony. Yet there is no indication in Scripture of such an announcement.
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/freeresourc … hange.aspx
How blind are the SDA’s to think that the Gospels do not record Jesus Sabbath Reforms? While he did not remove the Sabbath doctrine, he reformed the rules and gave an EXEMPTION from the prohibition against work to all that follow him. How could such a major change in the Sabbath go unnoticed by the SDA’s? The Jews understood what Jesus was saying, and they rejected his Sabbath changes. But the SDA’s just pretend there were no changes associated with the 4th commandment. They are great Sabbatarian fools.
SDA’s Great Legalists
The SDA’s are such great legalists, that they have lost their sense of objectivity when it comes to the Law. They have made so much of the law; that they cannot imagine that God would ever change it, or that he could ever change it. They act like the law is greater than God himself, as if he were bound by it, like an OC Jew.
They fail to understand that the Gospel is greater than law, and thus there can be changes to the law, which is exactly what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath.
So while there was thunder and lightening and smoke when the Sabbath was proclaimed on Sinai, the Sabbath teachings of Jesus trumps the law, even as the Gospel is greater than the law.
Jesus Reformed Sabbath is an object lesson for all to understand. His NC Sabbath is a living doctrine, which proves the Gospel greater than law. There is no guilt or condemnation from the law for those that have embraced Christ and his Gospel Sabbath. Thus every week the church is to be reminded of the Gospel, and its’ superiority over law.
All Laodiceans have an incorrect view of the law, Gospel, and the Sabbath. So it’s not just the SDA’s that are wrong. But they have less of an excuse because they were supposed to be the Sabbath experts. They were supposed to understand the 7th day Gospel Sabbath better than all others. But it turns out they don’t know the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath. Which is why they must repent.
The SDA’s are Old Covenant Minded
The SDA’s think just like the 1st century Jews that refuted Christ and his Gospel Sabbath. They love to defend the OC Sabbath of Moses and the Jews, even as they love to bash the Sunday Sabbath.
Listen to the SDA’s defend the OC Sabbath:
The SDA’s say: What About the New Testament?
In the New Testament, the seventh day of the week is called the Sabbath; it is mentioned 58 times. The first day of the week is mentioned eight times. It is simply called the first day of the week, and it is always differentiated from the Sabbath. This in itself is evidence for the continued validity of the seventh-day Sabbath.
The gospel writers record Jesus and the apostles going to the synagogue on Sabbath as their “custom” (Luke 4:16 ). Jesus said, “I have kept My Father’s commandments” (John 15:10). The women who went to anoint His body after his death “rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment” (Luke 23:56).
Nearly all of the incidents reported of the apostles’ preaching occurred on the seventh-day Sabbath. Of all the accusations the Jews made against the apostles, never once did they accuse the apostles of breaking the Sabbath.
Some teach that after Christ’s death and resurrection, the Old Testament law was done away with and a new covenant took its place.
But Jesus Himself said, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled” (Matthew 5:17, 18).
The law of Moses, which foreshadowed Christ’s sacrifice, was indeed made irrelevant, but Paul maintains that the Law of God is to be kept, though we now be under grace. “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid; yea, we establish the law” (Romans 3:31).
SabbathTruth.com
------------------------------
Over and over the SDA’s try and prove that Jesus did not change the OC Sabbath. But over and over they are wrong. They do not understand the Gospel or the NC. Their obsession with the law and with Sunday, has confused and disoriented them.
The SDA’s WRONG About the NC Sabbath
While the SDA’s get credit for correctly teaching that Sunday is a false doctrine, and that only the 7th day can be the Sabbath or Lord’s Day, they have a made a huge error to think that the Old Covenant Sabbath can be doctrine for the New Covenant Church. Or that this is what Jesus teaches in the Gospels.
There is an OC Sabbath, and a very different, NC version. The SDA’s have embraced the former when the latter is what they should have grasped. They fail to understand that Jesus CHANGED the Sabbath, and for this, and for many other errors, like the IJ and Tithe, they must repent.
Let all beware the dishonest and double-talking SDA’s. They are the modern day Pharisees. They are the children of the Judaizers in the apostolic church. Paul condemns them, and so too must all that follow the true Christ.
Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
In their haste to defend the law and mimic the Pharisees, the SDA’s have overlooked the major change that Jesus teaches about the Sabbath in all four Gospels.
While Jesus did not change the 7th day Sabbath to Sunday, as the SDA’s correctly assert; he DID change it from the non-working punitive Sabbath, to one where all are free to work on the Sabbath without sin or guilt.
Thus Jesus, who is greater than the law, CHANGED the Sabbath to an active doctrine that is very different from the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Jews and SDA’s. The NC Sabbath is based on Jesus Lordship and Gospel authority, as well as the doctrine of the Priesthood of all believers. He is the Lord, of the NC Sabbath, NOT the OC Sabbath of Moses, where the penalty for work on the Sabbath was DEATH. The NC Sabbath encourages good works on the Reformed Sabbath, even as the outcome is Eternal Life for those that have embraced the NC Gospel.
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”----
So the truth about the Sabbath is very different from what the SDA’s teach. While they have the right day, (so too did the Jews), it is still the wrong doctrine. The SDA’s are so blind that they don’t even know that Jesus REFORMED the Sabbath, much less that there is a Gospel Sabbath for the church. All they know is the law based Sabbath of the Old Covenant Pharisees. Which is why so many Jews join them to help promote their continued rebellion against the Gospel.
Shame on these silly Judaizers! Shame on Doug Batchlor, Clifford Goldstein, and all such Jews who promote the OC Sabbath. Even after all these years, the Jews are still attacking the Gospel and causing problems. This is what they do best, and time has not changed this great defect in their character. What a pity that the SDA Gentiles have allowed these confused and rebellious Jews to become leaders.
But the SDA’s have no one else but themselves to blame. They are so confused about the Gospel that they allowed the Jews to come in and take over their legalistic theology and promote it to the world. How disgusting. Truly the blind are leading the blind, which is why the SDA’s are in such deep trouble.
Matt. 15:12 Then the disciples *came and *said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?”
Matt. 15:13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.
Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
The SDA’s make all kinds of claim for their OC Sabbath. They also claim that their Sabbath is a “repudiation of evoloution,” but in fact, it is a repudiation of Christ and his Gospel. Their Sabbath is a fraud; it dishonors Christ, the co-Creator of the world, even as it refutes God, who taught Jesus this active, NC Sabbath doctrine.
Listen again to the SDA’s about the Sabbath:
The observance of the seventh day is a repudiation of evolution. It would be absurd for a man who does not believe in the atonement to observe the Lord's Supper. It would be just as absurd for a man to observe the Sabbath who denies that God created the world.
The observance of the Sabbath sets forth the observer's belief that God did create the world according to the claims stated in the Sabbath commandment. The importance of the observance of the Sabbath is more clearly and forcibly understood as we continue to search the Scriptures and find that the fact of God's ability to create, as opposed to the inability of other gods to create, is the distinguishing attribute of the true God.
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/freeresourc … o-god.aspx
While there is some truth to what they say, without the Gospel, and the correct Gospel Sabbath, even truth becomes worthless and wrong. The OC Sabbath is a sign of legalism. Those that refute Jesus Gospel Sabbath have no right to sign the praises of the OC Sabbath, as if they were OC Jews. This is madness.
SDA’s Wrong
On point after point, the SDA’s are wrong about the Sabbath and the Gospel. Those who embrace the Gospel will not be fooled by those that do not. They will read the Word and understand the correct, 7th day Sabbath as taught by Christ. It is not to be kept as the Jews or the SDA’s teach. Thus the SDA’s need to repent for their false Sabbath, not pretend they are fully correct and without error.
The SDA’s again teach that the 4th commandment is unchanged in the New Covenant. They say:
“We keep the Sabbath because it is one of the precepts of the eternal, unchangeable moral law of God, which Paul declares to be "holy, and just, and good" (Romans 7:12); but we do not practice circumcision, because it was one of the national rites of the Jews and part of the ceremonial law which was nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14).”
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/faq/argumen … -week.aspx
But the SDA’s are wrong. They have failed to read the NT correctly. They misunderstand the difference between the Two Covenants and ignore the fact that Jesus teaches a very different, REFORMED Sabbath for the church.
In fact, while the SDA’s pretend they follow Jesus and his Gospel, they do no such thing, as evidenced by their OC view of the Sabbath, tithe, and food laws, which mirrors the Pharisees, not the Gospel teaching of Jesus.
Shame on the SDA’s! They are so OC minded that they do not understand the correct doctrine of the Gospel or the Sabbath. Which is also why they teach tithing, Jewish food laws, and many other false doctrines, like the IJ and the Moslem doctrine of “abstinence.”
Let all beware the double-talking, SDA Judaizers, with their endless propaganda and legions of false doctrines. These arrogant and false Sheppard’s, that demand tithe and offering from all, are not to be trusted, obeyed, or supported. They are enemies of the Gospel, just like the Pharisees in the Gospel Story.
Matt. 13:15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’
Matt. 13:16 “But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.
Tom Norris for All Experts. Com & Adventist Reform
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A PERSONAL LETTER FOR TOM NORRIS
Dear tom,
This is not a question but just to thank you.
As you I am a 3rd generation SDA, my husband came into the church whilst we were dating. Our children were dedicated in the church.
About 5 years ago I met a youth Baptist Pastor, we started a music ministry since then he and his family have left the island to work in New Zealand. It was he who introduced me to the doctrines of grace! And after careful bible study, much prayer and research on our own, my husband and I both came to the conclusion that we could not safely endorse some of the beliefs of the church without injuring our own spiritual health.
We were shocked by what we discovered!!!
Your piece on Ellen White was spot on, could not have said it better and I have forwarded this to the very conservative members of our family.
The road has been hard, heartbreaking, and lonely, but oh the joy of truly knowing Christ and our Father.
We know things now that have never been taught to us and we have finally found freedom in Christ.
There are several things that we discovered such as Sabbath keeping for us as Gentile believers in the face of the New Testament, unclean meats, tithing etc etc.
So many of our brothers and sisters lay trapped in a dead religion devoid of Christ, when we tell our family and friends that we look now to Christ and the cross they appear nervous and unmoved.
We have fought like crazy and many have fought us back. We have stopped attending the church BUT we have a weekly bible study and prayer meeting at the home of another dear brother and sister who are against many practices of the church.
Bro Arnold has a special calling and has already told the pastor off and given a sermon on the fact that the church sits in apostasy!
The pastor is so weak that it took my husband to deal with the elder in the church who had been sexually harassing the women and young girls in the church for years!
His family resented us and we were made to feel like criminals all because the leadership is under a spell of legalism and cold formalism.
Would you consider visiting St. Helena Island?
We are on route only by a ship/we have no airport. We have been praying for someone to come visit us, could it be you?
I hope that you will be able to contact us personally.
With love and every blessing in Christ,
Tammy Williams
PHONE CONTACT - 00290 4819
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Greetings Tammy;
Thank you for your kind letter. You are not the first to discover that the SDA leaders have been very dishonest about the Gospel and church history. Many millions of SDA’s have been shocked to learn that much of what the Denomination has taught is not historically accurate or theologically true. Traditional Adventism is full of myth and false doctrine.
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=233
In fact, many things about Ellen White, including her views about the law and the Gospel, hermeneutics, the Sabbath, as well as tithe, abstinence, and even the Investigative Judgment have been grossly misrepresented by the White Estate. The size, duration, and scope of this massive fraud is stunning -- and criminal.
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=225
In other words, most everything that modern SDA’s have been taught to believe about the Advent Movement and the Three Angels Messages is not true or correct. Traditional Adventism does not reflect the actual views of Ellen White or the Pioneers, much less Jesus and the apostles. Thus the Advent people have been greatly misled and deceived by their leaders, even as Ellen White’s views have been deliberately suppressed and misstated by the White Estate.
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=227
At this point, the SDA church has been greatly confused and angered by their incompetent and dishonest leaders. The Advent Movement is in shambles, and things are only getting worse. Without serious repentance and Gospel Reform, the Denomination is doomed to continue its’ free fall into irrelevance, corruption, and legalism.
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=234
So you are not alone. Over the past 30 years, many millions have left the church, starting with the exile of Dr. Ford at Glacier View in 1980. Since that time, even more information has become available that proves the leadership is heading in the wrong direction.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ndance.htm
Today, there can be no doubt that the SDA church has fallen from grace. They are great Judaizers that have rejected the Protestant Gospel. They refuse to follow the historic fundamentals of the Advent Movement, as they claim. Nor do they allow for open or honest Bible study within the church.
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Moreover, the leaders refuse to admit that they have any false doctrines; much less that they should repent. However, such a position is absurd and explains why they are self-destructing for all to see. The SDA church is full of false doctrines, including their Old Covenant view of the Sabbath. Which is why the real Pre-Advent Judgment, (which is the Laodicean Message), demands that they repent and reform.
Adventist Reform was developed to correct the many errors of the SDA’s and move Adventism forward to a more correct and improved view of theology and doctrine, including an updated view of 21st century eschatology. While some think there is nothing worth salvaging within Adventism, this is very wrong. There is great truth in the paradigm of the Three Angels Messages, and this is what is needed.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -FAITH.htm
While I regret that I cannot visit you personally, I can direct you to a web site in the US, where we have open and free discussions about the Gospel Reform within the SDA Community. This site has specific threads that deal with Ellen White and tithe, as well as many other points of discussion, including the 7th day Gospel Sabbath, which is a new doctrine for every denomination in Laodicea, not just the SDA’s.
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/
Feel free to read this material and participate at whatever level you choose.
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewforum.php?id=11
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=225
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=239
In addition, I would also direct you to visit Dr. Ford’s web site. He is located in your part of the world and I would encourage you to find fellowship with those that embrace his correct Gospel views. His sermons can be found online and he will also answer your Gospel questions, in public, over the Internet.
http://www.desford.org.au/live/
http://www.desford.org.au/home/
http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/bioford.cfm
http://www.youtube.com/fleetwd1
http://www.adventistreform.com/DrDesmondFord.html
I want to encourage you to take hold of the genuine Gospel with both hands, including the 7th day, active, Gospel Sabbath, which is a new and amazing doctrine for all that profess to follow Christ.
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=228
Continue to study and discuss the Bible, especially the Gospels and the NT. Help others escape Old Covenant Adventism by showing them the correct path to New Covenant Adventism. A paradigm change is taking place for the Advent Movement, and many like yourself will be the first to join this new Reformation that is based on the genuine Gospel as well as the Reformed, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath that Jesus teaches in the Gospels.
Jude 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
Jude 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
Jude 22 And have mercy on some, who are doubting;
Jude 23 save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.
Jude 24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
Jude 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
I hope this reply was helpful and I look forward to seeing you online, discussing Adventist Reform.
Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform.
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Tom, I haven't read all your postings and you may have commented on this article that I refer to, but I would like your and any other poster to ATomorrow.net to comment on the approach:
The Transitional Path
How to Minister to Transitioning Seventh-day Adventists
By Dale Ratzlaff
http://lifeassuranceministries.com/pdf% … 20Path.pdf
I found the statements and pathway very interesting, sort of way out of being brainwashed.
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While Adventists have preach about the Laodicean church, that is a perfect description of themselves! They have everything and need nothing. That certitude becomes arrogant that they need not study with others except only to convince them (and themselves) that they hold the absolute truth.
The first paragraph "they believe the Sabbath was given for them at Sinai" which outright baloney! It was ONLY given to the Israelites, never to Gentiles. They must use the OT for the majority of their "proof texts" and ignore the NT where they will find nothing about any sabbath ever being given to the Christians, nor anything about the IJ in 1844, or nothing about abstaining from unclean meats, nor to tithe. In short: all their major unique doctrines come straight from the OT given to the Hebrews!
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Leaving the SDA Church:
The Transitional Path; How to Minister to Transitioning Seventh-day Adventists. By Dale Ratzlaff, a former SDA Pastor.
http://lifeassuranceministries.com/pdf% … 20Path.pdf
Bob 2 said: I found the statements and pathway very interesting, sort of a way out of being brainwashed.
Tom said: Here we have an example of the blind leading the blind. Even worse, these blind men think that they have arrived at the place where they can correctly speak for Jesus and the apostles. But it is a delusion, complete with raging egos out of control.
Luke 6:39 And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
Dale Ratzlaff, like Richard Fredericks, and some other former SDA’s, have embraced the double-talk of so-called “NC Theology.” This lame anti-Sabbatarian teaching claims Jesus has fulfilled the Sabbath, thus abolishing the 7th day for the church. Then these anti-Sabbatarians start worshipping on Sunday, like most everyone else.
But where in the NT did Jesus teach that the Sabbath was abolished or that there is a Sunday Sabbath for the church?
http://www.ratzlaf.com/product1.html
http://www.lifeassuranceministries.com/sic.html
Both sides of this Sabbatarian debate are confused and brainwashed. The SDA, OC Sabbath is wrong and so too this anti-Sabbatarian, NC double-talk about Jesus is the Sabbath; and now let’s all go to church on Sunday.
Neither side is fully correct and thus both sides need to repent and embrace the correct view of the Gospel and the Reformed, 7th day, NC Sabbath.
Former SDA’s Still Wrong!
It should be obvious by now that there is a great need for all SDA’s to repent, be deprogrammed, and correct their fabricated history and many false doctrines. But so too everyone else in Laodicea, including the disoriented, former SDA’s, who have also fallen into a dark pit of false doctrine.
Jesus has judged all denominations in Laodicea “wretched” and full of false doctrine and Gospel error, not just the SDA’s. Moreover, their critics are just as blind as everyone else, not fully understanding the Gospel or the Sabbath.
What is the point of exchanging one set of false doctrines for a different set of errors, even if they are not as absurd as the SDA doctrine about the IJ? Is that the definition of theological progress? Hardly. What happened to the search for truth?
Those so-called “Evangelical SDA’s,” like Ratzlaff and Fredericks were actually wasting everyone’s time. They never figured out any real solutions to the many problems that confronted Adventist theology.
In fact, they just exchanged one set of false doctrines, like the IJ and the OC Sabbath, for another set of errors, like the Sunday Sabbath and the popular error about the dead. Are they any better off? Not really. All those that embrace a false Gospel are doomed, and this includes the anti-Sabbatarian critics as well as the SDA’s.
This is why Dr. Ford had to sever ties with Richard Fredericks and this bungling group of so- called Evangelical SDA’s. And why nothing ever came of all this noise and commotion. There was no sustainable Gospel theology with this group, no eschatology, no Gospel Sabbath, and much confusion, even to the point of practicing tithe, an OC doctrine that is as bad as OC Sabbath keeping.
So this anti-Sabbatarian group is also going to have to repent, learn the correct Gospel, and be deprogrammed themselves, along with the SDA’s, or they too are lost.
Both sides of this debate have bungled the opportunity to complete Sabbath Reform, and thus neither are qualified to teach anyone about the law or the Gospel, much less the Sabbath. Shame on the SDA’s and their critics. They are both acting like very foolish blind men.
SDA’s Need Deprogramming
Regardless, of the many errors of the critics, they are correct to understand that SDA’s are in great need of repentance and deprogramming. The White Estate has brainwashed millions into believing a manipulated and false view of Ellen White and church history as well as one cultic doctrine after another. The White Estate is a cesspool of false doctrine and error, and no one should think otherwise. This criminal fraud has ruined many lives, and it has to be exposed and stopped. (And this process is well underway.)
The Takoma Park apologists have led the church down a path so full of error, dishonesty, and false doctrine that their cultic tag is well deserved. So there is a great need to publish a survival guide for the many indoctrinated SDA’s that leave Adventism every year. It is even more important to publish a guide for those that do not leave.
But such a survival guide cannot be written by those so full of doctrinal error, revenge, and theological incompetence. Ratzlaff and Fredericks have no business trying to fight what thy once supported until they better understand the Gospel and the history of the Three Angels Messages. They should have listened to Dr. Ford about church history, the Gospel, and the Sabbath, paying more attention to the serious pursuit of truth.
However, the critics are not really the problem. The SDA’s have no one to blame but themselves for the present protracted crisis, which has now become an established pattern. The self-destruction of the Denomination, both in Battle Creek and again in Takoma Park, and again in Silver Spring, is not the fault of their critics. The church leaders are fully to blame. They have worked hard to destroy the Advent Movement and they deserve full credit.
The 20th century SDA leaders are responsible for fabricating a false view of Ellen White and church history, and then promoting their fraud to millions as if it were true. They have confused, angered, and disoriented millions, even as they have grossly misrepresented the historic fundamentals upon which all SDA theology rests.
Ellen White would be the first to condemn them for what they have done, demanding that they repent and correct the record.
Of course the leaders knew that Ellen White did not agree with their views, and this is why they suppressed her writings. Ellen White is not the problem as the critics assume; the White Estate is the problem, and so too the General Conference that owns and controls this criminal enterprise.
So yes, there must be a full confession and a correction of the record so that all can understand exactly what the SDA’s taught and what they did not. THEN everyone, including the critics, can better understand where the Adventists were right and where they missed the mark.
Today, few SDA’s or their critics, have any idea what the true landmarks really were, much less what happened in Battle Creek or Takoma Park. Thanks to their dishonest and corrupt leadership, Adventist History has been contaminated with many myths and half-truths, all made to look authentic when published by the church. But the promotion of error and propaganda, no matter how often repeated, will never become truth.
The Adventist Community needs to understand what really happened in Battle Creek, and how Ellen White went to war against the father of Traditional Adventism, Uriah Smith. They need to see how hard she tried to promote Gospel Reform and move the church away from legalism. Too bad that this important history has been hidden from the church, even as a false version of Ellen White and her views was promoted by the White Estate all these years.
The entire Adventist Community, including and especially the critics, need to understand that the White Estate has duped them. Everyone needs to know that Traditional Takoma Park Adventism was a fraud, created by those that misunderstood the Gospel and dishonestly manipulated Ellen White.
The White Estate knew what they were doing was wrong, which is why they were caught hiding thousands of documents about 1888 and Ellen White. This large body of material did not support the official church views of the Gospel or the IJ, or even tithe. Which is why this material, and the real story of 1888, has never been honestly explained to the church.
To tell the truth about SDA history is to expose generations of modern church leaders as liars and frauds, as well as incompetent theologians and horrible historians. Starting with Arthur White, the most dishonest man in the history of SDA’s.
Consequently, Glacier View was based on a fraud. It was based on the assumption that Dr. Ford was taking views against Ellen White, when he was not. He was telling the truth about the Gospel and the Pillars of Historic Adventism, while the incompetent and dishonest White Estate had manipulated church history to say what they wanted to hear. This needs to be understood by all.
In other words, the SDA’s need to know the truth about their history so they can transition from OC Adventism to the NC version as advocated by Adventist Reform. Once the facts are known, and the self-serving propaganda is repudiated and removed, the Advent Community can go forward and complete Sabbath Reform by embracing the Gospel Sabbath and updating their eschatology for the 21st century.
This is the beginning of a correct transition out of Old Covenant Adventism, which is known as the 3rd Angels Message, and forward movement to the 4th Angels Message. This is the correct path for the Advent Movement. The 3rd Angels Message has crashed and burned for all to see. The survivors must pick up the pieces and move forward to the final Adventist Message that closes the work of the church.
Thus the days of double-talk and delusion are coming to an end for the SDA’s. The leaders can no longer control their agenda, or effectively censor the critics, much less defeat them in the public square. Nor can they hide the guilt of the White Estate that has been exposed online for all to see.
Traditional Adventism is dead, and so too those foolish enough to think that the Sunday Sabbath has defeated the Sabbatarians. The opposite is the case, because the 7th day Gospel Sabbath is a featured doctrine of the 4th Angels Message. It not only represents the completion of Sabbath Reform, it condemns every church in the land for their false Gospel and false Sabbath.
The emergence of the 7th day, active Gospel Sabbath is a sure sign that Adventist Reform is in progress and that a paradigm change will move the church forward to the 4th Angels Message.
Truth is the best way to deprogram the Adventist Community from their Old Covenant ways of tithing and false Sabbath Keeping. A corrected record of the Advent Movement, including a definition of the Fundamentals, and the history of 1888, will resolve most all of the problems, including this fabrication about the IJ being a great pillar from Historic Adventism.
No Pioneer ever took such an absurd position, which was invented by the Takoma Park apologists as part of their great fraud and suppression associated with 1888. The Conservatives greatest point in favor of the IJ, that is was a pillar that could never removed, has turned out to be sand. Ellen White never viewed the IJ as a Pillar, much less one in the 1st Angels Message as the leaders have claimed all these years.
What a great and foolish mistake they have made! Thanks to this crime in the White Estate, few know the real Ellen White, whose actual views are very different from what the leaders taught.
In fact, after 1888, Ellen White’s started moving away from the doctrine of tithe, refusing to support it as taught by the church. When the leaders protested, she told them that the Spirit had been moving her away from tithe, for years, and thus she was not going to change her mind.
When were the leaders ever going to share this great insight?
Answer: NEVER. The White Estate was never going to tell the truth about the real Ellen White. That’s why they were hiding so many things in their vault, including the fact that she drank wine for health reasons. Even when this information was discovered in 1979, the church covered it up and continued to promote their massive fraud about Ellen White and church history.
Those who have done this are not only unchristian, immoral, and incompetent, they are criminals that have participated in the largest publishing fraud of any modern church. If Arthur White were alive, he would go to jail for his actions, but the leaders protected him and his fraud because he was working under their direction and control.
While Ratzlaff's deprogramming model falls far short of what is needed, he is correct to understand that all SDA’s are in need of help to escape the dishonest clutches of Traditional Adventism. All SDA’s will have to be deprogrammed in order to make the transition from OC Adventism to the NC version, where history is what it is, and so too the Word, and the Gospel.
The SDA’s have much to repent for and correct. Every point will have to be re-examined and every book revised or taken off the shelves, including any book published by the White Estate. Even the doctrine of the Sabbath will receive a much-needed makeover, as the IJ and tithe are eliminated along with a hierarchical organizational system that is forbidden in the NT.
I repeat: The SDA’s will never get their Gospel bearings, or understand church history or eschatology correctly, until they clean up this massive fraud in the White Estate, which is still ongoing today. The leaders must repent and tell the truth about 1888, eliminating any and all myths, half-truths, and errors from SDA history and theology. This is the only way for them to move forward and advance the Advent Cause.
The Problem with the Critics:
The problem with Ratzlaff’s view is that he does not offer a full solution to the problems. Anyone can find fault with how Ellen White has been used, and with the doctrine of the IJ and the OC Sabbath, as well as many other doctrines. But what about the truth? Is there no truth in Adventism? Is there nothing worth salvaging?
Is every point completely false, wrong, and useless as the critics charge? As if the SDA’s were like the Mormons and Scientologists? And if so, where does Gospel truth now reside? With Ratzlaff and Fredericks? How absurd.
These ex-SDA Pastors no more have the correct Gospel or Sabbath than do the confused SDA’s or anyone else. Fredericks, for example, pushes tithe on his brainwashed church, proving that he is still very OC minded and confused about the Gospel.
How can the blind heal the blind? How can error, when replaced with different error, become truth?
Jesus teaches that those who criticize the religion of others, must first get their own doctrines in order. Neither Ratzlaff nor Federicks has done that. In fact, none of the SDA critics, with the exception of Adventist Reform, has offered a clear, credible, and coherent path for the Advent Movement. All these critics know is how to tear down, destroy, and throw stones.
Luke 6:42 “how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye?
You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.
Truth in the Advent Movement
There is great truth in the Advent Movement and it is a serious mistake for anyone to think otherwise. They are the ones that corrected the many errors associated with 18th century eschatology, even as they discovered the prophetic paradigm of the Three Angels Messages, which is a road map to the final Gospel Message that precedes the Judgments of God and the end of the world.
The Advent Movement gets credit for embracing and establishing many correct theological points and doctrines, such as the Protestant Gospel and the pre-millennial Second coming as the Day of Judgment. (They even get credit for changing the eating habits of untold millions, as evidenced by the cereal isle in every grocery store in the world.)
The SDA’s are also correct about the State of the Dead, (which comes from Luther), as well as the fact that only the 7th day can be the genuine Lord’s day and weekly Sabbath for the church, (which came from SDB’s).
These are both great theological insights that stand as Gospel truth forever, and it is a pity that this denomination did not go forward to complete Sabbath Reform and update their eschatology when they had the opportunity in 1888 and again in 1980. Instead, by refusing to move forward and correct their errors, the leaders plunged the church into confusion and schism.
Such mismanagement has destroyed both the mission and message of the Adventists. They now exist only to make money and build up an Empire for the benefit of the leaders. Like the Jews, who also had much truth, as well as a money making religious empire, the SDA’s squandered their opportunities to better understand the Gospel and the Sabbath, and soon their errors overwhelmed what truth they had. Few today even know that there is truth within Adventism. It is very hard to find. Pity.
While the SDA’s are correct to teach that the final Gospel proclamation in Rev 18 will include the 7th day Sabbath, they are wrong in how they define this doctrine. At best, we can say they are 50% correct about the Sabbath. Only the 7th day is the Lord’s day, not the Sunday Sabbath.
But they are wrong to think their 7th day doctrine is the same as the OC Sabbath. This is an absurd and impossible conclusion, and it is about time that all Sabbatarians, and their critics, better understand the Gospel Sabbath as taught by Jesus in all four Gospels, which has eluded the church all these years.
So the SDA’s need MORE TRUTH. Not less. They need to go forward and build on what truth they have, thus completing Sabbath Reform. Why? So that they can develop the clearest articulation of the Gospel that modern ears has ever heard, fulfilling Rev 18, which is the mission of the Advent Movement.
Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.
To preach the final warning to a doomed world is their purpose, goal, and destiny. This is why they exist. To proclaim the final Gospel Message to a judgment bound world.
This cannot happen without major reform. But this is what must happen. There must be Gospel Reform in the Adventist Community so that its’ historic mission can be completed and prophecy fulfilled.
There is going to be a time of trouble, and the Judgments of God will soon strike the earth. The Advent Movement has a duty to understand these matters and help prepare the church for what is about to take place.
Here is the initial point of separation between Adventist Reform and other critics. Adventist Reform embraces whatever doctrinal truth can be salvaged from Adventism, while other critics pretend there is nothing true or worthwhile in the history or theology of the Three Angels Messages.
Here are some links about Ratzlaff. He is acting like Canright, who was the best of all the anti-Sabbatarian critics. So there is nothing new here.
http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Dale_Ratzlaff
http://www.thefullwiki.org/Dale_Ratzlaff
http://www.lifeassuranceministries.com/ … -Burn.html
http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com … e-out.html
http://www.sdaforme.com/BlogRetrieve.as … stID=80347
Elaine said: While Adventists have preached about the Laodicean church; that is a perfect description of themselves! They have everything and need nothing.
Tom said: 100% correct! The Jews did the same thing. They too thought they had all the answers and everyone else was wrong and sinful. They too had all the truth, blah, blah, blah. But the Jews did not fool Jesus, and thus the SDA’s have no chance of fooling heaven either.
Matt. 21:31 Jesus *said to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.
Rom. 2:13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Rom. 2:17 But if you bear the name “Jew” (or SDA) and rely upon the Law and boast in God,
Rom. 2:18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law,
Rom. 2:19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
Rom. 2:20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,
Rom. 2:21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?
Rom. 2:22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
Rom. 2:23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
The SDA’s, like the Jews, are great sinners and hypocrites.
Elaine said: That certitude becomes so arrogant that they need not study with others except only to convince them (and themselves) that they hold the absolute truth.
Tom said: Even before 1888, Ellen White scolded the SDA’s for acting like the Jews. After 1888 she became certain that they were following in the same wicked path.
Today, we can clearly see that the SDA’s have made the same errors as the Jews, and for the same reasons.
Matt. 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
Matt. 23:14 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
Matt. 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Unless the SDA’s repent of their OC Sabbath, the IJ, and Tithe; (just to name the top three), they will be locked out of the Kingdom of God, just like the OC Jews that also refused to repent and embrace the Gospel.
Elaine said: The first paragraph "they believe the Sabbath was given for them at Sinai," which outright baloney! It was ONLY given to the Israelites, never to Gentiles.
Tom said: The OC Sabbath was only given to the OC Jews. However, the NC Sabbath was given to the Church, through Jesus, and thus it is for all Gospel believers, both Jew and Gentile.
But who today even knows of such a 7th day, Sabbath doctrine? What church teaches the active Gospel Sabbath? NONE!
Elaine said: They must use the OT for the majority of their "proof texts" and ignore the NT where they will find nothing about any sabbath ever being given to the Christians, nor anything about the IJ in 1844, or nothing about abstaining from unclean meats, nor to tithe.
Tom said: The SDA’s are very OC minded. They think the OT is equally binding on the church, when that is an absurd position. They are so confused about the law and the Gospel that they have embraced the Sabbath of Jesus enemies, the very ones that plotted to kill him!
Unless these modern day Pharisees, like Goldstein and Batchlor, repent, and allow those like Dr. Ford to correctly instruct them about the Christian Faith, they will never understand, much less be saved.
Elaine said: In short: all their major unique doctrines come straight from the OT given to the Hebrews!
Tom said: Unless the SDA’s learn how to read the NT and repent for their many absurd doctrines, like the IJ, tithe, and the OC Sabbath, they are doomed. Just like the Jews that they so closely emulate. They are blind by choice, refusing to be healed.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
The SDA’s claim that they represent the new Temple “Storehouse” for tithe. If so, let them contemplate the fate of those that also held this same doctrine. The outcome was horrific. The same fate awaits all that wish to be like the OC, Sabbath keeping Jews.
Luke 13:34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!
Luke 13:35 “Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!’”
Luke 19:41 When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
Luke 19:42 saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
Luke 19:43 “For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side,
Luke 19:44 and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”
Those who live by false doctrine will be destroyed because of it. Like the arrogant, Sabbath obsessed Jews; the SDA’s are playing with the fire of Judgment. They will continue to self-destruct for all to see unless they REPENT and embrace Gospel Reform.
No one that seeks Gospel truth should support the SDA’s or their confused critics, who also need to repent.
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Offline
Leaving the SDA Church:
The Transitional Path; How to Minister to Transitioning Seventh-day Adventists. By Dale Ratzlaff, a former SDA Pastor.
http://www.lifeassuranceministries.com/index.html
http://www.lifeassuranceministries.com/ … 20Path.pdf
Bob 2 said: I found the statements and pathway very interesting, sort of a way out of being brainwashed.
Tom said: Here we have an example of the blind leading the blind. Even worse, these blind men think that they have arrived at the place where they can correctly speak for Jesus and the apostles. But it is a delusion, complete with raging egos out of control.
Luke 6:39 And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
Dale Ratzlaff, like Richard Fredericks, and some other former SDA’s, have embraced the double-talk of so-called “NC Theology.” This lame anti-Sabbatarian teaching claims Jesus has fulfilled the Sabbath, thus abolishing the 7th day for the church. Then these anti-Sabbatarians start worshipping on Sunday, like most everyone else.
But where in the NT did Jesus teach that the Sabbath was abolished or that there is a Sunday Sabbath for the church?
http://www.ratzlaf.com/product1.html
http://www.lifeassuranceministries.com/sic.html
Both sides of this Sabbatarian debate are confused and brainwashed. The SDA, OC Sabbath is wrong and so too this anti-Sabbatarian, NC double-talk about Jesus is the Sabbath; and now let’s all go to church on Sunday.
Neither side is fully correct and thus both sides need to repent and embrace the correct view of the Gospel and the Reformed, 7th day, NC Sabbath.
Former SDA’s Still Wrong!
It should be obvious by now that there is a great need for all SDA’s to repent, be deprogrammed, and correct their fabricated history and many false doctrines. But so too everyone else in Laodicea, including the disoriented, former SDA’s, who have also fallen into a dark pit of false doctrine.
Jesus has judged all denominations in Laodicea “wretched” and full of false doctrine and Gospel error, not just the SDA’s. Moreover, their critics are just as blind as everyone else, not fully understanding the Gospel or the Sabbath.
What is the point of exchanging one set of false doctrines for a different set of errors, even if they are not as absurd as the SDA doctrine about the IJ? Is that the definition of theological progress? Hardly. What happened to the search for truth?
Those so-called “Evangelical SDA’s,” like Ratzlaff and Fredericks were actually wasting everyone’s time. They never figured out any real solutions to the many problems that confronted Adventist theology.
In fact, they just exchanged one set of false doctrines, like the IJ and the OC Sabbath, for another set of errors, like the Sunday Sabbath and the popular error about the dead. Are they any better off? Not really. All those that embrace a false Gospel are doomed, and this includes the anti-Sabbatarian critics as well as the SDA’s.
This is why Dr. Ford had to sever ties with Richard Fredericks and this bungling group of so- called Evangelical SDA’s. And why nothing ever came of all this noise and commotion. There was no sustainable Gospel theology with this group, no eschatology, no Gospel Sabbath, and much confusion, even to the point of practicing tithe, an OC doctrine that is as bad as OC Sabbath keeping.
So this anti-Sabbatarian group is also going to have to repent, learn the correct Gospel, and be deprogrammed themselves, along with the SDA’s, or they too are lost.
Both sides of this debate have bungled the opportunity to complete Sabbath Reform, and thus neither are qualified to teach anyone about the law or the Gospel, much less the Sabbath. Shame on the SDA’s and their critics. They are both acting like very foolish blind men.
SDA’s Need Deprogramming
Regardless, of the many errors of the critics, they are correct to understand that SDA’s are in great need of repentance and deprogramming. The White Estate has brainwashed millions into believing a manipulated and false view of Ellen White and church history as well as one cultic doctrine after another. The White Estate is a cesspool of false doctrine and error, and no one should think otherwise. This criminal fraud has ruined many lives, and it has to be exposed and stopped. (And this process is well underway.)
The Takoma Park apologists have led the church down a path so full of error, dishonesty, and false doctrine that their cultic tag is well deserved. So there is a great need to publish a survival guide for the many indoctrinated SDA’s that leave Adventism every year. It is even more important to publish a guide for those that do not leave.
But such a survival guide cannot be written by those so full of doctrinal error, revenge, and theological incompetence. Ratzlaff and Fredericks have no business trying to fight what thy once supported until they better understand the Gospel and the history of the Three Angels Messages. They should have listened to Dr. Ford about church history, the Gospel, and the Sabbath, paying more attention to the serious pursuit of truth.
However, the critics are not really the problem. The SDA’s have no one to blame but themselves for the present protracted crisis, which has now become an established pattern. The self-destruction of the Denomination, both in Battle Creek and again in Takoma Park, and again in Silver Spring, is not the fault of their critics. The church leaders are fully to blame. They have worked hard to destroy the Advent Movement and they deserve full credit.
The 20th century SDA leaders are responsible for fabricating a false view of Ellen White and church history, and then promoting their fraud to millions as if it were true. They have confused, angered, and disoriented millions, even as they have grossly misrepresented the historic fundamentals upon which all SDA theology rests.
Ellen White would be the first to condemn them for what they have done, demanding that they repent and correct the record.
Of course the leaders knew that Ellen White did not agree with their views, and this is why they suppressed her writings. Ellen White is not the problem as the critics assume; the White Estate is the problem, and so too the General Conference that owns and controls this criminal enterprise.
So yes, there must be a full confession and a correction of the record so that all can understand exactly what the SDA’s taught and what they did not. THEN everyone, including the critics, can better understand where the Adventists were right and where they missed the mark.
Today, few SDA’s or their critics, have any idea what the true landmarks really were, much less what happened in Battle Creek or Takoma Park. Thanks to their dishonest and corrupt leadership, Adventist History has been contaminated with many myths and half-truths, all made to look authentic when published by the church. But the promotion of error and propaganda, no matter how often repeated, will never become truth.
The Adventist Community needs to understand what really happened in Battle Creek, and how Ellen White went to war against the father of Traditional Adventism, Uriah Smith. They need to see how hard she tried to promote Gospel Reform and move the church away from legalism. Too bad that this important history has been hidden from the church, even as a false version of Ellen White and her views was promoted by the White Estate all these years.
The entire Adventist Community, including and especially the critics, need to understand that the White Estate has duped them. Everyone needs to know that Traditional Takoma Park Adventism was a fraud, created by those that misunderstood the Gospel and dishonestly manipulated Ellen White.
The White Estate knew what they were doing was wrong, which is why they were caught hiding thousands of documents about 1888 and Ellen White. This large body of material did not support the official church views of the Gospel or the IJ, or even tithe. Which is why this material, and the real story of 1888, has never been honestly explained to the church.
To tell the truth about SDA history is to expose generations of modern church leaders as liars and frauds, as well as incompetent theologians and horrible historians. Starting with Arthur White, the most dishonest man in the history of SDA’s.
Consequently, Glacier View was based on a fraud. It was based on the assumption that Dr. Ford was taking views against Ellen White, when he was not. He was telling the truth about the Gospel and the Pillars of Historic Adventism, while the incompetent and dishonest White Estate had manipulated church history to say what they wanted to hear. This needs to be understood by all.
In other words, the SDA’s need to know the truth about their history so they can transition from OC Adventism to the NC version as advocated by Adventist Reform. Once the facts are known, and the self-serving propaganda is repudiated and removed, the Advent Community can go forward and complete Sabbath Reform by embracing the Gospel Sabbath and updating their eschatology for the 21st century.
This is the beginning of a correct transition out of Old Covenant Adventism, which is known as the 3rd Angels Message, and forward movement to the 4th Angels Message. This is the correct path for the Advent Movement. The 3rd Angels Message has crashed and burned for all to see. The survivors must pick up the pieces and move forward to the final Adventist Message that closes the work of the church.
Thus the days of double-talk and delusion are coming to an end for the SDA’s. The leaders can no longer control their agenda, or effectively censor the critics, much less defeat them in the public square. Nor can they hide the guilt of the White Estate that has been exposed online for all to see.
Traditional Adventism is dead, and so too those foolish enough to think that the Sunday Sabbath has defeated the Sabbatarians. The opposite is the case, because the 7th day Gospel Sabbath is a featured doctrine of the 4th Angels Message. It not only represents the completion of Sabbath Reform, it condemns every church in the land for their false Gospel and false Sabbath.
The emergence of the 7th day, active Gospel Sabbath is a sure sign that Adventist Reform is in progress and that a paradigm change will move the church forward to the 4th Angels Message.
Truth is the best way to deprogram the Adventist Community from their Old Covenant ways of tithing and false Sabbath Keeping. A corrected record of the Advent Movement, including a definition of the Fundamentals, and the history of 1888, will resolve most all of the problems, including this fabrication about the IJ being a great pillar from Historic Adventism.
No Pioneer ever took such an absurd position, which was invented by the Takoma Park apologists as part of their great fraud and suppression associated with 1888. The Conservatives greatest point in favor of the IJ, that is was a pillar that could never removed, has turned out to be sand. Ellen White never viewed the IJ as a Pillar, much less one in the 1st Angels Message as the leaders have claimed all these years.
What a great and foolish mistake they have made! Thanks to this crime in the White Estate, few know the real Ellen White, whose actual views are very different from what the leaders taught.
In fact, after 1888, Ellen White’s started moving away from the doctrine of tithe, refusing to support it as taught by the church. When the leaders protested, she told them that the Spirit had been moving her away from tithe, for years, and thus she was not going to change her mind.
When were the leaders ever going to share this great insight?
Answer: NEVER. The White Estate was never going to tell the truth about the real Ellen White. That’s why they were hiding so many things in their vault, including the fact that she drank wine for health reasons. Even when this information was discovered in 1979, the church covered it up and continued to promote their massive fraud about Ellen White and church history.
Those who have done this are not only unchristian, immoral, and incompetent, they are criminals that have participated in the largest publishing fraud of any modern church. If Arthur White were alive, he would go to jail for his actions, but the leaders protected him and his fraud because he was working under their direction and control.
While Ratzlaff's deprogramming model falls far short of what is needed, he is correct to understand that all SDA’s are in need of help to escape the dishonest clutches of Traditional Adventism. All SDA’s will have to be deprogrammed in order to make the transition from OC Adventism to the NC version, where history is what it is, and so too the Word, and the Gospel.
The SDA’s have much to repent for and correct. Every point will have to be re-examined and every book revised or taken off the shelves, including any book published by the White Estate. Even the doctrine of the Sabbath will receive a much-needed makeover, as the IJ and tithe are eliminated along with a hierarchical organizational system that is forbidden in the NT.
I repeat: The SDA’s will never get their Gospel bearings, or understand church history or eschatology correctly, until they clean up this massive fraud in the White Estate, which is still ongoing today. The leaders must repent and tell the truth about 1888, eliminating any and all myths, half-truths, and errors from SDA history and theology. This is the only way for them to move forward and advance the Advent Cause.
The Problem with the Critics:
The problem with Ratzlaff’s view is that he does not offer a full solution to the problems. Anyone can find fault with how Ellen White has been used, and with the doctrine of the IJ and the OC Sabbath, as well as many other doctrines. But what about the truth? Is there no truth in Adventism? Is there nothing worth salvaging?
Is every point completely false, wrong, and useless as the critics charge? As if the SDA’s were like the Mormons and Scientologists? And if so, where does Gospel truth now reside? With Ratzlaff and Fredericks? How absurd.
These ex-SDA Pastors no more have the correct Gospel or Sabbath than do the confused SDA’s or anyone else. Fredericks, for example, pushes tithe on his brainwashed church, proving that he is still very OC minded and confused about the Gospel.
How can the blind heal the blind? How can error, when replaced with different error, become truth?
Jesus teaches that those who criticize the religion of others, must first get their own doctrines in order. Neither Ratzlaff nor Federicks has done that. In fact, none of the SDA critics, with the exception of Adventist Reform, has offered a clear, credible, and coherent path for the Advent Movement. All these critics know is how to tear down, destroy, and throw stones.
Luke 6:42 “how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye?
You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.
Truth in the Advent Movement
There is great truth in the Advent Movement and it is a serious mistake for anyone to think otherwise. They are the ones that corrected the many errors associated with 18th century eschatology, even as they discovered the prophetic paradigm of the Three Angels Messages, which is a road map to the final Gospel Message that precedes the Judgments of God and the end of the world.
The Advent Movement gets credit for embracing and establishing many correct theological points and doctrines, such as the Protestant Gospel and the pre-millennial Second coming as the Day of Judgment. (They even get credit for changing the eating habits of untold millions, as evidenced by the cereal isle in every grocery store in the world.)
The SDA’s are also correct about the State of the Dead, (which comes from Luther), as well as the fact that only the 7th day can be the genuine Lord’s day and weekly Sabbath for the church, (which came from SDB’s).
These are both great theological insights that stand as Gospel truth forever, and it is a pity that this denomination did not go forward to complete Sabbath Reform and update their eschatology when they had the opportunity in 1888 and again in 1980. Instead, by refusing to move forward and correct their errors, the leaders plunged the church into confusion and schism.
Such mismanagement has destroyed both the mission and message of the Adventists. They now exist only to make money and build up an Empire for the benefit of the leaders. Like the Jews, who also had much truth, as well as a money making religious empire, the SDA’s squandered their opportunities to better understand the Gospel and the Sabbath, and soon their errors overwhelmed what truth they had. Few today even know that there is truth within Adventism. It is very hard to find. Pity.
While the SDA’s are correct to teach that the final Gospel proclamation in Rev 18 will include the 7th day Sabbath, they are wrong in how they define this doctrine. At best, we can say they are 50% correct about the Sabbath. Only the 7th day is the Lord’s day, not the Sunday Sabbath.
But they are wrong to think their 7th day doctrine is the same as the OC Sabbath. This is an absurd and impossible conclusion, and it is about time that all Sabbatarians, and their critics, better understand the Gospel Sabbath as taught by Jesus in all four Gospels, which has eluded the church all these years.
So the SDA’s need MORE TRUTH. Not less. They need to go forward and build on what truth they have, thus completing Sabbath Reform. Why? So that they can develop the clearest articulation of the Gospel that modern ears has ever heard, fulfilling Rev 18, which is the mission of the Advent Movement.
Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.
To preach the final warning to a doomed world is their purpose, goal, and destiny. This is why they exist. To proclaim the final Gospel Message to a judgment bound world.
This cannot happen without major reform. But this is what must happen. There must be Gospel Reform in the Adventist Community so that its’ historic mission can be completed and prophecy fulfilled.
There is going to be a time of trouble, and the Judgments of God will soon strike the earth. The Advent Movement has a duty to understand these matters and help prepare the church for what is about to take place.
Here is the initial point of separation between Adventist Reform and other critics. Adventist Reform embraces whatever doctrinal truth can be salvaged from Adventism, while other critics pretend there is nothing true or worthwhile in the history or theology of the Three Angels Messages.
Here are some links about Ratzlaff. He is acting like Canright, who was the best of all the anti-Sabbatarian critics. So there is nothing new here.
http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Dale_Ratzlaff
http://www.thefullwiki.org/Dale_Ratzlaff
http://www.lifeassuranceministries.com/ … -Burn.html
http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com … e-out.html
http://www.sdaforme.com/BlogRetrieve.as … stID=80347
Elaine said: While Adventists have preached about the Laodicean church; that is a perfect description of themselves! They have everything and need nothing.
Tom said: 100% correct! The Jews did the same thing. They too thought they had all the answers and everyone else was wrong and sinful. They too had all the truth, blah, blah, blah. But the Jews did not fool Jesus, and thus the SDA’s have no chance of fooling heaven either.
Matt. 21:31 Jesus *said to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.
Rom. 2:13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Rom. 2:17 But if you bear the name “Jew” (or SDA) and rely upon the Law and boast in God,
Rom. 2:18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law,
Rom. 2:19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
Rom. 2:20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,
Rom. 2:21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?
Rom. 2:22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
Rom. 2:23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
The SDA’s, like the Jews, are great sinners and hypocrites.
Elaine said: That certitude becomes so arrogant that they need not study with others except only to convince them (and themselves) that they hold the absolute truth.
Tom said: Even before 1888, Ellen White scolded the SDA’s for acting like the Jews. After 1888 she became certain that they were following in the same wicked path.
Today, we can clearly see that the SDA’s have made the same errors as the Jews, and for the same reasons.
Matt. 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
Matt. 23:14 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
Matt. 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Unless the SDA’s repent of their OC Sabbath, the IJ, and Tithe; (just to name the top three), they will be locked out of the Kingdom of God, just like the OC Jews that also refused to repent and embrace the Gospel.
Elaine said: The first paragraph "they believe the Sabbath was given for them at Sinai," which outright baloney! It was ONLY given to the Israelites, never to Gentiles.
Tom said: The OC Sabbath was only given to the OC Jews. However, the NC Sabbath was given to the Church, through Jesus, and thus it is for all Gospel believers, both Jew and Gentile.
But who today even knows of such a 7th day, Sabbath doctrine? What church teaches the active Gospel Sabbath? NONE!
Elaine said: They must use the OT for the majority of their "proof texts" and ignore the NT where they will find nothing about any sabbath ever being given to the Christians, nor anything about the IJ in 1844, or nothing about abstaining from unclean meats, nor to tithe.
Tom said: The SDA’s are very OC minded. They think the OT is equally binding on the church, when that is an absurd position. They are so confused about the law and the Gospel that they have embraced the Sabbath of Jesus enemies, the very ones that plotted to kill him!
Unless these modern day Pharisees, like Goldstein and Batchlor, repent, and allow those like Dr. Ford to correctly instruct them about the Christian Faith, they will never understand, much less be saved.
Elaine said: In short: all their major unique doctrines come straight from the OT given to the Hebrews!
Tom said: Unless the SDA’s learn how to read the NT and repent for their many absurd doctrines, like the IJ, tithe, and the OC Sabbath, they are doomed. Just like the Jews that they so closely emulate. They are blind by choice, refusing to be healed.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
The SDA’s claim that they represent the new Temple “Storehouse” for tithe. If so, let them contemplate the fate of those that also held this same doctrine. The outcome was horrific. The same fate awaits all that wish to be like the OC, Sabbath keeping Jews.
Luke 13:34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!
Luke 13:35 “Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!’”
Luke 19:41 When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
Luke 19:42 saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
Luke 19:43 “For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side,
Luke 19:44 and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”
Those who live by false doctrine will be destroyed because of it. Like the arrogant, Sabbath obsessed Jews; the SDA’s are playing with the fire of Judgment. They will continue to self-destruct for all to see unless they REPENT and embrace Gospel Reform.
No one that seeks Gospel truth should support the SDA’s or their confused critics, who also need to repent.
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Future trends in the SDA church and Ted Wilson
I read your very interesting and I think correct analysis of the impact of Glacier view and Walter Rae from 2006. In view if the recent report of the SDA church being the fastest growing denomination in the US today (by percentage figures), do you think this is a real change in trends or simply only a chance fluctuation that is simply coincidental?
Also, what impact can we likely see by the election of Ted Wilson, son of Neal Wilson who was the president during Glacier View. I have listened to his sermon from the General Conference session and he made some interesting comments on personal bible studies and meditative prayer. Are we likely to see a trend towards dogmatism and scholasticism again at the expense of true personal spiritual growth and experiences?
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Tom Norris replied: The SDA Church is NOT Growing
Contrary to reports in the press, the SDA church (in North American) is not growing. In fact, if all the non-participating members were removed from the records, the real membership would plummet and the numbers, which officially show a 1% gain, would go very negative.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2 … 7_ST_N.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ndance.htm
In other words, if the SDA’s were honest, they would show a much smaller membership and growth rate. I personally know scores of former SDA’s, including myself, that no longer support the policies or doctrines of the Denomination; but yet, 10’s of thousands of such names remain on the books, making the church appear larger than it really is.
While the SDA’s claim about 1 million members in the North American Division, the actual numbers of those that participate and support the church are probably less than half that amount.
Moreover, recent studies have concluded that not only are they not keeping pace with the population growth, the new converts they capture are minorities, with blacks joining the church at a rate almost three times the ethnic population.
Ethnic composition of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Not only is the church not keeping up with the general population growth, what little growth there is, does not match the ethnic makeup of North America. New membership in the NAD comes mainly from the African descent demographic. This group makes up approximately 30 percent of the NAD membership compared to its 12.8 percent share of the population. Though we rejoice in the diversity of the church, this figure shows that NAD is not effectively reaching the Caucasian descent group. They make up 55 percent of the NAD church relative to a 67 percent population in 2005.
Similarly, the Hispanics make up 9 percent of the NAD church; they constitute 13 percent of the population. Those of Asian descent and other races are represented in the church at rates closer to that of the population.
Reflections on the future of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in North America: Trends and challenges (part 1 of 2)
http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive … ntism.html
Today, the SDA church in America is confused, fragmented and dying. It is not honest about its history, nor does it have a credible mission or message. It is irrelevant and cultic, no longer appealing to either an educated or White demographic. This is why it no longer grows.
As a result Adventism is becoming much more difficult to market and promote, as the cost per convert underscores. The SDA Cost Per Convert (CPC) has risen from $5,500 in 1913 to $41,000 in 2005. This shows that propaganda is both expensive and not working. Such spending levels are not sustainable, and neither are their doctrines, such as the IJ.
Economic productivity: Total dollars spent per convert
In terms of economic productivity, the Seventh-day Adventist Church in the NAD was spending about $41,000 in 2005 per convert while in 1913 it took about $5,500 (2005 US$) to do the same. This indicates inefficiency in resource management, with much of the donated money to the denomination being spent to support the structural system of the church in its various levels and organizations, nurture members, and sustain our educational system. Should we not be investing more of our resources directly in the evangelistic mission of the church and less in the administration of the church?
http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive … ntism.html
http://adventistperspective.blogspot.co … re-of.html
Adventism is Dying; Not Growing
Another problem trend is the average age of church members. While the median age of the population is 36, the median age of the SDA membership is 51. Which means that once these older members pass on, there will be very few to carry on. The numbers show a lack of growth today, which gets even worse in the future.
Make no mistake about it; the SDA church is dying, and no amount of creative book keeping can stop the slow self-destruction of this unique American church that changed the way every denomination viewed the Judgment. It is sad to see the great Advent Movement reduced to such irrelevance and mismanagement.
The Graying of Adventism
Another important trend is reflected in what is being called the “graying of Adventism.”9 In 2008 the median age of Adventists in the NAD was 51 years while the median age in the population was 36. These numbers mean the church is not doing well in keeping or attracting young believers. The church seems to be surviving by the energy and resources of previous generations. But if this graying trend continues, what is going to happen to the church when these supportive generations fade into the sunset?
http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive … ntism.html
See also:
http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Article … fault.aspx
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ndance.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … istics.htm
As for President Wilson Jr.
The modern SDA’s have had poor leadership over the years. Which explains why the Denomination is self-destructing today. One of the worst leaders was Elder Neal Wilson. This hierarchical minded President allowed the Conservatives to promote a fraudulent version of Adventist history to the church, which resulted in the exile of Dr. Ford at Glacier View in 1980.
This mistake is the root cause for the present malaise and schism that still haunts the Denomination. Until the SDA’s repent for Glacier View, and correct the record in the White Estate, they will continue to self-destruct for all to see.
It would be wonderful if the son could correct his fathers mistake, clean up the White Estate, and save the Denomination, moving it forward within the Adventist Apocalyptic to a more credible and Gospel based eschatology. Unfortunately, he does not look like the Reformer type.
If the new President is going to pretend that this church is not divided over the Gospel, he will be a great failure. This is the great challenge that must be met and conquered. The SDA’s must, must, must, understand the correct Gospel, and repent for their many errors and false doctrines. Or they are lost.
They must also understand and embrace the genuine version of the Three Angels Messages, even as they throw out every false pillar and worthless myth, of which they have many.
Wilson Sr depended on others for doctrinal guidance. This error allowed the White Estate, the Review, and the rest of the Traditional minded SDA’s to promote a false Gospel that was made official at Glacier View. This was followed by a Creed, called the 27 Fundamentals, which forced a false Judgment (IJ) upon all, and split the church.
Glacier View started a great schism that is still ongoing today. This error is what must be corrected. This unresolved debate about Gospel theology and prophecy must be resolved in order for the Advent Movement to survive, prosper, and grow.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform
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I don't feel as strongly about the negative aspects of the church as some here, and I don't much care whether my name is on the books. I don't think it helps my salvation any but it doesn't harm it either.
Still, I was disappointed with the early things out of wilson. Recently, I went to a north american city where I used to live and attended two different churches I used to attend. One has shrunk rapidly and is now populated mainly by octogenarians and whatever direct relatives they can cajole into attending. Sermon is heavy on SofP, clean/unclean meats, and there is an exhaustively long list of proscribed musical expressions.
the other church has tripled in size, is warm and vibrant. Sermon is gospel-focused.
If I was more suspicious, I'd wonder if the primary function of the "health message" and the related lengthening of life of traditional adventists is to artificially keep the membership lists longer.
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Anyone thinking of leaving SDA? Don't until something better replaces it! This is why Adventist Reformation is necessary!
The GC speaks about revival and reformation but does it fully know what this involves?
History shows that most revivals and reformations began with ordinary lay people praying and studying their bibles together: from the grassroots not top down, humanistic, bureaucratic attempts to manufacture revival and reformation. The Holy Spirit must take control of people's lives. This is our greatest lack today.
Revival begins when we truely see ourselves as depraved sinners desparately in need of the Saviour. We must study Jesus Christ's life over and over again. We must read what his Apostles wrote concerning our salvation in the New Testament, over and over. We must receive by faith God's Holy Spirit - the New Birth in all his fullness.
When the Holy Spirit comes into our lives, homes and churches a true Reformation will take place. We will understand things in the Bible, especially the New Testament that we have never understood properly before, our spiritual eyes will be opened to God's marvellous working of salvation in our own lives. True New Testament doctrine on how we are saved, the Heavenly Sanctuary, spiritual gifts, the ministry of all believers, Christ being the Head of his church, etc., will be re-established and a new movement may have to arise, if the old one refuses to change.
Keep praying, studying and sharing positive messages on this good website, and spread the message about it with your SDA friends.
God has to do something and I believe he will.
God bless all of you.
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We must study Jesus Christ's life over and over again. We must read what his Apostles wrote concerning our salvation in the New Testament, over and over. We must receive by faith God's Holy Spirit - the New Birth in all his fullness.
Amen Brother. I studied the Apostles and came to the realization that they are at odds with the writings of ellen. I chose the scriptures. That is precisely why I left the Adventist Church. SDAs choose ellen. SDAs have no choice if they want to remain faithful to the doctrines. ellen is the last word. She is their light however dim it is. Funny though even then most choose to pick only bits and pieces of what she taught.
Jesus freed Christians from the old covenant law and ellen puts her flock back under it, your choice. Choose this day who you will serve. I choose to be free in Jesus. SDAs are, by choice, servants of ellen and Moses while having one toe in the New Covenant.
SDAs would like to have the remainder of Christianity believe they too are mainline. Wonder why?
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Yitzak said: I don't feel as strongly about the negative aspects of the church as some here, and I don't much care whether my name is on the books. I don't think it helps my salvation any but it doesn't harm it either.
Tom said: Millions have left the SDA church in the last 30 years. Moreover, many of those that left, - still have their names on the books. They really don’t care; they are finished with the utter nonsense and legalism of the SDA’s.
There is no spiritual benefit to having ones name on the books, or even going to church every Saturday. The Gospel cannot be found in the SDA church, so it does more harm to place oneself in such a false environment than not.
Yitzak said: Still, I was disappointed with the early things out of Wilson.
Tom said: The son is much like the father. This is not good; Neal Wilson never understood the Gospel, much less the genuine fundamentals of the Three Angels Messages. This is the problem with most all the SDA leaders. They are legalistic, full of false doctrine, myth, and lots of double-talk.
Yitzak said: Recently, I went to a North American city where I used to live and attended two different churches I used to attend. One has shrunk rapidly and is now populated mainly by octogenarians and whatever direct relatives they can cajole into attending. Sermon is heavy on SOP, clean/unclean meats, and there is an exhaustively long list of proscribed musical expressions. The other church has tripled in size, is warm and vibrant. Sermon is gospel-focused.
Tom said: Most of the SDA churches in NA are dying a slow and painful death. A few seem vibrant, but this is only a temporary delusion. There is far too much cognitive dissonance in the SDA community for anything to make sense or be successful.
The Advent Movement has been dying in front of our eyes for the past 30 years. Nothing has been done to stop this well deserved meltdown, as the leaders continue to pretend that they have done nothing wrong and that they have no false doctrine. Until they can admit they have been wrong, and confess, they are doomed…
Yitzak said: If I was more suspicious, I'd wonder if the primary function of the "health message" and the related lengthening of life of traditional Adventists is to artificially keep the membership lists longer.
Tom said: Most SDA’s of today are not vegetarian, nor do they eat right, live longer, or look healthy. This idea that SDA’s today are healthier than others is outdated news. At one time this was true, but no longer. Sad.
J Knight said: Anyone thinking of leaving SDA? Don't until something better replaces it! This is why Adventist Reformation is necessary!
Tom said: There must be plenty of people still thinking about leaving, because I get questions all the time about this. I even get questions from people thinking about joining. Most of these usually don’t go forward once they find out how divided, legalistic, and confused things have become.
While I understand the thinking about not leaving until something better has been developed, such advice can only last so long.
How many years must people wait to hear the Gospel?
How many years must people wait for the leaders to confess and repent for 1888 and Glacier View, as well as the fraud in the White Estate?
The more people stay to support the hierarchy, the less change will occur. Only when the river of tithe money dries up, will those in charge seriously consider repentance and reform.
Money is all that matters to the leaders and to the pastors. This is what drives everything that is done. The entire SDA organization is built on the Old Covenant doctrine of tithe, not correct Gospel theology. Such a practice proves that the SDA’s do not understand the Gospel, or anything close to it. And they don’t care. They will take the money now and worry about false doctrine later. Such an attitude is their doom.
It is very wrong for anyone to pay tithe and embrace a false, SDA Gospel, which is no Gospel at all. Those who do this are risking their own Eternal Life, as well as any hope of a functional life here and now. The SDA’s have turned into a dishonest, corrupt cult and there is no sense in trying to pretend otherwise.
As for Adventist Reform; this is their only hope, the only credible path for the Adventist Community. The sooner this fact is understood and embraced the better.
So it is time to promote and push AR forward, even as it is time for all to turn their backs on the corrupt SDA hierarchy that seems well beyond correction or reform.
J Knight said: The GC speaks about revival and reformation but does it fully know what this involves?
Tom said: The GC is corrupt and dishonest to the core. There is no gospel truth to anything they say. The leaders do not know the Gospel or church history correctly, nor do they care. It is their way or the highway. Just like the 1st century, Sabbath keeping, tithe paying, anti-Gospel Jews.
Consequently, it is time for all those who want to see the Advent Movement go forward, - to move away from the SDA organization and embrace Adventist Reform. In other words, it is time for the Adventist Community to take charge of their own destiny. It is time for the development of the next level of Adventism. Such new wine cannot exist in old wineskins.
Old Covenant Adventism must be repudiated; replaced with New Covenant Adventism. Which is to say that the failed and terminated 3rd Angels Message is to be replaced with a new paradigm that the Pioneers called the 4th Angels Message.
This is where the Advent Movement must migrate; - to the last Gospel Message as shown in Rev 18. Here is the goal of Adventism; to declare the Protestant Gospel and prepare the last church for the Judgment Day, which is the 2nd Coming.
J Knight said: History shows that most revivals and reformations began with ordinary lay people praying and studying their bibles together: from the grassroots not top down, humanistic, bureaucratic attempts to manufacture revival and reformation. The Holy Spirit must take control of people's lives. This is our greatest lack today.
Tom said: The Gospel was a populist movement, led by a band of uneducated, poor peasants. None were Priests or religious leaders.
Moreover, the church started in direct violation of both Judaism and the laws of Rome. Its' leader was a condemned criminal, his teachings outlawed by the religious and civil authorities of the day.
The fact that the Gospel survived to become the church is as much of a miracle as the Gospel itself. To bad so few today have any idea how to define or understand the Gospel. It is almost unknown today.
J Knight said: Revival begins when we truly see ourselves as depraved sinners desperately in need of the Saviour.
Tom said: For SDA’s, it means they must confess the false doctrine of the IJ, tithe, and many other errors and false doctrines.
J Knight said: We must study Jesus Christ's life over and over again. We must read what his Apostles wrote concerning our salvation in the New Testament, over and over. We must receive by faith God's Holy Spirit - the New Birth in all his fullness.
Tom said: We must embrace the Gospel teachings of Christ, by faith. This leads to Eternal Life. Not law keeping, and tithe paying, as the SDA’s teach.
J Knight said: When the Holy Spirit comes into our lives, homes and churches a true Reformation will take place. We will understand things in the Bible, especially the New Testament that we have never understood properly before; our spiritual eyes will be opened to God's marvelous working of salvation in our own lives.
Tom said: The Holy Spirit can only work within the context of the Gospel teachings of Christ. If people do not honestly study the Word, the HS will be on no use or benefit.
J knight said: True New Testament doctrine on how we are saved, the Heavenly Sanctuary, spiritual gifts, the ministry of all believers, Christ being the Head of his church, etc., will be re-established and a new movement may have to arise, if the old one refuses to change.
Tom said: The OC minded SDA’s have made their decision for all to see. They will not repent or confess their many errors. They are not sorry for Glacier View, nor will they admit that Traditional Adventism is full of error, fraud, and false doctrine. So be it. Like the Jews, they are determined not to believe the Gospel. And like the Jews, they will pay the price for their stubborn unbelief.
No one today should hold any illusions about the SDA hierarchy repenting and embracing Adventist Reform. They are too corrupt, -- too far gone. Sad.
Consequently, it is time for a paradigm shift within the Advent Movement. Adventist Reform is the proper path.
J Knight said: Keep praying, studying and sharing positive messages on this good website, and spread the message about it with your SDA friends. God has to do something and I believe he will. God bless all of you.
Tom said: I agree. Thanks to the Internet, there is no reason why the SDA community cannot make the necessary corrections and go forward to develop Gospel Adventism. This idea of defending the status quo, as if it was pure truth, is utter insanity.
It is time for OC Adventism to be replaced with the NC version. This is what Adventist Reform is all about.
Bob, a former SDA, now a supporter of NC theology said:
Amen Brother. I studied the Apostles and came to the realization that they are at odds with the writings of Ellen. I chose the scriptures. That is precisely why I left the Adventist Church. SDAs choose Ellen.
Tom replied: The history of Ellen White has not been honestly told to the Adventist Community. So all need to understand this point and not assume that the White Estate’s version of things is either honest or true. It is neither. So care is needed to understand things properly.
Moreover, while you claim to “follow the scripture” this is not true. The NT does not support your confused view of the Sabbath, and we have gone over this many times.
When the Gospel is correctly understood, so too the doctrine of the Sabbath. At this point, there is no denomination in the world that has the correct view of the Gospel Sabbath. Not even the SDA’s. But this will change under the last Advent Message.
The final Gospel proclamation will contain the correct theology about the Sabbath and everything else. This is why the NT shows a great Reformation at the end of time. (Rev 18)
Bob said: SDAs have no choice if they want to remain faithful to the doctrines. Ellen is the last word. She is their light however dim it is. Funny though even then most choose to pick only bits and pieces of what she taught.
Tom said: This idea that the modern SDA leaders have been following Ellen White is laughable. While they were claiming this is what they were doing, they are in fact, doing the opposite. This is why they were caught hiding so many Ellen white documents in the vault, -because they were NOT following her views about the law and the Gospel, the Judgment, or even tithe and church organization.
The SDA’s will never understand things clearly until they force the White Estate to confess what they have done and correct the record. Until that happens, no one should trust anything that the White Estate publishes, because it is most likely misleading and untrue.
Bob said: Jesus freed Christians from the old covenant law and Ellen puts her flock back under it, your choice.
Tom said: Very few have any idea how to separate the Old Covenant from the New. The fact that Ellen White was wrong about the Gospel is hardly news. What is news however, is that she changed her view of the Gospel and rejected the typical SDA Gospel of works. This is what the White Estate was hiding in their vaults.
What a tragedy that the 1888 history was kept away from the church. If only the leaders had told the truth, things would have been much different for SDA’s.
Regardless, no denomination today is correctly promoting the NC, which is why none of them even have a correct doctrine about the Sabbath. NOT ONE!
While it is easy to show that the SDA’s are wrong, so too are their many critics, who themselves are divided and confused about the law and the Gospel, as well as the Sabbath and eschatology, etc. This is why Jesus condemns every church and denomination in Laodicea, not just the SDA’s. They are all wrong.
Moreover, those SDA’s who embraced the false Sabbath of NCT, have jumped from one error into another. They did not find the Gospel Sabbath of Christ, nor does it seem they are seriously looking. They are content with error, even as they have become another loud-mouthed cult trying to promote some pet obsession.
NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953
Bob said: Choose this day who you will serve. I choose to be free in Jesus.
Tom said: What does this mean? Are you free to ignore the teaching of Jesus? Is that what you think you are free of? Jesus teaches a 7th day working Sabbath, where one is not guilty of breaking the law of the 4th Commandment for doing work. But yet you reject his doctrine? You deny that Jesus teaches an active, NC Sabbath for all mankind.
Many have left Adventism so angry and hurt, so emotionally damaged and confused about theology, that they can’t think straight. This is why NCT has such an appeal to former SDA’s. It is for those who hate the OC Sabbath so much that they can’t reason correctly.
Bob said: SDAs are, by choice, servants of Ellen and Moses while having one toe in the New Covenant. SDAs would like to have the remainder of Christianity believe they too are mainline. Wonder why?
Tom said: The SDA’s are a dishonest, double-talking cult. They are really all about money, even though they pretend they are about theology. So they cannot get high marks for anything.
But this does not mean that there is no truth within Adventist history or theology. The Three Angels Messages is the correct eschatological path for the last church, but the SDA’s no longer understand their own history or theology correctly. Sad.
Bottom line; it is time for Adventist Reform. There is no other credible option for the Adventist Community.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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My breakthrough on November 26, 2012 from two months of hell. My life has been that way since 1983.
I am having a hard time understanding the doctrine they teach. Both Sabbath keepers and Sunday keepers, I am just useless to them and a BIG headache.
Their motive is MONEY. Be sure to bring some money. tithe, investment, church offering or whatever, Just pay up or else.
Now which church should I join lest they throw me to the curb?
I 'm 61 and I am not getting any younger. When was the last time I left sda church? 1998. NO churches since.
Last edited by l_miller (12-16-12 1:28 pm)
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The scattered and divided SDA flock should come together as New Covenant Adventists and start their own congregations, where the error of tithe is not practiced and the resources are for the benefit of the local church instead of a corrupt hierarchy.
Those with the gifts of the Spirit should pick up the fallen pillars and move the church forward to better understand the Gospel, including the Sabbath and the final events.
It is clear that the Advent Movement must go forward without the organized SDA's. Their leaders no longer care for truth, nor are they honest. So who needs them? The Adventist people can organize themselves and move forward to the final level, which is based on the Gospel, not law.
Time to go forward...
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Question
Hello Sal,
I will soon be meeting with an elder of the local SDA church to tell him that I will no longer attend SDA's worship services. Your comments open my eyes and he seems closed to the looking objectively in Scriptures. Any suggestions on how to leave?
Best regards,
Serge
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Answer:
Dear Brother Serge:
Congratulations on your decision to free yourself of SDAism. No doubt the Holy Spirit played a big role in this, but you did have to be open to the truth. I know that the decision wasn’t an easy one to make. The fact that you have accepted the promptings of the Holy Spirit in this regard speaks volumes about your love for God over love of self. May God continue to bless you in your move from the bondage of SDAism to the freedom of the Gospel.
“How Do I Resign From the Adventism?”
http://www.truthorfables.com/Why_Remain_SDA.htm
A site to help SDAs leave that may be helpful to you.
http://leavingsda.com/
You might like to contact Former Adventist fellowship for support.
http://www.formeradventist.com/
Thanks for sharing the good news and do not hesitate to let me know if I can be of any assistance.
Brother Sal
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Breaking Up With The Church
http://www.adventistreview.org/141505-14
This Review article is troubling for a number of reasons. It reads more like propaganda instead of an honest discussion about why so many are leaving Adventism. Consequently, it solves nothing, even as it demonstrates that the Review is clueless about how to deal with such a serious problem.
No doubt, if the church allowed a free press, people would not need to hide their views for fear of retribution. So the first issue is why did the author wish to remain anonymous? And why would the Review publish positions from those who want to stand in the shadows? Very strange. There are no anonymous names in the Book of Life, nor should anyone make comments in the dark. The Gospel features honesty, openness, and transparency, where all are free to speak their minds to one another in the church.
Second, it is obvious that this Denominational apologist, who wants to remain hidden, is trying to address the ongoing rush to leave the church. However, such an article is way too late. Millions have already walked out the door following the debacle of Glacier View in 1980 and more leave every year, because of the church’s incorrect positions about the IJ and Ellen White, just to name a few errors.
Glacier View is why the great exodus started, and here is where it must be resolved and stopped. If the SDA’s cannot honestly face up to their confused and troubled doctrines, correcting their errors and apologizing to Dr. Ford, then people SHOULD leave because the Denomination is as doomed as were the 1st century Jews that refused to embrace the Gospel.
Third, this idea that we should be loyal to the Denomination, as if it were our wife or husband is absurd and insulting, as well as arrogant and theologically wrong. This is not about “abandonment” of any church organization, but the search for Gospel Truth. The latter must be the driving force for all that follow Christ. The search for truth is why the Advent Movement started, and this correct attitude must be recaptured or the SDA's will die.
If the SDA’s teach a flawed, distorted Gospel, and they do, then no one should support them. All should leave, and this is eventually what is going to take place if they don’t soon repent and honestly update their history by removing myths and half-truths about their doctrines. At this point, the Denomination is very close to a total meltdown, and it is only a matter of “when,” not “if.” There is no use in denying the obvious facts. Millions have left and more are leaving every day, and this article is only working to speed up this fatal process.
No Christian is saved by any church or denomination. We are only saved, individually, by Christ. Not in groups and not because of “fidelity” to any denomination, much less by obedience to the Moral law, which the SDA incorrectly teach. So the main point of this article is theologically false, like most everything published by the SDA’s today.
1Cor. 12:27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.
Today, the Denomination does not have a clear, credible, or united theological package. The Adventist leaders are dishonest and disoriented, stubbornly refusing to admit their many mistakes, much less repenting and embracing necessary Gospel Reform. This is why they the church is self-destructing. There is no unity, much less Present Truth, nor do the leaders care to search for truth. People eventually understand this and leave. New people join, and then they also leave. This broken situation cannot be fixed with double-talk or denial, much less by pretending it is wrong to leave the church.
Let all understand; Jesus teaches that any fragmenting denomination is doomed if they fail to repent of their errors and unite on the genuine Gospel. This is what happened to the Jews and this is also why the SDA’s are self-destructing for all to see; they are fulfilling the words of Christ.
Luke 11:17 “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and a house divided against itself falls.
Fourth: While the author was correct to state that all should consider Christ’s view of the matter before leaving the denomination, such a point is not helpful to the main thesis. Why? Because Jesus would curse the SDA church today for their many false and confused doctrines, including the IJ, which is not the Pre-Advent Judgment as the Denomination has brainwashed and forced all to believe. (Shame on the SDA’s for embracing such error, when Dr. Ford and Cottrell presented the facts to them.)
In fact, the true PAJ is found in Rev 3: 14. Here Jesus condemns every church and denomination at the end of time, including the SDA’s. So Jesus does not support the SDA church as the leaders pretend, and this is reason enough for all to walk out the door, which is what is going to happen unless the SDA’s return to the honest pursuit of Gospel truth.
Rev.3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
Rev. 3:15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich,and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Fifth: There should be no doubt that the Denomination needs to repent for their many specific errors and false doctrines, including for what happened in 1888 and in 1980 at Glacier View. However, rather then acknowledge the need to repent and reform, the anonymous author shifts the blame for the present crisis away from the leaders and places it on the members. (This is how you know this article was nothing more than self-serving propaganda from the hierarchy.)
Such double-talk, blame, and diversion are typical of the hierarchy, and it only shows that the leaders are clueless about how to deal with the crisis that they created. They are the problem, not the members who are innocent victims, tired of being taken advantage of by the leaders.
Consequently, this article is dead wrong to conclude that “perhaps it is our own heart, and not the church or someone else’s strongly felt position, that needs to change?” Really? Why does it always have to be the member’s fault? No wonder MILLIONS have left. The Denomination is blind to the issues and problems that are destroying the Advent Movement. But they are blind on purpose, just like the Jews that also refused to honestly listen to Jesus. (See John 9: 39-41)
This is all wrong. MILLIONS have left the SDA’s because they REFUSE TO FULLY EMBRACE THE NEW COVENANT. This is the real problem; the Denomination teaches false doctrines, starting with the IJ, which can no longer be defended. Thus, it is the Denomination that must “zealously repent” and correct their doctrines. It is the church leaders that need to confess their doctrinal errors and repent. And if they don’t, everyone should leave, which is what is going to happen anyway if the status quo is not changed.
The fact that the church leaders still can’t stand the thought of being wrong is the very reason why people leave. People are fed up with all the denial, double-talk, censorship, and error from the SDA’s, so they leave. And it will only get worse as time goes on, not better. Adventism is dying right in front of our eyes, and yet, the leaders refuse to honestly deal with the issues, admit their mistakes, and make the necessary corrections. Sad.
See: Leaving the SDA Church
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=233
The Remnant Church is called, by Christ, in the real PAJ, to repent; not to pretend they have no error. Only when the SDA’s humble themselves and pay attention to what Jesus teaches, will this crisis be resolved. Until then, the Denomination will continue to self-destruct for all to see. They have no one to blame but themselves.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm
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Breaking Up With The Church & Censorship
http://www.adventistreview.org/141505-14
The above response to this Review article has been censored and removed, treated like worthless spam. This is the typical reaction from the leaders to anyone that offers correction, showing that they have not learned anything since Glacier View in 1980. They refused correction then, and they still think the same way today. Sad.
The SDA’s are so arrogant and corrupt that they refuse to admit they have any doctrinal mistakes that need correction. With such a delusional attitude, they especially hate to be reminded of their specific errors because it makes them appear more like the 1st century Jews that rejected Christ then a great Protestant Reform Movement.
The real takeaway is this: if anyone has serious doctrinal issues with the church; - go ahead, please break up and leave. Because this is a one-way relationship, the members do as they are told, believe as they are told, or they can leave. Much like in the 1950’s when few had any freedom or rights in society or the church.
As a result, MILLIONS have done just that; they are leaving by the truck loads, and it is only going to get worse, not better, because the younger demographics will not put up with these cultic games like past generations. So it is only a matter of time before there is a total collapse of the Denomination.
Here is the real problem: the SDA church is not, not, not, interested in Gospel Reform, or correction, in the slightest. It is their way or the highway, which is exactly how the Jewish leaders re-acted towards Christ and his apostles. The Adventists are making the same fatal mistake, for which they are paying a huge price.
In fact, the SDA’s are acting like the 1st century Jews that denied their Old Covenant doctrines needed any NC changes. They closed their eyes and ears to the teachings of Christ, sealing their sad fate and refusing Gospel Reform. The SDA’s have done the same thing, even as they pretend they have no error and need no correction. They are truly blind.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
Today, we know that over 10 MILLION baptized members have figured out that the legalistic SDA’s are blind to the Gospel, - thieves and robbers according to Christ. And the actual number of those Adventists who no longer support the church is much higher, probably close to 20 MILLION.
Why should anyone support such a dishonest, cultic, and controlling denomination? Why let anyone take away our Gospel right to free speech and communication about the teachings of Jesus? This is what cults do, not what Jesus teaches in the Gospels.
Let all understand that the SDA Hierarchy is anti-Christ, and so too the Review. They are enemies of Christ and his Gospel as certainly as were the 1st century Jews. Let all beware the SDA Pharisees.
Censorship at Spectrum
See: The Back Door Problem, Feb, 2014
http://spectrummagazine.org/article/col … or-problem
For those naïve enough to think that Spectrum is an open site for discussion within the Adventist Community, they are not. They are a propaganda machine for the Denomination, which is why they spend much of their time censoring and editing posts, trying to make the church look credible.
Like the Review, the same post was also censored, marked as “unapproved,” along with many others.
Spectrum said to Tom Norris: "We are unable to post your comment because you have been blocked by Spectrum Magazine."
Here is the reaction from our old friend Sirje:
Sirje said: Can someone please explain why most of the responses here, are flagged as inappropriate? I don't understand.
Tom said: The SDA’s are as dishonest and controlling as were the 1st century Jews that made war on the Gospel. They emulate the Pharisees in the Gospel Story, not Jesus. How many posts from Christ or his followers do you think the Jerusalem Internet would leave standing if there were such technology in the 1st century? NONE! They too would banish and censor any discussion of the Gospel or the teachings of Jesus.
Just think about it: if there were online discussion in the 1st century, Jesus words would be treated as worthless “spam.” Those who posted in support of Christ would have their computers destroyed, and be banished from going online. No free speech allowed, much less for the purpose of making any doctrinal corrections.
The SDA’s are perhaps the world’s greatest hypocrites. While they claim to love Jesus and follow him, they have no idea what that even means. They are anti-Christ and anti-Gospel, even anti-Free speech. How can this rebellious and confused denomination not self-destruct?
No wonder people are leaving the SDA church in huge numbers. How can they not? Today the world is communicating like never before in history. It is an impossible phenomenon to stop. But yet, the cultic SDA’s spend massive amounts of resources trying to censor, control, and manipulate their members to support false doctrine, as if this was the 1950’s.
Times have changed. Technology has changed. Censorship is no longer a viable tool for anyone. Whatever people want to say, good or bad, they are going to say it for all to hear, regardless of the futile games played by the SDA’s.
Christ, calls the Remnant Church, in the real PAJ, to repent; not to pretend they have no errors.
Only when the SDA’s humble themselves and pay attention to what Jesus teaches, will this crisis be resolved. Until then, the Denomination will continue to self-destruct for all to see. They have no one to blame but themselves.
At some point, a new Adventist Movement must go forward and embrace the Gospel with both hands. It is clear that the present leadership is incapable of comprehending or following the Gospel of Christ. Like the Jews, they refuse to believe the Gospel.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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